The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[Medusa]

There was some discussion going on over in another thread about Female masculinity and how there is a certain "celebration" around a Butch person moving toward a "more masculine" way of being with adopting male pronouns, transitioning, etc.

That discussion sparked me to start thinking a little more critically about how the Femme community impacts and is impacted by this same continuum of "being more homogenous/acceptable/feminine (and insert any number of things that mean "more than what you already are")".
How do we as Femmes impact the visibility of Female Butches?

Do we, as Femmes, have a continuum in our own community where the hyper-feminine is more valid/valued? What does that look like to you when it's in action?

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?

There was also some discussion around pronoun usage and several folks brought up what it might look/feel like to a Femme if she were "he'd" on a regular basis out in the world but also (and especially) in this community.
Thoughts on this?

I'm having some thoughts on visibility and the celebration of movement toward each end of the spectrum for both Femmes and Butches. Particularly Im thinking about how there is something going on with Butches being celebrated as they move toward a more masculine presence and Femmes being celebrated if they maintain a more "hyper" Femme way of being. (Although I will say that I personally don't feel a huge push in our community to be more "valid" as Femmes by being "more" Femme)

Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community? How do you think your experience as a Femme with invisibility is affected by the marginalization of Female Butches?

I realize this is kinda random but I wanted to at least start the discussion and throw some questions out there to get us rolling. I havent had coffee this morning so I apologize if this is jumbled.

[Chancie]

Interestingly enough, here in Western Mass, behind the tofu curtain, I am seen as extra feminine, whatever that means.

I don't think of myself as a high femme, since I generally associate that with a choice of gender markers, but others have said that I am in fact a hippy-flavored high femme.

[adorable]

I think it's interesting to see how many views people get on their pics depending how masculine or feminine they appear. It's not a scientific study, but it does seem that the MORE of the societial standard of feminine and masculine the more views people seem to have.

[Enchantress]

I don't care for the way "we" are censored due to language or perceived lack of decorum by other members of our community. As though we were not ladylike enough, or genteel enough.

I want to have strong opinions, strong language and strong emotions without someone shaking their goddamn finger at me and trying to shame me into hushing. I want people to stop acting like they're my "Daddy" just because I am a Femme. I want us to be able to fuck whomever we want, whenever we want and not be called Whores or Sluts and have our morals called into question*.

I want us to stop apologizing because we pass as straight much of the time. It is what it is, and we have nothing to explain or apologize for.

:bulldog:

*June isn't allowed to date

Hallelujah!!

[Jett]

I do see a hierarchy in the femme "realm" just as I do with butch.

It's appears to me to not only have to do with outdated policed perceptions of femininity in mannerisms and appearance, but also how you identify- a to z, lesbian to transsensual... high to low... and strangely enough sometimes to where you're partner falls in the "butch hierarchy".

Oh let's not forget... how a femme behaves in the bedroom, because god forbid she top a butch... or straps (eta: or has so-called "lesbian sex").

Good thread... I'll be interested in hearing more.

Metro

[Medusa]

Oh let's not forget... how a femme behaves in the bedroom, because god forbid she top a butch... or straps (eta: or has so-called "lesbian sex").

Good thread... I'll be interested in hearing more.

Metro


And don't even get me started on the idea that Femmes are somehow "damaged" straight women.
Or straight women who are too fat or ugly to "get a real man".


I feel a tangent comin' on.

[Nat]

What an exciting thread topic - I'm really looking forward to reading everybody's responses.

When I first entered the femmebutch community, I felt lots of pressure to be more feminine. At first, it was also rather fun to get all dolled up. Also it felt freeing to play with beauty, style, femininity and know that my intended audience was queer - I felt a lot of release from the male gaze when I first entered the community.

But I'm afraid I also transferred that internalized male gaze onto butches and felt somewhat oppressed because of it.

As far as pressures go, I have over time become more frustrated with not being interpreted as queer at all - which in a way counterbalances the other pressures. *

I do resent what I see as pressure from within the community to be as straight-seeming or straight-looking as possible in order to have femme cred, but I haven't encountered that message overtly all that often.

These days I just am myself. I am feminine (I think), but not super-feminine. I just try to be authentic and I avoid people who would not appreciate me for that.

[BullDog]

There seems to be awful lot of rules for what women can look like (and act like) and be seen and taken seriously as queer/lesbian.

It seems hyper feminine is seen as the top of the femme hierarchy (most valued) but at the same time seen as the most suspect (supposedly more straight appearing), in terms of being legitimately queer/lesbian.

Why is feminine associated with straight and masculine associated with lesbian/queer when it comes to women?

[SuperFemme]

There was some discussion going on over in another thread about Female masculinity and how there is a certain "celebration" around a Butch person moving toward a "more masculine" way of being with adopting male pronouns, transitioning, etc.

That discussion sparked me to start thinking a little more critically about how the Femme community impacts and is impacted by this same continuum of "being more homogenous/acceptable/feminine (and insert any number of things that mean "more than what you already are")".
How do we as Femmes impact the visibility of Female Butches?

I wonder WHY it is that some Femmes default to He/Hy? In doing so we absolutely impact the visibility of Female Id'd Butches because we are putting the entire community into that heteronormative continuum.

Do we, as Femmes, have a continuum in our own community where the hyper-feminine is more valid/valued? What does that look like to you when it's in action?

It looks to ME like *good girls* are the preference, and outspoken, opinionated Femme's with a swagger are immediately suspect. After all, isn't swagger the property of Butches? When I see it in action to me it looks like the othering (in a negative light) of Femme's who are not traditionally feminine.

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?

Being named a slut, scary, loud, and even being named *butch* affects visibility on a very personal level. On a community level is keeps us subscribed to very binary standards.

There was also some discussion around pronoun usage and several folks brought up what it might look/feel like to a Femme if she were "he'd" on a regular basis out in the world but also (and especially) in this community.
Thoughts on this?

*I* would be at most confused if somebody "he'd" me. That comes with the caveat that I've never been read as having masculine traits, affect, or what have you. It's not a struggle I've had, and probably never will.

I'm having some thoughts on visibility and the celebration of movement toward each end of the spectrum for both Femmes and Butches. Particularly Im thinking about how there is something going on with Butches being celebrated as they move toward a more masculine presence and Femmes being celebrated if they maintain a more "hyper" Femme way of being. (Although I will say that I personally don't feel a huge push in our community to be more "valid" as Femmes by being "more" Femme)

Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? In the world at large, I'd love it and for political reasons I try to make myself visible. There are a lot of people that will not go further than "Lesbian", which I do use. Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community? Yes. How do you think your experience as a Femme with invisibility is affected by the marginalization of Female Butches? The marginalization of any faction of our community affects us all. My specific experience as a Femme who has struggled with invisibility in relation to a Female Id'd Butch having their femaleness erased is not that different at the end of the day, is it?

I realize this is kinda random but I wanted to at least start the discussion and throw some questions out there to get us rolling. I havent had coffee this morning so I apologize if this is jumbled.

I wonder if there is some kind of internal homophobia in play around specifically Femme's defaulting to He/Hy. Before I get jumped on I want to say that I am married to a Transperson. Falling in love with and staying with hym took a LOT of self examination on my part. The only way it works for "us" is that we remain Queer, that neither of us change identities for the other and that we communicate. A lot. For instance: I don't feel comfortable calling my Beloved my Husband. I've tried it on a few times and it doesn't feel right. Sometimes I say things like "I'll talk to my wife about it and see what hy says.." but for the most part I am stuck with partner. Because we are in a Queer marriage. I WISH there were words to encompass the many gender id's, but since there isn't I am willing to do the work and ask. I think I am getting off point here and not communicating what I wanted to, so I'll break now.

[Liam]

Perhaps I am the anomaly or I simply had the misfortune of trying to be a part of lesbian communities that were just nasty, but when I identified as Butch and lesbian, I was constantly told that I was, "not feminine enough," that I was, "too much like a man." I have never experienced a Butch/Femme community except as an online community and the few days I attended the BASH in Oakland, an experience that I enjoyed very much. I'm sorry to interject a post that is not about femmes, but I wanted to point out that femmes are not the only ones, who get this sort of grief. I'll shush now.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I went to an event once, as I walked in the elevator I stepped in front of 2 butch/femme couples, I did not know them, personally, I knew their names, but had never had any kind of r/t experience till that very day. I smiled and said hello and introduced myself to one couple, as I extended my had I noticed couple on the right, the femme was clasping her partners arm like she was in terror, she pulled him slightly away from me as he extended his hand to shake mine. I pulled back right away, and turned to the other couple, they too had the same look, though the femme partner did address me saying," yeah we know you", I turned my back to them and faced the doors, both women whispering to one another, how I was known for *flipping* good butches and having several sex partners at once, and then a comment about how I had no regards to even those who are partnered.

Another time, I went on a date, with a butch, she had heard I was poly, as she walked me to the car I went to hug her, she slammed me up against the car, and tried to kiss me, I pushed her off and asked wtf she was thinking. Her response, "don't be so coy, you're into that leather shit, what's a lil rough out in the parking lot?"

Then there was the time I went out with my then husband, we did a poker run, as I sat at the Dew Drop, a couple came up to me, they wanted to know if I was up for a quick switcharoo in the back of the bar, see they assumed because I was in a poly relationship with my husband, that I was interested in quick rolls in the back of bars.

I am a masculine/feminine Leather Femme Daddy. I am leather first, since that is what is mostly engrained to me, that comes with me being very sexually open, I have no issues using words such as cunt, vagina, pussy, penis, dick, cock, ass, etc etc. I am very sexually fluid, I don't care about gender I will fuck, boys, guys, FTM's, bois, girls, butches, be they masculine, female, transgendered identified or what have you. What that DOES mean is I don't fuck ALL of them at one time, or that I think they are all mine, OR that I am after your man. I am not shy about sexual talk, topics, conversations and anything else sexual. I am a firm believer that a good fuck is that a GOOD fuck and that everyone should participate in a good orgasm at least 4 times a week.. I know I will.

As a Femme, for me it has been a slow and wonderful evolution, I have found and embraced my femininity 100% and that was a slow and painful process because of the above, I did not fit into a mold that kept being shoved down my throat. In the beginning how I am now and have been was not *femme* enough. You see the idea of femme that kept being presented to me was that of soft spoken, submissive, fluffy and giggly. I found this to be confusing since the *few* femme's I did know personally were nothing like this, even if they were in a D/s enviroment, these femme's were power and did not fit this more how do I describe this, *stepford* kind of femme. It took years for me to watch, learn, get to know, and accept all kinds of femme's even though some not all would me. In my experience we as femme's are a lil more vicious when it comes to the hierarchy of femme when we decide to attack one another we tend to do it and go for the jugular, coming in forms of, innuendos, rumors, and attacks on our moral character if one is more sexual than the other.

I am a Daddy, and I ooze masculinity in my everyday life, I am very much an reflection of my Mentors, the men, dykes, butches in my life. I tend to think alot more like a guy, like more male perceived oriented things and probably have more male presenting, id'd born friends than anything else. I am Master, Sir, Daddy and Papa to the boys, and Cassandra. I strap, so I put this example here since *cocks* are more male prone then they are female prone according to the assumptions of both online, straight and b/f standards. I don't have any rules, I don't have any gender expectations and I don't assign man as default to my butch counterparts. I own 2 boys who are self made men, they are my property I am their Sir.

I don't know where I fit on the scale of Femme, I know I am one, I know that no matter who tries to tell me it's not. I am a Power Femme, my power comes from within, it's a natural part of my dominance. I don't subscribe that because I am this that anyone is lower in the femme status. Femme is femme it's not a scale of low and high, it's my gender, and I don't see gender as something you can put a scaled value, it should have *value* period, not fucking degrees of it.

This will be a great thread if we can all come from our Femme experience and without a *set* of guidelines on what femme is, because honestly what I have learned that within our Queerdom is we are so fluid all of us in gender that it evolves every day, and instead of doing the better than thou thing, we should celebrate that maybe one day gender isn't just about the F or the M we are assigned, and that it's perfectly fine to live out of the binary and for fucks sakes that EVERYONE should fuck till they are sweaty, cotton mouthed, and a lil bloodied if that so pleased you!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Liam can you share with us how this experience fits in the Femme Continuum? Do you have any other thoughts about the Femme experience?

[AtLast]

I don't care for the way "we" are censored due to language or perceived lack of decorum by other members of our community. As though we were not ladylike enough, or genteel enough.

I want to have strong opinions, strong language and strong emotions without someone shaking their goddamn finger at me and trying to shame me into hushing. I want people to stop acting like they're my "Daddy" just because I am a Femme. I want us to be able to fuck whomever we want, whenever we want and not be called Whores or Sluts and have our morals called into question*.

I want us to stop apologizing because we pass as straight much of the time. It is what it is, and we have nothing to explain or apologize for.

:bulldog:

*June isn't allowed to date

No, not one thing to apologize for!

I am so glad for this thread. It often feels like we take the full spectrum of femme identity for granted and are terribly narrow in what we consider femme. Compare the number of threads about butch identity to femme identity in terms of stereotypes predicated on the B-F dynamic.

Thanks to all in advance and I am listening to you all! This is a great opportunity for butches to get the facts!

[Liam]

Liam can you share with us how this experience fits in the Femme Continuum? Do you have any other thoughts about the Femme experience?

My post was in response to Bulldog's...

There seems to be awful lot of rules for what women can look like (and act like) and be seen and taken seriously as queer/lesbian.

It seems hyper feminine is seen as the top of the femme hierarchy (most valued) but at the same time seen as the most suspect (supposedly more straight appearing), in terms of being legitimately queer/lesbian.

Why is feminine associated with straight and masculine associated with lesbian/queer when it comes to women?

particularly the statement I bolded. My experience has been that masculine is not associated with lesbian, and that is the only point I was making. As I stated earlier, that is the only comment I would be making in this thread, but thanks for asking.

[BullDog]

I believe you may have misunderstood me, but there is an entire thread already discussing how masculine women are seen. I believe that women that have what is perceived to be a feminine appearance are usually read as straight.

[SuperFemme]

I believe you may have misunderstood me, but there is an entire thread already discussing how masculine women are seen. I believe that women that have what is perceived to be a feminine appearance are usually read as straight.

That is how I read it. That Femme is perceived and read as straight, whereas Butch seems to be read as Queer most times.

[BullDog]

That is how I read it. That Femme is perceived and read as straight, whereas Butch seems to be read as Queer most times.

Yes and many masculine women who are not butch or lesbian/queer are often read as lesbian/queer as well.

I guess my point was, the standard for lesbian/queer seems to lean more towards the androgynous/masculine side than to the feminine side.

[SuperFemme]

Yes and many masculine women who are not butch or lesbian/queer are often read as lesbian/queer as well.

I guess my point was, the standard for lesbian/queer seems to lean more towards the androgynous/masculine side than to the feminine side.

I wonder why that is? Is it just THAT ingrained? Remember when K.D. Lang was on the cover of some magazine with Cindy Crawford giving her a shave?

On one hand it was kind of hot, just because I adore K.D. Lang. But it kind of pissed me off that she was up there with a hyper feminine straight girl. I felt uber icky about that.

[Linus]

I wonder why that is? Is it just THAT ingrained? Remember when K.D. Lang was on the cover of some magazine with Cindy Crawford giving her a shave?

On one hand it was kind of hot, just because I adore K.D. Lang. But it kind of pissed me off that she was up there with a hyper feminine straight girl. I felt uber icky about that.

What femme lesbians existed back then? How would you know? (and I'm thinking mainstream media models -- IIRC, this was for a fashion magazine)

I think that was one of the prime examples of femmes being invisible (I know Crawford -- or at least I believe she isn't -- gay but how would we know?).

[Mrs. Strutt]

I want us to stop apologizing because we pass as straight much of the time.
And I would like others in our very own community to stop looking right through us when they meet us on the street in automatic assumption we are straight.

[SuperFemme]

What femme lesbians existed back then? How would you know? (and I'm thinking mainstream media models -- IIRC, this was for a fashion magazine)

I think that was one of the prime examples of femmes being invisible (I know Crawford -- or at least I believe she isn't -- gay but how would we know?).

What mainstream media models of femme exist NOW for that matter?

[Linus]

What mainstream media models of femme exist NOW for that matter?

True. If they are there, we don't know or they choose to keep quiet.

[SuperFemme]

True. If they are there, we don't know or they choose to keep quiet.

I can't think of any. Not that I don't sometimes want to label somebody, like say...Portia Derossi and Ellen. The thing is, they haven't mentioned it and though I'd love it, it's not so. The very FACT that I want to label them a cute Butch Femme couple is wrong. I think it comes from desperately wanting role models and people "like me" in my every day media.

[Linus]

I can't think of any. Not that I don't sometimes want to label somebody, like say...Portia Derossi and Ellen. The thing is, they haven't mentioned it and though I'd love it, it's not so. The very FACT that I want to label them a cute Butch Femme couple is wrong. I think it comes from desperately wanting role models and people "like me" in my every day media.


I don't think that's wrong. I know that Kirsten Vangsness is gay and for some reason struck me as femme but not sure why. (I don't believe she's in a B-F relationship however). I think the media is stuck on the idea that a femme is a non-existent being (being lesbian and being feminine is not allowed as far as the MSM is concerned -- unless it's pr0n.)

[SassyLeo]

I don't care for the way "we" are censored due to language or perceived lack of decorum by other members of our community. As though we were not ladylike enough, or genteel enough.

I want to have strong opinions, strong language and strong emotions without someone shaking their goddamn finger at me and trying to shame me into hushing. I want people to stop acting like they're my "Daddy" just because I am a Femme. I want us to be able to fuck whomever we want, whenever we want and not be called Whores or Sluts and have our morals called into question*.

I want us to stop apologizing because we pass as straight much of the time. It is what it is, and we have nothing to explain or apologize for.

:bulldog:

*June isn't allowed to date

There is a person I have met on several occasions, who lives in the area. She identifies as a top/daddy type. The first time I met her, I walked into a gay bar where I was meeting others...she immediately bombarded me a VERY assertive schpeel... -was I new in town-, -where was I from-, -am I kinky-, etc. Upon further conversation, she asked me if I had gotten involved in the local BDSM scene. At the time, I had been to a few meet-ups and networked a bit... but wasn't really "in" it. She proceeded to try to "top" me... and I don't mean in a physical sense, but energetically and verbally. I don't even know if I could explain it, but I could just feel it, almost like a predator. She gave me her business card and said if I "really wanted to get connected to the "right" scene, to call her. The other groups in town were a "mess", "too soft" etc. She asked for my info and I said, "Look, I'm not a bottom and I do not give out my number." She gave me a shocked look and said, "Well, keep my card, you'll change your mind" and winked at me.

Now I realize we are all not like this... (Looking at Snowy :king:) ;)

I am femme. Probably considered very femme, by appearances. It pisses me off that there is a stereotype attached to us, that we are all bottoms/subs, etc. I can be whatever the fuck I want.

In the world we all make assumptions about people, everyday. I wish that in my OWN community this didn't happen... but I don't know if that is possible.

[Medusa]

I'd like to explore how Femme Top energy isn't always in a masculine or "Daddy" form.

But yes, Femme often equals "fuckee" in a lot of people's minds. Even when it does, I don't think it should equal "less than".

[Pretty Woman]

I can't think of any. Not that I don't sometimes want to label somebody, like say...Portia Derossi and Ellen. The thing is, they haven't mentioned it and though I'd love it, it's not so. The very FACT that I want to label them a cute Butch Femme couple is wrong. I think it comes from desperately wanting role models and people "like me" in my every day media.
But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost! But did anyone see the Cynthia Nixon interview last week where she referred to her butch fiancee as 'a man with boobs'? Honestly, I was offended as it struck me as apologetically homophobic!
I don't think that's wrong. I know that Kirsten Vangsness is gay and for some reason struck me as femme but not sure why. (I don't believe she's in a B-F relationship however). I think the media is stuck on the idea that a femme is a non-existent being (being lesbian and being feminine is not allowed as far as the MSM is concerned -- unless it's pr0n.)
I couldn't disagree more. I often feel that the only 'acceptables' are femmes...the straighter looking the better. And that butches only get noticed by the MSM when the media wants us for a freak show. Sort of analogous to when the local news only shows the Radical Fairies at gay pride.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've no clue if Portia is a Femme, or uses that gender identity, I believe though she has been dating women since 04 how long do we hold on to the straight chick label before we are ok'd to be gay, queer etc?

[SuperFemme]

From the Advocate interview:


"Christine would probably kill me for saying this, but my daughter said one time that if you really had to break this down, [it looks like] she would be butch and I would be femme…but really once you get to know us it’s really the opposite.”

Does this out them as a Butch-Femme couple? Or not? Curious.

[Semantics]

And I would like others in our very own community to stop looking right through us when they meet us on the street in automatic assumption we are straight.

:)

I'm never recognized as queer unless I'm on the arm of a butch. It's kind of a drag for a single person. :lol2:

Short of wearing a rainbow jumpsuit I'm not sure what to do about it.




[COLOR="Blue"]But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost!

Oh. Do you know her?

She's married to a woman. I don't really know how either she or her wife identify but I think it's unkind to reduce a couple's relationship to a "publicity boost".

[Linus]

But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost! But did anyone see the Cynthia Nixon interview last week where she referred to her butch fiancee as 'a man with boobs'? Honestly, I was offended as it struck me as apologetically homophobic!

I couldn't disagree more. I often feel that the only 'acceptables' are femmes...the straighter looking the better. And that butches only get noticed by the MSM when the media wants us for a freak show. Sort of analogous to when the local news only shows the Radical Fairies at gay pride.


But do they see them as femmes or feminine lesbians??

[Apocalipstic]

Do we know Portia? How do we know she is straight? I mean, she had a pretty great career before Ellen being in Ally McBeal, and had a G/F even back then.

Isn't this what we are talking about? How unless we look Butch people think we are straight women? Taking Butches away from 'real" Lesbians.

I had other things to say, but this stopped me in my tracks.

UGH.

[The_Lady_Snow]

:)

I'm never recognized as queer unless I'm on the arm of a butch. It's kind of a drag for a single person. :lol2:

Short of wearing a rainbow jumpsuit I'm not sure what to do about it.

.

Hi Semantics!!

My experience has been that if you get to know me as a femme, person or in an intimate relationship, you are gonna know I am queer. My language, ideals, politics, religion, sex, I know for *me* once you start a conversation it sounds nothing like that of a straight woman. Make sense?

[Pretty Woman]

:)




Oh. Do you know her?

She's married to a woman. I don't really know how either she or her wife identify but I think it's unkind to reduce a couple's relationship to a "publicity boost".

I've no clue if Portia is a Femme, or uses that gender identity, I believe though she has been dating women since 04 how long do we hold on to the straight chick label before we are ok'd to be gay, queer etc?

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

[SassyLeo]

But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost!

I cannot tell if you are being glib? Because I don't believe that at all. Are you sure you don't mean Anne Heche?


But did anyone see the Cynthia Nixon interview last week where she referred to her butch fiancee as 'a man with boobs'? Honestly, I was offended as it struck me as apologetically homophobic!

Uh, yes. There is a whole thread about that here: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1357


I couldn't disagree more. I often feel that the only 'acceptables' are femmes...the straighter looking the better. And that butches only get noticed by the MSM when the media wants us for a freak show. Sort of analogous to when the local news only shows the Radical Fairies at gay pride.

[Apocalipstic]

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

How come she had girlfriends before Ellen?

[The_Lady_Snow]

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?



No, I have no friends who know of her, know her, so no I don't know her enough to say if she is Femme, straight, or if she is out to trick the world with her wiley straight ways and pretend she is gay.

I am clueless... I just figured she was married to Ellen, dated some singer in 04 who happened to be a woman, made her a lil on the gay side of the spectrum.

I am wrong, I guess?:tiredcomputer:

[SuperFemme]

I'm not willing to denounce any Queer's membership to Queerdom, especially when they've come out in Hollywood. I wish MORE people in the entertainment industry would be out...I really do.

[Semantics]

Hi Semantics!!

My experience has been that if you get to know me as a femme, person or in an intimate relationship, you are gonna know I am queer. My language, ideals, politics, religion, sex, I know for *me* once you start a conversation it sounds nothing like that of a straight woman. Make sense?

Yes. Thank you. :)


To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

I think that we step onto dangerous ground when we belittle queer relationships as publicity stunts/ not real. This is already done to us by society and I dislike seeing it in our community.

If you know them personally and want to spead that around, go right ahead. :)

[SuperFemme]

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. It was a bad example...regarding representation in mainstream media.

[Linus]

I can't think of any. Not that I don't sometimes want to label somebody, like say...Portia Derossi and Ellen. The thing is, they haven't mentioned it and though I'd love it, it's not so. The very FACT that I want to label them a cute Butch Femme couple is wrong. I think it comes from desperately wanting role models and people "like me" in my every day media.

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. It was a bad example...regarding representation in mainstream media.

I don't know if it's that much of a derail (IMO) to want role models. MSM is where we tend to look. Why not celebrate in a femme who is a major figure (model, actor, politician, whatever)?

[Apocalipstic]

I have had people say I am just a straight woman and that I want a man.

I have been an out Lesbian since 1984. I strap on. I love pussy. I have a girlfriend.

What does it take to accepted as Femme?

To have no one jealous of me who just says shit?

What does Portia have to do?

[SuperFemme]

I don't know if it's that much of a derail (IMO) to want role models. MSM is where we tend to look. Why not celebrate in a femme who is a major figure (model, actor, politician, whatever)?

I think it is normal to want role models. We have the unique opportunity of having a teenager that id's as a bisexual Femme. I find it fascinating that because she has been socialized in a Butch/Femme household that it is all normal for her. We pay special attention because the house is often filled with baby butches and femmes who are drawn here like moths to flame.

I wonder what I'd be like today had I been socialized in a Butch/Femme environment?

[BullDog]

I certainly understand June's point about wanting stories from us, but why is a feminine appearing woman's status (whether femme or not) as lesbian/queer more often than not in doubt? She's been dating women since 1999, been married to a woman since 2008. Is anyone wondering whether the more androgynous Ellen is really a lesbian?

Anyway, here's a recent interview Portia de Rossi did

http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=106125

[Apocalipstic]

I guess I don't know what to say now.

I mean all we can do is say we are Femme. If someone wants to think we are just straight women then they are free to say whatever they want to say.

A year or so ago someone I considered a really good friend said I was just a straight woman and implied I cheated on Cynthia with men. I am still speechless and very hurt.

All we can do in response is just be ourselves.

I do think it is important to note that when Femmes say "oh so and so is not really Femme or even Queer" it demeans all of us. It's like the ultimate insult for someone Femmes don't like. The ultimate cut. Be who I want you to be or with who I want you to be with or you are a straight woman.

