Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[weatherboi]

Hi everybody!!

I am opening this thread to discuss a topic that keeps getting brought up in some form or fashion throughout various threads.

I am a trans/submissive/bottom/guy, that is in his second Femme led relationship. My first started over 20 years ago. I left that relationship without any instincts. I moved forward topping every aspect of my life and destroyed my own trustful nature. I got therapy and here I am.

The great thing about our community is we have all participated in evolving gender identity in our own way. This is why the spectrum is so wide.

I keep running into those "less than" conversations about energy exchange and how there seems to be a stigma with this type of intimate bond. My experience so far has been mostly from a corner watching others. I have been able to dodge the "belittle me bullet" from outsiders but it is just a matter of time before somebody addresses me as "less than" because of my relationship style. Sometimes I think it all revolves around misogyny and maybe even some mysandry. Any thoughts on this particular subject?? Any other subjects/experiences that will add value would be greatly appreciated!

[SuperFemme]

Of course it is rooted in misogyny. I guess we could give it a slice of misandry too.

Here is the notions that seems popular.

Butch = Masculine
Masculine = Male
Male = Strong and Dominant
Femme = Feminine
Feminine = Female
Female = Submissive and Weak

So when we don't ascribe to that ridiculous set of notions? We may encounter some bewilderment, ridicule, and yes...even shunning.

I am amazed that I consider myself to be surrounded by a *pro gender diversity* crowd, yet the binary seems suffocating at times.

Why is this? Because it is so deeply ingrained by socialization that it's pervasive.

[weatherboi]

Pervasive enough to equate what my behind doors business is to my gender id. I know for me it inhibits my interaction with some people in real time and on the websites. It is hard to sit back and watch a butch/trans/femme disrespect my relationship or my Ms because they view it as icky or "less than" because the roles are not on the binary their mind/experience had created .


Of course it is rooted in misogyny. I guess we could give it a slice of misandry too.

Here is the notions that seems popular.

Butch = Masculine
Masculine = Male
Male = Strong and Dominant
Femme = Feminine
Feminine = Female
Female = Submissive and Weak

So when we don't ascribe to that ridiculous set of notions? We may encounter some bewilderment, ridicule, and yes...even shunning.

I am amazed that I consider myself to be surrounded by a *pro gender diversity* crowd, yet the binary seems suffocating at times.

Why is this? Because it is so deeply ingrained by socialization that it's pervasive.

[SuperFemme]

Pervasive enough to equate what my behind doors business is to my gender id. I know for me it inhibits my interaction with some people in real time and on the websites. It is hard to sit back and watch a butch/trans/femme disrespect my relationship or my Ms because they view it as icky or "less than" because the roles are not on the binary their mind/experience had created .

I am sad that it inhibits your interactions with others, because others are missing out on some amazing people. Of course I am biased because I spend time with you both.

With that said it hurts me too, because you guys are my family. The problem IS pervasive when a Femme Daddy is considered *scary* or *angry* or when you are negated as weak because of your submissive side. I think you're one of the strongest people I know, and your Ms. is one of the best people I know.

What is the right answer? I feel like it is unfair that you have to inhibit your interactions OR you have to educate. Over and over again. That seems tiresome.

[weatherboi]

:flowers: don't be sad...ever!!!!

For me, entering into my relationship was almost offensive to some people and I couldn't figure out why. I had people tell me to my voice, "i don't think You are a submissive bottom". I also had people enter my space and bash me anonymously...it was weird. My experience is that sometimes people just wanna believe what they wanna believe. My life has been more strategic than that. I didn't just wake up one day feeling this way.

I think the right answer is relative, just like education/knowledge. It would be nice to know that our community here and out there has the head space to work on the conscious concept of the "less than" idea and how they participate in reversing this kind of thinking. It pertains to all of us in some form or fashion.


I am sad that it inhibits your interactions with others, because others are missing out on some amazing people. Of course I am biased because I spend time with you both.

With that said it hurts me too, because you guys are my family. The problem IS pervasive when a Femme Daddy is considered *scary* or *angry* or when you are negated as weak because of your submissive side. I think you're one of the strongest people I know, and your Ms. is one of the best people I know.

What is the right answer? I feel like it is unfair that you have to inhibit your interactions OR you have to educate. Over and over again. That seems tiresome.

[Sachita]

This is so interesting and lots on my mind with similar topic. Thank you for bring it up. I'm going to subscribe and come back later.

[Queerasfck]

Thank you for starting this! And I swear to Pete, if any Jackass comes in here and says something like "I'm too Butch/Masculine to be a bottom..." I will come after them with my broom.



OOOOooooooo Juneeyyyyyyyyyy I'm too butch/masc.........just kidding. You are fun to wind up.

What I really came in here to say is that I really do agree with you Weatherboi, the way I view the gender spectrum is that it is wide and encompassing for all. I support and embrace you brother.
I have definitely seen lots of negative stereotypes about butch subs within our own community. With that there does seem to be a stigma attached to it within our very own queer community as well. My feeling is that as people we live in a male dominated world so naturally anything that threatens that would be looked at as less than.

It's great that you started the thread.

[Diva]

Hi everybody!!

I am opening this thread to discuss a topic that keeps getting brought up in some form or fashion throughout various threads.

I am a trans/submissive/bottom/guy, that is in his second Femme led relationship. My first started over 20 years ago. I left that relationship without any instincts. I moved forward topping every aspect of my life and destroyed my own trustful nature. I got therapy and here I am.

The great thing about our community is we have all participated in evolving gender identity in our own way. This is why the spectrum is so wide.

I keep running into those "less than" conversations about energy exchange and how there seems to be a stigma with this type of intimate bond. My experience so far has been mostly from a corner watching others. I have been able to dodge the "belittle me bullet" from outsiders but it is just a matter of time before somebody addresses me as "less than" because of my relationship style. Sometimes I think it all revolves around misogyny and maybe even some mysandry. Any thoughts on this particular subject?? Any other subjects/experiences that will add value would be greatly appreciated!


I admire you for starting this thread.......and I just think you are yet another dear piece of our Community Puzzle.....

And there you have it. :thumbsup:

[Daywalker]

Well, I for one think it's fucking beautiful.
:rose:

The power in this dynamic belongs to both parties involved.

:toast:

:daywalker:

[ravfem]

:flowers: don't be sad...ever!!!!

For me, entering into my relationship was almost offensive to some people and I couldn't figure out why. I had people tell me to my voice, "i don't think You are a submissive bottom". I also had people enter my space and bash me anonymously...it was weird. My experience is that sometimes people just wanna believe what they wanna believe. My life has been more strategic than that. I didn't just wake up one day feeling this way.

I think the right answer is relative, just like education/knowledge. It would be nice to know that our community here and out there has the head space to work on the conscious concept of the "less than" idea and how they participate in reversing this kind of thinking. It pertains to all of us in some form or fashion.

i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas. :explode:

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

[weatherboi]

Thanks Ezee-
Your support and participation is very appreciated by me. I get the whole male dominance thing and how it has stemmed itself in our fabric as we all explore our identities. I know what bugs me is that how it comes to be that we as a community have allowed this type of thinking to further itself by invading our community and how we approach it to help reverse it. For me it comes in the form of sticking up for myself and what I choose for myself. Calling out my friends and sometimes people that aren't my friends but bystanders.


OOOOooooooo Juneeyyyyyyyyyy I'm too butch/masc.........just kidding. You are fun to wind up.

What I really came in here to say is that I really do agree with you Weatherboi, the way I view the gender spectrum is that it is wide and encompassing for all. I support and embrace you brother.
I have definitely seen lots of negative stereotypes about butch subs within our own community. With that there does seem to be a stigma attached to it within our very own queer community as well. My feeling is that as people we live in a male dominated world so naturally anything that threatens that would be looked at as less than.

It's great that you started the thread.

[Martina]

i have encountered some similar responses from people because, as a femme, i sometimes serve Femme Tops. i have not had anyone question whether i am truly a submissive, but they have tried to cast doubt on my femmeness or just been disrespectful. It's not the same, i know. But i do relate to what you are writing about.

Re butch bottoms/submissives, i do have a comment. This might sound like i am bragging. i don't mean to be -- although i am very proud of my Sir. (And my Ma'am, too!) i just want to make a point.

One of the Dominants i serve, a butch, primarily ID's as a submissive -- majordomo type. Sir is also a Dominant to me and a Daddy to Her femme partner (my other Dominant). Actually She is not currently in a relationship in which She is submissive, but i am sure She does not rule the possibility out.

The point is that She has served happily, and, i am sure, bottomed gleefully.

Does my Dominant have power? OH MY GOD, yes! Is she butch? OH, GOD, YES! It makes me weak in the knees to pick up the phone and hear that deep, commanding voice.

Anyone who thinks butches who bottom or serve are somehow "less than" would change their minds is a flash if they spent time any time with Her.

Thanks for the thread.
------

[Massive]

Respect to you for starting this thread weatherboi!
I've seen this happen too many times, I've been on the receiving end of the snide remarks and the 'can't call yourself Butch if you've been fucked like that' asides, and you know what? I thought even less of those saying those things because they don't have the right to judge anyone else.
I'm Switch, I'm proud of that, I've been submissive, Top/Dominant, Butch-Bottom to Femme Tops, Butch Tops and FtM's, and now I'm a Syr and Daddy, and all all of My experiences has shown Me is that we're all different, and we're all allowed to live how we choose to without having to bow down to peer pressure and criticism from adults who should know better.
This is our community, we should all be accepted, regardless of who we are, what we do, who we fuck, or who we choose to get fucked by ...
We're all unique people, can anyone else really judge Me for the way I choose to live My life? I think not! If they do *shrugs* then it's their loss, that they aren't capable of accepting other peoples differences.
Live and let live I say.

[Kenna]

Hi everybody!!

I am opening this thread to discuss a topic that keeps getting brought up in some form or fashion throughout various threads.

I am a trans/submissive/bottom/guy, that is in his second Femme led relationship. My first started over 20 years ago. I left that relationship without any instincts. I moved forward topping every aspect of my life and destroyed my own trustful nature. I got therapy and here I am.

The great thing about our community is we have all participated in evolving gender identity in our own way. This is why the spectrum is so wide.

I keep running into those "less than" conversations about energy exchange and how there seems to be a stigma with this type of intimate bond. My experience so far has been mostly from a corner watching others. I have been able to dodge the "belittle me bullet" from outsiders but it is just a matter of time before somebody addresses me as "less than" because of my relationship style. Sometimes I think it all revolves around misogyny and maybe even some mysandry. Any thoughts on this particular subject?? Any other subjects/experiences that will add value would be greatly appreciated!


I appreciate this conversation. Thank you.

Misogny has a lot to do with it.... but also, some individuals are afraid of change or afraid of things that are done differently than what they consider "the norm". They attempt to force their beliefs on us, or scorn us for not being "normal"... maybe, inside they want to explore your type of relationship style, but are afraid of also being perceived as "less than"...so they quietly dream about it, but don't act on it, instead they continue to scorn those that do act on their inner self.

You talk of our own personal evolution of our gender identity...
I agree that there is a stigma about your preferred type of bond. Mostly, (coming from a "me & I" place), I think stigmas come about because the person imposing the stigma has fears, inhibitions, lack of education, self esteem issues, issues with how they were raised to believe, or are too self absorbed to understand that their way is not the only or best way to live. Sometimes, the stigma around your type of bond is directed at both the sub and top because those imposing the stigma try to force their perceptions & beliefs...or interject their fears without personally knowing the couple in question. Sadly, the stigma becomes a personal attack like what you describe as a bullet. I admire your strength to dodge that bullet.


(Please note... this is hard for me to explain, but I will try anyway...I use the term submissive in a different definition than you are describing... to me, my submissive means I "give in" unwillingly to someone I really don't want to be with, or to do something with them that they know I don't like or is a boundary of mine, but they make me submit anyway because "it's their way or nothing". In the past, I've submitted to save my little cousin and sister from harm...or I've submitted to "get it over with and them off of me". To me there are two different ways of being submissive; what I describe here, which holds a negative feeling for me... and the submissive energy you and others enjoy, which is a very positive energy. )

I don't consider myself a Femme Top... or a Femme Bottom... After being single for many years, I haven't been with anyone that I could explore being Femme Top with. I don't know how I feel about that, if I were given the chance. I'm still evolving...but, I've recently accepted my evolution as a Femme Middle (my own term, after struggling with my ID and perceptions of what other's think I am/should be). I am very comfortable with being Femme Middle because it gives me a sense of security I've never had. I have heard the term Femme Switch...this does not fit me either and isn't what I mean by Femme Middle.

I am far from weak and grit my teeth when it is implied that I am weak or "less than" or that I should take "second fiddle" to my partner of choice because they perceive themselves - or someone else perceives them - to be "the leader" of our relationship. I do not like to be submissive because of YEARS of being made to submit in a very negative way. Although, I have often been made to feel less than. Especially when I first came out and ID'd as Femme Bottom (because I didn't know about other ID's or how to evolve with my own)?

Maybe being made to feel less than is one reason why I reject being the positive submissive? (has anyone else ever felt that way?) I get very "hot under the collar" when I am treated like I'm less than or given less respect because I may possibly be submissive. It's a very big trigger point for me. Maybe because I was forced to be submissive as a child and young adult? Lately though, I've become very content with "owing" what makes me Femme Middle - a very sassy Femme Middle - and I finally take pride in "coming into my own". Femme Middle means something very special to me. I'm not sure if I could be Femme Top... but do respect and admire those that are, as well as their partners. I have so little experience with a partner - after being single for the most part since 1996 - that it's hard for me to explore my gender and preferences, or to judge what I am comfortable with or not. I do have boundaries, mostly to do with PTSD. I have wondered if I am Stone Femme? But for now, Femme Middle fits me very well.

I am very happy for you that you have found an intimate bond that you can completely enjoy and give yourself to. By what I describe above, I don't want you to think I would EVER belittle you in any way. I'm just having trouble finding my words is all.

Maybe one day, I will find a partner that I will willingly and without inhibitions be submissive to? Your positive kind of submissive energy. Maybe they will enjoy my being Femme Middle and I can explore being submissive without fear of being judged or "put into a little box" of their description of Femme? Maybe, if we both feel safe doing so, they won't mind me exploring being Femme Top? I certainly enjoy "giving" - submitting to a partner is a form of giving, as well as giving them specific attentions. I'm not sure about being in a Femme Led Relationship...although I am very sassy and independent, however it plays out, it must be a two way energy and relationship and NO "giving in" just because I felt I had to. I would enjoy finding a partner that would enjoy my gender and energy in the way you so affectionately describe. I will always continue to reject stigmas, bullets and little gray boxes with my sassy Femme way. Someone else's fears do not need to hurt me or become my own.

Being placed in someone's little gray box with their forced views written all over the walls, will make me fight like a caged wild Tigress. I hate little gray boxes and strongly disagree with/push away those that force me into their box.

There are times when I feel Top... but don't act on it because I am very happy being Femme Middle.


PS... I am Femme... but many of my likes and hobbies are considered "too masculine" for me. Especially with me liking all things mechanical and working in the construction field as a Forman and Boss for many years. I get very pissed at being forced into the a box filled with misogyny about "femme's shouldn't do that", "femme's can't do that because they will complain about breaking nails", "that's not how I like my Femmes, they should be frilly and fru fru", etc etc... It's the kind of person that forces me into that misogynistic box that I would LOVE to go Femme Top on!! I am Femme, hear me ROAR!

[weatherboi]

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.





i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas. :explode:

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

[Kenna]

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.

I very much agree... speaking from my personal experiences only. And may be another reason why I reject being a femme sub/bottom? However, I wouldn't reject exploring what it would be like to enjoy a dynamic with a FTM/Butch bottom...

[Martina]

From my observation, Butch or Trans Dominants and their butch or trans submissives get less shit than Femme Dominants and their butch or trans submissives. Makes sense. In the former case, at least half of the expected hierarchy is in place.

Has that already been said? If so, i apologize. Tired tonight.

[weatherboi]

Hi Massive and thank you for your participation.
I really respect that your space is so well rounded and that you so fiercely understand the struggle a trans/butch submissive/slave/bottom and their Femme Tops/Daddys encounter in this dynamic. When you were submitting/bottoming did you ever experience another butch (not in BDSM) disrespect your Ms? As a bottom have you ever noticed how there seems to be forming a pattern of submissives using a victim stance to leave/dismiss a relationship?

Respect to you for starting this thread weatherboi!
I've seen this happen too many times, I've been on the receiving end of the snide remarks and the 'can't call yourself Butch if you've been fucked like that' asides, and you know what? I thought even less of those saying those things because they don't have the right to judge anyone else.
I'm Switch, I'm proud of that, I've been submissive, Top/Dominant, Butch-Bottom to Femme Tops, Butch Tops and FtM's, and now I'm a Syr and Daddy, and all all of My experiences has shown Me is that we're all different, and we're all allowed to live how we choose to without having to bow down to peer pressure and criticism from adults who should know better.
This is our community, we should all be accepted, regardless of who we are, what we do, who we fuck, or who we choose to get fucked by ...
We're all unique people, can anyone else really judge Me for the way I choose to live My life? I think not! If they do *shrugs* then it's their loss, that they aren't capable of accepting other peoples differences.
Live and let live I say.

[SuperFemme]

I appreciate this conversation. Thank you.

Misogny has a lot to do with it.... but also, some individuals are afraid of change or afraid of things that are done differently than what they consider "the norm". They attempt to force their beliefs on us, or scorn us for not being "normal"... maybe, inside they want to explore your type of relationship style, but are afraid of also being perceived as "less than"...so they quietly dream about it, but don't act on it, instead they continue to scorn those that do act on their inner self.

You talk of our own personal evolution of our gender identity...
I agree that there is a stigma about your preferred type of bond. Mostly, (coming from a "me & I" place), I think stigmas come about because the person imposing the stigma has fears, inhibitions, lack of education, self esteem issues, issues with how they were raised to believe, or are too self absorbed to understand that their way is not the only or best way to live. Sometimes, the stigma around your type of bond is directed at both the sub and top because those imposing the stigma try to force their perceptions & beliefs...or interject their fears without personally knowing the couple in question. Sadly, the stigma becomes a personal attack like what you describe as a bullet. I admire your strength to dodge that bullet.


(Please note... this is hard for me to explain, but I will try anyway...I use the term submissive in a different definition than you are describing... to me, my submissive means I "give in" unwillingly to someone I really don't want to be with, or to do something with them that they know I don't like or is a boundary of mine, but they make me submit anyway because "it's their way or nothing". In the past, I've submitted to save my little cousin and sister from harm...or I've submitted to "get it over with and them off of me". To me there are two different ways of being submissive; what I describe here, which holds a negative feeling for me... and the submissive energy you and others enjoy, which is a very positive energy. )

I don't consider myself a Femme Top... or a Femme Bottom... After being single for many years, I haven't been with anyone that I could explore being Femme Top with. I don't know how I feel about that, if I were given the chance. I'm still evolving...but, I've recently accepted my evolution as a Femme Middle (my own term, after struggling with my ID and perceptions of what other's think I am/should be). I am very comfortable with being Femme Middle because it gives me a sense of security I've never had. I have heard the term Femme Switch...this does not fit me either and isn't what I mean by Femme Middle.

I am far from weak and grit my teeth when it is implied that I am weak or "less than" or that I should take "second fiddle" to my partner of choice because they perceive themselves - or someone else perceives them - to be "the leader" of our relationship. I do not like to be submissive because of YEARS of being made to submit in a very negative way. Although, I have often been made to feel less than. Especially when I first came out and ID'd as Femme Bottom (because I didn't know about other ID's or how to evolve with my own)?

Maybe being made to feel less than is one reason why I reject being the positive submissive? (has anyone else ever felt that way?) I get very "hot under the collar" when I am treated like I'm less than or given less respect because I may possibly be submissive. It's a very big trigger point for me. Maybe because I was forced to be submissive as a child and young adult? Lately though, I've become very content with "owing" what makes me Femme Middle - a very sassy Femme Middle - and I finally take pride in "coming into my own". Femme Middle means something very special to me. I'm not sure if I could be Femme Top... but do respect and admire those that are, as well as their partners. I have so little experience with a partner - after being single for the most part since 1996 - that it's hard for me to explore my gender and preferences, or to judge what I am comfortable with or not. I do have boundaries, mostly to do with PTSD. I have wondered if I am Stone Femme? But for now, Femme Middle fits me very well.

I am very happy for you that you have found an intimate bond that you can completely enjoy and give yourself to. By what I describe above, I don't want you to think I would EVER belittle you in any way. I'm just having trouble finding my words is all.

Maybe one day, I will find a partner that I will willingly and without inhibitions be submissive to? Your positive kind of submissive energy. Maybe they will enjoy my being Femme Middle and I can explore being submissive without fear of being judged or "put into a little box" of their description of Femme? Maybe, if we both feel safe doing so, they won't mind me exploring being Femme Top? I certainly enjoy "giving" - submitting to a partner is a form of giving, as well as giving them specific attentions. I'm not sure about being in a Femme Led Relationship...although I am very sassy and independent, however it plays out, it must be a two way energy and relationship and NO "giving in" just because I felt I had to. I would enjoy finding a partner that would enjoy my gender and energy in the way you so affectionately describe. I will always continue to reject stigmas, bullets and little gray boxes with my sassy Femme way. Someone else's fears do not need to hurt me or become my own.

Being placed in someone's little gray box with their forced views written all over the walls, will make me fight like a caged wild Tigress. I hate little gray boxes and strongly disagree with/push away those that force me into their box.

There are times when I feel Top... but don't act on it because I am very happy being Femme Middle.


PS... I am Femme... but many of my likes and hobbies are considered "too masculine" for me. Especially with me liking all things mechanical and working in the construction field as a Forman and Boss for many years. I get very pissed at being forced into the a box filled with misogyny about "femme's shouldn't do that", "femme's can't do that because they will complain about breaking nails", "that's not how I like my Femmes, they should be frilly and fru fru", etc etc... It's the kind of person that forces me into that misogynistic box that I would LOVE to go Femme Top on!! I am Femme, hear me ROAR!

Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equates to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?

[Rufusboi]

Of course it is rooted in misogyny. I guess we could give it a slice of misandry too.

Here is the notions that seems popular.

Butch = Masculine
Masculine = Male
Male = Strong and Dominant
Femme = Feminine
Feminine = Female
Female = Submissive and Weak

So when we don't ascribe to that ridiculous set of notions? We may encounter some bewilderment, ridicule, and yes...even shunning.

I am amazed that I consider myself to be surrounded by a *pro gender diversity* crowd, yet the binary seems suffocating at times.

Why is this? Because it is so deeply ingrained by socialization that it's pervasive.

Great post. We forget the sex, gender and sexuality are not aligned in a neat little package. We of all people should know that the binaries of male/female, aggressive/passive, strong/weak have no meaning or merit. I mean, come on, this discussion has been going on for decades now. Why do we keep forgetting this. Conciousness raising groups in the 70s were hashing this out. 40 years later we are still falling into the binary trap.

Rufus

[weatherboi]

Thank you Superfemme!!

I wasn't really sure how to word my response and you did it perfectly. When first discussing my dynamic with my cousin I found she was coming from a vanilla lack of knowledge perspective and assumed just this. I will never forget how terribly upset she got over it and how I spent the afternoon educating her on just the opposite of her perspective. Her blurred view created her much anguish. Now she spends lots of time asking questions about our dynamic. She loves loves loves my Ms!!!



Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equate to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?

[weatherboi]

I appreciate this conversation. Thank you.

Misogny has a lot to do with it.... but also, some individuals are afraid of change or afraid of things that are done differently than what they consider "the norm". They attempt to force their beliefs on us, or scorn us for not being "normal"... maybe, inside they want to explore your type of relationship style, but are afraid of also being perceived as "less than"...so they quietly dream about it, but don't act on it, instead they continue to scorn those that do act on their inner self.

I am not so sure my experiences dictate that it is about people being envious of my dynamic and there lack of exploration. When a misogynistic situation presents itself and invades my dynamic it usually comes in the form of a trans or butch person trying to swtich my Ms or bait her slaves with belittling words.

You talk of our own personal evolution of our gender identity...
I agree that there is a stigma about your preferred type of bond. Mostly, (coming from a "me & I" place), I think stigmas come about because the person imposing the stigma has fears, inhibitions, lack of education, self esteem issues, issues with how they were raised to believe, or are too self absorbed to understand that their way is not the only or best way to live. Sometimes, the stigma around your type of bond is directed at both the sub and top because those imposing the stigma try to force their perceptions & beliefs...or interject their fears without personally knowing the couple in question. Sadly, the stigma becomes a personal attack like what you describe as a bullet. I admire your strength to dodge that bullet.

thanks for acknowledging this.


(Please note... this is hard for me to explain, but I will try anyway...I use the term submissive in a different definition than you are describing... to me, my submissive means I "give in" unwillingly to someone I really don't want to be with, or to do something with them that they know I don't like or is a boundary of mine, but they make me submit anyway because "it's their way or nothing". In the past, I've submitted to save my little cousin and sister from harm...or I've submitted to "get it over with and them off of me". To me there are two different ways of being submissive; what I describe here, which holds a negative feeling for me... and the submissive energy you and others enjoy, which is a very positive energy. )
i think you may be best served reading some literature on D/s. it will help you work out some of this confusion you seem to be struggling with surrounding this dynamic. you have a plethora of resources at your fingertips.

I don't consider myself a Femme Top... or a Femme Bottom... After being single for many years, I haven't been with anyone that I could explore being Femme Top with. I don't know how I feel about that, if I were given the chance. I'm still evolving...but, I've recently accepted my evolution as a Femme Middle (my own term, after struggling with my ID and perceptions of what other's think I am/should be). I am very comfortable with being Femme Middle because it gives me a sense of security I've never had. I have heard the term Femme Switch...this does not fit me either and isn't what I mean by Femme Middle.
listening to your experience i can see where femme middle evolved for you...good for you

I am far from weak and grit my teeth when it is implied that I am weak or "less than" or that I should take "second fiddle" to my partner of choice because they perceive themselves - or someone else perceives them - to be "the leader" of our relationship. I do not like to be submissive because of YEARS of being made to submit in a very negative way. Although, I have often been made to feel less than. Especially when I first came out and ID'd as Femme Bottom (because I didn't know about other ID's or how to evolve with my own)?

