Unconditional Love... is it really unconditional?

[SassyLeo]

I was listening to NPR last night; Fresh Air with Terry Gross. She had Karl Rove on.

Talk about a hard interview. He talked over Terry, didn’t listen well…and was quick to disagree with practically EVERYTHING she said.

Sometimes I am fascinated by people whom I don’t understand. Sometimes I’m annoyed to the hilt…but last night I was intrigued. And especially when he was talking about his father.

He talks a lot about the media’s obsession with whether his father was gay or not.

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=124597241

Here is an excerpt:

GROSS: Later, the question seemed to arise: Was your father gay? And you write: Could Dad have been gay? I didn't see it. I know he had gay friends and volunteered for years at the Desert AIDS Project in Palm Springs, but having gay friends or being concerned about whether someone who is sick gets driven to a clinic appointment or gets a delivery of groceries doesn't make you gay. To this day, I have no idea if my father was gay, and frankly, I don't care.

I know you hate this connection, but I can't help but wonder, if there's any chance that your father was gay, did you ever think that your style of politics, that your running against gay marriage - and I would argue, against...

Mr. ROVE: Running for traditional marriage.

GROSS: ...that that might have had a negative effect on his life.

Mr. ROVE: Well, I wrote about this in the book because - I didn't want to, but it - people, journalists and liberal commentators used allegations that my father was gay to attack me, to suggest - and I'm not suggesting you're exactly like it, because you're much more restrained in your rhetoric than many of them were - that somehow or another, it was hypocritical and inappropriate for me to defend traditional marriage when my father was gay.

Well, first of all, I don't know whether he was gay or not, and frankly, I never saw it and I don't care. But it's also, I think, hypocritical for people to suggest that if you have gay relatives or gay friends that you have to be in favor of gay marriage or you're somehow hypocritical.

*snip*

GROSS: So but one more thing. When you say that you didn't know if your father was gay and that you didn't care, I guess I'm just kind of curious why you didn't want to know, because you say you didn't want to know. And it just seems to me if someone's gay, it's kind of who they love, who their partner is, it's partly at the essence of who they are. And why wouldn't you want to know that?

Mr. ROVE: Because, first of all, it's my father's decision to tell me. I mean, my father was an art collector. It was up to him to say I'm an art collector. I mean, it was up to my father - my father was a very private man. He was a taciturn Midwesterner, a Scandinavian to boot.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

Mr. ROVE: And, for example, when my wife asked him about my mother late in his life, I was amazed. I was overcome when my father began to describe my mother and the relationship in intimate terms and to talk about her in a way that was so powerful about how much he loved her, and to begin to weep.

I mean, I was taken aback because it was - my father was a very private man. So, you know, it's not like I need to know my father's private views or private actions in order to know that I loved him. And, you know, it's sort of like -it was his business. And if he was, fine. If he wasn't, fine. But it was up to him to tell me what he was comfortable telling me, not for me to pry - and particularly since, look, this was not a question until people began, in the aftermath of his death, to make allegations about him.

*snip*

Not that it should make sense *at all* - coming from Karl Rove. But how can ANYONE reconcile this? How could he *not care*? Either his father was not gay or he is in complete denial.

Here is what it got me thinking about: can he or anyone else *really* love someone totally unconditionally when they potentially vehemently disagree with the other person’s identity, beliefs, how they operate in the world, etc. When you unconditionally love someone, do you *not care* if they are gay or an art dealer or a street peddler – if those are descriptors that they use to define themselves and feel are a part of their identity? As Terry said “And it just seems to me if someone's gay, it's kind of who they love, who their partner is, it's partly at the essence of who they are. And why wouldn't you want to know that?”

For example: My father is gay. He came out in 1986. At one point he told his parents (my grandparents) and they didn’t speak to him for 3-5 years. They eventually became in touch again (after he initiated contact –partly his guilt because they were aging and ill), but they NEVER talk about his orientation or his partner whom he has been with for 12 years. My grandfather passed a couple of years ago and my grandma has been ill. I made a choice not tell them about me…it’s just easier. I know they are homophobic. Did they love my dad unconditionally? I doubt it.

I wonder if I could love someone unconditionally if they did not accept me for who I am as a Queer person.

I’m interested in others thoughts…

[key]

This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.

I am from a fundamental Christian family. I have 8 brothers and sisters, two of which, in my opinion, would be gay if they were not so...fundamentally Christian. Or to put it another way, are gay and would allow themselves to be themselves if they were not so fundamentally Christian.

So every year 2-3 times I make the pilgrimage to my home, to visit my ailing mother and to visit with (for my mothers sake) my siblings, their spouses and their children, sum total about 35 (honestly I've lost count - I just see one gigantic carbon footprint)

And every time, after every pilgrimage, I come back twisted up inside because we all tell each other that we love each other, but....well...how can they love me? When they do not hold a vision of me of even being okay in the eyes of "God." How can I love them, knowing what they believe to be true about me?

I have not fully answered this question. I try to love them and I believe that they are trying to love me. Perhaps we are all loving each other to best of our abilities. Isn't that all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?

[Hack]

I'm generally a private person -- one of those "taciturn Midwesterners," perhaps. I like to think I just come from stoic German stock. Anyway, there's one thing in this I want to respond to, if I may, because I live it every day.

You pose the question: I wonder if I could love someone unconditionally if they did not accept me for who I am as a Queer person?

Well, I do. My parents, but moreso my mother. I have a complicated relationship with my mother. She does not accept me as a queer person. She wants to know nothing about my private life, which causes me great grief around the holidays, which I dread more than anything. My mother is very Catholic. I grew up in a very old school, kind of Old World atmosphere, bookended by my father's German/WASPish family on one end, people incapable of expressing emotion of any kind; and my mother's Polish/Catholic family on the other end -- loud, raucuous, hard-drinking, guilt-riddled people. I grew up in a small town with no queer role model in sight. I love my mother. I respect her. She introduces me to people based on my job, and as her daughter, which draws curious looks from strangers. She struggles to acknowledge any girl I bring home...don't get me wrong -- she's polite, civil and will ask the basic questions of her ("What do you do for a living? Do you have siblings? Where did you grow up?"). But my mother never will be a PFLAG member. She will never call me by my chosen name. She would never attend a ceremony should I, god help me, ever want to be married. She never asks me if I am seeing someone. She never asks about my girlfriend when I have one. I grew up surrounded by men who treated their women like queens. I grew up respecting women. As I said, I respect my mother. I'm protective of her. I open doors for her when I am around her. I get angry when people show a lack of respect toward her.

But she has no respect for me and my life. But I love her. She's my mother.

And that's really all I want to say about that.

Jake

[SassyLeo]

This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.

I am from a fundamental Christian family. I have 8 brothers and sisters, two of which, in my opinion, would be gay if they were not so...fundamentally Christian. Or to put it another way, are gay and would allow themselves to be themselves if they were not so fundamentally Christian.

So every year 2-3 times I make the pilgrimage to my home, to visit my ailing mother and to visit with (for my mothers sake) my siblings, their spouses and their children, sum total about 35 (honestly I've lost count - I just see one gigantic carbon footprint)

And every time, after every pilgrimage, I come back twisted up inside because we all tell each other that we love each other, but....well...how can they love me? When they do not hold a vision of me of even being okay in the eyes of "God." How can I love them, knowing what they believe to be true about me?

I have not fully answered this question. I try to love them and I believe that they are trying to love me. Perhaps we are all loving each other to best of our abilities. Isn't that all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?

I've been thinking about this myself as well. What is unconditional love, really? Can it *really* exist. I want to say yes, but I'm not sure I can...

I think to myself that I love people in my life unconditionally...but what if one of them became a drug addict and stole from me? Or killed someone? Or???

Could I unconditionally love someone who betrayed me so much?

I posted in another thread about a colleague who had been reconnecting with her faith and questioning heaven and hell. Her pastor's wife was explaining that they believe if you do not live a Christian life, that you go to hell. So basically all my colleague's friends, whom she loved, based on this belief, were going to hell. She could not reconcile this.

So I think about your family...they love you I am sure, but in their eyes, you are committing a huge sin, I imagine. And you love them, even though they think you are not okay...

It's challenging...

[cinderella]

Only dogs & pupppies love unconditionally, and that's if you feed them!!

[key]

very reluctantly quoting Don Henley.

I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness, even if, even if
you don't love me anymore

I do believe it is possible to love unconditionally, maybe not everybody can do it and maybe not all the time. But I have had fleeting moments where I could look at my family, honestly, with all their flaws and shortcomings and not want them to be different, instead simply accepting them as-is. Isn't that unconditional love?

I think love and forgiveness can be learned. I don't think it is always something that just happens naturally (for most of us). For our sweethearts it is easier, but for those who don't fit so neatly into our ideals? I believe practice can make perfect. And our actions can change our minds more than the other way around. Just practicing kindness in the face of fierce opposition can be very powerful.

It's sort of side note, but did you see that video recently of the man with Parkinson's disease who sat in front of anti-healthcare protesters? The anti-health protesters were so vile, that him simply sitting there, literally absorbing their venom, was the most powerful image I have seen in a long long time. I don't know if he couldn't physically lash back or he just chose not to. But dayamn, I wish I could be that calm in the face of so much anti-Christian hatred I see from so many Jesus lovers.

[Gemme]

I do not believe in unconditional love. There are always conditions, whether conscious or not, and whether intentional or not.

If you don't do a, b, or c, I will withhold my affection for you. If you don't love me as I want to be loved, I will not love you as you want to be loved. If you do this, I'll do that.

For pets, if you don't feed me and love on me, I will shit in your shoes.

For children, if you do not give me the attention I seek and need, I will act out to get it, find another source to get it, or turn the demon inward.

These are just examples. I actually think that loving with conditions is a good thing. It's built in protection.

Person A is constantly hurting my feelings and trash talking me, so, though I do love him/her, I will withhold my affection and attention and put more space between us. I will take myself out of that negative energy space. That's a good thing.

[moxie]

I do not believe in unconditional love. There are always conditions, whether conscious or not, and whether intentional or not.

If you don't do a, b, or c, I will withhold my affection for you. If you don't love me as I want to be loved, I will not love you as you want to be loved. If you do this, I'll do that.

For pets, if you don't feed me and love on me, I will shit in your shoes.

For children, if you do not give me the attention I seek and need, I will act out to get it, find another source to get it, or turn the demon inward.

These are just examples. I actually think that loving with conditions is a good thing. It's built in protection.

Person A is constantly hurting my feelings and trash talking me, so, though I do love him/her, I will withhold my affection and attention and put more space between us. I will take myself out of that negative energy space. That's a good thing.



