Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[dykeumentary]

[quote=Chazz;388547]The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak

[JustJo]

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

Christie, I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone with my comments.

However....this current conversation about Butch Voices and the political, gender, community organizing, "speaking for others" and all of the other serious topics being discussed is happening in a thread entitled "Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians..." and now the conversation (as I understand it) is all about the inclusion of transpeople in a historically butch venue.

I would argue that the current conversation is the derail....and I'd like to get back to folks on the site stepping up and saying "hi, I'm a lesbian."

My description of myself is actually on point....and my light-hearted approach at the serious topic of saying....I am sick to fucking death of everyone trying to define how everyone else "should" be and what we should call ourselves and if we're femme enough or butch enough or what those terms even mean.

i define me.

You define you.

I say let anyone who claims the title butch define it for themselves.

And, just for me and I know I'm more than a little toey right now....I'm going back to my light-hearted lesbian leaping, in a thread with the title of the same name.

Thanks,
Jo, the leaping, cannon-balling, tough as nails and polka dot wearing lesbian

[*Anya*]

I, for one, am glad there is a thread where I can once again be reminded that I am a Lesbian, feminist, femme.

[Kobi]

Interesting how this thread didnt get too much traffic until the post about how butch lesbians are affected by and feel about what is happening at BV.

A 100% increase in pages in just a couple of days! Thats impressive.

I know why the butches are leaping but I'm not too sure why everyone else suddenly wants to leap. It's nice to see tho. :)

[dykeumentary]

The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak GENDERese - a language borne of gender theory.

Woman identified butches tend to speak in SEXUAL ORIENTATION-ese - a language based in sex/biology, lesbian/gay rights, and, in some cases, Feminism. That's okay, too.

What is NOT okay is the high echelon of "Butch Voices" (transgenderists) presuming to speak for BUTCHES. Not all butches - butches, period.

Butch is a term that speaks to sexual orientation, sex/ biology (femaleness) - not transgenderism. It's a full time, life long identity - not a way station on the road to maledom.

"BUTCH" has a long, hard fought, and precious HERitage that has nothing to do with transgenderism, except to the extent that the lesbian community has ceded use of the term to those who see it as a transitional, oft times, a convenient identifier on the way to maleness.

Butch is not that. It's a life-long identity that has to do with sexual orientation.

"For the life of me" seems to be the phrase in fashion, so I'll just say: For the life of me, how did a term based in sexual orientation get appropriated by folks who don't see themselves as lesbian?

Well, it's part and parcel to the imposed tagging around "cis" this and "cis" that. Now, the same folks who brought us "cis" are presuming to take ownership of (lesbian) butch identity and define that, too.

It's okay to call to call a foul, a foul. It's okay defend what rightfully belongs to you. That's not oppressive or being exclusionary. It's being self-respecting.

Vive Butch Nation.

Thats strange. I posted, but now the post is messed up and a 'thanks' is even gone. I'll see if i can remember it:

Is there some cultural/regional/ethnic aversion to the word "lesbian" among "the deciders" of BV? Anyone have any insight on this? I rarely see terms like "aggressive lesbian" and "stud lesbian" so i am curious. Is there a cultural reason that the word lesbian is being avoided? The "masculine of center" terminology seems like a way to take the sex out of it. Who wants that?

There's the idea that goes "means are the ends, and the journey shapes the destination". I think BV won't end up where it (or it's public relations firm) thinks they are going if their processs continues like they've handled this. Working against oppression requires naming and challenging oppression. BV is acting like its found a "market" in appropriating the word butch (women who continue to be oppressed), giving the word a new definition (one that they feel comfortable with), then having their "work" be paid for by the oppressed people. That is decidedly not liberation, but it might be "intellectual property".

I love the word "lesbian" and all the danger it implies. I'm so glad BV has given us lesbians the opportunity to be seen as dangerous once again. People should go if they want, but I'd rather be fighting oppression than "branding" it. And I'd rather be having hot lesbian sex.

[Heart]

I am mystified about why BV would jettison the word "butch" because it's been hurled at people in a derogatory or humiliating manner. Haven't most words related to queerdom been used that way? Like dyke, faggot, lezzie, the word queer itself?

