Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[AtLast]

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

I remember it all very well! And now, I am a "woman identified feminist butch!"

Something I must bring up is that it was those very 1970's feminist activist lesbians, that brought gender and transgender theory out of the closet! Put it in the public eye. It always amazes me how historical facts get re-written. Every transgendered person can thank a Second Wave feminist for the entire emergence of gender identification variables, political view formation, services to and for, entry of laws protecting transpeople, etc. to the very lesbian feminists that so many, refer to with nothing but ignorance about historical facts.

Of course, feminism and gender theory must progress, stretch, and become relevant to each generation- but misrepresenting or vilifying its roots isn't growth- it is simply bigotry of another kind.

Ignorance remains bliss..........

[dark_crystal]

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

i love what the Radicalesbians did for us, but i admit to being disturbed when reading about political lesbianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism)(not to say the two are related!!!!), which taught that women should choose to be lesbian as a political statement. I kinda wish that hadn't happened

i feel like that pholosophy inadvertently got in the way of getting the message out that for many (most? all?) of us it is not a choice

and i feel like this kind of philosophy was also at work throughout the years i spent denying my attraction to butches, as it seemed expected that since i was choosing to be with a woman, i should choose one who fit the model of feminist political correctness ascendant in late 80s Texas.

[tapu]

Whenever a man has said to me--and this has happened more than once--"You just want to be a man," I say, "Well, that makes two of us."

[JustJo]

Regarding what is and what is not "appropriate" content for this particular thread, I feel that it is pretty open to interpretation. The title and opening ( thank you Liam for creating it!) leaves ample room for ANY discussion Lesbians may want to engage in among one another. To conclude it is for just a role call ( hi, my name is ______ and I am a lesbian) is ok, if that is as far as you ( the reader) wish to take it. I have found that generally, after the howdys have taken place, other conversations will follow. I am pretty ok with seeing where the conversations go. It is how we grow.

I agree...which is why I objected to being told that my posts (and Tapu's) were somehow "not okay" and the others were.

I'm fine with any and all posting. I don't come in and smack people for derailing...I simply post what I want to, and allow others to do the same.

It's a simple approach, and lends itself to acceptance rather than policing others....and I'm all for that.

If folks here want to discuss serious subjects...have at it. I simply objected to Christie's attempts to police the thread (and me).

:olive:

[Kobi]

I agree...which is why I objected to being told that my posts (and Tapu's) were somehow "not okay" and the others were.

I'm fine with any and all posting. I don't come in and smack people for derailing...I simply post what I want to, and allow others to do the same.

It's a simple approach, and lends itself to acceptance rather than policing others....and I'm all for that.

If folks here want to discuss serious subjects...have at it. I simply objected to Christie's attempts to police the thread (and me).

:olive:



For what it is worth, to me, it seems there are common courtesy and respect issues that would be nice to address here.

The lesbian zone and its threads are not very widely used. A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

In the midst of this, folks who rarely have the need to leap, suddenly needed to leap. I am a lesbian, so I am all for leaping.

However, if there was a serious conversation going on someplace about cancer treatment, it would not even occur to me to pop in and start a posting about the Red Sox.

And, I certainly would have a hard time getting bent out of shape if I wasnt responded to or if I got my hat handed to me on a sliver platter for having interrupted.

There is freedom here to go where we please and post where we want, when we want. But, to me, it doesnt over rule common courtesy and respect for others.

Just my take on things. Please, continue leaping.

[tapu]

For what it is worth, to me, it seems there are common courtesy and respect issues that would be nice to address here.

The lesbian zone and its threads are not very widely used. A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

In the midst of this, folks who rarely have the need to leap, suddenly needed to leap. I am a lesbian, so I am all for leaping.

However, if there was a serious conversation going on someplace about cancer treatment, it would not even occur to me to pop in and start a posting about the Red Sox.

And, I certainly would have a hard time getting bent out of shape if I wasnt responded to or if I got my hat handed to me on a sliver platter for having interrupted.

There is freedom here to go where we please and post where we want, when we want. But, to me, it doesnt over rule common courtesy and respect for others.

Just my take on things. Please, continue leaping.


Calling that common courtesy doesn't make it a neutral viewpoint. Real courtesy is mutual. Some of us in there leaping weren't disrespectful of those turning it into a platform for "butch voices" debate--no one said, "hey, wrong thread," now did they?--but at the same time when someone said anything else, it was squelched. To say that was the equivalent of interrupting a conversation about cancer to post about the Red Sox is at best hyperbole.

[tapu]

A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.