Maybe being made to feel less than is one reason why I reject being the positive submissive? (has anyone else ever felt that way?) I get very "hot under the collar" when I am treated like I'm less than or given less respect because I may possibly be submissive. It's a very big trigger point for me. Maybe because I was forced to be submissive as a child and young adult? Lately though, I've become very content with "owing" what makes me Femme Middle - a very sassy Femme Middle - and I finally take pride in "coming into my own". Femme Middle means something very special to me. I'm not sure if I could be Femme Top... but do respect and admire those that are, as well as their partners. I have so little experience with a partner - after being single for the most part since 1996 - that it's hard for me to explore my gender and preferences, or to judge what I am comfortable with or not. I do have boundaries, mostly to do with PTSD. I have wondered if I am Stone Femme? But for now, Femme Middle fits me very well.



I am very happy for you that you have found an intimate bond that you can completely enjoy and give yourself to. By what I describe above, I don't want you to think I would EVER belittle you in any way. I'm just having trouble finding my words is all.

Maybe one day, I will find a partner that I will willingly and without inhibitions be submissive to? Your positive kind of submissive energy. Maybe they will enjoy my being Femme Middle and I can explore being submissive without fear of being judged or "put into a little box" of their description of Femme? Maybe, if we both feel safe doing so, they won't mind me exploring being Femme Top? I certainly enjoy "giving" - submitting to a partner is a form of giving, as well as giving them specific attentions. I'm not sure about being in a Femme Led Relationship...although I am very sassy and independent, however it plays out, it must be a two way energy and relationship and NO "giving in" just because I felt I had to. I would enjoy finding a partner that would enjoy my gender and energy in the way you so affectionately describe. I will always continue to reject stigmas, bullets and little gray boxes with my sassy Femme way. Someone else's fears do not need to hurt me or become my own.

Being placed in someone's little gray box with their forced views written all over the walls, will make me fight like a caged wild Tigress. I hate little gray boxes and strongly disagree with/push away those that force me into their box.

There are times when I feel Top... but don't act on it because I am very happy being Femme Middle.


PS... I am Femme... but many of my likes and hobbies are considered "too masculine" for me. Especially with me liking all things mechanical and working in the construction field as a Forman and Boss for many years. I get very pissed at being forced into the a box filled with misogyny about "femme's shouldn't do that", "femme's can't do that because they will complain about breaking nails", "that's not how I like my Femmes, they should be frilly and fru fru", etc etc... It's the kind of person that forces me into that misogynistic box that I would LOVE to go Femme Top on!! I am Femme, hear me ROAR!


I think many femmes feel the way you do!! Thanks for your input sweet!!

[Apocalipstic]

Yeay, what a great thread!

Yes, I think Femme Tops, Femme Daddys, Butch Bottoms, Femme Cock etc etc. freaks people out and I love that!

It is sad that in a community that prides itself on bluring gender, people get so bent out of shape. We have enountered it often, but hope maybe people will become more open minded as they learn about different lifestyles?

I think it is important for those of us who don't do a set Male=Butch=Dominant and vice versa thing speak out and be visible. :)

I for one am thrilled that there are Butches in this world who do not 'haaave" to run the show.

I think it shows incredible strenth to gift control to another person and I admire this quality more than I can say.

[Kenna]

Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equates to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?

So no one misinterprets my tone or awkward struggle to find the right words, this comes from a place of total respect and dignity for everyone here.

At first, I didn't understand your post... and I still may not? But, I wasn't trying to focus my discussion on the negative submissive ways or twist things about, or blur any lines. I was attempting to explain where I was coming from, and to offer my support for sub/bois that enjoy their positive dynamic and for their Ms. I over explained myself, I understand that now. I also was not attempting to perpetuate any false information or stigma. I was trying to voice a distaste for exactly that. Yes, I do believe it is dangerous to blur the line and I meant no disrespect at all. I do agree that being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult does not pertain to this conversation. I did mention that I was having trouble finding the right words... and did mention that I haven't had the opportunity to enjoy the positive submissiveness of any relationship or dynamic... I was trying to show respect for those that do enjoy and partake.

I attempted to focus the majority of my post on being made to feel "less than" and how that makes me (and others) reject exploring their desires to be sub. But apparently, I've stepped on toes or over stepped my bounds. I stand scalded and will gladly and with dignity learn from it.

Thank you Superfemme!!

I wasn't really sure how to word my response and you did it perfectly. When first discussing my dynamic with my cousin I found she was coming from a vanilla lack of knowledge perspective and assumed just this. I will never forget how terribly upset she got over it and how I spent the afternoon educating her on just the opposite of her perspective. Her blurred view created her much anguish. Now she spends lots of time asking questions about our dynamic. She loves loves loves my Ms!!!

Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

[Kenna]

I think many femmes feel the way you do!! Thanks for your input sweet!!

Thank you very kindly and I apologize for misunderstanding earlier.

[SuperFemme]

So no one misinterprets my tone or awkward struggle to find the right words, this comes from a place of total respect and dignity for everyone here.

At first, I didn't understand your post... and I still may not? But, I wasn't trying to focus my discussion on the negative submissive ways or twist things about, or blur any lines. I was attempting to explain where I was coming from, and to offer my support for sub/bois that enjoy their positive dynamic and for their Ms. I over explained myself, I understand that now. I also was not attempting to perpetuate any false information or stigma. I was trying to voice a distaste for exactly that. Yes, I do believe it is dangerous to blur the line and I meant no disrespect at all. I do agree that being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult does not pertain to this conversation. I did mention that I was having trouble finding the right words... and did mention that I haven't had the opportunity to enjoy the positive submissiveness of any relationship or dynamic... I was trying to show respect for those that do enjoy and partake.

I attempted to focus the majority of my post on being made to feel "less than" and how that makes me (and others) reject exploring their desires to be sub. But apparently, I've stepped on toes or over stepped my bounds. I stand scalded and will gladly and with dignity learn from it.



Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.


I know you were coming from a really good place Sweet, and your tone is great. I hope understand that nobody's toes were stepped on in you post, because I don't want you to think that.

I was pointing out how it read. No worries, ok?

[weatherboi]

Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

This statement I made was specific to my experience with my cousin not pertaining to you. I don't know you so I can not say what you lack or don't. I should have made that clearer and I apologize. I usually separate my thoughts with a space. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I will say that this is not what I experience in "leather" elements but other elements. Make sense sweet?

[WingsOnFire]

I can totally relate to this subject... I am a Switch. I began my relationship with my Daddy as his babygirl.. We evolved into a D/s D/g relationship.

My Daddy is an FTM and is also a Switch. We both have a dominant and a submissive side. He is predominantly my Daddy/Sir, I am his babygirl/submissive. But I am also Mistress to his submissive boy side.

I have had to watch my lesbian friends look of disgust when I explain why I call my partner "he". Add to that trying to explain D/s roles I very rarely will explain I also have a submissive boy... I refuse to subject him to anyone who will put him down or make him feel bad. Of course I also live in the bible belt.

If my friends judge my relationship ANY PART of my relationship I let them fade into my past as I don't have time for people like that. My boy is very special to me and I will protect him with my life... Just as Daddy protects his babygirl with his life. My two best (straight) friends know about my submissive boy and I know they will always be respectful toward my relationship.

I have not discussed this openly much because being a Switch is often looked up negatively as well.

I really am happy to see the positiveness this community is showing on Butch Femme Planet. I am pleased that Daddy and I have joined this site... And I am very glad you started this thread weatherboi.. I am so glad you felt secure enough to discuss how you feel and how others have made you feel when they are disrespectful to your Ms.

I look forward to reading further comments on this subject.

Becca

[Toughy]

One day hanging with a bunch of butch folk over a beer and a pool table the conversation turned to Femme Tops and butch bottoms. Some of those Butch Top folk are doing the posturing, chest bumping, knuckle dragging crap about no self respecting butch would get fucked or beat............<big ole snort>

Well....being who I am........I kinda smiled and said....

I bottom to a Femme Top and have been for a few years now.

<dead silence>

....you fill in the blanks....

One of the things I love most about the kink community (in general) lives in the idea that kink and sexuality have nothing to do with gender.


weatherboi...........please oh please tell anyone who insults you about being a bottom to come talk to me.............please................laughin...... .....please............

One of the things I know is this........and I was reminded this by an old friend who I saw in a cafe the other day.......

bottoms run the fuck

[weatherboi]

Hi Becca-
Thanks for taking the time to post about your relationship and experiences. Evolution is great between 2 people. Switching is cool. I have never been involved in a relationship where we switched. I think it would be hard for me to Top my Ms. Confusing for me. Now don't get me wrong I can reciprocate fucking her but I will never be topping her. Make sense? Has switching ever been a struggle in your D/g dynamic?



I can totally relate to this subject... I am a Switch. I began my relationship with my Daddy as his babygirl.. We evolved into a D/s D/g relationship.

My Daddy is an FTM and is also a Switch. We both have a dominant and a submissive side. He is predominantly my Daddy/Sir, I am his babygirl/submissive. But I am also Mistress to his submissive boy side.

I have had to watch my lesbian friends look of disgust when I explain why I call my partner "he". Add to that trying to explain D/s roles I very rarely will explain I also have a submissive boy... I refuse to subject him to anyone who will put him down or make him feel bad. Of course I also live in the bible belt.

If my friends judge my relationship ANY PART of my relationship I let them fade into my past as I don't have time for people like that. My boy is very special to me and I will protect him with my life... Just as Daddy protects his babygirl with his life. My two best (straight) friends know about my submissive boy and I know they will always be respectful toward my relationship.

I have not discussed this openly much because being a Switch is often looked up negatively as well.

I really am happy to see the positiveness this community is showing on Butch Femme Planet. I am pleased that Daddy and I have joined this site... And I am very glad you started this thread weatherboi.. I am so glad you felt secure enough to discuss how you feel and how others have made you feel when they are disrespectful to your Ms.

I look forward to reading further comments on this subject.

Becca

[Isadora]

I have been served by four bois in my life. Their strength and butchness was never questioned...they all have both. The ridicule they put up with from femmes who were disappointed they were "really not tops", to butches into butches who can't figure out what they see in Me, to being hurt as the big bad butch top next to them goes into a fit of frenzied denial when mistaken for a bottom (like it was some kind of horrid possibility), to the butch top who tells them bottom butches are only good for a blow job, to being asked if hy wore frilly panties, too...all insulting, all hurtful and all unnecessary.

D once said to me, "Ma'am, I am the butch of your dreams and the bottom of your fantasies." Hy was both and wonderful.

[sharkchomp]

Weatherboi

There's alot of judgemental people in the world. It's just plain ignorance and perhaps laziness too. Not to mention a lot of assumptions. The truth is, perception isn't always reality.

The perception is that bottom/sub boy = weak but the reality is bottom/sub boy, girl, femme, woman, man, butch, etc etc = a very strong person. There are people who just can't get past their perceptions and nothing anyone says, even with the most eloquent explanation, will never change that.

When someone says that you are weak what they are really saying is that they are not (even if they never verbally say that they are not weak, that is silently implied. This line of thinking is judgemental and seperatist. It puts you in one corner and them [supposedly] on their shining pedestal.

Who knows exactly why they don't get it or don't accept the depth of strength it takes to submit or bottom to another, regardless of gender. The truth is that line of thinking is their perception. I suggest the next time someone wants to put you in said corner, you merely smile. And in that smile, decide if they are someone worth your time and effort to educate.

And remember what the truth is when you hear this line of ignorance - that their ignorance is no true reflection of you. You are no less of a person, you are not a weak sub/bottom. Hold your head up high, with dignity and class for your journey has been unique to yourself.

My best
~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[WingsOnFire]

Hi Becca-
Thanks for taking the time to post about your relationship and experiences. Evolution is great between 2 people. Switching is cool. I have never been involved in a relationship where we switched. I think it would be hard for me to Top my Ms. Confusing for me. Now don't get me wrong I can reciprocate fucking her but I will never be topping her. Make sense? Has switching ever been a struggle in your D/g dynamic?

I am a dominant woman in my everyday life.. I am a Scorpio. So I have a dominant personality which allows me to be a switch. In submitting I release the stresses that life throws my way. I can not even begin to express what it means to me to be a submissive. I also cant express what it means to me to be Mistress to my submissive boy. When you are given control over someones life in that way it is an honor that I do not take lightly...

I can totally understand you not being able to top your Ms.... actually I am not sure I can imagine anyone topping her... maybe just my perception??? But that does not make you weak in ANY WAY... to me a submissive has to be strong as steal... with the control we give up we must have given complete trust to our Dominant.. there is nothing weak about that...

As to your question first my babygirl side and submissive side of my dynamic are totally separate. I am predominantly a submissive now when I was 100% babygirl when our relationship began... So I was making sure to clarify the answer to your question as it really doesnt pertain to my babygirl side as Daddy is ALWAYS present when I am in babygirl mode if you want to call it that...

As far as switching within my D/s relationship it can sometimes be difficult to switch within your own relationship but it is very rarely an issue... Having a dominant side allows me to express that side of myself yet express my submissive side which is as much a part of me as breathing is. I have had people tell me that they can switch but not with their partner... I can and have topped another submissive but I can understand how some can not imagine switching with their Dominant... Or might have a Dominant who is not a switch which of course would require having another submissive to top.

My primary role is submissive, Daddy/Sir's primary role is Dominant. So for me I have not really had any issues with switching within our relationship. He is always very conscious of my emotional state and realizes if I am capable of being Dominant or not.

Hope that makes sense... I am half asleep.. We took a nap this afternoon which has me up WAYYY past my bedtime.

Becca

[DamonK]

Not to confuse anyone here...

As MBE said, I am a Switch. However, being called "Damon" instantly brings out the dominance, the Daddy, the Sir, the asshole -- whatever you want to call me when I'm "him".

Therefore, to make it easier, if I'm in the boy headspace, and don't need to be yanked out of boyspace, I'm called "J". Yes there's an entire name with it, but... well I have to have a FEW secrets, yanno.

So, speaking as J for now...

Is it difficult at times? Hell yes.
Does it get confusing at times? Hell yes.
Overall, do I love being able to be both? Hell yes.
Have I thought of giving it up -- the switching? Hell yes.
Would I give it up? Hell no.

Why is this?

This is not the correct thread, but as some may know, I have bipolar. My moods experience ups and downs that I can't control. The meds help me.

For me, being a switch is the "med" for my dominance. I get stuck in topspace and drop into an almost-depression when I come down from topspace. The submission allows me to balance.

I can't dominate all the time. I can't submit all the time.

Do people look at us like we're nuts? Yeah fairly regularly.

Do the same rules apply for me? Yes. If, as a boy, I do something wrong, I get punished. I have assignments. I have things I'm supposed to do. I do my best to get everything done.

How do we keep the distinctions separate? Very, very carefully. I'm supposed to journal regularly in order to check in. I switch from Sir to boy for approximately an hour every couple of days to check in. If there is something planned that is a special treat that I would enjoy as a boy, I switch. For example, a trip to the zoo. Gotta see those tigers. Gotta GET one of those tigers but I keep getting told no.

Being a Switch is a compromise. I suppose you could think of it as having 2 relationships. We don't have any real "set" times that I'm dominant and she's submissive, or vice versa.

It depends on the day, the situation, and our surroundings.

J

[weatherboi]

i thank You humbly Toughy!!

i have had 1 or 1000 knuckle dragging moments in my life...as for the kink community i have never felt more at home or accepted anywhere...everyones D/s and M/s is different...from my knees view point i know i don't run anything







One day hanging with a bunch of butch folk over a beer and a pool table the conversation turned to Femme Tops and butch bottoms. Some of those Butch Top folk are doing the posturing, chest bumping, knuckle dragging crap about no self respecting butch would get fucked or beat............<big ole snort>

Well....being who I am........I kinda smiled and said....

I bottom to a Femme Top and have been for a few years now.

<dead silence>

....you fill in the blanks....

One of the things I love most about the kink community (in general) lives in the idea that kink and sexuality have nothing to do with gender.


weatherboi...........please oh please tell anyone who insults you about being a bottom to come talk to me.............please................laughin...... .....please............

One of the things I know is this........and I was reminded this by an old friend who I saw in a cafe the other day.......

bottoms run the fuck

[Massive]

Hi Massive and thank you for your participation.
I really respect that your space is so well rounded and that you so fiercely understand the struggle a trans/butch submissive/slave/bottom and their Femme Tops/Daddys encounter in this dynamic. When you were submitting/bottoming did you ever experience another butch (not in BDSM) disrespect your Ms? As a bottom have you ever noticed how there seems to be forming a pattern of submissives using a victim stance to leave/dismiss a relationship?

Thank you, and yes, I have to admit to having experienced that on both counts, both being dismissed and disrespected towards myself and my Ms, and to our faces too, and it came from people who had no understanding of the dynamic at all, butches who saw it as their role to be 'the man' (which is something I've always loathed, if they want that kind of role, surely we've surpassed that kind of blinkered approach to life in general) who couldn't see or were apparently disgusted by seeing me submitting to a femme, and yes I have seen submissives using the victim stance as an excuse and being extremely dismissive of a relationship which is exactly the same as their own, only it's a butch being submissive and not a femme, I don't like the hypocriticalness of that, it's pained me at times to see that kind of dismissiveness from another submissive, when surely it would be better for everyone to accept and draw strength from one anothers experiences and lives and not belittling others relationships.
I stand firm by my belief that if we are to get anywhere as a community, both in our own countries and globally, we need to work together and not attack one another.
We're never going to get equality if we've not got equality amongst ourselves ...

[waxnrope]

Thank you for the thread, weatherboi, and for all the deeply considered replies.

In my enigmatic fashion, I consider myself primarily an OFOS stone butch Top... yet I continue the process of tapping into the place/s of desire, curiosity, and the muddied waters of my actuality. Through fantasy and exploration, I discover, for myself, how my positioning (LOL) bends, so to speak. I "run the show" ... except when my partner's imagination exceeds my own and seduces me with prospects of tantalizing pleasures. But only (at this time ...) IF done in a way that she remains "feminine." So, for now (cause who knows how I will think later!) I have managed to leave the door open for possibilities.

If I borrow from the French philosophical concept of the navette, or shuttle, Metaphorically, I have come to realize that this little vessel, known as my self, sometimes takes off without a specific landing point. It/I might have a destination in mind, but the current, the winds, the vegetation on another shore draws attention. This direction change might occur because my femme sub has a marvelous bit of creative imagery and imagination. And so I alter my course, to investigate - with her. Hopefully for both to enjoy. I will remain primarily a Top ... but there is much space to explore between the mountain and the sea ... I love the vastness of possibilities.

[Sachita]

ok, :::::deep breath:::: I am at a crossroads in my life and having just turned 52 (lol- I know I don't look it!) I am fearless. Must be the gray hair!

I've thought about this a lot lately. A very brief synopsis is I began my femdom journey over 20 years ago. It was inspired by my spirituality... the many faces of the Goddess and feminine power. I refused to adopt societies feminine roles and ideals. I am a natural alpha femme. It's part of my essence. Sexuality was magic to me. When I first discovered BDSM my heart leaped. There was something there. I could feel it and that began a very long journey, many paths and ultimately living the lifestyle 24/7. My world was magnificent and animated. People would come to home and thought they walked into another world. I felt adored and worshiped but after a time i wanted more. I was attracted to butch energy, masculine and yet submissive. It was so hard to find the right dynamic and I often settled. In fact I stepped out of my femdom world completely and dated no one for maybe 4 years. When I decided to date I found BF and explored. I wasn't falling for this pseudo masculinity I saw in some butches. I see right through that shit. At the same time I was striving for some kind of balance. I had a few, very few relationships with transgendered people and struggled because I am naturally dominant and strong. They were constantly challenged by this and fought me tooth and nail. I grew sick of being called a dominatrix or mock me "Yes Goddess" every time i stood up or had an opinion.

My best day is to wake up, have coffee served, feel loved and truly adored. When one truly does exist to please me. It's not my ego it's my essence and it can't be just anyone looking to appease me. The dynamic is only presence when one thrives on serving me. I project, they receive and together we make magic. They long to relinquish control, it completes them and I long to feed on what they give me. It is the ultimate act of strength to step outside consensus morality and relinquish control to a powerful woman. It is an enhancement to your identity and not what most people think- a downgrade.

It's impossible for one that is not born to this world to understand how erotic and healing constructive humiliation is. They don't realize the responsibility that goes with mind fuckery and taking such an uncharted journey with another human being. Most have never soared that high or dove so deeply into darkness where the ultimate transformations take place.

It's complex, what I desire and the truth is I've settled. I thought I could have a strong butch, enjoy the whole old fashion BF dynamic and still be a spoiled princess but I'm sick and fucking tired of being misunderstood because I won't settle and because i want things. I'm sick and fucking tired of not having my needs met and then told I'm fucked up because of who I am. Tired of being so misunderstood.

Maybe two years ago a friend, naturally submissive boi came to visit. There wasn't anything feminine about him at all. Just being in protocol, enjoying the natural dynamic between us was unreal. The sexual chemistry was fueled by things most would never understand. I was still busy trying to mend a broken heart and I also knew my submissive friend, although a hot roll, would be consumed by my desire and too immature to meet my needs long term.... we fucked, we played, we soared and he left.

Nothing comes close to this. Still I'm undecided because even when I encounter a submissive boi he must be strong in character, intelligent, sturdy and sane. Thus far I encountered a lot of serious emotional baggage or because of my experience curious hook-ups. I am not a weekend warrior... I'm intense and I must prepare you & me for the journey. A little whippy spanky does nothing for me. I just havent found the right connection.

So weatherboi I understand where you are coming from and your desire to honor the divine feminine this way. Nothing teaches you or evolves your masculinity more then this IMO. There are women that "fit" this naturally and if you tap into that, find her, then you are a very lucky boi. Don't give a shit about what others think. Chances are they will not understand. You make change by example.

[Sachita]

I can totally relate to this subject... I am a Switch. I began my relationship with my Daddy as his babygirl.. We evolved into a D/s D/g relationship.

My Daddy is an FTM and is also a Switch. We both have a dominant and a submissive side. He is predominantly my Daddy/Sir, I am his babygirl/submissive. But I am also Mistress to his submissive boy side.

I have had to watch my lesbian friends look of disgust when I explain why I call my partner "he". Add to that trying to explain D/s roles I very rarely will explain I also have a submissive boy... I refuse to subject him to anyone who will put him down or make him feel bad. Of course I also live in the bible belt.

If my friends judge my relationship ANY PART of my relationship I let them fade into my past as I don't have time for people like that. My boy is very special to me and I will protect him with my life... Just as Daddy protects his babygirl with his life. My two best (straight) friends know about my submissive boy and I know they will always be respectful toward my relationship.

I have not discussed this openly much because being a Switch is often looked up negatively as well.

I really am happy to see the positiveness this community is showing on Butch Femme Planet. I am pleased that Daddy and I have joined this site... And I am very glad you started this thread weatherboi.. I am so glad you felt secure enough to discuss how you feel and how others have made you feel when they are disrespectful to your Ms.

I look forward to reading further comments on this subject.

Becca

I think this is so cool and so sexually/spiritually evolved. Understanding the aspects of yourself, defining them, giving them complete identities and compartments within yourself. Then finding one who loves you, trust, etc that supports allowing that "person" to emerge, play/explore and realize its just one aspect of you.

I think for me I need one who is naturally submissive most of the time, however I am also ok with hym/her developing other aspects when the need arrives.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Weatherboi,

First of all this is a great thread! Good for you. You are brave for posting this. My hat is off to you.

Secondly, do not let anyone belittle you at all. Sheesh.

If they do, you just say it to me, and I will straighten them right out. Another jackass as I see it. You hold your head high.

Lastly, whomever is your partner/spouse go have fun! Go live life! It is so short. So have fun no matter what!

[Sachita]

D once said to me, "Ma'am, I am the butch of your dreams and the bottom of your fantasies." Hy was both and wonderful.




OMG that would melt me. I got goose bumps just reading it.

[Sachita]

. Now don't get me wrong I can reciprocate fucking her but I will never be topping her. Make sense? Has switching ever been a struggle in your D/g dynamic?

Do me, this way NOW! lol- yes I understand. You exist to please her at any capacity. Perfect sense.

[Spirit Dancer]

weatherboi
What a wonderful idea for a thread and topic to enlighten, such wonderful responses thus far. In my journey I currently am femme top, who has always had an Alpha Energy and learned that while trying to be a submissive to a wonderful Syr. He taught me many lesson during the time we shared. The most important one never let anyone take away who you are, the gift of energy that you and your MS share is an amazing soul dance of reflective energy, those who don't understand, judge or belittle that energetic dance simply are missing a beautiful soul connection.
In my life I've walked away from friendships that judged me, now although I'm an Alpha Femme and Top, my relationship now is with my Syr. Do I submit to Hym yes in everyway but that is how we started our Soul Energy and I evolved into what was already in me. Our relationship now is Hy is still my Syr, and allows my Alpha Energy into our relationship. Hy isn't a switch, but with Syr, I guess I'm the switch. Together we nourish each other and the energy we share. It can be complex, but that's for another thread.

[WingsOnFire]

Do me, this way NOW! lol- yes I understand. You exist to please her at any capacity. Perfect sense.

Oh yes... the fact that a submissive may participate in the act of intercourse does not in any way change the roles they play in their relationship.... it just expresses the fact that the submissive strives to please his/her Mistress and does exactly as he/her is told. yummy...

[DamonK]

Oh yes... the fact that a submissive may participate in the act of intercourse does not in any way change the roles they play in their relationship.... it just expresses the fact that the submissive strives to please his/her Mistress and does exactly as he/her is told. yummy...

You wouldn't know anything about this, would you?

J

[adorable]

Thanks for starting this thread weatherboi. I started to post yesterday and stopped. I try to stay out of ID type threads due to the level of nastiness that normally results from them. Who we all are is complicated. There is nothing wrong with being just who you are and how you are - even if it makes sense only to you. What I have seen is that people are quick to say "YOU can't be that way because that doesn't work in MY head." lol. As if, how I am somehow makes them something else. Or the way that it works in my head means that I am trying to somehow negate how they feel even though I am talking about what works for ME. MY TRUTH. It doesn't belong to anyone else. I love it though when people say "No, you are wrong." Really? Why? What makes them right? Apparently, they think so - that makes it true.

