D/s-M/s-D/g: Questions about philosophical underpinnings-type stuff

[dark_crystal]

some things i've been wrestling with, contribute if you can

1) (service) D/s and laziness

my service feels much more like a gift and an honor when i know that if i don't perform a service, my Dom will have to do it. When i know that, i feel that i am gifting them with, not only the service itself, but an easier life in general and the luxury of unstructured time, etc. That idea wraps the gift up in silver and gold sparkly ribbons for me and i feel deeply fulfilled by giving it, like i am creating something wonderful in our pristine, gracious, well-run home.

After i had some time to observe my ex and saw that she was just plain lazy, my gift felt devalued. I did not feel like my performing a service meant giving the gift of time, ease, not having to do it herself, etc. I did not feel like she would have to do it if i didn't- i felt like if i didn't do it it just wouldn't get done, and that she would be more willing to live in the filth that would result than to do it herself. I felt like instead of giving her a gift i was rescuing us both from the bad consequences of her laziness. This is a much less special feeling.


2) D/s and character
i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything. After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?

am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?


3) D/s and codependency

Am i into D/s because it enables my codependency? It is a known issue with me that i fear confrontation and i am unable to act in a way that others will find displeasing, even if i really want to and i end up resenting those others for their smallmindedness or whatever makes them mistakenly displeased. Am i seeking D/s as a way to create an environment that turns those qualities into virtues instead of confronting them as the maladaptive coping strategies they are?

4) 24/7 service slaves with professions

is it really possible? No, REALLY??? i am not talking about a job or a sub working to pay her half of the bills, i am talking about a profession, something that goes beyond a job or even a career to become a part of your identity. Something you do for the love of it and you just happen to get paid. i am talking about holding a position that comes home with you, either in terms of bringing actual work home, like a teacher, or just requiring so much high-level thinking that you cannot come in the least little bit burned out in the morning- and arriving at work in this condition is going to impose certain limitations on your off hours in terms of sleeping and wind-down time, etc. These tings change the slave's availibilty to the Master. It seems like 364 days a year you could probably get away with this but there is going to come a day when the Master gets upset, isn't there?

[Tommi]

The word exchange surfaces, rolls over and under again as I read your post.
Be it total, partial or non-existent, I balance with equal.

A submissive's depth (intensity) being equated to the level of responsibility (intensity) as generated by the Dominant is the underpinning I desire and she deserves.

[Martina]

Dominants are not supposed to take advantage of you. If you work, then service is supposed to accommodate that unless it is decided you don't work.

Your life should be balanced. It it's not. If it's all work at work and all work at home, then something needs to change. Time for negotiations.

If the Dominant is just exploiting you for labor, then . . . probably time to go.

i have heard about this on Fetlife, and i supposed i once danced close to it -- or twice. But it was my fault for not speaking up about not having enough time for other things.

Dominants make compromises too. Slaves get sick. They get hurt. They have difficult jobs. They have children. There is no assumption that being a Master means that this one slave is going to make your life everything you want it to be at the cost of his or her own happiness and health. That's not what it's about.

And if you want the Master to do something that they don't want to do -- which it sounds like you do -- then i say give it up. Live with the house less dirty. Most Masters will clean along side of you if need be. But if the Master won't do it, you have to decide whether you want to live with it dirty or burn out. Lots of people in all kinds of relationships have to make that call.

[The_Lady_Snow]

some things i've been wrestling with, contribute if you can

1) (service) D/s and laziness

my service feels much more like a gift and an honor when i know that if i don't perform a service, my Dom will have to do it. When i know that, i feel that i am gifting them with, not only the service itself, but an easier life in general and the luxury of unstructured time, etc. That idea wraps the gift up in silver and gold sparkly ribbons for me and i feel deeply fulfilled by giving it, like i am creating something wonderful in our pristine, gracious, well-run home.

After i had some time to observe my ex and saw that she was just plain lazy, my gift felt devalued. I did not feel like my performing a service meant giving the gift of time, ease, not having to do it herself, etc. I did not feel like she would have to do it if i didn't- i felt like if i didn't do it it just wouldn't get done, and that she would be more willing to live in the filth that would result than to do it herself. I felt like instead of giving her a gift i was rescuing us both from the bad consequences of her laziness. This is a much less special feeling.

What made your ex lazy? I am asking since sometimes it feels to *me* that the Dom always gets the blame, so since the Dominant in question is not here I would like to ask what made her lazy in your eyes? Did you know of these behaviours? If they were living in filth before why did this not flip a red flag for you?

I ask because I am not a Dom because I can't do it myself.


2) D/s and character
i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything. After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?

I have to ask.... If after 3 relationships you are experiencing low levels of Mastery, and you seem better at it why not be honest and say, I believe you are not the right Dom for me. Exit. stage right. What makes you think that Doms do not practice their vocation everyday? I am truly curious

am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?

Why serve someone who is not filling *your* needs?


3) D/s and codependency

Am i into D/s because it enables my codependency? It is a known issue with me that i fear confrontation and i am unable to act in a way that others will find displeasing, even if i really want to and i end up resenting those others for their smallmindedness or whatever makes them mistakenly displeased. Am i seeking D/s as a way to create an environment that turns those qualities into virtues instead of confronting them as the maladaptive coping strategies they are

I am going to be honest, if you are co dependent, D/s is not for you.. I am going to be honest that unless you are transparent in a D/s dynamic then you are going to run into a brick wall. I am also hearing that it's always the Dom's fault and not yours, not saying it is not so but I will be honest it takes two in this dynamic

4) 24/7 service slaves with professions

is it really possible? No, REALLY??? i am not talking about a job or a sub working to pay her half of the bills, i am talking about a profession, something that goes beyond a job or even a career to become a part of your identity. Something you do for the love of it and you just happen to get paid. i am talking about holding a position that comes home with you, either in terms of bringing actual work home, like a teacher, or just requiring so much high-level thinking that you cannot come in the least little bit burned out in the morning- and arriving at work in this condition is going to impose certain limitations on your off hours in terms of sleeping and wind-down time, etc. These tings change the slave's availibilty to the Master. It seems like 364 days a year you could probably get away with this but there is going to come a day when the Master gets upset, isn't there?

I have 2 boys, both with careers, not easy careers and are in service 24/7. They are slaves. They bring their work home, they know their schedules. It is going to sound ugly, they knew coming into our dynamic this is what it's going to be, I give them the allowance to deal with their work because as their Owner it is my responsibility they do their jobs like I do mine. I do get upset with them at times, and I am harsh with them, and I yell at them but not once during that time, do I see them faltering nor do I think they have failed, they got off track and I gently guide them back. It's my job to keep them just as happy as they keep me.

I have to say this.... I hope you take some time off, examine yourself deep, and I do hope you find the right person who will fit the kind of submissive you are.

Good luck

[NicolaitheMorbid]

some things i've been wrestling with, contribute if you can


4) 24/7 service slaves with professions

is it really possible? No, REALLY??? i am not talking about a job or a sub working to pay her half of the bills, i am talking about a profession, something that goes beyond a job or even a career to become a part of your identity. Something you do for the love of it and you just happen to get paid. i am talking about holding a position that comes home with you, either in terms of bringing actual work home, like a teacher, or just requiring so much high-level thinking that you cannot come in the least little bit burned out in the morning- and arriving at work in this condition is going to impose certain limitations on your off hours in terms of sleeping and wind-down time, etc. These tings change the slave's availibilty to the Master. It seems like 364 days a year you could probably get away with this but there is going to come a day when the Master gets upset, isn't there?

ok so I just want to say that I hate the phrase "24/7" because it implies I never sleep or some crazy thing.

I am a supervisor, in retail, as my way of bringing in money to my house. I say my house because I don't live with my Ms, but I live close.

My Ms doesn't fault me or yell at me if I come home burned out. There are days I get trucks in with massive amounts of heavy product in and I have to lift them. There are holiday seasons where I barely see daylight because I go to work and come home when its dark and then I bring home my study materials to read while I'm in my PJs and I don't clean and on my days off I don't shower and get dressed or groom myself in any way because I'm just too damn tired.

No matter what I do, when I am off the clock I'm still at work. I field phone calls, text messages, and there's always something running through my mind. On top of that, I come home and I've got my responsibilities to my Ms. Maybe She wants me to make dinner, maybe She needed me to stop and get ice, maybe it's hormone hell week and She is letting me run to the store for feminine things to freak out the cashier because I think it's fun....

I get burned out, I don't sleep much at night, the other night I crashed at 6 and didn't get up til 830 IN THE MORNING to recharge. I didn't get yelled at or punished for it, because She understands that I am human, I have my limitations, and I give my job the same 110% as I give my service.

I am going to use this blanket statement for you because it's what I feel...

if you are faulted for being human, if service is your excuse to indulge your codependency, if you are better at life in general than your Dominant and you are feeling that your Dominant is just lazy...you're in the wrong place and need to move on.

I see you have, but I feel like you are leaving the blame to your Dominant for your lack of comfort, happiness, and ability to be a healthy human being. As a slave, I don't think that's fair at all.

I'm more than happy to talk with you about this if you like and if my Ms allows, I am more than happy to engage in healthy discussion. I don't take offense to anything you've said, I just think perhaps your experiences have been different than mine and you have been in the wrong place so far and when you find the right place...things will make more sense

just my guess and my gut feeling, No disrespect to you or your journey and I hope that you do find a happy and healthy place to rest your head.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have a LOT more questions when you log back in.. I hope this dialogue is continued.

[Martina]

i have never had a lazy Dominant. i have been worked hard, but i have never had a lazy Dominant. i have heard of them though -- on fetlife. i have never had a friend who was a Dominant or a submissive report first hand experience with one either.

i had one who was a workaholic and anxious about work and housework. There were nights when we did stuff till 11pm. BUT she was right there beside me.

In most of my experience, Dominants are very careful of their property. i just had several months of finishing up a project. My service was to do a good job on it. And it will serve Them in the long run. i will be able to support myself, have health insurance, etc. It was a teaching credential.

Right now, i am getting healthy again so i can serve Them. i can't serve if i am not healthy. They are extremely patient and want only the best for me.

[dark_crystal]

A submissive's depth (intensity) being equated to the level of responsibility (intensity) as generated by the Dominant is the underpinning I desire and she deserves.

this reasonates with me...thank you Mr. Tommi

There is no assumption that being a Master means that this one slave is going to make your life everything you want it to be at the cost of his or her own happiness and health. That's not what it's about.

this reasonates with me...thank you Martina...it reminds me of something i heard at my very first M/s workshop- that a Master needs to already "have their sh!t together" before taking on a slave, that they couldn't expect a slave to do that for them

I give them the allowance to deal with their work because as their Owner it is my responsibility they do their jobs like I do mine.

I have to say this.... I hope you take some time off, examine yourself deep, and I do hope you find the right person who will fit the kind of submissive you are.

Good luck

thank You for Your words...i am aware of the "victim" tone...these questions have been on my flash drive for moths and some of them were written maybe too soon after the release to be objective, i revised some but i guess not enough, mostly i just wanted to get this out there...i am having a "writing weekend" and this file seemed more appropriate for a forum than my blog

and i have declared a 2 year time out, actually AND i am seeing a therapist (sigh)



I get burned out, I don't sleep much at night, the other night I crashed at 6 and didn't get up til 830 IN THE MORNING to recharge. I didn't get yelled at or punished for it, because She understands that I am human, I have my limitations, and I give my job the same 110% as I give my service.

I am going to use this blanket statement for you because it's what I feel...

if you are faulted for being human, if service is your excuse to indulge your codependency, if you are better at life in general than your Dominant and you are feeling that your Dominant is just lazy...you're in the wrong place and need to move on.

I see you have, but I feel like you are leaving the blame to your Dominant for your lack of comfort, happiness, and ability to be a healthy human being. As a slave, I don't think that's fair at all.

i snipped out the part where you mention burnout because it has just been such a huge issue with me and i have felt like when i am in service i live my life one millimeter from burnout at all times. And i am sure you know how bad of an idea it can be to supervise a business (and people!) in that condition

thanks to you also Nicolai, i think my reply to your Owner applies to your post, too. i would be interested in continuing dialogue with you



In most of my experience, Dominants are very careful of their property. i just had several months of finishing up a project. My service was to do a good job on it. And it will serve Them in the long run. i will be able to support myself, have health insurance, etc. It was a teaching credential.