For the record, it had morphed into a discussion of who was getting paid or comped at this BV conference.

[JustJo]

For what it is worth, to me, it seems there are common courtesy and respect issues that would be nice to address here.

The lesbian zone and its threads are not very widely used. A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

In the midst of this, folks who rarely have the need to leap, suddenly needed to leap. I am a lesbian, so I am all for leaping.

However, if there was a serious conversation going on someplace about cancer treatment, it would not even occur to me to pop in and start a posting about the Red Sox.

And, I certainly would have a hard time getting bent out of shape if I wasnt responded to or if I got my hat handed to me on a sliver platter for having interrupted.

There is freedom here to go where we please and post where we want, when we want. But, to me, it doesnt over rule common courtesy and respect for others.

Just my take on things. Please, continue leaping.


Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

I'm not butch
I've never attended Butch Voices
I don't know any of the people involved
I don't know any of the history involved


I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

:olive:

[Nina]

this is not my forum....I read it since I am interested to know what people are saying 'n stuff...and sometimes I see the names of folks I stalk in here so I read it....(waves to Jo this morning)...

that said: it seems to me to be Very heavy handed, and pretty patronizing, to equate a line or two of lightness with coming into a cancer thread and talking baseball (I assume that's the red socks reference and not a fashion commentary?)...do we forget that one of the advantages of the internet is that we Do Not have to keep reading if we find, after the first few words, that what we are reading is not a good fit?...do we forget that when we are stern and do the public admonishment thing that other people, maybe some of the many folks who come and read and think and get something from this venue, may well think to themselves that they can't take the risk of posting lest they are deemed as not "enough" for the thread patrols?...

I have not said anything for a while, and not been sure If I had the 'right' to comment....this morning I feel I do...feel free to write this off to some 'oh that crazy-nina' thing...or,even better to have done, as I suggest and do myself, just stopped reading it when it became clear it was an annoyance or a derail or any other thing which didn't resonate...

[tapu]

Man, that Jo-babe really brings it. :)

[Daktari]

For the love of lesbians** lets leap....

Some lesbians like to do it groups...with pants on their heads
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2477306768_d7ab6dd44d_m.jpg

Some like to do it in pairs
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/4149333729_b73361e444_m.jpg

Some leap solo
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2356173442_82451bc7b2.jpg

Whether you favour the more traditional leap...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2226974022_00e888d21a_m.jpg

or the 'bomb'...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2233417424_7b3ed5fd87_m.jpg

if it makes you light-headed...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2322502090_0154861b21_m.jpg

Whatever you do don't jump ship, just keep on leaping!
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2260953477_3da8d04060_m.jpg






**no lesbians of any ID were hurt in the making of this post.


I hope no-one is offended by a little levity in amongst the more serious discussion................normal service can now resumed.

[Kobi]

Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

I'm not butch
I've never attended Butch Voices
I don't know any of the people involved
I don't know any of the history involved


I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

:olive:



With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.

[JustJo]

With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.



Then we are in the same boat and, for the record, I don't use people as punching bags. I don't even use punching bags as punching bags. I simply speak my own mind, and invite you and everyone else to do the same.

[tapu]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

[Dreams]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

the dodgers look good this season...

[Gayla]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

[christie]

Jo -

I was going to respond to you in a PM as to not further derail, but it seems now this has become a conversation/topic for discussion.

I suppose you can call me a lot of things, but first and foremost, I tend to be respectful and kind to people. I find that moving thru the world is a lot easier if I treat people as I wish to be treated as opposed to quid pro quo.

I found (and still find) the silliness to be disrespectful. I didn't smack you on the hand or attempt to moderate. I simply identified a behavior that I see replicated time and time again that feels disrespectful and silencing TO ME.

Maybe I have some personal shit surrounding why to interrupt a conversation feels disrespectful - and I own that just as you have your stuff surrounding why you are offended by my comments on yours and tapu's posts. Maybe the two loves of my life (Jess and Bratboy) are both some kinda ADD and seem to CONSTANTLY interrupt me when I speak. We are both entitled to those feelings. If I am a little hypersensitive, then I do apologize; however, I don't think I was being overly sensitive to it based on the personal notes I got about my post. That's not me dragging someone into this, its me just saying, "Hey - I wasn't the only one."

Since this thread is not in the fluff category, I don't take it to be lighthearted, unless at the time, it is. In fact, until Kobi started a new thread (yesterday, maybe?) I do believe it was the only active thread in the Lesbian Zone.

Additionally, I had no clue there was another thread about the BV issues - I don't often read all the threads unless a new one happens to catch my eye on the front page.