I whole-heartedly agree with your view on unconditional love as I feel the same. I am aware that I feel this way because I have never received unconditional love from my family (long story) and have no contact with them, so I truly do not know what it is or what it feels like to have. I do believe that it exists, but not in my personal framework. Not sure it ever will.

[WolfyOne]

Personally, I think only animals and little children can give unconditional love because they depend on us. No matter how you treat them, they'll always come back because they need you. As children get older, they learn to fend for themselves and unconditional love will no longer exist. Seems as we grow older, if you can't accept the good, bad and ugly in a partner, you'll never be able to give or receive unconditional love.

[Passionaria]

Unconditional love, is akin to purity of heart. It is a completely unselfish state of love. It isn't dependent on receiving anything in return. I agree that children and animals have this, also many Mothers. My children have tested me in about every way possible, and what it had taught me is that the love I have for them isn't dependent on who they choose to be, even how they act, or what they achieve. The love I have for them exists before any of that. I may not always like what they do, but no matter what, I love them, and would move heaven and earth on their behalf.

It's harder to feel that for someone you didn't give birth to, but I do believe it is possible. You have to be careful not to damage the Love before it grows strong, though.

:cat: Pashi

[Cyclopea]

It exists.

[DapperButch]

This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.

I am from a fundamental Christian family. I have 8 brothers and sisters, two of which, in my opinion, would be gay if they were not so...fundamentally Christian. Or to put it another way, are gay and would allow themselves to be themselves if they were not so fundamentally Christian.

So every year 2-3 times I make the pilgrimage to my home, to visit my ailing mother and to visit with (for my mothers sake) my siblings, their spouses and their children, sum total about 35 (honestly I've lost count - I just see one gigantic carbon footprint)

And every time, after every pilgrimage, I come back twisted up inside because we all tell each other that we love each other, but....well...how can they love me? When they do not hold a vision of me of even being okay in the eyes of "God." How can I love them, knowing what they believe to be true about me?
I have not fully answered this question. I try to love them and I believe that they are trying to love me. Perhaps we are all loving each other to best of our abilities. Isn't that all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?

[B]
I've been thinking about this myself as well. What is unconditional love, really? Can it *really* exist. I want to say yes, but I'm not sure I can...

I think to myself that I love people in my life unconditionally...but what if one of them became a drug addict and stole from me? Or killed someone? Or???

Could I unconditionally love someone who betrayed me so much?

[COLOR="Red"]I posted in another thread about a colleague who had been reconnecting with her faith and questioning heaven and hell. Her pastor's wife was explaining that they believe if you do not live a Christian life, that you go to hell. So basically all my colleague's friends, whom she loved, based on this belief, were going to hell. She could not reconcile this.

So I think about your family...they love you I am sure, but in their eyes, you are committing a huge sin, I imagine. And you love them, even though they think you are not okay...

It's challenging.


Hi Key and SassyLeo.

Key, I too grew up in a Fundamentalist Christian household. My parents truly, truly, truly worry about my eternal life. They worry that I may go to hell. For them, the way one gets to heaven is [believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accepting him as your Lord and Savior.]. You do not get to heaven by good works. You do not get to heaven by being a nice guy, a good mother, a good partner, and a good friend. You get to heaven through the above, just as SassyLeo's colleague was told. The expectation is that you will have a "relationship" with God/Jesus and live your life according to his Word (Bible).

The version of the Bible my parents use says that homosexuality is a sin. Now, under their church's teaching, you don't go to hell for sinning, your go for not accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. However, things get kind of sticky around the sin part b/c the assumption is that if you are choosing to do a habitual sin (sleep with the same sex and plan on repeating it), than one could theoretically question if a person is really a Christian b/c if you were a Christian you would not want to sin against God. Therefore, since I sleep with someone of the same sex, I must not (at minimum) have the "right kind" of relationship with God, so it calls into question if I will make it into heaven or not. Still with me? lol

My parents are worried about this...I mean WORRIED. They love their kid. And I truly believe that they love me unconditionally. I think that it is possible to love someone unconditionally (especially for a parent...well, this is what it seems like anyway but, I am not a parent). They are just freaked out about it. Have they wanted to meet my partners in the past? Well, I can't say that they were excited about it, but always responded with a yes to meeting them. Have I explained to them that it is important that if I have someone who looks to be a long term partner that they need to accept her and our relationship? Yep. Have they tried in this regard over the past few years? Yep.

But, do they still think that I am probably going to hell and do I think they most likely pray that I will become straight? Yep. Do I think that they "love me unconditionally"? Yep. I see it in soooo many ways, just too many times to discount.

So, Key, for me, my parents concern for my eternal life and their belief that I am sinning does not mean to me that they don't love me. In this case, it means that maybe they love me too much. If they didn't it wouldn't tear them up inside and it wouldn't "cause [my] father to pace the floors at night" (Yeah mom, thanks for THAT guilt! You get away with saying that ONCE!).

So no, their belief system does not impact their ability and natural inclination of unconditional love for me.

Side note: My parents are in no way, in your face, bible thumpers. They just do their thing and if someone asked them about their "thing", they would be happy to share it with them.

Side, side note: Damn, I never expected that I would ever share this much about my family and how their religion impacts things (and me) on a web site.

[key]

I don't want to live in a world where I believe there is not unconditional love. Yes, between humans.

I think we all love as best we can and I do believe that the highest, purist, most unconditional love is available to and for all of us whether we choose to experience it or not.

As I said before I have a had fleeting moments of it myself, and I think if I consciously practiced it more often (prayer, meditation and action) I could experience it more often. And also like I said before, I think it all starts with forgiveness, simply letting go of wishing anything were different. Accepting everyone and everything as is.

Marianne Williamson said: We are not held back by the love we didn't receive in the past, but by the love we're not extending in the present.

[adorable]

I can say with absolute certainty that no matter what my kids may ever do - my love for them would never change. I might not approve of whatever it is...and trust me I've already been there with the big one. lol. They are my kids, my heart and my purpose for being on this earth. For whatever shortcomings I might see in them, I think that means I have failed them in significant ways - yet they still love me. I would never tell them who or what they have to be for me to love them.

In my family I am probably closest to my grandparents. We have never spoken of my queerness. It was just understood. Do they love me? I suppose. I think they do it the only way they know how. To expect more of them doesn't seem fair. They're old. They believe what they believe. It would be disrespectful of me to try to change them in the same way it would be for them to try and change me. I don't like some of the choices they make either. I love them though and would do anything for them.

I have learned unconditional love from my kids. They taught me that. Because of them I can love my close friends unconditionally, my brother and even my grandparents. I certainly didn't have it from my mother growing up. There was nowhere else I would have learned it from. No matter what the significant people in my life may do - my love for them is always there.

[julieisafemme]

What an excellent thread. Thank you for starting it.

I believe unconditional love is something we aspire too every day. Some days I am pretty good and others not so much. I, like others who have posted, have learned and experienced unconditional love through my child. It's easier to see the twists and turns of behavior and hurt and anger in children. You can stay above it and not take it personally so that you can be there for them. That has helped me learn the skills to try it on adults. It is hard! Let me tell you it is easier to respond in anger than in love. But when I can check myself and look at my Mom or brother or partner and respond with love it completely transforms the interaction. It is kind of magical!

[SassyLeo]

[/COLOR]
Hi Key and SassyLeo.

Key, I too grew up in a Fundamentalist Christian household. My parents truly, truly, truly worry about my eternal life. They worry that I may go to hell. For them, the way one gets to heaven is [believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accepting him as your Lord and Savior.]. You do not get to heaven by good works. You do not get to heaven by being a nice guy, a good mother, a good partner, and a good friend. You get to heaven through the above, just as SassyLeo's colleague was told. The expectation is that you will have a "relationship" with God/Jesus and live your life according to his Word (Bible).

The version of the Bible my parents use says that homosexuality is a sin. Now, under their church's teaching, you don't go to hell for sinning, your go for not accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. However, things get kind of sticky around the sin part b/c the assumption is that if you are choosing to do a habitual sin (sleep with the same sex and plan on repeating it), than one could theoretically question if a person is really a Christian b/c if you were a Christian you would not want to sin against God. Therefore, since I sleep with someone of the same sex, I must not (at minimum) have the "right kind" of relationship with God, so it calls into question if I will make it into heaven or not. Still with me? lol

My parents are worried about this...I mean WORRIED. They love their kid. And I truly believe that they love me unconditionally. I think that it is possible to love someone unconditionally (especially for a parent...well, this is what it seems like anyway but, I am not a parent). They are just freaked out about it. Have they wanted to meet my partners in the past? Well, I can't say that they were excited about it, but always responded with a yes to meeting them. Have I explained to them that it is important that if I have someone who looks to be a long term partner that they need to accept her and our relationship? Yep. Have they tried in this regard over the past few years? Yep.

But, do they still think that I am probably going to hell and do I think they most likely pray that I will become straight? Yep. Do I think that they "love me unconditionally"? Yep. I see it in soooo many ways, just too many times to discount.

So, Key, for me, my parents concern for my eternal life and their belief that I am sinning does not mean to me that they don't love me. In this case, it means that maybe they love me too much. If they didn't it wouldn't tear them up inside and it wouldn't "cause [my] father to pace the floors at night" (Yeah mom, thanks for THAT guilt! You get away with saying that ONCE!).

So no, their belief system does not impact their ability and natural inclination of unconditional love for me.

Side note: My parents are in no way, in your face, bible thumpers. They just do their thing and if someone asked them about their "thing", they would be happy to share it with them.

Side, side note: Damn, I never expected that I would ever share this much about my family and how their religion impacts things (and me) on a web site.

Thank you for this perspective.

Because I don't subscribe to traditional Christian beliefs about Jesus, Lord and Savior, sinning, etc....I do not understand and have a huge challenge even trying to *get* these belief systems.

I can feel from your post that they do love you and are worried. from that heart/head space, I can grasp better.

Doesn't mean I'm joining the Christian masses obviously....but it helps to process it :)

[SassyLeo]

Personally, I think only animals and little children can give unconditional love because they depend on us. No matter how you treat them, they'll always come back because they need you. As children get older, they learn to fend for themselves and unconditional love will no longer exist. Seems as we grow older, if you can't accept the good, bad and ugly in a partner, you'll never be able to give or receive unconditional love.

Unconditional love, is akin to purity of heart. It is a completely unselfish state of love. It isn't dependent on receiving anything in return. I agree that children and animals have this, also many Mothers. My children have tested me in about every way possible, and what it had taught me is that the love I have for them isn't dependent on who they choose to be, even how they act, or what they achieve. The love I have for them exists before any of that. I may not always like what they do, but no matter what, I love them, and would move heaven and earth on their behalf.

It's harder to feel that for someone you didn't give birth to, but I do believe it is possible. You have to be careful not to damage the Love before it grows strong, though.

