Infidelity

[Kobi]

:deepthoughts: With the Tiger Woods and Sandra Bullock ( who in their right mind would cheat on Sandra Bullock????) issues of late. I am wondering what people think of fidelity in relationships these days. Is it an outdated concept?
How do you think you would react if you found out your partner was cheating?

Personally, I still think monogamy is my relationship mode of choice because I like things simple and predictable. And I suspect if I found out my partner was cheating on me, I would be throwing their belongings out a second story window - its the Italian in me.

[layla]

well ppl are different ... ppl want different things...as long as they are open and honest about it all... there should be no problem... life is strange all sorts of thing happen.... we are not to judge anyone what so ever.... we have the right to be or not be involved with ppl based on their actions and things they do... other then that... free will

I personally might be one of very few who still believe in monogamy....
I still believe in love...and yes am a little selfish and prefer my partner to be a little to a lot selfish too... but yes I do believe in finding the one.... Don't know maybe it's a catholic toxin speaking from my brain lol ...but yes... I do believe in commitment and all....
and it is true I am a very very bad and sinful and naughty catholic but still catholic therefor must blame that for serious monogamy view lol now that sounds just so bad... :giggle:

[bigbutchmistie]

When I partner I give of myself whole heartedly. Heart mind body and soul. I cant even look at someone else without feeling like I am "cheating". Im very old fashioned..

You cant be a partner of mine unless I trust you implicitly. If I found out I was being cheated on its really simple Im done. No taking someone back, working on it. Nothing. Without trust there is nothing.

[Blade]

I was an only child for 8 years so when my sister came along we were to far apart to have the same toys. Besides she didn't like my toys. LOL

So umm I don't share well, actually I don't share at all. If I found out my partner was cheating, I'd have two words for her, THE END. Followed by have a nice life, and remember what goes around comes around.

[bigbutchmistie]

I was an only child for 8 years so when my sister came along we were to far apart to have the same toys. Besides she didn't like my toys. LOL

So umm I don't share well, actually I don't share at all. If I found out my partner was cheating, I'd have two words for her, THE END. Followed by have a nice life, and remember what goes around comes around.

EXACTLY!!!!! I like that what goes around comes around... :)

[miss entycing]

god help ya if I found out- or catch ya... for real. :eyebat:

somebody's ass would be stomped. :4femme:

[MrSunshine]

Cheaters suck! and obviously more than one person. Why bother, grow a set and be honest.

[SuperFemme]

I guess one never really knows what they'll do until they find themselves in an unfortunate and un-negotiated position. :pendulum:

[Andrew, Jr.]

Life changes very drastically at a moments notice. You may be with someone for a day, or 10 years...and boom. It is like a Tyler Perry movie "Why Did I Get Married?" and "Why Did I Get Married Too?". Life is full of chaos. I just roll with the waves.

I was thinking the other day about what has happened to those that I know in real time. This is my list:

*natural disasters
*homeless
*hungry and poor/sick children
*sick (mentally)
*termin. ill
*death
*divorcing
*economy bottomed out
*loss job (full and/or part-time)
*loss of benefits
*loss of car
*addict of some sort

So with this list I have in hand, I think anything can happen anytime to anyone. There are no guarantees in life. Life is hard, unfair, and unjust. It is not our job to judge. We have no idea of what happens behind closed doors. I will let God handle judgement. I am not going to step in His place. Just remember it takes 2 people to tango, not 1. Two people. Unless this is about poly relationships, then I am in the wrong thread.

I am a peacemaker. I try to make people understand each other, to a point of understanding. At my niece's wedding this past weekend, I got my bio-mother to attend. For the last 10 years words were never spoken between my mother and my sister or niece. I am the one who intervened, and got them to talk. Life is too short. We all witnessed it with the loss of our sister JoAnn. Even at the funeral, no words were spoken. Nothing. It was horrible. So, at this happy event, I was not about to let this opportunity go by without at least trying.

[Rook]

I'm under the impression that the underlying message here is that Monogamy is the only way to succeed in trustworthy Love?
There are some who would say otherwise.
Being polyamorous doesn't equate infidelity{if All involved agree with each others limits}, however, in Both there's no guarantees, one is as difficult as the other, if not more in the Trust issue..
If I misunderstood, My apology.
That being said..
Should I catch my companion{s} cheating, or suspect it with valid proof..
I walk..
I don't listen to excuses, lies or wild tales of confusion, if you were capable of going around behind my back, and hiding it, I don't have to hear a peep about just how much you truly care for me, why should I? I won't believe a word anyways, so spare me the drama.

[Soft*Silver]

deep heavy sigh

I have been cheated on. It caused me to lose my family farm. And a 7 year marriage to my butch husband. Gave my 17 year old daughter shingles and almost ruined her college dreams. I had to sell my family heirlooms to her in college. I had to sell all my beautiful horses. Then he called me and said he knows how it felt because she did the same thing to him just a couple months after he left me for her.

I dont know if he wanted pity or to return home. Neither was given.

I almost lost my mind over this. All it would have taken, seriously, was for him to butch up and put on his big boy panties and tell me he wanted to move on. Instead, he told me on a Thursday and was gone with no forwarding address on Saturday. I had a field of horses, a kid graduating and no money in the bank and no hay in the barn. My utilities were on shut off and he hadnt paid our mortage in months...

people turn into totally different people when they cheat.

but then, maybe not. He cheated with the woman before me. She was married and he had a 2 year relationship with her.

So I think, cheaters are cheaters and once done, in any direction, its prone to happen again.

I have had two more people cheat on me since then, but they didnt do as much damage as this one did. This one threw me, and I ended up losing so much that I am still financially recovering from it.

Infidelity isnt, to me, about the fact that my partner is fucking someone else. And thats what it is, because if you are partnered, you are fucking someone else. You can call it making love but trust me, you are fucking them.

Infidelity to me is about the incredible web of lies and deceptions played out on the partner and the assumption that the partner is so stupid that the obvious signs can be denied and therefore, believed. It is such a smack in the face to my intelligence, my sensitivity and respect for me as a woman, let alone as a partner. There is no reason in the world why it is ok for someone who made a committment to someone, to look outside of the relationship for what a partner is suppose to give.

No matter how its justified.

Infidelity strips the clothes off someone, makes them stand nakkid in front of the enture world and humliates them when being stared at as the innocent but stupid victim of the person who everyone knew was cheating but you...

infidelity does indeed harden the nipples, dampens the nether regions, flushes the flesh..but only of the two out of three

the third person gets to howl into the night, cry a river of tears that never seems to end, and blackens their heart so that no one will ever get that level of trust in this lifetime again.

Infidelity is for the weak...they have no backbone to do the right thing. They have no brain to have a conciousness. They have no heart to know the depth to which they are going to seriously injure the person they once promised to love. Infidels are cowards....

in saying all this...it would be a cold day in hell before I would forgive someone who cheated on me, specifically more so if they knew my history of having been victimized by a cheater and his more than opportuned GF.

so no, its not an outdated concept....and no, I would not stay in a relationship with someone who cheated on me....

[bigbutchmistie]

deep heavy sigh

I have been cheated on. It caused me to lose my family farm. And a 7 year marriage to my butch husband. Gave my 17 year old daughter shingles and almost ruined her college dreams. I had to sell my family heirlooms to her in college. I had to sell all my beautiful horses. Then he called me and said he knows how it felt because she did the same thing to him just a couple months after he left me for her.

I dont know if he wanted pity or to return home. Neither was given.

I almost lost my mind over this. All it would have taken, seriously, was for him to butch up and put on his big boy panties and tell me he wanted to move on. Instead, he told me on a Thursday and was gone with no forwarding address on Saturday. I had a field of horses, a kid graduating and no money in the bank and no hay in the barn. My utilities were on shut off and he hadnt paid our mortage in months...

people turn into totally different people when they cheat.

but then, maybe not. He cheated with the woman before me. She was married and he had a 2 year relationship with her.

So I think, cheaters are cheaters and once done, in any direction, its prone to happen again.

I have had two more people cheat on me since then, but they didnt do as much damage as this one did. This one threw me, and I ended up losing so much that I am still financially recovering from it.

Infidelity isnt, to me, about the fact that my partner is fucking someone else. And thats what it is, because if you are partnered, you are fucking someone else. You can call it making love but trust me, you are fucking them.

Infidelity to me is about the incredible web of lies and deceptions played out on the partner and the assumption that the partner is so stupid that the obvious signs can be denied and therefore, believed. It is such a smack in the face to my intelligence, my sensitivity and respect for me as a woman, let alone as a partner. There is no reason in the world why it is ok for someone who made a committment to someone, to look outside of the relationship for what a partner is suppose to give.

No matter how its justified.

Infidelity strips the clothes off someone, makes them stand nakkid in front of the enture world and humliates them when being stared at as the innocent but stupid victim of the person who everyone knew was cheating but you...

infidelity does indeed harden the nipples, dampens the nether regions, flushes the flesh..but only of the two out of three

the third person gets to howl into the night, cry a river of tears that never seems to end, and blackens their heart so that no one will ever get that level of trust in this lifetime again.

Infidelity is for the weak...they have no backbone to do the right thing. They have no brain to have a conciousness. They have no heart to know the depth to which they are going to seriously injure the person they once promised to love. Infidels are cowards....

in saying all this...it would be a cold day in hell before I would forgive someone who cheated on me, specifically more so if they knew my history of having been victimized by a cheater and his more than opportuned GF.

so no, its not an outdated concept....and no, I would not stay in a relationship with someone who cheated on me....

I cant double your thanks so Im a do it here THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU wonderful post my friend...

I am sorry that all of that happened to you

[Rockinonahigh]

One thing I know is that over the years I have lost a lot of trust,expectation,hopes and dreams about ever really trusting anyone because of what I have gone thrue in my relationships both personal and with colse family.I've been to hell and back in my life and it is still takeing me time to realise I now have a real home that unless something really really big happends,will be hear for me to call home and that all the utilities work nd I will be warm when its cold.Many wonder why I dont really take the time to date,have a relationship ect...its just to much to explane to them but they dont need to know anyway.
Yep the liers,cheaters and users of the world can and do take everything out of the ppl they hurt..they dont care they just keep on useing and hurting ppl to get what they want.Folks, u know what? Sooner or later they get it back cause one of these days someone with worse carma than they have will get em good.

[Laidbackgrly]

well ive been cheated on too i do beleive in Karma ive seen it right befor my own eyes:popcorn:

[Soft*Silver]

uhmmm...I dont see karma as a big paddle with holes in it for more effect. Karma is a sacred path that helps people evolve. It raises their consciousness and leads them by the spiritual hand to make ammends, which is so much more than a simple "I am sorry". Real ammends means you have gone thru and done whatever you need to do to make sure it wont happen again. And I think the ammends is also flavored with atonement, where they humbly realize they had faulty thinking and behavior and that upon recognizing it, grow into a larger spiritual being.

I actully am done being mad at him ... I actually understand why he did it. I can even see my part in it. If he needed something more than likely I would try to help him out. But you have to realize it took me years and lots of prayers and burning candles and well, hollering at the moon, to get where I am spiritually with this...

[Random]

For me...

Cheating is my partner developing feelings for someone, acting on those feelings and not telling me about it..

Mic and I define and redefine what we expect from each other, what is cheating, what are hard limits? What is going to cause a crack in our foundation?

If my partner meets someone and there is chemistry or sparks and she acts on that chemistry, spark, attraction.. Then she needs to tell me about it.. Before hand would be nice, but truthfuly, as long as she practice safe sex and has a good time and tells me about it.. It's all good..

That has nothing to do with our relationship.. What she might have with someone else doesn't take anything from our relationship.

Now Lying or Hiding something... well.. that doesn't work.. That would break the rules of our relationship.. That would cause a weak spot in our foundation.. A crack that could be patched, but the scar would always be there.. During a earthquake, it would be a weak spot..

We both have had partners cheat long term on us.. The pain that it caused was quite unnescesary..We both agree.. If it ever came to a place where one of us wanted someone else beyond wanting each other.. Then each other will be the first to know.. not the last... Truth, even when brutally honest, is
the rule...

[Gemme]

The problem with cheating is that the deception and secrecy and lies that come hand in hand with it create a rift. It separates the couple as well as affecting future relationships associated with the person who was cheated on. Not entirely unlike an STD or a virus, it keeps giving itself over and over, with every new partner the cheated on person has a relationship with. It grows and festers and creates a deep-seated distrust of any and all partners, because of the actions of one person. One person's tainted seed ruins all future gardens.

Or maybe it's just me.

[Random]

The problem with cheating is that the deception and secrecy and lies that come hand in hand with it create a rift. It separates the couple as well as affecting future relationships associated with the person who was cheated on. Not entirely unlike an STD or a virus, it keeps giving itself over and over, with every new partner the cheated on person has a relationship with. It grows and festers and creates a deep-seated distrust of any and all partners, because of the actions of one person. One person's tainted seed ruins all future gardens.

Or maybe it's just me.


For me.. you hit it on the nail... It's the dishonesty, the lies.. It effects not only the pair bonding but your trust in yourself... How did I not see that this person was capible of this? How did I not see the signs.. Then there is the ever famous... *I know that xxxx loved me beyond words, I know that is true.. I would have bet my life that they would never lie to me.. Never willingly hurt me... If they could do this to me, being who they are, then how can I trust anyone ever to be honest with me again? How can I belive in a world where the only truth was a lie?*

It shifts your world view and changes who you are...

I know for me... It wasn't all bad.. It made me grow up and see the world as it is.. It made me aware, made me self reliant.. it turned me into someone who is mistress of her own house, her own heart... Lol.. It turned the princess into a Queen...

[Deborah]

DEAL BREAKER for me...no I'm sorry, no lets try again, no no no no....and that is the first thing I tell anyone that I am going into a relationship with. If your attention is drawn away from me to someone else - I say 'if they can get you they can have you' because you aren't the person I want...end of story....next!

[Apocalipstic]

I think if you know you can't stick to one person (and you do know that) decide to be Polyamorous or have an open relationship. :)

Lies and secrets suck!

I don't have the nerves for more than one woman. The very thought gives me a headache!

[Apocalipstic]

Oh......

And,

If someone cheats on their partner with you, what makes you think they won't cheat on you later?

DUH.

[Random]

Oh......

And,

If someone cheats on their partner with you, what makes you think they won't cheat on you later?

DUH.

I don't think this is always the case..

If someone is a serial cheater, then that is one thing... But I think at times, people just don't know how to remove themselves from relationships.. You know the entire.. *I don't want to hurt her* but the silly thing is.. It's going to hurt either way... In my mind.. do it quickly, do it bluntly, do it clean...

[Linus]

I don't think this is always the case..

If someone is a serial cheater, then that is one thing... But I think at times, people just don't know how to remove themselves from relationships.. You know the entire.. *I don't want to hurt her* but the silly thing is.. It's going to hurt either way... In my mind.. do it quickly, do it bluntly, do it clean...

Agreed. I did have a partner who cheated on me and one who was already moving on before we broken up. That said, I believe that they are faithful to the partners they are with now and are happier. I had tried to resolve things with a partner who had cheated on me but I've found once it's done, it's hard to trust again. It is certainly my own issue (I'll admit to lingering trust and abandonment issues) but it's an issue nonetheless.

I find it frustrating in that if the person had spoken to me about whatever had caused them to stray we could have either resolved together to separate amicably or entered into a poly relationship (if all parties were inclined and opened for that).

Today, if it is happens, the existing relationship will be over and I'll be moving on. Given my previous experience and knowing myself I know it'll be better in the long run.

[Apocalipstic]

I don't think this is always the case..

If someone is a serial cheater, then that is one thing... But I think at times, people just don't know how to remove themselves from relationships.. You know the entire.. *I don't want to hurt her* but the silly thing is.. It's going to hurt either way... In my mind.. do it quickly, do it bluntly, do it clean...

In My experience when I have dated someone who cheated to be with Me, eventually they cheated on Me.

I agree, if you are over your relationship, grow a set and break up respectfully.

[Soft*Silver]

I don't think this is always the case..

If someone is a serial cheater, then that is one thing... But I think at times, people just don't know how to remove themselves from relationships.. You know the entire.. *I don't want to hurt her* but the silly thing is.. It's going to hurt either way... In my mind.. do it quickly, do it bluntly, do it clean...

My cheater told me this (see in red). What he REALLY meant, was he didnt want to hurt himself. He didnt want to go thru the parade of emotions that HIS behavior was going to cause me. He knew I would be hurt and did it anyway (cheated) so MY being hurt wasnt the real issue. What was the real issue was he wanted not to feel the consequences of his deliberate, conscious act of infidelity. Again, being unfaithful is an act of a coward.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I guess one never really knows what they'll do until they find themselves in an unfortunate and un-negotiated position. :pendulum:

:deepthoughts: With the Tiger Woods and Sandra Bullock ( who in their right mind would cheat on Sandra Bullock????) issues of late. I am wondering what people think of fidelity in relationships these days. Is it an outdated concept?
How do you think you would react if you found out your partner was cheating?

Personally, I still think monogamy is my relationship mode of choice because I like things simple and predictable. And I suspect if I found out my partner was cheating on me, I would be throwing their belongings out a second story window - its the Italian in me.

Tiger Woods, Jesse James, all celebrities, filled with greed and privilege to top it off they never hear the word..

No...

You want new clothes sure, new car sure, new hot wife sure, hot lil piece to tap on the side sure..

Greed is what drives these people..

Now as for the rest of us who don't have things thrown at us and the cameras in our face.. I think to cheat is pretty sorry.. There is no reason to to cheat.. *MY* opinion is if you are not happy with something that is going on then *talk* it over.. Open your relationship up to polyamory, start doing things apart, talk more, laugh more, etc etc.. Sometimes the person you are with is not going to *FILL* all your needs and wants...

Now if it is over, no feeling left nada, you just wanna punch a baby when you see em?

Why stay? Get out, no reason to cheat once you are feeling that shitty about the person who gave you tons of these :rose: it's time to move on away...

Rook I believe it was mentioned that monogamy lead to successful truthful love? Pish posh.. I have myself seen it lead to the most deceiving, manipulative kinda love

Yucko...

I dunno about monogamy being all simple and predictable, *I* tend to keep my surroundings (if you are liked if not I am like whatever) hoppin a lil....

[Random]

Agreed. I did have a partner who cheated on me and one who was already moving on before we broken up. That said, I believe that they are faithful to the partners they are with now and are happier. I had tried to resolve things with a partner who had cheated on me but I've found once it's done, it's hard to trust again. It is certainly my own issue (I'll admit to lingering trust and abandonment issues) but it's an issue nonetheless.

I find it frustrating in that if the person had spoken to me about whatever had caused them to stray we could have either resolved together to separate amicably or entered into a poly relationship (if all parties were inclined and opened for that).

Today, if it is happens, the existing relationship will be over and I'll be moving on. Given my previous experience and knowing myself I know it'll be better in the long run.

Nods.. I know that to my ex, our relationship had ended and she moved on.. lol.. she just forgot to tell me about it.. She did what was best for her.. Just went about it in a not so great way... As far as I know.. Her and her wife are happy as a lark..

For me... If my partner was having an affair, then the relationship would be ended... Because it would mean she chose to put someone else ahead of our relationship (which I view as a living thing on it's own) It would mean that she threw away all the hard work, tears, freaking eons of talking.. It would mean that her priorities had shifted and someone else was more important than the base *US*...