But I guess screaming, "Fucking masculine-of-center!" doesn't quite work -- so maybe they have a point...? :blink:

[*Anya*]

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

[Jess]

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

Thank you. Reminders of why lesbians felt removed from the national feminist/ equal rights struggle are always a good thing. As I have thought about this thread the film If These Walls Could Talk Part 2 has come to mind a few times. Here is a description from Wiki regarding a section of that film that directly relates to this:

"1972
Linda (Michelle Williams), a young student, now shares the house with three friends, all lesbians. They face conflict with the feminist group they are part of when the other women do not want to include lesbian issues despite the fact that Linda and her friends helped to found the group and fought for free contraception on campus with their straight friends.
At a lesbian bar they have not been to before, they are surprised and disappointed to see women apparently fulfilling traditional butch and femme roles. They laugh at Amy (Chloë Sevigny), a young butch woman who is wearing a tie. Amy asks Linda to dance but she refuses while her friends are still there. The others soon leave and Linda stays behind and dances with Amy. Later, Amy gives Linda a ride home on her motorcycle and they kiss. Linda invites Amy to return the next day.
The next day Linda and the others are arguing with a woman from the feminist group when Amy arrives. Linda is embarrassed and is short with Amy who quickly leaves. Linda's friends tease her about Amy and question how they can be taken seriously as feminists if they associate with people like Amy. They cannot understand why a woman would dress like a man when they have fought so hard to escape such stereotypical roles.
Linda goes to Amy's house and apologizes. They sleep together. The next morning Linda sees a picture of Amy as a child, dressed like a boy. She asks Amy if Amy is supposed to be the man and Linda the woman. Amy says no and accuses Linda of being afraid that people will know what she is if she is seen with Amy.
Amy goes to Linda's house for dinner. Linda urges her friends to give Amy a chance but an awkward evening deteriorates when Linda's friends laugh at Amy and try to make her change her clothes. Amy leaves, upset. Linda follows her home and tells her that she was never ashamed of Amy, but only of herself. They reconcile."

If you have never seen the film, I highly recommend it. It has three parts, the above section is the second segment and one of the best filmed ( even if it is fictional) scenarios based on this divisive era.

Regarding what is and what is not "appropriate" content for this particular thread, I feel that it is pretty open to interpretation. The title and opening ( thank you Liam for creating it!) leaves ample room for ANY discussion Lesbians may want to engage in among one another. To conclude it is for just a role call ( hi, my name is ______ and I am a lesbian) is ok, if that is as far as you ( the reader) wish to take it. I have found that generally, after the howdys have taken place, other conversations will follow. I am pretty ok with seeing where the conversations go. It is how we grow.

[tapu]

Fantastic film. I can still see Chloe Sevigney's face when they try to dress her up femme.

[AtLast]

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

I remember it all very well! And now, I am a "woman identified feminist butch!"

Something I must bring up is that it was those very 1970's feminist activist lesbians, that brought gender and transgender theory out of the closet! Put it in the public eye. It always amazes me how historical facts get re-written. Every transgendered person can thank a Second Wave feminist for the entire emergence of gender identification variables, political view formation, services to and for, entry of laws protecting transpeople, etc. to the very lesbian feminists that so many, refer to with nothing but ignorance about historical facts.

Of course, feminism and gender theory must progress, stretch, and become relevant to each generation- but misrepresenting or vilifying its roots isn't growth- it is simply bigotry of another kind.

Ignorance remains bliss..........

[dark_crystal]

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

i love what the Radicalesbians did for us, but i admit to being disturbed when reading about political lesbianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism)(not to say the two are related!!!!), which taught that women should choose to be lesbian as a political statement. I kinda wish that hadn't happened

i feel like that pholosophy inadvertently got in the way of getting the message out that for many (most? all?) of us it is not a choice

and i feel like this kind of philosophy was also at work throughout the years i spent denying my attraction to butches, as it seemed expected that since i was choosing to be with a woman, i should choose one who fit the model of feminist political correctness ascendant in late 80s Texas.

[tapu]

Whenever a man has said to me--and this has happened more than once--"You just want to be a man," I say, "Well, that makes two of us."

[JustJo]

Regarding what is and what is not "appropriate" content for this particular thread, I feel that it is pretty open to interpretation. The title and opening ( thank you Liam for creating it!) leaves ample room for ANY discussion Lesbians may want to engage in among one another. To conclude it is for just a role call ( hi, my name is ______ and I am a lesbian) is ok, if that is as far as you ( the reader) wish to take it. I have found that generally, after the howdys have taken place, other conversations will follow. I am pretty ok with seeing where the conversations go. It is how we grow.

I agree...which is why I objected to being told that my posts (and Tapu's) were somehow "not okay" and the others were.

I'm fine with any and all posting. I don't come in and smack people for derailing...I simply post what I want to, and allow others to do the same.

It's a simple approach, and lends itself to acceptance rather than policing others....and I'm all for that.

If folks here want to discuss serious subjects...have at it. I simply objected to Christie's attempts to police the thread (and me).

:olive:

[Kobi]

I agree...which is why I objected to being told that my posts (and Tapu's) were somehow "not okay" and the others were.

I'm fine with any and all posting. I don't come in and smack people for derailing...I simply post what I want to, and allow others to do the same.

It's a simple approach, and lends itself to acceptance rather than policing others....and I'm all for that.

If folks here want to discuss serious subjects...have at it. I simply objected to Christie's attempts to police the thread (and me).

