Gender Wars - A Femme's Perspective

[Medusa]

As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?


I'll be back in just a bit --

[julieisafemme]

As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?


I'll be back in just a bit --

I just wanted to say thank you very much for starting this thread. I have been thinking a lot about all of this lately. I am impressed that you always seem to have the pulse of the community. I will be back and answer some of the questions later.

[SuperFemme]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

Often times I wonder if I am unwittingly complicit.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

No. I feel like there is a hierarchy but not a "war'.

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I have seen it happen, yes. In the Femme that brags about getting rid of her Butches "hanes her way" underwear and replacing it with boxers to the Femmes that see all Butches as masculine.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

Yes.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I feel like it is both. It feels like there is not room for everyone sometimes. Do I feel that it is a construct of sexism and misogyny? You bet. I also feel like Misandry is not absent from the mix.

I'll be back in just a bit --

my answers in bold.

[betenoire]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?


No. What I do see is a lot of people (and I'm not just talking about the masculines, here) who have a lack of respect for the "spaces" of people who ID differently than they do. I would not go into a thread that was set aside for Lesbians/Dykes and talk about my experience as a "Bisexual/Pansexual". Because I feel that it would be off-topic and inappropriate.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

Not a war, no. I do on occasion see people trying to have a "Femme-off" in which they try to prove that they are more Femme than the next Femme, or that their way of Femme is the correct way of being Femme. What I tend to chalk that up to is that the person initiating that stupid dialogue probably has no real-time community, ergo only sees/knows/experiences other Femmes on a pretty surface level...and simply doesn't know better.

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

No.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have a human identity. Unless you're talking pronouns, in which case it's "she" or "bitch, please".

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

No. What I do think is that the adage "if you expect to find oppression everywhere...you will" (something like that) is at work here. I see people presuming the worst intentions of others and getting their feelings hurt when in reality the person who has hurt their feelings -really- has done nothing hurtful.

[princessbelle]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?
No
* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?
No
* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
attack?
ummmm, no, I do feel the uneasinest that has started with all these discussions but I do also appreciate "almost all" of the adult conversations that have come from them. It has been very interesting to me, as a femme, to see/read the responses and then the responses to the responses. It certainly makes me stop and think about the wordage that I use and makes me determined to be more careful.
* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not? No, not at all.....seems to be more of the masculine ID's IDs that has been the hot topic.
* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

contribute? Well, as I've said in the other threads...I like to LISTEN to what my sig other or friend for that matter WANTS to be called and address them in that manner. Seems easy enough. In the threads? I reallly try HARD to not step on toes. Sometimes it happens anyway...but with the posts I've read over the past few days, I'm learning to be even more careful. BTW, it's not that I'm afraid to step on toes at all, it's just not my style.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
Totally feminine, totally woman. No ifs ands or buts to ME that is.
* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I believe it all starts with the internal and once that internal has been fed into the mind and heart long enough, it then proclaims to the outside world what the ID is and feels worthy to be called. I really think some of us took a long time and watched/read/talked long and hard until we found a true gender identity that suited us all individually. With that said, of course we feel strong about how we see ourselves and just want others to see us that way as well. The problems come in when you have this strong inner ID and someone comes along and seems to want to change it.

Don't matter what others think or say or desire or exhibit or intrude on IDs ..what matters is that the internal fixation of your journey has been made and completed and YOU know who you are.....that is the most important ID of all. Just knowing who you are. Titles are a dime a dozen as are opinions. Learning is what I hope to do here, and not judge. Learning, in the end is really all that life is about...IMO

[Random]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

Sometimes. Sometimes it seems as if I (I want to say we, but I can't talk for anyone else)have to walk on eggshells when it comes to butch/trans ID... as if it is so fragile, as if the outside world has been so hard that they have to be coddled, put first, their wants and needs come before anyone else...
Sometimes it feels like there is no right way... If you go from a female/woman default, then you have the male id'd screaming that they exist as well.. If you add male or woman, then you have people who feel butch is a gender up in arms because they are just butch and don't feel they are being respresented..
Sometimes.. to me.. for me.. it feels like I am in the middle of a group of children all screaming for attention, for me to tell them they are special and they are seen...

Sometimes I just close out the window and go away... Because in life I have to deal with guys coming before me... At the job, at the store, hell in line at freaking mcd's... They are busy, they have important stuff to do, they need to have their needs met first... Because sometimes it feel like that here too.. Male is all inportant and we need to move over and make room for them where ever they want that room to be..

So sometimes I feel that way... other times I don't...

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

No... I personaly think that in every gender/race/religion there are broad spectums of every personality trait... I don't believe one is better than the other, that one is special... It simply is what you are.. you can't make one the standard.. (This one was hard for me.. It took a lot of undoing to stop seeing myself as less than because I was told I wasn't as femme as I should be.. But I am.. I am the only kind of femme I can be.. just as you are the only kind of femme you can be..)

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
For me? No.. I don't think there is any agenda.. Sometimes I think it's leak over from the world.. In the world, a mans place is any place that he says it is.. Sometimes I think this mind set colors the way that conversations develope..

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

I don't.. Maybe I don't see it, but I've never felt that from another femme.. All my femmie insecurities came from butches telling me I was less than because I wasn't this or that...

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

No.. I don't think I have that power.. But most of the butches/Tguys that I know have done lots of work on who they are and are pretty secure in them selves before we even meet..

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
I have a feminine identity.. I don't know what it would feel like to have a masculine identity

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

Yes, I do... My partner and I were talking about this last night.. That society conditions women to put the wants and needs of men first.. (we were talking history) and how that translates to butch/femme... I was talking about how when women introduce themseves, they Id who their husband is and how long they have been married, how many children they have, and last they talk about them selves... I brought up the point that when femmes have a thread for themselves, they talk about their partners, or butches...
QUOTE]

[amiyesiam]

[QUOTE=Medusa;115551]As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

As a human, if and when I feel animosity against anyone, it is based on the content of their character, nothing else.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

I don't see myself as being at war with anyone. War is violence. I don't do violence

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

What I see is butches who have had to be "out there" in order to be who they are. A group who has pretty much taken shit all their lives in order to just live life. Be it the female id's hearing you just wanna be men, which they don't want to be, or the male id's being told they are women, which they aren't. Butches are who they are period.
I don't think anyone has an agenda, I think people want to be seen for who they are. I for one see butches for who they are.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

I would prepose that if femmes id both male and female we would see the same thing going on with femmes. No matter how we see our selves as femme, we all use the pronoun her/she etc. There might be convos about feeling femme enough though

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I think butches/trans form their own identity based on who they are, not on what femmes think/say. I sure as hell don't decide who I am or how to be based on what butches think. I do think that some femmes feel a need to defend their butches (god knows they take a lot of crap in the real world)

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have a human identity. That identity is made up of a hella lota traits that fall all over the place on the feminine/masculine continumum.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

What I see is people saying there is a gender war. I see groups trying to be seen. Groups that seem to think that that if one group is seen the other isn't. So often I have to go back and read posts cause my filters tend to see people as sane and nice, I don't see the bull shit person A is calling person B on. After the shit starts flying both sides get ugly and you cant miss the bull.
I just don't understand why we have to function in a win/lose, us/or them mentality.
Some days I just want to say GROW THE FUCK UP it is 2010, there is enough for everyone. We can have win/win, me, you, us, them. We can see everyone. We can assume best case not worst case.



and finally if THEY come for the sexual deviants, they will be coming for ALL OF US, and in that moment we will all be on the same side, defending each other. We have way to much freedom (that we take for granted) when we can argue with the very people we would defend.


I'll be back in just a bit -

[Heart]

* Do you feel ... that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying FUCK about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart (naked, bold, and in big font)

ETA: This is also why I suggest to the admins that they add the word "sexist" to TOS #5 and 5a

[The_Lady_Snow]

As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

NO

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

Sometimes, not out in the real world mostly here, I experience a lot of eeewies, looked down on, my morals in question, definitely judgment for being as sexual as I am. It comes from both gender spectrums, femme's- questioning my ethics because of my sexual freedom, or the whole *flippin' butches*, the they have to hold their man back because I happen to have slaves that I want their man I could go on.. Butches of any ID, trans guys, guys, I get the whole they stupid me when speaking to me by refering to me as sweetie or honey or silly or talked to like I am 4, my physical strength, mental and emotional is not femme, lack of dresses and looking stepford, I can go on with this too.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No, what I see is a lot of people not taking time to listen to one another.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

Sometimes it's more underhanded though when it starts if that makes sense.

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? Hell yes, it happens in circles I experience off line with some members of this realm and it happens outside as well, I have repeatedly watched and corrected myself how a femme addresses a butch, and have watched the femme flips her hand in dismissal because why would Sandy want to be called Paul if they don't identify as trans cause well you are only a girl no matter how you look or want to identify. I see a lot of it happening here, with the expectations and then jesus forbid a break up happens then they refer to them as her, or him or whatever or use their girl name or god forbid if they want to be fucked then they are a waste and no real butch would want that, I could go on and on with this as well H
How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

above answer can be applied to this as well

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

Yes

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Sometimes it feels like it

Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

Yes.

