View Full Version : Butch Pronouns - A Questionaire
I have spent much of yesterday and today reading and re-reading the "Men with boobs" thread, and the use of default butch pronouns is one of many themes involved in that discussion.
I'm going to attach a poll, but there is not a poll that can cover every person's experience, thoughts, etc. So, in addition to the poll, I'm going to put a more inclusive questionaire below.
What I would like to do is ask anybody who participates in this thread to first fill out and post the questionaire - before addressing another person's answers to the questionaire.
If a question definitely does not apply to you, please write "N/A"
The Butch Pronoun Questionaire
1. How do you identify?
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)?
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly?
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past?
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting?
3b. If so, can you please explain why and how?
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun?
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
5b. How do/would you react?
6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
6b. How do/would you react?
7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
7b. How do/would you react?
8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
8b. How do/would you react?
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun?
9b. If not, why not?
9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community?
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns?
10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond?
10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns?
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun?
11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
11c. If not, what do you do instead?
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun?
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
12c. If not, what do you do instead?
12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others?
13b. If so, what pronoun?
13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be?
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch?
14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you?
15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns?
16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be?
DapperButch
05-16-2010, 09:18 PM
Hot diggity, I was going to do a poll asking butches who don't use the pronoun bar why that is (I am SO curious on that one), but this is great!
I have spent much of yesterday and today reading and re-reading the "Men with boobs" thread, and the use of default butch pronouns is one of many themes involved in that discussion.
I'm going to attach a poll, but there is not a poll that can cover every person's experience, thoughts, etc. So, in addition to the poll, I'm going to put a more inclusive questionaire below.
What I would like to do is ask anybody who participates in this thread to first fill out and post the questionaire - before addressing another person's answers to the questionaire.
If a question definitely does not apply to you, please write "N/A"
The Butch Pronoun Questionaire
1. How do you identify? TG Stone Butch
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? Hy
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? It is the closest thing I can find between she and he. I used to be annoyed by the spelling but since the other two don't fit, I accept having to use this one
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? Preferred, no. I didn't consider I had any other choice as a child but she. As an adult I realized I had a choice.
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? Preferred pronoun does not change. Does my pronoun change? Yes, at work and with my family. If I transitioned to male, then of course my pronoun would be he in all places.
3b. If so, can you please explain why and how? See above.
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? Not extremely. If someone calls me she it may feel weird (including at work), but it is fine. Some people don't know (work) and some may make mistakes (here).
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? I am fine with he
5b. How do/would you react? No comment to the person.
6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? For some reason she feels weirder than he. Perhaps because of the sound of the word, or perhaps because I am a little closer to he than she.
6b. How do/would you react? On the Planet, if I knew the person I would PM them to tell them what I prefer because they would understand it. It would be important to me that they know that I am not upset that they called me by the pronoun that is not the best fit for me.
7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? N/A
7b. How do/would you react? I would think, cool!, they read the pronoun bar/have listened in threads to what I prefer.
8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? No feeling about it. I would be glad that they were thinking well enough to take the PC way out instead of using he/she/hy if they didn't know what I preferred.
8b. How do/would you react? No reaction.
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? Absolutely and without question.
9b. If not, why not? N/A
9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community? N/A
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? No.
10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond? Of course not.
10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns? No, I don't think so.
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I always write she/he/hy (actually, if my guess is they use he then I put he first in the sequence, and vis versa). If possible I use a name, but sometimes it just makes the sentence so awkward.
11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? N/A
11c. If not, what do you do instead? N/A
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. I advocate people using the pronoun bar or not getting upset if someone uses a nonpreferred pronoun for them if they choose to not use the bar (or indicate somewhere in their avatar a preference for pronoun - like I would most likely assume a self described "butch lesbian" would want to be called she))
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? I often say he/she in regular conversation when I do not know.
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? See above.
12c. If not, what do you do instead? N/A
12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No opinion.
13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? I date only femmes.
13b. If so, what pronoun? N/A
13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be? N/A
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? No.
14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you? N/A
15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns? No.
16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be?
For the butch who doesn't use the pronoun bar, why?
1. How do you identify?
I identify as a bigender femme lesbian
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)?
she - but it's a very mild preference
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly?
no
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past?
no, except maybe a total non-preference. I've thought about what it would feel like to have others. If there were a common gender-neutral pronoun, I would perhaps one day prefer it when it felt less awkward
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting?
nope
3b. If so, can you please explain why and how?
n/a
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun?
not terribly important. it would be more an issue of confusion to me than anything else if somebody referred to me as something other than "she"
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
I think it would depend on the context, and I think I would possibly wonder about the motivation. If it was an attempt to honor my gender experience, I'd think it was neat. If it was an attempt to dismiss me as a woman or as a femme, I would possibly be upset.
5b. How do/would you react?
I don't know if I would.
6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
N/A
6b. How do/would you react?
N/A
7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
Same as I would for "he"
7b. How do/would you react?
I don't know
8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
possibly good, if I could figure out I was the person being referred to
8b. How do/would you react?
I probably wouldn't
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun?
Yes
9b. If not, why not?
