So what does being Bisexual, mean to you ?

[MsMerrick]

Note, first of all.. This is a question for people who have identified as Bisexual, currently id as such, and or those that think they may be, but aren't sure.
My question, really has more to do with..
Does it mean you are attracted to both males & females.. and if co, sexually, emotionally, a bit of both, just one.. or ..neither or..something else altogether?
I have always thought of myself as bisexual and , in what I call..strict Kinesyian definition, I am. I have enjoyed sex with and been attracted to, both males & females.. On the other hand, I am a tad mature.lol and at this stage of the game, aka life.. I am rarely attracted to anyone.. :)
Also, several years ago, talking to a Butch friend, s/he was talking about having enjoyed sex with men, in hir younger days.. but finding that emotionally, who she went to, for comfort, to talk about a triumph, etc etc, were her female lovers, not her male ones.. a light bulb went off in my head, and I though ohmigawd, maybe I really am a Lesbian !
And yet.. .. I really don't know, if someone were to put a metaphysical gun to my head and say Ok, WHICH IS IT ...
A couple people were defining themselves as bisexual, and others talking about defining as bisexual, early on..then that changing ...
I hope I don't have to say this too often but
If you define bisexual as a disease ridden whore.. You might want to not post in this thread, though reading it, might be a n education ..
At least I hope it will

I guess part of what I am getting at..is it all about sex?
Seriously ..
Or is there something else, and if so, is that always divided as equally or randomly, as it were..
Is it about who we go to ? Who we date, who we are attracted to ?
Anybody want to go next ?
:canoworms:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I think it means you are fluid about your sex...

[MsMerrick]

I think it means you are fluid about your sex...

Could you add a bit more ?
Do you mean.. fluid about your sex as in your gender.. ?
or fluid about , who you have sex with ?
or..something else that I missed entirely ( which happens way too much but it does :) )

[Andrew, Jr.]

30 some years ago I dated a femme who was bi. She explained to me that she was oriented to both genders, male and female. It was more about personality, and gender in finding a mate. She just couldn't settle on one or another. It was unsettling for me.

She dated both bio-males, and ftm's along with femmes. Then she ended up with a woman, and has had children with this woman. They are were once happy.

When I saw her last, she was in a crisis. She felt the need/desire to be with a man (physically). It wasn't about wearing a strap, or being fucked by one. It was something in her soul. She crossed genders and barriers. I am very proud of her.

I really haven't seen her in a couple of years now. I am not sure of how she resolved her situation. Plus the children who are now in the situation.

Andrew

[Ms.Lizzy]

I hate to put a label on myself but I use to say I was Bi.I was always curious about other girls growing up but also attracted to men.I got married and had two children but was never truly happy.Eventually we divorced and I met someone who identified as a butch lesbian.After dating for three years she decided that she/he was actually transgender.I was fine with this and tried to be supportive as I could but was always screwing up w-the pro-nouns.Eventually she began an emotional affair online that crossed over into realtime.This woman really fed into her/his trans identity as it was the only way she knew her/him.I actually found out about the affair and left the relationship and began to date a man.I quickly realized biological men can just be gross.There were so many things about being with someone who was raised as a female. So whether its a butch or ftm I prefer them over bio men.I got back together w-her/him only to continously catch this person lying.Now I am taking time for me and when I meet the right person it wont matter their sex as much as their integrity.

[Random]

When I first became sexual, I identified as bisexual..

I was attracted to a small percentage of women, and they scared the HELL out of me.. They generally were in the military, had short hair, and wore guys clothes.. They made my palms sweat and made me nervous and self aware in a way that I had never been before... I was actually aware of my skin, body...

I had absolutly no idea what to do with them.. I couldn't talk to them, look them in the eye... But I was aware...

Guys, I knew what to do with... From my first experience, I knew how to drive them insane... Knew my power and used it... I had no problem playing with them, talking to them, teasing them... I did have a problem connecting emotionally with them... It was about sex and power... There was tenderness, but that was not the norm..

So I called myself bisexual... Because of this awareness for a certain type of woman.. (I had no word/lable/knowledge of anything. My *gay* world was the world of the gay man...) I knew I couldn't be straight.

Fast forward 15 yrs later... A failed marriage, a couple flirtations, and I came out to myself... Gay.. Queer...

It's funny... A couple years ago, I felt bisexual again... Lol.. My partner was Gender Fluid with GID and straight... Most of the time it felt like I was in a hetrosexual relationship..

[AtLast]

Note, first of all.. This is a question for people who have identified as Bisexual, currently id as such, and or those that think they may be, but aren't sure.
My question, really has more to do with..
Does it mean you are attracted to both males & females.. and if co, sexually, emotionally, a bit of both, just one.. or ..neither or..something else altogether?
I have always thought of myself as bisexual and , in what I call..strict Kinesyian definition, I am. I have enjoyed sex with and been attracted to, both males & females.. On the other hand, I am a tad mature.lol and at this stage of the game, aka life.. I am rarely attracted to anyone.. :)
Also, several years ago, talking to a Butch friend, s/he was talking about having enjoyed sex with men, in hir younger days.. but finding that emotionally, who she went to, for comfort, to talk about a triumph, etc etc, were her female lovers, not her male ones.. a light bulb went off in my head, and I though ohmigawd, maybe I really am a Lesbian !
And yet.. .. I really don't know, if someone were to put a metaphysical gun to my head and say Ok, WHICH IS IT ...
A couple people were defining themselves as bisexual, and others talking about defining as bisexual, early on..then that changing ...
I hope I don't have to say this too often but
If you define bisexual as a disease ridden whore.. You might want to not post in this thread, though reading it, might be a n education ..
At least I hope it will

I guess part of what I am getting at..is it all about sex?
Seriously ..
Or is there something else, and if so, is that always divided as equally or randomly, as it were..
Is it about who we go to ? Who we date, who we are attracted to ?
Anybody want to go next ?
:canoworms:


No, it isn't all about sex... wasn't and isn't for me, anyway. Even in the throws of raging hormones back in the day.

I did go through "that transitional” period of being bi when I was really lesbian many years ago as a young adult (early 20's- I know, I was actually slow!). It was really about denial and fear at that time.

I was heterosexual prior to this and continued to be sexual and loved men until nearly 30. Then, it was the combination of the physical and emotional energy that was most satisfying with women for me ht took hold. It remains that way, however, I have never felt negative about my relationships with men. Sex was good with them, too. Probably because I had good relationships with them outside of the sexual as well just as I have with women. And while I was bi, I was poly. This changed when I was with a particular woman and reached a developmental stage in which monogamy and commitment merged in a positive way for me (No, I don‘t hold that commitment is only within monogamous relationships). Been that way ever since.

To me, bisexuality is just one mode on the continuum of sexuality. I have even had a period in my life that I felt asexual - and it felt right. LOL, I guess I don't have a great need to badger myself about where I am sexually and never have since I became sexually active with others, or outside of myself (we come to sexual experience long before sharing it with someone else- pun intended ! Unless, unfort6unately, we are abused). As I look back (as well as today), I have just never been alarmed about any stage/mode of sexuality I have gone through.

I do know that I am at the core, lesbian and simply prefer women most of all on all of the levels of relating intimately (which goes beyond the physical for me) and have for many years now. This has been what I have personally felt to be sexual maturity for myself- a multi-dimensional array of sensation (including all of the senses) and perception physically, emotionally and spiritually with a woman. It’s not the same for everyone. Could that change? I doubt it, but, one never knows. I have arrived at a place (yes, it is about aging) in which I believe anything is possible.

One's character, content and carriage is what brings eroticism to me. So, I believe that may be part of why my sexual history has been heterosexual, bisexual, asexual and lesbian- it always hinged on these essential features of attraction and synergy for me, not necessarily one's gender.

Since I have become comfortable with what puts me in a state of butch, I would have to say that it is the state of femme that draws me more at this time of my life. Again, a late comer.

I had a wonderful fairly long-term relationship with a bi woman that was married and had an "open" marriage. It simply fit that particular time of my life and I believe that this was her natural and real state of sexuality. She really was equally attracted to and interested in both men and women and remains so. During this time, I was not bi.

I also think I am just more fluid in matters of sexuality and sex due to age and life’s experiences.

This will be an interesting thread, I think! And I also hope that there is no bi bashing.

[Lynn]

Even though I was married for 20 years to a man, and I had other significant relationships with men before that, I do not consider myself to be bisexual. In all of those relationships, there was love and affection, but, finally, no real sexual attraction after the first rush. To me, love is something I can feel for anyone, regardless of sex or gender. But, sexual attraction, especially sustained and able to grow deeper, is quite specific. After so many years of lukewarm sexual feelings, which had a great deal to do with how I ended up feeling about myself and my body, it is a relief and joy to feel the intensity of sexual attraction that I experience in my relationship. Love in a relationship is important, but so is sex, for me. Being identified as a lesbian describes me as someone who prefers to partner with women, on all levels, even if I'm also someone who could love a man. In the past, there have been times that I considered myself bisexual, but I've become more aware of the distinctions in my feelings and realize that this doesn't describe me, truly.

[Gemme]

As I evolved in my sexuality, I identified as bisexual as a bridge, I suppose. I can't say for sure if I was truly bisexual or just afriad to give up something familiar....comfortable, if not exactly what I wanted and needed.

For me, men (FD, bio, as is...whatever term you feel comfortable with) were easy. I knew what I had to do do get what I wanted from them and I could easily remove myself emotionally from them.

Women.....butches......transgenders of one flavor or another.....were very new to me. Frightening and exciting, like being in an open field during an intense lightning storm. The hairs on the back of my neck raised, slightly breathless, knowing that it is dangerous, but not giving a damn because it. felt. good. Right.

I know some folks say bisexuals are indecisive and just can't choose one or the other and some folks say bisexuals are greedy and want it all, and those folks may be right in specific cases but it's not for anyone else to judge. We have different friends for different reasons.....some make us happy and content and some are exciting and push us past our known limits.....why can't it be the same for lovers?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Could you add a bit more ?

What would you like for me to add?
Do you mean.. fluid about your sex as in your gender.. ?

I am fluid with my gender, my sex, the way my mind viewed the man I was with
or fluid about , who you have sex with ?

When I did have sex with my husband, we negotiated, children were born from that, other than that I did not have to nor did I want to, UNLESS it was anal and I was taking his ass.

Then it wasn't really like I was all turned on but my sadistic side was and my mind, I had sex with other guys in the manner and it was during a D/s exchange so some would say I was bisexual where I was like I am queer cause it's 2 queers having sex except when it was me and my husband then some would say it was not, I don't see it as so.
or..something else that I missed entirely ( which happens way too much but it does :) )

Does that help?

[nicetgurl_30]

I think this is a great topic, that doesn't get explored to often. Alot of the time time bisexuality has been played up by media and alot of myths. I think its great for everyone to express what it was or how it related to them now.

Great Thread!

[Julie]

I was told for many years that I was Bi-Sexual... And my response was no, I am a Lesbian, even though I was married. My ex-husband was my best friend and Gay -- We really did have this amazing friendship and loved one another, and through this love, we had two children. Even when I was sleeping with him, I did not feel Bi-Sexual - I still believed in my entire being, that I was a Lesbian.

Even today... People will say, but you were Bi-Sexual, you slept with a man and were married...and for me... It is not about the act of sex - it is about the internal part of my soul that is touched by another woman. That cannot nor has ever been touched by a man. If you took away my ability to be sexual, you could not take away who I am inside. Would I become A-Sexual? Simply, NO!

I am not sure I should have even posted, since I have never felt or identified this way - only labeled as such by my community.

Great topic Merrick - and certainly one we can all learn from.

Julie

[Isadora]

I think it is about sex. That is why it is called bi-sexual. I have never had sex with a (omg what word do I use? breaths through a moment of language horror). But what do I know is that I have only been an out dyke for 35 years and it always meant the same.

[betenoire]

I self-ID as Queer. However, I -am- technically bisexual and will use that word when it's necessary to make my point or when I'm talking to someone who the word "Queer" is just too confusing for. I am legally married to a female (sex = female, gender = Butch) but things could have easily turned out differently for me. I am glad that things ended up how they ended up - because I think if I had ended up with a man that I would have lost my community...but I will never deny that the possibility of a legally binding monogamous relationship with a man was never off of the table for me.

For myself, the sex of the other person just does not figure in when I am evaluating if I am attracted to him/her. It's completely irrelevant.

Gender / gender presentation -does- factor in for me, however. I am attracted to masculine people. Butches and Men (both trans and non-trans) do it for me. (The only exceptions to that rule are Drew Barrymore and Rosario Dawson).

It's important to me that potential dates are clever, well-read, have irreverent senses of humour, like sarcasm, are politically compatible with me, have similar tastes in music, and interact with me the way I like being interacted with.

[Laerkin]

I am so inspired by all of the posts, all of the honesty.

I think bisexuality is the ugly stepchild of the gay community sometimes. One of my nearest and dearest identifies as queer even though she's fully bisexual, simply because she's afraid of the stigma that both straight and gay communities associate with the term - either she can't make up her mind, she's too afraid of being fully gay, she's only half-gay because of politics, she's a whore, she's a traitor...there's a long list of inadequacies that get thrown at people who identify as bisexual.

My understanding of bisexuality is that it's just as fluid and dynamic as any other sexuality or gender.

Some people identify as lesbian because it's about the sex - women just turn them on in a way that other genders never could.

For others, lesbian is more about the emotional and spiritual connection than the sex.

I think the same is true for bisexuals - some people are equally attracted to both sexes but gravitate towards one or the other because of emotional or spiritual connections. Others are split right down the middle. I wish more people who were truly bisexual would come flying out of the closet to help dispel so many of the assumptions and myths.

Personally, I am attracted to pretty much any kind of person (XX, XY, male, female, man, woman, gender-fluid, gender-variant, gender-queer, butch, femme, hym, hir) as long as the energy and the attitude and the charisma are there. I am equal opportunity that way when it comes to what turns me on and makes me horny (though I will say sperm kind of grosses me out no matter how hot the guy is - LOL).

The deciding factor for me is that I'm just naturally drawn to women and folks with women-bodied experiences. I feel more comfortable and open. I feel a connection that blossoms organically when the person I'm interacting with intrinsically understands a little bit of my story.

I don't identify as bisexual because while the sexual attraction may exist, the emotional and spiritual connection reaches it's true depths with women, butches, and FTMs more than the XYs of the world.

If I weren't in a relationship, I wouldn't exclude any possibility, though - I believe circumstances are constantly changing my perception of the world. Matters of the heart can be messy and complicated and I try not to be too rigid in my definitions.

A personal note to betenoire - your post was fantastic. Your last point about the importance of finding a match for your personality, your passions, your style is spot-on. I love it.