Yes, I think our shit carries over and it's applied here or tried to, and yuck yuck to the slings of misandry. I ain't perfect I am sure I have some fucked up views and sexist thoughts, I do however know not to come in and type of bunch of my shit and not expect a call out, matter of fact I do expect it I would call someone out.





I'll be back in just a bit --


I hope that is sufficient, thanks for the thread Medusa!

[SuperFemme]

I guess a Femmes perspective isn't valuable unless it is given in space shared by Butches. Until it is.

[Gemme]

I will refer my answers to Adele's answers in her first post, because they are very nearly identical to what I was thinking.

Get out of my brain, beautiful, I need it for work tomorrow.

[SuperFemme]

I will refer my answers to Adele's answers in her first post, because they are very nearly identical to what I was thinking.

Get out of my brain, beautiful, I need it for work tomorrow.

I'll be gentle when reading your mind. I promise. you won't feel a thing.:stiletto:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have to request or at least ask..

Can we keep our femme stuff in the femme thread and not drag it out for butch validation

please?

:computer2:

[Martina]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No, i do not.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?


No.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?


No. i see defensiveness and fear and a lot of people seeing things only through their own lens.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?


No.

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?


i do. i think we form identities in part to attract the kind of people we want to attract.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?


i don't think of it that way, but feminine.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

No, i do not think there is a gender war. Yes, sexism and misogyny are behind a lot of the group dynamics that are taking place.

[Heart]

I have to request or at least ask..

Can we keep our femme stuff in the femme thread and not drag it out for butch validation

please?

I'm not sure this & SF's above post are directed at me -- but if they are -- that's not at all what I was doing when I posted in the butch thread. See my response there. If you care to.

*sigh*

I'm gonna say right here in this safe respected femme zone that I feel really defeated. And fucking sad. So sad, I'm actually crying. WTH? I'm so done now. I'm really fucking done.

Thanks.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm not sure this & SF's above post are directed at me -- but if they are -- that's not at all what I was doing when I posted in the butch thread. See my response there. If you care to.

*sigh*

I'm gonna say right here in this safe respected femme zone that I feel really defeated. And fucking sad. So sad, I'm actually crying. WTH? I'm so done now. I'm really fucking done.

Thanks.

My intent was not to make you cry, it's a simple request to it feels oogy to have things dragged from here to a butch zone, it's dismissive almost make sense?

[SuperFemme]

Heart? I am sorry you are crying and I hope you know that is not something anyone would strive for.

I totally *get* how important a conversation about misogyny and sexism is, and how important it is to you personally. I do.

I am not trying to negate that in any way, but I would beg of you to realize that while those things are crucial to this conversation they are not the only thing this is about.

I've had my own cry today after somebody took the title of an article I wrote for another site and brought it over here in a somewhat convoluted manner.

So if it matters, I, Me, Adele feel a little more comfortable having this discussion in the manner that Medusa framed it here. From a Femme perspective. Because at the end of the day, a Femme perspective (or rather MY Femme perspective) is the only perspective I can address without speculation.

[Medusa]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No, but I have.
(insert gasps of horror from the peanut gallery here)
I have learned, perhaps through age or gaining more wisdom, that it's foolishly ignorant to lump entire groups of people together as if one speaks for all and vice versa.
In the way that racism, sexism, sizeism, homophobia, etc. work by ignorance, fear, or outright prejudices taking root where critical thought should reside, I have to raise my hand high here and plead a big, fat "Guilty". I'd be lying my ass off if I said that I hadn't made the comment, "I am so sick of logging into the Dash site and seeing that every single thread on the front page is about Trans issues, WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE BUTCHES AND FEMMMMMEEESSSSSS???" (and insert some dramatic chest pounding here please because I do so love the hystrionics). I'd be lying if I said that I didn't at that time translate that to an erasure of my own Butch/Femme culture and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think that "Trans people were taking over."
I said those things. I thought those things. It's the truth.
In excavating the "Why" behind all of that, I found a lot of fear and triggery stuff in my own personal orbit. The fear of being erased, the fear of being marginalized, the fear of having a binary that I didn't want in my orbit shoved front and center into the very orbit I was trying to "protect".
I was reacting to the fear by feeling "attacked". The fact of the matter was that the abundance of Trans threads on the front page of a website did not "erase" me as a Femme. One did not negate the other.
At the time, not seeing threads that related directly to me or the Butch people that I choose to partner with felt as if my world was getting smaller and smaller. Why? I had to ask myself-- WAS my world getting smaller and smaller? WAS I being erased? WAS I being homogenized without my consent?
Looking back on that thought process now, I see where I was basing the existence of mySELF on how other people exist. (Trans people in that example). The value of mySELF on the value of other people. The validity of my way of being and identity on how many visual cues I had on the front page of a website. Fear. Ignorance. Transphobia.
The "but what about MEEEEEEE?" is as loud in my head when *I* feel it as it is on the screen when I see other people doing it.

Now, the above feelings didnt happen in a vacuum for me. We DO live in a very fucked up world where women are seen as less than and devalued and disrespected on a daily fucking basis. So guess what? I personalized the political. Because it IS personal. Except when it isnt.
I accept that I have to claim MY space in this world without infringing on, negating, or disrespecting someone else's space, otherwise I'm no better than the greater social construct that disrespects me.
That whole "becoming part of the problem" thing when I act out on the micro-cause, hoping to affect the macro.


* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

I don't see my gender ID or personal self feeling at war with other Femme ID's. I would boil it down to a matter of security with my identity and an acceptance that someone else's way of Femme doesn't really have squat to do with mine.
I will use Leah Lakshmi Piepzna Samarasinha's whole "Femme Shark" identity as my case in point. Leah has quite a following with her Femme Shark identity and a lot of other amazing, powerful Femmes who identify as Femme Sharks. I do not identify as a Femme Shark, nor do I feel threatened by the presence of Femme Sharks, nor do I feel the need to investigate/parse/tease out/question/infiltrate/dismiss/invalidate anyone who chooses to identify as a Femme Shark.

As far as being complicit in a war between Butch or Trans IDs, I don't want to be held responsible for the way someone else identifies but I fully recognize that we all impact each other whether we want to or not.
I think that there have been times when "The Universal Femme" has been held responsible for "good Butches transitioning because they have been pushed toward maleness". Or other times when "The Universal Femme" (per example in another thread) is responsible for the pronoun default to "he" for all Butches.
This, quite frankly, pisses me off. It's scapegoating to hold an entire group of people, some of whom who may have never EVER defaulted to "he" for any Butch, responsible for Butch people feeling marginalized. I believe that shit should be called it as it happens, when it happens, and to the person who does it and not left to fester and boil over like a shitty stew until "The Universal Femme" is now to blame for the entire fuckery.
I also believe that if we are talking specifically about this website or the dash site that "whoever" (my Gotdayum hat is OFF so yes, Im going there) is in charge has a fucking RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that things like someone saying that "Femmes like to be handled by Transmen because they are stronger than Butches" is checked hard, swiftly, and responsibly. Because THAT shit? Left unchecked? IS DAMAGING. Not only to the Butch that it erases, invalidates, and disrespects, but also to the Femme that it erases, invalidates, and disrespects, but also to the other Transmen that it erases, invalidates, and disrespects, AND to the community at large that it disrespects.



* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

An agenda? No.
What I *do* see happening is a LOT of personalization and reflecting back to the self even when someone else is looking at their own reflection in the community mirror. I see people *feeling* attacked and reacting to it in ways that are sometimes healthy and sometimes not healthy. I see lines being drawn, fences being built, flags being staked, surveys being done, voices being drowned out, etc.
I see exchanges being made-- "Im going to have to have some of your space so I can have my own" without those words being said out loud.
I see something shitty going on around only being able to honor something if something else is dishonored.


* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

No. I never have actually. I have certainly felt the ridiculous trappings of "Well, Im a better Femme than you because I don't even OWN a pair of flats!" but I usually read that as insecurity or ignorance.
If the person saying it is at all intelligent, it pisses me of for them to stoop down to that "IM A DIAMOND PLATINUM FORMICA CRYSTAL FEMME AND YOUUUUUUUU ARE NOT!" (implied Nanny Nanny Boo Boo here) because it feels a little simple and well, I expect better than that from smart people.
I actually see Femmes doing a better job of managing ourselves around respecting each other's way of being Femme. Im sure Im going to catch some shit for that statement but it's how I feel. I recognize that Femmes often do not have the same gender filters that Butches and Transmen have because I think most Femmes do identify as female or woman but I've seen Femmes talk openly about feeling like a boi inside or feeling masculine and I don't recall seeing other Femmes go into the conversation with anything about how the Femme who id'd as a boi was invalidating/marginalizing/disrespecting the Femme who didnt.


* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?