Though I currently answer yes, there were times in the past when I did use different defaults.
When I used "she" it was when I was new to the community and I thought "she" was the only option.
When I used "he" it was because the self-identified butches I knew indicated that they preferred it and also that they felt misrepresented and upset about being called "she"
When I used "hy" it was because a few people presented it to me as the "compromise" between "he" and "she" and as a "butch pronoun."
Then there was a time that I just tried to switch it up each time I posted something. In most of these cases, I was talking in the hypothetical - not about a specific butch with a known pronoun. Also I think it's been about 3 years since I've done this regarding a known butch unless it was total accident.
9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community?
I don't think I have a clear picture of all the possible ramifications, but I think it is erasing and offensive to most people to have the wrong pronoun applied to them, and it's also erasing and offensive to those who would share that ID, to their partners and allies. Depending on which pronoun it is, it also may create a cultural myth that there are more people who use that pronoun than there actually are. It may create false expectations and increase pressure to conform to a pronoun or gender representation that does not fit. It may also have ramifications outside of the community, as it may perpetuate or play into stereotypes within the straight or greater LGBTQ community.
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns?
no.
10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond?
no. I think there was a time when I thought maybe there were differences discernable from the outside, but my own *ahem* research has shown no correlation at all whatsoever between pronoun and any of these things.
10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns?
I do tend to imagine butches who use "she" as their pronoun are more likely to be pro-woman and I feel a greater sense of comfort and comradery in discussing issues affecting women with those who are more comfortable with the "she" pronoun. This is probably fucked up of me and worth exploring further.
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun?
I have found myself not referring to butches in the third person very much these days, but I do tend to use a default pronoun on occasion and in absence of real data
11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
"she" in the absence of real knowledge or opportunity to ask
11c. If not, what do you do instead?
I do find myself just trying to avoid butch pronouns altogether more often these days. Sometimes I have written "s/he" or "she/he/hy/zie."
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
I am trending toward "she" in this regard because my current understanding is that there are more butches that prefer "she" and also because I am understanding more clearly that the dash site's culture (in which my queerness was birthed) tended toward "he" even though butches who used "he" were not in the majority there either. I would say that the standard should be NO DEFAULT EVER but there are times that you don't know and you can't ask.
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun?
I think my answers to 12 are going to be the same as 11.
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
12c. If not, what do you do instead?
12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others?
"Partner with" would be stretching it - I have only "partnered with" one butch and he went by "he." My current relationship is not with a person who is butch-identified.
However, if I look at the flings and encounters I had earlier in my out life (when I'm afraid I was a bit like a kid in a candy shop), of the self-identified butches and a few self-identified "bois", I think the number was pretty even between "she" and "he" - with one "hy."
13b. If so, what pronoun?
N/A
13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be?
pronouns have not been high on my list of reasons to date a person
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch?
yes. I remember the first time was Juney and she said something like, "not every butch is a "he"" when I used the term "he" regarding a hypothetical situation with a butch.
I think Toughy said something to me before too, but I can't remember if she was directly correcting me or if she was correcting somebody else and I stuck my nose into it.
And Medusa long ago said something about my use of the term "boi" - I think.
And Metro long ago was very patient with me and helped me to better understand how cavalier I was being regarding this stuff.
There have probably been more times - these are just the ones that spring to mind. I think it has taken a long time for me to get to the point where I feel capable of handling the complexity that exists. For me, it's very complex for my brain to work out. For a long time I was just looking for the "right" pronoun - the one that would keep me from offending the least people or getting jumped on.
14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you?
I have felt very appreciative toward the people who were kind to me or whom I observed being kind to others when correcting an incorrect pronoun. I have felt like those who treated me or others in a hostile way regarding pronoun use have contributed to a hostile environment and contributed to my own feelings of alienation. But I think everybody who has sought to correct me or others has influenced me in the long run to try to do better.
15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns?
not really
16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be?
I've got nothing, but it's late.
I usually try and stay out of these discussions cuz they get too complicated and convoluted for my simplistic view of the world. But, I'm having one of those days.....so......
I am a female and a woman who happens to be a lesbian. I expect to be called by female pronouns because I am a female and proud of it.
I am frequently mistaken for a male on the phone and occasionally in person. It annoys me when this happens and it irks me to have to correct people....which I will do everytime.
If I am unsure of someones preference I will refrain from using any pronoun until I can ask them about it.
Even tho I will defend anyones right to be called by any pronoun they prefer, it irks me to have to jump thru these hoops. In my everyday life spanning over 35 years of being out, I have never had to deal with pronoun issues or "gender" issues. Both, for me, is like dealing with foreign concepts which are ever evolving and expanding in more and more directions to some unknown end.
I am reluctant to use the term butch these days. Butch used to be a noun with a specific connotation. Now butch is an adjective used with other adjectives to create a unique identity within any number of growing subcultures within the larger community. The pride I used to feel in the term is as watered down as the term itself.
I do not believe pronouns are a reliable indicator of any type of preferences i.e question 10 et al.
I dont know that "standardizing" is feasible.
If I could add a question it would be....the gay male community doesnt struggle with pronoun issues, femmes dont struggle with pronoun issues, what makes this an issue specific to butches?