What answer is there for that?

[Linus]

I guess I don't know what to say now.

I mean all we can do is say we are Femme. If someone wants to think we are just straight women then they are free to say whatever they want to say.

A year or so ago someone I considered a really good friend said I was just a straight woman and implied I cheated on Cynthia with men. I am still speechless and very hurt.

All we can do in response is just be ourselves.

I do think it is important to note that when Femmes say "oh so and so is not really Femme or even Queer" it demeans all of us. It's like the ultimate insult for someone Femmes don't like. The ultimate cut. Be who I want you to be or with who I want you to be with or you are a straight woman.

What answer is there for that?


Educate them.

You will need to educate people since it's not in MSM and they won't understand otherwise if they are not clued in. It sucks to have to out yourself each time to educate them but unfortunately, it's a reality in society (it's a page from the trans community and sometimes, something we have to do; I haven't had to do this yet but have no qualms about doing it if the situation ever rises -- I'm already used to educating colleagues who should know but..).

[The_Lady_Snow]

I guess I don't know what to say now.

I mean all we can do is say we are Femme. If someone wants to think we are just straight women then they are free to say whatever they want to say.

A year or so ago someone I considered a really good friend said I was just a straight woman and implied I cheated on Cynthia with men. I am still speechless and very hurt.

All we can do in response is just be ourselves.

I do think it is important to note that when Femmes say "oh so and so is not really Femme or even Queer" it demeans all of us. It's like the ultimate insult for someone Femmes don't like. The ultimate cut. Be who I want you to be or with who I want you to be with or you are a straight woman.

What answer is there for that?

This is where I feel Femme's are more fierce when it comes to criticizing one another.. We tend to go for the jugular... I am not straight, straight looking, straight acting nothing. Yes I was married, I have been tagged as *breeder* and NONE of that can take away from what I am

That is Femme... combat boots and all.:eyebat:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I certainly understand June's point about wanting stories from us, but why is a feminine appearing woman's status (whether femme or not) as lesbian/queer more often than not in doubt? She's been dating women since 1999, been married to a woman since 2008. Is anyone wondering whether the more androgynous Ellen is really a lesbian?

Anyway, here's a recent interview Portia de Rossi did

http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=106125

The more feminine one appears, the more people put our value down.. I know for me sometimes my own peers will not recognize or ignore that I am femme unless I have a masculine appearing counterpart on my arm oh wait more like me on theirs..

Make sense?

[blush]

That discussion sparked me to start thinking a little more critically about how the Femme community impacts and is impacted by this same continuum of "being more homogenous/acceptable/feminine (and insert any number of things that mean "more than what you already are")".
How do we as Femmes impact the visibility of Female Butches?
This question made me defensive, and I don't really know why. My gut reaction is I don't really care how I impact others' visibility, especially butches. So often femmes are identified by who we fuck vs. who we are. This question struck me as an extension of that stereotype. I think the phrasing made me feel like I should apologize if I do impact their visibility. Perhaps I'm just not sure what you mean?

Do we, as Femmes, have a continuum in our own community where the hyper-feminine is more valid/valued? What does that look like to you when it's in action?
I don't feel it as much as I used to in my immediate (R/T)community. I have felt it strongly in the past. It looks like my Hooters/Martha Stewart movie nightmare. It reinforces boring stereotypes and creates competition to be the fairest of them all.

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?
Whose visibility? Femmes? or the whole community?

There was also some discussion around pronoun usage and several folks brought up what it might look/feel like to a Femme if she were "he'd" on a regular basis out in the world but also (and especially) in this community.
Thoughts on this?
I wouldn't like it.

I'm having some thoughts on visibility and the celebration of movement toward each end of the spectrum for both Femmes and Butches. Particularly Im thinking about how there is something going on with Butches being celebrated as they move toward a more masculine presence and Femmes being celebrated if they maintain a more "hyper" Femme way of being. (Although I will say that I personally don't feel a huge push in our community to be more "valid" as Femmes by being "more" Femme)

Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community? How do you think your experience as a Femme with invisibility is affected by the marginalization of Female Butches?
It is important for me to be seen as femme. Femmes tend to be fierce, unique beings who grab femininity by the balls and never let go. So to speak. I'm proud to be one. I don't think my experience as a femme is affected by the marginalization of female butches, but my social circle is almost exclusively male identified butches.

[SuperFemme]

I hate hate hate the term Breeder. It makes me soooo angry, and it's just another way of othering.

[Apocalipstic]

Educate them.

You will need to educate people since it's not in MSM and they won't understand otherwise if they are not clued in. It sucks to have to out yourself each time to educate them but unfortunately, it's a reality in society (it's a page from the trans community and sometimes, something we have to do; I haven't had to do this yet but have no qualms about doing it if the situation ever rises -- I'm already used to educating colleagues who should know but..).

Yes, I try to, but it only happens in the Butch Femme community, not out in the world. My STRAIGHT friends get it, even my regular Lesbian friends. It happens in this community as a slam.

This is where I feel Femme's are more fierce when it comes to criticizing one another.. We tend to go for the jugular... I am not straight, straight looking, straight acting nothing. Yes I was married, I have been tagged as *breeder* and NONE of that can take away from what I am

That is Femme... combat boots and all.:eyebat:

I wish we could as Femmes be more supportive of each other and if we are going to toss insults pick one other than so and so is straight!

That negates so much about who we are!

Fierce Femmes!

[Apocalipstic]

Forgive me, I am tired today....

But if Butch is just something evolving into something else?
and Femme can suddenly be straight if someone says so?

Then why are we even here?

We really don't exist at all if this is true.

I know, I know.....:dontfeedmods:

Just have been reading the threads from over the weekend, and I feel kind of empty right now.

Will be back tomorrow, maybe the sun will be shining and I will feel more my usual :spider: self.

[Nat]

Portia and Ellen are so adorable together and they really seem a bit private to me. I would absolutely hate to think that their relationship is anything but the real thing - I guess I do care on a personal level. I have just been really impressed with how they are managing. I think Ellen is really in a great position to "change hearts and minds" of mainstream America and I think she's doing a great job. I guess I read them both as pretty genuine and I am grateful to them both for being willing to play the role they play in American culture.

I remember talking to an guy friend of mine about a huge crush I had on a butch back before I figured it out. He said - of course you like the butch ones -that's because you're straight. What sucks is that I didn't understand myself or butches enough to question him.

A good female friend of mine - whom I flirted with regularly - would say often to me, "you just think you're a lesbian because you haven't tried it. I thought I was until I tried it, and then I knew I wasn't." I bought that line for a long time. The most damaging thing about buying that line is that I felt like I could not id as a lesbian unless I had fucked a woman. I didn't feel legitimately capable of saying that I knew. If I had been butch or if I had been more androgynous, I don't think I would have gotten that feedback and I think other lesbians would have at least recognized me during that very ling period of time that I questioned myself. So I think being invisible to others kinda led me back into the closet every time I tried to come out or even come out to myself. There are days when I severely wish I had those years back, but i should have been more confident in my knowledge of myself at a younger age.

I could have saved myself so much time if I hadn't sought so much advice from straight people.

[Pretty Woman]

Well all of that certainly got things going! And my goodnes folks are quick to jump on someone in here. But yes I do mean Portia and not Anne Heche. That's another whole crazy can of worms and not for here at all.
But in any case, the point is that sometimes I read that we want MSM role models and will take them in any way we can get them. I don't agree and prefer to think of regular femmes who live an out loud life on a daily basis as the heroines of this story. But then when we start to discuss one 'star' or another folks tend to throw in the 'who cares...I'd rather talk amongst ourselves'. And so would I but also in the context of the MSM because in many ways that defines us in spite of ourselves and what we say here. It's that deconstruction that interests me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well all of that certainly got things going! And my goodnes folks are quick to jump on someone in here. But yes I do mean Portia and not Anne Heche. That's another whole crazy can of worms and not for here at all.
But in any case, the point is that sometimes I read that we want MSM role models and will take them in any way we can get them. I don't agree and prefer to think of regular femmes who live an out loud life on a daily basis as the heroines of this story. But then when we start to discuss one 'star' or another folks tend to throw in the 'who cares...I'd rather talk amongst ourselves'. And so would I but also in the context of the MSM because in many ways that defines us in spite of ourselves and what we say here. It's that deconstruction that interests me.


I don't need any Main Stream to define who I am, hell I don't think that we will ever be evolved enough to allow women talk about having strap ons, slaves, and love orgasms giving them or getting them. So I am not understanding how you can say this??... I really can't..

Yanno I did not think there were Queer Police who had guidelines or timelines to how long you have to be in the in crowd to be allowed the gay card.... I don't feel that was ok, and very erasing to our newly hatched (recently out) femmes in this community

[SuperFemme]

Well all of that certainly got things going! And my goodnes folks are quick to jump on someone in here. But yes I do mean Portia and not Anne Heche. That's another whole crazy can of worms and not for here at all.
But in any case, the point is that sometimes I read that we want MSM role models and will take them in any way we can get them. I don't agree and prefer to think of regular femmes who live an out loud life on a daily basis as the heroines of this story. But then when we start to discuss one 'star' or another folks tend to throw in the 'who cares...I'd rather talk amongst ourselves'. And so would I but also in the context of the MSM because in many ways that defines us in spite of ourselves and what we say here. It's that deconstruction that interests me.

First, I don't think anyone has said we need MSM role models to define us. It would be nice to see our community represented much in the same way that I love having Hispanic role models in the MSM.

We are far to particular to "take them in any way we can get them." which was my point when I originally mentioned Portia Derossi. It was a side effect of mentioning our invisibility. In r/t and in the MSM.

I'm pretty sure we're going to continue being our Femme selves whether or not a Femme in the Entertainment industry is out and proud. We're surrounded by every day role models here in this very community and I love that.

[Pretty Woman]

No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.

[The_Lady_Snow]

No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.


PW I was not being unwelcoming, nor was I yelling at you, I thought I had made it clear that I did not get your post. I did disagree with the way you worded Portia's queer status, I don't feel that is right.

[SassyLeo]

No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.

I don't think they are "yelling" at you... (and I am sure they will correct me if I am wrong) the fortunate part of being around here a long time is you get to know personalities and how people write...

They are fierce femmes :4femme: :D

I've said this in another thread...while I don't think stars are the end-all-be-all in terms of representing the gay community, I believe they have some bit of responsibility to not act like assholes. I mean, they all make mistakes and do dumb things in the eye of the media, but is it really so smart to lambaste them when they use the wrong pronoun or say something not as evolved as we try to be?

I'm really an advocate for education; esp for stars and media types.

[Medusa]

I get a little irked about movie stars or singers being representative of the LGBTQIA community, especially when so many of them have been sanitized by their agents as to be more "acceptable".

Look at Rachel Maddow. Perfectly fine Lesbian who was kinda "dolled up" when she got her tv show.
Ellen? Same thing.

Hollywood culture is (to me) generally vapid anyway so Im really not all that suprised when people make asshattish comments.

Now, let Dorothy Allison make a "men with boobs" comment and I would be up her ass so quick it wouldn't be funny. Maybe its because I expect more from her because she has already shown herself to be an elevated thinker.
Maybe its because I KNOW she identifies as a Femme.

More thinking on that one.

[Apocalipstic]

Well all of that certainly got things going! And my goodnes folks are quick to jump on someone in here. But yes I do mean Portia and not Anne Heche. That's another whole crazy can of worms and not for here at all.
But in any case, the point is that sometimes I read that we want MSM role models and will take them in any way we can get them. I don't agree and prefer to think of regular femmes who live an out loud life on a daily basis as the heroines of this story. But then when we start to discuss one 'star' or another folks tend to throw in the 'who cares...I'd rather talk amongst ourselves'. And so would I but also in the context of the MSM because in many ways that defines us in spite of ourselves and what we say here. It's that deconstruction that interests me.


[
No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.


So if we disagree with you we are unwelcoming and yelling?

We have to agree with you to be welcoming?

I personally was offended when you jumped in out of no where saying that someone who has dated women for several years is straight.

Most of us have been called straight too because we don't look gay, or because someone wants our partners for themselves, can you see where it might be upsetting for you to use those same words, star or not? I bristle when someone suggests anyone queer is straight unless they have specific PROOF and even so, it is none of your or our business.

Have you been on the site before under a different name? You seem pretty opinionated about this and us.

[Pretty Woman]

[



So if we disagree with you we are unwelcoming and yelling? Of course not, I welcome the conversation. That was about tone not content.
We have to agree with you to be welcoming? See above.
I personally was offended when you jumped in out of no where saying that someone who has dated women for several years is straight. Sorry to offend you. I am very leary of recently out women from personal history. So we will agree to disagree on that.
Most of us have been called straight too because we don't look gay, or because someone wants our partners for themselves, can you see where it might be upsetting for you to use those same words, star or not? I bristle when someone suggests anyone queer is straight unless they have specific PROOF and even so, it is none of your or our business. Again, this was in the context of an opinion that I shared on a website where all comments are welcome. And I have been an out femme now for some 30+ years so I get the history, risks, etc. But thanks for the reminder (re: lecture).
Have you been on the site before under a different name? You seem pretty opinionated about this and us. On this site, just a few weeks. On the other site for awhile. But I didn't know that there was a training period here before folks are allowed to chime in. And honestly, I could say the same by the nature of your post and the inferences about me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

On this site, just a few weeks. On the other site for awhile. But I didn't know that there was a training period here before folks are allowed to chime in. And honestly, I could say the same by the nature of your post and the inferences about me.

Hi PW,

There isn't a training period for anything, just like there is no way to say what makes someone gay or not make sense?

Can you share your Femme experience with us? please..

Thank you.

[Nat]

I have been realizing today exactly how much I still defer internally to both masculinity and maleness. I then feel oppressed and resentful of both. I feel like if a guy or butch says something about how she/he/hy/etc would like for femmes or women to behave differently, I feel oppressed and resentful due specifically to the fact that I weigh their criticisms so heavily. And then, "quit criticizing femmes, quit oppressing femmes, you don't have the right to oppress us," is the loudest and clearest voice in my mind.

Because of this cacophony between my ears, I cannot tell how much of this is just inside me and how much is coming from without. It feels like it's from without, but the human brain is weird like that sometimes.

The issue is still with myself. If I could somehow treat all genders and levels of masculinity or femininity with equal respect rather than feeling compelled to defer and then resenting the power I myself have handed to both masculinity and maleness, then I would have so much more clarity and peace within myself as a femme, as a woman, as a member of this community and as a member of the human race.

It would feel so lovely if one day there were no part inside me that felt the compulsion to crawl just because some masculine or male person voiced a complaint or expectation. Then the choice would move more easily beyond compliance or defiance and into the realm of real respect and self-respect, real ability to hear and a real ability to respond to criticism, observations, complaints and requests from across the gender spectrum in a more reasoned and clear way.

The thing is - I do not know how to unlearn this. I dont know how to remove that compliance/defiance button inside myself. Does anybody else experience this? Has anybody else successfully purged this or unlearned it or patched in some neutralizing attitudes or in any other way moved beyond this? If so, how?

[Apocalipstic]

There was some discussion going on over in another thread about Female masculinity and how there is a certain "celebration" around a Butch person moving toward a "more masculine" way of being with adopting male pronouns, transitioning, etc.

That discussion sparked me to start thinking a little more critically about how the Femme community impacts and is impacted by this same continuum of "being more homogenous/acceptable/feminine (and insert any number of things that mean "more than what you already are")".
How do we as Femmes impact the visibility of Female Butches?

Do we, as Femmes, have a continuum in our own community where the hyper-feminine is more valid/valued? What does that look like to you when it's in action?

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?

There was also some discussion around pronoun usage and several folks brought up what it might look/feel like to a Femme if she were "he'd" on a regular basis out in the world but also (and especially) in this community.
Thoughts on this?

I'm having some thoughts on visibility and the celebration of movement toward each end of the spectrum for both Femmes and Butches. Particularly Im thinking about how there is something going on with Butches being celebrated as they move toward a more masculine presence and Femmes being celebrated if they maintain a more "hyper" Femme way of being. (Although I will say that I personally don't feel a huge push in our community to be more "valid" as Femmes by being "more" Femme)

Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community? How do you think your experience as a Femme with invisibility is affected by the marginalization of Female Butches?

I realize this is kinda random but I wanted to at least start the discussion and throw some questions out there to get us rolling. I havent had coffee this morning so I apologize if this is jumbled.


So back to the original post and how I see myself as Femme.

Several thoughts.

I do find that since I "came out" as Femme after many years of being a Feminine Lesbian who dated mostly jocks and Butches who did not really claim Femme, I dress more femininely. Or maybe I feel like I am safe to dress and act in a more feminine manner when I am with a Butch? I don't know.

I don't think anyone would know I am even Queer at all, unless I am with a Butch. It used to bother me, now I really don't care.

As for impacting Female IDd Butches....I wonder if when people seem them with us, they are more likely to assume they are men? At a glance do they see boy/girl? Though, it seems that other Femmes are the main ones in real time who seem to have a problem calling Cynthia and Deb and other female idd Butches "she". I am not sure how we can help this, other than continuing to educate who we can.

[Pretty Woman]

Hi PW,

There isn't a training period for anything, just like there is no way to say what makes someone gay or not make sense?

Can you share your Femme experience with us? please..

Thank you.
Thanks for the open door, Lady Snow. And yes what you say does make sense and I get the connection but I just happen not to be interested too much in supporting folks that are just coming out. We can discuss later if you'd like. I realize it's not a popular opinion here.
Not sure where to start to introduce my femmeness to the rest of you on this thread. Let's see. Out as a femme for about 3 decades (although I didn't have the language for it back then) starting in a small town in GA where there were lots of butches (on a military base) and not so many visible femmes. Moved to DC--NO FEMMES TO BE FOUND, and not so many butches either. Been in NYC for about 20 years and landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity.
My first BF sexual experience was with a butch who notched her belt on newly minted femmes, straight women exploring sexuality to be more to the point. At the time that worked for me too as I was interested in another butch but had no sexual experience and didn't want to try it out first with someone that I was way more than a little bit hot for. And, I had one relationship that ended when the butch figured hy was more attracted to elusive and challenging straight women than to femmes. Devestated at the time but in retrospect a great learning for me.
I look very straight on first glance, but as you wrote in an earlier post here, it doesn't take 5 minutes in a conversation to figure out that I'm femme. In some sense the fact that in my earlier life I 'could pass' helped me to come out. I was tired of the heteronormative assumptions by everyone, including a very dyke older boss at the time. I have a son who I raised alone (he's 33 now) and in addition to my appearance that sealed the straight assumption since it was long before butches and femmes had babies of their own accord.
I work in a field dominated by straight men and I know that I've fully swallowed my femme self because none of them try to hit on me anymore!
Enough rambling for now, but happy to say more as we get to know each other here.

[Apocalipstic]

I have been realizing today exactly how much I still defer internally to both masculinity and maleness. I then feel oppressed and resentful of both. I feel like if a guy or butch says something about how she/he/hy/etc would like for femmes or women to behave differently, I feel oppressed and resentful due specifically to the fact that I weigh their criticisms so heavily. And then, "quit criticizing femmes, quit oppressing femmes, you don't have the right to oppress us," is the loudest and clearest voice in my mind.

Because of this cacophony between my ears, I cannot tell how much of this is just inside me and how much is coming from without. It feels like it's from without, but the human brain is weird like that sometimes.

The issue is still with myself. If I could somehow treat all genders and levels of masculinity or femininity with equal respect rather than feeling compelled to defer and then resenting the power I myself have handed to both masculinity and maleness, then I would have so much more clarity and peace within myself as a femme, as a woman, as a member of this community and as a member of the human race.

It would feel so lovely if one day there were no part inside me that felt the compulsion to crawl just because some masculine or male person voiced a complaint or expectation. Then the choice would move more easily beyond compliance or defiance and into the realm of real respect and self-respect, real ability to hear and a real ability to respond to criticism, observations, complaints and requests from across the gender spectrum in a more reasoned and clear way.

The thing is - I do not know how to unlearn this. I dont know how to remove that compliance/defiance button inside myself. Does anybody else experience this? Has anybody else successfully purged this or unlearned it or patched in some neutralizing attitudes or in any other way moved beyond this? If so, how?

very interesting post Nat! Do you mind explaining how you defer to men and maleness?

I kind of have the opposite thing going on, if a man or someone I perceive as male says something about how I should act I laugh, if a woman does I take it to heart way too much.

I wonder if maybe it's how we grew up? our childhoods? Maybe because my Mom died when I was so young, I yearn for female approval and am more freaked out when I don't get it?

[Apocalipstic]

As for passing as straight....

I have always, just once, wanted to get the nod from another queer person. You know, like Butches and women who "look" more stereotypically gay do.

Maybe at the reunion, we can give each other the nod?

[christie]

I'd like to explore how Femme Top energy isn't always in a masculine or "Daddy" form.

But yes, Femme often equals "fuckee" in a lot of people's minds. Even when it does, I don't think it should equal "less than".


Are you looking to explore how Femme Top energy isn’t in masculine or Daddy form within someone's kink or how its feminine energy is everyday life? I see the two as distinctly different, yet similar and often related.

Let's see if I can expand... within BDSM and the dynamics of mine and Jess' relationship, if I am in Top space, its under the direction of my Syr and is feminine in nature. I would be Ma'am.

I do have a masculine Daddy Top energy that is never present with my Syr.

In my relationships/interludes before Jess, this wasn't always the case. I can say that within Top headspace, I am more comfortable in the masculine.

In my day-to-day world, my Femme Top energy is present. Most times, it just takes the form of being a more-than-capable business person and doing my job of running the company I work for... sometimes it is present in more of a "Mean Mommy" way in that in my position of authority, I often have to temper constructive criticism with the natural nurturer/caretaker I am.

In our bedroom, my Femme Top energy is never present. Again, pre-Jess, I was quite comfortable being either fucker or fuckee.

I have never felt "less than" in celebrating and owning the strength I find in being a Femme or in being female; although, I have had many experiences of people (of any ID/orientation) try to impose such upon me. I'm rather quick to remind them of just whom they are dealing with - and on my worst of days, it’s a force to be reckoned with. On my best days, one might wanna pack a lunch.


As for passing as straight....

I have always, just once, wanted to get the nod from another queer person. You know, like Butches and women who "look" more stereotypically gay do.

Maybe at the reunion, we can give each other the nod?

I say we do one better - when we blow into Nashvegas in a couple of weeks (I hope you are there and not in London - and I haven't mentioned that I am quite envious!) I say we have a pre-reunion nodfest!

[SassyLeo]

Thanks for the open door, Lady Snow. And yes what you say does make sense and I get the connection but I just happen not to be interested too much in supporting folks that are just coming out. We can discuss later if you'd like. I realize it's not a popular opinion here.
Not sure where to start to introduce my femmeness to the rest of you on this thread. Let's see. Out as a femme for about 3 decades (although I didn't have the language for it back then) starting in a small town in GA where there were lots of butches (on a military base) and not so many visible femmes. Moved to DC--NO FEMMES TO BE FOUND, and not so many butches either. Been in NYC for about 20 years and landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity.
My first BF sexual experience was with a butch who notched her belt on newly minted femmes, straight women exploring sexuality to be more to the point. At the time that worked for me too as I was interested in another butch but had no sexual experience and didn't want to try it out first with someone that I was way more than a little bit hot for. And, I had one relationship that ended when the butch figured hy was more attracted to elusive and challenging straight women than to femmes. Devestated at the time but in retrospect a great learning for me.
I look very straight on first glance, but as you wrote in an earlier post here, it doesn't take 5 minutes in a conversation to figure out that I'm femme. In some sense the fact that in my earlier life I 'could pass' helped me to come out. I was tired of the heteronormative assumptions by everyone, including a very dyke older boss at the time. I have a son who I raised alone (he's 33 now) and in addition to my appearance that sealed the straight assumption since it was long before butches and femmes had babies of their own accord.
I work in a field dominated by straight men and I know that I've fully swallowed my femme self because none of them try to hit on me anymore!
Enough rambling for now, but happy to say more as we get to know each other here.

I am having a very hard time with what you are saying here... in one sentence you say...

...landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity.

And you also say...

I just happen not to be interested too much in supporting folks that are just coming out.

I'm not saying you should be the poster child for coming out as Queer or Femme or whatever... but in this thinking, it's like not caring about how you got to where you are today. They helped you figure yourself out by the introduction to Herstory, yet you have no interest in keeping that movement and vision alive by continuing to support it?

I'm incredibly perplexed by this...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks for the open door, Lady Snow. And yes what you say does make sense and I get the connection but I just happen not to be interested too much in supporting folks that are just coming out. We can discuss later if you'd like. I realize it's not a popular opinion here.
Not sure where to start to introduce my femmeness to the rest of you on this thread. Let's see. Out as a femme for about 3 decades (although I didn't have the language for it back then) starting in a small town in GA where there were lots of butches (on a military base) and not so many visible femmes. Moved to DC--NO FEMMES TO BE FOUND, and not so many butches either. Been in NYC for about 20 years and landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity.
My first BF sexual experience was with a butch who notched her belt on newly minted femmes, straight women exploring sexuality to be more to the point. At the time that worked for me too as I was interested in another butch but had no sexual experience and didn't want to try it out first with someone that I was way more than a little bit hot for. And, I had one relationship that ended when the butch figured hy was more attracted to elusive and challenging straight women than to femmes. Devestated at the time but in retrospect a great learning for me.
I look very straight on first glance, but as you wrote in an earlier post here, it doesn't take 5 minutes in a conversation to figure out that I'm femme. In some sense the fact that in my earlier life I 'could pass' helped me to come out. I was tired of the heteronormative assumptions by everyone, including a very dyke older boss at the time. I have a son who I raised alone (he's 33 now) and in addition to my appearance that sealed the straight assumption since it was long before butches and femmes had babies of their own accord.
I work in a field dominated by straight men and I know that I've fully swallowed my femme self because none of them try to hit on me anymore!
Enough rambling for now, but happy to say more as we get to know each other here.



Awesome that you know all those people!! Thanks for sharing, we have to agree to disagree, but I am all about supporting the people who are just out, you see I have a daughter who is out and supporting her is my responsibility as a Mom and as a Queer..

[Pretty Woman]

I'll rephrase to say that I was always way out before I moved to NYC and should have more aptly described the experience with the femmes and butches there as my first community experience with butch and femme. Sometimes I don't write very clearly. Sorry.

I am having a very hard time with what you are saying here... in one sentence you say...



And you also say...