[AtLast]

I was told for many years that I was Bi-Sexual... And my response was no, I am a Lesbian, even though I was married. My ex-husband was my best friend and Gay -- We really did have this amazing friendship and loved one another, and through this love, we had two children. Even when I was sleeping with him, I did not feel Bi-Sexual - I still believed in my entire being, that I was a Lesbian.

Even today... People will say, but you were Bi-Sexual, you slept with a man and were married...and for me... It is not about the act of sex - it is about the internal part of my soul that is touched by another woman. That cannot nor has ever been touched by a man. If you took away my ability to be sexual, you could not take away who I am inside. Would I become A-Sexual? Simply, NO!

I am not sure I should have even posted, since I have never felt or identified this way - only labeled as such by my community.

Great topic Merrick - and certainly one we can all learn from.

Julie

What I bolded and underlined is what at times, makes me nuts about what all too often happens within sub-cultures.... labeling.

Also, your speaking to sexuality as not just a physical act, but one of imagination and cognitive dimensions, strikes a deep chord with me. At times, I find that most of what people describe or refer to as sexual activity is very narrow. Absent of the wonders of human sensibilities (as in our multi-faceted senses).

I went through a period of time after a spinal surgery in my early 20's in which I lost my ability to have orgasms. Up to that time, I was certainly active sexually and I knew exactly what I was missing. This occurred when I was actively bisexual.

Though terrified (and angry), I realized that I could go to this pleasure in my mind and things such as scents associated with along with visual perception of being touched by a partner gave me much the same satisfaction because sex, for me goes far beyond orgasms. It is a journey of altered states and perceptions.

Eventually, I regained the ability to have orgasms. yes, I was very grateful. However, this experience brought me to a much broader understanding of sex and sexuality and just my own body. further, it taught me a lot about how our society is quite single-minded about what sex is. Look at the myths that are perpetuated about disabled and elderly people and sex! Or about post menopausal women.

I think becoming asexual is actually pretty difficult unless a person looses cognitive reasoning and function. But, I do believe asexuality is just as valid as hetero, bi, or gay/queer/lesbian. They are all equal in nature to me.

[Dragonfly]

Love knows no gender for me. I have and am exploring the term bisexual as an I'd. Here's where I lose myself. Gender and sexual preference isn't related or fixed ea to corresponding categories ect. I am moving away from factoring my emotional connections and sexual likes dislikes into my gender Id. I have and would be willing to love someone for the person they are inside and my sexual compatibility comes into it last anyway...

[Dragonfly]

I am so inspired by all of the posts, all of the honesty.

I think bisexuality is the ugly stepchild of the gay community sometimes. One of my nearest and dearest identifies as queer even though she's fully bisexual, simply because she's afraid of the stigma that both straight and gay communities associate with the term - either she can't make up her mind, she's too afraid of being fully gay, she's only half-gay because of politics, she's a whore, she's a traitor...there's a long list of inadequacies that get thrown at people who identify as bisexual.

My understanding of bisexuality is that it's just as fluid and dynamic as any other sexuality or gender.

Some people identify as lesbian because it's about the sex - women just turn them on in a way that other genders never could.

For others, lesbian is more about the emotional and spiritual connection than the sex.

I think the same is true for bisexuals - some people are equally attracted to both sexes but gravitate towards one or the other because of emotional or spiritual connections. Others are split right down the middle. I wish more people who were truly bisexual would come flying out of the closet to help dispel so many of the assumptions and myths.

Personally, I am attracted to pretty much any kind of person (XX, XY, male, female, man, woman, gender-fluid, gender-variant, gender-queer, butch, femme, hym, hir) as long as the energy and the attitude and the charisma are there. I am equal opportunity that way when it comes to what turns me on and makes me horny (though I will say sperm kind of grosses me out no matter how hot the guy is - LOL).

The deciding factor for me is that I'm just naturally drawn to women and folks with women-bodied experiences. I feel more comfortable and open. I feel a connection that blossoms organically when the person I'm interacting with intrinsically understands a little bit of my story.

I don't identify as bisexual because while the sexual attraction may exist, the emotional and spiritual connection reaches it's true depths with women, butches, and FTMs more than the XYs of the world.

If I weren't in a relationship, I wouldn't exclude any possibility, though - I believe circumstances are constantly changing my perception of the world. Matters of the heart can be messy and complicated and I try not to be too rigid in my definitions.

A personal note to betenoire - your post was fantastic. Your last point about the importance of finding a match for your personality, your passions, your style is spot-on. I love it.

I so have to say I really get the fear stigma and traitor slinging that sometimes the bisexual experience. I have been left for the XY treated like a sex toy and been excluded as a possible parenting partner by my bisexual exes. I have seen both sides and I think our community is moving forward with terms like queer so we may look deeper an what we each project onto the term bisexual as a label.

[Sachita]

To me, bisexuality is just one mode on the continuum of sexuality. I have even had a period in my life that I felt asexual - and it felt right. LOL, I guess I don't have a great need to badger myself about where I am sexually and never have since I became sexually active with others, or outside of myself (we come to sexual experience long before sharing it with someone else- pun intended ! Unless, unfort6unately, we are abused). As I look back (as well as today), I have just never been alarmed about any stage/mode of sexuality I have gone through.

I do know that I am at the core, lesbian and simply prefer women most of all on all of the levels of relating intimately (which goes beyond the physical for me) and have for many years now. This has been what I have personally felt to be sexual maturity for myself- a multi-dimensional array of sensation (including all of the senses) and perception physically, emotionally and spiritually with a woman. It’s not the same for everyone. Could that change? I doubt it, but, one never knows. I have arrived at a place (yes, it is about aging) in which I believe anything is possible.

.

This soooooo resonated with me. I have not been with a lot of bio-men but I never shut that door not even today and its been over 20 years. I was married to a wonderful man. I loved him dearly but spiritually I couldnt connect. In fact he told me. He sat me down and told me I was lesbian. I always labeled myself as bisexual. Nothing soared me like the connection I had with women but at some point I missed masculine energy and would start spending time with men. My time with men was always more sexual then affectionate. Through the years I tapped into butch-femme and that has been a whole other journey. There has been many roads in my sexual evolution and today I try and avoid labels. At this point I'm in the middle and don't write anything out. Its all about the connection. The one thing that is constant, or so it seems, is my alpha presence. I don't feel like I need to control anyone but I also dont want any tension over it. This has been a battle no matter which sex I've been with. It's took me into a asexual space before. There does seem to be an energy that ignites me and it can be a man or woman- adoration, devotion and a desire to please me. That always seems to "wake" me up. It doesnt even have to be bdsm, anything hardcore. But I do notice that with biomen, its more a comfort zone, loving the energy but not taking it sexual per se beyond mind fuckery. With women, butches, etc it is always leading to serious fucking.

[WheelieStrong]

i seemed very much ashamed of even trying to tell people i'm bisexual, so because my interest in men is much harder to hide i tell people i'm gay and often even go out of my way not to allow myself to find any sort of woman attractive.

The whole world and surprisingly especially the gay community seem to be very anti bi folk, i even objected about the t-shirt stall at a pride event a few years ago selling anti bi t-shirts.

Most people seem to see bi folk as greedy, even completely slutty and incapable of a 1 on 1 relationship, an ex gf and i were even told by a friend that neither of us could still consider ourselves bisexual if we were in a relationship.

i am the worst kind of bisexual person, i have often been the third person in a relationship etc, but that has never been by intent.

Every time i consider finding a female friend in the hopes of more, i feel shamed into secrecy and have a complete lack in confidence of the understanding of the friends i have in real life (instead of online, not imaginary friends lol)

[Sassy]

I hate to put a label on myself but I use to say I was Bi.I was always curious about other girls growing up but also attracted to men.I got married and had two children but was never truly happy.Eventually we divorced and I met someone who identified as a butch lesbian.After dating for three years she decided that she/he was actually transgender.I was fine with this and tried to be supportive as I could but was always screwing up w-the pro-nouns.Eventually she began an emotional affair online that crossed over into realtime.This woman really fed into her/his trans identity as it was the only way she knew her/him.I actually found out about the affair and left the relationship and began to date a man.I quickly realized biological men can just be gross.There were so many things about being with someone who was raised as a female. So whether its a butch or ftm I prefer them over bio men.I got back together w-her/him only to continously catch this person lying.Now I am taking time for me and when I meet the right person it wont matter their sex as much as their integrity.

I've enjoyed this thread. And found this particular entry very helpful to me.
((And yes, BioMen are just gross. ;) ))
Thank you! :)

[GinaSofia]

Sassy & Ms. Lizzy:

Please quit being so fucking ignorant & do not label all bio-males as "gross".
The father who raised me was anything but gross & I find your statement disgusting & insulting(not to mention strengthening to a ridiculous lesbian stereotype).GAWD!

[Soft*Silver]

my submissive was born male and while yearning to transition MtF, he is still male bodied and is NOT gross.

I have been with gross bio men but then I have been with gross females and gross butches and gross FtMs. Gross is a lifestyle not a gender....

I am not bi because Bi is two. To me I have been with way more than two genders. I am attracted to people not genders.

I love me my masculinized energy in whatever body form it comes in but as of late, I have also been hungry for femme energy. I get both in the submissive I have.

[Starbuck]

This is a very interesting thread and I thank you, Merrick, for starting it. I too have been married, twice. The first one was horrible, to an abusive man. Out of that marriage came a son that is now 19 years old. For a long while after getting away from him I was asexual; I was simply just not interested in anyone, neither physically nor emotionally. For years I suffered battle scars and nightmares that made it hard for me to trust again, much less let anyone close.

Fast forward five years and I got married again to a great man. Up to that point I still considered myself heterosexual. But 7 years into my marriage I began to fall apart. I was no longer interested in sex, AT ALL (!) with my husband, I didnt even want him to touch me. It wasn't until three years later that I found the answer that I was looking for: a woman. We connected immediately. Not sexually, but on an emotional realm that I'd completely lost with my husband. I felt human again. I cannot explain the vibrant life she returned to me. I feel like she coaxed a caged bird to fly!

Now comes the interesting part of the story. She's been my gf for over a year now. She's married, IDs as bi and yes, I'm still married, but I'm not sure if I'm bi or if I'm leaning more to the lesbian side because even though I do still have sex with my husband (on the rarest of occasion) I have to think about her to get me in the mood. I know you all are wondering why are you still married?! Right? Well, right now it works for us and I get to see my gf and go on trips with her every so often. If I had my way, I'd be married to her helping to raise her kids but she won't leave her husband. So, such is life. On a positive note, the only other people we are allowed to sleep with is our husband, no other women, we are in a committed relationship to one another.

[Toughy]

Starbuck....

do both your husbands know about the relationship you and your g/f are having?

[*Anya*]

The Kinsey Scale ranges from one exclusively homosexual on one end, exclusively hetero on the other, bisexual in the middle and gradiations on either side of bi.

When I was 18, I was exclusively hetero in practice but fantasizing about women. By the time I was 20, I was having sex with both. By the time I was 29, exclusively homosexual.

I never, ever could connect emotionally with bio men the way I do with women. I am not able to have sex with anyone without an emotional connection, ergo- pigs would probably be flying around the moon before I would ever have a sexual relationship OR a deeply emotional relationship with another bio man.

I do not dislike bio men at all. Some are my very good friends. My two brothers are very good men. Not being sexually attracted to them is just me.

Do I believe sexuality can be fluid? Yes, I do. For me? Not any more. My sexual orientation is firmly fixed on the homosexual side of the Kinsey Scale. I am a woman-identified lesbian, sexually attracted to woman-identified butch women.

Do I judge those on any part of the continum?

Never.

[DapperButch]

Starbuck....

do both your husbands know about the relationship you and your g/f are having?

Back in the day...<cough>... pretty much everyone was on AOL and the message boards through them. The lesbian board was crappy, so I checked out the bi board. Bright, intelligent women! They were cool with me being on there, too. One woman is still a good friend of mine (online..she lives in Utah), but I haven't talked with her in a while.

A lot of the women on this particular board were married and out to their husbands and dated women.

I got together with this one female couple who lived about an hour or so from me. They had gotten together at work. One was actually the others' boss. They have now been together, geez, it has to at least be 15 years. They were both still married and both loved their husbands. Both of their husbands knew and after a period of time were supportive of their relationship (and the women are supportive of each others' relationship with their husband). Periodically, the families would get together.

The other woman (the Utah one), had a similar thing going on (but with a single lesbian). They lived in two different states, but actually had a business together. That one didn't end too well (the single lesbian kind of screwed my friend over). After that relationship, my friend's husband requested she only seek out lovers and no longer have "relationships" with women, as he really struggled with her loving someone else. My friend has been ok with this so far and has been fortunate to find a lover she enjoys in bed, but not so much out of bed...so it works!

For all three of the above women, they have talked about how they really need both sexes in their lives to feel fulfilled.

However, I have also spoken to other bisexual women that say they can be completely fulfilled committed to only one person. I do believe this to be true.

[betenoire]

I think it is about sex. That is why it is called bi-sexual.

Hi, Isa! <3

I am curious if being gay is strictly about sex also? After all, they do call it homosexual. Ditto for straight people, they call it heterosexual.

[Elijah]

Really interesting topic.

I have never ID'ed as Bi because I have never had any doubt about where My attractions lie, but I have dated several people who have ID'ed as such.

For Me, it always made sense that someone who was attracted to masculinity, and who were very self aware and open to connections with all kinds of people, without regard to what is between their legs, may have some overlap.

I think being bisexual has nothing to do with you ability to be fidelitous (if that's what you seek).

I think our own fears as a community have driven some very hurtful and frankly untrue biases about bisexuals.

That's why I am happy and proud to ID as queer, because in general, I think the queer community is much more open to ID's that don't fit into easy little packages, that serve to quell our fears.

As an aside, I think it is important to remember that we can find bad behaviors and personality traits in any group of individuals.

~Elijah

[Starbuck]

Starbuck....

do both your husbands know about the relationship you and your g/f are having?

Hi Toughy, while I am out to my husband, he does not know about my gf, or at least I don't think he does. I have a house mate who says she thinks he does know but just isn't saying anything. And my girlfriend's husband does not know either. Now the interesting part is that I can visit her house and interact with her as a friend while in front of her husband, and as a friend with her husband as well, I like him a lot. I'd never do anything to break their marriage apart because they are happy (I just fill a void he can't ;)). They invite my husband and I over for parties and football games and such and no one is the wiser. Why? Because my gf is a friend with my husband (they work in the same building) and I'm a friend with her hubby and we're all Army veterans. We all have that in common so the men see that as our first commonality. I hope that answered your question. :).

[The_Lady_Snow]

Are you all practicing safe sex???? That's one helluva interaction you got going Starbuck good luck!

