What makes me butch?

[Darth Denkay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it seems as though we have this conversation ad nauseum, and I guess we do. In any case, here's what I have been wondering...

On the one hand, we describe our identity - butch - as masculine (regardless of how we identify beyond that, i.e. female, lesbian). So being butch encompasses things that are seen as "masculine". But then we are adamant that we are not masculine stereotypes. It really feels as though sometimes we want to be masculine in the good ways, but not in the bad ways or in the ways that just don't match us. So how do we describe our identity? What is it based on? Concepts of masculinity but NOT stereotypes? Aren't concepts of masculinity stereotypes themselves?

Thoughts?

[Corkey]

Well, I'm not a lesbian, and don't consider myself a female, so am I still Butch? For me yes. I have a female body, but who I am isn't defined by what I look like.
Stereotypes are everywhere. I don't think any label is going to fit every body. The more we as a community try to define, the more we divide.
My .02

[Jett]

I'm me and that's that... stereotypes are stereotypes and I try not to pay much attention to them... masculine or butch.

With that I think there's a big difference between "want to be" and what we just are... what we are is always just that, what we call it may be more in line with just what we see it as.

I call myself a butch because butch I think of as queered masculinity and I believe that's altogether a different thing than stereotypical masculinity. I feel it inside me as an energy that wants to come outward and not as something I'm taking into me from outside cues.

I don't emulate "the masculine stereotype" because butch to me doesn't mean being as "historical/traditionally masculine" as you possibly can, yes I open doors and pull out chairs but you would't catch me dead with a hairy lip or letting my brows go to caterpillar status even know perhaps some would see that as more masculine... but I don't give a crap what anyone thinks... because I'm not a stereotype.

IMO butch masculinity comes more in the heart than the head... it's not something you aspire to or look to anything or anyone else for, it just is what it is the way it is.

Metro

[AtLast]

What defines me as butch really has nothing to do with gender roles or gender in and of itself, concepts of female or male (masculine or feminine). Its about values, attitudes, historical perspectives, and a personal spiritual sense. Feminism, being female and lesbian just fit for me. Just don't for others. Also, my feelings about the range of bujtch identity includes admiration for those that are able to cut through patriarchal concepts and simply be without trying to oppress what butch means to others.

Thinking that my arriving at a peaceful space with butch does have a lot to do with being able to read and sift through all of the discussions that websites like this offer. Sure, there is disagreement among us, but where would we be if we didn’t look at what we all feel define us as butch?

What I have learned by many of you, is that I had to stretch my thinking, do research, and just listen to ideas. I just can’t throw out some arbitrary definition of butch (or femme, for that matter) or put anyone into any particular box. Sometimes this is difficult when I have had some swipes taken at my own brand of butch. I have certainly had defense-mode moments. However, these have become less and less as I just try to understand how really fluid butch (and femme) identity is. No way is butch a one definition fits all concept! And I don't need it to be.

Overall, I have just become more focused on how we can combat the stereotyping of our entire queer community as the outside world views it. Queer for me includes every single identity among us. And there is so much to accomplish out there with things life ENDA, same-sex marriage, homophobia , transphobia, along with all the usual anti-lesbian, gay, bi, BDSM, (what am I forgetting?) bigotry out there.

I don’t care about how someone identifies themselves. I do care that we (me included) have gone at each other in ways that do divide us and just don’t help with the real struggles that we need to deal with like incidences of violence (on-going hate crimes) against our people within the umbrella community of queers.

For me, the best thing to happen within this community has been to be taken to task at times. Hell, I now have connected in genuine ways with folks that I did so much battle with! Why? Because I finally went to the real source of conflict - myself. Sure, I’m going to take issue with posts at times, but not without trying to simply understand the things that are the most difficult for me to.

Be the butch you want to be…………. The :training: has not served us well.

[Rockinonahigh]

Well Id make a mighty ugly femme no doubt about it.Im who I am by looks and actions,I dont have to prove a thing to anyone at any time,I shure dont need a label put on me by anyone..if its not your cup of tea dont pick it up.

[Darth Denkay]

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

[UofMfan]

I'm me and that's that... stereotypes are stereotypes and I try not to pay much attention to them... masculine or butch.

With that I think there's a big difference between "want to be" and what we just are... what we are is always just that, what we call it may be more in line with just what we see it as.