Congratulations!!!

[dark_crystal]

D/s and codependency

Am i into D/s because it enables my codependency? It is a known issue with me that i fear confrontation and i am unable to act in a way that others will find displeasing, even if i really want to and i end up resenting those others for their smallmindedness or whatever makes them mistakenly displeased. Am i seeking D/s as a way to create an environment that turns those qualities into virtues instead of confronting them as the maladaptive coping strategies they are?


The question remains...am i using D/s as a mask for codependency, or are those qualities which might be mistakenly called codependency i the vanilla world actually those things that make me a natural submissive, and therefore misdiagnosed?

there is that famous quote/journal prompt, the attribution of which i do not recall "a submissive needs to be told what to do, and slave needs to do as they're told"

that is so true of me, and kind of what i mean by saying "i am unable to act in a way that others will find displeasing"

i don't need to be given directions, i have my own very clear ideas about what needs to be done, but if my partner does not agree with my ideas, i am unable to act on them, even in past vanilla relationships where it was expected that i would.

(the whole fear of confrontation this HAS lead to some maladaptive coping and is being addressed by the professionals)

[dark_crystal]

For D/g or D/s or M/s, it is necessary that the Daddy have “real” authority?

Am I supposed to submit to you because of your powerful personality, my sexual attraction to you, or my positive regard/like/love for you?

Or do you need to be qualified to take authority over my life? Or are we just role-playing?

Does a girl submit to her Daddy because that is her nature or because the Daddy is “worthy” of her submission?

What makes someone “worthy” of submission?

Moral philosphers say "Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the good of the governed person. The governed person confers authority on the figure they judge to be most capable of determining and delivering their "good.” In order to guarantee continued obedience, the authority must consistently demonstrate their ability to determine the nature of this "good" and to deliver it to the governed in a manner superior to that which the governed could provide for him/herself.

Administrative theory says "top-down authority assumes inherents virtues at the top that those who are asked to obey are able to recognize and value sufficiently to continue to obey"

so, where is a Dominant's authority located? R]

[The_Lady_Snow]

For D/g or D/s or M/s, it is necessary that the Daddy have “real” authority?

Am I supposed to submit to you because of your powerful personality, my sexual attraction to you, or my positive regard/like/love for you?

Or do you need to be qualified to take authority over my life? Or are we just role-playing?

Does a girl submit to her Daddy because that is her nature or because the Daddy is “worthy” of her submission?

What makes someone “worthy” of submission?

Moral philosphers say "Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the good of the governed person. The governed person confers authority on the figure they judge to be most capable of determining and delivering their "good.” In order to guarantee continued obedience, the authority must consistently demonstrate their ability to determine the nature of this "good" and to deliver it to the governed in a manner superior to that which the governed could provide for him/herself.

Administrative theory says "top-down authority assumes inherents virtues at the top that those who are asked to obey are able to recognize and value sufficiently to continue to obey"

so, where is a Dominant's authority located? R]



So I have to ask

Are we doing your assignments for you???

[dark_crystal]

So I have to ask

Are we doing your assignments for you???

lol! no Ma'am!!! i don't have anyone to give me assignments! i am just a very cerebral person and, during my self-imposed "time out", i am trying to intellectually process what i havelearned since February of 2007 (when i realized i was going to walk this path)

i am very aware of my intellectual blind spots, though, and lots of times when i share thoughts that i feel fairly sure of i end up ebing totally blindsided by aspects of same that are glaringly obvious to whoever i am sharing wiht

so i am asking for input from the community so i can see what i might otherwise miss (and get alled on my bullsh!t if needed)

[The_Lady_Snow]

lol! no Ma'am!!! i don't have anyone to give me assignments! i am just a very cerebral person and, during my self-imposed "time out", i am trying to intellectually process what i havelearned since February of 2007 (when i realized i was going to walk this path)

i am very aware of my intellectual blind spots, though, and lots of times when i share thoughts that i feel fairly sure of i end up ebing totally blindsided by aspects of same that are glaringly obvious to whoever i am sharing wiht

so i am asking for input from the community so i can see what i might otherwise miss (and get alled on my bullsh!t if needed)


Have *you* answered the questions you posted?

[SuperFemme]

lol! no Ma'am!!! i don't have anyone to give me assignments! i am just a very cerebral person and, during my self-imposed "time out", i am trying to intellectually process what i havelearned since February of 2007 (when i realized i was going to walk this path)

i am very aware of my intellectual blind spots, though, and lots of times when i share thoughts that i feel fairly sure of i end up ebing totally blindsided by aspects of same that are glaringly obvious to whoever i am sharing wiht

so i am asking for input from the community so i can see what i might otherwise miss (and get alled on my bullsh!t if needed)


you could ask fifty people and get fifty different answers.

none of them would be wrong.

the only right answers for you though is how you answer.

i don't know you, but if feels to *me* like you trusted the wrong people to give the gift of you to.

it happens, even to the best of us, and most especially in liasons started on the interwebz.

i really hope you come out the other side of this self imposed time out with what you are seeking.

good luck.

[daisygrrl]

D.C.--
I want to respond to your questions about codependency and submission/service; but, before I do, I would like to say something else. I completely empathize with your desire to please. That desire has been the core of my being since before I can remember. But, when your act (gift) of pleasing does not suit your own best interest (as Lady Snow has suggested), you should seek a more suitable Dom/Domme/Master/Mistress/Top, etc. That does not mean your desires—or Her, Hys, Ze’s, etc.—are necessarily “wrong.”

I hate confrontation. Abhor it. Discussion—heated discussion, even—I can handle. Name-calling, anger…no. But, ironically, I’m “getting better at it” and not shying away from it now, as I would have two or so years ago. Because I feel like “more” of myself. All of this brings me full-circle to the discussion of codependency & submission/service. Why do I enjoy submitting—is it a “cop-out”? Hell, no. As you already know, it requires a lot of effort and self-introspection. But I often think that the finer argument—that submissives benefit in a myriad of ways—from their self-embraced position and identity is glossed over. Yes, it’s okay to require someone give you what you need and want—as a submissive; that’s part of creating a “contract” or agreement, etc.
I hope that some/any of this resonates with you; but, regardless, keep doing the “hard homework,” and it will “pay off”!

Wishing you well on your journey(s),
daisy

[dark_crystal]

Have *you* answered the questions you posted?


only the first one...which i now see is not actually a question...the others are concepts i am genuinely confused about, or "of two minds" about

i do see where, in both of the formal D/s relationships i have been in, i was so hungry for experience that i overlooked a lot of red flags that were right in my face, and my sense of outrage later on seems disingenuous

[dark_crystal]

D.C.--
I want to respond to your questions about codependency and submission/service; but, before I do, I would like to say something else. I completely empathize with your desire to please. That desire has been the core of my being since before I can remember. But, when your act (gift) of pleasing does not suit your own best interest (as Lady Snow has suggested), you should seek a more suitable Dom/Domme/Master/Mistress/Top, etc. That does not mean your desires—or Her, Hys, Ze’s, etc.—are necessarily “wrong.”

I hate confrontation. Abhor it. Discussion—heated discussion, even—I can handle. Name-calling, anger…no. But, ironically, I’m “getting better at it” and not shying away from it now, as I would have two or so years ago. Because I feel like “more” of myself. All of this brings me full-circle to the discussion of codependency & submission/service. Why do I enjoy submitting—is it a “cop-out”? Hell, no. As you already know, it requires a lot of effort and self-introspection. But I often think that the finer argument—that submissives benefit in a myriad of ways—from their self-embraced position and identity is glossed over. Yes, it’s okay to require someone give you what you need and want—as a submissive; that’s part of creating a “contract” or agreement, etc.
I hope that some/any of this resonates with you; but, regardless, keep doing the “hard homework,” and it will “pay off”!

Wishing you well on your journey(s),
daisy

i am hoping that my work with my therapist will help me to resolve this...because a lot of my fear is just baggage from my childhood and my early relationships, where anger was too often a scorched earth situation, and i learned that when anger enters the equationn there is no limit to how far the other person will take it....so i have a morbid fear that has hopefully outlived its usefulness

thanks so much for your words {{{hugs}}}

[The_Lady_Snow]

i am hoping that my work with my therapist will help me to resolve this...because a lot of my fear is just baggage from my childhood and my early relationships, where anger was too often a scorched earth situation, and i learned that when anger enters the equationn there is no limit to how far the other person will take it....so i have a morbid fear that has hopefully outlived its usefulness

thanks so much for your words {{{hugs}}}



I am going to be honest here again

This sounds personal, and since the Dom in question is not here to tell their side, it becomes unfair..

When I read words like:

" i learned that when anger enters the equationn there is no limit to how far the other person will take it"

I want to grab my boy by the scruff and back the fuck out real o' quick, cause it throws red flags all over the place for me..

[The_Lady_Snow]

only the first one...which i now see is not actually a question...the others are concepts i am genuinely confused about, or "of two minds" about

i do see where, in both of the formal D/s relationships i have been in, i was so hungry for experience that i overlooked a lot of red flags that were right in my face, and my sense of outrage later on seems disingenuous


Would you like me to be honest about this as well?

[apretty]

i don't think a co-dependent person can service.

as someone with coda issues, i don't think it's safe for you to be in a bdsm relationship: you're not going to choose a top/daddy/whatever carefully, you're not going to be critical when you see red flags, you're not going to give from a place that is totally consensual because you give from a place of co-dependency.

i like that you're working on your coda issues, and i would in the future, disclose those tendencies when you think you've met someone that you feel some chemistry with--any good partner is NOT going to take advantage of the coda-stuff and i would seriously look for someone that's had some therapy, his/herself.

and, in reality there's plenty of people that are co-dependent in the bdsm world--but it's gross and lame when people are 'using' each other *just* to recreate old mommy/daddy shit that they could instead be dealing with, with a good therapist.

best of luck!

[sweetcali]

I have to agree with Lady Snow in that it appears that you are blaming a Dom for whom can not speak up about their experience within your equation.

I agree with SuperFemme in that you can take as many surveys as you want eventually you will hear the one you want. If you are serious about your self imposed time out from service might I suggest that you attend some Leather workshops, classes, attend a few munches. Instead of jumping right back into service full time.

I used to perform service as needed because my life had changed to the point that 24/7 was not what I was able to give; however I still had the need for service. So I would perform service such as helping out at the flea, assisting with something else here and there. What this did was give me the opportunity to fulfill my need for service and also gave me the opportunity to learn.

So again might I suggest that instead of finding your answers online only; that you take some time to get out there in real time and attend workshops, classes, munches, etc.

sweetcali

[dark_crystal]

I have to agree with Lady Snow in that it appears that you are blaming a Dom for whom can not speak up about their experience within your equation.

I agree with SuperFemme in that you can take as many surveys as you want eventually you will hear the one you want. If you are serious about your self imposed time out from service might I suggest that you attend some Leather workshops, classes, attend a few munches. Instead of jumping right back into service full time.

I used to perform service as needed because my life had changed to the point that 24/7 was not what I was able to give; however I still had the need for service. So I would perform service such as helping out at the flea, assisting with something else here and there. What this did was give me the opportunity to fulfill my need for service and also gave me the opportunity to learn.

So again might I suggest that instead of finding your answers online only; that you take some time to get out there in real time and attend workshops, classes, munches, etc.

sweetcali

i am very active in my local community, and attend classes, discussions, meetings, seminars, etc. like crazy, mostly because i feel it is more appropriate as a single sub for me to seek out education than to go to parties, etc.

in April i attended Servant's Retreat with Catherine Gross...i found it very useful and, while "fight club" rules apply to SR, reaffirming of my decisions

i will say that these questions pre-date that experience, but upon re-reading them i still felt that i could benefit from the input of others

i will also say that writing them off as typical ho hum blame-the-dom whiny sub stuff is a little too pat, and that there are very weighty issues to engage if you look beyond that

[dark_crystal]

I am going to be honest here again

This sounds personal, and since the Dom in question is not here to tell their side, it becomes unfair..

When I read words like:

" i learned that when anger enters the equationn there is no limit to how far the other person will take it"

I want to grab my boy by the scruff and back the fuck out real o' quick, cause it throws red flags all over the place for me..

i am not sure what you are saying here...