[Strappie]

This is a very interesting thread and I thank you, Merrick, for starting it. I too have been married, twice. The first one was horrible, to an abusive man. Out of that marriage came a son that is now 19 years old. For a long while after getting away from him I was asexual; I was simply just not interested in anyone, neither physically nor emotionally. For years I suffered battle scars and nightmares that made it hard for me to trust again, much less let anyone close.

Fast forward five years and I got married again to a great man. Up to that point I still considered myself heterosexual. But 7 years into my marriage I began to fall apart. I was no longer interested in sex, AT ALL (!) with my husband, I didnt even want him to touch me. It wasn't until three years later that I found the answer that I was looking for: a woman. We connected immediately. Not sexually, but on an emotional realm that I'd completely lost with my husband. I felt human again. I cannot explain the vibrant life she returned to me. I feel like she coaxed a caged bird to fly!

Now comes the interesting part of the story. She's been my gf for over a year now. She's married, IDs as bi and yes, I'm still married, but I'm not sure if I'm bi or if I'm leaning more to the lesbian side because even though I do still have sex with my husband (on the rarest of occasion) I have to think about her to get me in the mood. I know you all are wondering why are you still married?! Right? Well, right now it works for us and I get to see my gf and go on trips with her every so often. If I had my way, I'd be married to her helping to raise her kids but she won't leave her husband. So, such is life. On a positive note, the only other people we are allowed to sleep with is our husband, no other women, we are in a committed relationship to one another.

Star... I say good for you! Who are we to judge you and your situation. Not that I think anyone is outwardly. Let the bird fly and soar. You and only you know what is good for you in all this. I've had many friends is situations such as yours. I was there for support. However I tried to talk a couple out of divorce, because the grass isn't always greener on the other side. I have one friend that is married to a man and has an open relationship with a lesbian, now her gf. They all 3 go out together and come to parties with my friends and everyone has excepted their life choices. It works for them, so do what is working for you!

You are very brave to come forward and out to everyone here such as you have. I commend you for being so forth coming!!

[Starbuck]

Are you all practicing safe sex???? That's one helluva interaction you got going Starbuck good luck!

Hi Snow, my gf has been married to her hubby for 15 years and faithful (up till now ;)). I've been married 12 years and faithful (up till now ;)). After much discussion and some safe sex, we are now fluid bonded, as we are with our husbands. (f)(f)

[The_Lady_Snow]

Hi Snow, my gf has been married to her hubby for 15 years and faithful (up till now ;)). I've been married 12 years and faithful (up till now ;)). After much discussion and some safe sex, we are now fluid bonded, as we are with our husbands. (f)(f)

That's awesome, I just have to bring up that there is a possibility that someone's hubby may be getting a lil something something too, I mean if they don't know about ya'll how do ya'll know about what they got going on? I'm not saying there is, or they are the possibility is there. :)

[Starbuck]

That's awesome, I just have to bring up that there is a possibility that someone's hubby may be getting a lil something something too, I mean if they don't know about ya'll how do ya'll know about what they got going on? I'm not saying there is, or they are the possibility is there. :)


We are so lucky, Snow. Of all the men in the world, these two are the ones who will never cheat! I even told mine once that it wasn't fair that I was holding out on him that if he felt the need to find someone else that I would understand. You know what his response was? "Nope, it'll never happen, I'm married to you.". And I truly believe him because his ex-wife cheated on him and left him for her "soul mate" and that really hurt him so I think he's really devoted to me. That's kinda why I'm still with him, I think. Now my gf's hubby is a strong Christian man and I don't think think he'd cheat based on that fact alone.

[The_Lady_Snow]

We are so lucky, Snow. Of all the men in the world, these two are the ones who will never cheat! I even told mine once that it wasn't fair that I was holding out on him that if he felt the need to find someone else that I would understand. You know what his response was? "Nope, it'll never happen, I'm married to you.". And I truly believe him because his ex-wife cheated on him and left him for her "soul mate" and that really hurt him so I think he's really devoted to me. That's kinda why I'm still with him, I think. Now my gf's hubby is a strong Christian man and I don't think think he'd cheat based on that fact alone.


Phew.... Well shit, all I gotta say is mad props to you for putting your shit out there for us to read, you're living your life as you see you should be and it looks like you get to have straight priveledge AND you get to have a lil queer fun here and there! Good luck on all your relationships and thank you for sharing yourself with us:)

[sweetiefemme]

We are so lucky, Snow. Of all the men in the world, these two are the ones who will never cheat! I even told mine once that it wasn't fair that I was holding out on him that if he felt the need to find someone else that I would understand. You know what his response was? "Nope, it'll never happen, I'm married to you.". And I truly believe him because his ex-wife cheated on him and left him for her "soul mate" and that really hurt him so I think he's really devoted to me. That's kinda why I'm still with him, I think. Now my gf's hubby is a strong Christian man and I don't think think he'd cheat based on that fact alone.

I am so glad you found what works for you, my only 'problem' is that I have been on the other end of a cheating partner and it devastated me. Not really here to judge, just my 2 cents. :bunchflowers:

[Starbuck]

Phew.... Well shit, all I gotta say is mad props to you for putting your shit out there for us to read, you're living your life as you see you should be and it looks like you get to have straight priveledge AND you get to have a lil queer fun here and there! Good luck on all your relationships and thank you for sharing yourself with us:)


I don't know that I'd call it a priveledge, as I have to deal with him wanting sex when I don't. That's the worst part about the whole ordeal. My true leaning is toward my gf and I often times feel like my marriage is an arraingement so that I remain financially secure. I do enjoy our outings that we take, the motorcycle rides we go on, the activities we embark on that don't include sex are more enjoyable to me because I'd rather save myself for my gf, does that make sense? I thank you for talking with me and not judging me.

[princessbelle]

Starbuck,

I promise you i'm not judging either. But, what about when one of the husbands find out about the cheating. You know they will most surely tell the other one, and then ka-boom?

What happens next. I'm sure you have thought about this but just now reading your posts it is something that i immediately see as lighted tnt. I just worry about this situation somehow blowing up. With the close friendships in all of this, it will be a huge loss if it explodes.

Do you have any plans if that happens? Just an observation and maybe curious to know if you have a "plan b".

[Dominique]

my only comment/concern is this four lettered word called RAGE.

[*Anya*]

As one that was cheated on, the pain of betrayal is so great when it all ruptures and trust me, it ruptures, sooner or later; is so great, that I struggle with it still. It wounds to the core.

When children are involved, the pain is even greater.

Sharing my own experience is not a judgment.

I lived it during my 19 years with her.

[Julie]

I am really struggling with this. I am so happy Starbuck that you were able to find love in your new girlfriend - but a part (okay a huge part) of me cannot understand the cheating and betrayal you are doing to a man who is committed to you. I would say the same thing to someone on this board who was cheating on their partner.

It's cheating. Bottom line, it is cheating. These men who you say are honorable men and love you - They deserve the same respect. I mean you say with such sureness, he would never cheat on you, because you are married. How does this not break your heart? Every time you touch your girlfriend, how does this act of cheating, not break your heart?

And in front of these two men, you carry on a charade.

The only thing which can come out of this is HURT. One day they will find out, and the hurt which will be felt will be great, and you will be the bearer of this hurt.

I am sorry if I have offended... You brought your relationship(s) to the forefront with an openness and in doing so, you are giving us an opportunity to respond. I am just sad by this. Nobody deserves to be betrayed.

Why can't you just be honest and leave them? Love for another and take the risk that loving takes. Or try and work out an open relationship - something, that involves some form of honesty.

Sorry... This whole thing really makes me very sad for those men.

Julie

[betenoire]

Cheating is selfish, cowardly, and cruel - no matter what the circumstances are.

[Dominique]

my only comment/concern is this four lettered word called RAGE.

Hi Starbuck. My apologies for a drive by post. It was very brave of you to share such a personal secret with us.

The first Lesbian love of my life was a butch cop. Repeatidly, she would tell me, the prisons are full of people because of RAGE. And after reading your story, that is what came to my mind. Betrayals of trust push people over the edge. Please be careful. Certainly, it's your life to live. I'd venture to say almost all of us know how powerful the attraction between two women can be. Maybe try professional (neutral) counseling to help sort this out.

I truely wish you well.

[Gráinne]

I also agree it was very brave of you to share. And it's certainly your choice.

I too fell in love with a woman when I was married. She lived in a different city, but we had a sometimes physical and a very much emotional affair for over a year. Ultimately, it ended because I didn't want to hurt my husband, who was and is a good man and father. She had a partner with whom she was having problems, and I didn't want to be an escape. Both of us had to treat our partners with honor before getting involved with anyone else. That, to me, was keeping my vow.

But ask yourself this: if you know your husband's ex-wife cheated on him and destroyed him emotionally, how do you justify doing the same? Because it will come out in the wash, end two marriages, and hit like a sucker punch to two men. If you or your gf have minor children, they will be hurt-badly. It might seem like a foolproof arrangement, but divorce court is full of husbands who weren't quite as chumpy as their wives thought they were. And by her actions, your gf is showing that she can and will cheat.

I can't sit and judge because I have been there. But when it does blow up, it has the potential to be financially and emotionally devastating to at least four people.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I was excited to see this thread yesterday, but ultimately had to walk away from the computer without posting to avoid saying something that would get me moderated. I'm very happy to see that I'm not the only one who isn't so much concerned with "not judging" people who are lying and cheating and seem proud of it.

I am bisexual, and I've spent my entire adult life fighting an uphill battle against negative stereotypes about bisexual people. Bisexuals can't be trusted, they're liars, they'll cheat on you, they're not capable of being faithful. And now, here's a thread about bisexuality, in which all of these negative stereotypes are being put on display as if it were perfectly normal, acceptable behavior.

Starbuck, others here may be concerned with not judging you, but I'm not one of those people. I am judging you. Lying and cheating are not okay. What you're both doing to your husbands is not okay. Liars lie, cheaters cheat, and the whole concept of the two of you being "faithful" while cheating on your respective husbands is laughable. I certainly don't appreciate the attempt to justify lying and cheating because there's bisexuality involved. Bisexual people are perfectly capable of monogamy, just like straight and gay people are. Being bisexual doesn't make cheating okay.

[Greyson]

Bisexual people are perfectly capable of monogamy, just like straight and gay people are. Being bisexual doesn't make cheating okay.

I agree, "Bisexual people are perfectly capable of monogamy..." I cannot say in all truthfullness that I agree with not being truthful with your parnter/s. I have been very hurt by cheating and I have cheated in my life time. When I was in my early adulthood I cheated on my girlfriend. It was not a daliance. The "other woman" fell in love with me. I felt like crap. I was hurting two very wonderful women. In the end I lost my partner, her love and respect she once held for me. Eventually she married one of my brothers. (Karma) The "other woman" went on to find a partner that loved her and only her.

I am not saying having more than one sexual, and/or romantic interest is wrong. If you are all legal adults and honest with everyone involved it is your choice how all of you lead your life. If not, you will eventually have to deal with the choice of your actions. And unfortunately, even the ones that did not willingly, knowningly make the choice, they too will have no choice but to live with the consequences of your actions.

[dreadgeek]

You make a good point here. I'm curious about something. Let's hold everything else constant but change just one significant factor.

There are still two women involved in a relationship but one of the women is cheating on her partner with a man. Her partner doesn't know this is going on. The partner who is cheating posts her story here. Are people still going to praise her for her bravery and courage to be herself? Or would it suddenly not be okay because the victim here is another woman?

If people still would not have a problem with it, is there ANYTHING that someone could do in a relationship (outside of outright violence which, I presume, we still can judge harshly) that would cause people to say "that's not okay". If, on the other hand, someone would judge the woman who cheats on her wife with a man, why is it that we cannot judge cheating on her husband with a woman?

Cheers
Aj


I was excited to see this thread yesterday, but ultimately had to walk away from the computer without posting to avoid saying something that would get me moderated. I'm very happy to see that I'm not the only one who isn't so much concerned with "not judging" people who are lying and cheating and seem proud of it.

I am bisexual, and I've spent my entire adult life fighting an uphill battle against negative stereotypes about bisexual people. Bisexuals can't be trusted, they're liars, they'll cheat on you, they're not capable of being faithful. And now, here's a thread about bisexuality, in which all of these negative stereotypes are being put on display as if it were perfectly normal, acceptable behavior.

Starbuck, others here may be concerned with not judging you, but I'm not one of those people. I am judging you. Lying and cheating are not okay. What you're both doing to your husbands is not okay. Liars lie, cheaters cheat, and the whole concept of the two of you being "faithful" while cheating on your respective husbands is laughable. I certainly don't appreciate the attempt to justify lying and cheating because there's bisexuality involved. Bisexual people are perfectly capable of monogamy, just like straight and gay people are. Being bisexual doesn't make cheating okay.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yanno... This tends to get confusing had I "called out" Starbucks on her cheating, lying, deceit, alll the obvious things fucked up that she's doing to her kid, friend, husband, lover their kids somewhere someone somehow would of viewed it as big bully Snow wagging her finger at poor Star.

She's not seeing it like we do (Star) she's happy with her life, sex, lies because she gets her cake and she gets to eat seconds too.

She doesn't get she's got straight bennies, gets to say she's bi-lesbian-queer when she can or she's here. It's not going to change she's clear on that, here and in pm.

So what else is one gonna do? Bi-sexuals aren't cheaters, deceivers, sneaky unsafe people yet once in a blue moon someone will come across these boards who since she joined has talked about the married lover.

I guess we can say she's not but to her, in her head she is and none of us is gonna be able to sway het from that.

At that point I just shrug and an like whatever cause I was like :|..

[dreadgeek]

I think it is about sex. That is why it is called bi-sexual. I have never had sex with a (omg what word do I use? breaths through a moment of language horror). But what do I know is that I have only been an out dyke for 35 years and it always meant the same.

So, I presume, that you consider homosexuality to be about sex as well as heterosexuality? If not, may I ask by what possible logic you can use to say that bisexuality is about sex (since, according to you, that is why it's called sex) while neither hetero- nor homosexuality are about sex? Or do you concede as accurate the right-wing, anti-gay meme that anything that is *not* heterosexuality is about nothing more than sex?

cheers
Aj

[Daddiesgirl]

I have been having this same conversation with my gf who identifies as a soft butch. I am bi and have always been with both men and women sexually. The strange thing is that I never did develop feeling for another woman outside of being friends. It was purely sexual. I was married to a man for several years and have two small children and not once during my marriage did I have the urge to be with women. I was happy and he satisfied me. Once we divorced I was free to be with women again which I did, but again, there was no emotional attachment. Then I met my gf. She's AMAZING! I fell for her hard and fast. It was like nothing I had ever felt before. I had never loved a man like I love her. Perhaps before when I was with women I never felt an emotional attachment because they were all femmes and my gf is very much butch. I don't know. All I know is that she has a VERY hard time dealing with the fact that I'm bi. She is very insecure about it and always says that she fears that she's not going to be enough for me. I can't fix her insecurities, all I can do is try to make sure she knows that I love her and want to be with only her. But back to the original question, I do identify as bi and although before it was purely for sexual reasons, it isn't any longer. <3 LML <3

[Cin]

When someone posts something as charged as what Starbuck did people will naturally be moved. Her nearly gleeful portrayal of her powder keg existence is almost painful to read. We have all experienced betrayal on some level, perhaps even been the one to betray so it is difficult to remain objective. Also considering the stigma that seems to still be associated with bisexuality it was with a distinct lack of forethought that Starbuck chose to post her story in a thread entitled so what does bisexuality mean to you. And I also believe she vastly misjudged the mood of her audience.