:cat: Pashi

I can say with absolute certainty that no matter what my kids may ever do - my love for them would never change. I might not approve of whatever it is...and trust me I've already been there with the big one. lol. They are my kids, my heart and my purpose for being on this earth. For whatever shortcomings I might see in them, I think that means I have failed them in significant ways - yet they still love me. I would never tell them who or what they have to be for me to love them.

In my family I am probably closest to my grandparents. We have never spoken of my queerness. It was just understood. Do they love me? I suppose. I think they do it the only way they know how. To expect more of them doesn't seem fair. They're old. They believe what they believe. It would be disrespectful of me to try to change them in the same way it would be for them to try and change me. I don't like some of the choices they make either. I love them though and would do anything for them.

I have learned unconditional love from my kids. They taught me that. Because of them I can love my close friends unconditionally, my brother and even my grandparents. I certainly didn't have it from my mother growing up. There was nowhere else I would have learned it from. No matter what the significant people in my life may do - my love for them is always there.

As much as my friends tease me about being a mother (as in, they used to buy me Mother's Day cards ;)), and there is definitely a caretaker and mothering instinct in me, I am not a mother...and could not speak from this perspective.

But I am sure my mother could. When I think about it this way...well, I know that my parents love(d) me completely unconditionally. I am sure I *tested* them many a time. And they still loved me. And I am sure they taught me to also love this way. I admire you parents in this way. Do you think you would still love them unconditionally if they did something really awful? I guess it is hard to say "what if"....

I think about friends whom I've had over the years who have done things which I did not agree with, but I still loved them. I guess, unconditionally. I had a few friends who did really fucked up stuff and I chose to separate from the friendship. Was I then withholding the unconditional love?

[Sachita]

I'm generally a private person -- one of those "taciturn Midwesterners," perhaps. I like to think I just come from stoic German stock. Anyway, there's one thing in this I want to respond to, if I may, because I live it every day.

You pose the question: I wonder if I could love someone unconditionally if they did not accept me for who I am as a Queer person?

Well, I do. My parents, but moreso my mother. I have a complicated relationship with my mother. She does not accept me as a queer person. She wants to know nothing about my private life, which causes me great grief around the holidays, which I dread more than anything. My mother is very Catholic. I grew up in a very old school, kind of Old World atmosphere, bookended by my father's German/WASPish family on one end, people incapable of expressing emotion of any kind; and my mother's Polish/Catholic family on the other end -- loud, raucuous, hard-drinking, guilt-riddled people. I grew up in a small town with no queer role model in sight. I love my mother. I respect her. She introduces me to people based on my job, and as her daughter, which draws curious looks from strangers. She struggles to acknowledge any girl I bring home...don't get me wrong -- she's polite, civil and will ask the basic questions of her ("What do you do for a living? Do you have siblings? Where did you grow up?"). But my mother never will be a PFLAG member. She will never call me by my chosen name. She would never attend a ceremony should I, god help me, ever want to be married. She never asks me if I am seeing someone. She never asks about my girlfriend when I have one. I grew up surrounded by men who treated their women like queens. I grew up respecting women. As I said, I respect my mother. I'm protective of her. I open doors for her when I am around her. I get angry when people show a lack of respect toward her.

But she has no respect for me and my life. But I love her. She's my mother.

And that's really all I want to say about that.

Jake

I'm really sorry for this Jake. I have a friend who struggles with this and adores his family but just can't get them to accept. They call him by his birth name, a girl and make comments about his clothes, etc. He wasn't invited to his sisters wedding unless he wore something appropriate. He didn't go.

My family has always accepted me. They accept my lovers as family and they are even still in touch with a few ex's. I'm very grateful for that.

[Passionaria]

Do you think you would still love them unconditionally if they did something really awful? I guess it is hard to say "what if"....

I think about friends whom I've had over the years who have done things which I did not agree with, but I still loved them. I guess, unconditionally. I had a few friends who did really fucked up stuff and I chose to separate from the friendship. Was I then withholding the unconditional love?

Hi SassyLeo, sounds like you have wonderful parents! No wonder you are so lovely :rose:

Unfortunately, I can answer this, yes even when they mess up big time.....
As far as friends go? I personally don't think it is a good idea to love "everyone" unconditionally, just the ones who have proven themselves worthy of such a special gift. Unconditional integrity, yes, love no......

:cat: Pashi

[Sachita]

I have thought a lot about this in this past year.

I can honestly say that I love without conditions. I may not like someone and I do have standards on what I'll allow in my space. Even people I don't really like I love and feel true deep compassion. I'm grateful I don't have that type of emotion in me even when pushed to the limits. There is one person who pushed me pretty far, awful things and lies for years. I had anger inside so intense I truly wanted to hunt her down and beat her. Time passed and it went away. It bothered me that I even allowed it to bother me so much. If I stand up for myself, don't allow myself to be treated badly, look at you in your face and tell you to fuck off, it doesn't mean I also wouldn't give you the shirt off my back or that compassion has left me. It means I ain't taking any shit or I don't like you.

Everything has conditions per se, however the very essence of love is something that exist, has few rules and lives in every spirit. It can be very simple or complex.

[Bit]

I had a few friends who did really fucked up stuff and I chose to separate from the friendship. Was I then withholding the unconditional love?

Do you still love them? If you do, then I would say, no you weren't withholding love, even if you withdrew from the relationships.

For me, there is a difference between "loving someone unconditionally" and "accepting all their behaviors without question"... I believe it's certainly possible to love someone unconditionally, even if I have to tell them, "for the sake of my own mental health, I cannot be around your dysfunctional behaviors right now."

I think it's also possible to say, "I love you unconditionally, and for the sake of that love, I cannot allow you to behave badly without consequences." I believe this is the concept that Tough Love is built on--as well as the concept good parenting is built on.

[Sachita]

Do you still love them? If you do, then I would say, no you weren't withholding love, even if you withdrew from the relationships.

For me, there is a difference between "loving someone unconditionally" and "accepting all their behaviors without question"... I believe it's certainly possible to love someone unconditionally, even if I have to tell them, "for the sake of my own mental health, I cannot be around your dysfunctional behaviors right now."

I think it's also possible to say, "I love you unconditionally, and for the sake of that love, I cannot allow you to behave badly without consequences." I believe this is the concept that Tough Love is built on--as well as the concept good parenting is built on.

Thank you Bit. This is what i was trying to get across too but have brain problems today.

I would move mountains, sacrifice, do almost anything for my son, however most of the time i just don't like him.

I think some people I am close to are big assholes, truly need serious help but I still love them.

[adorable]

As much as my friends tease me about being a mother (as in, they used to buy me Mother's Day cards ;)), and there is definitely a caretaker and mothering instinct in me, I am not a mother...and could not speak from this perspective.

But I am sure my mother could. When I think about it this way...well, I know that my parents love(d) me completely unconditionally. I am sure I *tested* them many a time. And they still loved me. And I am sure they taught me to also love this way. I admire you parents in this way. Do you think you would still love them unconditionally if they did something really awful? I guess it is hard to say "what if"....

I think about friends whom I've had over the years who have done things which I did not agree with, but I still loved them. I guess, unconditionally. I had a few friends who did really fucked up stuff and I chose to separate from the friendship. Was I then withholding the unconditional love?


"Really awful" is such a relative term depending on the family. I could say with 100% certainty that even if they killed someone, tortured a puppy, killed a baby seal, poked out my left eye.....lol...that I would love them no matter what! I wouldn't like any of those things....just like I don't like my oldest daughters current facial piercing trend...but that's my kid - even if she can't make it thru a metal detector.

Bit is right that it is possible to love unconditionally and for your own mental stability cut someone out of your life. In fact sometimes the most loving thing you can do is walk away. There is a line between enabling and loving.

[AtLast]

Yes, unconditional love exists. I did experience it as a child and give it to my own kid and he came to me via a family death. However, there are so many that have not felt this kind of love from parents and family. Sure, I pushed some limits.

I think unconditional love with a relationship is possible, but not probable and shouldn't be. We all have deal-breakers that allow us to be true to ourselves and avoid abusive situations. At least, I hope we all do... marriage/partnerships are not the same as parenting and for the life of me, I don't get why some people believe unconditional love in relationships is healthy. Perhaps, the love felt will never leave (but transforms), but, if someone is not really a good match and a healthy steady-state can't be achieved, love can remain, but the relationship is not the best it can be and we all deserve the best it can be!

[Bit]

Thank you Bit. This is what i was trying to get across too but have brain problems today.

I would move mountains, sacrifice, do almost anything for my son, however most of the time i just don't like him.

I think some people I am close to are big assholes, truly need serious help but I still love them.

You're welcome, Sachita.

You know, your post here, combined with other people's posts here about their parents, really resonates with me. My biofamily is full of people who BELIEVE they love unconditionally even as they judge and judge and judge again. Like others have said, they think they love me and yet they don't even KNOW me--because it isn't safe for me to let them know me.

Do I love them all, even when they do things which are heinous to me, like praying against me, invoking God to control me? Yes.

Is my love unconditional? I dunno. If they behaved badly enough, they certainly could kill it off. But for now, while I love them, it doesn't depend on what they do.

Maybe that's the major blessing of the Geographical Cure. *wry smile*

[Sachita]

You're welcome, Sachita.

You know, your post here, combined with other people's posts here about their parents, really resonates with me. My biofamily is full of people who BELIEVE they love unconditionally even as they judge and judge and judge again. Like others have said, they think they love me and yet they don't even KNOW me--because it isn't safe for me to let them know me.

Do I love them all, even when they do things which are heinous to me, like praying against me, invoking God to control me? Yes.

Is my love unconditional? I dunno. If they behaved badly enough, they certainly could kill it off. But for now, while I love them, it doesn't depend on what they do.

Maybe that's the major blessing of the Geographical Cure. *wry smile*

I hate being judged. That sucks

I'm lucky. I feel loved. My sisters are my best friends and all it takes is three words- I need you. everything drops and we do whatever it takes. this love we have is the purest I've ever had. I'm not sure what happened to our kids. They're good kids just selfish.

I think that you reach a point in your life where your happiness is essential. Its not about anyone else and the people you want in your space are investing in that happiness. If they don't it doesnt mean you love them less, you just have your own agenda. it doesnt include them.

I have friends I've known and loved for 25 plus years. I've closed the door on many, my life has changed, I just cant have drama.

[JustLovelyJenn]

This too is a topic that hits very close to home for me. As I read all of your responses this morning I considered commenting on them, but I decided it would be easier just to tell my story.