I didn't see the conversations as being solely about BV. Honestly, the only time butch issues come into play for me is when they affect Jess. For the most part, I stay out of them, more because I am weary of "butch" being made less than or a stopping point on the road to male/trans. My tolerance for the pushing aside the butches in our online communities (feeding into real-time communities) is about nil.

I saw a couple of different issues being discussed more than BV and how they spend their money. I saw butches talking about how changing the venacular felt silencing and erasing. I saw conversations about why it matters if a transman heads up a group that was supposed to be about butches and the many faces of butch.

We can agree to disagree on your intent, but I would like to mention that if your intent was because you were "sick to fucking death of folks trying to define others" (not a precise quote) then why not just say that? I share your feeling of being sick to fucking death of labels and the ensuing discussions, interpretation of qualifiers, etc. I just chose not to engage in those conversations.

But, when those conversations are taking place in a thread I subscribe to, I usually don't get involved because I am liable to post that I am sick of them and that would be just as silencing and disrespectful to folks as I feel like the silly derails are...

I hope this makes it more clear for you that, like a whole lotta other folks contributing here, I saw something that felt disrespectful and simply pointed it out. I'm not sure what makes it wrong for me to do so and yet not others?

If you would like, we can continue this in PM.

[JustJo]

Hi Christie,

I appreciate you coming back in to clarify. I put my notes in purple to respond....because it just seems easier.

Jo -

I was going to respond to you in a PM as to not further derail, but it seems now this has become a conversation/topic for discussion.

I suppose you can call me a lot of things, but first and foremost, I tend to be respectful and kind to people. I find that moving thru the world is a lot easier if I treat people as I wish to be treated as opposed to quid pro quo.

I didn't call you anything negative, nor would I. I don't know you and don't have any experience in dealing with you at all. For me to speak negatively of a person takes a long history of negative experiences....not just a disagreement.

And, I agree. I try very hard to allow others to be themselves, and simply ask that they treat me the same way.

I found (and still find) the silliness to be disrespectful. I didn't smack you on the hand or attempt to moderate. I simply identified a behavior that I see replicated time and time again that feels disrespectful and silencing TO ME.

Okay....it felt like a smack on the hand, but if you say that you didn't mean it that way, then I can accept that.

Maybe I have some personal shit surrounding why to interrupt a conversation feels disrespectful - and I own that just as you have your stuff surrounding why you are offended by my comments on yours and tapu's posts. Maybe the two loves of my life (Jess and Bratboy) are both some kinda ADD and seem to CONSTANTLY interrupt me when I speak. We are both entitled to those feelings. If I am a little hypersensitive, then I do apologize; however, I don't think I was being overly sensitive to it based on the personal notes I got about my post. That's not me dragging someone into this, its me just saying, "Hey - I wasn't the only one."

I'm sure that there are many folks on both sides of the issues. Not to drag others into this...but I had many reps and PMs saying thank you as well. I think we can probably assume that we have a variety of opinions going on here since we have a variety of people here.

Since this thread is not in the fluff category, I don't take it to be lighthearted, unless at the time, it is. In fact, until Kobi started a new thread (yesterday, maybe?) I do believe it was the only active thread in the Lesbian Zone.

Additionally, I had no clue there was another thread about the BV issues - I don't often read all the threads unless a new one happens to catch my eye on the front page.

I'm pretty sure that there is one specifically about BV 2011 (by that name) and another that, I think, Medusa started about these kinds of conferences in general. Personally, I think that the conversation is important - and I never objected to it being here. I simply objected to the messaging that one conversation was "okay" and the other wasn't.

To me, that feels like policing.

I didn't see the conversations as being solely about BV. Honestly, the only time butch issues come into play for me is when they affect Jess. For the most part, I stay out of them, more because I am weary of "butch" being made less than or a stopping point on the road to male/trans. My tolerance for the pushing aside the butches in our online communities (feeding into real-time communities) is about nil.

Agreed. We're in the same boat on this.

I saw a couple of different issues being discussed more than BV and how they spend their money. I saw butches talking about how changing the venacular felt silencing and erasing. I saw conversations about why it matters if a transman heads up a group that was supposed to be about butches and the many faces of butch.

We can agree to disagree on your intent, but I would like to mention that if your intent was because you were "sick to fucking death of folks trying to define others" (not a precise quote) then why not just say that? I share your feeling of being sick to fucking death of labels and the ensuing discussions, interpretation of qualifiers, etc. I just chose not to engage in those conversations.

