The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Jett]

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

[Jett]

That said as I requested to hear from butches first because I find it's better straight from the horses mouth than an observers perception, personal lens or spin on what is in the minds of butches in this context.

Sometimes I think the prob is some folks think there's a huge war and so just fly with that as to everybody's motives... I find this just adds to the problem of many butches of all ID's not being heard.

Thanks again,

Metro

[adorable]

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? I do hope that this community is about inclusiviness.

-My question is, as a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? As a woman I feel animosity towards me depending on what I say or how I feel or who I am. It goes further for me depending who I am partnered with. I am seen differently by some based on that, not all within a group. The problem I find is not in my personal ID which I purposely keep outta here as much as possible -having learned my lesson well - but in how others relate to my ID so personally.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? Currently I am backing the right for insides to be recognized. I have insides and they matter to me. I have been laughed at for my insides. I have had bad things said to me, been ripped apart and ridiculed for who I am regardless of how that person who did it ID'd. I see this fight as a greater reflection of the discrimination that goes on within a minority community. It baffles me. I believe in strength in numbers and everyone celebrating who they are INSIDE. It's a rainbow thing.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having and agenda to attack another group? The agenda that I see is to be included in all the reindeer games. For space, being recognized for who they are and a sense of community like everyone else and not seen as the enemy because they consider themselves NOT to be women.

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

There are two main protagonists in this story. Neither one hears the other and when it starts - sigh - I personally know where it's going. Never anywhere fun either like St. Thomas....

Now, seperating out that thing they do - I think that there is in fact a war going on and one that isn't said in the open forum. Instead people call it something else in an effort to silence each other.

I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.

One thing I say is it's wrong to classify those who don't ID the way you do as somehow enemy friendly. Or decide who gets a pass because they embrace womanhood enough to now be a man...wtf? I don't think that people should have to pretend to be something they are not to participate and get respect.

I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here - there is strength in numbers. We all need each other, no matter how badly we like to think we don't. When they come for us - they are coming for US ALL. They aren't going to ask how the fuck we ID first.

No one holds some magic key that determines what butch and femme is - no one - but people sure act like they do. I know queers who have lost queer friends because of who they to partner with. This is a serious issue, imo for us individually and as a community.

[BullDog]

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No


-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

No

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

When I do speak up as a butch woman there seems to be some hostility from a few and a general uneasiness amongst more than a few. That is how it seems to me. It does not come from one specific gender identity.

[JustBeingMe]

When I have spoken up, there does seem to be animosity tossed at me and I have felt silenced. I have often seen it happen to others and it's not just from one particular ID either. It's just too damn sad it happens. I hate infighting and I think it's just fucked up it happens. I tend not to engage in it anymore, it's pointless because no one can hear you but your own damn ears.

[Jett]

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? I do hope that this community is about inclusiviness.

-My question is, as a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? As a woman I feel animosity towards me depending on what I say or how I feel or who I am. It goes further for me depending who I am partnered with. I am seen differently by some based on that, not all within a group. The problem I find is not in my personal ID which I purposely keep outta here as much as possible -having learned my lesson well - but in how others relate to my ID so personally.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? Currently I am backing the right for insides to be recognized. I have insides and they matter to me. I have been laughed at for my insides. I have had bad things said to me, been ripped apart and ridiculed for who I am regardless of how that person who did it ID'd. I see this fight as a greater reflection of the discrimination that goes on within a minority community. It baffles me. I believe in strength in numbers and everyone celebrating who they are INSIDE. It's a rainbow thing.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having and agenda to attack another group? The agenda that I see is to be included in all the reindeer games. For space, being recognized for who they are and a sense of community like everyone else and not seen as the enemy because they consider themselves NOT to be women.

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

There are two main protagonists in this story. Neither one hears the other and when it starts - sigh - I personally know where it's going. Never anywhere fun either like St. Thomas....

Now, seperating out that thing they do - I think that there is in fact a war going on and one that isn't said in the open forum. Instead people call it something else in an effort to silence each other.

I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.

One thing I say is it's wrong to classify those who don't ID the way you do as somehow enemy friendly. Or decide who gets a pass because they embrace womanhood enough to now be a man...wtf? I don't think that people should have to pretend to be something they are not to participate and get respect.

I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here - there is strength in numbers. We all need each other, no matter how badly we like to think we don't. When they come for us - they are coming for US ALL. They aren't going to ask how the fuck we ID first.

No one holds some magic key that determines what butch and femme is - no one - but people sure act like they do. I know queers who have lost queer friends because of who they to partner with. This is a serious issue, imo for us individually and as a community.

So female ID and woman ID butches are confiding in you off site that male ID aren't welcome here?

I know many many female ID and woman ID butches real life for decades and on this site... I can say with 100% certainty none have ever expressed this to me, nor have we ever even spoken about male ID's.

But then I don't know who you know I'm sure or if there even on this site...

What I'm really interested if there's some BFP war going on, not necessarily what a person (or couple peeps) off site said.

Can you perhaps point out something on this website (quotes what ever) that directly indicate someone has said this? Because I think that would need to be dealt with on an individual basis (and moderated) and doesn't have a lot to do with how the majority in any group of masculine ID's here on BFP feel.

ETA: Actually even further I've never talked outside of this site with butches about female ID or what-ever...

[Corkey]

[QUOTE=Metropolis;115382]I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

No

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

I don't see the attacks, I don't get them personally, I used to on another site, but not here, which is one reason I am here. Thing is the same folks who used to be at the other site are here as well, so something has changed. I think that Jack and Medusa have made it clear that attacking folks for who they are is not acceptable, and I for one welcome that. Met, you have always had my back, and been a supporter of me, and I appreciate you for this. I just don't understand the whole "war" concept, and if folks can't accept each other for who they are, then what kind of community can there be.

[Jett]

When I do speak up as a butch woman there seems to be some hostility from a few and a general uneasiness amongst more than a few. That is how it seems to me. It does not come from one specific gender identity.

When I have spoken up, there does seem to be animosity tossed at me and I have felt silenced. I have often seen it happen to others and it's not just from one particular ID either. It's just too damn sad it happens. I hate infighting and I think it's just fucked up it happens. I tend not to engage in it anymore, it's pointless because no one can hear you but your own damn ears.

When you do feel dissed does it seem to be coming from an entire group, one particular ID... or is it like the mostly individuals from scattered ID's?

Bull I guess you already answered that.

I guess my main thing is I feel like entire groups are being thrown under the bus for the sins of a few. Instead of addressing the offensive posts, or individuals by quoting and responding to them directly... it's being blamed on the entirety of the ID.

Maybe we could heat things up a lot less if we addressed people instead of entire groups on that.

We are all people here, all different upbringings, cultures and history and my ID doesn't define my heart, soul or beliefs...

[betenoire]

When I do speak up as a butch woman there seems to be some hostility from a few and a general uneasiness amongst more than a few. That is how it seems to me. It does not come from one specific gender identity.

I'm going to be honest with you, and you can take it however you're going to take it.

I have seen you (and others - but since I'm responding to you I'm going to talk about you) go into threads that are not about being a woman...and start talking about being a woman. TO ME it feels...weird*. And other people -have- said to me that they feel like you (and the other people who do this) are doing it to silence them.

I have no problem with you talking about being a woman. I have no problem with you talking about misogyny you have experienced or seen other people experience. But I really think you would be better heard if you would pick your platforms more wisely.

I get that there is a subtext wherein Butch Women and/or Female Butches were shit on at the "other" site. But can we maybe start fresh and not always behave as though we are waiting for that to happen?

EDIT - I figured out what phrase I was looking for above when I said "weird". The phrase was "right message, wrong place".

[SuperFemme]

Here is one: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108767&postcount=5

[BullDog]

When you do feel dissed does it seem to be coming from an entire group, one particular ID... or is it like the mostly individuals from scattered ID's?

Bull I guess you already answered that.

I guess my main thing is I feel like entire groups are being thrown under the bus for the sins of a few. Instead of addressing the offensive posts, or individuals by quoting and responding to them directly... it's being blamed on the entirety of the ID.

Maybe we could heat things up a lot less if we addressed people instead of entire groups on that.

We are all people here, all different upbringings, cultures and history and my ID doesn't define my heart, soul or beliefs...

Yes, I agree Metro. I have tried to address things directly with individuals when it was things they said specifically that I found problematic. Unfortunately after awhile that begins to appear as an ongoing personal grudge if certain individuals continue to do that. I do believe in being direct and it also can be hard to let things slide when you find them problematic. I am not sure what the answer is. I'm just going to try disengaging more and just being parts of conversations that interest me.

I do not attack male ids. I do strongly speak out against male defaults. To me there is a huge difference between the two.

[MrSunshine]

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? No, not at all.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? no, not this either.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group? No, I do see people attacking other people. It does seem to happen more in threads of this nature but I always think/feel it has more to do with what people are passionate about than how they ID. I know for me there are times I want to participate on/in certain topics but don't because of the fallout that follows sometimes when "I" open my mouth (laptop). I feel for the most part that it is usually a misunderstanding of words though. I myself don't take it personal unless of course it is MADE personal.

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro


Thanks for asking these questions Metro. Interesting thoughts.

[BullDog]

I'm going to be honest with you, and you can take it however you're going to take it.

I have seen you (and others - but since I'm responding to you I'm going to talk about you) go into threads that are not about being a woman...and start talking about being a woman. TO ME it feels...weird. And other people -have- said to me that they feel like you (and the other people who do this) are doing it to silence them.

I have no problem with you talking about being a woman. I have no problem with you talking about misogyny you have experienced or seen other people experience. But I really think you would be better heard if you would pick your platforms more wisely.

I get that there is a subtext wherein Butch Women and/or Female Butches were shit on at the "other" site. But can we maybe start fresh and not always behave as though we are waiting for that to happen?

Betenoire, I appreciate you being direct with me, but I am a woman so why would it feel weird to hear me talking about being a woman? Perhaps there is a specific example you can give me where that felt strange.

I think this site has given us a fresh start to a certain degree, but the old attitudes seem to still be there. However, I do sense, overall, more general goodwill to trying to be more respectful to each other as well.

[adorable]

So female ID and woman ID butches are confiding in you off site that male ID aren't welcome here?

I know many many female ID and woman ID butches real life for decades and on this site... I can say with 100% certainty none have ever expressed this to me, nor have we ever even spoken about male ID's.

But then I don't know who you know I'm sure or if there even on this site...

What I'm really interested if there's some BFP war going on, not necessarily what a person (or couple peeps) off site said.

Can you perhaps point out something on this website (quotes what ever) that directly indicate someone has said this? Because I think that would need to be dealt with on an individual basis (and moderated) and doesn't have a lot to do with how the majority in any group of masculine ID's here on BFP feel.

ETA: Actually even further I've never talked outside of this site with butches about female ID or what-ever...

Oh, I'm really sorry. I thought you were asking me questions that you wanted me to answer about how I felt from my perspective. Obviously, you know the people on this site and they haven't said that to you. Soooooo......
A couple of peeps off site? hmmm. Well you can characterize it how you want, it's your thread and you know everyone...and apparently are listening in on my phone calls - odd. But ok.
In fact I specifically said in my post - is it still my post? - IS that I sensed that that what was going on and that people were saying one thing and calling it another. That is what I said, speficially they are not spelling it out that way in the threads. I base that on people whom I have talked to in real time and IM and on the phone - people who I do know AND AND consider to be my friends - cuz I can be friends with people who disagree with me I'm friendly in that way - who have told me HOW THEY FELT about male IDs being on this site. How many people does that have to be to justify the existance of a undercurrent to YOU?
Now I fell all bad because I thought that you - YOU METRO - actually started this thread to actually see what people were thinking about this. NICE TRAP. I didn't see that one coming and I mean it - as someone who considers you a friend.
I will step out of here now and let you all get to discussing how you (the collective you - of which I don't belong to) agree with each other, how you are right and no one else has a perspective unless it fits in yours.
Thanks.

[Jett]

..........I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.....................

So female ID and woman ID butches are confiding in you off site that male ID aren't welcome here?

I know many many female ID and woman ID butches real life for decades and on this site... I can say with 100% certainty none have ever expressed this to me, nor have we ever even spoken about male ID's.

But then I don't know who you know I'm sure or if there even on this site...

What I'm really interested if there's some BFP war going on, not necessarily what a person (or couple peeps) off site said.

Can you perhaps point out something on this website (quotes what ever) that directly indicate someone has said this? Because I think that would need to be dealt with on an individual basis (and moderated) and doesn't have a lot to do with how the majority in any group of masculine ID's here on BFP feel.

ETA: Actually even further I've never talked outside of this site with butches about female ID or what-ever...

Oh, I'm really sorry. I thought you were asking me questions that you wanted me to answer about how I felt from my perspective. Obviously, you know the people on this site and they haven't said that to you. Soooooo......
A couple of peeps off site? hmmm. Well you can characterize it how you want, it's your thread and you know everyone...and apparently are listening in on my phone calls - odd. But ok.
In fact I specifically said in my post - is it still my post? - IS that I sensed that that what was going on and that people were saying one thing and calling it another. That is what I said, speficially they are not spelling it out that way in the threads. I base that on people whom I have talked to in real time and IM and on the phone - people who I do know AND AND consider to be my friends - cuz I can be friends with people who disagree with me I'm friendly in that way - who have told me HOW THEY FELT about male IDs being on this site. How many people does that have to be to justify the existance of a undercurrent to YOU?
Now I fell all bad because I thought that you - YOU METRO - actually started this thread to actually see what people were thinking about this. NICE TRAP. I didn't see that one coming and I mean it - as someone who considers you a friend.
I will step out of here now and let you all get to discussing how you (the collective you - of which I don't belong to) agree with each other, how you are right and no one else has a perspective unless it fits in yours.
Thanks.

I'll admit I entirely baffled by this response adorable. I asked you a sincere question about your response and then gave my own experience that's relating to what you were talking about.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives. But that's you're prerogative.

*done with my derail*
Metro

[BullDog]

I'm going to be honest with you, and you can take it however you're going to take it.

I have seen you (and others - but since I'm responding to you I'm going to talk about you) go into threads that are not about being a woman...and start talking about being a woman. TO ME it feels...weird*. And other people -have- said to me that they feel like you (and the other people who do this) are doing it to silence them.

I have no problem with you talking about being a woman. I have no problem with you talking about misogyny you have experienced or seen other people experience. But I really think you would be better heard if you would pick your platforms more wisely.

I get that there is a subtext wherein Butch Women and/or Female Butches were shit on at the "other" site. But can we maybe start fresh and not always behave as though we are waiting for that to happen?