:olive:



For what it is worth, to me, it seems there are common courtesy and respect issues that would be nice to address here.

The lesbian zone and its threads are not very widely used. A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

In the midst of this, folks who rarely have the need to leap, suddenly needed to leap. I am a lesbian, so I am all for leaping.

However, if there was a serious conversation going on someplace about cancer treatment, it would not even occur to me to pop in and start a posting about the Red Sox.

And, I certainly would have a hard time getting bent out of shape if I wasnt responded to or if I got my hat handed to me on a sliver platter for having interrupted.

There is freedom here to go where we please and post where we want, when we want. But, to me, it doesnt over rule common courtesy and respect for others.

Just my take on things. Please, continue leaping.

[tapu]

For what it is worth, to me, it seems there are common courtesy and respect issues that would be nice to address here.

The lesbian zone and its threads are not very widely used. A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

In the midst of this, folks who rarely have the need to leap, suddenly needed to leap. I am a lesbian, so I am all for leaping.

However, if there was a serious conversation going on someplace about cancer treatment, it would not even occur to me to pop in and start a posting about the Red Sox.

And, I certainly would have a hard time getting bent out of shape if I wasnt responded to or if I got my hat handed to me on a sliver platter for having interrupted.

There is freedom here to go where we please and post where we want, when we want. But, to me, it doesnt over rule common courtesy and respect for others.

Just my take on things. Please, continue leaping.


Calling that common courtesy doesn't make it a neutral viewpoint. Real courtesy is mutual. Some of us in there leaping weren't disrespectful of those turning it into a platform for "butch voices" debate--no one said, "hey, wrong thread," now did they?--but at the same time when someone said anything else, it was squelched. To say that was the equivalent of interrupting a conversation about cancer to post about the Red Sox is at best hyperbole.

[tapu]

A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.




For the record, it had morphed into a discussion of who was getting paid or comped at this BV conference.

[JustJo]

For what it is worth, to me, it seems there are common courtesy and respect issues that would be nice to address here.

The lesbian zone and its threads are not very widely used. A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

In the midst of this, folks who rarely have the need to leap, suddenly needed to leap. I am a lesbian, so I am all for leaping.

However, if there was a serious conversation going on someplace about cancer treatment, it would not even occur to me to pop in and start a posting about the Red Sox.

And, I certainly would have a hard time getting bent out of shape if I wasnt responded to or if I got my hat handed to me on a sliver platter for having interrupted.

There is freedom here to go where we please and post where we want, when we want. But, to me, it doesnt over rule common courtesy and respect for others.

Just my take on things. Please, continue leaping.


Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

I'm not butch
I've never attended Butch Voices
I don't know any of the people involved
I don't know any of the history involved


I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

:olive:

[Nina]

this is not my forum....I read it since I am interested to know what people are saying 'n stuff...and sometimes I see the names of folks I stalk in here so I read it....(waves to Jo this morning)...

that said: it seems to me to be Very heavy handed, and pretty patronizing, to equate a line or two of lightness with coming into a cancer thread and talking baseball (I assume that's the red socks reference and not a fashion commentary?)...do we forget that one of the advantages of the internet is that we Do Not have to keep reading if we find, after the first few words, that what we are reading is not a good fit?...do we forget that when we are stern and do the public admonishment thing that other people, maybe some of the many folks who come and read and think and get something from this venue, may well think to themselves that they can't take the risk of posting lest they are deemed as not "enough" for the thread patrols?...

I have not said anything for a while, and not been sure If I had the 'right' to comment....this morning I feel I do...feel free to write this off to some 'oh that crazy-nina' thing...or,even better to have done, as I suggest and do myself, just stopped reading it when it became clear it was an annoyance or a derail or any other thing which didn't resonate...

[tapu]

Man, that Jo-babe really brings it. :)

[Incubus]

For the love of lesbians** lets leap....

Some lesbians like to do it groups...with pants on their heads
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2477306768_d7ab6dd44d_m.jpg

Some like to do it in pairs
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/4149333729_b73361e444_m.jpg

Some leap solo
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2356173442_82451bc7b2.jpg

Whether you favour the more traditional leap...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2226974022_00e888d21a_m.jpg

or the 'bomb'...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2233417424_7b3ed5fd87_m.jpg

if it makes you light-headed...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2322502090_0154861b21_m.jpg

Whatever you do don't jump ship, just keep on leaping!
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/scoobs63/2260953477_3da8d04060_m.jpg






**no lesbians of any ID were hurt in the making of this post.


I hope no-one is offended by a little levity in amongst the more serious discussion................normal service can now resumed.

[Kobi]

Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

I'm not butch
I've never attended Butch Voices
I don't know any of the people involved
I don't know any of the history involved


I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

:olive:



With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.

[JustJo]

With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.



Then we are in the same boat and, for the record, I don't use people as punching bags. I don't even use punching bags as punching bags. I simply speak my own mind, and invite you and everyone else to do the same.