As a whole, no, I don't think that Femmes have the power to influence the identity formation of Butches or Transmen. On a micro level? On an individual level? HELL. YES.
I've seen it, I've heard it, I've felt it. It's my truth.
I'll have to go back to my irritation about someone being comfortable and secure with themselves here. People , to me, are responsible for *themselves* and thus, must take responsibility for their own identity and gender formation regardless of who they are dating. If the person (of any gender) is secure/informed/comfortable with themselves, there is NOTHING that I or "The Universal Femme" should be able to say or do to make that person change how they are existing. If *they* change how they are existing to fit someone else's idea of existing, THEY are responsible for that.


* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have both and embrace them both. Both my feminine self and masculine self (which I identify as Dyke) are equally valuable, authentic, and valid. So are yours, whoever you are.


* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?


I don't know if I would go so far as to call it a Gender War but I definitely see something happening. Fencing, dividing, borders, etc. I am reading animosity from some women and female identified Butches around their treatment on not only this website but other websites and the world at large. I am reading animosity from people who are tired of going round and round about this issue. I am reading animosity from people who wish we would look at being at war or the oil spill in the Gulf as more important than the naval-gazing and self-identifying.

I am *feeling* irritated with the circular jerking off of our collective gender organs where the fucking money shot never gets cleaned up. Instead we are all stepping in and around each other's goo and I am just weary with the whole "never getting anywhere" part of it.

I DO think that the world is chock full of sexism and misogyny and that yes, we MUST work to dismantle it, but NOT by using the tool of misandry to do it and NOT at the expense of male or masculine identified people.
We cannot "fix" sexism by singing "I am Woman" at the top of our lungs in our cubicles at work (believe me, I tried). All that does is make us look like "militant feminists who really arent interested in anything but our own agendas". We cannot force people to examine their internal misogyny by using anger or waggling our fingers in their faces. We can BE angry. We can BE pissed off. We can BE sick of it. We can BE thinking that they are a mouth-breathing idiot, but I have found that people have to do their own work and be WILLING to do their own work.
The willingness? We cant do shit about that. Some people are just fine being ignorant dipshits.


I have a LOT more to say here but I need a Diet Coke (smirk at Linus) BBIAB.

[Nat]

oh goodie, I love questionaires

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

nope

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

There have been times when I have seen some grumblings regarding different descriptions of femmes ("high femme" comes to mind) and I've also seen some grumblings about femmes feeling negated by others if they are stone bottoms or some femmes feeling negated because of an expectation that stone bottom-femmes are somehow femmier than the rest of us. But I haven't seen anything heated regarding this lately and I don't think it amounts to a "war" anyway. Have we ironed all that out already?

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I'm on the fence with this one. I think people sometimes embark on a gender exploration when they feel safe to do so, and part of feeling safe for a lot of people is to feel like you are loved and will be loved and accepted no matter what. I think also if a person feels their genuine ID is unpopular amongst femmes (or whomever a person is attracted to), that can make a person feel not so good.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I feel I'm both feminine and masculine. I'm also bigender, and my boy is more feminine than my girl if anything.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

No, I really don't think there's a gender war, but I feel like there really isn't a gender peace either.

I feel like sexist and misogynist society is at work at large and within me, and the best I can do is try to know it in myself and "be the change I want to see in the world." I also think within and without our community, we are potentially dealing with homophobia and transphobia too - and sometimes these different elements can work to obfuscate what's really going on in any conversation.

[apretty]

my responses in green:



* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

i don't feel animosity--i do feel protective of female-identified butches because keeping the *she* in this world has become a subversive act, and i think that's super ballsy.

and i'm suspect of the multitudes of young butches that see transitioning as the answer.


and i feel that male-identified/presenting peoples are privileged and i would love if that were acknowledged more often.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

i'm not at war with anyone but i don't get stonefemme as a 'gender' nor do i get the trans-sensual femme type person. (--i've dated trans-people, it didn't make me trans-sensual and i've dated stonebutches, again--it didn't make me stonefemme...) but, people can be/ do what they want.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

i probably could read closer and come to a conclusion about that--but i think we've all got our agendas and some people are louder than others.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

again, i don't see a war. i see that society positions women against each other and so unless you've done some work in this area and continue to work pretty hard at not being suspicious of your sisters, you're going to be a product of our society (which sucks, but it is what it is).

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

yes. the femme that wants a hetero-normative dynamic is going to subtly (or not) encourage her partner to transition.

and there's blanket statements about 'all butches' and examples on this site of femmes he-ing butches, regardless of whether they're HE.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

feminine

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

i think there's lots of conversations to be had. some small, some big and really i don't know why anyone has to be so *fatalistic* about a bunch of people having a discussion on gender.

perhaps i'm not getting the war-stuff, but in the end i believe we all know that there's power/strength and safety in numbers--and despite how dreadfully annoying i might find a person's communication style, it behooves us to get along.

[Medusa]

:i don't feel animosity--i do feel protective of female-identified butches because keeping the *she* in this world has become a subversive act, and i think that's super ballsy


YES! I swear not even 2 days ago I looked at Jackhammer in the middle of a conversation about identities and said that claiming the "she" that I am and that she is in our own separate ways is fucking subversive. (and that's hot)
I see some parallels about it having been a subversive act on the dash site to demand and claim female when things were particularly hostile toward "all things female" there.(my read)


:and i'm suspect of the multitudes of young butches that see transitioning as the answer.
and i feel that male-identified/presenting peoples are privileged and i would love if that were acknowledged more often.
.

I'm crazy glad you brought this up. I feel like it's a touchy subject about the movement of more young butches toward a Trans identity because I do see layers of "the answer to my "I dont feel ok" problem within that youth community sometimes. And no, it's not really about ageism for me - It is about the youth of anyone's gender identity and how I relate it to what I see as an evolution process for all of us.
Sometimes I have wondered if it is about internal misogyny, about power dynamics, about wanting to gain privilege, about the subversive and intentional "othering" of the self that says "SEEE! SEEEEEE! I really AM a unique and special butterfly!!"
I also recognize that I don't have the right to question any individual's journey to themself, even if it doesn't make sense to me. I would like to understand it though and I hope I get to ask (respectful) questions to make that happen.

:again, i don't see a war. i see that society positions women against each other and so unless you've done some work in this area and continue to work pretty hard at not being suspicious of your sisters, you're going to be a product of our society (which sucks, but it is what it is).
.

Word. I think this is what Heart has touched on all over the place (not said in a snarky way, but a way that says I recognize she has been advocating for this vehemently and with utter commendable conviction).
I see misogyny dictating that not only are women "less than" men, but that women also must be "less than" each other. Because that whole construct of "You must be this type of woman with x, y, and z characteristics to be considered valid, desireable, acceptable, and any other number of "unattainable" virtues" is at work *within* our own female communities. Hello? Look at the fractioning with the female/male identities in the Butch communities and the "Diamond-encrusted best-Femme-in-the-Universe EWWWWWWWwouldnevereatpussybecauseitsickybutpleaseo penmydoorbecauseImahelplesswiddlekitten" shit that tries to play out in the Femme community.
That shit is not just about people trying to "gender top" one another. It's the ingrained messages that the world feeds us from DAY ONE about who we are supposed to be and how we are supposed to get there.
I'm guilty as FUCK of buying into it in my lifetime - being the "mean girl" who had to automatically hate all amazing women because I wasn't as "insert whatever" as them. Those messages and my own inability to look inward at WHY and question if any of that shit was real ROBBED me of many possibly good friendships with other women because I was too busy being jealous, suspecting them of wanting to fuck my girlfriend, competing, and feeling insecure in the glow of their amazingness. I felt incredibly empowered the minute I said, "No More" to myself and it changed my world for the better.
I'm a better friend because of that, a better partner, and a happier person because I examined and questioned and evolved and am still willing to do more to shed that fucking nasty ass snakeskin of bullshit that the world throws on us the minute we are born if it means I get to have more Junes and Arwens and Divas and Michelleys and Snows and Adeles and Prettys and NJFemmes and Nats and Betes and Irishes in my life.

:perhaps i'm not getting the war-stuff, but in the end i believe we all know that there's power/strength and safety in numbers--and despite how dreadfully annoying i might find a person's communication style, it behooves us to get along.
.

You just nailed the crux of what has been on my mind for the last few days. I have become painfully irritated with some of the squealing "Me-ism" that I have seen in parts of this site but I do examine that as a personal communication style that bothers me no matter what the person might be talking about. That's a personal filter for me, doesn't mean that what the person is saying isn't valid...it just means I have to work a little harder to hear them through the noise that is bothering me.


:rockband:

[MsMerrick]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?
No

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?
No, I sidestep constantly
* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?No

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?
The only "war" I see, seems to be on behalf of some Femme's Butch counterparts, and i find that sad...
* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?
We all contribute to each others sense of who we are, how can we not ? That called influence and involvement, friendship.
* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
My identity is Femme. I have many characteristics, which some divide up and attribute to masculine and/or feminine. I don't.
* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that to deny the influence of a larger society , which I do see as misogynistic & sexist, would be naive. But, I think its influence is not as clear cut, as some seem to think

As a general statement, I feel that there is a ton of "blame the Femme's " going on, which both angers me, and amuses me, because I see that, as a manifestation of that oft referenced sexism and misogyny
Now I will read everyone else's answers..

