Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[AtLast]

My hopes are that this thread brings some real communication about how Butches and Transmen as well as Inter-gendered people can better interact as friends and build support networks.

We are often in political spaces together working toward education, important legislative civil rights matters, health care issues and other matters, yet, here, our friendship gets polarized often.

I really want to address why we seem to walk this very unsteady path when some of us are each others closest friends and allies. For me, it gets really hard on the site when I feel like I need to stick up for myself as a butch woman, but know that just a few buzz words might start another gender-war. In some ways, this makes sense because we all come from many backgrounds and experiences- often pain ridden in just trying to be who we are. No matter how we identify.

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

There is one rule, however- civility. If we can't do this without being civil, I will just ask that the thread be closed. I don't want this to go down the path of self-destruction. I don't want it in the Red Zone as that would be totally counter intuitive to the purpose here.

This is aimed at friendship and communication values and interaction, not pronoun IDENTIFICATION, butch slamming, trans/IG slamming, etc. It is about how we can talk to one another and aid each other in a gender-ignorant society and not draw lines between ourselves.

This isn't about theoretical propositions, it is about friendship and relationship building.

I'm asking that if someone needs clarification, please ask for it before going off on someone (which I hope just doesn't happen here). It isn't always easy to be clear in these matters, so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt before taking issue with each other.

Please leave any personal grudges at the door, this isn’t the place for them.

I'm hopeful.... are you?

[Liam]

My hopes are that this thread brings some real communication about how Butches and Transmen as well as Inter-gendered people can better interact as friends and build support networks.

We are often in political spaces together working toward education, important legislative civil rights matters, health care issues and other matters, yet, here, our friendship gets polarized often.

I really want to address why we seem to walk this very unsteady path when some of us are each others closest friends and allies. For me, it gets really hard on the site when I feel like I need to stick up for myself as a butch woman, but know that just a few buzz words might start another gender-war. In some ways, this makes sense because we all come from many backgrounds and experiences- often pain ridden in just trying to be who we are. No matter how we identify.

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

There is one rule, however- civility. If we can't do this without being civil, I will just ask that the thread be closed. I don't want this to go down the path of self-destruction. I don't want it in the Red Zone as that would be totally counter intuitive to the purpose here.

This is aimed at friendship and communication values and interaction, not pronoun IDENTIFICATION, butch slamming, trans/IG slamming, etc. It is about how we can talk to one another and aid each other in a gender-ignorant society and not draw lines between ourselves.

This isn't about theoretical propositions, it is about friendship and relationship building.

I'm asking that if someone needs clarification, please ask for it before going off on someone (which I hope just doesn't happen here). It isn't always easy to be clear in these matters, so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt before taking issue with each other.

Please leave any personal grudges at the door, this isn’t the place for them.

I'm hopeful.... are you?

Great idea, AtLast! I'm hopeful. ;)

[AtLast]

Great idea, AtLast! I'm hopeful. ;)

Thank you, Liam. It dawned on me that so many here might just have a completely different real-time experience as friends and allies that just doesn't get reflected much. Which is so sad. My reality is way far from the experience here and on the old site.

We sit on panels, eat dinner together, try to educate, have brews together, share families with each other, have grown up and graduated high school and college together, talk about fears of a society that hates us all, talk about fears of surgeries and fear about what love will be like, if ENDA will really matter, etc......


Just seems like there is space on the Planet to heal, connect and just be people!

[Sam]

Great idea AtLast.

[Julien]

My hopes are that this thread brings some real communication about how Butches and Transmen as well as Inter-gendered people can better interact as friends and build support networks.

We are often in political spaces together working toward education, important legislative civil rights matters, health care issues and other matters, yet, here, our friendship gets polarized often.

I really want to address why we seem to walk this very unsteady path when some of us are each others closest friends and allies. For me, it gets really hard on the site when I feel like I need to stick up for myself as a butch woman, but know that just a few buzz words might start another gender-war. In some ways, this makes sense because we all come from many backgrounds and experiences- often pain ridden in just trying to be who we are. No matter how we identify.

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

There is one rule, however- civility. If we can't do this without being civil, I will just ask that the thread be closed. I don't want this to go down the path of self-destruction. I don't want it in the Red Zone as that would be totally counter intuitive to the purpose here.

This is aimed at friendship and communication values and interaction, not pronoun IDENTIFICATION, butch slamming, trans/IG slamming, etc. It is about how we can talk to one another and aid each other in a gender-ignorant society and not draw lines between ourselves.

This isn't about theoretical propositions, it is about friendship and relationship building.

I'm asking that if someone needs clarification, please ask for it before going off on someone (which I hope just doesn't happen here). It isn't always easy to be clear in these matters, so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt before taking issue with each other.

Please leave any personal grudges at the door, this isn’t the place for them.

I'm hopeful.... are you?

Great idea and a positive step forward. Good for you. I'm with you on this matter. Yes I am hopeful as well.

I think that we all need the space to talk without fear of assumptions about who we are and what our, or should I say my, position is. I don't want to speak for anyone else. Thank you for the forum.

[waxnrope]

Thanks for starting the thread, AtLast. um, I haven't a clue as to what to say though! Should we do introductions, tell our stories, or what. I mean, I am thinking about how I bond face to face with people... say little things, with humor, about myself ... see what response I get and if there's anything forthcoming from the other person. Back and forth, like. Anyway, not sure how you want to do this, so I'll just repeat myself and say thanks for starting this ...

[Corkey]

AtLast, I think this could very well be the start of a good discussion. It is my hope that we all can come to realize we are all the same, human, yes?

[Darth Denkay]

AtLastHome,

Thank you for starting this thread.

There are a number of threads on this site pertaining specifically to IDs, whether it be femme, woman, lesbian, transman, butch, male-identified - I know there are many more. It seems to me that this type of discussion is more prevalent here than on the dash-site, although I may just be noticing it more here. These dialogues are important, for sure. Identities are presumably what brought us to this site in the first place. But I sometimes wonder if more emphasis is placed on them than is necessary, at least across the site as a whole.

On a thread dedicated to IDs of course they will be the focus. On threads not dedicated to them, it seems as though they aren't as important (notice I'm not saying they don't matter but the emphasis, to me, is lower). For instance, I started the Broadway thread. When I read a post, if it's from someone I don't know too well, I don't generally check to see how they identify, other than if I need to check pronoun preference. In that instance, I don't see how ID matters so much.

Another thing that I've been wondering about for a while - how much difference is there really between IDs. Since this thread is specifically targeting butches and transmen I'll focus there. Of course there are differences, but in many cases I don't think they can be qualified. For instance, many butches here identify as women and others don't. We likely share many experiences growing up and coming to embrace our identity, but how do we really differ? Sure, some of us embrace woman, some don't but also don't embrace man, some embrace male but not man, and others embrace man. We all have an inner sense of what identity feels right to us. But if I am dialoguing with a butch woman, in most cases does that distinction matter? Who am I more similar to, a butch woman or a male-identified butch. I have no idea. But I do believe we share many of the same experiences so in many cases I don't think the distinction is necessary.

I am NOT suggesting that IDs aren't important. I am NOT suggesting that it really doesn't matter what pronouns we use - it absolutely does. But we seem so intent on delineating the IDs and not recognizing the potential for friendships, support, camaraderie. We all came to this site, I assume, because we shared an identity, because we found others like us. When did the differences become more important than the similarities?

[AtLast]

When a close butch friend decides to transition- an example of what might be discussed in the thread…..

Sometimes I really think that we don’t look at just the interpersonal side of friendships and transitioning of a close friend and what the ramifications are for our friendship. And if we did, a lot of strife could be avoided.