[tapu]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

[Dreams]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

the dodgers look good this season...

[Gayla]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

[christie]

Jo -

I was going to respond to you in a PM as to not further derail, but it seems now this has become a conversation/topic for discussion.

I suppose you can call me a lot of things, but first and foremost, I tend to be respectful and kind to people. I find that moving thru the world is a lot easier if I treat people as I wish to be treated as opposed to quid pro quo.

I found (and still find) the silliness to be disrespectful. I didn't smack you on the hand or attempt to moderate. I simply identified a behavior that I see replicated time and time again that feels disrespectful and silencing TO ME.

Maybe I have some personal shit surrounding why to interrupt a conversation feels disrespectful - and I own that just as you have your stuff surrounding why you are offended by my comments on yours and tapu's posts. Maybe the two loves of my life (Jess and Bratboy) are both some kinda ADD and seem to CONSTANTLY interrupt me when I speak. We are both entitled to those feelings. If I am a little hypersensitive, then I do apologize; however, I don't think I was being overly sensitive to it based on the personal notes I got about my post. That's not me dragging someone into this, its me just saying, "Hey - I wasn't the only one."

Since this thread is not in the fluff category, I don't take it to be lighthearted, unless at the time, it is. In fact, until Kobi started a new thread (yesterday, maybe?) I do believe it was the only active thread in the Lesbian Zone.

Additionally, I had no clue there was another thread about the BV issues - I don't often read all the threads unless a new one happens to catch my eye on the front page.

I didn't see the conversations as being solely about BV. Honestly, the only time butch issues come into play for me is when they affect Jess. For the most part, I stay out of them, more because I am weary of "butch" being made less than or a stopping point on the road to male/trans. My tolerance for the pushing aside the butches in our online communities (feeding into real-time communities) is about nil.

I saw a couple of different issues being discussed more than BV and how they spend their money. I saw butches talking about how changing the venacular felt silencing and erasing. I saw conversations about why it matters if a transman heads up a group that was supposed to be about butches and the many faces of butch.

We can agree to disagree on your intent, but I would like to mention that if your intent was because you were "sick to fucking death of folks trying to define others" (not a precise quote) then why not just say that? I share your feeling of being sick to fucking death of labels and the ensuing discussions, interpretation of qualifiers, etc. I just chose not to engage in those conversations.

But, when those conversations are taking place in a thread I subscribe to, I usually don't get involved because I am liable to post that I am sick of them and that would be just as silencing and disrespectful to folks as I feel like the silly derails are...

I hope this makes it more clear for you that, like a whole lotta other folks contributing here, I saw something that felt disrespectful and simply pointed it out. I'm not sure what makes it wrong for me to do so and yet not others?

If you would like, we can continue this in PM.

[JustJo]

Hi Christie,

I appreciate you coming back in to clarify. I put my notes in purple to respond....because it just seems easier.

Jo -

I was going to respond to you in a PM as to not further derail, but it seems now this has become a conversation/topic for discussion.

I suppose you can call me a lot of things, but first and foremost, I tend to be respectful and kind to people. I find that moving thru the world is a lot easier if I treat people as I wish to be treated as opposed to quid pro quo.

I didn't call you anything negative, nor would I. I don't know you and don't have any experience in dealing with you at all. For me to speak negatively of a person takes a long history of negative experiences....not just a disagreement.

And, I agree. I try very hard to allow others to be themselves, and simply ask that they treat me the same way.

I found (and still find) the silliness to be disrespectful. I didn't smack you on the hand or attempt to moderate. I simply identified a behavior that I see replicated time and time again that feels disrespectful and silencing TO ME.

Okay....it felt like a smack on the hand, but if you say that you didn't mean it that way, then I can accept that.

Maybe I have some personal shit surrounding why to interrupt a conversation feels disrespectful - and I own that just as you have your stuff surrounding why you are offended by my comments on yours and tapu's posts. Maybe the two loves of my life (Jess and Bratboy) are both some kinda ADD and seem to CONSTANTLY interrupt me when I speak. We are both entitled to those feelings. If I am a little hypersensitive, then I do apologize; however, I don't think I was being overly sensitive to it based on the personal notes I got about my post. That's not me dragging someone into this, its me just saying, "Hey - I wasn't the only one."

I'm sure that there are many folks on both sides of the issues. Not to drag others into this...but I had many reps and PMs saying thank you as well. I think we can probably assume that we have a variety of opinions going on here since we have a variety of people here.

Since this thread is not in the fluff category, I don't take it to be lighthearted, unless at the time, it is. In fact, until Kobi started a new thread (yesterday, maybe?) I do believe it was the only active thread in the Lesbian Zone.

Additionally, I had no clue there was another thread about the BV issues - I don't often read all the threads unless a new one happens to catch my eye on the front page.