Bad_boi
05-17-2010, 03:43 AM
1. How do you identify?
Butch
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)?
Hy
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly?
yeah
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past?
Not really.
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting?
I am not picky but just prefer hy.
3b. If so, can you please explain why and how?
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun?
It makes me happy but I am not picky.
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
Kind of amused actually.
5b. How do/would you react?
If it was someone I would be around a lot I might politely let them know I am a female.
If I would never see them again I would ignore it so they would not be embarrased.
6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
Not any different since I'm used to it.
6b. How do/would you react?
Like normal.
7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
7b. How do/would you react?
I might crack a smile.
8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
Indifferent.
8b. How do/would you react?
Like normal.
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun?
I ask.
9b. If not, why not?
9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community?
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns?
No
10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond?
They can but it is not a sure thing since everyone is different and outside the box.
10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns?
no
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun?
Depends upon the situation.
11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
11c. If not, what do you do instead?
Most butches in my area are ok with she, if I am not sure I ask.
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
No. Because everyone is different and no one should be put into a box.
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun?
mmhm.
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
Hy because I like it for myself so I assume others would as well.
12c. If not, what do you do instead?
12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
No. Standards are just plain silly.
13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others?
Not really.
13b. If so, what pronoun?
13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be?
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch?
Nope
14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you?
15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns?
16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be?
What is better- Chocolate chip or Oreo?
Linus
05-17-2010, 04:56 AM
I'll make it relatively simple (sorry.. the questionnaire made my head spin this morning). I look at their profile or see how they reference themselves (go back through posts). Whatever their choices is, I'm happy with. Few people get my pronoun wrong unless it's deliberately done. Neutral or masculine wouldn't bother me but feminine still rubs me not so right.
Apocalipstic
05-17-2010, 03:58 PM
Thank you Nat!
I try to use the pronoun people prefer. if I don't know, I try to ask.
I HATE it when people automatically use "He" or "Hy" for every Butch without asking. I try to be understamding and remind them "she" if indeed the person uses "she" as their prefered pronoun, but often, it makes no difference.
I used to avoid people who did this even after being reminded several times, I am trying to soften on it and continue to remind them....but it sure gets old.
Softly
05-17-2010, 04:17 PM
I dislike it as well. I have really only run into this issue on the interwebz. I once chatted with someone who kept calling my partner hy and when I corrected this person they said "well, hy is your Daddy, right"?
yeah, AND that makes my partner a HY???
I'm too impatient to deal with people like that. :furious:
I HATE it when people automatically use "He" or "Hy" for every Butch without asking. I try to be understamding and remind them "she" if indeed the person uses "she" as their prefered pronoun, but often, it makes no difference.
I used to avoid people who did this even after being reminded several times, I am trying to soften on it and continue to remind them....but it sure gets old.
DamonK
05-17-2010, 04:35 PM
Interesting...
I have spent much of yesterday and today reading and re-reading the "Men with boobs" thread, and the use of default butch pronouns is one of many themes involved in that discussion.
I'm going to attach a poll, but there is not a poll that can cover every person's experience, thoughts, etc. So, in addition to the poll, I'm going to put a more inclusive questionaire below.
What I would like to do is ask anybody who participates in this thread to first fill out and post the questionaire - before addressing another person's answers to the questionaire.
If a question definitely does not apply to you, please write "N/A"
The Butch Pronoun Questionaire
1. How do you identify? TG male
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? He
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? Yes
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? Hy
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? Yes
3b. If so, can you please explain why and how? I work for a Catholic hospital. Their insurance doesn't cover birth control as far as my understanding. Therefore, in order to remain safe, I will use female pronouns there. Currently, I'm not out to my family as TG, I use female pronouns there.
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? When I hear "she" or "ladies" in reference to me, I cringe. I really hate it. So, if I'm in the situation where my preferred pronoun can be used, use it. Otherwise, I will be quite unhappy.
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
N/A
5b. How do/would you react?
6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? With the exception of work and family, I feel disrespected, especially if I've met that person more than once and know they KNOW what pronoun to use.
6b. How do/would you react? I politely correct them.
7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? N/A
7b. How do/would you react?
8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? N/A
8b. How do/would you react?
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? Yes
9b. If not, why not?
9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community?
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? No
10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond? No
10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns? No
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I don't use pronouns if I can avoid it.
11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
11c. If not, what do you do instead? I try to not use a pronoun, then ask.
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? No
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? It's hypothetical. I'm not going to use a pronoun.
12c. If not, what do you do instead? Avoid pronouns.
12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No
13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? No
13b. If so, what pronoun?
13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be?
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? Yes
14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you? I felt fine. It educated me to that person's wishes.
15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns? No
16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be? N/A
SassyLeo
05-17-2010, 05:53 PM
I almost ALWAYS ask... what is your preferred pronoun? Or if speaking about someone not present, I might ask someone else involved in the conversation... "how does that person identify?"
Ms. Tabitha
05-17-2010, 06:58 PM
I almost ALWAYS ask... what is your preferred pronoun? Or if speaking about someone not present, I might ask someone else involved in the conversation... "how does that person identify?"
