Stone--Personal Definitions

[Soon]

I am curious about those who ID as *Stone* and what that specific WORD means to them on a personal and relationship level.

Is it sexual boundaries or gender ID or a combination of the two or something one cannot explain that makes one ID as *Stone*?

It may be too personal to explain--perfectly understandable (of course!). I am just wondering how all those who ID as Stone (femmes and butches) came to that ID and what that ID means to them...if they want to share of course!

If there is another thread on personal definitions of *Stone*, someone tell me quickly!

--No judgement--I am honestly curious as to what *STONE* means for people on this site.

[Gemme]

I am curious about those who ID as *Stone* and what that specific WORD means to them on a personal and relationship level.

Is it sexual boundaries or gender ID or a combination of the two or something one cannot explain that makes one ID as *Stone*?

It may be too personal to explain--perfectly understandable (of course!). I am just wondering how all those who ID as Stone (femmes and butches) came to that ID and what that ID means to them...if they want to share of course!

If there is another thread on personal definitions of *Stone*, someone tell me quickly!

--No judgement--I am honestly curious as to what *STONE* means for people on this site.





For myself, it lets others know upfront not only how I have sex but with whom I have sex.

I've always been Stone. I just didn't always have the vocabulary and knowledge to understand it. I spent way too many years feeling inadequate or "lazy" as a lover. Once I realized that not only was my type of sex allowed but celebrated in parts of this community, I felt more secure within myself.

[diamondrose]

I always knew I was different. I felt like something was wrong with me, because I didn't like feminizing (sexually and non sexually) my partners in any way. Now, I have found happiness knowing that there are others like me within the endless diversities of the GLTBQ community. Its a way of summing up who I am in my relationships and who I can date or who will fit with me in that regard. When I am with my partner(whom ever it may be) I see that person as a guy and I don't feminize them in any way.

[Sachita]

I always knew I was different. I felt like something was wrong with me, because I didn't like feminizing (sexually and non sexually) my partners in any way. Now, I have found happiness knowing that there are others like me within the endless diversities of the GLTBQ community. Its a way of summing up who I am in my relationships and who I can date or who will fit with me in that regard. When I am with my partner(whom ever it may be) I see that person as a guy and I don't feminize them in any way.

well said.

[DapperButch]

MY stone relates to who I am sexually in terms of boundaries in bed, plus the type of energy that is exchanged in bed.

I tend to see MY stone as being more of an adjective (in some ways), as it describes behavior, but there is a gender ID to it as well...but yes, hard to explain.

I am looking forward to reading this thread, thanks for starting it. I hope it remains a positive, supportive thread, throughout.

[Blade]

It means that I have boundaries, places that a partner isn't allowed to touch me because it is feminizing to me. Those same places might not be feminizing to someone else or to their last partner, they are my places and they are no touch zones.

I think sometimes I might use it as a gender marker so to speak to let folks know that if they have any interest in me relationship wise, they need to know up front I am stone. It's only fair, to be honest about those thing to start with.

Great thread Ma'am

[CherylNYC]

There is no gender marker to it for me. Being a stonefemme is all about sexual boundaries for me. I don't think I was always like this, but I'm honestly not sure. It would be too long and too personal to try to explain that here, so you can just take my word for it.

I discovered that there was a thing called a stonefemme ID because a friend told me about it a few years ago. You can imagine how much that twisted my absolutely lesbian feminist mind. I still have mixed feelings and I wish that I were, well, more versatile. This is who I am now. I work hard to accept it and myself.

My boundaries are around touching or penetrating my partner's genitals. To a lesser extent I'm not able to play with a partner's breasts. I have a wonderful time with butch cock. I'm tremendously responsive and very active in bed. I just can't... go there. And I don't know if there's even a 'why'. I just can't.

I ID strongly as a lesbian. (Does that count as a gender?) I play and partner with butch women. I'm not at all interested in men, so I don't date trans guys. Needless to say, my dating pool is rather small. Sigh.

[BullDog]

I am a stone butch. Stone for me is about my sexual preferences and who I am as a sexual being. It doesn't determine who I have sex with. It is about what I enjoy sexually, which does include boundaries, as well as energy exchange (very big for me).

In addition to being a Stone Butch I am also a lesbian, woman and female. For me, being a stone butch has nothing to do with being worried someone will "feminize me." It has to do with what I choose as my preferred energy exchange, sexual boundaries and overall sexual enjoyment. I am masculine. No one can feminize or masculinize me by how they have sex with me.

[apretty]

i'm femme and i've been with a few butches with personal sexual-boundaries. i can't even remember if they called themselves 'stone'. but the self-identifying-'stone' butches i have been with all defined stone way differently: for some it was about breasts, others vagina, others about just respecting their body and following their lead as far as what was cool, what wasn't so cool--and what was 'no way' --usually the butt, a lot of people have some butt-boundaries (and i even think that this one butch had herpes and that was her way of navigating sex stuff.)


personally, i've only been *stone* when i'm just not that into who's fucking me; somehow that goes over better than 'could you come over and do me and then go home because i can barely stand you, but i'm single and you'll do.'



oh and i have to just add a little aside: there is no feminizing touch, you think rubbing a clit in a circular motion vs. an up and down motion 'feminizes' someone? if that's true--that's a REAL delicate butch (with regards to their masculinity) that you've got on your hands, as it were.

[Guy]

It means that I have boundaries, places that a partner isn't allowed to touch me because it is feminizing to me. Those same places might not be feminizing to someone else or to their last partner, they are my places and they are no touch zones.

I think sometimes I might use it as a gender marker so to speak to let folks know that if they have any interest in me relationship wise, they need to know up front I am stone. It's only fair, to be honest about those thing to start with.

Great thread Ma'am

This definition pretty much sums it up for me also, Thank's Blade.

As a young kid I always worried about what girl is going to want to be with me, because I didn't have the right equipment.

[Gemme]

I'd just like to put this out here for us to keep in mind. None of us...NONE...ZERO...ZILCH...have the right to tell another what is and is not a feminzing touch or what is and is not a good touch for them. It's their body...it's their touch, no matter how we may see it or them.

[julieisafemme]

Just a little aside? I am not sure why you would post that. It is to me downright rude after others have come before you to share their personal feelings on what stone means.


i'm femme and i've been with a few butches with personal sexual-boundaries. i can't even remember if they called themselves 'stone'. but the self-identifying-'stone' butches i have been with all defined stone way differently: for some it was about breasts, others vagina, others about just respecting their body and following their lead as far as what was cool, what wasn't so cool--and what was 'no way' --usually the butt, a lot of people have some butt-boundaries (and i even think that this one butch had herpes and that was her way of navigating sex stuff.)


personally, i've only been *stone* when i'm just not that into who's fucking me; somehow that goes over better than 'could you come over and do me and then go home because i can barely stand you, but i'm single and you'll do.'



oh and i have to just add a little aside: there is no feminizing touch, you think rubbing a clit in a circular motion vs. an up and down motion 'feminizes' someone? if that's true--that's a REAL delicate butch (with regards to their masculinity) that you've got on your hands, as it were.

[MsDemeanor]

The problem with threads about stone is that we stones all pretty much more or less understand what we mean by "feminizing"; though the exact specifics can vary from person to person, there's a general nod of "yeah". Invariably, though, someone who is not stone will come in and make a stink or demand some textbook definition or say something derogatory, and then the whole discussion turns to shit.

[JustJo]

Hello everyone :rrose:

I've been reading this thread because I've been trying to understand the concept of "stone" better. I know that I'm not...just trying to wrap my brain around it.

So I have a, perhaps silly, question. I'm hearing that for most people it seems to be a sexual boundary issue rather than an identity issue.

Are there some out there for whom it is an identity...say comparable to butch or femme? And for whom sexual boundaries maybe don't apply or are a lesser consideration than the identity? And, if there are, what does that mean to you?

I'm not sure if this is very clear...it's one of those "don't know what I don't know" moments for me...

[Gemme]

The problem with threads about stone is that we stones all pretty much more or less understand what we mean by "feminizing"; though the exact specifics can vary from person to person, there's a general nod of "yeah". Invariably, though, someone who is not stone will come in and make a stink or demand some textbook definition or say something derogatory, and then the whole discussion turns to shit.

This is very true and can really stink for those who are reading and exploring their identity and feeling that Stone fits them. Just as soon as the discussion gets going, it stalls out.

[tcbbutch]

I am a Stonebutch and Male ID'd for myself identifying as Stone has always been the way to let others know who I am sexually. When I was dating it saved a lot of heartache and even then some out there still try to cross those boundaries..jeez..
For myself it's just that I am not connected sexually to certain body areas that others assume must be how we are all sexually satisfied. As a Stonebutch, I partner with Stonefemmes and thats a wonderful thing.
I find it such an insult to all the wonderful Stonebutches and Stonefemmes in our community that we have to constantly explain ourselves as if we are too queer for the queer community. So I hope that we can keep this thread on track for honest discussion and maybe enlightening anyone who has an honest question.

[Bit]

I am curious about those who ID as *Stone* and what that specific WORD means to them on a personal and relationship level.

Is it sexual boundaries or gender ID or a combination of the two or something one cannot explain that makes one ID as *Stone*?


So I have a, perhaps silly, question. I'm hearing that for most people it seems to be a sexual boundary issue rather than an identity issue.

Are there some out there for whom it is an identity...say comparable to butch or femme? And for whom sexual boundaries maybe don't apply or are a lesser consideration than the identity? And, if there are, what does that mean to you?

For me, "Stone" is about my gender. My gender is Femme--specifically, Stonefemme. It encompasses who I am and how I live my life, how I carry myself as a female-bodied person in this world; it's about boundaries, energy flows, and respect.

For me, being a Stonefemme is natural. It makes me flexible. (Yeah, I know, nobody thinks of Stones as flexible--surprise!) It means that I am able to fit well with partners who have varied gender and sexual identities.

It also means that respect is at the heart of everything I do, respect for myself and my boundaries--not just sexual, but relationship and social as well--and respect for my partner and his (or her) boundaries; as well as respect for the people around us and their relationship and social boundaries. They can keep their sexual lives to themselves, tyvm... but then, that IS a part of my social boundaries to be private about sex. You might not think so if you've known me online for very long, but this is a different space and dynamic, not at all the same here where we're analyzing/dissecting/discussing our identities and lives as, say, the neighborhood association meeting tonight!

So yes, for me, Stone is a gender ID and it encompasses WAY more than sexual boundaries. Yes, I can respect any no-fly zones. Yes, I understand how to speak and act in ways that support my partner's sexual and gender identities. Yes, I am flexible enough to be able to partner with people who might have vastly different no-fly zones--or whose no-fly zones might change over the course of the relationship.

No, sexual boundaries are not the be-all and end-all of my identity, nor are they most important part of being Stone for me. Stonefemme is a big huge identity; the word is about the totality of who I am. It's not one small limited piece of my life... it's the over-arching framework that fits into the world and makes space for me.

[apretty]

Just a little aside? I am not sure why you would post that. It is to me downright rude after others have come before you to share their personal feelings on what stone means.

how is that a little aside? oh. you're mocking my choice of words.

at any rate, i don't know how i could have been more personal in my explicit sharing of how i define stone.

sorry, i guess this is one of those instances where someone (me) isn't doing it right.*

*i've never, however, had anyone leap from my bed because they felt that i was feminizing them (read: not doing it right).

please carry on, i have no desire to turn this thread "to shit" by either defending my definition of stone or by the fact that i have zero desire to have *stone* be a part of my personal identity.

