Third or Other Gender Butch

[Jett]

Third or Other Genders have existed in recorded history as long as woman and man. Genders which fall between the two more recognized and common genders, gender which is not simply one or the other but usually more apt to be felt as both. I'm not surprised to see a lot of butches who embrace their third gender, though third gender runs the gamut of sexes and sexual orientations, it seems only logical.

I think in life (and sometimes even B-F communities), we often experience a unique difficulty to find a place when third gender is not among the accepted "check one of the two boxes" ready made answers of society. Even internally our own grasp of gender growing up is a byproduct of that binary society so still for some it can take a longer time in understanding or acceptance of it... or even explaining oneself where everyone wants to know "are you he or she?" (I've just replied for years, pronouns don't squick me either way).

But anyway, one simple and also best descriptive and fav things I've heard is, "You have the expressive heart of a female, but instrumental mind of a male"... though it's clearly it's all coming from the mind, it feels right as I feel as both male and female within*.

Ok, as we know, gender is between the ears not the legs**... for myself I'm speaking of being both genders between the ears, as a person who is full of, accepts and embraces both. For all intents and purposes in life I'm just me. I don't wear Tee-shirts with third gender symbols nor am I involved in any big movements... I'm just not a big political person and honestly I never talk about this stuff real life and I'm not really into labels... but I'm curious about others who may feel similar to me.

With that, I hope to hear some others stories or thoughts on it.

Peace,
Metropolis

*To quell misunderstanding beforehand... I'm referring to mind here, not clothing etc. which for me I have only male clothing, mannerisms etc.

**Though gender is of the mind, it's expressed outwardly in clothing, mannerisms etc. and sometimes body modification, it's almost a rule that "out" Third gendered people tend to express gender consistently in the opposite clothing to birth sex and bodies may be modified to fall more in line with the dual nature of our minds... IE: binding without the desire to consistently to pass as male etc.

(I've also heard of femmes who feel other gendered, but as butches seem to be a specific subset of Third Gender with many commonalities I've put this in the Butch Zone but would enjoy seeing a thread explaining how those femmes may experience and express other genders.)

[DapperButch]

Hey, Met.

Third gendered/transgendered butch here, weighing in.

I don't have time to get into much at the moment, but I will be back to post.

I just wanted to acknowledge you and you beginning this thread. :thumbsup:

P.S. Actually, I just thought of a possible discussion. Is there a difference between a butch who defines as third gendered versus a butch who defines as transgender? Are they similar, yet different?

Are people speaking to one's sex (male/female) when they call themselves a TG Butch, yet speaking to gender (woman/man) when they call themselves a third gendered butch?

What about a genderqueer butch? Or is that just another term for thrid gendered or transgendered?

[DapperButch]

Ok, so I hit the submit button by mistake...

Here are my quick thoughts:

I am a third gendered butch because I am not a woman or a man (gender).

I define as a transgendered butch because I view my sex as somewhere between or both male and female. But, I still acknowledge my bio sex as female (if that makes any sense).

I do not define as genderqueer because the term has just never reasonated with me, plus I am not even clear on what is the accepted definition is of the term.

Before I was really involved in the online B/F communities, or learned much about gender through reading, I used the term "genderless" to describe myself (in my own head, to myself). I'm not sure what I think about that now.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts for now. I am looking forward to this thread.

[AtLast]

I think I fit somewhere in other , biologically, as a female-bodied butch. Which is comfortable for me. My gender remains female, however, I have a difficult time with the traditional binary as it is too constraining for everyone. 3rd-gendered is something I have to give a lot of credence to.

I think that my being lesbian might relate to my choosing to refer to myself as female in terms of gender (it is just an interwoven state of being for me). Been thinking a lot about this and just know that part of my identification as female has to do with my absolute connection to female to female bodied sexuality. No, these are not the same (gender/sexuality), but for me they are very personally interrelated.

Being a more masculine female and the processes and dynamics of being with another female (of the femme variety, which includes a range), is simply hot and satisfying, sexually and in everyday interactions of being relational. I love how my being a female-bodied butch is appreciated by a femme partner.

I absolutely support every personal distinction of gender (and queerness) that comes out of this community. Yanno... that diversity thang! And I so wish that gender fluidity and the multi-dimensional nature of both gender and sexuality would just become the norm!

Taking stock in cross-cultural perspectives of both gender and sexuality has been the most freeing experience for me as a butch and a human being. So much in US/Western thought (other than Native American explanations and spirituality) simply doesn't fit for me … and a whole hell of a lot of other people!

Finding peace, balance and harmony with all of this is paramount for me. Then, again, that is what I always seek in life.

[Jett]

Hey, Met.

Third gendered/transgendered butch here, weighing in.

I don't have time to get into much at the moment, but I will be back to post.

I just wanted to acknowledge you and you beginning this thread. :thumbsup:

P.S. Actually, I just thought of a possible discussion. Is there a difference between a butch who defines as third gendered versus a butch who defines as transgender? Are they similar, yet different?

Are people speaking to one's sex (male/female) when they call themselves a TG Butch, yet speaking to gender (woman/man) when they call themselves a third gendered butch?

What about a genderqueer butch? Or is that just another term for thrid gendered or transgendered?

Ok, so I hit the submit button by mistake...

Here are my quick thoughts:

I am a third gendered butch because I am not a woman or a man (gender).

I define as a transgendered butch because I view my sex as somewhere between or both male and female. But, I still acknowledge my bio sex as female (if that makes any sense).

I do not define as genderqueer because the term has just never reasonated with me, plus I am not even clear on what is the accepted definition is of the term.

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap... ;)

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.

Before I was really involved in the online B/F communities, or learned much about gender through reading, I used the term "genderless" to describe myself (in my own head, to myself). I'm not sure what I think about that now.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts for now. I am looking forward to this thread.


Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

[Jess]

Just my personal observations along my journey:


In the 80's, the big thing for "most" ( not all) lesbians/ queer women/ dykes was to be androgynous.

Main Entry: an·drog·y·nous
Pronunciation: \an-ˈdrä-jə-nəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin androgynus hermaphrodite, from Greek androgynos, from andr- + gynē woman — more at queen
Date: 1651
1 : having the characteristics or nature of both male and female
2 a : neither specifically feminine nor masculine <the androgynous pronoun them> b : suitable to or for either sex <androgynous clothing>
3 : having traditional male and female roles obscured or reversed <an androgynous marriage>
— an·drog·y·nous·ly adverb
— an·drog·y·ny \-nē\ noun


Then, it seemed a "reclaiming" of the Butch-femme dynamic surfaced in the mid to late 90's. Greatly visible at first in the Leather community(this was also about the same time BDSM enthusiasts became such a "trend" so it makes sense) , where Butch and Femme never really died out. Along with this resurfacing came drag kings as a phenom and the popularity of our b-f websites exploded.

Transsexual folks came out more and more gaining acceptance ( not always, of course but moreso than ever in the past) and the terms transgendered and genderqueer and genderfuct became hot words in our community.

In the last 20- 25 years along "our" evolution we have been knocking down walls so hard and fast it is hard for us to even keep up with our own sledgehammers.

We have had threads/ discussions/ arguments about inclusion, definition, gender theory, binary alignment, antiquated terminology. These discussions may go on forever, LOL! I see them as necessary for anyone going along a path that veers from any "norm" that society has perpetuated.

Most of my life I have felt other. There are times when I thought I would transition. I still am not completely comfortable in my own skin, however I am more aligned to the natural fluctuation of energies or mentalities that occur within me than I am in making a surgical/ chemical change. I am never faced with whom I think should be in my mirror. Sometimes it is distressing, sometimes it is kinda fun.Sometimes, I think I just spend way too much time thinking about it instead of just "being".

Good topic. I am more comfortable discussing this here than the "female/ woman identified butch" thread. I don't know why. This just seems a more natural discussion and for some reason less re-hashing.

A great many science fiction stories speak of a time when the human race becomes androgynous or even asexual. It is interesting to see the great number of folks speaking to feeling "other gendered".

Thanks Metropolis!

[Jett]

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

[Daywalker]

A quick note, as I subscribe to read more:
:glasses:

As far back as I can remember, I have always viewed my gender through
my mind and spirit...not through my body. For life moments when the physical
me is called up, such as intimacy...well, my 'pleasure zones' are where they
are (gawd I hope this is gonna make sense) kinda like a belly button. Some have
'inn-ees' and some have 'out-ees'. My 'zones' have been physically assigned
as an 'inn-ee', but still...I do not relate to being female...or male.
:sunglass:

Will I utilize these zones and not get uncomfortable? Yes. Because I still
do not connect with my physical being as a gender. This is not a denial,
this is not due to an adverse experience, this is not due to anything...other
than my mind and spirit being content, and it just feels as though this
has been my natural state of being, even as a child.
:cheesy:

My attraction and preference has always been a natural state for me
as well...in that it has only been for women. I am sure there are folks
who relate just as I do, that have a natural attraction for their opposite
sex. Another perspective that I was privy to growing up...that sexual
preference is not defined by gender identification.
:deepthoughts:

I'd like to read along and jump in here and there,
but of course...first I'd like to thank Met for starting this thread.

:koolaid:


:daywalker:

[DapperButch]

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I don't know if you are repeating yourself, but I know I said the same thing (so maybe I repeated you, first!)

Yes, I have always seen the MAIN definition of third gendered as a person who does not define as a man or as a woman...that is my understanding as to where the term came from/the purpose of the term.

[Jett]

I don't know if you are repeating yourself, but I know I said the same thing (so maybe I repeated you, first!)

Yes, I have always seen the MAIN definition of third gendered as a person who does not define as a man or as a woman...that is my understanding as to where the term came from/the purpose of the term.

Ha yep... you did. Anyway I guess in that it has a fairly distinct meaning, of course being relative to the individual how that plays out and specific details.

So I suppose in my own head (on whether it's TG or not) is that it depends on the person. Kind of like genderqueer, TG seems a fairly umbrella term.

I have identified as TG in the past, but I've found that peeps assume I want to be recognized as a man by doing so. So maybe the only reason I don't now is because Third Gender (or Other etc.) seems to be a clearer definition of the specific gender for me.

[DapperButch]

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".


Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.






I guess my thoughts on whether it's TG are, in a nutshell, that depends on the person. Kind of like genderqueer, TG seems a fairly umbrella term and depending on how one experiences third gender they may or may not feel the need to use it.

I have identified as TG in the past, but I've found that peeps assume I want to be recognized as a man by doing so. So maybe the only reason I don't now is because Third Gender (or Other etc.) seems to be a clearer definition of the specific gender for me.