I call myself a butch because butch I think of as queered masculinity and I believe that's altogether a different thing than stereotypical masculinity. I feel it inside me as an energy that wants to come outward and not as something I'm taking into me from outside cues.

I don't emulate "the masculine stereotype" because butch to me doesn't mean being as "historical/traditionally masculine" as you possibly can, yes I open doors and pull out chairs but you would't catch me dead with a hairy lip or letting my brows go to caterpillar status even know perhaps some would see that as more masculine... but I don't give a crap what anyone thinks... because I'm not a stereotype.

IMO butch masculinity comes more in the heart than the head... it's not something you aspire to or look to anything or anyone else for, it just is what it is the way it is.

Metro

As usual, your words are right on the money, at least in describing how I feel, am.

So to answer the question, what makes me butch? I would have to say that every cell in my body makes me so, in as far as to what Butch means to me.

[Corkey]

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?


What makes a human, human.

[AtLast]

I'm me and that's that... stereotypes are stereotypes and I try not to pay much attention to them... masculine or butch.

With that I think there's a big difference between "want to be" and what we just are... what we are is always just that, what we call it may be more in line with just what we see it as.

I call myself a butch because butch I think of as queered masculinity and I believe that's altogether a different thing than stereotypical masculinity. I feel it inside me as an energy that wants to come outward and not as something I'm taking into me from outside cues.

I don't emulate "the masculine stereotype" because butch to me doesn't mean being as "historical/traditionally masculine" as you possibly can, yes I open doors and pull out chairs but you would't catch me dead with a hairy lip or letting my brows go to caterpillar status even know perhaps some would see that as more masculine... but I don't give a crap what anyone thinks... because I'm not a stereotype.

IMO butch masculinity comes more in the heart than the head... it's not something you aspire to or look to anything or anyone else for, it just is what it is the way it is.

Metro



Yup, your thoughts here speak to me. Looks like to others, too. And there will be more ideas put forth. Which is why, even when I have been totally frustrated with issues of butch identity, I know that there are going to be varied ways of how we all present as butch. Yes, from the heart fits.

I can't believe that when I came back online to see what has been discussed, that you, Met, had talked about hair - chin & eyebrows!! Just yesterday, as I was pluckin' and shaving my legs, I was thinking about why I do so and had some stereotypic butch stuff go through my mind. Brought me back to my coming-out as a butch (later than of lot of butches) and things I used to feel about this not being very butch of me. Fuck that shit!

I am so glad I moved past this and just take it for what it is- what I personally prefer. Other butches feel differently. Kind of funny, really as one of the reasons I shave my legs has to do with muscles being more defined. I got so much negative BS as a girl-kid about having muscular legs from outside of my family, shaving them was kind of an act of rebellion for me, not having a thing to do with it being something that pre-teen girls do. I remember a doctor (male) telling me during a pap-test exam when I was in college (and still hetero) that I should stop racing bicycles because my legs were too muscular for a girl!! Yeppers, stereotypes suck! What is also interesting about this is that my Mom always complimented my legs because they were strong, like your Dad's (he was a pro cyclist when they courted and sparked and trained me). I had almost a reversed experience with this than I hear from many other butches that were involved in athletics (and their experiences way suck, too) . So weird. Now, due to back surgeries (atrophy from nerve damage) and not able to be as active as when I was younger, I have lost some of the muscle tone, but still have some damn leg and thigh muscles (sorta)- and I'm gonna let them show! Dammit, hence, the leg hair goes!!! Geeesssuuuussss!

I think honing in on the whole stereotype area is great in a thread. They have slapped us around a lot in different ways. So, looking at them from our own perspective of how we view our unique butch identities is really interesting. Just as is the butch-femme dynamic is in its entirety and evolution! Can’t wait to read more……

[Gemme]

...Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity?

...Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

To me, masculinity and femininity are presentations, or representations, of the same energy, but differently.

I know...clear as mud. :blink:

Identical twins. Same appearance but often VERY different personalities. Butch and femme are like identical twins for me. Same energy, split equally and presented differently.

Stereotypes exist because of the same characteristics being shown, over and over again. Often, they are one and the same. The icky part kicks in when the stereotype becomes a caricature.