For me.. Being Poly isn't easy.. It doesn't mean that you just do anything you want and your partner is fine with it... It's a lot of hard work and talking, and talking, and defining, and redefining what your relationship is.. It's also talking about what happens if your partner falls in love with someone that you don't like, don't respect, someone who doesn't want to put the work into being more than a paired couple..

If she fell for someone who didn't want to be part of *US*, Someone that I just couldn't stand..And we had talked about it until we were blue in the face.. and kept seeing that person without me knowing it... ummmm.. ya.. no.. That would be a very bad thing and it would cost her me.. Vis versa...

I won't be lied to on that level.. there is not need.. You have to make hard choices sometimes.. What do you want more?

[Random]

My cheater told me this (see in red). What he REALLY meant, was he didnt want to hurt himself. He didnt want to go thru the parade of emotions that HIS behavior was going to cause me. He knew I would be hurt and did it anyway (cheated) so MY being hurt wasnt the real issue. What was the real issue was he wanted not to feel the consequences of his deliberate, conscious act of infidelity. Again, being unfaithful is an act of a coward.

Exactly.. Did not want the consequence that came from breaking up with someone.. Don't want to face the pain and the hurt that his actions caused..

Which in my mind.. (now that I am grown a bit) is silly.. cause unless you just disapper of the face of the earth.. It's going to happen..

[Random]

In My experience when I have dated someone who cheated to be with Me, eventually they cheated on Me.

I agree, if you are over your relationship, grow a set and break up respectfully.


I see a pattern with the people you were dating..

[Soft*Silver]

Exactly.. Did not want the consequence that came from breaking up with someone.. Don't want to face the pain and the hurt that his actions caused..

Which in my mind.. (now that I am grown a bit) is silly.. cause unless you just disapper of the face of the earth.. It's going to happen..

cheaters work on the principal of denial. They think, in their little heads, that if they cover up their steps no one will find out. They think, if someone finds out, they can talk them into believing some other scenario just because they said it wasnt so. They think that if they can get the other person to doubt their own senses and brain power, that they can get away with it and continue. They think that if they get away with it, they hurt no one and they get to have what they want.

They think wrong. All it does is back it all up until it explodes like cabbage night and exlax.

but then, they think that your explosion is indicative of why it wasnt working so they think that they had every right to cheat. ...

[Random]

cheaters work on the principal of denial. They think, in their little heads, that if they cover up their steps no one will find out. They think, if someone finds out, they can talk them into believing some other scenario just because they said it wasnt so. They think that if they can get the other person to doubt their own senses and brain power, that they can get away with it and continue. They think that if they get away with it, they hurt no one and they get to have what they want.

They think wrong. All it does is back it all up until it explodes like cabbage night and exlax.

but then, they think that your explosion is indicative of why it wasnt working so they think that they had every right to cheat. ...

Not all Ms. Softness.. Not all..

I try really hard never to say.. ALL people who do this are the same..

[Soft*Silver]

Not all Ms. Softness.. Not all..

I try really hard never to say.. ALL people who do this are the same..

nodding...good point. Let us just say I refer to the generic "they think" and that no everyone fits in that category...(thank you)

[Julie]

I have never cheated on a partner, nor have I been cheated on by a partner, at least not that I am aware of. And for me, cheating can mean crossing the lines of intimacy both emotionally and physically.

I also feel the person who crosses lines with another person in a relationship is just as guilty as the person in a relationship who is cheating. What person would ever disrespect the relationship of another? I have been approached by people who are in relationships and if I participated, I would feel equally as wrong.

It comes down to this for me... There is a third person involved and how this could hurt and devastate this third person. I want no part of it on any level.

[SuperFemme]

The male reporter on Showbiz Tonight (CNN) was commenting about the "TWE" (Tiger Woods Effect) happening to Sandra Bullock. Meaning that more women are coming out of the woodwork to say the had couch time with Jesse James. Male Reporter said they all had txt's and email's to prove it.

THEN he said....(wait for it)..."It's a tough time to be a guy"!

Seriously? I think it's a tough time to be a moron, but that is not exclusive to males and puts the cheater in the victim stance rather than the other way around.

Of course, immediately following the segment a Viagra commercial came on.

So to answer the OP: No, I don't think fidelity has gone out of style. The world wouldn't be so hungry for the dirty deets if it had.

Not getting caught may be going out of style due to technology. But let's face it, we all know in our guts when something is off. Denial of that is usually what leads to a person being slapped upside the head with the info.

[I'mOneToo]

I've had lovers who put on a "poly" hat when it was convenient; to me a poly arrangement is negotiated and consensual and discussed before or during the relationship, not just a handy excuse to whip out when you've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar. I've had lovers who cheated and then tried to convince me that what I saw wasn't what I actually saw -- shame on ME for being fooled into believing their lies. I've had lovers who, after breaking up, they ended up with someone else in less than a week and called them their "one and only"; it did little to convince me that it wasn't going on behind my back before the breakup occurred (I only hoped the new "one" hadn't also been fooled, but that wasn't my karma to bear). I've had lovers who cheated in ways large and small but without the actual sexual activity that would typify "true cheating" but they were still forms of infidelity. It's a loss of faith in the heart. It undermines the relationship and kills it slowly instead of by sudden cardiac arrest. Someone already said it -- "What she'll do WITH you, she'll do TO you" and it comes back to bite them eventually, but for my own sake and like Softness, I don't pray for karma. I pray for healing for myself and for them. And like Gemme said, it does real long-term damage to people. And like Apocalipstic said, whether it's the cheater or the one they're cheating with, they're both culpable and both are sewn of the same cloth, IMO. It's just as likely to happen in their brand spankin' new "true love."

What I've found to be sadly true is that when someone lives for the thrill of craving constant attention and adoration, they don't care who they hurt while they chase after that. They have a bottomless pit of need. Their hearts go from 60 to zero in nothing flat, instead of the other way around -- which is the opposite of how true love develops. Deliberateness of ill intent is a love-killer, not the ending of an honest effort where people failed to meet in the middle. We all make mistakes, and things don't always work out. But if someone tries to destroy my life, who can allow that? Me. So I've developed a zero tolerance for staying involved with a cheater, it just doesn't work for me. Might work for others, c'est la vie. I do prefer monogamy because I'm just too old to keep up with poly ;)

I'll take a shot in the dark and say that every one of those cheaters called ME "psycho" after we were done. Why? Because I didn't fall for their bullshit? When I called them on it, they were afraid I might ruin their game somehow. It's not up to me to reduce the victim pool, though. Their best defense was a good offense. But I don't need to behave that way. Though I do have to say, I was uncomfortable sitting around taking it in the shorts non-consensually by people who were supposed to be out of my life, but all I could do was maintain my own composure -- and keep a pair of tight boxers on.

The funny thing is, I have a low ratio of lovers to years on this earth -- haven't I learned anything yet about recognizing a boundariless person? That's my issue today, if I knew how to start a thread it's on my mind. Sorry to be so long-winded, my mind doesn't know how to build sentences any more that aren't at least 40 words apiece.

[SuperFemme]

In some states, you can sue the "other party".

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Business/wife-wins-million-husbands-alleged-mistress/story?id=10177637

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* think it to be cowardly and down right shitty to say they are poly just so they can continue what was started under cloak and dagger.

There are no smoke and mirrors in poly, all parties involved know, no one is being cheated of anything and it's all very transparent. Well at least good, open, communicative poly is.

[I'mOneToo]

hmm has there ever been a case of same-sex decisions that are similar?

In some states, you can sue the "other party".

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Business/wife-wins-million-husbands-alleged-mistress/story?id=10177637

[I'mOneToo]

I agree, it's a lifestyle that requires a lot of negotiation and discussion.

*I* think it to be cowardly and down right shitty to say they are poly just so they can continue what was started under cloak and dagger.

There are no smoke and mirrors in poly, all parties involved know, no one is being cheated of anything and it's all very transparent. Well at least good, open, communicative poly is.

[Apocalipstic]

I have seen people pull out the Poly card...after they cheat too. This needs to be negotiated before the fact or it's plan o'le cheating.


What about people who always line us a new host (OOps, I mean partner) before they break up with their correct partner. Not very honorable or healthy in my book.

If you know you can't just be with one person, that is OK...but don't pretend you can be. Be honorable and honest with your partners. Choose to be Poly. or have an open relationship with a like minded person/s. It's a great thing to know yourself and be honest about who you are. Bravo to people who are brave enough to be ethical in these matters!!!!! I agree with Snow on this. There really is no excuse for cheating.

Also, I have seen where one person wants to be poly, but is too jealous for their partner to be. I call Bullshit on this. Bs bsbsbsbsbsbsbsbsbssbsbsbsbsbsbs

Be honorable. Be ethical. Treat others as you would like your sister or mother to be treated, if you don't care enough about yourself to treat others as you would like to be treated.

[SuperFemme]

I have seen people pull out the Poly card...after they cheat too. This needs to be negotiated before the fact or it's plan o'le cheating.


What about people who always line us a new host (OOps, I mean partner) before they break up with their correct partner. Not very honorable or healthy in my book.

If you know you can't just be with one person, that is OK...but don't pretend you can be. Be honorable and honest with your partners. Choose to be Poly. or have an open relationship with a like minded person/s. It's a great thing to know yourself and be honest about who you are. Bravo to people who are brave enough to be ethical in these matters!!!!! I agree with Snow on this. There really is no excuse for cheating.

Also, I have seen where one person wants to be poly, but is too jealous for their partner to be. I call Bullshit on this. Bs bsbsbsbsbsbsbsbsbssbsbsbsbsbsbs

Be honorable. Be ethical. Treat others as you would like your sister or mother to be treated, if you don't care enough about yourself to treat others as you would like to be treated.

I should have stuck to the only four words that matter to me regarding cheating: I'll cut a bitch. :onebutch:

[I'mOneToo]

yeah I've been hit by that truck too. isn't life grand?


Also, I have seen where one person wants to be poly, but is too jealous for their partner to be. I call Bullshit on this. Bs bsbsbsbsbsbsbsbsbssbsbsbsbsbsbs

[SuperFemme]

hmm has there ever been a case of same-sex decisions that are similar?

Not sure. Too lazy to go do the research to find out if any of the states that still have the law on the books allow same sex marriage. It's not impossible..

[The_Lady_Snow]

I agree, it's a lifestyle that requires a lot of negotiation and discussion.

See and *I* think that any kind of relationship requires alot of negotiation, open communication, transparency and discussions.. I don't see how this only pertains to poly. All of my relationships be they friendships, lovers, friends, fuck buddies, one night stands, etc are going to be clear and open.. This to *me* leads to a happier time and well keeps things from turning into something ugly..

Now, not everyone can do this because for someone unknown reason, lying, playing games and smoke and mirrors sounds better than all the above... Why? I dunno guess we should look deep in the mirror and ask ourselves why...

[I'mOneToo]

Maybe I can rephrase or add to my comment and say, it requires a *specific* type of negotiation and openness. For all involved parties to be agreeable, it's negotiation x (however many) and some say, "the more the merrier" and other say, "sheesh I can't even keep up with one." It goes without saying for me, that without openness and communication, it's gonna fail. But when I fail, it's because I look the other way when I know goddamned well what's going on. That's my biggest failure. It's not consensual, it's not discussed, and it ends up festering. And what's my part in that? It's a weakness because I just let it beat me down until I give up. Instead of it being a love that lifts me up, it's a drain that saps my energy. Then I become less willing to lift the other in love, because I'm feeling cheated. It's a vicious circle.

See and *I* think that any kind of relationship requires alot of negotiation, open communication, transparency and discussions.. I don't see how this only pertains to poly. All of my relationships be they friendships, lovers, friends, fuck buddies, one night stands, etc are going to be clear and open.. This to *me* leads to a happier time and well keeps things from turning into something ugly..

Now, not everyone can do this because for someone unknown reason, lying, playing games and smoke and mirrors sounds better than all the above... Why? I dunno guess we should look deep in the mirror and ask ourselves why...

[Apocalipstic]

See and *I* think that any kind of relationship requires alot of negotiation, open communication, transparency and discussions.. I don't see how this only pertains to poly. All of my relationships be they friendships, lovers, friends, fuck buddies, one night stands, etc are going to be clear and open.. This to *me* leads to a happier time and well keeps things from turning into something ugly..

Now, not everyone can do this because for someone unknown reason, lying, playing games and smoke and mirrors sounds better than all the above... Why? I dunno guess we should look deep in the mirror and ask ourselves why...

I think some people know themselves better than others...and are brave enough to look inside and make decisions that work for them, rather than what they think is expected.

Then there are other people who habitually cheat, hate themselves for it and act really badly and then lie to their partners and try to make them think they are crazy....but somehow to them this is better than just admitting that they should not be monogamous.

It seems so simple, but most people do not see it that way.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Women cheat just like men do. It isn't just one sided, and that is the impression I am getting reading this thread.

Nobody knows what happens in a relationship between a couple. That is between them. Alot of debate can go on about how their passion has fizzled, both are working long hours, one bought a new car while so and so needs one, then the kids, and on and on. All this is - is an educated guess. That is all it is. The truth lies with the couple. Maybe they have decided to part ways. Who's business is it? Not mine. Not yours. That is gossip. And it's wrong imho.

I think of the saying, and forgive me I am not sure of how it actually reads, but it is something along the lines like "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" aka it is payback time. That is not what life is about.

[SuperFemme]

Women cheat just like men do. It isn't just one sided, and that is the impression I am getting reading this thread.

Nobody knows what happens in a relationship between a couple. That is between them. Alot of debate can go on about how their passion has fizzled, both are working long hours, one bought a new car while so and so needs one, then the kids, and on and on. All this is - is an educated guess. That is all it is. The truth lies with the couple. Maybe they have decided to part ways. Who's business is it? Not mine. Not yours. That is gossip. And it's wrong imho.

I think of the saying, and forgive me I am not sure of how it actually reads, but it is something along the lines like "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" aka it is payback time. That is not what life is about.


Ummm. I think you may be reading something I am not? Just a thought.

[Apocalipstic]

Women cheat just like men do. It isn't just one sided, and that is the impression I am getting reading this thread.

Nobody knows what happens in a relationship between a couple. That is between them. Alot of debate can go on about how their passion has fizzled, both are working long hours, one bought a new car while so and so needs one, then the kids, and on and on. All this is - is an educated guess. That is all it is. The truth lies with the couple. Maybe they have decided to part ways. Who's business is it? Not mine. Not yours. That is gossip. And it's wrong imho.

I think of the saying, and forgive me I am not sure of how it actually reads, but it is something along the lines like "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" aka it is payback time. That is not what life is about.


Both sexes cheat. What I am saying is that it is more honorable to break up first...or to just be poly in the first place. :)

I know every single person I mentioned in my posts is a woman. Not one single man.

But we don't have to agree. :)

[SuperFemme]

Both sexes cheat. What I am saying is that it is more honorable to break up first...or to just be poly in the first place. :)

I know every single person I mentioned in my posts is a woman. Not one single man.

But we don't have to agree. :)

Butches cheat, Femmes cheat, in fact the only species that doesn't for sure I think is the goose. Shrug. :flyingpig:

[Andrew, Jr.]

It's funny you ladies both spoke up. From a guys pov, I really thought this was about a guy cheating. I think in society you see more of men cheating than women. And if women stray...it goes un-noticed or isn't focused upon.

[Apocalipstic]

Butches cheat, Femmes cheat, in fact the only species that doesn't for sure I think is the goose. Shrug. :flyingpig:


Good to know. If soemthing ever happens with Cynthia, I will keep transpecies dating in mind. :balloon:

[Gemme]

For me.. you hit it on the nail... It's the dishonesty, the lies.. It effects not only the pair bonding but your trust in yourself... How did I not see that this person was capible of this? How did I not see the signs.. Then there is the ever famous... *I know that xxxx loved me beyond words, I know that is true.. I would have bet my life that they would never lie to me.. Never willingly hurt me... If they could do this to me, being who they are, then how can I trust anyone ever to be honest with me again? How can I belive in a world where the only truth was a lie?*

It shifts your world view and changes who you are...

I know for me... It wasn't all bad.. It made me grow up and see the world as it is.. It made me aware, made me self reliant.. it turned me into someone who is mistress of her own house, her own heart... Lol.. It turned the princess into a Queen...

Exactly. The rose colored glasses come off and, for me, I haven't been the same. I've been made more aware like you, but haven't quite evolved to the point that I don't carry around that suspicion, though it is buried deep. And, it's not necessarily a 'he's going to cheat on me' thing. It's a general distrust of my partners, which of course, is not good in any situation.

I don't think this is always the case..

If someone is a serial cheater, then that is one thing... But I think at times, people just don't know how to remove themselves from relationships.. You know the entire.. *I don't want to hurt her* but the silly thing is.. It's going to hurt either way... In my mind.. do it quickly, do it bluntly, do it clean...

...like a Bandaid.

I do, however, believe once someone has traveled a road once, then that path is much easier to follow in the future. This applies to all aspects of our sordid human nature, not just infidelity.

Agreed. I did have a partner who cheated on me and one who was already moving on before we broken up. That said, I believe that they are faithful to the partners they are with now and are happier. I had tried to resolve things with a partner who had cheated on me but I've found once it's done, it's hard to trust again. It is certainly my own issue (I'll admit to lingering trust and abandonment issues) but it's an issue nonetheless.

I find it frustrating in that if the person had spoken to me about whatever had caused them to stray we could have either resolved together to separate amicably or entered into a poly relationship (if all parties were inclined and opened for that).

Today, if it is happens, the existing relationship will be over and I'll be moving on. Given my previous experience and knowing myself I know it'll be better in the long run.

The cheating partner assumes they know the other so well that they make the decision of how things are going to progress for the couple. Maybe the other partner might have been open to an open relationship, with pro-safe sex parameters I'd hope, or polygamy. I really don't like it when my options or choices are taken away from me before I have been made aware of them.

hmm has there ever been a case of same-sex decisions that are similar?

Highly unlikely, given that we don't have the right to marry or share custody in many states. Interesting thought, though.

I should have stuck to the only four words that matter to me regarding cheating: I'll cut a bitch. :onebutch:

I love you.

[Linus]

Both sexes cheat. What I am saying is that it is more honorable to break up first...or to just be poly in the first place. :)

I know every single person I mentioned in my posts is a woman. Not one single man.

But we don't have to agree. :)


Poly, however, doesn't give one a carte blanche to cheat or be unfaithful. There still is a requirement to communicate and share to a certain degree, depending on how the relationship is set up.

Infidelity is about lying to the partner(s) about one's intention and deliberately not talking to them about issues.

[little man]

Butches cheat, Femmes cheat, in fact the only species that doesn't for sure I think is the goose. Shrug. :flyingpig:

and maybe penguins?

[Apocalipstic]

It's funny you ladies both spoke up. From a guys pov, I really thought this was about a guy cheating. I think in society you see more of men cheating than women. And if women stray...it goes un-noticed or isn't focused upon.


Yes, I agree that is a stereotype of men

But every person I mentioned...women!

People are just people.

[Andrew, Jr.]

It is all about talking or communication. That is key in all relationships. :dance2:

[Apocalipstic]

Poly, however, doesn't give one a carte blanche to cheat or be unfaithful. There still is a requirement to communicate and share to a certain degree, depending on how the relationship is set up.

Infidelity is about lying to the partner(s) about one's intention and deliberately not talking to them about issues.