[Blade]

Yeah ok back to OP.



I am curious about those who ID as *Stone* and what that specific WORD means to them on a personal and relationship level.

Is it sexual boundaries or gender ID or a combination of the two or something one cannot explain that makes one ID as *Stone*?

It may be too personal to explain--perfectly understandable (of course!). I am just wondering how all those who ID as Stone (femmes and butches) came to that ID and what that ID means to them...if they want to share of course!

If there is another thread on personal definitions of *Stone*, someone tell me quickly!

--No judgement--I am honestly curious as to what *STONE* means for people on this site.

[Bard]

OK I will try and give my story if you will it is kind of hard for me but I know here I may not be judged.. I for a long time did not know what I was had no idea that I was stone I just kenw I was diffrent I am and alwys have been a very sexual creature.. but I just did not or could not "feel it" I would fake it just to please who I was with or just to get them to stop. I learned to be more the agressor to be more drive her more wear her out then the focus is on her not on me became very one sided. I learned to read what a woman wanted becmae a very attentive lover. then I found butch femme and I read and I learned I grew and became so sure of me. I love the dance the exchanging of energy the way my lover responds to me how I can drive her pleasure and desire chrashing it drives me. at long last I understand me it is not that a touch can feminize me it is just I freeze up .. I have to be touched in a diffrent way .. my mind my heart .. there has been once yes but only then .. at least here we understand each other and do not look at being stone as a sexual disfunction only a person with limited understanding would say that and yes the one who reached me is the one who said it :candle: Stone is just who and what I am from the inside just a block of ice and I am strong and secure in that

[Stoney]

Like Bulldog I am a stone butch lesbian womon.
After thinking a while on this I realized that there are many many reasons I guess people might think I have made this choice for myself ,
in fact not long ago I was talking to a good friend of mine and she seemed shocked when I told her I was "stone" ( this gal has known me for like 15 years..too)
shes like" OMG! YOU ARE KIDDING ME ! YOU are, YOU DONT?...!!! Whats wrong with you?"
Honestly I was shocked at how damn rude She was for one, but even more concerning was my close friend, a lesbian, will probably always think something is sexually wrong with me.
She was like " maybe you should talk to a counselor if you are "that weird" about people touching you.
what about your sexual pleasure,you dont let anyone down on you, or anything?? you need that, that cant be healthy for your mind or your body!"

( I know I know ... kinda makes ya wanna ...well, ya gotta know her .. she means well Im sure......lol)


WTF?... so heres what I told her.

Listen , I have super fantastic mind blowing orgasms.... PHYSICAL YES, IN MY genitals! sometimes even screaming, growling crying climb the walls and cause an earthquake kind!

Better than I ever could get with hand genital, or face, or whatever contact.

My breasts fed my babies , I never liked my breasts messed with, didnt turn me on, nothing, I usually always wear a sport bra or a shirt. I was heavy chested ( now Im just hangy chested ) so they kinda tangle up and get in my way.

I never wanted anyone down on me, cause I wanted to be the one doin that, it was a waste of time,time that I could be eatin' some pussy for one,gettin my turn on, making love to a womon.
IT doesn't do it for me, dont care for it, I simply dont like it.
It feels good to say it regardless of the other presumption of.... there must be a reason for that too.....
But
I think its like... some people like their feet rubbed, some dont, for some it tickles too much and some just dont want their feet touched... no specific reason.....Its kinda like that for me. I dont like my face touched either...all people are different. Because society says I am supposed to like that kind of touch doesnt going to mean I feel the need to spend years in therapy to figure out why Im not like everyone else, Im way past that , way past caring, cause I know Im not like everyone and I like it like that!

It isnt about feminizing for me either , I dont freak out if someone tries to touch I just , nicely remove their hand and go on about my biz. or simply stay dressed and explain that it is my Plan to make love" to her".

My greatest sexual pleasure is making my partner feel that she is the most desired beautiful, sexy womon in the world at that moment and the fact she is sharing her body with me , allowing me to make love to her is an appreciated honor.
That is where the spiritual comes in... I really really believe thatand feel that way!!

I respect the fact that all Womyn are Goddesses and I treat them as such.
I ask no one for anything sexually they woudnt want to do, and somethings I wouldnt do, even if I was asked, with that same respect. Womyn have been demoralized, stereotyped , made guilty, expected of, called bitches and whores, called frigid, ,, emotional, needy,and made to feel unattractive , unsexy, fat, for whatever reason different than a barbie doll for more than 5000 years by society and , well, lets face it... men ,
so I dont partake in sexual things Im afraid may hurt her in someway......Maybe Im a prude, maybe Im old, maybe Im boring, but.... thats me, old fashioned, old school or whatever.

for me Stone means:
I am a womon who gets my sexual pleasure and orgasm from the act of making love to a womon with out need of desire for genital stimulation by my partner.

Over the years the "stone " part gradually evolved during this journey to create myself.
( By the way I kinda feel thats what we all really do throughout this life here , find what resonates with us according to our experiences and our inner perspective and we begin to aspire to maintain that energy , and with it " create ourselves ".)

Stoney

cool thread BTW


( yeah... I got junk...just like any other womon...prolly wouldnt wanna see it anyways.... lol)

[Jet]

Interesting.

I've asked three stone femmes what is meant by stone and I got three different answers.

[Gemme]

Interesting.

I've asked three stone femmes what is meant by stone and I got three different answers.

That will happen with individuals. :)

[Stoney]

Is there something Im missing here?

what is this post about?????


and.......hmmmmm....

what is it you are trying to convey pertaining to your " stone" sexuality


maybe Im just not grasping the gist of it.. IDK?



i'm femme and i've been with a few butches with personal sexual-boundaries. i can't even remember if they called themselves 'stone'. but the self-identifying-'stone' butches i have been with all defined stone way differently: for some it was about breasts, others vagina, others about just respecting their body and following their lead as far as what was cool, what wasn't so cool--and what was 'no way' --usually the butt, a lot of people have some butt-boundaries (and i even think that this one butch had herpes and that was her way of navigating sex stuff.)


personally, i've only been *stone* when i'm just not that into who's fucking me; somehow that goes over better than 'could you come over and do me and then go home because i can barely stand you, but i'm single and you'll do.'



oh and i have to just add a little aside: there is no feminizing touch, you think rubbing a clit in a circular motion vs. an up and down motion 'feminizes' someone? if that's true--that's a REAL delicate butch (with regards to their masculinity) that you've got on your hands, as it were.


and ..... the above...in red ...pardon me but.... errr hmmmm WTF are you talking about?????

this about being "stone", not being stoned.


Have a nice day.....
Stoney

[Nat]

I thought I was stone for a while in that I had issues penetrating another person. I found it upsetting and it turned me off. In my case, though, it was a stopping place on my own journey, rather than the final port of call.

I eventually figured out I was deeply afraid of violating another person, that when I went there, it bothered me because of this fear - to the point where I was dissociating a bit. On top of that, I was just new and I hate being bad at stuff. :)

Over time and in increments, what part of me I considered stone went away. I am still extremely concerned with knowing boundaries and with trusting my lover to have a strong "no" should she ever need to use it, because I don't want to find out after the fact that something I have done made another person feel violated. It's still a really deep fear. Having confidence and trust in this respect has just really allowed me to be in my own skin and just be able to enjoy (relish) those experiences which I was most reticent about before. Plus, it helps when you're with somebody just really amazing. :)

Even though I'm not stone anymore, I am really grateful to those stone femmes who were there for me back then. Without several wise stone femme voices, I may have mistakenly felt during that time that maybe I wasn't queer after all or queer enough. I was very recently out of a straight marriage at that time, and I was so unsteady on my feet. The voices and presence of stone people within the community really made me feel like there was a home for me here whether or not I had the capacity or desire to perform to the standards and reciprocity levels that I may have otherwise felt were expected of me.

[Random]

oh and i have to just add a little aside: there is no feminizing touch, you think rubbing a clit in a circular motion vs. an up and down motion 'feminizes' someone? if that's true--that's a REAL delicate butch (with regards to their masculinity) that you've got on your hands, as it were.

I have to disagree with you..

You can speak about how it works for you, maybe people you play with, but you don't get to set the rules on what makes someone feel uncomfortable with their sex play..

I have an ex, that it didn't matter how high he was.. how turned out he was.. if I worked him a certaint way, it shut him down sexually.. It made him feel like a woman and that didn't match what was going on in his head..

According to him.. one way felt like a clit, another way felt like a cock..

Who is anyone to say someone is delicate because of the way something physically feels?

[Daryn]

For me, "Stone" is about my gender. My gender is Femme--specifically, Stonefemme. It encompasses who I am and how I live my life, how I carry myself as a female-bodied person in this world; it's about boundaries, energy flows, and respect.

For me, being a Stonefemme is natural. It makes me flexible. (Yeah, I know, nobody thinks of Stones as flexible--surprise!) It means that I am able to fit well with partners who have varied gender and sexual identities.

It also means that respect is at the heart of everything I do, respect for myself and my boundaries--not just sexual, but relationship and social as well--and respect for my partner and his (or her) boundaries; as well as respect for the people around us and their relationship and social boundaries. They can keep their sexual lives to themselves, tyvm... but then, that IS a part of my social boundaries to be private about sex. You might not think so if you've known me online for very long, but this is a different space and dynamic, not at all the same here where we're analyzing/dissecting/discussing our identities and lives as, say, the neighborhood association meeting tonight!

So yes, for me, Stone is a gender ID and it encompasses WAY more than sexual boundaries. Yes, I can respect any no-fly zones. Yes, I understand how to speak and act in ways that support my partner's sexual and gender identities. Yes, I am flexible enough to be able to partner with people who might have vastly different no-fly zones--or whose no-fly zones might change over the course of the relationship.

No, sexual boundaries are not the be-all and end-all of my identity, nor are they most important part of being Stone for me. Stonefemme is a big huge identity; the word is about the totality of who I am. It's not one small limited piece of my life... it's the over-arching framework that fits into the world and makes space for me.

From my ME place, my experience is that you are a rarity......

But as for what stone means, that's been an evolving concept for me partially due to discussions with folks like Bit. I used to think stone encompassed pretty specific sexual boundaries. But I have shifted my view that it's about whatever sexual boundaries might be negotiated. And because I have some boundaries (that I feel no need to get detailed about) I fit Bit's definition of stone even I don't fit what I used to understand as the generic definition of stone.

Again from my ME place, stone is there for me but more background and less foreground. Identity is a very individual thing and what is important to one person may be much less important to another.

I've also found that my understanding of self and identity has evolved over time. Some of it is learning to be comfortable in your own skin. Some of it is learning from other people's thoughts and experiences.

[apretty]

Random: I don't feel as though I can respond because I'm not responding from a place of 'embracing my stone' identity. sorry, my words will have to stand on their own.

To all: I hoped to add to the variety of ways that we use 'stone'--I'm sorry that I lacked reverence for the stone identity.

[Random]

I think about stone quite often..

There are so many different ways.. so many different definitions...

For me.. for former partners..

I'm very flexable in my sexual desire.. For me it's all about the energy exchange.. That is what sparks the desire for what..

When I am dominant... I really don't want to be touched.. It doesn't feel good because I have been so out of my body focusing on my partner...
It's actually anoying because I have completly retreated into my mind and am concentrating on my partners body, her mind set... how can I take her higher, does she respond to this?...

For me.. it is a different kind of turn on.. It's completly mental and it's intoxicating... It's very rare for me to want to be sexualy touched when in this mind frame..