I didn't come in straight away and say "I'm sick to fucking death" because at the time of my original posting, that button hadn't been pushed. I was responding to a light-hearted post, in what started as a light-hearted thread. I didn't object to the heavier conversation, even though I personally believe it might fit better in another place, because I don't police people. I'm not a moderator. This isn't my site. This isn't even my thread.

And, I do engage in those conversations because I think it must be said. I see us (the BFP online community) doing an awful lot of the same behavior that we complain about the larger community doing to us. This bothers me. If we fragment and "other" parts of this community, we only weaken ourselves and contribute to the negative messaging that, no doubt, many of us have experienced for a very long time.

But, when those conversations are taking place in a thread I subscribe to, I usually don't get involved because I am liable to post that I am sick of them and that would be just as silencing and disrespectful to folks as I feel like the silly derails are...

Okay....this is a silencing statement - and I'm going to call you out on it. So, by what you're saying here...posting that I am sick of them is silencing and disrespectful, so I shouldn't do that. And "silly derails" are also silencing and disrespectful, so I shouldn't do that. So....what? I should toe the line and agree with everyone, or shut up? No thank you.

Do you see that what you're saying here is either that I should agree with everyone and go along entirely in the same vein or be quiet? Do you see how that's the very thing that I am objecting to?

I hope this makes it more clear for you that, like a whole lotta other folks contributing here, I saw something that felt disrespectful and simply pointed it out. I'm not sure what makes it wrong for me to do so and yet not others?

Christie....you can do what you like. You can say what you like. I'm not telling you to go along or be quiet. I'm not asking you to agree with me. Please feel free to post whatever you want to post. I will do the same. I'm not even asking you to like it, or me.

I objected to what you said. That means I disagreed with you. I can do that. And you can disagree with me too. And, just because....I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop with the "whole lotta other folks" thing. This isn't a popularity contest. This is a bunch of individuals speaking their minds. I'm not going to come in and recite how many PMs and reps I got. That isn't really the point, is it?

If you would like, we can continue this in PM.

I'm not sure how to say this to be really clear but ....what it boils down to for me....you are absolutely welcome to say whatever you like, even when you're disagreeing with me. I'll do the same. And that's truly okay with me.

[tapu]

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

[*Anya*]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

[clay]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

What she said!!! I totally agree!!!

[Gayla]

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

I thought my question was fairly direct and, honestly, I was hoping for a direct answer. If your intention was not to be disrespectful and I just, as I've been told in multiple rep comments, "misunderstood", then I would hope you would say that.

I find your comment about the fragility of members here to be deflective and dismissive of the fact that some people enjoy serious discussions and don't feel the need to just couch everything in humor.

One of the great things about this community is that there is room here for everyone, in whatever way they like to participate, as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Poking at folks, throwing the blame back at them and then threatening to flounce out, doesn't really come across as respectful.

[Daktari]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

:goodpost:, nay make that A Great Post!

[tapu]

I thought my question was fairly direct and, honestly, I was hoping for a direct answer. If your intention was not to be disrespectful and I just, as I've been told in multiple rep comments, "misunderstood", then I would hope you would say that.

I find your comment about the fragility of members here to be deflective and dismissive of the fact that some people enjoy serious discussions and don't feel the need to just couch everything in humor.

One of the great things about this community is that there is room here for everyone, in whatever way they like to participate, as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Poking at folks, throwing the blame back at them and then threatening to flounce out, doesn't really come across as respectful.

Okay. Well, I don't feel like I can say anything more about that.

[OS Butch]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?


Booooo!!!! How about those Nats.....:blink: Ok maybe not.:jester:

[Chancie]

Does it always end up being about the butches?

[Martina]

i had made some heartfelt angst-ridden comment before the lightness ensued and did do a double take. But that happens all the time. And some of the participants i noted were (to me) trusted members. So i just let it go. i don't feel that reacting to that makes me someone with heightened sensitivities. i didn't respond (though i did react) because i do not think we can manage people's participation to the degree that at least i would sometimes want.

On a music site i have been part of for many years, this sort of thing is constant. And then when you call people on it -- usually young bio men -- the ensuing uproar makes it so not worth it. Talk about sensitive. God the number of times i have been called politically correct over there.

i guess it's partly the thread title, etc. i don't know.

One comment i have about the BV thing -- and this is entirely frivolous on my part -- is how glad i am that i am not involved. i think it may be productive discord, but it's just not worth it to me. i am glad there are young people and more political people who are willing to surrender some of their peace of mind to fight these battles. i am not right now.