I have had very close butch friends who struggled in our childhood with really being men and just not having the right body. Due to being born in the early 50’s, there are a lot of things about availability of support, medical and psychological support that differ from today, but, the emotional impact between friends, one identifying as a masculine woman and the other as male probably remains the same.

For me, even though it was clear that my buddies needed to transition to have a more congruent persona, I did feel loss in terms of the fact that they (for a time), needed to move to trans friends pretty much exclusively. Consequently, I felt a little kicked to the curve simply because we stopped doing the things we always shared as buddies. It felt a lot like when a good friend gets involved romantically (and you are not) and they spend almost all of their time with their gf. Haven’t we all gone through this? Much more so for me as a young person. Later in life, this isn’t as true. My friends (as well as myself) make an effort to keep time for friends/buddies even if in the throws of passion!

I think that sometimes these kinds of things can begin to flow over into defensive posturing between butch women and trans friends. That sucks, but it feels human to me. The problem is recognizing what is really going on and talking to each other. To me, it makes sense that even though I get transitioning, the fact remains that I have never felt male or that I am a man.

I have masculine traits and am a butch, but remain a woman. My childhood trans friends certainly understood this and I understood them but, I still believe there is a missing link with the actual internal processes of our gender identity. So, their needing to hang more with other transguys makes sense (especially in terms of being able to talk on a different level about T ,surgeries, etc). I feel this way even with a professional background that brought me more information than just folks outside of queerdom, yet, I don’t have a problem at all with accepting this missing link. Yet, we have a friendship that matters. Friendships do have to be nurtured. Sometimes, I think that not recognizing the missing link really causes some problems that don’t have to happen.

So this is what I am trying to get at in the thread. Our processes and interactions, not to be or not to be…

Note- of course there are differing trans positions/identifications. My personal experience with people close to me just happens to be with FtMs and an inter-gendered cousin. And I am not going to talk from outside of my experience. There are trans masculine butches, for example, and not all butches are female-identified. If these fit for you… bring this up! I can’t speak for anyone else.

Yup, we talk about just about everything else except our human interactions with each other!

[Liam]

When a person stumbles and falls next to me, I don't stop to figure out their gender, I don't ask them how they identify—I give them my hand, and help them up. Labels help us communicate who we are, to each other, they are not necessarily definitive, they are not always binding. Regardless of which label we use to describe ourselves, there is one thing we all have in common—we are all human beings. I am quite tired of divisive discussions; it doesn't feel good to feel isolated or estranged from others, I'm hungry to feel a sense of unity.

[waxnrope]

Thanks both to Darth and AtLast for the comments above.
As a butch who is sometimes woman, sometimes male identified, I'm confused enough enough with my own fluidity to spend a lot of time not stepping on anybody else's toes about how they identify! :rofl: I just scratch my arse, come into the "room" and want to see how they navigate the rough waters that we all, or MOST of us, have to travel. I'd love nothing more than a butch or trans buddy here and at home (most of my butch friends here are rather an androgynous bunch, or closeted) so I come here for some kindredness.
Anyway, thanks again for this thread. I have some things that I want to say, but my articulation meter just dipped toward the zero mark, so I'll just go listen to music instead!

[AtLast]

When a person stumbles and falls next to me, I don't stop to figure out their gender, I don't ask them how they identify—I give them my hand, and help them up. Labels help us communicate who we are, to each other, they are not necessarily definitive, they are not always binding. Regardless of which label we use to describe ourselves, there is one thing we all have in common—we are all human beings. I am quite tired of divisive discussions; it doesn't feel good to feel isolated or estranged from others, I'm hungry to feel a sense of unity.

Yes! This is so much of what was behind starting the thread- just letting gender identification be as it is for each person and get to unification of our friendships. Try to see all of the sides that get involved as friends. Close friends matter, yet, I know we hiurt each other sometimes, but in this context, I don't think it is about gender at all.

For example, from the context of my last post, I can talk about my own feelings of hurt, but I also know the alienation on the other side from trans friends that confide in me. So, if we can tell each other about these things, our unity is stronger.

[TenderKnight]

AtLast,

Great thread! Thank you for starting it..

A little about my past.. When I found out about Butch people( on a side note, when refering to people on this site as a group, I'm using "people" it saves time and my poor fingers from typing..), I was a little shocked and very thrilled.. I can't tell you how many pictures of k.d. lang I grabbed off the internet and had posted around my room.. This was someone that I could identify with! Then I found a butch/femme site and was like, "holy crap! More poeple that I can Identify with!" I was all about it.. Reading online threads, going into chat, and meeting people locally helped me find and identify who i was and who i am now..

I am thankful for the Butches and Transmen that have posted thier thoughts and feelings for me to read and learn from, either in a good way or a bad way.. I am grateful for the folks that took time out to talk to a baby butch and then a questioning TG Butch and then finally to the transgender person tthat I am now (and have always been)..

With out my friendships and relationships with Butches here and in r/t, my journey could have been MUCH harder.. It's also nice to have people to talk to that get it.. and that you don't have to explain things every other sentance.. They just *get* it..

I started a thread about respecting women's space (and got some flack for using "women" instead of a more inclusive term).. I guess that I am kind of stuck on binary in a lot of ways.. and I am reading what people have been writting and I am learning more about the other side. It is hard for me to relate to some Butches, because they are coming from such a diffrent place then where I am.. I am trying to relearn and process through some of my assumtions and binary thinking.. I just hope that with the support of my Butch brothers and sisters, as well as my trans brothers and sisters, I can continue to grow as a person within this community. I too hope that this thread can be a good starting place.

Disclaimer: I in no way intend to drag anything here that doesn't need to be here.. I refrenced the thread I started as an example of where i just don't get it, or didn't get that the title would irk or offend some people. /Disclaimer

Thank you,
Tony

[atomiczombie]

I have a hard time figuring out why there has been on this site, a seeming juxtaposition and dualism between butches and transguys that is reactionary - like someone is encroaching on someone else's territory. Yes, butches and transguys are different, but that difference doesn't have to mean that there should be a hierarchy or a mutual exclusivity. My queer sisters and brothers are family to me. One of my very best friends is a butch. We understand things about each other that most people don't. But we recognize the differences as well and celebrate those in each other. I have a great respect for butches and their courage to walk in a world that can sometimes be harsh and judgmental, and ignorant. Let's stop the in-fighting and unite to support each other!

[Liam]

So, other than using the correct pronoun, how may I be supportive of everyone here?

[weatherboi]

Hi everybody!!!

I am a very hopeful guy!!!

I joined this site because my current place of residence is not so queer. These sites give me a place to obtain education, my need for inclusion and unity.

I will admit to being protective of the person I am. I have been betrayed and that enters into the equation for me. I tend to hold people at arms length for the sake of emotional safety.

I am very grateful to "get to" read all the different posts from all the many butches and trans folks here!! I consider myself lucky to have this space to turn to. I also consider myself lucky because I have met some really really nice butches and guys that I look forward to meeting in person!!

I think it would be a good idea to talk about situations that come up for us that make us feel we can't create bridges of friendship.

Grant

[Jett]

Interesting quote though from an odd source (forgive me if I don't get it perfectly it's been a while):

"Sometimes I think it should be a rule of war that you have to stand face to face with your enemy and get to know him before you can shoot him."
M*A*S*H, Colonel Potter

I've thought of that quote often in these "gender wars", we're so much more than our IDs. The idea that we could sum up anyone or their ideas by them isn't realistic, they're so personally subjective anyway who'd even know what the mean but to the one owning them. Sure you can tell a little by ID, but like, you can know my ID but it won't tell you that I'm a very compassionate person, don't hold a grudge long or hell, that I love fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches.