EDIT - I figured out what phrase I was looking for above when I said "weird". The phrase was "right message, wrong place".

OK just read your edited version. I am not to talk about being a woman in certain places. I should just keep that to myself. Should femmes keep it to themselves that they are women, should transmen keep it to themselves that they are men? :|

I have been politely, and in some cases not so politely, been told to "tone" it down. Don't talk about being a woman so much, or qualify it so that everyone is certain that not all butches are women. I've never heard anyone tell a femme not to talk about being a woman.

My question to the general audience is why does it make you so uncomfortable for butches to talk about being a woman?

If you happen to find it "off topic" in the future, perhaps you (the general you) can address it then.

[adorable]

I'll admit I entirely baffled by this response adorable. I asked you a sincere question about your response and then gave my own experience that's relating to what you were talking about.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives.
Metro

ETA: I actually was going to start it and not participate at all, and just hear what people were thinking... I really don't want this thread derailed so I'm just going to leave it at that... and if you personally feel I've done something feel free to PM me.

I did see that line of questioning as being motivated. I take you at your word that you were not doing that to invalidate what I was saying. I apologize for misreading you or accusing you of something. I shouldn't have done that.

I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way.

So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day.

[JustBeingMe]

When you do feel dissed does it seem to be coming from an entire group, one particular ID... or is it like the mostly individuals from scattered ID's?

Bull I guess you already answered that.

I guess my main thing is I feel like entire groups are being thrown under the bus for the sins of a few. Instead of addressing the offensive posts, or individuals by quoting and responding to them directly... it's being blamed on the entirety of the ID.

Maybe we could heat things up a lot less if we addressed people instead of entire groups on that.

We are all people here, all different upbringings, cultures and history and my ID doesn't define my heart, soul or beliefs...


It mostly has come from ID's online that were not woman or female, and a few femmes. In real life it has come from femmes and from male ID'd butches. I sometimes think it was an intolerance issue for my ID, I honestly don't know the truth behind it because I refused to engage it because it's BS to me.
It's also BS to me to do any sort of Posturing between different ID's.

[JustBeingMe]

Betenoire, just for the record, there are other ID"s that have gone into threads that didn't ID as woman or female and started a rant on their own ID blah blah blah. It's not just this site. I have seen it many many many times on the dash site, where someone starts a Woman thread and someone else comes in and starts off ranting in a thread where it's not addressing their ID and hell begins on the internet.
Bully knows this first hand as well as I too.

ETA: Hell it has happened in butch bonding threads for all butches to come into and bond together. Just sayin......it happens all over the threads. Do I see it stopping? Hell no. I don't. I wish it would but it's not going to.

[Jett]

I did see that line of questioning as being motivated. I take you at your word that you were not doing that to invalidate what I was saying. I apologize for misreading you or accusing you of something. I shouldn't have done that.

I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way.

So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day.

I just "unfriended" about 20 peeps on Facebook who've never commented, "liked" or even interacted with me in anyway on Facebook. I did the same thing about a month ago...

If you noticed you were NOT "unfriended" on this site...

But ok...
Metro

ETA: And to be very frank... until you just said that did I even put 2 and 2 together as to who you were... on my facebook and the dash site, since you've not made it known to me here on BFP at any time.

And again, I'm sorry you're reading me as you are, it only says you do not truly know me in the first place.

[Dylan]

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

This 'war' and 'battle' has been being waged for a long ass time.

It was waged during the 70s with transphobic rhetoric from Janice Raymond and her ilk

It was waged during Stonewall when transpeople were erased from the history and the entirety of the uprising was co opted

It was waged when Brandon Teena was co opted and his trans ID was erased

It was waged when "The Well Of Loneliness" was co opted

It was waged at MichFest when trans people were barred from attending

It was/is waged when transpeople are completely erased and dismissed from b-f history, and we're told it's "A Women's History"

It was/is waged when Sylvia Rivera is completely dismissed, ignored, co opted, and called gay/lesbian

It is waged when there are certain expectation put on Other IDs than woman about how those IDs are 'expected' to act.

It is waged when Queer IDs are told, "It makes me uncomfortable when you celebrate your ID"

It is waged when certain IDs won't/don't give credence and space to other IDs

It is waged when one ID is told 'This is how you need to act"

It is waged when all of b-f history is looked at through one lens, and that lens is expected to be The One And Only Lens

It's waged every time someone claims this site is a 'primarily women/lesbian site'...because it's not, and that's not an INclusive statement.

It's waged every time someone makes the assumption that Queer act this way or that

It's waged every time someone makes the assumption that Queer means women loving women or men loving men

It's waged every time someone ONLY thinks in binary terms (as exemplified above)

It's waged every time someone thinks Their Way is The Only Way

And it happens every.single.day on this site, just like it did on the other site. It didn't start out that way, but it's happening again.

You want posts from this site stating Male Ids aren't welcome and aren't supposed to be here, Met? Why would anyone post them all? The complaints aren't taken seriously when the post happens, so why would anyone think 'it would be made apparent' posting them all a second time? I mean, no one even acknowledged SuperFemme's post this time around. Not even you who asked for the posts to be dredged up.

According to the Admin, this site is not only a place to 'accept and tolerate' male and other ID's, but for those IDs to be honored. Yet, even trying to discuss (not even 'honor') those IDs is seen as an attack on women, and people are then expected to answer, "I'm curious why you don't ID as woman". I can't even imagine if someone started a thread about 'honoring' male. There'd be an uproar. Even asking for another ID to be RECOGNIZED and not lumped into the 'woman' category has resulted in a hijacking of another thread...so, 'honor'...unlikely.


Dylan

P.S. not all femmes ID as 'woman'

[adorable]

I just "unfriended" about 20 peeps on Facebook who've never commented, "liked" or even interacted with me in anyway on Facebook. I did the same thing about a month ago...

If you noticed you were NOT "unfriended" on this site...

But ok...
Metro

ETA: And to be very frank... until you just said that did I even put 2 and 2 together as to who you were... on my facebook and the dash site, since you've not made it known to me here.

Well that isn't true now is it? I told you who I was when I joined here and friended you.
And I told you, just like I told Dylan - it was so I could bask in the glory of Dylan repping me until he figured out who I was...lol. And that just happened recently.
I have 696 friends on FB. I don't have the time to like everyone's posts. But unfriending is called unfriending....and I sure noticed even with 696 other peeps.

[betenoire]

Betenoire, just for the record, there are other ID"s that have gone into threads that didn't ID as woman or female and started a rant on their own ID blah blah blah. It's not just this site. I have seen it many many many times on the dash site, where someone starts a Woman thread and someone else comes in and starts off ranting in a thread where it's not addressing their ID and hell begins on the internet.
Bully knows this first hand as well as I too.


Did you read my post? Do it again and pay special attention to where I said that since Bulldog is who I was talking to (and Bulldog's statement that she thinks she makes people uncomfortable is what I was responding to) that I was going to specifically talk about/to Bulldog.

My specifically responding to Bulldog about Bulldog does not imply that I am unaware that this goes on with other IDs and in other threads.

Oh, and evoking the dash site? Go back and read the paragraph where I (to paraphrase) asked that we leave the shit from the dash site -at- the dash site. I do not like or participate in that website (pm me if you're dying to know why) so I would rather pretend it doesn't exist, and I certainly am in no position to speak on the subject of what does or does not go down over there - I abandoned that particular ship about 3 years ago.

[Jett]

Well that isn't true now is it? I told you who I was when I joined here and friended you.
And I told you, just like I told Dylan - it was so I could bask in the glory of Dylan repping me until he figured out who I was...lol. And that just happened recently.
I have 696 friends on FB. I don't have the time to like everyone's posts. But unfriending is called unfriending....and I sure noticed even with 696 other peeps.

No, that is true, and really I know I barely knew you on the BF site. IF you did tell me then I frankly don't remember it at all.

And in either case I still didn't remove you from my friend list here and I still cut FB people who I don't interact with... and you still would have been cut like the other acquaintances that got cut.

You can think what you like, it really doesn't affect reality. People that actually do know me, here and real life are all the people are probably more in the know of how I conduct myself than you.

So it's all out there... peeps can decide who's motives are what if there into that kind of hubub... I'm all good with that.

Metro

[Queerasfck]

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?
No, I don't feel any animosity towards one group of butches or another....that being said I don't like people all that much in general in the real world. So online if I dislike you it's because of what I KNOW to be true about you or because you are an ass online. It's got nothing to do with how you ID.

Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?
Nope.

Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
No, not at all. I don't see any particular group banging on another. I see scattered individual people arguing and disagreeing with other people. I don't think it's fair to group all masculine ID'd people together nor is it fair to group female ID'd people together.
I don't think this war of words is going to ever go away either. The issues are too deep and personal to some.

[UofMfan]

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

No.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No.


Thanks,
Metro

As Medusa said, gloves off:

What I do see, and this is a a member of this site, not a moderator, is the same individuals most always having this heated discussion. Most always these same individuals come across as being aggressive in their delivery therefore shutting down any possibility of real discussion.

I also see a lot of misogynistic attitudes, and even though this is an all inclusive queer site, let's try to let the crude and crass behavior at the door; as a woman I don't expect to come in here and have to deal with that shit too.

As a minority we have all been oppressed so I don't get why we have to get into pissing contests about who has been oppressed the most. We all have sad stories and we have all been discriminated. Let's get over our victim horses and start listening and talking to each other like we care, really care about what each has to say, and at least be willing to admit that there is no one way for anything. We are all unique.

Whenever I see these threads/convos I avoid them, not because I can't speak my mind, but rather because I am tired of the same patterns that are predictable to develop within those threads. I don't see any of these individuals actually willing to engage in a discussion that may open their minds to different perspectives. I do see them come into the thread/convo with their own personal agenda and aggressiveness and try to stick their all mighty opinion down other people's throats.

It is tiresome so I don't participate. I agree with Met that this attitude at times gets grouped into a particular ID and the sins of the few get lumped into the ID of the many. This goes for all IDs not just one.

We are a community, let's start behaving like one. We get plenty of shit from people outside our community to have to come in here and also get it.

We are diverse we will disagree but let's do it in a civil manner.

[BullDog]

I'm going to repeat something I said in another thread:

I do get frustrated sometimes that when I am speaking up about certain things that it is taken as all I care about is my id. When I am speaking up about women- whether it be butch women or other topics related to women- I am not out there trying to promote my id.

The fact that butch women do not always receive the respect and visibility they should is a symptom of an even greater problem- which is sexism and misogyny. It's not about me promoting my individual id to trump others.

So I may be speaking from my I/me place, but I am really talking about much larger and deeper issues. That often gets lost and it frustrates me.

[Heart]

In Medusa's companion thread (femme perspectives on the gender war), she asked: * Do you feel ... that it [gender wars] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that's an IMPORTANT question and I don't really understand why the discussion of "gender wars" or the "female/male divide" is being separated into femme and butch discussions, so I'm cross-posting what I said in Medusa's thread here:

Question: Do you feel ... that it [gender wars/male-female divide] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying fuck about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart

[SuperFemme]

I think the thread in the Femme Zone is right where it belongs.
Some people consider Femme their gender. Sometimes it is ok to want to have a dialogue in Femme space. This is one of those times.

[waxnrope]

Sorry, I thought this was opened to butches for discussion ... at least initially. Where are we?
It feels as if the animosity/ies spoken of have shown up on this thread. I find it interesting, as a relatively newbie, and also paradoxical.
I am interested in reading and reflecting on responses first, being new. I'd like to hear more from my butch brothers and sister butches who ID as women. I see that the femmes have started their own thread ... maybe we can, as butches, stay on topic and have this discussion.

[The_Lady_Snow]

In Medusa's companion thread (femme perspectives on the gender war), she asked: * Do you feel ... that it [gender wars] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that's an IMPORTANT question and I don't really understand why the discussion of "gender wars" or the "female/male divide" is being separated into femme and butch discussions, so I'm cross-posting what I said in Medusa's thread here:

Question: Do you feel ... that it [gender wars/male-female divide] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying fuck about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart



Help me out here... I get pissy about my femme safe zone so I gotta ask why the hell is this in a butch thread?

Cause lemme tell you nothing irritates me more, and I am speaking for me, nothing pisses me off more than when femme views are dragged for butch validation

It's a slap..

Just sayin/

[Goofy]

I agree with much of what has already been stated. I don’t feel any animosity towards any one group, nor do I think my ID is “at war” with any other ID, per se.

What I do see is a number of people getting riled up about one thing or another and being very vocal in their opinions. This is sometimes perceived as one ID being pitted against another when, in reality, it’s an individual thing.

I don’t believe in having to be the loudest to make myself heard.

Very rarely will I post in threads that do not pertain to my ID. But I realize that’s my thing. I may read in those threads however, for both knowledge and understanding. Hell, I rarely post much at all these days.

And mostly I’m tired. I’m tired of the circular conversations/arguments that have been going on for years about which ID is being shot down and which one is put on a pedestal; how to be x, y or z, or not; who’s more, or less (___fill in the blank). They go round and round and everyone gets their undergarments of choice in a knot and usually we end up right back where we started from. And I’m not sure how we get past that.

It truly makes me sad.

[Heart]

I think the thread in the Femme Zone is right where it belongs.
Some people consider Femme their gender. Sometimes it is ok to want to have a dialogue in Femme space. This is one of those times.

Help me out here... I get pissy about my femme safe zone so I gotta ask why the hell is this in a butch thread?

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

[The_Lady_Snow]

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

thank you for taking the time to respond...

[SuperFemme]

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

I got your point, there is no need to leave.

With that said, it is still IMHO relevant to have the particular discussion we are having in the Femme zone.

Sometimes, examining sexism and misogyny within a Femme space can lead to better introspection.

[Hack]

I sense no animosity from any group or anyone here. I'm sorry to read that others have different experiences. One of the many things I do like about this site is that over on the left side of each post, where our avatar is, there is a line about pronoun preference. I find it nice that it is there because I feel that my preference is honored, and I can see how others prefer, so if I address them in post I know ahead of time what they want me to use.

I think that when I am out and about in the world, I am called "sir" way more than "ma'am." Even when I am addressed as "ma'am," I may slightly flinch, but I decided long ago that there are things in the world more important to fight over than whether or not the store clerk or waiter calls me sir or ma'am. I say that in no way to dismiss anyone's fight or struggle to get their i.d. out there the way they want it. I simply say that for myself I choose not to argue, as long as I am addressed politely and courteously, that is usually all that matters to me.