Yes, I understand what you are saying when you say that using TG (TG Butch, I assume you meant, maybe?, not just TG?), creates a thinking in people that you see yourself as a man or maybe male. This has been my concern by using this label myself. People have moved away from the term transsexual it seems, and transgender is often used in place (even though the first defines a person as viewing themselves as the opposite sex, and the other has been defined as an umbrella term, which are two different things, obviously).

I use the TG Butch label b/c I guess I want to get across the "not male and not female"/"male and female" identity. Third gendered to me just means not a man and not a woman, so that does not seem to be enough (for me). Make sense?

I actually wrote on the dash site, maybe a couple of years ago, my frustration in there not being a term to describe my type of butch, as TG Butch was really misleading (due to how transgender is commonly assumed to mean transsexual nowadays), but since I have found nothing else, I have stuck with it.

Sorry if the above was confusing...I was just rambling out some thoughts, here...

Side note: Similarly, I use but, really don't like, the pronoun "hy". But since I am in the middle, "he", nor "she" fits, so I feel stuck with it! lol

[Gryph]

I go by two-spirit as a way of denoting my gender. I am the best and worst of both(in our binary world) in one body. Pronouns to me don't matter, I will and do answer to both he and she and not think anything of it, that is part of being two-spirit.

I came to the conclusion years ago that I kind of like this body and I have no need to bind or anything like that. Besides it would be a bit hard, my tits are rather ample, its a family trait. So I dress in male clothes, except for the sports bras that I wear for work and other then winter, I keep my hair fairly short. A quick look and I get tagged as a butch all the time, which is not a big deal for me.

[AtLast]

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female .... :dots:

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

[DapperButch]

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female .... :dots:

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

AtLast,

I can say that for me I am using the term TG to only refer to male/men/masculine because this thread is about the third gendered or other gendered butch and is not about transgenderism in general (or transgenderism at all in most of the posts I have seen).

[Darth Denkay]

Hey all,

So glad to see this thread started. It's 12:30 in the morning so I gotta get some sleep but will definitely be back. Really looking forward to what we can do here. Thanks Met!

[DapperButch]

Hey all,

So glad to see this thread started. It's 12:30 in the morning so I gotta get some sleep but will definitely be back. Really looking forward to what we can do here. Thanks Met!


Hey, Kayden!

Glad you will be joining the third/other gendered thread!

It is nice that a thread was started for this group of butches and/or for discussion around this type of butch!

[Daktari]

What a brilliant thread.

I identify with much that has already said by folks who can say it far more eloquently than I.

My mum used to tell me that from the age of 6yrs I was espousing that I wasn't a boy or a girl but something else entirely. In latter years upon discovering the bf community and a whole load of 'new labels' I appropriated the term 'genderqueer' for myself but it still doesn't sit quite right somehow.

[Dylan]

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female .... :dots:

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

I can see *how* TG *might* "get out into the male pile", but I don't think that's how it's used within the TG community as a whole

While general society *might* see it as a "well, if you're not woman than you're man" type o' deal, I know I personally don't use it that way.

One reason for my not using it that way is because it would automatically exclude femmes who ID as TG

I think in a strictly binary world, TG would probably be used as a "well if you're not woman then you're man" type of thing, but I think just about everyone on this site acknowledges the binary is bullshit.

In my world, TG isn't just about man/woman or male/female...it's about ANYONE who steps out of the binary. Most of the people I talk to who frequent TG conferences, conversations, meet ups, etc feel the same way.

Femme is/can be a gender just as much as butch (or any other gender)...to turn TG into binary excludes shit-tons (that's Dylan-metric) of people from the TG movement, and turns it into a trans-sexed issue. It also asks people to once again conform to binary ideas...which is exactly what many TG people refuse to do in the first place.


Dylan

[Jett]

Yes, I understand what you are saying when you say that using TG (TG Butch, I assume you meant, maybe?, not just TG?), creates a thinking in people that you see yourself as a man or maybe male. This has been my concern by using this label myself. People have moved away from the term transsexual it seems, and transgender is often used in place (even though the first defines a person as viewing themselves as the opposite sex, and the other has been defined as an umbrella term, which are two different things, obviously).

I use the TG Butch label b/c I guess I want to get across the "not male and not female"/"male and female" identity. Third gendered to me just means not a man and not a woman, so that does not seem to be enough (for me). Make sense?

I actually wrote on the dash site, maybe a couple of years ago, my frustration in there not being a term to describe my type of butch, as TG Butch was really misleading (due to how transgender is commonly assumed to mean transsexual nowadays), but since I have found nothing else, I have stuck with it.

Sorry if the above was confusing...I was just rambling out some thoughts, here...

Side note: Similarly, I use but, really don't like, the pronoun "hy". But since I am in the middle, "he", nor "she" fits, so I feel stuck with it! lol

Yep, I meant TG in the butch context...

3rd Gender is vague, yep same difficulties there myself. I had a thread mid last year and I must have wrote a novelette and was never happy with the terms used to describe it though I probably used 10 at least... lol.

Pretty much I'm using 3G here because it's a at least close descriptor at a "glance" yet open for many to join the convo. It's kind of funny though b/c I'm wayyyyy not into labeling myself... and do love "just being". Yet, I think just as women and men have those designations of gender as an internal "I'm a", or just a "knowing" as a given, - one of a different gender simply desires to name that too, that strong essence that drives so much of who we are as humans.

That in which most others just have a "place" and probably take for granted how important being recognized in that is, even if just in oneself.

Ok, now I may be rambling a bit myself...

Anyway, I think one of the problems for me as "other" is looking for a word that really narrows it, but I'm thinking even for those who actually are "woman" or "man" those words aren't fully telling. So I think for myself something fairly open like GQ probably is the most fitting without needing to get specific.

*An aside for those wincing as I'm sure it sometimes sounds a lot like conflating sex and gender in the thread (I'm wincing a bit too). But it's not really, just hard with the perimeters of a binary language (and I would say there's is a gender and mental sex connect just no rule). Maybe the best way to put it (for myself) is in relating yes, to some TG's who feel as not as a man- yet male... it's very similar for me, not a woman, not a man- yet male/female.*

Oh and welcome to everybody who's joined the conversation *thumbs up*

Metropolis

[Jett]

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female .... :dots:

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

Yeah I'm not quite getting this.

Because of "butch" direction of this thread TG is being used in that masculine context more often sure... in this conversation.

That was in no way represents TG as a whole.

When I said I don't use it because it tends to make some believe I feel male, that was meant in a butch related context only, that my being known as female bodied peeps assume when I label TG that I'm saying I'm male minded.

If I was male bodied and said it some peeps would automatically think I was saying I was female minded.

That's the prob for me... peeps wrapped up in an either or binary... not with the term TG... which is a non binary term.

[Words]

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

The application form for the first full-time job for which B. applied here in the UK had three options for gender: male, female, and transgendered. W/we thought it was wonderful for the very same reason you've mentioned above.

Great thread:)

Words

[AtLast]

I can see *how* TG *might* "get out into the male pile", but I don't think that's how it's used within the TG community as a whole

While general society *might* see it as a "well, if you're not woman than you're man" type o' deal, I know I personally don't use it that way.

One reason for my not using it that way is because it would automatically exclude femmes who ID as TG

I think in a strictly binary world, TG would probably be used as a "well if you're not woman then you're man" type of thing, but I think just about everyone on this site acknowledges the binary is bullshit.

In my world, TG isn't just about man/woman or male/female...it's about ANYONE who steps out of the binary. Most of the people I talk to who frequent TG conferences, conversations, meet ups, etc feel the same way.

Femme is/can be a gender just as much as butch (or any other gender)...to turn TG into binary excludes shit-tons (that's Dylan-metric) of people from the TG movement, and turns it into a trans-sexed issue. It also asks people to once again conform to binary ideas...which is exactly what many TG people refuse to do in the first place.

Dylan

AtLast,

I can say that for me I am using the term TG to only refer to male/men/masculine because this thread is about the third gendered or other gendered butch and is not about transgenderism in general (or transgenderism at all in most of the posts I have seen).

Dapper & Dylan and Met:

I see where all of you are coming from. Ah, I like the shit-tons metric!

I have to say that in real time, I also run into the TG as male only phenomenon too. But, this seems to be more within the very narrow lesbian community that I think, does continue to fight inclusion (and support) of transgendered people. They tend to only see this in terms of male transition. God, I want to slap them ('cause, yanno, MtF's aren't really women like us)!

My main reason for bringing this up has more to do with a couple of MtF's (that claim femme) I know as well as an intergendered cousin that is female (what she claimed). And my feelings about female devaluation.

But, yes, I see that the thread is addressing butch phenomena.

Also, it kind of sux that many butches that view themselves as other or 3rd-gendered, feel as they are posting here in terms of the assumptions that get made right here in our own community.

I think TG as an umbrella term is what gets this all confused... as well as just a lack of knowledge about gender in general. I know, I have to continually take a look at the literature.

Yes.... we end up back in the binary and this is crazy-making!! And frustrating.

[Apocalipstic]

Great thread Met!

I do find it interesting that these discussions always seem to be Butch-Masculine...of course understanding that you are Butch, so you would see things from that perspective...and not to in any way take away from the things you deal with day to day....

However,

I do wonder if there are any other Femmes who in their heads id as masculine in some ways no matter how we might look on the outside.

There are parts of me that are very masculine (in my head and behavior) and some parts (mostly appearance) that are feminine. I have said before that if I were to transition I would look like Truman Capote, Laugh. Not that I want to transition, but I can't say that it has never crossed my mind.

Is this too much of a derail?

[Dylan]

Dapper & Dylan and Met:

I see where all of you are coming from. Ah, I like the shit-tons metric!

I have to say that in real time, I also run into the TG as male only phenomenon too. But, this seems to be more within the very narrow lesbian community that I think, does continue to fight inclusion (and support) of transgendered people. They tend to only see this in terms of male transition. God, I want to slap them ('cause, yanno, MtF's aren't really women like us)!

My main reason for bringing this up has more to do with a couple of MtF's (that claim femme) I know as well as an intergendered cousin that is female (what she claimed). And my feelings about female devaluation.

But, yes, I see that the thread is addressing butch phenomena.

Also, it kind of sux that many butches that view themselves as other or 3rd-gendered, feel as they are posting here in terms of the assumptions that get made right here in our own community.

I think TG as an umbrella term is what gets this all confused... as well as just a lack of knowledge about gender in general. I know, I have to continually take a look at the literature.