I always hate to think based on them anyone wouldn't feel welcome here in these spaces, it's shitty, and I know I've felt that way at times myself. It doesn't feel good to not feel welcome in a community you care about. I think if anybody goes away un-welcomed that's feels to me like a big fail on our part.

I don't know how to fix the shit except on my part to try to be aware of what I say and do. And yeah Atlast, I do have hope... real life I've never had issues with other identities, I just think something (maybe the face to face human factor) gets lost in translation here.

Peace,
Metro

[Andrew, Jr.]

AtomicZombie & Metro,

I agree with what you both posted. I try my best to avoid drama. Sometimes I get caught up with the words or phrases that people say. Or if I post my feelings/opinions I get flamed by the same ones. I am tired. I feel very much silenced and I question if I belong here.

I used to think that this was my community too. I get rejected by society because I am slow. If I ask a question or post my feelings or opinions there is someone to beat me down. It is worse than high school.

I do care about the many people who I do love and who I consider my family. But I am tired. I have a limited short term memory, and long term memory is at zero. I am tired of having to share personal information to every Tom, Dick, and Harry to understand me. When I post that I am not good with words, trust me. When I post I am not computer savvy. Don't ask me to post pics in the gallery. I have no clue as to how too. Make sense? If I smoke a Nub cigar, trust me I am smoking a Nub cigar.

Sorry for my rant. I just have to let it out.

Andrew

[AtLast]

AtLast,

Great thread! Thank you for starting it..

A little about my past.. When I found out about Butch people( on a side note, when refering to people on this site as a group, I'm using "people" it saves time and my poor fingers from typing..), I was a little shocked and very thrilled.. I can't tell you how many pictures of k.d. lang I grabbed off the internet and had posted around my room.. This was someone that I could identify with! Then I found a butch/femme site and was like, "holy crap! More poeple that I can Identify with!" I was all about it.. Reading online threads, going into chat, and meeting people locally helped me find and identify who i was and who i am now..

I am thankful for the Butches and Transmen that have posted thier thoughts and feelings for me to read and learn from, either in a good way or a bad way.. I am grateful for the folks that took time out to talk to a baby butch and then a questioning TG Butch and then finally to the transgender person tthat I am now (and have always been)..

With out my friendships and relationships with Butches here and in r/t, my journey could have been MUCH harder.. It's also nice to have people to talk to that get it.. and that you don't have to explain things every other sentance.. They just *get* it..

I started a thread about respecting women's space (and got some flack for using "women" instead of a more inclusive term).. I guess that I am kind of stuck on binary in a lot of ways.. and I am reading what people have been writting and I am learning more about the other side. It is hard for me to relate to some Butches, because they are coming from such a diffrent place then where I am.. I am trying to relearn and process through some of my assumtions and binary thinking.. I just hope that with the support of my Butch brothers and sisters, as well as my trans brothers and sisters, I can continue to grow as a person within this community. I too hope that this thread can be a good starting place.

Disclaimer: I in no way intend to drag anything here that doesn't need to be here.. I refrenced the thread I started as an example of where i just don't get it, or didn't get that the title would irk or offend some people. /Disclaimer

Thank you,
Tony



WOW, you and have closely related histories with our butch identity! But, I was much older before I developed a personal comfort zone. Dammit! And my history with transpeople is different than most here. Which is why I sometimes have thought, WTF? A friend pointed out to me that I have been in a state and geographical too long that trans is just part of everyday life. Plus, there has been a Tran gendered person around me or related to my relationships for 40 years, now. Not so for many people. However, I feel like my experiences is limited in many ways because it really is a different world evolving around gender these days.

I remember the woman's space thread and was glad you started it, but knew some flack would fly. But, also, that a whole lot of positive could come along, too.

Yup, a good starting place for you! Can't promise we won't get tangled up somewhere, but, so far, so good! I know that some folks have just had negative experiences on both sides (or should I say within all of the sides!), so, they will have to see how it goes before posting anything.

I have been taken to task (outside of the site, as in real-time people) by some female-identified butches because I want to talk about this stuff. They see me as a traitor. These are not really friends to me, more like acquaintances, so, I'm just letting that go. Yup, the ignorance factor rides again! But, I can't change them.


I have a hard time figuring out why there has been on this site, a seeming juxtaposition and dualism between butches and transguys that is reactionary - like someone is encroaching on someone else's territory. Yes, butches and transguys are different, but that difference doesn't have to mean that there should be a hierarchy or a mutual exclusivity. My queer sisters and brothers are family to me. One of my very best friends is a butch. We understand things about each other that most people don't. But we recognize the differences as well and celebrate those in each other. I have a great respect for butches and their courage to walk in a world that can sometimes be harsh and judgmental, and ignorant. Let's stop the in-fighting and unite to support each other!

atomiczombie-

Thank you so much for this. The part I underlined is so much at the center of how I hope this conversation goes. I don't get the dualism either. Sure, we can all have different political and philosophical views, and thoughts about gender (in and of itself), but I don't want to waste time fighting. I want unity, too. Not that we can't and won't disagree, but I'd much rather have disagreement and walk away with knowing someone better due to it.

Yes, let's celebrate!



Sometimes, I think that

[princessbelle]

If i may......

Just wanted to pop my femme head in here, since AtLast invited everyone (thanks for that)....

I want to just say how wonderful this thread is to read and how happy I am to see it. In my life as a femme, I have wittnessed the sometimes anamosity that can go on. It has always saddened me.

What a wonderful idea, Atlast, to bring the positive, upbeat, informative and "shaking hands" comradery that this has started.

*curtsies to all here and

Thank you for the breath of fresh air and sunlight that leads our community into strength and togetherness and overpowers the negative and bias who's shadows grow larger in the dark.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have to ask just for clarification because I really need it right now..

Was I wrong to assume this was Butch and Transmen space? or was everyone allowed?

Thank you for your time.

[Linus]

I have to ask just for clarification because I really need it right now..

Was I wrong to assume this was Butch and Transmen space? or was everyone allowed?

Thank you for your time.


From the OP:


Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

[The_Lady_Snow]

From the OP:




[/COLOR][/FONT]


Linus thank you

I am to busy with a soon to be 10 year old to have read it all...

I appreciate the clarification, for now I can post some thoughts.:praying:

[AtLast]

If i may......

Just wanted to pop my femme head in here, since AtLast invited everyone (thanks for that)....

I want to just say how wonderful this thread is to read and how happy I am to see it. In my life as a femme, I have wittnessed the sometimes anamosity that can go on. It has always saddened me.

What a wonderful idea, Atlast, to bring the positive, upbeat, informative and "shaking hands" comradery that this has started.

*curtsies to all here and

Thank you for the breath of fresh air and sunlight that leads our community into strength and togetherness and overpowers the negative and bias who's shadows grow larger in the dark.

Yup... everyone is welcome!!! I put it in the general topic area about relationships, etc. and community because I wanted it to really be about friendship struggles, understanding, misunderstanding, how feelings get hurt and how we deal with this, sharing what is common, what is not.... how we all interact in real-time and here... and anyone can add other stuff to the list! I would think femmes have some perspectives to share, too! Maybe MtFs might want to say a few things....

What is kewl is that quite a few members have just come in and posted!

[Sam]

I'm thinking they will let ANYONE in this thread eh?

So many thanks to ya'll this is a great thread. i have been reading along.

[DapperButch]

Yup... everyone is welcome!!! I put it in the general topic area about relationships, etc. and community because I wanted it to really be about friendship struggles, understanding, misunderstanding, how feelings get hurt and how we deal with this, sharing what is common, what is not.... how we all interact in real-time and here... and anyone can add other stuff to the list! I would think femmes have some perspectives to share, too! Maybe MtFs might want to say a few things....