Would you like me to be honest about this as well?

of course

[The_Lady_Snow]

i am not sure what you are saying here...



of course


Allow me to compose my answer, this may take some time since right now my attentions are elsewhere.. Thank you for your patience

[tuffboi29]

*peeks in quietly,and with eyes averted sits prone and waits for acknowlgement*

[Sachita]

1: D/s & laziness
I am a demanding woman. I’ve been in situations where a submissive’s idea of serving me well and my idea were completely different. I despise laziness but I’ve seen resentments well because they had no idea what was really involved in the running of our home. Also if you want the projection of my dominance I need good service and to feel like a Queen. It’s not that I can’t do it. I not only want you to do it but to get off on doing it for me just like I get off on you doing it for me. Resentments build because there’s no balance and no seduction. IMO it doesn’t work without the dance being met. If I have a boi/boy serving me I expect all the little things handled yet in exchange it’s up to me to motivate that type of service.

2: D/s Character
It reads to me like you don’t really respect your Dominant. When I first dabbled in the scene back in the early 80’s I flew to various cities meeting other femdom. I was successfully involved in a career, own my own home, control was my middle name. I met some who lives were a fucking shambles. Addictions, depression, women I could never look up to. The people that served them served their own fantasy but in reality and looking back it was not a complete D/s relationship. If you want to be treated like a Goddess you have to actually be one and not use D/s to mask insecurities or laziness. Only you can decide if this person deserves what you have to offer and only she can decide if YOU have want it takes to inspire her.

3: D/s and codependency
This is a hard one. I think it takes a very experienced and compassionate dominant to constructively orchestrate the D/s relationship. Sometimes submission is complex, fragile and other times strong and fearless. Each has its own challenges. In the case of humiliation, as an example, I’ve seen it enhance, heal and get really hot but I’ve also seen it crush someone. Unless someone has a lot of experience with this, willing to do that hard work compassionately and unselfishly then they should stay clear of this.

4: 24/7
I hate this term too because it conjures all kinds of stupid visions. In my D/s relationships there is a constant undertone in everything we do. There is a structure that works for the relationship and a balance everyone has to work at. I have a level of expectation always but I also know that the D/s part of our relationship is just a part, not all. It “looks” normal, it looks loving, it looks like any other relationship but if I snap my fingers or say certain words the space is created.

It sounds to me like you two are not on the same page and resentments will kill this relationship.

[Sachita]

Ok I'm not saying this is you, just worth mentioning...

Many moons ago I had this sub, a cute little service oriented femme. On her trips to me she was flawless. They were short stays, two days and finally she came to live in. I had a boi that use to come every weekend.

anyhow, once she moved in I noticed this passive-aggressive behavior and some apparent co-dependent behaviors. One thing I can't stand is passive aggressive.Nothing will shut me down quicker then this and your life will become hell. I'm not saying this is the case but have you considered all of your actions and how you are coming across?

In my situation she thought she was the best submissive in the world and even went to her friends and said I neglected her, took advantage of her, etc. This wasnt the case at all. I just found her attitude such a turn off and then searched within myself to see if I could somehow correct it. She played games with my boi and ultimately I showed her the door. It all boiled down to the fact that I didnt dominant her the way SHE wanted to be dominated. But then again she was slap ass crazy! lol

[The_Lady_Snow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow View Post
I am going to be honest here again

This sounds personal, and since the Dom in question is not here to tell their side, it becomes unfair..

When I read words like:

" i learned that when anger enters the equationn there is no limit to how far the other person will take it"

I want to grab my boy by the scruff and back the fuck out real o' quick, cause it throws red flags all over the place for me..


i am not sure what you are saying here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow View Post

Would you like me to be honest about this as well?

of course



________________________________________

Ok I took some time to think about this before I answered.. What is highlighted in red, throws *alert* alarms off for me. Here is why..

You have come in and self admittedly said you were not right. You need to take a hiatus, you are co- dependent, you are far more skilled than the Doms you are with, and there have been some hints thrown of what sounds like ugly break ups.

We all have them, ugly break ups, and with this being a D/s subject matter I will say it again.

IT IS UNFAIR SINCE THE OTHER PARTY IS NOT HERE.

It feels like to *me* the blame is all being cast off on them.

Clearly it was both of you, and clearly you were in no space to be serving if you knowingly went into a relationship with co-dependency issues. I wonder if you told the Dom this? If not then you left yourself for land mines to explode.

So that is what I meant.

With that said, my suggestion is get therapy, take a hiatus, find you, deal with the co-dependency so that you can have a healthy exchange. Once you have done the work on you, join your local munches, BDSM community and find yourself a mentor.

Once again good luck

[The_Lady_Snow]

*peeks in quietly,and with eyes averted sits prone and waits for acknowlgement*


so now that you have been acknowledged in your prone position boi, do you have anything to add to this convo?

I am curious.

[tuffboi29]

[QUOTE=dark_crystal;118970][CENTER][FONT="Georgia"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Magenta"][CENTER]


" where anger was too often a scorched earth situation, and i learned that when anger enters the equationn there is no limit to how far the other person will take it....so i have a morbid fear that has hopefully outlived its usefulness"

*nods appreciatively at my acknowledgement*


i would like to ask...why/how/what situations were anger interjected into your D/s relationship?In my experiences my Mistress may have gotten frustrated with me on a few occasions but always steered me back to the direction She wanted; not out of anger, but for the improvments of my service, and what She felt was most importantly for myself.i have never been subjected to outright anger from my Dom.It would be unproductive twords Her goals and my own for that type of behavior to be allowed.

Also...as slaves/subs, we do have rights in the relationship as well.As human beings we have wants, needs, and desires that we seek to be fulfilled.Vannila relationship, or D/s relationship...if these needs aren't being fulfilled, then why stay when you have the right to move on to what is fulfilling to you?


And may i stress...in ANY relationship, anger being weilded as a weapon of any type is NOT acceptible behavior from either party.

[dark_crystal]

When I first dabbled in the scene back in the early 80’s I flew to various cities meeting other femdom. I was successfully involved in a career, own my own home, control was my middle name. I met some who lives were a fucking shambles. Addictions, depression, women I could never look up to. The people that served them served their own fantasy but in reality and looking back it was not a complete D/s relationship

yes. i see this a lot in my local community and it just confuses me...i wonder if i take the whole thing too seriously? i see my friends serving Masters who don't seem to have anything going for them and i wonder if those that you speak of that "served their own fantasy" are the ones that know what's going on and i expect too much?

[dark_crystal]

i would like to ask...why/how/what situations were anger interjected into your D/s relationship?In my experiences my Mistress may have gotten frustrated with me on a few occasions but always steered me back to the direction She wanted; not out of anger, but for the improvments of my service, and what She felt was most importantly for myself.i have never been subjected to outright anger from my Dom.It would be unproductive twords Her goals and my own for that type of behavior to be allowed.

my first Dom, who was a total nightmare and i should have known better but i was so new, etc, ect, ect just had explosive anger issues that really made them a dangerous human being...i was in trouble every singel day, usually several times a day and punished corporally many times a day, it was a domestic abuse situation that was very difficult to get out of

The vanilla relationship i was in before that, my partner also used anger to keep control, by making every single disagreement into a threatened breakup

i was conditioned to tolerate all of this by my family of origin dynamic, etc.

i see now that i should have gone into serious therapy/time out after my first Dom, but instead was collared by my 2nd Dom within 6 weeks of getting free

i know this was totally insane and messed up and i am trying to do now what i should have done then

[dark_crystal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow View Post
I am going to be honest here again

This sounds personal, and since the Dom in question is not here to tell their side, it becomes unfair..

When I read words like:

" i learned that when anger enters the equationn there is no limit to how far the other person will take it"

I want to grab my boy by the scruff and back the fuck out real o' quick, cause it throws red flags all over the place for me..


i am not sure what you are saying here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow View Post

Would you like me to be honest about this as well?

of course



________________________________________

Ok I took some time to think about this before I answered.. What is highlighted in red, throws *alert* alarms off for me. Here is why..

You have come in and self admittedly said you were not right. You need to take a hiatus, you are co- dependent, you are far more skilled than the Doms you are with, and there have been some hints thrown of what sounds like ugly break ups.

We all have them, ugly break ups, and with this being a D/s subject matter I will say it again.

IT IS UNFAIR SINCE THE OTHER PARTY IS NOT HERE.

It feels like to *me* the blame is all being cast off on them.

Clearly it was both of you, and clearly you were in no space to be serving if you knowingly went into a relationship with co-dependency issues. I wonder if you told the Dom this? If not then you left yourself for land mines to explode.

So that is what I meant.

With that said, my suggestion is get therapy, take a hiatus, find you, deal with the co-dependency so that you can have a healthy exchange. Once you have done the work on you, join your local munches, BDSM community and find yourself a mentor.

Once again good luck

you are absolutely correct and what you recommend is exactly what i am doing...however i still feel that the philosophical underpinnings i started this thread seeking to examine have gotten completely disregarded while the tone of my questions has been examined...i will clarify this after i go do my job for an hour real quick

[Sachita]

yes. i see this a lot in my local community and it just confuses me...i wonder if i take the whole thing too seriously? i see my friends serving Masters who don't seem to have anything going for them and i wonder if those that you speak of that "served their own fantasy" are the ones that know what's going on and i expect too much?

Expecting to much really isnt the issue here. The issue is IF you are ready or able to engage in this type of relationship right or now. Let's me use a funny example but most recent.

The other day I'm showing a young man my garden wanting him to do some weeding for me or at least I thought/hoping he could. Some of the beds are sprouting plants from last year. I'm trying to point out to him what are weeds and what are plants to keep. At one point he said, "How do you remember all this and know what a plant is when there are only two leaves?" It hit me that I had been doing this so long I can spot something right away. It's almost like it's part of my muscle memory. This is what you DON'T have. The perception, for one and second your "baggage" or "co-dependency" issues could be putting you into these relationships for the wrong reasons. It's easy to repeat fucked up patterns and everyone has some kind of self sabotage going on. We're raised in to believe what we just dont feel. Does that make sense?

It looks to me like you are repeating and thats because you just don't know how to look or your perception is off because you NEED to heal within before attempting to expose yourself. Other wise you'll be fair game for all kinds of predators.

D/s is an "exchange of power" not one over powering, manipulating and projecting abuse. You're going to have dominants that are hell fire, full of piss and vinegar and demanding as all hell BUT the trick is to see if they are intense or insane. Honestly this might be hard to see at first. People that saw me play at parties, etc might think I'm bitchtilla and full of myself when I'm in that space but those who know me see the other sides of me. Leaving one fucked up situation and being collar within a few weeks is just insane.

Here's what I'd do if I were you. Forget about being owned and finding a top for a while. Find a group of very cool fun scene friends and hang out with them. Have FUN. Don't get all caught up in too much protocol and don't let your libido override your clear thinking. Just have fun and keep learning about the various dynamics and styles. While your dabbling keep going to therapy or whatever your doing to heal yourself.

Step back, regroup and go take care of yourself.

[dark_crystal]

Here's what I'd do if I were you. Forget about being owned and finding a top for a while. Find a group of very cool fun scene friends and hang out with them. Have FUN. Don't get all caught up in too much protocol and don't let your libido override your clear thinking. Just have fun and keep learning about the various dynamics and styles. While your dabbling keep going to therapy or whatever your doing to heal yourself.

Step back, regroup and go take care of yourself.

that is exactly what i am doing, thanks for your input

[dark_crystal]

ok i get that some who have participated in this thread have taken issue with me allowing my feelings of disappointment to influence the tone of the original post, and i get that picking up on that tone lends itself to an examination of my motivations and general condition and people's advice on what to do about same, but this leaves some of my original quesiotns completely unaddressed, so i will re-ask the ones that i most seriously want input on:

A) D/s and character
i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything. After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?

am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?

B) For D/g or D/s or M/s, it is necessary that the Daddy have “real” authority?
Am I supposed to submit to you because of your powerful personality, my sexual attraction to you, or my positive regard/like/love for you?
Or do you need to be qualified to take authority over my life? Or are we just role-playing?
Does a girl submit to her Daddy because that is her nature or because the Daddy is “worthy” of her submission?

What makes someone “worthy” of submission?