When I am submissive... I don't reach for breast or between legs... I touch the back, sides, chest, arms, legs, stomake, ass... I'm not avoiding anything.. It's just not what attracts my attention... It's not what feels natural to me...

When I am with a partner who is stone... well.. pretty much, I go where the energy manifests... I will leave it at that...

Human sexuality take on so many different forms... For me.. if it feels organic and natural... if it feels good.. then yea....

[Random]

Random: I don't feel as though I can respond because I'm not responding from a place of 'embracing my stone' identity. sorry, my words will have to stand on their own.

To all: I hoped to add to the variety of ways that we use 'stone'--I'm sorry that I lacked reverence for the stone identity.

Very nice cop out...

your lack of reverence for something that shouldn't be revered any more than any other sexual id isn't the problem.. Your judging people for what is true or right for them is...

[Random]

Sorry Ms. Junie Ma'ma...

I will play nice..

[Bit]

From my ME place, my experience is that you are a rarity......

I understand--and I truly hope your experience will change, and you will discover lots of other people like me. *kotc*

But as for what stone means, that's been an evolving concept for me partially due to discussions with folks like Bit. I used to think stone encompassed pretty specific sexual boundaries. But I have shifted my view that it's about whatever sexual boundaries might be negotiated. And because I have some boundaries (that I feel no need to get detailed about) I fit Bit's definition of stone even I don't fit what I used to understand as the generic definition of stone.

Your comment ties into something I've been thinking a lot about, the "generic definition of stone." I personally believe that when people define "Stone" as merely a physical part of sex, they are leaving out two-thirds of it. It isn't just what you physically do or don't touch. There's also the gender component and the relationship component. For example, if I am with a Stone Butch and I'm using the correct kind of touching in the correct area (whatever kind of touching that particular Butch prefers in whatever area is preferred), then I am meeting the physical component of being Stone.

BUT if I am using the wrong pronouns and terminology as I do so, I am failing utterly to meet the gender component of Stone. This would be as true if I were to use male pronouns and terminology for a female-identified Stone Butch as it would be if I were to use female terms and pronouns for a male-identified Stone Butch. This example might be pretty obvious and y'all might be saying "duh!" but think about this... there are Butches who are only male-identified during sex, and who at other times are completely okay with a female identity. There are Butches who need to be acknowledged with male pronouns and terms whenever they're packing or binding, but who are okay with female terms and pronouns otherwise. There are also Butches who are only comfortable with Butch pronouns (hy, hym, hys). For me, part of the flexibility inherent in being a Stonefemme is the ability to wrap my mind around which part of the gender terminology fits where, and at which times. This is a second component of being Stone.

From what I have experienced so far of the relationship component of being Stone, most Stone Butches are extremely protective of their partners and expect to be allowed to act publicly on that. Stonefemmes are also protective, but in my experience we tend to express it differently, more quietly.

I believe that although Stone relationships are NOT the same as Leather or BDSM relationships (not to say Stones don't enjoy those relationships, just that they are not synonymous), there IS a deliberate element of power exchange built into the Stone relationship dynamic; from what I have seen and experienced, it's very common for a Stonefemme to be the wife and a Stone Butch to be, if not the husband, the husbutch, in a more old-fashioned, less strictly egalitarian kind of relationship. Being acknowledged as head of the household seems to be important to many Stone Butches. This is not universal by any means, but it is truly common, so common that it often (usually?) colors the way Stone Butches interact with Stonefemmes even when they are friends and not partners. So for me, respecting this relationship dynamic is a third component of being Stone.

Many thanks to a correspondent who asked me some questions privately that sparked this thought process. I don't think I'd articulated these three components in quite this way for myself before, and I appreciate the chance to do so now.

When I am with a partner who is stone... well.. pretty much, I go where the energy manifests...

What a wonderful way to put it!! Yes, exactly so for me--I go where the energy manifests! Thank you for this elegantly concise statement!

[Kätzchen]

HSIS??? Hi there!

On what being "Stone" means to me:

(on a sensual/sexual level): A part of me wants to say that I identify with being Stone because of my system of boundaries. I prefer my lover/partner to be Stone because I view myself as receiving in sensual/sexual ways and submitting to the flow of energy exchange, in this type of relationship dynamic. This feels natural to me.

(on a personal level): My willingness to take on a Stone identity also infers that I am okay with being on my own and cognizant that my Femme-ness (and relationship skills) compliments - as if dovetailing with greatest of ease - with other beings who identify with being Stone.

:blueheels:

PS/ It's good to read other thoughts pertaining to how one percieves being Stone.

[Daryn]

Bit, one of the things I want to tease out of you is clarification on this....

"it's very common for a Stonefemme to be the wife and a Stone Butch to be, if not the husband, the husbutch, in a more old-fashioned, less strictly egalitarian kind of relationship"

Can you touch on or give examples of how you think it's "a less strictly egalitarian relationship"? The reason I ask is that when I think of an old-fashioned relationship, I think of my nonna and her second husband (not married to the first for very long and so this the relationship I saw her in all my life). They got married in the '30s. They were both working class and both held jobs outside of the house. Within the house, she cooked, he washed dishes, she did laundry, he did yard work (but she had a veggie garden which he tilled and then she tended with occassional help), they divided house cleaning. He might have worn the pants and done the driving if they were both in the car, but she was a powerful force in that house. They had their ups and downs. But they stuck it out through everything. And I never saw her as less than equal to him not even as a kid.

Admittedly, there were very different dynamics in the house I grew up in. But I would have never called my parents old-fashioned either nor are either of them traditional in much of any sense, except for my father trying to be an MCP.

[Bit]

Ah but Daryn, I wasn't thinking about straight relationships when I posted... I was thinking about the kind of Lesbian Feminist relationships I came out of, where everything was strictly equal and exact reciprocity was the rule--you know, "I go down on you, so you must go down on me; I go out to work so you must go out to work; I cooked supper tonight so you must cook supper tomorrow"--strictly reciprocal in all things, yanno?

So to me, a Stone relationship is a relationship between equals, yes, but it's a power exchange and things are not set up to be strictly reciprocal.

[Daryn]

Ah but Daryn, I wasn't thinking about straight relationships when I posted... I was thinking about the kind of Lesbian Feminist relationships I came out of, where everything was strictly equal and exact reciprocity was the rule--you know, "I go down on you, so you must go down on me; I go out to work so you must go out to work; I cooked supper tonight so you must cook supper tomorrow"--strictly reciprocal in all things, yanno?

So to me, a Stone relationship is a relationship between equals, yes, but it's a power exchange and things are not set up to be strictly reciprocal.

OK. That makes sense to me. It's been a long time since I was in a relationship anything like you are describing and I've never seen that as any kind of *for me* iconic relationship.

[Jett]

I'm not really up for throwing the details of my sex life out on the internet so I'm keeping it pretty general.

To me in my life stone has to do with personal sexual likes and desires. I've found this is the one thing in my experience, the sole commonality of "stone" (this outside of those who use it just as another way to say hard butch).

For myself, rather than being concerned about some "feminizing" touch or gender concerns (I'm still "she" and my "masculinity" can't be affected in the least by bedroom activities, no matter what I or someone does) but it's about certain set boundaries I have and prefer respected exactly as I would want to respect anothers.

I can't be "feminized" by touch, besides it's not something I'm thinking about in the hot and heavy and it's not upsetting in any way if a line is accidentally crossed... people just have to gently let each other know what's up at that point.

I sure as hell aren't going to get all upset over it, nor would I want someone all overly worried about it, I'm not breakable... lol.

[Oneida]

I sure as hell aren't going to get all upset over it, nor would I want someone all overly worried about it, I'm not breakable... lol.

You are consistently one of my favorite posters (not posers) here. :-) Have a great weekend!

[Stoney]

Okay heres some questions I would like to throw out there and hear some feed back.

If a woman is in a relationship with a stone butch , is she now a stone femme?
Does that change an identity if the person you are with is stone? or would you simply identify as femme?
If you would be changing your style of sex out of respect for the person you were with or is it a lifestyle you would continue to pursue even in a different relationship? also would a woman who identifies as a stone femme whether in a relationship or not only look to date a stone butch?

I know for me, being Stone isnt an issue if it was a casual thing but what about a different senerio, you fall in love with a person who wasnt stone before, or maybe you fall in love with a stone butch and you arent....would you always feel like something was missing? Would you miss making love to a woman? I always wondered if my partner was feeling restricted from something she may desire to do with me or to me , just like I do her.

stone butches...
Has being stone been greeted with the wide eye " your Kiddings" like I described in a previous post in this thread?

Do you tell people you are stone, I mean in the general community, not Butch-femme? is it something personal you only share with your partner?...
Honestly I dont just put that out there. It isnt a common knowlege thing among my Friends, except here, online. I only cross that bridge if I come to it I guess.

I know in my group of lesbian / gay friends although there is the stereotypical look of butch-femme dynamics in a few of the couples I know , But none as "obviously Defined as my own. In fact many use the word "butch" almost negatively.

as in " see that girl over there, God she's so Butch..eewwww.".....yeah well, as in yuck.


But most of those girls, I am 15yrs their senior...... , I dont know. " they call me old school"........
Maybe .. Im just old ..lol

but anyways.. thats probably enough to get a convo going I hope. thanks all!

Much Peace, Stoney

[Blade]

I'm in Orange


stone butches...
Has being stone been greeted with the wide eye " your Kiddings" like I described in a previous post in this thread? No not at all, people I've talked to online and met in person are respectful of it if it is brought up in conversation. Sometimes people have questions about why or how or whatever.

Do you tell people you are stone, I mean in the general community, not Butch-femme? is it something personal you only share with your partner?...Well I think it is a personal topic, not something I'd just be telling someone out of the blue oh and by the way I'm stone. I think unless they were of our community they'd look at me like I had 3 heads, wondering wtf is stone.
Honestly I dont just put that out there. It isnt a common knowlege thing among my Friends, except here, online. I only cross that bridge if I come to it I guess.

I know in my group of lesbian / gay friends although there is the stereotypical look of butch-femme dynamics in a few of the couples I know , But none as "obviously Defined as my own. In fact many use the word "butch" almost negatively.
Until I came online I never liked or used the word butch. Actually the first time I heard the word, I was wearing a uniform at work and my boss said that color on you makes you look to butch. To which I replied who the hell is Butch, Butch who. LOL

as in " see that girl over there, God she's so Butch..eewwww.".....yeah well, as in yuck.


But most of those girls, I am 15yrs their senior...... , I dont know. " they call me old school"........
Maybe .. Im just old ..lol

but anyways.. thats probably enough to get a convo going I hope. thanks all!

Much Peace, Stoney

[Canela]

Very interesting thread...enjoying it very much...







:blueheels:

[Jack]

oh and i have to just add a little aside: there is no feminizing touch, you think rubbing a clit in a circular motion vs. an up and down motion 'feminizes' someone? if that's true--that's a REAL delicate butch (with regards to their masculinity) that you've got on your hands, as it were.

I had two count to ten before I responded to this, It made me so Fucking mad.
How dare you make such a statement.

Let me tell you this, from the horses mouth shall I ?

I am Butch . I am Masculine. I am GenderQueer.

I am not Transitioning, as yet...but maybe one day might get to that place.

I only get off on your ' up and down motion'....

...circular , would not do it for me one bit.....in fact , it would kill it because ya know what ? It would make me feel feminized.

I'll tell you why shall I ? Because when you are rubbing my clit, actualy you are wanking my cock, get it ?