What is kewl is that quite a few members have just come in and posted!


Forgive me here, AtLast, but I just want to make sure...the topic is butch, transmen, and intergendered friendships, though, correct?

[Sam]

Linus thank you

I am to busy with a soon to be 10 year old to have read it all...

I appreciate the clarification, for now I can post some thoughts.:praying:


wow 10 already? how time flies :|

i know wrong thread

[DapperButch]

...Another thing that I've been wondering about for a while - how much difference is there really between IDs. Since this thread is specifically targeting butches and transmen I'll focus there. Of course there are differences, but in many cases I don't think they can be qualified. For instance, many butches here identify as women and others don't. We likely share many experiences growing up and coming to embrace our identity, but how do we really differ? Sure, some of us embrace woman, some don't but also don't embrace man, some embrace male but not man, and others embrace man. We all have an inner sense of what identity feels right to us. But if I am dialoguing with a butch woman, in most cases does that distinction matter? Who am I more similar to, a butch woman or a male-identified butch. I have no idea. But I do believe we share many of the same experiences so in many cases I don't think the distinction is necessary....



I just wanted to highlight this here, Darth, as it is something that I have thought about too. We spend SO much time looking at the differences (or thinking we are), and not focusing on the commonalities between the butch IDs (and for that matter, transmen).

[The_Lady_Snow]

Forgive me here, AtLast, but I just want to make sure...the topic is butch, transmen, and intergendered friendships, though, correct?


*I* think (not saying this for everyone) that another thread should be started on a femme's perspective or affect on these friendships. This way you all have the chance to build some bridges and friendships without more stuff thrown in there.

I hope that made sense.

Oh lookee here I got ballsy and made the damn thread...

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=129647#post129647


Mince!!!!

[weatherboi]

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.

2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

[Linus]

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.


Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

[weatherboi]

no doubt about that Linus but we are discussing the butch side of it...not the ex side of it. as far as your opinion about that i am implying that women are owned that is not where i am coming from and i am sorry you choose to view it that way. sooo thanks for the patience and understanding that i asked for.



Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

[Corkey]

Personally, I tend to keep to myself, if asked I'll be honest without giving the details. It is after all none of my business. What goes on between two consenting adults is none o' mine.
Pronouns are a given I'll respect yours if you respect mine.
Being an adult and taking responsibility for myself is all I can do.

[Dylan]

You know, when I'm having a conversation in real time...where I make most of my friends...I don't tend to pick apart the supposed underlying meanings of everything/sentence/word they use.

I think VERY often times here, conversations get mired in down in 'semantics wars'

How does this apply to this thread? Linus, I don't think there is anyone here who thinks weatherboi thinks of women as chattel. If for no other reason (besides I've never seen him say anything off color) than Snow would kick his ass.

Honestly, I think these gender wars start over stuff like this, and these things RARELY happen (to me anyways) in real time. Had I heard that sentence in real time, by someone I'm familiar with on the same level as weatherboi, I would probably concentrate on the meat of the entirety of the whole statement than a picking apart of semantics


Just Trying To 'Bond',
Dylan

[waxnrope]

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

I agree with your first paragraph, Linus. However, I would argue, in the case of the second paragraph, that some femmes feel the same way about other femmes who steal their "guy", their butch, etc. And the same goes for some heteros as well. So, is chattel (you spelled it correctly) then, in your mind, gendered as you state here?

[Linus]

no doubt about that Linus but we are discussing the butch side of it...not the ex side of it. as far as your opinion about that i am implying that women are owned that is not where i am coming from and i am sorry you choose to view it that way. sooo thanks for the patience and understanding that i asked for.

But that is your personal view and there is nothing wrong with that. I simply stated my view in relation to what you posted and how it felt personally (this is why I stated it from my point of view and indicated the "personally" parts). I apologize for not being clearer on what I was trying to express.

Part of the support for each other is to recognize the differences as well as the similarities. Our world (and I'm referring to this in a wider general sense) is all about extremes of support or contrary. Society seems more intent on accepting extremes rather than recognizing the middle ground or middle way. Just because I do not agree with your point of view doesn't mean I do not respect you or your understanding.

I went through the "my g/f was stolen by.." point not too long ago (about 4 years now). I look back on it as a learning experience. It was not the butch's fault nor the g/f fault. It was reflective of the time and what was going on. It cost me a potential friendship with both because of my internal view of "ownership" and "how dare he!" thoughts.

To me -- and I'll emphasize that these are MY thoughts, MY views and are only to be view as that of the Linus -- the ethic of "no butch/transman/whatever should steal another's femme/girl/whatever" creates boundary lines and animosity in itself. Rather I would prefer to create deep friendships with those transmen/butches/whatever that would negate their desire to cause distrust.

Will it never happen again? Eh. Who knows? Anything is certainly possible. But for me personally, I find it creates lines where there shouldn't be any.

[DapperButch]

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.
2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

[Ebon]

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.

2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

I was just talking with my buddy about this today. We were talking about how we should be looking out for our friends lady not trying to hit on her. Love to know some guys are on the same page.

OB

[Corkey]

I"m kinda out of this as far as dating, um married, but when I did date it wasn't about my friends ex, I just never gave it a thought, cause if it's my friends ex, the ex wouldn't be in my circle of dating prospects. Now I've also had some long term relationships, so none of this has ever been an issue for me.

[weatherboi]

yes!!! i hold this same rule for myself.


Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

[Ebon]

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

[Liam]

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

I do, I think it keeps my friendships "cleaner," simpler and most definitely easier.

[DapperButch]

I do, I think it keeps my friendships "cleaner," simpler and most definitely easier.


Exactly.

Like Corkey said, it never even enters my head.

[DapperButch]

I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

I think it is a different category, but I have never done that either. Nor do I think I would.

I tend to not have regular contact with my ex-g.f.s, subsequently, I tend to not continue friendships with that person's closest friends.

To use Liam's words, I tend to like thing "clean" and "simple" in my life. Relationships are tough enough, adding in nebulous boundaries can make them harder!

[Hack]

Truth be told, I have very few butch friends online or in RT. I tend to not socialize in the queer world in RT. My closest friends are straight males. I had a big falling out with a lot of my butch friends a few years ago while going through a messy breakup that was characterized by one side as something it totally wasn't. There was a perception, I think, that I had done a dishonorable thing, when I really hadn't. Anyway, that whole experience sort of left a bad taste in my mouth. It's only recently that I have welcomed friendship from butches, and I like that I have someone I can talk to who automatically knows the shorthand, as it were. I do plan on being somewhat selective in my friendships based on lessons learned.

Jake

[DapperButch]

Truth be told, I have very few butch friends online or in RT. I tend to not socialize in the queer world in RT. My closest friends are straight males. I had a big falling out with a lot of my butch friends a few years ago while going through a messy breakup that was characterized by one side as something it totally wasn't. There was a perception, I think, that I had done a dishonorable thing, when I really hadn't. Anyway, that whole experience sort of left a bad taste in my mouth. It's only recently that I have welcomed friendship from butches, and I like that I have someone I can talk to who automatically knows the shorthand, as it were. I do plan on being someone selective in my friendships based on lessons learned.

Jake

I, personally, have no real time butch or transguy friends. All of my gay friends are androgynous, and although I love them dearly, I so wish I had someone to have "shorthand" with, in real life.

God knows how I have found femme off line to date. The femmes I have dated (except for once, I only date locally), have never been able to find femme friends, either.

And when it comes to online, I am not really connected to any butches/transguys, either. Has just fallen out that way, for whatever reason?

I am very thankful for b/f/trans space on the internet, however. I certainly get a lot of my needs met just by being on this type of site.

[Ebon]

I think it is a different category, but I have never done that either. Nor do I think I would.