[The_Lady_Snow]

my first Dom, who was a total nightmare and i should have known better but i was so new, etc, ect, ect just had explosive anger issues that really made them a dangerous human being...i was in trouble every singel day, usually several times a day and punished corporally many times a day, it was a domestic abuse situation that was very difficult to get out of

The vanilla relationship i was in before that, my partner also used anger to keep control, by making every single disagreement into a threatened breakup

i was conditioned to tolerate all of this by my family of origin dynamic, etc.

i see now that i should have gone into serious therapy/time out after my first Dom, but instead was collared by my 2nd Dom within 6 weeks of getting free

i know this was totally insane and messed up and i am trying to do now what i should have done then


I see patterns, even if these weren't any kind of BDSM related relationships, going into a collar after six weekd? Really? I mean a collar is not like speed dating yanno, or maybe it is now I can't imagine going from one collar to another to another, it's like bouncing from marriage to marriage.

you are absolutely correct and what you recommend is exactly what i am doing...however i still feel that the philosophical underpinnings i started this thread seeking to examine have gotten completely disregarded while the tone of my questions has been examined...i will clarify this after i go do my job for an hour real quick


What I see you examining is how a Dom will answer your questions, I say answer them yourself and be honest. You can't seek clarity unless you are not rippling yourself and once again to be honest, your choices (self admittedly) have been the same over and over and it seems that *your* service is at a high standard compared to any Dom, yet you continued to hook up with angry, destructive, abusive people.

*I* am not participating in a questionaire from a submissive who is casting all the blame on the Dom alone.

They are similar to assignment questions and I feel that is your homework not mine.

Now, someone else may but me, Snow

I gotta say nah....

[The_Lady_Snow]

ok i get that some who have participated in this thread have taken issue with me allowing my feelings of disappointment to influence the tone of the original post, and i get that picking up on that tone lends itself to an examination of my motivations and general condition and people's advice on what to do about same, but this leaves some of my original quesiotns completely unaddressed, so i will re-ask the ones that i most seriously want input on:

A) D/s and character
i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything. I disagree how can one have honor and integrity yet DO nothing? This makes not sense. One has to have some mark in this world for integrity and honor to shine through, now unless that person is a sloth and never leaves the house and no one can question it then yes I guess they could claim these things After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? I can't imagine a Dominant who has no self control, how can one guide another if one does not know how to control one's self? Do you seriously think that Dominants do not practice restraint? really?

i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?

Humility much? As I said before, if you outgrow a Dom or if your are far more skilled in service than what that Dom needs, find one who is in your level, or better yet become a Dom yourself.. I mean really you are the one picking these people, shouldn't you have been more careful picking someone you are entrusting your life with?

am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?

answer above applies to this as well

B) For D/g or D/s or M/s, it is necessary that the Daddy have “real” authority?

I am Daddy, I am the law, I am the Dominant I am the law, I am Master I am the law.. Period

Am I supposed to submit to you because of your powerful personality, my sexual attraction to you, or my positive regard/like/love for you?
Or do you need to be qualified to take authority over my life? Or are we just role-playing?

What do you think? Why were you attracted to these jerks, was it the sex? Was it they were attractive? Did you love them? Did you need them? Did you obsess over them? Shouldn't someone who is calling themselves your Owner have some qualifications? Do you just take your car to any ol' person for repairs? I mean come on, this person is going to possibly kick the fuck out of you and you did not check qualifications?
Does a girl submit to her Daddy because that is her nature or because the Daddy is “worthy” of her submission?

My girl did not submit to be me because of anything else than it was her calling, my boys serve me because it is engrained in them. I hold this honor high for they do not fight their true nature, they do what they were meant to do.

What makes someone “worthy” of submission?


What makes you *worthy* to serve anyone? That is my question, cause all I have heard is he did this, they did that, I am better than, me me me me me..

That's all I have for now

[The_Lady_Snow]

that is exactly what i am doing, thanks for your input



Isn't that what most people in here have been trying to tell you.

You need therapy.

No self respecting Dom that reads this is going to touch you with a ten foot pole, you got to many triggers and potential land mines.

You are to fragile and not in the right state of mind and that makes it dangerous period

[NicolaitheMorbid]

so now that you have been acknowledged in your prone position boi, do you have anything to add to this convo?

I am curious.

god dammit I hate it when You beat me to the cheeky response....

ok i get that some who have participated in this thread have taken issue with me allowing my feelings of disappointment to influence the tone of the original post, and i get that picking up on that tone lends itself to an examination of my motivations and general condition and people's advice on what to do about same, but this leaves some of my original quesiotns completely unaddressed, so i will re-ask the ones that i most seriously want input on:

A) D/s and character
i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything. After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?

am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?

B) For D/g or D/s or M/s, it is necessary that the Daddy have “real” authority?
Am I supposed to submit to you because of your powerful personality, my sexual attraction to you, or my positive regard/like/love for you?
Or do you need to be qualified to take authority over my life? Or are we just role-playing?
Does a girl submit to her Daddy because that is her nature or because the Daddy is “worthy” of her submission?

What makes someone “worthy” of submission?

what makes you worthy of a chance to serve? Can you define real authority for me please? I am confused about what really makes authority real for you.

I suppose I would have to form some kind of trust with my Dominant that makes me willing to offer my services to them...because outside of my Ms...I can't think of a single person I would ever kneel to.

Powerful personality? No... I don't think that's it. Many people have a powerful personality but I don't want to polish their boots...much the opposite...if someone tries to "top" me I'm much more likely to flip on them than I am to avert my eyes and say "yes Sir/Ma'am"

submissives don't have to be weak delicate flowers...I'm pretty sure I'd pop someone in the nose if they treated me that way

as far as honor and integrity without doing anything... I guess I can't argue that you CAN'T have honor and integrity if you don't do anything because you don't have anything to take away from it...but you're not adding to the pool either...maybe it's kind of like division by zero...I don't really know. I'd like to think a person has actions to back it up if they feel they live that way, but that's just my feeling.

Nico
- a fiesty little flower- :bunchflowers:

[adorable]

[CENTER]
B) For D/g or D/s or M/s, it is necessary that the Daddy have “real” authority?
Am I supposed to submit to you because of your powerful personality, my sexual attraction to you, or my positive regard/like/love for you?
Or do you need to be qualified to take authority over my life? Or are we just role-playing?
Does a girl submit to her Daddy because that is her nature or because the Daddy is “worthy” of her submission?

What makes someone “worthy” of submission?

I think I see what you're getting at, I think...

But the problem is - just like Snow told you is - that if you aren't ready, the Dom is irrelevant to the equation. How you percieve someone or what they do can be altered by your own headspace. And ALL relationships are relative to the two people involved. There are no absolute answers to these questions. What works for me would not at all work for you.

For me, Daddy doesn't need anything to be "qualified" to take over my life personally. Our chemistry just is...I want to submit to him because he's got IT. Not everyone submits for that reason either. Would you want to submit to him because he's got IT for me? No, that's ridiculous. All submissives aren't alike anymore then all Dom's are alike. (which I kind of read your questions as saying - I might be wrong. I know I was really confused at one time by all of this too, but I was way over thinking things - a tendancy of mine.)

My Daddy, has my respect and I trust him. He doesn't have either because of what he owns, his level of education or what he does for a living. He has it because of his character, honesty and personal integrity. That isn't some magic spell he put me under, we communicated tons. We talked and talked. We negotiated everything. Dom's are HUMAN, in the same way everyone else is - so why on earth would I expect him to be my everything (which is how I am reading what you are asking?) Control over my life is kind of an odd question for me personally because by having him in my life doesn't take away from my ability to think for myself, to negotiate with him or re-negotiate with him. I do what he wants me to because I want to - it's negotiated. If I didn't want to do it, I wouldn't have negotiated it with him...

For him to be my Daddy I have expectations just like he has expectations of me - those are negotiated too. What I expect and what you expect might be wayyy different of a Daddy. It's not much different then most relationships. This isn't role playing for me - this is our life. Do we role play? Sure. Do all D/g? I dunno. I don't worry about all D/g's. Just as long as our relationship works for us, that is what matters.

Daddy doesn't mean the same for everyone is what I'm getting at. There are people who I didn't feel IT with and I could never submit to. Does that make them a bad Dom(me) or a bad Daddy? No, it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with me and my personal feelings. There are people who had nothing to do with BDSM that I didn't feel IT with either - does that make them bad people? Or unworthy of a relationship because *I* didn't feel something with them?

[dark_crystal]

What makes you *worthy* to serve anyone? That is my question, cause all I have heard is he did this, they did that, I am better than, me me me me me..

That's all I have for now

Isn't that what most people in here have been trying to tell you.

You need therapy.

No self respecting Dom that reads this is going to touch you with a ten foot pole, you got to many triggers and potential land mines.

You are to fragile and not in the right state of mind and that makes it dangerous period

i know i'm a mess i am not asking what i personally should do ro be or anything!!! i really am asking about theory and philosophy, NOT about me personally...theorectically, philosophically, where do You think Your power is located? Dominants in general? and do You think that service relationships provide character-building opportunities for submissives that dominants miss out on? You personally and dominants in general? Obviously "in general" cannot be a scientific answer with results culled from a random sampling, but i think guesses can be made and qualified as same
Can you define real authority for me please? I am confused about what really makes authority real for you.

I suppose I would have to form some kind of trust with my Dominant that makes me willing to offer my services to them...because outside of my Ms...I can't think of a single person I would ever kneel to.

a definition is what i am seeking!!! obviously no one can define it FOR me but i want to know where other people locate it! What makes you Ms. someone you want to serve?

[dark_crystal]

For me, Daddy doesn't need anything to be "qualified" to take over my life personally. Our chemistry just is...I want to submit to him because he's got IT.

what do you mean by "he's got IT"...can you describe how it feels when you percieve that quality of IT?

[SuperFemme]

A) D/s and character
i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything.

You cannot have honor & integrity without doing anything. Lack of honor & integrity comes from NOT doing anything, NOT striving to treat oneself and others with honesty and integrity. Doing the right thing is almost always more difficult than doing nothing.

After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?

There are a lot of people out there who practice initiative and self control in their everyday lives. This is not something unique to you. If you seek out those things in a Dom, you will find them. As an aside, I have to wonder if some self sabotage is not at play in your choice of Dom's to date. Because if you choose a caliber of person that always allows you to say to yourself that you are *better* than them? It ensures that you will not be truly vulnerable, doesn't it?

am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?

You are hurting them, but not for the reasons you may think. You'd be hurting them by pretending to them that you are truly serving/submitting when you really don't even respect them. If you see yourself as better than, then you are not in an honest D/g D/s relationship are you?

B) For D/g or D/s or M/s, it is necessary that the Daddy have “real” authority?

Of course it is. That is a huge part of the gift one gives as a babygirl/submissive. Giving yourself to somebody and saying "I trust you to have my best interest at heart and to teach me". For that to happen there has to be both authority and acquiescence.

Am I supposed to submit to you because of your powerful personality, my sexual attraction to you, or my positive regard/like/love for you?

You are supposed to because you want to. Odd that you don't mention trust anywhere.

Or do you need to be qualified to take authority over my life? Or are we just role-playing?

I think this is something only you can answer. A Dom might ask if you are qualified to engage in giving yourself to their authority.

Does a girl submit to her Daddy because that is her nature or because the Daddy is “worthy” of her submission?

If it wasn't your nature you wouldn't submit would you? The second part of your question is an oxymoron of sorts because one wouldn't have the title of Daddy if one wasn't worthy, would they?

What makes someone “worthy” of submission?

This is entirely subjective, and only YOU can know the answer as it pertains to you.

[The_Lady_Snow]

i know i'm a mess i am not asking what i personally should do ro be or anything!!! i really am asking about theory and philosophy, NOT about me personally...theorectically, philosophically, where do You think Your power is located?

I was born this way, I was born Dominant, I was lucky and honored enough to have been under a good Master, who recognized my natural abilities and skills and He helped me become better, and through the boys I pay Him homage or through anyone that has served under me.


Dominants in general?

Some are born, others are made


and do You think that service relationships provide character-building opportunities for submissives that dominants miss out on?

This is where I want to kick a juice box, what makes you think Dominants are missing out on character building opportunities?

Why is it with you only *submissives* have all the qualifications? You seem bitter towards Doms




You personally and dominants in general? Obviously "in general" cannot be a scientific answer with results culled from a random sampling, but i think guesses can be made and qualified as same

I have to ask what about everyone's character and intent


a definition is what i am seeking!!! obviously no one can define it FOR me but i want to know where other people locate it! What makes you Ms. someone you want to serve?