Exactly.
If Im unable to ask, I call them by their name.
:peacelove:
Ok I use hy most of the time I am stone butch and it just fits but I try to not be offended if called something other.it doen't have to define me I know who I am and and am pretty happy just being that
I have spent much of yesterday and today reading and re-reading the "Men with boobs" thread, and the use of default butch pronouns is one of many themes involved in that discussion.
I'm going to attach a poll, but there is not a poll that can cover every person's experience, thoughts, etc. So, in addition to the poll, I'm going to put a more inclusive questionaire below.
What I would like to do is ask anybody who participates in this thread to first fill out and post the questionaire - before addressing another person's answers to the questionaire.
If a question definitely does not apply to you, please write "N/A"
The Butch Pronoun Questionaire
1. How do you identify? Stone Butch
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? Hy
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? in some ways I am a female id butch but the male side is much stronger
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? nope
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? NA
3b. If so, can you please explain why and how?
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? it really is not
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? it does not really bother me they most likely don't know me
5b. How do/would you react? I don't
6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? see above
6b. How do/would you react?
7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
7b. How do/would you react?
8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? OK this i think would bug me
8b. How do/would you react? would ask what the heck and correct them
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? it is the proper thing to do
9b. If not, why not?
9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community?
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? yeah can not explain but yes
10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond? it can but I don't want to judge
10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns?no
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I try not to I don't wish to accidently offend
11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
11c. If not, what do you do instead?
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun?
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
12c. If not, what do you do instead?
12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others?
13b. If so, what pronoun?
13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be?
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch?
14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you?
15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns?
16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be?
Rockinonahigh
05-19-2010, 10:54 AM
When on the phone and in public I get called sir all the time ,in public its sir then ooohhh errrr excuse me mam....my reply is, whatever.Acualy I get tired of correcting ppl,I know who I am and dont need validation of my chosen gender expresion.I never have had a prob with how anyone else deals with being called sir or mam cause I respect there choices and roll with it.
Andrew, Jr.
05-19-2010, 11:01 AM
I go with Rockin on this. I prefer he, him, his. I male id. I am middle aged, and at this point in my life I am not going to make a mountain out of an ant hill imho. In life you choose the battles that are significant to you, not a group or crowd but you. And that is where I am at in my life right now.
scootebaby
05-19-2010, 11:01 AM
i am butch,and i try not to default ever...i'll use screenname usually unless feeling very energetic then i will check profile b4 responding....however it gets confusing as i saw posted somewhere(maybe in another thread) how people id one way online and another in real life. i mean i understand the whole sometimes u have to bc of job or family or whatever,but those aside my g/f calls me she in real time she also calls me she online...dunno seems strange to me! if you are comfortable with who you really are shouldnt one pronoun be enough? work,family and HAVE to cases aside of course
Rockinonahigh
05-19-2010, 11:33 AM
Hi Andrew..hope u r haveing a good day.Yes,I pick the battles that are winnable,some folks u cant change there minds or actions so I feel its there problem in life cause I have way to many things to do that are atainable and fun.Once there was a time I was not this way and figured I needed to be herd and let ppl know how I felt.then I lerned u cant fix stupid.Now in this day and age I dont really give a s**t,the folks in my life that matter is what counts.
JustBeingMe
05-19-2010, 12:25 PM
I generally have used the person's screen name and that's either in real life because i dind't know their chosen name or real name they used, and online.
I identify as a Lesbian Butch Female ID,
I prefer that I am referred to as She but I don't get bent out of shape and make it an issue when someone uses an incorrect pronoun.
However, when I have supposedly used an incorrect pronoun because I speak correct English, I have been chastised and brow beat to death over the issue.
That's why I choose to use either their real name they use if I know it, or their screen name, in order to keep the peace so to speak.
I have some really good friends that are male ID'd but if I mispeak to them and say she instead of he, they don't make it an issue either. It's just not that important to them. They choose their battles, and pronouns is NOT one of them.
On the dash site, I did find in chat or threads, that the majority of butches were referred to as He or Hy, instead of what the actual majority is which is She on that site. I found quite a bit of in fighting with male ID'd butches over the issue of visibility for female/woman ID"d butches in the threads on that site as well. which I personally, from my ME space, find it repulsive to infight over such issues. I got sick of it. I no longer engage in such discussions anymore because you end up :yesno: and :deadhorse:and the thread is....:threadjack:
And that's just my ....:2cents:
Was going back through some older threads today and thought the survey results for this turned out interestingly.
So the largest portion of each identity chose the option that y'all/we try never to use default pronouns for butches.
Then it gets interesting. Femmes split down the middle between "he" and "she", but if you add in the 5 femmes who use "hy," that means the majority of femmes who use a default pronoun are phonetically defaulting to what sounds like "he."
More interestingly - to me - because I feel like femmes bear the brunt of the pronoun burden at times - butches by far default to "he" or "hy" compared with "she" when using a default pronoun for butches.
And the trend continues amongst trans folks - only one stating they default to "she" for butches.