I tend to not have regular contact with my ex-g.f.s, subsequently, I tend to not continue friendships with that person's closest friends.

To use Liam's words, I tend to like thing "clean" and "simple" in my life. Relationships are tough enough, adding in nebulous boundaries can make them harder!

Right on. Same here, except for one, I won't get into details. I know what you mean though. It's like a new chapter for me when the relationship is over, especially if it was ltr.

[weatherboi]

I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

[Ebon]

I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

Nope I see it all the time with another group of friends. This one is with that ones ex and this one is with that one ex and this one is with this ones mom. It gets ridiculous.

[Kosmo]

I don't know any transmen or other butches in real time. I sometimes feel like a phantom moving through the world. I can appear to be indecisive on certain subjects, but that's because I have a strong sense of seeing both sides of an issue and I greatly respect others opinions and their views. Not to say I don't have strong opinions, but real life interaction would be so beneficial at times.

I am glad to see this thread started. I have always noticed the online difficulties we as transmen and butches have had relating or communicating with each other and have always wondered why that is.

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there.

I don't post a lot because life keeps me busy and I do have other interests, but this is a thread I will follow.

[DapperButch]

I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

Nope I see it all the time with another group of friends. This one is with that ones ex and this one is with that one ex and this one is with this ones mom. It gets ridiculous.


Right, to me that is "incestuous" (for lack of a better term). I have been fortunate that my group of friends (well, I have more than one "pocket" of friends, I guess I should say), don't operate in this way. It would be uncomfortable for me to be with a whole group of people who have moved from one person to the next in a group (talking monogamous relationships here).

However, it happens. I think that part of it (at least, "back in the day", when I saw it more), relates to the fact that there is a limited "supply" of homosexual females/queers (in comparison to heterosexuals, for example).

[Ebon]

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?


I would say all of the above. When I was younger and didn't have a strong sense of self I have been that guy. I used to participate in what I called "butch contests", trying to get girls attention. I recognized it and still participated in it. Not anymore though. I would rather support my brother than compete. That also includes letting him know when he's being an asshat.

[DapperButch]

[QUOTE=Kosmo;129882]
....I am glad to see this thread started. I have always noticed the online difficulties we as transmen and butches have had relating or communicating with each other and have always wondered why that is.

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there....

QUOTE]

You know, I honestly have to say that until this site I really didn't notice the infighting. And I was on the other site most often daily, for years. I don't know what the hell I was doing over there, but I just didn't notice. Perhaps I moved off of those threads when the craziness started, but I also think that back then I never noticed people, I just noticed posts, if that makes any sense. I didn't have an investment in the same way b/c I never really posted, or connected with others.

I didn't watch the relationships between others at all, so I wouldn't have tracked how things shook out between groups of people. I think I was just so wrapped up in reading about gender, I just moved along. So, maybe that is why I didn't notice.

In terms of this site, I have obviously seen it. However, I haven't noticed any real communication/relating problems between trans people and butches...more so within butch groupings.

I would very much like to read others' thoughts on this, BUT, not at the expense of us coming together in the way that we are right now.

ETA: So, unless our talking about what happened in the past is set up as a way to move forward, I would be hesitant for us to have that discussion, I guess I am saying.

[Kosmo]

<clip>All of my gay friends are androgynous, and although I love them dearly, I so wish I had someone to have "shorthand" with, in real life.

<clip>

Same here. Sometimes it feels kinda strange. I need to shop around for a butch buddy, lol.

[Strappie]

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

[Kosmo]

I would say all of the above. When I was younger and didn't have a strong sense of self I have been that guy. I used to participate in what I called "butch contests", trying to get girls attention. I recognized it and still participated in it. Not anymore though. I would rather support my brother than compete. That also includes letting him know when he's being an asshat.

Yes, I agree about the 'butch contests'. In the club/bar environment for me.

My sense of self took years to develop and I'm still honing it. Now I am comfortable in who I am. Like the proverbial pair of favorite jeans, t-shirt or sneakers. I've also allowed myself to be more fluid in how I identify regarding male/female. I'm finding my center so to speak.

I no longer feel that false need to prove some sort of degree of being butch.

I think supporting each other is important. And being honest, even more so.

[Corkey]

Strappie, personally I don't care about the dash site, or what they do or don't do, I have no vested interest in that site. I know that this site and the owners are very inclusive and would not in any way be divisive to the membership. So what the owner of the other site does or doesn't do in no way effects me or mine. And take your time to express yourself, I'm in no hurry.

[DapperButch]

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask if you? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.



Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

I would really like to know. Not b/c I am planning on going, but b/c I would like to know.

Also, if it is typcially only gay females, did the admin of the dash site may a special request that EVERYONE on her web site be able to attend?

Let us (or at least me!) know if you make that phone call/pose that question on the site, what you find out.

[Strappie]

Corkey,

Thanks for not taking my words wrong. I find it a bit absurd that they would allow Men to go on the Cruise. They might as well open it up if they do that. I guess at this point I'm frustrated with the decision they made because I do know some do not feel it would be a welcoming place for them. I've heard a couple of times, "why would I support a function that is for "women" only.

[Kosmo]

Strappie,

I don't know who Olivia markets their cruises to now. I know how they initially did. They probably have a website you can check.

[Strappie]

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

I would really like to know. Not b/c I am planning on going, but b/c I would like to know.

Also, if it is typcially only gay females, did the admin of the dash site may a special request that EVERYONE on her web site be able to attend?

Let us (or at least me!) know if you make that phone call/pose that question on the site, what you find out.

Dapper,

I will call Olivia Cruise myself tomorrow.. for now I need to settle my thoughts and get some sleep. 5am comes fast at Midnight!

[Ebon]

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.



Well if they have that policy wouldn't the cruise attract people that mostly felt the same way?

[Corkey]

Corkey,

Thanks for not taking my words wrong. I find it a bit absurd that they would allow Men to go on the Cruise. They might as well open it up if they do that. I guess at this point I'm frustrated with the decision they made because I do know some do not feel it would be a welcoming place for them. I've heard a couple of times, "why would I support a function that is for "women" only.

I totally understand your concern, but I understand that for this particular cruse they are allowing FTM's and Transmen on the joy ride. Personally I wouldn't go on an Olivia cruse as it isn't my cuppa, but I would go on a Princess cruse to Alaska if given the opportunity, and of course Ami would be right by my side.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=DapperButch;129926


Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there....

QUOTE]



Glad you threw it out here!

I think you might have something here with being guarded and self-protective. I just don't see either butches or trans/ig (and all the various identities) having a great time within society a lot of the time when we all just want to be who we are. And in our community, there just seems to be an awful lot of stereotyping on top of the outside world.

I think it is hard to feel left out when there just doesn't seem to be much room for yourself anywhere, so, when it feels shitty here, it feels really bad!

I have thought about the posturing stuff and competition over femmes quite a bit. I don't know if this is really true, but I wonder how much all of us internalize what femmes project as being attractive in terms of who we all are. Hell, we have all read posts talking about the super-butch, etc. by some (not all) femmes. But, I sure see other posts in support of a butch like me, too.

There are femmes that will only date Transmen and there are those that will only date butches. I try not to question either even though I have had some weird things happen around dating a couple of femmes that wanted me to transition. I honestly believe that everyone is just attracted to what they are attracted to. Then, again, I know femmes that have said they didn't ever think they would be with a transguy, but are. It seems to me that it is the person they fell in love with and the gender stuff just doesn't matter.

Hummm... you know, one of my old time FtM friends once did say to me that he sometimes felt that women (he would use women, not femme as he has no identification with the B-F dynamic) just wanted to find out about a Transguy out of shear curiosity! This made him pretty suspicious and guarded. I thought this sucked because he isn't a freaking experiment!