My answers in black

[adorable]

what do you mean by "he's got IT"...can you describe how it feels when you percieve that quality of IT?

And that is the question isn't it?

That IT for me is personal and it's either there or it's not. IT is chemistry.

The other IT that I think you're getting at is what makes me want to submit to him. That's just as impossible to explain. We understand each other. In order for me personally to engage in this type of relationship I need to feel safe. I am absolutely safe with him. Who I am, me - I am safe.

I knew what I didn't want in a relationship. I knew where I'd been, but I also knew where I was going and what I was looking for...so when it didn't feel right with someone - I stopped it and backed out. (I entered into relationships before KNOWING it wasn't what I wanted because it fed a sick need in ME to be there.)

I stayed out of relationships for nearly two years because the last one was a doozey & I was in no hurry to end up back there. I had come a LONG way when I got into that relationship and everything I thought I knew I had to step back and revisit. lol.

That isn't to say that he is perfect - I sure as hell ain't either. But we TALK. We communicate. We are committed to making it work and at the same level of emotional investment.

It is just like Snow said earlier (and this is my limit of agreeing with Snow - no more then twice in one day) that if YOU are not there or ready - you aren't going to see it - you will keep attracting the same types of people. I spent most of my teens and 20s doing that until I figured out why and could see what I was doing and stopped it. Until I learned how to sit with myself and really figure out MY stuff - I wasn't in any place to be in a relationship. IF I had been presented with the "perfect" person I wouldn't have seen or appreciated it. Most likely I would have gotten bored because there wasn't a high enough level of turmoil or things for me to "fix."

[dark_crystal]

This is entirely subjective, and only YOU can know the answer as it pertains to you.


your responses are useful. thank you

[dark_crystal]

And that is the question isn't it?

That IT for me is personal and it's either there or it's not. IT is chemistry.

The other IT that I think you're getting at is what makes me want to submit to him. That's just as impossible to explain. We understand each other. In order for me personally to engage in this type of relationship I need to feel safe. I am absolutely safe with him. Who I am, me - I am safe.

This is useful. thank you

[dark_crystal]

My answers in black

thank You for Your participation in this discussion. it has been informative

[adorable]

Useful? LOL For some reason that cracks me up.
Can everyone who tried to answer you be useful or is this a special award? (I am all for special awards and exclusivity.)

And what the rest of my post wasn't useful? I am just picking on your word choice here. Not trying to slam you.

Maybe a better word would be helpful? I wasn't really trying to be useful, but I was trying to be helpful - I think everyone else was too.

[NicolaitheMorbid]

a definition is what i am seeking!!! obviously no one can define it FOR me but i want to know where other people locate it! What makes you Ms. someone you want to serve?

ok well....

My Ms and I generally agree on points of service, about what our dynamic should look like, ect.

I don't get taken advantage of, I don't get pushed against my will to do things, She is respectful of my limits and boundaries

oh and She doesn't want to sleep with me, major plus for me there.

It just is kind of a natural thing, I entered into service, I gave Her authority over me, and the dynamic just kind of works on its own with no real effort.

It's kinda my philosophy on relationships in general....they should work easily without being forced. If it's forced...it isn't right for ya

[Rope]

A) D/s and character
i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything. After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?

This is why in BDSM 101 we talk about get references about persons you are entering into an s/m agreement with and even more so in a D/s one. ASK QUESTIONS--what sort of Master are you, what has been difficulties you've encountered with slaves you've owned, what do you expect of slaves you own, how do you handle your slaves career. What makes you a Master I want to serve? Take stock in what you have to offer---I can hire a maid to clean my house or cook food for me, so I would expect more than a shallow answer to this assessment of a slaves self.

Sure there's sexual attraction and what I might give/take, learn/teach but you cannot ignore the nuts and bolts of we just might not be compatible in our D/s.
am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?

What? If they cannot function as an adult then yes, you might just be feeding their incompetent self. Ask questions.
B) For D/g or D/s or M/s, it is necessary that the Daddy have “real” authority?
Am I supposed to submit to you because of your powerful personality, my sexual attraction to you, or my positive regard/like/love for you?
Or do you need to be qualified to take authority over my life? Or are we just role-playing?
Does a girl submit to her Daddy because that is her nature or because the Daddy is “worthy” of her submission?

If you do not feel a Master (or Daddy) is worthy of you submission then why would you want to. If I do not command the space and you don't feel I may offer postive things to your life, why would you submit? Saying you're a Master and being a Master, two different things. There are lots of armchair Daddys/Masters/Mommys/Doms who have scratched the surface of D/s and think they're qualified to deal with real life D/s.

Yes, these Tops can be guilty of having "projects" rather than real D/s relationships. They seek people with issues or problems cuz they're gonna be the one to fix that person or that persons D/s. You'll do it until you're tired of doing it.

What makes someone “worthy” of submission?
See above regarding worthiness.

I want a grown up to serve me, I want an adult that can sit at a table as an equal and tell me about their grown up problems, issues, failings, stellar moments, and what they have to offer. Negotiate as equals to get to that D/s place. I want you to be able to articulate your s/m, what you have to deal with as an adult in your adult life and as your Master 24/7--yep, I will support you in your pursuits as you serve me.
Rope--

[IrishGrrl]

Perhaps in therapy you should discuss why you are attracted to this lifestyle to begin with. I'm sure we all have different answers. I think it's healthy when beginning to ask yourself the hard questions, and have the courage to accept the real answers. I think alot of people get into this life who are doing it for the wrong reasons. (attention needy,codependent,past abuse they are working through..just a few examples of what I see as potential problems)
You have to discover the WHYs before the HOWs, IMO. Seems like you've skipped a step. Bottom line is this. You cant blame anyone else for your choices, or actions. Perhaps someone had some influence over your choices, but ultimatly you are the only one responsible for yourself. Hard to admit at times but useful.

Irish

[Sachita]

A) D/s and character
i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything. After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?

This is why in BDSM 101 we talk about get references about persons you are entering into an s/m agreement with and even more so in a D/s one. ASK QUESTIONS--what sort of Master are you, what has been difficulties you've encountered with slaves you've owned, what do you expect of slaves you own, how do you handle your slaves career. What makes you a Master I want to serve? Take stock in what you have to offer---I can hire a maid to clean my house or cook food for me, so I would expect more than a shallow answer to this assessment of a slaves self.

Sure there's sexual attraction and what I might give/take, learn/teach but you cannot ignore the nuts and bolts of we just might not be compatible in our D/s.
am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?


Today you have a much better support and information system then we did when I entered the scene, HOWEVER you also have people that mask behind a PC screen who learned some type of Castle Realm BDSM. People can tell you anything and even I have fallen prey to this. Words are BS. Show me and then show me again.

I agree that you both need to take stock and decide what you really and realistically have to offer each other. What is going to be included in your dynamic? I love that whole Dominant and submissive exchange and it doesnt need to include BDSM - bondage, whipping, pain, etc. but if my bottom is into it and it puts hym into a better space I can enjoy going there with hym. Hy might not be into humiliation but loves how it delights me and because he adores me creates situations hy knows I'll like.

At the same time, as Lady Snow has stated, I am law. I draw the lines, I set the rules and I also make damn sure hy understands them. "These are the terms of serving me." No matter what space we share that is an ongoing authority I own. If I'm a pouty little girl or a loving nurturing mommy underneath all that is a knowing that I'm in charge. I allow flexibility IF it meets my agenda and I am also compassionate as long as there is no signs of manipulation.

Rather then listen to lip service from anyone why don't you kick back, watch and observe. Anyone can pick up a book. There's hundreds now all saying the same thing. Deal with your abuse issues separately, somehow. Getting advice online is ok but again, anyone can tell you "stuff" they've heard but in the very real world it's different. Buddy up real time with a few experienced scene people. Not weekend warriors but people that have bdsm as part of their relationship. Offer them services such as cleaning, errands etc in exchange for just being around and seeing how their relationships operate. I use to train professional dominatrix's, only a few, because I made it very clear that if you wanted to learn from me then you will submit to me the moment you walk through that door. That is my criteria and what I did to learn some of the stuff I know today. Maybe spend a weekend here and there in a BDSM home that you've checked out and see the different styles. It's ok not to be in a relationship for a while.

[tiggs]

Hi DC,



I have read through the thread from start to finish and though there are many things I would like to respond to I am going to keep my response to your original post. I will try to make as much sense as possible as I am at the tail end of a 13 hour graveyard shift :moonstars:



some things i've been wrestling with, contribute if you can

1) (service) D/s and laziness

my service feels much more like a gift and an honor when i know that if i don't perform a service, my Dom will have to do it. When i know that, i feel that i am gifting them with, not only the service itself, but an easier life in general and the luxury of unstructured time, etc. That idea wraps the gift up in silver and gold sparkly ribbons for me and i feel deeply fulfilled by giving it, like i am creating something wonderful in our pristine, gracious, well-run home.


After i had some time to observe my ex and saw that she was just plain lazy, my gift felt devalued. I did not feel like my performing a service meant giving the gift of time, ease, not having to do it herself, etc. I did not feel like she would have to do it if i didn't- i felt like if i didn't do it it just wouldn't get done, and that she would be more willing to live in the filth that would result than to do it herself. I felt like instead of giving her a gift i was rescuing us both from the bad consequences of her laziness. This is a much less special feeling.



I do agree that in the gift of service we as s/g/slaves give something very special to our D/Daddy/Ms however I see a very important part missing in your statement. You speak of what the individual s/b/slave is giving and missing the other side to the equation. I believe that in the receiving there is giving as well; the receiving of service is a gift to the s/g/slave. I don’t believe that whether or not; if on Her/Hys own she/Hy would perform the same tasks to your expected levels that it should have any impact on whether or not your gift of service is of value. If one truly has a heart for service I believe they serve for the joy of service not because the other would not or could not perform that task.


2) D/s and character

i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything. After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?



This question seems to be a bit ‘all over’ asking several different things so I will try to answer it as I understand the question. I believe that honesty, integrity, industry, initiative, self-control and honour are all pieces of a persons ‘character’ and that all are important to both parties in ANY healthy relationship, regardless if it is BDSM based or vanilla.

Yes I believe that as a s/g/slave one does need to practice the virtues of industry, initiative and self control however so does the D/Daddy/Ms. You may be performing more/all of the house hold tasks but do not believe that it is an easy road for the D/Daddy/Ms to be in a position of control/authority. A good D/Daddy/Ms is practicing these virtues on a continual basis by monitoring the emotional/mental/spiritual growth of their s/g/slave and ensuring they are receiving the guidance they need to grow.

In addition the D/Daddy/Ms not only has to ensure a healthy life balance for themselves between the ‘outside’ world and home but they will be doing this for the one (or many) that they have in their charge. Just because their tasks and responsibilities are different than the s/g/slave does not make them any less important or difficult. As a mother I can assure you the care and growth of another’s well being is a big task that definitely requires a great deal of industry, initiative and self control.

I just want to ask about your word choice in the above paragraph. You state that "i am forced to practice them every day" speaking of industry, initiative and self control. I don't believe that a healthy D/s, D/g, M/s relationship or in any relationship for that matter, can occur when one individual is feeling 'forced' to do anything .

am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?



I would say no, as long as you have entered the relationship healthy and being completely honest about where you are emotionally and mentally.


3) D/s and codependency

Am i into D/s because it enables my codependency?



I am sure that some do enter these types of relationships as well as vanilla ones due to co-dependency issues but as far as you are concerned? Only you can answer that.



It is a known issue with me that i fear confrontation and i am unable to act in a way that others will find displeasing, even if i really want to and i end up resenting those others for their small-mindedness or whatever makes them mistakenly displeased.



If you are in a D/s, D/g or M/s relationship why would you want to act in a way that your D/Daddy/Ms would find displeasing? Why do you call it small-mindedness and say that they are ‘mistakenly’ displeased? If I have displeased my Daddy/Dom I do not presume Hy is ‘mistakenly’ displeased, I have displeased Hym it is that simple. Though I may not initially understand what I have done to displease Hym, I am certain to find out, and even if I don’t fully understand, it does not mean Hy is mistaken in Hys displeasure.



Am i seeking D/s as a way to create an environment that turns those qualities into virtues instead of confronting them as the maladaptive coping strategies they are?

Again, only you can answer this.