I personally continue to be frustrated with my own brain - often calling some butches "she" when I know they are "hy" or "he" and then calling other butches "he" when I know they are she. I don't tend to accidentally "hy" people these days. I do try, but I definitely appreciate butches who are easy-going about their pronouns. ha.
DapperButch
09-11-2013, 05:54 AM
I continue to wonder why so many butches do not use the pronoun preferred slot under their name. Then this issue of people being insulted when someone uses the wrong pronoun for them could be avoided.
The reality (whether we want to see it or not), is that people have defaults, based on their experiences with butches (online and offline). I find it hard to believe that most people are purposely calling others by the wrong pronoun due to their own agenda as to what pronoun they believe should be the default pronoun for a butch.
I think it is unfair for someone to be upset if the wrong pronoun is used for them if they do not tell the member what to call them by using the preferred pronoun slot. It is not fair to expect that everyone will remember what pronoun you/someone else used to refer to you in a post long ago (that most likely, the person never even read).
Too, even if you use the preferred pronoun slot, give people a break who make a mistake. There are people who have not been online for many years and do not know that there is a possibility that people prefer one pronoun over the other (I would suggest that offline b/f communities, especially those who do not frequent b/f forums, use one or the other almost exclusively).
I think that until we know otherwise, lets give people the benefit of the doubt (especially if you do not use the preferred pronoun slot). I know I appreciate it when someone uses it.
With all of that said, I have heard butches say that there are times that people know their preferred pronoun, yet insist on calling them by the speaker's preferred pronoun for butches. I see this as unexcusable. Like most things in life, it is all about intent.
One last thing, when talking about the above, I am obviously referring to times when one does not have the opportunity to ask the person's preferred pronoun before using a pronoun for the person (assuming the person has not used the pronoun slot).
Parker
09-11-2013, 06:37 AM
Bouncing off of Dapper's thoughts: and if the butch has a preferred pronoun on their profile, but the wrong pronoun is accidentally used, it is not meant as an insult when that butch corrects the person speaking to them.
I am a woman and comfortable enough with my biological sex to consider myself a she. Genderwise it doesn't exactly fit for me but what are you gonna do. I am a feminist and my primary allegiance is and always will be with other women. I am a butch and I am a woman so the pronoun she works. However quirky as it may sound I don't mind when someone who sees me as a butch woman or even just understands me as butch calls me he. When people call me he because they can't see the woman I am because it doesn't match their idea of what a woman looks like or because I don't present the proper markers to trigger the female identity for them then I don't care for it so much.
I always use the pronoun the person prefers if I know it. I will ask if I don't and it's an option or I will refrain from using a pronoun if I don't know it.
It's not the first time or the only situation where I have had to NOT use a pronoun when referencing someone. I am quite adept at it. Thankfully I don't have to do it to protect my job anymore. Born twenty years too soon.
Celtglen
09-14-2013, 10:16 AM
I never have found one that fits ME
'nuff said me thinks.
I think it are me boobs and curves, I cannot, physically bind---OUCH! So I am what I am Butch with a full on female Bod.
As long as my wife loves me as I am I am good with it. Wifey is a Fierce Femme who sports dresses as well as jeans (truth be though I love her in heels)
no one ever pings her for Queer.
Me though, its the pants, the flannel the boots--I look female but AM BUTCH.
Go ahead, classify me, "You feeling lucky, punk, you feeling...lucky?" from the movie and NOT to be taken as a threat at ALLL!!!!
I continue to wonder why so many butches do not use the pronoun preferred slot under their name. Then this issue of people being insulted when someone uses the wrong pronoun for them could be avoided.
The reality (whether we want to see it or not), is that people have defaults, based on their experiences with butches (online and offline). I find it hard to believe that most people are purposely calling others by the wrong pronoun due to their own agenda as to what pronoun they believe should be the default pronoun for a butch.
I think it is unfair for someone to be upset if the wrong pronoun is used for them if they do not tell the member what to call them by using the preferred pronoun slot. It is not fair to expect that everyone will remember what pronoun you/someone else used to refer to you in a post long ago (that most likely, the person never even read).
Too, even if you use the preferred pronoun slot, give people a break who make a mistake. There are people who have not been online for many years and do not know that there is a possibility that people prefer one pronoun over the other (I would suggest that offline b/f communities, especially those who do not frequent b/f forums, use one or the other almost exclusively).
I think that until we know otherwise, lets give people the benefit of the doubt (especially if you do not use the preferred pronoun slot). I know I appreciate it when someone uses it.
With all of that said, I have heard butches say that there are times that people know their preferred pronoun, yet insist on calling them by the speaker's preferred pronoun for butches. I see this as unexcusable. Like most things in life, it is all about intent.
One last thing, when talking about the above, I am obviously referring to times when one does not have the opportunity to ask the person's preferred pronoun before using a pronoun for the person (assuming the person has not used the pronoun slot).
Dapper gets the prize for using the word 'pronoun' the most times (correctly) in one post. :cheesy:
I wanted to show up and basically agree with every one. The first two parts I have bolded above make perfect sense to me. I have in the past used the pronoun space or not, mostly not. It is not to confuse, but I just don't get all wound up about it if someone who doesn't know me picks whatever is handy. People who know me beyond posts, or have seen me post over time will know that I prefer gender neutral and that there are plenty of choices that are non-specific. If it is more comfortable for the other person to use gender specific pronouns, I would trend toward male. It fits in my head better as it is how I ID to myself.