I'm not saying you should be the poster child for coming out as Queer or Femme or whatever... but in this thinking, it's like not caring about how you got to where you are today. They helped you figure yourself out by the introduction to herstory, yet you have no interest in keeping that movement and vision alive by continuing to support it?

I'm incredibly perplexed by this...

[PinkieLee]

I know that for ME, getting to know the vast array of femmes that I have, has helped me evolve (and continue to evolve) into the femme that I am... one that is finally comfortable in my own skin. When I came out at 23, my social circle was very limited to my local gay community... where the butch-femme community was not present at all. It wasn't until I was in my late 20s and started meeting folks from all over (thanks to the wonderful internet), that I actually started embracing & claiming being femme... instead of just being "the girlie girl".

Luckily over the last 15 years, I've met some amazing femmes, that showed me that we come in all shapes and sizes, that we are more than what we look like, more than who we fuck & how we fuck, and we write our own story. If it weren't for those people, embracing the "newly femme", I wouldn't be who I am today.

So THANK YOU for leading by example, for showing the rest of the world that femme is whatever, whoever and however we claim it to be for ourselves!

[ravfem]

Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is.

i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally.

There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me!

i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides.

Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free". :hippie:

[Apocalipstic]

I think it is very important to be there as a source of help for people just coming out. I wish I had had someone I looked up to in the community back in the early 80's to help me along.

One of the main reasons I participate on this website is to help provide a place for Femmes and Butches who have no actual community in their areas to have resources to find friends and ask questions.

Outside of really large cities many of us never saw or knew another Femmes till we found community on the Internet. Yes, I have wonderful Femme friends in real time now, and I am so thankful for them and for those who try to reach out to the newly out and the youth among us.

Thank you Medusa for this thread and for this website! You actually were one of the Femmes I met at my very first Butch-Femme function and I will never forget that.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is.

i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally.

There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me!

i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides.

Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free". :hippie:

(((((((((((rav)))))))))) hell girl I get where you are coming from, cause if I am home, I have no make up on, pajama pants, a-line t-shirt hair all nappy and pulled back.. I will go out like this too if I need to run and errand, flips flops and bad toe nails and all!!

Them are just props honey, make up, glitter, hair iron, blah! Femme is who we are inside, and our gender nothing to do with the smoke and mirrors!

Though I will tell you, with 5 kids if I had to drive a mini van ever, I would of screamed bloody murder, they weren't macho enough for me! ha!:rolleyes:

[Apocalipstic]

Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is.

i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally.

There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me!

i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides.

Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free". :hippie:

Remember that many of those photos are taken at events where everyone is more dressed up than usual! :)

I remember someone saw an old avatar of me in a feather boa. It was taken when I had on a ton of makeup, false eyelashes and was dressed up for a Slut Night. She expected that I always dressed like that...she actually acted dissapointed when she met me and I did not have on make up and had on yoga pants and a t shirt. :)

The High/Low Femme freaks me out. I think it puts pressure on us to dress or act a certain way, when we should just be ourselves.

[SassyLeo]

I'll rephrase to say that I was always way out before I moved to NYC and should have more aptly described the experience with the femmes and butches there as my first community experience with butch and femme. Sometimes I don't write very clearly. Sorry.

Ok thanks.

Maybe I just have a different perspective since, again, I grew up in Queer households... where the role models were not a plenty.

...I still don't "get" how you can be gateful and thankful to those who helped you come out -whether it was as a lesbian/queer/femme- (and specifically citing Lesbian Herstory Archives), yet not have any interest in supporting those who are just coming out.

It's kind of like denouncing your heritage, in my opinion.

[Apocalipstic]

(((((((((((rav)))))))))) hell girl I get where you are coming from, cause if I am home, I have no make up on, pajama pants, a-line t-shirt hair all nappy and pulled back.. I will go out like this too if I need to run and errand, flips flops and bad toe nails and all!!

Them are just props honey, make up, glitter, hair iron, blah! Femme is who we are inside, and our gender nothing to do with the smoke and mirrors!

Though I will tell you, with 5 kids if I had to drive a mini van ever, I would of screamed bloody murder, they weren't macho enough for me! ha!:rolleyes:


OK, though I did unfortunately have a mini can briefly. Cough.

I also can most usually be found in PJ pants and a line shirt with hair pulled back unless I am at work.

[SuperFemme]

Minivans are for people that see aliens on the freeway.

[Nat]

very interesting post Nat! Do you mind explaining how you defer to men and maleness?

I kind of have the opposite thing going on, if a man or someone I perceive as male says something about how I should act I laugh, if a woman does I take it to heart way too much.

I wonder if maybe it's how we grew up? our childhoods? Maybe because my Mom died when I was so young, I yearn for female approval and am more freaked out when I don't get it?

Thanks :)

The best approximation is that I give masculine and male voices more weight in my own mind than feminine and female voices - including my own. This is not intentional or even conscious. But in reaction to feedback from masculine or male voices, I have a sort of comply or defy reaction. Much of the time my reaction is defiance, as I do not want to comply or feel oppressed.

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.

I would guess my upbringing and a good 32 years of life have gotten me here. I am not sure if laughing at what a guy says is not an act of defiance, but I can imagine losing your mother young and having been out longer may neutralize some of the stuff in the water.

Or it's also possible it's just a me thing.

[PinkieLee]

I find it refreshing that as time goes by, more femmes are becoming vocal about how they embrace femme. By speaking out, we can start breaking down those "stepford wives" sterotypes that so many people have stuck in their head of what femmes should be.

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks :)

The best approximation is that I give masculine and male voices more weight in my own mind than feminine and female voices - including my own. This is not intentional or even conscious. But in reaction to feedback from masculine or male voices, I have a sort of comply or defy reaction. Much of the time my reaction is defiance, as I do not want to comply or feel oppressed.

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.

I would guess my upbringing and a good 32 years of life have gotten me here. I am not sure if laughing at what a guy says is not an act of defiance, but I can imagine losing your mother young and having been out longer may neutralize some of the stuff in the water.

Or it's also possible it's just a me thing.


No, that makes sense about me and men I think. Maybe I am defiant. I have not thought about it from that standpoint.

I actually am kind of defiant in general and hate being told what to do by anyone. Like I REALLY hate it. I am not sure I treat anyone with deference, unless they are really old. Respect yes, deference no.

At 32, I think I did though. 40 was a big watershed for me. :)

I have experienced Femmes absolutely refusing to call Cynthia "She: or even "Cynthia". Several have suggested she go by "Chris", because they had been "taught" that Butches should be referred to as Hy or He and by a male name. I am glad that you now see the difference in respecting their wishes as a person and giving them deference because they are Butch or Male.

Nat, I have always thought you were very respectful of people and way more open minded about gender fluidity than most. I can see you have given this a lot of though and am glad you have come to the conclusion that respect does not mean deference.

I hope that as you age the voice in your head that says a male voice is more powerful than a female voice fades, like it has for me. I think it will.

Very interesting discussion! :givingarose:

[PinkieLee]

Remember that many of those photos are taken at events where everyone is more dressed up than usual! :)

I remember someone saw an old avatar of me in a feather boa. It was taken when I had on a ton of makeup, false eyelashes and was dressed up for a Slut Night. She expected that I always dressed like that...she actually acted dissapointed when she met me and I did not have on make up and had on yoga pants and a t shirt. :)

The High/Low Femme freaks me out. I think it puts pressure on us to dress or act a certain way, when we should just be ourselves.

I can soooo relate to this, too!

When I walked into the lobby at the Dallas Bash (yep, my first official B-F function), I was wearing a tank top, shorts & flip flops and everyday makeup. I smiled and gave the nod to many people that I recognized (because I am a gallery whore). It wasn't until I went upstairs, changed clothes, and came down (in full hair extensions & makeup) that someone finally said, "hey, you're PinkieLee".

Yep, I know that is partly my fault, for only posting pictures of me looking a certain way. Over the years, I've started showing more of Tonya and less of PinkieLee. Some people like to see the many different femme faces that I wear... others only want to see the party girl side of me. See, yet again, another femme sterotype that I'm supposed to look like that 24/7.

I don't know a single femme that wears makeup every single day or shops at the grocery store in 4 inch heels.

[Apocalipstic]

I can soooo relate to this, too!

When I walked into the lobby at the Dallas Bash (yep, my first official B-F function), I was wearing a tank top, shorts & flip flops and everyday makeup. I smiled and gave the nod to many people that I recognized (because I am a gallery whore). It wasn't until I went upstairs, changed clothes, and came down (in full hair extensions & makeup) that someone finally said, "hey, you're PinkieLee".

Yep, I know that is partly my fault, for only posting pictures of me looking a certain way. Over the years, I've started showing more of Tonya and less of PinkieLee. Some people like to see the many different femme faces that I wear... others only want to see the party girl side of me. See, yet again, another femme sterotype that I'm supposed to look like that 24/7.

I don't know a single femme that wears makeup every single day or shops at the grocery store in 4 inch heels.




Grin! Me either. Not a single one. :)

It is fun to play dress up sometimes and yes I look better in makeup than without...which is probably why I tend to post party pictures. That and I don't like having my picture taken, so all I have are partyish photos.

PS and the boa leaves feathers all over the place.

[Tucker]

I grew up in a world that tried to force me to look and act a certain way. I was raised to be the "pretty little thing in her pink little dress".
Although, I did end up embracing that role, it has always been horrifying to me that when I meet straight men or other lesbians, I hear " if you wanted to date something that looked like a man, why don't you just date men?"
No one has the right to judge how I choose to fuck, or who I choose to fuck!
And, just because I am femme, in NO way means that I should be with someone that I don't want to be with!

I have been very hesitant to comment because I am not looking to upset anyone or cause anything. I am purely just speaking for myself here. This is how I feel.

[Apocalipstic]

I grew up in a world that tried to force me to look and act a certain way. I was raised to be the "pretty little thing in her pink little dress".
Although, I did end up embracing that role, it has always been horrifying to me that when I meet straight men or other lesbians, I hear " if you wanted to date something that looked like a man, why don't you just date men?"
No one has the right to judge how I choose to fuck, or who I choose to fuck!
And, just because I am femme, in NO way means that I should be with someone that I don't want to be with!

I have been very hesitant to comment because I am not looking to upset anyone or cause anything. I am purely just speaking for myself here. This is how I feel.


I have heard the same words and was raised similarly.

I hate it when someone suggests that they have a better idea of whom I should date than I do!

Grrrrr.

People need to mind their own bees wax!

[Jess]

I have been realizing today exactly how much I still defer internally to both masculinity and maleness. I then feel oppressed and resentful of both. I feel like if a guy or butch says something about how she/he/hy/etc would like for femmes or women to behave differently, I feel oppressed and resentful due specifically to the fact that I weigh their criticisms so heavily. And then, "quit criticizing femmes, quit oppressing femmes, you don't have the right to oppress us," is the loudest and clearest voice in my mind.

Because of this cacophony between my ears, I cannot tell how much of this is just inside me and how much is coming from without. It feels like it's from without, but the human brain is weird like that sometimes.

The issue is still with myself. If I could somehow treat all genders and levels of masculinity or femininity with equal respect rather than feeling compelled to defer and then resenting the power I myself have handed to both masculinity and maleness, then I would have so much more clarity and peace within myself as a femme, as a woman, as a member of this community and as a member of the human race.

It would feel so lovely if one day there were no part inside me that felt the compulsion to crawl just because some masculine or male person voiced a complaint or expectation. Then the choice would move more easily beyond compliance or defiance and into the realm of real respect and self-respect, real ability to hear and a real ability to respond to criticism, observations, complaints and requests from across the gender spectrum in a more reasoned and clear way.

The thing is - I do not know how to unlearn this. I dont know how to remove that compliance/defiance button inside myself. Does anybody else experience this? Has anybody else successfully purged this or unlearned it or patched in some neutralizing attitudes or in any other way moved beyond this? If so, how?

Hopefully not invading on femme space, but this was a beautiful post. Thank you.

[Martina]

i am kind of talked out on this subject. i have said it all before. i have enjoyed some of the posts a lot. i don't buy into the continuum idea. i am femme. End of that conversation.

Most of the talk about femme doesn't resonate for me. i don't think of it so much in terms of my femininity or even my relationship to butches.

i came out as femme about the same time i came out as kinky. And one of the things i had to defend was loving to get fucked and loving to get fucked by big mean butches. These days, that's everyday gender performance. A femme talking about loving to go down on her butch partner is more likely to evoke surprise. But back in the day, it was shocking.

i am femme because it's part of my history. i don't express it in everything that i do and in every way that i fuck. i don't exude femme. i don't represent femme. i don't define it or let it define me. i don't classify everything that i do in terms of gender expression. If i spread my legs wide, i may not be enacting my inner boy or expressing my inner whore. i may just be getting comfortable. If my bedroom is decorated with pink and yellow scarves and floral prints this year while last year it was all chrome and black and white photos, it may not mean anything more than i wanted some color.

i don't play with gender for pleasure although i have in the past. i am old and settled and comfortable. i like gender in me and in others. Absence of gender markers is not hot to me. But gender is not my major (or even minor) route of self-discovery.

In most ways, my gender expression has turned out to look a lot like my straight vanilla mother's did. So it clearly hasn't been that closely tied to my queerness or my kink.

[blush]

Thanks :)

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.



For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.

[Nat]

As for passing as straight....

I have always, just once, wanted to get the nod from another queer person. You know, like Butches and women who "look" more stereotypically gay do.

Maybe at the reunion, we can give each other the nod?

I would love this too.

[Nat]

For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.

I guess what I'm having trouble with is the reality testing. This has been my perception too, but I am wondering now if I'm projecting or imagining this because of something going on inside myself rather than in the community.

I don't have a good method for quantifying what the reality is. If I had enough time or enough help to go back through a day's worth of everybody's posts or even just the threads that are specifically about gender recognition and respect and pull out every statement about those who "get it wrong" and see how many of them are femmes and if there is an objective way to measure the difference in tone between the statements about femmes and the statements about others who "get it wrong."

And then to go back through - and I really don't know how this would even be done - and find every single time a person has "gotten it wrong" to calculate who is getting it wrong and in which direction - well I'm sure it would be fascinating research but very difficult and time-consuming.

So, what I'm left with is a feeling. A feeling I don't know what to do with. I don't know if it's valid. I don't know how much of it is internal and how much external. I don't know how to gauge that either.

[The_Lady_Snow]

For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.


I don't think asking anyone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing, it's just polite and showing someone consideration, if they are asking and clearly stating this is their preference why wouldn't I respect that or why wouldn't anyone? We (Femmes) want respect, want our gender to be heard, seen and respected, the same goes for everyone else.

Not policing you here, just sharing and talking this out. Thanks for listening

[Nat]

Do we, as Femmes, have a continuum in our own community where the hyper-feminine is more valid/valued? What does that look like to you when it's in action?

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?

I don't feel pushed to be hyper-feminine these days, but I do wish I could find more ways to play with femininity in an obviously queer way. I wish there were a recognizable something we femmes could do that could make us more recognizably "family." Like Apocalypstic, I want the queer nod of acknowledgment sometimes. When I talk to women who set off my 'dar at work, I want them to get that I'm a femme. I'm the only out lesbian in a huge cubicle-land office with hundreds of women in it (and only a handfull of men), but even as an out lesbian, I can't get myself out of the damn closet.

Maybe we need to enact some sort of femme hanky code.

There was also some discussion around pronoun usage and several folks brought up what it might look/feel like to a Femme if she were "he'd" on a regular basis out in the world but also (and especially) in this community.
Thoughts on this?


I think this is an inducement to intentionally gender-bait and it's no prettier than when it's done to anybody else. Femmes may not be "he'd" on a regular basis, but our gender is entirely ignored, misinterpreted and misunderstood most of the time by most people we run across, even when we explain it over and over again.

My latest frustration is that I made the mistake of complimenting a straight cisgendered man on his charisma and speaking skills after he spoke in front of the class (and did so brilliantly), and he interpreted that as an open invitation to my pants. Not only am I invisible as a queer person, but the consequence of that is having to fend off unwanted advances from cisgendered straight guys. Then again, being interpreted as a lesbian is no guarantee of sexual harrassment avoidance.

[blush]

I don't think asking anyone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing, it's just polite and showing someone consideration, if they are asking and clearly stating this is their preference why wouldn't I respect that or why wouldn't anyone? We (Femmes) want respect, want our gender to be heard, seen and respected, the same goes for everyone else.

Not policing you here, just sharing and talking this out. Thanks for listening
I agree, Lady Snow. It certainly isn't a form of policing. No one should have to ask. I must not be being clear because that's not what I'm talking about.

Indulge me again...
When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns.

I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I agree, Lady Snow. It certainly isn't a form of policing. No one should have to ask. I must not be being clear because that's not what I'm talking about.

Indulge me again...
When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns.

I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.

```This is coming from my POV and only mine and it does not mean I think ALL femme's do this.~~~

I see it all the time femme's defaulting to the he pronoun automatically, and when the butch or person corrects them, they have been know to be dismissive, and insulting and even go as far as ASK why they aren't so. That's what *I* I am talking about when I am speaking of that particular matter.

Thanks for listening:)

[christie]

I agree, Lady Snow. It certainly isn't a form of policing. No one should have to ask. I must not be being clear because that's not what I'm talking about.

Indulge me again...
When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns.

I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.

To expand on what I think you are saying here....

Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better"

[The_Lady_Snow]

To expand on what I think you are saying here....

Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better"


No that is not what is being said at all from what I gather from *any* of the femme's who have voiced their opinions on this and experiences.

Thank you

[SuperFemme]

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

[blush]

```This is coming from my POV and only mine and it does not mean I think ALL femme's do this.~~~

I see it all the time femme's defaulting to the he pronoun automatically, and when the butch or person corrects them, they have been know to be dismissive, and insulting and even go as far as ASK why they aren't so. That's what *I* I am talking about when I am speaking of that particular matter.

Thanks for listening:)

I ask this honestly, not snotty, cause you could prolly whip me around quite a bit...:cheesy:

Is it only femmes? Or do "we" (the collective we) just notice it more and remember it more?

I've seen it from both sides of the fence.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I ask this honestly, not snotty, cause you could prolly whip me around quite a bit...:cheesy:

Is it only femmes? Or do "we" (the collective we) just notice it more and remember it more?

I've seen it from both sides of the fence.

Woof right??

*I* was coming from my POV and what I have seen more of.

Make sense?

[blush]

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

I've seen that.

I've also seen butches use female pronouns/emasculating phrases when referring to their ex's male-identified partner.

[christie]

No that is not what is being said at all from what I gather from *any* of the femme's who have voiced their opinions on this and experiences.

Thank you

This felt incredibly dismissive and silencing.

I merely posted what *my* opinion was on the post I quoted.

If your experience/opinion is different, I am sure it could have been stated without the implied tone.

[SuperFemme]

I've seen that.

I've also seen butches use female pronouns/emasculating phrases when referring to their ex's male-identified partner.

Right? I've seen that too.

[blush]

To expand on what I think you are saying here....

Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better"

It can seem that way. Butches and transmen do not get the same amount of backlash that femmes do for misconstruing (intentionally or not) pronouns.

[SuperFemme]

So. Moving away from the he/hy she/shy proper pronoun debate...

Do any Femmes here use a pronoun other than she/shy? I'm combing my dendrites to think if I have run into this and cannot come up with anyone.

Remember though, I have a memory like the girl in 50 First Dates. So just cuz I can't think of any doesn't mean they aren't out there.

[Nat]

So. Moving away from the he/hy she/shy proper pronoun debate...

Do any Femmes here use a pronoun other than she/shy? I'm combing my dendrites to think if I have run into this and cannot come up with anyone.

Remember though, I have a memory like the girl in 50 First Dates. So just cuz I can't think of any doesn't mean they aren't out there.

I wouldn't mind "zie" if it ever took off enough for me to get used to it. I wouldn't mind "he" if it wasn't said with malicious intent.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I know someone that uses

hir

Dunno if that is the same as what you are asking though:|

[SuperFemme]

I wonder what are the ways that Femme's feel umm...femmasculated?
Like how does it look when someone takes a swipe at your femininity?
Because I don't think it looks the same as emasculating.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I wonder what are the ways that Femme's feel umm...femmasculated?
Like how does it look when someone takes a swipe at your femininity?
Because I don't think it looks the same as emasculating.

I am sure the hell not gonna go first on this one:bicycle:

[SuperFemme]

I will go first.
How about being told that you are "butch".
I have heard this in a jovial/joking manner in reference to my..uh...type A personality. As if being forceful, determined, or smart is somehow a butch trait.

I don't take it as a compliment. Same with somebody throwing around the word: Toppy or Topping when I am forceful, determined or smart.

I hope that this makes sense and doesn't feel like I am saying that *butch* is an insult in general. I'm not.

[betenoire]

I wonder what are the ways that Femme's feel umm...femmasculated?
Like how does it look when someone takes a swipe at your femininity?
Because I don't think it looks the same as emasculating.

Maybe it doesn't look the same as emasculating, but it's just as hurtful.

I will gleefully scratch at the eyes of anybody who questions the femininity or femmeness of myself or my pretty lady friends. Particularly since that questioning is always (fucking always!) in response to us showing our strength, our brains, out independence.

Fuck That.

[SuperFemme]

Maybe it doesn't look the same as emasculating, but it's just as hurtful.

I will gleefully scratch at the eyes of anybody who questions the femininity or femmeness of myself or my pretty lady friends. Particularly since that questioning is always (fucking always!) in response to us showing our strength, our brains, out independence.

Fuck That.

Right? You make me love you. I'll send you cash for that pizza m'kay?

[SassyLeo]

I use She/Her

Because of my strong willed/assertive/bossy way, I have been teased at various points.... mostly by a friend or in the community as a joke kind of thing among Femmes. No worries there.

I know a few lesbian identified friend couples who are not "into" the Butch Femme community... once in a while one will say something about the other sort of off the cuff, like - "oh my girlfriend totally butched it up last weekend and fixed water heater" or "my partner totally dragged it up for an interview...she wore a woman's pantsuit"

If this is out how they talk about themselves in the privacy of their own relationship, that's fine. If they do it because they don't necessarily know any better, ok I'll give them that.

But if someone in the community (not a friend) called my bossiness butch-y or if I told a story about doing something that was "considered" masculine and they labeled it butch-y, I would be irked.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Maybe it doesn't look the same as emasculating, but it's just as hurtful.

I will gleefully scratch at the eyes of anybody who questions the femininity or femmeness of myself or my pretty lady friends. Particularly since that questioning is always (fucking always!) in response to us showing our strength, our brains, out independence.

Fuck That.

She said it best

FUCK THAT...

Another thing I have heard..

All you need is a nice butch so you can settle down...

Um no I don't and I sure the fuck ain't gonna settle....

[betenoire]

Yeah, settling is something that debris does.

[SuperFemme]

How about the look of amazement when you put together an Ikea cabinet or use a power tool on something? Like it's a big huge deal...OR a look of horror if you announce you do not like shopping. Or shoes.

[Tommi]

How about the look of amazement when you put together an Ikea cabinet or use a power tool on something? Like it's a big huge deal...OR a look of horror if you announce you do not like shopping. Or shoes.

Or when she lifts the suitcase out of the trunk wehn your back is turned, like it was heavy as a newspaper :heavyweight:

sneaking in under the cover of Pacific Daylight TIme ;)

[apretty]

i've experienced more attempts at perpetuating femme-hierarchy when getting to know less attractive and stupid butches.

my experience. me. only.

and to be totally fair--i'm SURE that their attractiveness fell from possibly average to *no way* once they began to offer their unsolicited and absurd insights on high-femme (which i don't think exists and they were sure entailed a demure smile, heels and stockings 24/7), relationships (i'm not a so-called 'natural' submissive because they were ill equipped for someone such as myself), and i could go on...

so, perhaps it's that i find intelligence *highly* sexy that i can't quite separate my disgust of the thoughts from the one doing the thinking--but i have found myself in these situations a few times and it's always presented to me in a way to try to knock me down to their size, like 'i'll fuck you but just so's you know...' trying so hard to mask their insecurity at sitting across from me:
oh, you're very attractive, if a little young... and perhaps not what i normally go for (as fucking IF) and i will do you, though you clearly lack real *experience* so you'd better hold on to your seat, little miss--and normally, i date high femmes--oh what are those? those are femmes who wear nylons and high heels, i have an ex who wore heels every day.... (wistful pause) and skirts--you know those tight skirts? ...yes, that's it--pencil skirt.... (implying that my totally cute outfit isn't drag-enough for the pizza place/diner/hole in the wall) wait. where are you going?"
see? not attractive + stupid = not getting any.

[apretty]

on the other hand--

i ADORE doing the 'femme' stuff with another femme--i don't feel competitive, i feel supported and love to give support.

i am grateful that i have a local friend who i met (through mack!), and we can discuss the real stuff as well as get absolutely stupid in 'bath and body' saying, 'oh HONEYYYY look at this new DOUCHE!!!' really loud. (really, poor tiger!)

and about the butch that creates this femme-continuum/perpetuates the myth of high vs. low femme (can i be teenage slut femme??) --i've never felt so ERASED. and not accidentally, not the way society sees everything in M or f... more so an attempt to deliberately erase my *femme* entirely.

[UofMfan]

i've experienced more attempts at perpetuating femme-hierarchy when getting to know less attractive and stupid butches.

my experience. me. only.

and to be totally fair--i'm SURE that their attractiveness fell from possibly average to *no way* once they began to offer their unsolicited and absurd insights on high-femme (which i don't think exists and they were sure entailed a demure smile, heels and stockings 24/7), relationships (i'm not a so-called 'natural' submissive because they were ill equipped for someone such as myself), and i could go on...

so, perhaps it's that i find intelligence *highly* sexy that i can't quite separate my disgust of the thoughts from the one doing the thinking--but i have found myself in these situations a few times and it's always presented to me in a way to try to knock me down to their size, like 'i'll fuck you but just so's you know...' trying so hard to mask their insecurity at sitting across from me:
oh, you're very attractive, if a little young... and perhaps not what i normally go for (as fucking IF) and i will do you, though you clearly lack real *experience* so you'd better hold on to your seat, little miss--and normally, i date high femmes--oh what are those? those are femmes who wear nylons and high heels, i have an ex who wore heels every day.... (wistful pause) and skirts--you know those tight skirts? ...yes, that's it--pencil skirt.... (implying that my totally cute outfit isn't drag-enough for the pizza place/diner/hole in the wall) wait. where are you going?"
see? not attractive + stupid = not getting any.

Do you have to embarrass me in public like this?

[apretty]

Do you have to embarrass me in public like this?

ha! i seriously doubt that's your *first date* style! nice try!!