My lovers DO !!

This does not make me a 'delicate butch with regards to my masulinity.' It makes me ME !

Who the hell are you to put out there what does and doesnt feminize a masculine person ? and then mock them ?

Damn , you made me mad.

[Stoney]

Thank you so much for tour reply Blade, We have much in common.

[Jet]

I had two count to ten before I responded to this, It made me so Fucking mad.
How dare you make such a statement.

Let me tell you this, from the horses mouth shall I ?

I am Butch . I am Masculine. I am GenderQueer.

I am not Transitioning, as yet...but maybe one day might get to that place.

I only get off on your ' up and down motion'....

...circular , would not do it for me one bit.....in fact , it would kill it because ya know what ? It would make me feel feminized.

I'll tell you why shall I ? Because when you are rubbing my clit, actualy you are wanking my cock, get it ?

My lovers DO !!

This does not make me a 'delicate butch with regards to my masulinity.' It makes me ME !

Who the hell are you to put out there what does and doesnt feminize a masculine person ? and then mock them ?

Damn , you made me mad.

bravo.................

[Gemme]

If a woman is in a relationship with a stone butch , is she now a stone femme?

Does that change an identity if the person you are with is stone? or would you simply identify as femme?


A situation doesn't change one's identity. Neither does one's partner. That person does. Or doesn't.

If you date someone of another religion, does that make you an automatic convert?

True story: I met and fell in like with a lovely Transguy. We got along rather well until it was made quite clear to me that, in order to be with him, I would have to be straight.

Um, no.

So, many discussions, fights, and tears later I left the relationship. Both of us were disappointed in the other and that's a sad state to be in simply because he needed a straight girl and I needed a queer guy. Two dissimilar objects trying to fit into the same square. A square that neither of us fit.

My identity is hard won. I have fought everyone...lovers, ex husbands, strangers and myself...for this identity. If anyone wants it, they are going to have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.

[Bit]

Stoney's questions: If a woman is in a relationship with a stone butch , is she now a stone femme?

Cath: Not as far as I'm concerned, and I'll tell you why. For me personally and according to the other Stonefemmes who have shared with me, this identity is our own. It's not granted to us by the Stone Butch, nor is it contagious--they cannot somehow magically turn us into Stonefemmes.

This identity is consistent within us no matter whom we might choose as a partner. Many of us have had the experience of being with non-Stone Butches whom we loved very deeply and feeling just awful BECAUSE we weren't comfortable with them sexually; I myself thought I was somehow a badly defective Lesbian because I didn't enjoy "doing as was done to me," yanno? Discovering Stone Butches was a huge "coming home" after years of that kind of relationship, and believe me, the relief was so huge that I cried for weeks.

Stoney: Does that change an identity if the person you are with is stone? or would you simply identify as femme?

Cath: I think nothing external, including a partner, can change an internal identity. I will say that it might appear that way to onlookers, if the Femme is exploring her own identity and experiments with the Stonefemme label to see if it fits her, but to me that is still an internal identity exploration. I can tell you that I changed very drastically over the course of a couple years, and while the things Stone Butches and Transmen were saying served as a catalyst for the changes, it was still my own internal process. Actually, other Femmes of all kinds were a bigger influence in my identity exploration.

Stoney: If you would be changing your style of sex out of respect for the person you were with or is it a lifestyle you would continue to pursue even in a different relationship? also would a woman who identifies as a stone femme whether in a relationship or not only look to date a stone butch?

Cath: I prefer to date Stone Butches and Transmen, but I'm not limited to them. I've fallen in love with many a Butch who was neither. Gryph is neither.

Stoney: I know for me, being Stone isnt an issue if it was a casual thing but what about a different senerio, you fall in love with a person who wasnt stone before,

Cath: I admit that I was concerned! It hadn't gone so well in the past, falling in love with non-Stone Butches, and I wondered if I would be able to deal with it. What made me willing to try was that Gryph and I were completely compatible in the rest of our lives (well. Except for his infamous "butchelor pad" non-cleaning tendencies, that is), and I trusted him to be respectful of my boundaries as a Stonefemme. He is respectful of them, he does understand, and we've never had a problem.

Stoney: or maybe you fall in love with a stone butch and you arent....would you always feel like something was missing? Would you miss making love to a woman? I always wondered if my partner was feeling restricted from something she may desire to do with me or to me , just like I do her.

Cath: I've had a hard time shaking off the guilt because I wasn't "performing" the way some of my past lovers expected me to, but miss it? No. It's not my thing. I don't know any Stonefemmes who say they miss it, either... most of my friends over the years have said they, like me, are relieved to be able to concentrate on having sex that feels natural to us in relationships that work for us with partners we adore. I've heard that so consistently that I think maybe they feel that relief at finding the right kind of relationship in the same huge way I do.

Thank you for the questions!

[Stoney]

wow, nice post thank you Gemme, for an honest direct answer.

I enjoy your posts.

Stoney.

[Stoney]

Bit!

thank you so much for all your answers. I honestly have been wondering about these things for years, what you said , I have heard my partner say," it takes the pressure off, it allows her to be comfortable, because we are so compatible in that way". I was hoping my questions came off genuine because they were. I never really understoond stone femme either, till recently , I am embarrassed to admit I was wrong for a long time on that,

It has helped me to see it and understand it , we are really so much alike arent we ?

Thank you so much Bit , Love all your posts too!


Peace Stoney

[CherylNYC]

I love Bit's line about stone not being a contagious disease. Ha! I am who I am. My partners are who they are.

As for telling my friends that I'm a stonefemme, its kinda personal. Except, that is, for this website. Online communities are a funny thing. Only a very few of my close friends know this fundamental thing about me, but I wrote it loud and clear for anyone to see on my profile. Hmmm. One of the reasons I endured the incredibly irritating heteronormative posturing on the other site was that it was the only place I could interact with anyone who was like me. One of the reasons I stay active in this online community is because I find my ID so utterly isolating.

While most people have some idea what it means to be a stone butch, even my friends in the sex-positive kink community have NO IDEA what it means to be a stonefemme. When I tell them their eyes open wide in disbelief. I can't blame them. I had no idea what it meant until a few years ago. To be honest, if I were not a stonefemme I would very likely have trouble getting my head around the idea. There's still a part of me that says, "stonefemme? WTF?". I still struggle with feelings of inadequacy.

My late gf was nearly stone. She let me know in every way that we had the best sex she had in her life. That helped. A lot. My partner previous to her was not stone. She wanted me to reciprocate and neither of us knew why I just couldn't do what we both expected me to want to do in bed. She felt rejected, and I felt like a failure whenever it came up. Unfortunately she died suddenly in an accident in '03. Even though it's irrational, I still feel guilty that she died without getting what she wanted from me. We communicated a lot after she passed. I feel like she knows that I really did the best I could, and that I was only guilty of ignorance, but I soooo wish that she were alive to have that conversation with me.

I'm a BDSM masochist and a sexual bottom. Both my late partner and my late gf were big, bad- ass butch tops. That top/bottom dynamic can foster a stone sexual relationship even with couples who don't ID as stone. You know- aggressor/receiver, pitcher/catcher, dominant/submissive. That's how my late partner and I managed to have sizzling, screaming, mind-blowing sex even though we had unresolved issues around reciprocity. We both chalked it up to our sexual D/s dynamic.

It's all knotted up with guilt and mortality for me, but right now I'm just not secure enough in my stone ID to risk a romance with a butch who is not stone. I might be able to do it later in my life, but not now. I think those who can do it must have awesome communication skills. Maybe I'll get there one day.

[Stoney]

cheryl, thank you so much,

great perspective, great post,

Im learning alot .

Peace Stoney

[Toughy]

I'm a BDSM masochist and a sexual bottom. Both my late partner and my late gf were big, bad- ass butch tops. That top/bottom dynamic can foster a stone sexual relationship even with couples who don't ID as stone. You know- aggressor/receiver, pitcher/catcher, dominant/submissive. That's how my late partner and I managed to have sizzling, screaming, mind-blowing sex even though we had unresolved issues around reciprocity. We both chalked it up to our sexual D/s dynamic.

I wanted to piggyback on this idea.....

I am not sexually stone, except when I am.

When I am in Top kink space, I am about as sexually stone as you could possibly be. I am totally cock-identified and my clit is not a cock ever. I don't have a clit or breasts.

Outside of Top kink space, it is about the energy between the femme in my (her) bed and me. It's very fluid (from stone to all access) and very satisfying.

I also want to point out there are Femmes who are sexually stone.......meaning they don't want penetration or breasts played with or clit sucked. They get their pleasure from fucking/making love to the butch in their bed.

I also think everyone has sexual boundaries that must be respected. Sexual boundaries is not a phenomenon of Stone id.

[cinderella]

Wow, Bit, what a sigh of relief when I read your post!! You are describing my experience to a T. Thank you for posting this. You have reaffirmed any hint of vestigial doubt I may still have had regarding this issue. I couldn't have said it any better - very well expressed.


[QUOTE=Bit;122860]
[SIZE=3][COLOR=teal]
*snip*
This identity is consistent within us no matter whom we might choose as a partner. Many of us have had the experience of being with non-Stone Butches whom we loved very deeply and feeling just awful BECAUSE we weren't comfortable with them sexually; I myself thought I was somehow a badly defective Lesbian because I didn't enjoy "doing as was done to me," yanno? Discovering Stone Butches was a huge "coming home" after years of that kind of relationship, and believe me, the relief was so huge that I cried for weeks.

[dark_crystal]

my fetlife profile says the following:

The orientation and identity i identify strongest with is Stone Femme:
*Definition from wikipedia via the old butch-femme.com: Stone femme is a lesbian identity whose name was patterned after the more widely-known term stone butch. Identification with the term is not necessarily dependent upon the stone femme's physical appearance or gender expression, or upon the identity of the stone femme's partner.

Stone femme has many different meanings:

- a femme who is the bottom in sexual interactions
- a femme who is attracted to or partnered with masculine or stone butches; who does not wish to sexually touch her partners' genitals, or whose partner does not wish to have her/hys/his biological genitals touched
- an exceptionally femme femme
- a femme top who does not wish to be genitally stimulated or touched by her partner during sex

Some people use the term 'stone femme' to describe their identity in regards to their sexual identity or gender identity, their boundaries regarding the expression of either, or their sexual boundaries. Some stone femmes identify as queer, as dykes, and/or as lesbians. Others do not identify as lesbians due to the disconnect between the political and sexual connotations of the word and the reality of their experiences.*

This identity does have certain nuances for me- i predict many curious-about-me profile visitors will read "a femme (...) who does not wish to sexually touch her partners' genitals" with alarm- herein lies the nuance:

sexually my default mode is very passive and i could be mistaken for a “pillow princess.” NOT SO! i enjoy touching and tasting my partners in any way or amount they desire! It is just that, because i am extremely passive and submissive, i must be ordered specifically to do so. Once i am under orders my efforts are enthusiastic (and skilled!), i assure you. And no, a standing order is not affective.

[friskyfemme]

I answered this question sometime back in another forum. It generated some miscommunication. I will try not to offend others . Here goes.

'Stone' for me is who I seek for a sexual partner ('stone' butches or TGs). It's not a gender for me, but it also defines what sexual acts I do and do not find sexual stimulating. I don't enjoy performing oral sex. I don't like feeling or manipulating my partner's chest/breast. Using 'stone', helps cut through, explaining what I expect or need sexually and that I respect my partner's needs, wants, and desires.