Yes.... we end up back in the binary and this is crazy-making!! And frustrating.

I have a number of very close femme friends who ID as cis-female, but who consider their gender femme...they consider themselves transgender, and have a helluva time (even in and sometimes mostly in queer space) fighting for their space in the TG world.

I truly believe they have a harder time than butches explaining their gender, because it's always assumed they mean they're trans-sexed as opposed to genderly outside the binary. Most people can't fathom how femme is a gender when you ID as cis-female, and your gender presentation falls in line with stereotypical ideas of femininity (woman), etc. I think femmes are continually left out of this conversation or dismissed, because their gender doesn't necessarily fall in line with limited binary thinking...i.e. femme isn't seen as any type of 'crossing over' or any other limited definition most people use to define 'transgender'. It's commonly (and erroneously) just assumed that 'femme' falls in line with cultural norms of woman/female/femininity, so "what? What's the big deal? There's no struggle...only butches 'struggle'." Which I then think leads back to the idea that in order to 'qualify' as transgender, One has to want 'the opposite'...which then leads back to binary thinking...which then leads back to stereotypes...which then leads back to Butches Want To Be Men Syndrome and Femmes' Invisibility.

I agree it's incredibly frustrating...it's even more ridiculously frustrating when it happens in queer space among people who claim to *know better* than to fall for binary thinking

I think the term transgender was *once* used as a term primarily for trans-sexed individuals, however, I really see a pulling away from this thinking. I mean, in some conversations I see transgender and transsexed used interchangeably, but in real time conversations, I see a big pulling away from this interchangeability. I see a lot of pulling away in some online communities also. Basically, I see the most interchangeability in conversations had among completely clueless straight people or in very basic definitions.

My real time groups of transgendered friends/acquaintances include butches, femmes, folks on hormones who just want to present differently (but who have no intention of changing their sex), third genders, genderfucts, genderqueers, pangender, zies, two-sprits, and everything in between.


Avoiding Work,
Dylan

[Dylan]

The application form for the first full-time job for which B. applied here in the UK had three options for gender: male, female, and transgendered. W/we thought it was wonderful for the very same reason you've mentioned above.

Great thread:)

Words

I recently went to The Lady Doctor, and on their application, they also had a box for "Trans"

I was both relieved and dismayed at the same time. I was relieved (happy actually) to see the box, however, I was unable to actually mark the box, because trans-people aren't covered by the county insurance I was using to have this particular procedure (which, btw, had nothing to do with any trans-related issues). Hence, had I actually checked the box, I wouldn't have been covered...nor could I GET covered again, because it would have been part of my 'permanent record'.

So, while I'm glad people are actually becoming more aware...trans-folks still have to be incredibly cautious.


Dylan
But that's a whole 'nother conversation.

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks for your post Dylan and for answerng my question in addition to At Lasts!

So yes there are other Femme who ID as GenderQueer or who stuggle with the pervasive thought that only butches and FtM's suffer with gender identity.

Relived,

Jen

PS. That sucks that if you are Trans you can't use county insurance. Impressed that your county has insurance at all, but sad that for politics sake, there had to be a whole group of people left out....As usual.

[AtLast]

I recently went to The Lady Doctor, and on their application, they also had a box for "Trans"

I was both relieved and dismayed at the same time. I was relieved (happy actually) to see the box, however, I was unable to actually mark the box, because trans-people aren't covered by the county insurance I was using to have this particular procedure (which, btw, had nothing to do with any trans-related issues). Hence, had I actually checked the box, I wouldn't have been covered...nor could I GET covered again, because it would have been part of my 'permanent record'.

So, while I'm glad people are actually becoming more aware...trans-folks still have to be incredibly cautious.


Dylan
But that's a whole 'nother conversation.


Seems like a trick question to me!

I am glad too, that your county has something to offer TG people, but, ugh... thinking how many TG people could check the trans box not knowing these consequences given how confusing program small print can be!

I know I am always happy to see trans being included for gender on apps, etc., but here we have the ultimate catch-22. Also, I want a box for other!

[Jett]

Third or Other Genders have existed in recorded history as long as woman and man. Genders which fall between the two more recognized and common genders, gender which is not simply one or the other but usually more apt to be felt as both. I'm not surprised to see a lot of butches who embrace their third gender, though third gender runs the gamut of sexes and sexual orientations, it seems only logical.

I think in life (and sometimes even B-F communities), we often experience a unique difficulty to find a place when third gender is not among the accepted "check one of the two boxes" ready made answers of society. Even internally our own grasp of gender growing up is a byproduct of that binary society so still for some it can take a longer time in understanding or acceptance of it... or even explaining oneself where everyone wants to know "are you he or she?" (I've just replied for years, pronouns don't squick me either way).

But anyway, one simple and also best descriptive and fav things I've heard is, "You have the expressive heart of a female, but instrumental mind of a male"... though it's clearly it's all coming from the mind, it feels right as I feel as both male and female within*.

Ok, as we know, gender is between the ears not the legs**... for myself I'm speaking of being both genders between the ears, as a person who is full of, accepts and embraces both. For all intents and purposes in life I'm just me. I don't wear Tee-shirts with third gender symbols nor am I involved in any big movements... I'm just not a big political person and honestly I never talk about this stuff real life and I'm not really into labels... but I'm curious about others who may feel similar to me.

With that, I hope to hear some others stories or thoughts on it.

Peace,
Metropolis

*To quell misunderstanding beforehand... I'm referring to mind here, not clothing etc. which for me I have only male clothing, mannerisms etc.

**Though gender is of the mind, it's expressed outwardly in clothing, mannerisms etc. and sometimes body modification, it's almost a rule that "out" Third gendered people tend to express gender consistently in the opposite clothing to birth sex and bodies may be modified to fall more in line with the dual nature of our minds... IE: binding without the desire to consistently to pass as male etc.

(I've also heard of femmes who feel other gendered, but as butches seem to be a specific subset of Third Gender with many commonalities I've put this in the Butch Zone but would enjoy seeing a thread explaining how those femmes may experience and express other genders.)

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

[Apocalipstic]

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

Thank you! My eyes, I tell ya. I can see it with my...cough...bifocals, but did not have them on and thought that part was your sig line.

Yeay! Validation.

May start another thread....another day when my brain is working better. :)

[Jett]

Ok... I think I need to get rid of some well worn baggage and I'm just going to dump it here apparently.

For years I identified outwardly as Female ID Butch, and though I tried to be this I always had a wince reaction when I said it... and looking back in that feeling I was naggingly compelled every time (and I did 99% of the time) to follow with a "just to add" disclaimer that to me it only meant "being female bodied" (seriously I bet I've said that 100 times).

The few times I tried to identify with being a "woman" the wince was tripled, and again pretty much every time came with even longer disclaimers like "to me it means adult female"... "it doesn't mean... blah blah blah".... never felt like enough disclaimers, and definitely contradicting my whole point with them anyway I'm sure.

I knew I was doing it and knew it felt wrong, but really I wouldn't let go of it (the "identity"). Though through the years I'd many times discussed being GQ/TG/3G whatever, when I finally did start a thread like a year ago about not being of a binary gender and being a 3rdG and not ID'ing as female it felt like peaceful truth, even know it felt like having to suck up everything I ever said about my "ID" it didn't matter because it was right.

I did get fairly "worked over" by several friends privately who felt I wasn't seeing all a woman could be, but I was seeing that concept... just for me it wasn't applicable and really had ironically been a stumbling block in the first place. Hell it was what I kept trying to tell myself for years... "Oh you're just having trouble seeing all you can be as a woman/female" and using that as an excuse for not feeling like one, and kept me from having to face my own nagging doubts (maybe internal transphobia).

And... a while after some more internal stubbornness and bullshittery to myself started me slowly back-peddling again away from 3rdG/etc... stupid yep... really I don't know why but it had been a struggle for me to absorb.

Then I kind of got knocked into stopping the bullshitting myself. In starting a thread for Female and Women Butches, pushing OP submit button and immediately it just felt like all those "winces" swelled up ten times their size and punched me in the gut. And every post after, though I believed in "the cause" it felt like posing. Just like the veneer got too heavy and dropped... hell I had trouble sleeping. It wasn't any sudden revelation but more an internal "jeezus cripes just stop fucking kidding yourself". So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.

I've always been really proud of who I am as a person in this context, and I still am... I'm the exact same person... just minus the veneer, and actually living my life.

Ok... back to the regularly scheduled program.

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

[Corkey]

If someone drops being your friend because you speak up about who you are, they weren't your friend to begin with. YOU I will always call friend, and I'd be proud to say I got yer back any day of the week, NO matter how you identify.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I know this is going to sound a bit wierd to others but it's not to me...

I've always said that lots of people out there have more than one gender. I'm one of those. And one of my genders just don't fit in "woman" - it fits in feminine. It's non-female, non-male, but feminine. Sometimes when I get very body disphoric, I have trouble understanding why I don't fit into my own body the way I feel I should.

It used to be horrific at times. Now just slightly off-putting and annoying.

I wouldn't call it a third gender. It's it's own thing and plenty of people feel that way sometimes. Frankly, half the planet has probably felt that wierd seperation of self from body. in a "this isn't quite me" way.

Perhaps it's because of disociating, perhaps it's because of body dysmorphia from eating disorders once out of control. Who knows. Doesn't matter much. I don't hate my body, I actually quite like it - it's just sometimes isn't speaking the same language as me.

however, to the mainstream, out there, my femininity and my woman's body are "aligned" so it mostly doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Meh. Fine, I'm the only one that really needs to get it.

But I'm not butch so this doesn't quite fit in here. But thought I'd just toss something of my own in anyway.

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

[Daywalker]

Thanks for the raw n honest post Met.

What you have described is like being caught in a color wheel.

Sometimes folks are trying to turn it to the color they
want for you, and it gets stuck...so you end up having
to push harder to get it to move forward again
until it lands on Your color.
:LGBTQFlag:

Heh, I think mine got stuck on Psychedelic...and I like it there.
:smokejoint:

Either way, strength can only be measured from the inside out.
Your inner strength stood the test of your own transformation.
:weightlifter:

Amen n Pass the Koolaid

:daywalker:

:daywalker:

[DapperButch]

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

I second that!

[DapperButch]

[quote=Metropolis;68756]


So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.


Losing friends over it is just damn crazy. You know, when you wrote that post I thought to myself, that took some serious guts. And I also wondered if you would get any flack about it, but I never imagined that you would lose friends over it. That is not who a friend is, Met. Corkey is right. A simple concept, but so true. A friend accepts us for who we are, not who they want or need us to be. I would think that this would be something that all of us queers would have learned by now. I am sorry this happened to you.