My family is Mormon. And I don't mean a few generations, my great-great-great grandfather was a body guard to Joseph Smith and his family lived on the Smith Farm, they traveled to the Salt Lake valley with the early settlers. My grandfather was a bishop and my entire life has been enforced by that standard. I was REQUIRED to attend early morning bible study in high school with the threat of loosing all of my optional classes such as Choir and Drama if I didn't.

I didn't come out to my parents on purpose, and when it did happen, through a happen chance. (My father coded the medical records of my girlfriend from an ER visit and noted my name on the chart as her "Partner") It was 3 weeks before he would talk to me. My mother wasn't quite as difficult about it, but most certainly not in the acceptance side of the equation.

All of that said. I LOVE MY PARENTS, 100% unconditionally. I love them even when they say hurtful things, I love them even when I think about how they will react when I bring a partner to a family gathering. I love them with all my heart. I always have, its just built into how I love someone. If I choose to love you, I love you with everything I have to give.

I also know that they love me. That they try to look past and ignore things they thing are absolutely wrong with how I "choose" to live my life. I live with them now, with my two children, and we keep a precarious balance similar to the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. Every once in a while it will go to far to one side or the other and tempers will flair.

As hard as it is for me to admit this, because it sometimes hurt so much... I think I have to say that I believe my parents love me unconditionally. Because to me, that unconditional love means doing everything in your power to love a person, even when their very actions go against everything you would support. It means that no matter what I do, my parents will love me the best way they can. I know if I killed someone (which would never happen) that they would visit me in jail. I know that if I were a drug addict they would pay for my rehab. I know that even though I am gay they have me in their home and they help me with my children. That they would allow my partner to visit and would say little about what happened that they did not see.

Yes, I believe in unconditional love. Yes, I also believe that you can love someone unconditionally if you don't agree with their choices. In fact, I believe that is the hardest test of unconditional love.

[AtLast]

You're welcome, Sachita.

You know, your post here, combined with other people's posts here about their parents, really resonates with me. My biofamily is full of people who BELIEVE they love unconditionally even as they judge and judge and judge again. Like others have said, they think they love me and yet they don't even KNOW me--because it isn't safe for me to let them know me.

Do I love them all, even when they do things which are heinous to me, like praying against me, invoking God to control me? Yes.

Is my love unconditional? I dunno. If they behaved badly enough, they certainly could kill it off. But for now, while I love them, it doesn't depend on what they do.

Maybe that's the major blessing of the Geographical Cure. *wry smile*

Thinking about what you are saying about under certain circumstances, you would need to extracate yourself from bio-family. Your love might remain in some form, but, I think if it was for your best interest to cut them out of your life, it makes sense. Painful, but, I sure know people that have had to do this.

In fact, my niece came to a point in her life for about 4 yeras that she had just had it with my sister and stopped seeing or talking to her. She did allow her kids to continue to see my sister and brother-in-law (nieces step-father, an OK guy). Although, it hurt me to see this, I really felt that my niece had some good reasons for this and at that time, it was what she needed to do for herself. My sister was not giving her unconditional love and not viewing my niece at this time as the person she was and had not throughout her childhood. My sister was emotionally abusive to her daughter (and at times, physically abusive- she, herself was being abused as such by an alcoholic husband). They eventually worked through this, but, I still don't believe my sister recognizes my niece for the woman she is and that makes me sad. My sister did apologize and acknowledge her abusive parenting, however.

[Jaques]

This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.
all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?

yes i feel there is and its not "i will love you if you love me" or "if you do this for me i will do that for you"..............its when you love someone regardless of what they are, what they do or say - even when they dont love or are mean to you. It doesnt necessarily mean you like them, but the love is there anyway. Its often this way with your children, sometimes you really dont like the things they do or agree with them but you love em anyway.

.............so i feel to love unconditionally is to give love without expecting it in return..............

[Linus]

yes i feel there is and its not "i will love you if you love me" or "if you do this for me i will do that for you"..............its when you love someone regardless of what they are, what they do or say - even when they dont love or are mean to you. It doesnt necessarily mean you like them, but the love is there anyway. Its often this way with your children, sometimes you really dont like the things they do or agree with them but you love em anyway.

.............so i feel to love unconditionally is to give love without expecting it in return..............

Well said, Jaques.

I whole heartedly agree. Yes, we each have responsibilities in life but that shouldn't be held as part of what love is.

[hippieflowergirl]

a few years ago i had a conversation with someone so much smarter than i could ever hope to be who said he thought our job in life was to enter into certain "unconditional contracts" with the Universe, contracts whose purpose was to teach us what we needed to know. the conversation took place over several days but when it was over i was hooked on his idea.

most days i suck at being part of humanity. i dont understand how it works or how to fit in. i dont always feel a connection to the contracts i chose (unconditional acceptance, unconditional forgiveness, and unconditional love) but it's not the choices themselves that make me uncomfortable. i do that all on my own by making countless mistakes. but i never feel like i can go wholly wrong if i hang on to my agreements...even if i'm hanging on by my fingernails.

i know people who dont think it's possible to live unconditionally but i think they mistake "unconditional" with being a door mat and/or with altruism. but i never said living unconditionally meant someone could walk all over me and i never said i didnt get anything out of it.

unconditional acceptance, forgiveness and love are the easiest things in the world. they're just choices. all of life is simple. it's the things we try to "do" rather than our efforts to just "be" that cause the confusion. and then it's easy to give up too.

maybe we just need to keep choosing...not just once a week or every day...but every minute...every breath.

(shrug) sorry i'm just rambling like an idiot. i'm tired.

i like the freedom my three contracts give me. i like how much less complicated life became once the choices were made. the one stumbling block i run into from time to time is applying that same acceptance, forgiveness and love to myself.

[KayCee]

I believe the greatest form of unconditional love is between mother and child.

[Sachita]

a few years ago i had a conversation with someone so much smarter than i could ever hope to be who said he thought our job in life was to enter into certain "unconditional contracts" with the Universe, contracts whose purpose was to teach us what we needed to know. the conversation took place over several days but when it was over i was hooked on his idea.

most days i suck at being part of humanity. i dont understand how it works or how to fit in. i dont always feel a connection to the contracts i chose (unconditional acceptance, unconditional forgiveness, and unconditional love) but it's not the choices themselves that make me uncomfortable. i do that all on my own by making countless mistakes. but i never feel like i can go wholly wrong if i hang on to my agreements...even if i'm hanging on by my fingernails.

i know people who dont think it's possible to live unconditionally but i think they mistake "unconditional" with being a door mat and/or with altruism. but i never said living unconditionally meant someone could walk all over me and i never said i didnt get anything out of it.

unconditional acceptance, forgiveness and love are the easiest things in the world. they're just choices. all of life is simple. it's the things we try to "do" rather than our efforts to just "be" that cause the confusion. and then it's easy to give up too.

maybe we just need to keep choosing...not just once a week or every day...but every minute...every breath.

(shrug) sorry i'm just rambling like an idiot. i'm tired.

i like the freedom my three contracts give me. i like how much less complicated life became once the choices were made. the one stumbling block i run into from time to time is applying that same acceptance, forgiveness and love to myself.


oh wow - well put and honest. I feel like I am always struggling to keep that connection. Life sure has many lessons but even with this my ability to love only grows stronger.

we are human, however the question really is "are we conscious?" we all have days we go through the motions and sometimes its easier to ignore than deal with something. BUT you're right, considering our actions often, making it muscle memory, part of us, this clearly defines us. No matter how hard the truth is some humans are incapable of unconditional love. Its just something they can't wrap their heads around and probably not their fault.

love is a microcosmic evolution within us. our expression and the love we project feeds the collective. the moment we begin to understand this our world begins to open.

[Diva]

I have only known 1 person in my life who could love ANYone unconditionally.....that was my Mother.

I should BE so wise.

[Soft*Silver]

the only person on this earth I love inconditionally is my daughter. And she has seen fit to make me prove it over the years...laughing. From the moment that old soul was placed in my arms and I looked into the face that had just seen God, I knew I had nothing to give her. I was a woman spinning out of control in her life, drinking way too much, avoiding all the baggage from my past and was married to someone I didnt love. In her lake blue eyes I saw myself...and that Self of hers was so pure and divine, that I instantly resonated....

it took me many years to untangle the mess i was in but I did it. I did it to be worthy of being her parent. I wish I had done it before hand but honestly, I hadnt known that kind of love until she Saw me.

Now, it matters not how she behaves, or what she says, I love her. And she has done and said some pretty bad things over the years, but then again, sometimes I deserved it and other times, she just needed an emotional punching bag. I didnt stand to be that, and stepped out of the way, but I loved her regardless.

Now we have an incredible relationship. And her eyes are green now, not blue. But when I look into them I still see God and I see my connection there.

Loving someone unconditionally isnt about letting them treat you like a doormat. Its simply about loving them when and especially its the hardest time to love them...without losing yourself in the process..

[Sachita]

the only person on this earth I love inconditionally is my daughter. And she has seen fit to make me prove it over the years...laughing. From the moment that old soul was placed in my arms and I looked into the face that had just seen God, I knew I had nothing to give her. I was a woman spinning out of control in her life, drinking way too much, avoiding all the baggage from my past and was married to someone I didnt love. In her lake blue eyes I saw myself...and that Self of hers was so pure and divine, that I instantly resonated....

it took me many years to untangle the mess i was in but I did it. I did it to be worthy of being her parent. I wish I had done it before hand but honestly, I hadnt known that kind of love until she Saw me.

Now, it matters not how she behaves, or what she says, I love her. And she has done and said some pretty bad things over the years, but then again, sometimes I deserved it and other times, she just needed an emotional punching bag. I didnt stand to be that, and stepped out of the way, but I loved her regardless.

Now we have an incredible relationship. And her eyes are green now, not blue. But when I look into them I still see God and I see my connection there.

Loving someone unconditionally isnt about letting them treat you like a doormat. Its simply about loving them when and especially its the hardest time to love them...without losing yourself in the process..

OMG that made me cry. Our journey was close. My son is an adult now and we put each other through hell but we were always connected and very close today. It's hard for people to know that connection unless you're in it. Your desire to please you child no matter what. It's powerful beyond words.

[Isadora]

I love one person unconditionally. One.