I do, however, loved to be licked, suckled, and penetrated (fingers, dildo and cock).

I am also a 'bottom femme' but that's another thread!

[Stoney]

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

[Converse]

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

Borrowing from dark crystals definitions, I seem to recall some dialogue about Stonefemme as one word and Stone Femme as two separate words.

The latter referring to limits on how one was engaged with sexually aka Stone Butch (Stone Femme -a femme who does not wish to be genitally stimulated by her partner during sex) and the former being about ones preferences on how they related to their partners body (Stonefemme- a femme who is attracted to or partnered with masculine or stone butches; who does not wish to sexually touch her partners' genitals, or whose partner does not wish to have her/hys/his biological genitals touched).

I’m one of those that respond well to labelling, I appreciate the ‘short-cut’ introductions and the fact that it enables me not to have to constantly explain how I relate to the world. This of course only works if definitions are agreed to, understood and maintained- but perhaps life isn’t so easily navigated after all. Maybe I’m just getting grumpy in my old age, because while I’m ok with people changing what labels they feel akin to- that makes sense to me, it is when the meanings of the labels themselves change that I get frustrated.

HowSoonIsNow I appreciate you starting this thread and opening the dialogue-, and a thank you to you as well Stoney; your direct questions are how we find agreement and mutual understanding of meanings. While personal definitions are important, to me their value only comes once a universal (as in butch-femme community) understanding is reached.

[CherylNYC]

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

Yes, for better or worse, that's correct. And pretty darned confusing. There are femme women who have the same sexual boundaries typical of a stone butch. They may or may not strap, but they are the 'pitcher'. Those women are stone femmes. I believe Bit once suggested that in order to differentiate we could use 'stone femme' for a femme sexual top who does not want to be penetrated, and 'stonefemme' for a femme sexual bottom who claims the ID we've been dissecting in the above thread.

Yeah, OK, I can do that. Unfortunately the terms are barely distinguishable in print and utterly indistinguishable when spoken. What is more, the word 'stone' simply does not fit the openness and receptivity embodied by a stonefemme. 'Stone' is a wonderful descriptor for any person who does not get penetrated. 'Stone' evokes impenetrability. Which is why it always made me uncomfortable as part of the term that describes me.

Another reason I don't like the term is that using it for both a stone femme sexual top as well as a stonefemme sexual bottom will eventually erase the identity of those who are in the minority, (stone femme sexual tops). If logic prevailed, which it probably won't, 'stone' would be solely the provenance of the impenetrable.

I haven't thought of anything nearly clever enough to replace this term. I wish someone else would. I would adopt it in a heartbeat as long as it doesn't imply 'fragile flower'.

[Bit]

I hear ya, Cheryl, I really hear ya... but so far, "stonefemme" is all we've got. I know it doesn't evoke softness, receptivity, or flexibility in the least, which is utterly ironic since those are terms that seem to apply to so many of us--and that seem to also describe what so many Stone Butches find attractive in us!

I would say "girl" because that fits such a huge number of stonefemmes, but then we would be leaving out all the stonefemmes who don't identify at all as girls--and it would confuse matters horribly with all the girls who are not stonefemmes!

I honestly don't know how to find a word that would fit us all without leaving anyone out and without causing more confusion than it solves.

[CherylNYC]

I hear ya, Cheryl, I really hear ya... but so far, "stonefemme" is all we've got. I know it doesn't evoke softness, receptivity, or flexibility in the least, which is utterly ironic since those are terms that seem to apply to so many of us--and that seem to also describe what so many Stone Butches find attractive in us!

I would say "girl" because that fits such a huge number of stonefemmes, but then we would be leaving out all the stonefemmes who don't identify at all as girls--and it would confuse matters horribly with all the girls who are not stonefemmes!

I honestly don't know how to find a word that would fit us all without leaving anyone out and without causing more confusion than it solves.

You're right. 'Girl' has never been my ID, and I know far too many femmes who do ID as girls and who are not stonefemmes.

Where are all the clever coiners of terms?

[friskyfemme]

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney
Yep Stoney,

For me... you got it nailed! ;)

[Ebon]

Stone for me means I like to pleasure and I get pleasure from it. I only recently found a stone femme that I was compatible with. It made me realize that there was some hope and I didn't have to become a celibate priest after all.

[Gemme]

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

This is a actually a pretty good synopsis. :)

[ravfem]

i've struggled with my "stone femme" side for years, and still have personal issues with calling myself that. i, for whatever silly reasons, am much more comfortable calling myself a pillow princess....go figure. That term has never been a positive thing for me.... it seems to embody laziness....boy do i got issues. :huhlaugh:

Anyway, i have always been much more comfortable paired with people who are stone. my last gf was not, at all. i told her the first night we hooked up that i was a pillow princess, and after explaining what that meant, she stated she was fine with that. i tried to tell her she wouldn't be for very long, and of course she was adamant that it wouldn't be a problem. Needless to say, it eventually was. i should have known better, lesson soooo learned!

Without getting too personal, i have learned that i can be a bit more able to enjoy...giving...if it is within a Ds context. If i am told to do something, i will do it because i know it pleases them. But left to my own devices, it just isn't something i've ever been focused on. Like some others have mentioned, i too went through a stage of wondering if i was a "bad" lesbian because of my preferences.

i am gonna have to really devote some time to think about all this and process it in my head....

Thanks for the thread and all the great comments, y'all!
:byebye:

[TenderKnight]

I also think everyone has sexual boundaries that must be respected. Sexual boundaries is not a phenomenon of Stone id.

THANK TOU for this post.. I do not ID as stone, although I thought that maybe I was for a while. I do have sexual bounderies, however.. Sometimes I get very frustrated in bed, if I am not strapped. My cock is part of my sexual identity..

I have certain ways I want to be touched, there are also some things that I just don't like to do *to* a partner, because to *me*, it puts me into "lesbian" head space.. I still have memories of being a lesbian, I had a 4 year lesbian relationship.. It is a bad mindfuck for me, because then I feel femininized. I have had partners that don't get it, just as I've had partners that totally get it and enjoy the energy there.

It all comes down to mutual respecting of personal head space and bounderies for me. If a sexual partner asks me not to do something, I don't do it. It doesn't make them any less of a femme, butch, tranguy, cisguy, transwoman, or what ever they ID as.. The point is to connect with my partner and to have a good time.

There are somethings I really *need* to do with a partner I am in a relationship with.. One of those is strapping on one of my cocks and makeing love or fucking with it. If it's a hook up, it's diffrent for me.. The point there is to get off. In a relationship, the point is to share in the experience and maybe eventually, we get to get off too :)

I hope that my contribution helps add to the convo here.. As I said, I am not stone, but I *get* where being stone comes from and what it's about.

Thank you to all that have posted, I have been enjoying the read :)

-Tony

[Soon]

Some really wonderful sharing of people's personal definitions of Stone.

Thank you to all who have participated (or will!).

[cuddlyfemme]

This is an awesome thread with wonderful thoughts, comments. Like others, I thought I was a "Femme" for not wanting to give....I used the term "pillow princess" for awhile then realized that since I was much more comfortable with Stone Butches that I was (am) a Stone Femme. Like others, I encountered relationships where after I explained what a Stone Femme was, I was told that wasn't an issue....after awhile it did become an issue. I'm not sure if I would be more willing to give if I was in a D/s relationship since I've never been in one although I probably would be more giving

[cinderella]

Sister, I couldn't have said it better. Except that I didn't think of it as being 'lazy', but 'abnormal', or selfish. I lived with those feelings most of my gay life, until I found the gay/lesbian (for lack of a better word) sites. I joyously discovered that I was not selfish. I just enjoyed sex in a different way from others, and there was nothing 'abnormal' about that. In these online communities I found acceptance and understanding, and as you said, celebration in being stone.

After many years of being single, I have found love at last. My guy is just as stone as I am, and we rejoice and celebrate that aspect of our relationship - being stone. Cinderella has finally found the right 'fit'. :blueheels::stillheart:


For myself, it lets others know upfront not only how I have sex but with whom I have sex.

I've always been Stone. I just didn't always have the vocabulary and knowledge to understand it. I spent way too many years feeling inadequate or "lazy" as a lover. Once I realized that not only was my type of sex allowed but celebrated in parts of this community, I felt more secure within myself.

[asphaltcowboi]

shaped rock fragment: a piece of rock that has been shaped for a particular purpose
at first i thought stone was meant as hard core.. stone fox=very sexy, stone cold=little or no feelings,stone butch=very masculin,stone femme=very girly.
in time i realized i was stone not only verly masculine butch but had certian sexual needs that i was insistant about. the few times that i allowed myself to be "handled" "touched" on the female parts of my body i felt shame and embarassment, i just did not "id" with those parts of my body. those were parts that i had wished sence a very young age that i didnt have. it felt like she was focusing on an ugly birthmark picking on the very worst of me the part of me that i tried very hard to hide. a part i didnt want to bring into a relationship. but i was born this way so why do i not enjoy being touched?. thats not it at all i do enjoy being touched everywhere except "down there" and i do like my butch "strap" being touched as if i was born like this. not fantisy but real for me as should be for my partner also.
it comes down to for me: respect me for who i am even if it is only in our eyes. i will do the same for you. who are you and who am i?
do we have the mutual respect that will complement each others needs?

[Gráinne]

I don't profess to speak with any kind of authority on this topic, but what I have gleaned is that "stone" is a continuum, almost like gender or sexual preference itself. I see all the way from no reciprocal touch at all, to touch allowed in certain places, to being a top (or bottom), but not necessarily stone. I fall in the latter group-not opposed to being touched at all, believe me, but I get 90% of my pleasure from touching, not being touched.

Having said that, it seems to change with whomever I'm with, where my mind is going, and even the time of the month. Different energies, I guess. I might want activity A on Monday, and activity B (totally opposite mind place) on Saturday. Sexuality is a slippery beast.

Maybe, to me, the important thing isn't defining once and for all what "stone" is, since there are as many different definitions as women on this site. It's absolutely not about "well, I'm doing it "right", and you are all "wrong". It's about finding partners who are compatible with our wishes, and theirs, and then communicating and respecting the hell out of each other.

[Nightshade]

For me, it's not even remotely about top or bottom, D/s, giving vs receiving... I am an active, passionate, giving sexual partner who could never in a million years be called submissive.

I'm not a lesbian. I'm not interested in interacting with female parts. Or being with a partner who wants or needs that. So... any motivation for giving in that way is non-existent for me. Does this make me a lazy lover or a pillow princess? If I'm in bed with a woman it would.

But give me a guy who truly owns his strap-on and knows how to use it and watch out!

Also, when and if I DO touch him there, I'm stroking cock, not clit. And there's no doubt in either of our minds.

[CherylNYC]

For me, it's not even remotely about top or bottom, D/s, giving vs receiving... I am an active, passionate, giving sexual partner who could never in a million years be called submissive.

I'm not a lesbian. I'm not interested in interacting with female parts. Or being with a partner who wants or needs that. So... any motivation for giving in that way is non-existent for me. Does this make me a lazy lover or a pillow princess? If I'm in bed with a woman it would.

But give me a guy who truly owns his strap-on and knows how to use it and watch out!

Also, when and if I DO touch him there, I'm stroking cock, not clit. And there's no doubt in either of our minds.

Speaking for myself, and FOR ME only, I am a lesbian. I'm a stonefemme lesbian. Like Nightshade I can't/don't interact with female parts, but I interact enthusiastically with butch women when given half a chance.