What it comes down to is I have a very firm grip on who I am. I know that how I i.d. is entirely up to me to define, and not others. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wasn't always, but as I age, perhaps I am mellowing. Who knows?

Jake

[AtLast]

I agree with much of what has already been stated. I don’t feel any animosity towards any one group, nor do I think my ID is “at war” with any other ID, per se.

What I do see is a number of people getting riled up about one thing or another and being very vocal in their opinions. This is sometimes perceived as one ID being pitted against another when, in reality, it’s an individual thing.

I don’t believe in having to be the loudest to make myself heard.

Very rarely will I post in threads that do not pertain to my ID. But I realize that’s my thing. I may read in those threads however, for both knowledge and understanding. Hell, I rarely post much at all these days.

And mostly I’m tired. I’m tired of the circular conversations/arguments that have been going on for years about which ID is being shot down and which one is put on a pedestal; how to be x, y or z, or not; who’s more, or less (___fill in the blank). They go round and round and everyone gets their undergarments of choice in a knot and usually we end up right back where we started from. And I’m not sure how we get past that.

It truly makes me sad.

It is so damn hard to hear from many of the long-time members that this has been going on and on and on.... and that they tend to just stop posting much at all. But, this is what I am often told. And I have to say that I know it is only a matter of time until I just give it up! Well, online. There are folks that I have had an opprortunity to get to know offline locally that I know I can talk about this stuff honestly with. And maybe at events like Biutch voices if we can get together there.

Maybe it won't ever end.

Yup, sad. Sux.....

[Gayla]

It is so damn hard to hear from many of the long-time members that this has been going on and on and on.... and that they tend to just stop posting much at all. But, this is what I am often told. And I have to say that I know it is only a matter of time until I just give it up! Well, online. There are folks that I have had an opprortunity to get to know offline locally that I know I can talk about this stuff honestly with. And maybe at events like Biutch voices if we can get together there.

Maybe it won't ever end.

Yup, sad. Sux.....

I don't think it will ever end. I also don't think that's a bad thing. :)

People find us at various stages in their journey and, hopefully, there will always be people here willing to discuss these issues based on where they are along their own path. If/when one of us gets tired of beating our head against the proverbial gender wall, someone else will be there to pick up where we left off.

Yes, we do this a lot. But, I learn something new just about every time we do it.

[AtLast]

Just cut & pasted and put my answers in my usual font/color- been thinking about the actual questions you pose for a bit, now.


I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

Sometimes it feels this way (which does not make it true). But, as I really think about it, this happened on the old site more often. Also, I believe it isn't a group thing at all. It was more of an individual conflict. Yet, I have to take responsibility for my own behavior and posting style in responding to an individual. I also think at times, taking things too personally causes rifts.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No

That said I often see when (every single identification of butch on the Planet) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes is an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

I don't always see this as intentional, however. You know, a lot of things get misinterpreted in threads. Why we all don't just ask for clarification more often, is puzzling. There has been more than one time that when I have re-read one of my posts that someone has taken issue with, I see exactly where my wording could have led to their taking it wrong- around gender, this gets really sensitive!

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Miscommunication, defensive postering (by all), and just not getting clarification are some reasons for this perception, I think. Also, individual feuds! I have done this myself in the past. It is not an effective way to discuss anything! I had to settle my stubborn (and opinionated) self down about this and now I feel like I am getting and giving a lot more to this on-line community.

Seriously sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro


A PS- There have been statements throughout my time on both sites in which I have felt my ID to attacked and even dismissed. However, that has usually been some idiotic statement without forethought, it happens. I can't take that and plop it on an entire group.

I have witnessed some dissing of ID groups (again, all of them) outside of the websites. Makes me mad and I say so! I hate it when someone does the 'ole cover their mouth gesture and says .. I'd never say this on the site, but.....

[Gayla]

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No, I don't feel animosity towards any group as a whole. I save my animosity for individuals!

Sorry, it was too good to pass up. Seriously, I guess I just don't bunch people together based on ID. There are groups of people that I know and like. There are groups of people that I agree with most of there posts. There are groups that I have personal issues with. There are groups that I don't like based on really stupid shit like the color font they use or avatars or lack of complete sentence structure. But I can't honestly say that I don't like or have issues with anyone based on their ID.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

My personal ID is so fluid, yet so ingrained in me, that it would be hard to be "at war" over it with anyone. I've got enough in common with everyone that, no matter their place on the graph, I can see their points and the totally opposite ones. It would be rather hypocritical of me to attack anyone based on their ID.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
No. I don't see any public agenda and I'm not "in the know" enough these days to know (or care) if there are private ones.


I've said it a few times, in different threads, but the butch gender issue is not something I have ever experienced in real time. This is strictly an online thing for me. I've never had a conversation in real time with anyone about butch gender ID's except people that I met online on a BF ID's site.

I, too, get tired of going over and over the same things. I do feel that we spend a lot of time beating our heads against the same wall and, yes, it seems to always be the same people saying the same things. I have yet to see, here, any negativity to female ID'd butches. I have yet to see the same posturing, belittling, b.s. that I've seen in other places. Based on that, I like it here best.

Also based on that, I do have to question the victim mentality of some of those that complain the loudest. In the vein of "open communication" that this thread is allowing us, I have spent an awful lot of time lately yelling things like "Oh for fuck's sake!" and "Get over it already!" at my computer monitor. I have also spent a lot of time just turning the damn thing off. I don't think anyone is out to get anyone else on a general level. Again, I can't speak of the personal because I'm not privy to it.

I also cringe a little when I get "ma'am" just because it feels so foreign to me. I'm also read as female by the majority of the population in my day to day life. If I make the conscious effort to change my appearance, I can get sir'd more often. Right now, today, I get ma'am, lady, even missy a couple of day's ago. It's weird and I can't say that I like it but I'm secure enough with myself that I can admit I've let my hair get too long, I'm wearing different clothes for work, I'm looking a hell of a lot older then I used to so I am more often read as someone's cranky old grandmother these days rather than the hardass butch I still am in my head.

And right now, today, I'm ok with that. Maybe it's my age, maybe it's the time spent on my journey, it could be any number of things. I do wish that everyone, no matter their path, gets to experience this "OK" place I'm in at least once in their life.

[BullDog]

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

[Gayla]

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

Here is me telling you directly as you've requested.

Do you have any idea how dismissive this is?

The conversation has gone in many different directions. There was some weird Facebook thing that happened at the start, that I believe was some public thing about a private matter, that was between two people and has been done for a page a half.

Since then, it's been, imo, a good discussion about many different points. Most everyone has posted about their own experiences. Most everyone has posted about the questions Met asked. Most everyone has contributed something on some level.

Some issues may be small, some may be big, some may be seen as either/or by those reading but they were obviously big enough in the mind of the poster to write them on the Internet for all to see. Some sparked discussion. Some didn't. Either way, people are talking openly about an issue that I've seen you reference numerous times here.

Then you feel the need to come in and tell us we're doing it wrong. Really, truly, honestly, from my gayla place, why?

[apretty]

who are you fighting with?


I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here...

[Stoney]

Okay here are my questions....

why in the hell does this have to be a war? why is is that people can have any " right or wrong" way to define or identify themselves??? how could I just say" Oh Im a dyke and some one else says well , excuse me you might say you are a dyke but you are really a queer in "my" opinion... you Identify as a man... but "you are wrong because I think you are more like a female. You say you are a butch but You cant be because you shave your arm pits..yada yada.

.I mean who GIVES A FUCK ?

and like wise... How am I gonna get pissed off because someone thinks Im a dyke but not a queer? or thinks Im not as butch as they think I should be etc..
AGAIN..who gives a fuck?

I mean I am lesbian and butch and yeah sometimes people think I am a man, I get called sir more often than not. what am I gonna do punch people in the face cause they made and honest mistake?.....hell I wouldnt punch them in the face for saying it for any reason... I am me. I dress like me, I act like me. Everyone sees me through their own eyes , not mine.They dont know really where I have been, what my life means to me and for the most part most people dont care bout that either.
If a comment is made it is for their own entertainment if it is derogatory , out of ignorance if ... well it is just plain ignorant ...but most are simply mistakes.

I cut my hair short , I buy my clothes from the mens section.. people are gonna assume thinks about me .quick glance, yes, I fit a stereotype one I am well aware of... duh.....I dressed myself today. It is human nature to assume.

Those things used to bother me, what people thought, how I would fit in ,measure up...
.then I really thought..measure up to what? another's opinion of the person i am and how I should be this way or that to fit the impression they have of me??

the person you are is you,the life you are creating belongs to you,the one most important thing that can never be stolen, altered, felt or experienced by any other human being but ourselves is what we believe about and embrace within ourselves and claim to be our truth.

Stand firm in who you are , but be understanding to those who haven't walked in your shoes What they think of you , what they project has reason, whether it is insulting, stereotyping, or just plain asinine; there is a lesson for you, compassion and understanding can go a long long way, remember.. they are trying to create themselves too

As for in places like this.

I have had even the sweetest words misinterpreted when i have posted. I have been attacked and insulted and my feelings got hurt then I got jumped on over having feelings and then an attack on my sexuality

and I have to admit and Im embarrassed to say It fucked with me. I mean I truly let the words of people online fuck with my life.
I thought about the stuff they said and I picked myself apart over it. rehashed the words and intentions in my head ( I mean not obsessively or anything but now and then when I missed going to the site) I didnt return for over a year. Then had a lower profile. didnt say much, just read posts until I seen so much of the same happening to other people like me who innocently insulted someone and then got emotionally beat down and run off for it. And I stopped candy coating what I had to say. I mean I feel I am a pretty emotionally stable happy person who visits this site and what about some of the folks that come in here and make mistakes , words said , oversensitive responses and projection can be damaging and hurtful, and face it some people who come to sites like this it is their only sense of family, sometimes it is all they have , maybe they have mental problems, are depressed, their dog just got run over , who knows... the point is...I know how it affected me and I rather like myself, what about those that do not? so I started saying what I want.

I had already decided that I wouldnt let things said on line bother me anymore and I honestly have plenty of life out here to life without entertaining insults and arguements who either have no right to form an opinion on " my Feelings" ( which happens alot it seems in posts)and then insult me or I accidently offend, leave out, misunderstand,only include"whatever", point to, reference to what the fuck ever I it is I do wrong and it is back on again......

It is like an online soap turning into Jerry springer ... my two least favorite shows next to Rush Lumbaugh. No thanks

This is supposed to be a place for friends, we are all here because we have some of the same issues, we are here to support and help each other. we are here to learn about ourselves and the people we love and or support. We have so much in common but it seems even in this community all people can do is point out and debate each others differences. why separate? why judge, why stereotype, isnt that what we are trying to escape?.
Separation provokes fear, and judgment and both of those lead to hate.

Whether you are a femme who has kids but is now with a butch , if you were born male but live as a female, if you are in love with a man who was born a woman, if you are a feminist tree huggin peace and love lesbian or the two 75yr old gym teachers who have shared a home for over 40 yrs... some one hates you.
people hate us in this world okay.. I mean it is a fact.

People die because they are some sort of " Queer" every single day...

that is fucked up enough isnt it?


why do we have to divide, separate, ride around on our own high horses spouting off what it means to be queer when we really only have the knowlege of one thing and that is what kind of queer we are.

And if any one is offended over me calling us , this community queers than I just have to say..

you didn't understand a thing I said and whether you did or not,, your too damn sensitive and I ain't into arguing about it..

seriously though.....This post was not intended to piss anyone off
If It does.............

......shrug, you dont know me, you took it wrong and I dont care.

Much peace everyone!!
I deeply and truly mean that!!
Stoney





And just plain stupid assholes.......fuck em ... who cares what they think... I aint wasting one minute explaining myself or validating, or defending anything to them

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

M'kay so no one told Heart not to post here..

What was requested and I am OK with this since I did it.. I requested what was said in a femme thread stay there and not be paraded around for butch validation. She don't have to listen I ain't her momma. and well I am perfectly ok with the decision to ask her not to. Hope that clarifies.

I have to go now and start the day

Peace

[Heart]

I did not post in this thread for butch validation.

I brought Medusa's question about sexism and misogyny into this thread because Met did not ask that question in her original post and I think it's a crucial question in any discussion about so-called gender wars or male/female divides here.

That may have been presumptuous and intrusive and single-minded of me, but it was not about getting any kind of butch validation.

I am sorry my cross-posting over-stepped, but the last thing I need for any post I ever make is butch validation.

Heart

[adorable]

It clearly is a serious issue! Otherwise, we wouldn't have a gajillion threads going on the topic! People wouldn't be walking around all butt-hurt because they feel like they're not being heard! People wouldn't be making broad, generalized statements about how one group is welcome here and other groups aren't and making snide comments about how "It's just like the dash site" Well, duh. We're all the same navel gazing group (give or take a few) and we're loud, obnoxious and opinionated and we want to make sure our points get across. I can and do get strident about things as well. But as tired as I am sometimes of having/watching these conversations, I do learn from them, and I suspect others do as well, or they wouldn't keep coming back for more. And more. And more.

Ok. I don't think it's dramatic to say what I see happening - I do tend to speak dramatically for special effect. I'm glad my manner of speaking is translating well online. :) Makes me feel like people are getting me.

Except that they aren't.

For me the conversation about male IDs and misogyny needs to be separate. They are completely different things. I am reading all the conversations in both threads and what I read is that there is a sense that there isn't a bigger issue and that it's just a few people who have a problem. In my mind, as I am reading those statements, I am saying "Yes, there are a few people arguing back and forth because so many MALE ID'S LEFT!"

I'm not saying that THIS SITE specifically (because there is a different attitude from the ownership here entirely.) I am saying that over the years <---and I wasn't there for all the years I am exhausted just from the time I've spent...that they stopped coming around. Now, my friends of whom there are male IDs about 10 that don't come to this site or the other site anymore do not come because they don't want to fight about who they are inside constantly. When they speak up about themselves and their insides they are accused by some (not all) of misogyny or of being dismissive to women.

How they feel is seen by some as a CHOICE. That they are choosing to feel the way they do on the inside in an effort to be more of a bio born man because there is something wrong with being a woman. It is a ridiculous notion for me personally because I see how separate those two things are....but because some people don't understand that - it becomes one and the same.

People who chose to transition are not doing so because they want to be better then women. They are doing that so that their insides and outsides match. Young people, old people and all people in between are not choosing to be men just because it's cooler then being a woman. That sentiment is dismissive to who people are on the inside. And it is here. Right here. Right now.

There are male IDs on this site who have not spoken up. I can't blame them. I am a fighter, but yesterday even I had just had it. It was too much. I think lots of people felt the same way on all sides.