However, at the same time, maybe they just need to take a step back and then will come forward again (you indicated that it wasn't really a confrontation, just "not talking"...maybe avoidance of conversation)? Dunno. Just an additional thought...

[AtLast]

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

Met:

I'm trying to get one or either of my friends to sart a thread on the other-gendered femme. Both felt so burned on the dist site that they are just not feeling comfortable to do so .... yet! I don't feel very well-read or knowledgeable to start one and I also feel like it just isn't my place to.

Your bring up the fact that other-genderism, plus has been a part of history for eons is so much of what has helped me in learning about gender today. Native North American (as well as South Native American take on gender (especially 2-Spirit) has given me a sort of peaceful sense about gender - even in the midst of so much friction that I think our community has gone through. Even with having a couple of very long-time friends from childhood (yikes, back to the 1950's) and an intergendered cousin (in her 70's, but we have only recently re-connected due to nut-so-way-cucko family issues), the study of gender theory and and application to so much of what I feel about myself and other people remains stiffled sometimes.

As I've said before, I feel fortunate to have gender issues be part of my lifetime. Guess its about un-locking doors. Especially legal protection doors. And just not being stuck in a box that I think a lot of us (butch, femme, TG, everyone have been held back within. As I watch my 2 grand daughters grow-up, I am seeing that they are not stuck in the same box and it makes me very happy! The younger one seems like a budding other-female to me, or maybe another form of evolving gender identities. Mainly, I want her and all kids to not go through what a hell of a lot of people here have. It helps too that she doesn't live in a place as open as I do because maybe things are changing outside of our more urban and open locations!One can only hope!

[AtLast]

[quote=Metropolis;68756]


So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.


Losing friends over it is just damn crazy. You know, when you wrote that post I thought to myself, that took some serious guts. And I also wondered if you would get any flack about it, but I never imagined that you would lose friends over it. That is not who a friend is, Met. Corkey is right. A simple concept, but so true. A friend accepts us for who we are, not who they want or need us to be. I would think that this would be something that all of us queers would have learned by now. I am sorry this happened to you.


However, at the same time, maybe they just need to take a step back and then will come forward again (you indicated that it wasn't really a confrontation, just "not talking"...maybe avoidance of conversation)? Dunno. Just an additional thought...

Actually, I don't think you should get flack either! Loss of friendship makes me deeply sad because a true friend recognizes when someone is speaking their truth and respects this even if they disagree.

Yes, Dapper, it hurts more when it comes from our own space.. hurts terribly.

Personally, Met, you RAWK! You are willing to take yourself to task with things that are just not easy and be open about it. Looks like good character to me!

[AtLast]

Ok... I think I need to get rid of some well worn baggage and I'm just going to dump it here apparently.

For years I identified outwardly as Female ID Butch, and though I tried to be this I always had a wince reaction when I said it... and looking back in that feeling I was naggingly compelled every time (and I did 99% of the time) to follow with a "just to add" disclaimer that to me it only meant "being female bodied" (seriously I bet I've said that 100 times).

The few times I tried to identify with being a "woman" the wince was tripled, and again pretty much every time came with even longer disclaimers like "to me it means adult female"... "it doesn't mean... blah blah blah".... never felt like enough disclaimers, and definitely contradicting my whole point with them anyway I'm sure.

I knew I was doing it and knew it felt wrong, but really I wouldn't let go of it (the "identity"). Though through the years I'd many times discussed being GQ/TG/3G whatever, when I finally did start a thread like a year ago about not being of a binary gender and being a 3rdG and not ID'ing as female it felt like peaceful truth, even know it felt like having to suck up everything I ever said about my "ID" it didn't matter because it was right.

I did get fairly "worked over" by several friends privately who felt I wasn't seeing all a woman could be, but I was seeing that concept... just for me it wasn't applicable and really had ironically been a stumbling block in the first place. Hell it was what I kept trying to tell myself for years... "Oh you're just having trouble seeing all you can be as a woman/female" and using that as an excuse for not feeling like one, and kept me from having to face my own nagging doubts (maybe internal transphobia).

And... a while after some more internal stubbornness and bullshittery to myself started me slowly back-peddling again away from 3rdG/etc... stupid yep... really I don't know why but it had been a struggle for me to absorb.

Then I kind of got knocked into stopping the bullshitting myself. In starting a thread for Female and Women Butches, pushing OP submit button and immediately it just felt like all those "winces" swelled up ten times their size and punched me in the gut. And every post after, though I believed in "the cause" it felt like posing. Just like the veneer got too heavy and dropped... hell I had trouble sleeping. It wasn't any sudden revelation but more an internal "jeezus cripes just stop fucking kidding yourself". So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.

I've always been really proud of who I am as a person in this context, and I still am... I'm the exact same person... just minus the veneer, and actually living my life.

Ok... back to the regularly scheduled program.

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.


Damned if we do and damned if we don't! Oh yes, those winces, etc. And then there are the fence-sitting digs. The problem is that any kind of a fence or blockade to one's gender identity is what is really wrong. And then there is that line drawn in the sand.. and the silence from those that just can't accept that for some of us, none of this is clear-cut and I can't imagine not taking a look at male vs masculine or female vs feminine as well as TG vs 3G, Pan-genderism, etc. and female or male as other or to be determined (theory evolves).. And the core problem remains with the traditional constructs of the binary!! The constructs are the problem, not the terms.

Please just live your life without that damn veneer!

[Jett]

Yeah I think there was a bit of shell shock going around but for the most part it seems it's all good now I think.

I'm pretty occupied today (sick kit kat and a deadline on some works) but I just wanted to get at least make sure I got that in.

BBL
Metropolis

[Greyson]

Met, for a few years now I have been reading many of your posts. I am always drawn in by your words and thoughts.

I too have struggled internally with very similar feelings and thoughts. The struggle really heated up when I made the decision to transition. I do feel more at peace now but I wince each time I correct people to call me "He." It's true, I do prefer He when given the only binary option of he or she. However, I am neither.

For me when I state I am a Transman or a Transmasculine Butch it more clearly says who I believe myself to be. Thanks for keeping this discussion going and doing it with authenticity, patience and vulnerability.

[Toughy]

Met my friend.........

fuck 'em ........

be who you are.....we all have many twists and turns as we walk in this world.......the good and the painful........I figure we learn from everything that happens......change really is not a bad thing........I would much rather be a person who is grows than a person who never grows.

[alex k]

Please forgive me if i shouldnt be in this thread and feel free to move me along. I am in the process of atarting transition because i feel i don.t totally belong in the female gender. That being said i'm not 100% sure i belong in the male either. I'm probably 70/30 but its just enough to feel uncomfortable as a female. Saying that all my clothes etc and outward display is male. Maybe if gender fluid or third gender was more accepted the way bi sexual has come to be then i wouldnt feel the need to choose. But right now i do. Maybe after transition the odds will be down to 90/10 but think i will always be a part of both. And i'm hoping my psych doesnt read this- there goes my chances of surgery! :pile:

[daisyfm]

Good thread. I understand what is talked about here.
I would also like to say something that gets me in trouble a lot, but I truly think is important to mention. I think femme is a gender as well..maybe a fourth gender or a third alongside butch, I don't know.
I don't feel I am just a woman, or just a lesbian, I am a femme and this gender of mine does say a lot about me. I hope others feel the same way.

[Bit]

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

It makes sense to me. Thank you for mentioning it.

however, to the mainstream, out there, my femininity and my woman's body are "aligned" so it mostly doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Meh. Fine, I'm the only one that really needs to get it.

But I'm not butch so this doesn't quite fit in here. But thought I'd just toss something of my own in anyway.

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

You know, some parts of your experience don't resonate with me--for instance, the part about experiencing feminine as something "other" which is not related to gender, or your body speaking a different language than you do--but then some parts of it resonate SO strongly!! And I just absolutely love your last paragraph. Like parallel bicycles, that's a wonderful metaphor.

Other people do think I'm aligned, gender and body, and it makes my gender invisible to them. My gender is Femme. It is not the same gender as Woman, which is what people assume. Over the years I've gotten so much resistance and so much confusion that I've just given up and for the sake of having coherent conversations, I've starting referring to myself as a woman again... but my gender is Femme.

[AtLast]

I know several butches that identify Butch as their gender. So, why not Femme as gender? And why can't this also be 3rd-Gendered, or part of the other gender modalities that are being brought out??

Thinking that Dylan's earlier post about TG women/femmes resonates here, especially when someone feels they might get flack for it.

[Gryph]

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.



Yep, makes lots of sense to me.
I do understand the internal fighting of am I male or am I female. When I was 13 I wanted to be a boy, because of a crush I had on an older girl.
Fast forward to High School and the uncomfortable feeling I had in trying to play girl, even though I was one of the rough neck kids...tackle frisbee comes to mind. Having a boyfriend, because all the females of that time had boyfriends. Even if they really didn't want them.
Until I came out at age 30, I was still not femme even though I had stopped thinking of transitioning, I really didn't want the man body either.
It took me several years after that to figure out that I'm just fine in a female body and being the weird, cool kid, who can work and do just as much as most males.

*posting when tired is a dangerous thing. Hope this makes some semblance of sense*

[BullDog]

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

[DapperButch]

Please forgive me if i shouldnt be in this thread and feel free to move me along. I am in the process of atarting transition because i feel i don.t totally belong in the female gender. That being said i'm not 100% sure i belong in the male either. I'm probably 70/30 but its just enough to feel uncomfortable as a female. Saying that all my clothes etc and outward display is male. Maybe if gender fluid or third gender was more accepted the way bi sexual has come to be then i wouldnt feel the need to choose. But right now i do. Maybe after transition the odds will be down to 90/10 but think i will always be a part of both. And i'm hoping my psych doesnt read this- there goes my chances of surgery! :pile:


Hi, Alex K.

Welcome to the thread! If you want to be here to talk about the "third gendered" or "other gendered" butch, than you belong here!

There are lots of guys that transition in some way physically or take T and still don't define as male. Sometimes people just want their bodies to match their mind, but that doesn't mean male or female or man or woman, necessarily.

[Jett]

Met, for a few years now I have been reading many of your posts. I am always drawn in by your words and thoughts.

I too have struggled internally with very similar feelings and thoughts. The struggle really heated up when I made the decision to transition. I do feel more at peace now but I wince each time I correct people to call me "He." It's true, I do prefer He when given the only binary option of he or she. However, I am neither.