[Rockinonahigh]

To shave or NOT..For me not shaveing has come frome two places,one was an act of rebelion that I wasnt a girlie girl and hated shaveing anyway..and two..over the years it became less important to me to do so.I have a somewhat fuzzy upper lip right alone with every other women in my family cause its comes with the genetics of our family,funny thing is that several of my cousins who are the super femme type have it way worse than me.Corse tthey have had them removed one way or the other but im to chicken for electroisis to do that so onece in a while I shave it off if it gets ugly.
I to have been very active in sports and my body type is like a weight lifter so for the most part is still ok just run to some flab cause of a back/neck injury wich I will have fixed as much as possable this year,finaly I got an appointment with orthopedics at LSU hospital to check it out and then find the best way to go with it.I cant wait to feel good again and be able to hit the work outs like i should.

[Kobi]

Bar code on butt. :pointing:

Sorry, am having an irreverent day.

[AtLast]

Bar code on butt. :pointing:

Sorry, am having an irreverent day.

ROLF .... Did it hurt?

[Kobi]

ROLF .... Did it hurt?

Only hurt my pride when on scanning it was found I was marked down to 2.99. Damn Walmart.

[Gemme]

Only hurt my pride when on scanning it was found I was marked down to 2.99. Damn Walmart.

If it was Wal-Mart, you would have been marked down to $2.87 or $2.96. :blink:

[Kobi]

If it was Wal-Mart, you would have been marked down to $2.87 or $2.96. :blink:

:nyahnyah: Have to love a femme who knows her prices. LOL.

[Gemme]

:nyahnyah: Have to love a femme who knows her prices. LOL.

*grin*

:rainsing:

[diamondrose]

She's right. Wal-marts prices are never as even as 2.99 its always 2.94 or 2.96 or 2.97 lol

[PearlsNLace]

I might need to send Paphigleo an email of this, so that he understands why I grab the hand held scanner and aim it at his arse, next time we are at the megalithic corporate deamon buying groceries.

Wal mart takes coupons right?

[Kobi]

some hold packages while others do the shopping. :deepthoughts:

[The_Lady_Snow]

some hold packages while others do the shopping. :deepthoughts:


ACKK I don't hold packages OR do shopping

>I want mah butch card<:army:

[Kobi]

I can not find anywhere else to put this. So maybe it can go here. My ex sent this to me.....I think there was a subtle message in here somewhere but I chose to ignore it.

So, we can title this....you know you are Butch when you understand the following femme-isms:

1) Fine: This is the word femmes use to end an argument when they are right and you need to shut up.



(2) Five Minutes: If she is getting dressed, this means a half an hour. Five minutes is only five minutes if you have just been given five more minutes to watch the women’s basketball game before helping around the house.



(3) Nothing: This is the calm before the storm. This means something, and you should be on your toes. Arguments that begin with nothing usually end in fine.


(4) Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!



(5) Loud Sigh: This is actually a word, but is a non-verbal statement often misunderstood by denying or unobservant butches. A loud sigh means she thinks you are an idiot and wonders why she is wasting her time standing here and arguing with you about “nothing”. (Refer back to # 3 .)



(6) That's Okay: This is one of the most dangerous statement a femme can make to a butch. This means she wants to think long and hard before deciding how and when you will pay for your mistake. Be prepared for her interminable silence!



(7) Thanks: A femme is thanking you, do not question, or faint. Just say you're welcome. (I want to add in a clause here - This is true, unless she says 'Thanks a lot' - that is PURE sarcasm and she is not thanking you at all. DO NOT say 'you're welcome' to that as it will bring on a 'whatever').



(8) Whatever: Is a femme's way of saying F--- YOU!



(9) Don't worry about it, I got it: Another dangerous statement, meaning this is something that a femme has told you to do several times, but is now doing it herself. This will later result in a butch asking 'What's wrong? Did I do something wrong?' For the femme's response refer to # 3.



* Send this to the butches you know, to warn them about arguments they can avoid if they remember the terminology even when the femme agrees to work through disagreements, she usually means #8.



* Send this to the femmes you know to give them a good laugh, cause they know it's true!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I can not find anywhere else to put this. So maybe it can go here. My ex sent this to me.....I think there was a subtle message in here somewhere but I chose to ignore it.

So, we can title this....you know you are Butch when you understand the following femme-isms:

1) Fine: This is the word femmes use to end an argument when they are right and you need to shut up.

:|



(2) Five Minutes: If she is getting dressed, this means a half an hour. Five minutes is only five minutes if you have just been given five more minutes to watch the women’s basketball game before helping around the house.