Very good point, I should have been more clear!

Yes, if you want to love more than one person be Poly, if you want to sleep with whomever, be single!

Better?

[Gemme]

and maybe penguins?

Wolves mate for life. I think dolphins do too.

[Apocalipstic]

Wolves mate for life. I think dolphins do too.

Pondering which is cuter, in case I ever am single again. :unicorn:

[SuperFemme]

It's funny you ladies both spoke up. From a guys pov, I really thought this was about a guy cheating. I think in society you see more of men cheating than women. And if women stray...it goes un-noticed or isn't focused upon.


Monica Lewinsky?
Princess Di? (they certainly focused on her more than Camilla Parker)
Recently Leanne Rhymes....

[Gemme]

Pondering which is cuter, in case I ever am single again. :unicorn:

Pigs and dolphins have sex for pleasure. Wolves do it like they do on the Discovery Channel.

*grin*

[SuperFemme]

and maybe penguins?

Penguins are monogamous for only one mating season.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Tonya,

You are so right! I forgot about those gals. :ballerina: :farmer:

[little man]

Penguins are monogamous for only one mating season.

obviously, i do not watch enough animal planet. although, i have to wonder if they're not onto something there. that would certainly broaden the gene pool, wouldn't it? (which has nothing to do with the topic at hand...sorry for the diversion)

[The_Lady_Snow]

Maybe I can rephrase or add to my comment and say, it requires a *specific* type of negotiation and openness. For all involved parties to be agreeable, it's negotiation x (however many) and some say, "the more the merrier" and other say, "sheesh I can't even keep up with one." It goes without saying for me, that without openness and communication, it's gonna fail. But when I fail, it's because I look the other way when I know goddamned well what's going on. That's my biggest failure. It's not consensual, it's not discussed, and it ends up festering. And what's my part in that? It's a weakness because I just let it beat me down until I give up. Instead of it being a love that lifts me up, it's a drain that saps my energy. Then I become less willing to lift the other in love, because I'm feeling cheated. It's a vicious circle.

*I* still do not feel like poly has or is a *specific* way of living, it's not like they have different rules, or guidelines.. What happens with good poly is what should happen in ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL relationship spectrums...


HONESTY


I mean really should we not be expecting that each time we start any relationship regardless of what it is??

I do....

[SuperFemme]

obviously, i do not watch enough animal planet. although, i have to wonder if they're not onto something there. that would certainly broaden the gene pool, wouldn't it? (which has nothing to do with the topic at hand...sorry for the diversion)

How hard is it to me monogamous when all your potential mates look EXACTLY THE SAME.

http://uashome.alaska.edu/%7Edfgriffin/website/penguins.gif

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's funny you ladies both spoke up. From a guys pov, I really thought this was about a guy cheating. I think in society you see more of men cheating than women. And if women stray...it goes un-noticed or isn't focused upon.



I call bullshit Andrew..

If a woman cheats, she is cast as

WHORE

HOME WRECKER

SLUT

LILITH



It is all about talking or communication. That is key in all relationships. :dance2:


I agree with this 1005

Monica Lewinsky?

Right? Naughty bad Monica who led poor poor Clinton, mind you no one made him get his dick sucked, no one made him fuck her with a cigar, and no one forced him to cheat on his wife..
Princess Di? (they certainly focused on her more than Camilla Parker)

Di, well Charles was sticking his dick in Camilla, she was supposed to sit back and watch like a good little girl right? Cause that is what good Queens do, sit back and watch the guy do whatever..
Now she decides fuck it and gets her nookie wet, all hell breaks out, her crown taken, and I still say killed...

Recently Leanne Rhymes....

Here we go again, the bad bad vixen strayed the poor guy who is married with kids, she turned into a serpent struck him with her venomous ways and he had no choice...

Poor victim cheaters...

Makes me wanna vomit a bit...


Fuck this excuse for cheating, this whole new I am addicted to sex, it's just an excuse for a new reality show with Dr Drew..

[I'mOneToo]

I'm not disagreeing with you, maybe I'm not communicating it well. Because for me openness and communication are equivalent to honesty. What I tried to say is that in a poly situation, it is multiplied. that is the specificity (sp?) that I am referring to. Some people struggle with the keeping up with life, keeping up with people, just keeping up in general... not saying that a relationship should be allowed some slack, like "oh this is just my relationship, i can coast here". if you coast, that is when it slips away from you... ALL relationships can. sorry i'm not doing very well. when i write a post like the first one i did in here, it took an hour because i have to re-read the shit out of it so if it makes sense... writing this way without editing, it's like extemporaneous speaking for some. i will be smarter if i quit while i'm ahead!

*I* still do not feel like poly has or is a *specific* way of living, it's not like they have different rules, or guidelines.. What happens with good poly is what should happen in ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL relationship spectrums...


HONESTY


I mean really should we not be expecting that each time we start any relationship regardless of what it is??

I do....

[SuperFemme]

The male reporter on Showbiz Tonight (CNN) was commenting about the "TWE" (Tiger Woods Effect) happening to Sandra Bullock. Meaning that more women are coming out of the woodwork to say the had couch time with Jesse James. Male Reporter said they all had txt's and email's to prove it.

THEN he said....(wait for it)..."It's a tough time to be a guy"!

Seriously? I think it's a tough time to be a moron, but that is not exclusive to males and puts the cheater in the victim stance rather than the other way around.

Of course, immediately following the segment a Viagra commercial came on.

So to answer the OP: No, I don't think fidelity has gone out of style. The world wouldn't be so hungry for the dirty deets if it had.

Not getting caught may be going out of style due to technology. But let's face it, we all know in our guts when something is off. Denial of that is usually what leads to a person being slapped upside the head with the info.

I quote myself to show, once again how men are portrayed when they cheat. "It's a tough time to be a guy". Puh-lease.

[Gemme]

How hard is it to me monogamous when all your potential mates look EXACTLY THE SAME.

http://uashome.alaska.edu/%7Edfgriffin/website/penguins.gif

.............

YouTube- Happy Feet Gloria (long)

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm not disagreeing with you, maybe I'm not communicating it well. Because for me openness and communication are equivalent to honesty. What I tried to say is that in a poly situation, it is multiplied. that is the specificity (sp?) that I am referring to. Some people struggle with the keeping up with life, keeping up with people, just keeping up in general... not saying that a relationship should be allowed some slack, like "oh this is just my relationship, i can coast here". if you coast, that is when it slips away from you... ALL relationships can. sorry i'm not doing very well. when i write a post like the first one i did in here, it took an hour because i have to re-read the shit out of it so if it makes sense... writing this way without editing, it's like extemporaneous speaking for some. i will be smarter if i quit while i'm ahead!


How is it mulitplied??

I mean yes there are more than one person, but the same rules apply...
I am still not understanding how poly is different than any other, what I see here is for *you* poly has to much to keep up with, what I experience is no different you are open, honest, you communicate etc just like I do with say..

Superfemme my expectations with her or say Day are no different, I expect and have been clear about how it's gonna roll, and that is the same way as I described above..

So if we can handle all kinds of relationships with these kinds of expectations, why not the same with monogamy? or poly amory?

See what I am sayin?

[SuperFemme]

How is it mulitplied??

I mean yes there are more than one person, but the same rules apply...
I am still not understanding how poly is different than any other, what I see here is for *you* poly has to much to keep up with, what I experience is no different you are open, honest, you communicate etc just like I do with say..

Superfemme my expectations with her or say Day are no different, I expect and have been clear about how it's gonna roll, and that is the same way as I described above..

So if we can handle all kinds of relationships with these kinds of expectations, why not the same with monogamy? or poly amory?

See what I am sayin?

Amen Ms. :drool:

[I'mOneToo]

yes the same rules apply. but if a casual acquaintance of mine or even a close friend isn't truthful with me, the impact isn't as high as if it was someone who is in a sexual relationship with me. if a person i'm having a sexual relationship isn't honest with me (or all of us, if there's a poly situation) it impacts everyone and can have negative consequences that would not apply if it was someone i wasn't fucking. so it's not that the expectation of honesty is higher, but the consequences can be greater when honesty doesn't exist.

How is it mulitplied??

I mean yes there are more than one person, but the same rules apply...
I am still not understanding how poly is different than any other, what I see here is for *you* poly has to much to keep up with, what I experience is no different you are open, honest, you communicate etc just like I do with say..

Superfemme my expectations with her or say Day are no different, I expect and have been clear about how it's gonna roll, and that is the same way as I described above..

So if we can handle all kinds of relationships with these kinds of expectations, why not the same with monogamy? or poly amory?

See what I am sayin?

[Soft*Silver]

whether it is monogomy, poly, vanilla or leather, they all fall under the umbrella of relationships and all relationships need huge amounts of communication for them to properly work and not become dysfunctional.

When i am in gear to consider a relationship with someone, I teasingly bring up and joke about my "contract"...as we talk, if something pops up in our conversation that is distinct enough for me to know it matters and will matter even more if we keep going, I lay claim to putting it in the "contract".Now, there has not been an actual drafted contract, but you can ask anyone i have dated if I didnt do this. It gives them at least a visual that we arent sliding on past some important things.

communication...I agree with Lady Snow...is important in any kind of relationship....they are all as simple and as complex as you need make them..

[Soft*Silver]

the same? Didnt you notice his flipper was wider than the other guy's?


How hard is it to me monogamous when all your potential mates look EXACTLY THE SAME.

http://uashome.alaska.edu/%7Edfgriffin/website/penguins.gif

[Apocalipstic]

yes the same rules apply. but if a casual acquaintance of mine or even a close friend isn't truthful with me, the impact isn't as high as if it was someone who is in a sexual relationship with me. if a person i'm having a sexual relationship isn't honest with me (or all of us, if there's a poly situation) it impacts everyone and can have negative consequences that would not apply if it was someone i wasn't fucking. so it's not that the expectation of honesty is higher, but the consequences can be greater when honesty doesn't exist.


For me it is worse to be betrayed and lied to by a very close friend.

[SuperFemme]

For me it is worse to be betrayed and lied to by a very close friend.

Me too. Love is love is love. Sex is fucking.

[I'mOneToo]

there's no kind of betrayal that ever seems acceptable. and consequences vary so greatly that i'm just going to leave this topic alone myself, because i don't function well in piecemeal discussions. this is a whole smorgasbord of stuff in what started as one little topic, now it's a debate about polyamory and that's a great biggo meal by itself. i had some thoughts about the original topic, though it may be unworthy of discussion now, lol. nah, i'll just stuff that cuz i need a nap.

For me it is worse to be betrayed and lied to by a very close friend.

[Apocalipstic]

I think it all boils down to be honest and respectful in all our dealings!

Honest and Respect

Simple!

Have a great nap! :)

[Andrew, Jr.]

Let me ask this question because I am confused. What business is it of mine if someone is cheating?

[SuperFemme]

Let me ask this question because I am confused. What business is it of mine if someone is cheating?


None. At all. Unless they are cheating on you.

I think most in this thread are coming from that place...

[WickedFemme]

:deepthoughts: With the Tiger Woods and Sandra Bullock ( who in their right mind would cheat on Sandra Bullock????) issues of late. I am wondering what people think of fidelity in relationships these days. Is it an outdated concept?
How do you think you would react if you found out your partner was cheating?

Personally, I still think monogamy is my relationship mode of choice because I like things simple and predictable. And I suspect if I found out my partner was cheating on me, I would be throwing their belongings out a second story window - its the Italian in me.

Who would cheat on Sandra Bullock? lol... all we know is what's on the outside and what the media tells us, which is usually way far from the truth and for which the purpose is to 'sell'.

Honesty is important to me regardless of the topic of conversation or the situation. People are dishonest for a variety of reasons about a variety of things depending on their own unique situations and/or issues.

[Rook]

a } Swans also mate for Life [and if I "read" the narrative correctly, Swans will try to kill themself if their mate dies]

b } You can be the sexiest vision ever to walk on 2 legs, that doesn't mean your "better half" won't go ga-ga over some piñata reject for some X or Y reason.

c } depending on the penguin species, the female can have more than 2 mates in 1 season, the male is stuck to 1..or 2..also, if the male is late in meeting the same female as last time, he's shit out of luck, a quicker male got her.Females are the ones who fight over the male.And last but not least, if I got my info. correct, like Most birds, the male lacks a specific weenie..it's hit or miss.[don't ask how I know this]
:popcorn:

[Kobi]

* looks up at Rook.....seriously dude, you need to get out more.....LOL.*

Seems we mostly agree on honesty and respect as being hallmarks of our relationships, And that trust is hard to reestablish when deceit is thrown in the mix.

Thank you all for your thoughts and sharing of experiences!

[IrishGrrl]

The whole cheating thing. Wow. Well, I'm going to say that I strongly disagree with the whole "once a cheater always a cheater" thing. Once upon a time I was a cheater. Not in just one relationship either. Several. I"m not going to list my reasons for cheating..the point is mute. What is important is that I always had a "good reason" for it. (In my head) Usually it was something like, lack of sex in the relationship,or lack of attention from my partner. I recognize now that I was not at a point in my development to speak my mind, and fix it or leave. I wasnt strong enough..I wanted love to be a magical fix. Took me a long time to wake up from the bullshit we are taught as children about the whole fairytale. Now, I wouldnt cheat..not ever. If I"m in a position where I feel neglected to a point of no return, lack of sex..then I will end it. I'm aware of what I need, and what it takes. Even if it means letting the love of my life go..even if it kills me.

Irish

[SuperFemme]

wait.
i'm cute AND a pinata reject.

[Jet]

:deepthoughts: With the Tiger Woods and Sandra Bullock ( who in their right mind would cheat on Sandra Bullock????) issues of late. I am wondering what people think of fidelity in relationships these days. Is it an outdated concept?
How do you think you would react if you found out your partner was cheating?

Personally, I still think monogamy is my relationship mode of choice because I like things simple and predictable. And I suspect if I found out my partner was cheating on me, I would be throwing their belongings out a second story window - its the Italian in me.

I have cheated and i have been cheated on, so I don't do relationships anymore. The thing about that scum ass Jesse James is that he was never man enough to handle her success. He's weak enough to act out being shown up by her limelight and tremendous success. She's gorgeous; brilliant, level and has million things going for her....any man who's a real man would die for that and he's nothing but a sleaze ass fuckin' baby who was nothing without her. Prick. My .02

[apretty]

also, i think you have to be what is known as a 'sack of shit' to cheat, but i agree with the above description as well: "It has to do with being a person with values, morals and personal integrity." well said, Jacks.

i almost cheated once and i got paid-back big time by then dating a worthless piece of no-job having, lying, broke ass, mean, woman-hitting, neanderthal sack of shit. thankfully he cheated cuz then i got to DUMP him and his few tired belongings back where i found him.

:bouquet:

so i don't know if cheaters always cheat, i guess i believe that people are capable of change if they've had a life-changing event and did the work (professional, intensive therapy) and committed to change and staying changed. but that takes work and time, though it's not impossible.

[SuperFemme]

I don't think it has much to do with being a "Real Man". (What is a Real Man anyway??????)

It has to do with being a person with values, morals and personal integrity.
Those standards to me are Gender neutral.

It also requires a level of emotional maturity that he apparently lacks.

Right.

Well said and THANKS for bringing up that pesky "real man" thingy.

He trolls for tattooed babes to visit his couch on MYSPACE for god's sake. I mean. Come on.

[apretty]

Right.

Well said and THANKS for bringing up that pesky "real man" thingy.

He trolls for tattooed babes to visit his couch on MYSPACE for god's sake. I mean. Come on.

plus! what's worse--i heard the girlfriends interviewed and he *doesn't tip* servers. that's just BEYOND low. i think i'm more offended by the no-tipping than any of the other.


totally talking about tiger woods, here--wrong cheater! please disregard!

[Jet]

I believe in a real man thing because its how I was raised. I don;t see it as gender neutral...for reasons and traditions....i think what he did is bad...just my .02
to each his own i guess.

[apretty]

I believe in a real man thing because its how I was raised. I don;t see it as gender neutral...for reasons and traditions....i think what he did is bad...just my .02
to each his own i guess.

i think people are objecting to defining 'manhood' by something many good, honest, upstanding female BUTCHES do on a daily bases--treat their ladies right? ya know?

i know it's 'slang' to say 'man up' and mean 'good character' but words are powerful... they define us whether we realize it or not.

[SuperFemme]

plus! what's worse--i heard the girlfriends interviewed and he *doesn't tip* servers. that's just BEYOND low. i think i'm more offended by the no-tipping than any of the other.


totally talking about tiger woods, here--wrong cheater! please disregard!

i get confused. bad tipper and the *vanilla gorilla* are both just lame IMO. who wants to bet on how many times NO condoms were used?

Ick. Ick. Ick.

[Soon]

i get confused. bad tipper and the *vanilla gorilla* are both just lame IMO. who wants to bet on how many times NO condoms were used?

Ick. Ick. Ick.

it seems that he wasn't fond of using the condoms...and THAT is what makes me really sick and mad. That is messed up--beyond.

[SuperFemme]

it seems that he wasn't fond of using the condoms...and THAT is what makes me really sick and mad. That is messed up--beyond.

Yeah. Sick and mad don't even cover it. :batman:

[apretty]

i get confused. bad tipper and the *vanilla gorilla* are both just lame IMO. who wants to bet on how many times NO condoms were used?

Ick. Ick. Ick.

seriously, i would bet no condoms were used, ever.

...i would have used that golf club to beat down the door of a free clinic.

[SuperFemme]

seriously, i would bet no condoms were used, ever.

...i would have used that golf club to beat down the door of a free clinic.

Sandra Bullocks advice to Elin Woods: "If I were Elin, man, I would have hit a lot more than she did. I would have kept hitting! She stopped. She was respectable. I'd get the baseball bat. I'd get everything out."

[apretty]

Sandra Bullocks advice to Elin Woods: "If I were Elin, man, I would have hit a lot more than she did. I would have kept hitting! She stopped. She was respectable. I'd get the baseball bat. I'd get everything out."

glass houses.

[BullDog]

To me infidelity is about dishonesty and lies, not about sex. In my book if you lie then that's infidelity- either in a relationship or potential relationship. Lies and omissions are incredibly hurtful and it shows a very poor character.

Being a faithful and honest person applies to all genders. It has nothing to do with being man enough, woman enough, or any other gender enough.

[Soft*Silver]

She's gorgeous; brilliant, level and has million things going for her....any man who's a real man would die for that and he's nothing but a sleaze ass fuckin' baby who was nothing without her. Prick. My .02

I am so appalled by the ideology that comes with the attitude that a man has to be out of his mind to cheat on a pretty woman. A REAL man knows when he has gravy on his taters. A REAL man knows when he cant do better.
A REAL man gets his "dues" regarding women..he gets the cream of the crop and so he would be a mad hatter if he cheated on his "prize" or "trophy wife"...

well, for all us plain girls, us Susan Boyles and Kathy Bates kind of girls, we might not be the Sandra Bullocks of the world but we sure do deserve respect and honesty, fidelity and love in our relationships TOO. And any man who would cheat on us, us salt of the earth kind of gals, then they arent anymore of a REAL man than Jesse is. In fact, REAL isnt the term at all. INGRATE would be more like it. Cuz it doesnt matter if the woman he is with is a beauty queen or a plain gal..what matters is HIS character, not her looks...

(damn..this set me off...and I know Jet doesnt deserve me flooding all over his statement. Sometimes we posters pick our words without knowing people can hear so much more than whats intended by them...)