[hippieflowergirl]

it took me a long time to finally fall in love. it wasnt easy to accept love for myself so i think i've always gone about finding it the wrong way and i hurt a lot of people in the process.

i've loved often and fortunately i'm still friends with those i've had long term relationships with, something for which i'm grateful. but i've only fallen in love once and that was the love that taught me what it was to be loved...or to allow myself to be loved...in return.

i always tried not to show weakness or ask for help. it was only when it was made clear that such revelations were expected of me that i understood that love was messy and ridiculous and sometimes confusing (but confusing only when i was getting in its way) and that it was okay that it be so.

i think unconditional acceptance and forgiveness and love requires us to be flawed and to not hide that fact the way so many people do. love isnt blind. love sees every flaw and oddity and mistake and moment of jackassery...and loves because of those things...because of the messy, ridiculous, confusing, unraveled parts rather than in spite of them. "in spite of" puts one partner in a "less than" place.

loving because of the struggle...loving because you can engage the struggle together...loving even when someone makes you so angry you cant see straight...that's unconditional. when love is more important than anger...that's unconditional. when love is more important than whatever false pride or moment of stupidity or lapse of judgment...that's unconditional. it doesnt mean that boundaries can be ignored or promises dont matter...it means that whatever anger or hurt or missteps there are dont have to overwhelm the reasons for loving.

no one comes equipped with this stuff. it's learning, learning that no matter how crazy a choice seems or how obvious a mistake should have been you still love without thinking less of the other because of those moments.

all anger is a "moment". all hurt is a moment. some moments are longer than others. but they're still just moments. if something is unhealthy or unsafe, we can accept and forgive (ourselves as well as others) and love...and then walk away.

unconditional love is always possible. always. because it's a choice. choice is easy. follow through takes more work...but choice is easy. once you choose, actively, sometimes with every breath...the follow through is easier too.

why would i deny myself the honor of sitting in the discomfort and pain and the heartache with the person i love the most? dont i want them to do that for me? we all want unconditional acceptance and forgiveness and love. when it comes time to step up and provide reciprocity...why should we find it so hard? it's just a choice. nothing can happen before we make the choice.

"unconditional" is just a way of breathing through the moments and of knowing that there is no mistake or misstep or lapse that anyone else can make that i cant (or havent) made as well.

* i was what you are, you will be what i am

[zannadyke]

I guess I believe in "unconditional love" to a point... For example, I will ALWAYS love my mom. I know she doesn't see eye to eye with me about many things, and will argue me to death about my lifestyle and life choices, but she is always there for me when I need her, and I know I can always count on her, just as she knows I can always count on her. With her, her love and giving comes with a price, she wants certain things in return... like things that she feels she needs to have some control over in my life, which i won't get into... but the deep down love that caring for me should I ever need it, should I ever be in trouble, should I ever be ill... that's ALWAYS there and it's there for me regarding her. I think deep down, THAT is what unconditional love is. I don't believe my mom would ever disown me based on a disagreement, nor would I disown her either. I feel the same way about my kids... they may disappoint me with choices they make in life or by saying things or other... but I will always love them no matter what.

[hippieflowergirl]

i think people are afraid to love unconditionally because loving unconditionally is hard...or because it sounds airyfairy and impossible. or worse...because of the inevitable pain involved in doing so.

being afraid of being hurt is a cop out. of course you're going to be hurt! you're in love with a human being arent you? who the hell are we to demand that no one hurt us? how can we tell people they have to be perfect when we havent managed it yet? i cannot understand the "you hurt me so now you're not trustworthy" mentality.

how anemic is the love that walks away when things get hard?

before you dust off your indignation...i'm not talking about domestic violence or choices that jeopardize safety. i'm talking about the human beings who fuck up, plain and simple, (and we ALL do it) and then find themselves suddenly single because the love they were part of couldnt hold up under pressure. it's anemic. that's the only word for it. anemic.

glass houses baby. glass houses.

"People are afraid of themselves, of their own reality; their feelings most of all. People talk about how perfect love is, but that's bullshit. Love hurts. Feelings are disturbing. People are taught that pain is evil and dangerous. How can they deal with love if they're afraid to feel? Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. That's honest. Give me that kind of love" Jim Morrison

[zannadyke]

yeah... what hippieflower said. I had a friend once... she was an ex as well, but all through our relationship I told her I loved her unconditionally, I guess because I know we are all human, we all make mistakes, and if we realize we were wrong when confronted, we should be forgiven and we should move on, OR we will make mistakes and not seem like it's a mistake in our eyes, but knowing there is always someone who will love you despite, is good to know. Anyway, this person has done some wicked things to me and my family over the course of the last 4 to 5 months... about 5 months ago, I text messaged her, and these were my last words to her ever: "I have not stopped loving you. I love you unconditionally. You may have disappointed me, and for my own sanity, as well as my daughter's, we need to move on (from the madness you are creating). Please know I will always love you, and if you ever ask for my forgiveness, I will always grant it." Since then, I have been forbidden to make contact with her because a contract in the courts... which is a complete other story not worth going into. My daughter wants revenge: typical response of most... I just want to move on.

[SassyLeo]

i think people are afraid to love unconditionally because loving unconditionally is hard...or because it sounds airyfairy and impossible. or worse...because of the inevitable pain involved in doing so.

being afraid of being hurt is a cop out. of course you're going to be hurt! you're in love with a human being arent you? who the hell are we to demand that no one hurt us? how can we tell people they have to be perfect when we havent managed it yet? i cannot understand the "you hurt me so now you're not trustworthy" mentality.

how anemic is the love that walks away when things get hard?

before you dust off your indignation...i'm not talking about domestic violence or choices that jeopardize safety. i'm talking about the human beings who fuck up, plain and simple, (and we ALL do it) and then find themselves suddenly single because the love they were part of couldnt hold up under pressure. it's anemic. that's the only word for it. anemic.

glass houses baby. glass houses.

"People are afraid of themselves, of their own reality; their feelings most of all. People talk about how perfect love is, but that's bullshit. Love hurts. Feelings are disturbing. People are taught that pain is evil and dangerous. How can they deal with love if they're afraid to feel? Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. That's honest. Give me that kind of love" Jim Morrison


Interesting when I read the part about being a "cop out", etc, I actually started thinking about how I have a hard time with the concept of being with someone forever. I've never been able to say it to anyone. Like "I will love you forever". I think it is unfair to promise "forever" and maybe "unconditional love". When I hear people say "we will be together forever", my gut reaction is not "woohoo, yay for you", it is more like: "right" *eyeroll*. Maybe I am cynic or a realist or whatever you want to call me... but I'm not sure I'm a subscriber. Life happens, people change, feelings change, etc. If I promise someone -forever- and then it turns out to be -forever for 5 years- there is this sense of having lied, or letting someone down or betrayal.

I'd rather say "I'm in *this* as long as we are happy and it *works* :D

People have told me that this school of thought is kind of like a "cop out"

Maybe it is...I'm on the fence.

[SuperFemme]

Interesting when I read the part about being a "cop out", etc, I actually started thinking about how I have a hard time with the concept of being with someone forever. I've never been able to say it to anyone. Like "I will love you forever". I think it is unfair to promise "forever" and maybe "unconditional love". When I hear people say "we will be together forever", my gut reaction is not "woohoo, yay for you", it is more like: "right" *eyeroll*. Maybe I am cynic or a realist or whatever you want to call me... but I'm not sure I'm a subscriber. Life happens, people change, feelings change, etc. If I promise someone -forever- and then it turns out to be -forever for 5 years- there is this sense of having lied, or letting someone down or betrayal.

I'd rather say "I'm in *this* as long as we are happy and it *works* :D

People have told me that this school of thought is kind of like a "cop out"

Maybe it is...I'm on the fence.


I hear where you are at.
So I have a question.
Would you ever get married?

I am asking because I had a lot of the same thoughts you do, and then the past five years (which went by in a blink but in retrospect can seem like a forever) have led me down a path with somebody that I felt like *forever* was a possibility.

No worries, I am still a cynic because with a terminal illness forever for me means something a lot different than it does to most people.

Mind you, if a miracle comes and I live another thirty years? I think I'd still find myself married to Cal.

Have I confused you yet? Because I confused me.

[SassyLeo]

I hear where you are at.
So I have a question.
Would you ever get married?

I am asking because I had a lot of the same thoughts you do, and then the past five years (which went by in a blink but in retrospect can seem like a forever) have led me down a path with somebody that I felt like *forever* was a possibility.

No worries, I am still a cynic because with a terminal illness forever for me means something a lot different than it does to most people.

Mind you, if a miracle comes and I live another thirty years? I think I'd still find myself married to Cal.

Have I confused you yet? Because I confused me.

I don't know if I would ever get married. I haven't really thought that much about it, to be honest. Hell, the concept of living with someone still is "iffy" for me ;) Well, I should say....for may years was "iffy" and now I can think about it without sweating and feeling nauseous.

So, I guess I am softening in my age :)

Not confused...I think I get it. And I think having a terminal illness puts a way different perspective on things :balloon:

[Andrew, Jr.]

I believe in uncondition love. I think babies and animals are automatically inclined to love unconditionally because they are closer to the other side. For adults it is harder to achieve.

I believe that unconditional love is unlimited and absolute. Think of the Amish people who chose to forgive the man who shot and killed the children in the one room school house. That is the kind of love that I am talking about.

[hippieflowergirl]

Interesting when I read the part about being a "cop out", etc, I actually started thinking about how I have a hard time with the concept of being with someone forever. I've never been able to say it to anyone. Like "I will love you forever". I think it is unfair to promise "forever" and maybe "unconditional love". When I hear people say "we will be together forever", my gut reaction is not "woohoo, yay for you", it is more like: "right" *eyeroll*. Maybe I am cynic or a realist or whatever you want to call me... but I'm not sure I'm a subscriber. Life happens, people change, feelings change, etc. If I promise someone -forever- and then it turns out to be -forever for 5 years- there is this sense of having lied, or letting someone down or betrayal.

I'd rather say "I'm in *this* as long as we are happy and it *works* :D

People have told me that this school of thought is kind of like a "cop out"

Maybe it is...I'm on the fence.



i smell what you're stepping in! (sorry, i'm enamored of that phrase these days) i dont know that "unconditional" is the same as or equals "we'll be together forever". i'm a great believer of the "as long as we're happy and it works" thing. when people break up it's not always because the love is gone. right?

i love fairly easily but i only fell in love...hard....exactly one time...and not in my youth either. it was earthshattering, gut-wrenching, heart-pounding, mind blowing, direction-reversing, insane, perfect, eyes-wide-open-to every flaw (for us both), forward my mail to crazytown love....and it's only happened that once. i am still in love that deeply and with that much devotion...and we are not "together" in except on that cellular level that shuttles you into perfect sync everytime we talk. no amount of hurt or distance or separation will ever change that for me.

that's unconditional for me.

the only other example i can think of is a woman i know whose son is a serial rapist. he's in jail for the third time, i hope forever. she hopes so too because his brain is so damn sick that she fears for people when he is not. and she loves him. she never wants to see him outside a jail. but she loves him like crazy.

that blows my little love out of the damn water. i freakin' want to grow up to be her. i want to know...i mean to know without exception...what it is like to love that perfectly.