I'm pretty sure that there is one specifically about BV 2011 (by that name) and another that, I think, Medusa started about these kinds of conferences in general. Personally, I think that the conversation is important - and I never objected to it being here. I simply objected to the messaging that one conversation was "okay" and the other wasn't.

To me, that feels like policing.

I didn't see the conversations as being solely about BV. Honestly, the only time butch issues come into play for me is when they affect Jess. For the most part, I stay out of them, more because I am weary of "butch" being made less than or a stopping point on the road to male/trans. My tolerance for the pushing aside the butches in our online communities (feeding into real-time communities) is about nil.

Agreed. We're in the same boat on this.

I saw a couple of different issues being discussed more than BV and how they spend their money. I saw butches talking about how changing the venacular felt silencing and erasing. I saw conversations about why it matters if a transman heads up a group that was supposed to be about butches and the many faces of butch.

We can agree to disagree on your intent, but I would like to mention that if your intent was because you were "sick to fucking death of folks trying to define others" (not a precise quote) then why not just say that? I share your feeling of being sick to fucking death of labels and the ensuing discussions, interpretation of qualifiers, etc. I just chose not to engage in those conversations.

I didn't come in straight away and say "I'm sick to fucking death" because at the time of my original posting, that button hadn't been pushed. I was responding to a light-hearted post, in what started as a light-hearted thread. I didn't object to the heavier conversation, even though I personally believe it might fit better in another place, because I don't police people. I'm not a moderator. This isn't my site. This isn't even my thread.

And, I do engage in those conversations because I think it must be said. I see us (the BFP online community) doing an awful lot of the same behavior that we complain about the larger community doing to us. This bothers me. If we fragment and "other" parts of this community, we only weaken ourselves and contribute to the negative messaging that, no doubt, many of us have experienced for a very long time.

But, when those conversations are taking place in a thread I subscribe to, I usually don't get involved because I am liable to post that I am sick of them and that would be just as silencing and disrespectful to folks as I feel like the silly derails are...

Okay....this is a silencing statement - and I'm going to call you out on it. So, by what you're saying here...posting that I am sick of them is silencing and disrespectful, so I shouldn't do that. And "silly derails" are also silencing and disrespectful, so I shouldn't do that. So....what? I should toe the line and agree with everyone, or shut up? No thank you.

Do you see that what you're saying here is either that I should agree with everyone and go along entirely in the same vein or be quiet? Do you see how that's the very thing that I am objecting to?

I hope this makes it more clear for you that, like a whole lotta other folks contributing here, I saw something that felt disrespectful and simply pointed it out. I'm not sure what makes it wrong for me to do so and yet not others?

Christie....you can do what you like. You can say what you like. I'm not telling you to go along or be quiet. I'm not asking you to agree with me. Please feel free to post whatever you want to post. I will do the same. I'm not even asking you to like it, or me.

I objected to what you said. That means I disagreed with you. I can do that. And you can disagree with me too. And, just because....I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop with the "whole lotta other folks" thing. This isn't a popularity contest. This is a bunch of individuals speaking their minds. I'm not going to come in and recite how many PMs and reps I got. That isn't really the point, is it?

If you would like, we can continue this in PM.

I'm not sure how to say this to be really clear but ....what it boils down to for me....you are absolutely welcome to say whatever you like, even when you're disagreeing with me. I'll do the same. And that's truly okay with me.

[tapu]

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

[*Anya*]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

[claybaby]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

What she said!!! I totally agree!!!

[Gayla]

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

I thought my question was fairly direct and, honestly, I was hoping for a direct answer. If your intention was not to be disrespectful and I just, as I've been told in multiple rep comments, "misunderstood", then I would hope you would say that.

I find your comment about the fragility of members here to be deflective and dismissive of the fact that some people enjoy serious discussions and don't feel the need to just couch everything in humor.

One of the great things about this community is that there is room here for everyone, in whatever way they like to participate, as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Poking at folks, throwing the blame back at them and then threatening to flounce out, doesn't really come across as respectful.

[Incubus]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

:goodpost:, nay make that A Great Post!

[tapu]

I thought my question was fairly direct and, honestly, I was hoping for a direct answer. If your intention was not to be disrespectful and I just, as I've been told in multiple rep comments, "misunderstood", then I would hope you would say that.

I find your comment about the fragility of members here to be deflective and dismissive of the fact that some people enjoy serious discussions and don't feel the need to just couch everything in humor.

One of the great things about this community is that there is room here for everyone, in whatever way they like to participate, as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Poking at folks, throwing the blame back at them and then threatening to flounce out, doesn't really come across as respectful.

Okay. Well, I don't feel like I can say anything more about that.

[OS Butch]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?


Booooo!!!! How about those Nats.....:blink: Ok maybe not.:jester:

[Chancie]

Does it always end up being about the butches?