[apretty]

Kathy Bates kind of girls,

i think kathy bates is beautiful--frequently she's un-prettified to portray a strong character but i wouldn't describe her as plain. she definitely has an 'it factor' that radiates and resonates with her fans.

http://www.kathybates.org/images/Kathy-Bates-Picture.jpg

http://johnmoorefamily.org/img_photos/kathy_bates.jpg


...but she's frequently remembered as her 'misery' character which i think speaks to her broad range (and compelling performance) as an actress, not that she's "plain".

[Soft*Silver]

plain, as in not made up, as in simple expression of features and not over glammed. I think she is beautiful, myself. Her beauty is honest. Its why I chose her to play me in a movie, in another thread.

[adorable]

I have been cheated on several times. It has never seemed to matter if I was skinny or fat. Rich or poor. If my hair was perfect or if I never complained. It didn't seem to matter how often we had sex or how well I cooked dinner either. It did seem to be a character flaw in each one of them. That flaw that allows you to lie to the person who you claim to love more then any other. IF you are willing to sneak around, lie, lie more to cover up those lies, hide your phone, cover up credit card charges ~ go through all of that trouble to fuck around with someone who you, generally are quick to say doesn't matter ON someone you supposedly love ~ what on earth does that say about your character? Instead of putting all of that effort into fixing whatever is wrong with your relationship - cheating is what? easier? It's easier than just leaving the relationship? Easier for who? It solves what? I don't get it. Really.

I did blame myself. Sometimes it's hard not to. But the truth is that people will do what they're going to do. All anyone has is their word. Having been cheated on so many times still effects me. That fear that you have no control over another person who may not have control over themselves - it causes tapes to play in my head. I hate that. You are forced to trust people, even if you say you "don't trust anyone." When they say they are going to work - you still assume they are actually going to work. Who would lie about that? Well, I've met those fuckers. I know what people are capable of - and that pain isn't anything that I am in any hurry to experience again.

But what can you do? Nothing. No matter how perfect you are. No matter how successful you are. No matter how nice you are. It has nothing to do with YOU. It has everything to do with THEM. People either have character, integrity and respect (for themselves, you and your relationship) or they don't. All you can do is have faith. There are times in my life right now where I start getting consumed with fear. I just stop and try my best to give it to God. That might sound hokey, but I don't know what else to do with it. lol. If there is an alternative, I'd love to know what it is....

[Kobi]

adorable,

I hear your pain. I dont know if there is a viable alternative that works for everyone. I know what sometimes works for me and maybe there is something in there that may be of use to you. For me, I try and deal with people and relationships in the following ways:

1. Remember that people come and go in our lives for reasons that are rarely apparent at the time.

2. People being people make all kinds of mistakes and errors in judgement for many reasons. Some of these can be very harmful, some merely an annoyance. It doesnt make them bad people but it does make me think about where, if anywhere, they belong in my life.

3. Trust is something to be earned, not given freely.

4. Actions speak louder than words and the truth lays somewhere in between.

5. Women tend to hold on to relationships long after the positives outweigh the negatives. Letting go is difficult but necessary to growth.

6. If it feels like work, there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

7. Always pay attention to your gut and the red flags it sees. We have senses and intuition for a reason.

8. Don't enter into commitments easily. It is easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment or the joy of something new. Take a step back and evaluate more carefully.

9. Choose wisely. Who we are attracted to and who fits in our lives are not necessarily the same person. Reminds me of that Amy Irving movie where she is attracted to the artist but a better fit with the pickle guy. The artist is wild, exciting, unpredictable. The pickle guy is normal, stable, and boring.

10. Always take responsibility. There are no guarantees, no certainties in life. We have control over us and the decisions we make. We shape our lives and the experiences we have. Its a life long growth experience. There will be ups and downs, good times and sucky times, but in the end, what matters is living as the person we want to be. All the experiences we have are merely stepping stones to our developing that person.

11. If 1-10 dont work.....call Uncle Guido....he has a more rudementary sense of justice. :)

[Apocalipstic]

Honesty and RESPECT.

[Sachita]

I agree with some here... its not about sex but deception. I can handle just about anything that comes at me. I can even shift my sails and reach great compromise with people but the moment I am deceived I walk away.

In relationships people expect too much from each other or they enter into a relationship 1/2 way never really investing fully. It's all or nothing and no doubt someone will fall short or someone will step away to fulfill a need. Right or wrong its a personal agenda and rarely has anything to do with the one getting hurt.

This is why relationships are hard for me. I'm good, fair, compromising, etc until someone crowds me or tries to forced my nature. Then I shut down.

I think Tiger is emotionally and spiritually immature. It has nothing to do with his wife or sexual addiction. The most pleasure he's ever had, or learned to have is to seek, hunt, conquer, - he just hasn't learn to be a man yet.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am a little perturbed by the plain girls thing... Really? I feel I am plain and know I am the gravy on the taters as you so put it...

We can plainly see these famous women who are being cheated on are what one could label above average in looks..

In reality these dudes have no moral character, no matter how pretty they were it did not keep their dick in their pants and somewhere between the first stroke and 3rd grunt the morals, well those went flying out the window...

Real man my ass, these guys were just looking for another place to bust a nut

[UofMfan]

I am a little perturbed by the plain girls thing... Really? I feel I am plain and know I am the gravy on the taters as you so put it...

...Real man my ass, these guys were just looking for another place to bust a nut

I totally agree.

And excuse me, Kathy Bates plain?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I totally agree.

And excuse me, Kathy Bates plain?



Right???:spider:

[SuperFemme]

plain. real man. real woman. cheaters. sex addicts.

i'm moving to canada. nobody cheats there because they all have medical coverage.

[UofMfan]

plain. real man. real woman. cheaters. sex addicts.

i'm moving to canada. nobody cheats there because they all have medical coverage.

Too funny!

[Apocalipstic]

plain. real man. real woman. cheaters. sex addicts.

i'm moving to canada. nobody cheats there because they all have medical coverage.


I have to admit that the "sex addict" thing makes me laugh.

[WILDCAT]

:nothingtoadd:


YouTube- Culture Club live Do you really want to hurt me



*Oh... I don't feel Tiger's personal life or "affairs" is any of my business. I wish healing for that family though, however it turns out. And the same for Sandra and all wounded people who have been hurt this way. Very painful, betrayal is...

Wildcat

[Sachita]

I'm loving Lady Snow's comment about gravy on taters! great!

I'm easy to a point. If you want someone else then have at it but leave me be.

[Martina]

It's funny you ladies both spoke up. From a guys pov, I really thought this was about a guy cheating. I think in society you see more of men cheating than women. And if women stray...it goes un-noticed or isn't focused upon.


You're kidding, right? Let's have a seance and discuss this with all the women killed by their boyfriends or husbands who found out they were cheating or who thought they were.

[sweetcali]

plain??????????????? ~~~~~ splain lucy

real man???????? ~~~~~ splain lucy


This seriously befuddles me.

sweetcali

[Martina]

It's funny you ladies both spoke up. From a guys pov, I really thought this was about a guy cheating. I think in society you see more of men cheating than women. And if women stray...it goes un-noticed or isn't focused upon.


i am still fuming about this. i mean, do we share the same planet? i don't get it. How many women are killed a YEAR, i wonder, based on accusations of infidelity? i still can't get over it, that i even saw this on this site. It's damaging to ME to hear things like this expressed, things that i thought most people knew better than to say.

[Dylan]

I have cheated and i have been cheated on, so I don't do relationships anymore. The thing about that scum ass Jesse James is that he was never man enough to handle her success. He's weak enough to act out being shown up by her limelight and tremendous success. She's gorgeous; brilliant, level and has million things going for her....any man who's a real man would die for that and he's nothing but a sleaze ass fuckin' baby who was nothing without her. Prick. My .02

Here's my thing about outsiders pontificating on celebrity relationships

Do you know these people personally? Or are you basing all of your 'knowledge' on what you see in the media?

Who's to say she's not a raging maniac bitch? Who's to say she's not controlling, manipulative evil heinous?

This is something that just always bugs the crap outta me. It started with that whole Hugh Jackman incident (is that the one who hired the hooker a few years back?)

Just because a woman is deemed attractive and successful and "America's Sweetheart" (this year) doesn't mean she's All That.

I mean, I'm not condoning cheating, but for realz, this Poor Sandy crap is just over the top.

And The Poor HughJackman'sWife (whatever the hell her name is) crap was over the top too.

"Oh, my god, how could anyone cheat on Sandy"...well, maybe she's evil. We don't know, we don't have to live with her. We get to see her *acting* face whenever she's filmed or shown walking down the street, or drinking a cup of coffee. She makes her money off of presenting a Fabu Demeanor. For that kind of money, I'd smile at people too. But behind closed doors, we don't know what goes on.

How do you know she's brilliant? Seriously? How do you know she's got a million things going for her? How do you know she's not heinous to live with?

What? Cuz they dress her up all pretty and shit, and make her sparkly?

Does that mean un-gorgeous women *deserve* to get cheated on? I just don't get it.


And On Top Of That...Who The Hell Cares If Jesse Fucked Every Woman In The Country? Who Cares Who Tiger Fucks? WHY Is This Even News?,
Dylan...seriously hates the "How Could Anyone Cheat On Someone I Don't Know" crap

[SuperFemme]

I can't believe you just compared the Wolverine with Hugh Grant. :furious:j

Hugh Grant: http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u15/Hugh_Grant_Devine_Brown.jpg

Hugh Jackman: http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/2008/06/08-15/hugh_jackman-wolverine.jpg

[Dylan]

I can't believe you just compared the Wolverine with Hugh Grant. :furious:

Eh, Hugh Grant, Hugh Jackman...same person...equally unmemorable

They're all the same and no one will remember either one of them 50 years from now...unless one of the goes crazy like Howard Hughes

I just don't care about celebrity bullshit, and I don't understand why this country cares more about gossip than actual news


Oh Wait, I'll Now Try To Fit In..."Gasp, Poor Sandy...I Just Wanna Send Her A Hug In A Basket",
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for adding the pictures tho...that really helps. I DID like the Wolverine movie. Can't name anything else he's been in tho. And I can't name one movie Hugh Grant was in.

[SuperFemme]

Deliver it in person, she has a house in your hood. :fastdraq:

[Dylan]

Oh trust me...we know. I think it's a rule in Austin that you have to know every celebrity who owns property here.

And she's now part owner of a downtown, yuppie bakery too <eyeroll>

Just to tarnish her "America's Sweetheart" reputation for a minute, she also refused to sign autographs for disadvantaged kids one day while downtown at the courthouse


That Doesn't Sound Very Sweet,
Dylan

P.S. Sometimes, I wanna just push Lance Armstrong off his bike

[julieisafemme]

Celebrity opinions about politics, who they have sex with and whether or not they have an addiction of any kind is not my business nor is it interesting.

Politician opinions about politics, who they have sex with and whether or not they have an addiction of any kind is my business and I care about that a lot. There was a discussion on FB about do gay celebrities owe it to the community to come out? I don't think they do unless they want to. Politicians do have a responsibility to be out. If they are lying they should be outed.




Eh, Hugh Grant, Hugh Jackman...same person...equally unmemorable

They're all the same and no one will remember either one of them 50 years from now...unless one of the goes crazy like Howard Hughes

I just don't care about celebrity bullshit, and I don't understand why this country cares more about gossip than actual news


Oh Wait, I'll Now Try To Fit In..."Gasp, Poor Sandy...I Just Wanna Send Her A Hug In A Basket",
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for adding the pictures tho...that really helps. I DID like the Wolverine movie. Can't name anything else he's been in tho. And I can't name one movie Hugh Grant was in.

[BullDog]

I'm too lazy to go find the Tiger Woods thread again, but I certainly got a good chuckle over Tiger's announcement that he will be rejoining the PGA tour to play in the Masters. I should have set my egg timer on that one. That is what his public apology was about, lol.

Whether Sandra Bullock is nice or not nice, what does that have to do with whether or not she deserves to be cheated on or whether anyone should feel badly for her? What does it matter if someone is considered good looking or "plain?" No one deserves to be cheated on.

[AtLast]

My feelings boil down to this....

If you represent that you are monogamous and enter into a marriage (or relationship) as such..... don't cheat!

If you cannot be monogamous, don't make these kinds of promises. Be honest and seek relationsips with people that align with your belief structures.

And I don't have a problem with poly relationships if this is what is agreed upon. I don't date poly individuals because it just doesn't fit for me, personally. However, it does for other people.

[SuperFemme]

http://img.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jesse1__oPt.jpg

Jesse James IS a big old douche though. Can't argue that.

[The_Lady_Snow]

My feelings boil down to this....

If you represent that you are monogamous and enter into a marriage (or relationship) as such..... don't cheat!

If you cannot be monogamous, don't make these kinds of promises. Be honest and seek relationsips with people that align with your belief structures.

And I don't have a problem with poly relationships if this is what is agreed upon. I don't date poly individuals because it just doesn't fit for me, personally. However, it does for other people.

See here is the thing...

One can be in a monogamous relationship and things may change, illness or something that may cause one person to not fulfill the other.. I would think that if mah boo came to me said..

"sugar, our sex is just not cutting it for me, and well I was thinking we could open up our relationship to poly........" If I was not able to fulfill my cuddly bear I would want them to be happy yes? No sense in cheating, sometimes monogamy can't be fulfilled, *I* don't think monogamy is structured, for if it was.....

We would not have this thread....

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://img.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jesse1__oPt.jpg

Jesse James IS a big old douche though. Can't argue that.

See

The boy told me he was a douche bag.....

What a dick.......

[SuperFemme]

See here is the thing...

One can be in a monogamous relationship and things may change, illness or something that may cause one person to not fulfill the other.. I would think that if mah boo came to me said..

"sugar, our sex is just not cutting it for me, and well I was thinking we could open up our relationship to poly........" If I was not able to fulfill my cuddly bear I would want them to be happy yes? No sense in cheating, sometimes monogamy can't be fulfilled, *I* don't think monogamy is structured, for if it was.....

We would not have this thread....

Snow said *cuddly bear*. :superfunny:

[AtLast]

See here is the thing...

One can be in a monogamous relationship and things may change, illness or something that may cause one person to not fulfill the other.. I would think that if mah boo came to me said..

"sugar, our sex is just not cutting it for me, and well I was thinking we could open up our relationship to poly........" If I was not able to fulfill my cuddly bear I would want them to be happy yes? No sense in cheating, sometimes monogamy can't be fulfilled, *I* don't think monogamy is structured, for if it was.....

We would not have this thread....

Yup, this can happen..... and if a partner wants to open it up, OK. Have to say, this wouldn't be true for me. Its about mutual agreement and I wouldn't agree to this. We would be working on our sexual relationship and go into counseling to do this.

The other thing that I need to say is that there are many ways to deal with illness and disability and sex. They are not mutually exclusive and I find this line of thinking to be part of a pervasive able-bodied privilege that exists.
Also, many of us take seriously the in sickness & health part of vows that we take. And there are many ways to be sexually fulfilled.... I would hope that sexual incompatability would have been recognized and dealt with at the beginning of a relationship.

Then, again, sex is much more than a physical experience for me.

[Kobi]

When I started this thread, I was just curious how people view fidelity and how people have reacted to infidelity in their own lives.

It has been interesting to see the twists and turns that have occured as people insert their own scripts into the flow. There has been a celebrity focus, a sexes focus, a physical attractiveness focus, a sex focus, a violence focus, a few things I havent yet grasped focus, and even some personal feelings and experience focus!

This has kind of reinforced for me, how one needs to choose ones words carefully to minimize misinterpretation. Even then, there is no guarantee that what you meant is what will be heard or focused on.

It is a fascinating process to watch. And gives insights into how misunderstanding occur.

Having said this, I still want to know why Dylan wants to push Lance Armstrong off his bike.

[SuperFemme]

When I started this thread, I was just curious how people view fidelity and how people have reacted to infidelity in their own lives.

It has been interesting to see the twists and turns that have occured as people insert their own scripts into the flow. There has been a celebrity focus, a sexes focus, a physical attractiveness focus, a sex focus, a violence focus, a few things I havent yet grasped focus, and even some personal feelings and experience focus!

This has kind of reinforced for me, how one needs to choose ones words carefully to minimize misinterpretation. Even then, there is no guarantee that what you meant is what will be heard or focused on.

It is a fascinating process to watch. And gives insights into how misunderstanding occur.

Having said this, I still want to know why Dylan wants to push Lance Armstrong off his bike.



You left out Wolverine and the hooker.

This thread has been interesting, and I knew EXACTLY what you meant, but then another person posted, and another and another and now here we are. :pile:

[Dylan]

I'm too lazy to go find the Tiger Woods thread again, but I certainly got a good chuckle over Tiger's announcement that he will be rejoining the PGA tour to play in the Masters. I should have set my egg timer on that one. That is what his public apology was about, lol.

Whether Sandra Bullock is nice or not nice, what does that have to do with whether or not she deserves to be cheated on or whether anyone should feel badly for her? What does it matter if someone is considered good looking or "plain?" No one deserves to be cheated on.

If Poor Ol' Sandy had cheated on Jesse, I highly highly doubt ANYONE would be defending Jesse and asking "OMG! How could Sandy do such a thing...she's not a REAL woman. Jesse's got sooooooo much going for him. He's hot, he's brilliant, he's a strong man blah blah blah. Sandy just needs to 'woman up', because blah blah blah"

No one would be sending Jesse a Huggie Basket

But I'd bet money on what WOULD happen.

Jesse would still be made out to be a dick who had treated Sandy badly, and DROVE her to cheat. Jesse would have driven ApplePieSandy into the arms of another man.

When a man cheats on a 'beautiful woman' (and looks are just about all a woman's whole character is based on in this country. If she's pretty, well then "she's got a million [nameless] things going for her and she's brilliant" everyone said the same thing about that Hurley chick when Hughy cheated...oh, and where's her career today?), ohhhhhh my god the whole world crashes down, and people have to ask, "How could he cheat on Sandy/Elizabeth Hurley/whothefuckever" Ahhhhhh, but when a woman cheats on her husband, we either don't hear about it at all, because it's not big news, OR (usually), the man drove her to cheat by being such a big dick. Or there were some (excusable) extenuating circumstances (Christie Brinkley, anyone?)


Double Standard,
Dylan

[Dylan]

It's those damned sheeple bracelets that make me wanna push Lance off his bike

Oh, and he dated that whiner, and all of Austin had to hear about the star couple 24/7


Can't Stand Him, And I Don't Care If He's Shooting Steroids,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Dylan, I don't agree with you about the double standard. If anything women are held to a much higher standard, otherwise they are deemed to be a "slut" or worse. Oh and women do pay a very high price when they are thought to be cheating- often with their lives. See Martina's posts.

[SuperFemme]

If Poor Ol' Sandy had cheated on Jesse, I highly highly doubt ANYONE would be defending Jesse and asking "OMG! How could Sandy do such a thing...she's not a REAL woman. Jesse's got sooooooo much going for him. He's hot, he's brilliant, he's a strong man blah blah blah. Sandy just needs to 'woman up', because blah blah blah"

No one would be sending Jesse a Huggie Basket

But I'd bet money on what WOULD happen.

Jesse would still be made out to be a dick who had treated Sandy badly, and DROVE her to cheat. Jesse would have driven ApplePieSandy into the arms of another man.