[Medusa]

As a general statement, I feel that there is a ton of "blame the Femme's " going on, which both angers me, and amuses me, because I see that, as a manifestation of that oft referenced sexism and misogyny
Now I will read everyone else's answers..


YES! Women being the root of all evil in the world and all - Quick! Someone get an apple and offer it to the first Butch you see! Oooh, and then dress seductively and stand on the rocky shores and lure in the poor unsuspecting sailors! AND THEN, when you're done with that, take away the virtual pee-pee's of other people by merely talking about you're ability to change a tire, open your own damn door, build your own house, clean your own gutters, or (GASP) form an opinion without checking in with anyone else first!!

All personal amusement aside, I am also wondering if there aren't some swirlings of an enforced (expected?) nurturing from Femmes with other people's identities.

Good stuff.

[MsMerrick]

YES! Women being the root of all evil in the world and all - Quick! Someone get an apple and offer it to the first Butch you see! Oooh, and then dress seductively and stand on the rocky shores and lure in the poor unsuspecting sailors! AND THEN, when you're done with that, take away the virtual pee-pee's of other people by merely talking about you're ability to change a tire, open your own damn door, build your own house, clean your own gutters, or (GASP) form an opinion without checking in with anyone else first!!

All personal amusement aside, I am also wondering if there aren't some swirlings of an enforced (expected?) nurturing from Femmes with other people's identities.

Good stuff.

Yeppers, you got my reference perfectly thanks !:rrose:

[SuperFemme]

All personal amusement aside, I am also wondering if there aren't some swirlings of an enforced (expected?) nurturing from Femmes with other people's identities.

Good stuff.


I cringe every time I see someone crossing the fine line between having feeling about an identity and speaking *for* those identities. I don't want any one speaking about how I do Femme, particularly a Butch or Trans person. How would they know? Conversely, I don't want to speak FOR somebody's identity.

I hope that makes sense.

[Medusa]

I cringe every time I see someone crossing the fine line between having feeling about an identity and speaking *for* those identities. I don't want any one speaking about how I do Femme, particularly a Butch or Trans person. How would they know? Conversely, I don't want to speak FOR somebody's identity.

I hope that makes sense.


Totally does. I have seen Femmes (talking about Femmes specifically not because I think we are the only guilty party but because this thread is for us to deconstruct ourselves) play "nurturer" and "Mother" in threads by explaining away bad behavior or trying to "pat pat soothe soothe" the entire conversation.
Another hand raised in "Guilty" for me too at times.
I think that from the time we are born we are told we are the "nurtures" of the world, the "fixers", that it is our job to make everything ok for everyone.
Some of us shed that because we're sick of it but I do see some people embracing it.

[SuperFemme]

Totally does. I have seen Femmes (talking about Femmes specifically not because I think we are the only guilty party but because this thread is for us to deconstruct ourselves) play "nurturer" and "Mother" in threads by explaining away bad behavior or trying to "pat pat soothe soothe" the entire conversation.
Another hand raised in "Guilty" for me too at times.
I think that from the time we are born we are told we are the "nurtures" of the world, the "fixers", that it is our job to make everything ok for everyone.
Some of us shed that because we're sick of it but I do see some people embracing it.

I think that there is a reward from our Butch counterparts for being the nurturer. Which makes it feel to me like a Femme in Shining Armor kind of thing. But at the end of they day, is it really helping? Because I think it succeeds only in further alienating Femmess from each other and taking away the voices of Butches.

I have been guilty of this too btw. Don't get me wrong, it is so easy to fall into. Especially when you are in love and tend to take on the weight of your beloveds world on your shoulders. I have to do a lot of work not to do that. :dimbulb:

[adorable]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?
No

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?
No, I sidestep constantly
* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?No

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?
The only "war" I see, seems to be on behalf of some Femme's Butch counterparts, and i find that sad...
* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?
We all contribute to each others sense of who we are, how can we not ? That called influence and involvement, friendship.
* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
My identity is Femme. I have many characteristics, which some divide up and attribute to masculine and/or feminine. I don't.
* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that to deny the influence of a larger society , which I do see as misogynistic & sexist, would be naive. But, I think its influence is not as clear cut, as some seem to think

As a general statement, I feel that there is a ton of "blame the Femme's " going on, which both angers me, and amuses me, because I see that, as a manifestation of that oft referenced sexism and misogyny
Now I will read everyone else's answers..

YES! Women being the root of all evil in the world and all - Quick! Someone get an apple and offer it to the first Butch you see! Oooh, and then dress seductively and stand on the rocky shores and lure in the poor unsuspecting sailors! AND THEN, when you're done with that, take away the virtual pee-pee's of other people by merely talking about you're ability to change a tire, open your own damn door, build your own house, clean your own gutters, or (GASP) form an opinion without checking in with anyone else first!!

All personal amusement aside, I am also wondering if there aren't some swirlings of an enforced (expected?) nurturing from Femmes with other people's identities.

Good stuff.

I certainly get the expectations of society at large and all IDs in general put on me as a feminine woman, as a mother, as a bitch, as a boss....

I see the blame the femme thing of which Merrick speaks.

And not only do I see it - I see it as something that people have used as a unifier. I think that makes sense.

The specific example was in a thread - and honestly my head is about to explode and I can't remember where - but butches were having the "default to he" argument and the one thing that the female ID and the male ID seemed to agree on (well for a page anyway) was that it wasn't them - it was the femme's who were "guilty" of it....and as I was reading it I rememeber thinking "as if that is a femme thing really???" One femme agreed, but not in an analytical way - more of in a "yeah, we're bad" kinda way....yanno...Giggle. No one disputed this "fact." Yet I had SEEN lots and lots of people do it, regardless of ID.

That to me is misogyny - where femmes are expected to hold their own and everyone else's own. The weight put on them for all problems regardless of who's problems they happen to be. By having someone to blame they can use it to bring them closer, never sorting out the shit from the soap.....they really all could just get along if femmes would just not screw it up for them. It reads to me as them sighing, shaking their collective heads and saying "fucking women" to me.

[Sachita]

*
* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
attack?
ummmm, no, I do feel the uneasinest that has started with all these discussions but I do also appreciate "almost all" of the adult conversations that have come from them. It has been very interesting to me, as a femme, to see/read the responses and then the responses to the responses. It certainly makes me stop and think about the wordage that I use and makes me determined to be more careful.


Words and labels. As much as we hate them we use them. I thought I had it figured out and I don't. The last thing I want to be is "careful" and feel like I'm walking on egg shells because my "words" hold a different meaning then yours or my needs are based on my current perception and not a political correct agenda.

Honestly... butch, boi, him, he, hym, FTM, trans, whatever. None of it really matters to me as far as who I would love. I love the contrast to my feminine physicality. I really don't want to try and describe what "kind" of femme I am because I've worked so hard on just being the person I am. This long hair and big ass boobed woman has a strong streak often viewed as masculine and because I'm as capable as a man I'm thought to be less feminine. Go figure! Fuck that!

I find myself feeling bad for the choice of words I use to define my feelings and how I overlooked or misunderstood someone else's feelings. It wasn't intentional. I find myself exiting and retreating out of discussion because I realize I might not know what the fuck I'm talking about or I'm just not into the confrontation I often see here. Some people are into that type of debate and others prefer lighthearted more compassionate dialog.

I'm a woman. For whatever reason I'm not attracted to men that are born as men. Now and then I'll see a hottie but I havent had a relationship with a man since my early early 20's and that was a weird circumstance. For some reason I became attracted to women that looked like boys. The more I explored that I became more and more attracted to masculinity. Hell 10 years ago I would have never considered dating an FTM and that is still a learning thing for me. I'm still trying to figure it all out.

I'm queer and I'm here.

[apretty]

please don't take this as a slight, but because this is in the *femme* zone and you've made it clear in other thread/threads that you do not identify as *femme*--could you speak to the identity-place that you're posting from?

i think it matters. thank you.

I certainly get the expectations of society at large and all IDs in general put on me as a feminine woman, as a mother, as a bitch, as a boss....

I see the blame the femme thing of which Merrick speaks.

[Isadora]

As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?
No.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?
No. My issues are more about cultural appropriation of terms and have some issues with shifting paradigms that redefine language or “borrow” language. This, I believe, is a privilege of aging, to have cultural and multi-generational perspective and to also “own” my point of view. (So we add sexism and ageism to the umbrella.)

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
I see individual agendas and opinions but to attack a whole group, no. I also get really tired of those who “speak for” others in general or in specific.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?
Again, I see differing styles, personalities, opinions and agendas but war, no.


* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?
I believe we all contribute to each other’s identity in some form or another. We are social animals, we learn from our experiences with others no matter what gender. We do not develop in a vacuum.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
I have a “me” identity. My sash husband once said to me, “You confuse me. You have a very femme part of you and a very butch part of you.” At first I was confused then we had a whole discussion about personality and how society deems personality traits “feminine or masculine”. Like being blunt is a masculine trait. Huh?