[Emmy]

In my mind, when someone says 'high femme', for some reason, i think of a glamorous woman from an old movie, from the 40's maybe, wearing satin and complicated hosiery, making smart and quippy conversation. Maybe with finger waves in her hair? It's a nice image. :) Sorry, I know this is a bit of a random musing on the topic...

[Martina]

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

LOL. The "glitter and unicorns" got me. Yes, i have seen that. And worse.

[Spirit Dancer]

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

SF~
I've seen it way too many times, followed by nasty fights or break ups. Then saying it's true they are the same as me down there. It blows my mind and I lose it, my favorite i've heard a few times as of late is hy is a glitter cock. I despise that word, and it just skeeves me. If you view them as a female then why start anything when you know full well they are male id`ed and you won't respect them in their id.

[Martina]

SF~
I've seen it way too many times, followed by nasty fights or break ups. Then saying it's true they are the same as me down there. It blows my mind and I lose it, my favorite i've heard a few times as of late is hy is a glitter cock. I despise that word, and it just skeeves me. If you view them as a female then why start anything when you know full well they are male id`ed and you won't respect them in their id.

i am misunderstanding. What i have seen is that some femmes have dated a male-ID'd butch, wanting male-ID, not viewing them as female, and then when it was over, cause they were mad at the butches, used female pronouns to disrespect them.

Are you serious? People use glitter cock as a way of calling someone less than in some way? OMG. lol. Let me tell you, i have done some damage with those glitter cocks (hand held). ;)

[betenoire]

How come we can't have a discussion about Femmes without talking about Butches?

[Martina]

How come we can't have a discussion about Femmes without talking about Butches?

i had the same thought, but wtf? i also think part of the discussion was to what degree is this hierarchy, if there is one, reinforced by butches and how do we react to it when it is.

i personally have not gotten much of that from butches. And even not a huge amt from femmes. i don't think it's as big of a deal for us -- the hierarchy.

[SassyLeo]

i've experienced more attempts at perpetuating femme-hierarchy when getting to know less attractive and stupid butches.

my experience. me. only.

and to be totally fair--i'm SURE that their attractiveness fell from possibly average to *no way* once they began to offer their unsolicited and absurd insights on high-femme (which i don't think exists and they were sure entailed a demure smile, heels and stockings 24/7), relationships (i'm not a so-called 'natural' submissive because they were ill equipped for someone such as myself), and i could go on...

so, perhaps it's that i find intelligence *highly* sexy that i can't quite separate my disgust of the thoughts from the one doing the thinking--but i have found myself in these situations a few times and it's always presented to me in a way to try to knock me down to their size, like 'i'll fuck you but just so's you know...' trying so hard to mask their insecurity at sitting across from me:
oh, you're very attractive, if a little young... and perhaps not what i normally go for (as fucking IF) and i will do you, though you clearly lack real *experience* so you'd better hold on to your seat, little miss--and normally, i date high femmes--oh what are those? those are femmes who wear nylons and high heels, i have an ex who wore heels every day.... (wistful pause) and skirts--you know those tight skirts? ...yes, that's it--pencil skirt.... (implying that my totally cute outfit isn't drag-enough for the pizza place/diner/hole in the wall) wait. where are you going?"
see? not attractive + stupid = not getting any.

What do you mean you don't do "heels and stockings 24/7"???

http://leighsinger.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/femme_fatale.jpg

[Random]

I wonder what are the ways that Femme's feel umm...femmasculated?
Like how does it look when someone takes a swipe at your femininity?
Because I don't think it looks the same as emasculating.

I think my personal favorite one is..

A particular hand movement I used while fucking someone was *Butch*

*Blink*

gee I didn't know that being concerned about possibly riping someone while getting my hand into them was based on gender id..

silly femme, serious fucking is for butches.. (sarcasm intended)

[betenoire]

silly femme, serious fucking is for butches.. (sarcasm intended)

Duh. Femmes are supposed to fuck as though they are dialing the phone with wet fingernails.

[AtLast]

ARGH! As I'm reading the thread I am thinking some butches are like this? I think I am really happy with my old nerd, not wrapped-up in butch posturing self! Some of this is just insane and I can't imagine thinking like this!

I'm also understanding more and more why I feel really interrogated sometimes on the first few dates. Makes sense. Total sense!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I love to participate in cunnulingus, I do, I have heard from my peers this makes me not so femme..

I say the hell with that..:)

oh and yes I said cunnulingus and no I have no gender preference when it comes down to it..

:bandana:<cleaning gear on in case

[Apocalipstic]

When I think of High Femme, it involves Mary Jane and Cookies. :)

I don't even know ANY women who wear nylons and pencil skirts 24/7. Zero.
It cracks me up when someone says they are looking for a Femme like that, cause that search is going to lead to dissapointing results!

[ravfem]

When I think of High Femme, it involves Mary Jane and Cookies. :)

I don't even know ANY women who wear nylons and pencil skirts 24/7. Zero.
It cracks me up when someone says they are looking for a Femme like that, cause that search is going to lead to dissapointing results!

Wait...i wear mary janes and like cookies....omg, i'm a high femme?! Who knew?? :blink:

:jester: :nerd:

[Martina]

I love to participate in cunnulingus, I do, I have heard from my peers this makes me not so femme..

I say the hell with that..:)

oh and yes I said cunnulingus and no I have no gender preference when it comes down to it..

:bandana:<cleaning gear on in case

Thinking of those femmes missing out. Unless this is a true sexual boundary (one just can't imagine doing it), it's amazing to me that anyone would give up all this good stuff up for no better reason than it's not femme????

How sadly self-punishing of someone not to try out something to see if they really like it, but to obey some internalized sexist rule. Boy, that's a case where our gender categories sure aren't liberating. What's next, femme purdah?

[SuperFemme]

I love to participate in cunnulingus, I do, I have heard from my peers this makes me not so femme..

I say the hell with that..:)

oh and yes I said cunnulingus and no I have no gender preference when it comes down to it..

:bandana:<cleaning gear on in case

Me too!

I think it hurts me the most when the shock & awe comes from other Femmes. I tend to keep quiet during gatherings when the convo turns to sexual stuff. Which is kind of sad.

[Apocalipstic]

Me too!

I think it hurts me the most when the shock & awe comes from other Femmes. I tend to keep quiet during gatherings when the convo turns to sexual stuff. Which is kind of sad.


Me too and Mee too.

Exept sometimes I just like to spurt out exactly what all I like to do in bed and watch the green foam ooze from their ears. :sadangel:

[SuperFemme]

Me too and Mee too.

Exept sometimes I just like to spurt out exactly what all I like to do in bed and watch the green foam ooze from their ears. :sadangel:

This made me crack up. Green foam even. teehee

[The_Lady_Snow]

Martina I want to address what you said I just need time to chew on it for a bit.. The reason being is there are folks out there who do not participate in this particular sexual activity due to boundaries their partners have set and such.



On another note..

Being a femme who enjoys having her cock sucked, has brought the *value* of my femme into questions by both gender spectrums....

:wtf:

[Emmy]

This is a great discussion. I'm relatively newly out- about 3 years- so perhaps my perspective just stems from inexperience. I can honestly say, though, that I've never personally been made to feel inferior, or "not femme enough" by another femme, not once. The femmes I've met have been unfailingly gracious, welcoming me to the club :)

Online, I suppose I have seen a fair amount 'ewwww'-ing going on about any sort of sexual interest, on the part of either butches or femmes, that doesn't quite adhere to gender stereotypes. Perhaps, though, this is improving over time? I'm not certain of it, but I get the sense that maybe this was a bit more common a few years ago than it is today, thank goodness- probably thanks to folks' speaking up about it in threads like this.

[Beau]

I'm here to show support for all femmes of all flavors.

Yeah, cunnilingus got my attention.

But then, so does cock sucking.

Equal opportunity orgasms for all are wonderful. Stating that any sexual act is the province of gender is just "fucking" ridiculous.

;)

[TenderKnight]

Hello!

Great thread (and yes, I actually did thread stalk someone here.. and found myself actually LEARNING something!). I just want to put in my experience, not as a femme, but as a transguy who knows and has loved many femmes, both as friends and as lovers..

I will admit that I still have a pretty binary brain when it comes to femmes and butches.. And I am going to use the term "butches" here, just because I don't want to have to type: butches/Stones/TG identified/transgender/transsexual people every other line.. That being said :)

When I first learned the term "butch" and "femme", I was 18 and I was in a chat room.. There were stereotypes all around and I was learned by other butches on how to treat a femme.. I was shown how a femme *should* behave and act and dress.. I ate it up and ran with it.. 14 years later, I am unlearning a good bit.. lol Not all of it, for sure, I mean, your partner should be shown respect, always.. But do I have to open the door everytime? No, not if it means it turns into a lil awkward moment when both of you are reaching for the door like it's a race.. lol This has happened..

I can't relate to femme invisablity, but I can relate to being a transguy and feeling like I am not accepted in the queer realm.. I actually have to out myself at times, which is interesting, to say the least.. I can also relate to being one of those butches that assumed that certain things are true about a woman because she is femme.. Guilty.

I was in a situation not too long ago where a femme mentioned using a strap on.. Not on me, per se, but just in general, and allll kinds of crap came up for me. Since that time, I have had a lot of time to think about this reaction.. Would it be diffrent if it were just a one night hook-up? Would it change if I were in a relationship with this woman? Why?

I don't have the answers for that, but I am going to try in the future to keep that experience and some of the things said in this thread in mind.. Thank you to those that have posted, I have enjoyed reading and will continue to quietly stalk this thread.. Thank you :)

-Tony

[blush]

One of the most offensive things for me(and it sounds like many other femmes in here too) is the long definitions of "what a femme is." Usually it's followed by the assessment of me as a femme.

[AtLast]

I'm here to show support for all femmes of all flavors.

Yeah, cunnilingus got my attention.

But then, so does cock sucking.

Equal opportunity orgasms for all are wonderful. Stating that any sexual act is the province of gender is just "fucking" ridiculous.

;)

Count me in on that support! How the hell did stuff like any sexual act is the province of gender get started, anyway!!! FeFruckSake... pun, intended!

OK, I'll shut-up and listen!
:popcorn:

[Nat]

Me too and Mee too.

Exept sometimes I just like to spurt out exactly what all I like to do in bed and watch the green foam ooze from their ears. :sadangel:

I don't know anyone in person who has the green foam reaction :)

I do remember my talking to a close straight woman friend about my first experience strapping.

I was like, "OMG I cannot believe I didn't do that sooner, and I was so stressed about it, and then it was so natural and I had access to this part of myself I never knew existed and to a part of her that was so unbelievable and I just felt so *given to* in that moment."

My friend just said she never imagined that the f*cker would feel *given to* and that surprised her. She said as a f*ckee-only, she feels like she's stealing all the energy. :)

I don't really hang out with prudes though - maybe green foam is a biproduct of prudery? I talked to a femme friend just the other day about it, and even though her preferences don't run the same gamut mine do, she was charming and funny and insightful and fully accepting when the conversation turned for a few moments to sex.

[ravfem]

I love to participate in cunnulingus, I do, I have heard from my peers this makes me not so femme..

I say the hell with that..:)

oh and yes I said cunnulingus and no I have no gender preference when it comes down to it..

:bandana:<cleaning gear on in case

i have to admit i buy into some "femme roles" as well as some "butch roles",
but oral sex has never been one of them! i mean, hello!!

What's gender/personal identity got to do with enjoying any form of sex?

i will admit that i personally have little experience with cunnulingus, mainly because the majority of my partners have been stone. But....i'm um....beginning to expand my horizons with Daddy, and omg the thought just sends me!! :drool: and i cannot believe i am admitting this for the world to see! i'm a prude, really. :bolt:

[Apocalipstic]

I don't know anyone in person who has the green foam reaction :)

I do remember my talking to a close straight woman friend about my first experience strapping.

I was like, "OMG I cannot believe I didn't do that sooner, and I was so stressed about it, and then it was so natural and I had access to this part of myself I never knew existed and to a part of her that was so unbelievable and I just felt so *given to* in that moment."

My friend just said she never imagined that the f*cker would feel *given to* and that surprised her. She said as a f*ckee-only, she feels like she's stealing all the energy. :)

I don't really hang out with prudes though - maybe green foam is a biproduct of prudery? I talked to a femme friend just the other day about it, and even though her preferences don't run the same gamut mine do, she was charming and funny and insightful and fully accepting when the conversation turned for a few moments to sex.


:)
For the record, I usually don't choose to hang out with prudes either, but when forced to...why not shock them?

None of my staright friends are prudes just people we sometimes meeet in the Queer community. And the people to whom I was refering would not see themselves as prudes, just very set in their gender stereotype ideas.

I feel somehow it is my duty to bust up some Femme stereotypes. :thumbsup:

[Nat]

:)
For the record, I usually don't choose to hang out with prudes either, but when forced to...why not shock them?

None of my staright friends are prudes just people we sometimes meeet in the Queer community. And the people to whom I was refering would not see themselves as prudes, just very set in their gender stereotype ideas.

I feel somehow it is my duty to bust up some Femme stereotypes. :thumbsup:

you do an excellent job of representing. :)

I realized I have rather prudish feelings when I encounter Christian fundamentalism. I had a lady tell me the other day that she feels sorry for anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus because god is going to torture us for 7 years before we burn in hell. And then last night in class some guy told me he was going to pray for me because I am not a Christian and I just got up and moved. So I guess I'm easily shocked in that way and kind of a prude in a way.

[Apocalipstic]

you do an excellent job of representing. :)

I realized I have rather prudish feelings when I encounter Christian fundamentalism. I had a lady tell me the other day that she feels sorry for anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus because god is going to torture us for 7 years before we burn in hell. And then last night in class some guy told me he was going to pray for me because I am not a Christian and I just got up and moved. So I guess I'm kindof a prude in a way.

Ummm, I don't think you are a prude, I think they are crazy. and, if we are dead and don't have a body how are we going to feel the torture and flames?

ehhhhhh.

Another thread?

[Nat]

yes - sorry my ADHD got the better of me. /derail

I saw the most beautiful femme today at the gas station. She was dressed up and well coifed and she actually was wearing a great pair of heels. She looked a little like duchess and when I saw her behind me in line, I thought, damn I wish I looked that good in the morning. She was radiating this sort of peace and power. I didn't know she was a femme until her gf came around the corner and it became obvious from their conversation.

Not only do I wish I were less invisible to queers, I wish other femmes were more visible to me. I need the femme-dar app installed in my brain.

I wanna say there's a gaydar app on the iPhone but I think I read somebody has already been gaybashed through it.

[SassyLeo]

This is a great discussion. I'm relatively newly out- about 3 years- so perhaps my perspective just stems from inexperience. I can honestly say, though, that I've never personally been made to feel inferior, or "not femme enough" by another femme, not once. The femmes I've met have been unfailingly gracious, welcoming me to the club :)

Online, I suppose I have seen a fair amount 'ewwww'-ing going on about any sort of sexual interest, on the part of either butches or femmes, that doesn't quite adhere to gender stereotypes. Perhaps, though, this is improving over time? I'm not certain of it, but I get the sense that maybe this was a bit more common a few years ago than it is today, thank goodness- probably thanks to folks' speaking up about it in threads like this.

Interestingly enough, I have had little, if any, feedback from femmes that I am not "femme enough" or made to feel inferior in terms of my IDing as Femme...but I also appear very feminine and I have heard from friends who are not as femme appearing that they have had some crappy experiences.

I have felt competition from other femmes, in terms of attention from butches...and we all know how small the community is...I've seen some serious cat fights. Luckily I avoid that crap as much as possible.

I'd like to think I have really good boundaries and I try not to let the "femme enough" crap affect me, even if from afar.

[Linus]

Interestingly enough, I have had little, if any, feedback from femmes that I am not "femme enough" or made to feel inferior in terms of my IDing as Femme...but I also appear very feminine and I have heard from friends who are not as femme appearing that they have had some crappy experiences.

I have felt competition from other femmes, in terms of attention from butches...and we all know how small the community is...I've seen some serious cat fights. Luckily I avoid that crap as much as possible.

I'd like to think I have really good boundaries and I try not to let the "femme enough" crap affect me, even if from afar.

If I may ask, do you think that the association of "femme" is done purely based on looks, very similar to butches based on how "macho" they are?



Side comment: Maybe the idea that one shouldn't be judging a book by its cover has been pretty much tossed out by the community in a general sense?

[SassyLeo]

If I may ask, do you think that the association of "femme" is done purely based on looks, very similar to butches based on how "macho" they are?



Side comment: Maybe the idea that one shouldn't be judging a book by its cover has been pretty much tossed out by the community in a general sense?

Yes, absolutely. I know a few femmes who are not as "feminine" as I am or others, as in the stereotypical make-up, heels, dresses, etc. So, they have heard the "not femme enough" many times.

And yes. Femme is a personal ID. Every Femme has their own personal definition. It sucks that we as a community label each other based in appearances. Considering we face so much of it in the world, you'd think we'd learn from that ;)

[JustJo]

Hi everyone :rrose:

I've been reading this thread since it started and was all ready to post...and then Linus tossed this one in there...

But do they see them as femmes or feminine lesbians??

Now, I know this was about mainstream media and all of that public perception stuff, but it also got me thinking...and I've been chewing on it ever since. I'm one of those who took a very long time to figure myself out...for a variety of reasons I won't even begin to go into here. What I do know is that when I finally discovered the butch-femme community it clicked and felt right to me in a way that neither the straight community or the andro-lesbian community did.

I know I'm femme. It's when I start trying to explain and define it that I get into rough ground...and Linus' post is a part of that.

I'm naturally pretty feminine, and am comfortable with that. I wear skirts and dresses, like my nails manicured and prefer kitten heels to pretty much anything else. I like to cook, love to bake, am squeamish, giggle...pretty cliched stuff. However, I'm also stubborn, headstrong, extremely independent and capable. I have an advanced degree, a professional job, and run my own life. I don't need anyone to take care of me...never have since the age of about 14. Anyone who tries to tell me how to think will get an earful...and then some.

So am I "feminine" in the traditional sense? In some ways, yes. In others, not even close. Maybe what I am is not so much feminine as feminist...defining my own femaleness on my own terms.

So then the lesbian part of Linus' question...am I? Well, yea...based on the fact that I'm in a relationship with and love a woman...yes. However, the woman I love is butch... and I'm not attracted at all to feminine or androgynous women. So...what does this all mean?

Am I femme because I'm attracted to butches? That can't be it...I see plenty of femmes who are attracted to other femmes. And if I'm not in a relationship with a butch it isn't like my identity vanishes either. I can be a celibate femme, a femme who loves other femmes, a femme who loves butches....all of those are still femme...even if they aren't my style of being femme.

All of these are spinning around in my head right now....feminine, feminist, femme...and I don't know where the lines are for me. In many ways, I wear the label "femme" as a way to help others know me, at least a little, before they know me for real...as my own unique self. I'm left feeling that my screen name describes it better than my femme label....because when it all boils down to what's really true and important...I'm just Jo.

[blush]

Yes, absolutely. I know a few femmes who are not as "feminine" as I am or others, as in the stereotypical make-up, heels, dresses, etc. So, they have heard the "not femme enough" many times.

And yes. Femme is a personal ID. Every Femme has their own personal definition. It sucks that we as a community label each other based in appearances. Considering we face so much of it in the world, you'd think we'd learn from that ;)
Do you think that the labeling is more pronounced in the online community? I say this because usually if you put a gaggle of femmes together, our femme-ness becomes blinding. You can see it from space. Dress, makeup etc...doesn't seem to matter.

[SassyLeo]

Do you think that the labeling is more pronounced in the online community? I say this because usually if you put a gaggle of femmes together, our femme-ness becomes blinding. You can see it from space. Dress, makeup etc...doesn't seem to matter.

Hmmm... that is interesting to think about...

So tell me if I am understanding: Do you mean specifically that labeling online, like here, without the added piece of physical community is more pronounced?

As in if none of us every physically met, we are more apt to label because we haven't seen each other in person to see that all Femmes are not all dresses and heels?

Did any of that make sense? I am having a hard time articulating....

[blush]

Hmmm... that is interesting to think about...

So tell me if I am understanding: Do you mean specifically that labeling online, like here, without the added piece of physical community is more pronounced?

As in if none of us every physically met, we are more apt to label because we haven't seen each other in person to see that all Femmes are not all dresses and heels?

Did any of that make sense? I am having a hard time articulating....
Yeah! That's exactly it.

[SassyLeo]

Yeah! That's exactly it.

I think if someone had no physical examples of Femme and just read online, looked at photos online and did not participate in THIS kind of dicussion, yes. I think feminine & Femme have been synonymously perpetuated for years.

The thing is, when you get a bunch of Femmes in a room, I think that stereotype rings true. I mean, if you lined up 20 Femmes, I would venture to guess that at least 50 to 60% are more feminine than not. So... there is still the condundrum.

[JustJo]

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?

Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community?

I hope you will forgive my snips Medusa :rrose:

I came back to add to this thread because the whole concept of femme invisibility has been in my head lately in a very personal way, relating mostly to how incredibly freaking long it took for me to figure out who I am, and why I walked around feeling emotionally unplugged for a good chunk of my life.

When I first discovered the whole butch-femme dynamic, I felt like I had simply come home. All of a sudden, the emotional side of me that had been disconnected so long got plugged back in.

The next thing that happened was that I started blaming and berating myself for being so incredibly stupid for so long. I am 48 years old, have been married to bio-men 3 times, and didn't figure this out until my early 40s. I don't hate men, although I confess I don't trust them much for reasons relating to my own life experiences...so why would I have had so many het relationships? Why would I have married 3 times, trying to find the one man who could make me feel what others were apparently feeling in their relationships? Why did I feel like my personal theme song for so many years was "Is that all there is?" I just didn't really FEEL anything... and was going through the motions in hope that something would somehow magically connect. It didn't...hence the 3 divorces too.

So then...this conversation about femme invisibility...conversations and posts on this site and (previously) the dash site...and memories started to come up for me.

I am not attracted to feminine women...I may like, love or admire them, but I'm not attracted. I am attracted to butch women. I always have been.

However, I am also a child of the 70s and 80s...and every lesbian I met in that time...through my teens, in college....all of them were very much andro. I tended to be attracted to those on the most butch end of that spectrum...and I was completely invisible to them. I have stopped beating myself up for that, at last, as I remember more and more the dynamics of that period of my life.

I went to gay student union meetings in college in the late 70s and early 80s...mostly gay men, but even the few lesbians that were there looked at me like I was in the wrong room. I am inherently fairly shy...and probably left skid marks leaving the room.

I remember going up to San Francisco frequently for the weekend in the early 80s...going to Amelia's when it was still newly open...seeing so many lesbian women and having this chant in my head "why don't they see me? why won't they talk to me?" Again...shy...and left.

Meanwhile...men in my universe wanted my time, attention, sex, whatever...and socialized the way I was (narcissistic family, long story)...I capitulated to that. As if, somehow, those outside myself...the lesbians who didn't see me, and the men who pursued me...knew better than I did who I was.

In hindsight....I wish I had been braver. I wish I had spoken up. I wish I had questioned and learned more to find out where all of these wonderful butches were hanging out. I wish I had found a magnificent femme mentor to take me by the hand and say "this is how we do it baby." I wish I had gotten a pink tank top and bedazzled "Top this!" on the front....something.... :giggle:

But the truth is....we don't know what we don't know. I didn't know butch-femme existed. I didn't have any model for who I am. I just knew that I didn't fit the mold even if it looked like I did on the outside.

So...long way to say it...but yes, I wish I had been seen as femme by the outside world. I wish I had been seen as femme by myself. It's important...
And yes, I do feel seen as femme by this community. And, most importantly, by Scoote...who I love dearly :stillheart:

And that's why I'm no longer singing this...

Fpn_xu81ySo

[Medusa]

Jo, thanks for telling your story! :)

There are quite a few Femmes (and Butches and Transmen) on these boards who came out later in life and/or who have been married once or several times. There are a lot of Femmes (and Butches and Transmen) who have slept with men and have children. None of this negates who you are now or who you were then :)

I had many of the same kinds of feelings when I first discovered the Butch/Femme dynamic. Kinda like a "Wow, I cant believe I missed this.." or "Wow, why didnt I look for this sooner.." What you say about only knowing what we know rings so true.
If we dont have access to other Femmes, its HARD to recognize that within ourselves sometimes, much less NAME it for what it is.
Think of the images and stories that are most readily available in the media about Lesbians. How many Femmes can we all point out? How many Femmes could we have pointed out in the 70s and 80s?
My personal view? People have BEEN Femme for a long, long time but the recognition and ownership of Femme is fairly new in the dyke world.

I would venture that most of us need some kind of touchstone to spark that recognition within ourselves. Something that tells us that we aren't just a "freak" or "a straight girl who has a kink for Butch women" or insert any other number of identifiers.

Im glad we have this space and each other to do that. Each of our ways of being Femme are correct and valid, and I love hearing about how other people have found their Femme and how they "do" it, even when it is very different than mine or anything I have ever seen.

[DamselFly]

as to the continuum, i've been all over the place as to outer appearances:in the beginning wearing "the uniform" back in the 70s, if y'all remember that: looking as girly as could be, and frequently mistaken for a straight woman (which i HATE), and now somewhere in the middle, i guess, wearing short hair b/c of being a Roshi and jeans around the farm, but dresses or feminine pants and shirts, polished nails, lipstick, etc when i go to town. if i go in my "farmhand attire", i run the risk of being mistaken for a kid, even by other kids, lol.
i do think that femmes get judged both ways by the way they dress, and that there IS a hierarchy from "High femme" being the Queen Bee, so to speak, and "low femme" being seen as an androgyne in hiding, though if you're "High femme", you sometimes get castigated for being "too straight" and "low femme", you're not seen at all.
i really dislike this hierarchy, though i've seen less expectation of it here than on some other sites and some other real time places. to me a femme is a femme, and how she chooses to express herself is her (and if she wishes, her partner's) business. i am no less a femme b/c i am not constantly in dresses w/high heels, my make-up always so, etc. my current lifestyle does not permit that, even if i still wanted it. as i've grown older, i've become more myself and less what i thought the world, even the B/f world, wanted. i am a Roshi, so my hair is very short. because of my modesty code, i wear longer usually free-flowing skirts or dresses, when i'm not in "farmhand attire". because i walk with a cane, heels are no longer an option. i realize that this puts me "out of the radar" of some butches, but then, i wouldn't be accepted as me, even if somehow noticed. i want S/someone who wants me for me! i'm very up-front about who i am! (as if Y/you hadn't noticed that by now, lol.)
my 2 cents.
DamselFly

[PumaJ]

I'm High Femme and very, very girlie in many ways, though I'm not a "princess". I know how to use power tools, for example, and have used them when necessary. I'm definitely a feminist & am not into any of the "I can't do such & such because I'm the Femme, or 'you' have to do such & such because you are the Butch/Stud/Boi". Blech on that, though, in the bedroom 'roles' do get a bit more defined;-)

I suppose that in some ways the fact that I am a lesbian has been invisible to some people. The fact that my being a High Femme lesbian has never been invisible to Butches/Studs/Bois is all that matters to me. In regard to other styles of lesbians, they either get it, or not. I really don't care.