For me when I state I am a Transman or a Transmasculine Butch it more clearly says who I believe myself to be. Thanks for keeping this discussion going and doing it with authenticity, patience and vulnerability.

I can say the same thing reading your thoughts over the years Greyson, and I'm glad you chimed in here.

Definitely hear you on the pronouns too, I've used Hy Hys Hym online for many years trying to at least indicate that "middle" feeling, but really don't get worked up over other pronouns.

My lady always called me "she" when we first met, but now she alternates them though I've never requested her to use any in particular, seems they just pop out back and forth at random (at first she said she surprised herself in doing so). It doesn't bother me, somehow seems like a kind of odd subconscious acknowledgment that she does see that genderqueer-ness in me.

Metro

[AtLast]

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

It doesn't for me either, which is something I treasure. I also know that part of why I feel this way is because of living in a time when gender dynamics have opened-up and there is a place of comfort for me to have what is masculine and remain female and a woman. I accept the 3rdG and just feeling like a Female-Other. I guess it is elastic for me and freeing to have this mix. I already discussed the fusion in all of this for me with my lesbian sexuality, it really is about woman to woman for me. There is a spiritual balance for me as well and a connection to the archtypal woman, or The Great Mother that simply remders me female.

I do prefer being referred to she, her as far as pronouns, but it is not as big of a deal as it used to be. Again, I believe, due to the multi-facets of gender as we have come to know today. Not something I get angry about because I know I present as both masculine and feminine. Although, as the years have passed, my exterior seems more masculine.. yanno, menopause! Although, my body has always been more of what we traditionally consider masculine.

I just like my body as it is and am comfortable in it. But, I certainly get the struggles that other butches have with this. And I certainly know butches that deal with these issues in a multitude of ways.

I also recognize Femme as a gender as well as Butch (although not for myself).

It feels like that for most of us in this discussion that the traditional binary of male and female is the culprit. But, I feel that these have been expanded and do not remain as they were. Plus, other gender identifications are available to us all.

[Jess]

Please forgive me if i shouldnt be in this thread and feel free to move me along. I am in the process of atarting transition because i feel i don.t totally belong in the female gender. That being said i'm not 100% sure i belong in the male either. I'm probably 70/30 but its just enough to feel uncomfortable as a female. Saying that all my clothes etc and outward display is male. Maybe if gender fluid or third gender was more accepted the way bi sexual has come to be then i wouldnt feel the need to choose. But right now i do. Maybe after transition the odds will be down to 90/10 but think i will always be a part of both. And i'm hoping my psych doesnt read this- there goes my chances of surgery!


Hey alex,

Perhaps you may want to try asking questions and discussing any concerns you may have with folks on the trans threads. This is not to say you are not welcome here because you are more than welcome, but it concerns me that you are talking about transitioning before you are really sure that is what you want to do.

It may be a big help for you to talk to some of the guys who have been through and are going through that huge process before just jumping into it because being a female doesn't feel quite right to you at this moment. If being a man doesn't feel right either, perhaps you want to discuss it more before taking drastic steps.

I hope this finds you doing well! Keep talking about it!


Sorry, I just realized I quoted Dapper instead of alex and I'm not sure how to fix that to show alex's post.

[Jett]

....snip....

Sorry, I just realized I quoted Dapper instead of alex and I'm not sure how to fix that to show alex's post.

Fixed

Metro

[imperfect_cupcake]

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

I was kinda waiting for someone to point that out for them as well. So thank you.

Inks see it the same way. sometimes one her genders gets in an argument with her *body* but never gets in an argument with her other gender. I expereince that. The body that goes with my femme gender it a bit off the mark. But that may be my own baggage with my own conceptions of masculine (for lack of a better word. there is no word for it and that one is a sucky second to what I mean) femininity - perhaps androgenised hyper-femininity? Nevermind I can't explain it. Anyway, inks has a good friendship between her two genders. Maybe one rolls it's eyes a bit at the other on occation but that's about it.

but for both of us, we do have problems with the body matching up to the brain self-picture on occation, but it's not about genders not aligning with each other. I think anyones mulitplicity of gender can have a fine team action going on, rather than polerised bad marriages. Meaning... sorry... it doesn't *have* to be opposites nor does it *have* to be intrusive and cross purposes with each other.

I do get that for some it is. I'm not saying they need to "fly right, jack and pull up your boots straps." all I mean is, more than one gender doesn't mean an internal dogfight *has* to be the result.

[AtLast]

Something that keeps coming up for me is that as a child (born in 1951), I had two friends (girls) that later transitioned into men (their identification). We grew up in a small town and to be honest, the term lesbian wasn't even part of the vocabulary there!

What has always struck me is that both of these friends at a very young age, said they felt they had the body of a female and the spirit of a male. Later as adolescents, it was body of a woman and spirit of a man. This is a phrase very common to transpeople and I believe throughout all of the levels of gender we are discussing.

This always fit for me in terms of the mind-body-spirit paradigm that just is a balancing force for me. Early in life this was simply an internal connection and place of balance and peace. Later, as science progressed in gender theory, and I was exposed to the world and education more, this became a more viable explanation for what these friends felt and struggled with. It also allowed me to ponder my own internal questions about being a masculine woman as well as dealing with my sexuality.

Sometimes when I have conversations with much younger people around all of this, I am so amazed at how far this has all come in my lifetime. Not everyone has the same three dimensional paradigm need for congruency. But, this certainly helped me understand my childhood friend's struggles and need to find their own harmony.

I do think, however, that transitioning without really investigating its many facets and risks (there are some) can be hurtful. Generalized oversimplification of this process is dangerous. I do see (and have experienced) a form of pressure within the B-F community to transition. It has become a cultural phenomenon, I believe, with a sub-culture concerning butches. There is much positive in this and there exists some negative as well in terms of really allowing a person to be who they are (has to go both ways). And as HoneyBarbara has pointed out in many posts, there exists a differences in US butches around this and other countries.

There are a whole lot of us that embrace being female-bodied and butch along with being of another gender that live in harmony and wouldn’t have it any other way. Because it is simply who we are.

[Jett]

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

You're right, and your identifying with being a woman I don't feel is has any impact on your masculinity or butch-ness either.

Just as my not being woman gendered but GQ/3rd isn't dependent on my being butch or my masculinity (or vice versa). GQ/TG/3rdG gender people have all different kinds of incarnations in life, different identities, sexes and sexual orientations.

Glad you kind of sideways pointed out something I wanted to say, in that the way I experience my gender it isn't born of or reliant on any comparison to my being Butch or masculinity...

[BullDog]

You're right, and your identifying with being a woman I don't feel is has any impact on your masculinity or butch-ness either.

Just as my not being woman gendered but GQ/3rd isn't dependent on my being butch or my masculinity (or vice versa). GQ/TG/3rdG gender people have all different kinds of incarnations in life, different identities, sexes and sexual orientations.

Glad you kind of sideways pointed out something I wanted to say, in that the way I experience my gender it isn't related, born of or reliant on any comparison to my being Butch or masculinity... even know I am all they're actually separate things... just as they are for you.

Actually Metro being a woman, butch and masculine, as well as lesbian/queer, all tie together for me. So I wouldn't say they don't have any impact on each other or that they are separate for me personally.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Jett]

Actually Metro being a woman, butch and masculine, as well as lesbian/queer, all tie together for me. So I wouldn't say they don't have any impact on each other or that they are separate for me personally.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I was using your post as a jumping off point for me to express some things I had wanted to say about my perspective.

Besides I was just saying my being GQ isn't reliant or born of my being Butch or masculine... I'm certain there's some correlation with my gender in life resulting in certain places I arrive at... (Butch, etc. etc.) there really couldn't not be.

I wasn't stating absolutes.

ETA: ...and had actually edited my post to make sure I reflected that.

[BullDog]

I was using your post as a jumping off point for me to express some things I had wanted to say about my perspective.

Besides I was just saying my being GQ isn't reliant or born of my being Butch or masculine... I'm certain there's some correlation with my gender in life resulting in certain places I arrive at... (Butch, etc. etc.) there really couldn't not be.

I wasn't stating absolutes.

ETA: ...and had actually edited my post to make sure I reflected that.


Not all Women are Butches. Not all Third/Other Gender are Butches.

I wasn't objecting to anything in your post, just saying I don't see the various aspects of myself as not impacting each other or being separate. I don't see butch as being separate from woman for me. Glad if my post could serve as a jumping off place.

[Jett]

Not all Women are Butches. Not all Third/Other Gender are Butches.

I wasn't objecting to anything in your post, just saying I don't see the various aspects of myself as not impacting each other or being separate. I don't see butch as being separate from woman for me. Glad if my post could serve as a jumping off place.

That's fine Bull, I wasn't debating anything either, I'm happy that all those things and being a woman are in line for you.

Good day.

[Toughy]

I was kinda waiting for someone to point that out for them as well. So thank you.

Inks see it the same way. sometimes one her genders gets in an argument with her *body* but never gets in an argument with her other gender. I expereince that. The body that goes with my femme gender it a bit off the mark. But that may be my own baggage with my own conceptions of masculine (for lack of a better word. there is no word for it and that one is a sucky second to what I mean) femininity - perhaps androgenised hyper-femininity? Nevermind I can't explain it. Anyway, inks has a good friendship between her two genders. Maybe one rolls it's eyes a bit at the other on occation but that's about it.

but for both of us, we do have problems with the body matching up to the brain self-picture on occation, but it's not about genders not aligning with each other. I think anyones mulitplicity of gender can have a fine team action going on, rather than polerised bad marriages. Meaning... sorry... it doesn't *have* to be opposites nor does it *have* to be intrusive and cross purposes with each other.

I do get that for some it is. I'm not saying they need to "fly right, jack and pull up your boots straps." all I mean is, more than one gender doesn't mean an internal dogfight *has* to be the result.

I have said more than once in several places around the net that I claim at least 2 genders.........butch and woman being primary genders for me. I live in those 2 genders the large majority of my time.

I have also said that I do have a male id'd part of me (possibly another gender I guess) within the kink community. My leather Top/Dom space is Syr and really has nothing to do with woman and probably little to do with butch. And yes, sometimes it bites me and feels incongruent.....but I do like that space..........I just don't live it 24/7.

I rarely bottom (and don't have a submissive bone in my body) in the kink world.........when I do, I just don't think about it in terms of gender.........I think about in terms of bottom energy.

-----------
Of course femme is also a gender.........I can't even figure why anyone would say it's not.......makes no sense to me.