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?
I do not think in terms of military or war to look at the manifestation of internal locus. I think that sexism and misogyny is part of the umbrella of ism’s that play a part in our society and therefore affect (effect? I always get those confused) every aspect of our lives. Do I lose sleep over it? No. I have worked to fight isms for over 35+ years. As Margaret Mead said, “Instead of being presented with stereotypes by age, sex, color, class, or religion , people must have the opportunity to learn that within each range, some people are loathsome and some are delightful. “ Part of “isms” is to lump people together by relying on stereotypes. If I have issues with people, I deal with the people and do not transfer those issues to an entire gender or community.

[adorable]

please don't take this as a slight, but because this is in the *femme* zone and you've made it clear in other thread/threads that you do not identify as *femme*--could you speak to the identity-place that you're posting from?

i think it matters. thank you.

Wow. I hope you got everything you hoped for out of that.

[Passionaria]

Medusa asked:
* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

:cat:Over the last 10 years (my gay lifetime), I have seen many changing definitions and expressions of gender in our community. I think we define and redefine ourselves more than many groups of people, partly because we are forging uncharted territory, socially, and culturally, as well.

Sitting back and watching the unfolding reminds me of looking into a kaleidoscope, and exploring each possible combination of butch-femme identity, and the interplay that emerges. I have at times wondered if certain B-F websites were someones PHD thesis, it is interesting enough of a process to be one. I love us, for being able to create and recreate ourselves. So, animosity, no. Occasionally, fondly amused at the drama of the process, yes.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

:cat: No, the last thing I want is for us to turn on each other. OUCH. Honestly though, there are some gender concepts that have taken some time for me to understand. As my understanding grows, I have noticed my tastes and attractions seem to be evolving as well. Case in point: I came out as a lesbian ID'd femme, and it took me some serious contemplation and questioning to understand the needs of Stone Butches. Once I got it? I think they are right up there with chocolate ~YUMMY. As a community we are all growing, and our process at times reflects those growing pains.


* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

:cat:I see certain individual people having strong personalities and opinions. Often, not stopping to think if their behavior hurts another. I don't see that as a gender issue, rather, a personality issue.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

:cat:I see certain individual people having strong personalities and opinions and varying levels of tolerance. Often, not stopping to think if their behavior hurts another. I don't see that as a gender issue, rather, a personality issue.


* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

:cat: Yes, I think it is natural to want to please the ones we love. Hopefully within healthy, self identified, boundaries. I know I would stretch my boundaries some, for the one I loved, to give them what they desire. But I can't change the essence of who I am, without betraying self.


* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

:cat: A feminine identity, inspired more by my connection to the Divine Feminine, than any cultural norm.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

:cat: No, I don't, and think it is unhealthy for our community to keep saying there is. I believe we can do better, and that we are worth more than that.I think the real issue is that there are individuals within our community, with varying levels of tolerance, kindness, and communication skills, participating in the process of us defining our gender identities. And It's not cool to be a bully.............

:kissy: Thanks for asking

[apretty]

or, you could just answer the question, claire.


Wow. I hope you got everything you hoped for out of that.

[Nat]

adorable - it confused me too that you said earlier that you are not a femme and now you are speaking from femme perspective. It sounds like you are feminine and queer and a woman but may not id as a femme. Would that be accurate? If so, I'm sure your experiences and insights overlap plenty of femme experiences/insights whether or not you have claimed the ID "femme" for yourself.

[adorable]

adorable - it confused me too that you said earlier that you are not a femme and now you are speaking from femme perspective. It sounds like you are feminine and queer and a woman but may not id as a femme. Would that be accurate? If so, I'm sure your experiences and insights overlap plenty of femme experiences/insights whether or not you have claimed the ID "femme" for yourself.

I can't be for sure (I never am totally for sure on apretty but I think she comes from a good place :) ) but I think she was asking for you to speak from your own gender experience out of a need for clarity and consistency and was not attempting to put you down.

What on earth difference does it make? Femme's post in the butch zone. Everyone posts in the trans zone and so far almost every ID has been in the lesbian zone.

So unless someone finds my post insulting or there is something WRONG with my post - I don't see how the fact that I don't ID as a femme has any bearing on that. And I didn't post from a femme perspective. I agreed with two femme's perspectives. I posted from MY perspective as a woman who lives and breathes just like other women.

But unlike others on here I have been asked to show MY queer card for consistency? Right.

Well since what you are asking for is to me to justify how come *I* can post where I please let me list all the things I can think of that might get me past the gatekeepers.

My GENDER is woman.
MY ID QUEER
I am 5'6" tall.
I have two girls and am a single mother.
I own my own home and have a valid driver's license.
I work full time.
I wear lipstick.
I worked two full time jobs AS a single mother and earned a bachelor's degree in War Crimes.
I don't wear underwear.
I liked to be fucked by mean TGs while I call them daddy.
I also like to fuck mean women who call me daddi.
I drink unsweet Ice Tea
I wear mini skirts occasionally, heels too
I have knocked out a man with an unopened can of diet pepsi
I run a business
I drive an Impala with heated leather seats
I'm fat but sadly not in the right places anymore
I work with LGBT youth in my community
I am a published author
I was passed over for a promotion once because I was a woman



If there is anything else that you need to know for me to be able to post, by all means let me know....

[Nat]

Hmm, perhaps this is a good illustration of gender tensions that can rise up -defensiveness of and possible hostility/"gate-keeping" toward women who don't identify as butch or femme.

The term "femme" and I had to wrestle a lot before we were comfortable with each other, and I did feel more defensive or like the environment was more hostile in some ways back then. It's interesting to see the shoe on the other foot.

I like iced tea too :)

[MsMerrick]

What on earth difference does it make? Femme's post in the butch zone. Everyone posts in the trans zone and so far almost every ID has been in the lesbian zone.

So unless someone finds my post insulting or there is something WRONG with my post - I don't see how the fact that I don't ID as a femme has any bearing on that. And I didn't post from a femme perspective. I agreed with two femme's perspectives. I posted from MY perspective as a woman who lives and breathes just like other women.

But unlike others on here I have been asked to show MY queer card for consistency? Right.

Well since what you are asking for is to me to justify how come *I* can post where I please let me list all the things I can think of that might get me past the gatekeepers.

My GENDER is woman.
MY ID QUEER
I am 5'6" tall.
I have two girls and am a single mother.
I own my own home and have a valid driver's license.
I work full time.
I wear lipstick.
I worked two full time jobs AS a single mother and earned a bachelor's degree in War Crimes.
I don't wear underwear.
I liked to be fucked by mean TGs while I call them daddy.
I also like to fuck mean women who call me daddi.
I drink unsweet Ice Tea
I wear mini skirts occasionally, heels too
I have knocked out a man with an unopened can of diet pepsi
I run a business
I drive an Impala with heated leather seats
I'm fat but sadly not in the right places anymore
I work with LGBT youth in my community
I am a published author
I was passed over for a promotion once because I was a woman



If there is anything else that you need to know for me to be able to post, by all means let me know....

I think you were simply asked to clarify.
Those of us, who do ID as Femme, often spent some time struggling with it.
I would have asked the same, if I had known that you did not. I note, no one asked you NOT to Post, simply asked from what perspective, were you indeed posting. I don't gate keep the word Queer, or the word Femme. Nonetheless, this is a Femme's Perspective Thread, and as such, if you are posting in it and don't identify as Femme, a certain amount of explanation/clarification, seems at the very least..polite, imho, of course ;)
I am also a great fan of Iced Tea, minimally sweetened if at all ; )

[adorable]

I think you were simply asked to clarify.
Those of us, who do ID as Femme, often spent some time struggling with it.
I would have asked the same, if I had known that you did not. I note, no one asked you NOT to Post, simply asked from what perspective, were you indeed posting. I don't gate keep the word Queer, or the word Femme. Nonetheless, this is a Femme's Perspective Thread, and as such, if you are posting in it and don't identify as Femme, a certain amount of explanation/clarification, seems at the very least..polite, imho, of course ;)
I am also a great fan of Iced Tea, minimally sweetened if at all ; )

And yet it's not asked of others who post in other threads to which they don't claim that particular ID?

And it's based on what? If my post had been dismissive, or disrespectful or out of line - ok - I could see that. In fact I HAVE seen that.
Since it wasn't...
Why is this zone, different then other zone's?
Why would you ask me to clarify *IF* you knew that I didn't ID as a femme?
Butch or Femme for me are not genders - I actually don't claim either for myself out of respect for those who do.. regardless - I find it odd that I am asked to clarify who I am in order to post.
Does someone's gender or personal ID change the truth or un-truth in what they say?
If people are going to start reading posts along these lines and people collectively are going to be questioned about who they are so that other people can determine if their post is worthy of consideration - it does take away from the discussion factor...
It also puts those of us in the other category left out of discussions that matter just as much to us as everyone else.

[SassyLeo]

Adorable-

Reading your posts about not ID'ing as Femme has triggered something really huge for me. And this is not specifically directed at you, it just happens that the context of the conversation made me realize...