[Sachita]

i smell what you're stepping in! (sorry, i'm enamored of that phrase these days) i dont know that "unconditional" is the same as or equals "we'll be together forever". i'm a great believer of the "as long as we're happy and it works" thing. when people break up it's not always because the love is gone. right?

i love fairly easily but i only fell in love...hard....exactly one time...and not in my youth either. it was earthshattering, gut-wrenching, heart-pounding, mind blowing, direction-reversing, insane, perfect, eyes-wide-open-to every flaw (for us both), forward my mail to crazytown love....and it's only happened that once. i am still in love that deeply and with that much devotion...and we are not "together" in except on that cellular level that shuttles you into perfect sync everytime we talk. no amount of hurt or distance or separation will ever change that for me.

Isn't that amazing? I've felt that a few times and although I miss being in love, I'm not sure I ever want to go back to that again. lol- it just overly complicates my already complicated life.

Loving isnt hard for me. Sharing space, my space is. To allow someone in that space again it would mean they literally worshiped the ground I walked on, existed to please me and adored me. They would need to be very accommodating to my needs. Otherwise I'm happy spending time with people I love but I want and need my own space. I think my last time really in love was it for me. It would take a lot for me to open that door completely and I'm not sure God makes many humans like that,

[Bit]

the only other example i can think of is a woman i know whose son is a serial rapist. he's in jail for the third time, i hope forever. she hopes so too because his brain is so damn sick that she fears for people when he is not. and she loves him. she never wants to see him outside a jail. but she loves him like crazy.

that blows my little love out of the damn water. i freakin' want to grow up to be her. i want to know...i mean to know without exception...what it is like to love that perfectly.

Ohhhmigawd, I personally cannot imagine anything more agonizing! I'd never want to know what that feels like. It's hard enough loving ordinary people when they act like jerks... loving someone who does things which could actually be classified as evil? omg no... I would find that to be utter torture.

My heart goes out to anyone who finds herself in a situation like that! I honestly don't think I can imagine anything harder.

[JustJo]

I previously posted this "elsewhere", but it's still true for me...

Anyway...unconditional love...we talk about it as if it's an ideal, a goal, some loftier version of love than the plain ol' everyday kind. And I'm not entirely sure that's true. Don't get me wrong...it sounds lovely. And it is, in fact, the kind of love I have for my child (where I think it's appropriate and well-placed). But I think that unconditional love between adult partners is somehow often misplaced...

It seems like every time I read or hear someone say "unconditional love" in the context of an adult relationship, it's immediately followed by a list of horrible and even hateful behavior. Why is that? Why do we think that because we love someone unconditionally that it means we should accept mental, physical and emotional abuse at their hands? Why does it mean that we respond like that dog...wagging our tails after being kicked? It's almost as if, by picking the partners we picked, they use our "unconditional love" as a license to mistreat us, rather than appreciate us...and that's just wrong.

For me, unconditional love is what I want to do inside of a fundamentally sound, respectful, (and I suppose conditional) relationship.

Let me (at least try to) explain...
If my "partner" abuses me, cheats on me, kicks me when I'm down...then they aren't my partner. We don't have a love relationship. What we have is an abusive relationship, a using relationship or a messed up game. And, if that's what we have, then I'm gone. For me, there is no call to be loving to someone who is abusive in return. Period. Again...just for me...but that's absolutely and completely non-negotiable. And yes...that's a condition. My conditions for being with me are honesty, faithfulness, reciprocated love, no abuse of any kind and true commitment.

Now, if we have those things...then what we have is a loving relationship. And, inside of that, I will love unconditionally. I will love you when you're sick, in a bad mood, struggling with insecurities or confusion, and any or all of your human frailties and foibles. And I expect that you would love me unconditionally and do the same for me. I do not expect perfection or even consistent good behavior...we are human and fallible and magnificently flawed...and I can embrace all of that. I expect that there will be times that I am carrying the whole burden, and times that you will. I expect that there will be times that I don't feel loving, and times that you won't. I expect that we will disagree and argue and struggle with things between us. I expect that we will both screw up and have to ask forgiveness from each other. And all of those things are fine and okay and even good...because they forge a connection...a connection that allows us to love and trust each other unconditionally and completely. (f)

[chefhottie25]

I believe in uncondition love. I think babies and animals are automatically inclined to love unconditionally because they are closer to the other side. For adults it is harder to achieve.

I believe that unconditional love is unlimited and absolute. Think of the Amish people who chose to forgive the man who shot and killed the children in the one room school house. That is the kind of love that I am talking about.


I am with you Andrew. I have recently realized that a dear friend of mine loves me unconditionally. She loved me when I was not able to stay clean from heroin and cocaine. I did some pretty horrible things. Now that I am in recovery, I have recognized that she has always found me loveable. I recently thanked her for loving me unconditionally...and she said it wasn't unconditional...she said that she has just loved me unflinchingly. Whatever you call it...it does exsist...and it feels amazing.

[Pretty Woman]

Let me start by saying that I don't believe that altruism exists. What does that have to do with unconditional love you may wonder? In my mind they are inextricably linked since both assume that the person on the giving end doesn't really get anything from it and that in many ways the person on the receiving end can act as they please, for better or for worse. We are humans, blinded by our true motives, looking always for some deeper recognition or validation, basically just wanting to feel relevant on this planet and in this life.
So...I've come to the conclusion that the only person I can unconditionally love is me. And I don't mean in a narcissitic way. I mean that when I mess up, get angry, act out, am selfish, that I can investigate my true motives and acknowledge them, set things straight, give myself a little break and resolve to not keep making the same mistakes over and over again. It's only in that way that I have been able to begin to see clearly that others are also human beings, that it is truly difficult to exact change from the inside out and that I can't ever control another person by my unconditional love dressed up as a doormat, a bossy wog or in any other way that I choose to call things love. I agree with Jo, unconditional love for another is meted out on a daily basis...disagreement, discussion, compromise and sometimes moving on.

[MrSunshine]

it's never unconditional and it's never free....everything comes with a disclaimer or tag these days.

[Starbuck]

Only dogs & pupppies love unconditionally, and that's if you feed them!!

Dogs and puppies love unconditionally, period. Cats and kitties love CONDITIONALLY if/when you feed them.

[ravfem]

i have unconditional love for my oldest friend, CLS. She is the one who taught me about unconditional love, without even knowing it.

Her life is very very different than mine, and the last time i visited with her, she was mentally ill (drug induced paranoid schizophrenia) from 20 years of drug abuse & addiction.

Long ago, i learned how to love and accept her as is, without judging her life choices or punishing her because she did things i didn't approve of. my choice was love her as is or don't continue to be in her life (my own conclusions, nothing ever said by her).

It wasn't an easy process for me, but slowly i learned how to give her love unconditionally. And i am ever thankful that i did that, for her and for myself.

Loving someone, in a romantic sense, unconditionally is much more difficult for me. But i'm workin on it :)

[imperfect_cupcake]

it really depends on your definition of love doesn' it?

my brother is a sick man. he's severely abusive, has mental health issues and sexually and physically tortured me for years.

I love him. I care about how he is. I don't EVER want him around me if I can help it (I tolerate him at funerals and I'm nice to him at those instances, otherwise I politely leave). I'm glad he got lots of very good treatment and he's now back at school.

No I don't forgive him. But I love him and care that he's doing well and that mom loves him and gives him lots of support, even though he's not exactly kind to her, verbally.

love as a feeling of care, yes. Love as in support and interaction? no.

But then I grew up knowing that people can love you, really love you, yet treat you like shit because of how incapable they are. and it doesn't mean just cause they love you that you have to put up with any of it.

love is a feeling. it doesn't nessecisarily mean much else. Just like anger, it can be constructive or self harming. it depends on the expression.

[Sam]

Only dogs & pupppies love unconditionally, and that's if you feed them!!

My son loves me unconditionally, that is where i am learning to be a better person :)

[MysticOceansFL]

It is as long as it's not taken for granted of! I would think.

[proximitywithoutintimacy]

I believe in unconditional love; however, I also believe that unconditional love is very rare, when it comes to being IN love. It's what sets apart love from true love, in my opinion. Maybe I'm just talking in circles at this point in my rant, but honestly, I love someone who might possibly be the most broken human being I've ever known... for her, my love, I give my heart.

You may all vomit now at my sappiness ;) LOL.

[Chancie]

I don't know what people mean when they say they believe in unconditional love. Do they really mean that they would love someone no matter what they do? For me, that doesn't sound healthy.

I love Pete, and I think she might be the one I want to marry, because I do want to get married again. I probably wouldn't wish her ill if she did something that made it impossible for us to be together, and of course time might reveal that we aren't right together, but I love her with all the complicated feelings that make me human.

I wish I loved myself unconditionally. :stillheart:

[Julien]

Unconditional love is the love I have for my son.

[MsTinkerbelly]

If I love someone it is forever. The type of love may change, but I still love them.

[IrishGrrl]

My love is conditional yes. I may love someone, but withdraw my actions of love. I can love from afar, and I have stopped loving, it's not an intentional thing, it just happens. The only unconditional love I have is for my children.

[Soft*Silver]

I have changed my mind from my original post. I said I offered unconditional love to only one person and that be my daughter.I have decided that it is not a parents responsibility to beholden to have to love their child unconditionally if their child does not deserve it. I have borne witness to several examples as of late, of adult children who in my opinion, did not deserve their parent's love. Call me cold. I would sever my love in a heart beat had it been my child.

I seem to find myself becoming more black and white as I age. Less grey. Far less grey. I think I have given people in my past so many opportunities that I realize now I wasted so much of my precious life on them, days wasted that I cannot get back now. I have lived more life than I have left to live, and no one is going to get more from me than they deserve ever again. I wont mistake an ass for a horse again, trust me on that...lol. Someone said they wanted to love themselves unconditionally. I think thats what I am doing. Hands down. I come first.

[Tcountry]

It all depends on your definition of love...is it a feeling or an action...?
If it is a feeling...it is possible to love...even when u r upset with a decision that person has made.
If it is an action...what r u willing to do/go thru if that person really needed u?
The only limit to unconditional love is the human condition...& what each is willing to do and/or put up with...
Your limits define your conditions

[Miss Scarlett]

Many years ago this was part of an all night discussion with a dear friend (now departed). We concluded that there is such a thing but that it is different for everyone.

My love (whether that be for my friends, family or partner) is one that loves and accepts people "warts and all." It's not something that I will take away if there is a disagreement, parting of ways or even if someone hurts me. I cannot just turn off my heart, just cannot...there will always be love there.