When someone wants to respond to a post where they find the behavior of the poster unacceptable there are really only two ways to go, there will be degrees of variance within the responses but still only two ways to go. You either want to make your moral outrage clear or you want to help the person understand where their actions will ultimately lead. Either is perfectly acceptable and not at all attached to the gender of the people involved.

You can be outraged because of what Starbuck is doing to others. You may understand the pain and damage she is and will cause from a place of experience. In which case your response will naturally come from that understanding. You can share your disgust as well as your extreme displeasure at the way she is adding to the stereotype of the cheating greedy bisexual. And it is certainly an understandable position. However, I don’t believe to choose another less judgmental approach means one does not understand the severity of what she is doing. Nor does it have to mean you believe that it is okay to do what she is doing. Or that it is okay to do it because it is men who are being cheated on.

I think people stop listening when they feel judged and attacked. And it is not necessary to care about this. It is perfectly acceptable to judge and to share your moral outrage. Let me put a great degree of emphasis on that. Perfectly acceptable indeed. But I also think it is okay to try to reach the person by keeping the lines of communication open. Perhaps you will be responsible for helping someone achieve that "ahah" moment by remaining compassionate and not beating the person over the head with your moral outrage. Either way is okay. But I don’t think one’s choice has to be based on what is the gender of the person being cuckolded

[Anastasia]

Cheating is selfish, cowardly, and cruel - no matter what the circumstances are.

Fundamentally I agree with you.

But there can be other circumstances that make choices harder and make your statement seem flippant and short sighted.

I will use my own story as an example. Feel free to judge it how you see fit, I say this knowing that it is impossible to really understand all of the complexities of anyone's relationships or reality.

I have always known I was attracted to women, but have not ever been in a relationship with one. I fell in love with a man over 20 years ago and we have been together ever since. Despite my attraction to women, I did not do anything about it because I was in a committed relationship. I have been married to that same man and was faithful to that man for over 20 years. I say 'was' because I made a choice a few months ago that I both do and do not regret. I did not tell my husband. I am currently engaged in an emotional affair. I did not tell my husband, nor do I intend to. The latter is a bigger betrayal in my opinion, but we will stick with the original premise for now.

I will illustrate the points that lead me to my decision:

Point 1: A little over two years ago my husband (who is 14 years older than me) was diagnosed with prostate cancer. The emotional and physical toll of the diagnosis and treatment ended our sex life for 2 years and after 2 years of absolutely no physical contact, what sex life returned was an occasional desire on his part for me to perform a particular act that I willingly do, but no desire on his part to reciprocate or even show desire toward me at all. I have been often brutally honest with him about my feelings and desires, I have begged, gotten angry, thrown myself at him, tried to show him what I want, etc. Nothing has changed other than he now avoids the subject altogether.

Is this indicative of a problem in our marriage? Yes. Is it worth leaving 20 years of history with a man that I love (regardless of my sexual preference)? In my opinion, no.


Point 2:The statistics and realities with prostate cancer treatment, the incidence of cancer recurrence, his other very real and serious illness, and just the changes in sexual desire and function in men as they age, predict that sexual issues we have are not likely to change and further treatment for this or another very serious illness he has will be needed.

I am the breadwinner of the family. At this point I pay all of the bills and his medical insurance is through my job (he is self employed). I will not have him think for even ONE MINUTE that he will not be able to pay for his current or any future treatment or that he will be alone if he is to fall seriously ill again. As long as he will have me I will be by his side to his or my last breath. Dramatic, but reality.

Point 3: One option is to tell him that I want to stay married to him, but am sexually attracted to women and ask his "permission" to have another relationship with a woman. Someone asked me once how I would feel if he gave his "blessings" to this type of arrangement. I said I would be thrilled, but I have known him 20 years and the likelihood of that is slim, but the risk of him looking at me and thinking that I had lived 20 years of a lie and I had never been attracted to him or loved him is too great. I will not have him think that ever, because it is not true.

Point 4: Another option is to remain faithful in an essentially sexless marriage with promise of sex returning to even what it was before prostate cancer. A lot of women end up leaving their husbands after prostate cancer treatment. The emotional toll is devastating and then when your partner decides he is ok with no sex life regardless of what your desire are, it gets worse. I am not leaving. So remaining faithful in a sexless marriage is what I chose for 2 years. We do not have children, only each other. I could not throw myself into my kids lives to try to avoid the loneliness. What it did was made me insane and ultimately when given the chance I cheated. I offer no excuses. I made the decision. The sex was great the aftermath was, probably deservedly, a fucking nightmare.

From all of this I summarize:

Is he perfect? No.
I am perfect? Not even close.
Do I love him? Yes, totally and completely.
Can I live without physical contact with another person? No. And if I am going to be with someone else I choose to be with the gender I am physically attracted to.
Is absolving myself of guilt worth the emotional pain and financial impact it would inflict on him? No.

Prior to all of this I would have never thought there was room in my heart for anyone other than my husband, recent events have called that into question.

I do not know where I am going from here. I do not have any excuses or answers. What I did and am doing is wrong, but I am not sure nailing myself to the cross and denying my needs is right either.

[betenoire]

Anastasia I am sorry that your husband is and has been ill. I can see how that is a dissatisfactory situation.

However. I stand by my original statement. Cheating, regardless of the circumstances, is selfish, is cowardly, is cruel.

[Anastasia]

Anastasia I am sorry that your husband is and has been ill. I can see how that is a dissatisfactory situation.

However. I stand by my original statement. Cheating, regardless of the circumstances, is selfish, is cowardly, is cruel.


Unsatisfactory. Interesting choice of words.

I truly hope you never have to live through about this type of "unsatisfactory" situation.

[betenoire]

Unsatisfactory. Interesting choice of words.

I truly hope you never have to live through about this type of "unsatisfactory" situation.

You know absolutely nothing about my situation. Just saying.

And here I am, not cheating.

[*Anya*]

My very measured response has zero to do with the sex or gender of anyone involved. I personally can not help but identify with the two husbands involved (unknowingly so).

I have never been unfaithful in any relationship I have had. My ex, was.

If I had gone into that relationship and we had both agreed to have some sort of "open" relationship, then to me, that would not be cheating. Our relationship was, however, pledged to be monogamous.

Different picture. Different expectations. Different outcome once I discovered the betrayal.

That there are children involved in both families makes it even more difficult to stand by and say nothing.

When we put our lives out there for this community to read, we/I run the risk of negative feedback. We have human reactions and feelings.

I try very hard to not be reactive in my posts. I am aware I am failing to be
objective in this instance. It is the best I can do given the digression from the original topic.

[Cin]

Morality is a difficult thing to discuss really. Personal morality is by definition a personal choice. However, the reality is that if you believe yourself to be an ethical person then your response to a situation will be you doing the right or moral thing. Therefore anyone else confronted with the same situation would invariably make the same choice. To claim to not make the rules or to define morality for anyone else is just a way of not accepting this responsibility.

If it is okay for you to cheat, lie, steal or whatever under a certain set of circumstances then it is okay for the other to do the same under the same conditions. To me the measure of morality is that it is impartial.

If it is a logical right thinking choice for you in a situation, then in the same situation it is the logical right thinking choice for other reasonable people as well. Morality should be defined impartially.

The other necessary component for personal morality is equal respect for the humanity of all persons. Not equal respect for everyone in everyway. Just equal respect for the humanity of all.

[dreadgeek]

Morality is a difficult thing to discuss really. Personal morality is by definition a personal choice. However, the reality is that if you believe yourself to be an ethical person then your response to a situation will be you doing the right or moral thing. Therefore anyone else confronted with the same situation would invariably make the same choice. To claim to not make the rules or to define morality for anyone else is just a way of not accepting this responsibility.

If it is okay for you to cheat, lie, steal or whatever under a certain set of circumstances then it is okay for the other to do the same under the same conditions. To me the measure of morality is that it is impartial.

If it is a logical right thinking choice for you in a situation, then in the same situation it is the logical right thinking choice for other reasonable people as well. Morality should be defined impartially.

The other necessary component for personal morality is equal respect for the humanity of all persons. Not equal respect for everyone in everyway. Just equal respect for the humanity of all.

The above in red is what I was driving at when I asked my question about what role the gender of the participants played in things. To me, if this situation is acceptable such that we should not judge things in this instance then we should not be in the least bit disturbed *regardless* of the configuration of the parties.

If it's okay for Barb to cheat on Mike with Mary, then it must also be okay for Mike to cheat on Barb with Julie or, for that matter, for Barb to cheat on Mary with Stan. Once we have decided that this is entirely unremarkable behavior, then any limits we choose to put on this must be *entirely* arbitrary. We should not endorse any behavior or principle--most especially our own--unless we are willing to have that behavior or principle become universal. If we do endorse some behavior or principle, particularly one that has manifest potential to cause harm to others, for ourselves then by what logic do we deny it to others?

Cheers
Aj

[Cin]

The above in red is what I was driving at when I asked my question about what role the gender of the participants played in things. To me, if this situation is acceptable such that we should not judge things in this instance then we should not be in the least bit disturbed *regardless* of the configuration of the parties.

If it's okay for Barb to cheat on Mike with Mary, then it must also be okay for Mike to cheat on Barb with Julie or, for that matter, for Barb to cheat on Mary with Stan. Once we have decided that this is entirely unremarkable behavior, then any limits we choose to put on this must be *entirely* arbitrary. We should not endorse any behavior or principle--most especially our own--unless we are willing to have that behavior or principle become universal. If we do endorse some behavior or principle, particularly one that has manifest potential to cause harm to others, for ourselves then by what logic do we deny it to others?

Cheers
Aj

I think your whole post is very important to understand and to digest. I especially wanted to emphasize the part in red. That's what I was aiming for but I missed the mark. Thank you.

[Chancie]

Could I count on Starbuck and her lover if I were outed as a teacher and my job was in jeopardy?

Would they say, Oh, she's a fabulous teacher; I can't wait until my child is in high school.

Or would they snicker when my name came up at a PTA meeting?

[Novelafemme]

Morality is a difficult thing to discuss really. Personal morality is by definition a personal choice. However, the reality is that if you believe yourself to be an ethical person then your response to a situation will be you doing the right or moral thing. Therefore anyone else confronted with the same situation would invariably make the same choice. To claim to not make the rules or to define morality for anyone else is just a way of not accepting this responsibility.

If it is okay for you to cheat, lie, steal or whatever under a certain set of circumstances then it is okay for the other to do the same under the same conditions. To me the measure of morality is that it is impartial.

If it is a logical right thinking choice for you in a situation, then in the same situation it is the logical right thinking choice for other reasonable people as well. Morality should be defined impartially.

The other necessary component for personal morality is equal respect for the humanity of all persons. Not equal respect for everyone in everyway. Just equal respect for the humanity of all.

Thank you, Miss Tick. Beautifully written and articulated in a non-judgemental manner.

[JustJo]

Having been the partner that was cheated on, I have zero tolerance for cheating.

Having been the partner who was "the meal ticket" that was used for my money, I have no respect for those who take financial advantage of others either.

To be clear, if there is honesty in the relationship, then I have no issue. In my view, any set or group of partners can make whatever arrangement works for them with regard to open or closed relationship, or who supports whom....and I have no issue.

But there has to be honesty and openness about what's going on.

I don't have an issue with Starbuck, or anyone else, being bisexual or having multiple partners, even if married or in a committed relationship...as long as that has been shared openly and agreed to.

What bothers me is that Starbuck and her lover are both decieving their partners, and Starbuck makes no bones about staying with her husband for financial security (and because she enjoys some of the activities they share), but that his sexual desire for her is a burden. To me, she is using her husband and lying to him....and that bothers me a lot, especially when coupled with her gleeful confidence that he would never cheat, and her profile statements about loving God and going to church. For me, there's a huge disconnect....and I doubt that her husband would take the same view of the situation that she apparently does.

Anastasia....I feel for you. I truly do. I know how hard it is to be in a sexless marriage with someone you care about. I endured 2 years of that in my first marriage, and it's soul killing stuff.

I do have to say, though, that I still don't agree with the deception (and I don't think you do either or you wouldn't be in such pain about it). Can you not be honest with him about what you have and do feel for him, assure him that you will stay married and continue to provide the medical insurance he needs, and redefine your relationship going forward to allow you to get what you need and want?

Only you can answer that, of course....but to me it's a course worth pursuing, for your own emotional well-being as well as his.

I know that taking the ethical route is hard. I'm doing it now in a different circumstance and struggling to "do the right thing." I still think it's worth doing.

[dreadgeek]

Morality is a difficult thing to discuss really. Personal morality is by definition a personal choice. However, the reality is that if you believe yourself to be an ethical person then your response to a situation will be you doing the right or moral thing. Therefore anyone else confronted with the same situation would invariably make the same choice. To claim to not make the rules or to define morality for anyone else is just a way of not accepting this responsibility.

If it is okay for you to cheat, lie, steal or whatever under a certain set of circumstances then it is okay for the other to do the same under the same conditions. To me the measure of morality is that it is impartial.

If it is a logical right thinking choice for you in a situation, then in the same situation it is the logical right thinking choice for other reasonable people as well. Morality should be defined impartially.

The other necessary component for personal morality is equal respect for the humanity of all persons. Not equal respect for everyone in everyway. Just equal respect for the humanity of all.

Would you mind terribly if I linked to this in the Breaking the Spell thread? What you say here is the kind of meme I want being batted around in that thread.

Cheers
Aj

[betenoire]

If Caroline loses her sex drive (because she was depressed, because she had had a hysterectomy, because because because) and Jonathan decides to cheat on her (With Judith or Samuel or Blake) because his sexual needs are not being met - I certainly hope that everybody who thinks I am mean today because I say there is no set of circumstances that justifies cheating remembers to dote on Jonathan and be understanding.

[Cin]

Would you mind terribly if I linked to this in the Breaking the Spell thread? What you say here is the kind of meme I want being batted around in that thread.

Cheers
Aj

No, of course I certainly wouldn't mind at all. Help yourself. That's quite flattering coming from you. Thanks.