:|



(3) Nothing: This is the calm before the storm. This means something, and you should be on your toes. Arguments that begin with nothing usually end in fine.


(4) Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!

:|



(5) Loud Sigh: This is actually a word, but is a non-verbal statement often misunderstood by denying or unobservant butches. A loud sigh means she thinks you are an idiot and wonders why she is wasting her time standing here and arguing with you about “nothing”. (Refer back to # 3 .)



(6) That's Okay: This is one of the most dangerous statement a femme can make to a butch. This means she wants to think long and hard before deciding how and when you will pay for your mistake. Be prepared for her interminable silence!

:|



(7) Thanks: A femme is thanking you, do not question, or faint. Just say you're welcome. (I want to add in a clause here - This is true, unless she says 'Thanks a lot' - that is PURE sarcasm and she is not thanking you at all. DO NOT say 'you're welcome' to that as it will bring on a 'whatever').


:|:|


(8) Whatever: Is a femme's way of saying F--- YOU!



(9) Don't worry about it, I got it: Another dangerous statement, meaning this is something that a femme has told you to do several times, but is now doing it herself. This will later result in a butch asking 'What's wrong? Did I do something wrong?' For the femme's response refer to # 3.



* Send this to the butches you know, to warn them about arguments they can avoid if they remember the terminology even when the femme agrees to work through disagreements, she usually means #8.



* Send this to the femmes you know to give them a good laugh, cause they know it's true!!!






Really?

Misogyny much?

[Kobi]

Really?

Misogyny much?

And now the righteous indignation begins......:thud:

Kobi going to watch movie before Kobi creates any more controversy today.

[The_Lady_Snow]

And now the righteous indignation begins......:thud:

Kobi going to watch movie before Kobi creates any more controversy today.


This isn't about righteous anything Kobi, do you really believe that is what makes a butch?

That kind of thinking?

Do you think that was respectful to femmes?

Serious questions here...

[weatherboi]

as a guy i think this is a disgraceful thing to post

this list is most idiotic

i don't think like this :beatcomputer:

I can not find anywhere else to put this. So maybe it can go here. My ex sent this to me.....I think there was a subtle message in here somewhere but I chose to ignore it.

So, we can title this....you know you are Butch when you understand the following femme-isms:

1) Fine: This is the word femmes use to end an argument when they are right and you need to shut up


(2) Five Minutes: If she is getting dressed, this means a half an hour. Five minutes is only five minutes if you have just been given five more minutes to watch the women’s basketball game before helping around the house.


(3) Nothing: This is the calm before the storm. This means something, and you should be on your toes. Arguments that begin with nothing usually end in


(4) Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!


(5) Loud Sigh: This is actually a word, but is a non-verbal statement often misunderstood by denying or unobservant butches. A loud sigh means she thinks you are an idiot and wonders why she is wasting her time standing here and arguing with you about “nothing”. (Refer back to # 3 .)

(6) That's Okay: This is one of the most dangerous statement a femme can make to a butch. This means she wants to think long and hard before deciding how and when you will pay for your mistake. Be prepared for her interminable silence!


(7) Thanks: A femme is thanking you, do not question, or faint. Just say you're welcome. (I want to add in a clause here - This is true, unless she says 'Thanks a lot' - that is PURE sarcasm and she is not thanking you at all. DO NOT say 'you're welcome' to that as it will bring on a 'whatever').


(8) Whatever: Is a femme's way of saying F--- YOU!


(9) Don't worry about it, I got it: Another dangerous statement, meaning this is something that a femme has told you to do several times, but is now doing it herself. This will later result in a butch asking 'What's wrong? Did I do something wrong?' For the femme's response refer to # 3.



* Send this to the butches you know, to warn them about arguments they can avoid if they remember the terminology even when the femme agrees to work through disagreements, she usually means #8.



* Send this to the femmes you know to give them a good laugh, cause they know it's true!!!

[Corkey]

I can not find anywhere else to put this. So maybe it can go here. My ex sent this to me.....I think there was a subtle message in here somewhere but I chose to ignore it.

So, we can title this....you know you are Butch when you understand the following femme-isms:

1) Fine: This is the word femmes use to end an argument when they are right and you need to shut up.



(2) Five Minutes: If she is getting dressed, this means a half an hour. Five minutes is only five minutes if you have just been given five more minutes to watch the women’s basketball game before helping around the house.