I did find the early years of Second Wave feminism to be difficult for me. Even though I did my best to wear the 'uniform" I could never quite give up the mascara and lip stick. That was an issue for some. A few years ago, I used to attend a monthly Sunday brunch for Jewish lesbians in my neck of the woods. I was always the most glam lesbian in the group. At first some of the other women looked a bit askance at me, but over time they got over it. I figured I presented an opportunity for them to put their money where their mouths were, so to speak, in regard to their professed feminism, i.e. they really did get it about one being a woman identified woman, or they didn't. In other words, those that had some issues with my way of being got to learn that High Femme has absolutely zero to do with the dominant culture's rules regarding the feminine and females. Fortunately for the group only a few of the members had to stretch & grow in that area. Everyone else was very chill.

[sweet_goldie_grrl]

And don't even get me started on the idea that Femmes are somehow "damaged" straight women.
Or straight women who are too fat or ugly to "get a real man".


I feel a tangent comin' on.



WOAH!! I never heard that one before! That's appalling that someone would actually think that.

[*Anya*]

I hope you will forgive my snips Medusa :rrose:

I came back to add to this thread because the whole concept of femme invisibility has been in my head lately in a very personal way, relating mostly to how incredibly freaking long it took for me to figure out who I am, and why I walked around feeling emotionally unplugged for a good chunk of my life.

When I first discovered the whole butch-femme dynamic, I felt like I had simply come home. All of a sudden, the emotional side of me that had been disconnected so long got plugged back in.

The next thing that happened was that I started blaming and berating myself for being so incredibly stupid for so long. I am 48 years old, have been married to bio-men 3 times, and didn't figure this out until my early 40s. I don't hate men, although I confess I don't trust them much for reasons relating to my own life experiences...so why would I have had so many het relationships? Why would I have married 3 times, trying to find the one man who could make me feel what others were apparently feeling in their relationships? Why did I feel like my personal theme song for so many years was "Is that all there is?" I just didn't really FEEL anything... and was going through the motions in hope that something would somehow magically connect. It didn't...hence the 3 divorces too.

So then...this conversation about femme invisibility...conversations and posts on this site and (previously) the dash site...and memories started to come up for me.

I am not attracted to feminine women...I may like, love or admire them, but I'm not attracted. I am attracted to butch women. I always have been.

However, I am also a child of the 70s and 80s...and every lesbian I met in that time...through my teens, in college....all of them were very much andro. I tended to be attracted to those on the most butch end of that spectrum...and I was completely invisible to them. I have stopped beating myself up for that, at last, as I remember more and more the dynamics of that period of my life.

I went to gay student union meetings in college in the late 70s and early 80s...mostly gay men, but even the few lesbians that were there looked at me like I was in the wrong room. I am inherently fairly shy...and probably left skid marks leaving the room.

I remember going up to San Francisco frequently for the weekend in the early 80s...going to Amelia's when it was still newly open...seeing so many lesbian women and having this chant in my head "why don't they see me? why won't they talk to me?" Again...shy...and left.

Meanwhile...men in my universe wanted my time, attention, sex, whatever...and socialized the way I was (narcissistic family, long story)...I capitulated to that. As if, somehow, those outside myself...the lesbians who didn't see me, and the men who pursued me...knew better than I did who I was.

In hindsight....I wish I had been braver. I wish I had spoken up. I wish I had questioned and learned more to find out where all of these wonderful butches were hanging out. I wish I had found a magnificent femme mentor to take me by the hand and say "this is how we do it baby." I wish I had gotten a pink tank top and bedazzled "Top this!" on the front....something.... :giggle:

But the truth is....we don't know what we don't know. I didn't know butch-femme existed. I didn't have any model for who I am. I just knew that I didn't fit the mold even if it looked like I did on the outside.

So...long way to say it...but yes, I wish I had been seen as femme by the outside world. I wish I had been seen as femme by myself. It's important...
And yes, I do feel seen as femme by this community. And, most importantly, by Scoote...who I love dearly :stillheart:

And that's why I'm no longer singing this...

Fpn_xu81ySo
We all have been shaped by our life experiences to get to the place where we are now in life. I wished I had known who & what I am much younger but it did not play out that way. My childhood shaped me & was not a positive one. I got married @ 18 to a bio man, had two daughters by the time I was 20. I was divorced by the time I was 25. My bi phase lasted a couple of years-even though in all that time I had only one orgasm with a man-trust issues. Another process to acknowledge to myself I was lesbian. Never thought about whether or not I was femme-it is just me. The invisibility of it in the world is difficult. Everyone knew who & what I was with my ex-she had the issues related to being called sir all the time but she dug it. She identified as stone butch for years (until she let me fuck her) then she was simply butch & I loved her masculine energy & presence & she
loved that I was femme. I did not realize honestly that there are levels of being femme until I found the planet. Bottom line-don't we just want to be accepted as the person we are? On the Planet I will try my best to accept everyone for who & what they are-period. I have never found such a large group of intelligent, thoughtful & articulate people; regardless of their identity. Sorry if I side-tracked
off the original question/responses.

[ScandalAndy]

WOAH!! I never heard that one before! That's appalling that someone would actually think that.

I've been on the receiving end of that particular bit of poison more than once. I have to admit I haven't heard it as much now that I"m in my thirties, but it was common between 18 and 23 for me. I grew up in a very small town and was the only openly gay person up until about 4 years ago. Most people didn't understand and figured that the only way I would prefer women (especially butch women) over the local football hero was if there was something wrong with me. You'd be surprised what people can come up with to explain what is wrong with you.

[blush]

i do think that femmes get judged both ways by the way they dress, and that there IS a hierarchy from "High femme" being the Queen Bee, so to speak, and "low femme" being seen as an androgyne in hiding, though if you're "High femme", you sometimes get castigated for being "too straight" and "low femme", you're not seen at all.

DamselFly


Is there a hierarchy? I purposefully don't use a modifier before the word "femme" because usually high or low or whatever was ascribed TO ME by well-meaning friends or partners. It perpetuates the idea that being femme is all about our appearence.

[julieisafemme]

I hope you will forgive my snips Medusa :rrose:

I came back to add to this thread because the whole concept of femme invisibility has been in my head lately in a very personal way, relating mostly to how incredibly freaking long it took for me to figure out who I am, and why I walked around feeling emotionally unplugged for a good chunk of my life.

When I first discovered the whole butch-femme dynamic, I felt like I had simply come home. All of a sudden, the emotional side of me that had been disconnected so long got plugged back in.

The next thing that happened was that I started blaming and berating myself for being so incredibly stupid for so long. I am 48 years old, have been married to bio-men 3 times, and didn't figure this out until my early 40s. I don't hate men, although I confess I don't trust them much for reasons relating to my own life experiences...so why would I have had so many het relationships? Why would I have married 3 times, trying to find the one man who could make me feel what others were apparently feeling in their relationships? Why did I feel like my personal theme song for so many years was "Is that all there is?" I just didn't really FEEL anything... and was going through the motions in hope that something would somehow magically connect. It didn't...hence the 3 divorces too.

So then...this conversation about femme invisibility...conversations and posts on this site and (previously) the dash site...and memories started to come up for me.

I am not attracted to feminine women...I may like, love or admire them, but I'm not attracted. I am attracted to butch women. I always have been.

However, I am also a child of the 70s and 80s...and every lesbian I met in that time...through my teens, in college....all of them were very much andro. I tended to be attracted to those on the most butch end of that spectrum...and I was completely invisible to them. I have stopped beating myself up for that, at last, as I remember more and more the dynamics of that period of my life.

I went to gay student union meetings in college in the late 70s and early 80s...mostly gay men, but even the few lesbians that were there looked at me like I was in the wrong room. I am inherently fairly shy...and probably left skid marks leaving the room.

I remember going up to San Francisco frequently for the weekend in the early 80s...going to Amelia's when it was still newly open...seeing so many lesbian women and having this chant in my head "why don't they see me? why won't they talk to me?" Again...shy...and left.

Meanwhile...men in my universe wanted my time, attention, sex, whatever...and socialized the way I was (narcissistic family, long story)...I capitulated to that. As if, somehow, those outside myself...the lesbians who didn't see me, and the men who pursued me...knew better than I did who I was.

In hindsight....I wish I had been braver. I wish I had spoken up. I wish I had questioned and learned more to find out where all of these wonderful butches were hanging out. I wish I had found a magnificent femme mentor to take me by the hand and say "this is how we do it baby." I wish I had gotten a pink tank top and bedazzled "Top this!" on the front....something.... :giggle:

But the truth is....we don't know what we don't know. I didn't know butch-femme existed. I didn't have any model for who I am. I just knew that I didn't fit the mold even if it looked like I did on the outside.

So...long way to say it...but yes, I wish I had been seen as femme by the outside world. I wish I had been seen as femme by myself. It's important...
And yes, I do feel seen as femme by this community. And, most importantly, by Scoote...who I love dearly :stillheart:

And that's why I'm no longer singing this...

Fpn_xu81ySo

Jo I cannot even begin to tell you how much I appreciate you sharing this. It is my experience too. I remember so many times wishing that the lesbian world would come to me and take me away. I know that many lesbians I encountered thought of me as the worst of the bi-curious straight girls. I was so desperately trying to have someone see me and they never did.

I had never heard the word femme until I read Judith Butler. A light bulb went off in my head!! So THAT is what I am!!! It was and still is a revelation to me.

[tantalizingfemme]

You'd be surprised what people can come up with to explain what is wrong with you.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I was told I was ""man hurt". :blink:

[TickledPink]

Not sure if this is the proper place for this, but.....The term "high femme" or "very high femme" irk me.

Not sure why.

[Chancie]

Not sure if this is the proper place for this, but.....The term "high femme" or "very high femme" irk me.

Not sure why.

Yes! And, 'pure femme' or '100% femme'.

[PumaJ]

I think I may be simplifying here when I say that we live in a very heterosexist culture. We have media/cultural driven gender roles & behaviors in which masculine women & effeminate men are seen as being lesbian or gay, & feminine women & masculine men are seen as being straight. I think that all of us grow up internalizing that message, to one degree or another. Thus, we see it expressed in our Queer communities when we are not recognized as Queer, ourselves.

As Queer Femmes, we are very diverse in our expression of Femme. I don't believe that there is a right way, or wrong way to go about being Femme. There is only the owning and expressing the vastness of our feminine energy in all of its fabulously powerful and gorgeous forms, as we define it, not as dominant or even Queer culture defines it.

Doesn't matter if we are tops, bottoms, or in between, or whether we sexually engage with other Femmes, masculine of center women, those who are FTM, or any other Queer gender. Femme as gender transcends one's biological sex. That is, regardless of being born into a female or a male body, one can be Femme.

Until the past few months, I've been out of the lesbian/queer public community loop for some time, so if there is some silliness going on regarding a Femme hierarchy, I am blissfully unaware of it. I am High Femme & feminist. I don't see being High Femme as superior to any other type of Femme, it is just one of many forms of Femme expression, IMO. Plus, if the queer haters come knocking, they aren't going to give one rip about the different types of Femme. In their small minds, they just see Queer, period. We need to be each others' allies.

I really enjoyed the article, Trouble in a Tutu (http://www.thescavenger.net/isgd/trouble-in-a-tutu-who-else-but-femme-750.html), today.

[imperfect_cupcake]

y'know, reading this thread has been a reminder about things.

I've had the massive privilidge of living in two very different kinds of community (many subtle different kinds but two majour ones). I recall the most extreme of one being in Toronto where the nick name of it being "bois town" didn't quite sink in till I attended a 300+ queer night at Buddies. "WOW! OMG! wall to wall butchez!! I am. so. lucky. Look at them all! gosh.... just so.... many... and.... ahhhhhh. um. there's ah. five femmes? ??? oh. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. oh CRAP >:( " and I did find out that unless you were an aogressive/assertive hard working/networking full-on femme top, as a femme you didn't have a chance. One friend actually cut all her hair off, dressed in dungarees and pretended to be a "faye" boi bottom - and got a lot of action. Till she fell in love and very slowly came out to her Daddy. very slowly explaining that just because she was femme, did not mean she was shallow, demanding, materialistic, high matinance emotionally, wanting to be served and pandered to while being submissive etc.

it confused me to tears because here were all these very strong, independant, mouthy femmes that organised so many community events and worked with the bisexual women's community to make sure it was integrated, many worked very hard with the gay men's leather community to get integrated sunday brunches going etc. Yet the common perception of a femme was "I don't want to pander to a spoilt demanding child." Which threw me. It you look at the programme of Mad Men and look at Don Draper's wife, Peggy, how immature, dependant, demanding and looks orientated and confused she is, that's the view of femmes in a relationship I was under the impression the larger masculine ID'd community of lesbians thought of us. It seemed that although the masculine ID'd were pretty swinging (in that they enjoyed submissive bois and very toppy femmes who didn't seem allowed to have needs) the stereotype was still pervasive in people's heads about femme femininity.

This probably has changed somewhat as it's been 10 years since I've lived there and I know the feminist porn awards are there now etc.

When I moved to london, gosh I can't tell you how different it became. It was like a veil lifted off me that wieghed two sacks of wet cement. I was seen. And yes, many times people thought I was straight or bisexual, but here's the key, they didn't give a sh*t and still tried to chat me up in the bar or give me an appreciative once over on the tube. I'd like to state this is a London phenomena, I know it changes when you leave London. There are also so many lesbian clubs, bars, nights and venues I can't possibly know them all.

And because of this and because of a very organsied and outgoing Individual who moved to london from her country, club wotever was started. and from that little wee club of generqueer that turned into club nights, weekly bar nights, movie nights and a sex club - club fuk (which just closed) and then started Bird Club because she felt there needed to be a feminine (she doesn't ID as femme, she ID's as Bird, which is the working class name for girl and she's very political in that way) gender queer club (temporarily closed due to lack of venue but she's still looking).

But the difference in visual acceptance I got between vancouver, seattle, calgary, toronto, portland...vs London is unfathomable if you haven't experienced that kind of visual immediate acceptance. I'm not talking about the lesbian nod, which I still don't get - though in oxford I've had it twice when I've been out with my wife. And everytime it happens I'm always gobsmacked and pleased down to my teeniest toe. But the casualness of acceptance in queer space. the tone is very different. there's an ease that I know I can just be. I don't have to be ever so slightly tense all night cause I'm going to get "those looks" or get challenged at the door or if not verbally by the scowl as I walk in. or some drunk will come up and say something stupid about straight girls in pubs.

Or worse, that feeling you have the words "serial killer" painted on your forehead if you go to a pub on your own and no one will talk to you, even though you've tried a couple times to start polite convo with people beside you. but they will stare.

that doesn't happen in London, not in my experience. The cloak of invisibility isn't nearly as smothering. I get some of the same stereotype assumptions of what I'm like as a person: high strung, demanding, constant need for attention etc but that's really just from mouthy young baby dykes at clubs who are pretty high matinance and attention seeking themselves but fail to claim these charming traights because they happen to see themselves as masculine. They figure it out later that it's a personality traight, not a gender trait. and frankly I don't have to be around them till they figure it out cause there's enough people who know I'm an individual with individual personality traits and I do not have a borg personality just because I'm wearing heels.

[imperfect_cupcake]

And because of this and because of a very organsied and outgoing Individual who moved to london from her country, club wotever was started. and from that little wee club of generqueer that turned into club nights, weekly bar nights, movie nights and a sex club - club fuk (which just closed) and then started Bird Club because she felt there needed to be a feminine (she doesn't ID as femme, she ID's as Bird, which is the working class name for girl and she's very political in that way) gender queer club (temporarily closed due to lack of venue but she's still looking).

Apologies, I wrote too quickly and I realise there was some info missing. Ingo started wotever world with a lot of big help from the community and volunteers and Bird la Bird started Bird Club - if anyone wants any help or advice in starting gender queer clubs in their area, they are both on facebook. Wotever World (Ingo) and Bird la Bird (Kath) are their pages.

[Quintease]

I have to say that I've never felt invisible in London most of the time anyway.

[dykeumentary]

Apologies, I wrote too quickly and I realise there was some info missing. Ingo started wotever world with a lot of big help from the community and volunteers and Bird la Bird started Bird Club - if anyone wants any help or advice in starting gender queer clubs in their area, they are both on facebook. Wotever World (Ingo) and Bird la Bird (Kath) are their pages.

Just would like to say that I've party-ed with Ingo and Ingo rocks. Go to anything Ingo produces !
Also would like to say that butches adore Femmes! So do "Femme" your own way and we will love You for You.
XO

[Medusa]

So, I'm completely out at work. Have been since day 1. ( I find it much easier to just bust it on out rather than let them find out later because I have a big mouth and don't do well keeping my business to myself).

Many folks at work have either met Jack or at least seen photos of her (on my desk). Today, someone who I have only worked with over the phone came to my office and seemed surprised that Jack is a big honkin' Butch.

Her words were: "It's not that you're a Lesbian, it's that I expected your girlfriend to look...you know...like YOU." (she meant feminine and in make-up etc.)

Anyone else had this happen where folks assume your partner must also be Femme just because you are?

[gaea]

So, I'm completely out at work. Have been since day 1. ( I find it much easier to just bust it on out rather than let them find out later because I have a big mouth and don't do well keeping my business to myself).

Many folks at work have either met Jack or at least seen photos of her (on my desk). Today, someone who I have only worked with over the phone came to my office and seemed surprised that Jack is a big honkin' Butch.

Her words were: "It's not that you're a Lesbian, it's that I expected your girlfriend to look...you know...like YOU." (she meant feminine and in make-up etc.)

Anyone else had this happen where folks assume your partner must also be Femme just because you are?

yes....the worst part is when they say why not just be with a bio male....ive tried explaining this over and over some get it some dont...

Im sorry you had this experience i hope you co worker wakes up and smells the coffee

[CherylNYC]

yes....the worst part is when they say why not just be with a bio male....ive tried explaining this over and over some get it some dont...


Whenever some ass says, "If that's who you're attracted to, why not just be with a man?", I take a deep breath, look at them pointedly, and say, "Because I'm a lesbian". I make sure to say it in my sternest voice as I stare them down. GRRRRR.

If I'm feeling particularly generous I'll add that masculinity is not the sole provenance of males any more than femininity is strictly the provenance of females.

[ScandalAndy]

Last night as I walked out to the parking lot there were two gorgeous butches chatting next to the security gate. As I walked by I smiled and made eye contact, and they quickly looked away. What the heck do I have to do, wear a rainbow t-shirt every day to get my point across? One of them I've seen a few times around the site but never get to talk to. *sigh* I'm sick to death of being categorized as one of the straight women who work here.

[kannon]

I've been on the receiving end of that particular bit of poison more than once. I have to admit I haven't heard it as much now that I"m in my thirties, but it was common between 18 and 23 for me. I grew up in a very small town and was the only openly gay person up until about 4 years ago. Most people didn't understand and figured that the only way I would prefer women (especially butch women) over the local football hero was if there was something wrong with me. You'd be surprised what people can come up with to explain what is wrong with you.

I went to therapy for gender dysphoria. The therapist's first suggestion for me was, "why don't I try to dress more feminine?" :) Then this woman who stated she was originally from the North and that made her more liberal and open-minded said ALL lesbians were sexually molested and that's why they are lesbians. I asked so that's your theory? She said no, it's a fact. The sad part is she a helping professional.

[princessbelle]

You know I really hate it, but it seems some straight people feel the b/f dynamic (broad) is so complicated.

For instance, when coming "out" to people here in my local town, including my mom, my boss, my friends, it is one thing to get them to wrap their head around the fact i'm gay. It is a whole other discussion trying to clarify i am attracted to the butch id'd people.

I've heard "you can't be gay your so girly" or "you have to be bisexual, you look like a girl" and on and on, as i'm sure you all know.

I used to believe it needed this deep explanation down to the core of how i id and education on how others id. I still have a hard time understanding why that is so hard to "get", but it truly seems to be.

There are very few femmes where i live, and most parties i've attended or adult gay bars there seems to be 90-100% more butch ID'd people. I honestly thought something was wrong with me being gay and being feminine until i found these sites.

I remember once years ago i was at a gay party here in town, and i was the only femme there. I walked up to a group of people who were talking and immediately they stopped talking and just stared at me. I will never forget that. I felt so misplaced, so invalid, and so alone. I don't know if they thought i was straight, or they just thought i was weird because of how feminine i was. All i know is it hurt me. I remember going home that night and crying my eyes out because i just didn't feel like i fit in anywhere, not in the straight world and not in the gay world.

It is hard finally coming out and then to have to determine where you fit in the gay community is another mountain....or at least it was for me.

When i found the word femme and saw pictures online on the dash site of feminine women who embraced the way they looked and stood proud of the way they ID'd it was so liberating for me. I had found my place.

Over the last couple of years, not only do i feel like i fit in, but i've made some beautiful relationships with other femmes and have opened my heart to the differences even within the term "femme".

I no longer go to bed crying and feeling alone in this world. I may still be sort of alone in this city, but now i know who i am and that i DO fit in and i am not misplaced.

I am part of a wonderful, dynamic, strong, positive group of women, and that makes me proud.

[CherylNYC]

I went to therapy for gender dysphoria. The therapist's first suggestion for me was, "why don't I try to dress more feminine?" :) Then this woman who stated she was originally from the North and that made her more liberal and open-minded said ALL lesbians were sexually molested and that's why they are lesbians. I asked so that's your theory? She said no, it's a fact. The sad part is she a helping professional.

Whoa! Just, whoa. Have you thought of reporting this person to the Medical Board?

whoa.

Every time I read something like this it just gets my blood boiling. I'm glad you managed to sort it out without her, uhhh, help.

[ScandalAndy]

Whoa! Just, whoa. Have you thought of reporting this person to the Medical Board?

whoa.

Every time I read something like this it just gets my blood boiling. I'm glad you managed to sort it out without her, uhhh, help.

AGREED!!!!!!! This person should be reported! That's horrible!!!

[AtLast]

I went to therapy for gender dysphoria. The therapist's first suggestion for me was, "why don't I try to dress more feminine?" :) Then this woman who stated she was originally from the North and that made her more liberal and open-minded said ALL lesbians were sexually molested and that's why they are lesbians. I asked so that's your theory? She said no, it's a fact. The sad part is she a helping professional.

Reading this just makes me seethe! This so called "professional" probably has the same kinds of degrees and state approved licenses that I and many others that are in the field have.

I hate this! And I have to say that it isn't the first time I have read about or personally come across therapists like this. If this person really does hold a valid state license- REPORT (this is mal-practice/incompetence)!!! Sometimes therapists (depending on the state requirements and laws) can practice in a state without a professional license. Consequently, there is really no legal remedy for the harm that someone with this lack of knowledge and down right incompetence can do.

It is so important to check on the credentials of a therapist before seeing them. Also, go to your state's licensing board's website and see if non-licensed therapists are allowed to practice in your state in any form. In most states, even those with "in-active" status of their license cannot practice.

This is a very real problem and look at what can happen to people in our community when these idiots are out there practicing! You can also (in most states in the US), look up any prior infractions or mal-practice claims against a clinician. Plus, there is some good information on how to select a therapist written- and how to conduct pre-selection interview with a prospective therapist.

A fully licensed clinician has to have their state licensing registration number on all ads and business cards- you can look this number up on a state licensing board's website.

[kannon]

Reading this just makes me seethe! This so called "professional" probably has the same kinds of degrees and state approved licenses that I and many others that are in the field have.

I hate this! And I have to say that it isn't the first time I have read about or personally come across therapists like this. If this person really does hold a valid state license- REPORT (this is mal-practice/incompetence)!!! Sometimes therapists (depending on the state requirements and laws) can practice in a state without a professional license. Consequently, there is really no legal remedy for the harm that someone with this lack of knowledge and down right incompetence can do.

It is so important to check on the credentials of a therapist before seeing them. Also, go to your state's licensing board's website and see if non-licensed therapists are allowed to practice in your state in any form. In most states, even those with "in-active" status of their license cannot practice.

This is a very real problem and look at what can happen to people in our community when these idiots are out there practicing! You can also (in most states in the US), look up any prior infractions or mal-practice claims against a clinician. Plus, there is some good information on how to select a therapist written- and how to conduct pre-selection interview with a prospective therapist.

A fully licensed clinician has to have their state licensing registration number on all ads and business cards- you can look this number up on a state licensing board's website.

Unfortunately, I didn't report her. She claimed to be licensed and in good current standing with state licensing board.

Many of the LPCs are not required to take courses that address LGBT issues. However, they are supposed to be trained in ethics and diversity. So, I would hope to see a certain measure of understanding or recognition that people have their own unique personal experiences which shape who they are and how they perceive their world. She had none of that.

It is really scary thinking about some young, suicidal, easily influenced girl receiving counseling for her "homosexual" thoughts. This counselor may have her convinced that she was molested and only needs to resolve symptoms of PTSD to recover. It's a shame.

[ScandalAndy]

So how do you deal with the invisibility? Specifically, how do you combat it? it really brings me down when i'm assumed to be straight.

[blush]

So how do you deal with the invisibility? Specifically, how do you combat it? it really brings me down when i'm assumed to be straight.

It depends on the situation and my level of investment in the person. It gets to me too, but I do enjoy the deer- in- the -headlights look when they figure it out. I wouldn't say that I combat it, just change their perception.

[Star Anise]

I am not particularly visible in day to day situations, I don't mind it too much most of the time, because my sexuality doesn't define me 24.7.

However one thing that I do find exciting is when I am talking to a sexy butch and she recognises the subtle prolonged eye contact and begins to notice that I am flirting with her. :eyebat:

[Sweet Bliss]

Last night as I walked out to the parking lot there were two gorgeous butches chatting next to the security gate. As I walked by I smiled and made eye contact, and they quickly looked away. What the heck do I have to do, wear a rainbow t-shirt every day to get my point across? One of them I've seen a few times around the site but never get to talk to. *sigh* I'm sick to death of being categorized as one of the straight women who work here.