Those things that are hot for us, our kinks and perversions are very personal and I think, they should be celebrated. I do now consider myself a submissive - that acknowledgement and understanding seemed to take FOREVER for me. I did consider it weak - although I wanted the exact same things as I do now, I called it something else before - anything but submissive. It was hard for me to understand the power exchange and the powerful stance of submitting. That I wasn't submitting to someone who was better then me somehow - that is where my head took it. (My ego hates that line of thinking.) I am a strong personality. I run things for a living. I had a million things that I thought meant that I was not a submissive or would make a horrible submissive. lol. I asked a ton of questions, I read a lot, I talked to other submissives and dom(me)s. Now I GET IT. Finally. And some people may still not consider me to be a submissive. What matters to me is that I do (and -->HE does. lol) I don't need the world to get it.

Submissive - the word - has the perception of weakness associated with it by society. Dominance is rewarded. Being on the bottom, we have been taught, doesn't seem quite so successful as being on the top of - well anything. What I wanted was to be submissive without the negative societal implications that I was somehow weaker for it.

I bottom ONLY to masculine male IDs and I top ONLY to feminine female IDs. It is very specific and about extremes for me. And it's not enough for them to have the right ID, they have to have the right look, attitude and level of disturbed-ness that works for me too. Now that may seem outwardly to be straightforward misogyny. It's not that I see male as more powerful and women as weaker in day to day life - but how I want to fuck and be fucked has very little with day to day life. It does have everything to do with perversion, my idea of hotness, a fucked up childhood and the twisted way that my mind works. Some people get off on the opposite, or something in between or riding a life size my little pony around the house. Somethings work and somethings just don't for each of us.

I think we can all agree though that having a life size my little pony is hot.

Society in general accepts my outward appearance more readily than others, in the same way that people just "get" (even though they have no idea about the REAL reason for why) that I want to be topped by a male ID. They don't question my desire for that in the same way they would you for wanting to be topped by a femme. I've heard people say a real butch doesn't_____ !! (Just fill in anything like a mad lib - just about every verb works.) Hearing that shit is like nails on a chalkboard for me. Like some people refer to their partner as "my old lady." Ugh. Welcome to 2010 folks....

There is so much more I'd like to say but now it would head off into the butch femme thing for me - which NEVER EVER works - so I will stop. Great thread!

[Chancie]

I am so lucky to be blessed with my boy, my beautiful handsome Pete. :stillheart:

[WingsOnFire]

I think this is so cool and so sexually/spiritually evolved. Understanding the aspects of yourself, defining them, giving them complete identities and compartments within yourself. Then finding one who loves you, trust, etc that supports allowing that "person" to emerge, play/explore and realize its just one aspect of you.

I think for me I need one who is naturally submissive most of the time, however I am also ok with hym/her developing other aspects when the need arrives.

{{{{Sachita}}}} Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, your emotions, your desires. You definitely do not need to settle for less than what you need and desire. It will not make you happy.

It is so interesting that in our relationship I fit the role of the submissive you describe... yet I feel COMPLETELY in control when I am Mistress. It is wonderful that you are able and willing to allow your submissive to develop other aspects of themselves should they desire to do so... That is exactly how my Daddy became my Daddy and now my Sir...

To suppress a persons needs and desires to mold to your own needs and desires is to stifle that persons emotional growth. I know first hand the beauty of allowing a person to be exactly who they are. I am glad you have stood up for yourself and not settled for less than who you are.

Becca

[Toughy]

your welcome weatherboi

Let me explain what I mean by 'the bottom runs the fuck'. In the kink world we negotiate what is going to happen. Boundaries are set about what is and is not acceptable for the bottom/sub and the Top/Dom/Domme. The bottom sets her/hys/his boundaries and the Top is obliged to respect them. The bottom gets a safeword. That safeword can end the scene. The power to end the scene is in the hands of the bottom....the bottom runs the fuck in that sense. (Yes as a Top I have ended scenes because I thought the bottom was not capable because of the headsapce she/he was in.)

The above staterment is a generality. Yes, there are D/s M/s relationships that have negotiated no safe word. The key here is in the negotiation part. All the M/s D/s relationships I know of also have a set time to sit down and renegotiate the contract. Again power is in the hands of the bottom.

Once all that is done........well then the Top takes over and runs the scene/fuck.

Hope that makes sense and clarifies what I mean.

edited to add: I am mystified, sometimes, at how some folks just don't want to see the power inherent in being a bottom/sub.....

[weatherboi]

great post thanks!

Thank you for the thread, weatherboi, and for all the deeply considered replies.
Thanks waxnrope for your valued input. I look forward to hearing more from you.

In my enigmatic fashion, I consider myself primarily an OFOS stone butch Top... yet I continue the process of tapping into the place/s of desire, curiosity, and the muddied waters of my actuality. Through fantasy and exploration, I discover, for myself, how my positioning (LOL) bends, so to speak.
I get it, no pun intended. Funny. For me it came down to total reality. I was looking to be owned, so before throwing myself into the waters I had to spend some time evaluating what was going to work for me. I am not privy to choosing positions.

I "run the show" ... except when my partner's imagination exceeds my own and seduces me with prospects of tantalizing pleasures. But only (at this time ...) IF done in a way that she remains "feminine." So, for now (cause who knows how I will think later!) I have managed to leave the door open for possibilities.

i am ok with not running the show. i know the show will be exactly what my Ms decides i need. now i am ok with my Ms and her masculine energy. it is not like she dresses like buck from the united states of tara or she touches me in some feminizing way...it is energy.

If I borrow from the French philosophical concept of the navette, or shuttle, Metaphorically, I have come to realize that this little vessel, known as my self, sometimes takes off without a specific landing point. It/I might have a destination in mind, but the current, the winds, the vegetation on another shore draws attention. This direction change might occur because my femme sub has a marvelous bit of creative imagery and imagination. And so I alter my course, to investigate - with her. Hopefully for both to enjoy. I will remain primarily a Top ... but there is much space to explore between the mountain and the sea ... I love the vastness of possibilities.

[Liam]

Perhaps you could clarify something for me, I'm confused about the derision you experience. Are the guilty parties primarily outside of the leather/bdsm community? Or have things changed? I had to serve as a bottom, before I could call myself a top, a practice which made sound sense to me, one of the many reasons being, to impress upon me, that a bottom is never less than.

[weatherboi]

This post was very nice. You seem like you would be a kind femdom.



ok, :::::deep breath:::: I am at a crossroads in my life and having just turned 52 (lol- I know I don't look it!) I am fearless. Must be the gray hair!

I've thought about this a lot lately. A very brief synopsis is I began my femdom journey over 20 years ago. It was inspired by my spirituality... the many faces of the Goddess and feminine power. I refused to adopt societies feminine roles and ideals. I am a natural alpha femme. It's part of my essence. Sexuality was magic to me. When I first discovered BDSM my heart leaped. There was something there. I could feel it and that began a very long journey, many paths and ultimately living the lifestyle 24/7. My world was magnificent and animated. People would come to home and thought they walked into another world. I felt adored and worshiped but after a time i wanted more. I was attracted to butch energy, masculine and yet submissive. It was so hard to find the right dynamic and I often settled. In fact I stepped out of my femdom world completely and dated no one for maybe 4 years. When I decided to date I found BF and explored. I wasn't falling for this pseudo masculinity I saw in some butches. I see right through that shit. At the same time I was striving for some kind of balance. I had a few, very few relationships with transgendered people and struggled because I am naturally dominant and strong. They were constantly challenged by this and fought me tooth and nail. I grew sick of being called a dominatrix or mock me "Yes Goddess" every time i stood up or had an opinion.

this seems to be a common frustrating denominator amoungst many Femme Masters/Dommes/Slaves. I think talking about it is good.

My best day is to wake up, have coffee served, feel loved and truly adored. When one truly does exist to please me. It's not my ego it's my essence and it can't be just anyone looking to appease me. The dynamic is only presence when one thrives on serving me. I project, they receive and together we make magic. They long to relinquish control, it completes them and I long to feed on what they give me. It is the ultimate act of strength to step outside consensus morality and relinquish control to a powerful woman. It is an enhancement to your identity and not what most people think- a downgrade.

It's impossible for one that is not born to this world to understand how erotic and healing constructive humiliation is. They don't realize the responsibility that goes with mind fuckery and taking such an uncharted journey with another human being. Most have never soared that high or dove so deeply into darkness where the ultimate transformations take place.

It's complex, what I desire and the truth is I've settled. I thought I could have a strong butch, enjoy the whole old fashion BF dynamic and still be a spoiled princess but I'm sick and fucking tired of being misunderstood because I won't settle and because i want things. I'm sick and fucking tired of not having my needs met and then told I'm fucked up because of who I am. Tired of being so misunderstood.

Maybe two years ago a friend, naturally submissive boi came to visit. There wasn't anything feminine about him at all. Just being in protocol, enjoying the natural dynamic between us was unreal. The sexual chemistry was fueled by things most would never understand. I was still busy trying to mend a broken heart and I also knew my submissive friend, although a hot roll, would be consumed by my desire and too immature to meet my needs long term.... we fucked, we played, we soared and he left.

Nothing comes close to this. Still I'm undecided because even when I encounter a submissive boi he must be strong in character, intelligent, sturdy and sane. Thus far I encountered a lot of serious emotional baggage or because of my experience curious hook-ups. I am not a weekend warrior... I'm intense and I must prepare you & me for the journey. A little whippy spanky does nothing for me. I just havent found the right connection.

So weatherboi I understand where you are coming from and your desire to honor the divine feminine this way. Nothing teaches you or evolves your masculinity more then this IMO. There are women that "fit" this naturally and if you tap into that, find her, then you are a very lucky boi. Don't give a shit about what others think. Chances are they will not understand. You make change by example.

[weatherboi]

Thanks Andrew for your input. Now I will give some to you.


Weatherboi,

First of all this is a great thread! Good for you. You are brave for posting this. My hat is off to you.

Secondly, do not let anyone belittle you at all. Sheesh.

i don't let people belittle me, not even if i find it coming in a passive aggressive manner.

If they do, you just say it to me, and I will straighten them right out. Another jackass as I see it. You hold your head high.

thanks but i have been fighting my own battles for 40 years and will continue to do so on my own with my head always held high. self reflection has worked wonders for me and i will now advise the same you Andrew...self reflection!

Lastly, whomever is your partner/spouse go have fun! Go live life! It is so short. So have fun no matter what!

Andrew it is very disconcerning to me to read this...i know you know i am with Snow...i find it dismissive to my Ms/Domme/Femme, and myself that you would come up in here with this post. I am not quite sure what has been done to you to behave this way but i feel we need to take it to the red zone



Andrew i am owned and loved by The_Lady_Snow and honestly my days and nights are longer are longer now. Laughter is always present.

[weatherboi]

hi adorable-
thanks for putting forth such effort! great post!


Thanks for starting this thread weatherboi. I started to post yesterday and stopped. I try to stay out of ID type threads due to the level of nastiness that normally results from them. Who we all are is complicated. There is nothing wrong with being just who you are and how you are - even if it makes sense only to you. What I have seen is that people are quick to say "YOU can't be that way because that doesn't work in MY head." lol. As if, how I am somehow makes them something else. Or the way that it works in my head means that I am trying to somehow negate how they feel even though I am talking about what works for ME. MY TRUTH. It doesn't belong to anyone else. I love it though when people say "No, you are wrong." Really? Why? What makes them right? Apparently, they think so - that makes it true.

i get this and see it in most aspects of my life being trans

Those things that are hot for us, our kinks and perversions are very personal and I think, they should be celebrated. I do now consider myself a submissive - that acknowledgement and understanding seemed to take FOREVER for me. I did consider it weak - although I wanted the exact same things as I do now, I called it something else before - anything but submissive. It was hard for me to understand the power exchange and the powerful stance of submitting. That I wasn't submitting to someone who was better then me somehow - that is where my head took it. (My ego hates that line of thinking.) I am a strong personality. I run things for a living. I had a million things that I thought meant that I was not a submissive or would make a horrible submissive. lol. I asked a ton of questions, I read a lot, I talked to other submissives and dom(me)s. Now I GET IT. Finally. And some people may still not consider me to be a submissive. What matters to me is that I do (and -->HE does. lol) I don't need the world to get it.

i could see where ego could get in the way of submitting...i know if my Ms sniffs out any cockiness or ego stuff that is getting in the way of my service she speaks to me about it

Submissive - the word - has the perception of weakness associated with it by society. Dominance is rewarded. Being on the bottom, we have been taught, doesn't seem quite so successful as being on the top of - well anything. What I wanted was to be submissive without the negative societal implications that I was somehow weaker for it.

I bottom ONLY to masculine male IDs and I top ONLY to feminine female IDs. It is very specific and about extremes for me. And it's not enough for them to have the right ID, they have to have the right look, attitude and level of disturbed-ness that works for me too. Now that may seem outwardly to be straightforward misogyny. It's not that I see male as more powerful and women as weaker in day to day life - but how I want to fuck and be fucked has very little with day to day life. It does have everything to do with perversion, my idea of hotness, a fucked up childhood and the twisted way that my mind works. Some people get off on the opposite, or something in between or riding a life size my little pony around the house. Somethings work and somethings just don't for each of us.
yeah i get it the whole raw dirty rough painful aspect of play/sex and that we all have our kink. i however cant view my Ms or any woman as weak in any aspect of my life, because this kink life i live touches me to some degree 24/7

I think we can all agree though that having a life size my little pony is hot.
how about hello kitty?

Society in general accepts my outward appearance more readily than others, in the same way that people just "get" (even though they have no idea about the REAL reason for why) that I want to be topped by a male ID. They don't question my desire for that in the same way they would you for wanting to be topped by a femme. I've heard people say a real butch doesn't_____ !! (Just fill in anything like a mad lib - just about every verb works.) Hearing that shit is like nails on a chalkboard for me. Like some people refer to their partner as "my old lady." Ugh. Welcome to 2010 folks....

There is so much more I'd like to say but now it would head off into the butch femme thing for me - which NEVER EVER works - so I will stop. Great thread!

maybe you should open a thread to discuss the topic you are halting on...it may be a good thing.

[Rope]

Bottoms run the fuck? I believe bottoms run the fuck in s/m scenes where it's all about them and all about sensation---they pull out the "No" that shuts a scene down. Or they safeword because it's too much, too intense, too owie, too whatever.

These are scenes about the bottoms sensation and pleasure of masochism NOT about an energy exchange based on a giving over, and submitting, or a willingness to serve.

M/s and D/s relationship do involve negotiations to BUILD TRUST--then yes, it is all about the Top (or me). I view a new slave or subs safeword as a guide for me to know where their tolerance is or the things that get them "there" faster, but I don't think, oh I should never use that or never go "there". I go where I want to go, and I know a sub or slave wants me to do that too. A slave or subs "safeword" is more of a way to inform and not necessarily stop their Master/Mistress or Dominant. These kinds of s/m and play relationships are based on relating--not solely sensation play.

So many put my M/s relationships down--you don't really RUN THE FUCK, your slave could stop that at any time, well, you're still in a butch/femme relationship, we know who really runs the show----shut the fuck up, you don't really know what the dynamic is especially when you don't LIVE IT but rather read about it and philosphize about it, and can't even stay awake in a workshop about it.

And as to all this--femme Top with butch bottom, or butch Top playing w/ butch bois or butch on femme, or butch Top with femme bottom.....geeesus, there's room for all. Put downs, leave 'em at the door. Just cuz it ain't your kink, leave it alone. We get put down enough by society at large, why can't we let our own live and let live?

People too stupid to see the power of a great slave, sub, girl/boi--to hell with them. I want power house slaves and subs in my life--butch or femme.

Rope--

p.s. weatherboi---you sooooooooo know you're welcome in my home anytime and I won't embarass you here raving about your great service. But it's the little touches---to turn a wine bottle <g>. your service is a tribute to your Ma'am.

[Sachita]

Bottoms run the fuck? I believe bottoms run the fuck in s/m scenes where it's all about them and all about sensation---they pull out the "No" that shuts a scene down. Or they safeword because it's too much, too intense, too owie, too whatever.

These are scenes about the bottoms sensation and pleasure of masochism NOT about an energy exchange based on a giving over, and submitting, or a willingness to serve.

M/s and D/s relationship do involve negotiations to BUILD TRUST--then yes, it is all about the Top (or me). I view a new slave or subs safeword as a guide for me to know where their tolerance is or the things that get them "there" faster, but I don't think, oh I should never use that or never go "there". I go where I want to go, and I know a sub or slave wants me to do that too. A slave or subs "safeword" is more of a way to inform and not necessarily stop their Master/Mistress or Dominant. These kinds of s/m and play relationships are based on relating--not solely sensation play.

So many put my M/s relationships down--you don't really RUN THE FUCK, your slave could stop that at any time, well, you're still in a butch/femme relationship, we know who really runs the show----shut the fuck up, you don't really know what the dynamic is especially when you don't LIVE IT but rather read about it and philosphize about it, and can't even stay awake in a workshop about it.

And as to all this--femme Top with butch bottom, or butch Top playing w/ butch bois or butch on femme, or butch Top with femme bottom.....geeesus, there's room for all. Put downs, leave 'em at the door. Just cuz it ain't your kink, leave it alone. We get put down enough by society at large, why can't we let our own live and let live?

People too stupid to see the power of a great slave, sub, girl/boi--to hell with them. I want power house slaves and subs in my life--butch or femme.

Rope--

p.s. weatherboi---you sooooooooo know you're welcome in my home anytime and I won't embarass you here raving about your great service. But it's the little touches---to turn a wine bottle <g>. your service is a tribute to your Ma'am.

Thank you so much for this reply. I use safe words, as you said to understand tolerance but the moment it's use as an act of control I point to the door.

[Isadora]

Perhaps you could clarify something for me, I'm confused about the derision you experience. Are the guilty parties primarily outside of the leather/bdsm community? Or have things changed? I had to serve as a bottom, before I could call myself a top, a practice which made sound sense to me, one of the many reasons being, to impress upon me, that a bottom is never less than.

It has been my experience that TNG is more fluid in their expression of their leather/kink identities and how they flow back and forth is no less leather than those whose role is set. I think things have changed, as all things flow between new ideas/lives and "traditions". However, I think that I have heard way too many Tops/Doms who have never bottomed be less then respectful to the bottom dynamic in other butches. It has occurred to me that serving also is a lesson in appreciation, but it is also not a necessarily stepping stone to top. While some bois are switchy, some are not. I agree, Liam, I can almost always tell the different perspective when you have experienced serving.

Since I love age play with bois, it becomes even more edgy to be a bottom boi. Not only are women "less then sexual" as Momma, the boi is pushed and misunderstood in hys boi self. The Momma/boi dynamic is deeply intimate and even more marginalized from the larger D/s, Daddy/boi/girl community. There is nothing that brings out the Momma Bear in me then fucking with my boi's 12 year old self. Respect the bottom who consents with complete understanding to the life we agree upon (as Toughy says negotiation and communication are paramount) especially when playing psychologically with age dynamics and sexuality.

One of the other things that always bothers me is that a lot of the butch Tops I know would be horrified and angry if someone approached their femme bottom with propositions, nasty comments, corrections and derision. Yet, it has happened to everyone of my bois. It is sad that being a boi somehow you have to "butch it up" and that telling me about hys experience is "tattle-telling" not being transparent to hys Top. The double standard floors me...but as we continue to realize that misogyny has deep and tangled roots, we recognize and hopefully change our behavior to be most respectful of all relationships.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Weatherboi,

I did not know you were with Lady Snow. This is news to me. Nobody said so much as boo to me.

Andrew

[weatherboi]

*on my knees head down*

Sir Rope-
Your words ring true to my leather heart and feelings. i thank You for taking Your time and Your knowledge to address this thread.



Bottoms run the fuck? I believe bottoms run the fuck in s/m scenes where it's all about them and all about sensation---they pull out the "No" that shuts a scene down. Or they safeword because it's too much, too intense, too owie, too whatever.

Sir i really acknowledge what You say here and understand Your point. Since i have not been Privy to this particualar situation, i am wondering if, for me only, even then my Ms still runs the fuck because i realize i am her property and know she is gonna be the negotiator of the scene and she is gonna be privy to ending it as well. make sense Sir?

These are scenes about the bottoms sensation and pleasure of masochism NOT about an energy exchange based on a giving over, and submitting, or a willingness to serve.

i totally understand and agree with You Sir!

M/s and D/s relationship do involve negotiations to BUILD TRUST--then yes, it is all about the Top (or me). I view a new slave or subs safeword as a guide for me to know where their tolerance is or the things that get them "there" faster, but I don't think, oh I should never use that or never go "there". I go where I want to go, and I know a sub or slave wants me to do that too. A slave or subs "safeword" is more of a way to inform and not necessarily stop their Master/Mistress or Dominant. These kinds of s/m and play relationships are based on relating--not solely sensation play.

Sir this really describes my understanding of my relationship with my Ms. This is how i understand who runs the fuck in my relationship.

So many put my M/s relationships down--you don't really RUN THE FUCK, your slave could stop that at any time, well, you're still in a butch/femme relationship, we know who really runs the show----shut the fuck up, you don't really know what the dynamic is especially when you don't LIVE IT but rather read about it and philosphize about it, and can't even stay awake in a workshop about it.
yes Sir


And as to all this--femme Top with butch bottom, or butch Top playing w/ butch bois or butch on femme, or butch Top with femme bottom.....geeesus, there's room for all. Put downs, leave 'em at the door. Just cuz it ain't your kink, leave it alone. We get put down enough by society at large, why can't we let our own live and let live?


People too stupid to see the power of a great slave, sub, girl/boi--to hell with them. I want power house slaves and subs in my life--butch or femme.

Sir once again Your thoughts describe my understanding of my Ms and her desires for my service and for me. i humbly realize that it is up to me to be the best slave for my Ms and the best leatherboy for my Ms and Our community.

Rope--

p.s. weatherboi---you sooooooooo know you're welcome in my home anytime and I won't embarass you here raving about your great service. But it's the little touches---to turn a wine bottle <g>. your service is a tribute to your Ma'am.

*lump in throat*
Sir-
it was my priviledge and honor to be invited to Your home
Your words are carved into my leather soul and will help me see clear, so that i may always strive to give better service to my Ms and anybody else she has me serve.

[Liam]

It has been my experience that TNG is more fluid in their expression of their leather/kink identities and how they flow back and forth is no less leather than those whose role is set. I think things have changed, as all things flow between new ideas/lives and "traditions". However, I think that I have heard way too many Tops/Doms who have never bottomed be less then respectful to the bottom dynamic in other butches. It has occurred to me that serving also is a lesson in appreciation, but it is also not a necessarily stepping stone to top. While some bois are switchy, some are not. I agree, Liam, I can almost always tell the different perspective when you have experienced serving.

Since I love age play with bois, it becomes even more edgy to be a bottom boi. Not only are women "less then sexual" as Momma, the boi is pushed and misunderstood in hys boi self. The Momma/boi dynamic is deeply intimate and even more marginalized from the larger D/s, Daddy/boi/girl community. There is nothing that brings out the Momma Bear in me then fucking with my boi's 12 year old self. Respect the bottom who consents with complete understanding to the life we agree upon (as Toughy says negotiation and communication are paramount) especially when playing psychologically with age dynamics and sexuality.

One of the other things that always bothers me is that a lot of the butch Tops I know would be horrified and angry if someone approached their femme bottom with propositions, nasty comments, corrections and derision. Yet, it has happened to everyone of my bois. It is sad that being a boi somehow you have to "butch it up" and that telling me about hys experience is "tattle-telling" not being transparent to hys Top. The double standard floors me...but as we continue to realize that misogyny has deep and tangled roots, we recognize and hopefully change our behavior to be most respectful of all relationships.

Thank you for the kindness and courtesy of your reply, Isa. This also explains some interactions/observations I have had, that made me twitch.

[weatherboi]

:) i will thank you in advance for your thoughts and time Toughy


your welcome weatherboi

Let me explain what I mean by 'the bottom runs the fuck'. In the kink world we negotiate what is going to happen. Boundaries are set about what is and is not acceptable for the bottom/sub and the Top/Dom/Domme. The bottom sets her/hys/his boundaries and the Top is obliged to respect them. The bottom gets a safeword. That safeword can end the scene. The power to end the scene is in the hands of the bottom....the bottom runs the fuck in that sense. (Yes as a Top I have ended scenes because I thought the bottom was not capable because of the headsapce she/he was in.)

i have a safe word Toughy...my Ms had me well prepared before we ever met to play. i do have boundaries, and some i have not even discovered yet so we are constantly renegotiating these terms...she is kind this way.

my safe word is merely a tool to for Us to explore Our boundaries...in our S/m dynamic i am just flesh for Her to use...if i cannot give my flesh to her she has the power to go find it elsewhere

The above staterment is a generality. Yes, there are D/s M/s relationships that have negotiated no safe word. The key here is in the negotiation part. All the M/s D/s relationships I know of also have a set time to sit down and renegotiate the contract. Again power is in the hands of the bottom.

Once all that is done........well then the Top takes over and runs the scene/fuck.

Hope that makes sense and clarifies what I mean.
it makes sense that your D/s M/s runs this way but my D/s M/s runs differently and my Ms decides that. :)

edited to add: I am mystified, sometimes, at how some folks just don't want to see the power inherent in being a bottom/sub.....
i embrace my power to make me better in my service not to give me power over my Ms or my dynamic...for me it goes against the entire exchange for me to think this way.

[DamonK]

Respectfully, I entirely agree with Isadora's post, particularly the part about the intimacy of Momma/boi or Mommy/boy or whatever you wish to call that dynamic.

I've been known to drop deeper into subspace. Typically, as J, I'm around 18 years old. That's my age range in that headspace. However, if I drop lower, I'm around 6. That's when Mommy/boy enters. For us, meaning MBE and myself, Mommy/boy isn't sexual. It isn't age play really. It's simply a boy so deep in subspace he needs to be watched over, protected. And Mommy does that. I suppose it could be considered similar to the playfulness of D/g. In that deep of a headspace, Mommy is a safe place to go, a place where love is unconditional, basic needs are secured, a place to feel safe from the rest of the world with Monkey.