[dark_crystal]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

i know what you mean- before i post anything in any thread that is not specifically "fluff," i quintuple-check every single word for anything that anyone might possibly be offended by.

then, i worry and worry about it and half the time find myself rushing back to the computer hoping it hasn't been 30 minutes yet and i can still edit

even taking these precautions, i've landed in hot water a few times and there is at least one of those incidents i STILL don't understand

i am not sure what it is. even going into a board meeting with all five of my bosses i wouldn't get as anxious as i do posting in "serious" threads

[tapu]

i know what you mean- before i post anything in any thread that is not specifically "fluff," i quintuple-check every single word for anything that anyone might possibly be offended by.

then, i worry and worry about it and half the time find myself rushing back to the computer hoping it hasn't been 30 minutes yet and i can still edit

even taking these precautions, i've landed in hot water a few times and there is at least one of those incidents i STILL don't understand

i am not sure what it is. even going into a board meeting with all five of my bosses i wouldn't get as anxious as i do posting in "serious" threads

It's hard to say anything of value under that kind of pressure or social risk. I either can't or won't monitor myself to that extent. Not sure what to do with that.

[BullDog]

I've been quite baffled. To me discussing what's going on with BV in here was quite natural, since it is a topic of interest to butch women, lesbians and our partners, friends and allies. I personally think of the Lesbian Zone that way- open to whatever lesbians and our friends are interested in talking about. I didn't care for being told it shouldn't be discussed here.

However the fluffiness and leaping certainly seems appropriate to me too and actually more in keeping with the original intent of the thread.

To those who don't want a serious discussion interrupted, I would think it would be more appropriate to voice those concerns in a thread dedicated to that specific serious discussion than here. That's just my opinion of course.

For threads not specifically devoted to one defined topic I don't see why multiple conversations can't be going on at the same time.

[Melissa]

Some of our members are having a difficult time seeing the lesbians in our community. Please step up, and let them know you are here.

Lesbian in the house :)


Melissa

[Heart]

As someone who was involved in the serious BV discussion in this thread,(and I don't think that was just about butches), I had NO issue with the light posts that were interjected. They didn't bother me one bit. Seems like a lot of energy has now been spent back-and-forth making assumptions about people's intent and scolding them.

But eh, happens all the time.

I can remember occasions when I did feel that someone's thread flirting was intruding on the conversation when I did feel fragile in threads, when I did police discussions, when I did storm off in a huff, when I did feel unfairly chastised or moderated, and when I most certainly did decide never to post on the boards again.

lol.

[tapu]

Tapu -- Your recent posts seem (to me) a little tantrumy, like "If I can't say what I want, then I don't want to say anything at all".



June--I don't think I should be allowed to say anything I want and I never even began to throw a "tantrum" about that. I said "Hey, how about them red sox?" and delivered it in a way that fit in perfectly with the flow of the thread. I wonder if the one person who took offense at that had been following the thread. It didn't seem that she got the context at all.

And then here's just something I ask you to consider: Was my saying that about the red sox really as offensive as you telling me I'm "tantrumy"? My remark was not to any one person, and was not an insult couched in terms of "to me."

I think that what's going on here is subtle in a lot of ways and I plan to reread and think about it, to see if there's something I think I should have done differently. Presently, I'm not feeling at fault.

[tapu]

No, not really. I see no distinction between 'tantrumy' and 'take your toys and go home.' And i think it's a side issue anyway. I would be more concerned about people feeling like they can't post without someone jumping down their throats. Regardless, I am planning to stick around and get more of a feel for things. I don't like to judge based on just a few experiences. I also believe that people can learn. Thank you for your responses.

[tapu]

I did pick up on that. Which is amazing since usually I'd be saying, "Red Sox, that's baseball, right? The round white ball with the pretty red stitching?"

[Daktari]

Baseball? Is that like rounders? :|

[tapu]

You have to remember that it's not the teeny white ball that people hit with the skinny stick. It's the bigger white ball that people hit with the larger stick.

Wait, what's the thread topic?

[girl_dee]

I am taking offense to the BEST baseball team in the history of baseball being used and abused in said June joke.

[Daktari]

You have to remember that it's not the teeny white ball that people hit with the skinny stick. It's the bigger white ball that people hit with the larger stick.



Not cricket then? :sunglass:

[Kobi]

I am taking offense to the BEST baseball team in the history of baseball being used and abused in said June joke.




I am a die-hard Red Sox fan. I am used to be used and abused and made haha at. It's part of our charm, history, and culture.