When a man cheats on a 'beautiful woman' (and looks are just about all a woman's whole character is based on in this country. If she's pretty, well then "she's got a million [nameless] things going for her and she's brilliant" everyone said the same thing about that Hurley chick when Hughy cheated...oh, and where's her career today?), ohhhhhh my god the whole world crashes down, and people have to ask, "How could he cheat on Sandy/Elizabeth Hurley/whothefuckever" Ahhhhhh, but when a woman cheats on her husband, we either don't hear about it at all, because it's not big news, OR (usually), the man drove her to cheat by being such a big dick. Or there were some (excusable) extenuating circumstances (Christie Brinkley, anyone?)


Double Standard,
Dylan

Everyone thought Leanne Rhymes was a double douche for cheating on her hubby with a married man. Nobody sent her a huggy basket.

Cheating is shitty. Regardless of gender, and I think normally men get more of a pass on it than women do.

[Apocalipstic]

I do agree there is a huge double standard in perception, but people need to know that women cheat just as much.

Maybe women are sneakier?

[SuperFemme]

It's those damned sheeple bracelets that make me wanna push Lance off his bike

Oh, and he dated that whiner, and all of Austin had to hear about the star couple 24/7


Can't Stand Him, And I Don't Care If He's Shooting Steroids,
Dylan


Yeah. Supporting Cancer Patients/Research is super fucking annoying. Live Strong, but live Quietly I always say.

[Dylan]

Everyone thought Leanne Rhymes was a double douche for cheating on her hubby with a married man. Nobody sent her a huggy basket.

Cheating is shitty. Regardless of gender, and I think normally men get more of a pass on it than women do.

I didn't even hear about this.

But I couldn't turn on the radio or television without hearing about Sandy and Tiger or Hughy

Were there text messages? Were there 'reports' of *hundreds* of men she'd cheated with? Were people suggesting she step out of her career and give up singing? Were people commenting when she put out another record (like, "Pfffft, of course she wouldn't give up her entire career for being a philanderer...told ya' so"...like they are with Tiger?)

Were her emails being posted all over the news and selling for big bucks?


Dylan

[BullDog]

Women are held to much higher standards when it comes to sexuality and "morality." I can't believe anyone would even question this. It's so glaringly obvious.

Boys will be boys- how many times have we heard that?

[Dylan]

Yeah. Supporting Cancer Patients/Research is super fucking annoying. Live Strong, but live Quietly I always say.

HA! Nice try.

I'm all for supporting causes. I'm not down with donning a stupid piece of plastic to show what a mindless follower I am, just cuz Lance Armstrong asked me to and tossed out a catchy slogan he didn't even coin. It's the mark of sheeple. And then, of course, we have to have the different color swatches of plastic now, because every other organization had to follow suit (like what? sheeple) to get their piece of the sheeple pie too.

I feel the same about those stupid ribbons all over everyone's bumpers right now.


Nice Try On The Guilt Trip Though,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

HA! Nice try.

I'm all for supporting causes. I'm not down with donning a stupid piece of plastic to show what a mindless follower I am, just cuz Lance Armstrong asked me to and tossed out a catchy slogan he didn't even coin. It's the mark of sheeple. And then, of course, we have to have the different color swatches of plastic now, because every other organization had to follow suit (like what? sheeple) to get their piece of the sheeple pie too.

I feel the same about those stupid ribbons all over everyone's bumpers right now.


Nice Try On The Guilt Trip Though,
Dylan

I think Pink Ribbons for Breast Cancer and the Live Strong bracelets raise awareness. Sales of those items go towards research.

Most people know at least one person affected by some sort of cancer, which makes it personal.

So I disagree with you that it is *sheeple mentality* to participate in such awareness raising campaigns. For the most part, I think it's the opposite and quite personal.

No Guilt Trip,

Done derailing

[UofMfan]

I agree, to me it is very personal. And to have to read the very dismissal of the things that, yes even if corny and bothersome to people, have contributed to savings millions of lives, makes me a little angry.

How did we get from infidelity to this?

PS: I met Sandra Bullock in person, and she is even nicer than she appears on the screen. My opinion of course, we are all entitled to have one.



I think Pink Ribbons for Breast Cancer and the Live Strong bracelets raise awareness. Sales of those items go towards research.

Most people know at least one person affected by some sort of cancer, which makes it personal.

So I disagree with you that it is *sheeple mentality* to participate in such awareness raising campaigns. For the most part, I think it's the opposite and quite personal.

No Guilt Trip,

Done derailing

[SuperFemme]

Somehow we ended up going from infidelity to celebrity transgressions.

Then we crossed the bridge to "those poor guys" and how do we know they weren't forced to cheat? Because men always get the shit end of the stick when it comes to cheating.

Then my head exploded.

Again.

[Dylan]

Women are held to much higher standards when it comes to sexuality and "morality." I can't believe anyone would even question this. It's so glaringly obvious.

Boys will be boys- how many times have we heard that?

Who was questioning the sexuality and morality of women?

There is a much bigger double standard when women cheat on their husbands, and especially celebrity women.

I mean, you're here giving Tiger a hard time because he's not going to give up his career. We even had a Tiger Woods thread to discuss the whole (private) matter. Yet, I don't remember a thread about the LeAnn incident. Had there been a thread, I might have even known that she'd cheated (although, I still wouldn't have cared). When LeAnn cheated were you giving her the same gruff about her career? Did you roll your eyes when her next CD came out?

Was the husband hot? So hot he didn't deserve to be cheated on (because when it comes to celebrity cheating, apparently looks are the final deciding factor in whether or not someone 'deserved' to be cheated on)? Were there a bunch of outsiders stepping up to say how they'd have "treated him right" because he's so hot and brilliant and couldn't possibly ever do anything mean-spirited?

And to tie this back to Queerdom, because I could give a good rip about straight celebrities cheating on one another...we can see these exact same attitudes played out in ButchFemmeDom...even including the same commentary.

Butch cheats: oh, how could anyone cheat on SoAndSoFemme? She's got so much going for her. I wouldn't do that (even though I don't know her from Adam or Eve). ThatButch is such a dick. SoAndSoFemme is so hot. ThatButch needs to move out and blahblahblah

Femme cheats: Wow, ThatButch must be such a dick. I wonder what ThatButch did to deserve that.

I have yet to hear that either one should give up their careers though.


Have To Get Offline Soon,
Dylan

[theoddz]

Heh....looka how many otherwise "intelligent" minds are occupied in other people's business!! These are matters (that belong to *other* people and have no consequence to us in our own lives) that seem to draw so much fucking interest, sell trash magazines and usually are so far off base with the "truth" that it isn't even funny.

I wish that damned paparazzi who are so chasing gossip news like this would spend their resources and energy to draw the American attention to political matters that affect or are GOING to affect this country... and us all.

Trash magazines and trashy gossip TV be damned. :rant:

Okay, I'll stop. :|

~Theo~ :bouquet:.....being a curmudgeon again.

[BullDog]

Who was questioning the sexuality and morality of women?

There is a much bigger double standard when women cheat on their husbands, and especially celebrity women.

I mean, you're here giving Tiger a hard time because he's not going to give up his career. We even had a Tiger Woods thread to discuss the whole (private) matter. Yet, I don't remember a thread about the LeAnn incident. Had there been a thread, I might have even known that she'd cheated (although, I still wouldn't have cared). When LeAnn cheated were you giving her the same gruff about her career? Did you roll your eyes when her next CD came out?

Was the husband hot? So hot he didn't deserve to be cheated on (because when it comes to celebrity cheating, apparently looks are the final deciding factor in whether or not someone 'deserved' to be cheated on)? Were there a bunch of outsiders stepping up to say how they'd have "treated him right" because he's so hot and brilliant and couldn't possibly ever do anything mean-spirited?

And to tie this back to Queerdom, because I could give a good rip about straight celebrities cheating on one another...we can see these exact same attitudes played out in ButchFemmeDom...even including the same commentary.

Butch cheats: oh, how could anyone cheat on SoAndSoFemme? She's got so much going for her. I wouldn't do that (even though I don't know her from Adam or Eve). ThatButch is such a dick. SoAndSoFemme is so hot. ThatButch needs to move out and blahblahblah

Femme cheats: Wow, ThatButch must be such a dick. I wonder what ThatButch did to deserve that.

I have yet to hear that either one should give up their careers though.


Have To Get Offline Soon,
Dylan

I never gave Tiger a hard time on cheating. His press conference was an apology to his sponsors and a way for him to participate in this year's major tournaments. I said that then, and I said that now. I think he's a slime for lying and cheating (if he did cheat- since I don't know what he and his wife may or may not have agreed upon). I would think his wife was a slime if she cheated on him. I would think my next door neighbor was a slime if she cheated on whomever.

I missed the LeAnn incident. I'm not a big country music fan and don't watch tv, so I miss most of the celeb gossip.

I don't see the double standard within butch femme circles either. A lot of times a butch femme couple is two women, btw or two females,- one is butch and one is femme (not always of course)- so why would straight man/woman "standards" even apply. Anyway, I don't think cheating is viewed too kindly in butch femme circles whether it's a femme, butch, FTM or other gendered person doing it. I don't see the outcry being much different than within lesbian circles (where it is two women).

[Apocalipstic]

Again I say if people handle their business with honesty and respect then there are no problems.

[SuperFemme]

Again I say if people handle their business with honesty and respect then there are no problems.j

Amen Sistah! Emphasis on *people*. :sheep:

[Soon]

Getting back to Leanne Rimes thingie--the rumour is that her husband is gay--but who knows.

Also, she left her marriage very shortly after her affair was (sorta) outted--they were spotted a restaurant. (he left his wife too) Now, they are together. There wasn't a huge maligning of Leanne, probably b/c they both left their marriages and are together?

Tiger and Jesse seem to be a bit different in the volume of women involved and the fact that they all seem very umm...short term fuck kinda situations. Also, I think with the Jesse/Sandra one, it was particularly painful (for some) to watch it unravel because she had just made the publicity rounds at all the awards' shows (and interviews) proclaiming her love for this man whom she felt "had her back" and trusted like no one else prior to him--which is why she married him. The sympathy for Elin might be b/c she is a mother of two young ones and also, possibly, the public shock of the image reversed of Tiger as being this role model of sorts and a solid *family* man.

I am a total follower of the celebrity goss. I need the scoop.

Oh, I also think that if a wife cheated in the manner of Tiger/Jesse, her character assassination would be just as thorough (if not more!) by the tabloids/press/public. A MOTHER cheating with a bunch of (mostly unsavory!) men (w/o protection!) just b/c she just wanted to get laid?--A LOT! I don't think that would go over with anyone. Her image and endorsements would be gone (I think) and even a trip to good ol' sex rehab might not ever rehabilitate her career.

[SuperFemme]

I am madly in love with my honey. I swore I'd never do marriage again, yet I took the leap with hym and feel like hy is the best thing since hair clippies.

I would die a thousand deaths if suddenly everyone in our circle starting coming forward with proof of not just one affair, but multiple affairs. That horrible feeling you feel when everyone knows but you.

I'd leave hym in a hot second. We have not negotiated anything other than monogamy at this point. So yeah, I feel for Sandra Bullock. I feel for Elin Woods too, but think she should be glad Tiger kept mum about her attack on him. Violence is never okay.

[Cyclopea]

YouTube- Sex Rehab Commercial

[julieisafemme]

You know the thing that bums me out about all of this is that gossip is incredibly painful. Having your private life broadcast to everyone is painful. It happens to lots of people besides celebrities. You don't have to be famous for people to get a big thrill about talking about you. The past year I have been the subject of gossip. People I trusted and told things to then went out and shared my business with other people. That has affected my kid who is an innocent bystander in all of this. It has affected my partner who asked for none of this. Jews call it lashon hara or evil tongue. So whether it is a famous person or the lady at work or your neighbor it is all bad.

Unless the person is an elected official who is representing me and making decisions about my life none of it is my business. Even if they are famous. Even if they take advantage of that fame to promote their own agendas.

[Queerasfck]

I have to say it was pretty interesting on the radio today they were discussing of all things, the book The Scarlet Letter. It was brought up back in those puritan times so long ago that the gossip and judging gave people something else to think about. I don't really think it's much different today. Scandal, cheating, all of the lies, it gives people something else to dwell on, rather than themselves or their own problems, or even still the bigger, depressing problems in the world today. I have to say sometimes when the "mighty" fall it's sort of amusing to me. Depends on the person/circumstances.

[SuperFemme]

You know the thing that bums me out about all of this is that gossip is incredibly painful. Having your private life broadcast to everyone is painful. It happens to lots of people besides celebrities. You don't have to be famous for people to get a big thrill about talking about you. The past year I have been the subject of gossip. People I trusted and told things to then went out and shared my business with other people. That has affected my kid who is an innocent bystander in all of this. It has affected my partner who asked for none of this. Jews call it lashon hara or evil tongue. So whether it is a famous person or the lady at work or your neighbor it is all bad.

Unless the person is an elected official who is representing me and making decisions about my life none of it is my business. Even if they are famous. Even if they take advantage of that fame to promote their own agendas.

I'm sorry that happened to you. The kids are the biggest victims in highly publicized cases because that stuff is all over the interwebz forever. It is absolutely none of our business. You are so right.

[Soon]

That sucks Julie, and I'm sorry for you.

However, I feel no guilt picking up a celebrity magazine or visiting the sites and don't feel it is wrong of me, either. It is an indulgence and form of escapism for sure.


I love when my husband comes home with a Kit Kat and The Star (or some such)! Fill up the tub with bubbles and ahhhh!

[SuperFemme]

That sucks Julie, and I'm sorry for you.

However, I feel no guilt picking up a celebrity magazine or visiting the sites and don't feel it is wrong of me, either. It is an indulgence and form of escapism for sure.


I love when my husband comes home with a Kit Kat and The Star (or some such)! Fill up the tub with bubbles and ahhhh!




It's the media that is ridiculous, not the consumer so much. I love the way people demand a statement, apology, what not. The media is paying 30k for the dirt from the parties involved....so yeah. It's kind of like a car wreck you can't look away from sometimes.

[Apocalipstic]

It makes me so thankful I am not famous.

[Soon]

It's the media that is ridiculous, not the consumer so much. I love the way people demand a statement, apology, what not. The media is paying 30k for the dirt from the parties involved....so yeah. It's kind of like a car wreck you can't look away from sometimes.

I can't look away--so true!

I get what you are saying, here.

I can't believe how obsessed I have become over the Sandra/Jesse thing--it's embarrassing, but oh well.

I think it's because I was practically in tears listening to her on Barbra Walter's special and her speech at the Golden Globes the week before and how DAMN SURE she was about him. She didn't even care about marriage until she met him (and I can relate to that!). She really truly believed this was the first guy who was strong enough for her (her words) and that she trusted completely.

I think she was fooled completely and it does make you wonder about...wow, do you ever REALLY know someone? She was SO SURE about him! (and really cared about and loved his kids too) Ugh.

[Queerasfck]

That sucks Julie, and I'm sorry for you.

But, I feel no guilt picking up a celebrity magazine or visiting the sites and don't feel it is wrong of me, either. It is an indulgence and form of escapism for sure.



I agree. Celebrities and pro athletes such as Tiger Woods live their lives in the spotlight and no matter how much they hate it or avoid it that's the way it is. I don't think Sandra/Jesse & all those others deserve to have reporters at their front door but they have traded a certain amount of their privacy for their success. That's the way it goes.
It is not the same thing to me if you are gossiping about someone you actually know or even if you just know them online. I'm not into that kind of drama/gossip.

[SuperFemme]

I can't look away--so true!

I get what you are saying, here.

I can't believe how obsessed I have become over the Sandra/Jesse thing--it's embarrassing, but oh well.

I think it's because I was practically in tears listening to her on Barbra Walter's special and her speech at the Golden Globes the week before and how DAMN SURE she was about him. She didn't even care about marriage until she met him (and I can relate to that!). She really truly believed this was the first guy who was strong enough for her (her words) and that she trusted completely.

I think she was fooled completely and it does make you wonder about...wow, do you ever REALLY know someone? She was SO SURE about him! (and really cared about and loved his kids too) Ugh.j

Well. I have two words for you: Balloon Boy.
I'm still not over that. :jack:

[Andrew, Jr.]

Did anyone watch The Today Show when Matt Lauer talked about the latest trend on the internet? I almost fell out of my chair, and Dino would have taken a nasty fall to the floor as well. Long story short, it is when people go online to social network sites like facebook, twitter, and so on and post horrible things about someone's child who had died. They used the example of the Mass girl who committed suicide, and went to her memorial page and showed the horrible messages left for her parents/family/friends to read. Some even included a rope that was in the shape of a neuse.

The next example was a young woman who commited suicide by driving her father's porche into a toll booth. Pictures of her mangled body ended up all over the web. When her mother went to her daughter's facebook page, she saw what her child looked like for the first time. She was told by the funeral director that she should just remember her daughter as she was. It was a closed casket funeral.

Then Matt Lauer interviewed some executive from an organization setup to try to stop this behavior, because it is not illegal as of yet. She was with wiredsafety.org. She said that these people are "trolls" and come from all over the world. They seek out to intentionally hurt others. That is their one goal. How horrible and sad. But more importantly, they are not who they say they are, and some are using other people's computers. The laws just are not there yet to protect anyone from this.

Julieisafemme, you are not alone. I had the same experience as you. :bigcry: :blues:

[Queerasfck]

I can't look away--so true!

I get what you are saying, here.

I can't believe how obsessed I have become over the Sandra/Jesse thing--it's embarrassing, but oh well.

I think it's because I was practically in tears listening to her on Barbra Walter's special and her speech at the Golden Globes the week before and how DAMN SURE she was about him. She didn't even care about marriage until she met him (and I can relate to that!). She really truly believed this was the first guy who was strong enough for her (her words) and that she trusted completely.

I think she was fooled completely and it does make you wonder about...wow, do you ever REALLY know someone? She was SO SURE about him! (and really cared about and loved his kids too) Ugh.

Me speculating. I feel like maybe there were some signs she over looked, maybe she should have known. Look at his previous wife. He's a bad boy. She wanted a bad boy. She got a bad boy. Me speculating and being judgy.

[julieisafemme]

No need to feel sorry for me. Or judged. I'm a grown up and take responsibility for the things I told people and the actions people are gossiping about. What I am trying to point out is that collateral damage of gossip on those indirectly involved. My partner's gender and sexuality is discussed amongst people who do not know him and have never had a conversation with me about it. That's gross.


That sucks Julie, and I'm sorry for you.

However, I feel no guilt picking up a celebrity magazine or visiting the sites and don't feel it is wrong of me, either. It is an indulgence and form of escapism for sure.


I love when my husband comes home with a Kit Kat and The Star (or some such)! Fill up the tub with bubbles and ahhhh!

[Soon]

No need to feel sorry for me. Or judged. I'm a grown up and take responsibility for the things I told people and the actions people are gossiping about. What I am trying to point out is that collateral damage of gossip on those indirectly involved. My partner's gender and sexuality is discussed amongst people who do not know him and have never had a conversation with me about it. That's gross.

What I meant to say, is...I'm sorry that happened or is happening to you and yours. I didn't word it properly, but that is what I meant. I am sorry you are going or have gone through this; I am also not immune to these sorts of discussions and speculations among people who don't even know us or have our best interests at heart.

I agree what happened or is happening to you was/is wrong. For sure.