It is not enough for people to say that they don't do it so it's not there. I see it as no different then when our friends would say something to my ex like "Happy Cinco De Mayo" when they knew she wasn't Mexican - and she would say "I don't celebrate that, that is a Mexican holiday." And they would say "Well but you're Spanish right?"
"No, I'm Venezuelan."
"Same thing! You know what I mean!"
Except that she didn't.
OY! And, I didn't keep a tally, but that shit happened all the time. It's not exactly racism right? But it sure is dismissive of who she IS...

So to say to people who feel like men on the inside that they are welcome to be here and then accuse them of some agenda or misogyny when they are in threads talking about who they are - is kinda the same thing for me. "We are your friends. We know and appreciate who you are! You are sexist and misogynistic!...well you know what I mean.." Except that they don't. So then they are stuck in the same argument of defending themselves for how they feel inside.

Being a male ID has nothing at all to do with wanting to be superior to women. It isn't about being more "hetronormative" and seeing that as superior to queerdom.

SOME people will see what they want to see no matter what people say...
LOTS of people no longer engage in these discussions. I am sure that everyone is tired of it. I know that I am.

I know that I am sick of people taking other people's ID's as a personal attack on women or female IDs. I sure got sick real fast of defending my personal ID over and over. Or having to explain why I was a butch and why my version of butch wasn't femme or that I was somehow butch enough to be butch?? In fact, I stopped engaging in all discussions about that for myself. I can't keep justifying and fighting for my insides to people that are making arguments about what it means to me based on who they are inside. And don't even get me started on the PMs based on how I look. (which happened all the time on the dash site) Ugh.

And in that way I am silenced. In the same way I see male IDs being silenced. People can say "Well, that's on you! Don't let anyone silence you!" Ahhh, and they are right. That for me is a choice. One that I needed to make for myself so that I didn't go to bed crying every night because of who I am being misunderstood when what I wanted so desperately to be understood by someone somewhere. It's shitty when it happens in real time or online. And it happens. It's real. It sucks.

As for the people who say privately that they want it to be a women only space, they also are not speaking up. I would rather people just say it out loud so we can deal with that. I would never call them out individually. I consider these people my friends too. I just don't happen to agree with them.
That is probably the toughest stand to take in all of this. And no one wants to lose friendships as a result of how they personally feel. The group is powerful as a body. To risk exclusion is also powerful, regardless of who you are, what you believe or how you ID.

As for the facebook thing - that actually wasn't a personal thing. I still like Metro and her art. lol. I believe that it was all an issue of bad timing. And even tho she thought I didn't pay attention to her posts - I have paid attention to her posts long enough over a year to know that she's not an asshole. This is a hot topic for those of us trying to engage in a meaningful way. Which I can say that Metro does and for that I am grateful.

[Kobi]

Sometimes, one has to be brutally honest and let the chips fall where they may. I am tired and weary from trying to be nice and respectful and accomodating and seeing things from others perspective. Im tired of being made to feel like I need to compromise for the sake of harmony and solidarity.



-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

YES. OMG YES. I am a female id butch lesbian and it pisses me off to be lumped into a butch category with people who do not id as a female butch lesbian. I like female/femme/woman energy. That is what makes me who I am.

A male butch or male id butch is who they are. No harm, no foul. But the two are not synonymous.

I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?

I find it odd that to feel the female/woman/female energy that is who I am, I have to go peek in the femme zone cuz thats where the most visible aspect of who I am is. I feel comfortable there with female energy.

It pisses me off that the butch zone feels very male/masculine energy laden, that it makes me feel uncomfortable, that it make me feel like an outsider, that it makes me feel like a second class citizen.

There is a HUGE difference between female butch energy and male/male masculine energy. When someone tells me their brain is wired like a male, warning bells go off for me. Its called male privelege, male posturing, male stuff. It's not who I am or what I am about.

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?



-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

I am more at war with myself than I am with any particular group. I see the lesbian identity I love being thrown under the bus.

I am told that we as butches need to deconstruct our identities and reformulate them. There is nothing wrong with my lesbian butch identity. It is not damaged, it is not broken, it is not in need of repair. It does not need to be reformulated so I can be lumped in with male id anything. I am not a male id'd anything. I am a proud freakin dyke butch! And no task force should be telling me or anyone else how we id. Deal with the bigger issues related to the rights of alternative lifestyles not my identity.

I see a proliferation of youth running to become trans of one sought or another. Why are we seeing such huge growth in the nimbers of people who are the wrong gender? Does anyone besides me question why this is happening?

I seen a lot of misogyny and sexism in my day to day life. I see it here. It bothers me. Put a group of female energy together, it is one thing....add male energy to it, it becomes another. Check the studies on all female schools and how female excel academically in an all female environment. Put them in a mixed sex environment, it drops.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

Masculine id's do not have to have an agenda to attack anyone. There is a presumed privelege in our culture for all things male. They dont have to attack....women hand it to them on a silver platter.

I dont know if it is true, but some male id here put in one of these threads that the TOS says we are to respect, tolerate, accept, and honor. I tolerate things I dont understand or agree with. I accept things that make sense to me. I respect people not groups of ids. And even heterowomen knew enough to take honor out of the wedding vows. Honor is a male concept short for kiss my kiss. Not gonna happen.

Lastly, it is appalling how many of our female youth have no clue to the history of female life in the world. They take much for granted, much that those of my generation fought for so they could just assume it was always this way.

It is appalling how how backwards women have allowed themselves to slide and sadder that we dont even realize we are doing it.

We shouldnt not be diminishing the female butch lesbian id as I see happening on this site in order to bolster another group. And I am pissed at myself for vascilating between standing up for my people and buying into the need to find a compromise so everyone is happy.

If we really want to deal with the issues, we are going to have to put up with the anger, and all the rest of the emotions that are going to go along with it. It is bigger than gender id.





[/QUOTE]

[Dylan]

Once again, butch/femme equals lesbian female women (even though even some femmes don't ID as lesbian or female or women), and male IDs shouldn't be here...they should be on their own site for their own kind

Because having to skip over 'so many' threads is just too damned hard

And apparently, it's also hard to start a lesbian/female/woman thread


Dylan

Met, here's one of those examples you were asking for earlier

[Linus]

Once again, butch/femme equals lesbian female women (even though even some femmes don't ID as lesbian or female or women), and male IDs shouldn't be here...they should be on their own site for their own kind

Because having to skip over 'so many' threads is just too damned hard

And apparently, it's also hard to start a lesbian/female/woman thread


Dylan

Met, here's one of those examples you were asking for earlier

Actually, Dylan, I'm gonna disagree with you on one part of this. I don't think it's enough to just "start a lesbian/female/woman thread". I think it's a feeling of belonging and having a place to call one's own.

Kobi, as I've said in my PM, I would like to create a lesbian "zone" (naming is open) and would like to you use post as the launching point of that if you are ok with that. I think it has merit and I've gotten supportive feedback from Medusa on it as well.

[Queerasfck]

Sometimes, one has to be brutally honest and let the chips fall where they may. I am tired and weary from trying to be nice and respectful and accomodating and seeing things from others perspective. Im tired of being made to feel like I need to compromise for the sake of harmony and solidarity.



-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

YES. OMG YES. I am a female id butch lesbian and it pisses me off to be lumped into a butch category with people who do not id as a female butch lesbian. I like female/femme/woman energy. That is what makes me who I am.

A male butch or male id butch is who they are. No harm, no foul. But the two are not synonymous.

I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?

I find it odd that to feel the female/woman/female energy that is who I am, I have to go peek in the femme zone cuz thats where the most visible aspect of who I am is. I feel comfortable there with female energy.

It pisses me off that the butch zone feels very male/masculine energy laden, that it makes me feel uncomfortable, that it make me feel like an outsider, that it makes me feel like a second class citizen.

There is a HUGE difference between female butch energy and male/male masculine energy. When someone tells me their brain is wired like a male, warning bells go off for me. Its called male privelege, male posturing, male stuff. It's not who I am or what I am about.

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?



-

Kobi,

Gloves off. You sound bitter and stuck. Why does me being me take away you being you? It doesn't.
You're a lesbian. I'm a queer. Maybe you should start YOUR OWN site instead of telling others to do that if you're worried my ID takes away from yours or maybe you're just worried my queerness might contaminate you.
I've heard this before.

[UofMfan]

And these are two of my examples of what I was talking about earlier.


Kobi,

Gloves off. You sound bitter and stuck. Why does me being me take away you being you? It doesn't.
You're a lesbian. I'm a queer. Maybe you should start YOUR OWN site instead of telling others to do that if you're worried my ID takes away from yours or maybe you're just worried my queerness might contaminate you.
I've heard this before.

Once again, butch/femme equals lesbian female women (even though even some femmes don't ID as lesbian or female or women), and male IDs shouldn't be here...they should be on their own site for their own kind

Because having to skip over 'so many' threads is just too damned hard

And apparently, it's also hard to start a lesbian/female/woman thread


Dylan

Met, here's one of those examples you were asking for earlier

[Medusa]

Kobi said: I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?



I'll address this from my place as an Admin on this site.

When I built the structure of these forums, I made a Butch Zone, a Femme Zone, and a Trans Zone because those are *gender* categories that this site focuses on.

What you are suggesting about "lesbians cant have a freakin' category" is not really on par with the idea that the *gender zones* are a "category".

"Lesbian" is implied in the way that we say this is a "Queer" site, meaning ALL identities be they Lesbian/Gay/Queer/etc.


Edited to add: The last sentence BECAUSE we have Lesbian Butches, Lesbian Femmes, and Lesbian Transfolks. BECAUSE we ahve GAY Butches, GAY Femmes, GAY Transfolks. BECAUSE we have Queer Butches, Queer Femmes, Queer Transfolks.

[Dylan]

Actually, Dylan, I'm gonna disagree with you on one part of this. I don't think it's enough to just "start a lesbian/female/woman thread". I think it's a feeling of belonging and having a place to call one's own.

Kobi, as I've said in my PM, I would like to create a lesbian "zone" (naming is open) and would like to you use post as the launching point of that if you are ok with that. I think it has merit and I've gotten supportive feedback from Medusa on it as well.

Linus,

I wasn't talking about the Lesbian Zone part. I actually agreed with that part. And I so get that.

But the 'start your own site' is where I had a problem (for the record to anyone who's unaware...there are transmen sites). This is a lesbian/woman/female space? I had a problem. Butch/femme is women/lesbian/female? I had a problem. Men are the enemy...warning bells go off? I had a problem. Why aren't there any lesbian threads in the gender forum? Start one.


Dylan

[betenoire]

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?



That right there, to me personally, hurt my feelings. A lot.

So because I'm not a lesbian you do not want to have to share a website with me? I am not welcome in your space?

A little backhistory on me. I have been with women for 13 years now. I am turning 33 in a couple of weeks. The first three years I was with women - I was ONLY with women. I called myself a lesbian. I wasn't. Know why I said I was something I wasn't? Because it was made -very- clear to me that who/what I actually am is distasteful. Bad. Pandering to male desires.

I like to use the word Queer to describe who I am. It's my identity. But if we want to get super-technical...when it boils down to it I -am- bi/pansexual.

After 3 years of being out I had to come out again as what I really am - and I lost a tonne of friends. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how I was SHIT ON by lesbians because I happened to start dating someone who happened to have a penis.

Since I was 20 I've dated a lot of people. Mostly not serious (cuz that's what dating is) sometimes it was just sex (because women like to fuck, too) and some times it has been serious. Absolutely, in the last 13 years I've been with more women than I have been with men - but (aside from the fact that I'm married and monogamous) men are not ruled out for me by virtue of their being men. I am attracted to a person for their manner of being, the interests we share, and sometimes their shoes or haircut - FIRST. Their sex or identity comes second. And because their sex or identity comes second...even among the females I have been with, there is no real trend. I've been with all sorts. (Except for Femmes, I've never been with one. Although there was a time when I was so in love with my BFF who was Femme that I cried when she left a party with some dumb slutty Butch who fucked every single thing in a skirt in the city of Toronto - there's no way I'm ever gonna tell HER that, though.)

I'm a minority within a minority within a minority. If I'm not welcome HERE then, jesus, where am I welcome?

Right. So when you start talking about a Lesbian-only website - you start talking about the sort of website where I would not be welcome. You start talking about the sort of website that would completely alienate me because my fluidity makes the members of said website SO SUPER UNCOMFORTABLE. You start talking about the sort of website that, frankly, I would want no part of - since I know I don't belong there.

Have you not made any meaningful connections/friendships with people from this site who are not lesbians? Haven't you? Not even one? Think hard - I bet you have. And would you be willing to give up any non-lesbian friends you've made in favour of having a website where you would never have to associate with anybody who is different from you?

[Medusa]

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants?
Because we ARE a mixed group of participants and that makes us awesome.

Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them?
Those sites exist. That SPACE, however, ALSO exists on this site and that also makes us awesome.

Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there?
This website IS a home that honors those identities and yours. Because so many Transpeople have roots in Butch/Femme culture, they have a home here. Not a tolerated home, a home. No qualifier. Full stop.


Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community.
And you have that here if you choose to embrace it. There are a LOT of people who identify as "Lesbian" on this site...that includes a few Transpeople who identify as a Lesbian. Are you shocked? Or did you think that only women born women identify as Lesbians?
When you say you fought to be a Lesbian, did you mean that you fought for women-only space? When you said that you wanted a Lesbian community, did you mean a "women only" community?

What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own?
They have and they do. Right here. That doesnt make us a "Trans" website or a "Male" website, it means we are an inclusive website and that makes us awesome.


Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home?
I think I read you saying that Trans people and Male -identified people are just here to "get some pussy".
If that is indeed what you are saying, it's problematic on a couple of levels. First off, it implies that Transpeople or Male-identified people are vultures coming to pick the bones of the hoards of willing pussies clean. Not. So. Much.
Secondly, it implies that we Femmes are so automated, so "Stepford Pussied" that we cant discern for ourselves what we are attracted to.
There are a lot of very attractive Transmen and Male-identified people up in this space. When I was single, I didn't run right out and get me one of those fancy Trans models or play "Penelope Peril" on the railroad tracks of "prey" and "predator" simply because Thinker or Linus or Dylan EXISTED. Why? Because my desires arent that shallow.

Why mess up a good thing?

What's the "good thing" Kobi? A community without any sort of male-identified or Male presence at all? Im trying to understand the last part?

[/QUOTE]


Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

[Kobi]

[I'll address this from my place as an Admin on this site.