Ut, Oh... maybe I digressed....

Anyway, Dapper, I think there is a whole big pile of things that both butches and transmen could be guarded about which then can just lead to defensiveness for self-protection. I wish this wasn't true because it is smacking us all around, really getting in the way of our friendships and working together for civil rights (if that is something you want to do).

[Dylan]

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.



Here's the deal with Olivia Cruises. I know this, because I called them just last week to find out (for sure...from the horse's mouth) who's welcome.

Men (all flavors) are welcome on the cruises. They ask that you please realize this is a cruise geared towards the lesbian community, but men are welcome as long as they respect that it's geared towards lesbians.

They were extremely nice to me when I called, and really stressed the point that it's not a 'women-only' space.


Not That I Plan On Going, But...There's The Info,
Dylan

[JustJo]

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

Just peeking in...

I can answer one teeny piece of this. Olivia does allow straight cis women on the cruise. A strongly feminist (and celibate by choice) friend goes on these cruises because she prefers the time outside of the company of men.

[AtLast]

Just peeking in...

I can answer one teeny piece of this. Olivia does allow straight cis women on the cruise. A strongly feminist (and celibate by choice) friend goes on these cruises because she prefers the time outside of the company of men.

It looks like from what Dylan found out via calling Olivia, that all cruises are open to any gender. I do know that they used to have special family cruises open to all. So, maybe their TOS have changed?

Never have gone on one of these, have thought about it, but, I don't know how I would deal with possibly being in a situation in which both B-F and transphobia might be more than just a little present. Humm... but I guess I am being stereotypic, here. Ugh... have to think about this.

Weird, I make no bones about my feminist lesbian identity, but have to say that I too, have had negative experience with some (not all) lesbian geared activities. LOL... I have a lesbian couple that lives across the street from me that stopped talking to me after they saw me in a tux a couple of years ago going to the Oakland B-F Bash!!

Also, prior to knowing them as they really are, a close FtM friend (actually the co-parent to my late partner's daughter) was visiting and they happened to be over. He is very open about his transitioning and these women were total assholes to him. He can take on gender-ignorance just fine, but I felt awful.

So, I know if I did go on a cruise and was in the midst of this kind of bigotry, it would not be good! The idea of spending all that cash for a leisure vacation and being in a space in which this went on, just doesn't sound good!

It isn't really about women's space with me, it's about discrimination and bigotry which unfortunately, goes both ways. Sucks!

Argh... when is this all going to stop with the entire LGBTIQ community?Every year during Pride, I honestly go through a roller-coaster of emotions.

[TenderKnight]

Well, after reading some of the posts on here, I am feeling kinda mixed, to be honest.. It's amazing how many triggers can go off while reading a thread! lol

In any case, here are some of my thoughts..

RE: Butch/trans morals and ethics when it comes to dating a friend's ex.. I take it as it comes.. If I am good friends with both, I can usually tell if it's a healthy break up that just needs time for both partners to heal, or if it is unhealthy and full of destructive behavior and hurt feelings.. In the first case, if I'm attracted to one of the partners, I will let them know, in a comfortable way, that I am interested and that I would like to date them, but I want to allow them time to heal.. Then it is up to them and we can go from there. Is it my responcibility to ask permission from the other ex partner? No.. The relationship is over. *shrugs*

In the second case, I leave it be.. It isn't healthy and I don't want to be a rebound or a way to get back at an ex.. I have been both and it hurts.

RE: Women's only space.. We got the cruise thing settled out, but when I first saw the Oblivia post by Strappie, I was thinking, "Oh god! Being stuck on a boat with a bunch of people that don't want me there? Having those "conversations" with people that don't get or don't WANT to get why I am transgender? No thanks.." It is also about giving women, (god yes, I'm using women.. female only?), females a place to feel safe and comfortable with themselves and who surround them. I *don't* belong. I will never belong in female only space. I have made my "choice" and if I expect to be respected, then I will do the same..

On a side note.. FUCKING AWESOME COMMUNICATION going on in this thread.. At Last, thank you so very much for talking TO me and not just to my post. I felt that. Thank you.

I may have more later.. Thank you all for posting and for being real.

-Tony, Asshat (not really, but it made me laugh..)

[Kosmo]

These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task.

I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us.

Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share.

To AtLastHome,
I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote:

‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’

So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity.

I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately.

On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today.

These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road! ;)

I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work ;) and I can't login from there.

[AtLast]

These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task.

I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us.

Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share.

To AtLastHome,
I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote:

‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’

So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity.

I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately.

On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today.

These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road! ;)

I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work ;) and I can't login from there.

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

[Kosmo]

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

No problem, ALH. Just wanted to make it clear. On the other hand, if I say something really stupid in the future, I might not want to clear it up, lol.

[DapperButch]

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

No problem, ALH. Just wanted to make it clear. On the other hand, if I say something really stupid in the future, I might not want to clear it up, lol.

And I didn't even notice even though I read AtLast's post! lol

[AtLast]

And I didn't even notice even though I read AtLast's post! lol

Oh, Dapper... and here I was thinking about senior moments! ROTFL!!

Just a side note.... for the whole thread... Wouldn't it be kewl to charter a cruise of our own?! All of our partners, who we have made our family.. kids, everybody, but just us! A floating reunion or bash.... But, I do get sea sick... hummmm... I can do it!

[TenderKnight]

Oh, Dapper... and here I was thinking about senior moments! ROTFL!!

Just a side note.... for the whole thread... Wouldn't it be kewl to charter a cruise of our own?! All of our partners, who we have made our family.. kids, everybody, but just us! A floating reunion or bash.... But, I do get sea sick... hummmm... I can do it!

I second that!

[AtLast]

I second that!

LOL... until I'm leaning over the side of the ship, sick!

:seeingstars:

[JustJo]

LOL... until I'm leaning over the side of the ship, sick!

:seeingstars:

We will bring you dramamine...:|

[Jett]

Maybe I'm mistaken but I feel like the dissonance between different masculine BFP ID's goes beyond butch codes, dating ex's etc.? I've never done that but still gotten caught in the cross fire of these "gender wars". (Yeah I realize that's bonding but needed a jump in ;))

Personally I think a lot of it revolves around ingrained stereotypical beliefs about women, men, female, male, lesbians, feminists and sure sometimes (but I think much less often) just plain sexism, lesphobia/homophobia, transphobia and misogyny etc.

I mentioned before that I think things here (online) get lost in translation. People read others posts through there own lens, if some of the things I mentioned above (and more) are in that persons lens when they're reading posts, I think they can read a lot between the lines that isn't there.

We are full of misinformation by the time we find these sites, "transmen transition to gain priviledge or b/c of misogyny", "lesbians hate men", "all queer females are extreme feminists", etc. etc. etc. And we get here where we should be finally equally valued and find... male female hierarchies, so here female ID'd feel undervalued and misunderstood. Male ID'd hear "I only date female ID", and to be fair this is something they face hugely more in the real world than female ID'd do. Those majority of (femme or not) lesbians who are "goo goo ga ga over butches but don't want those who think they're or look too male". That stuffs all over the internet and real life too.

And there aren't big real world communities for Transpeople and most tg or male ID butches the way there are for most female ID butches and butch lesbians. Would anyone wonder why they'd place such great value on having and finding community and desiring to feel welcome here and probably being somewhat defensive about it? I sure as hell don't.

I dunno, I think we bring a lot of the negative real world experiences in here with us, beliefs, resentments, fears and project them out onto each other...

We look for these things and where you look you'll most certainly see whether it's always there or not. Then it's the "Aha! I was right about them!"... when in reality the majority are really good peeps and we should and can be some of each others best friends and allies no matter the ID (sans natural personality conflicts).