Yes, I have a stuffed Monkey named George. And yes, he's Curious George.

However, I call him Monkey.

I wouldn't change this aspect either. As MBE has a babygirl side and a submissive side, I have a babyboy side and a submissive side.

J

[weatherboi]

hi Liam-
the *derision* i experinece is not within my leather community. it is specific to the butch femme community.

with permission from my Ms i will share an experience with you. i was lucky enough to get to escort her to a butch femme event not to long ago. previous to arriving the Ms understood my excitement for this would be my first butch femme event. i was particularly excited about meeting specific people. upon arrival of the event i was introduced to a butch friend of hers that i genuinely looked forward to meeting. he was very dismissive and as the night went on he was even more disrespectful. when my Ms discussed it with me later we understood together it was an experience that stems from him seeing me as less. i mean do you really think he would have acted this way with a trans that was a Dom or Top?? so in essence not only did his behavior dis me but it dissed my Ms in a misogynistic way...why??
because i would bet he would never treat a butch friend and his girl that way. i felt more bad for my Ms honestly!!



Perhaps you could clarify something for me, I'm confused about the derision you experience. Are the guilty parties primarily outside of the leather/bdsm community? Or have things changed? I had to serve as a bottom, before I could call myself a top, a practice which made sound sense to me, one of the many reasons being, to impress upon me, that a bottom is never less than.

[SuperFemme]

I wonder if it is really common for subs/bois to meet people that know their Dom/Top and suddenly this person you've never met is acting like you are there to service them? Like you are a community sub or something. I've seen it in action and I have been horrified every time. The only one with an excuse was the 17 year old who has NO clue about life, and she was quickly schooled.

But is that common? If so how do you deal with it?

[Martina]

I wonder if it is really common for subs/bois to meet people that know their Dom/Top and suddenly this person you've never met is acting like you are there to service them? Like you are a community sub or something. I've seen it in action and I have been horrified every time. The only one with an excuse was the 17 year old who has NO clue about life, and she was quickly schooled.

But is that common? If so how do you deal with it?

It's not common. i have seen it happen too. But, no, i don't think it's common. People will hold back from interacting with others' subs in leather contexts, but you can show warmth and kindness and stay in leather protocols -- without any problem. The thing i like about leather is that other people's comfort comes before protocol. If someone is new or visiting, one is not supposed to make them feel uncomfortable if they make mistakes. i like that.

[WingsOnFire]

It has been my experience that TNG is more fluid in their expression of their leather/kink identities and how they flow back and forth is no less leather than those whose role is set. I think things have changed, as all things flow between new ideas/lives and "traditions". However, I think that I have heard way too many Tops/Doms who have never bottomed be less then respectful to the bottom dynamic in other butches. It has occurred to me that serving also is a lesson in appreciation, but it is also not a necessarily stepping stone to top. While some bois are switchy, some are not. I agree, Liam, I can almost always tell the different perspective when you have experienced serving.

Since I love age play with bois, it becomes even more edgy to be a bottom boi. Not only are women "less then sexual" as Momma, the boi is pushed and misunderstood in hys boi self. The Momma/boi dynamic is deeply intimate and even more marginalized from the larger D/s, Daddy/boi/girl community. There is nothing that brings out the Momma Bear in me then fucking with my boi's 12 year old self. Respect the bottom who consents with complete understanding to the life we agree upon (as Toughy says negotiation and communication are paramount) especially when playing psychologically with age dynamics and sexuality.

This is very much true Isadora...Mommy/boy(i) is something I have seen far more taboo in any site I have been on. It is sad that people dont always respect the bottom for what they consent to in their relationship. The negotiation is between the bottom and their top. No one else has the right to judge that but unfortunately some people feel they do... This Momma Bear watches over and protects her boy fiercely. I love that he trusts me to let him be the little boy when he wants to be in that space and knows that I will keep him safe just as Daddy keeps my babygirl safe. I dont care what others think of me as Mommy... I care what my boy thinks of me as Mommy... If hes happy then I am happy..


One of the other things that always bothers me is that a lot of the butch Tops I know would be horrified and angry if someone approached their femme bottom with propositions, nasty comments, corrections and derision. Yet, it has happened to everyone of my bois. It is sad that being a boi somehow you have to "butch it up" and that telling me about hys experience is "tattle-telling" not being transparent to hys Top. The double standard floors me...but as we continue to realize that misogyny has deep and tangled roots, we recognize and hopefully change our behavior to be most respectful of all relationships.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with this statement... I have seen some pretty hard hurtful comments made about many types of relationships... It would be nice to see some of that attitude changed to allow everyone the right to be who "they" want to be.

I have really enjoyed reading your comments and insight into this subject. Thanks!

Becca

[Massive]

i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas. :explode:

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.

I've been thinking about this tonight, and yes, rav is My little one and babygirl, so it's partly, but not all of the reason I chose to reply to those two posts at this point, but in My experiences over the years, I too have seen the denigration of femme slaves/subs/bottoms as well as trans/butch Tops And Femme/Female Tops as often as I've seen the dismissiveness towards myself as a butch-bottom and other trans/butch-bottoms/subs. (repeating Myself again I know, but I think this does need to be repeated)
Yes femme slaves/subs/bottoms are more widely accepted as are their trans/butch Tops/Daddys than Femme Tops and their butch-bottoms both in the Leather and butch-femme community.
For Me personally I feel that this does stem from a lack of respect for others relationships and also a simple lack of understanding of the dynamic, I still remember to this day being out with My original Master and having a butch I had known for years talking down to Me when hy realised that I was Her submissive, it made Me cringe because I had believed I had had hys respect and that he had also had respect for Her. Her response was to strip this butch right down, verbally and very loudly, telling hym She thought hys views and concept of My place in Her life as being 'less than' hys sub-femme as ridiculous as hys sub and myself had the same level of 'power' in our relationships, needless to say, She never spoke to hym again, and neither have I, even after I no longer served Her as a sub/bottom. Then again, after My service to Her had ended, and I was Top/Dom to a femme-sub, this same butches small clique of friends was extremely dismissive and snide to Me and My sub ... so what I'm basically trying to say here is I've seen this happen from both sides, maybe My being switch means I will always see this more? I'm not sure, maybe I'll see both more and less now I have a babygirl/sub who I care for deeply and I am her Syr and Daddy?
I'm not sure what's down the road in this regard, all I can say, and say with My hand on My heart, is if I see this at all in the Leather and butch-femme communities, I will come down on them like all hell has broken loose and confront whoever it may be with the simple fact that they, regardless of who they are or how long they've been in either community, have no goddamn right to judge Me, My babygirl, or anyone else, be they trans/butch-bottom/sub, femme/slave/sub, Femme/Female Top or any other kind of dynamic that they dismiss as being 'wrong' because they deem it so as they are too ignorant or narrow-minded to just accept the dynamic for what it is, a loving, sharing, caring bond for someone who chooses to submit themselves, completely and utterly, to the Dominance of another.
I hope I haven't rambled too much and have been as clear as I can about My views here, it's after midnight and My brain has a tendency to go AWOL sometimes at this time of day.
Thank you again for starting this thread weatherboi. I have nothing but love and respect for both you and your Ms.
(I owe you LOTS more cadburys mini eggs I believe Lady S because your boi here's not only a brave soul for bringing this topic to light, he is also, from what I've read, very good at what he does)

Just another thing that occurred to Me, our Leather community is based largely on respect, how can others expect to receive respect themselves when they choose to disrespect anothers dynamic???

[Toughy]

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Toughy]

So many put my M/s relationships down--you don't really RUN THE FUCK, your slave could stop that at any time, well, you're still in a butch/femme relationship, we know who really runs the show----shut the fuck up, you don't really know what the dynamic is especially when you don't LIVE IT but rather read about it and philosphize about it, and can't even stay awake in a workshop about it.

I wanted to comment on this. First...........don't tell me to shut the fuck up because I live in the butch/femme world and I do D/s M/s differently than you do. I know exactly what My dynamic is..........and frankly I don't give a shit what your dynamic looks like. It's yours.

I live the dynamic for however long I want to live and if I only live it 12/6 it makes My dynamic no less valid than your dynamic.

This is a discussion about butch bottom, femme Top and kink and as such has no place for such derisive comments directed toward another viewpoint. A viewpoint that made no negative comments about other dynamics. Fact is we agree on most of those dynamics.

There are less derisive ways to talk about keyboard Tops/Dom(mes)/Masters. More constructive ways to talk about how us kink folk move forward in the internet age.

[adorable]

I know I shouldn't do this - this is one of those train wreck moments - but damn if it doesn't always happen in the good threads....

I don't believe that Rope was speaking to you directly Toughy. Unless you fell asleep in a workshop. How I read that was he was saying that is what he has heard OTHERS say about dynamics (specifically hys) that no one could understand because they don't actually live his lifestyle.

[Jess]

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.

In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

[Apocalipstic]

I had to take a step back in appearing in Public with Mr. Cynthia as my submissive. When she is in submissive space in public, it is on a leash and no one is allowed to talk to her except for Me unless I give permission and I seldom do. (this only happens in private spaces, not at the grocery store or restaurants, I feel everyone should consent to seeing that stuff, not just My submissive)

Yes, I agree with Isadora, at first people propositioned her and a few other Femme and Butch friends acted like she should submit to them, hold their chairs, wait on them. They teased her and made little comments. I shut that down immediately, and I just will not place her in the position ever again. She can handle it but it infuriates me.

When we go to parties, we go as a non BDSM couple, unless it is Slut Night or a PLANNED IN ADVANCE BDSM party with pre-arranged rules. Not a party where people drink too much and suddenly people are getting beat next to the birthday cake.

I know Cynthia can handle people acting like idiots, but for some reason it lights my temper up faster than just about anything when people think they can mess with her. Brain melting FURY happens, so I try to keep public appearances at a minimum and avoid parties where non pre-planned BDSM is likely to happen.

[weatherboi]

Hi everybody!!

I am opening this thread to discuss a topic that keeps getting brought up in some form or fashion throughout various threads.

I am a trans/submissive/bottom/guy, that is in his second Femme led relationship. My first started over 20 years ago. I left that relationship without any instincts. I moved forward topping every aspect of my life and destroyed my own trustful nature. I got therapy and here I am.

The great thing about our community is we have all participated in evolving gender identity in our own way. This is why the spectrum is so wide.

I keep running into those "less than" conversations about energy exchange and how there seems to be a stigma with this type of intimate bond. My experience so far has been mostly from a corner watching others. I have been able to dodge the "belittle me bullet" from outsiders but it is just a matter of time before somebody addresses me as "less than" because of my relationship style. Sometimes I think it all revolves around misogyny and maybe even some mysandry. Any thoughts on this particular subject?? Any other subjects/experiences that will add value would be greatly appreciated!

hi jess

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

my reason for not originating this thread in a BDSM space is because this thread is not just about the kink and power exchange. it is about Femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms. not all Femme led relationships are specific to BDSM. it is about discussing the day to day encounters we have in our spaces, living in relationships that are stigmatized in a gender specific way. i have left some experiences in posts. none of them were soley about the power exchange but mostly about gender questioning encounters.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

i can comfortably say from my heart as i constantly evolve that it is about more than this for me. being self aware will not work unles i live with my minds eye open.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

well and that is exactly why it does not need to be in a BDSM forum.i always wonder why we have to default to those old misogynistic phrases in this kind of space?? having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. but it clearly shows again why i decided to start this topic in the gender,labels,identities forum. this is why i need to talk about it and try to find a way to change this style of thinking.



Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.



In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

my experiences so far from my leather family and community has been acceptance and appreciation. i agree

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

i understand this and see it from the outside. my life is Femme led 24/7 and i am a trans guy boy bottom 24/7 so i am never removed. it is not a choice but something that just is.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

i can not drop anything from my name because that is not for me to do without permission, i am owned. my Femme led relationship, my D/s M/s relationship only aids in widening my boundaries and sharpening my interactions with those around me from day to day. if i am ever pigeon holed as one of those "leather folk" then that would be my honor.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

what issue do you see is about self acceptance jess?? i need clarity please??

[weatherboi]

hi Toughy-

for me, the term 'bottoms run the fuck' illicits a 'slap in the face' so to speak to traditional kink values. it to me 'dumb downs' the idea of the power exchange. an oxymoron in phrase and theory. from my own perspective which is not the same perspective you come from. this works well in my relationship.

from my knees i say i can't/don't equate the theories my Ms or her Peers have to the level of humbleness in their hearts. my experience is they shine with great strength and that humbles me.







laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Bit]

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

Hi, Jess. I can't speak to most of your post, but I can tell you that I appreciate this thread being out in the wider forums, so to speak, since I don't read the BDSM forums and would have missed out on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I've been Mama in several relationships with boys, one a Transman, several of them Butches; I've also informally been Mama to several bois/boys and girls/grrls, not as part of a sexual relationship but in an extended family way during times that they needed extra support. I am most decidedly not Leather, nor a part of the BDSM community; none of my Mama/b/g relationships have been about Leather, BDSM, or kink (not even the sexual ones).

The gender issues I as a Mama have run into in the community have been from Butches and Transmen, all of them Daddies or Syrs/Sirs who were... oh, a polite way to describe their reactions to me... um... highly threatened by the idea that anyone at all might think they would allow a woman (interestingly, they ALL insisted on referring to me as a woman even when I said I preferred to be called a femme) to dominate them in any way. The impression I got was that it was extremely threatening to them to allow themselves even to seem to be vulnerable to strong female energy; they were only comfortable if they were clearly in control of and dominating that energy.

I always took this to be an issue that was individual to the people in question, rather than an issue that was widespread in the butch/femme community. I see from reading this thread that I may have been wrong, and that there seem to be way more people (of all gender IDs) who are threatened than I previously realized.

In my experience, put-downs and disrespect usually come from people trying to mask their own vulnerabilities and fears behind scathing derision. I'm sorry that any of us ever has to endure that... and I'm also sorry that anyone has to feel so threatened, so insignificant and frightened, that they would only feel safe by putting others down and treating their relationships with disrespect. That's really sad that so many of us might be so badly hurt in that way, yanno?

About switching, it's been my personal experience that my relationships are received easily and treated with respect by people who know that we switch between Daddy/girl and Mama/boy. I suspect, having read the thread, that it might not be such an easy thing if Gryph and I were to say that Gryph was only my boy and that I was the dominant one in the relationship.

The truth is that we're both dominant and--at the same time--we're both equals. I know that sounds complicated but actually it's the simplest relationship I've ever had. We both check in quite frequently to make sure the other's needs are met, and we're both always willing to compromise to make the other happy.

I think maybe what makes other people comfortable with our relationship structure is that we meet not just one but two stereotypes at once: some people see the dominant butch, and some see the equal feminist lesbians.

We just see each other.

[Jess]

Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific.

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

Thanks, Jess






hi jess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess
While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

my reason for not originating this thread in a BDSM space is because this thread is not just about the kink and power exchange. it is about Femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms. not all Femme led relationships are specific to BDSM. it is about discussing the day to day encounters we have in our spaces, living in relationships that are stigmatized in a gender specific way. i have left some experiences in posts. none of them were soley about the power exchange but mostly about gender questioning encounters.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

i can comfortably say from my heart as i constantly evolve that it is about more than this for me. being self aware will not work unles i live with my minds eye open.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

well and that is exactly why it does not need to be in a BDSM forum.i always wonder why we have to default to those old misogynistic phrases in this kind of space?? having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. but it clearly shows again why i decided to start this topic in the gender,labels,identities forum. this is why i need to talk about it and try to find a way to change this style of thinking.



Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.



In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

my experiences so far from my leather family and community has been acceptance and appreciation. i agree

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

i understand this and see it from the outside. my life is Femme led 24/7 and i am a trans guy boy bottom 24/7 so i am never removed. it is not a choice but something that just is.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

i can not drop anything from my name because that is not for me to do without permission, i am owned. my Femme led relationship, my D/s M/s relationship only aids in widening my boundaries and sharpening my interactions with those around me from day to day. if i am ever pigeon holed as one of those "leather folk" then that would be my honor.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.
what issue do you see is about self acceptance jess?? i need clarity please??

[Jess]

[QUOTE=Bit;108693]Hi, Jess. I can't speak to most of your post, but I can tell you that I appreciate this thread being out in the wider forums, so to speak, since I don't read the BDSM forums and would have missed out on it.

Bit, I agree. I think it is a great conversation and have received quite a few notes from other folks not into Leather/ BDSM who had felt they didn't really have a place to talk about it ( gender and relationship roles) and thought this was more for BDSM folks.

Thanks for what you shared. It makes perfect sense to me!

[Little_Duck]

Hi everyone!!!

I am not much into posting about gender and stuff since I am like still trying to find who I am and I read ALOT of the things people I know have to say and I like Grant( though not into the whole spankie spankie thing ) am alllllllll about bossy girls!!! (hi June!!!!:drool:)

I think it's pretty sad and mean to say that you see Grant as female, I mean I even know at 21 that he ain't female, he is a dude, even our brother who is 9 gets it.

I guess thsi is why I just read, but since Grant is part of our family I needed to show props.

Mad props Grant!!!

We all love you for who you are and that is the guy who was there for our sister during surgery, and is there for our Mommy!!!

That is all I really had to say thank you!!!!

Bye June!!!:drool:

[Jess]

Hi everyone!!!

I am not much into posting about gender and stuff since I am like still trying to find who I am and I read ALOT of the things people I know have to say and I like Grant( though not into the whole spankie spankie thing ) am alllllllll about bossy girls!!! (hi June!!!!:drool:)

I think it's pretty sad and mean to say that you see Grant as female, I mean I even know at 21 that he ain't female, he is a dude, even our brother who is 9 gets it.

I guess thsi is why I just read, but since Grant is part of our family I needed to show props.

Mad props Grant!!!


We all love you for who you are and that is the guy who was there for our sister during surgery, and is there for our Mommy!!!

That is all I really had to say thank you!!!!

Bye June!!!:drool:

An apology for Grant if I made improper use of pronoun/ descriptor. Sometimes I get confused by the interchangeable "boi" referring to females who id as masculine and boy which refers to male. My bad. No offense meant Grant.

[Bit]

I get tripped up by screen names sometimes, too. *wry smile* The thing is, when you're making a long post (or multi-quoting like I usually do), you can't see the profile info to double-check, so if it's someone you don't know well, there's nothing to go by BUT the screen name.

[SuperFemme]

A conversation such as this is important to have, and it is dismissive to come up in a conversation and school the author on where it should have been. In fact, the very act of doing so gives credence to the OP by putting hym in the *student* role and yourself in the *teacher* role when you two don't have that kind of familiarity.

I am not leather, and i totally get why this thread is in Gender, Labels, and Identities. It's about WeatherBoi and other subs/bois & D/s being treated as *less than* because of their identities.

[Bit]

....putting hym in the *student* role and yourself in the *teacher* role....

Interesting how differently we sometimes interpret things... I didn't read it that way at all, Adele. I read it as one equal talking to another equal, asking a question about something that was puzzling--and then going on to give opinions about the issues weatherboi raised in his OP. It was the kind of post I would expect Jess to make to me or to anyone, yanno?

Maybe I read it that way because I'm geared that way; I absolutely refuse to see or treat others as anything but my equal unless they have specifically asked me to be Mama for them. To me, it doesn't matter what someone might be, or how deeply they might live in whatever space they choose; if they haven't chosen me personally to Mama them, they are my equal--by the same token, if I haven't chosen them to Daddy me, they are my equal.

I know there's a tradition online of putting a sub/girl/boy/slave's name all lowercase, and if I notice someone uses that convention for themselves, I will try to respect it the same way I respect pronoun choices for Butches--but that's all it is, paying respect to someone's preferred name/pronoun. They're still my equal.

[Apocalipstic]

I think it is a great thread since the subject is about Femme Led relationships, I am confused as to why it would be a problem for it to be in the gender labels section of the forums.

It does seem kind of Toppy to tell people how to word and where to place their threads.

Yes, I know it happens all the time, it happened just last week in the RedZone to Christie, so I get that Jess might think it is ok to do that. But it seems Toppy.

I just wish we could take things as face value and respect that the OP really meant what he asked in a variety of contexts, so the placement is perfect.

There are Femme led relationships not in the Leather Community.

[Apocalipstic]

(Hi, LittleDuck ;) - Now, take that back about me being bossy!)

I'm also glad this is out in the general forum, because for me, it's all about mutual respect and gaining a better understanding. We are having a lot of conversations here about power/empowerment right now, which I find fascinating!

In the past, I have dated Butch Tops and Transmen, what I found to be the case for me is that without exception, they Topped me in bed, but in all other aspects of our relationship, we were equal or I took the lead. Some people think "Top on the streets, bottom in the sheets" is a derogatory term. I don't think that at all, in fact, I think it very clearly defines who I am. I have also known Butch and Transmen who were like that as well, and they were kind of fun ;) . It's not about "Flipping a Butch". It's about Desire. Even the meanest Butch Top I ever dated wanted to be held and comforted sometimes. I admire people who don't let their ego override their desires. Taking it up the whatever doesn't make you "less than" any more than serving as a table during a gathering does.

People forget that it's the bottom who is taking the lash. Any fool with some practice can manage a single tail, but the real strength comes from being able to take it. Frankly, I don't trust a Top who has never bottomed (Which is different to me than submitting). If you've never taken it, how can you give it? Perhaps that's another thread. But I am referring to people I have known in RL who claim to be Tops and when asked about their experience look at me in abject horror "NO, I could NEVER do that!" as though I had just suggested they suck on some day old underwear. *Spit*.

Great thread, weatherboi - Hang in there.

You rock June.

[Sachita]

In the past, I have dated Butch Tops and Transmen, what I found to be the case for me is that without exception, they Topped me in bed, but in all other aspects of our relationship, we were equal or I took the lead. Some people think "Top on the streets, bottom in the sheets" is a derogatory term. I don't think that at all, in fact, I think it very clearly defines who I am. I have also known Butch and Transmen who were like that as well, and they were kind of fun ;) . It's not about "Flipping a Butch". It's about Desire. Even the meanest Butch Top I ever dated wanted to be held and comforted sometimes. I admire people who don't let their ego override their desires. Taking it up the whatever doesn't make you "less than" any more than serving as a table during a gathering does.

.

Well said June! This is sorta me. I found myself attracted to butch/masculine and the BF bedroom dynamic. Enjoy being a lady and made love to, pampered, adored, etc. At the same time in day to day the chances are I will lead the relationship because I'm good at it.

Part of me thinks that the perfect relationship for me is one who is strong and naturally dominant as I am. Maybe a Daddy type because I'm a spoiled little girl. But lately reading these threads, some of the phrases from some of you I get these pangs and my heart pounds when I think about topping. Sometimes Lady Snow will have the most simple sentence and I can "feel" something in me spark up.

90% of the time I am dominant and the subtle undertones of D/s excites me and then 10% of me wants to know I have the option to just let go.

[weatherboi]

[QUOTE=Jess;108730]Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

this is where our individual perspectives lead us to difference, so here we our in genders, labels and identities. i also know my intent was for people from all places on the spectrum to be involved,because that is the only way to gain awareness, knowledge, and progression.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

this is the thing jess...when i thought about opening this thread i realized the balance may tip the scale but it was important for me to include all. just because you hadn't read it yet doesn't make it so. if only one couple showed up in here that sees themselves not into any kind of leather/bdsm/kink dynamic then i am happy happy they are here and can't wait for them to share.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. < this is what i said.

let me be more clear. i have heard these statements before in the past when describing my first femme led relationship, by my father and his friends. i just didnt feel the need to get that detailed in my post because i did not want to seem like i was disrespecting my father or his friends to my Ms or her Peers. She and They read this also. my point is your example sounded very ooogy to me in a mysandric kind of way. you do id as butch correct? i took the time to visit your side bar and saw "other" as preferred pronoun how would you feel if i started to assume your gender for you?

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

again this is where our individual perspectives differ. i accept myself. when a person doesn't respect my dynamic, or my gender i think...sheesh that person has alot of work to do. its on them not me. i feel everybody should respect my choices and my space. they may not like it but they can respect it. honor for me is an entirely different ballgame. honor is earned. i don't need people to "get it" to respect my choices and my space. limit.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

jess ...not that it would be a bad thing because i know it will help me be a better man, but female energy i dont have.. i pose a challenge to you... go find a post where you read this female energy i have and let me know cause i would like to be in on it. when i want to "see" one of my online community members i go to there profile page. if i want to further "see" them then i go to their posting history. i have taken the time out to go "see" your page and your history before addressing this post. i also stepped into some threads that i remember we had interaction and you were active. all i will say about how i see you is this...clearly you waffle on issues hiding behind devils advocacy and are confused. i am not slighted jess...i am determined to learn the most i can in the short amount of time i got.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific. uh huh

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

jess i do not feel anyone has been inappropriate here when discussing this topic.. my Ms and her Peers have and i trust will always treat the public eye with respect. your scenario above will never be my life. if it is somebody else's life then i am sorry for them and hope these words help. what proclivities do you speak of?? i am not sure why you are bringing Old Guard into this, do you?(i have permission from my Ms to ask you to contact me through PM in regards to Old Guard out of respect for protocol and respect for this thread, i will only discuss Old Guard with you nothing else)



I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

i am not sure where you are coming from. you say your kink is private yet you have revealed some of it throughout this website. so i am wondering why you contradict yourself? ? i have not once felt i am defending myself to "unlearned" people in here, and feel you are putting people down who don"t live in kink. again my public outings with my Ms and her Peers have never caused me discomfort or to feel disrespected. if someone we know or a stranger acts like an asshat it is on them not my Ms. will she defend me??...yes. again this is where our perspectives differ...i see the retreat of folks who have been around a long time as just being natural...there may be a small percentage of people that "retire" feels this what you say to be true for them. when i read this section of your post i see you bragging about your privacy and putting "unlearned" people (your words not mine) and retired kink folk in a place where they see themselves as victim. not really sure how it relates to the thread.



I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

well then i would say to you...lucky for you, you are not an openly submissive boi or slave because you would have to settle with that attitude about it. i choose to take a different route in life, because i don't settle. again i will ask...what is going on in here that makes you believe to be offputting to people??