When I built the structure of these forums, I made a Butch Zone, a Femme Zone, and a Trans Zone because those are *gender* categories that this site focuses on.

What you are suggesting about "lesbians cant have a freakin' category" is not really on par with the idea that the *gender zones* are a "category".

"Lesbian" is implied in the way that we say this is a "Queer" site, meaning ALL identities be they Lesbian/Gay/Queer/etc.


Edited to add: The last sentence BECAUSE we have Lesbian Butches, Lesbian Femmes, and Lesbian Transfolks. BECAUSE we ahve GAY Butches, GAY Femmes, GAY Transfolks. BECAUSE we have Queer Butches, Queer Femmes, Queer Transfolks.[/QUOTE]

Thank you explaining this but I still dont get it. This approach is all new to me, I dont know the vernacular and what it means. I have been out of the loop for 20 years. Someone says third gender and Im like there is a third gender?

And Im not trying to be a bitch, Im trying to understand something and everytime I think I got a piece of it, I realize I dont.

When you say butch, femme, and trans are the gender categories that this focuses on and the rest of us are lumped into queer....I have a problem with that. You can categorize your site anyway you want lol, Im just trying to put the pieces together so I understand what ya'll are talking about. I dont know if I fit here. Im trying to figure that out.

The larger community everyone seems to point to is the GLBTIQ one. So gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans, I dont know what I is and Queer. I dont see femme or butch here. I do see lesbian and trans.

Femmes are a gender? Butches are a gender? And lesbians are what? Other? Miscellaneous?

It is your site, you can define it anyway you like. But to me, to say butch, femme, trans are the genders we deal with and the rest of you are a fruit salad seems sexist and misogynistic and misandriatic (I think thats right), and homophobic to me. It doesnt feel like those of us in the fruit salad are seen on an equal par with the rest of the identities that we are supposed to respect, accept, tolerate, and maybe honor.

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.

On the one hand, I hear we need to be excepting of all id's, male, female, butch, femme, male id, female id etc but we decided to categorize you so you cant easily self identify even tho we want you to but it doesnt fit the plan so dont ask questions cuz it doesnt make sense but that the way it is.

Again, I am trying to understand something that is not making sense to me. This is not computing and maybe it wasnt meant. Maybe I just dont belong here. Cuz no one is gonna tell me I, as a lesbian, must fit myself into preconceived notions. That is homophobic.

[adorable]

Sometimes, one has to be brutally honest and let the chips fall where they may. I am tired and weary from trying to be nice and respectful and accomodating and seeing things from others perspective. Im tired of being made to feel like I need to compromise for the sake of harmony and solidarity.



-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

YES. OMG YES. I am a female id butch lesbian and it pisses me off to be lumped into a butch category with people who do not id as a female butch lesbian. I like female/femme/woman energy. That is what makes me who I am.

A male butch or male id butch is who they are. No harm, no foul. But the two are not synonymous.

I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?

I find it odd that to feel the female/woman/female energy that is who I am, I have to go peek in the femme zone cuz thats where the most visible aspect of who I am is. I feel comfortable there with female energy.

It pisses me off that the butch zone feels very male/masculine energy laden, that it makes me feel uncomfortable, that it make me feel like an outsider, that it makes me feel like a second class citizen.

There is a HUGE difference between female butch energy and male/male masculine energy. When someone tells me their brain is wired like a male, warning bells go off for me. Its called male privelege, male posturing, male stuff. It's not who I am or what I am about.

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?



-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

I am more at war with myself than I am with any particular group. I see the lesbian identity I love being thrown under the bus.

I am told that we as butches need to deconstruct our identities and reformulate them. There is nothing wrong with my lesbian butch identity. It is not damaged, it is not broken, it is not in need of repair. It does not need to be reformulated so I can be lumped in with male id anything. I am not a male id'd anything. I am a proud freakin dyke butch! And no task force should be telling me or anyone else how we id. Deal with the bigger issues related to the rights of alternative lifestyles not my identity.

I see a proliferation of youth running to become trans of one sought or another. Why are we seeing such huge growth in the nimbers of people who are the wrong gender? Does anyone besides me question why this is happening?

I seen a lot of misogyny and sexism in my day to day life. I see it here. It bothers me. Put a group of female energy together, it is one thing....add male energy to it, it becomes another. Check the studies on all female schools and how female excel academically in an all female environment. Put them in a mixed sex environment, it drops.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

Masculine id's do not have to have an agenda to attack anyone. There is a presumed privelege in our culture for all things male. They dont have to attack....women hand it to them on a silver platter.

I dont know if it is true, but some male id here put in one of these threads that the TOS says we are to respect, tolerate, accept, and honor. I tolerate things I dont understand or agree with. I accept things that make sense to me. I respect people not groups of ids. And even heterowomen knew enough to take honor out of the wedding vows. Honor is a male concept short for kiss my kiss. Not gonna happen.

Lastly, it is appalling how many of our female youth have no clue to the history of female life in the world. They take much for granted, much that those of my generation fought for so they could just assume it was always this way.

It is appalling how how backwards women have allowed themselves to slide and sadder that we dont even realize we are doing it.

We shouldnt not be diminishing the female butch lesbian id as I see happening on this site in order to bolster another group. And I am pissed at myself for vascilating between standing up for my people and buying into the need to find a compromise so everyone is happy.

If we really want to deal with the issues, we are going to have to put up with the anger, and all the rest of the emotions that are going to go along with it. It is bigger than gender id.





[/QUOTE]

Kobi
I don't agree with a damn thing that you said.
I think your wrong, and not just a little wrong.
Other people have already said what I was thinking.
I also want to thank you for having the guts to say it.
I for one appreciate the honesty.

[Liam]

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?




When I first discovered an online butch/femme community, I felt like I had finally found my people. Being relatively isolated, it filled an emptiness I felt; yes, I had friends in my real time life, but none identified as butches and femmes, much less transgender. I was blessed to be able to socialize with an FTM on several occasions. That said, it has always been my belief, that because I once tried to be a woman, and tried to be a dyke/lesbian and led consciousness raising groups on the myriad of isms in our society, marched and fought for women's rights as well as LGBQT rights, pioneered with others to create organizations to address the isms, and the rights of women and those who fall into the category of LGBQT, that I would be welcome here. Transitioning does not erase my past, nor does it transform me into a popular cliche I have heard more than once, right here, a "knuckle dragging male."

When I was trying to be a woman, I accomplished a number of things, as "the first woman to do/be ______." I did not succeed because of male privilege, but because I refused to be told that I was limited to be who I wanted to be, or what I chose to do. I dislike tooting my own horn, but I think it is important for others here to know that I transitioned to male, not for the privilege, but because it was a matter of being true to myself.

[JustJo]

I am almost scared to come into this thread, but I am anyway (cuz that's the kind of femme I am....or, the term I prefer to embrace, the kind of pushy broad I am).

Anyway, I appreciate all of those who are being honest in here...whether I agree with them or not. I've thanked posts that I agree with, and some that I don't - because I believe that they are speaking their own truth fearlessly...and I admire that even when I don't agree.

What I'm seeing here are alot of assumptions. If someone asks for a lesbian space then they're dissing non-lesbians, if they claim an ID then they're dissing those that don't ID that way. If they are trans then they're claiming or somehow unaware of male privilege. I just don't agree. I think what Liam said here is key (and pardon me taking such a short snip Liam)

I transitioned to male, not for the privilege, but because it was a matter of being true to myself.

We are all here in our own way, because it's who we are. I didn't decide to claim female or woman...it's who I am. I presume that those who claim male or queer or butch or femme or lesbian or fill in the blank are doing the same thing. And being me isn't dissing you, undermining you or taking anything from you (general you...of course).

And one tiny note...I keep hearing all of this (pardon me, but in my opinion) total crap about women being somehow less than, weaker than, or less capable than men. In my experience, not even close. In my life, the women have been stronger and more resilient. I understand that's not everyone's experience...and no, I'm not hating on men. But in my experience it's the women who stick around and do what needs to be done...even when it's damn hard to do. It's the women who have made sure that children were provided for, that friends were listened to, and that the community stayed a community. If my life exploded tomorrow, I know who I could call for help...and they were all born with vaginas.

And, yes, I'm getting cranky. Sorry.

[Gayla]

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

I've read your various replies a couple of times and there is quite a bit that I don't understand. I picked this quote because it confuses me the most.

Please don't take this as me trying to silence you or tell you that you don't belong here because both would be wrong. This is simply me questioning for clarification.

The name of the site makes it pretty clear what it's all about. If you are not any of things the site caters to, then why join the site?

If I pulled this out of context or just completely read it wrong, please let me know!

[Kobi]

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.[/QUOTE]

Medusa,

I appreciate you time and energy. I will try and help you understand where I am coming from but need to warn you at the moment I dont know if I am on foot or horseback. :)

And I want to reiterate, I am not dissing, dismissing or bashing anyones identity or right to be here. I am trying to understand where visible female id'd butches fit in this mix, if they fit in this mix.

And I apologize if I inadvertently offend someone. Im not trying to do so. Im trying to get my head around something that does not fit with my experiences.

I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I understand how trans folk have their roots in the butch-femme community. Not quite THAT dense. LOL.

I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

When I say I fought to be a lesbian I mean I am from the time when gay/trans folks were not as free as they are today to express their identities, nor did they have the concepts/fluidity to developed these or pursue them with as great a regularity as now.

And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

I think to reduce it to a lesbian thing only without addressing the male/female thing is a mistake. People can easily call me a misantrophe. But until you walked in my shoes, had my experiences and understand where my mistrust of male comes from, you have no right to judge me. I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

When I hear some male acknowledgement of this built in problem in our society and how it can impact on communities like this, I am willing to listen. When I get dismissed by females or males because they are not aware of or willing to admit this exists, I have a problem with it.

If this helps and it wont cuz my examples never do, my brother is gay. When I asked him and his partner about these issues and got passed the boy you women sure like to make things difficult comment.....it was very clear to me, from their perspective that trans/male id means nothing to them. At the moment, they see a mtf as a female, they see a ftm as a female. Neither is a threat because they arent real males. Not a representative sampling but an illustration of the thinking of the patriarchy.

I am not going to even address the transmen here for p***. That is incredible sexist to both male and female to objectify one for the mere purpose of a sex act. I am not trans so I was not aware there were trans communities.

What's the "good thing" Kobi? A community without any sort of male-identified or Male presence at all? Im trying to understand the last part?

Wow how to answer that one. I am a lesbian. I am a woman id lesbian. My world is women and lesbians. I live in a partiarchial world where I have to deal with male stuff every day. I like my female place and the energy it has and the energy it gives me. Is this an outdated concept? Is that wrong?
Are gay men flocking to spend time with me cuz I am a woman? Naw. Do I want to spend my free time with them.....depends who they are but not a lot of time. Do I perpetuate a separatist ideology....no....male kids have great toys and trucks and sports stuff and I like playing with them. Its the bigger ones who have this image and expectation of me as a woman and them as the ones in charge that bug me.

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

Anyone have any prevacid?








[/QUOTE]

[Medusa]

Responding in a darker red this time :)

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

Medusa,

I appreciate you time and energy. I will try and help you understand where I am coming from but need to warn you at the moment I dont know if I am on foot or horseback. :)

And I want to reiterate, I am not dissing, dismissing or bashing anyones identity or right to be here. I am trying to understand where visible female id'd butches fit in this mix, if they fit in this mix.

And I apologize if I inadvertently offend someone. Im not trying to do so. Im trying to get my head around something that does not fit with my experiences.

I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I see what you are saying but I didnt understand why you asked where your zone was when I feel like this entire website is a zone for lesbians. This is a Queer website encompassing all of the spectrum and ways of being Queer. Lesbian fits there with equal and accessible space.
I think where you and I are misunderstanding each other is that I personally do not define "Lesbian" as a gender identity. I *do* define Butch and Femme as a gender identity. Hence, the Zones for each *gender* identity to commune with one another.
If you identify as a Butch Lesbian or a Femme Lesbian, one of those Zones should work for you. See what I'm saying?


I understand how trans folk have their roots in the butch-femme community. Not quite THAT dense. LOL.

I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

Oooh, look harder! :) There are a lot of Lesbian-identified Butches and Femmes here. I do think that a lot of people on this site define "Lesbian" as a political identity and not a gender identity. Not all, mind you, but at least several people that I have talked to and seen write about it at length. If you want to see visible Lesbians, look at anything that I write, or anything that anyone else who identifies in any way as a Lesbian writes.
I don't necessarily identify as a Lesbian first or even in the same way as you; it's not my gender identity but I do embrace some of the politics that make up "Lesbian" as I see it.


I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

It can but it can also mean that a Female who has transitioned to Male who is now known as a Transman has chosen to hang on to their identity as a Lesbian.


And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

I think that in most cases, "Lesbian" still does presuppose a gender of female.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

That happens here. Women develop themselves as women. Women develop themselves as Butches, Femmes, and sometimes Trans people.

I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

This might be the root of it. The mistrust of "all things male" can and does translate into a mistrust of all things Trans and all things male-identified. It summarily categorizes as "male" people who are often NOT summarily male and who most definitely do not have a summarily male experience.


Wow how to answer that one. I am a lesbian. I am a woman id lesbian. My world is women and lesbians. I live in a partiarchial world where I have to deal with male stuff every day. I like my female place and the energy it has and the energy it gives me. Is this an outdated concept? Is that wrong?

It's not outdated or wrong and you aren't alone. A great many of us on this website like our female places and revel in female energy. :)

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

I don't think it would detract from Femme. At least not mine. I don't see how identifying as Femme could ever be sexist since it is the very heart of embracing the feminine and Queering it up in fucking amazing ways. If someone asked me to find a male counterpart to it, I would be at a loss since Femme doesn't need anything male to exist. It's a standalone identity. Even if it fucks other women. Even if it fucks men.


[/QUOTE]


[/QUOTE]

[Kobi]

If they are trans then they're claiming or somehow unaware of male privilege. I just don't agree. I think what Liam said here is key (and pardon me taking such a short snip Liam)

And one tiny note...I keep hearing all of this (pardon me, but in my opinion) total crap about women being somehow less than, weaker than, or less capable than men. In my experience, not even close. In my life, the women have been stronger and more resilient. I understand that's not everyone's experience...and no, I'm not hating on men. But in my experience it's the women who stick around and do what needs to be done...even when it's damn hard to do. It's the women who have made sure that children were provided for, that friends were listened to, and that the community stayed a community. If my life exploded tomorrow, I know who I could call for help...and they were all born with vaginas.

And, yes, I'm getting cranky. Sorry.

Hi JustJo,

Glad you dropped by.