I'm a woman who partners with and has erotic energy with females who are butch. That fits perfectly within my definition of lesbian.

[DapperButch]

This is an awesome thread with wonderful thoughts, comments. Like others, I thought I was a "Femme" for not wanting to give....I used the term "pillow princess" for awhile then realized that since I was much more comfortable with Stone Butches that I was (am) a Stone Femme. Like others, I encountered relationships where after I explained what a Stone Femme was, I was told that wasn't an issue....after awhile it did become an issue. I'm not sure if I would be more willing to give if I was in a D/s relationship since I've never been in one although I probably would be more giving

Remember, only do what is comfortable for you. There is nothing wrong with being Stone in any relationship, if that is who you are. Being true to yourself will result in you finding the right partner match.

[Starbuck]

I have read the entire thread and I can tell you all that I have learned a lot! I really appreciate the frankness and honesty with which each member has chosen to speak about their experience with this topic. (f)

[BullDog]

I am a stone butch and lesbian and my butch cock is a female body part.

[Nightshade]

I am a stone butch and lesbian and my butch cock is a female body part.

Thank you. I learn so damned much here! I've never heard it described that way before.

And as always, my absolute statements are proven incomplete and language in general is proven sorely inadequate.

People are stunningly complex and I for one am very grateful.

[cuddlyfemme]

Remember, only do what is comfortable for you. There is nothing wrong with being Stone in any relationship, if that is who you are. Being true to yourself will result in you finding the right partner match.

You're so right...one has to be true to themself before anything. Thanks for the reminder. I'm very proud of being Stone

[imperfect_cupcake]

Okay heres some questions I would like to throw out there and hear some feed back.

If a woman is in a relationship with a stone butch , is she now a stone femme?
Does that change an identity if the person you are with is stone? or would you simply identify as femme?
If you would be changing your style of sex out of respect for the person you were with or is it a lifestyle you would continue to pursue even in a different relationship? also would a woman who identifies as a stone femme whether in a relationship or not only look to date a stone butch?

I know for me, being Stone isnt an issue if it was a casual thing but what about a different senerio, you fall in love with a person who wasnt stone before, or maybe you fall in love with a stone butch and you arent....would you always feel like something was missing? Would you miss making love to a woman? I always wondered if my partner was feeling restricted from something she may desire to do with me or to me , just like I do her.


My first female long term partner was stone. I've seen many stone butches, casually and seriously.

I've never ID'd as a stonefemme (though I have had long periods of being stone - boundried about where people can touch me - myself). I've never felt there was something missing unless there *was* something missing in our relationship, not sex. If it was with the right person, if my wife suddenly decided she was stone, then I would not have much of problem with it. I'm pretty damn flexible. I enjoy giving anal sex, a lot, but I know some people can't. I don't feel like a part of me has been lopped off if I can't. Just the way some things go. And I'm well versed, so I'm not fussed.

My ID does not depend on my partner. full stop.


stone butches...
Has being stone been greeted with the wide eye " your Kiddings" like I described in a previous post in this thread?

Do you tell people you are stone, I mean in the general community, not Butch-femme? is it something personal you only share with your partner?...
Honestly I dont just put that out there. It isnt a common knowlege thing among my Friends, except here, online. I only cross that bridge if I come to it I guess.



I know isn't addressed to me, but, too bad!

I know there are plenty of places in the states and in canada it's acceptable to state your ID as stone butch. in the generder queer scene in london.... em... no. Butch is fine when mentioned in passing, no one gives a fuck, so woulod find it slightly odd for someone to do it adamantly/proudly. Sort of like shouting "I'm here, I'm queer" in a club where everyone has been out for 900 billion years and has the right to get married. State one is stone? not. that's sort of like telling your dinner guests how you like to masturbate. No one really wants to know your preferences in the sack. or how many toilet squares it takes to wipe your ass, while having a beer with you. It's kinda considered TMI. it's kinda a conversation you have with someone you intend to have sex with and close friends if you talk about sex with your close friends, not your casual mates.

the community clubs I hang in understands butch-femme, butch-butch, femme-femme, trans-butch, trans-femme, trans-wotever, bi, and all variations of generqueer. No one blabs about it too much, it's kind of a given. Though the term pillow princess/prince gets bandied about a bit, but not in a nasty way. and many people are more than happy to put their hand up and own that term.

[adorable]

I actually came to these sites to FIND my ID because I believed there was one. I found there was none and yet I am stone. I am stone not for the reasons that some may think...for me it has everything to do with what OTHERS think of my sexuality and not at all based on what my sexuality is in reality. I am NOT like you. I am me. He is He. Together we are. Who understands what I have come to understand doesn't mean a damn thing. I get it.

Stone is one way to quickly describe for me a dynamic that can also be described for me as D/g. Do we fuck that way? Sometimes. Do we love that way? Always. Will most people ever understand it? NO. Do I care? Not anymore.

[friskyfemme]

I do appreciate what y'all are saying. I have experienced many different sexual and personal relationships. I guess I had to come to my own based on what did/didn't work for me. I guess that because we all grow into ourself thru life experiences, no one definition is ever going to solely describe who we are compared to someone else. The best we can hope for is to love each other for the unique individual we are. By saying I am femme, I am relating that I am female id. I am stone femme which means I seek butches and transguys that are male id and don't want me to pleasure them in the same way they do me. This dynamic allows a melding of 2 energies (male/female) in balance (for me) 'the Dance'. This is not just a sexual preference but a lifestyle choice for me and my partner. This is who I am and doesn't define anyone else.

[DapperButch]

I actually came to these sites to FIND my ID because I believed there was one. I found there was none and yet I am stone. I am stone not for the reasons that some may think...for me it has everything to do with what OTHERS think of my sexuality and not at all based on what my sexuality is in reality. I am NOT like you. I am me. He is He. Together we are. Who understands what I have come to understand doesn't mean a damn thing. I get it.

Stone is one way to quickly describe for me a dynamic that can also be described for me as D/g. Do we fuck that way? Sometimes. Do we love that way? Always. Will most people ever understand it? NO. Do I care? Not anymore.

Interesting. Ok, so if I am understanding you correctly, you define your relationship as stone b/c it is a D/g relationship?

Meaning definition of stone for you = D/g ?

[Sweet_Amor_Taino]

I have a male / gentleman mentality. I do not like to be touched in a way a women is touched. It puts me a Lesbian head space... it is a bad place for me to be at !! I do not like to be feminized. !!

I believe that at some time or another a butch or femme has found her/him self doing certain sexual behaviors to please their partner but that is why a straight out conversation no matter how uncomfortable is needed ASAP.

[DCStone]

For myself, it lets others know upfront not only how I have sex but with whom I have sex.

I've always been Stone. I just didn't always have the vocabulary and knowledge to understand it.

I have to agree with Gemme. I think her definition is short and to the point. Although, I am coming from the Stone Butch perspective. I really appreciate so many people sharing their thoughts and stories.

[Jess]

a more welcoming stone thread I had not read previously. Thanks Miss JoLynn for creating one with such grace. (f)

now, I get to go back and read it all.. lol

[UofMfan]

I am curious about those who ID as *Stone* and what that specific WORD means to them on a personal and relationship level.

Is it sexual boundaries or gender ID or a combination of the two or something one cannot explain that makes one ID as *Stone*?

It may be too personal to explain--perfectly understandable (of course!). I am just wondering how all those who ID as Stone (femmes and butches) came to that ID and what that ID means to them...if they want to share of course!

If there is another thread on personal definitions of *Stone*, someone tell me quickly!

--No judgement--I am honestly curious as to what *STONE* means for people on this site.






Thanks Jess for bumping this friendlier thread.

[BullDog]

Thank you for this wonderful, inclusive Stone thread. There are so many awesome posts here. I did post earlier in the thread, so not much to add at this time but thank you again to everyone.

[Hollylane]

I haven't seen this thread in a awhile, but reading through some of the posts here, made me proud to be a member of this site. There really are some great folks here, who are genuinely interested in open discussion, and allowing others to freely be themselves without judgement or an attempt to cram others into a preformed ID box that is not of their own personal design. I am subscribing.

[CherylNYC]

Count me in. Just another refugee from that crazy 'House'.

[rustedrims]

Ok i get the Stone thing for Butches and Femmes..I never thought of myself as Stone but after reading i can find a place there..I do like to be the agressor in the bedroom or Top..After doing what i do in the heat of passion i do need a little touch to take the edge off things..Give me 6 seconds then my attention goes back to my partner..I dont want to get to personal with my info..There are also places i prefer not to be touched,rubbed,grabbed or whatever..Guess that is the Stone part..

I do have a question..
I here Pillow Princess being mentioned a few times..My "X" was described as being that..When it was time for the bedroom activites she would lay naked on her back in bed with her arms over her head and legs wide open..{sorry to detailed?}..Wow!!..I loved that and killer body to go with it..She would keep her arms raised during sex and never heald on to me or any kind of interaction..She responded very well but no tender touches or nothing..
My question is :: Is that the definition of a "Pillow Princess"..???..
wondering..??..

[SweetJane]

I do have a question..
I here Pillow Princess being mentioned a few times..My "X" was described as being that..When it was time for the bedroom activites she would lay naked on her back in bed with her arms over her head and legs wide open..{sorry to detailed?}..Wow!!..I loved that and killer body to go with it..She would keep her arms raised during sex and never heald on to me or any kind of interaction..She responded very well but no tender touches or nothing..
My question is :: Is that the definition of a "Pillow Princess"..???..
wondering..??..

I may be wrong, but I think in many cases, your definition of a pillow princess is accurate. It is a legitimate ID and shouldn't have any negative connotations.

It is, however, not how a stone femme behaves--or personally how I behave. While I respect a stone butches boundaries, I also have my own and choose not to touch where they don't wish to touch. However, there is a world of response, touch, and affection that I can give within those mutual boundaries.

People don't understand the stone dynamic. I have been asked if I were a Princess when someone finds out I'm stone. Not the same thing at all.

[rustedrims]

I may be wrong, but I think in many cases, your definition of a pillow princess is accurate. It is a legitimate ID and shouldn't have any negative connotations.

It is, however, not how a stone femme behaves--or personally how I behave. While I respect a stone butches boundaries, I also have my own and choose not to touch where they don't wish to touch. However, there is a world of response, touch, and affection that I can give within those mutual boundaries.

People don't understand the stone dynamic. I have been asked if I were a Princess when someone finds out I'm stone. Not the same thing at all.

So a "Pillow Princess just lays there with out touching her partner affectionately..Is that right.??.

Can one be a Stone Princess..???..

[DapperButch]

I do have a question..
I here Pillow Princess being mentioned a few times..My "X" was described as being that..When it was time for the bedroom activites she would lay naked on her back in bed with her arms over her head and legs wide open..{sorry to detailed?}..Wow!!..I loved that and killer body to go with it..She would keep her arms raised during sex and never heald on to me or any kind of interaction..She responded very well but no tender touches or nothing..
My question is :: Is that the definition of a "Pillow Princess"..???..
wondering..??..

I don't think this would describe a pillow princess.

It sounds more like a woman who has a suffered some sexual trauma in the past. I of course have no idea if this is accurate, but I must admit that this was my visceral response to reading this (and subsequently, feeling badly for her, if this is indeed the case).

[~ocean]

pillow princess>> waste of femmine energy >> empty w/out passion.

[Gemme]

I've heard the term used to describe someone who takes but doesn't give, so in that simplistic definition, your ex could fit into that category, rusted.