This same friend wrote a beautiful song about his love for his friends here are the lyrics:

Brother's Keeper
Rich Mullins and Beaker

Now the plummer's got a drip in his spigot
The mechanic's got a clank in his car
And the preacher's thinking thoughts that are wicked
And the lover's got a lonely heart
My friends ain't the way I wish they were
They are just the way they are

And I will be my brother's keeper
Not the one who judges him
I won't despise him for his weakness
I won't regard him for his strength
I won't take away his freedom
I will help him learn to stand
And I will, I will be my brother's keeper

Now this roof has got a few missing shingles
But at least we got ourselves a roof
And they say that she's a fallen angel
I wonder if she recalls when she last flew
There's no point in pointing fingers
Unless you're pointing to the truth

And I will be my brother's keeper
Not the one who judges him
I won't despise him for his weakness
I won't regard him for his strength
I won't take away his freedom
I will help him learn to stand
And I will, I will be my brother's keeper

I will be my brother's keeper
Not the one who judges him
I won't despise him for his weakness
I won't regard him for his strength
I won't take away his freedom
I will help him learn to stand
And I will, I will be my brother's keeper

[Chancie]

I've been thinking about this thread a lot.

I've never been the sort of girl who thinks Heathcliff is romantic; I've always thought that he was a reactive jerk and that Cathy was manipulative and thoughtless.

But I suspect I am the exception.

On the other hand, I have a huge amount of patience with the shenanigans of naughty teenagers, but very little patience with the thoughtless sharp tongues of some adults I've 'met' online.

I've never cheated on anyone to whom I have been committed.

Again, I suspect I am the exception.

When members say they will always love someone they have loved at one time, what does that mean?

If that is true, why have you (in general) cheated on your partner? Why have you taken expensive gifts when you know you aren't fully committed to your partner? Why do you share dramatic private details of your relationship?

[Pixie]

I think it is possible for unconditional love to exist within disagreement...

I know for me, I didn't care if parts of my family didn't agree with my orientation...because I love them.

I don't agree with things my mother put me in the middle of, and the decisions she made and things going on including her life choice...but I love her unconditionally and will continue to...regardless of her choices...

just my opinion

[Miss Scarlett]

I've never cheated on anyone to whom I have been committed.

Neither have I, although I have had a few people cheat on me.


When members say they will always love someone they have loved at one time, what does that mean?

For me the intimacy of love (not sex but love) occupies a place very deep within my heart. There is no way that anyone who finds that place can not leave a part of themself behind regardless of why they are no longer in my life.

[JAGG]

Sorry , I hate to break the news to you, but it is not possible for humans to love unconditionally. It's a very romantic notion, and a nice fantasy, but it's not humanly possible. No matter how deeply we love someone there are always condtions of some sort, there is always a boundry, we simply do not have the capacity, not in our design. You can wish or hope or kid yourself, but it's just not possible.

[princessbelle]

Oh i certainly believe in unconditional love....

I believe that if you truely love someone unconditionally, family...lovers...whatever, it just happens and not something that you necessarily try to achieve. Because it can possibly make things harder on you in the long run. IMO: It is either there or it isn't. Doesn't mean you have to even ever see this person again in your life, agree with them, approve of them or associate with them.

But, if you have it for someone...

you.

just.

know.

it.

[Strappie]

Sorry , I hate to break the news to you, but it is not possible for humans to love unconditionally. It's a very romantic notion, and a nice fantasy, but it's not humanly possible. No matter how deeply we love someone there are always condtions of some sort, there is always a boundry, we simply do not have the capacity, not in our design. You can wish or hope or kid yourself, but it's just not possible.

Sorry Jagg, but I love my family Unconditionally... I don't ask them for anything in return well wait I take that back yes I do.. I ask for their love in return and the same goes for my friends... Now if you call that a fantasy then that is you're belief ... My belief is that yes we can!

No matter what "research proves" ......

I will believe what I want to... :)

[Julie]

Unconditional love is tricky... In theory it is possible for me. In reality - I am human.

I believe we all *want* to believe we have unconditional love - but always, when there are expectations in a relationship, the possibility of the unconditional love breaking is there.

I believe I love my children unconditionally... However, if they were to harm another human being (not speaking self-defense) or rape a woman -- would I continue to love them unconditionally? Probably not. I would probably turn them in and they know this. Unconditional love would prevent me from doing the right thing (in this case.)

"I loved you unconditionally." Notice the 'ed - How many times have you heard this after a breaking relationship? Or even said this? If you loved me unconditionally, then you would still be loving me with the same unconditional love you claimed.

People by nature will place conditions on most everything. It is not a flaw or an imperfection - it just is.

Or maybe I am just not so romantic to believe in the notion.

I have never cheated on another person in my life -- Not because I loved them unconditionally, but because I loved them and respected them... But most importantly, because I love me and respect myself. I would not be able to do either, if I did.

[Diva]

I believe in unconditional love.
My Mother loved me unconditionally. My Father did not.
I love my daughter unconditionally even when she is being an ass. She's young. She's made some crazy choices, but that does not diminish my love for her. I tell her often that there is nothing ~ NOTHING ~ she can say or do to cause me to stop loving her......I believe there is a certain kind of confidence one gains when they know in their hearts that SOMEone loves them no matter what.

That doesn't mean that I will always LIKE her...<smile> But I will ALways love her.

There are several others in my life whom I love unconditionally. And they know it. :)

[MysticOceansFL]

Yes there can be unconditional love as long as it's not abused in anyway just like many different levels of love.

[QueenofSmirks]

People often confuse love (an emotion) for behavior. You can love someone (emotion) and still leave them (behavior). You can (and people often do) love someone, despite the things they have done. You can still love someone who treats you badly, you can still love someone and be appalled at their behavior toward someone or something else. Loving someone does not mean putting up with their bullshit, or being okay with or forgiving everything they think, do, or say. Love is an emotion, and it can and does exist for some people outside of behavior.

"Unconditional love" means "I love you, no matter what". It doesn't imply love for eternity and it doesn't mean "I will always stay in a relationship with you, no matter what."

[JDeere]

No, not in my opinion, but this is my short and simple answer.

[Lyte]

No such thing as conditional love... not from humans anyway.

[~ocean]

LOLOL lyte I can't stop laughing cause ur right not from humans soo if someone loves u like ur a puppy they love u unconditonaly lolol

[bmer]

LOLOL lyte I can't stop laughing cause ur right not from humans soo if someone loves u like ur a puppy they love u unconditonaly lolol

As a mother. Yes there is such a thing as unconditional love. The rest of the world... I am still working on that.

[C0LLETTE]

There is nothing my daughter could do or be that would make me stop loving her...NOTHING.

[anotherbutch]

Unconditional love to me means.... my 2 daughters and my my grandkids.... that's the only experience I've had with Unconditional love.

[Martina]

I agree that there is in the parent-child bond.

[kittygrrl]

Unconditional means you never stop loving-that doesn't mean you approve or like-but love never dies-the universe is built on it

[~ocean]

Unconditional means you never stop loving-that doesn't mean you approve or like-but love never dies-the universe is built on it

Well said ~ you are the giver of that unconditional love ~ and at times a receiver :) ~ as long as you have felt that forgiving, accepting ,unjudgmental love u felt "unconditional love" ~

[kittygrrl]

Well said ~ you are the giver of that unconditional love ~ and at times a receiver :) ~ as long as you have felt that forgiving, accepting ,unjudgmental love u felt "unconditional love" ~

I agree..real love doesn't end..it may change, but that is it's nature..it's the only thing we will have when we leave here

[imperfect_cupcake]

hmn. I've never had it in the romantic sense. No wait. That's wrong. I love my exwife. I care that she is ok. I wish she is happy. And I like to know she's doing ok. But I find her irritating, irresponsible, gets on my very last nerve, drives me batshit, and I wish she would get her shit together. I also can't truly forgive what she did. I don't mind being in light contact with her on occasion in fb, but I don't want to hang out with her, I don't want her interfering with my shit, but I do love her.

Love as an emotion on its own doesn't mean much. I have been absurd by people who loved me. Sincerely and definitely felt that emotions of love for me. It's someone's personality and functioning that matter. Emptions are just emotions. There is nothing wrong with anger. It's an emotion. It tells us something is wrong. It's how we use it, cope with it, and function with it. Love is no different.

Emotions are just feelings. They don't do things, they only occur. People enact emotions and those enactments matter. Not the emotions themselves.

ASo fucking what if someone loves me. Do they hit me? Do they lie? Are they a drunk? It makes about as much difference for someone who loves me and never acts on it as it doesn't for someone who loves me and never acts on it by neglecting me.

Someone could love you very much and it doesn't matter because you don't know, they don't interact with you and they keep their distance. Someone could love you and sexually assault you. Values and enactment is what matter. Emotions just are.

Signed
A complete pragmatist

[Shystonefem]

I believe that there is such thing as unconditional love. I love my family that way. I don't always like them but I love them.

I don't believe that "love never dies". I was very much in love with my ex but not at all now.
Caring if someone dies and loving then is very different, IMHO

[kittygrrl]

I believe that there is such thing as unconditional love. I love my family that way. I don't always like them but I love them.

I don't believe that "love never dies". I was very much in love with my ex but not at all now.
Caring if someone dies and loving then is very different, IMHO

Romantic love is sometimes different, personality, life experience, maturity, etc makes it very individual. I can't comment on the experience of others just speaking of my own.

[FireSignFemme]

The only problem I have with the idea of unconditional love is that these days, so many people’s interpretation of what that actually means, seems to involve not holding others responsible/making them accountable for their behavior.

[kittygrrl]

Unconditional love is known as affection without any limitations, it can also be love without conditions. This term is sometimes associated with other terms such as true altruism, or complete love. Each area of expertise has a certain way of describing unconditional love, but most will agree that it is that type of love which has no bounds and is unchanging.

It doesn't imply those who enjoy it enjoy no accountability. The whole point is, just because someone does unkind, mean, disrespectful things does not mean you stop loving them. If you love conditionally then you can't claim it was ever unconditional.

[Shystonefem]

Unconditional love stops after abuse. When love changes into fear, how is it possible to love and fear someone at the same time?

I have loved unconditionally, until I realized that I was afraid of the person. I don't think you can love someone that hurts you over and over.

[TL1]

I agree that the child and parent love is unconditional.


Other than that I'm not so sure. I can't help but think realistically on this. No matter how much you love someone is there not lines they could cross? I don't think love can go away in the blink of an eye but if someone crosses lines.... Combine that with time and it could very well go away. When you say unconditional I think literal. I do have a child and a family and there are lines that could be crossed. (Abuse. Murder. Etc) Horrific thoughts yes but because of these things I don't think I can say unconditional. Sure I can say if these things are not done but then that's not unconditional. Don't get me wrong. I believe in love and I believe love can be forever. Just not unconditional outside of my first sentence.

[JDeere]

Only unconditional love that I have received is from my dog. She doesn't judge, doesn't hate on the choices I make.