I will try my best to answer your concerns....

1. the issue is not why did Liam personally transition to male. Of course one transitions, even I agree, to be true to who they are. Not a problem. In transitioning, certain priveleges are automatically granted to someone who is or perceived to be male. Which leads us to point 2.

2. Just because women are strong and can do it all does not mean they are not looked down upon as a gender...gender meaning perceptions in the world of male-female. The Bill of Rights for The USA.......we hold these truths to be self evident....all MEN are created equal. Not all men and women, not all people, all MEN. Does that bother you as a woman?

Does it bother you that women and children were once considered property of the men in their lives much like farm animals? Does it bother you that women have been trying to pass the equal rights amendent for 100 years without success? Does it bother you that women rushed to the factories during WW2 so men could go off and fight and when these men returned the women were expected to go back to their wifely duties because men needed the jobs? Does it bother you that women still receives less pay for doing the same job as a man? Does it both you that women still comprise the bulk of the service workers in this country and males the significantly higher professional and technical ones? Does it bother you to know women in the world are mutilated everyday (cliterectomies and such) by other women because their male dominated culture think women ...well they think many unpleasant things.


It is not about being stronger and more resilent. Even men might attest to that. It is about being seen as an equal to their male counterparts and for the male counterparts to be willing to pass laws and do away with male customs that keep women from achieving this.

Soapbox. Kobi. Down.

[Jett]

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?


Hey Kobi, I think I've had a quip on something similar with you for this before, but again...

I don't know how anyone could in compromise in any way who you are or negate you fight. I don't get that at all, it doesn't make sense. No one can compromise my identity and there's no limit on space here.

As far as where are the lesbians who want butch femme dynamic... just look around, there's tons of them here. I prefer big ol' damn dyke to the word lesbian but I have "identified" as a stone butch for the greater part of my life.

Which to me meant I didn't fit well in ALL lesbian dyke spaces (which are out there), it's not that they were all unwelcoming, but my life, my masculinity, attractions, like and dislikes were synced with others who are in the butch femme culture and those who walked in similar shoes. I find that connection with male ID, female ID and trans folks alike and for one see this as our hard fought for space.

Hell I would be bored - to - tears if we all were alike, with like mind and what-ever.

I say why not "honor your identity" that's hard fought for by being proud in it and making space for others who fight for space too? In the mean time yeah, this particular space seeks to welcoming and open place for all queer identities that feel a connect to the B-F dynamic. I see that as progress.

Metro

[JustJo]

Hi JustJo,

Glad you dropped by.

I will try my best to answer your concerns....

1. the issue is not why did Liam personally transition to male. Of course one transitions, even I agree, to be true to who they are. Not a problem. In transitioning, certain priveleges are automatically granted to someone who is or perceived to be male. Which leads us to point 2.

2. Just because women are strong and can do it all does not mean they are not looked down upon as a gender...gender meaning perceptions in the world of male-female. The Bill of Rights for The USA.......we hold these truths to be self evident....all MEN are created equal. Not all men and women, not all people, all MEN. Does that bother you as a woman?

Does it bother you that women and children were once considered property of the men in their lives much like farm animals? Does it bother you that women have been trying to pass the equal rights amendent for 100 years without success? Does it bother you that women rushed to the factories during WW2 so men could go off and fight and when these men returned the women were expected to go back to their wifely duties because men needed the jobs? Does it bother you that women still receives less pay for doing the same job as a man? Does it both you that women still comprise the bulk of the service workers in this country and males the significantly higher professional and technical ones? Does it bother you to know women in the world are mutilated everyday (cliterectomies and such) by other women because their male dominated culture think women ...well they think many unpleasant things.


It is not about being stronger and more resilent. Even men might attest to that. It is about being seen as an equal to their male counterparts and for the male counterparts to be willing to pass laws and do away with male customs that keep women from achieving this.

Soapbox. Kobi. Down.

Hi Kobi,

I don't feel like you're on a soapbox...I feel like you're stating your mind and your heart, and I'm always in favor of that.

To the other points...yes....ALL of that bothers me. I'm 48 years old...and it frustrates me beyond all description that the ERA never passed, and everyone seems to have let it all fall by the wayside.

It bothers me that I had to go back to college for 4 years to get an MBA so that I could make the same "decent" living that a whole lot of men can make with a high school diploma.

It bothers me that while women are gaining with regard to pay equity, we are still nowhere close...and probably won't be in my working lifetime.

Lots of things bother me. Racism bothers me. Sexism bothers me. People talking to me like I'm an idiot bothers me. People who drive slow in the left lane bother me. What we're doing to our environment bothers me.

Here's the other thing though. I have to live in the world every day. If I rant at everything that bothers me every day, then I will literally die. My health can't handle that.

I value peace. I value compromise. I value getting along with others as much as possible. I value speaking my own truth and letting others speak their own too.

I don't hate men. That's an interesting position for me. I have never, in my lifetime, been able to count on a single male person for anything. I was raised by a single mother. My grandfather was a child molester that I had to defend my 4 year old cousin from when I was 16. I was gang raped at 14. I have been ripped off, lied to, molested, raped, used, belittled, humiliated, coerced and disregarded - by men.

Here's my other reality. I am the mother of a son, and I live in a world that is composed of men as well as women.

I will speak my truth, live my life and push my own agenda as far as I can, but I choose to do it without trampling over others as much as I possibly can. That doesn't mean I'm not angry. It doesn't mean I don't see injustice.

Here's what I also believe. Change ...REAL change...is slow. Very slow. That sucks, but it's reality. My son doesn't believe the crap about women being "less than" that his father and grandfather believe. In large part, that's because of who I am and how I live.

I honestly don't believe that I will see equality and the end to misogyny in my lifetime. That's a shame. However, I will do my part by living as an example of a strong, resilient, capable woman...and I will raise a son that is one step closer.

That's where I come from. It's different than where you come from, or from most (or maybe all) of the others who have posted here. I think we all have to do it in our own way. It doesn't mean that my way is more valid than yours...or vice versa. :rrose:

[Corkey]

Kobi, I'm really sorry if my gender ID triggers something for you. That said, I'm here I'm Queer and I'm not going anywhere. I belong here just as you do and as any other ID does. As far as privilege goes, I have none, not unless someone decides to give it to me, and that just doesn't happen, not in My life and not in my experience.
To whit, last night we go to our GLBT news letter folding party. We walk in the door, my wife first and I hear "OHHH here are more lesb.....fade whisper....Oh!" Yea because I am TG Male ID'd I get that disapproving look from those in our community who for fuck sake should be ally's and who judge without getting to know someone.
Then to top off the night we meet another couple who have just moved to the area, and they don't blink when the pronouns get tossed out there. They accepted me for me, because we accepted them for them. We even exchanged phone numbers and my wife felt comfortable enough to be around them, she's an introvert who has a keen sense of comfort level :i.e. drama llamas and nutzies.
So what it all boils down to is , there are asshats every where, in all shapes, sizes, and ID's. Judge not lest ye be judged!

[Kobi]

QUOTE=Medusa;116167]Responding in a darker red this time :)



Medusa,


[
I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I see what you are saying but I didnt understand why you asked where your zone was when I feel like this entire website is a zone for lesbians. This is a Queer website encompassing all of the spectrum and ways of being Queer. Lesbian fits there with equal and accessible space.


I think where you and I are misunderstanding each other is that I personally do not define "Lesbian" as a gender identity. I *do* define Butch and Femme as a gender identity. Hence, the Zones for each *gender* identity to commune with one another.
If you identify as a Butch Lesbian or a Femme Lesbian, one of those Zones should work for you. See what I'm saying?
I see exactly what you are saying. You are saying I must fit my identity into what you predetermined were my choices based on your perception of what my choices should be. After all, a butch is a butch is a butch. That is sexist, homophobic and misandriatic.


I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

Oooh, look harder! :) There are a lot of Lesbian-identified Butches and Femmes here. I do think that a lot of people on this site define "Lesbian" as a political identity and not a gender identity. Not all, mind you, but at least several people that I have talked to and seen write about it at length. If you want to see visible Lesbians, look at anything that I write, or anything that anyone else who identifies in any way as a Lesbian writes.
I don't necessarily identify as a Lesbian first or even in the same way as you; it's not my gender identity but I do embrace some of the politics that make up "Lesbian" as I see it.

I dont see many visible lesbians. I will look harder but I see a reluctance of lesbians to come forth.
I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

It can but it can also mean that a Female who has transitioned to Male who is now known as a Transman has chosen to hang on to their identity as a Lesbian.
A transman who transition only to retain his identity as a lesbian? Doesnt that defeat the purpose of transitioning?

And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

I think that in most cases, "Lesbian" still does presuppose a gender of female. If in most cases, lesbian still presupposes a gender of female, why are you trying to tell me to fit myself into a femme, butch or trans or queer gender? That doesnt make sense.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

That happens here. Women develop themselves as women. Women develop themselves as Butches, Femmes, and sometimes Trans people.
Agreed, all persons at any given time are works in progress.

I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

This might be the root of it. The mistrust of "all things male" can and does translate into a mistrust of all things Trans and all things male-identified. It summarily categorizes as "male" people who are often NOT summarily male and who most definitely do not have a summarily male experience.

You misunderstood me. I am not addressing the experience a male summarily might have or not. I am addressing how male privelege, whether is is appreciated or not, is a given. Sexism and misogyny can not be ignored whether it comes from a male perspective or a female perspective.
[

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

I don't think it would detract from Femme. At least not mine. I don't see how identifying as Femme could ever be sexist since it is the very heart of embracing the feminine and Queering it up in fucking amazing ways. If someone asked me to find a male counterpart to it, I would be at a loss since Femme doesn't need anything male to exist. It's a standalone identity. Even if it fucks other women. Even if it fucks men.

You misunderstood. I said we deconstruct femme. Femme doesnt exist anymore. There is no femme as the very heart of feminine. Gone. Poof. Doesnt exist.
We need to reconceptualize the entire thing and add a masculine/male component in order to recognize your male counterpart. It is no longer the heart of feminine, it is a merge of female/male. YOU as a gender cease to exist, replaced with something more acceptable to a broader group of ids.

Femme doesnt need anything male to exist? And here I thought someone might see me as a separatist. But lesbian needs something male to exist?Whats good for the goose is good for the gander yes?
[/QUOTE]


[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

[Kobi]

Hi Jo,

You might be surprised that I agree with a lot that you say. I am 54. I am tired of being a freakin activist in my personal and public and professional life. I've fought all the battles I really want to fight. But, If I dont speak to the sexism and misogyny now and then as a reminder to people that it hasnt gone away, I am implicitly or explicitly agreeing to be a willing participant in my own victimization. It sucks the big one.

And, I dont hate men per se. I have brothers and nephews and male friends. I love them even when they are being shitheads. I am very cautious with them and suspicious of their motives.

Women being good role models for the men/males in their lives is a terrific tribute to all women. And sometimes we do accomplish more on a more to one basis because we change hearts. Changing a heart lasts generations.
You must be very proud of your son as he is of you.

I doubt we will see equality or the end of all the isms in my lifetime either.

Thanks for sharing.



Hi Kobi,

I don't feel like you're on a soapbox...I feel like you're stating your mind and your heart, and I'm always in favor of that.

To the other points...yes....ALL of that bothers me. I'm 48 years old...and it frustrates me beyond all description that the ERA never passed, and everyone seems to have let it all fall by the wayside.

It bothers me that I had to go back to college for 4 years to get an MBA so that I could make the same "decent" living that a whole lot of men can make with a high school diploma.

It bothers me that while women are gaining with regard to pay equity, we are still nowhere close...and probably won't be in my working lifetime.

Lots of things bother me. Racism bothers me. Sexism bothers me. People talking to me like I'm an idiot bothers me. People who drive slow in the left lane bother me. What we're doing to our environment bothers me.

Here's the other thing though. I have to live in the world every day. If I rant at everything that bothers me every day, then I will literally die. My health can't handle that.

I value peace. I value compromise. I value getting along with others as much as possible. I value speaking my own truth and letting others speak their own too.

I don't hate men. That's an interesting position for me. I have never, in my lifetime, been able to count on a single male person for anything. I was raised by a single mother. My grandfather was a child molester that I had to defend my 4 year old cousin from when I was 16. I was gang raped at 14. I have been ripped off, lied to, molested, raped, used, belittled, humiliated, coerced and disregarded - by men.

Here's my other reality. I am the mother of a son, and I live in a world that is composed of men as well as women.

I will speak my truth, live my life and push my own agenda as far as I can, but I choose to do it without trampling over others as much as I possibly can. That doesn't mean I'm not angry. It doesn't mean I don't see injustice.

Here's what I also believe. Change ...REAL change...is slow. Very slow. That sucks, but it's reality. My son doesn't believe the crap about women being "less than" that his father and grandfather believe. In large part, that's because of who I am and how I live.

I honestly don't believe that I will see equality and the end to misogyny in my lifetime. That's a shame. However, I will do my part by living as an example of a strong, resilient, capable woman...and I will raise a son that is one step closer.

That's where I come from. It's different than where you come from, or from most (or maybe all) of the others who have posted here. I think we all have to do it in our own way. It doesn't mean that my way is more valid than yours...or vice versa. :rrose:

[Kobi]

I've read your various replies a couple of times and there is quite a bit that I don't understand. I picked this quote because it confuses me the most.

Please don't take this as me trying to silence you or tell you that you don't belong here because both would be wrong. This is simply me questioning for clarification.

The name of the site makes it pretty clear what it's all about. If you are not any of things the site caters to, then why join the site?

If I pulled this out of context or just completely read it wrong, please let me know!

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

[Corkey]

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

Oh btw, the "I" is inter-sexed, or shouldn't they be here either? Me being sarcastic.

[Kobi]

Corkey,

Thanks for responding. I dont know if you have followed the thread from where it started this morning. I just want to be clear that people understand I am not trying to diss, bash, or judge any id. I am trying to understand something that has not been in my frame of reference to see if this is a place I belong.

Sometimes it is hard to see that someone is not on the same page as another. I am trying to catch up. I try and ask questions or pose things that help me to learn something or clarify something. Maybe someone else will learn something too. I dunno. Maybe.

And I never expected you or anyone else to go anywhere. LOL. There are, I am gathering aside from many ids, many frames of reference and many ideas. Is cool. You take the hat, try it on, see if it fits.

And I wasnt trying to be offensive tho some might think I was. Sometimes it is easier to just get it out there rather than beat around the bush.

Anyway, thanks for your input and yes Linus told me about intersexed.