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

jess have you read this thread???? the title??? cause we have been talking about that.you just don't seem to ever add anything...for me it feels like you just keep coming in here and picking certain details apart that hold no merit.

Thanks, Jess

Thanks for taking the time to read this,
Grant

[Jess]

[QUOTE=weatherboi;109229][QUOTE=Jess;108730]Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

this is where our individual perspectives lead us to difference, so here we our in genders, labels and identities. i also know my intent was for people from all places on the spectrum to be involved,because that is the only way to gain awareness, knowledge, and progression.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

this is the thing jess...when i thought about opening this thread i realized the balance may tip the scale but it was important for me to include all. just because you hadn't read it yet doesn't make it so. if only one couple showed up in here that sees themselves not into any kind of leather/bdsm/kink dynamic then i am happy happy they are here and can't wait for them to share.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. < this is what i said.

let me be more clear. i have heard these statements before in the past when describing my first femme led relationship, by my father and his friends. i just didnt feel the need to get that detailed in my post because i did not want to seem like i was disrespecting my father or his friends to my Ms or her Peers. She and They read this also. my point is your example sounded very ooogy to me in a mysandric kind of way. you do id as butch correct? i took the time to visit your side bar and saw "other" as preferred pronoun how would you feel if i started to assume your gender for you?

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

again this is where our individual perspectives differ. i accept myself. when a person doesn't respect my dynamic, or my gender i think...sheesh that person has alot of work to do. its on them not me. i feel everybody should respect my choices and my space. they may not like it but they can respect it. honor for me is an entirely different ballgame. honor is earned. i don't need people to "get it" to respect my choices and my space. limit.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

jess ...not that it would be a bad thing because i know it will help me be a better man, but female energy i dont have.. i pose a challenge to you... go find a post where you read this female energy i have and let me know cause i would like to be in on it. when i want to "see" one of my online community members i go to there profile page. if i want to further "see" them then i go to their posting history. i have taken the time out to go "see" your page and your history before addressing this post. i also stepped into some threads that i remember we had interaction and you were active. all i will say about how i see you is this...clearly you waffle on issues hiding behind devils advocacy and are confused. i am not slighted jess...i am determined to learn the most i can in the short amount of time i got.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific. uh huh

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

jess i do not feel anyone has been inappropriate here when discussing this topic.. my Ms and her Peers have and i trust will always treat the public eye with respect. your scenario above will never be my life. if it is somebody else's life then i am sorry for them and hope these words help. what proclivities do you speak of?? i am not sure why you are bringing Old Guard into this, do you?(i have permission from my Ms to ask you to contact me through PM in regards to Old Guard out of respect for protocol and respect for this thread, i will only discuss Old Guard with you nothing else)



I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

i am not sure where you are coming from. you say your kink is private yet you have revealed some of it throughout this website. so i am wondering why you contradict yourself? ? i have not once felt i am defending myself to "unlearned" people in here, and feel you are putting people down who don"t live in kink. again my public outings with my Ms and her Peers have never caused me discomfort or to feel disrespected. if someone we know or a stranger acts like an asshat it is on them not my Ms. will she defend me??...yes. again this is where our perspectives differ...i see the retreat of folks who have been around a long time as just being natural...there may be a small percentage of people that "retire" feels this what you say to be true for them. when i read this section of your post i see you bragging about your privacy and putting "unlearned" people (your words not mine) and retired kink folk in a place where they see themselves as victim. not really sure how it relates to the thread.



I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

well then i would say to you...lucky for you, you are not an openly submissive boi or slave because you would have to settle with that attitude about it. i choose to take a different route in life, because i don't settle. again i will ask...what is going on in here that makes you believe to be offputting to people??

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

jess have you read this thread???? the title??? cause we have been talking about that.you just don't seem to ever add anything...for me it feels like you just keep coming in here and picking certain details apart that hold no merit.

Thanks, Jess


Ya know what grant, i tried to have a conversation with you. It is obviously not going to work. Have a nice day, hope ya figure it out.

[Jess]

Thank you Little Duck for your very considerate rep comment.

[weatherboi]

jess my feedback has been just the opposite...so i will say again the intent of this thread is about femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms..open to all...all have been invited to join...if something being said is a put off then let the thread know and we will respect that but so far i am not getting that feed back.


Bit, I agree. I think it is a great conversation and have received quite a few notes from other folks not into Leather/ BDSM who had felt they didn't really have a place to talk about it ( gender and relationship roles) and thought this was more for BDSM folks.

Thanks for what you shared. It makes perfect sense to me!

[WingsOnFire]

I love the way this discussion has continued and everyone can deal with issues and not turn it into a bash session. I have really enjoyed that so far about this site. I look forward to further discussions on this subject!

Edited to say... whoopppss... obviously I wasnt aware more discussions were going on..... I look forward to more discussions about what this thread is about.... Femme led relationships... ANY AND ALL Femme led relationships... June & Sachita... great input... thanks! I love reading everything everyone has to offer....

[weatherboi]

Little_Duck-
thanks for this...you are an incredible person and i am honored by your support!!!! i love all you guys very much!!! :gimmehug:

You da bomb!
Grant


Hi everyone!!!

I am not much into posting about gender and stuff since I am like still trying to find who I am and I read ALOT of the things people I know have to say and I like Grant( though not into the whole spankie spankie thing ) am alllllllll about bossy girls!!! (hi June!!!!:drool:)

i like bossy girls too!!!

I think it's pretty sad and mean to say that you see Grant as female, I mean I even know at 21 that he ain't female, he is a dude, even our brother who is 9 gets it.

I guess thsi is why I just read, but since Grant is part of our family I needed to show props.

Mad props Grant!!!

We all love you for who you are and that is the guy who was there for our sister during surgery, and is there for our Mommy!!!

That is all I really had to say thank you!!!!

Bye June!!!:drool:

[Toughy]

hi Toughy-

for me, the term 'bottoms run the fuck' illicits a 'slap in the face' so to speak to traditional kink values. it to me 'dumb downs' the idea of the power exchange. an oxymoron in phrase and theory. from my own perspective which is not the same perspective you come from. this works well in my relationship.

from my knees i say i can't/don't equate the theories my Ms or her Peers have to the level of humbleness in their hearts. my experience is they shine with great strength and that humbles me.

thanks for your comments......

I've been in and out of the kink community for around 30 years. It has always had a role in my life since I was in my 20's....I will be 58 in a couple of months. Sometimes I am part of the public kink community and sometimes I not, however that does not mean it is not part of my core being....it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'traditional kink values'. In my time, kink values have changed considerably. When I came out...........consent meant you walked in the door. There were no safe words. There was no negotiation in the sense we think of it today.

We kink folks have rightfully changed our values over time. We have gone from no rules, to Safe, Sane, Consensual (SSC), to Risk Aware Consensual Kink (RACK).

For Me.......'the bottom runs the fuck' is not a slap in anyone's face. It does not lessen the power dynamic....in My mind it enhances the power dynamic because we started as equals and she then gives Me the gift of her pain and submission.

Thanks for the conversation. It has been interesting.

edited to add: I cannot speak to the gay man Old Guard ways. In my time women were not allowed in that community. I do know that for many years in both the Old Guard and the women's kink community you had to start from the bottom. You earned your leathers by experiencing being on your knees. I know .....I've been there and will still go there when that 'itch' strikes. However I live in the kink world as a Top/Dom 99.5% of the time.

[SuperFemme]

WeatherBoi: I don't want you to walk away from this thread feeling like you have to hide who you are. That bugs me, and it feels like victim blaming to me.

I am proud of you for being your authentic self. That is the most we can hope for from any individual. Authenticity.

It does not matter if the demoralizing comes from folks who live a leather lifestyle or not. At the end of the day what is demoralizing is just that.

To *me* the dismissive way you are sometimes treated is deeply rooted in sexism and misogyny. People as a whole are socialized to believe that anything on the male spectrum equals powerful, strong, dominant, assertive and well, manly. Female equals demur, submissive, weak and a supporting role. Turning that learned thinking upside down on it's head is wildly subversive (and quite sexy to me).

I've seen that which you speak of in action. I am happy that you've not only started a thread about it, but that you've stuck it out thus far. Not because I don't think you can stick it out, but because it must get tiresome.

How do you think your community can best support you and be inclusive? What can I do? And what can anyone do on a person by person basis?

[christie]

I think that perhaps the obvious disconnect is that your inability/unwillingness to hear what Jess is trying to say to you is more of a personality conflict more than anything.

That being said, I think that this thread is more about power exchange from the very title: Femme LED and trans/butch bottom. Leading implies power and bottom is an obvious not in power BDSM term. I don’t think that you were implying sexual preferences and you went on to clarify that wasn’t the case. To use one of my favorite phrases, “Hell, even Ronnie Milsap could see that.”

Further, the thread was pointed in a power exchange direction in the very usage of words and the space/experience from which folks have responded.

If your intent was to bring awareness to feeling not supported or appreciated for your contribution and your relationship to others outside the BDSM world, I am hopeful you accomplish that. It is a dynamic that we don’t often see and its probably not what we think of when we hear/read “butch/femme”.

In reference to the issues of private vs. public and our kink, I think the intent was very clear. Since there seems to be a question, lets see if I can break it down more simply.

There are things about BDSM that are not for the public eye. If it were true that it was for public space, we would see people ottomans at fine dining restaurants and leashed folks at WalMart and Trader Joe’s. We might see a parent taking a child to school dressed in fetish wear and a ball gag while crawling across the pavement ushered by the crossing guard who happens to be in sissymaid attire.

As Jen mentioned in her post, there are some things you just don’t parade around the streets. Here and in other online communities that are kink friendly, we feel its safe to express, embrace and connect with like-minded folk and allies. While yes, the internet is a public place, there are BDSM forums where it is appropriate, neither Jess nor I feel that the nonBDSM forums are a place to fly that freak flag and that its akin to busting up in the local diner in a corset and thigh boots, while eversohot, might not be appreciated, supported or accepted or even welcome. To us, its about being as respectful of the “vanilla space” as much as we want our kink space respected.

I think perhaps you are making a concerted effort to not get what Jess is trying to say to you in that hy appreciates and supports both your role in your relationship AND that hy doesn’t see you as “less than”.

Perhaps one of the reasons that hy appreciates this is that hy is partnered with a strong woman who leads most anything she wants to lead, given that the first and foremost dynamic of our relationships is as partners – equals. I have always said it takes a helluva butch, strong and confident in self to NOT be intimidated by celebrating and encouraging hys/her/hyr partner/spouse/lover (pick a word) to be that strong, vibrant being she just inherently is.

One of Jess’s closest friends is a Femme Master. Her slave is her biomale hubby. They are former M/s title holders and I can assure you that neither of us see her slave as “less than” a man, or less than anything the hell else. He is probably one of the most incredibly intelligent, strong individuals I have ever encountered and is a completely, inherently devoted slave I have ever been privileged to know. Their relationship is a thing of beauty to bear witness to and I can’t possibly imagine being anything less than supportive of anyone in however they find their bliss.

In closing, I think that we don’t really need to continue to worry about the world in general “othering” us and making us feel less than because we seem to do a damn fine job in doing that to one another. We manage to pick one another apart and expend a great deal of energy rather than finding a common ground and supporting one another, in whatever relationship dynamic we choose

[SuperFemme]

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

[weatherboi]

hi apocalipstic

thank You very much for sharing your experiences, feelings and solutions about You and Mr. Cynthia's personal dynamic. my Ms is very specific about public outings and planned events as well. it makes time out away from the home very relaxing and easy for us so i can solely concentrate on my service. like You she does not want to set us up for failure. thanks and please accept my apologies for not responding to this sooner.

Grant


I had to take a step back in appearing in Public with Mr. Cynthia as my submissive. When she is in submissive space in public, it is on a leash and no one is allowed to talk to her except for Me unless I give permission and I seldom do. (this only happens in private spaces, not at the grocery store or restaurants, I feel everyone should consent to seeing that stuff, not just My submissive)

Yes, I agree with Isadora, at first people propositioned her and a few other Femme and Butch friends acted like she should submit to them, hold their chairs, wait on them. They teased her and made little comments. I shut that down immediately, and I just will not place her in the position ever again. She can handle it but it infuriates me.

When we go to parties, we go as a non BDSM couple, unless it is Slut Night or a PLANNED IN ADVANCE BDSM party with pre-arranged rules. Not a party where people drink too much and suddenly people are getting beat next to the birthday cake.

I know Cynthia can handle people acting like idiots, but for some reason it lights my temper up faster than just about anything when people think they can mess with her. Brain melting FURY happens, so I try to keep public appearances at a minimum and avoid parties where non pre-planned BDSM is likely to happen.

[Jess]

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.


In my relatively limited history, I had until here and now never heard anyone outside of a BDSM relationship refer to themselves as a bottom or top for that matter. If this is yet another new use of an old term then I have been remiss.

Could you please clarify the use of this term for me outside of the obvious BDSM connotation?

Thank you.

[christie]

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

This is where it gets sticky for me. We redefine words.

Bottoming, as I understand it, and as I checked with a fellow kinkster with over 30 years experience, was a term coined to define a role for an individual on the receiving end of a scene who was not in a definable relationship with the Dominant/Sadist/Master (no offense meant to using nonfemale descriptors - assume them included)

I am curious to know how you see bottoming outside a power exchange/BDSM dynamic.

[Jess]

Thanks June. My only other guess was that it was a sexual positioning kind of usage of the term.

FYI, I think bossy women are hot. rawr

[christie]

This is where it gets sticky for me. We redefine words.

Bottoming, as I understand it, and as I checked with a fellow kinkster with over 30 years experience, was a term coined to define a role for an individual on the receiving end of a scene who was not in a definable relationship with the Dominant/Sadist/Master (no offense meant to using nonfemale descriptors - assume them included)

I am curious to know how you see bottoming outside a power exchange/BDSM dynamic.

I don't normally quote myself, but I thought I made it clear in my post that I acknowledged how bottoming can be about how you fuck, but also that the OP went on to clarify that wasn't the intent (or at least thats how I read it).

That being said, what other ways is "bottom" used if not in a BDSM/sexual connotation?

[Little_Duck]

You are most welcome!!

Once again thank you for apologizing, thank you all for letting me express my feelings for a member our our family.

Little Duck is all about the bossy girls!!!

Peace out!

[SuperFemme]

Bottoming for *me* is not about a sexual position. I am not in the leather scene but I don't think one has to be in order to enjoy sexual power exchanges.

I get that Bottom traditionally is talked about in the leather sense, but I think that it has expanded beyond that.

I mean NO disrespect to anyone for whom Bottoming IS a leather activity. I appreciate all realms of sexuality. :poc-love:

eta: if we want to deconstruct this further please pm me. i don't want to derail this thread.

[weatherboi]

my first relationship was Femme led and i was bottom in bed and the decision making. No BDSM involved at all. i don't feel like that relationship was about power exchange as much as it was about it just being natural...i mean there is an obvious power exchange but it was something we fell into. we did not speak about it or negotiate anything...it was just a natural flow.

Good thing to bring up and look at!!!
Thanks!!!



Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

I'm going to redirect this back to the topic, which is:

Femme led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms

I think it has been made clear by the placement of the thread and subsequent conversations that this is not specifically a BDSM D/s thread, but rather for the discussion of Butches and Transmen who happen to like "Bossy Girls/Women". Of course there will be an aspect of BDSM D/s included because there is definite cross-over.

However, in answer to Jess' question, even though you didn't ask me, without sharing too much, I am not involved in a D/s relationship with my partner, however, I do consider myself as a bottom in bed. That may not jibe up with how it works for you, but it does, so far work for us.

And, I'm also real, real bossy.

Carry on - Please be respectful, and if you find there are folks you can't or won't see eye to eye with, then please don't engage with them, poke at them, etc. And this extends to partners, lovers and friends.

[weatherboi]

WeatherBoi: I don't want you to walk away from this thread feeling like you have to hide who you are. That bugs me, and it feels like victim blaming to me.
i can't/won't walk away Ms #2...lol...i had to go look up victim blaming...i don't feel the this is happening...i think in threads like this it is hard to keep the topic on point...so i push forward learning what i can.

I am proud of you for being your authentic self. That is the most we can hope for from any individual. Authenticity.
this makes me wanna cry. thank You...i appreciate your perspective on this topic and it is valuable to me.

It does not matter if the demoralizing comes from folks who live a leather lifestyle or not. At the end of the day what is demoralizing is just that.

To *me* the dismissive way you are sometimes treated is deeply rooted in sexism and misogyny. People as a whole are socialized to believe that anything on the male spectrum equals powerful, strong, dominant, assertive and well, manly. Female equals demur, submissive, weak and a supporting role. Turning that learned thinking upside down on it's head is wildly subversive (and quite sexy to me).

in therapy when addressing my trans and misogyny/sexism it revolves around experiences i had with a very misogynistic father and how that comes into play with how i hear women...and when discussing my Femme led relationship we discuss mysandry/ misogyny and sexism...it is hard for me to openly talk about my own misogyny...not so much about the misogyny/mysandry i endure...my therapist pointed this out to me and the only conclusion i could come to for myself was lack of not wanting to be accountable for my stuff...

I've seen that which you speak of in action. I am happy that you've not only started a thread about it, but that you've stuck it out thus far. Not because I don't think you can stick it out, but because it must get tiresome.

How do you think your community can best support you and be inclusive? What can I do? And what can anyone do on a person by person basis?

my community has supported me by giving a space for support to a type of relationship that also needs examination. my intention was to have this space be for anybody and everybody.

Ms#2 look at all You do already...lobster anyone??

i can't really say what people can do per say but i would like to ask people keep an open mind when posting in here.




thank you thank you

[Martina]

It's about Desire. Even the meanest Butch Top I ever dated wanted to be held and comforted sometimes. I admire people who don't let their ego override their desires.

That struck me as odd. i think being comforted and held -- the need to be -- is not really a desire issue. Nor is it a D/s issue. If someone is a human being, they are going to need that at some point.

This also implies that Dominants are not vulnerable to their subs, or that if they are, that that takes them out of Top space. There is no way to be a Dominant and not be vulnerable to the sub. The sub knows the Dominant really well if she or he is going to do her job. i am assuming a longer term relationship.

This rankled. Dominants are human beings. They need what we all do. Some may not allow themselves to be comforted by submissives. They may get that from partners or friends. But the vast majority, i'd say, have had moments where the submissive has provided comfort and support. i think that is not an uncommon form of service and connection between a submissive and a Dominant. It's an intimate connection. Dominants let down their guard. In those moments, they are still Dominant.

[Martina]

People forget that it's the bottom who is taking the lash. Any fool with some practice can manage a single tail, but the real strength comes from being able to take it.

i am not trying to be picky, but even this is just not true. It's just not. Tops have a lot of expertise, and it takes a lot of personal knowledge and self-control to run a good scene.

Anyway, enough.

[Random]

edited to add: I am mystified, sometimes, at how some folks just don't want to see the power inherent in being a bottom/sub.....


I am mystified by these blinders myself..

For me..

Submission is powerful... strong.... awe inspiring... The trust in the eyes... The willingness/ablility to give up control to someone else.. To trust that they are going to take you where you need to go, give you what you crave...and in that submission they are allowing me to give them what I need to give...

Awe Inspiring...

[Martina]

There is one Femme Top and Her boi (butch) who i love to see play. It is sooo hot. i have seen her serve the Dominant as well. Always hot and respectful and playful. Very dignified except when the poor boy was screaming in fear and pain. ;)

However, i have wondered whether i have some of this prejudice. i have reacted to a few Femme Dominant-butch/trans sub couples with some squick. So i gave it a lot of thought.

i LOVE seeing butch-butch play and D/s. Nothing hotter, so clearly seeing boys abject in their submission and bottom space is not the issue. i like seeing boys exposed and hungry and afraid and adoring their Tops. Very hot.

Plus, i myself serve Femme Tops. So i was mystified by my reaction.

i figured it out finally. Quite a few of the boys i had seen with Femme Dominants ran a lot of puppy energy with their Ma'ams. Puppy energy at best just flattens me. At worst it is a big squick. (This is MY problem. i also get freaked by seeing folks in DEEP babygirl space, so it's not all about gender. Plus girls can be puppies.)

But i have thought about this -- whether i was someone who shared this prejudice.

i think i do in some ways. i had an acquaintance who is trans. He did not have a job for a long while and was making his femme partner fairly miserable during this period. So part of my displeasure with him was how big of a jerk he was being to his partner. But i also experienced that deep sexist judgement about a man not making a living, not supporting himself and, in fact, being supported by a woman. i REALLY experienced that. i was shocked at myself. This relationship was not femme-lead. But i do mention it because it was that kind of "man-up" reaction that i had. i was like how can you take up so much space and be such a foul mess when you aren't even making any money? i was floored by that reaction in me. But i had it.

[Sachita]

I'm going to redirect this back to the topic, which is:

Femme led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms

I think it has been made clear by the placement of the thread and subsequent conversations that this is not specifically a BDSM D/s thread, but rather for the discussion of Butches and Transmen who happen to like "Bossy Girls/Women". Of course there will be an aspect of BDSM D/s included because there is definite cross-over.

However, in answer to Jess' question, even though you didn't ask me, without sharing too much, I am not involved in a D/s relationship with my partner, however, I do consider myself as a bottom in bed. That may not jibe up with how it works for you, but it does, so far work for us.

And, I'm also real, real bossy.

Carry on - Please be respectful, and if you find there are folks you can't or won't see eye to eye with, then please don't engage with them, poke at them, etc. And this extends to partners, lovers and friends.

I like that, "Bossy Bottom". I would say that could define me but I think it's much deeper then that but what a great term.

[Sachita]

my first relationship was Femme led and i was bottom in bed and the decision making. No BDSM involved at all. i don't feel like that relationship was about power exchange as much as it was about it just being natural...i mean there is an obvious power exchange but it was something we fell into. we did not speak about it or negotiate anything...it was just a natural flow.

Good thing to bring up and look at!!!
Thanks!!!

Thank you for this thread btw. It's been really thought provoking and constructive for me.

I use to tell people when asked what I was into "erotic control". In my opinion female domination was not BDSM. There are elements within FD that look like BDSM and when one is a seductress hunting and harvesting erotic control they before artful with the play. I became experienced at BDSM play not because I flog someone and get off on rolling a whip against naked flesh but the dynamic it's building between the two of us. I don't need to have bdsm play in my D/s to feel a power exhausting. The subtle innuendos that seduce us deeper into that sexual space is chemistry unlike the typical vanilla dynamic. For me it's constant and always there even when we are appearing to be the typical butch-femme couple, laying on my back getting fucked or cuddling up on his shoulder.

[Random]

Hey Martina,

I don't want to derail the thread too much, so I will keep this brief..

For me this below statement is not true...

When I am in domme space, I am not vulnerable to my sub... There is no way that I can do my job and be emotional vulnerable. I can not give her what she needs/craves if I am not in complete control of my mind and body and emotions. Being that I am a sexual sadist, that would just be plain dangerous.




This also implies that Dominants are not vulnerable to their subs, or that if they are, that that takes them out of Top space. There is no way to be a Dominant and not be vulnerable to the sub. The sub knows the Dominant really well if she or he is going to do her job. i am assuming a longer term relationship.

[Martina]

i didn't mean during bdsm play. i meant if you have a D/s relationship. Over time, your sub has to know you if she or he is to serve you well. You have to be KNOWN to them. That is a kind of vulnerability. There are others. But that's the sort of thing i meant.

Hey Martina,

I don't want to derail the thread too much, so I will keep this brief..

For me this below statement is not true...

When I am in domme space, I am not vulnerable to my sub... There is no way that I can do my job and be emotional vulnerable. I can not give her what she needs/craves if I am not in complete control of my mind and body and emotions. Being that I am a sexual sadist, that would just be plain dangerous.

[Random]

i didn't mean during bdsm play. i meant if you have a D/s relationship. Over time, your sub has to know you if she or he is to serve you well. You have to be KNOWN to them. That is a kind of vulnerability. There are others. But that's the sort of thing i meant.

Ah... Different views...

I don't view what is in me as play... not in the least bit (I understand the way you used it)

For me... My partner is getting to know me, is peeling me like an onion and I her... That is part of any heathy relationship...

For me that has nothing to do with submission and dominance..

[Medusa]

In my relationship with Jack, I am the boss of her.
I am, however, still amused to this day when I think back to how many times someone thought that I was her "Mommy" or that she was my submissive in the bedroom.
*snort*

[Chancie]

<snip>

i like seeing boys exposed and hungry and afraid and adoring their Tops.

<snip>



Aw, have you met my Pete? :stillheart:

[Martina]

It's not about you. i just get tired of all these sideways swipes at Tops, as if that's OK. It happens a lot.

Martina? What are you going on about? Did I say that ALL Tops don't have a lot of expertise? Were you inferring that ALL Tops do? Neither of those statements would be true. And, I didn't say anything about ALL Tops.

And yes, it does take a lot of personal knowledge and self-control to run a good scene. You seem to be taking all of my personal point of view and personal experiences very personally. I was not speaking for you.

And I really don't appreciate you taking a tiny piece of my post and responding to it out of context. I further said *I* do not trust a Top that has not bottomed. You can feel free to trust anyone you like.

If you are having a personal issue with me as a member expressing my opinions, please feel free to PM me. Otherwise, what we're doing is going to start looking like a derail.

[Martina]

For me... My partner is getting to know me, is peeling me like an onion and I her... That is part of any heathy relationship...

For me that has nothing to do with submission and dominance..

No, it doesn't necessarily. It's part of any relationship as you say. But for some people it does have to do with D/s. It does for me, for example, because i am 24/7.

[Isadora]

All relationships are about energy exchange, not necessarily about "power" exchange, but I don't know a relationship that has lasted longer then a couple years that does not at some point deal with balance of "power". Especially since, in my understanding, this is not a BDSM thread and therefore BDSM and D/S relationships have a unique form of power exchange.

My grandmother ran the household. She was bossy. My grandfather adored her and his always strove to make her happy. She led fearlessly. He followed willingly. They, as far as I know, were not a BDSM couple.

My Great Aunt Laura thew her abusive father out of the house when she was 16 and with her brother George (a year older then her) supported and raised her 8 younger brother and sisters and she ran her husband the same way. Mr. Ward did everything she asked and loved her.