[Martina]

Only unconditional love that I have received is from my dog. She doesn't judge, doesn't hate on the choices I make.

Hello Kitty would love you unconditionally.

[JDeere]

Hello Kitty would love you unconditionally.

Ahahahaha no not HK. Please no not HK.

[*Anya*]

Unconditional love stops after abuse. When love changes into fear, how is it possible to love and fear someone at the same time?

I have loved unconditionally, until I realized that I was afraid of the person. I don't think you can love someone that hurts you over and over.

I am going to add cheating to the mix. I loved my ex unconditionally but a couple of heartbreaks later, my heart turned to stone and the love got crowded out.

[kittygrrl]

Everyone's ideas about unconditional love are appreciated but I have to say while you may believe you love someone unconditionally until they do something to cross the line, then it is not unconditional at all but very conditional. It may come as a rude awakening that you did not love them as much as you thought you did because you never believed they would ever cross your boundary but, as long as you have a boundary it's not unconditional. However, I think we are capable of loving someone very much and yet if they cross a boundary -infidelity, abuse, murder then we find we love less or not at all-this has nothing to do with unconditional love-

Note to JD..I believe your doggie loves you unconditionally..pets trust us, depend us, and teach us how to love back:candle:

[Bubala]

I'm still searching for it within myself and within the universe... I believe in it like a child that blindly believes in a fairytale or magic... I cannot provide empirical proof of its existence... I cannot even rationalize it as a transcendental phenomenon in Kantian sense... Yet, I choose to believe that unconditional love exists somewhere, between some entities, that it can be felt and provided under some magical circumstances, without questions, without conditions and without debts of ethics or ratio.

[Gemme]

Everyone's ideas about unconditional love are appreciated but I have to say while you may believe you love someone unconditionally until they do something to cross the line, then it is not unconditional at all but very conditional. It may come as a rude awakening that you did not love them as much as you thought you did because you never believed they would ever cross your boundary but, as long as you have a boundary it's not unconditional. However, I think we are capable of loving someone very much and yet if they cross a boundary -infidelity, abuse, murder then we find we love less or not at all-this has nothing to do with unconditional love-



Building off of what you said....

If someone betrays your trust it has nothing to do with you not loving them 'as much as you thought you did'. A betrayal is devastating and there are deep and long-lasting effects from it but it says nothing about the person betrayed and everything about the person who committed the act.

I think, as humans, we should extend certain courtesies to one another: honesty, loyalty and integrity in all we do with or for them. If we do not exhibit these traits, it's not on the other person or a judgement of their love, but falls solely on the perpetrator of the betrayal.

I believe that love should have conditions such as the boundaries you mentioned. Having personal boundaries is a way we protect and honor and love ourselves. If we cannot love ourselves enough to do that, we surely cannot love anyone else in a healthy and realistic way.

[Shystonefem]

Everyone's ideas about unconditional love are appreciated but I have to say while you may believe you love someone unconditionally until they do something to cross the line, then it is not unconditional at all but very conditional. It may come as a rude awakening that you did not love them as much as you thought you did because you never believed they would ever cross your boundary but, as long as you have a boundary it's not unconditional. However, I think we are capable of loving someone very much and yet if they cross a boundary -infidelity, abuse, murder then we find we love less or not at all-this has nothing to do with unconditional love-

Note to JD..I believe your doggie loves you unconditionally..pets trust us, depend us, and teach us how to love back:candle:



I disagree. I believe that unconditional love, just like love, can fade away. I can (and did) love someone through betrayal, abuse, etc and even after I was away from the situation, I loved that person but it fades and goes away.

I don't think unconditional love has to be forever to be unconditional. I think the presence of it is enough to qualify as unconditional.

I think it goes back to what imperfect_cupcake said, the definition of unconditional love is subjective to one's own interpretation.

[TL1]

I disagree. I believe that unconditional love, just like love, can fade away. I can (and did) love someone through betrayal, abuse, etc and even after I was away from the situation, I loved that person but it fades and goes away.

I don't think unconditional love has to be forever to be unconditional. I think the presence of it is enough to qualify as unconditional.

I think it goes back to what imperfect_cupcake said, the definition of unconditional love is subjective to one's own interpretation.


I can see this point as well. Makes sense to me. It's unconditional WHILE its there.

Hmmmm........ But then if something killed it.....


I like these different aspects. Leaves me thinking. :)

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think love outside of immediate family *should* be conditional. I think that would be very healthy. I would love my parents even if they killed someone and ate them. Would I want to hang out with them? Probably not. But I would still love them, care very much they were ok in jail. Probably check up on them. Probably still visit them.

My birth mum is crazy, crazy and a hoarder. She will hord animals if she can and that is a form of animal abuse. She doesn't understand or believe this hurts them. I know why she got this way and it breaks my heart. I want her to be happy and I wish she didn't feel the way she does or do the things she does. I still love her.

My brother is a literal psychopath. He was diagnosed many years ago. He has been under a lot of treatment by cutting edge people. I don't know if he has stopped being a danger to others. He was exceptionally abusive to me growing up. I don't believe that its something he can help more than a shark can help its nature. I can't blame a bear for being a bear, nor a shark for being a shark. His brain is literally different from ours. He was born a preditor.
I do love him in that I have love feelings for him, as well as anger, disgust, etc. I probably think its in the community's best interest to shoot him.

I remember seeing a season of a tv show where a mother learns that her son is raping and killing women. He's an odd sort and skinny and get bullied a lot by the local lads. And she realised if he goes to jail, he will be severely bullied for the rest of his life. Like he has been bullied since that age of 6 by other kids. So instead she kills him. I think this is a perfect demonstration of a) unconditional love b) still understanding the person is accountable, even though they may not be fully functional to blame.

Brilliant show by the way. One of my favourites. The main character is a late middle aged woman cop who is a grandmother. And she is AWESOME.

Anyway, unconditional love means you love unconditionally, in my books. It doesn't mean you can't have the desire to stop their monsterous behaviour.

But all other kinds of love is still meaningful to most people.

I think our lack of names for the different kinds of love is a serious linguistic handicap. The Ancient Greeks had about 30 names for love to describe love in all of its different shades and complexities. You could love people in more than one way, you weren't limited to one type of love per user. The big seven are:

Eros
Philia
Ludos
Agape
Pragma
Storge
Philautia

[Kätzchen]

The Greek term -- Storge -- is most likely the type of love I tend to favor. Not on an biased type of way, but because of the way it develops over time, and the way it grows in an organic kind of way.

I relate to your post cupcake... like, my family was sooooo dysfunctional and still is...., but although I have loving feelings for some of my family, I usually draw the line and make distinctions about the way I can love them, or not.

Love is such a tricky thing. But, love is also an emotion, and like emotions, if left unregulated or left unchecked or not held to accountability, can be, most likely, as hurtful and damaging as its other emotive counterparts (ie, hate, scorn, blissfulness, happyness, et al).

I think, in my case, I view love as something that most likely is not unconditional. I think conditions are driving factors in emotive processes.... and if left unchecked and not regulated or held to reasonable limits or levels of accountability, can have any number of outcomes (+\-).

[Bubala]

Unconditional = without ANY conditions, without limitations and without expiration date, thus it means fully, truly and forever.

As humans, we exist in a finite state of constant conditioning. We condition our own selves... We condition everything.

As much as I believe in human goodness. I haven't felt or witnessed such love beyond hypotheses. Life is constant evolution with respect to one's emotional intelligence, I'm working on my own ability to love the universe and myself better, working for progress and against regression every day.

[Kätzchen]

***** bumping for a good Sunday read *****

[MsTinkerbelly]

My wife turned to me last week and said, "thank you for making me feel loved unconditionally".

Dang, I fell in love with her all over again.

[kittygrrl]

I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts here and it has made me examine my own ...Unconditionally loving is subject to one's personal scope of experience and idealism. We are imperfect beings and love accordingly...The universe understands..Is there a more perfect love? Probably, but I think everyone (on this planet) has boundaries and we do the best we can..I'm still working on mine:tea:

[Chad]

I don't believe in unconditional love. Everything has conditions.

This conclusion is based on experience.

[girl_dee]

oh i love this.

i think on a romantic level yes its conditional. If someone is abusive to me, i cannot love them, for example.

[Kätzchen]

Sexual and emotional abuse are an unfortunate part of experiences I've dealt with in my life. And, in many ways, as I have learned, via personal therapy or counseling or by active involvement in support groups for DV or Alcohol driven issues (I attend Al-anon), that I have an acute awareness concerning issues which are often connected with issues of abuse.

I stand by prior posts I have made in the past concerning ideas about if love is conditional or unconditional. For me, love --- whether it's platonic by nature or by romantic design, is *not* unconditional. Love is operant on conditions, conditions which must be present in order for an healthy type love to thrive or survive. If optimal conditions for love to exist are not present (or met), then in my case, love can't bloom.

:candle::candle: :candle:

[BullDog]

Yes, obviously unconditional love means different things to different people. I think you can love someone for who they are and what you have shared together and not for the things they do or do for you or how they feel about you. I love 3 of my exes unconditionally. I don't expect anything from them and don't expect them to love me unconditionally. My love just reached a very deep level with them and even though we didn't work out as a couple I still have a special place in my heart for them that will never change no matter how they feel about me and how much I might disagree with some of their opinions about me, lol. I also would do whatever I could for them if there is anything I could do to help. I have also never been severely abused or mistreated by any of them, so that has not been put to the test.

I feel my girlfriend and I love each other unconditionally. That we love each other for who we are, including our flaws, and what we share and that we will always love each other and be there for each other even if we were not to work out as a couple. I feel her unconditional love very strongly, stronger than I have with any other person. We are still a new couple and only time will tell, but I do believe we have unconditional love - by my personal definition of what that means.

[Shystonefem]

I feel my girlfriend and I love each other unconditionally. That we love each other for who we are, including our flaws, and what we share and that we will always love each other and be there for each other even if we were not to work out as a couple. I feel her unconditional love very strongly, stronger than I have with any other person. We are still a new couple and only time will tell, but I do believe we have unconditional love - by my personal definition of what that means.

I agree 100%

[Soft*Silver]

ahhh....the love I have for my grandchildren is unconditional. As is the love for my daughter. Those are givens.

as for romantic relationships, I think over the years I have learned there is one condition that needs to be established for the relationship to work. No abuse. Everything else is negotiable. And re-negotiable.

Also in the past few decades, I have loved 2 people that just chewed hard on that love like it was a poor cut of meat. I loved them anyway. I walked away only because my sanity was at risk. They werent abusive but loving them hurt me. I have now made that a condition...that if in loving someone hurts me, I need to leave. I need to love myself at all times, even at the cost of not loving someone else...

loving me, I have decided over the years, is unconditional