Kobi, I'm really sorry if my gender ID triggers something for you. That said, I'm here I'm Queer and I'm not going anywhere. I belong here just as you do and as any other ID does. As far as privilege goes, I have none, not unless someone decides to give it to me, and that just doesn't happen, not in My life and not in my experience.
To whit, last night we go to our GLBT news letter folding party. We walk in the door, my wife first and I hear "OHHH here are more lesb.....fade whisper....Oh!" Yea because I am TG Male ID'd I get that disapproving look from those in our community who for fuck sake should be ally's and who judge without getting to know someone.
Then to top off the night we meet another couple who have just moved to the area, and they don't blink when the pronouns get tossed out there. They accepted me for me, because we accepted them for them. We even exchanged phone numbers and my wife felt comfortable enough to be around them, she's an introvert who has a keen sense of comfort level :i.e. drama llamas and nutzies.
So what it all boils down to is , there are asshats every where, in all shapes, sizes, and ID's. Judge not lest ye be judged!

[Corkey]

Corkey,

Thanks for responding. I dont know if you have followed the thread from where it started this morning. I just want to be clear that people understand I am not trying to diss, bash, or judge any id. I am trying to understand something that has not been in my frame of reference to see if this is a place I belong.

Sometimes it is hard to see that someone is not on the same page as another. I am trying to catch up. I try and ask questions or pose things that help me to learn something or clarify something. Maybe someone else will learn something too. I dunno. Maybe.

And I never expected you or anyone else to go anywhere. LOL. There are, I am gathering aside from many ids, many frames of reference and many ideas. Is cool. You take the hat, try it on, see if it fits.

And I wasnt trying to be offensive tho some might think I was. Sometimes it is easier to just get it out there rather than beat around the bush.

Anyway, thanks for your input and yes Linus told me about intersexed.



Kobi, I don't know how to get this across to you, You belong here, just like everyone else who claims a LGBTIQ gender marker.

[Stoney]

WOW ..If I wanted to really stir the pot I could throw in some of my feminist, stomp the patriarchal society,secret man- hatin' semi-separatist attitude in all this but some how I have a feeling it just wouldnt fly...

I dont know about all of you but I dont really want to easily fit into a group. I want MY personal views recognized , I dont want to compromise any thing about who I am, Hell Im half way or better though with creating that person. I aint cuttin' off my corners so I can fit into that hole.
I have been living this life the longest and have the most invested in it. How can anyone tell me how Im supposed to feel and be more educated than me about me?.
Ill argue with a chauvinist till the bitter end if they wanna go.... male female, doesn't matter, it is the mentality not the body or the vehicle that person's soul rides around in.
If I dont verbally kick their ass... I will graciously thank them for the learning experience.
Seriously ,I would thank them either way. Interaction with others, finding a place of belonging is all good stuff as long as you arent swimming around in a humongous school, in uniform, only going where the head fish moves, ( hell who is the head fish anyway???

In my LIFE I'm the head fish, If people wanna follow me or not whatever, Ill take responsibility for where my path leads, whether I end up there all alone or with a bunch of fish followin me there. how many do or do not... means nothing to me.

I wanted to make a comment on a post by adorable about the cinco de mayo thing and her gf.

now.......I dont completely agree that this was dismissing of her identity.

Dumb ignorance maybe but malicious intention no.

To wish some one a happy May 5th is not a ruthless act or even an insult, it was a wish for a good day...was it not... why read in so deep wtf?'

remind me of George Carlin the cashier says" have a NICE day'.. he says" hey fuck you asshole... what if I wanna have a shitty day!!!!!"




I have found in this life that there are a lot of dummies in this world.There are folks that lack social grace, there are people that say dumb things when they are uncomfortable, In an honest attempt to do the exact opposte of dissmiss them, but to somehow acknowledge their difference in a good way, or they are curious.

kids say things like" hey mom is that a boy or a girl.... or look mom that man is wearing a dress , what do we do?? go up and slap the parents? the kid? or go home and quickly take off the dress and never go out in public again..... or maybe organize a rally against parents that dont teach their children proper ways to ignore or avoid differences in politically correct manner........

naw... hell no, it would be easier to take offense, make a comment, scare the kid, and the parent, instilling fear when there could have been simple tolerance and a smile. not an assumption that it was an insult or judgment call.

We need to get thicker skin if we expect to rough the storm of becoming the person we aspire to be. Being a non conformist is the most fightening we face as humans..because we seek relationships and love and to rock the boat might decrease our chances... we think.
then there is the obvious rude comments and actions of assholes for the sake of being assholes,

By the same token, Are ya really gonna let it fuck up your whole day? some dumb fuck head telling you how they think you should live or be or love... ???

On an assumption.......WE all assume , how else could we reason... or relate, or interpret without basing what we see on what we know to be true...? I mean ya could, but it's better to just laugh it off , or use it as an opportunity to educate the person or a chance to make a joke. why draw that kind of energy, most people dont really get it anyways and never will.

hell I weighed about 500 lbs.... people said all kinds of rude shit to me,did mean rude shit to me, ignored and made fun of, whisked their children away from me , treated me like I was mentally incompetent, an idiot and even a freak and the fact I was a woman AND a dyke didnt help much either....Ya think?

Yeah Im a feminist, I reject the attitude of the patriarchal society, I embrace "MY" womanhood I will fight and strive to empower myself my sisters . Does that mean I cant honor your world? no It doesnt ... but it may be that I dont understand it ....or just plain dont or cant relate to it,because it is not for me doesnt make it wrong,

But For me to jumble all men into a pile ( although tempting) JK..... makes me no better informed than the ignorant people who (if I so choose to entertain their uneducated opinion of me) insult and belittle or..choose to devalue my womanhood.

There are spaces fo r" women' only for those women that feel the need for that commonality or empowerment, I love womyns community my feminine SPIRIT is nurtured by that energy....maybe yours is not.... but truely before we can jump on others perception of us we need to find how it is we feel about ourselves. How much of what others think about you makes you who you are?, are you what people define you as or are you really the person you think you are?. Who's runnin this circus?

It aint the 8th clown out of the car, thats probably a given.

We need to lighten up on each other, no matter what, we are all on our own journey...every word you say effects my journey in the way I determine consciously or unconsciously...and the same is for all of us.

I choose to not be a clown.... but that doesn't mean a circus doesn't need a clown.
there are plenty of people to fill that position though out this life.....the story of me: and of you.

The circus really wouldnt be as much fun with out them would it?

I'm gonna be a feminist and activist for the long haul, dont think it will change , I will argue with men who wish to argue and debate with me probably till my spirit soars from this body . Im not dismissing anyone when I say I have always felt their were two kinds of people in this world....women and their children.

Cant say that isnt true, now can we.
peace all!
Stoney

[Kobi]

June,

Thanks. I am feeling heard and this is good. I still dont get some stuff but thats cool too. Am trying to be open minded and absorb what I can, filter things thru my own prejudices, preferences, and beliefs.

AARP says I need to do mentality tasks to starve off dementia. Today was good for a few more years. LOL.









Hi, Kobi --

I wanted to say this out loud to you, and to everyone who is participating so thoughtfully and being patient with each other even though this is a frustrating and very difficult topic.

I *know* you. And when I say that, I mean, I know (and love) many women like you. Women who have spent decades fighting for a place at the table, in the Boardroom, in the bedroom. Women who gave up a lot so that in my middle 30's, I could waltz out into the world as a Lesbian/Femme/Queer person and be reasonably sure I wasn't going to lose my job, my house and my child.

I want you to know, I am hearing you and seeing you hanging in there to figure this out. If you are looking for women born women only space, this will not be the place for you. If you are looking for a smart, eclectic, infuriating, fascinating online community, then yeah, welcome home.

We (many of us) do forget that it has been traditionally the Lesbians and the Feminists who took on the often thankless and more often low paid jobs in the social services arena to make the world safer and more just for other women and the children. Men have also done this work, but by and large, those cogs have been turned by women. I understand that someone entering into a community such as this could feel cast aside in some regards, but perhaps, if you can think of us as your liberated, unruly, sarcastic progeny, many of us out there doing out own form of activism based on the principles you and others laid as the foundation, it will help you to feel more at ease.

--June

[Medusa]

Kobi,

I wanted to address the quote above as well as a quote from your last post to me.

Kobi said: "I see exactly what you are saying. You are saying I must fit my identity into what you predetermined were my choices based on your perception of what my choices should be. After all, a butch is a butch is a butch. That is sexist, homophobic and misandriatic. "


I wasn't actually saying that your identity needed to fit into a box. I was saying that this website is ButchFemmePlanet.com. It caters to Lesbians, Queers, Genderfuckers, and other colorful people who identify as Butch, Femme, Trans, Stud, Diva, etc. etc. etc.
You said you identify as a Butch - that means that you belong here.
When you were asking about a "Lesbian" Zone, I was trying to illustrate the thought process behind why I built the zones that I did when we first built the site.
Having a Lesbian zone is redundant to me. This IS a website for Lesbians who identify as Butch, Femme, Stud, Diva, etc, but nevertheless, we added a zone for people who identify as Lesbian. It's there, it's open, and people are posting there.

This website caters to a special set of people. Unlike Lesbianation.com or pinksofa.com or planetsappho.com or grrl2grrl.com or any of the other websites that cater specifically to Lesbian women in a women-only space, we cater specifically to a Butch and Femme populace that includes a plethora of identities. (and this is where male-identified Butches, boi-identified Femmes, Trans men, Trans women, and genderfuckers come in)

We are never going to be a website only for women and women-identified people. Those websites already exist. We are never going to just ignore, marginalize, or throw away the large percentage of our membership who identify as males, who live as males, who have lived as males, or who live as something they haven't yet defined but that may one day be male in order to feel "safe". I don't think we have to do that. I think that to be safe, we need to learn to help each other, learn to understand each other, learn to embrace each other.
The throwing away? Not so much.

We are never going to do that. We are also never going to do shitty things like have events in places that male-identified people and Transpeople aren't welcome to. That includes MichFest (unless their policy has changed) and Olivia cruises.
Because guess what? All of the people who come here are valued, loved, and needed for this to be the awesome place that it is. That includes you, Kobi. :)


I also wanted to address this:
The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

I just wanted to say that it doesn't matter who I define Butch or how Dylan defines Butch or how Adele defines Butch or how UofMfan defines Butch. It matters how YOU define it for yourself, and guess what? However you define it is correct. Just like UofMfan's way of defining it is correct. Just like Jackhammer's way of defining it is correct.

This has been a tough conversation but I think this is always worth it. I like understanding new people and I like being expanded by how other people think. That's hot.

m

[Gayla]

Kobi -

I am almost 44. I've been out for a very long time. I've been involved in lesbian, feminist, separatist communities/politics/activism since I was, essentially, a child. I "get" your experiences in ways that many people may not because mine have been very similar. I've fought for "women space". I've marched in the streets, spoken at rallies, been published numerous times, had my name smeared in many different places. I embraced my lesbian identity with everything I had including my Birkenstocks, labrys earring and Chris Williamson albums. I cried the day I found out Holly Near was sleeping with a man and I cheered the day kd lang hit the cover of GQ. Up until I moved to Seattle, every job I've had was in some way seen as a professional queer. I've worked in non-profits, worked in a feminist bookstore, managed a gay/lesbian bookstore, owned a gay bar, and worked as a therapist in an inpatient chemical dependency treatment center that only served gay & lesbian clients.

So yeah, I "get" it and we come from places of common reference points.

Based on those reference points, I guess I'm still not really understanding what it is about the site that makes you question whether you belong here. There's never been a time in my life where I wasn't butch, even when it was seen as a negative in the lesbian-feminist community. It's as much a part of me as my big ears and the mole on my left shoulder. So when I see an online community that is called "Butch Femme Planet", there is no doubt that this is a place for me.

Yes, there is a huge amount of diversity in this community. There are people here that are just like me and a bunch that are very different. Knowing that other people don't share my same definitions, beliefs and values about "what butch is" doesn't diminish my place in the community or in any way make me see myself as other or not belonging.

You've talked about a lot of different things, and I know you've mentioned a few different things in different contexts, but I really am curious about what types of things, to you and others that feel the same way, lead you to think you don't belong here?

[Daryn]

ugh.. edited because of accidentally duplication ... next post is it

[Daryn]

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

Medusa, my dear, you (and Jack) are wonderful..... and thanks for your commitment to inclusivity.

[Daryn]

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

WOW. It sounds like you think there is only one definition of butch on this site and I bet there are well more than half a dozen. It sounds like you want one definition of butch that matches how you see yourself as butch. It's never been that way for as long as I can remember and that's more than 35 years of being OUT.

[Stoney]

WOW. It sounds like you think there is only one definition of butch on this site and I bet there are well more than half a dozen. It sounds like you want one definition of butch that matches how you see yourself as butch. It's never been that way for as long as I can remember and that's more than 35 years of being OUT.


Well it sounds to me that Kobi is merely trying to open her mind to the differences and take them in. because someone relates to something particular doesn't mean they shun the rest.

I see Kobi's posts as a person who is trying to understand differences and more ( forgive me Kobi )up to the times .

I don't believe that just stating the things about herself and her feeling deserve an accusation of exclusion.

In all honesty and I have said this before back ten years ago when I joined B-F ( the other) I honestly found it looking for womyn only site.
In my personal life, I did not think too much about identity, in fact I knew next to nothing about trans gender people. this doesn't mean I don't care about them, or disapprove, or think they shouldn't be on butch-femme website, I just never really gave it much thought. I have been wrapped up into being a lesbian and a feminist for a long time now so that is the history I studied and what I related to.

I have been reading this thread and I have to say we defend what we know and we reach to learn more,, that is what I see Kobi doing here.
Trying to understand , Trying to expand her understanding while holding on to her root beliefs,
Every one has there own experience in this life, I entertain the thoughts of things that resonate with me...that help make-up who I am. I am learning everyday that there are all different kinds of people besides me.

It's like never studying about giraffes, but you have done major research on zebras. I can only relate to giraffes according to what I know about Zebra's and what the two may or may not have in common.

It doesn't mean I don't like giraffes, it doesn't mean I feel threatened by giraffes, it doesn't mean I don't want giraffes in the Zoo cause I never knew anything about giraffes......

Because I don't know anything about giraffes I may ask people about giraffes, I may ask the giraffeabout himself,what he likes or doesnt, what he wants.... how to care for him.


He might just get pissed off at me and tell me I must not like him, and dont want him around , claim I only like one Zebra's because I know more about zebras.... and accuse me of being prejudice against girraffes
When I try to explain I only had time to learn about Zebras because I have been around only zebras and it wasnt that I never cared about girrafes it was that I had to make time for Zebras because I live my life among Zebras.