As I've gotten more "mature" (read as past 50) I have amazed myself at how much I've changed and stayed the same... Most folks see me as straight, and do a double take when they find out different. Which I find delightful, :jester: because it means at times I am completely invisible, (read ignored), which at times is extremely maddening. A friend commented to me once, "wow, men (bio) and women are both attracted to you? That must be wonderful!" And I'm thinking, not really, cause the Butch I want looks at me and treats me like his sister. So now when I see a Butch I'm interested in or other woman I'm attracted to for "whatever" (yes, i love all kinds of folks) if I were in your place approaching a "hottie" (whatever that means to you) I'd find a way to make sure that person "understands" that I'm liking what I'm seeing. So I get "ballsy" (so to speak) and make a comment, like for instance...

in the case of someone in uniform.... I might ask them to escort me to my car

or in the grocery store...... "excuse me, do you know anything about _____?"

or in other situations, a simple comment about their appearance usually breaks the ice.

Just a look from me does not do much, however if I wink, or do my "mmm, you look delicious" look + slow wicked smile, or after I pass by them, turn around for a second long look, I find it works more effectively then just eye contact. Trust me, honey, if you turn around for a better look, or stop and say something like, "Sugar, you MAKE that uniform...."... be sure and sashaye your hips, so when he/she watches you walk away, it's with interest....

Of course my favorite move is to cook something sweet for someone I have my eye on...... Like that hottie at Home Depot.... Lordie, I'm gonna faint if she ever ...... well, that's another thread....:goodluck:

Remember this mantra, "I am a sexy, delightful woman, (or what works for ya) and desirable, ....(you get the picture?)...." If you KNOW you are attracted to xyz, put that vibe out there, like "ya, I'm delicious!!"

Just my nickel today, do what you are comfortable with, put your personal spin on being your special self.

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

What a wonderful thread! You know, this is one of the reasons I signed on to this website!
I came out at a late age, at 49. Before that I was married twice. I always KNEW there was something about me, but for whatever reason, had to come out when I did.
I am tall, and I used to be a BBW. When I came across online boards for B/F topics, I knew I didn't FEEL like a butch, nor did I look anything like one. But then, with society's conditioning, I also didn't fir the mold or internal "picture" in my mind as to looking like a Femme. To *ME*, a femme was short, tiny, beautiful long nails and long hair, etc. At 5'11", I felt more like a bull in a china shop! I asked this friend once, she was this cute little boi, if I could be considered a femme. She just laughed and asked what ELSE I could think I was! DUH!
When I did come out, at 49 (looking totally white-bread Grandma look), I was desparate to "look the part". I cut my hair short, spiked it up, ANYTHING to "look" gay, or to be acknowledged as a lesbian.
I still get frustrated because I blend in and look "too straight", IE: I don't get acknowledged as gay. I say I don't set ANYONE'S gaydar off. Grrrr!

[The_Lady_Snow]

You know how straight girls different from us (Femmes)?

Soon as you have a conversation with us, our feminism, politics, acceptance of the diversity that surrounds us is spilled like paint on canvas through our words.

Straight gals not so much most of the time:)

[MsTinkerbelly]

You know how straight girls different from us (Femmes)?

Soon as you have a conversation with us, our feminism, politics, acceptance of the diversity that surrounds us is spilled like paint on canvas through our words.

Straight gals not so much most of the time:)

I could not have said it better myself Lady Snow! I am visable as a Femme only on two occasions...when I am with Kasey, and when I tell them like it is! LOL I have gotten much bolder in my old age, having been too shy for most of my life.

[Toughy]

I found this on Huff Po Lesbian section today. This seemed to be the best thread to put it in. It is about a year old.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/megan-evans/femme-lesbians_b_1237648.html?utm_hp_ref=lesbian

Femme Invisibility
Posted: 01/28/2012 12:17 pm

If asked to think of a lesbian, most people's thoughts drift to the stereotypical image of a butch lesbian. It may come as a surprise to some that this is not the only type of lesbian that exists, oh no -- there are some who are "femmes." <snip>

[stepfordfemme]

I found this on Huff Po Lesbian section today. This seemed to be the best thread to put it in. It is about a year old.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/megan-evans/femme-lesbians_b_1237648.html?utm_hp_ref=lesbian

Femme Invisibility
Posted: 01/28/2012 12:17 pm

If asked to think of a lesbian, most people's thoughts drift to the stereotypical image of a butch lesbian. It may come as a surprise to some that this is not the only type of lesbian that exists, oh no -- there are some who are "femmes." <snip>

Thanks for posting.

I enjoyed this article, except for one line.

The author used femme "AKA" sometimes known as lipstick lesbians. I struggle with this term too often being equivocated with femme. I understand why she wrote it and what she meant, it just was unnecessary IMHO.

Femmes preferences for mates should not be connected at all to the femme label/identification.

Anyone else have thoughts on it?

[Words]

Hated the article, not least of all because of the stereotyping inherent in the author's take on what constitutes femme.

For example...did she bother to ask the ten women whose photos were shown in the gallery if they consider themselves femme or did she simply assume that because they're pretty and wear dresses and make up that they couldn't possibly be anything but?

If anything, the article left me feeling even more invisible than I felt before.

Words

[stepfordfemme]

Hated the article, not least of all because of the stereotyping inherent in the author's take on what constitutes femme.

For example...did she bother to ask the ten women whose photos were shown in the gallery if they consider themselves femme or did she simply assume that because they're pretty and wear dresses and make up that they couldn't possibly be anything but?

If anything, the article left me feeling even more invisible than I felt before.

Words

Point well taken on the gallery (I hadn't even looked at the pictures)
Thank you for pointing that out.

Ironically in fact about half of them were tv characters that are played by straight (or not known to be out women). For example Santana from Glee, the girl from PLL, the two Grey's characters -Calizona :)

Blog style articles tend to be from an author's POV. And she also has started a submission project of pictures from self defined femmes on her blog.

Ladies, what experiences would you relay to the world if you were to write a Huff Post article on femme invisibility ?

[Ginger]

I guess I don't care if I'm invisible as a femme. I don't care what people I don't know, don't know about me.

And if people make assumptions about who I want to sleep with, I don't care about that, either. If they matter to me, I'll give them more information so they know me better. If they don't matter to me, I don't care if their assessment of me is inaccurate.

I can't relate to the pain of invisible femme-ness. And the way I feel about this, doesn't make me less of a femme, or a lesser femme. I'm just a femme who doesn't care if I'm the only one who knows it.

[starryeyes]

I could give 2 hoots if I am invisible in the straight world...though the reactions are interesting. It's in the gay world, I feel hurt. Our own community stereotypes us and can't recognize us. I hate being the "straight girl" with a butch partner, or an outsider of the community because "I'm not really gay". Bah!

But, when you do get recognized... It makes it so worth it! :)

[stepfordfemme]

I could give 2 hoots if I am invisible in the straight world...though the reactions are interesting. It's in the gay world, I feel hurt. Our own community stereotypes us and can't recognize us. I hate being the "straight girl" with a butch partner, or an outsider of the community because "I'm not really gay". Bah!

But, when you do get recognized... It makes it so worth it! :)

I really want to echo this. I felt it most when I was coming out and was trying to find my place in the community. I never felt like I belonged and I felt like I stuck out. Gay boys thought I was just an unsure hag. Lesbians didn't welcome me because they thought I was either a straight girl, bi or experimenting

The "you're not really gay" used to hurt the most.

Now I just respond with "No, I'm just queer and fabulous." and flash a smile.

I own my femme. Visible or invisible :)

[femmeInterrupted]

Some interesting thoughts on this whole "femme invisibility" topic.
I'll speak from my own individual place, as a femme, and also, as I relate to this subject as a feminist.

So first of all, I'm about as invisible as a full blown super nova. I take up space. I have opinions, presence, and don't move through any space, queer or not, like some invisible wraith in a push up bra and a pair of heels.

It sits somewhere unpleasantly on the shelf next to 'reverse racism' for me. Issues of passing locate themselves importantly in the axis of power and privilege, of oppression and violence. Just like there is no such thing as 'reverse racism' against a dominant white body, the idea of a 'passing' as straight through the world is privilege, that is being spun now as the 'oppression' of not being seen. It's not an accusation to be read as 'straight' by a heteronormative world. It's simply an anatomical fiat: I have a gender, that gender is femme. I express that gender in ways that FIT me. Those expressions give me an undeserved, unwarranted privilege in passing.


Femme Invisibility: not so much.


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maisqxXTaJ1qfmyu0o1_500.jpg


I prefer this:


http://media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com/550x/c6/3f/56/c63f56ea4c43c6446a9fb80a0a0cc8fe.jpg

[femmeInterrupted]

Just came across this image on Pinterest. Thought of this thread.

http://media-cache-ec7.pinterest.com/550x/3a/b5/31/3ab531ff237b85c33d0b9532492276bc.jpg

[femmeInterrupted]

...which thread to share this on, but this is AWESOME!

Femmes, Pulling the Pieces Together: A Keynote Address by Pratibha Parmar


http://thefeministwire.com/2013/02/femmes-pulling-the-pieces-together-a-keynote-address-by-pratibha-parmar/#.USpKSzm-l9Y.twitter

[stepfordfemme]

Just came across this image on Pinterest. Thought of this thread.

http://media-cache-ec7.pinterest.com/550x/3a/b5/31/3ab531ff237b85c33d0b9532492276bc.jpg

So I feel conflicted as a QWF that's being called out here.

I don't say "femme invisibility" in these threads to claim being wronged by society as a whole. It's a loss of community I have felt. It's a feeling and experience that is solely mine, that makes me feel less isolated when it's echoed back from a femme sister. It's an experience that not everyone shares for sure.

And as a QWF, I would never try to own someone else's experience as a person of color, a transgendered person, or anything else that isn't my experience to own.

I know that I have privilege and safety, there is an alternate thread in the Femme Zone called unpacking the purse--discussing femme privilege. I guess as this a venue for me to connect with my femme sisters in way that I normally don't get to do regularly. I think we should all have the chance to speak in our voices.

But sometimes I feel like when we don't share experiences with each other for the sake of saying "x, y or z has it so much worse" it shuts down a venue for people to discuss. I want everyone to share whatever experiences they've had in their lives. Because the only person that can speak your story is you.

This isn't meant as a retort, so much as its a desire to open up discussion.

[femmeInterrupted]

I guess as this a venue for me to connect with my femme sisters in way that I normally don't get to do regularly. I think we should all have the chance to speak in our voices.

This isn't meant as a retort, so much as its a desire to open up discussion.

I love that we have this venue/space to connect. You are so right in that many of us don't get to do so regularly.

As a QWF myself, that image, and the words spoke to me. I received them as an ally to my femme sisters who are WOC. I acknowledge the reality of how their experience(s) differ from my own.

I don't feel personally, that femme invisibility, is an issue for me OUTSIDE of our own communities. I also truly believe that there is no hierarchy of oppression, and that all of our experiences are real, valid and worthy of sharing. :)

[candy_coated_bitch]

Just came across this image on Pinterest. Thought of this thread.

http://media-cache-ec7.pinterest.com/550x/3a/b5/31/3ab531ff237b85c33d0b9532492276bc.jpg

I'm going to use this photo as a jumping off point, and my (possible) rant is NOT aimed at you, femmeInterrupted. Just to make that clear. Some of my ideas are probably going to be admittedly reactionary.

I've been out of the loop in the Butch/Femme online community for a long time now. I dropped out of the scene after some big online drama on some big other web site. I'm sure a lot of you know what I am talking about. In the spirit of full disclosure, I used to go by the name of musicfemme in old online circles. The name just doesn't fit me as well anymore, so here I am.

I have been desperately wanting to get back into the online community for a while now but haven't known how. I've been wanting to post something on this site about being Femme and what I've been going through in the past few years of my life. The very REAL, and genuine pain I feel around issues of Femme invisibility. I haven't known where to post, or how to do it, and I know most of this conversation took place years ago, but that photo really stuck in my craw and motivated me to finally speak.

When I say I have DESPERATELY been wanting to get back into the B/F online community, I am not overstating my point. I feel literally desperate for Femmes and Butches. I feel desperate and lonely and alone and ripped apart and fucking INVISIBLE. I have been searching for the right thread to reach out because I feel fucking INVISIBLE in my life. That INVISIBILITY is so real and so painful to me, that I read this entire thread fucking crying. That when I tried getting on this web site again, after six months of when I signed up--I cried. It's very emotional for me. You know what? I think it's great that some Femmes don't feel an issue with invisibility--but I do. And it's not because I'm stupid or care too much what other people think--it's because community is genuinely important, and when you literally have none, well talk to me then about what it's like to try and move through the world interacting with hardly anyone who can wrap their mind around who you fucking are.

You want to know why that picture pisses me off? Well, it's because it smacks of blowing off femininity and rendering the feelings of feminine folks, FEMMES, as lesser and less important than other issues. Look, I fully understand that because I am white and feminine and seemingly straight that I get to move in the world in ways that are easier because of those things. HOWEVER, it does not change the reality and validity of anything I feel as a Femme in regards to my femininity and the pain of invisibility. BOTH can exist at the same time. The matrix of power and privilege and opression are complicated things.

Anyway. Yeah, so invisibility can fucking suck. I got to a point in my life where finding real time kinky community was more important to me than anything else. And while, I learned a LOT, and experienced a lot, it really did divorce me from any sort of B/F community. I made the decision to take some time off from being online and really got immersed in BDSM. In a mostly straight community. In a community that wouldn't understand Femme if it bit them in the ass. In a community where "FemDom" is shorthand for "Female Dominant". I'm like, no I am a F-E-M-M-EEEEE, totally different thing. Have you ever tried explaining Femme to completely ignorant folks WITHOUT referencing Butch, Lesbian, Trans, your girlfriend at home, etc.? It's actually very difficult.

Then, THEN, I committed the Femme Cardinal Sin of All Femme Sins. I fell in love with a cis man. Yes, you heard that correctly. And while I love him very much--it has complicated my life and fucked with my head and really served to divorce me from the Femme/Butch community further. I have never felt more invisible in my entire life than I have since I've been with him. It shoves me back in the closet fucking constantly. And as much as he tries to understand Femme, it is NOT the same as the intrinsic understanding that comes from other Femmes, Femme-loving Butches, and Femme-loving Transmen.

Most of the folks in my local kinky community think I am straight and I have given up trying to explain. I feel unwelcome at Queer events because of who my partner is, and it is heartbreaking because HE DOES NOT DEFINE WHO I AM. Because, you see, I am still a Butch and Transman loving Femme. My identity has not changed because I happened to fall in love with a cis man. I am NOT straight, as some folks like to tell me. I am NOT bisexual (though there is nothing wrong with that), and I am NOT pansexual. Everyone seems to like to tell me what the fuck I am now. I have even more strongly realized that my identity is not dependant on anyone else, and that my sexual orientation towards Transmen (mainly) and also Butches HAS NOT CHANGED. I would most likely never seek out a relationship with a cis man ever again. Which is also not to say I don't fucking love my partner.

But my level of visibility? That has absolutely changed. I am seen as suspect. I am traitor. My feminity less valid, much more easily dismissed. The ironic thing being I am VERY political, out, proud, radical in my femininity and brand of Femme. Yes, I do those things that others have mentioned are not always deemed "acceptable" for Femmes--swearing, kink, fucking, Topping, strapping, and many others. So, I feel fucked six ways to Sunday and not in a good way.

Even though I know exactly who I am, it does get pretty lonely without anyone who can really SEE me. Without community. It's kind of like the tree falling in the forrest thing. I do care to have people in my life who can truly SEE me. Who "get" my gender and my performance and that I don't have to constantly explain myself to. I am desperately lonely and feel torn in two directions and it fucking sucks. My pain in this invisibility I am experiencing is REAL and does not go away just because I am white and I can "pass," whatever that really means. I ABHOR being told I shouldn't be vocal about Femme invisibility because of passing. It hurts. Plain and simple.

Ok, I feel like this post is getting way too long and rambling. I just really feel the need to speak and put my story out there, maybe have some people read it and get some support.

[Kätzchen]

Just came across this image on Pinterest. Thought of this thread.

http://media-cache-ec7.pinterest.com/550x/3a/b5/31/3ab531ff237b85c33d0b9532492276bc.jpg


The thing that came to mind, for me, back when I saw this post in February, was the semiotic value of using the mascara wand; and then, as if by provenance, I came across a quote last night, posted by 'Soon' (I loved seeing that quote, Soon):
“Sometimes I think the difference between what we want and what we're afraid of is about the width of an eyelash.” ― Jay McInerney
candy_coated_bitch's post last night struck to the heart of the complication of matters - most of which I feel deal with the struggle many of, if not most all: The idea proposed by candy_coated_bitch that "the matrix of power and privilege and oppression are complicated things" (See, paragraph 5, of ccb's 11 stanza post above).

Back to expressing my own, although brief, complicated arrangement of thoughts: I liked the mascara wand in that often times, no matter how expensive the brand of mascara I buy, I often deal with clumping issues. And, the irony of the statement contained within the photo found on Pinterest, and contained within the quote as well, was the idea that if we took gender, sexual orientation and proclivities, race (I use this particular term loosely to include all forms of racial identification and ethnicity, not just one) and all other biological and social markers out of the equation and all we had left was an 'eye-lash' of distinction, how is it that we still face 'clumping issues' ??? (a rhetorical implication)

In my own opinion, I face 'clumping issues' every single day in life and it's not only within this particular community, but in everyday life at work or even in ongoing relationships with people (in general). It pisses me off. It taxes every single last nerve I have, even in the subterranean existence I feel I often lead on a daily basis. And, simultaneously, I also find that, for me, I find myself appalled that I would relish being invisible because when I come to the point where I equally (for lack of a better way to explain it) experience invisibility here in this particular community or in any community abroad, I loathe how even now in life I have less than a better way to reveal who I am. And I say that because in my own life experience, even when I am quite vocal about who I am, I get tired of perceptual foci of others who would say or think that I am, in their words, a "Femme Dom" or "Bisexual" or any other sexual orientation or gender other than what I am. And what I am is simply this: I am Femme (full stop). And, even with having taken the time to explain who I am in a single post, two years ago, in Betenoir's forum thread of who I am as a Femme, I still face the unintended (or intended) consequence of perception held by others of who they think I am, when clearly their perception of who I am is not who I am.

I want to say thank you, wholeheartedly, to candy_coated_bitch for your timely post and the eloquence with which you express your views. I'm glad you are here once again in our online community. :rrose:

[Chancie]

Interestingly enough, here in Western Mass, behind the tofu curtain, I am seen as extra feminine, whatever that means.

I don't think of myself as a high femme, since I generally associate that with a choice of gender markers, but others have said that I am in fact a hippy-flavored high femme.

It's almost three years later, and

I have come to feel a strong distaste for adjectives preceding the word 'femme'.


high
completely
ultra
real
true
natural
pure


I'm sure there are a few others that trouble me.

I understand that some members use those words as shorthand, but they raise my hackles.

What meaning are those adjectives intended to convey?

[Happyfemme]

Most people assume that I am straight because of what I look like but I don't really care what anyone else thinks. I only care what the person (butch or ftm) I am with thinks. That is of course when I am in a relationship.

[ScandalAndy]

Just came across this image on Pinterest. Thought of this thread.

http://media-cache-ec7.pinterest.com/550x/3a/b5/31/3ab531ff237b85c33d0b9532492276bc.jpg



ok...so I know this is an older post, and we're all commenting on it now and talking about it, which is really super awesome.

I, however, have LOTS OF FEELINGS about it.

First: confusion. I do not understand why an afro-latina femme dyke is freaking out about privilege for queer white femmes in relation to invisibility. Is there not privilege in passing for a straight afro-latina woman also? I understand race politics are messy and I am loathe to open that can of worms here, it just looks like the person who made the photo was trying to make a comment about those racial politics but missed her mark. Is she implying that femmes of color are recognizable as dykes?

Second: Calling people out on privilege. This is something that has becoming REALLY popular lately. Instead of having teachable moments where we can learn and be educated and educate others, we have somehow gotten to this place where everything is instantly viewed as a personal insult, and every vestige of privilege needs to be called out, scorned, and turned into a competition of "I have less privilege than you". I can't stand it. I had a friend who would spend all of their time berating people for what they believed was privilege and cultural appropriation. Most of the time, they were just searching for reasons to blame everyone else for things that were beyond their control. They are no longer my friend because they cannot tell the difference between malicious insult and being uninformed.

Third: I believe invisibility is a problem for folks looking to find people to date. How can a person find a partner if they don't know who to look for/consider as a possible match? I would love to go out on dates, but the only people who approach me are cis-gendered men. I indicate interest to masculine-presenting folks, but that is often considered "too forward". For me, there is no appearance-based characteristic to indicate my sexual/relationship preferences and that causes a problem because it immediately discounts the prospect of being seen as a member of the community at first glance. For me, I will have to invest the time to talk to someone and choose to disclose the information that I am queer to make my identity known. I will have to trust that people interested in potentially making a match with me for whatever reason will be able to put in the time to find out that information. Sometimes people just want to be able to look and know.


Sorry for the novel. Thank you for letting me speak my mind. I hope some of you lovely folks might be able to help me understand what's going on with that photo and the subsequent discussion. I promise I am not trying to be insulting, just curious (and slightly ranty about invisibility).

[candy_coated_bitch]

I'm so glad that folks are posting in this thread again. I want to write, and hate doing the whole multi-quote thing but will try and make it clear when I am responing to someone else.

One of the best things I've ever read on the myth of "Femme Privilege" (http://femmedreamboat.tumblr.com/post/39734380982/femme-privilege-does-not-exist)

I swear I could kiss that woman on the mouth for that if I ever meet her. It touches more eloquently on some of the things I was trying to say in my post than I could. Food for thought.

Katzchen (if I knew how to make the little two dots above the "a" I would LOL)--Oh yes, I really like your analogy with the mascara wand and issues of "clumping". All of this stuff tends to bump up against each other in often messy, not so pretty ways. Including invisibility!

Yes, why would anyone RELISH being invisible? Gee, that's so enjoyable, right? But it goes beyond that. I loved what the author of the blog pointed out about the reconstruction of the closet as oppressive. Fucking AMEN. The notion of straight unil proven otherwise I think is oppressive for ANYONE queer, and that the burden of having to constantly come out and explain ourselves as Femmes is absolutely a type of erasure, silencing, and yes, oppression. Also, even in our own communities--Femmes are often viewed as suspect. An almost "guilty until proven innocent" kind of thing when it comes to femininity.

And once proven legitimate--how is that legitimacy so quickly removed? So often based on whom we choose to partner with? It's ludicrous! I really wish there were better ways of explaining and understanding Femme beyond "Oh I like Butches". That's all well and good and often a part of Femme sexuality--but it is NOT what Femme is about. I feel like we (general we) are able to recognize that Femme is a gender but not really able to explain it. The easiest way for me to come out has always been an explanation regarding who my partner/potential partners are. Which is fucked! And now that the option of doing that, for me, is removed, or more complicated, or whatever--I dearly wish I had better words to explain "Femme" other than something vis avis who I am fucking.

ScandalAndy: I really liked your post and had actually been thinking about coming back and writing something here raising some of the questions you did. Like I said earlier--I think issues of power and privilege are complicated, but yeah WTF with the Oppression Olympics. I would ABSOLUTELY think an Afro-Latina Femme Dyke (or other Femme of color) would experience issues of invisibility in similar ways. I'm not really sure what she was getting at either, except an odd way of saying she thinks racism is a more important issue for her? Which it may very well be for many Femmes of color, I couldn't speak on that. My feelings on my own experience are not somehow invalid because I am white. It doesn't make issues of Femme (in)visibility less real. A Femme of color may have other issues going on that make things more complicated, that may make issues of (in)visibility more or less salient. Sure, I get that. And I'm pretty sure a lot of white Femmes wanting to talk about this stuff get it. I'm not going to fucking shut up just because racism exists. I want to try my best as a white person to be an ally (I may not always be successful) and listen to important conversation when I have the opportunity. But I will NOT stop having feelings because I am white, or stop speaking about the ways I experience other forms of oppression just because I am white.

That picture SO left a bad tatse in mouth partially because I felt it insinuated that white Femmes couldn't be aware of their own invisibility AND acknowledge issues around racism at the same time. But, I am perfectly able to acknowledge both, thank you. I am not an air head and my mind can handle it without exploding.

I think it WOULD be inappropriate to continually bring up issues of invisibility during a conversation Femmes of color were trying to have about race. Like, saying "oh yeah but I'm so invisible" and hijacking the conversation. THAT is Oppression Olympics and inappropriate. I would never do that. That space for discussions about racism needs to exist and I respect that. I even wanna learn from that. HOWEVER, a Queer White Femme making comments and speaking on her own outside of that--um, no. Just don't even dismiss that shit just because I am white. That in and of itself feels like an other type of silencing that just does not sit well with me.

I fully believe this issue of (in)visibility goes well and beyond some "hurt feelings". I think the blog entry, again, touches on some of that stuff really wonderfully. The question about how much privilege a feminine woman really accesses is an important one, I think. Enough with the red herrings already.

And finally--Chancie. I liked your post. I also agree that I find descriptors such as: "high," "true," "pure," etc. disconcerting. I suspect that their usage in and of itself is a result of feelings around Femme (in)visibility, even unconsciously. I mean--what is a "pure" Femme? What qualities or traits or behaviors can make a Femme IMpure (i.e. less Femme)? How does that even make sense, really? But I think we feel those things! I think those pressures and stereotypes exist. I think using such adjectives show a real need for a Femme to assert her Femmeness and femininity, to stand out, to legitimize herself. When really, ANY embodiment of Femme is true, pure, natural, uber, and the highest form of Femme possible.

[julieisafemme]

I guess I am not understanding what is so bad about what the femme wrote. She acknowledges that femme invisibility sucks and feels bad and should be something to discuss but that the "passing" of a white femme is a very different experience than of a femme of color. I am not saying this be the good white person. I guess it reminds of the arguments people get into with transmen versus butches. Everyone has valid concerns and issues but no one ever hears anything because they are so busy being offended, othered and dismissed. Why can't people have their feelings that don't always acknowledge or make room for other's feelings?

This femme is entitled to her feelings and lived experience. Her experience does not negate or invalidate mine. I hope this makes sense. I am not trying to disagree with any of the posts here and I actually really appreciate all of the opinions.

[Nat]

That image above - that really gets under my skin. hmm.

You know, I really don't go around complaining about the invisibility and frankly if anybody paid attention I think my gayness is a bit visible except to the clueless.

However, I'm wondering if the word "invisibility" trivializes the lived experience. Other words I have found apply: on the outskirts, trivialized, not believed, invalidated, not a "real" lesbian, suspect.