I am bossy. I like to be in control until I don't want to be. Heh. I boss Hawk around and have for years (going on 22). It is innate. I do not have a D/s relationship with Hawk. Hawk is not my bottom/boi. Hawk is my spousal unit we have very clear understandings of how our energy is exchanged. Heh.

Now I remember hearing my Grandpa's younger brother once say that my Grandfather was "hen pecked" but I never ever in years of being with them heard him complain or do anything but agree with her. Except when he would slip me money when she was not around. *soft smile* Sometimes outside observations of people's relationships is assumptive and annulling.

I think this is where I get confused when taking/co-opting/borrowing/re-defining D/s leather language (i.e. bottom) and using it in vanilla or other flavors of relationships. I see common language as a feature of a "culture" and when I see it out of cultural contest, I have to be the "hanged man" and look from upside down to see from a different point of view. Everyone does that at a different angle and sometimes no matter how many ways I look at it, it just doesn't work for me. But I always try to look.

So, my point is relationships, are like snowflakes, each one unique and beautiful or disgusting in its own little way.

[Medusa]

I missed this post Isadora, but wanted to say that I found it quite powerful and lovely :)

[Sachita]

All relationships are about energy exchange, not necessarily about "power" exchange, but I don't know a relationship that has lasted longer then a couple years that does not at some point deal with balance of "power". Especially since, in my understanding, this is not a BDSM thread and therefore BDSM and D/S relationships have a unique form of power exchange.

My grandmother ran the household. She was bossy. My grandfather adored her and his always strove to make her happy. She led fearlessly. He followed willingly. They, as far as I know, were not a BDSM couple.

My Great Aunt Laura thew her abusive father out of the house when she was 16 and with her brother George (a year older then her) supported and raised her 8 younger brother and sisters and she ran her husband the same way. Mr. Ward did everything she asked and loved her.

I am bossy. I like to be in control until I don't want to be. Heh. I boss Hawk around and have for years (going on 22). It is innate. I do not have a D/s relationship with Hawk. Hawk is not my bottom/boi. Hawk is my spousal unit we have very clear understandings of how our energy is exchanged. Heh.

Now I remember hearing my Grandpa's younger brother once say that my Grandfather was "hen pecked" but I never ever in years of being with them heard him complain or do anything but agree with her. Except when he would slip me money when she was not around. *soft smile* Sometimes outside observations of people's relationships is assumptive and annulling.

I think this is where I get confused when taking/co-opting/borrowing/re-defining D/s leather language (i.e. bottom) and using it in vanilla or other flavors of relationships. I see common language as a feature of a "culture" and when I see it out of cultural contest, I have to be the "hanged man" and look from upside down to see from a different point of view. Everyone does that at a different angle and sometimes no matter how many ways I look at it, it just doesn't work for me. But I always try to look.

So, my point is relationships, are like snowflakes, each one unique and beautiful or disgusting in its own little way.


You have such a beautifully articulate and yet simple way of saying things. Sometimes I struggle with words, finding definitions that dont fit just so I can communicate without being misunderstood. How I am, like you bossy etc, on a day to day is not part of the Goddess Femdom Diva in me. That aspect of me looks for magic, a connection way beyond words that leaves me breathless.

I was speaking to a boi that is wanting my attention trying to describe who i am and the type of connection I'm looking for. Aside from my day to day, a strong bossy independent woman, the Mistress in me needs a constant tempo and exchange of adoration and worship. This can only be met by one who truly has a need and desire to give this. It won't work if you're giving it just to win me. They need to give as much as I need to take or in some cases receive what I project.

I will be the first one to say "I'm a bitch with double standards." I think its great when hy says "I love that about you."

[The_Lady_Snow]

...................

[Waldo]

Leave it to Snow to whore around for conversation. ;)

xo Snowy.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Leave it to Snow to whore around for conversation. ;)

xo Snowy.


Well it is Saturday night, it's how it rolls...

;)

[Waldo]

Well it is Saturday night, it's how it rolls...

;)

Uh huh. There is clearly not enough of the chatty around these parts tonight.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Uh huh. There is clearly not enough of the chatty around these parts tonight.

Not when it comes to this particular dynamic!

[Martina]

Ah well, missed the chance to chat. i am in a Femme-led relationship, but i am not butch/trans. Don't know if i should chime in anyway.

[weatherboi]

Ah well, missed the chance to chat. i am in a Femme-led relationship, but i am not butch/trans. Don't know if i should chime in anyway.

hey Martina!!!
your opinion is always welcome in here, so please feel free!!!
i would also be willing to ask admin to change the title of the thread...i feel the femme led dynamic is so small it might be to our advantage. what do you think?:mohawk:

[weatherboi]

i am a lucky guy that gets to do this!!!:mohawk:


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kYuPyOLtvik/TNcVf5iiU2I/AAAAAAAAAns/Jz25PS7mk48/s320/Mighty-Jill-Off.jpg

[Martina]

Thanks!! :)

Great graphic! Yum.

i am so so so so so into giving footrubs. My Queen loves them. My Sir too, actually.

i am trying to learn how to do a pedicure, but i am bad. Even though i am femme, i have never done my own nails (and hardly ever had them done). Ma'am bought me a lovely kit, but it took FOREVER the first time and was a mess. :( i know boys who can do better pedis than this girl. god. lol.

Being at Her feet, for whatever reason, is one of the joys of life.

Re changing the title of the thread, i don't know how many new folks it would bring in. Nice to feel welcome though. :)

[weatherboi]

hey Martina!!!

i have become very fond of styling Ms's hair for Her. She has been very patient while i have learned to use the Chi. i have often thought about teaching myself how to give Her a pedicure. when She allows me to rub Her feet i use this

http://img.walgreens.com/dbimagecache/73554110301_450x450_a.jpg

i also wanted to add that i have never in my life styled hair or anything in the beauty/style related in service before...i was really nervous using that Chi...it is hot!!! burning Her does not feel good and makes me want to crawl in a hole when i have. my point is She is super forgiving and patient and i am lucky to have a Ms that allows me the space to gain value in giving up something. it makes me trust in her direction of Our/our relationship so my acts come to Her more willingly. hope that makes sense.

[waxnrope]

All relationships are about energy exchange, not necessarily about "power" exchange, but I don't know a relationship that has lasted longer then a couple years that does not at some point deal with balance of "power". Especially since, in my understanding, this is not a BDSM thread and therefore BDSM and D/S relationships have a unique form of power exchange.

My grandmother ran the household. She was bossy. My grandfather adored her and his always strove to make her happy. She led fearlessly. He followed willingly. They, as far as I know, were not a BDSM couple.

My Great Aunt Laura thew her abusive father out of the house when she was 16 and with her brother George (a year older then her) supported and raised her 8 younger brother and sisters and she ran her husband the same way. Mr. Ward did everything she asked and loved her.

I am bossy. I like to be in control until I don't want to be. Heh. I boss Hawk around and have for years (going on 22). It is innate. I do not have a D/s relationship with Hawk. Hawk is not my bottom/boi. Hawk is my spousal unit we have very clear understandings of how our energy is exchanged. Heh.

Now I remember hearing my Grandpa's younger brother once say that my Grandfather was "hen pecked" but I never ever in years of being with them heard him complain or do anything but agree with her. Except when he would slip me money when she was not around. *soft smile* Sometimes outside observations of people's relationships is assumptive and annulling.

I think this is where I get confused when taking/co-opting/borrowing/re-defining D/s leather language (i.e. bottom) and using it in vanilla or other flavors of relationships. I see common language as a feature of a "culture" and when I see it out of cultural contest, I have to be the "hanged man" and look from upside down to see from a different point of view. Everyone does that at a different angle and sometimes no matter how many ways I look at it, it just doesn't work for me. But I always try to look.

So, my point is relationships, are like snowflakes, each one unique and beautiful or disgusting in its own little way.



This thread is not a place that I thought to view. I believed that there was nothing for me here. However, one doesn't learn anything by avoiding ...

Your post, Isadora, certainly changed my thinking. What you have is deep and powerful and interrogates the binary traps in which we have a tendency to set for ourselves ... and others. You've planted fertile soil in which to grow. I have learned much from it ... and sense there are things ... yes, for me ... within in which I need to consider. A week's worth of reflection at least ... I'm slow, what can I say? :)

Thanks for eloquent way of saying it, and thanks to WB for starting this thread ...

[bigbutchmistie]

Great thread... :)

[Martina]

hey Martina!!!

i have become very fond of styling Ms's hair for Her. She has been very patient while i have learned to use the Chi. i have often thought about teaching myself how to give Her a pedicure. when She allows me to rub Her feet i use this

http://img.walgreens.com/dbimagecache/73554110301_450x450_a.jpg

i also wanted to add that i have never in my life styled hair or anything in the beauty/style related in service before...i was really nervous using that Chi...it is hot!!! burning Her does not feel good and makes me want to crawl in a hole when i have. my point is She is super forgiving and patient and i am lucky to have a Ms that allows me the space to gain value in giving up something. it makes me trust in her direction of Our/our relationship so my acts come to Her more willingly. hope that makes sense.

Thank You. i will mention the product to Her. She is a lover of essential oils, and we use those a lot, depending on the mood. There is also a balm, whose name i have forgotten. :( i will let You know.

There is a lot to be said for a bare handed rub though, i think. i love that transition from a tight foot to something soft, warm and relaxed.

That's awesome about learning how to do hair. That's a valuable skill! Yes, my Ma'am is patient too. She has to be -- to be my Dominant. i want to learn more about massage, but the classes are so expensive.

i love caring for and worshipping Her feet. Something extra special in that with a Femme Dominant.

A former Femme Dominant had me shave her pussy. Now THAT was scary the first couple of times. But fun! ;)

Performing body service for a Femme IS intoxicating.

[Mitmo01]

This is def our house and our dynamic....wanted to bump this up a while ago....I know that this type of dynamic is unusual in that it is not in the majority but i suspect its more common then we know....

my Ms and I are going to deeper levels in exploring our boundaries and our wiring so to speak and it feels very liberating for me....

[Angelika]

No posts here since FEB 2011? Either we do not have many in this type of relationship on BFP, or, they would rather have their nails pulled out than admit it openly *grins*. Be that as it may, I myself have been absent from BFP for a long while, and on that note, returning, I shall post here for my first 'return' post.

I agree with Isadora ... it has been around for ages. Not all 'Femme led' dynamics are D/s or BDSM, and of course, at the same time, not all 'Femme led' dynamics that hold components of D/s or BDSM, are 'Femme led' outside of such parameters. That is the beauty of all relationships, the uniqueness. In my case, all components are usually present, but much also depends on my willingness to engage.

I have no personal issues frolicking within the fold of 'vanilla' as da Boss where no D/s or BDSM takes place, nor do I go screaming into the night in frustration when I cannot beat some flesh or have my toes sucked in the shadowy flickers of candlelight. I do have issues if I am not da Boss though *laughs*

I love being the Head of the Household (for the lack of a better term), may it be within, or outside the lines of D/s (or BDSM). It carries with it the responsibilities, of course, but more so than anything, its openly empowering on so many levels.

Ah yes, dressed in pantyhose, a dark suit where the skirt stops just above the knees, pencil kind, the blouse almost sheer, hinting, but not showing; stilettos that make you afraid you will step on your boobage at age 60 if you do not wear a bra now; hair piled up, loosely cascading, inviting yet with a 'hands off' sign invisibly attached; small half mooned glasses perched at the end of the nose, looking over them at some unsuspecting Butch ... and not saying a word. Perhaps leaning against the doorway of a car repair shop, or standing casually in a boardroom setting, or waking up to sunlight streaming through my window and the smell of coffee assaulting my nostrils ... waiting, and knowing.

Oh the endless possibilities in a Femme led world!!!!

Angelika

[Sachita]

I'm reading and watching. I'm in this type of relationship right now. We always had this type of dynamic even as friends. There is no struggle and it's very peaceful having the parameters defined. My BDSM days are over... not saying I'm not kinky, just not into the lifestyle or serious SM play but enjoy a natural femdom dynamic. I honestly think it's part of who I am. It's both sexual and spiritual for me.

I am a natural born alpha femme and although I can exist in an intelligent BF relationship, I flourish when I lead and the other appreciates that.

More later

[Sachita]

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.

In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

I read this again and took some time really thinking about it. As you know the "scene" was a very large part of my life some years ago. Traditional relationships were not enough for me and I stepped into a reality I created based on female domination which was a combination of my sexual and spiritual needs. For whatever reason I needed the healing of power exchange and that shaped me to be the woman I am today.

I've stepped into several dynamics and lived many lives just in this lifetime. Although I sexually open-minded and experienced in all level of physical and mental types of play- bdsm, role-play, sm, I honestly never really placed myself totally into the bdsm lifestyle, per se. They were elements of it I found exciting but it was the exchange of power, the mental dynamics of "feminine power exchange" that kept me interested. Even when I started dating in the BF community I found myself drawn to those who accepted my natural dominance and was ok with me maintaining general control over our day to day. I am a strong woman who wakes up calculating my every move and use to making decisions and taking most of responsibility. Normally I am also the one that earns the most income and feel more comfortable making most of the decisions for our home. The only time I don't need to be in control if the bedroom. This is not to say I can't swing into almost any direction. I can, but now I am finding that I don't need the kinky games as much as I did when I was younger. It's more about the day to day dynamic and when it comes to intimacy I want it to be soft, bonding and comfortable for both of us. If my partner needs something I am happy to give it to them no matter what it is but my needs are fairly simple when it comes to having an orgasm.

But you're right... we all travel across that polarity. My base energy may be one way but I swing in different directions based on my needs at the moment. Perhaps this is what makes relationships so difficult? The expectation and counting on someone to always be the same rather then being able to ride and shift with them? Perhaps there is a special chemistry that allows us to accept each other no matter what the moment unfolds.

I have always been and will always be a natural alpha femme. Although you can attempt to keep me somewhat bridled it would be a shame to do this. My passions and creativity lie in my natural dominance. If you learn to feed it, seduce it you unleash the most amazing woman. This I have learn and shall not forget.

There is a huge misconception that a masculine butch can not be with an alpha femme. The truth is that the strongest people I know prefer allowing someone else to be in control. Not because they can't step up to it but prefer not to. They don't really give a shit what people think and they know who they are. A warrior fights for his Queen and subjugates himself because he adores her not because he is weak or emasculated.

Reading your post made me think a lot about the past and this has all been very reflective. There were quite a few gay men I had femdom interaction with. It was funny walking into a gay leather bar and seeing a select few groveling around me as if I was royalty. They needed this exchange as much as I did. We all need to really tune into our frequencies rather then allowing our heads to force round pegs into square holes.

[Sachita]

Today I was talking to an ex. This is a very masculine butch alpha type person. We talk every few months and have kept a great friendship going. This person is not submission, by no means but....

After posting in this thread I asked hym today if hy felt I was too dominant or too aggressive and if that was ever a power struggle for hym. We ended things mainly because hy had serious control issues and this constantly became an issue. Hy wanted to always be with me, plan what we did, etc etc and I needed a lot of space. I just don't require being around another human all the time. Hy wanted that perfect little world with wife, kids and white picket fence. That's just not me. but....

hy said that although I was very strong I was the first woman to really seduce hym as a femme. That hy always felt strong and masculine. I was sexually aggressive to a point. I knew what I wanted and how I wanted it. I called it "daddy duty". So even on my back I was in control. Hy said that looking back it was all extremely hot and that today it has shaped hys thinking and hy looks for strong feminine women. Still hy won't let go of the control issue and for us it's like oil and water. I could deal with an alpha type person as long as they weren't that way towards me. I think this is why I'm more drawn to the daddy types because I enjoy a strong partner but I'm like the spoiled little brat girl that always gets her way. I prefer to lead as well.

[Toughy]

by Angelika
Ah yes, dressed in pantyhose, a dark suit where the skirt stops just above the knees, pencil kind, the blouse almost sheer, hinting, but not showing; stilettos that make you afraid you will step on your boobage at age 60 if you do not wear a bra now; hair piled up, loosely cascading, inviting yet with a 'hands off' sign invisibly attached; small half mooned glasses perched at the end of the nose, looking over them at some unsuspecting Butch ... and not saying a word. Perhaps leaning against the doorway of a car repair shop, or standing casually in a boardroom setting, or waking up to sunlight streaming through my window and the smell of coffee assaulting my nostrils ... waiting, and knowing.


Ah yes...............damn woman :sunglass:

[Soft*Silver]

I am in a femdom relationship with someone who is slowly transition MtF. It took me a long time to get over myself and deal with the boundaries I established for myself as a lesbian femme in order for me to accept this lovely relationship. Because he (and yes he still uses the H word) was born male and I am lesbian, people have been quite snotty regarding us. (not here) I have to argue my right to call myself a lesbian. These people mainly piss me off because they want our relationship to be pigeon holed under homophobic and transphobic conditions.

I found so much strength beating down my self inflicted barriers and claiming my right to be who I am. I LOVE packing. I LOVE B&D and have even started getting much more experienced in S&M as well. Physically I was waylaid for a time, but its amazing how creative one can get when one is hungry for power exchanges and all that goes with it.

my gurl has the additional stigma of being caught betwixt and between and having his identity and role questioned. He knows he is betwixt and between and thus, is his reason for keeping the H pronoun. I have never met a more honest and real person in my life.

I have had people call me closeted for being in this relationship. Really? How is this any different than all the other twists and turns of any other person in the LGBT family? I am a lesbian, involved with someone who is transitioning to becoming who he is, a female bodied person. Until then, we accept his male body that serves his femaleness. How is that hard to understand? If you can turn on a light switch, you can turn on your mind to accept this too. Calling me closeted was foundationally transphobic. And I wont accept it...

I have tried to be a submissive femme because thats what I thought would make me happy. It didnt. Once I became real and honest, I came out of my own closet and accepted the FemDom in me. I have never been happier...

I am a FemDom. I am no longer struggling with my own power struggles now that I have accepted who I am and have begun living in this life.

[Sachita]

I am in a femdom relationship with someone who is slowly transition MtF. It took me a long time to get over myself and deal with the boundaries I established for myself as a lesbian femme in order for me to accept this lovely relationship. Because he (and yes he still uses the H word) was born male and I am lesbian, people have been quite snotty regarding us. (not here) I have to argue my right to call myself a lesbian. These people mainly piss me off because they want our relationship to be pigeon holed under homophobic and transphobic conditions.

I found so much strength beating down my self inflicted barriers and claiming my right to be who I am. I LOVE packing. I LOVE B&D and have even started getting much more experienced in S&M as well. Physically I was waylaid for a time, but its amazing how creative one can get when one is hungry for power exchanges and all that goes with it.

my gurl has the additional stigma of being caught betwixt and between and having his identity and role questioned. He knows he is betwixt and between and thus, is his reason for keeping the H pronoun. I have never met a more honest and real person in my life.

I have had people call me closeted for being in this relationship. Really? How is this any different than all the other twists and turns of any other person in the LGBT family? I am a lesbian, involved with someone who is transitioning to becoming who he is, a female bodied person. Until then, we accept his male body that serves his femaleness. How is that hard to understand? If you can turn on a light switch, you can turn on your mind to accept this too. Calling me closeted was foundationally transphobic. And I wont accept it...

I have tried to be a submissive femme because thats what I thought would make me happy. It didnt. Once I became real and honest, I came out of my own closet and accepted the FemDom in me. I have never been happier...

I am a FemDom. I am no longer struggling with my own power struggles now that I have accepted who I am and have begun living in this life.

fuck all the labels. We all move through many spaces to find ourself and enjoy this human experience. Do whatever floats your boat even if its in that moment.

Congrats! its an awesome journey and one you deserve.

[Sachita]

Additionally Softness I'd like to say....(was in a hurry before but feel this is important)

I happen to not only know quite a bit about female domination but MTF within all of its aspects- crossdressing, sissy, TS, full transitions. Men turn to dominant women because they feel trapped by their desires or confused about how they feel. They turn to a dominant mistress to guide them, relinquishing control in order to learn to love the feminine way. Of course many men don't see quite like that but its true. Sex is a very high frequency/vibration. Many men confuse love and sex because of it. In fact many sexual fetishes are much deeper issues or needs that are expressed sexually- masturbation and fantasy, because they just can't figure out the connection between spiritual and sexual. I'm not saying men are stupid, by no means, just that they suffer from the same thing we all do- a society that has taught us shame and taboos. The divine feminine is an essence present in everything we do. Much like yin and yang, we need this to find balance. You've heard the saying "feminine side"? This is a much deeper matter then most realize, at least in my opinion.

It's a wonderful thing to teach love and thats exactly what a well established mistress really does. She shapes and molds his desires to help him be the best human he can be and THEN he is that for her. She is artful at seduction and calculates her strategy even if it means reflecting his fears and constructive forms of manipulation. The privilege of power requires great responsibly and although many can attempt it only a select few ever really become masterful.

IMO a great mistress/goddess has a spiritual foundation. She must travel through so many spaces- light and dark, so ego must be in check and intentions for the good of all. Otherwise you have unbridled power that can harm everything in its path.

I've been queer all my life. I've had many males slaves and although I don't enjoy fucking them or having partner relationships with them I still loved and nurtured them. I'm just drawn to a feminine essence deep within and then sexually attracted to a masculine form. I have only been able to find this in butch women and transgendered 3rd sex humans. In fact many moons ago I met a boy who was born with a cock but every fiber of his being was feminine. He was submissive and one of the most amazing humans Ive ever met. This past little fling of mine was with a submissive ftm who has the tools to become everything he ever wanted but is trapped in depression. He constantly struggles with who he wants to be rather then who he really is. Unfortunately this is pretty common. As a Domina they are drawn to us because they need "permission" and to void the responsibility even if its really what they desire. Does that make sense?

I keep stepping in and out of the femdom world mainly because it just doesn;t encompass everything I need. BDSM and sexual alternatives is not my main motivation. This is not to say that I can't get kinky- I'm just seeking more of a dynamic then a "thing". The femdom/female led/feminine authority dynamic just works for me and somehow I need to just find the right balance. It's very hard to find the right submissive butch who isn't struggling with hys identity and is not only ok with a woman being in control but needs it just as much as I do.

But if it is any constellation you might feel relieved to know that the BDSM community doesn't get caught up in gender. It's easy to find community and acceptance there.

"Wise men still seek Her!"

[Soft*Silver]

there is alot I wish to comment on but am getting ready to go on a mini vacation with my niece and her two boys. I will not be able to attend to this until at least Tuesday, but maybe later. I will get back to it and i appreciate your response, Sachita. Some I nod affirmatively to and some, not but I value your belief. When I get back, lets do more of this ....

[Sachita]

Softness I was thinking about you, about all this and wondered how your femdom relationship was going. I hope you're having fun being treated like a Goddess.

[Gentle Tiger]

Bumping this thread because the discussion is powerful. I believe it was Dreadgeek who started a thread about how to move forward as a community. I think having these types of discussions is one way. So I hope it continues.

[Sachita]

Bumping this thread because the discussion is powerful. I believe it was Dreadgeek who started a thread about how to move forward as a community. I think having these types of discussions is one way. So I hope it continues.


If you have questions or comments, why not enhance the discussion?

[Gentle Tiger]

If you have questions or comments, why not enhance the discussion?

All in due time Sachita. Process quite a bit. And thank you for the prompting to do so.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I often wonder why butch/trans bottoms are viewed as less than by people? Why is surrendering to a woman so hard to swallow? Yet when girl does to anyone masculine or male id'd or aesthetically looks masculine it's a treasure..

[Gentle Tiger]

I've been thinking a lot about this subject. More questions have come to mind than answers. And I have been on a journey of self discovery as of late. Hence, the slowness to post in this thread. I like to think things through before speaking.

One question that I have is why it is that when it comes to discussing Femme led relationships the discussion can't stay on that topic. Why is it that BDSM, D/S, M/S, what the butch/trans needs, etc. always seems to be pushed to the top? It's like we just can't handle a Femme being in charge. The conversations gets clouded with a bunch of noise, kind of like when there is a discussion about a woman being president or a woman of color being on the Supreme Court. We can't talk about her qualities, and accomplishments. It seems the same here. This isn't the first thread dealing with this topic but the results are frequently the same.

We say we love femmes. We adore them. And yet, we can't stay focused when comes to her being the one that the butch/transman follows. Even in 2011, most conversations still spin around the butch/transman being in charge and the sweet, delicate femme being led and protected by them. Please!

The Femme-Butch dance is just as powerful and beautiful as the Butch-Femme dance. Why does it have to fit inside someone's blasted box? The older I get the more I hate boxes and labels. And I'm old (115)! lol We resent, scream and are ready to challenge anyone when forced by the straight world to conform to a particular box and label. Yet we're quick to judge, insult, disrespect those who don't neatly conform to the boxes that some group defined within the LGBT world. Not all femmes can be in charge inside of the relationship. Why? Because some femmes are followers. They need to follow. That makes them happy. But the reverse is also true. Not all femmes can be followers. Why? Because they are natural born leaders. They must be in charge. Following for too long will make them nuts with a few of my friends, grouchy. You can't have two heads. Someone has to lead and someone has to follow. Otherwise there is no dance no matter what kind of relationship you're talking about. I know, I know. There is sharing within a relationship. Decisions are made together. But even then, someone is leading the discussion.

I think somewhere along the line whether consciously or unconsciously oppressed people bring some of the hetero foolishness into their relationships. And I think we as a community at times still think that the butch/transman has to be like the caveman who drags the woman by the hair into the cave, must be the provider, blah, blah, blah. Now I know some will say this is not true. But isn't it? Think about how Femmes are portrayed. I say this based on things that I read these days and conversations I hear. Why can't the Femme be the one dragging the butch/transman by the hair, calling the shots, and being the boss? Well she couldn't drag me by the hair because I have no hair. But I digress. Those who think that a butch/transman is less than because they are able to let a Femme lead in my opinion have bought into the lie that the male/masculine energy (whatever form) must be in charge. In the straight world a man is not a real man if people see that he lets the woman wear the proverbial pants. And yet most honest men will admit the wife is the boss. She calls the shots. And more often than not I hear butches and transmen admitting that their wife, girlfriend, lady friend or whatever descriptor they use runs the show. So what's the problem. We still haven't let go of the traditional mentality - male means being first and in charge.