[Soon]

Me speculating. I feel like maybe there were some signs she over looked, maybe she should have known. Look at his previous wife. He's a bad boy. She wanted a bad boy. She got a bad boy. Me speculating and being judgy.

I just heard the same response from someone I know....


my mom! hee!

I said but Mommmmm...she wanted to BELIEVE!!! (I'm all on the side of being swept away by someone later in life...(wonder why that is?! haha!).

[Kobi]

I think it's because I was practically in tears listening to her on Barbra Walter's special and her speech at the Golden Globes the week before and how DAMN SURE she was about him. She didn't even care about marriage until she met him (and I can relate to that!). She really truly believed this was the first guy who was strong enough for her (her words) and that she trusted completely.

I think she was fooled completely and it does make you wonder about...wow, do you ever REALLY know someone? She was SO SURE about him! (and really cared about and loved his kids too) Ugh.

I might just be getting cynical in my old age, but whenever someone makes a public pronouncement of how wonderful their relationship is, it sets off all kinds of red flags for me.

I am thinking either they are trying to convince themselves and/or others of something they are not sure about, or they have their heads so high in the clouds, they are a victim in the making.

[Soon]

I might just be getting cynical in my old age, but whenever someone makes a public pronouncement of how wonderful their relationship is, it sets off all kinds of red flags for me.

I am thinking either they are trying to convince themselves and/or others of something they are not sure about, or they have their heads so high in the clouds, they are a victim in the making.

Interesting to think about.


Prior to this marriage, she was always pretty quiet about her personal life. I think she felt secure enough to discuss her thoughts on marriage and how it made her a better person and actor because she truly believed in the veracity of his love for her. If that's having her head in the clouds and being a victim in the making, that's a bit sad.


I'm not sure I'm with the first theory of trying to convince herself. But, we'll never know what she knew or was thinking. Personally, watching the footage of her discussing her love for him--it seemed very natural and not contrived to convince herself or anyone.

I think that is what would get to me the most--telling everyone how my marriage and guy made my life so much better--how incredible he is--meanwhile he's been betraying me throughout.

[Kobi]

Interesting to think about.


Prior to this marriage, she was always pretty quiet about her personal life. I think she felt secure enough to discuss her thoughts on marriage and how it made her a better person and actor because she truly believed in the veracity of his love for her. If that's having her head in the clouds and being a victim in the making, that's a bit sad.


I'm not sure I'm with the first theory of trying to convince herself. But, we'll never know what she knew or was thinking. Personally, watching the footage of her discussing her love for him--it seemed very natural and not contrived to convince herself or anyone.

I think that is what would get to me the most--telling everyone how my marriage and guy made my life so much better--how incredible he is, while he's been betraying me throughout.Only they know the truth, maybe. I just know what process is set off for me when I hear something like this.

And, I do believe there are always clues to cheating which we often choose to ignore. People are patterns of behavior. When the pattern changes, its time to look at whats happening.

[Martina]

It's misogynistic IN THE EXTREME to say that women are given a pass on infidelity. IN THE EXTREME. It shouldn't be tolerated here. It's not civilized conversation. Women have been killed and put in mental institutions for infidelity. In the subculture i come from, it's assumed that men will cheat. It's a remarkable man who doesn't. If a woman cheats, everyone is concerned that her husband or boyfriend might kill her and whoever she slept with.

In the past it's been considered justifiable to kill a woman for infidelity. It still is in some places. It's also been an excuse to take children away from women.

There is long history of violence associated with this issue.

i cannot believe anyone would assert that women are given a pass on this. i do not think any assertion that they are is an innocent one.

[SuperFemme]

It's misogynistic IN THE EXTREME to say that women are given a pass on infidelity. IN THE EXTREME. It shouldn't be tolerated here. It's not civilized conversation. Women have been killed and put in mental institutions for infidelity. In the subculture i come from, it's assumed that men will cheat. It's a remarkable man who doesn't. If a woman cheats, everyone is concerned that her husband or boyfriend might kill her and whoever she slept with.

In the past it's been considered justifiable to kill a woman for infidelity. It still is in some places. It's also been an excuse to take children away from women.

There is long history of violence associated with this issue.

i cannot believe anyone would assert that women are given a pass on this. i do not think any assertion that they are is an innocent one.

If being publicly happy about your relationship is a red flag, then we've lost all hope.

It is also beyond ridiculous to believe that women are given a pass.

[The_Lady_Snow]

What I do not understand is......

Why the hell are we surprised when a celebrity marriage goes down the tubes?

I mean come on really folks, they get married what every 6 to 14 months, on the bf.dom people are in love and pretend married what every 2 to 7 months?

It's no different, for some unknown fucked up reason, we love to stick our noses in shit, no matter how bad it smells....

[Martina]

If being publicly happy about your relationship is a red flag, then we've lost all hope.


i missed that part. i hope we can all be publicly happy about our relationships.

[Gemme]

When I started this thread, I was just curious how people view fidelity and how people have reacted to infidelity in their own lives.



This thread's topic became very relavent to me, as of last night. Julie mentioned collateral damage. Well, insert my picture and a couple others in the dictionary for that, because that's where I'm at now. :blink:

How do people react? Let's see....there was screaming and shouting and crying....me trying to soothe the dogs who were going crazy because they don't like fighting....something got slammed into the wall and the 30 pound vacuum cleaner was hauled upstairs....a friend from work was called in to help diffuse the situation and/or provide a witness....threats of calling the other's command and potentially ending what has been a prestigious career thus far....me turning the TV up and holding the dogs close because if I go upstairs I would be all up in other people's Koolaid....one friend standing in stony silence and the other crying so hard she could hardly breathe...the hapless 'witness' awkwardly standing in the corner rubbing his head and taking off and putting on his hat over and over again....and now, less than 24 hours after it began, I don't know whether I and our other housemate need to start looking for another place to live since a realtor was at the house this morning estimating its value, the offending party has been kicked out and other party is still pushing at the bit to go to his command, not realizing the fallout of that decision not only for him, but for her as well.

Yeah, it kinda looks like that. :(

[Boots13]

Infidelity is narcissism at its prime
it is gluttony beyond any sense of the word
it is an intentional chaotic act of power
and a fractal act of cowardice by a pig unable to comprehend the
incalculable effects of self absorption.
it is unforgivable.

I felt for you Softness.
I, too, lost my home when I walked away. A barn and kennels that I built, fields that I fenced, and a house that overlooked a lake and valley. I sold it for a song and walked away suffering a huge financial and emotional loss after discovering the affair. No counseling, no negotiation, no forgiveness, nothing. Done.

I came to understand that losing my home hurt more than the affair. The person I shared it with was someone I ultimately didn't know, nor did I care to. Retrospect is so clear.

It happened to me twice.

I also swore that nobody. NOBODY would hold sway over my emotions. If I wouldn't dive headfirst into emotions then it wasn't time to do anything but enjoy friends and spend time with family. And when I was ready I opened up , completely, again.

I've never looked back, other than to clearly define the act of infidelity as nothing but a self-absorbed act of cowardice and destruction.

By the way, can you tell I have ZERO tolerance.

[theoddz]

I might just be getting cynical in my old age, but whenever someone makes a public pronouncement of how wonderful their relationship is, it sets off all kinds of red flags for me.

I am thinking either they are trying to convince themselves and/or others of something they are not sure about, or they have their heads so high in the clouds, they are a victim in the making.

No, you're not getting cynical.

Like the rest of us who also spot that sort of thing, you've just got a good nose for bullshittery. :winky:

Fairytales are for books and the gullible because people are human.

Relationships take work and the only "perfect" part of how they work is how successful the parties are at working things out.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Soft*Silver]

[QUOTE=Boots13;76696]
I came to understand that losing my home hurt more than the affair. The person I shared it with was someone I ultimately didn't know, nor did I care to. Retrospect is so clear. QUOTE]

Oh a big AMEN to this! I can do without a cheating partner. I can date and find another one...but I cant recapture my childhood farm. I lost it and my dream of raising horses. I had it all there, in the cup of my hands, but because I wasn't "available" to him because I was in so much pain over a broken dislocated shoulder, he felt it justified him going outside of our marraige.

Never again will I let go of a house for a partner. Never again will I let someone give me then take away a home. I own my own home now, free and clear. I am also living contently single....

[Dude]

I have cheated and i have been cheated on, so I don't do relationships anymore. The thing about that scum ass Jesse James is that he was never man enough to handle her success. He's weak enough to act out being shown up by her limelight and tremendous success. She's gorgeous; brilliant, level and has million things going for her....any man who's a real man would die for that and he's nothing but a sleaze ass fuckin' baby who was nothing without her. Prick. My .02

looks like Sandra found her "real man" and she doesn't even know it yet:seconddoh:

maybe you can photo shop the two of you in the alps or something?


hoping the sig line pic gets quoted, so it is clear what I'm referring to....
sigh....no it didnt....holy hell with spam on top


"real men" don't like quiche anyways :watereyes:
plus I always spell virile ...viral
damn it

[Apocalipstic]

I might just be getting cynical in my old age, but whenever someone makes a public pronouncement of how wonderful their relationship is, it sets off all kinds of red flags for me.

I am thinking either they are trying to convince themselves and/or others of something they are not sure about, or they have their heads so high in the clouds, they are a victim in the making.

It makes me sad to think that talking about having a wonderful relationship is a red flag.

How has infidelity looked in my life?
That sick feeling in my stomach when I KNOW something has been going on
losing my place to live
losing who I thought was my best friend...for a time
it all being blamed on me
thinking I was losing my mind
being told I was crazy and jealous
having my partner's girfriend's husband knocking on my window at 3am looking for his wife while I was keeping her kids
having my partner move a new G/F into our house after a week
finding out it was all worse than my most extreme fears....

But the good is, I am stronger and happier and have a great life. I refuse to think of my 5 year relationship now as a red flag. It is good and we work hard at making it so.

Yes I have forgiven those who cheated on me, compared to other stuff that is happened in my life, being cheated on is far from the worst thing that can happen. Far.

[AtLast]

Kobi-

This is a grand community of diverse thinking! Thanks for the thread.

When I started this thread, I was just curious how people view fidelity and how people have reacted to infidelity in their own lives.

It has been interesting to see the twists and turns that have occured as people insert their own scripts into the flow. There has been a celebrity focus, a sexes focus, a physical attractiveness focus, a sex focus, a violence focus, a few things I havent yet grasped focus, and even some personal feelings and experience focus!

This has kind of reinforced for me, how one needs to choose ones words carefully to minimize misinterpretation. Even then, there is no guarantee that what you meant is what will be heard or focused on.

It is a fascinating process to watch. And gives insights into how misunderstanding occur.

Having said this, I still want to know why Dylan wants to push Lance Armstrong off his bike.

[AtLast]

If Poor Ol' Sandy had cheated on Jesse, I highly highly doubt ANYONE would be defending Jesse and asking "OMG! How could Sandy do such a thing...she's not a REAL woman. Jesse's got sooooooo much going for him. He's hot, he's brilliant, he's a strong man blah blah blah. Sandy just needs to 'woman up', because blah blah blah"

No one would be sending Jesse a Huggie Basket

But I'd bet money on what WOULD happen.

Jesse would still be made out to be a dick who had treated Sandy badly, and DROVE her to cheat. Jesse would have driven ApplePieSandy into the arms of another man.

When a man cheats on a 'beautiful woman' (and looks are just about all a woman's whole character is based on in this country. If she's pretty, well then "she's got a million [nameless] things going for her and she's brilliant" everyone said the same thing about that Hurley chick when Hughy cheated...oh, and where's her career today?), ohhhhhh my god the whole world crashes down, and people have to ask, "How could he cheat on Sandy/Elizabeth Hurley/whothefuckever" Ahhhhhh, but when a woman cheats on her husband, we either don't hear about it at all, because it's not big news, OR (usually), the man drove her to cheat by being such a big dick. Or there were some (excusable) extenuating circumstances (Christie Brinkley, anyone?)


Double Standard,
Dylan

There is a big double-standard with this going on. And now, the rumors of James (the bad boy) going into rehab/treatment.... hummmm... for sex addiction? This is the new Hollywood, rich athelete answer to cheating. I believe this addiction exists, however, the rich stars will use it as an excuse for behavior and if addicted, won't really do the work necessary to recover. I watched LKL last night and some of the same old BS about men just not being able to help themselves with sex (and the other women are always the temptress) bullshit was being spewed. Actually, the whole interview was one of the most sexist pile of horse-dung I have seen in a long time. Sexist about both men and women. Equal opportunity stereotypes abound!

Women cheat, too. And I don't believe we have accurate stats on the actual numbers because of this double standard. I am also tired of men being viewed as slaves to their penis!

Why the hell don't we talk about how we make choices for ourselves in relationships and take responsibility for when we make mistakes? Also, in the context of these celebrity situations, why people think the dynamics are within any kind of norm (term used loosly) anything like what the rtest of us experience is just nuts to me. But, it sells!!!

Anyone want to talk about the meaning of character?

[SuperFemme]

Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;77007]Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.[/QU

I don't feel any pity for these guys at all. And it is the patriarchal traditions that are at the bottom of the men will be men stuff. But, why aren’t we talking about the entire state of being able to make a commitment and stick to it (if a monogamous marriage/relationship is what we commit to) instead of differentiating along gender?

One is either has an honorable character, or not. Doesn't matter if male or female, or combination, thereof.

[Apocalipstic]

the rehab for sex addiction actually cracks me up

[SuperFemme]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;77007]Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.[/QU

I don't feel any pity for these guys at all. And it is the patriarchal traditions that are at the bottom of the men will be men stuff. But, why aren’t we talking about the entire state of being able to make a commitment and stick to it (if a monogamous marriage/relationship is what we commit to) instead of differentiating along gender?

One is either has an honorable character, or not. Doesn't matter if male or female, or combination, thereof.

That is what we HAVE been talking about in this thread for the most part. Most of us in between twists and turns were speaking about OUR feeling on fidelity. Female, Male, Butch, Femme and TG.

If by *We* you mean the media? Well....let's take a look at who controls the media.

I have a conspiracy theory: John Edwards PAID Jesse James and Tiger Woods to screw around so the focus could be taken off of him fathering a baby during the election and letting his top aide claim paternity. There is even a John Edwards sex tape.

Who are we hearing about though? Never fuck on the grassy knoll people. :harley:

[Plato]

Who are we hearing about though? Never fuck on the grassy knoll people. :harley:
Since you know I "listen" visually ... now I want to **** upon a grassy knoll ...
Good thing it's Spring and the hills around us are GREEN!
:gimmehug:

[SuperFemme]

Since you know I "listen" visually ... now I want to **** upon a grassy knoll ...
Good thing it's Spring and the hills around us are GREEN!
:gimmehug:

At least I know it is ME you want to take to the knoll.
If tomorrow it came out that you'd have ten or twelve flings
without me watching? I would hope people would feel bad for
poor, sweet, little ole' me. On the flip side, it the opposite were
to happen? You could always revert to my cheating slogan.
"I'll cut a bitch".

[Plato]

At least I know it is ME you want to take to the knoll.
If tomorrow it came out that you'd have ten or twelve flings
without me watching? I would hope people would feel bad for
poor, sweet, little ole' me. On the flip side, it the opposite were
to happen? You could always revert to my cheating slogan.
"I'll cut a bitch".

We are not emotional Cheaters or any other type of disrespectful treatment of each other. :ohm:
lol
The teenager is using your motto already ... :lol2:

[Dylan]

There is a big double-standard with this going on. And now, the rumors of James (the bad boy) going into rehab/treatment.... hummmm... for sex addiction? This is the new Hollywood, rich athelete answer to cheating. I believe this addiction exists, however, the rich stars will use it as an excuse for behavior and if addicted, won't really do the work necessary to recover. I watched LKL last night and some of the same old BS about men just not being able to help themselves with sex (and the other women are always the temptress) bullshit was being spewed. Actually, the whole interview was one of the most sexist pile of horse-dung I have seen in a long time. Sexist about both men and women. Equal opportunity stereotypes abound!

Women cheat, too. And I don't believe we have accurate stats on the actual numbers because of this double standard. I am also tired of men being viewed as slaves to their penis!

Why the hell don't we talk about how we make choices for ourselves in relationships and take responsibility for when we make mistakes? Also, in the context of these celebrity situations, why people think the dynamics are within any kind of norm (term used loosly) anything like what the rtest of us experience is just nuts to me. But, it sells!!!

Anyone want to talk about the meaning of character?

What's LKL?

I thought we were talking about making choices for ourselves.

And one of *my* meanings of 'character' is not basing someone's 'worth' solely on his/her looks...especially when it comes to celebrities. It chaps my ass whenever I hear comments like, "[Sandy] didn't deserve this because she's beautiful, and brilliant, and has a million things going for her. I would have treated her sooooooooooo much better."

It chaps my ass on so many levels. The main reason being the person who usually says this about celebrities has never DEALT with the celebrity. The entirety of the comment is based on public facade and (9 times outta 10) LOOKS. So, what does that mean? Does an not-so-attractive woman 'deserve' to be cheated on? And how in the hell does anyone know what it's like to live with Sandy (for example, altho the same shit was said about Eliza Hurley). I mean, seriously, maybe she's just a hideous person to deal with. Maybe a million things. But no, she's deemed attractive, so she MUST be just a complete joy to live with.

And who said anything about feeling 'pity' for men? I said there's a double standard. NO ONE says the same thing about the men who are cheated on (i.e. "OMG, he's sooooo hot, I would treat him right, he's brilliant and has a million things going for him...blah blah blah). No, the same things aren't said. And again, it goes back to sexism, because women are just delicate little flowers who need to be taken care of and "treated right" and all that other systematic sexist bullshit.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Men don't usually lose their children or their lives for cheating either.

Cheating sucks EVEN if the other half is heinous to live with. That's not an excuse for infidelity, it's a reason to break up.

[Rufusboi]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;77007]Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.[/QU

I don't feel any pity for these guys at all. And it is the patriarchal traditions that are at the bottom of the men will be men stuff. But, why aren’t we talking about the entire state of being able to make a commitment and stick to it (if a monogamous marriage/relationship is what we commit to) instead of differentiating along gender?

One is either has an honorable character, or not. Doesn't matter if male or female, or combination, thereof.



Maybe as human beings we are not hard wired for monogomy. Marriage, coupledom, nuclear family is cultural. It is something we invented. The root of marriage is economic. My history is spotty here but it was at one point (in the west) to tie families together politically and economically. Also, I've read it was to ensure men that the baby was his and not someone elses so that he could pass his money, land etc down to a genetic relative (again, all patriarchy) plus throw in marriage as a way to control women's sexuality (ironically) and women as property passed from father to husband and so on and so on. Yet really, the whole institution is entirely unnatural and who says monogomy is natural and why are we tying character to something I don't believe we are genetically wired to be.

Having said this, I am monogomous and believe that if you and your partner have the expectation of monogomy and fidelity and this is what a couple agree to then you should live up to that agreement. I don't feel pity for James, Woods or anyone that cheats and gets caught and then has to deal with the fall out, whether male or female.

But in the grand scheme of things I think that we as humans are not wired for monogamy. And I think if we stop putting so much emphasis on marriage and instead emphasize the importance of being truthful ( admit that we can't be monogomous and let a potential partner know the relationship has to be an open relationship) or hell, in Woods' case, just stay single and have sex with lots of women (and not tell them you love them) then people won't get hurt). Part of the problem is that people can't just say .... I'd love to have sex with you, but before we do this please know it is a one time, one weekend thing, I don't want a relationship, I don't love you etc etc.