4) 24/7 service slaves with professions

is it really possible? No, REALLY??? i am not talking about a job or a sub working to pay her half of the bills, i am talking about a profession, something that goes beyond a job or even a career to become a part of your identity. Something you do for the love of it and you just happen to get paid. i am talking about holding a position that comes home with you, either in terms of bringing actual work home, like a teacher, or just requiring so much high-level thinking that you cannot come in the least little bit burned out in the morning- and arriving at work in this condition is going to impose certain limitations on your off hours in terms of sleeping and wind-down time, etc. These tings change the slave's availibilty to the Master. It seems like 364 days a year you could probably get away with this but there is going to come a day when the Master gets upset, isn't there?



Yes of course this is possible; it happens for a lot of people and works well. I am not a slave but am a sub and a babygrrl that is in this kind of a work situation, one that in fact places me in position of control in a dangerous work environment. I often am tired at the end of my work days, I work 13 hour shifts and half of my shifts are graveyard shifts which require me to sleep after arriving home. I at times have to deal with very traumatic situations and see things most people couldn’t imagine dealing with. I consider myself blessed that I have an amazing, supportive, understanding and intelligent Dom/Daddy. There are days like yesterday that Hy recognized without my saying a word that my energy levels were quite low and Hy told me that I was not to make dinner before going to work. I know that Hy would have preferred to have a meal made as Hy cannot cook to save Hymself (but Hy makes a mean toast). But, when the relationship is healthy there is care giving on both sides. Hy didn’t prepare a meal but supplied care in the recognition of my needs without my needing to vocalize them.

And yes there are days when D/Daddy/Ms will get upset but they are human like the rest of us and perfection is sometime flawed. ;)

I'm sorry that you have had so many negative relationships DC and it is really great that you are doing work on yourself so that you can get healthy but I think that you need to a closer look inward. When I have a series of or repeated unpleasant experiences, whether personal or professional I try and take a step back to see what they have in common. Sometimes that answer is me. When I am the re-occurring item in a series of problems then it is time to take a look at what I contributed to the problems, become accountable for my portion and make changes my to behavior.

[dark_crystal]

Maybe a better word would be helpful? I wasn't really trying to be useful, but I was trying to be helpful - I think everyone else was too.

ok lol...they kind of mean the same thing to me


It just is kind of a natural thing, I entered into service, I gave Her authority over me, and the dynamic just kind of works on its own with no real effort.

could you imagine yourself serving anyone else, ever?

A) If you do not feel a Master (or Daddy) is worthy of you submission then why would you want to. If I do not command the space and you don't feel I may offer postive things to your life, why would you submit?
Rope--

i think i have had a hard time determining whether someone was worthy or knowing what to look for...the politically correct thing is really ingrained and i have a hadr time walking that line between judging someone as a person and judging whether they are apprpriate for me

You cant blame anyone else for your choices, or actions. Perhaps someone had some influence over your choices, but ultimatly you are the only one responsible for yourself. Hard to admit at times but useful.

oh i am fully aware, in hindsight, of all the mistakes i made and all of the red flags i misidentified...i am trying to get some impersonal, abstract, purely theoretical concepts straight in my mind- right now while there is no one specific for them to attach themselves to- in the hopes that i will have a harder time fooling myself in the future. And i understand that no one can give me these answers, i really just want to hear people's thoughts...i thank everyone for sharing


Rather then listen to lip service from anyone why don't you kick back, watch and observe. Anyone can pick up a book. There's hundreds now all saying the same thing. Deal with your abuse issues separately, somehow. Getting advice online is ok but again, anyone can tell you "stuff" they've heard but in the very real world it's different. Buddy up real time with a few experienced scene people. Not weekend warriors but people that have bdsm as part of their relationship.

i am doing all of these things and using every opportunity available to educate myself...i am fortunate to live in a major metropolitan area with a large real-time community in which i am known and active.


In addition the D/Daddy/Ms not only has to ensure a healthy life balance for themselves between the ‘outside’ world and home but they will be doing this for the one (or many) that they have in their charge. Just because their tasks and responsibilities are different than the s/g/slave does not make them any less important or difficult. As a mother I can assure you the care and growth of another’s well being is a big task that definitely requires a great deal of industry, initiative and self control.

i agree that this is the ideal and i know now to look for the potential

[NicolaitheMorbid]

could you imagine yourself serving anyone else, ever?


not even remotely

in fact the very thought of kneeling in front of anyone else ever makes me grit my teeth and rather grumpy

[dark_crystal]

not even remotely

in fact the very thought of kneeling in front of anyone else ever makes me grit my teeth and rather grumpy

so, is that because you can't imagine not being with The Lady Snow or because if your relationship with The Lady Snow should end for any reason you would not seek D/s out again?

[Random]

Something you said in your first post has been sort of nagging on me...


You said that once you figured out that what you were doing in service was something that your Dom wouldn't do for themself and it made you not want to do it...

It hit me this morning why that felt a bit off...


Mitmo makes sure my coffee is ready every morning.. That everything I need is in front of the coffee maker before she goes to work... If she has the day off, then a cup, fixed to my specifications, is waiting for me when I get up..

She doesn't make that first pot for her and then just let me piggy back off of it... Before we became involved, she just had her coffee at work..

She does it because she knows that left on my own, I will just make a cup of instant when I wake up..

She wants me to have the things that I want and need... Even if I am not willing to do them for myself..

It's one of the ways that she serves me... Antisipating things that will make me happy.. even if they are not things I would do for myself..

[JustJo]

She does it because she knows that left on my own, I will just make a cup of instant when I wake up..

She wants me to have the things that I want and need... Even if I am not willing to do them for myself..

It's one of the ways that she serves me... Antisipating things that will make me happy.. even if they are not things I would do for myself..

Hi Random :rrose:

I've been reading, but not participating in this thread...but your post made me stop and think.

I don't define what I do as "service" per se, but I also do these things when I can, and am looking forward to the time when we are in the same house and I can do more of that for Scoote.

For me, doing things for someone I love is just another way to express that love. I know she will eat a salad if I make it....but she won't make one for herself. Eating that salad makes her healthier. So...I will happily make it. It may not be the equivalent of a passionate kiss...but it's still an expression of love.

In an odd way, the fact that she would not normally do it for herself makes it more special to me...not less.

[Random]

Hi Random :rrose:

I've been reading, but not participating in this thread...but your post made me stop and think.

I don't define what I do as "service" per se, but I also do these things when I can, and am looking forward to the time when we are in the same house and I can do more of that for Scoote.

For me, doing things for someone I love is just another way to express that love. I know she will eat a salad if I make it....but she won't make one for herself. Eating that salad makes her healthier. So...I will happily make it. It may not be the equivalent of a passionate kiss...but it's still an expression of love.

In an odd way, the fact that she would not normally do it for herself makes it more special to me...not less.

Nods.. that makes sense...

[dark_crystal]

Something you said in your first post has been sort of nagging on me...


You said that once you figured out that what you were doing in service was something that your Dom wouldn't do for themself and it made you not want to do it...

It hit me this morning why that felt a bit off...


Mitmo makes sure my coffee is ready every morning.. That everything I need is in front of the coffee maker before she goes to work... If she has the day off, then a cup, fixed to my specifications, is waiting for me when I get up..

She doesn't make that first pot for her and then just let me piggy back off of it... Before we became involved, she just had her coffee at work..

She does it because she knows that left on my own, I will just make a cup of instant when I wake up..

She wants me to have the things that I want and need... Even if I am not willing to do them for myself..

It's one of the ways that she serves me... Antisipating things that will make me happy.. even if they are not things I would do for myself..

Hi Random :rrose:

I've been reading, but not participating in this thread...but your post made me stop and think.

I don't define what I do as "service" per se, but I also do these things when I can, and am looking forward to the time when we are in the same house and I can do more of that for Scoote.

For me, doing things for someone I love is just another way to express that love. I know she will eat a salad if I make it....but she won't make one for herself. Eating that salad makes her healthier. So...I will happily make it. It may not be the equivalent of a passionate kiss...but it's still an expression of love.

In an odd way, the fact that she would not normally do it for herself makes it more special to me...not less.

salads and brewed coffe are kinda extras...this situation, which i began to suspect for diverse reasons while i was still collared but saw vividly confirmed during the month we lived as roommates, had more to do with basic household hygeine...preferring to live with things dirty/unsanitary rather than make an effort- which is something that, in retrospect, was there to be observed before we moved in together, but i was fooled by her blaiming her roommates.

[Random]

salads and brewed coffe are kinda extras...this situation, which i began to suspect for diverse reasons while i was still collared but saw vividly confirmed during the month we lived as roommates, had more to do with basic household hygeine...preferring to live with things dirty/unsanitary rather than make an effort- which is something that, in retrospect, was there to be observed before we moved in together, but i was fooled by her blaiming her roommates.


Ah.. so it was more of a life style difference than a d/s problem..

Was cleaning the house something that was negotiated, or was it something you just did cause you couldn't live that way?

[dark_crystal]

Ah.. so it was more of a life style difference than a d/s problem..

Was cleaning the house something that was negotiated, or was it something you just did cause you couldn't live that way?

oh it was totally negotiated...what i am saying is that eventually i got the feeling that i would have ended up doing it either way, which felt less special, less of a gift

[Sachita]

oh it was totally negotiated...what i am saying is that eventually i got the feeling that i would have ended up doing it either way, which felt less special, less of a gift

Its sounds more like you felt unappreciated. Everyone wants to feel special and appreciated. Even the most groveling submissive needs that, however you also need to be careful that its not coming across as a demand. That will certainly screw up a dominant head-space.

Respect is essential. The respect you have for each other as individuals regardless the nature of the relationship. If a submissive wants my respect they must earn it, get my attention and keep it.

But the reality is this...

If you're really into someone and you truly do worship and adore your dominant then the truth is you can't do enough and little shit like that is trivial. I am more of a one on one type but the chemistry has to be there or no amount of service, begging and groveling will entice me. For me that chemistry is brewed from many factors and respect is high up there on that list.

[The_Lady_Snow]

oh it was totally negotiated...what i am saying is that eventually i got the feeling that i would have ended up doing it either way, which felt less special, less of a gift]

Here is my read on this and this is my POV and not what others may feel or read.

Your expectations of what kind of praise set you up for failure. You go into these relationships with the ideal you are giving a gift and you should be hip hip hurrayed.

You seem to want constant praise and recognition for doing your services and if you do not get them then you become burrowed down in the fact this is not happening so you then lose your umph for service..

I love my boys, and I appreciate them fully, do I go around singing their glory at every task they complete? No.

It is what they are to do, it is what is expected of them, now when they fine tune details and put their own special touches and go out of their way, I beam with pride and will utter a few words, I may not but I will touch them or smile kindly.

That's it.

Don't get me wrong I am humbled by their service to me, and I am honored, will I throw them ticker tape parades?

No.

Does that make me an unappreciative Dom in anyone's eyes?

I don't care.

They are my safe haven be it I have a good day, they are who I turn to if need to and they are who I can confide, this is (from what I was taught) the glories of this position, to be the ears, eyes and rock if need be for your Owner.

I could be wrong though.

Perhaps, if you find a good Dom one that fits you, you will enter this with humility and you will have a happy, healthy, exchange that will fulfill you, if not you can always bottom here and there and negotiate pats on the head every half hour.

Good Luck

[NicolaitheMorbid]

so, is that because you can't imagine not being with The Lady Snow or because if your relationship with The Lady Snow should end for any reason you would not seek D/s out again?


haha no neither of those, though I wouldn't seek out D/s actively either.

If I was dismissed or release I wouldn't go searching for someone new to serve. That just seems a little wreckless.

[deeperstill]

some things i've been wrestling with, contribute if you can

1) (service) D/s and laziness
my service feels much more like a gift and an honor when i know that if i don't perform a service, my Dom will have to do it. When i know that, i feel that i am gifting them with, not only the service itself, but an easier life in general and the luxury of unstructured time, etc. That idea wraps the gift up in silver and gold sparkly ribbons for me and i feel deeply fulfilled by giving it, like i am creating something wonderful in our pristine, gracious, well-run home.
After i had some time to observe my ex and saw that she was just plain lazy, my gift felt devalued. I did not feel like my performing a service meant giving the gift of time, ease, not having to do it herself, etc. I did not feel like she would have to do it if i didn't- i felt like if i didn't do it it just wouldn't get done, and that she would be more willing to live in the filth that would result than to do it herself. I felt like instead of giving her a gift i was rescuing us both from the bad consequences of her laziness. This is a much less special feeling.