[Strappie]

If Caroline loses her sex drive (because she was depressed, because she had had a hysterectomy, because because because) and Jonathan decides to cheat on her (With Judith or Samuel or Blake) because his sexual needs are not being met - I certainly hope that everybody who thinks I am mean today because I say there is no set of circumstances that justifies cheating remembers to dote on Jonathan and be understanding.

Bentenoire,

I appreciate your hard stance on this subject. But might I remind you unless you are IN the shoes of these people you will never begin to know and undeerstand how it is for them. You are a very strong person and I commend you for the view you have, that you yourself would never dream of cheating.

Nobody is here to change your thoughts and views!

What I see is some people with compassion and willing to share their life. Perhaps they are reaching out for guidance from us? Or maybe just an ear to get it off their chest.

I for one am not judging these people. Jesus I wasn't ever perfect growing up and still am not perfect.

[Dude]

I once met a couple (butch & femme together for 20 years) who were best
of friends, both married to husbands who were also best friends.
Apparently ,they realized their attraction for each other while the husbands
were away.
They allowed a few weeks for the whole thing to sink in and then told their
husbands and teenage kids.
It's called integrity and I believe the way they handled it, allowed them to
stay together for 20 years
My bet is they are still together.

[Sassy]

I once met a couple (butch & femme together for 20 years) who were best
of friends, both married to husbands who were also best friends.
Apparently ,they realized their attraction for each other while the husbands
were away.
They allowed a few weeks for the whole thing to sink in and then told their
husbands and teenage kids.
It's called integrity and I believe the way they handled it, allowed them to
stay together for 20 years
My bet is they are still together.

And that is how things should go down. Kudos to people who live honestly and unapologetically. :)

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Bentenoire,

I appreciate your hard stance on this subject. But might I remind you unless you are IN the shoes of these people you will never begin to know and undeerstand how it is for them. You are a very strong person and I commend you for the view you have, that you yourself would never dream of cheating.

Nobody is here to change your thoughts and views!

What I see is some people with compassion and willing to share their life. Perhaps they are reaching out for guidance from us? Or maybe just an ear to get it off their chest.

I for one am not judging these people. Jesus I wasn't ever perfect growing up and still am not perfect.

Really? What BFP are you reading? On the BFP I'm reading, people try to change each other's thoughts and views all the damn time.

[betenoire]

Bentenoire,

I appreciate your hard stance on this subject. But might I remind you unless you are IN the shoes of these people you will never begin to know and undeerstand how it is for them. You are a very strong person and I commend you for the view you have, that you yourself would never dream of cheating.

Nobody is here to change your thoughts and views!

What I see is some people with compassion and willing to share their life. Perhaps they are reaching out for guidance from us? Or maybe just an ear to get it off their chest.

I for one am not judging these people. Jesus I wasn't ever perfect growing up and still am not perfect.

You know, Strappie, if I didn't know any better I'd have sworn you were trying to Moderate me! (Actually, I thought you were. I pm'd someone to ask if you are a Moderator all of a sudden.)

(and, p/s - when someone says "what you said is flippant and short-sighted! and here is why!" they absolutely -are- trying to change my views.)

[J. Mason]

One question because I am like up in arms over this, why do people even care if someone is cheating or what others perceive as cheating? It is their life not yours so why be bothered with it?

I may get alot of flaming for this but I just wanted to put it out there as a thought to things.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Anyone else wanting to get back on topic? I sure am.

I am bisexual. I figured out that I was bisexual in my early 20's, but I didn't actually have a romantic or sexual relationship with another woman until quite a bit later. In the years between, I made out with straight girls at party and got teased mercilessly by an acquaintance about being "bi in theory" because he'd never actually seen me with another woman. When I finally did start dating and having sex with other women, it was almost always as the bi girl in a threesome with a heterosexual couple. The lesbians I did manage to meet at the time wanted nothing at all to do with a bisexual woman, and I didn't know any other bisexuals.

I didn't actually have a serious, committed, monogamous relationship with another woman until I moved to Oregon and met my wife. It was such a revelation to finally meet a woman who I was attracted to who was also attracted to me and didn't think that bisexual women are all just confused, selfish disease vectors. We've been happily together and monogamous for five years, with no end in sight. I can say with confidence that I would never, ever cheat on her. If something ever did happen that resulted in one of us being unable or unwilling to fulfill the other's sexual needs, we'd discuss it and work out a resolution we both could live with (like staying together but opening up the relationship).

Since meeting my wife, I've heard a lot of things from friends and family. I've been told that it's great that I've finally "admitted" that I'm really a lesbian (I'm not and I haven't). A few people have been adamant that I *can't* be bisexual forever, I have to "pick one." Quite a few have assumed that we must be polyamorous because if I'm still bisexual then that means I have to have a partner of each gender at all times. I also get people giving me a sympathetic look and telling me that they were bisexual, too, before they finally came all the way out of the closet and admitted they were really a lesbian.

What I always tell these people is that just like other sexual orientations, I was born this way. I didn't choose to be bisexual and I can't choose to stop being bisexual. I was bisexual when I was 12 years old and playing with Barbies. I was bisexual when I was a sexually aware but inexperienced teenager. I was bisexual when I was exclusively dating men. Now that I'm committed and monogamous, I'm still bisexual. When I'm 100 years old and no longer physically capable of having sex, I'll still be bisexual.

If I had to pick a number, I'd say I'm a Kinsey 4. I am very sexually attracted to men but never really made deep emotional connections with the men I dated and had sex with. I am both sexually and emotionally attracted to women, which is the only difference that keeps me from placing myself in the exact center of the scale.

[citybutch]

Indeed....

Bisexual people are perfectly capable of monogamy, just like straight and gay people are. Being bisexual doesn't make cheating okay.

[betenoire]

It's totally irrational and I know that now, but I really believed for a long time that everybody is bisexual. I got over it a few years ago, but there you have it.

Now the truth: I am more sexually attracted to men than I am to women. However, I am more emotionally attracted to women than I am to men. So it's complicated. It's really complicated.

I have slept with more women than men. Not a tonne more, but more. I haven't had a "relationship" with a man since I was in freaking HIGHSCHOOL, but I clearly have slept with them since then. Since adulthood all of my "steadies" have been women. Probably I'm better at having actual relationships with women than with men because I just in general find women better company. Or possibly it's just turned out that way because I know way more women than I know men.

I would never cheat. That's not to say I'm perfect - I'm not. Do I think dirty thoughts about people other than my spouse? You're damn right I do! I don't think that's bad or abnormal so long as I never -do- anything about it - and of course I wouldn't.

(By the way: I irrationally for no particular reason hate the word "pansexual". (Possibly because it has the word pan in it and I don't find that sexy at all.) I prefer the word bisexual because average people freaking know what it means, so why complicate things by not speaking in a language that people around you can understand?)

[betenoire]

The lesbians I did manage to meet at the time wanted nothing at all to do with a bisexual woman, and I didn't know any other bisexuals.

Been there, done that. In fact, my first real girlfriend was SUPER mean about the whole thing. I can't believe I stayed with that jerkface for nearly 2 years. (Okay, maybe I can. Sometimes I think I stuck it out to prove a point.)

I didn't actually have a serious, committed, monogamous relationship with another woman until I moved to Oregon and met my wife. It was such a revelation to finally meet a woman who I was attracted to who was also attracted to me and didn't think that bisexual women are all just confused, selfish disease vectors. We've been happily together and monogamous for five years, with no end in sight.

Okay now I am seriously all kittens and puppies about you and your wife. I'm -this- close to demanding a set of commemorative spoons. (I like happy people.)

I can say with confidence that I would never, ever cheat on her. If something ever did happen that resulted in one of us being unable or unwilling to fulfill the other's sexual needs, we'd discuss it and work out a resolution we both could live with (like staying together but opening up the relationship).

Which I happen to think is the grown-up approach to that sort of situation.

I also get people giving me a sympathetic look and telling me that they were bisexual, too, before they finally came all the way out of the closet and admitted they were really a lesbian.

I used to get that a lot from people who I was acquainted with (like, ran with the same circle of friends and went to the same parties but nothing more than that) if they saw me with a man. But nobody who actually knew me well has ever pulled that crap, thankfully. I think it would have really hurt me.

[citybutch]

There are ways I agree with you... kind of.

Laws are impartial. The legal thing to do in any given situation is black and white. Stealing for example is illegal... there is no difference in terms of the law that what you are doing is legal or illegal. A murderer is as much operating outside the law as someone who shoplifts. It is merely the level of punishment that will differ. Both a murderer and someone who steals is operating outside the law. What may be legal behavior may not be moral. What is moral behavior is always legal.

Ethical or moral behavior, on the other hand is far more blurred and far LESS black and white. What may be legal behavior may not (and sometimes IS not) ethical or moral behavior. Ethical/Moral behavior is behavior that we would want to be above and beyond legal behavior. For our society for some it is based on the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you... or even higher, place the needs and concerns of others above your own. This can be open to interpretation. In fact, sometimes two different can come to different solutions based on one's moral universe or moral compass.

Morality is a difficult thing to discuss really. Personal morality is by definition a personal choice. However, the reality is that if you believe yourself to be an ethical person then your response to a situation will be you doing the right or moral thing. Therefore anyone else confronted with the same situation would invariably make the same choice. To claim to not make the rules or to define morality for anyone else is just a way of not accepting this responsibility.

If it is okay for you to cheat, lie, steal or whatever under a certain set of circumstances then it is okay for the other to do the same under the same conditions. To me the measure of morality is that it is impartial.

If it is a logical right thinking choice for you in a situation, then in the same situation it is the logical right thinking choice for other reasonable people as well. Morality should be defined impartially.

The other necessary component for personal morality is equal respect for the humanity of all persons. Not equal respect for everyone in everyway. Just equal respect for the humanity of all.

[citybutch]

Sorry... you have a point... I was reading the thread post by post... sorry for any derail...

Anyone else wanting to get back on topic? I sure am.

I am bisexual. I figured out that I was bisexual in my early 20's, but I didn't actually have a romantic or sexual relationship with another woman until quite a bit later. In the years between, I made out with straight girls at party and got teased mercilessly by an acquaintance about being "bi in theory" because he'd never actually seen me with another woman. When I finally did start dating and having sex with other women, it was almost always as the bi girl in a threesome with a heterosexual couple. The lesbians I did manage to meet at the time wanted nothing at all to do with a bisexual woman, and I didn't know any other bisexuals.

I didn't actually have a serious, committed, monogamous relationship with another woman until I moved to Oregon and met my wife. It was such a revelation to finally meet a woman who I was attracted to who was also attracted to me and didn't think that bisexual women are all just confused, selfish disease vectors. We've been happily together and monogamous for five years, with no end in sight. I can say with confidence that I would never, ever cheat on her. If something ever did happen that resulted in one of us being unable or unwilling to fulfill the other's sexual needs, we'd discuss it and work out a resolution we both could live with (like staying together but opening up the relationship).

Since meeting my wife, I've heard a lot of things from friends and family. I've been told that it's great that I've finally "admitted" that I'm really a lesbian (I'm not and I haven't). A few people have been adamant that I *can't* be bisexual forever, I have to "pick one." Quite a few have assumed that we must be polyamorous because if I'm still bisexual then that means I have to have a partner of each gender at all times. I also get people giving me a sympathetic look and telling me that they were bisexual, too, before they finally came all the way out of the closet and admitted they were really a lesbian.

What I always tell these people is that just like other sexual orientations, I was born this way. I didn't choose to be bisexual and I can't choose to stop being bisexual. I was bisexual when I was 12 years old and playing with Barbies. I was bisexual when I was a sexually aware but inexperienced teenager. I was bisexual when I was exclusively dating men. Now that I'm committed and monogamous, I'm still bisexual. When I'm 100 years old and no longer physically capable of having sex, I'll still be bisexual.

If I had to pick a number, I'd say I'm a Kinsey 4. I am very sexually attracted to men but never really made deep emotional connections with the men I dated and had sex with. I am both sexually and emotionally attracted to women, which is the only difference that keeps me from placing myself in the exact center of the scale.

[sweetiefemme]

Sorry... you have a point... I was reading the thread post by post... sorry for any derail...

I am sorry too, cause I started it all.

[betenoire]

I am sorry too, cause I started it all.

You didn't start anything, I promise.

[Random]

If Caroline loses her sex drive (because she was depressed, because she had had a hysterectomy, because because because) and Jonathan decides to cheat on her (With Judith or Samuel or Blake) because his sexual needs are not being met - I certainly hope that everybody who thinks I am mean today because I say there is no set of circumstances that justifies cheating remembers to dote on Jonathan and be understanding.

I don't think you are mean Potty... I think you are right...

For me cheating IS one of the most self centered and selfish thing one can do to your partner... It was when I cheated and it was when I was cheated on...

When you cheat, you TAKE someones choice away from them... You withhold information that they need to make a decision on if they want to be with you...

Pretty well, you don't want to pay for what you want... You don't want to have to deal with the fall out of what your desires are. It's not so much that you don't want to hurt your partner.. (because if you really didn't want to hurt them, then you wouldn't cheat) It's you don't want to have to deal with the reaction that your partner is going to have from your decision.

Cheating is wrong... period... We know it when we do it and we know it when it's done to us.. If it wasn't wrong then it wouldn't feel so bad...

If your partner can't meet your needs then you need to talk and GIVE them the choice... Don't treat them like a child and you know what's best for them.... Treat them like a mother fucking adult and let them decided if they want to be with you in an open relationship or what ever arrangement works so both parties get their needs met as well as possible..

I wasn't going to post in this thread because I knew I would get on my soap box again and start preaching cause I am Judgy McJudgeson on this subject, but I couldn't let Potty think that she was alone or that she was being mean...

[SecretAgentMa'am]

It's totally irrational and I know that now, but I really believed for a long time that everybody is bisexual. I got over it a few years ago, but there you have it.

Me, too. I think most people who are bisexual go through a period of that. My personal theory is that we all need to feel like we're not alone, and so we try to convince ourselves and everyone around us that we're *really* in the majority, even though it looks like we're not.

My "almost everyone is bi" phase started after I learned about the Kinsey Scale. I figured that there were a very small percentage of people who were actually a Kinsey 0 or a Kinsey 6, and every single point between, from 0.01 to 5.99, meant that the person was bisexual, whether they were willing to admit to it or not. Hell, I thought if a woman who identified as a lesbian had ever even so much as kissed a man and not been totally grossed out by it, then that woman was actually bisexual. Thankfully, that phase was a long time ago and really short lived.

Now the truth: I am more sexually attracted to men than I am to women. However, I am more emotionally attracted to women than I am to men. So it's complicated. It's really complicated.

Me too, sometimes. I'll barely even think about men sexually for days or weeks at a time, then suddenly start practically drooling over every cute boy I pass on the street. I think I might be more attracted to men when I'm ovulating or something, but I don't have a period anymore, so I don't really know when I'm ovulating to be able to pay attention and track it. My sexual attraction to women other than my wife is less intense, but a lot more steady.