I mean does anyone really want to win the "war"? Really actually want some particular ID to one by one blip off the site forever? I like to think none of us would really want to see that happen to anybody let alone a whole group of people.

People waste to much life on this stupid "war", I don't want anything to do with it, everything about it just tastes like shit. That's all I got to say about it.

Metro

[Andrew, Jr.]

I just responded a short time ago in a thread Medusa started about communication. And I will basically state here what I did there because it is how I feel.

I think/believe we all should celebrate each other. We should just love each other instead of tearing each other down. Life is hard enough. It is this simple.

Love,
Andrew

[Dylan]

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan


Some is operative, I hope!

Maybe, this happens simply due to the fact that no matter who we are, we have been subjected to the patriarchal confines of gender all of our lives. Unfortunately, man, male just gets equated with privilege due to this. Not a good jump to take, as there are a hell of a lot of variables involved in any form of privilege.

Also, and unfortunately, the male role models many of us have had have just been examples of this privilege gone amuck in this man's world.

On the other side of this, as one having a hand in raising a male child (who is now raising two female children), I have to say that it can be as painful to see what men in general can be saddled with in terms of the entire patriarchal schema. There are many just plain human characteristics that get genderized in ways that hold us all back.

Personally, I feel it is the buss word phenomenon here that is the culprit most often (unless it's just obvious sexist terminology - and when I use the term sexist, it means toward any form of gender). Also, the plain truth is that there have been times when I have been attacked for identifying as female. And the inverse is true for male identification. So, we all will most likely get pissed when we have this happen.

However, the problem is when we all generalize the deeds of an individual to every identification represented here. Hey, I admit, that sometimes it is hard for me to see past what has happened to me via this privilege in life, especially sexual assault and receiving less pay for the same work.

I have to bring up the fact that many male-identified or Transmen here do slap misogynist statements down as much as any female-identified butch here. I’m thinking it might be a good idea for everyone to take a look at what a member’s identification is to the left of the screen when reading posts.

But, in terms of how we interact as friends in our lives or support gender as what we now know (some of us are old), fluid and just not your mother's or father's gender? And, online, how do we all deal with this... that is my original question. What effect does this have on us as part of this entire community?


But, 'cept.... talk about all of this.... I'm too arthritic to tackle much these days...

[Jett]

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

I don't believe I've ever seen FIB's say that male ID receive male privilege, or the posts you've spoken of either. More so I've seen many conversations involving all ID's, femme, butches, etc speaking on if transmen receive it.

If there's that "common belief", I guess no one told me, can't help you. I could speculate, but it's be just that speculation, cause I don't believe they do myself. Besides I think there's enough speculation around here enough as it.

Metro

[TenderKnight]

Dylan,

I have to be honest, I don't think that this thread was started about the *gender war*, but rather, to help heal after it.. Or maybe take a break from it..

I can't "tackle" your question, because I don't see it as anything but YOU bringing the "war" back in here.

Just being honest here..

I mean, I get that you are trying to get to the base of things, trying to uncover the hows and whys.. But sometimes, the answer is that some people refuse to let go of thier "side" and that is what keeps this debate going on.

How would you help build a bridge so that we don't have to be "at war"? How do you feel we, as a group, can stop hurting or disrespecting one another?

Not being snarky, Dylan, I'm just so friggin TIRED of the same stuff.. I feel that this thread has been a place of relative safety from the gender stuff.. We all came to this site for a reason, and I doubt it was to debate on who's right and who's wrong when it comes to someone's PERSONAL gender identification for themselves..

That's all I got.. I'm going to put an ice pack on my heart for a while.. Think it's been a bit battered lately.

-Tony

PS- It looks like I signaled you out, Dylan, I'm not trying to.. Sorry it comes off like that, im just too tired to explain more then that.. maybe I will later. Take care.

[Dylan]

Dylan,

I have to be honest, I don't think that this thread was started about the *gender war*, but rather, to help heal after it.. Or maybe take a break from it..

I can't "tackle" your question, because I don't see it as anything but YOU bringing the "war" back in here.

Just being honest here..

I mean, I get that you are trying to get to the base of things, trying to uncover the hows and whys.. But sometimes, the answer is that some people refuse to let go of thier "side" and that is what keeps this debate going on.

How would you help build a bridge so that we don't have to be "at war"? How do you feel we, as a group, can stop hurting or disrespecting one another?

Not being snarky, Dylan, I'm just so friggin TIRED of the same stuff.. I feel that this thread has been a place of relative safety from the gender stuff.. We all came to this site for a reason, and I doubt it was to debate on who's right and who's wrong when it comes to someone's PERSONAL gender identification for themselves..

That's all I got.. I'm going to put an ice pack on my heart for a while.. Think it's been a bit battered lately.

-Tony

PS- It looks like I signaled you out, Dylan, I'm not trying to.. Sorry it comes off like that, im just too tired to explain more then that.. maybe I will later. Take care.

That's cool. I wasn't sure. I just saw a lot of people referencing the 'gender wars', and I thought instead of just referencing, maybe someone wanted to actually talk about it. But I'm cool not talking about it too, cuz I'm sick of that conversation too.

So maybe we could all stop side skirting it, and just drop it? Cuz I'm kind of at the shit or get off the pot (openly discuss it or shut up about) point.

So six o' one/ half dozen o' the other...I'm e-z goin'

Thanks for your decent post, and thanks for your posts atlast and met


So...This Is One Of Those Bonding Threads?,
Dylan

[TenderKnight]

maybe we could bond about how sick we are of the gender wars conversation/debate..

Again, not that it isn't important, but I for one feel pretty defeated by it already.. *pulls out his white hanky*

I say Sir/Madam/Human Being.. I do surrender, I do have a gender and it isn't like everyone else's.. You win. ;)

-Tony, who hopes that his humer shows through in this attempt to be cleaver..

[Ebon]

maybe we could bond about how sick we are of the gender wars conversation/debate..

Again, not that it isn't important, but I for one feel pretty defeated by it already.. *pulls out his white hanky*

I say Sir/Madam/Human Being.. I do surrender, I do have a gender and it isn't like everyone else's.. You win. ;)

-Tony, who hopes that his humer shows through in this attempt to be cleaver..

I agree....I was totally into when we were talking about values and what not.

[sharkchomp]

What I see is 'us' vs 'them'. I have seen what Dylan spoke of. The fact that it is dismissed or overlooked or just not seen is denial. We can deny that, we can deny the ID war altogether if we so choose. We can deny that assumptions are made by both 'camps'. Denial doesn't lead to growth or forgiveness or healing. Bridges can only be built when the majority is wanting and willing to do the work on the foundation of the bridge. And the foundation is the nitty gritty work.

I think lines have been drawn in the sand and people have become deeply entrenched. The fact that it was even discussed that male id'ed/trans people should be removed from the site says a lot and shows just how vast the divide is.

How do we heal? How do we come together as a community? With sincerity from all to move towards a common ground, calm words and open minds and hearts. It can be done but it will take work and a desire to accept each other's differences. Frank but peaceful discussions would be necessary.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[TenderKnight]

You know, I don't deny it is going on and has been going on for years, both online and off. Why else would I feel so damned heart sick over this stuff? People are getting hurt, people are defensive and offensive, there are clear sides and clear "captions" if not generals.. Hell yeah there is a gender war going on here.

The question that I'd like answered is this; what questions do we ask, not only of others but of ourselves about all this? How can we help respect bounderies so that all can live in a comfortable balance here? How can we help mediate the sides so that there are clear and set lines that we don't cross?

I don't know. I am totally open to discussing this, my heart and soul bare, if it will bring some kind of peace. Can this happen? Can we come to the table without arms or armor?