At least she wants us to get a butt load of touchdowns :twitch:

[Heart]

In reference to BV, I am cross-posting this blog link in a couple of threads.

http://butchenough.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/gender-is-a-landscape-not-a-line/

Carry on.

[OS Butch]

You have to remember that it's not the teeny white ball that people hit with the skinny stick. It's the bigger white ball that people hit with the larger stick.

Wait, what's the thread topic?


The wee white ball hitting with the little stick...That would be golf....Lesbians play golf, and I definitely leap when I make a birdie:)

[Dreams]

You have to remember that it's not the teeny white ball that people hit with the skinny stick. It's the bigger white ball that people hit with the larger stick.

Wait, what's the thread topic?

ok so isnt that pool?...:blink:

it's all about perception i suppose.

[dixie]

ok so isnt that pool?...:blink:

it's all about perception i suppose.

*perk* Ok, if it's pool I'll be leaping. I have a few sticks for that. Who's game? :D

[tapu]

Damn. I don't swim.

[OS Butch]

ok so isnt that pool?...:blink:

it's all about perception i suppose.

Oops, maybe I was wrong....I hate when that happens!:glasses:

[christie]

Waterwings rock.

[dark_crystal]

Waterwings rock.

marco! :titantic:

[Dreams]

*perk* Ok, if it's pool I'll be leaping. I have a few sticks for that. Who's game? :D

for the record...i'm refuse to get anywhere near Dixies sticks..it scares me just a bit..

P.S...POLO!!!

[tapu]

marco! :titantic:



I always wanted to name a cat Marco and then go around the neighborhood yelling, "Marco!"

[Jess]

I always wanted to name a cat Marco and then go around the neighborhood yelling, "Marco!"

oddly enough, the folks at our local Wally world think my name is Marco.... I get, em. lost. sometimes...:|

[Chazz]

In reference to BV, I am cross-posting this blog link in a couple of threads.

http://butchenough.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/gender-is-a-landscape-not-a-line/

Carry on.


These quotes lifted from BUTCH ENOUGH are kinda priceless:

"Clearly many female-identified butches at BV feel like there are issues around sexism/misogyny (among other points) that aren’t being addressed. And it is just as clear, based on the recent ouster, who holds the power in the organization."

"Any time you use a [linear] structure like ["masculine of center"], there is an implicit (or sometimes explicit) rating or ranking, that leaves some gender expressions as “more” and some as “less”. Thus, differences in expression of masculinity are quantitative rather than qualitative. That is, it becomes about different amounts of masculinity, rather than different kinds.

"[T]he official statement written by Butch Voices Board President Krys Freeman....explicitly casts female-identified butches as outsiders that BV is “working” to include. Apart from the absurdity of a large group of butches, probably a majority of butches, being outsiders in an organization called Butch Voices, recent events would suggest that these efforts to “include” female-identified butches are not very effective. Of course, mere inclusion shouldn’t really be the goal anyway. For Butch Voices to be the organization it claims to be, true power-sharing would have to happen. Female-identified butches would have to have equal footing in the organizational power structure, rather than be outsiders the organization is trying to include – on its own terms."

"If the BV board finds “butch” to be such a stigmatized term that they want to cover it over with “masculine of center” (a profoundly imperfect term in its own right), fine. But they should start with the name of the organization itself and leave the word “butch” to those of us who wear it with honor and with pride. Anything else is shameless hypocrisy."


Here's what I wish.... I wish people would stop acting like the stuff going on at BV is unusual.

[OS Butch]

I will cross post this to a couple other threads.

Lesbian Connection, aka LC, is a magazine I have superscribed to for years.
It arrives quarterly in my mailbox in an indiscreet manila envelope!
It is a quick read with only 50 pages. They are reprinting the series "Dykes to Watch out For"
The subscription fee is sliding scale free to anyone world wide and $42 for those that can afford it. Donations and gift subscriptions are appreciated!
I am not on the staff, I am just worried that without support, this little rag will vanish as has the woman's bookstores that use to be.

Elsie Publishing
EPI
PO Box 811
East
Lansing, Mi 48826
(517)371-5257 (M-F) noon- 6pm ET
elsiepub@aol.com

www.LConline.org

[MsTinkerbelly]

I am a Lesbian, in love with and married to a transgendered person...I am no less a Lesbian because of that fact.

Here I go, watch me proudly leap!

[nycfem]

BB and I love LC! Both of us have read it for years and years. It is very special!

I will cross post this to a couple other threads.