[AtLast]

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap... ;)

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.



Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

So much of what you and Dapper are saying rings true for me. identifying as TG, however (as you point out), does not fit as I understand it. Transition is the operative term that just doesn't work for me. But, transcending the binary or even transforming it sure would work! And I do know TG folks that actually feel these to be more representative of who they are.

Hummmmm.... trans has been a term that has caused painful division among butches, I believe. I would really like for us to bring an end to this. I know that before I ever identified as butch or even became actively involved in the B-F community, I did not have the kinds of negative interactions that I have within it. This seems so weird to me and been painful. I honestly have not come to any conclusions about this that really answer my internal questions of why this has been my experience after knowing TG people since I was a kid. Sometimes, I do feel that it is essentially about competition, which I don't like accepting.... at all!

[Jett]

Body... since it's been brought up.

I do have some comfort and discomfort areas relating to mind and body connection (I know people often do but I'm relating this in the context of GQ/TG/3rdG).

I bind, and pack (though the packing varies) to sync body and mind more. I'm pretty small chested so it doesn't take any more than a high impact sports "bra" to almost completely flatten me out.

For me I wouldn't consider any degree of transition, because honestly I have enough genetic male or masculine physical markers to a point where I feel my body naturally reflects my balance in genderqueer-ness in it's already male/female appearance. Even my bone structure (facial etc.) is "heavy" with mixture of male - having large brow ridges, temporal lines, blunt fingers, robust bones etc... and female- curvature at the hips, narrower jaw line etc.... but it's actually a balance that is good with me (I think I would be a real challenge for a forensic anthropologist (gawd forbid). I also have a pretty deep voice on that side of things too and I pass pretty easily if desired.

Something perhaps worth mention. I did gain some weight back in 08' after my mom died and unfortunately it was mostly on my hips and chest... I was amazed how much that changed the appearance of my body, really threw my body away from my minds eye of where I feel ok with it in terms of what I desire to present with how I feel as genderqueer. Fortunately I've lost that weight and am back where I feel more comfortable.

I've definitely had some mirror moments (aside from the weight gain), but I think it's been along the lines of my own baggage, in my own ingrained social teachings of what we're "expected" to look like in a binary world. As I said I seem to physically fall more toward "middle". Vast majority of days though I'm happy with what I see, actually grateful because out of line with the binary or not... my body is fairly in line with my personal internal genderqueer.

Just thoughts for the day...

Metro

[Darth Denkay]

I've been reading this thread from its inception, but as seems to generally be the case, I don't have the time to actually respond much to threads. I have been thinking a good deal though as many of you have shared your thoughts.

Third or Other Gender butch

I haven't ever used either term. I've always used trans butch. For a while now though, it hasn't felt quite right. I've used it to denote that I don't feel like a man or a woman, but instead someone distinct. However, it seems as though that term carries with it some expectation - in this community at least - of feeling 'male'. I don't. I feel masculine, which to me doesn't equate to being either male or a man.

My body is female. I'm reasonably comfortable with it, except that I want at least a major reduction (I'd prefer a complete double mastectomy but don't know if I could get that). I am fairly large chested. I wear frog bras which do a decent job of flattening and tend to wear shirts that don't fit snugly. I tend to pass, at least at first. I think I'm read as male by anyone who looks briefly, and those that look a bit more closely it seems to be a toss-up.

I also pack. It feels right. Flattening my chest and packing allows me to experience much more connection with my body than when I don't.

Now, back to the terms in question. I've been mulling them over quite a lot, and find mixed thoughts regarding them. On the one hand, third or other both indicate that I am neither male or female which trans does not. On the other hand, they still don't allow us to really identify what our gender, at least in general looks like. Other tells us not man or woman, but doesn't give any additional information. It also lumps everyone who doesn't identify as male or female in one group, and the reality is there are probably many gender sub-groups within that population. Similarly, 'third' only means not male or female, although it does imply that there are potentially many gender categories (third, fourth, fifth, and so on).

Reading through this thread, it appears that the butches who have posted could make up a gender category - enough similarities to define us. However, we're still left with no descriptor that gives any additional information about our gender.

I think I'm going to start using 'third gender'. It feels more right than 'trans' and I like it more than 'other'. We're always going to be limited by language in terms of identifying our gender, but third gender at least distinguishes completely from man and woman.

Great thread!

[BullDog]

Wicket, there are some butches who feel their gender is Butch, without other qualifiers or other genders in addition to. Butch is generally understood to be masculine female. So I am wondering why your gender wouldn't just be Butch as a stand alone gender if other terms don't really resonate with you? I am just curious is all.

[AtLast]

I've been reading this thread from its inception, but as seems to generally be the case, I don't have the time to actually respond much to threads. I have been thinking a good deal though as many of you have shared your thoughts.

Third or Other Gender butch

I haven't ever used either term. I've always used trans butch. For a while now though, it hasn't felt quite right. I've used it to denote that I don't feel like a man or a woman, but instead someone distinct. However, it seems as though that term carries with it some expectation - in this community at least - of feeling 'male'. I don't. I feel masculine, which to me doesn't equate to being either male or a man.

My body is female. I'm reasonably comfortable with it, except that I want at least a major reduction (I'd prefer a complete double mastectomy but don't know if I could get that). I am fairly large chested. I wear frog bras which do a decent job of flattening and tend to wear shirts that don't fit snugly. I tend to pass, at least at first. I think I'm read as male by anyone who looks briefly, and those that look a bit more closely it seems to be a toss-up.

I also pack. It feels right. Flattening my chest and packing allows me to experience much more connection with my body than when I don't.

Now, back to the terms in question. I've been mulling them over quite a lot, and find mixed thoughts regarding them. On the one hand, third or other both indicate that I am neither male or female which trans does not. On the other hand, they still don't allow us to really identify what our gender, at least in general looks like. Other tells us not man or woman, but doesn't give any additional information. It also lumps everyone who doesn't identify as male or female in one group, and the reality is there are probably many gender sub-groups within that population. Similarly, 'third' only means not male or female, although it does imply that there are potentially many gender categories (third, fourth, fifth, and so on).

Reading through this thread, it appears that the butches who have posted could make up a gender category - enough similarities to define us. However, we're still left with no descriptor that gives any additional information about our gender.

I think I'm going to start using 'third gender'. It feels more right than 'trans' and I like it more than 'other'. We're always going to be limited by language in terms of identifying our gender, but third gender at least distinguishes completely from man and woman.

Great thread!

I find this to be true, as well. finally, I feel like we are getting somewhere! Being female-bodied, yet, masculine, not TG or Intergendered and butch is not easy!! I do claim female, but as I stated, it is really an other. Out of all of the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best and still allows me to be the female I am, really. Yes, some of this is personal politics (and a state of spirit), but, I really want gender identity to evolve past the binary across the board. For every single human being!

[DapperButch]

I find this to be true, as well. finally, I feel like we are getting somewhere! Being female-bodied, yet, masculine, not TG or Intergendered and butch is not easy!! I do claim female, but as I stated, it is really an other. Out of all of the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best and still allows me to be the female I am, really. Yes, some of this is personal politics (and a state of spirit), but, I really want gender identity to evolve past the binary across the board. For every single human being!

Hey there, AtLastHome (and Happy Birthday!)

Ok, so I am a little confused, and I am hoping that you can help me out here.

I have been struggling with understanding what you have been trying to get across in your posts on this thread. I have always enjoyed your posts and typically don't struggle with understanding what it is you are trying to get across, and often I am nodding as I am reading, in agreement.

But, in this thread, I am stumped. Really, really stumped.

I am having difficulty understanding why you would ID as "other" or "3rd gendered".

My understanding is that you define as female. You define as a woman. (And you define as butch).

So what makes you "third or "other gendered"?

To my knowledge third gendered/other gendered/two spirit has always been defined as someone who doesn't define as a man or as a woman and/or does not define as male or female.

You said, "Out of all the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best...". Are you referencing a certain piece of literature here that defines 3rd-G differently than the way I have defined it above (and which I think is also the general consensus of the thread)?

What definition of 3rd-G are you working from? The above, or something else?

Thanks.

[AtLast]

Hey there, AtLastHome (and Happy Birthday!)

Ok, so I am a little confused, and I am hoping that you can help me out here.

I have been struggling with understanding what you have been trying to get across in your posts on this thread. I have always enjoyed your posts and typically don't struggle with understanding what it is you are trying to get across, and often I am nodding as I am reading, in agreement.

But, in this thread, I am stumped. Really, really stumped.

I am having difficulty understanding why you would ID as "other" or "3rd gendered".

My understanding is that you define as female. You define as a woman. (And you define as butch).

So what makes you "third or "other gendered"?

To my knowledge third gendered/other gendered/two spirit has always been defined as someone who doesn't define as a man or as a woman and/or does not define as male or female.

You said, "Out of all the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best...". Are you referencing a certain piece of literature here that defines 3rd-G differently than the way I have defined it above (and which I think is also the general consensus of the thread)?

What definition of 3rd-G are you working from? The above, or something else?

Thanks.



Hey, Dapper!

I see the confusion. I don't know if my personal definitions will make a lot of sense to others (LOL, no pun intended) and honestly, I don't believe I fit exactly into any gender theory I have ever read about. I seem to be a varied mix and I am fine with this. But, I know that this is not a peaceful condition for many of us.

I know I have the spirit of a woman, an actual woman (as my late partner used to tell me - she had always been involved with TG butches, which upon their wanting to transition, she needed to leave as she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay). She recognized my internal satisfaction and peace with the mix of male/masculine and female/feminine. I also find 2-spirit to be freeing because it does get away from the binary and also aligns with my spiritual belief system (which I have said is central to me). However, 2-Spirit is actually based upon sexuality as in being gay or lesbian or bisexual if you look at the literature. However, today, it is being more and more understood in terms of gender identity. Third-Gender identity fits with the fact that I am a masculine in many ways and I do see it as scientifically sound when it comes to the multitude of butches like me. I also believe that masculinity springs from the feminine (animus) as a long time Jungian. I believe in a collective unconscious stemming from the archetypal Great Mother. This is of a holy and sacred nature to me (yes, I get eye rolls, here).

I guess I push my female/woman into one part of the range of gender that 3rd-G seems to allow. I look at all of gender theory as a continuum, really just as I view sexuality.

I think my personal feelings here would not fit into a neat identification scheme. I know that my 2-Spirit feelings are pretty political because we just don't seem to have an alternative to the binary in our culture. Also, 2-Spirit is revered and respected by Native American cultures.