To that end, at least for now, I have filled in that slot. We have a lot of new folks on the site and I can see where if they are new to BF terminology or gender politics it could make them more comfortable if they want to address me. I don't know how long it will be there but it is now.
The third portion I bolded above is something I have also experienced. I put it in the same category as other forms of willful disrespect.
Bouncing off of Dapper's thoughts: and if the butch has a preferred pronoun on their profile, but the wrong pronoun is accidentally used, it is not meant as an insult when that butch corrects the person speaking to them.
Agreeing here also, but mostly using this as a springboard to ask Parker something I've wanted to know for a while but keep forgetting to ask. You list your preference as 'She, of course!' (currently and for a while now), my question is why use the 'of course' part? To me when looking at a butch's profile there is no assumed default. I would see it more useful for a femme (don't take that the wrong way) just because I don't see femmes IDing as male. Anything is possible though.
The way I read it is as: Of course it is She, what else would it be? Well, with butches it could in fact be male as another option. Am I reading it incorrectly?
BTW, in no way does your choice bother me, I simply do not understand it. Curious minds and all...
<snip>
I always use the pronoun the person prefers if I know it. I will ask if I don't and it's an option or I will refrain from using a pronoun if I don't know it.
Good policy and one I use too.
DapperButch
09-15-2013, 06:39 PM
Kelt,
Something that is very funny is earlier today I was reminded that you don't use the pronoun slot. I was actually going to razz you about it, but didn't, because I'm nice like that. :sunglass:
Thanks for your post. Lets hear it for using the pronoun slot so ALL genders/sexes can live in harmony! :gimmehug:
<--- thinks we have a pronounphobicslot epidemic here
macele
09-15-2013, 08:04 PM
i've always liked the fact that melissa etheridge stays away from using pronouns in her songs. it's neutral. can go either way. but, i've never really gave pronouns much thought as in referring to me. i've always been a she and it doesn't bother me, ... never have felt that i should be anything other than she/her. i am butch, btw. a woman. female. lesbian. sometimes a smartass. sometimes a tomboy. all days a diehard pat summitt fan. etc. etc. ...
i will call you whatever makes you happy. that's what matters. if you are happy.
Parker
09-15-2013, 11:08 PM
Agreeing here also, but mostly using this as a springboard to ask Parker something I've wanted to know for a while but keep forgetting to ask. You list your preference as 'She, of course!' (currently and for a while now), my question is why use the 'of course' part? To me when looking at a butch's profile there is no assumed default. I would see it more useful for a femme (don't take that the wrong way) just because I don't see femmes IDing as male. Anything is possible though.
The way I read it is as: Of course it is She, what else would it be? Well, with butches it could in fact be male as another option. Am I reading it incorrectly?
BTW, in no way does your choice bother me, I simply do not understand it. Curious minds and all...
I had a long drawn out post, but it is actually much too simple for all those words: you are correct when you say that it means: "Of course it is She, what else would it be?" because my "How do you ID?" says "woman" and women use "she"? :winky:
Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried.
Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol :)
I had a long drawn out post, but it is actually much too simple for all those words: you are correct when you say that it means: "Of course it is She, what else would it be?" because my "How do you ID?" says "woman" and women use "she"? :winky:
Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried.
Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol :)
I now understand how it is to be read from your point of view, I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
I find one part of your underlying premise to be untenable, "and women use "she". However, it is not part of my original question which was a simple curiosity based linguistics question about your chosen phraseology. In light of that, I will respectfully agree to disagree on that point.
I know neither one of us wants to reopen a decade old debate. So again, thank you for your answer. :)
princessbelle
09-16-2013, 09:28 AM
I would like to mention that i've never ran across anyone who would get upset when using the wrong pronoun. Especially at the beginning.
You can't tell by appearance, by gender, by anything else for that matter so there are honestly, no clues. It is just a personal decision. I also do try to steer away from it best i can, by using you or the name of the person when i'm not sure and don't want to appear rude.
Let's face it we are a community of very fluid pronouns and most of us know by now to ask which one to use for which person. At times i do feel like i need a schematic to keep up with it and boy oh boy do i falter. But, MY experience has been met with kindness and a gentle redirection.
You could tell me you are a she and the next sentence it could come out a he, but i mean no harm or disrespect. It's just hard to remember for me.
On top of that we are all evolving and growing and changing and our gender and or pronouns do too sometimes.
It's best to ask, but hard to remember. I guess would be my answer to this ever changing pronoun.
Princessbelle,
I completely agree with you. Your point about not having external identifiers is especially pertinent online, most of the time we have no idea as to the appearance, much less preferences, of any given individual. A little flexibility goes a long way.