Well I'm rambling now......so I'll stop here.

Rufus

[Martina]

I said there's a double standard. NO ONE says the same thing about the men who are cheated on (i.e. "OMG, he's sooooo hot, I would treat him right, he's brilliant and has a million things going for him...blah blah blah). No, the same things aren't said. And again, it goes back to sexism, because women are just delicate little flowers who need to be taken care of and "treated right" and all that other systematic sexist bullshit.
Dylan

Double standard? What kind of double standard is that? A double standard means some rules are applied more strictly to one group than another. If that is so, then, yes, there is a double standard where infidelity is concerned. And it is women who suffer as a result of it.

Thousands of women are beaten up and killed every year because of accusations of infidelity. Some men are too. That's the double standard. i cannot believe you repeated that. i cannot believe you would say it in a public forum where most of the participants are women. How hostile do you intend to be?

Who gives a crap what people say when others have relationship issues? Most people with an average IQ wouldn't say ANY of those things you quoted, yet you use their blathering as an excuse to say men have a harder time in our culture than women do where this issue is concerned? i don't think so. Take a body count.

i am sure there are some issues in our culture where women benefit from a double standard. This is NOT ONE of them. To say so -- and to keep saying it -- is appalling. It's hostile. It's misogynistic. WTF?

[The_Lady_Snow]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;77007]Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.[/QU

I don't feel any pity for these guys at all. And it is the patriarchal traditions that are at the bottom of the men will be men stuff. But, why aren’t we talking about the entire state of being able to make a commitment and stick to it (if a monogamous marriage/relationship is what we commit to) instead of differentiating along gender?

One is either has an honorable character, or not. Doesn't matter if male or female, or combination, thereof.


I thought we were discussing relationships... I thought what we were doing is discussing that maybe just maybe we put to much time and energy into the lives of others and not enough into our own?

I dunno I think it oogy, that so many people are like ohhhh poor lil Sandra.. I mean what do we know about her really, should it matter who it is? Would it be just as bad if it had happened to say, the woman with the 4 kids with the mole on her chin down the street?

Wait wait we do not hear about the trials and tribulations of the people in building 899 apt 455. WHY?? Cause there is no one following them, idolizing them, or thinking ooooO--- Aaaaah that Sandy Chicharoon did not deserve her husband cheating on her, leaving her with no food, 5 kids and the pets, she didn't deserve that..

No, we are to busy worrying about El Tigre Woods, Leanna Rhimes, Jesse James, what's that guys name from the kid show......

Thinkin...

Oh yes John Gosselin......

Really???

WHO CARES!!!

There is a Pope out there hiding out priests who have molested over 200 deaf boys...

Pedophilia hiding is far worse than all this other shit..

At least that is what I think...

[SuperFemme]

[quote=AtLastHome;77019]


I thought we were discussing relationships... I thought what we were doing is discussing that maybe just maybe we put to much time and energy into the lives of others and not enough into our own?

I dunno I think it oogy, that so many people are like ohhhh poor lil Sandra.. I mean what do we know about her really, should it matter who it is? Would it be just as bad if it had happened to say, the woman with the 4 kids with the mole on her chin down the street?

Wait wait we do not hear about the trials and tribulations of the people in building 899 apt 455. WHY?? Cause there is no one following them, idolizing them, or thinking ooooO--- Aaaaah that Sandy Chicharoon did not deserve her husband cheating on her, leaving her with no food, 5 kids and the pets, she didn't deserve that..

No, we are to busy worrying about El Tigre Woods, Leanna Rhimes, Jesse James, what's that guys name from the kid show......

Thinkin...

Oh yes John Gosselin......

Really???

WHO CARES!!!

There is a Pope out there hiding out priests who have molested over 200 deaf boys...

Pedophile hiding is far worse than all this other shit..

At least that is what I think...

There are about a hundred things that I can think of off the top of my head that are worse than cheating.

But you win with the Pope and his band of merry priests.

[Soon]

Reading People magazine online right now and this is an example of a woman cheating from years ago and the nation's reaction:

INGRID BERGMAN
While filming 1950's Stromboli, the Casablanca beauty fell for married director Roberto Rossellini, whom she left her own husband and daughter for. The affair scandalized the nation, leading Bergman to being blacklisted in Hollywood – and even denounced on the Senate floor as a "powerful influence for evil."

[AtLast]

What's LKL?

I thought we were talking about making choices for ourselves.

And one of *my* meanings of 'character' is not basing someone's 'worth' solely on his/her looks...especially when it comes to celebrities. It chaps my ass whenever I hear comments like, "[Sandy] didn't deserve this because she's beautiful, and brilliant, and has a million things going for her. I would have treated her sooooooooooo much better."

It chaps my ass on so many levels. The main reason being the person who usually says this about celebrities has never DEALT with the celebrity. The entirety of the comment is based on public facade and (9 times outta 10) LOOKS. So, what does that mean? Does an not-so-attractive woman 'deserve' to be cheated on? And how in the hell does anyone know what it's like to live with Sandy (for example, altho the same shit was said about Eliza Hurley). I mean, seriously, maybe she's just a hideous person to deal with. Maybe a million things. But no, she's deemed attractive, so she MUST be just a complete joy to live with.

And who said anything about feeling 'pity' for men? I said there's a double standard. NO ONE says the same thing about the men who are cheated on (i.e. "OMG, he's sooooo hot, I would treat him right, he's brilliant and has a million things going for him...blah blah blah). No, the same things aren't said. And again, it goes back to sexism, because women are just delicate little flowers who need to be taken care of and "treated right" and all that other systematic sexist bullshit.


Dylan



Oh, Larry King Live. (LKL).. Tuesday night. Actually, it was a lousy group of interviewees. And the experts on sexual addictions were just not articulate at all. Not a very good representation of the fact that it can be an addictive and destructive situation for some people.

There was also a whole lotta stereotyping of both men and women going on! Which for me, gets in the way of looking at this in terms of addiction. This, and the latest celebrity sex rehab scenarios without people in the field that know what they are talking about.

JeepSakes, I agreed with you about the double standard... and the looks stuff as well. And, we all have different ideas of beauty, anyway. But, only people that are considered, beautiful, deserve to be treated well?? WTF is that?

I am right with you concerning personal choices.... I hate it when someone says they are lucky (re: about their relationship & partner). It isn't about luck at all, it is about taking care of yourself and choosing well. And having what it takes to be effective as a partner and knowing the art of cooperation. I know I make very conscious decisions about relationships and who I even date. Sure, I recognize that someone is a great choice, but I don't role dice in choosing to find out if someone is right for me (and themselves). And just because I might be smitten, doesn't mean I will turn away from what I know has to there in order to have a healthy relationship with someone. I make choices.

I had hoped with the Tiger Woods fiasco, that some good information would get out about sexual addictions, but, don't think it is. People don't want to deal with this. And they especially don't want to in terms of male stereotypes. They are much more able to think in terms of sex addiction with women, really... and stereotypes around sex abuse and histrionic personality variables (more stereotypes, usually).

Anything that gets in the way of forming positive relationships can have an addictive nature to it.

Just thinking that shouldn’t everyone cherish, respect, and hold their partner in high regard based upon mutuality of these tenets.

Oh, and hell yes, the Pope and the Band of Merry Men are a hell of a lot more important than this! Why can't Congress intervene with legislation in which all churches cannot be exempt from prosecution in these cases? The Catholic church is not the only perp here, either. The way in which religious organizations are protected/legally insulated from criminal (and civil) litigation in the US is an outrage.

[Kobi]

And on and on it goes lol.

Here I was the one who brought up using words carefully and I didnt when I spoke of people speaking publicly about how happy they are as a red flag for me. It is hard to explain in words, it is a feeling, it is something being said out of character, it is something you get a feel for. Saying you are happy with someone per se is not a red flag.

Rufus, I dont know if people are hard wired for monogamy or if it is cultural, economic, religious, or whatever. I know I am hard wired for monogamy.

And for cheaters heading to rehab for sexual addiction.......take away their access to viagra......I find it hard to believe these folks can carry on as they supposedly do without some artifical help.

[Martina]

And for cheaters heading to rehab for sexual addiction.......take away their access to viagra......I find it hard to believe these folks can carry on as they supposedly do without some artifical help.



Sex addiction isn't just about fucking. It is about the high, but the high might come from flirting or an emotional connection. It's not just people having lots of sex with random folks. That's one type. A lot of them are porn addicts. A huge number seem to have torrid affairs online with people they never meet. Some just become infatuated a lot but never act on it. Nevertheless, it's disruptive to their lives.

[Dylan]

A lot of times a butch femme couple is two women, btw or two females,- one is butch and one is femme (not always of course)- so why would straight man/woman "standards" even apply.

Riggggghhhhhhhht

'Cuz butches and femmes nevvvvvvvvvvvvver have heterosexist norms placed on them

I mean, butches are neeevvvvvvvvver equated to men

and femmes are neeeevvvvvvvvvvvver expected to maintain straight ideals of femininity

We should start a thread about it, 'cuz I don't think there's evvvvver been a thread about it


I Must Be Outta My Gourd,
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for the butch-femme primer

[Dylan]

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

[Dylan]

Besides Christie Brinkley (and her extenuating, melodramatic circumstances)

And now, LeAnn Rimes (is that how you spell it?)

What other celebrity women have cheated on their husbands?

And if a queer woman is in a het marriage, and she decides she wants out of the marriage, but her husband doesn't want out of the marriage yet and refuses to sign the papers...is this woman 'allowed' to follow her queerness and sleep with women? Is that considered 'cheating'?



Dylan

[UofMfan]

Besides Christie Brinkley (and her extenuating, melodramatic circumstances)

And now, LeAnn Rimes (is that how you spell it?)

What other celebrity women have cheated on their husbands?

And if a queer woman is in a het marriage, and she decides she wants out of the marriage, but her husband doesn't want out of the marriage yet and refuses to sign the papers...is this woman 'allowed' to follow her queerness and sleep with women? Is that considered 'cheating'?



Dylan


I am surprised that you are under the impression that a woman needs her husband to sign divorce papers to get one. Maybe this still happens in Texas, who knows.

As to other celebrity women, just of the top of my head, Susan Sarandon. But what does this really prove?

[Dylan]

1. Ahhhhhhhh, thanks. I don't watch The Larry.

2. UGH with the stereotyping. Yeah, I agree...speaking in terms of stereotypes would totally diminish the actual situation.

2a) on a side note, I DO believe in some differences I didn't used to believe in...but I'm still totally agreeing with what you've said here.

3. Oh, I know...I was agreeing with you too. It's so annoying.

4. I agree.

5. Good points...thanks for the perspective


Dylan




1. Oh, Larry King Live. (LKL).. Tuesday night. Actually, it was a lousy group of interviewees. And the experts on sexual addictions were just not articulate at all. Not a very good representation of the fact that it can be an addictive and destructive situation for some people.

2. There was also a whole lotta stereotyping of both men and women going on! Which for me, gets in the way of looking at this in terms of addiction. This, and the latest celebrity sex rehab scenarios without people in the field that know what they are talking about.

3. JeepSakes, I agreed with you about the double standard... and the looks stuff as well. And, we all have different ideas of beauty, anyway. But, only people that are considered, beautiful, deserve to be treated well?? WTF is that?

4. I am right with you concerning personal choices.... I hate it when someone says they are lucky (re: about their relationship & partner). It isn't about luck at all, it is about taking care of yourself and choosing well. And having what it takes to be effective as a partner and knowing the art of cooperation. I know I make very conscious decisions about relationships and who I even date. Sure, I recognize that someone is a great choice, but I don't role dice in choosing to find out if someone is right for me (and themselves). And just because I might be smitten, doesn't mean I will turn away from what I know has to there in order to have a healthy relationship with someone. I make choices.

5. I had hoped with the Tiger Woods fiasco, that some good information would get out about sexual addictions, but, don't think it is. People don't want to deal with this. And they especially don't want to in terms of male stereotypes. They are much more able to think in terms of sex addiction with women, really... and stereotypes around sex abuse and histrionic personality variables (more stereotypes, usually).

Anything that gets in the way of forming positive relationships can have an addictive nature to it.

Just thinking that shouldn’t everyone cherish, respect, and hold their partner in high regard based upon mutuality of these tenets.

Oh, and hell yes, the Pope and the Band of Merry Men are a hell of a lot more important than this! Why can't Congress intervene with legislation in which all churches cannot be exempt from prosecution in these cases? The Catholic church is not the only perp here, either. The way in which religious organizations are protected/legally insulated from criminal (and civil) litigation in the US is an outrage.

[Dylan]

I am surprised that you are under the impression that a woman needs her husband to sign divorce papers to get one. Maybe this still happens in Texas, who knows.

As to other celebrity women, just of the top of my head, Susan Sarandon. But what does this really prove?

I'll make my logic more clear to you

I'm not speaking of women who CAN divorce, I'm speaking of women who CANNOT (for whatever reason: paperwork, emotional pressure, kids, etc), or feel they cannot get divorced.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

[Dylan]

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

I included off the top of my head famous cheaters and cheaters who became famous.

As for sleeping around during separation? That is usually between a couple and can be very subjective depending on the lunacy of one or the other. When I divorced, sleeping around like a whore in a Navy port was fine.

So yeah. If you don't have a tv use your google powers.

Just because the Reverend doesn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Gemme]

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

Meg Ryan cheated with Russell Crowe, not Antonio, I think. Either way, she went the way of the manly man.

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

Mary Kay Laterneau was a teacher that had sex and babies with a student. I believe he was...14 when the first baby was born. She was married and had 4 or 5 kids already.

Anne Heche cheated on Ellen with a man....a camera guy?

[UofMfan]

I'll make my logic more clear to you

I'm not speaking of women who CAN divorce, I'm speaking of women who CANNOT (for whatever reason: paperwork, emotional pressure, kids, etc), or feel they cannot get divorced.


Dylan

I am sorry but I don't need you to clear anything up for me, I am quite capable at understanding logic, even yours.

As a woman who has been through a nasty divorce, one that YOU would qualify in the CANNOT dept. I know for a fact you are wrong. Perhaps when you actually go through one we can exchange logic and facts, till then I would really appreciate you not using your misogynist condescending tone on me, thanks.

PS: You also added; "In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers." And that is why there is such a thing as a legal separation, until such papers are finalized.

[Dylan]

I included off the top of my head famous cheaters and cheaters who became famous.

As for sleeping around during separation? That is usually between a couple and can be very subjective depending on the lunacy of one or the other. When I divorced, sleeping around like a whore in a Navy port was fine.

So yeah. If you don't have a tv use your google powers.

Just because the Reverend doesn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Thanks for the info. I certainly didn't say it didn't happen...merely said I didn't know about it. Which really isn't all that surprising considering I don't pay attention to celebrity gossip.

Sooooo, would you have slept around like a whore in a Navy port if you hadn't been able to (for whatever reason) get divorced? And if yes, would that have been acceptable? That was really my point.


Dylan

[apretty]

i thought this thread was about lying cheating sacks of shit, which has shit to do with gender..?

(unless of course it's a MAN who thinks cheating is a means to navigating his manhood--i've absolutely seen that behavior/justification.)

[Rope]

Yes, sex addicts need help. Are Tiger Woods or Sandra Bullocks' husband sex addicts? I doubt it. So why do they hold this up as their recovery plan? Because we like our celebrity spokespeople to be squeeky clean and this is all they need to do, come clean seek professional help and *poof they're cured and better in our eyes, right? Rather than call a spade a spade, you cheated, you got caught, that wasn't your original agreement--they turn it into a "medical" problem and that absolves them. The "they" is publicists.

Cheating is cheating--if you suddenly want to run around on your spouse, significant other, girlfriend, boyfriend best be up front and have that talk WAY before another pops into the picture.

As others have said polyamory and open relationships are not about cheating or taking advantage of another person. It takes hard work to have these kind of relationships.

The "one and only" concept works for many and monogomany as polyamory are valid expressions of ones preference for relationships. The holier than thou attitude--I could not stand someone else touching the one I love, or I give them my all and could not share them--interesting commentar y but certainly a little laced with unconscious condescension.

Is monogamy an idea that is fading? I think yes and no, I think lots of people leave relationships immediately after finding a passing fling and they are sorry but the damage is done. Trust is broken and it's incredibly hard to get that back and forgive and forget. I see lots of people think that the goal is monogamy rather than the goal is a healty relationship. I don't think polyamory is for everyone--it takes a lot of work. But think about what you truly want--is dating where you should really be rather than focusing on one person. Dating is for trying on people, trying on relationships--so insisting that the person you're dating should be mongamous with you--that's called a relationship not dating.

Is staying in a relationship with one person until you find the next one healthy? That reminds me of high school relationships--don't break up with one until you've hooked the next one. As if being alone a milisecond isn't possibly the healthiest thing you could do for yourself and ultimately the next relationship.

Rope--

[BullDog]

Riggggghhhhhhhht

'Cuz butches and femmes nevvvvvvvvvvvvver have heterosexist norms placed on them

I mean, butches are neeevvvvvvvvver equated to men

and femmes are neeeevvvvvvvvvvvver expected to maintain straight ideals of femininity

We should start a thread about it, 'cuz I don't think there's evvvvver been a thread about it


I Must Be Outta My Gourd,
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for the butch-femme primer

Yes butches are equated to men all the time. I don't see men or butches being held to higher standards. I see the exact opposite when it comes to men. Women are held to much higher standards and there is lots of violence against women when they have cheated or perceived to have cheated, something that can happen to men but doesn't nearly as often. Boys will be boys may be a stereotype but it is also a major way of excusing behavior.

As to butch femme communities, I think if a butch, FTM, person of masculine persuasion is cheated on they get the same sympathy and sense of outrage as when it happens to a femme. I do not see butches being held to higher standards when it comes to cheating, relationships, etc. There are of course instances of friends taking sides, etc which happens in any community.

As to celebrities, I don't much care. I didn't think you did either, but you keep bringing them up.

Oh and as to my little "tutorial" yeah most butches and femmes are women. When you keep talking about how bad men have it and keep ignoring what women have to say here and in other discussions it's pretty offensive to some of us.

Cheating is cheating no matter which gender does it.

[BullDog]

I am very monogamous and definitely feel I am wired that way. I do think though there are probably some unrealistic expectations that go along with it for many people. However, I don't see how people who cheat or have a problem with honesty or communication would be successful at poly relationships either. You have to be honest and communicate well to have successful poly relationships as much or more than with a successful monogamous one because there are more individuals or potentially more individuals involved.

[Martina]

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

My reading was that you said there was a double standard for women. i also was talking about the U.S. -- now as well as the past.

What you said was offensive in the extreme. Women DIE in the U.S. every year after they have been accused of infidelity. It's not OK to just not include this fact in the conversation. Why is that so often the case -- that dead and beaten women go uncounted? Why is it not appalling when we do that? Or why, when we notice that we have done it, do we not take a long pause and think about it? It's not what i expect to encounter here. The fact is that misogyny in our community is a huge problem, and this illustrates it.

You KNOW the history of women, but you choose to dole out stereotypes of what people say about men vs what we say about women on an issue that has a bloody past and present for women? You KNOW, but you just don't want to mention that side of it? Please, spare me the stereotypes. i couldn't care less about your anecdotal observations about people's reactions to celebrities. i do take note that you can't be bothered to acknowledge the brutal facts of life as a woman in this culture.