I have slept with more women than men. Not a tonne more, but more. I haven't had a "relationship" with a man since I was in freaking HIGHSCHOOL, but I clearly have slept with them since then. Since adulthood all of my "steadies" have been women. Probably I'm better at having actual relationships with women than with men because I just in general find women better company. Or possibly it's just turned out that way because I know way more women than I know men.

I'm exactly the opposite here. I've been with *way* more men. Like, literally 5 times as many. Mostly because men are so much easier. Not to have relationships with (my romantic relationships with men were almost always difficult and not very satisfying emotionally), but when I just wanted to have some no-strings sex when I was single. If I was in the mood but not in a relationship, I had no women I knew that I could call and I was never even once successful at picking someone up in a bar. I had at least half a dozen male friends, though, who I could call and they'd come right over. So easy.

I would never cheat. That's not to say I'm perfect - I'm not. Do I think dirty thoughts about people other than my spouse? You're damn right I do! I don't think that's bad or abnormal so long as I never -do- anything about it - and of course I wouldn't.

I agree. I think it's human nature to look and fantasize, and I don't see any problem with that.

(By the way: I irrationally for no particular reason hate the word "pansexual". (Possibly because it has the word pan in it and I don't find that sexy at all.) I prefer the word bisexual because average people freaking know what it means, so why complicate things by not speaking in a language that people around you can understand?)

Me too, but I have a reason. I'm not saying that this is true of everyone who IDs as pansexual, but I've heard several different explanations from different people about how it differs from bisexuality. Every explanation I've heard has been some variation on either "I'm sexually attracted to people of multiple genders, but I don't want to be associated with those dirty bisexuals" or "I'm sexually attracted to men and women, and even those weird trans people who don't actually count as men or women. See how accepting and progressive I am?" which I find to be incredibly transphobic. I've also been told that the term bisexual supports the gender binary by saying that there are only two genders. I don't think that's the case at all.

Homosexual: Attracted to those who are the same as you
Heterosexual: Attracted to those who are different from you
Bisexual: Attracted to those who are both the same and different. This could be any number of gender variations.

[betenoire]

I've also been told that the term bisexual supports the gender binary by saying that there are only two genders. I don't think that's the case at all.

Right, exactly. The "well you know there are more than two genders so that's why I am not bisexual!" partyline has always rubbed me the wrong way. Like they're explaining something to me that they presume is news to me.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Been there, done that. In fact, my first real girlfriend was SUPER mean about the whole thing. I can't believe I stayed with that jerkface for nearly 2 years. (Okay, maybe I can. Sometimes I think I stuck it out to prove a point.)

None of the women I've been with have had a problem with my bisexuality, but my first relationship with a woman was a trainwreck. In hindsight, I really can't blame her for everything, though. My first relationship with a woman was as part of a triad with a married couple. It did not work out at all well. It was only after I'd finally left them for good (after the 4th breakup, when I finally refused to get back together yet again) that it occurred to me that if her husband had to go to great lengths to "convince her that it was okay to explore her bisexuality" that she most likely didn't really have any bisexuality *to* explore. She just had a husband who really, really wanted to have a lot of threesomes.

Okay now I am seriously all kittens and puppies about you and your wife. I'm -this- close to demanding a set of commemorative spoons. (I like happy people.)

Aww. I'm seriously considering doing actual holiday cards this year, complete with a family portrait of the two of us with the dog and all the cats and the lizard. If I actually get motivated enough to do it, I'll send you one. :)

I used to get that a lot from people who I was acquainted with (like, ran with the same circle of friends and went to the same parties but nothing more than that) if they saw me with a man. But nobody who actually knew me well has ever pulled that crap, thankfully. I think it would have really hurt me.

Yeah, I never heard that from anyone that I'm really close to. Just casual acquaintances who I didn't mind not seeing again if they couldn't act right.

[betenoire]

None of the women I've been with have had a problem with my bisexuality, but my first relationship with a woman was a trainwreck. In hindsight, I really can't blame her for everything, though. My first relationship with a woman was as part of a triad with a married couple. It did not work out at all well. It was only after I'd finally left them for good (after the 4th breakup, when I finally refused to get back together yet again) that it occurred to me that if her husband had to go to great lengths to "convince her that it was okay to explore her bisexuality" that she most likely didn't really have any bisexuality *to* explore. She just had a husband who really, really wanted to have a lot of threesomes.

Oh sweet mercy, that sucks. I'm really sorry. That makes me sad/mad.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Oh sweet mercy, that sucks. I'm really sorry. That makes me sad/mad.

Me too, but mostly for her. It was really emotionally difficult for me (I was attracted to him and liked him, but I was ass over teakettle for her and constantly trying to figure out what I was doing wrong since she said she loved me but often acted like she couldn't even stand to be in the same room with me), and after I came to that realization I started to feel like I hadn't been her girlfriend so much as an accomplice in her husband's campaign of sexual coercion. That was the last time I ever had a relationship with a couple, even though I did identify as polyamorous for a couple more years after that.

[betenoire]

Me too, but mostly for her. It was really emotionally difficult for me (I was attracted to him and liked him, but I was ass over teakettle for her and constantly trying to figure out what I was doing wrong since she said she loved me but often acted like she couldn't even stand to be in the same room with me), and after I came to that realization I started to feel like I hadn't been her girlfriend so much as an accomplice in her husband's campaign of sexual coercion. That was the last time I ever had a relationship with a couple, even though I did identify as polyamorous for a couple more years after that.

*nod* absolutely. He sounds like a jerkface. I think that happens pretty frequently.

I've actually never been involved with a couple. I never wanted to be, it just always sounded a little complicated and negotiation-heavy. And I'm terrible at that sort of thing.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

*nod* absolutely. He sounds like a jerkface. I think that happens pretty frequently.

I've actually never been involved with a couple. I never wanted to be, it just always sounded a little complicated and negotiation-heavy. And I'm terrible at that sort of thing.

It was very much that. At one point, we had a huge dry erase calendar on their fridge to schedule when I was allowed to call, and when I would see either of them, and when they were going to have "primary couple time" during which I was not allowed to call or email or text either of them for any reason, and when I was supposed to get individual dates with each of them (which were almost always cancelled at the last minute), and when we were all supposed to have "stress-free alone time" which meant that she wanted time to herself during which she wasn't thinking about what he and I might be doing together without her.

And just about every time I saw one or both of them, I'd hear about another talk they'd had about our relationship when I wasn't there, and about the new rules they'd implemented without my input, which I was expected to follow. I'm really disgusted with myself now for putting up with it for as long as I did.

[betenoire]

I'm really disgusted with myself now for putting up with it for as long as I did.

I don't think you need to be disgusted with yourself, honestly. I mean live and learn I guess. I don't know how old you were then (or how old you are now, now that I think about it) but I do know when we're younger it's harder to draw lines and we tend to be less aware of what we deserve.

[Cin]

There are ways I agree with you... kind of.

Laws are impartial. The legal thing to do in any given situation is black and white. Stealing for example is illegal... there is no difference in terms of the law that what you are doing is legal or illegal. A murderer is as much operating outside the law as someone who shoplifts. It is merely the level of punishment that will differ. Both a murderer and someone who steals is operating outside the law. What may be legal behavior may not be moral. What is moral behavior is always legal.

Ethical or moral behavior, on the other hand is far more blurred and far LESS black and white. What may be legal behavior may not (and sometimes IS not) ethical or moral behavior. Ethical/Moral behavior is behavior that we would want to be above and beyond legal behavior. For our society for some it is based on the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you... or even higher, place the needs and concerns of others above your own. This can be open to interpretation. In fact, sometimes two different can come to different solutions based on one's moral universe or moral compass.

I agree with you to a point.

Laws may be impartial but often, quite often, their implementation is not.

So I guess we could do with a bit more equity on that front.

You said, “What may be legal behavior may not be moral. What is moral behavior is always legal.” How can that be? If you have legal behavior that is not moral then anyone engaging in that legal behavior is engaging in behavior that is immoral. Conversely if they refuse to engage in that legal behavior that is immoral then their behavior is illegal while being moral.

But even if you are only referring to the sometimes immoral behavior of some in the legal profession when you say legal behavior may not be moral, I’m still not sure that moral behavior is always legal. Laws are laws but they are not always moral. Hence disobeying them may be unlawful but not necessarily immoral. As a matter of fact I would go so far as to say in some cases disobeying certain laws is the only moral course of action. Certainly we can find historical precedent for this. I’m also equally sure with little effort we can find immoral laws on the books right now. Isn’t obeying immoral laws both legal and immoral? While disobeying them is both illegal and moral?

I suppose we can also look at motivation for certain crimes. Murder can never be the ethical choice, except when it is. And I guess we can all come up with scenarios where killing someone whose continued life would mean terrible things for so many is worth, at least, contemplating this moral dilemma. Stealing is illegal and someone who steals is operating outside the law, but when you need to feed your family what can you do. Who is morally bankrupt, the person who steals to feed his children or the society who promotes an ideology that would create situations where a human being must decide between becoming a criminal or allowing his children to go hungry?

I really believe that if the measuring stick a person uses to judge their actions and choices is equity, meaning the action or choice you are making is one you would be comfortable with everyone and anyone choosing, then you will most likely make a choice that has equal respect for the humanity of all.

However, I see quite clearly that my post has fallen far from the topic of this thread and I pledge that my next post here will be about bisexuality exclusively. I mean it will be about bisexuality only. My experience with it I mean.

[Cin]

I lived with a women for six years who identified as bisexual. She always said that she loved the person and not the gender. She was attracted to both men and women, although her attraction surrounding women was restricted to those with a masculine presentation. For her, it was simply about whoever she fell in love with. She preferred monogamy and did not need both men and women in her life sexually at the same time.

She left me for a man. This threw me. It also forced me to confront some deep-seated issues. I became a better person because of that experience. Then she became involved with another woman. Threw me again she did. She married that woman and is still with her today. But when she went back with a woman I discovered some more issues I needed to work through. Apparently I have a number of issues. Fortunately she provided me with a unique opportunity to examine some deep-seated prejudices. I had to decide if I was ready to move past some of my less than useful beliefs as well as some of the biases that I had not been completely aware I carried. I did grow a lot because of this experience.

I’m not saying that involvement with someone who is bisexual will afford you an opportunity to grow as a person. Although it will, as will any relationship. I’m just saying I am grateful for the experience I had with this person. I found her to be one of the most honorable people I ever met. Her bisexuality was just a feature of who she was, like being a femme, or like her blonde hair and her blue eyes, or her honesty.

On another note, I have no problem with negotiated poly or open relationships. I have been involved in both in my life. But I would have a big problem if an open or poly relationship was being, for lack of a better word, DONE to me without my knowledge. It hurts just thinking about it.

[*Anya*]

Honor and integrity are the opposite of cheating or dishonesty.

Regardless of the sex/gender/identity/orientation, for me, the golden rule applies.

Tell me what you need, where your head and heart are at and allow me the choice to decide if I can live with it and accept it. If we can not negotiate or are in completely different places, I need to be given the choice to stay or to go.

For my soul and ability to live with myself (or with another), it really is just that simple. I am flexible about virtually everything in my life. Relationships to work, must have that as a core.

Honesty and truth about fidelity are not negotiable. That is a value of mine that I will never apologize for.

[imperfect_cupcake]

interesting question. I named myself bisexual from the age of 14 until the age of 27. previously, I had been sexually active with both sexes since I was about 10 (not full on fucking, I mean sexual).

Bisexuality, to me, in my barb self-naming universe, means being able to have long term relationships and to be in love with two or more sexes.

Being able to love and romantically realate only one sex, but have sex with two, to me is not bisexuality. That's heteroflexible or homoflexible. A lot of people are that way.

When I first ID'd as a dyke, I was told, quite bluntly, I was a "lesbian ID'd bisexual" and I was "a dime a dozen" (cheap and common, that's me! :D) which hurt, because it the close friend who had been telling me for about 5 years that I wasn't a bi, I was a dyke. I think she expected me to "go butch" |(she said she always saw me as a butch dyke wanting to break free. well, I wish I had flipper and wings too. oh well.) and when I went femtastic, she was pissed off.

I don't see it as a sex thing. that's a different classification in my head. people can be hetero or homo flexible to varying degrees. depends on how flexible you are lol. But bisexuality - in my dictionary - involves *presently* as in, right now, havign the capacity or capability to fall in love with men or women. I don't care if they could 25 years ago, many people's sexuality is not for life, many people's shift over time (NOT EVERYONES m'kay? Mine did. I was never latently lesbian. I fell in love - head over heels with men and women. Now I don't think I could if my life depended on it. And I have zero interest in men's willies except as an aesthetic in porn. But not in real life, ta - only the kind inhabited by dyke dick).

Many of my mates were shades of heteroflexible, and some genuinely bisexual. A few were homoflexible on the less flexible end of that scale (they once in a very blue moon had sex with a gay male friend or they liked to strap on and fuck men for the odd kink thrill in a kinkclub)

I personally like the divisions between homo/heteroflexible and bisexual. I personally believe it give far more people room and credit.

[MsMerrick]

i
Bisexuality, to me, in my barb self-naming universe, means being able to have long term relationships and to be in love with two or more sexes.

Being able to love and romantically realate only one sex, but have sex with two, to me is not bisexuality. That's heteroflexible or homoflexible. A lot of people are that way.

................................................

I don't see it as a sex thing. that's a different classification in my head. people can be hetero or homo flexible to varying degrees. depends on how flexible you are lol. But bisexuality - in my dictionary - involves *presently* as in, right now, havign the capacity or capability to fall in love with men or women. I don't care if they could 25 years ago, many people's sexuality is not for life, many people's shift over time (NOT EVERYONES m'kay? Mine did. I was never latently lesbian. I fell in love - head over heels with men and women. Now I don't think I could if my life depended on it. And I have zero interest in men's willies except as an aesthetic in porn. But not in real life, ta - only the kind inhabited by dyke dick).

Many of my mates were shades of heteroflexible, and some genuinely bisexual. A few were homoflexible on the less flexible end of that scale (they once in a very blue moon had sex with a gay male friend or they liked to strap on and fuck men for the odd kink thrill in a kinkclub)

I personally like the divisions between homo/heteroflexible and bisexual. I personally believe it give far more people room and credit.
Thank you :) I think you may have been the only person who actually answered/gave your opinion , with detail and specificity, my original question ! Thanks !
I don't know if I agree or not, but you certainly gave me some ideas to chew on ...Not a big shock there..

[MsMerrick]

Btw, I didn't mean or want to minimize all of you, who posted your lives and tales, I did enjoy them all ; )

[Scrappy L'il Southpaw]

I will generally not discuss that I identify as bisexual because it seems to be such a fear factor in the lesbian community. My first girl friend flipped out when I shared with her that I identified as bi. Over the next year, any challenges in our relationship she would attribute to her fear of my identifying as bi. Including her schlepping off to a hotel room with her ex-girlfriend. Somehow that had to do with my identification...Right!