A Femme led relationship in my opinion is not about being a top, bottom or flipping. I've always despised the term flipping. I am not a pancake for crying out loud! Ok, back to the subject. It 's about how people are wired. And doing what it takes to dance with joy. I am attracted to and need a strong, brilliant, sexy Femme for many reasons. And understanding that, I also know that if she has the qualities I am looking for she will be in charge. That's part of the dance between she and I. That will not take away from who I am, what I bring to the table, and what I need while at the table. I know this will put me in a less than position in the minds of some. And quite frankly I don't give a flying ****. Ahem! I'm back.

I am a complicated transman. I am strong person. I am a Daddy. I am a boy. I am a leader. And I have no problem with a Femme calling the shots. There are, however, things that need to be in place in order for me to relax and follow her lead. I will not go into them here since I am not the subject of this thread. I have to say this was not always my position. But growing spiritually and just plain growing up has helped me shed a lot of layers and a lot of junk that has kept me from being who I wish to be and enjoying what I wish to enjoy.

Thank you Weatherboi for starting this thread. You have played a part in my journey. So thank you my brother!

[Gentle Tiger]

Yes! Yes! Yes June!
This is exactly what I mean. Thank you!

[Sachita]

In this Femme led relationship, I am very aware that I must earn the right to be in charge of the things that are important to me, and for us as a couple. I have not always been good at negotiating rather than just assuming and taking without giving as much back to her -- But it is a journey and a process to get both what you want and need out of any relationship, and I look at it very much as a Free Will deal.

When she goes out to the car for the ninth time to get something, or brings me something to drink or does any of the dozens of things I ask her to, it has to be because she is getting something out of it. Delicious meals, a pretty house, a nice garden, a tidy non-chaotic environment, reciprocal love, the way I look at her from across the room that lets her know even after all this time, she's still the one.

Awwwwww.

well said June!

when people talk about exchange of power I wonder if they realize the full extent of it or how complex it can become. Wanton boi is very comfortable being submissive, even turned on by it but I also reinforce and nurture that. Although hy is the one fetching things, cleaning, waiting on my hand and foot, I often show hym my appreciation. I am providing a wonderful home, good healthy food and an environment for hym to grow. There's a big price to be with me but I also offer a lot. Hy will tell you that hy feels safe, loved and cherished. Even as friends I give this to hym.

Maybe its just my perception but I don't see butch needs being a priority. Feminine energy trumps masculine in my world. A seductive and willful femme knows exactly how to get what she wants. She doesn't need to do this with force. Women are in control in so many ways even if she's on her knees. It's a fact.

GT I do know what your saying and it may appear that way but I also know, having been in BF culture many many moons, that plenty of femmes rule the roost so to speak. In fact I think femme relationships are pretty common.

As an spiritually evolved woman I have many aspects to me. This includes a sexually passive slut, goddess bitch diva, little girl, brat, seductress, mommy and more. They can surface at any time and demand their space. I allow them to express themselves and nurture my relationships to enjoy them. I don't need to be Mistress/Goddess/alpha all the time, although it does encompass the base essence of me and always present to some degree.

[Sachita]

also Wanton boi says that I have a lot of masculine energy rolled into my femme persona. Even at my most passive this is present.

[Gemme]

also Wanton boi says that I have a lot of masculine energy rolled into my femme persona. Even at my most passive this is present.

I have to ask, seeing as how this discussion has flowed recently and folks are opening up a bit more, would this be the opposite of what the thread celebrates?

I'm sorry if I'm not wording things well. I can feel the question in my head but it's just not coming to fruition the way I'd like.

I have no issues with masculine energy. Celebrate it, even. But isn't the point of this thread....or at least one of them....to concentrate on the feminine energy in the relationship? Can't feminine energy be aggressive and/or strong without being masculine? If not, then we're right back at the start, saying masculine/male is the only/right way and that feminine/female/femme is secondary.

Am I making sense?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

[Gentle Tiger]

I have to ask, seeing as how this discussion has flowed recently and folks are opening up a bit more, would this be the opposite of what the thread celebrates?

I'm sorry if I'm not wording things well. I can feel the question in my head but it's just not coming to fruition the way I'd like.

I have no issues with masculine energy. Celebrate it, even. But isn't the point of this thread....or at least one of them....to concentrate on the feminine energy in the relationship? Can't feminine energy be aggressive and/or strong without being masculine? If not, then we're right back at the start, saying masculine/male is the only/right way and that feminine/female/femme is secondary.

Am I making sense?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Gemme -- I think that when we use "Masculine" energy, which has been used to describe me before, and I have also used it, it's because we don't have the language for describing "Dominant Femme" that fully spectrumizes (tm) what we are.

I have been thinking about that a lot for the past couple of years, actually. It's not Masculine if we're Femmes. It's not necessarily (but can be) Top energy. It's unique and powerful and full of woooooooo. ;)


Gemme, your question makes a lot of sense. And this has been one of my questions. Perhaps I am once again over simplifying things. But why does there have to be additional language? You're Femme. You prefer to be in charge. Therefore, you're a femme who requires being in charge. If you're a femme and you're dominant then you're a dominant femme. And if you're a femme and a natural born leader then you're a femme natural born leader. No additional language needed. It has nothing to do with being masculine. It's still all about being femme.

Now I do recognize that for some to say that they have masculine energy or their male side comes out is an accurate statement. Of course it is! They would know. But that strikes me as separate from the fact that they are in charge or the boss or whatever descriptor is used when talking about Femme led relationships. Help me understand.

It seems that the masculine energy/male side is separate just like BDSM, D/s, M/s, etc. is separate from this conversation. I get that we (human beings) have both male and female within us. But that isn't what makes you the boss right? I know that people describe those characteristics as male when seen but is that really an accurate classification?

Taking a seat to listen and learn. Thanks for letting me be a participant.

[apretty]

Come on now--Aren't they all femme-led?

[Random]

Gemme, your question makes a lot of sense. And this has been one of my questions. Perhaps I am once again over simplifying things. But why does there have to be additional language? You're Femme. You prefer to be in charge. Therefore, you're a femme who requires being in charge. If you're a femme and you're dominant then you're a dominant femme. And if you're a femme and a natural born leader then you're a femme natural born leader. No additional language needed. It has nothing to do with being masculine. It's still all about being femme.

Now I do recognize that for some to say that they have masculine energy or their male side comes out is an accurate statement. Of course it is! They would know. But that strikes me as separate from the fact that they are in charge or the boss or whatever descriptor is used when talking about Femme led relationships. Help me understand.

It seems that the masculine energy/male side is separate just like BDSM, D/s, M/s, etc. is separate from this conversation. I get that we (human beings) have both male and female within us. But that isn't what makes you the boss right? I know that people describe those characteristics as male when seen but is that really an accurate classification?

Taking a seat to listen and learn. Thanks for letting me be a participant.

For me... My dominant energy is neither masculine nore feminine... It simply is energy... For me the closest I can come to putting it into words is.. I AM... I am confident, I am secure, I am certain.... It has nothing to do with gender or how I ID

Ps... thank you for your post Gemmie.. I came back to respond to it, but decided to do a two for one...

[Sachita]

For me... My dominant energy is neither masculine nore feminine... It simply is energy... For me the closest I can come to putting it into words is.. I AM... I am confident, I am secure, I am certain.... It has nothing to do with gender or how I ID

Ps... thank you for your post Gemmie.. I came back to respond to it, but decided to do a two for one...


but just for the record those attributes of confidence etc can also be found in submissive energy.

No to deny masculine or make it seem less than but there is something divine and sacred about Goddess energy. It encompasses a natural projection of so many things- bitch, lover, mother, whore....dark and light. The women that adopt this, nurture and cultivate are alpha and solicit control. Its part of their fiber. Calling me a dominant woman barely scratches my surface. I am so much more.

Should you (anyone) ever encounter one that could seduce that goddess essence in you it just might chance your life.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't have anything "male" in my energy, masculine yes but not male so therefore my Woman led, Femme Led, Domina led relationships are simply that. Woman in charge of it all... My masculinity may be there because it's part of who I am yet it certainly is not the Commander of any of my vessels (heh).

I just am.....

Originally Posted by apretty http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=407825#post407825)

Come on now--Aren't they all femme-led?
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```

I would like to think we are a Matriarch run world, unfortunately it's not <sad face insert> what I do see is the thought that girl has <insert pronoun> wrapped around her.his.hys.zi's finger. Which to me is different than actually having reigns of the goings on of the relationship.

We can think we own a panther, the reality is that panther can at anytime turn and make us lunch.

I'm not wrapped around no one's finger, if anything I am the one who pulls the strings for every movement...

[Sachita]

I don't have anything "male" in my energy, masculine yes but not male so therefore my Woman led, Femme Led, Domina led relationships are simply that. Woman in charge of it all... My masculinity may be there because it's part of who I am yet it certainly is not the Commander of any of my vessels (heh).

I just am.....

Originally Posted by apretty http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=407825#post407825)

Come on now--Aren't they all femme-led?
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```

I would like to think we are a Matriarch run world, unfortunately it's not <sad face insert> what I do see is the thought that girl has <insert pronoun> wrapped around her.his.hys.zi's finger. Which to me is different than actually having reigns of the goings on of the relationship.

We can think we own a panther, the reality is that panther can at anytime turn and make us lunch.

I'm not wrapped around no one's finger, if anything I am the one who pulls the strings for every movement...

love this. Exactly how I feel and the reality I wish to create.

[JustJo]

Gemme -- I think that when we use "Masculine" energy, which has been used to describe me before, and I have also used it, it's because we don't have the language for describing "Dominant Femme" that fully spectrumizes (tm) what we are.

I have been thinking about that a lot for the past couple of years, actually. It's not Masculine if we're Femmes. It's not necessarily (but can be) Top energy. It's unique and powerful and full of woooooooo. ;)

I'm finding this thread interesting reading and will post more fully when I've gotten my words in order...but...for now, what June said struck me.

There is nothing whatsoever masculine or male about me. When it comes to the bedroom, there is nothing of a Top about me either.

However, I embrace what I call my "pushy broad".

I am all femme, all female, and all feminine....and I am strong, stubborn, willful, and in charge. I am a planner and a problem solver, as well as creative and intelligent. For a long time, I thought I had to hide those things...and I did. At almost 50 and with a long history of deferring to others who generally fucked it up and I ended up fixing it....I don't anymore.

There's a reason I'm a project manager professionally. I'm damn good at it. I organize people, keep them on track, keep them moving, prod them in the ass when they need it (nicely of course :) ), hold them back when they need that, squelch the ones that need to shut up, encourage the ones that need to speak, and hold their feet to the fire for those that need that, too.

So....think me arrogant if you like...but yes, I generally do have the answer or the vision of what we need to do and how we should get there.

Do I think I'm better or more enlightened than others? No. I am fully aware that other people have skills, knowledge and talents that I don't. And I'm happy to listen, absorb and applaud those things. Professionally, I depend on people having knowledge or skills that I don't....I need them, and I use them, to get the job done.

Personally, it's not that different. I actively encourage the people around me to do their best, develop their gifts, express what they want so we can experience or accomplish that. What I won't do is be a passive partner, sit on my hands, shut my mouth and go along.

For a long time, I felt that the problem I had in relationships is that I needed to find someone stronger than me to be the lead. Now? Not so much.

I'll come back later, after coffee, when I'm more awake. :)

[Dominique]

Come on now--Aren't they all femme-led?

Succinctly, I have always said this. If it is not all about us, it is for us.

[Isadora]

All though we joke about it, they are not all femme led...just as all relationships are not butch/male/masculine led. I think I am just me. The oldest of ten children who had a very ill mother and I took charge. Is it innate? Probably. Was it necessary for me and my siblings to survive? Definitely. Did it make me skilled at organizing and socializing? Why, yes it did. Did it make me bossy? Why, yes it did that, too.

But it also made me listen, nurture, kiss boo boos, fix skates, hammer forts, go to parent/teacher conferences and feed 11 people on 2 lbs of hamburger. (Think "Shameless" without the sex, alcohol or drugs.) I had to set priorities early...do I go to prom and spend money on a dress or do I pay for Tom's math tutor? We always talk about leadership like it is dominant. Leadership is many things and many many studies have been done on what it means...but being a leader in my relationship is not about dominance it is about openess to serve with the skills that are both innate and learned. I provide the direction, the social calendar, the emotional support, make important decisions but my partner is not like a minion waiting for my next command. LOL Leadership is more than bossing people around or telling them what to do. Leadership is listening. Leadership is coaxing. Leadership is laying down. Leadership is admitting skills (both held and lacking). Leadership is realizing that people are complicated and messy.

Leadership in a relationship also is about love and loving. Love is not a rigid board of perfect design. Love is part of how I am. I am not perfect at anything, but Love makes my femme led relationships a playful dragonfly of grace in a field of sweet clover.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Sometimes I like Grant to be my minion at my every beck and call, that's how it rolls when I'm in the mood, that's the beauty of these power exchange relationships for *me*. I can do, say, act like I want because I have consent and it gets us all off or we just plain like it.

[atomiczombie]

All though we joke about it, they are not all femme led...just as all relationships are not butch/male/masculine led. I think I am just me. The oldest of ten children who had a very ill mother and I took charge. Is it innate? Probably. Was it necessary for me and my siblings to survive? Definitely. Did it make me skilled at organizing and socializing? Why, yes it did. Did it make me bossy? Why, yes it did that, too.

But it also made me listen, nurture, kiss boo boos, fix skates, hammer forts, go to parent/teacher conferences and feed 11 people on 2 lbs of hamburger. (Think "Shameless" without the sex, alcohol or drugs.) I had to set priorities early...do I go to prom and spend money on a dress or do I pay for Tom's math tutor? We always talk about leadership like it is dominant. Leadership is many things and many many studies have been done on what it means...but being a leader in my relationship is not about dominance it is about openess to serve with the skills that are both innate and learned. I provide the direction, the social calendar, the emotional support, make important decisions but my partner is not like a minion waiting for my next command. LOL Leadership is more than bossing people around or telling them what to do. Leadership is listening. Leadership is coaxing. Leadership is laying down. Leadership is admitting skills (both held and lacking). Leadership is realizing that people are complicated and messy.

Leadership in a relationship also is about love and loving. Love is not a rigid board of perfect design. Love is part of how I am. I am not perfect at anything, but Love makes my femme led relationships a playful dragonfly of grace in a field of sweet clover.

I love this. And, it really resonates with me in terms of my own style of dominance. I really shy away from the "power over" model. My dominance is about care-taking as well as getting the responses that I want from a sub. The care taking is part of what gets me off. That is not to say that I can't at times be a strict disciplinarian, lol. But caring is a significant part of it. Thanks for sharing this! :D

[The_Lady_Snow]

I love this. And, it really resonates with me in terms of my own style of dominance. I really shy away from the "power over" model. My dominance is about care-taking as well as getting the responses that I want from a sub. The care taking is part of what gets me off. That is not to say that I can't at times be a strict disciplinarian, lol. But caring is a significant part of it. Thanks for sharing this! :D



This really isn't a thread about male led relationships drew may I ask why you had to clarify your style of dominance here?

[weatherboi]

This really isn't a thread about male led relationships drew may I ask why you had to clarify your style of dominance here?


I'd hate to see this thread turn into yet another thread about how butches and transguys lead- can we please respect the topic here which is:

Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'd hate to see this thread turn into yet another thread about how butches and transguys lead- can we please respect the topic here which is:

Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms



Thank you!!!!! :hk2:

[Apocalipstic]

Come on now--Aren't they all femme-led?

While I would like to think this statement true, the expectation seems to be that the Femme defer in a 50's housewife way to the Butch or Transguy...which can cause relationship friction for someone like me, who likes to run the show for the most part.

It occurs to me that maybe you have been better at finding partners who recognize your power than I have. I have encountered more desire to "break my spirit". It could be the difference in location and age between us?

I find with younger Butches I have had better luck finding Butches not so ready to do the pissing contest thing with me....Not saying older Butches are bad, just that I have not connected with the right one and younger people seem more open minded.

So glad to see this discussion happening again!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Me too Apocalipstic!!! It's a great thread for Femmes Who Lead be' it full time, part time, in D/s not D/s ALL forms to discuss and also it gives the people on the end of The leash (if that's your thing) a place to discuss and share experiences!

[Apocalipstic]

Me too Apocalipstic!!! It's a great thread for Femmes Who Lead be' it full time, part time, in D/s not D/s ALL forms to discuss and also it gives the people on the end of The leash (if that's your thing) a place to discuss and share experiences!

You know I love a good leash! :)

[weatherboi]

Leadership in Our/our house does not always come from a Dominant space. Even if my Ms is sick in bed (probably not feeling to dominant but still a Dominant), i am running this house under Her scheduled direction from Her sick space. i don't have the option to run it my way. That was the deal and i consented to it. i get that She does somethings and i do others because of Our/our individual talents, but She decides all this and directs it. She could very easily assign me to a task that isn't suited for me, something i don't like :), and sit back and watch me suffer. It is up to Her. She has different compartments that run this household and They are all definitely leaders. Lucky me!!!

[Soft*Silver]

Softness I was thinking about you, about all this and wondered how your femdom relationship was going. I hope you're having fun being treated like a Goddess.


Hello Sachita and all others reading this thread. My femdom relationship is going well. He is above board in his service to me. He has extensive experience, far beyond anything I could ever imagine, and brings it humbly to me to honor my needs. Being sickly again, his service is needed more in a caretaking role at the moment. I adore him and am grateful for his devotion.

I dont expect anyone to treat me like a Goddess except me. I take that role upon myself. I spoil me and indulge me and meet my own needs, especially if its by finding the right people to be around me. As for foot rubs or having my porch painted, those are negotiable items. I ask for nothing I would not be extremely appreciative of. None of it is ever expected out of foolish whimsical "show me you love me" shit. I dont need to be loved. Seriously. When you love yourself well, like I have discovered to do, you dont need to have anyone prove their love to you. When someone is in my life, they are there because I want them to be there. Very very few people are there for any other reason. And those are mostly non social contacts.

I also see people discussing masculine energy. I use to think I didnt have any. Then I put a cock on. Hah. I am still a femme but something bended around inside me and I got to see how not different I was to the masculined version of humans I am. For a long time after packing for the first time, I would look in the mirrors as I passed them as tho I were seeing myself for the first time. I embrace who I am and dont get caught up in the pronouns of our language. I know I am not the girl I once thought I was...

[atomiczombie]

I read Drew as resonating with what was posted and responding to it. I do that sometimes too. Ooops. :)

What June said.

[The_Lady_Snow]

What June said.



Thanks for understanding Drew:)






Have you any experiences you can share in this dynamic?

Are you a supporter of this dynamic? Do you participate in a Fem Led Relationship now, before, you may want to in the future?

[atomiczombie]

Thanks for understanding Drew:)






Have you any experiences you can share in this dynamic?

Are you a supporter of this dynamic? Do you participate in a Fem Led Relationship now, before, you may want to in the future?

I support the dynamic in that I think femme led relationships are every bit as valid as any other type. I am an egalitarian at heart, although some have misread me to not be so. I have never been in a femme led relationship - that sort just isn't for me, personally. I just really liked what Isadora had to say and it resonated with me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks for the support, it's appreciated and needed! :)

I support the dynamic in that I think femme led relationships are every bit as valid as any other type. I am an egalitarian at heart, although some have misread me to not be so. I have never been in a femme led relationship - that sort just isn't for me, personally. I just really liked what Isadora had to say and it resonated with me.

[Sachita]

I dont expect anyone to treat me like a Goddess except me. I take that role upon myself. I spoil me and indulge me and meet my own needs, especially if its by finding the right people to be around me. As for foot rubs or having my porch painted, those are negotiable items. I ask for nothing I would not be extremely appreciative of. None of it is ever expected out of foolish whimsical "show me you love me" shit. I dont need to be loved. Seriously. When you love yourself well, like I have discovered to do, you dont need to have anyone prove their love to you. When someone is in my life, they are there because I want them to be there. Very very few people are there for any other reason. And those are mostly non social contacts.



I understand your point. It's not a question of need for me. Truth is I don't really need anyone and I love myself. It's not proof I require but an expectation or standard I've acquired and it sooooooo enhances the dynamic.

I'm happy for you. You totally deserve it

[Gentle Tiger]

Can I just say I am really enjoying this thread? Ok, good.
I am enjoying this thread. :glasses: Makes you think. And critical thinking, contrary to popular belief is a good thing.

[Martina]

But doncha just love it when you can make Her feel like a god?

i am in a femme-led poly D/s relationship. i like it that i am the only one in Her life who can help Her feel THAT particular way.

[DamonK]

Keep in mind MBE and I are switches... And since it can be hard, J is the switch side of me...

We've gone through changes. Some bad, some good. I had to have an attitude adjustment. And she had to learn some nasty lessons. We stepped back into an equal role, yet at the same time I always know who is in charge. I ask for permission to do things -- sometimes. If it goes outside the scope of my reality, which is really too hard to explain, I ask for permission.

The one thing that never changed is the feeling of her strength over me when I can't do it anymore.

Last week, I found out I was, in many ways, disowned by my parents for being trans. I'm not welcome home, that's for sure. As a result, being dominant is proving to be almost impossible. I can at times, but most of the time, I just can't right now.

Lucky for me, she understands what I'm going through and is such an amazing person.

What amazes me is that, being switches, when I can't; she can and vice versa.

For now, she leads. And I follow. I trust that she is capable of holding her own and she trusts I'm doing okay. As my dominant, she is my strength.

For us, I guess that's what it comes down to.

[JustJo]

Succinctly, I have always said this. If it is not all about us, it is for us.

I've been mulling over this post Yellow Band because when I read it, I literally laughed out loud.

I'm a pushy leader....but most of what I do (professionally and in relationships) is actually for the others around me. In an odd way, I serve from the front.

Hard to explain....but....in a relationship I will annoy the hell out of any partner who wants to passively sit and do nothing...who has no goals...who has no vision for their life. I would drive them nuts (and vice versa) because I am all about "who are you? what do you want? where are you going? what do you dream about doing? what will make you happy?"....and then I will kick your ass to get you there.

It isn't for me. It isn't about me. It's about the other....and I have this compelling need to drag, push or pull them (if necessary) to their joy.

Make sense?

My son just turned 14...and he'll tell you that he wants to form his own company, design computer games, possibly get his PhD and teach (and have his interns work for free on his projects)....ahhhh....he's his mother's son. :) He wants to learn Mandarin Chinese (he's already learning Spanish); wants to live overseas at some point; wants to travel all over the world. He's had a lifetime of my influence, and it shows. He has goals. He has ambition. He wants to accomplish big things.

It isn't that we have to always be doing and busy. We don't. We have "pajama days" when we do nothing at all (including getting dressed). I see nothing wrong with enjoying a TV show, or floating in the pool, or playing with the animals.

I just don't want his, or my, or your (if we're in a relationship) life to be only that. I won't settle, and I'm not comfortable letting the people around me settle either.

[The_Lady_Snow]

My daughter Ria says I'm the head of the Octopus and the rest of the pack are the tentacles together we work as one!!! I'm a micormanager so being involved for me works, it may seem I'm to demanding, harsh, not mushy enough but our end results are great and we're all happy and things run smoothly on all fronts!

[Random]

but just for the record those attributes of confidence etc can also be found in submissive energy.

No to deny masculine or make it seem less than but there is something divine and sacred about Goddess energy. It encompasses a natural projection of so many things- bitch, lover, mother, whore....dark and light. The women that adopt this, nurture and cultivate are alpha and solicit control. Its part of their fiber. Calling me a dominant woman barely scratches my surface. I am so much more.

Should you (anyone) ever encounter one that could seduce that goddess essence in you it just might chance your life.

See... I wouldn't have described submissive energy with those words.... For me submissive feels , still, empty, waiting, open....

Using energy... I am the current, she is the recepticle

I understand what you mean about goddess essence/energy but for me it's different... It's more natural/ animalistic... There is no good or bad, no dark or light... It simply is..

[The_Lady_Snow]

See... I wouldn't have described submissive energy with those words.... For me submissive feels , still, empty, waiting, open....

Using energy... I am the current, she is the recepticle

I understand what you mean about goddess essence/energy but for me it's different... It's more natural/ animalistic... There is no good or bad, no dark or light... It simply is..




Primal.... Yes, I like it primal till I don't!

WOOF

[Sachita]

Many thoughts on my mind lately about femme led relationships. I think I am misunderstood most of the time. Or perhaps I confuse people. I'm a playful woman and sometimes a bit of a flirt. If I want you you'll be the first to know. lol

I posted something in the Listening to Each Other thread about someone telling me they "liked" me but heard "bad" stories about me being a dom. At first I rolled my eyes and laughed just at the sheer absurdity of the statement. This drama rumor crap is just something I will never wrap my head around.

I hate labels. I don't want to be called a dom or anything else. I am woman who is sexually and spiritually mature. I am alpha, I enjoy control but it doesn't always mean the same thing. Why do people automatically think that I want you as a wet rag, groveling at my feet with no opinions of your own? Why can't I just be an intelligent, strong woman who enjoys being treated well?

Each relationship is different as it forms into a dynamic. I don't care who you are, if there's any kind of chemistry you'll find what fits you. This might manifest many different ways and some may be extreme. My relationship with Wanton Boi continues to evolve and is always changing. We are friends but not always lovers but we always love. Its nice to be real enough with someone to say "I'm feeling needy today and need some pampering." hys reply would be "I'd love to be your bitch today." No drama, no games, just two people comforting one another. At the same time I don't close doors because hy needs something different.

Perhaps I could fall in love with another alpha and I have. I just need to be respected for the woman I am and not engage in power struggles because someone is threatened. Let's find how we best fit and enjoy the places we are compatible.

[Sachita]

Oh and the primal thing.... I love tapping that but admit it doesn't come around often enough. It's rare to share space with another human who can leave all the outside shit outside and get get down to the essence of sexual energy.

[Tawse]

great thread!

If someone were to ask - I'd say I was a switch (both D/s and S/M), however my soul for lack of a better word - is firmly rooted in the submission and masochism part of the equation.

I absolutely love taking care of the wife, pampering her, spoiling her, following her agenda, itinerary, rules, regulations, whims... you name it. And don't get me started on masochism ;)

It's been good reading through this thread though it's also been a sobering wake up call.