[Martina]

i had made some heartfelt angst-ridden comment before the lightness ensued and did do a double take. But that happens all the time. And some of the participants i noted were (to me) trusted members. So i just let it go. i don't feel that reacting to that makes me someone with heightened sensitivities. i didn't respond (though i did react) because i do not think we can manage people's participation to the degree that at least i would sometimes want.

On a music site i have been part of for many years, this sort of thing is constant. And then when you call people on it -- usually young bio men -- the ensuing uproar makes it so not worth it. Talk about sensitive. God the number of times i have been called politically correct over there.

i guess it's partly the thread title, etc. i don't know.

One comment i have about the BV thing -- and this is entirely frivolous on my part -- is how glad i am that i am not involved. i think it may be productive discord, but it's just not worth it to me. i am glad there are young people and more political people who are willing to surrender some of their peace of mind to fight these battles. i am not right now.

[dark_crystal]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

i know what you mean- before i post anything in any thread that is not specifically "fluff," i quintuple-check every single word for anything that anyone might possibly be offended by.

then, i worry and worry about it and half the time find myself rushing back to the computer hoping it hasn't been 30 minutes yet and i can still edit

even taking these precautions, i've landed in hot water a few times and there is at least one of those incidents i STILL don't understand

i am not sure what it is. even going into a board meeting with all five of my bosses i wouldn't get as anxious as i do posting in "serious" threads

[tapu]

i know what you mean- before i post anything in any thread that is not specifically "fluff," i quintuple-check every single word for anything that anyone might possibly be offended by.

then, i worry and worry about it and half the time find myself rushing back to the computer hoping it hasn't been 30 minutes yet and i can still edit

even taking these precautions, i've landed in hot water a few times and there is at least one of those incidents i STILL don't understand

i am not sure what it is. even going into a board meeting with all five of my bosses i wouldn't get as anxious as i do posting in "serious" threads

It's hard to say anything of value under that kind of pressure or social risk. I either can't or won't monitor myself to that extent. Not sure what to do with that.

[June]

I am not sure why people get so bent about having to think about what they post or self censoring.

Speaking from your "I" place is a great way to start. "This is how it feels for me" -- "This is my opinion" -- "Here is why I think this".

The thread title implies to me "Fun/Fluff". It's a fun title, it seems playful. As in most threads, sometimes serious stuff happens too.

Tapu -- Your recent posts seem (to me) a little tantrumy, like "If I can't say what I want, then I don't want to say anything at all".

It's kind of funny to me, because sometimes, I think if we didn't self censor a little bit, then a lot of people would be running around with their asses on fire.

The fact is, we don't get to say anything we want *here*. We do have to consider how other people will feel. We do owe at least a listen when people say "This hurts my feelings, and this is why".

If I were at a Party or gathering and I didn't know everyone there, I probably wouldn't bring up my love of pinching others till they cry. In fact, even if I did know everyone there, if I knew they overall didn't share my love of pinching, or appreciate it, then I wouldn't talk about it.

Here, if I want to talk about my love of pinching, there are threads for that, and like minded or curious people can go in and read. It is reasonable for me to expect if I post in a thread called "People who pinch and those who love to be pinched" that no one is going to come in and go "Ewwwwww! Pinching! That's just gross/mean (whatever)" or lecture me on how consensual pinching is abuse.

I've seen other people say "I'm afraid to post what I really feel". If it's that bad, maybe you shouldn't. Or, maybe it's just that you (general) need to be more thoughtful how you couch things. Even then, sometimes someone will crawl up your ass, but if we're engaging as adults, we can't reasonably expect that everyone will always agree with us about anything.

Disagreement over a topic does not have to equal not getting along in general. At least it doesn't for me. There are lots of people here and in person that I don't always agree with that I still like, or even love.

June (Not moderating)

[BullDog]

I've been quite baffled. To me discussing what's going on with BV in here was quite natural, since it is a topic of interest to butch women, lesbians and our partners, friends and allies. I personally think of the Lesbian Zone that way- open to whatever lesbians and our friends are interested in talking about. I didn't care for being told it shouldn't be discussed here.

However the fluffiness and leaping certainly seems appropriate to me too and actually more in keeping with the original intent of the thread.

To those who don't want a serious discussion interrupted, I would think it would be more appropriate to voice those concerns in a thread dedicated to that specific serious discussion than here. That's just my opinion of course.

For threads not specifically devoted to one defined topic I don't see why multiple conversations can't be going on at the same time.

[Melissa]

Some of our members are having a difficult time seeing the lesbians in our community. Please step up, and let them know you are here.

Lesbian in the house :)


Melissa

[Heart]

As someone who was involved in the serious BV discussion in this thread,(and I don't think that was just about butches), I had NO issue with the light posts that were interjected. They didn't bother me one bit. Seems like a lot of energy has now been spent back-and-forth making assumptions about people's intent and scolding them.