I feel really fucking protective of "Femme". As in, when I finally figured out that Femme was the right word to use to describe how I feel about ME, it was like the OMG A-ha moment.

And FOR ME, I feel like FEMME is a Queer denominator.

To people in the world, outside my community, I appear as a straight woman. Even though I work with many Queer folk at my job, no one had any idea I was Queer. One woman who is partnered and I have been work-friends with, was shocked when one day I was talking about Erin and used "she". I out myself everyday. And luckily I work for a company which celebrates diversity.

So, for me, FEMME is how I get to differentiate myself, how I say to the world: "I am Queer. I can look however I want, I don't fit in your stereotypes. I may "appear" as what you call a straight woman, but I AM NOT."

I know that not everyone feels the same as I do. I know there are people out there in the world who are like none of us on the site who use this word to describe themselves. However Femme looks to me is different than you and everyone else in the community. And yet, I find it hard to not care if some random straight woman in Missouri calls herself a Femme. It should make no difference to me since she is not connected to my/your Queer world... but it does.

[MsMerrick]

And yet it's not asked of others who post in other threads to which they don't claim that particular ID?

But of course it is.. When someone asks for the butch perspective, and I go and post, although in all honesty I tend to refrain..But let's just say I do.. People do ask why ..
Why is this zone, different then other zone's?
Why would you ask me to clarify *IF* you knew that I didn't ID as a femme?
Butch or Femme for me are not genders - I actually don't claim either for myself out of respect for those who do.. regardless - I find it odd that I am asked to clarify who I am in order to post. Well first of all, I repeat, no on asked you not to post
That has been repeated, nicely several times, and its also very clear in the original post. Why you keep repeating it, I don't know. ;)
But to answer the first part, this zone is no different, the OP, specifically asked for a Femme Perspective,m and that make sit different from other Threads, that don't state that in their Opening Post. But again I say, No One has Asked you, NOT TO POST
ok ?
Does yelling it help ? I prefer not to yell but I also prefer for people to actually read what I said. And I don't like it when people read in something, that wasn't there, nor even thought.


Does someone's gender or personal ID change the truth or un-truth in what they say?

Good grief, a perspective, is a exactly that ! Not a Truth with a capital T. And yes, ones experience, ones identification, all those things color our perspective.
If people are going to start reading posts along these lines and people collectively are going to be questioned about who they are so that other people can determine if their post is worthy of consideration - it does take away from the discussion factor...
It also puts those of us in the other category left out of discussions that matter just as much to us as everyone else.
Yeah well but you see..None of that..actually happened ..
Do you write scripts for faux News or something ?

[adorable]

But of course it is.. When someone asks for the butch perspective, and I go and post, although in all honesty I tend to refrain..But let's just say I do.. People do ask why ..
Well first of all, I repeat, no on asked you not to post
That has been repeated, nicely several times, and its also very clear in the original post. Why you keep repeating it, I don't know. ;)
But to answer the first part, this zone is no different, the OP, specifically asked for a Femme Perspective,m and that make sit different from other Threads, that don't state that in their Opening Post. But again I say, No One has Asked you, NOT TO POST
ok ?
Does yelling it help ? I prefer not to yell but I also prefer for people to actually read what I said. And I don't like it when people read in something, that wasn't there, nor even thought.


Good grief, a perspective, is a exactly that ! Not a Truth with a capital T. And yes, ones experience, ones identification, all those things color our perspective.

Yeah well but you see..None of that..actually happened ..
Do you write scripts for faux News or something ?

LOL! I would never write for faux news....but I have always kind of wanted to write for Anderson Cooper. Admit that he tugged at your heart strings during Katrina....anyway...please do not read my posts as hysteria, but rather with annoyance.

I'm not sure if I've had a change of heart or if it's the drinks...

My post in this thread, I still argue wasn't a perspective but an observation. So to be asked or as I see it as being called out specifically because I don't ID as femme is a double standard that I haven't found in other threads. Perhaps it's there....in the thread on this topic on the butch zone, plenty of femmes posted and not once did anyone ask for clarification. I doubt the ID of femme alone means that someone has a clarity on perspective. Femmes are not the same, anymore then all butches are the same, anymore then all trans are the same.......

Not IDing as a Femme or a Butch for me personally is about how the words are used HERE. Where I live in real time, they are not used in the same way that so many people use them in online. My real time community and I use the words in the same way. My experience online has taught me that people absolutely freak out in the way I use the words....and I know that is because of for many they consider it their gender. Gender is something that I am VERY respectful of on many levels and embrace for all people. How people feel on the inside is not a joke or something I want to be seen as dismissive of... ever. It has happened to me in real time and online.
So I don't use the term butch or femme as an ID in here.
I am most aligned with Kiki in a historical sense. I don't embrace it entirely. I am both butch and FEM which is not short for femme, rather feminine....which is how we use the words here... Kiki was used as a disparaging term during the 1950s which does trouble me for that reason. I don't consider myself a switch sexually - so to me Kiki doesn't equal switch and why I prefer use it for myself.
I love the 1950s version of BF that I have read (I wish there were more) I tend to romanticize it....
I am a feminine woman who is seen as straight in my day to day life. I tell everyone I am queer because I am lucky enough to live where I do....it takes far less bravery then it does for many of you. Location, location, location.
I belong to all and nothing. In my head and with people who know me in real time I am understood or at the very least respected. Translating that online is very difficult. I can say that my experiences are very similar as a woman with many on this site. Exactly the same? None are exactly the same. But I am a woman. I am queer. I am a mother and a daughter. I work. I cry. I feel. I love....

[Gayla]

So I don't use the term butch or femme as an ID in here.
I am most aligned with Kiki in a historical sense. I don't embrace it entirely. I am both butch and FEM which is not short for femme, rather feminine....which is how we use the words here... Kiki was used as a disparaging term during the 1950s which does trouble me for that reason. I don't consider myself a switch sexually - so to me Kiki doesn't equal switch and why I prefer use it for myself.



This is the second time in, I believe, as many days that I've seen someone say this. No *sigh* not the exact same quote, not using the same words, etc. etc. but a similar concept.

I have no issues with what people call themselves and where people fall along the butch-femme line as it is constantly changing for most all of us on some level. I also have no issue with people who do not identify as butch or femme participating on the site.

I do have problems when someone speaks from "the place of" a specific ID that they do not own. This is what it has felt like when reading your posts in various threads over the last few days.

[adorable]

This is the second time in, I believe, as many days that I've seen someone say this. No *sigh* not the exact same quote, not using the same words, etc. etc. but a similar concept.

I have no issues with what people call themselves and where people fall along the butch-femme line as it is constantly changing for most all of us on some level. I also have no issue with people who do not identify as butch or femme participating on the site.

I do have problems when someone speaks from "the place of" a specific ID that they do not own. This is what it has felt like when reading your posts in various threads over the last few days.

I apologize. If I have to own an ID to post how I feel about certain things I'm not sure what to do about that. Perhaps I don't belong?

ETA: I didn't speak in this particular thread in that way if you look at my OP either. I was simply agreeing with two femme's perspectives and an observation that I had made. It was something I wanted to add and I personally thought had value to the current discussion. I didn't take the OP and answer all the questions as if I was a femme....

[Nat]

Adorable - if you are here you belong. The interest in your Id (for me) has been more "how do I read your words" than any determination about whether or not you belong or have a right to speak. Anyway thank you for being kind enough to indulge the questions.

My gf does not identify as either butch or femme and she is total awesomeness in my world. She doesn't post here partially because of that and partially because she's not a huge fan of Internet forums, but I do hope she would feel welcomed here if she ever did decide to join.

[adorable]

Adorable - if you are here you belong. The interest in your Id (for me) has been more "how do I read your words" than any determination about whether or not you belong or have a right to speak. Anyway thank you for being kind enough to indulge the questions.

My gf does not identify as either butch or femme and she is total awesomeness in my world. She doesn't post here partially because of that and partially because she's not a huge fan of Internet forums, but I do hope she would feel welcomed here if she ever did decide to join.

Thank you.

My ID will not help you read my words any more then anyone else's ID helps you read their words. Words themselves help you understand where someone is coming from. Words and who someone is helps you understand perspective.

All people in general have different perspectives based on where they live, how they were raised, what has happened in their lives, who they are partnered with, who they have been partnered with in the past, where they work and in some cases how they fuck.

To say that somehow knowing or understanding my ID will help you read my words doesn't make anymore sense to me then if I said I was a purple goat. In order for my ID to help you read my words we would all have to agree on the same definition of particular IDs which will never happen. If anyone starts saying that Femmes do this and Butches do this - well, that isn't true is it?
So for me people that claim femme or butch (or any other ID) doesn't have anything to do with their perspective on a particular topic.

Someone isn't saying something because they are a certain ID, they are saying something based on the whole of their experiences.