I'll share with you what I shared with her years ago and what I still stand by.
For me, bisexual means I'm attracted to you the person. Your gender and your genitals don't matter to me. If you stir my heart and tickle my fancy, you are the one for me. I am monogamous. Period. If I'm with you, I'm with you. I'm not going to fancy someone different for sex and cheat because I have an urge for a different gender.

May sound a little simplistic. There are enough other complications in relationships and the world. This is just how I feel about it.

All that being said, I've dated only women the last 5 years. I've had a couple of guy attractions but nothing driving or that I wanted to act upon.

That's me.

[AlexHunter]

I'm not bisexual, but... the majority of the women I've dated have been. I had a lesbian friend ask me, "Why do you bark up the bi tree so often?" Well, honestly, it's because - apart from the B-F community - the women who dig me and are amendable to what I like in the bedroom usually happen to swing that way. A lot of self-identified lesbians (again, not in this community, just in general) are not so keen on my cock-centric sexuality. Like many genderqueer, transgendered, and male ID'd butches, I bind, pack, and get read as a guy on a regular basis.

Derailed tangents aside:

"Being able to love and romantically relate only one sex, but have sex with two, to me is not bisexuality. That's heteroflexible or homoflexible. A lot of people are that way."

I agree with that one. In fact, I've said that myself for years.

I had a bisexual ex who told me she felt compelled to make up her mind for years. This caused her to have both a straight phase and a gay phase. She eventually "gave up" and realized she could be happy with either. She had friends who had seen her with both sexes, yet still would say things like, "Oh, so you're straight now" if she dated a man or, "Oh, so you're gay now" if she dated a woman.

When she told her parents, they said, "Oh, honey, it's just a phase. Everyone is bisexual. Everyone! That doesn't mean you're actually that way! Just focus on your attraction to men and you will be fine."

She brought me home and they didn't know what to think. :D

[Sassy]

I will generally not discuss that I identify as bisexual because it seems to be such a fear factor in the lesbian community............ My first girl friend flipped out when I shared with her that I identified as bi...............Over the next year, any challenges in our relationship she would attribute to her fear of my identifying as bi.

Thank you for sharing this.

[Jett]

Wow, I talked up a storm here, my apoligies, but damn I apparent needed to rant. ;)
I think some people find bisexual a stepping stone on the way to identifying as lesbian or gay... as to ease the climb... I on the other hand found the steps ended with bisexual. I've never identified as totally straight but I have previously identified as a lesbian, because shit, I must be, I'd been in a relationship with a woman for a decade and a half. It's only on my years long my path of searching for authentic self, retrospectively looking at my feelings of the my youth... honestly looking, untainted by learned prejudices, mass mentalities, have I admitted to something I'd criticized in the past. I enjoy the company and intimate companionship of both sexes fairly equally. If I were to find myself again single, (which as an aside I don't see as I'm happily coupled with a woman and have been for some time) I could in no way say that I would not be with a man, or a woman... I think I would be with whoever stole my heart and who loved me as I loved them regardless of whats between there legs. And it's been proven to me either sex is quite capable of attracting my attention.

I will say men have hurt me more, personally. I will also admit to having been raped, but having this happen to you doesn't change your sexual orientation. It doesn't mean all men are bad or evil, although it skewed my thinking and fucked me up for some time I was attracted to men and woman before it happened and am still even though I admit I've had to really work through some deeper issues with that. And to be fair some woman have fucked me up too...

All this said, never before has it been so difficult to come out about something as it has about being bisexual. I mean why subject oneself to the bullshit stereotypes, to the alienation from the gay community in which you've built love and lifelong friendships? The straight community can be just as bad... some seem to take it as meaning your a sex nymph. I mean YES I'm bisexual but no it does not mean I'm attracted to you... I'm in a monogamous relationship... then it's like NO I do not want a threesome... if I did find myself single again I realize most lesbians will not date me because I'm bisexual, and some men may not trust me, or worse think I'm a ticket to a peep show... like blah fuck it... why ever tell anyone as long as I live???

After the last national coming out day, and a LOT of thinking, I come out publicly only because of those exact stupid stereotypes. Cause it really pisses me off to have anyone think I'm "confused" or "straddling a fence for the fun of it" or that I'm "more likely to cheat". I will speak out and claim it proudly because I have PRIDE, I want to truth about it all to be visible, and that forces me to make myself visible in hopes of educating people as to what bisexuality is and what bisexuality is not. Last I come out because I have faith in people, I have faith in my friends, and if someday someone doesn't want to be with me just because I'm bisexual I don't want to be with them either, because frankly they are utterly stupid...

[LexiLove]

When I first became sexual, I identified as bisexual..

I was attracted to a small percentage of women, and they scared the HELL out of me.. They generally were in the military, had short hair, and wore guys clothes.. They made my palms sweat and made me nervous and self aware in a way that I had never been before... I was actually aware of my skin, body...

I had absolutly no idea what to do with them.. I couldn't talk to them, look them in the eye... But I was aware...

Guys, I knew what to do with... From my first experience, I knew how to drive them insane... Knew my power and used it... I had no problem playing with them, talking to them, teasing them... I did have a problem connecting emotionally with them... It was about sex and power... There was tenderness, but that was not the norm..

So I called myself bisexual... Because of this awareness for a certain type of woman.. (I had no word/lable/knowledge of anything. My *gay* world was the world of the gay man...) I knew I couldn't be straight.

Fast forward 15 yrs later... A failed marriage, a couple flirtations, and I came out to myself... Gay.. Queer...


Yes. I understand this very well.

[Livepoetry66]

I identify as Bi. I have been in long term monogamous relationships with females, males, butches, ftm's and mtf's. I have come to the conclusion that people are people. To me we are all walking, talking bags of hormones subject to the stimulation life hands us from birth to death. I could go into the nature/nurture debate, genetic debate, social/peer circle, media nutrition/lifestyle and etc but why? I don't want drama nor do I want debate. I just want someone who gets me, someone I get. Not about sex for me. I want a good fit like a comfortable pair of slippers, I want to be able to laugh with someone, eat in front of someone..just be myself. All the other things will fall into place regardless of how they might identify, including trust. If there is chemistry..we'll feel it. If we have an intellectual connection..we'll talk about it.

Perhaps one could say I want it all, yes! if all means happiness, not just sex (strap on or bio) If someone I am dating does not trust me when I say I am happy with that person then it is not my issue. Maybe there is past hurt and trauma with someone whom could not be trusted in a committed relationship. To me being Bi is just as natural as someone who is gay or straight, there was no preference or choosing, it is just me and it always has been.:glasses:

[D Phryxus]

I identify as Bisexual. By this I mean that I am attracted to both men and women.

I think I have always been this way but growing up in a very hetero household I was always more comfortable flirting with and dating guys. I simply didn't know how to 1. tell if another woman was interest in girls or 2. how to figure out if she might be interested in me.
In fact, I still have issues with this.
I wasn't actually able to act on my interest in women until after I was married, ironically. My husband helped me out a lot, having been in poly relationships with bi women before. You could say he is my best wingman haha.

I can genuinely say I enjoy being in a romantic relationship with the few women I have dated as much as I enjoy the romance between my husband and I . I also equally enjoy sex with women as much as with men. Each person is different of course. Some are better than others, but that's part of the experience.

[Daniela]

I've just recently started thinking of myself as bisexual but I'm currently married to a man (bio-male). I'm definitely not looking to start anything with a woman because I'm completely against cheating. But I admit that I definitely have an attraction to very masculine-of-center women. Looking back, I realize that I've always been attracted to both men and "masculine" women, although I've never been attracted to anyone that presents in a traditionally feminine way.

[Tuff Stuff]

I don't know.I do know that I have these mad crazy affairs with bio-man every 15 years apart.I had my first sexual experience with a man at age 11,around that time I also had my first sexual encounter with a woman.I have never been divided who I should have a relationship with,its always been with women.I guess my clit doesn't descriminate.Never been married,never had children.

Hey,why am I telling you this? :weedsmoke: (i must be high)

Brings a song to mind...Bluebeard by The Cocteau Twins

Did i mention I like my men with beards..oh yes

[Shystonefem]

To me, bo-sexual is a person with a free spirit that doesn't acknowledge physical boundaries. Maybe someone on a higher spiritual level? Maybe not.

Personally, I would not date a bi-sexual only because I have seen, so many times, that some use their bi-sexuality as permission to cheat. I am not saying everyone does that but I am not willing to put my heart on the line (or my body) with someone who could use the bi-sexual label to cheat.

Also, I can't even imagine a bi-sexual butch. Lol... Although they may be out there.

Just my thoughts and, please, understand that I am, in no way, putting anyone's lifestyle down. To each hys or her own.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Also, I can't even imagine a bi-sexual butch. Lol... Although they may be out there


You don't have to, imagine it that is. Bi sexual butch peoples exist just as much as bi sexual Femmes, Transguys, Men, Women etc. They're not immune to it nor does it make them an oddity...

I feel that for people it's hard to imagine something because they're afraid of the truth, or want to keep people in certain pegs because it doesn't disrupt one's comfort level...


Like you said, to each their own!

[puddin']

"let's marvin gaye and get it on..."

[Tuff Stuff]

*snort*

I love that song..

[Kätzchen]

I identify as Bi. I have been in long term monogamous relationships with females, males, butches, ftm's and mtf's. I have come to the conclusion that people are people. To me we are all walking, talking bags of hormones subject to the stimulation life hands us from birth to death. I could go into the nature/nurture debate, genetic debate, social/peer circle, media nutrition/lifestyle and etc but why? I don't want drama nor do I want debate. I just want someone who gets me, someone I get. Not about sex for me. I want a good fit like a comfortable pair of slippers, I want to be able to laugh with someone, eat in front of someone..just be myself. All the other things will fall into place regardless of how they might identify, including trust. If there is chemistry..we'll feel it. If we have an intellectual connection..we'll talk about it.

Perhaps one could say I want it all, yes! if all means happiness, not just sex (strap on or bio) If someone I am dating does not trust me when I say I am happy with that person then it is not my issue. Maybe there is past hurt and trauma with someone whom could not be trusted in a committed relationship. To me being Bi is just as natural as someone who is gay or straight, there was no preference or choosing, it is just me and it always has been.:glasses:

I just want to say that your idea of keeping it simple, is simply beautiful. The way you describe your identity, as an bisexual, is such a breath of fresh air.

I have partnered with those who identify on the male side of the identity spectrum. And, each time I've either dated or partnered with those particular individuals, it was because I too like to keep it simple. Feeling entirely comfortable with someone is a really big deal in my world. When you said that you wanted the relationship to feel like a good fitting pair of slippers, that you wanted someone who totally gets you and vice versa, then I definitely resonate deeply with that point of view because my sexual identity is not up for debate, nor is theirs. I've never been public about it before but bisexuality is a part of my identity.

What matters most to me is how well we fit together (full stop).

Thanks for painting an articulate picture about what bisexuality means to you. :bouquet:

[AishasWrath]

It means that gender isn't as much of a factor in whether I'm attracted to someone else, compared to other things about them.

[storyspinner70]

This is something that is VERY near and dear to me, and something I've dealt with all my life. I am bi. Probably actually pan, because I can't see myself not being attracted to someone because they are transitioning or do not identify as a certain gender. I am currently rabidly in love with a woman, and do not see that changing at any point in the future.

So, what does being bi mean to me? It means I have to listen to people spout the most ridiculous nonsense I've ever heard. It means people feel that I owe them an explanation as to why I have the NERVE to be attracted to more than one sex. It means I have to sit here and read about how I'm just confused, how I'm really straight or I'm really lez but just haven't got the guts yet to make a decision. It means I have to deal with constant harassment and abuse from the LGBT community that should have my back more than anyone else. It means I have to listen to men cackle and ask for a threesome while I listen to lesbians talk about how they could NEVER date a bisexual like we are the worst people there could possibly be on the face of the earth. You have no idea how much I've cried in my life because of shit like that, and how I'm near tears now because I remember how worthless that casual dismissal used to make me feel. Like, "Who cares what kind of person you are? One word makes you nothing to me."

It means I probably shouldn't have stepped foot on this thread, because I get enraged at injustice and people who feel the need to tell me that because my heart and mind and soul are open to anyone who is worthy of my time and love that there is somehow something wrong with how I choose to live my life. And no, I'm not aiming this entirely at people on this site or this thread, but some of you...some of you are here spouting exactly the misunderstanding and deliberate, willful discrimination I deal with every single day of my life.

This is what being bisexual means to me. My heart and life and arms are open for anyone who is smart enough, sexy enough, funny enough, and clever enough to catch my attention. I am not only attracted to butch women, like they're some kind of replacement for the men I "really" want. In fact, the majority of the women I loved have been femme. And no, I'm not secretly lesbian and trying to hide it, either. In fact, I'm pretty much running about 50/50 with the gender of people I have loved in my life.

My butch is everything to me. She is not a replacement for a man in my life. She is not an experiment. She is not someone to keep me occupied until a man comes along. She is, and will always be, my world. And no, it's not that I have zero interest in men anymore. I'm not miraculously gay now. But what I am is completely in love and fiercely dedicated to the love of my life - my butch.

And yes, I get infuriated at the fact people dare to make assumptions about me and what I feel and what makes me happy. If all goes like I want it to, I will never have another lover, and I'll be just fine with that. I won't miss a man or start pining after them. I've seen plenty I thought were gorgeous or sexy in the three years I've been with my butch, and I've never once been dissatisfied with my life or my lover.

That is what being bi means to me: a life of love, happiness, discrimination, pain and anger.

[AishasWrath]

You don't have to, imagine it that is. Bi sexual butch peoples exist just as much as bi sexual Femmes, Transguys, Men, Women etc. They're not immune to it nor does it make them an oddity...

I feel that for people it's hard to imagine something because they're afraid of the truth, or want to keep people in certain pegs because it doesn't disrupt one's comfort level...


Like you said, to each their own!

This is absolutely true (and I am a bisexual butch.) I can't imagine how anyone can't imagine a bisexual butch. How does one preclude the other?

Getting a little shirty here--I got fed up with being pressured to feminize myself for some nameless schroedinger's boyfriend a long, long time ago. Schroedinger can go keep his boyfriend, I'm not into people who want me for something I'm not. It didn't mean I was required to give up all attraction to men.

(I'll admit, being stone butch with guys is...very difficult most of the time because they tend to not understand, it bothers a lot of them, they tend to wheedle and get upset and need me to prove in a million different ways that I mean what I say and I'm not damaged/I don't hate them.)

[Beast Lee]

I met a guy once who said " I think bisexual people are just confused, no offense." I honestly replied " I'm not offended, I think that straight and gay people are missing out on half the fun." Both sexes have amazing qualities that the other is lacking (except for me).