(3) Nothing: This is the calm before the storm. This means something, and you should be on your toes. Arguments that begin with nothing usually end in fine.


(4) Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!



(5) Loud Sigh: This is actually a word, but is a non-verbal statement often misunderstood by denying or unobservant butches. A loud sigh means she thinks you are an idiot and wonders why she is wasting her time standing here and arguing with you about “nothing”. (Refer back to # 3 .)



(6) That's Okay: This is one of the most dangerous statement a femme can make to a butch. This means she wants to think long and hard before deciding how and when you will pay for your mistake. Be prepared for her interminable silence!



(7) Thanks: A femme is thanking you, do not question, or faint. Just say you're welcome. (I want to add in a clause here - This is true, unless she says 'Thanks a lot' - that is PURE sarcasm and she is not thanking you at all. DO NOT say 'you're welcome' to that as it will bring on a 'whatever').



(8) Whatever: Is a femme's way of saying F--- YOU!



(9) Don't worry about it, I got it: Another dangerous statement, meaning this is something that a femme has told you to do several times, but is now doing it herself. This will later result in a butch asking 'What's wrong? Did I do something wrong?' For the femme's response refer to # 3.



* Send this to the butches you know, to warn them about arguments they can avoid if they remember the terminology even when the femme agrees to work through disagreements, she usually means #8.



* Send this to the femmes you know to give them a good laugh, cause they know it's true!!!





If this was supposed to be funny, it isn't, if it was your attempt at a joke, it failed. It is misogynistic and stereotypical. It has made it's way thru several sites, and each site has come to the same conclusion, it sucks.

[Kobi]

I apologize if I offended anyone. I thought it was cute.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I apologize if I offended anyone. I thought it was cute.


Thanks

just know that it's as cute as when someone says to a butch

you wanna be man..

cause we all know butch does not equate man, or wanting to be one.

yes?

[Down2marsboi]

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

Yes, I AGREE that ones BUTCH SELF is not only EMcompassed by CHARACTERISTICS but most IMPORTANTLY by ones OWN sense of butchness...your INTERNAL ESSENCE meter so to SPEAK. I FEEL that characteristics BECOME STEROTYPES when people start to BELIEVE that you are a way SIMPLY become you possess a characteric that COMMONLY is associated with a way of BEING. Butchness to me is INTERNAL...Masculinity, Crewcuts, Male SWAGGER, jeans, aggression, etc...are some characterisics usually associated with Butchness from ole school means...this is what the WORLD saw as being a DIfferent essence, back in the day and has STUCK...as people who SELF PROCLAIM as being butch...and all the different energies and appearance become more PREVALENT...then to SHALL the steroyypes I think BEGAN to FALL.

[Beau]

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two?

I am sick to death of gender identity discussions, but your question is salient and worth considering.

My answer:
Stereotypes begin at the moment a person's perceptions, narrow-mindedness, or ignorance is used to define others without the inclusion of the possibilities, beliefs, or experiences that supersede such definitions.

[Queerasfck]

I think it's my deodorant.

[AtLast]

Take a look at these definitions of the term butch....

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/butch

Interesting in terms of the discussion, especially stereotyping... There has to be other definitions from a queer perspective somewhere.... ????

:alieninjar:

[KayCee]

I apologize if I offended anyone. I thought it was cute.


Being a 'femme' I didn't find it whether disrespectful nor disgraceful. I thought it was quite funny. Thanks Kobi, Kam and I had some good laughs!

[Cowboi]

I think.....therefore I am.....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Being a 'femme' I didn't find it whether disrespectful nor disgraceful. I thought it was quite funny. Thanks Kobi, Kam and I had some good laughs!


I believe I am femme as well, and *I* personally do not find it funny or cutesey to be put in that kind of light nor do I fit that particular stereotype of femme.

I tend to get upset when it comes to my gender and how someone assumes it is portrayed...

[Hack]

Something about this thread disturbs me. It's not the intent of the thread, so no disrespect toward Darth, who started this thread.

I think it's just that I find identity - yours, mine and whoever's - to be a very personal thing. How I got to where I am today was a journey, sometimes a battle, and most definitely an evolution. I am sure that is true for nearly everyone, no matter who you are.

I have a sign in my office that says, "I look forward to the day when I no longer have to explain anything." It pertains to my job, really, but I also feel that way about my identity both in and outside of this community.