[Nat]

I disagree with you like 90%. :)

[apretty]

YES! I swear not even 2 days ago I looked at Jackhammer in the middle of a conversation about identities and said that claiming the "she" that I am and that she is in our own separate ways is fucking subversive. (and that's hot)
I see some parallels about it having been a subversive act on the dash site to demand and claim female when things were particularly hostile toward "all things female" there.(my read)


isn't it funny that claiming female (and *She*) has become a subversive act?


we're also having these conversations at home, E doesn't get the historical context/background of the *dash* site where SHE = glittery prom dress and HE = could only mean man *and* butch (spit/grunt). and in my FEMME head (like most of us), SHE means all sorts of things (including big papa and my mean old man).


E asked me why everyone (specifically ME) doesn't just leave that 'shit over there'? and i have to admit, it occurs to me that i've been reading/posting/participating *here* from a skeptical/protective (anti-dash?) place--not wanting the *SHE* to become once again marginalized. and in doing so, i've just assumed that the male-folk are comfortable/welcome and taking up space (because of my prior experience: "that's what males do").


frankly, that's not fair of me. new site! and though many of the same people are here, we're collectively older and wiser.


and i've *done* all of the stuff that now makes me cringe: assigning gender, HE-ing all butches, yes! i've done it and it's utter shit and i'm *glad* that i now know better--the world is so much cooler when it's not cleaved in *two*




I'm crazy glad you brought this up. I feel like it's a touchy subject about the movement of more young butches toward a Trans identity because I do see layers of "the answer to my "I dont feel ok" problem within that youth community sometimes. And no, it's not really about ageism for me - It is about the youth of anyone's gender identity and how I relate it to what I see as an evolution process for all of us.
Sometimes I have wondered if it is about internal misogyny, about power dynamics, about wanting to gain privilege, about the subversive and intentional "othering" of the self that says "SEEE! SEEEEEE! I really AM a unique and special butterfly!!"
I also recognize that I don't have the right to question any individual's journey to themself, even if it doesn't make sense to me. I would like to understand it though and I hope I get to ask (respectful) questions to make that happen.



it's a hugely sensitive subject! and to say, hey something's not right here and still be an ally: i struggle with balancing the two, still.


i'm well aware of what it is to be partnered to someone exploring their gender and needing to take the steps to correct the gender that they present to the outside world and i've been in the position to be the support and be the advocate for those guys.


so, as difficult as it is for me to say, i do see that *other* stuff goes into transitioning from FTM like internalized homophobia, discomfort or a *lack* of butch community, the faux butch-continuum (she = feminine female and butch-EST = TRANSmale), etc.


and of course this isn't true for even a majority of trans people--but for the butches that see transitioning as a means of dodging the lesbo-bullet i just wanna say: the simple fact is, everyone struggles with being female in this society and you can be female bodied and way more of a MAN than the manliest man out there if you so choose, by virtue of your existence.




Word. I think this is what Heart has touched on all over the place (not said in a snarky way, but a way that says I recognize she has been advocating for this vehemently and with utter commendable conviction).
I see misogyny dictating that not only are women "less than" men, but that women also must be "less than" each other. Because that whole construct of "You must be this type of woman with x, y, and z characteristics to be considered valid, desireable, acceptable, and any other number of "unattainable" virtues" is at work *within* our own female communities. Hello? Look at the fractioning with the female/male identities in the Butch communities and the "Diamond-encrusted best-Femme-in-the-Universe EWWWWWWWwouldnevereatpussybecauseitsickybutpleaseo penmydoorbecauseImahelplesswiddlekitten" shit that tries to play out in the Femme community.
That shit is not just about people trying to "gender top" one another. It's the ingrained messages that the world feeds us from DAY ONE about who we are supposed to be and how we are supposed to get there.




a femme subjugating herself is sooooo unattractive! ;)


and it breaks my heart a little because i hold *femme* as precious and unsullied by that patriarchal/hetero/misog bullshit--but the simple fact is, of *course* we're a product of our environment and its messages and while we're not all there, i believe we can all *get there*.


**and a public thank you to Heart for her conviction!!

[SassyLeo]

Thank you.

My ID will not help you read my words any more then anyone else's ID helps you read their words. Words themselves help you understand where someone is coming from. Words and who someone is helps you understand perspective.

All people in general have different perspectives based on where they live, how they were raised, what has happened in their lives, who they are partnered with, who they have been partnered with in the past, where they work and in some cases how they fuck.

To say that somehow knowing or understanding my ID will help you read my words doesn't make anymore sense to me then if I said I was a purple goat. In order for my ID to help you read my words we would all have to agree on the same definition of particular IDs which will never happen. If anyone starts saying that Femmes do this and Butches do this - well, that isn't true is it?
So for me people that claim femme or butch (or any other ID) doesn't have anything to do with their perspective on a particular topic.

Someone isn't saying something because they are a certain ID, they are saying something based on the whole of their experiences.

I disagree with you like 90%. :)

I disagree also...

Here is why.

"All people in general have different perspectives based on where they live, how they were raised, what has happened in their lives, who they are partnered with, who they have been partnered with in the past, where they work and in some cases how they fuck."

And ID'ing as Femme, Butch, Trans, a Dyke, a Lesbian, a Man, etc... all are figured out from one's own "soul searching" of course but even that is influenced by what has happened in folks likes and who they are partnered with, what communities they are involved in, what they learned from other Queers, communities, etc.

How I speak and how my words are heard and read are absolutely influenced by how by my Femme identity and how I figured it out...through friends, experiences, communities, whom I dated, etc. BECAUSE I learned and discovered this from all those things.

How you/I/we came to figure out/decide the ID that suits us is a product of living, experience, environment, etc.

So, I'm not sure how those things can be separate. We are products of our lives' experiences.

[Isadora]

I find this whole discussion moot. Obviously people ID differently. We are all complex beings who have many identities. I don't think I like being "pigeonholed" (for lack of a better term) into anyone reading me through a "femme lense" rather than a human lens. Femme to me is PART of many parts of who I am. (I.E. I am fat, I am highly educated, I am of European descent, I am old, I am handicapped, I am...)

The last time I checked, I had no need to make comments on how people ID, just had to accept it. I have been and out femme for over 30 years. I have seen the ebb and wane of ID's that are accepted and not accepted.

Now, I know it is a femme thread, so it makes sense to ask how a participant id's. Once they ID or chose not to ID, I need to move on I do not need to vilify (I know strong word but that is the "feeling" I get from posts) or keep hounding on the same subject because I did not get an answer I liked. "No" or "do not ID as femme" is an answer, whether I like the answer or not. So now with that knowledge I can "read" through my femme lens posts.

Historically, in the 50's and 60's you had to id either b or f in our community, those who ID'd as kiki were kind of shunned or feared. The rigid structures of that culture were questioned and dismissed by some and we had the androgynous lesbian community. Rigidity led to backlash against the b/f community in the 70's where b/f became ridiculed for being "pawns of the patriarchy" and "coping heterosexual relationships". (K, I find it amusing that those same people are now touting for acceptance that we are JUST like heterosexual relationships.) I would hate to go back to that rigid structure.

I am a femme lesbian. I have always been a femme lesbian. I marched my little ass off to say that out loud. What I am reading is two different perspectives. Each is worthwhile, each is legitimate and valued. So to disagree is a natural thing and actually a good thing. I have gotten to the point with somethings to ask without snark or cynicism, "Is it okay to disagree with you?" Because sometimes it seems it is not or at least the question opens up a discussion on the ability to disagree and still honor one another.

I, like Sassy, have huge issues with cultural appropriation of language. To me, a woman can be feminine if she is not queer id'ed but femme is part of the glbt culture. But it is my opinion...

[SuperFemme]

Maybe if the collective *we* spent more time building bridges than we do building fences there would be no Gender Wars?

Because I look around lately and see lots of fences being erected, and they are blocking the bridges.

[Words]

Maybe if the collective *we* spent more time building bridges than we do building fences there would be no Gender Wars?

Because I look around lately and see lots of fences being erected, and they are blocking the bridges.

Absofuckinglutely.

[oblivia]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No, I do not feel any animosity towards any entire groups of IDs of any type (butch, femme, purple-people-eaters). Why would I be angry at a group of people for how they ID? I don't get it.

Within this conversation, I am willing to admit that I do sometimes feel as if there is a great deal of pressure (or at least that there historically has been) from within the queer community to "pick a side". By that, I mean, that there seems to be this ... concept... stereotype.... or expectation (fighting for the right word here...) that if you are femme, you must be a certain 'type' of femme (IE traditionally female, take on traditionally female or feminine roles in your family, relationship, dress and act a certain way, etc) and that if you are butch, you must be a certain 'type' of butch (IE traditionally male, take on traditionally male or masculine roles in your family, relationship, dress, and act in those ways, etc.)

BECAUSE of this pressure that I (speaking from my me-place) perceive, I feel that the lack of a community that really respects ALL the shades of femme and butch equally creates pressure to pick one extreme or another which, and I know I'm asking for trouble here but I want to be honest about my perception, leads to perhaps hastiness and confusion on the masculine 'side' of things that makes figuring out possible transgender/transexual issues even trickier than I presume it already is.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

Absolutely not. I personally can't even wrap my head around how one ID could be threatened by another. Perhaps this conversation will shed some light on that for me and I can develop a greater understanding for others' perspectives here.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

Absolutely not. My perspective is that everyone has become fiercely defensive of their own IDs. We all want to be seen and respected and honoured and held at equal 'level' with all the other IDs and when it is perceived that one ID carries more 'weight' than the other or is sort of glorified to a greater degree it makes those that aren't in the 'glorified' category want to go "WAIT! What about me?!!? I'm just as awesome as the rest of you!!"