I think the English language has evolved significantly over time and already provides many gender neutral options as is. If the it hadn't we'd still be using a lot of thee's and thou's. :) Seeing the evolution of terms in urban slang and also in personal identifiers is promising. I hope it continues and that the use of gender specifics diminishes and that people of all sorts begin to view it as less relevant in conversation.
odd_boi_out
09-18-2013, 11:30 PM
The Butch Pronoun Questionnaire
1. How do you identify? Transmasculine, butch
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? They
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? Pretty well, I guess
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? I used he for a number of years, and she when I was growing up
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? I always prefer they, but in some settings and around some people I don't feel comfortable sharing that. Most people tend to default to using he for me unless I tell them otherwise.
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? Moderately important, though I don't get too bent out of shape about it
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Somewhat invalidated, but I'm pretty used to it
5b. How do/would you react? I probably wouldn't do anything
6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Confused, and a little embarassed
6b. How do/would you react? Again, I probably wouldn't do anything. I'm ridiculously nonconfrontational.
7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Really confused. I've never heard/seen anyone use the pronoun hy outside of this forum.
7b. How do/would you react? I'm not sure.
8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? A little frustrated, I think, though also impressed that the person was comfortable with nonbinary pronouns.
8b. How do/would you react? I would probably make a point to let the person know that I don't use the pronoun zie.
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? In general, I strive to ensure that I use people's preferred pronouns.
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? Not really. I used to, but as a butch who has preferred different pronouns over the course of my (rather short) life but who myself has changed very little, I no longer really associate universal distinctions between butches who identify with different pronouns.
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I would probably avoid using a pronoun or use the pronoun that others are using for them. If I really felt that I had to default, I would probably default to she. I know more butches who prefer she than those who prefer other pronouns.
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. Each person has the right to decide what pronoun works best for them.
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? Not usually, but if I had to, I'd probably use she, for the reason given above.
13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? I've never partnered with a butch before.
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? No
NitroChrys_Butch
09-19-2013, 06:13 PM
I have spent much of yesterday and today reading and re-reading the "Men with boobs" thread, and the use of default butch pronouns is one of many themes involved in that discussion.
I'm going to attach a poll, but there is not a poll that can cover every person's experience, thoughts, etc. So, in addition to the poll, I'm going to put a more inclusive questionaire below.
What I would like to do is ask anybody who participates in this thread to first fill out and post the questionaire - before addressing another person's answers to the questionaire.
If a question definitely does not apply to you, please write "N/A"
The Butch Pronoun Questionaire
1. How do you identify? Butch
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? Hy/Hys/Hym
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? YES
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? Just these.
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? No.. always masculine pronouns.
3b. If so, can you please explain why and how? Feminine pronouns do not apply.
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? It is important to Me but I don't make a huge issue of it. I understand to others I may seem to be in need of some feminine pronouns.
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? It makes Me smile when they do.
5b. How do/would you react? Like the gentleman I was raised to be.
6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? It irritates Me but I cringe and bear it.
6b. How do/would you react? Like the gentleman I was raised to be.
7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? They do and it is.
7b. How do/would you react? See above.
8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? This is not something I relate to but I would not make an issue of it.
8b. How do/would you react? Like the gentleman I was raised to be.
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? YES.
9b. If not, why not? NA
9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community? I find that respect is necessary and do what I can to find out how someone wishes to be addressed.
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? Not really.
10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond? Of course.
10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns? Of course.
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I ask them. I like picking peoples's brains. I am not a zombie, however.
11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? I find out what is important to them. It is all about respect. I do not use default pronouns.
11c. If not, what do you do instead? I ask them how they prefer to be addressed.
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. Free will. Everyone will learn in time.
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? No. There is no thing as a hypothetical butch. That butch is "out" there lurking.
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? NA
12c. If not, what do you do instead? See above.
12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. No one has the right to enforce one set of "fit-all" protocol on others.
13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? When I do so, it is always masculine pronouns.
13b. If so, what pronoun? Hy/He His/Hys Hym/Him
13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be? Because it is the way it should be.
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? Yes. I have also done the correcting.
14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you? I learned that I have a lot to learn. I should be corrected.
15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns? They are what feels right. It is innate.
16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be?
It was a pleasure to participate.
I’m baaack. :)
I know I said I would let go of this, but of course I couldn’t. This statement has been festering away in my brain for days now. (I don’t like feeling erased)
I had a long drawn out post, but it is actually much too simple for all those words: you are correct when you say that it means: "Of course it is She, what else would it be?" because my "How do you ID?" says "woman" and women use "she"? :winky:
Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried.
Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol :)
I honestly didn’t think there was anyway I could make sense out of it but I might have now and I am hoping that Parker will come in here and give me a confirmation. Or denial, either way I really am trying to figure out context.
Generally speaking when I read something I try to look at the surrounding context to make sure I’m getting it right. If it still doesn’t work I default to the dictionary or encyclopedia. This is a case where I couldn’t make it work either way. The problem is I know that Parker is smart and more importantly, significantly better at being politically correct than I am.
So, I’ve been doing a wider search. I went out into the Internet and combed through dozens of videos, blog posts, and articles written/spoken by butches of varying ages and locations. In some cases I saw the word woman being used in a somewhat different (but unclear) way although mostly the dictionary way. Then I came back here to this website and searched the forums. I found a thread that started back in 2009, a big one about this subject. I got through 126 large posts before I found one that stated that to some people female=sex and woman=gender.