For me, it's always more interesting to listen to people tell their stories about how they came to be the person they are -- the experiences that shaped them, or the upbringing they had.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

[apretty]

I think it's my deodorant.

old spice swagger? :jollyroger:

[Mister Bent]

I only came in here to see what makes apretty butch.

[AtLast]

Something about this thread disturbs me. It's not the intent of the thread, so no disrespect toward Darth, who started this thread.

I think it's just that I find identity - yours, mine and whoever's - to be a very personal thing. How I got to where I am today was a journey, sometimes a battle, and most definitely an evolution. I am sure that is true for nearly everyone, no matter who you are.

I have a sign in my office that says, "I look forward to the day when I no longer have to explain anything." It pertains to my job, really, but I also feel that way about my identity both in and outside of this community.

For me, it's always more interesting to listen to people tell their stories about how they came to be the person they are -- the experiences that shaped them, or the upbringing they had.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

Wouldn't it be great to be there! Just the whole notion of your own personal being... just being without any questions, from anyone. No explanations needed because there isn't a thing that is odd or different needing explanation because we have finally gone beyond stereotypes completely and traditional gender identification. Everyone is represented other than in documentaries that are mainly viewed by this community. No traditional characterizations and expectations begining at birth...

Thinking of John Lennon's Imagine...

[AtLast]

old spice swagger? :jollyroger:

ROTFL.... gotta get some of that. I'd probably sneeze just like I do with most scents.. Damn, I never have any fun! PHOOEY!!!

[apretty]

I only came in here to see what makes apretty butch.

what makes a 'pretty butch'?

lots and lots of lip gloss.

[JustBeingMe]

Never heard a butch called Pretty before. GEEZ am I outta the loop already at my age?

[AtLast]

Never heard a butch called Pretty before. GEEZ am I outta the loop already at my age?

Nah.... not out of the loop.. We all are a bit loopy...

:simplelaugh:

[Jett]

Never heard a butch called Pretty before. GEEZ am I outta the loop already at my age?

Really? I've had a gay guy send me a drink with the pick-up line relayed by the waitress... "You're either the prettiest guy in the room or the handsomest woman".

Didn't bother me, nice compliment...

[chrisbutch]

Trying everyday to be the best person i can be, and trying to be the type of butch that i want to be......trying to be me, to be true to myself...

[AtLast]

Really? I've had a gay guy send me a drink with the pick-up line relayed by the waitress... "You're either the prettiest guy in the room or the handsomest woman".

Didn't bother me, nice compliment...

Glad to see other butches have this happen. LOL... Frankly, many a' gay men have made my day!!! Plus they really take note of what you are wearing and have some good fashion tips! I rather enjoy some of the times when my gender can't be read. Like the mix of it all. Of course, there are times when this is a pain as in the women's bathroom fiascos that come up. Then, again, I just stare back and go to my stall!Just not going to dwell on stupid bathroom drama.. ARGH!!

[Andrew, Jr.]

I think how anyone id's is personal. It isn't something that can be discussed openly on the internet. It is something sacred and personal. Everyone has to go on their own journey in finding out who they are.

One of my nephew's when he was exploring his sexuality and gender, he was in elementary school. He asked me to buy him a tea set for his birthday. So I did. Today he is married, and he has a picture of his tea set with me in it with him. He treasures that photograph. He told his wife that it was me who helped him get thru his journey.

I agree with Hack about this thread. It is very upsetting. It isn't about being true to who you are, or how I am, but how to cut each other down. We already get put down by society, why should we do it to each other here?

[Gemme]

Never heard a butch called Pretty before. GEEZ am I outta the loop already at my age?

I have heard it and done it. I call 'em as I see 'em and if someone is handsome, I say so. If they are beautiful, I say so. If they are pretty...so on and so forth. :)


I think how anyone id's is personal. It isn't something that can be discussed openly on the internet. It is something sacred and personal. Everyone has to go on their own journey in finding out who they are.

One of my nephew's when he was exploring his sexuality and gender, he was in elementary school. He asked me to buy him a tea set for his birthday. So I did. Today he is married, and he has a picture of his tea set with me in it with him. He treasures that photograph. He told his wife that it was me who helped him get thru his journey.

I agree with Hack about this thread. It is very upsetting. It isn't about being true to who you are, or how I am, but how to cut each other down. We already get put down by society, why should we do it to each other here?