HOWEVER

There is never one set definition of anything when it comes to how we identify. We are far too complex to reduce our experiences, lives and love into a few sentences.

[Random]

pillow princess>> waste of femmine energy >> empty w/out passion.

Could you elaborate on what you are saying here?

Are you stating that the term pillow princess means waste of femmine energy and empty w/out passion?

or are you giving stating that this is the negitive image of what people think of when they hear pillow princess?


I'm asking for clarification, because I don't want to misunderstand what I'm reading...

[~ocean]

no misunderstanding at all.. i could care less what others think ..its what i think i go by.

[Random]

no misunderstanding at all.. i could care less what others think ..its what i think i go by.


Ok.. so you are saying that you think someone who is a pillow princess is a waste of femmine energy >> empty w/out passion.

So is a Top femme who only gives and doesn't receive the same thing?

Speaking as someone who has been both in her life, I have to say that you are wrong on both counts... nothing wasted and in no way passionless...


How sad to be so judgemental and selfish...

Apparently you have never inspired passion in someone who only receives if your experience leads you to this conclusion..

I've been more fortunate and my experience lead me to the conclusion that it's hot as hell for someone to give me the pleasure of pleasing them and vise versa...

[Medusa]

pillow princess>> waste of femmine energy >> empty w/out passion.

~ocean-

The post above feels super judgmental and goes against the part of our TOS about Intolerance where we ask people not to shame others about who they are.

Everyone on this site gets to individually decide how they like to fuck, who they want to fuck, and why they want to fuck. That means that every single person here is PERFECT exactly the way they are and if that means they want to lay on a pillow and get their moan on until the cows come home, it's OK!

It does NOT make people less passionate, less Feminine, or less of ANYTHING simply by fucking differently than you do. It just makes their style of fucking different. Period on that sentence.

I want everyone here to be super careful about imposing their idea of what is ok in bed on other people.

This is where we repeat my favorite mantra: "Other people's orgasms are none of your business."

Thanks,
Medusa
(lover of pillows, being on top, being on bottom, sideways, hanging from the ceiling, doing in in my socks, doing it in a box, and sundry other ways of fucking)

[~ocean]

im sry for offending .. i;m not referring to a top femme at all.. .. i'll refrain my opinons :) sry again..

[barnes]

ok for me stone means i dont want to be touched in a feminine way on my chest nor seen as thou i have em !
i dont want to be penetrated vag wise ! i could barely type the word even lol ! oh or in the ass too had to toss that in lol !
stone femme to me means a femme that likes stone butches as she doesnt like to eat pussy ! so they fit . but she likes to be penetrated and such and loves her boobs to be boobs unless they just hurt her back ! i personally dance the stone /transgender line most importantly to me im ruff very ruff so id as a hard core butch ! i love that word butch its meaning is diverse ! i like takin the time to get to know folks and they let me know what it means to them ! it is such an odd ice breakin convo i truly must admit ! i love lables in the old days we were just lesbians and that was way too broad ! we need a concenses and a dictionary lol now who will be the aurthor dont all raise u hand at once lol !
and as for emotions id never heard that stone meant cold so to speak ! i cry too much myself lol ! ima giver emotionally financially spiritually and physically and sexually ! i always thought a pillow princess was a high femme that likes to keep her hair and makeup nice at night lol ! using silk pillowcases as to not mess her hair as tangled lol ! idk lol! and thank god we arent all the same its the diversity that makes us all the more interesting !

[rustedrims]

I didnt mean my question about a "Pillow Princess" to get "heated"..
I just wanted to understand the term..It is i believe taking and not giving..Always thought that because that is the way she was with me..I could go on but i will stop there..
Thanks for all the comments..I did learn something..

[StoneOne]

and tagging for later read
Thanks for sharing

[shiagirl]

and tagging for later read
Thanks for sharing

Following Stone and tagging too for later reading.

[pynkkameleon]

*bumping* this thread so that it doesn't get covered with cobwebs and missed by anyone who might benefit from reading and/or participating within this topic. I think it has a lot of value and importance.

I know that I certainly have learned a lot.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I didnt mean my question about a "Pillow Princess" to get "heated"..
I just wanted to understand the term..It is i believe taking and not giving..Always thought that because that is the way she was with me..I could go on but i will stop there..
Thanks for all the comments..I did learn something..

actually, for me, no. I'm not stonefemme but I can be an utter pillow princess at times: I love getting "done" and give by gripping, being loud, squirting, panting, adoring, losing myself in it, etc... but I do also give back by enacting sexually on others (sucking, fisting, mouth on flesh "blowjobs" etc) in the ways they require so I can't call myself stonefemme. But I am a serious pillowqueen/bottom for a good chunk of my bedroom life (I do switch it up happily when asked, but happy to respect boundaries too). I'm proud to be one and love it. And never had a single complaint.

those of us who like to "be on our backs" but aren't strictly stone... it's a useful term. or at least I find it to be so. ;)

[Dance-with-me]

*bumping* this thread so that it doesn't get covered with cobwebs and missed by anyone who might benefit from reading and/or participating within this topic. I think it has a lot of value and importance.

I know that I certainly have learned a lot.
Thank you for bumping this! It's exactly what I presumed was here somewhere but hadn't yet looked for and found.

To be honest, I was always unsure of what people meant when they said "stone butch" and even more confused by "stone femme." But I find myself relating to the different descriptions very well.

Part of who I am as a femme is that I respond very strongly to a very masculine sexual energy -- just not in a biological man's body.

Part of my journey as a femme was coming to terms that when I'm sexual with someone, I'm sexual with that person's masculinity -- even if that person is herself not thinking of her body or sexuality as masculine (though I honestly prefer if he does). And I want my lovers to deeply desire that feminine counterpart from me. It has nothing to do with my lover's gender identity: I've had 100% woman-identified lovers who still had a very masculine sexuality. For example, a certain body part might be her clitoris 98% of the time to her, but when she's in bed, she thinks of it completely as her cock, and not just as a term she used as a turn-on in bed, but because that's where her head is. ::ahem::

Am I making any sense?

And to have someone talk about what I'm doing in a feminine/female way is a real turnoff to me. I do not "eat pussy" and to ask me to do so would stop me col - but I have sucked butch cock. I do not ever "fuck" someone else - but I have given some internal pressure that he enjoyed. I do not enjoy being fucked by a dildo - but I do enjoy that same action from another version of butch cock. I do not fondle breasts - but nipple stimulation is enjoyed very much by both men and women. it's not just language: It's MY head space that I need to be in, and the head space I prefer my lover to be in.

There are few boundaries that I have solely because a certain action or body part is (to me) feminizing, as long as it's something that still allows me to maintain a feminine sexual energy that's balancing with a masculine energy. But I also have zero problems respecting my lover's boundaries - but to me that has nothing at all to do with stone or not stone, to me that's what everyone should do for any lover. Some people just don't LIKE certain things, to the point of it being a real turn-off to even imply that they might occur, period. And if I can't respect my lover's boundaries, then I have no business being sexual with that person. So for me, a butch having boundaries or desires that are based on his needs and his body, including needing me to never do certain things that are feminizing to him, even if that means never touching him directly sexually, is NEVER a problem.

Sorry to ramble. I guess what I'm saying is, I realize now (like, past hour "now") that I could be considered a stone femme, using the definition that pertains to relating to my lover only in terms of masculine sexual energy.

[Bit]

Am I making any sense?

Indeed! You make perfectly good sense to me.

[~ocean]

Am I making any sense?

I feel alot as u do. I consider myself a stonefemme , we r very similar, I also have a very strong submissive side as well. ^ 5 dance well put.

[bright_arrow]

Okay heres some questions I would like to throw out there and hear some feed back.

If a woman is in a relationship with a stone butch , is she now a stone femme?

I am partnered with a stone butch, but it does not change my identity and never has.

Does that change an identity if the person you are with is stone? or would you simply identify as femme?

I have identified as femme since I found the term, even when my partner was stone butch, transgendered, or just a non-identified woman loving woman (does that make sense?).

If you would be changing your style of sex out of respect for the person you were with or is it a lifestyle you would continue to pursue even in a different relationship? also would a woman who identifies as a stone femme whether in a relationship or not only look to date a stone butch?

It is in my nature to touch and be touched, just as it is some's nature to touch and not be touched, or not be touched and touch. However, I look at it more as a "This is what I do not like." as opposed to "This is what you can't ever do." Same thing, yes, but it is easier to wrap my head around. That way I see it just as a preference, and do not take it personally, even though in my mind it is not personal, my heart sometimes takes it personally to the extreme. Does that make sense? I have cried myself to sleep before thinking I was doing something wrong and therefore being punished by not being allowed to touch at all. It just makes me feel down on myself when I think of it like "I can not do this to my partner because they do not want me to." vs. "My partner just prefers not to be touched this way, but they do like it this way."

I know for me, being Stone isnt an issue if it was a casual thing but what about a different senerio, you fall in love with a person who wasnt stone before, or maybe you fall in love with a stone butch and you arent....would you always feel like something was missing? Would you miss making love to a woman? I always wondered if my partner was feeling restricted from something she may desire to do with me or to me , just like I do her.

I won't lie, yes sometimes I feel a void. Coming out, it was always reciprocating sex with my girlfriends, there was no boundaries when it came to our bodies. When I became aware of the butch/femme community, I was partnered with a butch lesbian who identified as stone, but sometimes she would get really out of it (i.e. she was addicted to pain pills) and suddenly that went out the window. Imagine my surprise the next night when she flipped out on my attempts at initiating sex. I quickly became confused as to what was allowed, when it was allowed.. :seeingstars: Not trying to come across negatively, just trying to explain my confusion as a newly outed lesbian.

My responses are above in purple.

[pynkkameleon]

Am I making any sense?

I think that you are making perfect sense. No rambling whatsoever. I too can relate to much of what you've said. Gotta love those "aha" moments. I know that I sure do :)

[sierragirrl]

I wanted to thank everyone who took the time to post in this thread.
I have enjoyed it and learned a few things.
Thanks again (f)

[Heavenleahangel]

I have been reading through the previous posts and find that everyone has their own opinion (as it should be) as to what "stone" represents or "pillow princess" for that matter.
I personally, do not like labels to define or describe who I am. When I hear "stone" anything I have an understanding that person doesn't want to be "touched" in a feminizing or sexual manor. When I hear "pillow princess" I understand someone who doesn't actively participate in sexual activities. As far as "top", "bottom", "sideways" or any other adjective, I don't get into those, either. Whether it's inexperience on my part, or naivety, I'm not sure.
What I do consider to be important is when I am contemplating dating or partnering with someone, I take it upon myself to have "the talk" if my potential partner hasn't already. I take the time to get to know (point blank even) what that person expects and to explain what my expectations are. As we all know, "the dance" and all aspects of it can and should be deal breakers if both parties don't "match up". Its a clear issue of respect, and RESPECT is the most important thing in ANY relationship. Maybe I am the one who is outdated and maybe my way of thinking is why I am still single. But I don't need a label to define me.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I don't need a "label" iether, 99% of the time I don't need to use the term femme either. But words are handy to communicate. I see you use the OFOS "label" and "femme" so you must understand some value to the descriptors. I'm not OFOS so to me personally it's a useless label and don't understand the point in defining that way - because I personally don't need to use it when communicating with someone about preferences.

However, I have particular preferences in the bedroom, therefore I do need words to describe those preferences.