Once again, Dylan, your misogyny is showing. Feel what you feel. But this isn't the place to bring it. It's hostile as hell to bring it here.

[Dylan]

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Thanks for the info. I certainly didn't say it didn't happen...merely said I didn't know about it. Which really isn't all that surprising considering I don't pay attention to celebrity gossip.

Sooooo, would you have slept around like a whore in a Navy port if you hadn't been able to (for whatever reason) get divorced? And if yes, would that have been acceptable? That was really my point.


Dylan

I didn't even do it when it WAS acceptable. I have to say that it really depends on how an individual is wired. Who are the acceptable police? I mean, who deems what is acceptable in a relationship between two people other than those two people? My vagina's business ends at the tip of everyone elses nose.

When women cheat (or even just date more than one person) they are deemed whore, slut, man eater, cheap, loose and so forth. Men normally get a wink and a pat on the back. Stud muffins. (Unless they are high profile and claiming family values, or just being two faced douche bags)

So your point of acceptability is moot, IMO. Cheating, lying, and hiding things from ones partner? Not nice. No matter who you are.

[AtLast]

There is a very big difference across cultures concerning infidelity and women (or pre-marital, usually arranged, sex). And I do agree with how women get labeled as whore, slut, etc. if they cheat or have sex with more than one partner. That is a double standard, as well.

The whole idea that men will cheat and that is what to expect makes me very angry. It fits right into the ignorance around sexual addiction and how it can destroy lives. And cheating isn't the only variable in which it can become a problem.

There are young men that use street viagra that have no problems getting it up or sustaining an erection..... this is a serious problem as this drugs have serious side effects and are not made to be used like this.

Why the hell I am even trying to have a serious discussion about this, I have no idea. However, women have sexual addictions as well and forfuckingsake.... that does have relevance here!! So does fidelity.

[SuperFemme]

There is a very big difference across cultures concerning infidelity and women (or pre-marital, usually arranged, sex). And I do agree with how women get labeled as whore, slut, etc. if they cheat or have sex with more than one partner. That is a double standard, as well.

The whole idea that men will cheat and that is what to expect makes me very angry. It fits right into the ignorance around sexual addiction and how it can destroy lives. And cheating isn't the only variable in which it can become a problem.

There are young men that use street viagra that have no problems getting it up or sustaining an erection..... this is a serious problem as this drugs have serious side effects and are not made to be used like this.

Why the hell I am even trying to have a serious discussion about this, I have no idea. However, women have sexual addictions as well and forfuckingsake.... that does have relevance here!! So does fidelity.

Insurance companies pay for Viagra and most pharmacies carry it.
The same cannot be said for birth control, the morning after pill, etc.
I've yet to hear of a flacid penis be a pre-existing condition, or beating ones wife be a pre-existing condition.
I HAVE heard of childbirth and being a victim of DV justified as reason to deny health coverage.

I guess my point is that double standards run rampant, but not usually in the favor of women.

Dylan using married queers who are divorcing is almost comical considering the incredibly small percentage of queers who are allowed to get married and how very new it is.

[AtLast]

Insurance companies pay for Viagra and most pharmacies carry it.
The same cannot be said for birth control, the morning after pill, etc.
I've yet to hear of a flacid penis be a pre-existing condition, or beating ones wife be a pre-existing condition.
I HAVE heard of childbirth and being a victim of DV justified as reason to deny health coverage.

I guess my point is that double standards run rampant, but not usually in the favor of women.

Dylan using married queers who are divorcing is almost comical considering the incredibly small percentage of queers who are allowed to get married and how very new it is.

I absolutely see your point about women, here. I was speaking about street Viagra and sexual addictions. And a lot could be discussed about street T here, as well. It isn't used solely by TG individuals to appear more masculine!! Health-care issues surrounding women do demonstrate some very negative and actually, abusive (abuse as in not covering female related conditions) treatment of women.

Your point about divorcing queers is well taken. Have to go back and read these posts.

I have a problem with stereotyping and double standards in general because no one group is all anything. Do I think that women have been more oppressed and discriminated against overall... you bet I do! male privilege (especially, white-male privilege) still dominates our culture.

[Gemme]

This isn't to add to the conversation and probably doesn't have any meaning to anyone at all and that's just peachy. I have an issue with what I wrote myself and cannot edit it, or course, being that I wrote it yesterday. :blink:

Meg Ryan, cutie patootie that she was (before the botched plastic surgery on her face)...okay, she's still cute but not as cute as before...prefers accents, I think.

I wrote Latin men and then realized that Russell Crowe was not Latin. Doh. I edited to say manly men because that's the only thing I could think of to change it to but that hasn't sat right with me. So, I think...like me...she has a thing for guys with an accent.

[Ldyluck88]

Interesting posts. I'm new here so I think I will learn as I go, I think, haha

[Dylan]

Dylan using married queers who are divorcing is almost comical considering the incredibly small percentage of queers who are allowed to get married and how very new it is.

I swear, do y'all just read my posts, and then insert whatever wild thought comes to your head? Do you read my posts at all, or do you just see that I've posted, make up some ridiculousness, and then attribute it to me?

Please show me where I used queer marriages as an example of anything.

I'm beginning to think you misconstrue my words on purpose


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan


Oh, I don't know. Where on EARTH did I come up with that?
Because you just feed me the material Rev., I don't have to make a THING up.

[SuperFemme]

p.s. Dylan you are right about sleeping with others while legally separated. Texas and six other states don't even ALLOW legal separation. Who knew? See, I learned something. It has to be whittled down to state law really on a *legal* basis. On a *moral* basis? That is between the couple I guess but technically it IS adultery. So thanks, because I had no idea.

[AtLast]

Legal vs. moral, very different concepts. And I'm thinking about personal moral vs. public moral.... dictates, conditioning, power dynamics and money..... on and on.....

There is no way I can put every single person that is unfaithful into one specific category. Nor can I personally define what is morally right for anyone else but myself. Hummm.. actually, the term moral doesn't sit well with me anyway. And I prefer legal sanctions about marriage (straight or queer) to encoumpass no-fault divorce. I have yet to see a divorce in which fault cannot be found with both partners in some way. Sure, there are things like cheating (if partners have an agreement to be sexually mongamous) and/or abusive trump most fault variables, but I am happy that many states have moved beyond fault which has been really based upon moral issues for dissolution of marriage. There are many other variables such as children to deal with. Many of us do own property together and have set-up retirement plans together.

Along with the right to marry legally, comes all the responsibilities of marriage and divorce.

I am just not OK with someone being sexual with someone else and being with me. However, I am very clear about this at the start and want this honesty returned. Sometimes we just have things that are deal-breakers.

I'm just glad I have developed some clarity about what I can accept and not accept and an understanding that all of us are just different in these matters.

[SuperFemme]

Legal vs. moral, very different concepts. And I'm thinking about personal moral vs. public moral.... dictates, conditioning, power dynamics and money..... on and on.....

There is no way I can put every single person that is unfaithful into one specific category. Nor can I personally define what is morally right for anyone else but myself. Hummm.. actually, the term moral doesn't sit well with me anyway. And I prefer legal sanctions about marriage (straight or queer) to encoumpass no-fault divorce. I have yet to see a divorce in which fault cannot be found with both partners in some way. Sure, there are things like cheating (if partners have an agreement to be sexually mongamous) and/or abusive trump most fault variables, but I am happy that many states have moved beyond fault which has been really based upon moral issues for dissolution of marriage. There are many other variables such as children to deal with. Many of us do own property together and have set-up retirement plans together.

Along with the right to marry legally, comes all the responsibilities of marriage and divorce.

I am just not OK with someone being sexual with someone else and being with me. However, I am very clear about this at the start and want this honesty returned. Sometimes we just have things that are deal-breakers.

I'm just glad I have developed some clarity about what I can accept and not accept and an understanding that all of us are just different in these matters.

to clarify: i used moral as in we each have our own moral compass of what is right and what is wrong.:love1:

[AtLast]

to clarify: i used moral as in we each have our own moral compass of what is right and what is wrong.:love1:

Yeppers, I got this!

:2butch:

[Soft*Silver]

one of my main credos is I dont accept the unacceptable. When people start to court me, I go through a series of questions that I ask them at different points along the way, and offer my own answers to them. Its a fun little game, but a serious one as well. I even tease (but am serious) about a contract before living together, compiled of things we have discussed and agreed upon. If someone absolutely has to have the sink cleaned out of dishes at all times...they need to let me know that because I am a stacker...I let the dishes stack up until there is enough of them to warrant standing there to do them. You would think this would not be a serious issue, but with two past partners, it was. So I have included this kind of "research" in my "questionarre"
so if I am going to ask about sinks and dirty dishes, you know I am going to ask about morals and values. Let someone say the "n" word and its a deal breaker. Seriously. Let someone tell me its ok to emotionally cheat on a partner,that they believe its not the same thing as physical cheating, they also lose.

I am CLEAR about my unacceptables, deal breakers. Life is way to short to think I can spend even a day with someone who does things that have the same affect on my soul as nails on chalkboards have on my spine....

[I'mOneToo]

It's not just disruptive to the sufferer, but everyone who knows them. It pervades every pore of the relationship until it kills it eventually. Maybe not in every case, but in my case, yeah. Some people suffer from the whole triple threat you mentioned, it's sad to feel so un-cared for by the other, that they would not want to get help. But they have to want it for themselves, another person will never be important enough. Like with my own addictions, I had to want to be clean and sober for myself, not for someone else. But I've also learned, for ME, sex addiction is a huge consideration in partnering -- learned like everything else, the hard way. I want no drugs, no alcohol, no smoking, and no sex addictions in my life. I want my partner to be able to be as fully in the present as possible. I offer that, and I want it in return. No more compromising my values. There are enough challenges in life without having to face daily addictions as part of the burden. Progress, not perfection -- and for me, progress starts with being free from active addictions, and my partner also. This is a separate issue (but related) from that of honesty and communication which are integral; for me it is impossible to achieve that with addictions in the way.


Sex addiction isn't just about fucking. It is about the high, but the high might come from flirting or an emotional connection. It's not just people having lots of sex with random folks. That's one type. A lot of them are porn addicts. A huge number seem to have torrid affairs online with people they never meet. Some just become infatuated a lot but never act on it. Nevertheless, it's disruptive to their lives.

[SuperFemme]

It's not just disruptive to the sufferer, but everyone who knows them. It pervades every pore of the relationship until it kills it eventually. Maybe not in every case, but in my case, yeah. Some people suffer from the whole triple threat you mentioned, it's sad to feel so un-cared for by the other, that they would not want to get help. But they have to want it for themselves, another person will never be important enough. Like with my own addictions, I had to want to be clean and sober for myself, not for someone else. But I've also learned, for ME, sex addiction is a huge consideration in partnering -- learned like everything else, the hard way. I want no drugs, no alcohol, no smoking, and no sex addictions in my life. I want my partner to be able to be as fully in the present as possible. I offer that, and I want it in return. No more compromising my values. There are enough challenges in life without having to face daily addictions as part of the burden. Progress, not perfection -- and for me, progress starts with being free from active addictions, and my partner also. This is a separate issue (but related) from that of honesty and communication which are integral; for me it is impossible to achieve that with addictions in the way.

AMEN. I wonder if these few celebrity cases are doing a disservice to those who really do suffer as sex addicts. IMO it has made the public at large make a big joke about it. Which is sad.

Progress, not perfection baby!

[I'mOneToo]

In a way they do shine a light on a pervasive problem. On the down side, it tends to cause people to make light of a serious situation. Not everyone who suffers can get an all-expenses-paid trip to "Promises" or whatever the hell celeb rehab is popular these days. Maybe instead of highlighting those on pedestals, they could offer real solutions for the average person who may need it. It's a very complicated issue that can't be treated with a golf club.

AMEN. I wonder if these few celebrity cases are doing a disservice to those who really do suffer as sex addicts. IMO it has made the public at large make a big joke about it. Which is sad.

Progress, not perfection baby!

[AtLast]

Sex addiction isn't just about fucking. It is about the high, but the high might come from flirting or an emotional connection. It's not just people having lots of sex with random folks. That's one type. A lot of them are porn addicts. A huge number seem to have torrid affairs online with people they never meet. Some just become infatuated a lot but never act on it. Nevertheless, it's disruptive to their lives.

So glad you bring these points up. What is disrupted and how can really differ from couple to couple, as well. The thread got all involved with the celebrity phenomenon, but, what about just us? And I bet we all have an array of personal variables around relationships/marriages. When something causes our life to spin out of control, like multi-affairs or developing an online relationship that gets us in trouible - thinking about the Michigan man that ended up killing someone via an online romance in which the woman was actually the mother using her daughters identity, it can be addictive in nature. His marriage went down the tubes during his torrid love affair with someone who was actually not who he thought. And the guy he killed (the perceived threat) had never actually met the woman, either! he spent most of his time at home on the pc and he had a family!

[SuperFemme]

Many sex addicts are not in relationships. With a real person that is.

[Nina]

Many sex addicts are not in relationships. With a real person that is.

and, many sex addicts don't feel *themselves* as 'real' people...the whole thing, imo, is that it's all sad, sad, sad and brings that same upon everyone involved...

maudlin this evening, I guess...

[sweetcali]

So.....

I have been reading and following this thread just cuz well it interested me. Often times with threads like this my thinking and questions kind of go off in a direction that really is part of the topic but umm sometimes it doesn't look like it. So with my disclaimer here are my questions:

1) What if societies rules on how someone is to engage in sex were changed/different?

2) What if the societal rules and religious based rules on relationships and sexual conduct and activity were changed?

3) Aren't some of the ideas, rules, practices discussed in this thread really american societal rules of sexual conduct?

4) If the american societal rules of engagement within a relationship with regard to sex, sexuality and sexual conduct were different what would they look like?

sweetcali

[Kätzchen]

:deepthoughts: With the Tiger Woods and Sandra Bullock ( who in their right mind would cheat on Sandra Bullock????) issues of late. I am wondering what people think of fidelity in relationships these days. Is it an outdated concept?
How do you think you would react if you found out your partner was cheating?

Personally, I still think monogamy is my relationship mode of choice because I like things simple and predictable. And I suspect if I found out my partner was cheating on me, I would be throwing their belongings out a second story window - its the Italian in me.

First: I want to say that I miss you in our community and thanks for this thread topic of discussion.

Second: Fidelity is of paramount importance, especially for those of us who desire and prefer monogamous relationship ties. I *HATE* behavioral choices that cause people to cheat. I also view it as a huge red flag when my partner's friends know my partner has cheated on me and then they accidentally blurt it out in front of both my partner and I -- as it happened on January 1st, just earlier this week.

Needless to say, i am heartbroken over my partner's decision to do what they did, and although we have yet to dissolve our relational tie, I do hope we can salvage something of the last few years we've been together. Not sure what will happen, but I do know that I will not be moving forward until both of us decide what we want to do next.

<<<<<<~~~~ my heart is heavy from our/my relationship trauma. I won't be available anytime soon. :(

[Chancie]

It’s cool and maybe sad to see so many familiar names on this thread.

I’ve never cheated on anyone, nor knowingly been with someone who was cheating, but I have been cheated on. A few months before I joined the old site, maybe 20 years ago, my partner of ten years told me that she was having an affair.

It was emotionally immature of her, at the least, but as time past, I was relieved, and of course Pete and I have been together for 14 years, and married for eight years.

Still, it was a cowardly choice, and I’m very sorry for others whose partners have made the same cowardly choice.

[Blade]

Fidelity and monogamy are at the top of my tick list. I've never cheated on anyone. I have been cheated on and it is crushing. I put all of my trust into a relationship once that trust is earned. When it is breached, I'm done. No fixing it no apology wanted or needed no excuses. Just leave me alone.

This happens in online and LDR's just as it dies in real life. Not nearly as crushing but still hurtful. I guess perhaps dew to the nature of the situation mostly being virtual.

Either way I back off and need alone time to clear my head and thoughts. Sort of back up and punt. Regroup. I always learn something about myself, so when it has happened, all is not lost, only a setback.

[Orema]

I have cheated and have been cheated on. It’s not good being on either side and there’s no justification for it.

I regret it but I know that the regret only benefits me.

[GeorgiaMa'am]

I have not cheated but I have been cheated on. Thankfully, not since I became polyamorous. It's already a complicated enough relationship, I don't know how really awful it might become if someone cheated.

And yes, it is possible to cheat in a poly relationship. We have rules, just some are different from monogamy.

[kittygrrl]

I've learned not to have unrealistic expectations when it comes to a lover...don't expect her to be able to be your best friend, and everything else...fight fair & c.o.m.m.u.n.i.c.a.t.e..., negotiate....have fun & do something new to the both of you occasionally...accept that not everyone is monogamous...make peace with it, if this person is perfect in the things that matter most to you...this is my philosophy..no judgement if you disagree!

[Bèsame*]

cheating.

I've never cheated. That's like lying. I could not bring myself to hurt someone care I for.

I've been cheated on twice. I entered those relationships knowing they both had cheated before. I guess that old saying, once a cheater always a cheater, is pretty true.

What hurts me the most, is there had to be a moment that thought of breaking the commitment of the relationship came up. Maybe it weighed on their mind? Maybe they didn't think twice? But at that very moment, did you not think how I would feel?

That's the part I never could understand. Narcissistic relationships..

[nina03]

I've been cheated on by two different partners. The first time, in my early twenties, we were monogamous. My wife at the time had an entire other life with a girlfriend who had kids that my wife was part time co-parenting. I didn't know about it until a year after I left her. I was not surprised when I found out, though. It generally fit with her overall horrible personality.

The second time I was cheated on was in my current relationship, 6.5 years ago. At the time, we were poly. Cheating in a poly relationship has many of the same elements as cheating in a monogamous one including dishonesty, breaking relationship agreements, hiding the other relationship, or hiding the extent of it, among other things. (That is to say that the poly relationship wasn't the problem or the part that was "cheating", my partner's dishonesty and disrespect for our agreements was.) When I finally found out all of what had been going on, I was devastated and wanted to break up with my partner. He asked me to stay, and to try to work it out, then broke up with the affair partner that day.

Over the course of the next several years, he went to individual therapy and did intensive work on why he did it, and how to live with integrity moving forward. We went to couple's counseling which we are still doing, and we also attended an affair recovery class for four months. I also went to individual therapy to work through my hurt and anger. It took a long time and a lot of work, but we are healed now. Our communication is better than it has ever been. We are so close and connected, and healthy as individuals and as a couple. I didn't know a marriage could be this way.

We aren't poly anymore, because we wanted to focus intensively on healing our relationship before even thinking about opening it up or giving any energy to other people. At this point, I don't know if we'll go there again, but if we do we have much better communication skills this time, so I think it would be ok.

All of this is to say that infidelity is so hard, and there's no right answer to how to handle it. I would say, though, that if the person who cheated isn't willing to go ALL IN to make amends and do the work to heal themselves and the relationship, it's not emotionally safe to stay with that person. That means taking full responsibility for the harm they caused, and working to help heal the damage and restore trust, which includes not downplaying the harm caused by their actions. It also means not blaming the person they cheated on for their own bad decisions.

I personally am glad that I stayed, and really glad that my spouse was willing to work hard to align with his own integrity. We're living the rewards of the work we did both as individuals and as a couple, but I know that we're the exception to the rule when it comes to this kind of thing.