I must not be reading the same thing you are, Andrew. I don't see anyone cutting anyone down. This thread has the potential to blow up, but I think the responses have been quite respectful, actually.

[Bit]

I was curious, so I went back and re-read Kayden's opening post. When he says:
. So how do we describe our identity? What is it based on? Concepts of masculinity but NOT stereotypes? Aren't concepts of masculinity stereotypes themselves?

I interpret that to mean he is looking not for a discussion about any one individual's personal identity, but a discussion about the ideas of "butch" and "masculine" and how they get expressed in our community without triggering common stereotypes. I read his question as asking if that's possible, or if the ideas of masculinity are already stereotypes; and it seems to me that he is asking not about any one individual's personal identity, but about general categories of identity--masculine, in particular.

I get it that sometimes people feel like they're being put on the spot in gender and identity discussions, and I understand that it gets old feeling like a person has to "defend" themselves... but I think that feeling usually happens because of misunderstandings. We don't all read other people's posts in the same way; sometimes something that seems crystal clear to someone is not actually what the poster meant.

Sometimes we struggle pretty hard to find the words to say what we mean--and I know I fail pretty often at that! It's especially hard when it's ideas I've never put into words before.

Sometimes we have such different experiences in life that what someone else posts just plain flat makes no sense to another person, and that's happened to me, too, not just as the person who doesn't understand but also as the person who is not understood.

These are the difficulties of having these kinds of conversations online.

Every difficulty, though, has a benefit. The benefit of this struggle to say what we mean in a way that others can understand--and get what we truly meant, in the way we meant it--especially when we're trying to talk about things we've never had the words for before, is that we all have a chance to see gender identities (again, not individual people's gender identities, but "gender identities" as a category) in new or expanded ways.

I would not be the person I am today if I hadn't had the benefit of this kind of discussion several times over the years. Reading what others had to say and then figuring out if it fit my life or not brought me peace with my own identity and helped me to feel like I was part of a real community.

To answer Kayden's question about masculinity and stereotypes, I think our current b-f community ideas about masculinity are partly based on stereotypes, and I think that's unavoidable. Just saying the word "masculine" brings up instant stereotypical images. It's supposed to; that's what words do. It's like an icon that we click in our brains to open a program, yanno? It's supposed to do that.

The value I find in conversations like this is that we can go beyond those images; the icon may open the program Masculinity 1.0, but our conversations can update it to Masculinity 1.2, or 2.6, 3.0... who knows how far we can update the program if we're willing to keep talking? And so even though it's a struggle to find words that others will understand, and even though after all these years I still cannot articulate completely what "masculine" or "butch" might be even when I do have the words, and even though I know I will more than likely fail again each time I try, I still believe the conversation is valuable to our community.

Edited to add--here's a video that I really liked, called "Tomboy." It's about a 9 year old girl who runs into gender stereotypes at school. http://vimeo.com/10654889

[Darth Denkay]

Thanks to all who have been a part of this discussion. In hind-sight, I probably could have come up with a better name for this thread. I wasn't actually trying to get at what specifically makes any of us butch, but more a general discussion around identities and stereotypes. Bit did a good job explaining it in a clearer way.

I've been thinking a lot about stereotypes lately, hence the thread. When I think about stereotypes, at least some do provide a description accurate for most folks. Using butch as an example, a stereotype of being butch is that butches have shorter haircuts. I imagine that is true for many butches out there. In other words it is common for butches to have short haircuts. At some point some stereotypes cross a line into requirement territory - if you are butch you have short hair. Now a butch who has long hair suddenly is no longer butch, because the stereotype is understood as an absolute. Seems to me that stereotypes that are descriptive without being absolutes or carrying value judgments aren't a bad thing.

We create stereotypes to help us understand the world. They provide us with a basis of information from which to start, so that every time we bring in a piece of information (and remember, we are bringing in hundreds of pieces of information every minute) we're not starting from square one each time. If stereotypes/schemas didn't exist the world would be overwhelming. I think stereotypes in and of themselves aren't problematic, but the way they are used is. When used simply as a starting point, not viewed as an absolute, and carrying no negative judgment, they are useful. When they are used to exclude or judge, that's where I see the problem. Does this make sense?

[Jett]

Thanks to all who have been a part of this discussion. In hind-sight, I probably could have come up with a better name for this thread. I wasn't actually trying to get at what specifically makes any of us butch, but more a general discussion around identities and stereotypes. Bit did a good job explaining it in a clearer way.