But eh, happens all the time.

I can remember occasions when I did feel that someone's thread flirting was intruding on the conversation when I did feel fragile in threads, when I did police discussions, when I did storm off in a huff, when I did feel unfairly chastised or moderated, and when I most certainly did decide never to post on the boards again.

lol.

[tapu]

Tapu -- Your recent posts seem (to me) a little tantrumy, like "If I can't say what I want, then I don't want to say anything at all".



June--I don't think I should be allowed to say anything I want and I never even began to throw a "tantrum" about that. I said "Hey, how about them red sox?" and delivered it in a way that fit in perfectly with the flow of the thread. I wonder if the one person who took offense at that had been following the thread. It didn't seem that she got the context at all.

And then here's just something I ask you to consider: Was my saying that about the red sox really as offensive as you telling me I'm "tantrumy"? My remark was not to any one person, and was not an insult couched in terms of "to me."

I think that what's going on here is subtle in a lot of ways and I plan to reread and think about it, to see if there's something I think I should have done differently. Presently, I'm not feeling at fault.

[June]

Tapu -- For me, I didn't care that you came in and said "How 'bout them red sox". I hope they get a butt load of touchdowns. ;)

But you did come in and say a couple of times in different ways "I don't want to censor myself" <--paraphrasing how I heard/read it and "This may not be the place for me". Okay, maybe it's not. Opinions vary, and I think you know what mine is based on our prior conversations.

Instead of Tantrumy, which sounds funny to me and is something I made up, perhaps I should have said that it sounded like threatening to take your toys and go home. What's the real word for that?

I think it's important for us all to remember that none of us speaks for the all. The derails bugged Christie and maybe a couple of others. They didn't bug everyone, but Christie gets to come in and talk about how that made her feel. Just like you get to come in and talk about how it made you feel.

Is that better?

[tapu]

No, not really. I see no distinction between 'tantrumy' and 'take your toys and go home.' And i think it's a side issue anyway. I would be more concerned about people feeling like they can't post without someone jumping down their throats. Regardless, I am planning to stick around and get more of a feel for things. I don't like to judge based on just a few experiences. I also believe that people can learn. Thank you for your responses.

[June]

Come on. I even made a Sports Joke!

Tough Crowd.

[tapu]

I did pick up on that. Which is amazing since usually I'd be saying, "Red Sox, that's baseball, right? The round white ball with the pretty red stitching?"

[Incubus]

Baseball? Is that like rounders? :|

[tapu]

You have to remember that it's not the teeny white ball that people hit with the skinny stick. It's the bigger white ball that people hit with the larger stick.

Wait, what's the thread topic?

[Cajun_dee]

I am taking offense to the BEST baseball team in the history of baseball being used and abused in said June joke.

[Incubus]

You have to remember that it's not the teeny white ball that people hit with the skinny stick. It's the bigger white ball that people hit with the larger stick.



Not cricket then? :sunglass:

[Kobi]

I am taking offense to the BEST baseball team in the history of baseball being used and abused in said June joke.




I am a die-hard Red Sox fan. I am used to be used and abused and made haha at. It's part of our charm, history, and culture.

At least she wants us to get a butt load of touchdowns :twitch:

[Heart]

In reference to BV, I am cross-posting this blog link in a couple of threads.

http://butchenough.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/gender-is-a-landscape-not-a-line/

Carry on.

[OS Butch]

You have to remember that it's not the teeny white ball that people hit with the skinny stick. It's the bigger white ball that people hit with the larger stick.

Wait, what's the thread topic?


The wee white ball hitting with the little stick...That would be golf....Lesbians play golf, and I definitely leap when I make a birdie:)

[Dreams]

You have to remember that it's not the teeny white ball that people hit with the skinny stick. It's the bigger white ball that people hit with the larger stick.

Wait, what's the thread topic?

ok so isnt that pool?...:blink:

it's all about perception i suppose.

[dixie]

ok so isnt that pool?...:blink:

it's all about perception i suppose.

*perk* Ok, if it's pool I'll be leaping. I have a few sticks for that. Who's game? :D

[tapu]

Damn. I don't swim.

[OS Butch]

ok so isnt that pool?...:blink:

it's all about perception i suppose.

Oops, maybe I was wrong....I hate when that happens!:glasses:

[christie]

Waterwings rock.

[dark_crystal]

Waterwings rock.

marco! :titantic:

[Dreams]

*perk* Ok, if it's pool I'll be leaping. I have a few sticks for that. Who's game? :D

for the record...i'm refuse to get anywhere near Dixies sticks..it scares me just a bit..

P.S...POLO!!!

[tapu]

marco! :titantic:



I always wanted to name a cat Marco and then go around the neighborhood yelling, "Marco!"