Trying to figure out how to word this.

Gillian and I just are how we are in person. I am naturally submissive to her and it's pretty damn hard not to notice it. I get no flack from people in real life and I honestly don't know if they think less of me - but if they do they don't have the stupidity to approach me about it... so good for them! lol

I was in SL for a bit - and it wasn't a problem there either, but that may be because for some odd reason (not intentional by any means) the people we hung around had either a similar mindset, or they didn't give a rats ass about it.

I haven't since I've been here read anything that was derogatory as far as someone being butch and submissive... I have read some "ooook" statements about femmes and cocks though..

But anyway - this thread has both been fun, and a reminder that there are idiots out there and that apparently I've surrounded myself with a great group of people that have allowed me to pretty much forget the idiocity of others in regards to this situation.

[Tawse]

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but since I've been more and more active on the Planet I've noticed something and it perplexed me.

All the hating on Femme Cocks, Femme Dominance/Leadership... and I'll take everyone's word for it, Butch bottoms and by association with the Femme cock - Butches who take cock.

I was trying to figure out why this was such a wake up call for me and I think I may have figured it out.

I left the online "GLBTQI" community in favor of the BDSM community.

I remember back in the MSN chat room days - we had to fight like dogs to be able to discuss BDSM in the open room while in gay chat rooms. Then there was the ostracism of the B&Fs, and those who didn't call themselves Lesbian.. those who weren't born female.. and literally anything else under the sun that the lesbian police could think of to bully you about.

And it didn't stop online - the bars I went to were full of the same looking people. No one too butch and no one too femme, and if you were then by golly you were sitting at the bar by yourself and chances are you were getting some serious ass stares.

My response? I went to a BDSM bar/club (and forums online). holy shit was that an eye opener. Every single body type, orientation, hell you think of it and it was there. And no one gave a single fucking damn. As long as you followed the protocol and the rules... who gave a shit.

It didn't matter if you were a butch bottom, if you took cock.. if you took cock up the ass.. hell if you took an arm up the ass.. who the fuck cares!! As long as it was consensual (and safe) for both people.

And I admit it - I got used to being in that atmosphere. I forgot about the hating of people who were different than you.

So yeah.. here I am... being reminded. Wow.

Snow - you may not even know it but I owe you an apology. When I first started reading threads I was just blown away (not in a happy fuzzy way lol) at how assertive and aggressive you seemed to be about Femme Cock... I had no idea the bullshit you put up with. You have my apologies.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Tawse,

I too like you found my comfort in the Leather/BDSM world when it came to my gender, who I am, what I am, my sex and kinks. When I hang around my butch,trans,male,women and femme peers amongst this community I don't get shamed or eeewed because I happen to be a Femme Top or because I am proud of my Femme Cock.


Not once have my boys or girl been shamed, dismissed, looked upon as less, criticized, eeewwed because their Ms has a cock.

(BTW there are people here who been incredibly accepting, it's few but they exist and I heart them)

Misogyny, sexism, and machismo are so deeply enrooted in some people that it has leaked into our very own community I find that to be this online community more than the world I live in everyday. I don't know why so many people cling to the binary and heteronormative thinking of what masculine, feminine, cock, femme, butch should be, act like or look like. I don't know why a Femme cock is feared, laughed at, seen as entertainment, riduculed.

Wait, I do know why.. It's continued super imposed heirarchy that continues to be imposed over and over because sex= femme is the receiver only. NO MAS!!!

My aggressiveness and assertiveness is my passion and my fight that I have been doing on these boards for a long time won't end. It's funny how a Femme who is not of a quiet demeanor is viewed this way when protecting or fighthing for her right to also have desires and wants and to be able to freely express them like the butches and ftms on the boards.

We exist, Femme Tops, Bossy girls, Femme's who can rock a cock longer and stronger and sweeter than most, we are here within all the other expressions, desires and kinks that run amok freely without judgement and shame.

Thank you for apologizing and *seeing* that it's not anger, agression that I speak with, it's passion, frustration and WANT that you hear in my voice (words) because damn it my status, my dominance and my cock is just as valid it is not less than just because it's on me a Femme.


PS

I can't even go into how shitty butches, trans guys, boys, bois are treated, it angers me because NOT ONCE is a submissive girl dismissed in the demeanor the boys/bois are. It's just gross homophobic and rude

[Sachita]

I'm feeling a bit isolated these days. I spent a few days away from the farm while Wanton Boi looked after things. To be honest I was feeling pretty predatory (word stolen from a recent conversation with a friend) and needed to project my dominance. Wanton couldn't wait for me to get home so hy could go home and escape the work "I am". Hys words were "I need a few days off." Ok thats cool. But in I was still disappointed. It seems that hy is submissive to me when it suits hym and I've allowed this to happen because it's more then what I had before. These deep feelings in me have awoke and nothing else compares. To be honest I'm a little sad under all that hotness.

Many many moons ago although I did feel comfort in the BDSM community female domination was still frowned upon. My style was spiritual, nurturing and more of an emotional dynamic then physical BDSM play. I had this very strict protocol and it truly was "My way or the highway". I didn't have safewords and my relationships 24/7. Even BDSM'ers found my style a bit unrealistic and concluded that I was full of myself. I enjoy female supremacy as part of my sexual/spiritual scene. I don't really feel that I am superior to everyone else. I just enjoy that whole dynamic with someone. There were few circles I really felt comfortable even within BDSM.

Anyhow I need to sort some things out and was hoping I could share some things here and of course get some feedback. My life, for all intent and purposes, is great! I struggled with a lot of conflict, had a few butch-femme relationships and feel, for the most part, that I know what I want. Still looming is some conflict and fear wondering if what I want truly does exist.

I miss my old life. Especially now with the little dabblings from Wanton Boi. Many parts of me are the same, however I have evolved into a truly multifaceted woman. One who is truly with me needs to be flexible and secure. This is something Wanton is not. I'd like to find something in the middle, if that makes sense. Someone who feels comfortable with me leading and not threatened by it. I love butch boi's but I don't think I can do the stone thing. At the same time I don't always feel the need to wear cock and fuck someone, I prefer being fucked, but if that mood strikes (and it does!) I want them to be receptive.

One of Wanton's biggest complaints about me is that I am often aloof and hard to read. I often am focused on work and I might completely ignore you without thinking about it. I've heard this from others that have served me or been in relationships with. I enjoy my space a lone but I really enjoy someone in the background attending to me. Someone that truly is at my beck and call and enjoys it. Is this selfish?

There are times when I feel a poly relationship, myself and several bottoms, would work best for me. The only problem with this is that I need to "feel" primary and be totally in charge. It doesnt work for me any other way. I don't have jealousy and insecurity like some. It's more of a possession and ownership. Does this make sense?

Finally, I want to explore more of these types of relationships even if they are on a limited basis. Living in the country makes dating so hard as it is. I truly am a subculture within a subculture. Where do you feel is the best place to explore and find others of like mind? Is it me or is it hard finding femme lead folks in the queer community? I would also enjoy a more private venue. I dislike that anyone can come here and read the forums without being registered. Its not that I have anything to hide but prefer my private stuff private.

[The_Lady_Snow]

why not just get a part time service boi or girl without an expectation since you can't commit 100%? Perhaps there is a boy or girl out there that is willing to be around when the mood strikes you and can make themselves available with little maintenance and with the same aloofness you have. It is possible to have this, a boi or girl without a lot of hands on time or grooming time put into them, it can be negotiated as such. Fet life is a good place to look if you are unwilling to do your local BDSM scene. I would have some references ready in case something comes of your search.

I read your thoughts on how the boi you are doing stuff with left after taking care of your place while you vacationed and you were unable to project your dominance on them, I would have to guess it's because maybe hy.he was tired and figured his duties were done and he too needed something which may have been rest.

Have you tried negotiating with present person in your life??

[Sachita]

why not just get a part time service boi or girl without an expectation since you can't commit 100%? Perhaps there is a boy or girl out there that is willing to be around when the mood strikes you and can make themselves available with little maintenance and with the same aloofness you have. It is possible to have this, a boi or girl without a lot of hands on time or grooming time put into them, it can be negotiated as such. Fet life is a good place to look if you are unwilling to do your local BDSM scene. I would have some references ready in case something comes of your search.

I read your thoughts on how the boi you are doing stuff with left after taking care of your place while you vacationed and you were unable to project your dominance on them, I would have to guess it's because maybe hy.he was tired and figured his duties were done and he too needed something which may have been rest.

Have you tried negotiating with present person in your life??


All good ideas but my brain is muddled. To be honest I probably need to evaluate what I'm actually looking for. I think I need something more intimate. My dominance is part of my love and sex today. Lately I have not explore service only subs but I suppose I could. In the past I was even cool with friendships that had that little "something-something" so I will try and tap into that. This is what Wanton always was for me but this last time things became more intense and emotional.

Yes, I am very clear about my expectations and open to communicate. I am VERY patient and flexible to a degree. Wanton is mentally unstable with some issues with depression. I've always known this and threaded lightly keeping this in mind, however hy has hys own perception and lately keeps changing our relationship. It's getting exhausting. Hy has also been playing these little passive aggressive games to get a reaction from me. I am a "cards on the table" type of woman. If you want something from me you need to ask. I also make it clear what I am willing and not willing to do. Our base arrangement is me paying hys rent, hym coming daily to work and that is the primary base of our relationship. Then we are friends and the days hy chooses to be submissive towards me hy does. It's a bit of a roller coaster and although I don't totally blame hym I would say hy is responsible for the bulk of it.

As for hym being tired.... If that was it then I would certainly understand. Hy had help and not that much to do. Hy has a drug problem and because hy couldn't get stoned while caring for my animals hy was most likely having withdrawals. We agreed for hym to get hys own place and I would help because every night hy would go out onto the deck and get shit faced to the point where hy couldn't even talk to me. I didn't enjoy being around hym like that. If someone wants to get high, go for it. But to get shit faced every night is just not something I want to be around. I am flexible and I believe fair. I am constantly negotiating and shifting my sails. I am a strong and capable woman with a lot of life experience. If I invest in anything I expect something back and when I give more then I get I leave. It's that simple.

There is a part of me that wants to put all this on hold for now because I'm enjoying so much of my life right now. I am in a good space spiritually and emotionally. I'm just not wanting to complicate it. In fact this morning I told Wanton not to come to work and that I needed time to think things over. The past few days I get these weird text msg and this fucked up attitude. I'm not use to so much drama and I'm thinking I don't need that in my life right now.

Thank you for your feedback.

[Sachita]

who here has a fetlife account? If so add me a friend? Sachita

[The_Lady_Snow]

You got some major red flags popping up all over your post:

Wanton is mentally unstable with some issues with depression.

I'll be honest with you, I get people have issues but for *me* as a Master I don't want your issues, I would certainly help out and make sure proper medical care was sought out.

hy has hys own perception and lately keeps changing our relationship

This for me as a Master is NOT acceptable, the person who serves me does not change the relationship I do. Hence why I am in Femme Led relationships perhaps you guys need to talk about his need to keep changing it.

Hy has also been playing these little passive aggressive games

Yeah, this one would get you a kick to the curb first time

the days hy chooses to be submissive towards me hy does.

Once again he is doing the choosing? As a Goddess shouldn't you be the chooser? I'm not being sarcastic I am being 100% honest woman to woman Femme to Femme Domina to Domina, why is this person choosing?

It's a bit of a roller coaster

No fun.

would say hy is responsible for the bulk of it.

That screams volumes that he.hy gotta go

get shit faced to the point where hy couldn't even talk to me. I didn't enjoy being around hym like that


This I am like :| I partake in the green and I will be honest I can't imagine smokin' to the point of the above statement. No one likes sloppy.


The beauty of these relationships is, we make the calls period, if it's not working we gently escort the person who thought they could occupy the space out the door because frankly who needs that? My mind can not wrap around at the thought continuing in an exchange where my needs are not met period. It's a good idea you did not allow he.hy to come over and taint your space with all this negative interaction and I do hope you take the time to think if you want to continue with the toxicity, I wish you much luck!

[Sachita]

You got some major red flags popping up all over your post:

Wanton is mentally unstable with some issues with depression.

I'll be honest with you, I get people have issues but for *me* as a Master I don't want your issues, I would certainly help out and make sure proper medical care was sought out.

hy has hys own perception and lately keeps changing our relationship

This for me as a Master is NOT acceptable, the person who serves me does not change the relationship I do. Hence why I am in Femme Led relationships perhaps you guys need to talk about his need to keep changing it.

Hy has also been playing these little passive aggressive games

Yeah, this one would get you a kick to the curb first time

the days hy chooses to be submissive towards me hy does.

Once again he is doing the choosing? As a Goddess shouldn't you be the chooser? I'm not being sarcastic I am being 100% honest woman to woman Femme to Femme Domina to Domina, why is this person choosing?

It's a bit of a roller coaster

No fun.

would say hy is responsible for the bulk of it.

That screams volumes that he.hy gotta go

get shit faced to the point where hy couldn't even talk to me. I didn't enjoy being around hym like that


This I am like :| I partake in the green and I will be honest I can't imagine smokin' to the point of the above statement. No one likes sloppy.


The beauty of these relationships is, we make the calls period, if it's not working we gently escort the person who thought they could occupy the space out the door because frankly who needs that? My mind can not wrap around at the thought continuing in an exchange where my needs are not met period. It's a good idea you did not allow he.hy to come over and taint your space with all this negative interaction and I do hope you take the time to think if you want to continue with the toxicity, I wish you much luck!

all noted.

I guess the point I was also making is that my life is all about negotiation at the same time I have expectations that must be met. Because we were friends with benefits I was more flexible. Normally I am not. Mental illness doesn't always scare me away. I think we're all crazy. I'm also pretty experienced when it comes to dealing with complex emotional issues and scenes within sexual alternatives. There is just a point where my can gets full and I drop you.

I don't expect everything to be perfect. In fact I live in a world that is tolerant of choices, however I am looking to get my needs met. Right now the most wonderful thing that could happen to me, something that would be the icing on the cake would be a sweet boi who would serve me at ANY capacity I see fit. One who needs me as much as I need her/hym

[The_Lady_Snow]

all noted.

I guess the point I was also making is that my life is all about negotiation at the same time I have expectations that must be met. Because we were friends with benefits I was more flexible. Normally I am not. Mental illness doesn't always scare me away. I think we're all crazy. I'm also pretty experienced when it comes to dealing with complex emotional issues and scenes within sexual alternatives. There is just a point where my can gets full and I drop you.


We all come with some emotional baggage, and maybe cause I tend to be a micromanager I feel that one's baggage should be kept neatly in the over head compartment and dealt with in a manner it's not going to constantly be tripping everyone around your life. There's processing time and talk about it time and then there's just time for service, these things can NOT be the over all delegating factors in the exchange cause then honestly no one is getting their needs met if someone doesn't have it together enough to function. That's the key word for *me* can you function, because frankly if you can't no understanding, training, is gonna be able to get a grip of someone's emotional mental roller coaster ride.. Even if our cans are full as the Leads in these types of relationships *we* have to have our shit together and not lead them into our emotional, mental rides it's unfair to them, at that point one is better off alone till one can handle the full time care of a boy.boi.girl it's only fair.

I don't expect everything to be perfect. In fact I live in a world that is tolerant of choices, however I am looking to get my needs met. Right now the most wonderful thing that could happen to me, something that would be the icing on the cake would be a sweet boi who would serve me at ANY capacity I see fit. One who needs me as much as I need her/hym

Then you are going to have to specifically put that out there into the Universe and cultivate those thoughts, wants and desires to the Universe. I would be honest with the boi.boy you are dealing with now and release him.hym of all duties since hy.he is not the one who is goign to do that, it's an emotional, physical, mental yo-yo for hym.him and it could be one more trigger to his depression and need to get sloppy high. I'd seperate myself from him for 30 days and revisit to see if you could have a friendship, that's just me though and not something that you should do if you don't want or you like how things are going.

[Sachita]

Then you are going to have to specifically put that out there into the Universe and cultivate those thoughts, wants and desires to the Universe. I would be honest with the boi.boy you are dealing with now and release him.hym of all duties since hy.he is not the one who is goign to do that, it's an emotional, physical, mental yo-yo for hym.him and it could be one more trigger to his depression and need to get sloppy high. I'd seperate myself from him for 30 days and revisit to see if you could have a friendship, that's just me though and not something that you should do if you don't want or you like how things are going.

Yes, exactly. This has been an issue for some time. Today, this morning, I just had enough. At a later date perhaps we can once again be friends but I won't revisit the D/s relationship with hym again.

I had exchanged a few emails with a boi that lives in my state. She's an experienced butch bottom, or so she says. I can normally get a good feel of things by talking. I actually did go log on to collarme, haven't been in in a while and there was a recent email in my inbox. I replied back with my phone number and we talked. In fact we'll meet this weekend. Nothing big, just a casual introduction. I sense that she is looking for a serious one on one with a mistress. I was forthright in that I am just not sure what I'm looking for. With all the drama the past few months I just may slip into fun mode and raise a little hell. lol

So casual and lighthearted would be great for me now. In fact if I had someone to watch the farm and animals I'd have to fly to the reunion and show 'em how it's done. (said in my best southern accent!)

I'd really love some more dialogue on this topic. I feel that women like us are very misunderstood and this makes it hard for people to approach us.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't really have issues with approach outside of this forum it's understood what I want and look for when I am out and about everyday. I think the whole none approachable is a stigma that comes from sexism because there are people that can't handle a Femme/Woman/Female Power source, I figure that shit is on them, I'm the sweetest person if I feel that the intent is good or that you have desire to make some form of connection and commitment to the relationship be it family, friend, or service person. Good luck with the newbie this weekend and good luck over all finding your hearts desire.

It's funny though that a Masculine/Male/Butch led relationship is rarely question and certainly is not stamped with that whole oh hy.she.he is so unaproachable..

[Sachita]

Oh btw Snow, I meant to make a comment about the "green" and getting high.

I honestly have no problems with drugs and alcohol. I do have a problem with abuse and addiction. If someone makes that their choice then thats cool. I just don't enjoy being around that everyday. I also don't get high other then drinking so its hard for me to even relate to that space with someone who is.

If I didn't get so shit faced stoned, want to eat everything in my house I would smoke it. I hate the feeling of being out of control. I hold my liquor pretty good so when I party I drink. If I drink to much I fall asleep.

Wanton would smoke on the deck then try and come in and talk to me about spirit world, aliens and shit. Hy would talk as if hy tapped some other dimension and often insult my intellect without realizing it. Sometimes hy talked in circles and it made no sense. In hys perception tho hy was keenly focused and did everything much better high. I use to let hym clean the house high but hy made more of a mess and I couldn't find anything! lol Hy would do the craziest shit then make me think I lost my mind!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yeah at that point it would be a limit, I need clear thinking.

[Sachita]

I have been having amazing dreams lately about this. There is a person in my dreams but I can't see hys face.

I have dreams and fantasies of someone kneeling in front of me with adoring eyes. Not because I require hym to but because hy knows it comforts me. Hy really enjoys spoiling me... fixing me healthy food, feeding me, bringing me coffee and even washing my hair. Hy wants my world to be perfect. I adore hym because of this.

I'm not sure I could be in a standard BF relationship again. Its not that I want or even expect someone to be my slave but to understand and address my core needs. That primal essence I call Goddess within me. The masculine aspect of my nature that wants to project aggression and penetrate hys very existence.

I miss this in Wanton boi- the adoration, the service, the whole entire dynamic but I don't miss the craziness and all the drama. I hope one day to find this again in a secure, sane and loving relationship.

[Sachita]

Female led relationships- IMO are sexual, spiritual and emotional. A femdom dynamic that is infused with magic. Adoration, service and worship of the divine feminine within a Domina (or whatever you choose to call this essence in you)
The right connection can raise my vibration to unreal levels. I feel alive and connected to the universe. The wrong connection drains me and although I am a strong and capable woman, I need to be inspired, adored and appreciated for all that I am. If you are lucky enough to see me in this space you'll witness a seductive and magical energy. The simplest movements are infused with power and light.

lol- yes I am rambling. I'm probably lonely and needing to talk about this. I wonder how people perceive all this. Perhaps if you are lurking you can jump in and tell me. I'm especially interested to hear from people not into femdom relationships and how they look at a butch-femme dynamic that includes female domination.

[Sachita]

I've been thinking..... lol I think a lot about this as I re-evaluate my life. The many chapters I've lived and how I arrive at this place today. There is no doubt that I don't fit into the typical butch-femme dynamic. Even though I'm attracted to masculinity and there are parts of the BF dynamic I really love and other parts I can do without.

So I stepped out of the femdom world i was living in, one that was quite refined and totally 24/7. I'm not even sure why. I was hoping to somehow blend my desire for BF with my femdom world or meet in the middle. It was exciting stepping into another world, almost like role-play. lol I was digging it but there were times it seriously ruffled my feathers. I just don't fit into a domestic role. I'll never forget a butch I dated who scoffed at the idea of me having a maid. And who refused to help me cook or clean. Needless to say that didn't last long. None of them last long. yet each time I would sit down, look them straight in eyes and explain what type of woman I am. My standards are high, I am feminine, seductive, smart, picky and I need to be spoiled and adored. I'm thinking that they never got that manual because they were all clueless.

Snow posted something:

" I think the whole none approachable is a stigma that comes from sexism because there are people that can't handle a Femme/Woman/Female Power source"

I don't know if this is always the case but I do feel that a lot of butches have a strong longing to fully express their masculinity. They've fought so hard to identify that they clasp onto traditional hetro relationship values. But what a lot of people don't see, beyond the facade, is how the essence of femininity truly does lead in one way or another. Women have power in so many ways and its up to them to cultivate and learn how to use it constructively. That arm candy that seems plumb dumb isn't as dumb as you think. Sure he might be spitting out the words and appear in control but she has him wrapped around her finger.

I'm getting off point lol

anyhow I encounter a butch who spent some time with me after she had broken up with a GF. She lived in my house for an extended visit trying to get her shit together and perhaps remain with me. It was perfect. It was romantic and yet she was suzie homemaker in a masculine body. She waited on my hand and foot, cooked, cleaned, massages, wonderful conversation and we spent hours talking. I was careful to keep an arm's distance because I knew she was just out of a relationship. To make a long story short she did leave and did end up back with the ex. I was crushed.

I enjoy being the bread winner, so to speak. I enjoy having a butch who enjoys taking care of our home, cooking, cleaning, spoiling me and isn't threatened if I feel sexually aggressive. I don't want to pretend that I';m not kinky. At the same time I don't want to feel like I'm fulfilling/servicing someone's sexual fantasies. Does that make sense? I've had people come to me who were purely curious about submission or seeking sessions from an experienced top. I'm not here for that. It needs to be able me.

So I'm wondering how many butches out there feel comfortable being a house butch and allowing the woman to truly lead the course of the relationship. I see it all around me even when they pretend they don't. I'm just wondering how many enjoy it and are proud to be in that space.

just sharing some thoughts and processing a lot inside. I have decided that this will be the only relationship I will allow myself to have. I am seeking a boi/butch who will be my awesome little fag/June Clever, sometimes daddy, sometimes butler, sometimes just intelligent human. Hmm maybe even two? Oooo maybe a boi and girl? lol my mind is wandering now.

[Soft*Silver]

I am re-visiting this thread, after having been away for a few months from it.

My submissive and I are doing well together. He is obedient, faithful, loyal,and correct in all his services and adoration to me. I have no complaints whatsoever. In fact, this is the easiest relationship I have ever been in. I have my limits, he honors them. And serves fully up to them.

I take care of my own house. He often stays with me but has his own residence. I am the Suzy Homemaker, making dinners, baking, cleaning. When I can. When I cant, he steps in and does it all. His service isnt to replace a spouse or be a maid nor to butler me. Though, often, he does. When needed. Otherwise, I need my independence.

He would never change the dynamics nor push the boundaries, nor dishonor me by presenting himself to me in any fashion other than as a stable, workable person.

He offers me his emotions, his love, his caring. I am tended to well. I also tend to him well. I give him back what he needs from a Mistress.

We have incredible conversations. His intellect is astounding. Gifted intellectually, he can converse on about any subject. I learn much from him. He loves to hear my points of view and we smile as we heatedly debate on different topics.

THIS is how life is suppose to be in a Femme led relationship, for me anyway. I no longer want to struggle. I dont need to be the one working so hard that my heart hurts and my brain feels unwired. I have had it with relationships that were cruel in their hoaxes and empty heartshells of affections. What I have now is real. And what my life was suppose to be defined as. I do not blame anyone in my past for my sorrows, except myself. As a strong Femme, I KNEW. I acknowledge that I KNEW I was forcing the round peg into the square hole, with the past decade of relationships. The only way it fit is if parts of me were shaved off and forced into places I never should have gone, had I been true to myself.

But then is Then and now is Now and I am happy. Could I be in love with this person eventually? Yes. But thats another topic. And not for one right now. For now, I am doing well in this relationship as it is.

[Sachita]

hey there Ms Tia, nice name!

I know what you're saying. I think its about female priorities regard;ess of how that manifest in a relationship. We evolve with a relationship and the cool thing is that as long as we identify our innate power and find a counterpart thats all that really matter. We each have our own needs and what we expect out of a relationship. It seems that you have found your comfort zone with this man and thats all that really matters.

I personally am not a Susie Homemaker type but it doesnt mean I can't treat some sub special and pamper her/hym. I often cook and flutter about my home in a ultra femme manner, however its a choice and not an expectation. I prefer my sub boi to be domestically attentive and adoring in a pseudo feminine way even if hy is butch or even masculine. It's a ying yang thing. The most important, for me, is that hy follows my direction and isn't afraid to bend the rules to please me. in fact hy enjoys the pendulum swinging!

I am happy for you. You seem peaceful, fulfilled and in your zone. Kudos to you.

[Soft*Silver]

I am very territorial about my home and my kitchen especially. I have a need to maintain my own territory and am good at it. I enjoy his care when I am down, but then it is out of need, not contractual purpose. I am pampered in many ways, but I dont need to be gluttonous of frivolities to feel Mistressy, but thats me. I see a distinction in my household than yours. We are just different, with different needs. Good luck with yours.

[DapperButch]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/03/lijun-liao_n_4689642.html?ref=topbar