I've been thinking a lot about stereotypes lately, hence the thread. When I think about stereotypes, at least some do provide a description accurate for most folks. Using butch as an example, a stereotype of being butch is that butches have shorter haircuts. I imagine that is true for many butches out there. In other words it is common for butches to have short haircuts. At some point some stereotypes cross a line into requirement territory - if you are butch you have short hair. Now a butch who has long hair suddenly is no longer butch, because the stereotype is understood as an absolute. Seems to me that stereotypes that are descriptive without being absolutes or carrying value judgments aren't a bad thing.

We create stereotypes to help us understand the world. They provide us with a basis of information from which to start, so that every time we bring in a piece of information (and remember, we are bringing in hundreds of pieces of information every minute) we're not starting from square one each time. If stereotypes/schemas didn't exist the world would be overwhelming. I think stereotypes in and of themselves aren't problematic, but the way they are used is. When used simply as a starting point, not viewed as an absolute, and carrying no negative judgment, they are useful. When they are used to exclude or judge, that's where I see the problem. Does this make sense?

Even know there is often some truth in stereotypes unfortunately stereotypes are too often used to as basis of un-founded prejudice and as an excuse not to re-think pre-judgments about the groups in question.

To me they're much less a guide point or archetype and more often a characature that really over-all a extreme few would ever actually fit.

Giving them credence as truth or making any assumptions or judgments based on them, instead of the individuals themselves sets up for a value system right off the bat... more _____... less _____ ... stereotype.

I think there's a difference between having an fair idea "what butch means" that there's a 101 ways we express ourselves as individuals... then people looking to stereotypes and going from there.

Just another way to be judged.

Metro

ETA: Hair cuts are one thing but there's also a lot of negative to the stereotype of butch, as stereotyping generally comes from people outside the group in question.

[Jet]

Something about this thread disturbs me. It's not the intent of the thread, so no disrespect toward Darth, who started this thread.

I think it's just that I find identity - yours, mine and whoever's - to be a very personal thing. How I got to where I am today was a journey, sometimes a battle, and most definitely an evolution.

Ditto. I don't even id as butch. it's bigger than that for me. and it's mine alone. the suffering is mine alone, and so is the payment to be me which is a straight man in a semi-female body.

[BullDog]

I think what butches have in common is having grown up with similar experiences and internal feelings that made us feel different from other girls/females. I use common and similar loosely, since our life experiences and internal feelings will vary from individual to individual as well as due to things like generation, geography, class, race etc.

Still, I think most butches grow up feeling different, being drawn to things that are often labeled "boys things," feeling an internal dissonance between what the world expects of us and how we feel about ourselves.

We may have had crushes on little girls, waited and waited until we could finally wear pants to school, longed to find others like us. Then we grew up and found other lesbians, gays, queers. Maybe lesbian fit, maybe it didn't, but even if it fit there seemed to be something missing that we couldn't quite figure out.

Some of us, before discovering the amazing femmes that were out there, maybe thought there was something wrong with us. Some us thought we were attracted to straight women because none of the lesbians really turned our heads.

Then we learned what butch was- in our various ways. It clicked. It fit. We felt more comfortable in our own skin.

To me butch is a journey and a place where I fit more comfortably in my own skin.

[DapperButch]

I think what butches have in common is having grown up with similar experiences and internal feelings that made us feel different from other girls/females. I use common and similar loosely, since our life experiences and internal feelings will vary from individual to individual as well as due to things like generation, geography, class, race etc.

Still, I think most butches grow up feeling different, being drawn to things that are often labeled "boys things," feeling an internal dissonance between what the world expects of us and how we feel about ourselves.

We may have had crushes on little girls, waited and waited until we could finally wear pants to school, longed to find others like us. Then we grew up and found other lesbians, gays, queers. Maybe lesbian fit, maybe it didn't, but even if it fit there seemed to be something missing that we couldn't quite figure out.

Some of us, before discovering the amazing femmes that were out there, maybe thought there was something wrong with us. Some us thought we were attracted to straight women because none of the lesbians really turned our heads.

Then we learned what butch was- in our various ways. It clicked. It fit. We felt more comfortable in our own skin.

To me butch is a journey and a place where I fit more comfortably in my own skin.

This is a really, really great post, BullDog. I think that you hit it right on the money for many of us.