[Jess]

I always wanted to name a cat Marco and then go around the neighborhood yelling, "Marco!"

oddly enough, the folks at our local Wally world think my name is Marco.... I get, em. lost. sometimes...:|

[Chazz]

In reference to BV, I am cross-posting this blog link in a couple of threads.

http://butchenough.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/gender-is-a-landscape-not-a-line/

Carry on.


These quotes lifted from BUTCH ENOUGH are kinda priceless:

"Clearly many female-identified butches at BV feel like there are issues around sexism/misogyny (among other points) that aren’t being addressed. And it is just as clear, based on the recent ouster, who holds the power in the organization."

"Any time you use a [linear] structure like ["masculine of center"], there is an implicit (or sometimes explicit) rating or ranking, that leaves some gender expressions as “more” and some as “less”. Thus, differences in expression of masculinity are quantitative rather than qualitative. That is, it becomes about different amounts of masculinity, rather than different kinds.

"[T]he official statement written by Butch Voices Board President Krys Freeman....explicitly casts female-identified butches as outsiders that BV is “working” to include. Apart from the absurdity of a large group of butches, probably a majority of butches, being outsiders in an organization called Butch Voices, recent events would suggest that these efforts to “include” female-identified butches are not very effective. Of course, mere inclusion shouldn’t really be the goal anyway. For Butch Voices to be the organization it claims to be, true power-sharing would have to happen. Female-identified butches would have to have equal footing in the organizational power structure, rather than be outsiders the organization is trying to include – on its own terms."

"If the BV board finds “butch” to be such a stigmatized term that they want to cover it over with “masculine of center” (a profoundly imperfect term in its own right), fine. But they should start with the name of the organization itself and leave the word “butch” to those of us who wear it with honor and with pride. Anything else is shameless hypocrisy."


Here's what I wish.... I wish people would stop acting like the stuff going on at BV is unusual.

[OS Butch]

I will cross post this to a couple other threads.

Lesbian Connection, aka LC, is a magazine I have superscribed to for years.
It arrives quarterly in my mailbox in an indiscreet manila envelope!
It is a quick read with only 50 pages. They are reprinting the series "Dykes to Watch out For"
The subscription fee is sliding scale free to anyone world wide and $42 for those that can afford it. Donations and gift subscriptions are appreciated!
I am not on the staff, I am just worried that without support, this little rag will vanish as has the woman's bookstores that use to be.

Elsie Publishing
EPI
PO Box 811
East
Lansing, Mi 48826
(517)371-5257 (M-F) noon- 6pm ET
elsiepub@aol.com

www.LConline.org

[MsTinkerbelly]

I am a Lesbian, in love with and married to a transgendered person...I am no less a Lesbian because of that fact.

Here I go, watch me proudly leap!

[nycfembbw]

BB and I love LC! Both of us have read it for years and years. It is very special!

I will cross post this to a couple other threads.

Lesbian Connection, aka LC, is a magazine I have superscribed to for years.
It arrives quarterly in my mailbox in an indiscreet manila envelope!
It is a quick read with only 50 pages. They are reprinting the series "Dykes to Watch out For"
The subscription fee is sliding scale free to anyone world wide and $42 for those that can afford it. Donations and gift subscriptions are appreciated!
I am not on the staff, I am just worried that without support, this little rag will vanish as has the woman's bookstores that use to be.

Elsie Publishing
EPI
PO Box 811
East
Lansing, Mi 48826
(517)371-5257 (M-F) noon- 6pm ET
elsiepub@aol.com

www.LConline.org

[Liam]

Sue Fink—Leaping Lesbians
w69PLfVOp5s

[citybutch]

I love me my Sue.. and I love me my Meg... but Sue LINK 1973? That woulda been Meg... No?



Sue Fink—Leaping Lesbians
w69PLfVOp5s

[Toughy]

I went and looked.........Sue Fink and Joelyn Grippo wrote the lyrics and music..........Meg recorded it and it's on the Lesbian Concentrate album....one of the must have records of lesbian herstory.

[citybutch]

Indeed! I knew Sue wrote it but it was Meg who recorded it. The video just said Sue Link.... or do I just need new glasses... which is a strong possibility!

I went and looked.........Sue Fink and Joelyn Grippo wrote the lyrics and music..........Meg recorded it and it's on the Lesbian Concentrate album....one of the must have records of lesbian herstory.

[dykeumentary]

Faggotgirl Does Crawford (http://faggotgirl.com/crawford/fg_camp_casey.htm)

This is a link to a photo essay about what a bunch of people --butches and Femmes very visibly so-- were doing in August 2005. I just wanted to send out a friendly, fun reminder about how much butches and Femmes have done over the years as leaders in justice movements for ALL people. This is just one example -- do you have other examples? Let's hear 'em!

[Dominique]

mbECOomyr-0&feature

[Hunter Green]

mbECOomyr-0&feature

Excellent. Thanks for posting this.