Growing up, I knew some lesbians. In fact, my next-door neighbors were a lesbian couple. They weren't butch-femme. If anything, they were more butch-butch looking to my 10 year-old eyes. They used to have other lesbians over and drink beer and talk on their back driveway, the sound of their laughter and comradery were sounds that carried me to the window in the Texas dusk. The seemed to have what it seemed like so many men had - a sort of comradery that I didn't see among straight women. My mom is one of four sisters and they love each other and are very kind to each other. But the way these women related to each other - it was something I wanted very badly with other women and that I didn't see other women having. But that laughter, that kinship always seemed to be in some farther room - inaccessible. At first because I was in the closet, and later because I still wasn't that - type of lesbian who could have that sort of interaction with other lesbians. Sometimes I really wonder what it would be like to just be a butch among butches. It looks like heaven from the outside. But, I have found something - if not the same type of comradery as my neighbors' 80s get-togethers - amongst other femmes - and even in company of butches and femmes together. I guess what I'm saying is that it's nice to be in the company of people who know what the heck a femme is in the first place. There are few really who do know what a femme is - even in the queer world and even if the word "femme" is in the vocabulary.

[girl_dee]

just started a new job a few weeks ago. Of course i am invisible.

i am not sure why but by the 2nd or 3rd day homophobic comments had been released into the air and it cut my heart to hear. One is a young mom who has 3 children, saying
*What THOSE people do is between them and their God*
*I don't care what THOSE people do, but leave me out of it, and don't bring it around me*
*I don't care what THOSE people do but it's disgusting*

My supervisor made several comments about going into a gay section of town, and not very nice ones.

i assured both of them in a very respectful manner that i was sure the gays aren't interested in converting them, and left it at that :|

i really want and need this job so i remained quiet, knowing one day i would out myself whether it cost me the job or not.
It's a family owned business and very, very casual atmosphere. Of course they would not say they got rid of me because i am gay, but would find a way to work me out. After a month there i am pretty sure they have realized how fucking valuable i am and what a lottery they hit with me. :blush:

Then suddenly it all stopped. They seemed different to me in a nice way. Warming up to me even. Something is different.

Maybe they noticed the rainbow sticker on my car. :rofl:

i chose not to go to combat in the beginning but to use my invisibility to show them what shallow minded idiots they are.

Maybe they will get rid of me, but i'm too old and tired for closets

[girl_dee]

I guess I don't care if I'm invisible as a femme. I don't care what people I don't know, don't know about me.

And if people make assumptions about who I want to sleep with, I don't care about that, either. If they matter to me, I'll give them more information so they know me better. If they don't matter to me, I don't care if their assessment of me is inaccurate.

I can't relate to the pain of invisible femme-ness. And the way I feel about this, doesn't make me less of a femme, or a lesser femme. I'm just a femme who doesn't care if I'm the only one who knows it.

i read this and i hear you. A while back i would have agreed 100%.

i don't agree. i want to be visible but more as a whole. We are a huge part of the gay population and the gay rights movement, i don't see myself as much of an individual as i do as a community among sisters in a big gay world. Our presence shows people that gays aren't so bad and we live and breathe among the rest of the world. The shock effect, i love the shock effect.

i feel the more visible we are, the more knowledge we bring to people, like at my current job which i just spoke of. My job as a gay woman is not to convert people but i feel when we educate people about assumptions and hatred, and how we are not all deviants trying to convert their children, the easier it will become for those coming up behind us to live in this world. i know it's getting better but i am reminded daily that we have a long way to go.

i used to feel like *fuck em*.. it's not my job to educate the world. Now i feel like it is, i wish someone had gotten thru to my father, maybe my life would be a lot different. Being gay was not an option. i feel like if by using my invisibility helps change the mind of a couple people, like the ones i work with, maybe life will be better for their children.


i guarantee you if i had walked in for my interview being visible, i would not have gotten this job. Privilege at its finest. A month later and we have all had a great time and bonded a bit, being gay isn't such a big deal.

[The_Lady_Snow]

The descriptors you used in the post to *me* are assigned markers of hierarchy... Femme has no High ----- Low, we- just are. For me it's my gender so..... I can't and won't fall into the trap of assigning "value" to Femme. I'd like to address the stuff about Femmes of Color and our experiences but I'll take the chance and be transparent and say I'm not comfortable cause there was some hostility in the posts regarding a WOC's perception about race/identify/gender/Femme...


Candy, I'm going to come back after work and share my experience as a Femme who chose to live with a cis gender man and the trials of holding on to Femme:)

Hang in there sister!



It's almost three years later, and

I have come to feel a strong distaste for adjectives preceding the word 'femme'.


high
completely
ultra
real
true
natural
pure


I'm sure there are a few others that trouble me.

I understand that some members use those words as shorthand, but they raise my hackles.

What meaning are those adjectives intended to convey?

[Ginger]

i read this and i hear you. A while back i would have agreed 100%.

i don't agree. i want to be visible but more as a whole. We are a huge part of the gay population and the gay rights movement, i don't see myself as much of an individual as i do as a community among sisters in a big gay world. Our presence shows people that gays aren't so bad and we live and breathe among the rest of the world. The shock effect, i love the shock effect.

i feel the more visible we are, the more knowledge we bring to people, like at my current job which i just spoke of. My job as a gay woman is not to convert people but i feel when we educate people about assumptions and hatred, and how we are not all deviants trying to convert their children, the easier it will become for those coming up behind us to live in this world. i know it's getting better but i am reminded daily that we have a long way to go.

i used to feel like *fuck em*.. it's not my job to educate the world. Now i feel like it is, i wish someone had gotten thru to my father, maybe my life would be a lot different. Being gay was not an option. i feel like if by using my invisibility helps change the mind of a couple people, like the ones i work with, maybe life will be better for their children.


i guarantee you if i had walked in for my interview being visible, i would not have gotten this job. Privilege at its finest. A month later and we have all had a great time and bonded a bit, being gay isn't such a big deal.


I really hear you on the employment issues, Dee. I never judge people who are not out at work. We all pretend at our jobs in one way or another, or most do anyway.

I'm out at work, but I wasn't for the first few months.

Being out at work usually doesn't have an impact on how it feels to be there but this past week I had a meeting with the chair of a department at my college, and it came up.

He was commenting about a guy in my department who is regarded as a kind of "womanizer." I said I "don't get" the appeal of the guy, but I'm gay, and since the only way he relates to women is by flirting, I don't even notice he's there most of the time.

The department chair looked kind of startled. Then he told me his daughter is gay and she's about to marry her partner of ten years. He said it was hard for him at first; he kept asking her, "Are you sure?" but now, he's happy for her. He looked at me differently when I left. He walked me all the way to the exit, past all the other offices.

I don't think I'm out at work to change the world. I just don't have the energy to constantly reinvent myself to make others comfortable.

It's also personal for me and not about being gay. I recently left my partner and felt invisible in her house for a lot of reasons that were amplified once I withdrew from the twice-weekly family dinners where her mother glared hatefully at me and jumped in to invalidate everything I said. I went everywhere by myself and never felt so alone in my own home and life when I was in that relationship. That kind of invisibility damaged me in ways that are going to take a while to heal.

Maybe that's why I also, lately, stepped out as a gay person at work (I'm already out at work and it doesn't usually come up but there is a certain subtext in place when I make a comment about gay stuff as opposed to a straight person making it), and laughed at my boss when he said he didn't want to write an article about a queer lit professor because "it's not his thing." He seemed really uncomfortable that we even have a queer lit class at the college.

And I laughed out loud at him, which he didn't like. I said, "I've just never heard a manager be so open with his homophobia." Then I said, "Just don't make comments like that at Cabinet!" and laughed more.

The guy was embarrassed and back-pedaled strenuously to justify his comments. I said look, what if I say I don't want to cover a Jewish history class because "it's not my thing." (I'm not Jewish, but my boss is, and anti-Semitism is the only "ism" that gets to him, IMO.) I was playing devil's advocate, of course. To his credit he didn't play the "boss" card, and we just moved on.

I work in a very politically correct environment with a lot of institutional protections in place for gays and people of color but it doesn't sound like you do. I can say those things because I have protections in place.

But did I "change the world" as you describe that act of being out in the world?

I don't know. I enjoyed the exchange. And guess what, he has changed. He's much cooler now about this gay guy that works in another department that he used to make unkind remarks about, for one thing. I wonder if it's related.

[Chancie]

ok...so I know this is an older post, and we're all commenting on it now and talking about it, which is really super awesome.

I, however, have LOTS OF FEELINGS about it.

First: confusion. I do not understand why an afro-latina femme dyke is freaking out about privilege for queer white femmes in relation to invisibility. Is there not privilege in passing for a straight afro-latina woman also? I understand race politics are messy and I am loathe to open that can of worms here, it just looks like the person who made the photo was trying to make a comment about those racial politics but missed her mark. Is she implying that femmes of color are recognizable as dykes?

<snip>

It's really bothering me that you used the expression 'freaking out'.

It may be that it's personal narrative style on your part, but

It's very dismissive.

It seems like an awkward choice when communicating your feelings and ideas about femme invisibility.

[girl_dee]

I really hear you on the employment issues, Dee. I never judge people who are not out at work. We all pretend at our jobs in one way or another, or most do anyway.

I'm out at work, but I wasn't for the first few months.

Being out at work usually doesn't have an impact on how it feels to be there but this past week I had a meeting with the chair of a department at my college, and it came up.

He was commenting about a guy in my department who is regarded as a kind of "womanizer." I said I "don't get" the appeal of the guy, but I'm gay, and since the only way he relates to women is by flirting, I don't even notice he's there most of the time.

The department chair looked kind of startled. Then he told me his daughter is gay and she's about to marry her partner of ten years. He said it was hard for him at first; he kept asking her, "Are you sure?" but now, he's happy for her. He looked at me differently when I left. He walked me all the way to the exit, past all the other offices.

I don't think I'm out at work to change the world. I just don't have the energy to constantly reinvent myself to make others comfortable.

It's also personal for me and not about being gay. I recently left my partner and felt invisible in her house for a lot of reasons that were amplified once I withdrew from the twice-weekly family dinners where her mother glared hatefully at me and jumped in to invalidate everything I said. I went everywhere by myself and never felt so alone in my own home and life when I was in that relationship. That kind of invisibility damaged me in ways that are going to take a while to heal.

Maybe that's why I also, lately, stepped out as a gay person at work (I'm already out at work and it doesn't usually come up but there is a certain subtext in place when I make a comment about gay stuff as opposed to a straight person making it), and laughed at my boss when he said he didn't want to write an article about a queer lit professor because "it's not his thing." He seemed really uncomfortable that we even have a queer lit class at the college.

And I laughed out loud at him, which he didn't like. I said, "I've just never heard a manager be so open with his homophobia." Then I said, "Just don't make comments like that at Cabinet!" and laughed more.

The guy was embarrassed and back-pedaled strenuously to justify his comments. I said look, what if I say I don't want to cover a Jewish history class because "it's not my thing." (I'm not Jewish, but my boss is, and anti-Semitism is the only "ism" that gets to him, IMO.) I was playing devil's advocate, of course. To his credit he didn't play the "boss" card, and we just moved on.

I work in a very politically correct environment with a lot of institutional protections in place for gays and people of color but it doesn't sound like you do. I can say those things because I have protections in place.

But did I "change the world" as you describe that act of being out in the world?

I don't know. I enjoyed the exchange. And guess what, he has changed. He's much cooler now about this gay guy that works in another department that he used to make unkind remarks about, for one thing. I wonder if it's related.

i <3 you fellow sister.

that last line is what i am relating to right now in my life.

Part of my standpoint is my own selfishness, i want this job. If i make waves and start bucking the powers that be, its over for me there. As i got to know my co-worker (who is leaving the company this summer) i was saddened by her, for her children. i am not out to change the world i don't think, (exploring my own thoughts here) i am out to change my corner of it, and hopefully as you have done, make someone who probably has not had exposure to anyone gay because of their own walls, that we are not monster and have been operating in society since the beginning of time. In being part of my fellow femme sister community, i do think we as a whole have an important presence in the gay community. We show people gay is not always visible.

Now, that being said, i will not work in a hostile or toxic environment. So far it is not like that, but my knee jerk, cajun hot head reaction to the first few comments were to say take this job and shove it.

i think i made the right choice.

[imperfect_cupcake]

When I was in college, a local elder of the river community came to talk to us about the anthropology field study we had just completed. He talked to us about privilege. He said that we were privileged to have had that education and experience. That we had the time and means (student loan) to do so and many of us have the privilege of being white or being a respected member or a group who can speak with authority. Or both. Use that privilege to influence change for balance, so others can have that privilege.

One thing I have really learned from living in many different places in this world is that the privileges I have in Vancouver are not the same when I live somewhere else. I lose some and gain others when I move.
In some places I just lose some.
People forget that there is a giant subtext to talking about privilege and hierarchies. Its experiences are local.
I did not have any of the problems that I had as a femme in the community in London that I have here. And there were even more when I lived/stayed in seattle and NY.
The atmosphere of fear of the gay is what drives femme invisibility. When that lessens, I find there are fewer problems for people within the community itself.
Before I left I would have agreed there was a hierarchy. Now I just think there are fuckwits I don't want to know or bother with.
Invisibility is real but when I exchange my visibility for lesbianism with perceived heterosexuality and availability to men I get all kinds of fucked up shit in return that I DONT have when I'm visible. Yes there are privileges to passing. I can go into the B&B and book a room when my partner gets told there's no rooms left. I get a job when someone else does not (I may have to be in the closet, but I got hired). But this is not about how I shouldn't have those rights - and these are rights, and everyone should have them, not have them taken away as a privilege I don't deserve.
But I would like the privilege that I won't be considered to be stupid, shallow, submissive, superfluous, silly, an item that can't understand complex conversations like a pretty plant, no capable, helpless, greedy, insecure, need a cock in my mouth to shut me up, a gossip, weak, meddling... I can go on... Because I am feminine. Even in the feminist circles of the just me hippy types my age, when I asked one of them, as we were in a group and having a drink and I could feel that old tension between being found attractive and being hated - and it felt like being around men - why didn't she put that she wanted to date femmes in her profile online her answer was: because she thought she's get responses from girls who were fluffy and shallow.

That sort of says it all right there really. My local lezzo community wants to fuck femininity but they don't want to talk to it.

Its deeply sexist. And it comes from feminists.

As a feminist I find this disgusting.

As a human it feels fucking debasing.

And it is really hard to get back into the zen mindset of "wanker bell end I don't want to talk to, and so are your friends" and not colour every single non-queer IDing lesbian in Vancouver with the same brush of "ignorant sexist wank rag" and despair.

My invisibility allows me access to RIGHTS we should ALL have. And its my job to use any privileges to ensure others have access to rights too.

However, if I want to bitch and moan about the rampant sexist fucking ass cheese about the basis of invisibility I goddamn well will. If you don't want to hear it, piss off then, I'm not making you stay and listen.

If you have issues of invisibility that are different than mine, open your big gob and tell me what they are. You have a brain and a mouth and I have ears and a brain.

[candy_coated_bitch]

The descriptors you used in the post to *me* are assigned markers of hierarchy... Femme has no High ----- Low, we- just are. For me it's my gender so..... I can't and won't fall into the trap of assigning "value" to Femme. I'd like to address the stuff about Femmes of Color and our experiences but I'll take the chance and be transparent and say I'm not comfortable cause there was some hostility in the posts regarding a WOC's perception about race/identify/gender/Femme...


Candy, I'm going to come back after work and share my experience as a Femme who chose to live with a cis gender man and the trials of holding on to Femme:)

Hang in there sister!

Snowy, I would really appreciate hearing anything you have to say.

I am sorry that the environment here feels too hostile to you to be able to speak to your experience as a woman of color. I ALWAYS get kind of concerned when a conversation about race only includes the perspective of white folks, and I did have that concern here. For the record, I would welcome your perspective on that but also understand if you don't feel able to share it.

I don't intend to come across as hostile towards Femmes of color--I am hostile towards that picture LOL. What irks me about her opinion around the intersections of race and Femme, is that for me personally I don't believe that the privileges I access that Femmes of color don't have much to do with my femininity. It has way the hell more to do with my whiteness.

But, I know that lived experience is never simple and we can't really parse out the boxes we fit into in the world. If there is something we are missing around the intersections of race and Femme--I think your opinion would be invaluable.

[Soon]

Maybe that's why I also, lately, stepped out as a gay person at work (I'm already out at work and it doesn't usually come up but there is a certain subtext in place when I make a comment about gay stuff as opposed to a straight person making it), and laughed at my boss when he said he didn't want to write an article about a queer lit professor because "it's not his thing." He seemed really uncomfortable that we even have a queer lit class at the college.

And I laughed out loud at him, which he didn't like. I said, "I've just never heard a manager be so open with his homophobia." Then I said, "Just don't make comments like that at Cabinet!" and laughed more.

The guy was embarrassed and back-pedaled strenuously to justify his comments. I said look, what if I say I don't want to cover a Jewish history class because "it's not my thing." (I'm not Jewish, but my boss is, and anti-Semitism is the only "ism" that gets to him, IMO.) I was playing devil's advocate, of course. To his credit he didn't play the "boss" card, and we just moved on.



Your whole post is awesome, but this anecdote is fucking fantastic. Seriously perfect way to handle that situation. I'd usually freeze up and say nothing, walk away, bitch about it to others, THEN think of the perfect retort! :|


Also, I'm loving reading all smart responses from all you fabulous femmes on this topic of invisibility--thank you!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Coming back to date in Vancouver after easy access to community has being unbelievably triggering of old shit. Of the being told I'm a cocksucker, and all other kinds of things by my peers in my own community. The younger ones are better. The ones under 35 seem to have a better grip. But I can't hang out with lezzos my own age without the constant conversation that makes me wish I was back in London. So I've stopped. I've stopped trying because it fucks me up. In the head I mean. I can't cope with the constant trying to defend being feminine.

In London the way I present is consider bog standard. In Vancouver the local dykes think I am OTT feminine. And that is about local perception and not a hierarchy. I don't think I am more femme than my flatmate who dress in jeans and t-shirts and no make up. If anything she's probably more girly than I am!

But I am interested about issues is someone wants to talk a about them, as long as they don't tell me to shut up about mine.

[Ginger]

Coming back to date in Vancouver after easy access to community has being unbelievably triggering of old shit. Of the being told I'm a cocksucker, and all other kinds of things by my peers in my own community. The younger ones are better. The ones under 35 seem to have a better grip. But I can't hang out with lezzos my own age without the constant conversation that makes me wish I was back in London. So I've stopped. I've stopped trying because it fucks me up. In the head I mean. I can't cope with the constant trying to defend being feminine.

In London the way I present is consider bog standard. In Vancouver the local dykes think I am OTT feminine. And that is about local perception and not a hierarchy. I don't think I am more femme than my flatmate who dress in jeans and t-shirts and no make up. If anything she's probably more girly than I am!

But I am interested about issues is someone wants to talk a about them, as long as they don't tell me to shut up about mine.


HB, I bolded the last line. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would never tell you to "shut up." It's always good to hear what you have to say.

[imperfect_cupcake]

HB, I bolded the last line. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would never tell you to "shut up." It's always good to hear what you have to say.


that was more in reference to reading that as a white femme lesbian, my issues or talking about my issues are annoying. OK, then I'd like to hear what people have to say. I'd prefer if I wasn't told what I deal with is annoying to hear, but I can sort of understand. when in London, where the quality of life is 68 times lower than in vancouver, when some of my friends would bitch about the harper gov't, I'd roll my eyes and think "holy shit, really??? you have no fucking idea... third highest quality of life in the world. REALLY??? I *wish* I had those problems...."

And now I do. And A) I am FUCKING GLAD I am no longer in a place with a grueling tripple recession going on (I wonder when the the gov't is going to admit they are actually in a depression??) and the shocking state of econmic break down... b) now that I am here, I understand what they are talking about with the harper gov't. Is it much better than London? holy shit yes. But you know what, belittling the destruction that this gov't, the papermill and the sulphur plant does to the locality was really fucking remiss of me. I love this place and I don't want it destroyed to the point that London is suffering in order for it to matter or be of equal importance.
I would rather that London's standard of living was brought up to Vancouver's and even better = not vancouver's priviliged life style brought down to London's so they can understand and be just as much in the shit.

So I do my best to educate people here about what life is like in the EU right now. Especially the UK. I do this through local conversations and face book and just daily chats with random people.
Just like I do with outing myself, everyday, all day.
When I am in danger of being gaybashed, yeah I can hide that, but 95% of the time I am in equal danger of being sexually assualted for being feminine. when out with a masculine of centre person, I know that if someone harasses her for being a dyke, I know that in under three minutes I'm going to be a target for being a slut. And vice versa. it's different sides of the same coin. the coin of sexism and fear and hatred of women.

That's my take anyway.

[~ocean]

Ohhh I agree , Honey ,we are in a depression ~ the prices have been sky rocketing in everything ~ even tho here in Massachusetts ~ realestate is strong ~ BUT not enough new employers ~ unemployment has risen ~ college grads are taking their degrees elsewhere ~ that alone tells you ~ I feel bad pushing the ole GO TO COLLEGE theory ~ who wants to see someone 22 + yrs old starting off life w. a $-75,000. on their shoulders w. no job placement ?

[julieisafemme]

I don't experience the femme's post about being that I shut up. I DO experience invisibility as a femme but more in a queer context than in the straight world. So I am a QWF as referred to in the post but am I *the* QWF? What I mean by this is her post a personal attack on ME? There are any number of things I run across on FB or comments on articles that super piss me off. Do I need to take on each comment as a personal attack on me or can I think about what they are saying, check myself and then adjust my attitude. I am sure I could post some rants about crap I have experienced and have people think wow that is about me! Maybe and maybe not. If it is about me ok so then what? I can personalize it or adjust my attitude or say no. I can still have my feelings.

My understanding of gender identities in POC communities is that they are very different than in white communities. What is missing from the femme's post is what her experience is. We are having a separate conversation here with no input from the original source.

Ok I am very clueless a good portion of the time. People have said the picture with the post disturbing. Why? What about it is upsetting? This is an honest and genuine question.

[Kätzchen]

What is missing from the femme's post is what her experience is. We are having a separate conversation here with no input from the original source.

Hi Julie,

I excerpted a portion of your post that I feel deserves specific attention: In other words, I think your observation carries significant importance in that 1) we don't know the original author, who created the picture which takes on the idea that "Invisibility = Privilege" and, 2) although I cannot speak for FemmeInterrupted, what I took from her post was that she found that picture on Pinterest and found a way to bring that specific issue/topic into the larger discussion, so that 3) the discussion might be revitalized by examining aspects of privilege in connection to Femme Invisibility as experienced by people of color who identify as Femme.

May I suggest that even though we don't know technical aspects about the original author's identity, what we do know is that the picture depicts the opinion of a person who identifies as an Afro-Latina Femme Dyke.

In my opinion, the Afro-Latina Femme Dyke states that her experience is widely different than the experience of an Queer White Femme; in that she says she is "sick of QWFs [failure] to recognise that [their] "invisibility" entitles them to more privilege and forms of safety than femmes of color could ever dream of having access to" (reference: see photo first submitted in Post #205, dated 02-24-2013, in this forum thread).

I believe the original author's statement is a valid experience (even though the original author may or may not be a member in this community).

PS/ I too express my appreciation for femmes in our online community who share their experience in life as it pertains to femme invisibility: the 'highs and lows' that are a part of this particular phenomena we femmes experience in our day-to-day lives.

[imperfect_cupcake]

In my opinion, the Afro-Latina Femme Dyke's states that her experience is widely different than the experience of an Queer White Femme; in that she says she is "sick of QWFs [failure] to recognise that [their] "invisibility" entitles them to more privilege and forms of safety than femmes of color could ever dream of having access to" (reference: see photo first submitted in Post #205, dated 02-24-2013, in this forum thread).

ohhhh. see I didn't read that. but of course, that makes sense.
well, of course I get more safety than femmes of colour... when I'm seen as just a straight white woman, and they are seen as just a straight woman of colour, of course I have more privileges. I'm white and that's the dominant culture where I am. So of course she has to deal with way more bullshit and unsafety than I do.

Of course a femme of colour's experience is compounded with racism. Of course it makes things more unsafe, jesus.

Still doesn't negate the dangerous sexist bullshit I have to deal with as an invisible white femme.

I'm afraid I'm still shrugging that she's annoyed with hearing white femmes talk about their problems. Be annoyed, then. If I shut up about that, then jesus, most of the stuff I deal with here, in canada, and not the Congo? Or in Myanmar??? we should all shut the fuck up. I have a roof over my head, I can pay my bills, I can EAT. I have heating. I'm not being shot at or tortured. wtf is femme invisibility in comparison to that, eh?

I also know that when I could not pay my bills, I had £10 a week to live on for two people for food and transport... my lesbian issues weren't exactly on the top of my list. and I had no time to contemplate those things.

first world problem.

so...

and?

I don't know what else to say about it. My life is fucking good in this town. I don't have to worry about being homeless anymore, I don't have to worry about being completely alone with no family, no friends, no citizenship, no visa, working under the table in sex work and hoping no one rats me out.

Life is pretty bloody good now and I really have no right to bitch about these things that I do. Oh no, I don't have enough money to buy clothes this year. Oh well.
Oh shit, I have only enough money for one zone transport and I have to cycle everywhere else (I am lucky enough to have a bike). Oh well.

Oh no, I can't hang with the dykes in my neighbourhood cause they are all assholes about my presentation. Well, I have my old mates living within walking distance from where I life and they love me. that's more than I had before. so boo fucking hoo.

Still, I do like a good moan now and again. But I am under no misconceptions that life is way WAY harder outside of this little present bubble and I'm utterly grateful for it. And I'm mindful that the people I left behind in their level of poverty? can't leave to go home. they *are* home. That goes through my head about every other day. They don't have what I do. I am incredibly aware of that.

I'm not ranting at you K.

I'm just flapping my text gums. So should I just shut up and not type at all about any of my problems because I know that other people have it way the fuck harder than I do right now? Probably.
I just bought a pair of gold-pink glam stilettos for $8 at a massive shoe sale. Life really isn't that bad for me, even if I don't have a lesbian or queer community right now.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I don't experience the femme's post about being that I shut up. I DO experience invisibility as a femme but more in a queer context than in the straight world. So I am a QWF as referred to in the post but am I *the* QWF? What I mean by this is her post a personal attack on ME? There are any number of things I run across on FB or comments on articles that super piss me off. Do I need to take on each comment as a personal attack on me or can I think about what they are saying, check myself and then adjust my attitude. I am sure I could post some rants about crap I have experienced and have people think wow that is about me! Maybe and maybe not. If it is about me ok so then what? I can personalize it or adjust my attitude or say no. I can still have my feelings.




well fair enough. she might not have ment "if I hear one more..." as not shutting the hell up. She's annoyed and giving voice to how she feels. it's the internet. If no one spoke up it would be a bloody dull place with no info on it, hey?