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

I really can't stand the term war at all, actually, because I don't think that's what is happening.

I think that there is dischord within the femme community and that there is as someone (please forgive my lack of credit here) put - a hierarchy. I get bristly at terms like "high femme" (does that make me a "low femme"?) and get that those are my own sensitivities and issues because I am not a super dress-uppy kinda femme. I dont' wear makeup except on occasion or for a particular purpose. So, that's ME doing my defensive thing about "my femme ID is just as good as your femme ID". So in that way, I think that we do the competitive thing just as I perceive that the butches do the competitive thing.

All that said, though I have to give BIG PROPS to this community because at least here at BFP, this seems so much better than I remember from my old days at the other site - and I bet it's not just the change of scenery but because some time has passed and people like Medusa and Metropolis and others have been HAVING these types of conversations so from someone who has been away for a few years, I can really see the difference and commend this community for it's collective growth. You all rock.

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I think that gender and identity-formation is a VERY personal thing and my belief is that even when we think we ARE influencing someone else's ID, we're not. The facts as I see them is that the only way someone else can influence my ID is if I choose to let them - which still makes it my choice and my power, therefore they're not influencing me at all (directly, that is).

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have a feminine identity. I identify as both feminine and female these things are personally important to me with relation to my Femme identity.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that whenever someone or something makes us uncomfortable it is almost ALWAYS an external manifestation of something going on internally. I am defensive of my ID, sometimes too much, and I know that I get very defensive of the "female-ID'd butch" because my Sparx is female-ID'd and some very dear friends (past and present) have been female-ID'd and I've seen the similarities between the perceived hierarchy of the butch side of things (the more masculine you act/seem the more 'butch' you are) and to ME it feels VERY similar to the femme hierarchy of (the more feminine you act/seem the more makeup/girly stuff you wear/do/like etcetc, the more 'femme' you are).

So that is MY personal stuff and I know that when I get frustrated in ID and gender conversations that this certainly colours my perspective and I own that. I'm still working on it, and like I said above, this community as I see it has come a LONG way even in the last few years, from what I can see so far and that seems pretty darn impressive.

I really don't like to speak too much to misogyny and sexism because I dont' know enough about either (from an educated standpoint) to feel like I can hold my own in conversations about this. But i will say one thing and hope it comes out right.

We live in a binary society. That is the reality as I see it. Where I live I have met people who identify as Ze, as It, as Hyr, as She, He, They and a myriad of other genders and identities. But when these same people step outside their queer communities they do not use anything other than she or he - when communicating with people on a professional level. I appreciate that everyone has the right to their ID, but I wonder at how we segregate ourselves and create a community with a rainbow of IDs that we then do not take out into the rest of the world with us. And so I perceive we have two worlds we seem to live in - the segregated queer community where we can be "who we are" which means living by a different set of rules and expecting people in that community to treat you differently than you expect people outside of that community to treat you. I'm not sure how beneficial that is to the greater human community that we live, work, and play in. I'm not sure what we're actually DOING to change anything when we maintain our binary roles in the areas that require the greatest change. This is just my perception

I go to work every single day and I out myself again, and again, and again. I bring my butch wife with me to work events. I answer my coworkers questions when they're confused about why the two of us look different and when they ask questions that 'feel' offensive but that I KNOW is just them seeking understanding and information. Every day, I own my identity 24/7. Whether I am within the queer community, the professional community, or anywhere else, I act the same and expect the same level of respect for who I am and (this is important to me) that means that I am willing to take the time to educate ANYONE in my life who doesn't understand and that means sometimes I get asked questions that are uncomfortable. That means that sometimes someone says something offensive, and I have found that most of the time it's unintentional and that by being willing to listen and not freak out and give them an answer, that I can teach them something, about me and who I am and that people who are "different" than what we call mainstream aren't as scary as one might think. This is how I work to make change in my immediate community and in the places i live and love.

I feel really fucking protective of "Femme". As in, when I finally figured out that Femme was the right word to use to describe how I feel about ME, it was like the OMG A-ha moment.

And FOR ME, I feel like FEMME is a Queer denominator.

To people in the world, outside my community, I appear as a straight woman. Even though I work with many Queer folk at my job, no one had any idea I was Queer. One woman who is partnered and I have been work-friends with, was shocked when one day I was talking about Erin and used "she". I out myself everyday. And luckily I work for a company which celebrates diversity.

So, for me, FEMME is how I get to differentiate myself, how I say to the world: "I am Queer. I can look however I want, I don't fit in your stereotypes. I may "appear" as what you call a straight woman, but I AM NOT."

I know that not everyone feels the same as I do. I know there are people out there in the world who are like none of us on the site who use this word to describe themselves. However Femme looks to me is different than you and everyone else in the community. And yet, I find it hard to not care if some random straight woman in Missouri calls herself a Femme. It should make no difference to me since she is not connected to my/your Queer world... but it does.

Yes. This. I totally admit that this is a HUGE thing for me too. Coming to my femme identity was one of the most transformative experiences of my life and I am fiercely protective of it.

[daisyfm]

Great thread Medusa! I thank you.
I haven't been here in a while. I am so glad you started this conversation. It is long overdue both online and in real time. I think. I cannot answer all the questions, but I will say what I feel is going on regarding Gender Wars...
Once upon a time when I came out in the 1990's, Butches opened doors and they opened minds. Femmes loved being Femmes, we also opened minds, we were liked and treated well. I don't remember misogyny at all. Butches were called she or he, or both, it depended on the Butch. Nobody around me ever made a big deal about their pronoun because it was respected and they would tell us what to use. Period. The Older Femmes whom I respected and worshiped, helped me shape and define my own identity without competition or rivalry. I had a lesbian husband who was NOT a wife and nobody ever questioned us. Nobody called her a he but me.
We LIVED gender. We didn't talk about it as much. We didn't have the vocabulary that is used these days. It wasn't a better time, but it sure was a time where people were more accepting about the Butch-Femme dynamic.
The Present. 2011.
The Gender War is on. Big time. I see it online and offline. In all my years of being out, which are many by now, I have never seen so much Femme rivalry and competition on who is more feminine than who, nor have I seen so much judgement surrounding Butch Identity, and who is more masculine than who.
This makes me sad, it makes me furious.
It has made me very isolated and feel like I am not a part of any community both online or offline.
I don't know if I am making a point here.
All I want to say is that sometimes change can be good, as long as every single identity is respected.
I used to be happy and feel my Femme "pride" as a younger woman, I had my place in my community I didn't have to fight for it even if I was invisible, and now that I am close to my 40's I feel so bad about not being respected as a Femme these days.
Misogyny is worse than it has ever been before. I have never been treated so badly by Butches as I am these days, and NO I am definitely not playing victim here or bashing anyone in particular. I am just wishing I was treated like in the past, were being Femme was beautiful and it sure felt wonderful. I hear the same thing from other Femmes I speak to.
I am starting a Femme group in my community soon, if only 2 people show up the day of the meeting, then what I am writing here will even make more sense and sadly it will be even more real to me...
Anyways...I am not sure if I answered any questions.
I am hoping to read more...

[Nat]

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen?

A good friend of mine recently made the decision to begin transitioning. I've never met him in person though I've known him for 7 years now through various internet media, phone and paper mail. He lives in a small town and is physically pretty isolated. He's never been interested in the butch-femme dynamic, and so he hasn't had to deal in gender wars in this community.

When I was in my darkest moments in the exploration of my own gender, I talked to him about it. He and I had so much in common regarding our gender experience even though we seem very different from the outside. When I felt least accepted by others, he accepted me. Because he wasn't married to any definitions of femme, nothing I told him about my own experience made him feel uncomfortable or made him question my experience or identity.

I've always offered him the same acceptance. During the last 7 years, there's been a steady drumbeat of "I'm trans" though there has been a lot of variation of approach to dealing with the circumstances. Most of the time, I was just an ear, an open door - and he has been the same to me. The other day he thanked me for my "unwavering support." That support was made of listening, hearing, accepting, encouraging, reflecting back. That's it. Relatively few and far between moments over the course of 7 years.

I don't think femmes have the ability to change a person's ID, but I do think acceptance and support can be chosen over rejection and judgment. I don't think it's just the job of femmes to accept and support though. I think there are some heterosexist/sexist ideas that filter in from mainstream culture that somehow the feminine partner is the one in charge of the emotional labor or that the feminine group are the ones within the community compelled to shoulder the emotional labor for the group as a whole.

hmm this is a little incomplete but work calls.

[daisyfm]

I really want to say that as Femmes we are allies to Butches and Transmen. As allies we do contribute in identity I think, at least because we support them.
It has been this way for as long as I can remember. Long is a long time!