2) D/s and character
i have noticed that people seem to equate character with honesty and integrity- IMHO that is only half of it- you can have honor and integrity all day long without actually having to DO anything. After my last three relationships i am much more concerned with industry and initiative and self-control which brings me to another topic- submission and service are great for teaching things like industry and initiative and self-control- does this mean that i will never find those things in a Dom? i am always going to be much better at it than they are just because i am forced to practice them every day and by doing so i make it easy for my Dom NOT to practice them! Is this a catch-22?
am i actually hurting my Dom's character by serving them?

3) D/s and codependency
Am i into D/s because it enables my codependency? It is a known issue with me that i fear confrontation and i am unable to act in a way that others will find displeasing, even if i really want to and i end up resenting those others for their smallmindedness or whatever makes them mistakenly displeased. Am i seeking D/s as a way to create an environment that turns those qualities into virtues instead of confronting them as the maladaptive coping strategies they are?

?


Wow. Lots and lots to chew on here, thank you dark crystal for articulating these things. I'll be back.

[ravfem]

In the past, when asked to explain what it was about the Dg relationship that appealed to me, i could never put into words exactly what it was, and now i think it was because i wouldn't admit it to myself, allow myself to consciously think about what i was demanding in a Daddy.

Now, i can finally put it into words. Now that i finally admit it doesn't exsist, it's very easy for me to describe the pull, the need, the want.

i not only expected, but pretty much demanded, that as "Daddy", they be perfect.

By perfect, i mean absolute, unwavering, ungiving perfection. No flaws, no mistakes, no "off" days (or hours, minutes, seconds), no slip-ups, no nuthin. You know.....un-human.

The logical, adult me says this goes back to my childhood, of never having a "Daddy" figure to look up to, to feel completely safe and always protected as long as Daddy was there.

i didn't know (acknowledge?) i was even seeking Daddy until my ex & i got involved. But i latched onto her and she tried.

As my lover and partner, i never expected perfection and was very forgiving.

But as my Daddy, i held every little mistake very close to my heart, and never let go.

When my ex & i began the process of ending the relationship, the little girl in me was focused - no, obsessed - on "but you promised! you said you'd never let go!" The adult me knew better, and after some time had passed i could even seperate the 2 of us, so that adult rhonda understood the reasons the relationship ended, while the little rhondee was still screaming, "but she promised!!"

It was completely unfair to the Daddy in my life, as well as to myself. How much more could i have set us up for failure??

Was i doing it on purpose, so i could say, "see?! i knew you would hurt, disappoint and abandon me!!"

It's like i was playing tug-of-war with them.....no! yes! come! go!

In my relationships that don't involve the Dg dynamic, i am pretty "normal" as far as expectations, needs & wants. i acknowledge the imperfections, the strengths & weaknesses of my partner, the ups & downs, good & bad that *is* a healthy relationship. i encourage autonomy for us both, understand that no one person can be another's "only and everything".

i have to now help the little, vulnerable girl in my soul come to terms that the perfect Daddy doesn't exsist. It hurts and makes me angry. i want to throw a temper tantrum. Stomp my feet and scream and kick and....all the stuff a little girl would do when faced with the harsh reality.

i find myself going through the grieving process over my ideal, over the loss of that perfection.

[TenderKnight]

I've been reading this thread and thank everyone for posting it it so far..

Just my feelings that are coming up here that I think may add to the thread and the discussion.. I have been in a relationship that was of the Daddy/girl type.. It started out as long distance and ended up with me moving to be closer and r/t.. It didn't end up as either of us planned or hoped that it would..

I felt like I had to be a certain way and I really tried to be who I felt she wanted me to be. I tried very very hard to be her Daddy at all times. I neglected myself and my own inner kid while I did this.. One of the reasons that I tried so hard to be Daddy was because I was and still kinda am scared to be lil with anyone.. I have been hurt a few times when I was lil with someone and I felt like I was bad at it, that it wasn't healthy for me..

Now I realize that if and when I do get into a D/s relationship with someone, there will be a LOT of negotiation and delving into the hows and whys of the relationship.. I don't want to hurt anyone again, nor do I want to be hurt. Of course, I think that this feeling is a given.. Most healthy, feeling individuals don't really want to hurt those they care about.

I love the energy exchange of D/s and D/g and M/b.. I totally get lost in that space and I never want to leave it.. This is the part that gets me I guess.. The area that I am trying to maintain bounderies around, that being the HUMAN area.. I am a person and not a role. I have to remind myself of this at times.. It's fun and hot and sexy to be lil with someone or to be holding a lil in my lap.. Total erotic trip for me, as well as a comfortable space.. Yet, it is a SPACE not a relationship.. In my mind, it can't be, at least, not if it's 24/7.. By 24/7 I mean a situation where you live together and work, pay bills, feed the kids, all of that.. I *personally* just can't do it. Others can and do make that work, but not me, not right now. It wouldn't be healthy.

That all being said.. I still very much value the D/s and T/b relations that I have r/t.. I value the person that I am and I crave the energy exchange.. It will always be a part of who I am as a person.. I think it has always been a part of my make up and my personality. I feed off of and hunger for that energy in my life.

Hmmm.. I am not being very clear with my thoughts here.. I sometimes feel that I rarely am! lol In any case, reading this thread has brought a lot up to the surface for me and I guess that I am still processing. It may be hard right now, but I love learning about myself and look forward to reading more personal insight on this thread and elsewhere. Thank you all for sharing your personal journeys and I will look forward to reading more.

-Tony

[DamonK]

We are both switches.

The little sides have their own names. I won't divulge them, but I will use letters.

We both have littles at different ages.

I will focus on MY littles only though.

L -- 2 yrs.
B -- 8 yrs.
J -- 17 yrs.

They all adore MBE. They all crave her time. They don't compete. They want her love only.

L doesn't understand things sometimes... he would be the one saying "but she promised" yet at the same time, he knows sometimes things happen and sometimes people break up.

That side of me, and the littles of her, make up the sweet, gentle, nurturing side of D/g, M/b.

We are also D/s.

She has expectations of me. I have expectations of her. I cook. She cleans. We share household chores. Her service to me is in different ways. She makes L juice. That is servitude to me, but ultimately L, B, and J are ALL me. Today, L sent her a text message explaining he was dehydrated. She bought powerade, and lots of it. That's service.

If she doesn't serve me, she disappoints herself. She is that disappointed in herself that I will not punish her. She punishes herself. I will remind her of WHY she's supposed to do certain things.

We are both in charge of keeping our household running smoothly.

[Cajun_dee]

I read this thread days ago and wow lots of great perspectives.. I will give my take on it if that is ok..

the word *gift*

my submission does not feel like a *gift* that I give, Its an exchange, an honor, an understanding from those i am serve...

A gift to me is something you give without expecting anything back.. just not the right word for what I do.

I do what I do (service oriented) because I LOVE it, it brings me joy to make sure the ones around me have the little extras, and the needed things done...Can these people do these things without me? Absolutely! But they choose to allow me to because it brings me joy, they love me, they keep me feeling safe and appreciated. Do I look for a pat on the head? (while on my knees would be even better *s*) no, i don't, but when a *good girl* comes my way I beam with happiness and pride. Doing things that don't feel right leaves one feeling empty, so it should be discussed.. when allowed to fester, it only escalates then the resentment kicks in. A case where a Dom is blindsided by it is not fair.

I could never be in service to those who I feel, don't appreciate me or love me. I have always been very blessed. <3

I hope this discussion continues even if it is slightly of topic from the OP

DC.... I am glad you are seeking guidance during your journey!

[DomnNC]

I read this thread days ago and wow lots of great perspectives.. I will give my take on it if that is ok..

the word *gift*

my submission does not feel like a *gift* that I give, Its an exchange, an honor, an understanding from those i am serve...

A gift to me is something you give without expecting anything back.. just not the right word for what I do.


Thank you for saying that sassy_girl! I absolutely abhor the word "gift" when one uses it in relation to their submission or dominance. This "gift" idea was merely created in the online fantasies that you read about the D/s M/s lifestyle which in my opinion automatically gives a submissive the false idea that she is a step above the Dominant in her position within the lifestyle. Her submission is no more a "gift" than my dominance is a "gift" to her in return.

It's part of who she is, part of her/his basic inherent inner core, just as dominance is part of who I am and is the root of my basic inherent inner core It's part of our personality, something we are born with until we recognize and decide to act upon that part of ourselves within the lifestyle if we so choose to do so.

If there was no such thing as dominance, is it still a "gift" for there would be no one or nothing to offer said "gift" to. As you said a gift is something that you give to someone that you cannot or should not take back. A submissive at anytime can step out of the relationship if she/he so desires so where's the gift in that?.

It's kind of like the yin to the yang thing, they compliment each other and form the circle that we call our relationship within the realm of D/s M/s. For without one there isn't the other and the circle falls incomplete.

I am NOT intrigued by what service a submissive/slave can do for me, what intrigues me most is the depth of her servitude.

There is a difference, I can hire someone to clean my house or do the tasks that I may not choose to do. A D/s M/s household is all about balance and trade offs.These things can and should be discussed and negoiated before a household is ever formed.

D/s M/s is NOT all the glamour and romance you read about in these lifestyle websites and erotica sites. It's damn hard work, on both ends of the spectrum. Too often people get caught up in the headspace of D/s, M/s and forget that they are dealing with people first and foremost who have feelings, wants, needs and desires just like everyone else.

[Cajun_dee]

Thank you for saying that sassy_girl! I absolutely abhor the word "gift" when one uses it in relation to their submission or dominance. This "gift" idea was merely created in the online fantasies that you read about the D/s M/s lifestyle which in my opinion automatically gives a submissive the false idea that she is a step above the Dominant in her position within the lifestyle.

I am NOT intrigued by what service a submissive/slave can do for me, what intrigues me most is the depth of her servitude.

There is a difference, I can hire someone to clean my house or do the tasks that I may not choose to do. A D/s M/s household is all about balance and trade offs.These things can and should be discussed and negoiated before a household is ever formed.

D

I love that one.. depth of servitude.. I would do anything to make the household member's day go a little brighter, or smoother.. because I want to. I don't go around asking strangers if I could clean and cook for them, I am part of a chosen family and appreciate who they are and what they do for me... there is that balance. Not every household can have that, there are rivalries and jealousies etc, but in the perfect balance those things are pretty much non existent or addressed and dealt with, everything just fits.

[JustJo]

K, so I'm tiptoeing back into this thread for a minute...in part because of some of what's happening in my own life at the moment (and sorry Scoote, but some of our business is gonna show here...)

As I've said before, I get pleasure out of doing things for the people I love and, I suppose, you could call it being in service to an extent. I don't actually need or want those I'm in a relationship with to do very much for me...except for one single, very large, thing...and that is to care for me emotionally and sexually.

Sooooo....things get challenging for a variety of reasons that I choose not to share here...and my sweetie starts saying things like "you're burning yourself out, stop doing so much for everyone, we can all do things for ourselves, stop waiting on everyone, etc."

I have tried to explain that I enjoy doing things for my family...and that to stop doing that doesn't help me feel better...it actually makes me feel disconnected and worse. What I need is emotional and sexual connection...not to sit on the couch while everyone makes their own meal.

Somehow, though, I don't seem to be conveying this in a way that she can understand....so I guess I'm asking for some help in finding the words.

Anyone here know what I mean, and have a better way to help me describe it? I'm feeling :seeingstars: and need a hand...

[Tommi]

Knowing that feelings of another may be deeply involved when one offers and has the passion or simple nicety to care for me, or to just please me, whether to do so in love, lust, service, or submission, I am aware of the edge.

The line drawn between us, or the line tying us depends on my acknowledgment and desire. Can I abuse and misuse it. Absolutely.

I appreciate the kinds of things you mentioned JustJo, and know that some people are just designed that way. This may not be understood by those that care about them, because other's can take advantage of those that are giving, because they like getting. Balance and motives are words that you may want to keep on your keyring.

[Words]

]

Here is my read on this and this is my POV and not what others may feel or read.

Your expectations of what kind of praise set you up for failure. You go into these relationships with the ideal you are giving a gift and you should be hip hip hurrayed.

You seem to want constant praise and recognition for doing your services and if you do not get them then you become burrowed down in the fact this is not happening so you then lose your umph for service..