If I frame it as a gender instead of biology I can understand (after a lot of digging) what was meant. I’m looking for verification. Specifically from Parker; is this what you meant?
If it is, a little alternative definition in your reply would have gone a long way. Someone new to this site or the dynamic might not get it. I didn't.
:seeingstars:
Well, I'm getting an education.
I want to thank the folks that have pm'd to send more information or give their point of view.
Clearly I have more studying to do. Back to the archives for more.
:glasses:
Scots_On_The_Rocks
09-28-2013, 05:02 PM
I chose to answer only the following question as that based upon my answer to it, all other questions seem to be answered by proxy.
So here is the question I referenced and my answer.
1. How do you identify?
This is an interesting question.
The need within the queer community to quantify and validate our existence and identities into neat, organized categories, has caused us to label things to the point that we have become some long string of pronouns, adjectives and nouns. And oft we are touting off this diatribe of words to people who have stopped listening after the first two words of our identity, where we are striving through words to be seen as "different, unique, and new".
Sadly, language is both evolving and stagnating to the point that people still fall through the cracks between descriptors.
And that is where I fall into this.
There are no descriptors that I feel accurately describe me without my having fallen into the "alphabet soup" and come out covered in layer upon layer of adjectives.
So, oft, "for the sake of conversation", I momentarily don the name-tag of "male-identified butch", and then promptly take it off after introductions are made, because it is my actions that determine who I am, not a string of ill-fitting words.
And due to this aforementioned need to quantify and validate that is so rampant within the queer community, I refrain from throwing gender based monikers around when referring to others in that:
1. People tend to get rather defensive and aggressive around mis-usage of the "proper" descriptors of their choice.
2. I want to be as effectively respectful of others as I possibly can in the hopes that they in turn will respect my gender expression, gender identity, and gender preference.
Tuff Stuff
08-24-2015, 08:16 PM
The Butch Pronoun Questionaire
1. How do you identify?
Butch Woman
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)?
She
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly?
Yes
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past?
I was called he...some still call me that,actually.Men and women take me for a he on first impressions.
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting?
Yes
3b. If so, can you please explain why and how?
If i'm going to see these people/strangers every day,they must see me as a butch woman,period
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun?
Now days its very important!
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
I'm NOT a he...I now joke with strangers and correct them
5b. How do/would you react?
I tell them i'm a butch woman...and leave it
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? When in doubt,I ask them what do they prefer to be called
9b. If not, why not? Sometimes I fuck up
9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community? Hoping he/hy'd stand up and correct me,no hard feelings would be taken
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns?
No
10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond?
No
10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns?
No
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun?
Yes, and I usually fuck up
11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
In the past i'd call he/hy a she,for some it can be seen as an insult to be called a Her/She
11c. If not, what do you do instead? Ask them first
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
No,all butches are not the same...even those that call themselves He/hy
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun?
say what???
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
is this a trick question?
12c. If not, what do you do instead?
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around hypothetical butch
12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
If there are hypothetical butches out there,most definintely.I mean,if you don't know what you are,how are we suppose to know what you are?...i'm curious about the different butches out there...although i'm more curious about the different femmes out there,just saying
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch?
Yes
14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you?
You have to learn somewhere
15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns?
Well,yes and no.I mean it matters that I be seen as a butch woman.Other butches can call it as they see themselves..whatever they want others how to see them
16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be?
N/A...plz
:glasses: my gawd
JDeere
01-29-2016, 04:13 AM
I have spent much of yesterday and today reading and re-reading the "Men with boobs" thread, and the use of default butch pronouns is one of many themes involved in that discussion.
I'm going to attach a poll, but there is not a poll that can cover every person's experience, thoughts, etc. So, in addition to the poll, I'm going to put a more inclusive questionaire below.
What I would like to do is ask anybody who participates in this thread to first fill out and post the questionaire - before addressing another person's answers to the questionaire.
If a question definitely does not apply to you, please write "N/A"
The Butch Pronoun Questionaire
1. How do you identify? Plain ole Butch
2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? Any of the pronouns from she, her to hy and hym.
2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? yes
2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? No
3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? Yes
3b. If so, can you please explain why and how? Depends on where I am and what situation and who is around.
4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? About 50-50
5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? N/A
5b. How do/would you react? N/A
6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? N/A
6b. How do/would you react? N/A
7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? N/A
7b. How do/would you react?N/A
8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? I would feel odd
8b. How do/would you react? Ask them to elaborate as I've never head this pronoun before
9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? Yes
9b. If not, why not? N/A
9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community? N/A
10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? No
10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond? Yes
10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns? No
11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? No I would ask
11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? N/a
11c. If not, what do you do instead? Ask them what their pronoun is
11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?No
12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? No
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?N/A
12c. If not, what do you do instead? Ask them
12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No
13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? No
13b. If so, what pronoun? n/A
13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be?N/A
14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? yes
14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you? I felt bad but learned a lesson from it
15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns? ALWAYS ALWAYS ASK
16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be? Why do pronouns even matter?
BUMP BUMP BUMP
I answered but not in color!
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.