Lesbian Connection, aka LC, is a magazine I have superscribed to for years.
It arrives quarterly in my mailbox in an indiscreet manila envelope!
It is a quick read with only 50 pages. They are reprinting the series "Dykes to Watch out For"
The subscription fee is sliding scale free to anyone world wide and $42 for those that can afford it. Donations and gift subscriptions are appreciated!
I am not on the staff, I am just worried that without support, this little rag will vanish as has the woman's bookstores that use to be.

Elsie Publishing
EPI
PO Box 811
East
Lansing, Mi 48826
(517)371-5257 (M-F) noon- 6pm ET
elsiepub@aol.com

www.LConline.org

[Liam]

Sue Fink—Leaping Lesbians
w69PLfVOp5s

[citybutch]

I love me my Sue.. and I love me my Meg... but Sue LINK 1973? That woulda been Meg... No?



Sue Fink—Leaping Lesbians
w69PLfVOp5s

[Toughy]

I went and looked.........Sue Fink and Joelyn Grippo wrote the lyrics and music..........Meg recorded it and it's on the Lesbian Concentrate album....one of the must have records of lesbian herstory.

[citybutch]

Indeed! I knew Sue wrote it but it was Meg who recorded it. The video just said Sue Link.... or do I just need new glasses... which is a strong possibility!

I went and looked.........Sue Fink and Joelyn Grippo wrote the lyrics and music..........Meg recorded it and it's on the Lesbian Concentrate album....one of the must have records of lesbian herstory.

[dykeumentary]

Faggotgirl Does Crawford (http://faggotgirl.com/crawford/fg_camp_casey.htm)

This is a link to a photo essay about what a bunch of people --butches and Femmes very visibly so-- were doing in August 2005. I just wanted to send out a friendly, fun reminder about how much butches and Femmes have done over the years as leaders in justice movements for ALL people. This is just one example -- do you have other examples? Let's hear 'em!

[Dominique]

mbECOomyr-0&feature

[Reader]

mbECOomyr-0&feature

Excellent. Thanks for posting this.

[citybutch]

We're heading out on one of the 40th anniversary Olivia Cruises and Meg and Chris, along with a lot of other original Olivia performers, will be on Board!

Anyone else going?

Here's hoping Meg performs this classic!!! (Or Sue :) )

[JustBeingMe]

Leaping butch lesbian right here !!! LOL
That cruise sounds like fun. I'm not going so you'll have to let us know how it was when you get back.
Where is the cruise going anyway?
I would love to take a cruise on Olivia but sadly I can't afford the luxury. I will have to experience this vicariously via you and yours. Thanks.

And I remember those albums back when I was young. I used to listen to them with friends. Lots of fun and laughter with them back in the day. Kinda miss that part of my life, it was tons of fun.

[*Anya*]

I thought this was interesting. From Pink Taco Lovers, tumblr

Vocabulary, Euphemisms, and the Language of Lesbians

9 Ways the Early Twentieth-Century Newspaper

Reviewed Broadway Plays & Avoided Saying the “L” Word

“A Twisted Relationship” - New York Times, 1926
“A Warped Infatuation” - New York Times, 1926
“Tormenting Impulses” - World, 1926
“Bondage” - World, 1926
“The Poisonous Serpents Spell of Decadent Women” - Evening News, 1926
“A Cancerous Growth” - Daily News, 1926
“A Monstrous Sexual Perversion” - New York Evening Journal, 1934
“L—N” - New York Herald Tribune, 1934
“A Naughty Word” - New York Herald Tribune, 1934


16 (Ninetieth/Twentieth Century) Euphemisms for Lesbian Relationships

Smashes
Sentimental Friends
Special Friends
Romantic Friends
Two Hearts in Counsel
Love of Kindred Spirits
Boston Marriages
Urningin
Gynander
Viragint
Invert
Contrasexual
Androgne
Moderne
Roaring Girl
Female Adventurer
Lists From:

Richards, Dell. Lesbian Lists: A Look at Lesbian Culture, History, and Personalities. Boston: Alyson Publications, 1990

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

We're heading out on one of the 40th anniversary Olivia Cruises and Meg and Chris, along with a lot of other original Olivia performers, will be on Board!

Anyone else going?

Here's hoping Meg performs this classic!!! (Or Sue :) )

We are going on the 2nd week, from Feb 3-10th. Which cruise will you be on?

[LaDivina]

Wow, Meg and Cris...that brings back memories! I myself came out in the '90s, but a former partner of mine came out in the '70s, and introduced me to all kinds of women's music. Changer and the Changed still brings me comfort.

I can only imagine how much fun it'd be to be on an Olivia cruise, though a b-f one would be even better! Scorp & I aren't much for cruises, though.