[Bel]

Since the 80s and popularized in the 90s, bisexuality has been defined by various bisexual communities as "attraction to more than one gender." This is the definition that has endured. Robyn Ochs, a bisexual activist, has also expanded on that to include "not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.” Which is wonderful!

Like all the other letters in LGBT/QUILTBAG, the B is a community term. There are many ways to be bisexual (bi/pan/omni/polysexual/ace, etc) but the foundation of our orientation moves bilaterally along the sexuality spectrum without settling on a specific point of that spectrum. Just like the L in LGBT does not signify what type of lesbian one is (femme? butch?), the B does not specify what type of bisexual one is.

It's a wonderfully open category.

If anyone wants to discuss more about this, I'm game.

I've been bi my whole life, and experienced "attraction to more than one gender" for decades without ever having been with a AMAB person (which eventually happened.) Because it's about attraction to more than one gender, it doesn't mean that bisexual people attach gender to biology—bisexual spaces that I've been to over the years have consistently practiced this distinction. And those that don't quickly learn....

It's about attraction and potential, not necessarily sex.

And hello to all, this is my first post after visiting on-and-mostly off since 2012!

[indigo]

"Bisexual", it's the expression that I currently use when coming out to my friends and family, which is a step by step process. Still, I can't yet wrap my mind around why i am not really confortable with this term.

[Bel]

"Bisexual", it's the expression that I currently use when coming out to my friends and family, which is a step by step process. Still, I can't yet wrap my mind around why i am not really confortable with this term.

Hi Indigo!
Well, we're all socialized to have zero pride regarding the term 'bisexual'. All we mostly hear outside of bi circles, is negative and damaging. As long as you are accepting who you are on your own terms, that's more important than any label, of course. But labels are only as useful as the community they make/gather...so I hope you can find some sources and spaces of bisexual solidarity that make you feel great about what bi consciousness stands for today!

And I hear you on the step-by-step process!

[Soft*Silver]

I am a bio female femme who is married to a bio male who identifies as a woman privately. He (the pronoun he prefers at the moment) is a submissive femme at home. And other places. (But doesnt present 24/7 everywhere)

I qualify as bisexual. So does he as he enjoys all genders like I do. We have an open agreement that we can have other indulgences (sex) in our lives if we chose and would consider a poly marriage if the right person was found.

I have only been attracted to butch women. I have dated trans men too. And lived asexually for awhile. I just dont have an attraction to other femme women except my husband Go figure this all out!!

So all that sounds very complicated. But its not. Or it shouldnt be. I am getting really tired of the many many labels I have to "qualify" myself under. (I cant even buy a pride flag now without it adding race (brown and black) to it, when its suppose to be about orientation, not race. I am gypsy. Where is my stripe in our flag?)

[nycfem]

Soft*Silver, this post was reported as bordering on racism. Embracing an intersectional view of oppression is not something everyone believes in, but please if you are going to make a point that you want separate space for pure LGBT pride, don't drag another traditionally oppressed identity that is not one of your own under the bus. Please try and keep in mind how someone of the identity you singled out as not wanting on your pride flag might feel reading it. We want everyone on this site to feel 100% welcome and protected. We don't always realize how our words might come across, and I simply ask that for future posts, you take this into consideration. Thank you.

I am getting really tired of the many many labels I have to "qualify" myself under. (I cant even buy a pride flag now without it adding race (brown and black) to it, when its suppose to be about orientation, not race. I am gypsy. Where is my stripe in our flag?)

[indigo]

Hi Indigo!
Well, we're all socialized to have zero pride regarding the term 'bisexual'. All we mostly hear outside of bi circles, is negative and damaging. As long as you are accepting who you are on your own terms, that's more important than any label, of course. But labels are only as useful as the community they make/gather...so I hope you can find some sources and spaces of bisexual solidarity that make you feel great about what bi consciousness stands for today!

And I hear you on the step-by-step process!

But why is that so? I can't yet draw on broad experiences as I am like "in the making" with this part of my identity. I have lesbian friends who have absolutely no problem with bisexual women/ people - and also, why should they? Yet one of them told me that for some this is problematic. For me this term somehow fits because I had relationships with men and this didn't feel wrong but at the same time it was not "it", so to speak, and yeah I was always into women as far as I can remember, at least since my teenage-hood. Then, doesn't the term bi-sexual indicate the dichotomy of sexes - a notion that I find questionable in many ways.

[*Anya*]

But why is that so? I can't yet draw on broad experiences as I am like "in the making" with this part of my identity. I have lesbian friends who have absolutely no problem with bisexual women/ people - and also, why should they? Yet one of them told me that for some this is problematic. For me this term somehow fits because I had relationships with men and this didn't feel wrong but at the same time it was not "it", so to speak, and yeah I was always into women as far as I can remember, at least since my teenage-hood. Then, doesn't the term bi-sexual indicate the dichotomy of sexes - a notion that I find questionable in many ways.

I am only one lesbian, so take my perspective as non-representative of the entire lesbian community!

For me, I started my journey as a straight woman, not in touch with my true sexual orientation.

Looking back, as a kid, it was always there but I didn't know what "it" was. I played house with my little friends but the femme that I am was always the husband or dad. I played doctor with the little girls and got dragged home by my mother after literally being naked in the back of an abandoned car (at about 8 yrs old) with my girlfriend, feeling each other...in her back yard. I saw my first butch at 16 and my stomach dropped out but my straight friends whispered she was bad news but I was fascinated.

I kissed my first boy at 13 and he was my boyfriend. I had sex at 16 with my next boyfriend but wasn't crazy about it. I was with him until my next boyfriend that I married at 18 to escape my parents. At 21 I had sex with my female best friend but truly panicked. At some level, I knew what it meant for me. I would have to cross the homosexual bridge and I knew that I would lose my (tenuous) family. I had my first baby at 19 and was pregnant again at 20.

This was the 70's when swinging was a big deal, sexuality was more out of the closet and I knew that everyone in my life (except parents) would think that it was "cool" for me to say I was bisexual.

For a long time, it felt right to me but then, I had to acknowledge to myself, that it was a safe way to keep one foot in the heterosexual camp and one foot in the homosexual camp because I was so scared.

I wasn't trying to fool anyone except maybe myself. I had relationships with men and women for years after my teenage, doomed-to-end marriage ended.

This went on until fell I head over heels fell in love with my best friend and she with me. We both were dating each other and dating men until we realized that we really were gay.

It was terrifying for both of us. I feared losing my children and I did lose my parents (that I never really had anyway) and my two brothers were not about to make any kind of stand in support of me so I really lost them, too.

My first girl-friend still had attraction for and to men. It scared me. Maybe it is internalized homophobia, to worry that heterosexual privilege would be a bigger draw than to live life as a lesbian but I don't think that many would disagree that heterosexuality is in many ways a more accepted life than a homosexual life.

It is the reality of our world. It is the fear that I felt back then. I can't speak for other lesbians but perhaps they have some of the same fears of losing a love for the same reason. I place no blame, it is what it is. We all have our fears.

Once I made my peace with who I really was and then met my long-term ex, I never did look back. I could see that I truly was a lesbian and that it fit me like a glove.

I don't hate, fear or dislike bisexual people any more than I do trans folk.

My journey is mine, as is yours.

None of us know where we will wind up in when we start that journey in the beginning.

I do believe that sexuality is a continuum. I do believe that some of us are bisexual in the same way some of us are lesbian, gay, trans or genderqueer. I don't think any of us are any better or worse than the other. By the same token, nor do I want anyone to feel that being a lesbian is "less than" or something to fear or to be afraid that someone would think that they were a lesbian.

Sometimes, I feel badly when I hear or read that folks want to emphasize that they are not lesbians. It makes me think that they feel it is something not ok to be. Maybe we all want to not be misidentified because it was a hard journey to arrive where we are. I can accept that. We are all human.

We all have to look in in the mirror at some point and own who we really are.

Our sexuality is our own.

People that live in fear have their own journey. I am glad that I am not afraid anymore.

[Bel]

But why is that so? I can't yet draw on broad experiences as I am like "in the making" with this part of my identity. I have lesbian friends who have absolutely no problem with bisexual women/ people - and also, why should they? Yet one of them told me that for some this is problematic. For me this term somehow fits because I had relationships with men and this didn't feel wrong but at the same time it was not "it", so to speak, and yeah I was always into women as far as I can remember, at least since my teenage-hood. Then, doesn't the term bi-sexual indicate the dichotomy of sexes - a notion that I find questionable in many ways.

Hi again, Indigo!
It's true, some lesbians have serious problems with bi women, and it's very unfortunate. Why? Because bisexuals are seen as either "not really out"/closeted, indecisive, untrustworthy, sexually insatiable, upholding the patriarchy...and oh, transphobic. There are definitely bi transphobes out there in the world (bi trans folks in safer bi spaces often speak of that) but... that's an individual bigotry, not how bis define our bisexuality as a spectrum or culture. Back to your point—people OUTSIDE bi communities insist that the bi in bisexuality means two and that means bi people believe in only two genders and therefore, we're transphobic. (Nevermind that some trans folks actually *do* ID as male or female, SIGH) But.. the way we use and define bisexuality today actually comes from Kinsey and Kinsey's definition was defined as BOTH, not two, and BOTH WAYS as in BILATERAL, not "two". Kinsey defined bisexuality as an identity that moved bilaterally across the spectrum/scale (which is not perfect...) without settling on one single point. So, bisexuality is an umbrella term encompassing all these ways of moving bilaterally along that spectrum or around it.

All this to say: not even Kinsey believed in the existence of two genders. But bi people are easy targets...and most of the time.. we're battling perceptions that we don't even get to define.

[cathexis]

Was bi-sexual throughout my teen years all the way up to my 30s. It felt like I was stuck in a very isolated middle of the road. Straights didn't want me around as I was queer, but lesbians rejected me claiming that I wasn't a "real lesbian." Also, it was denied that bisexual womyn were womon identified womyn.

For all the womon accepting Lesbian Separatists in the lesbian community, there was a lot of judgment against womyn who loved differently. At least back in the late '70s-mid '80s, The Seps verbalized acceptance of other womyn, but did not always practice it.

We were thought of as traitors to the cause.

[indigo]

Was bi-sexual throughout my teen years all the way up to my 30s. It felt like I was stuck in a very isolated middle of the road. Straights didn't want me around as I was queer, but lesbians rejected me claiming that I wasn't a "real lesbian." Also, it was denied that bisexual womyn were womon identified womyn.

For all the womon accepting Lesbian Separatists in the lesbian community, there was a lot of judgment against womyn who loved differently. At least back in the late '70s-mid '80s, The Seps verbalized acceptance of other womyn, but did not always practice it.

We were thought of as traitors to the cause.

Damn, that's harsh :( Actually, I guess there are still quite some borders in my country between the communities of lesbians and bi-sexuals/ inter/ trans; but there is on the other hand a lot in motion - so I hope for a more inclusive atmosphere in the future.

[Kätzchen]

***** bump bump bump *****

There's a recent documentary that's been released about Whitney Houston and Robyn Crawford which explores bisexuality..... And social repercussions that often accompany this particular sexual identity (doc on the Showtime cable channel network: Free To Be Me).

I know what it's like to rise to the challenge of social stigma that often comes with this identification .

I haven't watched the documentary yet, so I can't give any sort of recommendation about neutrality or other objective presentation of bisexuality.

But it's nice to know that our little slice of life gets some form of exposure in film.

[homoe]

***** bump bump bump *****

There's a recent documentary that's been released about Whitney Houston and Robyn Crawford which explores bisexuality..... And social repercussions that often accompany this particular sexual identity (doc on the Showtime cable channel network: Free To Be Me).

I know what it's like to rise to the challenge of social stigma that often comes with this identification .

I haven't watched the documentary yet, so I can't give any sort of recommendation about neutrality or other objective presentation of bisexuality.

But it's nice to know that our little slice of life gets some form of exposure in film.

I've seen this documentary twice actually so I feel the need to put my 2 cents worth in! I wouldn't say it's about her being bi-sexual but I am thrilled that the movie does go into more depth that any other that has ever been done about Whitney Houston! I also like how the movie isn't really a "downer".
It focused on a lot of the positive early stuff.

I can't recommendation enough! :hangloose:

[Kätzchen]

I've seen this documentary twice actually so I feel the need to put my 2 cents worth in! I wouldn't say it's about her being bi-sexual but I am thrilled that the movie does go into more depth that any other that has ever been done about Whitney Houston! I also like how movie wasn't really a "downer".
It focused on a lot of the positives early stuff IMHO

I can't recommendation enough! :hangloose:

Sounds good, homoe! Glad to hear it's an positive account of her life....that's even better, imho. Thank you! :rrose: :balloon:

[Bel]

I've seen this documentary twice actually so I feel the need to put my 2 cents worth in! I wouldn't say it's about her being bi-sexual but I am thrilled that the movie does go into more depth that any other that has ever been done about Whitney Houston! I also like how the movie isn't really a "downer".
It focused on a lot of the positive early stuff.

I can't recommendation enough! :hangloose:

It's definitely not about Whitney's bisexuality, but as Bobby Brown says—wait, does anyone actually BELIEVE anything Bobby Brown says?!—Whitney was "probably bisexual." Actually, one of Whitney's back-up singers also says this—the woman with the necklace with circles and matching earrings. It's interesting that the most loyal to Whitney is... Robyn Crawford.

After seeing the movie I wished Whitney didn't have to choose between her family's approval and Robyn. It's sad that when Robyn leaves and refuses to participate in the chaos around Whitney, Whitney dives further into helplessness.

It's a sad but real movie, and yes, I also cannot recommend it enough as well!

That Scottish body guard though. I can't believe he was the only one who dared to try and help.

[homoe]

I cringed when they showed the clip from Oprah and Whitney's mother!

The clip where Oprah asks if it would bother her if Whitney was gay and she responses in the affirmative...don't even get me started :|

[Kätzchen]

For those who identify as bisexual, here's an trusted organization that offers resources for building community, counseling, opportunities to represent our sector and become an important ally to others in the greater LGBTQ community; BiNet USA .

BiNet USA is the longest running organization committed to educating, organizing and offering services or opportunities to be of service in personal or political ways, which strengthens the Bi-community locally or nationally.

LINK: www.binetusa.org

Edited to say: Here's an well written article published last year by GLAAD about the history and deep roots of bisexuality in the LGBTQ movement Some of Stonewall's biggest activists of the 60s & 70s were bisexual. My favorite all time celebrity bisexual personality was June Jordan: Jamaican African American Bisexual Poet, English Professor and activist for bisexual identity within the greater Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer community.

Anyway, here's the link to the GLAAD 2017 article: https://www.glaad.org/blog/us-bisexual-movement-biweek-history-lesson