I love my boys, and I appreciate them fully, do I go around singing their glory at every task they complete? No.

It is what they are to do, it is what is expected of them, now when they fine tune details and put their own special touches and go out of their way, I beam with pride and will utter a few words, I may not but I will touch them or smile kindly.

That's it.

Don't get me wrong I am humbled by their service to me, and I am honored, will I throw them ticker tape parades?

No.

Does that make me an unappreciative Dom in anyone's eyes?

I don't care.

They are my safe haven be it I have a good day, they are who I turn to if need to and they are who I can confide, this is (from what I was taught) the glories of this position, to be the ears, eyes and rock if need be for your Owner.

I could be wrong though.

Perhaps, if you find a good Dom one that fits you, you will enter this with humility and you will have a happy, healthy, exchange that will fulfill you, if not you can always bottom here and there and negotiate pats on the head every half hour.

Good Luck

I love this post.

Just saying.

Words

[IrishGrrl]

Wow, some of the thoughts here are taking me aback. Maybe it's just the wording I dont know.

I do look at my submission and service as a gift. It's something that I am giving freely to that person, without expecting anything in return for it.To me that is the meaning of the word gift. I will say, I wont give it to someone who does not appreciate it, or take it for granted. I give it because something in that person has inspired my respect, love, and admiration. It is wonderful to exchange these "gifts" of ourselves to another whom we care for. This is the way in which I choose to present my affections. Is it not a gift when I am given of thier time, talents, respect in return. I would say so, and for me, the most beautiful gift of all.

Irish

[Chancie]

<-- Devil's Advocate

I used to know a Daddy whose honey was her girl. The Daddy took care of her girl in many thoughtful ways, but the truth was, the girl was terrible at taking care of herself. I used to think, Where's the gift of her submission? She isn't capable of living independently. There's no gift there; there's just dependence.

And likewise, what if a daddy or a dom/me can't take care of their own home and their own chores? Can we engage in a D/s relationship just because we don't want to do our own laundry?

[Syr]

Good point Miss Chancie, It is unfortunate but true. There are those that hide their inadequacies and weaknesses in this way. It is a sad thing to see.


<-- Devil's Advocate

I used to know a Daddy whose honey was her girl. The Daddy took care of her girl in many thoughtful ways, but the truth was, the girl was terrible at taking care of herself. I used to think, Where's the gift of her submission? She isn't capable of living independently. There's no gift there; there's just dependence.

And likewise, what if a daddy or a dom/me can't take care of their own home and their own chores? Can we engage in a D/s relationship just because we don't want to do our own laundry?

[adorable]

It would seem like an awful lot to go through just to get your laundry done.


There are dysfunctional BDSM relationships in the same way there are dysfunctional vanilla relationships. It's an exchange of power. So if both people aren't both getting something positive out of the exchange then there doesn't seem to be much point to the relationship.

I don't consider what I give to be a gift because I do expect things of my Sir, and He expects things of me. We negotiate. I am giving Him something and He is giving me something. I haven't been doing this for years and years - so I might not get it - but I know that for us it's about balance.

Some people would look at us from the outside and consider it to be dependance. The only part people see though is us actually being silly in public - maybe with me pretending to pout outside of Louis Vuitton and saying "But Daaddddy!!"

They have no idea that He actually decides when I eat or if I do for the day.

Is that dependence? No way. That is negotiated. Obviously, I have no problem speaking my mind or knowing when to eat. For me the exchange is hot. I love it. I allow Him to decide that for me because I can chose to give up that power to Him. I don't need Him to thank me for giving Him that power. His doing it is enough.

That to me is far different then being an abusive relationship where I have no choice. One where if I don't do what I'm told there are consquences because nothing has been negotiated. I don't have a say in what happens, I'm not listened to and I'm at the mercy of another person. I get nothing out of that. There is no power exchange, just a power trip and I am subjected to their whim. It's not fun or hot. And it doesn't fullfill a need for me.

[Tommi]

<-- Devil's Advocate

I used to know a Daddy whose honey was her girl. The Daddy took care of her girl in many thoughtful ways, but the truth was, the girl was terrible at taking care of herself. I used to think, Where's the gift of her submission? She isn't capable of living independently. There's no gift there; there's just dependence.

And likewise, what if a daddy or a dom/me can't take care of their own home and their own chores? Can we engage in a D/s relationship just because we don't want to do our own laundry?


Chancie, good point. I have seen that Happens in all kind of relationships, if one let's it.

[Diva]

I can't even begin to thank Y'all enough for how much I have learned in this thread.

But THANK YOU!

[DomnNC]

K, so I'm tiptoeing back into this thread for a minute...in part because of some of what's happening in my own life at the moment
As I've said before, I get pleasure out of doing things for the people I love and, I suppose, you could call it being in service to an extent. I don't actually need or want those I'm in a relationship with to do very much for me...except for one single, very large, thing...and that is to care for me emotionally and sexually.

If I'm correct in hearing what you are saying is that you love doing things for all members in your household and sometimes it can be a bit overwhelming because you aren't getting what you need in return and that's the emotional and physical connection. It's not the actual caring of the others that is overwhelming, it's just the lack of recognition and/or the caretaking of your emotional and physical wellbeing.

I'm not sure how many are in your household or how many you answer to there but perhaps what is needed is that a date night be created for you and your Dominant. Just a night out for yourselves, (let the other members of the household fend for themselves that night) go out and have a nice dinner, then some alone time for that emotional, physical and sexual connection. I'd dare say even if that entails just getting a hotel room or something for that night where ya'll can just focus on each other and be assured of that alone time.

Also, it wouldn't hurt I do believe if the other members of the household gave you recognition for all the hard work that you put in for them to make their lives easier. It doesn't have to be anything dramatic, perhaps just a simple thank you, or a card stating their thanks. Perhaps they can even help you out on some of these things that you do now and again, perhaps they can even prepare a meal for the household once a week or once a month depending on how you feel about that. No one likes to be the maid every day of the week, every month of the year, so to speak.

Just a few suggestions, I wish you all well in your endeavors.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Jo, I feel you here, and I am going to have to agree with NC on this, when I see any of the slaves get tired, worn out, I make em sit tell them they are going to relax and I am going to cook dinner, pick up the house do laundry etc. I tend to work around the house side by side with mine, and that is OK Jo.

I have kids as well, and we run a household where everyone does a task from bit to little. The slaves are not everyone's slaves they are mine. Household duties and other such things fall into their service but damn not to the point where there is burn out. No one likes a broken toy. This is where the Dominant needs to use a strong arm and make their property relax and just take a day for themselves, or task them to so that it's scheduled and seen as part of their service.

I hope that makes sense Jo :)

[JustJo]

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who responded...both in the thread and privately...it really does help. :rrose:

[Cajun_dee]

K, so I'm tiptoeing back into this thread for a minute...in part because of some of what's happening in my own life at the moment (and sorry Scoote, but some of our business is gonna show here...)

As I've said before, I get pleasure out of doing things for the people I love and, I suppose, you could call it being in service to an extent. I don't actually need or want those I'm in a relationship with to do very much for me...except for one single, very large, thing...and that is to care for me emotionally and sexually.

Sooooo....things get challenging for a variety of reasons that I choose not to share here...and my sweetie starts saying things like "you're burning yourself out, stop doing so much for everyone, we can all do things for ourselves, stop waiting on everyone, etc."

I have tried to explain that I enjoy doing things for my family...and that to stop doing that doesn't help me feel better...it actually makes me feel disconnected and worse. What I need is emotional and sexual connection...not to sit on the couch while everyone makes their own meal.

Somehow, though, I don't seem to be conveying this in a way that she can understand....so I guess I'm asking for some help in finding the words.

Anyone here know what I mean, and have a better way to help me describe it? I'm feeling :seeingstars: and need a hand...


((((( Jo )))))) Ahhh the guilt of those we love doing for themselves..

IF this were me ( and I assure you I am probably not the best person for advice here, but I've been learning a great deal about communication) I would name some specifics, saying *disconnected emotionally and sexually* could mean many things to many people. How about... *When you do this, I feel that * sort of thing? It could be more effective. Maybe because I am not good with the gray area, I need specifics to understand.

Sometimes people just truly don't connect. You can say the words all day long but not everyone gets to the connecting part. Even IF they do, not everyone feels they can meet the needs of those they love.

[christie]

Submission - is it the gift that keeps on giving or is it no refunds/no exchanges/nonreturnable?

Its always really bothered me to hear of folks talking of submission/service as a gift. I may/may not have referred to it as a gift on occasion but not in the way that I think its being used here. I think it opens the door to misconceptions and well, we all know how those roll out.

To me, a gift implies giving without expectation of any reciprocation. If we give my momma a birthday present, its not that we expect its return nor do we expect her to feel an obligation to us in any way.

I can honestly state that in my years within BDSM, I have yet to meet the submissive/slave/bottom who submits/services/bottoms without, at the very least, the expectation of their need of submit/service/bottom/masochism/martyrdom being met. To me, that just isn't how I define a gift.

I see a gift as returnable. I give you a coffee maker and you can hightail it down to Wally World and return it. How do you return submission? What happens to that precious gift when the D/s or M/s relationship ends? Do you take it back and re-gift it?

I also see my not having a say in the disposition of a gift. Within D/s or even M/s relationships, there is, at the very least, discussion and negotiation. How do I give you something and then expect to have a say in how you use it? And yet, we see this happen all the time. Even in M/s dynamics, there is discussion and negotiation at the beginning. I've heard submissives openly state that they wouldn't bottom unless they were getting fucked. To me, that isn't gifting - that's quid pro quo.

As sassy mentioned, and I agree, I see it as an honor and as Irish said, for me, it usually happens when I am inspired. To me, the power exchanges are a level of intimacy that supercedes the other dynamics of our relationship and are usually more pure, more honest - well, just more.

[Cajun_dee]

Submission - is it the gift that keeps on giving or is it no refunds/no exchanges/nonreturnable?

I
As sassy mentioned, and I agree, I see it as an honor and as Irish said, for me, it usually happens when I am inspired. To me, the power exchanges are a level of intimacy that supercedes the other dynamics of our relationship and are usually more pure, more honest - well, just more.

So i guess its safe to say we look at the word *gift* in regard to submission in different lights... very interesting! I love the different points of view.

I take my submission seriously and phrasing it as a *gift* softens that a bit? I signed up for this... The Dom has much responsibility and lots of time put into keeping things right, connecting with subs everyday, and keeping a balance.... its a lot of work! I appreciate this! In return I give the best most vulnerable part of me, to be trusted and cared for.

Can't put a price on that..

[ravfem]

She said to me,

"I aim to teach you to ask me for what you want when I tell you to."

my heart skipped a beat and i immediately thought, "no, i can't"....

but i was thrilled a little bit at that thought too.....

why?

my thought process is that it doesn't truly matter what i want, it matters what she wants. i'm just lucky that when i am doing what she wants, i get pleasure and fulfillment too. It makes my soul soar to please her.

i hate thinking sometimes. :seeingstars:

[aurora]

Very, very interesting thread. As someone mentioned, there are many right answers based on each person's experience with service. For my experience serving Syr Bebo for more than 15 years, I would say that part of what I do is gift, part of what I do is me doing what my DNA is programmed to do which is serve, and part of what I do has the expectation of reward or appreciation from my Syr.
I am a professional that runs a busy clinic and am not in the home for much of the week, but I am always in service as Syr's slave. (Someone once said that if your Dominant can "yank your chain" anywhere, anytime from anywhere on the planet, you are in a 24/7 dynamic. ) There have been times when I have served with absolutely everything I had until I dropped from exahustion at the end of the day , and there have been times (like now with Sassy taking care of a lot of the home stuff) that I have a very easy go of service to Syr Bebo.

Then there is the work the Dominant does, and that is not easy either. A good Dominant takes a fair bit of time with each slave/submissive each day to educate, direct, or assess their progress and service.

Just my 2 cents worth. Each dynamic is different and what might seem like abuse in one person's eyes may be heaven for the one in the dynamic. If everyone is happy, then all is well.

Bright blessings
aurora

[Diva]

I have but had a small taste of submission........and it made me drunk.


I long for it.
It is my deepest fantasy...........my fondest desire.

[Cajun_dee]

well said Spirit Sister aurora...


Oh Diva you will rock it one day again!