We're heading out on one of the 40th anniversary Olivia Cruises and Meg and Chris, along with a lot of other original Olivia performers, will be on Board!

Anyone else going?

Here's hoping Meg performs this classic!!! (Or Sue :) )

[starryeyes]

I so wanna! I missed the last one that left out of San Diego, but went to an Olivia "pre" party, and told myself I won't miss it again! The only thing about Olivia is that they are SO expensive compared to "regular" cruises that go to the same ports. I work on cruise ships as a sign language interpreter, and two of my friends work on the Olivia ships. They have it "locked down" but if there is ever an opening, I am taking it!! Where is this one leaving from??

Have fun!!

We're heading out on one of the 40th anniversary Olivia Cruises and Meg and Chris, along with a lot of other original Olivia performers, will be on Board!

Anyone else going?

Here's hoping Meg performs this classic!!! (Or Sue :) )

[citybutch]

Same one!!!

We are going on the 2nd week, from Feb 3-10th. Which cruise will you be on?

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

Same one!!!

Oh man!!! That is so cool!!!!! We will have to meet up!

[TruTexan]

Count ME IN!! I'm a leaping butch lesbian and I love having lesbian sex :) with a wonderful femme I love. Right now there isn't anyone in my life at this time, I' single but I'm still a Proud leaping lesbian.!!

[TruTexan]

Count ME IN!! I'm a leaping butch lesbian and I love having lesbian sex :) with a wonderful femme I love. Right now there isn't anyone in my life at this time, I' single but I'm still a Proud leaping lesbian.!!

_9Itz80d7ec]

[LexiLove]

Here.

I don't usually leap. I do have a dance pole though.

[TruTexan]

Just bumping the thread tonight.......

[girllikeu2]

It is 6:15 in the morning. I am just now drinking coffee so there will be no leaping, buuuuut. Hello :)

[TruTexan]

Good morning to all of you, it's 6:16 am where I am this morning. I hope you all have a wonderful weekend.

[CherylNYC]

I inadvertently did a tiny leap in the playground today while watching lesbian friends watch their 16 month old twin girls play. I was wearing my leather jacket with an old-school denim overlay bearing the patch for our women's motorcycle club, of which I'm a founding member. I was on my way home from our annual Benefit Ride. This year we raised money for Queers For Economic Justice.

Yup. Some things don't change. Old school leaping lesbian here.

[*Anya*]

Given my knees, it's more like a lesbian shuffle but a lesbian none-the-less!

[Chinajewelry]

(I am willing to lick other womyn to see if they taste like lesbians)
[/COLOR][/B]


I would like to know what gay girls taste like compared to straight girls.... :tease:

I, too, am a lesbo :)

[tiaras-and-books]

Another femme lesbian here. :)

[*Anya*]

[quote=Chinajewelry;873636]

I would like to know what gay girls taste like compared to straight girls....

End quote


We are all the same, regardless of our orientation.

:cheerleader:

Sorry, having trouble making sense- need my coffee right now.

Bye from another lesbian not exactly leaping this morning.

[C0LLETTE]

I would like to know what gay girls taste like compared to straight girls.... :tease:

I, too, am a lesbo :)

I looked in on this thread and saw a post by "Stoney" in 2013 ( maybe 4 posts back from today cause this thread appears to have been dormant till revived today) saying they'd like to lick a lesbian ( or something) then this follow up by Chinajewelry about doing taste tests on women. I went a little ways back in the thread to see where this came from and saw nothing except posts about cruises, motorcycle club...

I have to say I'm a bit disturbed by those posts. Anyone else find them as offensive as I do? Was this meant to be funny?

[Tuff Stuff]

Oh gawd,I love lesbians..

:pacman:

[homoe]

I've got bad knees so I can't leap BUT I still try and let the other lesbians know I'm here:eyebat:

[*Anya*]

https://i.redd.it/12lf0geqb30z.jpg

[Steele]

Does anyone know how to find community offline? There doesn't seem to be any groups for butches or lesbians in general? (I'm assuming because it's more socially acceptable to be a lesbian? Idk)

[*Anya*]

Does anyone know how to find community offline? There doesn't seem to be any groups for butches or lesbians in general? (I'm assuming because it's more socially acceptable to be a lesbian? Idk)

Maybe because I live in the greater LA area but when I put "Lesbian Meet-Up Groups Los Angeles", at least 15 pop up and, weekly, I am notified of new ones in LA and Orange County.

There are also LGBTQ meet-ups, including ones that welcome trans folks.

Do you live in a metropolitan area?