When someone refers to me as male, or uses male pronouns, my reaction isn't about gender politics, however, I honestly think... that isn't right, I am a woman. Its kind of like how some FtM's and MtF's have felt when they were viewed as the opposite gender than what is true for them.

Gender is fluid (and transcending) to me and really has no specific bounds other than what my internal truth is for me based upon my beliefs and that is female for me. Now, I do realize, that I too, have been subjected to the traditional binary and have no other name for what is true for me. I do know, that my female/feminine ancestors are at the center of who I am, even what is male/masculine about me.

I am glad to discuss this privately in more detail because I think my spiritual beliefs might throw others off, but I am very respectful of both religious and spiritual constructs of others and am not willing to have mine taken to task publicly (not that you or anyone else is doing so).

So, my 3rd-genderism just has a female slant, just as for others it may have a more male slant given the constraints of the English language. So, female-other is all I have at present that fits for me.... but I bet something else will come along! Third-Gendered fits because it appears to integrate gender.... to me!

I feel I have the right (for me) amount of female and male attributes and remain a woman. Maybe that’s it…. I do view myself as a woman, not simply female.

I don’t know that I use the terms female, feminine, male, or masculine as many here do. Again, these are integrated for me. For others, this isn’t true and one way of making things fit better for them might be gender manipulation or modification. I don’t know and certainly have no problem with this. I know that I want others to experience the same peace I do with my gender identification internally... whatever it takes!

******
This book is interesting concerning gender and lesbianism-
Sexual Subjects: Lesbians, Gender and Psychoa…(Paperback)
by Adria E. Schwartz

[DapperButch]

Hey, Dapper!

I see the confusion. I don't know if my personal definitions will make a lot of sense to others (LOL, no pun intended) and honestly, I don't believe I fit exactly into any gender theory I have ever read about. I seem to be a varied mix and I am fine with this. But, I know that this is not a peaceful condition for many of us.

I know I have the spirit of a woman, an actual woman (as my late partner used to tell me - she had always been involved with TG butches, which upon their wanting to transition, she needed to leave as she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay). She recognized my internal satisfaction and peace with the mix of male/masculine and female/feminine. I also find 2-spirit to be freeing because it does get away from the binary and also aligns with my spiritual belief system (which I have said is central to me). However, 2-Spirit is actually based upon sexuality as in being gay or lesbian or bisexual if you look at the literature. However, today, it is being more and more understood in terms of gender identity. Third-Gender identity fits with the fact that I am a masculine in many ways and I do see it as scientifically sound when it comes to the multitude of butches like me. I also believe that masculinity springs from the feminine (animus) as a long time Jungian. I believe in a collective unconscious stemming from the archetypal Great Mother. This is of a holy and sacred nature to me (yes, I get eye rolls, here).

I guess I push my female/woman into one part of the range of gender that 3rd-G seems to allow. I look at all of gender theory as a continuum, really just as I view sexuality.

I think my personal feelings here would not fit into a neat identification scheme. I know that my 2-Spirit feelings are pretty political because we just don't seem to have an alternative to the binary in our culture. Also, 2-Spirit is revered and respected by Native American cultures.

When someone refers to me as male, or uses male pronouns, my reaction isn't about gender politics, however, I honestly think... that isn't right, I am a woman. Its kind of like how some FtM's and MtF's have felt when they were viewed as the opposite gender than what is true for them.

Gender is fluid (and transcending) to me and really has no specific bounds other than what my internal truth is for me based upon my beliefs and that is female for me. Now, I do realize, that I too, have been subjected to the traditional binary and have no other name for what is true for me. I do know, that my female/feminine ancestors are at the center of who I am, even what is male/masculine about me.

I am glad to discuss this privately in more detail because I think my spiritual beliefs might throw others off, but I am very respectful of both religious and spiritual constructs of others and am not willing to have mine taken to task publicly (not that you or anyone else is doing so).

So, my 3rd-genderism just has a female slant, just as for others it may have a more male slant given the constraints of the English language. So, female-other is all I have at present that fits for me.... but I bet something else will come along! Third-Gendered fits because it appears to integrate gender.... to me!

I feel I have the right (for me) amount of female and male attributes and remain a woman. Maybe that’s it…. I do view myself as a woman, not simply female.

I don’t know that I use the terms female, feminine, male, or masculine as many here do. Again, these are integrated for me. For others, this isn’t true and one way of making things fit better for them might be gender manipulation or modification. I don’t know and certainly have no problem with this. I know that I want others to experience the same peace I do with my gender identification internally... whatever it takes!

******
This book is interesting concerning gender and lesbianism-
Sexual Subjects: Lesbians, Gender and Psychoa…(Paperback)
by Adria E. Schwartz

Thanks for taking the time to respond, AtLastHome. I believe that I understand a bit better now.

[AtLast]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, AtLastHome. I believe that I understand a bit better now.

You bet!

I have been thinking about the fact that I (and it seems like quite a few others) do take some license when applying different gender theories to myself. I don't really know how this plays out in terms of those who are really experts in the field. There are certainly a whole lot of folks much more well-read, up to date and have a very breadth of knowledge in this area compared to me right here on the site (and the other sites for the B-F community. Some are even majoring in college in Gender Studies, etc. I know that when I am pondering gender identification it really helps me to ask folks I know that have more knowledge and can give me info on the literature.

[nytangel]

I go by two-spirit as a way of denoting my gender. I am the best and worst of both(in our binary world) in one body. Pronouns to me don't matter, I will and do answer to both he and she and not think anything of it, that is part of being two-spirit.

I came to the conclusion years ago that I kind of like this body and I have no need to bind or anything like that. Besides it would be a bit hard, my tits are rather ample, its a family trait. So I dress in male clothes, except for the sports bras that I wear for work and other then winter, I keep my hair fairly short. A quick look and I get tagged as a butch all the time, which is not a big deal for me.





I agree its the best of both worlds. I've had some great conversations w/ friends that have opted to start the surgical process; but that is something that I can not do. How do others feel about the reassignment surgery?

[Darth Denkay]

Wicket, there are some butches who feel their gender is Butch, without other qualifiers or other genders in addition to. Butch is generally understood to be masculine female. So I am wondering why your gender wouldn't just be Butch as a stand alone gender if other terms don't really resonate with you? I am just curious is all.

You're right Bulldog, many folks around here use Butch as their sole gender identifier. The reason I am really exploring other labels is that, in my opinion, butch as a gender is only useful within the butch-femme community. In thinking about being a part of the broader general public, although most folks still won't get it, third gender would be easier to understand. It's less specific, granted. But I think they could wrap their heads around it better. The other reason is that I am hesitant, especially in the general public, to think that adding gender categories is helpful. Seems like a huge :canoworms: to me. We add butch and femme to the gender categories, others who don't feel as though they quite fit into the now four-gender system come up with their own, and we end up with a never-ending list of gender categories. Instead, why not simply present ourselves as not male or female, simply in an attempt to challenge the accepted gender binary. That seems to me a potentially more effective goal.


You bet!

I have been thinking about the fact that I (and it seems like quite a few others) do take some license when applying different gender theories to myself. I don't really know how this plays out in terms of those who are really experts in the field. There are certainly a whole lot of folks much more well-read, up to date and have a very breadth of knowledge in this area compared to me right here on the site (and the other sites for the B-F community. Some are even majoring in college in Gender Studies, etc. I know that when I am pondering gender identification it really helps me to ask folks I know that have more knowledge and can give me info on the literature.

Ah, so the academics are the experts in gender theory? I'm still in graduate school and have done a large amount of reading and some research around gender theory, especially butch-femme. I don't think that I can completely understand any one person's experience of gender. I can better articulate mine, but no one can box me into a specific gender theory. We are all the experts of our own gendered experience.

[BullDog]

You're right Bulldog, many folks around here use Butch as their sole gender identifier. The reason I am really exploring other labels is that, in my opinion, butch as a gender is only useful within the butch-femme community. In thinking about being a part of the broader general public, although most folks still won't get it, third gender would be easier to understand. It's less specific, granted. But I think they could wrap their heads around it better. The other reason is that I am hesitant, especially in the general public, to think that adding gender categories is helpful. Seems like a huge :canoworms: to me. We add butch and femme to the gender categories, others who don't feel as though they quite fit into the now four-gender system come up with their own, and we end up with a never-ending list of gender categories. Instead, why not simply present ourselves as not male or female, simply in an attempt to challenge the accepted gender binary. That seems to me a potentially more effective goal.

Darth, thank you for your post. I agree with you that the proliferation of gender identities doesn't seem particularly helpful in terms of breaking free of the binary system way of thinking or being particularly accessible to the general public, no matter how meaningful the various gender identities may be on an individual and personal level.

Butch is meaningful to me, but out in the world I am seen as female, woman and lesbian- which is fine by me. I feel as a butch woman I transgress gender and challenge the stereotypes of what woman is and can be. I feel that third gender can also challenge what man and woman can be as well as offer other alternatives to man and woman. I would use man and woman rather than male and female, which to me are biological sex and not gender.

I do feel that the limitations and stereotypes placed upon man and woman is the main problem, more than there not being enough genders. However, I do believe more than two genders exist and should be recognized.

Thanks again Darth.

[AtLast]

[COLOR="Navy"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Ah, so the academics are the experts in gender theory? I'm still in graduate school and have done a large amount of reading and some research around gender theory, especially butch-femme. I don't think that I can completely understand any one person's experience of gender. I can better articulate mine, but no one can box me into a specific gender theory. We are all the experts of our own gendered experience.

Only experts in developing the theoretical positions and doing research. I do as you do in drawing from theory and applying what makes sense to me. That is what I mean't by taking license. I have a fundamental understanding of the literature, but, it isn't something that I study deeply as do many TG folks I know. Probably this is due to my not viewung myself as Trans and have no reason to look deeply at reassignment issues. It does help, though, to understand key elements in being able to talk with transitioning friends and offer support.

There is an academic study of gender based on theory and research and is part of curriculums all over the world. Helpful in that there has not been a lot of research done in the past. Even the stats on the numbers of those choosing reassignment are sketchy. It would seem that the development of academic curriculum as well as research studies would help in political areas such as in employment discrimination. And also help with kids and their parents deal with gender identity differences (from the binary) earlier and with some social supports.

I do hear you about our own personal experience of gender. I know that there is quite a mix for me in how I view myself and often, I don't fit into any given box when it come to my own personal gender distinctions.

[Dylan]

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

[Greyson]

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

I did for most of my life Dylan. In my thinking, or maybe the environment I came from to be Butch did imply you were not a "woman" like the others. But, you were not a "man" either.