Eventually if the girrafes go on long enough about how careless and selfish I am for not knowing how to care for them, I might just leave the whole damn Zoo,

I never heard much about giraffes but apparently they seem to get pissed off and accusatory if you havent read the manual before you engage with them.


I want to expand what I know about people, because trans-gendering hasnt interested me, I know little about it, that doesnt me mean I am not supportive, It means I have been busy learning and creating the life that directly relates to me. I try to know a little about alot of things and alot about a few things......



I think most of us are like that.
lack of interest does not equal
bias or dislike.


Peace to everyone......

Stoney

[Hack]

These are just some observations I am making about the discourse in this thread.

It seems that some folks, the admin of this site included, view this site as an umbrella for a very broad spectrum of people who identify as part of the femme/butch/trans/queer/lesbian/gay/inter-sexed/and even questioning community. I think I fall in to this particular group. Maybe it's my lifelong work in politics and always trying to build a bigger tent of acceptance in many different communities across society that makes me proud to be able to traverse in this online community and generally feel acceptance and tolerance -- more so than I do in my offline life, frankly.

It seems that there are some folks on this site, such as Kobi, whom I admire so much for speaking her truth and for putting it out there. These folks, it seems, want to find that comfortable space in a larger community and who have very specific things they are seeking in that space.

Truth be told, I think this site serves both. What I find comforting about this space is that it is run by two of the more open-minded and accepting people I know. There are no rules of identity here. Which is one of the things I like. But I do think there are rules related to respecting each other's i.d. I've not always found that to be the case in online communities similar to this one. And there are some online communities that don't speak to diversity at all, and I could not be a member of those communities because of that.

I am saddened that some people expressed they don't feel comfortable in some "zones" on this site. I tend to walk between two zones here -- butch and trans. I cannot fully embrace one as much as I embrace the other because for personal and career reasons I choose not to fully transition. Nonetheless, I have not been derided or made to feel uncomfortable by any FTM on this site.

I do believe there is room for all on this site. I think we can work together as a community to self-police issues such as respect, acceptance and making people feel welcomed and valued. I feel the site owners already do a fine job of that, and it is incumbent upon all of us to share in that mission.

Jake

[Toughy]

Thank you explaining this but I still dont get it. This approach is all new to me, I dont know the vernacular and what it means. I have been out of the loop for 20 years. Someone says third gender and Im like there is a third gender?

And Im not trying to be a bitch, Im trying to understand something and everytime I think I got a piece of it, I realize I dont.

When you say butch, femme, and trans are the gender categories that this focuses on and the rest of us are lumped into queer....I have a problem with that. You can categorize your site anyway you want lol, Im just trying to put the pieces together so I understand what ya'll are talking about. I dont know if I fit here. Im trying to figure that out.

The larger community everyone seems to point to is the GLBTIQ one. So gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans, I dont know what I is and Queer. I dont see femme or butch here. I do see lesbian and trans.

Femmes are a gender? Butches are a gender? And lesbians are what? Other? Miscellaneous?

It is your site, you can define it anyway you like. But to me, to say butch, femme, trans are the genders we deal with and the rest of you are a fruit salad seems sexist and misogynistic and misandriatic (I think thats right), and homophobic to me. It doesnt feel like those of us in the fruit salad are seen on an equal par with the rest of the identities that we are supposed to respect, accept, tolerate, and maybe honor.

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.

On the one hand, I hear we need to be excepting of all id's, male, female, butch, femme, male id, female id etc but we decided to categorize you so you cant easily self identify even tho we want you to but it doesnt fit the plan so dont ask questions cuz it doesnt make sense but that the way it is.

Again, I am trying to understand something that is not making sense to me. This is not computing and maybe it wasnt meant. Maybe I just dont belong here. Cuz no one is gonna tell me I, as a lesbian, must fit myself into preconceived notions. That is homophobic.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

I will be 58yrs old the end of June. I feel you on this. About 10 years ago (after my 16 yr marriage broke up) I entered the butch/femme community again.........online at the dash site. I have always been butch and always been woman and always been a lesbian/dyke.

Frankly I was horrified and baffled and not understanding what had happened to 'my community'.....Male pronouns as default for butches....transmen who identified as straight.....butches who id'd as male....the list goes on.

It was a struggle at first. I had to learn new things. The first being gender as something other than biological sex of female and male.

I got my ass chewed up and spit out more times than I can count. I stuck it out and listened and learned. It was damn hard to open my mind and understand a new way of talking about butch/femme.

One thing I did find to be crucially important. In this new world there seemed to be this sense of butch=man. I wanted young butches coming out to know they could still be a woman and be butch. It was ok and they are not less than. There was a time on the dash site when I was the ONLY butch who insisted on female pronouns.

Now we have this new home on the Planet. Here things are truly different. There is a lesbian zone....it came about because it was asked for. The butch zone has room for all us butches, not just the butch brothers. There is a pronoun place in your profile so each us can use respectful pronouns. There is transparency and accountability on the part of Medusa and Jack. This Planet is growing and changing for the better. This Planet is growing and changing for the better.

Kobi my sister....read with an open mind. I know the knee jerk reactions you are having. I had them and once in a while still have them. What I have learned and gained from listening and learning is a broader community and a greater sense of understanding of my fellow queers. My butch brothers have as much right to be here as my butch sisters. Transmen and Transwomen belong here. They do not dilute my community, they enrich it.

The presence of a broad spectrum of gender identity gives folks coming out a place where they can grow and learn about who they might be. It was a struggle to understand this and I still have trouble on occasion.

Feel free to PM me at anytime and I am glad to talk to you about this. Like I said........I feel ya........I've been there.

[Kobi]

June

I dont think people were refusing to continue to be engaged. I, personally, was exhausted LOL and had much new information to sift through.

I learned a lot yesterday about how the community has evolved over the years, and remember conversations I had with pioneers before me and how much easier I had it because of the fights they fought.

And, I remembered that we all hear things and speak from unique places and frames of reference that can change at any given moment i.e. am is something I am hearing being filtered thru my woman frame of reference or my lesbian frame or reference or my activist frame of reference or whatever. Communication is a very complex and intricate beast.

And I began seeing people here in a different light. Some who have rubbed me the wrong way in the past, I began to see with a different set of eyes.

Like you, I saw a lot of personal honesty being brought forth and a lot of respect being given for that honesty.

Evolution is a funny thing whether it be on a personal, societal, or worldwide basis. We go two steps forward, one back, on and on, over and over until we stop and look back and see how each step of the way brought us to the reality we have today and is leading us to create the reality of tomorrow.

Sometimes I wonder, when I am sitting in the sunroom of the butch-femme-trans nursing home, what I will be seeing as the reality of the day and what the process of how we got there would look like.

Maybe this is a collective breath break while we mull the direction in which the conversation will proceed. I have faith that it will.

[SassyLeo]

I went to bed really sad and frustrated last night because I see people stubbornly refusing to engage further because their way isn't the agreed upon "Right Way". As if we all don't get to choose our own paths to identity. As though they must all be the same path and the destination must be reached at the same time or everything is just hopeless and will "Never Change".

I saw two really significant changes occur yesterday. One was Kobi asking questions and being listened to and answered in really thoughtful, respectful ways, the other was a post made by Gayla late last night where s/he acknowleged that s/he has been guilty of defaulting to he/him for Butches, why s/he thought that happened and how even though change was hard, all of these conversations had made her think, and s/he was committed to change.

And also, I saw people breaking down their personal facades and disclosing behaviors that they personally thought of as masculine/feminine that they did or didn't do. Frankly, I was humbled by that.

Sure, we can rail against the fucking patriarchy and society at large for automatically assigning us "Jobs" according to our birth sex. Girls play with dolls, boys play with trucks, masculine = male, feminine = female. It's easy to act disdainful and dismissive of people who have bought into that, much easier than trying to understand why people, Queer people do that. How so many of us are trying to do the best we can to fit in, find love and get laid.

And how do we do that? We try on different clothes, attitudes and personalities till we find a combination that fits us. One of the things I rail about all the time is how Femme is personal, it is not one way. It is not, for all of us, high heels, fishnets, cleavage and lipstick. I'm sorry, it's just not. For some Femme's, it is, but that is not the only way to "Do" Femme. Some Femme's don't wear makeup. Some Butches (Hi, Met!) do wear eyeliner. Met's eyeliner, which I have witnessed up close and personal, does not make her less Butch to me. It's fucking eyeliner, and that does not define her Butch-ness. But I know, there are people on this site, Butch folks who will say "Oh, I would never wear makeup of any kind!" As if the act of doing that could erase them or make them less than because they percieve it to be feminine, and they think for them, feminine is bad. And yeah, that's kind of infuriating. In the same way (for me) it's infuriating when I see Butch and Trans folks taking on what I think are the very worst of the masculine traits i.e intense objectification of women based on appearances, excessive swagger and bravado or the denial of what I think of as natural human traits. Boys don't cry? Bullshit.

Having a name like Rose (Hi, Massive!) instead of Rodney, does not make someone less Butch. And yet, how many Butch folks, both male and female ID'd will "Butch up" their names? So, are there degrees of "Buying into it"? Who gets to decide how far is too far, how much makeup is too much or too little?

I have some thoughts, sparked by Kobi yesterday on Feminism, and how far we stray from our collective roots -- How we can forget that part of the reason we can all be here either having this discussion, or walking away from it, is because of the women (and men) who have been in the trenches for decades fighting for social justice so that even though it's still really hard and a huge struggle to own our identities, it's easier for us than it was for them.

I'm a Feminist and a Femme. I understand many of us are stuck in a binary hell based on assumptions that this=this, but I am not willing to throw people or communities away because not everyone thinks the way I do. I don't get that part at all. I think it's worth it, even if there are only small changes.

Goddammit June-y :watereyes: :bigcry:

And thank you :flowers:

[Greyson]

I never ran across this thread until tonight. Yes, I have felt at times as if there were "gender wars" going on among various I.D.'s in the LGBTQI community. I am sure at times I have said things that were offensive to some. It was not necessarily intentional. It may have been my pure ignorance.

Also there have been many times I felt "erased." There seems to be this assumption that most butches come from an identity of being a woman. That is not the case for all butches. I am a butch that has always felt different from the women lesbians. Most of my adult life has been surrounded with and supported by lesbians, femmes and some butches.

My "identity" in many areas has evolved through out my lifetime. Not necessarily a notion that my ID now is superior to my previous ID's. Different and more accurate for me.

I no longer will go into "women identified closed spaces." Not because I do not know and acknowlege I was born in a female body, was see by most of the world and socalized as a masculine woman for the greater part of my life. I stay out of those spaces because I believe I would not be welcome now. I am not saying it is wrong. I am just giving my perspective. I do not see myself as male. I do see myself as masculine and a mix of genders. I really no longer believe there are only two genders, the binary. Some do, I don't.

I love, respect and admire women very much. My heros are women of all genders. Yes, I see butch as a gender. I am in part a woman but not entirely. Bare with me please. I am processing, figuring it all out, again. I do strive for the larger welcomig tent.

[Reader]

Bleh. I hunted around for the best place to post this, searched and all that crap. Now, I'm bored and this absurd hurricane is giving me a wicked headache. Here it is:

This seemed like the best thread to raise this issue. I do not mean to offend anyone's sensibilities, but the words "c*ck" and "c*nt" are words that I use affirmatively. I use the "*" symbol here so as not to offend.

Butch c*ck is something so very personal. It must have a billion differing meanings, and implications across the community.

Sometimes, it is so super visceral for me, so real, a pseudo-phantom appendage. I never sense b*lls per se, it is just the c*ck sensation. When I am turned on, I feel it spring to life. A sudden volitile stiffening, rising throughout me, expanding inside and outside of me. It seeks release, attention, acknowledgement and sometimes asks, no, demands, satisfaction of one sort or another.

Yet, I do not ID as male at all. Not in the sense that I think most male IDed folks here mean the term.

What is it like for other butches out there? Might you share your experiences?

[DapperButch]

Bleh. I hunted around for the best place to post this, searched and all that crap. Now, I'm bored and this absurd hurricane is giving me a wicked headache. Here it is:

This seemed like the best thread to raise this issue. I do not mean to offend anyone's sensibilities, but the words "c*ck" and "c*nt" are words that I use affirmatively. I use the "*" symbol here so as not to offend.

Butch c*ck is something so very personal. It must have a billion differing meanings, and implications across the community.

Sometimes, it is so super visceral for me, so real, a pseudo-phantom appendage. I never sense b*lls per se, it is just the c*ck sensation. When I am turned on, I feel it spring to life. A sudden volitile stiffening, rising throughout me, expanding inside and outside of me. It seeks release, attention, acknowledgement and sometimes asks, no, demands, satisfaction of one sort or another.

Yet, I do not ID as male at all. Not in the sense that I think most male IDed folks here mean the term.

What is it like for other butches out there? Might you share your experiences?



Hey, Hunter. I think this is a good topic. One that has come up before in this community, but I am not sure that it has been discussed on this specific site.

I think that the butch zone would be a great place for this topic. How about starting a thread over there? You can just cut/paste part of the above. I think it will get a lot more traffic there.

ETA: I meant start a thread on it in the butch zone (I didn't realize this particular thread was in the butch zone). I think this topic warrants its own thread.

[Reader]

Hey, Hunter. I think this is a good topic. One that has come up before in this community, but I am not sure that it has been discussed on this specific site.

I think that the butch zone would be a great place for this topic. How about starting a thread over there? You can just cut/paste part of the above. I think it will get a lot more traffic there.

ETA: I meant start a thread on it in the butch zone (I didn't realize this particular thread was in the butch zone). I think this topic warrants its own thread.

Done. Thanks, Dapper!

[Reader]

Hey, Hunter. I think this is a good topic. One that has come up before in this community, but I am not sure that it has been discussed on this specific site.

I think that the butch zone would be a great place for this topic. How about starting a thread over there? You can just cut/paste part of the above. I think it will get a lot more traffic there.

ETA: I meant start a thread on it in the butch zone (I didn't realize this particular thread was in the butch zone). I think this topic warrants its own thread.

Dapper-when you say "ETA" above, what does that mean? Effective targeted advertising? Just curious. (I would have left you a note on your page but I can't...sorry to derail)

[DapperButch]

Dapper-when you say "ETA" above, what does that mean? Effective targeted advertising? Just curious. (I would have left you a note on your page but I can't...sorry to derail)

"effective targeted advertising" - ha ha

Edited to announce. Edited to add.