I used have this argument with one of my exes who does not ID as anything. Just dyke. I personally see her as a butch. And probably one of the most old fashioned I've ever been with. She doesn't like "labels" but she uses them all the time: step mom, sister, woman and dyke. All labels. It's just labels that mean something to her. She used to take the piss out of me for using femme (good naturedly). I finally told her that it's all well and good when it's easy to say "I'm attracted to girly girls" and just go with that, but when your attractions aren't common and the way you express yourself sexually is not 'normative' (You don't care what kind of sex you have, it's all good to you and you don't have fetishes or have strong preferences) then you need words to be able to describe them. It's very hard to order a chocolate milkshake if you can't use the words chocolate or milkshake. Whereas if you don't care what you get you can walk up to a counter and say 'food please' and it all works for you."

She said "oh. good point."
Because I have a different definition of butch than lots of people... for me butch is just someone who has a preference for boys or masculine clothes and has a cock even just some of the time. And that's it. nothing else. If I'm talking about those I find most attractive, they are cheeky, don't take life too seriously, dress casual-dapper mostly. lots of tats. smudgy black eyeliner and like to try new things. And a kinky fucker. but that's just personal. Notice the words "cheeky" (personality trait label), casual-dapper (dress sense label) and Kinky (sexual genera label).
I prefer certain sexual dynamics and rough sex. I have words that would describe that short hand. these are useful as a launch point to start conversations when they are in context with others, but I don't walk around saying "I'm a sadistic switchy submissive fuck doll" as an introduction. I very even rarely use the word "femme". But on line we can't interact the way we do in person and looking for others on line... it's usually where people whip out the short hand. That's why you'll see it so much in a forum for people who fall under those categories. outside this arena, I almost never use those terms. I talk about what movie I watched last and what grades I got on my finals and swapping stories and having a laugh.

the online stuff doesn't really reflect my in the flesh life. :)

[Blaze]

Bumping this thread, I need to come back and put my two cent's later. This is very interesting and needs to be bumped now and again....

[Jhenay]

Stone Femme, and not a pillow princess. ;)

MUAH !

[Nat]

I thought I was stone for a while in that I had issues penetrating another person. I found it upsetting and it turned me off. In my case, though, it was a stopping place on my own journey, rather than the final port of call.

I eventually figured out I was deeply afraid of violating another person, that when I went there, it bothered me because of this fear - to the point where I was dissociating a bit. On top of that, I was just new and I hate being bad at stuff. :)

Over time and in increments, what part of me I considered stone went away. I am still extremely concerned with knowing boundaries and with trusting my lover to have a strong "no" should she ever need to use it, because I don't want to find out after the fact that something I have done made another person feel violated. It's still a really deep fear. Having confidence and trust in this respect has just really allowed me to be in my own skin and just be able to enjoy (relish) those experiences which I was most reticent about before. Plus, it helps when you're with somebody just really amazing. :)

Even though I'm not stone anymore, I am really grateful to those stone femmes who were there for me back then. Without several wise stone femme voices, I may have mistakenly felt during that time that maybe I wasn't queer after all or queer enough. I was very recently out of a straight marriage at that time, and I was so unsteady on my feet. The voices and presence of stone people within the community really made me feel like there was a home for me here whether or not I had the capacity or desire to perform to the standards and reciprocity levels that I may have otherwise felt were expected of me.

Heh. I was thinking of posting here but eventually it looked familiar to me and so I searched and found myself. Much of what I said above remains the same now.

I've run into enough variations with butches who call themselves stone and those who do not that I mainly take that word to mean I need more info before proceeding in certain directions, while erring on the side of caution. I think I tend to do this with most butches unless I get like a hundred percent have-at green light.

I'm really glad people know their boundaries because what really sucks is when people don't know their boundaries til they've been crossed. I guess to me stone equates to boundaries more than identity or whom I would date or whom that person would date. I'm not stone, but I certainly wouldn't kick a stone butch out of bed. Or a stone femme either for that matter.

Chemistry is magical - to me the boundaries, the different dynamics between two people - it's just all part of that same magic - something largely unique to me and that other person. What acts are performed or how or what parts are treated what ways etc - all of that is part of the natural flow and the magic, the play of darkness and light, the energy exchange when the chemistry's right. To me the chemistry is the main deal, and everything else can be worked with or around - and trust is part - the biggest part - of that.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I can really relate to that. the first three female lovers I had were stone. and I did not want to penetrate anyone. I was very slowly introduced to it by my fourth whom made me understand it wasn't feminising. once I understood that, that the inside of a butch felt...well... *butch* I was good to go.

I didn't ID as stonefemme then as it never really came up as an ID up for discussion. I didn't start seeing it until later. I saw it as just a factual boundary. Not really an ID, at the time. Sort of like, if someone isn't into anal sex. or nipple clamps.

Since then it hasn't really been a big deal if someone is stone or not in terms of penetration. But I do need someone who's willing to let me feel their flesh cock swell in my mouth. cause I can't not ever not have that again. But as for being penetrated... if they don't want it... ok. plenty of other things to do for them.

But since I am happy to penetrate those who want it, I can't call myself a stonefemme. And since 80% submissive and bottom... I go for the label of fuckdolly or pillowqueen.

so. Chemistry IS the big deal. completely. I've had a huge learning curve about the difference between a dominant and a top. And it makes a heap of sense now.

[Blaze]

You know, this one is going to be difficult for me to express, only because so many of you have touched bases on what I wanted to say. But let me give it a try anyway... Perhaps, in a different view.
I recall my childhood years as always wishing I was a boy, I grew up with 97% male entities around me, though I worshiped my Mother. So basically everything about me was male identified. Except when my Mother put the dresses on and shooed me off to school. But I quickly figured out how to out smart her, (or so I thought) by putting on shorts under the dress and as I was shooed out the door I would pull off the dress and put on my t-shirt and toss the dress into the bushes knowing that I had to run home quickly so I could put the dress on as if I had been wearing it all day. (Mom stopped forcing me to wear them when she found them in the bushes daily is what she admitted to me much later in life) <~What a Woman!


In my teens/young twenties. I was just one of the boys, sports, cars, surfing, checking out woman. And I also remember my Mother taking me to Sears and allowing me to shop in the men's department, even allowing me to wear boxers because I would steal my brothers new ones that she bought them, so she just let me pick my own because theirs were to big for me anyway. Flash forward to my first relationship, She respected my masculinity and allowed me to be the aggressor and become the male identified person that I was. So I guess you could say I was lucky to have a woman that was Stone Femme and we both appreciated each others company and space. Now my next relationship was short lived, as I tried for weeks to explain to her that she didn't do anything wrong, I wasn't punishing her and that I did adore her, but didn't want to be touched in the places she so wanted to touch me on. I think it was Des'd that expressed that familiar experience. I felt just as bad, and even questioned if I was doing this correctly, or if I was being selfish, mean, or fridge d. So that ended as quickly as it started.


I pretty much took a break from relationships and just concentrated on life in general. Hanging with the older Butch gendered that took the time to teach me the old school ethics and expectations to which I grew very fond of, and I cherish the time and labor they put into making it easier for the rest of us to just walk into too. Teaching me that It was okay to question, but I had the right to state my expectations as well, So became the entitlement of calling myself a Stone Butch, and being relaxed to state that this was my preferences, this is what I wanted, and this is who I am. Now at the present, I am a true believer in knowing that what ever makes you (the person you are comfortable as) is who you need to be true too. I am very comfortable in my own skin, I look male most of the time, the few that actually look deeper and identify me as female, empowerment to them, they took the time to notice, and I don't get all bent out of shape because the pegged me, lol.


So yes, I'm top, yes I am masculine identified, yes I am a woman, yes I still have menopausal heat flashes that are pesky. And yes. I am proud of being a Butch, and labeled Transgendered identified, and Stone. Everyone has brought very vital and interesting points to the thread and I wish I could touch on every one of them, but y'all did the definition justice and make it much easier for others who are trying to figure out who they are, or where they belong. Bravo to all of you for the honesty and dedications!


I'm just happy to be who I am, and don't intend to be what everyone else wants me to be. Life is meant to be lived, and you have to make it comfortable to live in. Be YOU!

Perhaps I danced around the subject, but then again, everyone else said what I wanted to, but better than I. So thank you.

[DapperButch]

Great, great post Blaze! Glad you took the time to write it!

[Cin]

I have tossed around the definition of stone butch for myself. Ultimately I decided it didn’t exactly fit and might be a bit of false advertising. Although truthfully it seems that in my life not identifying as stone has caused more problems. If you don’t say you are stone the expectation is that you are open with your body, at least to some degree. In my opinion I am to a degree, but that is subjective and others have disagreed. I guess I would say I’m 85/15 stone.

But I would hesitate to take the definition of stone because I don’t seem to fit some of the criteria that might be an expectation should I claim the identity. For example I don’t cum getting someone else off. I enjoy it immensely but that is all. For me not being touched is to a degree about not caring to surrender and it is also about not enjoying the focus on my body. But I still can’t get off focusing on hers and sometimes I need a release. I do identify with not taking my clothes off easily. I need to trust before that can happen. I'm not sure what that is about except control. Another piece that is missing for me that I hear many stone butches talking about is butch cock. I don’t have a butch cock which is probably why it doesn’t get off fucking someone. I very much enjoy strapping on and fucking my femme’s brains out, but I am not capable of viewing it as an extension of my body and I don’t cum doing it. Interestingly enough I can easily cum if I leave off the dildo and just fuck cunt to cunt but it doesn't work to call it my cock. Another aspect of being stone for some butches seems to be getting head on their butch cock. I don’t have a butch cock so I can’t feel it that way but beyond that I don’t care for receiving oral sex. I can live with it, but I find it a rather focused process that makes me a tad uncomfortable. It requires more attention to my clit than I am able/willing to live with a good percentage of the time. However I rather enjoy being penetrated every now and again. That 15% is mostly about that. I have no problem with penetration in any form. I’m just more interested in pleasing than I am in being pleased. More interested, but not dead to the idea of getting some for myself once in awhile.

So stone was never something I felt comfortable taking as an identity. But I have always been open and willing to engage in conversation about what I need and what I am capable of bringing sexually to a relationship. I am also willing to hear what my partner needs and is capable of bringing as well. I’m lucky to have found someone I am compatible with but we are both willing to make some compromises some times. That’s important I think. Being able to be comfortable making a compromise for your partner without the personal cost being too high. There are some things that it is impossible for me to compromise on, some stuff is just a no go, but I am always willing to consider stretching and extending my limits. Getting outside my comfort zone is pretty rewarding. I guess that is also why I feel I can’t take the identity of stone. However, not saying hey I’m stone has caused me some problems with expectations and I’ve been a source of disappointment to a few femmes in my life, but thankfully that’s over.

I’m just posting this here in case there are others like me who feel they might be stone but don’t feel they exactly fit the definition and hesitate to disappoint or confuse by claiming it. You’re not alone. It’s a challenge as how to identify. Fortunately we have our words and an open honest dialogue with a potential partner goes a long way.

[Dreamer]

The one thing I truly love about the butch/femme dynamic is that there are no clear boundaries on what is what, what matters is what you feel inside and how you see yourself. People who identify as stone may all have a different no go area or something they feel defines them and allows them to identify that way. Ultimately it is what you feel. If you believe that you are stone then don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I do not meet all the expectations of what people believe stone is either but I can say that yes I am Stone, and if you ask Julie I am sure she would agree with me. So be true to yourself and your partners and be who you are.

[bright_arrow]

Bumping because I have found this thread informative.

[Blade]

Bumping because the last of this conversation was almost 5 yrs ago. A lot of new people are here. What's your story?