I'm giving a some text blab to how I feel. And I'm open to being given a word, that's fine too. I'm a blabby type that has an open stream of words that come out of my brain and into text and I process stuff by externalising it. I'm an extrovert. I'm about to have a piece of cheese and get back to study. I'm not twisted into a pretzle. I was annoyed, now that I've emptied my knickers out everywhere, I'm fine.

of course she has every right to say what she thinks and feels about her experience. She also has every right to say "I wish QWFs would all take a cumulative leap off a bridge" if she wants. Up to her. but then I'm used to hearing people tell me "for the love of god Babs, shut up before I shove my fist up your ass!" and I am usually pretty ok with that too ;)

[pinkgeek]

Aloha! (Yeah we actually start business correspondance with Aloha! here.)

What many people don't realize about Hawaii is that being white is not an advantage, it is in many cases a disadvantage. What what? Yeah hard to believe, but Hawaii is the reverse of the rest of the country. POC rule the land here and honestly living here has been one of the most amazing and humbling experiences of my life. The reversal of privilege borders on unexplainable and I'm usually not bereft of an explanation.

Interesting unknown fact #2 is that outside of Honolulu which is largely a tourist trap being queer is unremarkable. QFs (queer femmes) are not invisible or passing; it's much more interesting and mostly awesome. Consider a life 99% without homophobia, welcome to my life on TBI (The Big Island). Is it gay mecca here? No, it's going to work, paying bills, and no one making any distinction between queerness and straightness. It's "hey let's go to the beach" at random.

While outright homophobia is rare as far as I have experienced bumbling strait folks are fairly common. They mess up pronouns, the importance of marriage equality and stumble over the right word for a committed relationship, but they do so in an effort (usually) to get it right. It is unfathomable to most people here that anything LGBT wouldn't be equal. I'm amused and often softened by the "well that's just dumb!" and "that kind of crap still happens?" that comes tumbling out of their mouths when inequality is discussed.

That said transfolk and queens here in particular MtF's have an INCREDIBLY difficult time and largely remain on the down-low in an insular community. Nothing is perfect. Our office in particular is working as hard as we can to break down that stigma and as the younger generation grows up the old ways of transphobia are becoming a thing of the past.

So how is this relevant? Living in a place where what I am and how I identify is largely a "not thing" has been exceptionally freeing. I am no longer annoyed by my invisibility elsewhere in the country/world. This beautiful place has given me an incredible, powerful and unique to me confidence about moving through the world.

PS - No one here is unaware that Hawaii should be it's own nation, was stolen in a reprehensible way etc. etc. While MyLadyMother won't ever choose to become an American she would become a Hawaiian citizen if she could. Folks who move here love it or hate it and everyone has a really cool story about how they got here.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Pink geek, that is how I felt in London.
I was accepted, seen, and to be totally honest, my I'd of femme suddenly wasn't all that important anymore. I didn't feel like it was needed. It was just a side descriptor of little importance, like blonde.
Being accepted into a local community with no hostility or defense or accusations, I'd get openly checked out by dykes on the escalators in the tube... No one gave a shit if I was straight or gay, they would still talk to me in a gay pub and flirt with me.
It felt like a 10 pound bag of wet cement had been lifted off me. I had local lezzo friends for the first time in my life. I suddenly "got" what it was like to have a community, a real one, in person. I no longer called people "my femme friends" because it no longer mattered to distinguish them.

There was no hierarchy of femme, because femme wasn't really discussed. You just happened to be one. And in person, all these discussions happen with close friends.

I love my old mates here, they are like my family. But yeah, I really do miss the unconcerned acceptance into lezzo land and that dykes of all kinds were unafraid to just flirt with anyone they wished and didn't give a toss if they wound up being straight.

However, white imperialist nation? Yeah. White still very much the dominant culture!!! Unless you are an immigrant white. Then, you get treated like shit. And don't ever, ever forget you are a foreigner. But white foreigners get it easier than poc foreigners.

Same old chestnut.

[pinkgeek]

unconcerned acceptance

Best description of "the spirit of aloha" I've ever heard, even though that's not what you were referencing. :)

[ScandalAndy]

It's really bothering me that you used the expression 'freaking out'.

It may be that it's personal narrative style on your part, but

It's very dismissive.

It seems like an awkward choice when communicating your feelings and ideas about femme invisibility.


I'm sorry you feel my word choice is dismissive. That happens to be the way that I talk, and I would also call myself out on "having a freak out" if I said something along the lines of "I'm sick to death of this group of people who are not me that don't realize this thing they find oppressive isn't half as bad as what I go through". I thought the entire photo was dismissive of an entire group of people, and it pissed me off so I said what I had to say.

Apparently I upset both you and Snow, and for that I am sorry.



This just reinforces to me why I never post or participate in BFP forums anymore. No matter what I say, or how carefully I word it, there are always people who will read insult in it. I hope that the conversation can continue, I think it's a valuable one, I'm just tired of having to defend myself constantly in this place where I thought I would feel safe.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Tis the thing about north american boards. One is talking to a public of a type of verbal interaction where you do have to be careful about insult. Which is why I dont post much anymore. My tone is too rough and my sense of humour too pisstaking and ironic/sarcastic. I know that what I've written above can be taken verify offensively. Oh well, I know what I mean, I think its OK with my friends who can challenge me back on the same level and then we can laugh, tease and discuss - which is my preffered style of debate. But people don't know me, so I try to keep my yap shut more often.
My face book is easier to have discussions as everyone k hows who I am and what I'm like.
It is so.etching of a skill to be mindful that no one knows me from a hole in the ground and my tone is likely make conveyed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Just came across this image on Pinterest. Thought of this thread.

http://media-cache-ec7.pinterest.com/550x/3a/b5/31/3ab531ff237b85c33d0b9532492276bc.jpg



When I first read this when the OP posted I was like hmm.. I really could not share what I thought of it, I don't think anyone here or who is posting here would have read it and said or thought:

"I hear ya Snow, I get it"

I feel this way because it's clearly visible that WOC do not hang out on BFP, and if they do well we eventually leave. We leave because when we do express things in a non white washed way then it upsets people. So I now leave those convos for the right space and the right people.

I am unsure what the intent of the person who posted this image on Pinterest had, the OP did not have anything other than a collage, that I am assuming this WOC made and then posted it on her Pinterest or that she found it somewhere on Pinterest, shared it because it resonated with her.


I don't read it and see her as *freaking out* or not stating something that is fact. I do read it and see her words aren't soft, they aren't academic they are just her words. Maybe I am unsure because like I stated I don't know her intent other than she seems frustrated and maybe this was a way to express it.

All that is just a guess.

I do agree though, a white femme, will be more likely blend in than a Queer Femme of Color. That's been my experience. I know this and can say this with actual truth because as a light skinned Femme of Color the priveledges that sometimes get passed on to me are not the same ones my sisters who's cocoa skin are given. It's pretty fucked up but it happens....
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm sorry you feel my word choice is dismissive. That happens to be the way that I talk, and I would also call myself out on "having a freak out" if I said something along the lines of "I'm sick to death of this group of people who are not me that don't realize this thing they find oppressive isn't half as bad as what I go through". I thought the entire photo was dismissive of an entire group of people, and it pissed me off so I said what I had to say.

Apparently I upset both you and Snow, and for that I am sorry.



This just reinforces to me why I never post or participate in BFP forums anymore. No matter what I say, or how carefully I word it, there are always people who will read insult in it. I hope that the conversation can continue, I think it's a valuable one, I'm just tired of having to defend myself constantly in this place where I thought I would feel safe.



It's funny (not in a ha ha way but in the ironic way) that we both have this feeling of unsafety when posting. I know for me it comes from how I deliver things, they are never soft and pretty enough.

*I* did not make this space unsafe for you Andy, I spoke about the wording because as a WOC my experience is that when you do say something that white folk do not like to hear then we are painted as

LOUD

ANGRY

FLIPPING OUT

FREAKING OUT

SCREAMING

CONFRONTATIONAL

AGGRESSIVE


That's where I was coming from when I posted, it wasn't meant to imply anything ugly or cruel about Scandal Andy. I, personally at the time when I read it I was like..

"here we go"

Why?

Because it happens, it's happened and it will always happen that when a WOC uses art, media, music, or anything to express herself that unless it's prettied up then we are being *angry*


I don't get that from the collage, then again I get it somewhat....

[julieisafemme]

I asked this before and Katzchen answered but did not answer the question. What specifically is disturbing about this picture? I don't find it disturbing. It looks like some very groovy club people who live and circulate in a world that I am not cool or young enough to inhabit. One woman is a woman of color and the other is white. At least that is what it looks like to me. They seem to have very flat chests. That is about it. Am I a nutball? I know that often times I do not get things. I'm ok with that. That is why I ask. So what are others seeing and interpreting in the picture?

Also the caption strikes me. "Own it and let's work from there". That sounds to me like an invitation to dialogue and not a shut up. It might not be a easy conversation but it does feel to me that there is a genuine desire to talk about it.

[tantalizingfemme]

I live in the straight world. That is the only world that sees me. I have actually been more readily accepted in the straight world as a queer femme than I am in the gay/queer world.

I was actually part of a very large gay women's group in Delaware from it's inception, helped found it, and yet later found out that everyone all that time, 6 years, thought I just was a confused straight woman looking for friends. (They didn't "realize" I was queer until I started dating Dapper) Smh....

ETA: I am not unhappy, I love all of my friends. I do have 2 femme friends who I wish lived closer but I do have them for support.

AETA: I am a white femme and recognize my invisibility does offer me security.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Thanks Snowy. I know it gets really old and boring. But I appreciate the time to explain any of that to my spun the fuck out mind.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks Snowy. I know it gets really old and boring. But I appreciate the time to explain any of that to my spun the fuck out mind.


Femme threads are my favourite: Femmes can break apart hard shit and do it without spite,, I really enjoy how real we can be regardless of how tough the conversations get!!!!

[girl_dee]

Femme threads are my favourite: Femmes can break apart hard shit and do it without spite,, I really enjoy how real we can be regardless of how tough the conversations get!!!!

me too and although i stick to the fluff to keep myself out of trouble many times, i do love the hard subjects and conversations.

i love learning and seeing through someone else's eyes. Just because we are *family* does not mean i know what it's like in someone else's shoes.

Sometimes when we humble ourselves we can learn a whole lot about each other.

[Kätzchen]

I asked this before and Katzchen answered but did not answer the question. What specifically is disturbing about this picture? I don't find it disturbing. It looks like some very groovy club people who live and circulate in a world that I am not cool or young enough to inhabit. One woman is a woman of color and the other is white. At least that is what it looks like to me. They seem to have very flat chests. That is about it. Am I a nutball? I know that often times I do not get things. I'm ok with that. That is why I ask. So what are others seeing and interpreting in the picture?

Also the caption strikes me. "Own it and let's work from there". That sounds to me like an invitation to dialogue and not a shut up. It might not be a easy conversation but it does feel to me that there is a genuine desire to talk about it.


Hi again, Julie.


I enlarged (via font) your question, in the above post, so it is clear to you that this is the question I will focus on, this time. This is the best answer I can give you at this time, even though I've spoken openly about the racial composition of my own family and social trials-by-fire we've endured:


First: The picture, in and of itself, does not upset me. It does not disturb me that an Afro-Latina Femme Dyke vocalises her contempt for a social system that rewards and provides safety for people who are *NOT* of color. I get where she's coming from in her life experience.


Second: My heart hurts for her.


Third: Why do I feel pain and why does my heart hurt??? It's not simple to explain, since I am technically not a woman of color, by modern day interpretation of law governing particular indiginous tribes (the matrilineal side of my family is Cherokee). My physical appearance is anything but indiginous; although the physical appearance of my mother and her mother and all other mothers before them, are not free of the color of their skin or ethnic markers. Even to this day, my mother is ashamed of her culture and indiginous markers because in her generation of time, they were treated very poorly by a social system that prevails to this day: White Privilege (which to me, encompasses four other "P's" - Power, Privilege, Pride & Prejudice). My mother's side of the family, to this day, will do anything to assimilate into White Culture so the sting of prejudicial treatment is not felt so strongly. However, the stigma of not being White is still very much a part of my mother's life.


Fourth: Much to my mother's distress, I would not give either of my son's up for adoption, nor have an abortion. I may have been brutalized and left for dead twice on both ocassions, but that's not a good reason to not care for two human beings who needed all the love I could give and provide for them. I've never regetted that the choice to keep my sons (who are Black).

However, our lives have never been easy, nor comfortable, nor has White Privilege been much of a benefit to us at all. Can you imagine the daily barrage of questions, such as: Why do you look white and your sons are black? I won't mention other extremely intrusive and offensive states we've endured, because like I said in my other post, I find it that it taxes every single last nerve I have to have to keep stating my life experience as proof to how I know how it feels to be excluded, to be told that I am nothing, that I don't matter, that there is no justice for someone like me or my sons. I used to think I could help by sharing my story, so that others might see and learn how it is that White Privilege is the worst socially upheld 'sin' and how it hurts emotionally, economically and socially, to the core, for those of us who are not white.

But I totally get the original authors contempt for and frustration with and lack of validation for who she is or is not seen by others. The very real existence of social inequality she is left to endure, with no help by a larger misguided social system which upholds White Privilege and the tenets that anchor this socially egregious way of feeling powerful or privileged or safe or protected or any other number of things one might believe to be a larger part of the problem that people of color face, is very real.

eta: I agree wholeheartedly with The_Lady_Snow's post - the reality She experiences in life and elsewhere as a Woman of Color. Thank You for Your post, Lady_Snow.

[~baby~doll~]

... As a Femme, for me it has been a slow and wonderful evolution, I have found and embraced my femininity 100% and that was a slow and painful process …It took years for me to watch, learn, get to know, and accept all kinds of femme's…

I ooze masculinity in my everyday life…tend to think a lot more like a guy, like more male perceived oriented things and probably have more male presenting…I don't have any rules, I don't have any gender expectations and I don't assign man as default to my butch counterparts…

I don't know where I fit on the scale of Femme I know I am one… I am a Power Femme, my power comes from within, it's a natural part of my dominance… Femme is femme… it's not a scale of low and high, it's my gender, and I don't see gender as something you can put a scaled value, it should have *value* period, not fucking degrees of it…

This will be a great thread if we can all come from our Femme experience and without a *set* of guidelines on what femme is, because honestly what I have learned that within our Queerdom is we are so fluid all of us in gender that it evolves every day, and instead of doing the better than thou thing, we should celebrate that maybe one day gender isn't just about the F or the M we are assigned, and that it's perfectly fine to live out of the binary and for fucks sakes that EVERYONE should fuck till they are sweaty, cotton mouthed, and a lil bloodied if that so pleased you!!!

Lady_Snow sorry i cut and pasted your lovely post to what seemed relevant and necessary for my response. i bolded a few lines which fit my conundrum well.

i like you, don’t know where i fit on the scale of femme. i am not even certain i am one. i have been in a wrestling match with me in terms of my gender and sexuality for a decade. Every time i think i come to grips with myself, i find a new twist. i know three elements are consistent no matter how the rest of the package looks.
1. i am 100% a masochistic submissive, in every way shape and form. It is a raw requirement in my life. It is as necessary as breathing.
2. i am demisexual as it is very difficult to have a sexual relationship without all the trimmings. i need the full package right down to the love. Even under these specific rules it is very difficult for me to reach a climax.
3. i am gynesexual/romantic and a relationship with a straight male is absolutely out of the question. A transman, butch, boi, daddy what have you does not count as a straight male and so it still works for me. i can fit and be for them as easily as a femme.
Since i first discovered i was queer years before Stonewall i have always struggled with the appearance of femme for myself. i hated dresses. i hated the shoes. i hated the makeup. No way was this me. i am very much attracted to these qualities though. i have had relationships with both sides, butch and femme. Yet my main relationship has been with a Domme femme. We have walked much of our lives together in one way or another.
Our relationship is poly and has been since the 70’s. This is how we have managed to stay connected for so long. Back to the point, i have been torn by the myth of gender. i see gender as nothing more than a societal interpretation of a role model. You have a vagina so you should fit this reality. You have a penis so you should fit this role model. It is the way is and has been and should remain according to culture and society. Is gender more than our physical being? Is gender more a mental process? Well now that we can transition into either physical gender via surgery what really is gender? Are there only two? Some cultures have as many as ten. This boggles even my questioning mind. i have never felt particularly female. I have never felt male. i am in the body i am in and so be it. i have no wish to transition. It never even caught my attention. i am actually jealous of those who have the desire to transition and do. They have a gender home or identity. (i hate that word)
So here i sit on the cusp of a gender. Female boy and many thought processes fit the feminine role. But I do not fit that role. i do not fit that masculine role either. i found comfort in fitting in what is known as Third Gender or out of alignment with either.
When i look at the butch femme roles i see an image of the heterosexual normative. Is this who we are as queer women? Do i need to find my place in one of these gender roles within the queer women of the world? i do not fit these roles. i sit in a no woman’s land. i embrace the female in me and embrace the masculinity in me. i identify with some of what you say Lady_Snow. i would like to celebrate my gender but what exactly is my gender. Are some of doomed to wander aimlessly without a place to anchor. i can reason that i have a vagina and like woman i must be a lesbian. Does anyone else experience this sort of gender and sexual dimorphism?

[femmeInterrupted]

[COLOR="Red"]
i am gynesexual/romantic and a relationship with a straight male is absolutely out of the question. A transman, butch, boi, daddy what have you does not count as a straight male and so it still works for me. i can fit and be for them as easily as a femme.

You have a vagina so you should fit this reality. You have a penis so you should fit this role model. It is the way is and has been and should remain according to culture and society. Is gender more than our physical being? Is gender more a mental process? Well now that we can transition into either physical gender via surgery what really is gender? Are there only two? Some cultures have as many as ten. This boggles even my questioning mind. i have never felt particularly female. I have never felt male. i am in the body i am in and so be it. i have no wish to transition. It never even caught my attention. i am actually jealous of those who have the desire to transition and do. They have a gender home or identity. (i hate that word)
So here i sit on the cusp of a gender. Female boy and many thought processes fit the feminine role. But I do not fit that role. i do not fit that masculine role either. i found comfort in fitting in what is known as Third Gender or out of alignment with either.
When i look at the butch femme roles i see an image of the heterosexual normative. Is this who we are as queer women? Do i need to find my place in one of these gender roles within the queer women of the world? i do not fit these roles. i sit in a no woman’s land. i embrace the female in me and embrace the masculinity in me. i identify with some of what you say Lady_Snow. i would like to celebrate my gender but what exactly is my gender. Are some of doomed to wander aimlessly without a place to anchor. i can reason that i have a vagina and like woman i must be a lesbian. Does anyone else experience this sort of gender and sexual dimorphism? [/I][/SIZE]

I'd like to gently respond to a piece in your post that I take issue with...specifically with the issue of a male with a transsexual experience, (transman) not 'counting' as a straight male. Regardless of his orientation, queer, bi or heterosexual, dismissing a Transman as not counting is entirely problematic. More so because it is also this belief that keeps women of transsexual histories and experience ( Transwomen) in a state of being 'othered' and not being seen or perceived as 'a real woman' also. Using genitals to make this distinction is also problematic. I assume that is what you meant when you said "gynesexual'? So a Transman without bottom surgery is still seen a 'really a woman' because ..... ? You can see how potentially disrespectful and derogatory that can be to a male who has transitioned. On the flip side of that, a woman who for what ever reasons cannot or does not have reconstructive bottom surgery is no less a woman for it. This is the pussy police crap that Michigan Women's Fest and other gate keepers use to oppress and discriminate out of ignorance.

I think there is a vast difference between sex and gender. There is biological sex. There is brain sex. Gender in and of itself is a social construct. It's an important distinction because identifying as gender queer, or gender fluid, or anywhere on that spectrum, is NOT the same thing as having a transsexual experience or history. In transitioning, people are aligning their bodies with their brains. Making right ( or right as possible) an often painful discrepancy between who they 'are' and what their bodies 'did'. I am not speaking for Transwomen here, but the women I know who have transitioned identify as WOMAN first and foremost. Then as lesbian or straight or bi, femme, butch, (or not at all) vegan, feminist, etc etc. It is very important for me, as an ally, to voice this distinction because it's easy for the most marginalized voices to get lost.

This is an interesting article about brain sex
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

I appreciate your post and your presence here, and wanted to speak up about that which bothered me respectfully, which I hope I have done.

In Solidarity,
j.

[Apocalipstic]

What a great thread!

I am really enjoying it.

What is a better way to say one will date Transmen, but not men biologically born men?

[~baby~doll~]

I'd like to gently respond to a piece in your post that I take issue with...specifically with the issue of a male with a transsexual experience, (transman) not 'counting' as a straight male. Regardless of his orientation, queer, bi or heterosexual, dismissing a Transman as not counting is entirely problematic. More so because it is also this belief that keeps women of transsexual histories and experience ( Transwomen) in a state of being 'othered' and not being seen or perceived as 'a real woman' also. Using genitals to make this distinction is also problematic. I assume that is what you meant when you said "gynesexual'? So a Transman without bottom surgery is still seen a 'really a woman' because ..... ? You can see how potentially disrespectful and derogatory that can be to a male who has transitioned. On the flip side of that, a woman who for what ever reasons cannot or does not have reconstructive bottom surgery is no less a woman for it. This is the pussy police crap that Michigan Women's Fest and other gate keepers use to oppress and discriminate out of ignorance.

I think there is a vast difference between sex and gender. There is biological sex. There is brain sex. Gender in and of itself is a social construct. It's an important distinction because identifying as gender queer, or gender fluid, or anywhere on that spectrum, is NOT the same thing as having a transsexual experience or history. In transitioning, people are aligning their bodies with their brains. Making right ( or right as possible) an often painful discrepancy between who they 'are' and what their bodies 'did'. I am not speaking for Transwomen here, but the women I know who have transitioned identify as WOMAN first and foremost. Then as lesbian or straight or bi, femme, butch, (or not at all) vegan, feminist, etc etc. It is very important for me, as an ally, to voice this distinction because it's easy for the most marginalized voices to get lost.

This is an interesting article about brain sex
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

I appreciate your post and your presence here, and wanted to speak up about that which bothered me respectfully, which I hope I have done.

In Solidarity,
j.

Thank you for the very polite and lovely post. i appreciate it.
i have done much reading on the myths of gender and the sociological construct and agree this is what gender is. Our sexuality is our mental makeup. If you look i myself identify as Third Gender. I do understand what you are saying.
i have not gone to the Michigan Women's Fest in eons because they are the gender police. i am totally against their policy.
Gynesexual and Gyneromantic means i relate only to females. i do not relate in either way to males. i do agree that transmen are fully male. i will stand behind that 100%. Something though inside of me allows me to go there. i cannot explain this. It is one of those mysteries of the mind and sensory nature of individuals human beings and how and what they process. i have been with fully transitioned transmen. i can't tell you or explain this in my nature. i can't say that it is something about personality. i can't say this is because of some chemical makeup. i have no idea.
i can say that i have had very bad experiences with a number of straight males in my life. A number of friends have experiences as bad or worse. Many women have and see life through a different lens than i do.
i do see where you are coming from and do agree transmen and transmen are every bit the gender they are before and after transitioning. i disagree with the idea of gender police.
i am sorry if this somehow seems offensive as i do agree with all you have said. Though i stand with you there is something which allows me to experience a transman in a sexual nature. Perhaps it will all come out in my ongoing walks through therapy.
i hope you can understand my particular quark. i mean no disrespect to transmen or transwomen. In fact i never or rarely use those terms and see everyone as the gender they state. ON sites like this i will use SYR, hym hy and so on but i do believe these separate our community rather than unite us. Though i do not believe there are only two genders i think the only people who should be called by these gender neutral terms are people who are outside of either gender or Third Gender/Gender=nul/Agender/genderqueer and so on. Anyone trans IMO should be called whatever gender they are.
i have rambled enough and say this in respect to the post you so lovingly crafted.
If you have any questions i am more then happy to respond and thank you
sincerely,
fayedoll

[~baby~doll~]

What a great thread!

I am really enjoying it.

What is a better way to say one will date Transmen, but not men biologically born men?

Thank you i always have difficulty trying to clarify where i stand and try not in anyway offend but alas it does happen. Hugs

[Apocalipstic]

Thank you i always have difficulty trying to clarify where i stand and try not in anyway offend but alas it does happen. Hugs

I struggle with choosing correct wording as well.
Language is not keeping up with our diversity!

[candy_coated_bitch]

What a great thread!

I am really enjoying it.

What is a better way to say one will date Transmen, but not men biologically born men?

I bump up against this one a LOT. Because my main sexual attractions are towards transmen, I experience the difficulties of trying to "explain" why that is. To some degree--it just IS. I just say my main attractions/orientation is towards transmen. Why are any of us attracted to the type of people we are attracted to? I've gotten the hackles up of more than one transman trying to explain it, and you know what? It's the way I'm wired and I don't feel I really HAVE to have some sort of explanation for it.

If a Femme lesbian is attracted to woman ID Butch lesbians--is she making any commentary on whether or not a Butch woman is a BETTER kind of woman, a more VALID kind, or are those not attracted to Butch women saying they are LESSER? Not really. We are on a site for crying out loud DEVOTED to a group of people who experience pretty specific sexual attractions, no?

For me, it's an energy of a certain TYPE of transman. I am attracted to transmen who usually identify as Queer, have ties with the Queer community, and who find an analogous Femme/FTM dynamic that is similar to Butch/Femme. An FTM that identifies as heterosexual is far less likely to float my boat.

Not for nothing--but I have NEVER in my entire life met a straight cis man who understands me like trans men do. EVER. Do I have some logical formulaic answer to that? Not really. And I have known a number of Femmes who have similar attractions to my own--and all I have to say is that I think it's a valid form of Femme sexuality. I know it can be a slippery slope to explain and I have been accused of fetishizing and otherizing before.

One thing that has occured to me, to throw out there--is WHY are Femmes even expected to justify this shit? I'm pretty sure that having "GIRL" slapped on your ass when you are born because of whatever junk you were born with gives a man a different lived experience in the world than if they had "BOY" slapped on their ass from day one. I don't know how ANYONE could deny that. What is so wrong about being drawn to men with that particular experience? As far as my trans* partners have been concerned--not a damn thing. And that's what matters to me most.

I belive it's important to be respectful and careful in use of language--but I do NOT believe I have to justify my sexual attractions. Which I guess is a really long answer to your question LOL. I just say it. "My main attractions/my sexual orientation is towards transmen." And leave it at that.