Then the 80s came along and the gender theory began to bust open the accepted binary. Initially I did not see the big differences between an FTM and a Butch. Now 20 something years later, I have taken in so much new information and changed some of my beliefs.

So know, I no longer consistently identify solely as "Butch."

[Bit]

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?
Dylan

My gender is Femme.

My sex is female.

[Greyson]

So know, I no longer consistently identify solely as "Butch."

I meant to say "So no, I no longer consistently identify solely as Butch."

[Jett]

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

I'd thought about butch as a gender, the thing for me is I don't see how my gender is dependent in any way to my being female bodied and having masculinity.

In other words if I wasn't a "butch" I'd still be genderqueer... if I wasn't masculine I'd still be genderqueer.

[DapperButch]

I did for most of my life Dylan. In my thinking, or maybe the environment I came from to be Butch did imply you were not a "woman" like the others. But, you were not a "man" either.

Then the 80s came along and the gender theory began to bust open the accepted binary. Initially I did not see the big differences between an FTM and a Butch. Now 20 something years later, I have taken in so much new information and changed some of my beliefs.

So know, I no longer consistently identify solely as "Butch."

Like Greyson, I came from the school of thought (and literature), that butch was a gender separate from woman and man. One was neither woman nor man, but just simply butch. The noun. If you said that you were a butch woman, then you were using butch as an adjective and not as a noun (a gender).

When I came to B/F.com (late 1990's), I noticed that the above was not the case. Subsequently, I did not identify as "simply butch" on said site, as I am not a woman.

[DapperButch]

Quoting myself for clarity...

Like Greyson, I came from the school of thought (and literature), that butch was a gender separate from woman and man. One was neither woman nor man, but just simply butch. The noun. If you said that you were a butch woman, then you were using butch as an adjective and not as a noun (a gender).

When I came to B/F.com (late 1990's), I noticed that the above was not the case. Subsequently, I did not identify as "simply butch" on said site, as I am not a woman.


ETA:Meaning, that the above was not the case, for the some of the members on that site, specifically

[BullDog]

Like Greyson, I came from the school of thought (and literature), that butch was a gender separate from woman and man. One was neither woman nor man, but just simply butch. The noun. If you said that you were a butch woman, then you were using butch as an adjective and not as a noun (a gender).

When I came to B/F.com (late 1990's), I noticed that the above was not the case. Subsequently, I did not identify as "simply butch" on said site, as I am not a woman.

I use butch as a noun for myself not as an adjective, and I am a woman also.

[AtLast]

I may be double-gendered..... female & butch.... which is how I view myself in terms of being female-other. This feels like a sub-identification of butch to me.

When is all said & done, my guess is that there are many genders!

:boink: multiplistc boink...

[Greyson]

I use butch as a noun for myself not as an adjective, and I am a woman also.


BullDog, do you use woman as a noun also and not a descriptor, adjective? I am asking this question in the spirit of seeking understanding. It's not meant to be a slander of some sort.

I use the words "Transmasculine Butch" to attempt to identify my gender with some clarity. Transpmasculine is an adjective, Butch is a noun. Transmasculine offers some insight to my belief that I fit somewhere on the spectrum of Transgender and have taken steps to move toward the legal recognition of my "otherness." Unfortunately, in our current legal system, in most countries there is only the option of being recognized legally as a man or woman.

There is one exception that I am aware of and that is because Linus posted a link with a story about a person born as a cisgender man, transitioned to become female, then decided that she/he was non-gendered. England did grant this person legal status as non-gendered.

[BullDog]

BullDog, do you use woman as a noun also and not a descriptor, adjective? I am asking this question in the spirit of seeking understanding. It's not meant to be a slander of some sort.

I use the words "Transmasculine Butch" to attempt to identify my gender with some clarity. Transpmasculine is an adjective, Butch is a noun. Transmasculine offers some insight to my belief that I fit somewhere on the spectrum of Transgender and have taken steps to move toward the legal recognition of my "otherness." Unfortunately, in our current legal system, in most countries there is only the option of being recognized legally as a man or woman.

There is one exception that I am aware of and that is because Linus posted a link with a story about a person born as a cisgender man, transitioned to become female, then decided that she/he was non-gendered. England did grant this person legal status as non-gendered.

Yes, both Butch and Woman are nouns. Thank you for the clarification on transmasculine.

[AtLast]

I use the words "Transmasculine Butch" to attempt to identify my gender with some clarity. Transpmasculine is an adjective, Butch is a noun. Transmasculine offers some insight to my belief that I fit somewhere on the spectrum of Transgender and have taken steps to move toward the legal recognition of my "otherness." Unfortunately, in our current legal system, in most countries there is only the option of being recognized legally as a man or woman.

And this needs to change! So many are simply being cast back into the binary because of this. It negates who they are as a kind of double-whammy, or a Catch-22!

There is one exception that I am aware of and that is because Linus posted a link with a story about a person born as a cisgender man, transitioned to become female, then decided that she/he was non-gendered. England did grant this person legal status as non-gendered.

This is so very interesting! Thanks, Linus! Needs to be many, many, more exceptions!

[BullDog]

I have never understood why our genders or biological sex (whatever they may be) need to have a legal status to begin with.

[Greyson]

I have never understood why our genders or biological sex (whatever they may be) need to have a legal status to begin with.


That is a very excellent point. I have wondered myself but this is the current reality I/we live in and I try to thrive in. I think this need to codify ones gender and/or biological sex is most likely grounded, and mired in patriarchy.

[AtLast]

That is a very excellent point. I have wondered myself but this is the current reality I/we live in and I try to thrive in. I think this need to codify ones gender and/or biological sex is most likely grounded, and mired in patriarchy.

Absolutely rooted in patriarchy! And male-dominated jurisprudence. Not all that long ago, historically (speaking about modern western cultures, as this is still true in some other cultures), women could not own property, including children they bore! They could not divorce ... or vote (not until 1920 in the US)!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Absolutely rooted in patriarchy! And male-dominated jurisprudence. Not all that long ago, historically (speaking about modern western cultures, as this is still true in some other cultures), women could not own property, including children they bore! They could not divorce ... or vote (not until 1920 in the US)!

Or even buy a couch or a car, have a bank account, etc without a husband's signature even in the early 60's.

and people have no use for feminism. *teeth suck*

[Jess]

Or even buy a couch or a car, have a bank account, etc without a husband's signature even in the early 60's.

and people have no use for feminism. *teeth suck*

they also could not have hysterectomy's or have other "sterilizing" procedures without consent from husband, even when it was medically advised.

[Kenna]

they also could not have hysterectomy's or have other "sterilizing" procedures without consent from husband, even when it was medically advised.

I personally think it's a terrible shame and crime that this still goes on in some countries and cultures.

[AtLast]

they also could not have hysterectomy's or have other "sterilizing" procedures without consent from husband, even when it was medically advised.

There was a special on PBS the other night tracing the steps to Roe v. Wade that brings this to light in so many ways. The whole manner in which women had no say over anything having to do with their bodies. It also brought to light how WOC joined forces in the Feminist Movement as they (along with any poor women) were mostly subject to back-room abortion.

OK, we have derailed the thread!

Now that I think about it, however, if we did live in a perfect world and the binary was NOT used as a legal designation for gender..... how would this play out in terms of women's rights? I'd like to think that this could banish the tenets of male priviledge, but, would it? Seems possible.... but, would it in terms of the obvious gender related wealth and power that lies in the hands of men?

If trangendered and intergendered really became legal gender designations (which I believe should be), would we see (speaking of the US, here) a redistribution of wealth and power based upon gender?

[swagger]

the more i think about gender, as opposed to sex, the more i suspect myself of having no gender. seriously.

[noneoftheabove]

I really like this thread. I can't relate to man or woman either. In my head I have a male body but I am ok with having a physically female body. Somehow my brain is not registering this as a problem, and I have little to no dysphoria. I prefer he because it refers to the male that I see myself as but she is OK with me as long as it is referring to just my surface. I've been more uncomfortable to the people's reactions around me to the pronouns I've been called than to the pronouns themselves.

[Gráinne]

I'm new, and somehow stumbled into this thread.

I am biologically female, but not a woman. I have a strong streak of masculinity in me, but I am not a man. As far back as I can remember, even before realizing I was lesbian, I knew I didn't fit into "girl" or "boy". It's not about transitioning into an "opposite", but realizing that I am both and neither.

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

When I first came out, I thought I had to "pick one"-butch or femme, and I couldn't fit 100% in either. So again, I am both and I am neither. I don't know if "andro" fits, or even if that word is still used. It feels a little unnerving, not having a box to check, so to speak, but on the other hand, it's liberating. I kind of like being open to whatever feels right on a given day.

[chefhottie25]

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap... ;)

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.



Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

i agree with both of you. i feel genderfull too. i identify as a boi, but don't feel TG. I bind but not for passing purposes. I don't prefer being referred to as hy over she. i am both...or maybe neither. a good friend and i recently talked about third gender. she said that she views me as non gender conforming. that really seemed to fit me well. i often struggle to find a sense of belonging in the bf community because i don't identify as butch or femme or TG. My outward appearance and my personal care regiments are masculine. However, I do embrace my femme qualities emotionally. I exhibit and express feelings that would be described more as feminine. I feel like a boi but i don't feel like i want to transition. i am not meant to be a male...but i also don't feel female. it is very difficult to explain...and difficult for me to fully understand myself. i hope this thread will generate discourse that will help me to understand it.

[Gryph]

I'm new, and somehow stumbled into this thread.

I am biologically female, but not a woman. I have a strong streak of masculinity in me, but I am not a man. As far back as I can remember, even before realizing I was lesbian, I knew I didn't fit into "girl" or "boy". It's not about transitioning into an "opposite", but realizing that I am both and neither.

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

When I first came out, I thought I had to "pick one"-butch or femme, and I couldn't fit 100% in either. So again, I am both and I am neither. I don't know if "andro" fits, or even if that word is still used. It feels a little unnerving, not having a box to check, so to speak, but on the other hand, it's liberating. I kind of like being open to whatever feels right on a given day.

This is why I am a Two-Spirit. Except in my life right now and in the future. I am more masculine and do use the male pronouns. I have already been/done the femme/female, so its time for the other.

[Chazz]

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

You make sense to me, guihong.

I don't relate to masculine or feminine. Butch is plenty enough for me, except in situations where I use butch woman because I don't wish to be swept up as male identified. (I look "masculine" to some people's eye.)