If there is a war here, this is what has to happen.

So.. How do we do this?

[Ebon]

What I see is 'us' vs 'them'. I have seen what Dylan spoke of. The fact that it is dismissed or overlooked or just not seen is denial. We can deny that, we can deny the ID war altogether if we so choose. We can deny that assumptions are made by both 'camps'. Denial doesn't lead to growth or forgiveness or healing. Bridges can only be built when the majority is wanting and willing to do the work on the foundation of the bridge. And the foundation is the nitty gritty work.

I think lines have been drawn in the sand and people have become deeply entrenched. The fact that it was even discussed that male id'ed/trans people should be removed from the site says a lot and shows just how vast the divide is.

How do we heal? How do we come together as a community? With sincerity from all to move towards a common ground, calm words and open minds and hearts. It can be done but it will take work and a desire to accept each other's differences. Frank but peaceful discussions would be necessary.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

I don't think anyone is dismissing or avoiding it, I just don't think this thread was starting for that particular discussion.

[sharkchomp]

I don't think anyone is dismissing or avoiding it, I just don't think this thread was starting for that particular discussion.

No problem :)

I'm out.....

~~~shark~~~~~~~

[Gayla]

Not that I'm attempting to rehash, but I think I must have missed the discussion about male ID'd/trans people being asked to leave the site. Can someone point me in the right direction please.

I also think there have been / are some good conversations happening in other threads and that we maybe don't have to do it again in this one. The values discussion was a good one and I am interested in the various viewpoints on that. I'm not exactly sure where I fall so I haven't posted anything yet but I'm working my way to it.

[waxnrope]

would someone please send me a PM about the "gender wars" - a paragraphical synopsis would do? I am not joking ... just kinda new to online discussions. And no, I do not see this in r/l ... I have few butch friends ... most are andro or closeted. most of my friends are femmes or straight women. I've made a few friends here, and have made plans with AtLast to have coffee or such as we live near one another. But there is so much that I do not understand ... all the assumptions of malfeasance, overt hostility, sniping, etc. and I do not comprehend this and think that a bit of history would help me.
Thanks in advance, and peace to all

[AtLast]

No problem :)

I'm out.....

~~~shark~~~~~~~

I hope you come back. What you posted does belong, but, I can say it happens both ways and my intent here was to look at (not deny) these issues from a different way of relating to each other.

My off-line, real-time relationships with my trans friends are simply nothing like what happens here. And WE DO have these discussions all of the time. What goes on in our being able to see each other's viewpoints is that we have sound bonding as friends. Also, a history of in some cases, many years. Some have once identified as butch, others have not. There are transmasculine butches, too. Some have absolutely no interest in even being on a B-F site, others do and do have a point of personal reference with the B-F dynamic overall.

Maybe, I am just barking up the wrong tree in thinking that if we could apply some of how we interact outside of these sites, we can kick that line in the sand to the curb. If this true, I'll accept it. Can't change this by myself.

A couple of transguys have talked some about their understanding of butches and what we experience and have close butch friends. I have talked about this the other way around and even my protectiveness of trans friends sometimes. And they can be protective of me, too. Thus, my just not getting our gender/butch/trans-wars.

It is not lost on me that simply my having feminist, lesbian identifiers on my profile along with woman and butch can be the first (sometimes only) place a trans (and frankly, a MIB) member may come at me from a negative space. I can't fix this. However, my using these is not about anyone else but myself. Just as it is for trans members it is important for me to distinguish myself. And this just seems like something that is important to each individual person.

It has always stumped me why words, or sexual preferences, really, instead of content of ideas gets us in tangles. Let's take trans and butch out the equation and use stone or daddy, for example. Is that the entirety of the person? And why would someone take issue with these in the first place? They are what that person wants to have on their profile, for themselves. Yes, both have particular meanings, yet, it is just dumb to think you know everything about that person based on these terms.

There have been times I have thought, just put butch or nothing in that line. But, I'm not nothing and I am comfortable with my butch identity simply as it is. And I'm not going to change my profile just to appease others- and wouldn't want any one else to do this.

The only thing I know for myself is that it would be great if we could get this stuff put into perspectives that add to the community and understanding, not detract from it.

Actually, I feel that butch or trans is really not the problem, things get off to the races with sexual and political identification more here. Usually based upon false and preconceived notions with our reading between the lines (someone else brought this up). We all have personal biases, but certainly don't have to stay married to them.

Hell, I’ve had a PM come my way about this thread stating the person wasn’t a lesbian, so they were not going to join in. WTF? I don’t see lesbian in the title, do you? And I sure see a lot of posters that do not identify as lesbians posting here. Obviously, this person was only considering my profile as the OP and believing that that is who the thread is for. Jesus, I’ve even posted about some personal incidences with other lesbians that I found negative, especially towards a Transman friend of mine! Asshole, transphobic, anti-B-F lesbians exist. But, that isn’t going to change my sexual preference. I just have to tune-up as many as I can when they fuck with me or my trans friends. You know, educate….!!!

Like I said in the OP, as long as we remain civil, discuss whatever strikes you around all of this. I have to keep myself in check due to some of the hurtful crap that can happen and I think this fits for everyone. Sure, I've had my moments of anger, who hasn't? But, maybe we will get to a better way of communicating.

[DapperButch]

I too have been enjoying just how...pleasant it has all been. Really, really nice. And I would like it to remain the way it is.

BUT, I am a stickler for detail (lol) and with all due respect to others' opinions, I clearly remember a discussion (on this site), around Male Id'd Butches receiving male privilege. I remember it b/c it was so ludicrous. I remember one person asking, something along the lines of "And how exactly does the stranger know that the Butch identifies as male in order to give them male privilege?", or something like that.

I don't think that us not talking about the gender wars here is us being in denial. I also don't think that it is necessarily the calm before the storm. My hope is that some change has occurred in people's thinking and that there is more respect for the various masculine gender IDs and that things will be a bit different. My hope is that we will all do better in thinking before we react. My hope is that we all approach things assuming the intent is good from the poster.

P.S. I do not think that our Hug Fest will be complete unless Bull Dog joins us, though! :)

[Strappie]

I'm a Female ID'd Butch... I can't say I've ever heard or seen anyone saying "We are NOT anymore privileged then the next Id."

I feel everyone is equal in all aspect just that one might be strong than the next or more book smart or for that matter more street smart? Really why does every thing have to come down to "PRIVILEGES?"

[little man]

i have an ex-gf who used to tell me that i was too simplistic in my thinking. maybe she's right.

seems to me it'd be just fine if we'd just take one another for who we are and decide if we'd like to know each other any better. maybe a random pm here and there that just says, "hey, you seem like someone i'd like to know better."

some ppl i like, some ppl i don't like, and the rest i don't spend much time on either way. that's pretty much how my "real" life works.

i plan to be burdened with this "still life" i'm living for only a couple more years. once i'm debt free again, i'm hitting the road, going where the four winds blow me. when i travel, i tend to reach out to folks in whatever area i'm headed to so we can meet up and see how things go in a live situation. it's always a great treat for me, to hear the tone, inflection, nuance in a live conversation with people. i like getting that 'feel' for people by spending time with them and seeing their corner of this big ass planet.

for what it's worth...your mileage may vary.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Why can't people be people? Why can't we just all get along and celebrate who we are as we are. It is just that simple to me.

Andrew

[Ebon]

seems to me it'd be just fine if we'd just take one another for who we are and decide if we'd like to know each other any better. maybe a random pm here and there that just says, "hey, you seem like someone i'd like to know better."


Agreed!! Thank you. I understand labeling yourself and making sure other people understand it. If they don't take you as you are then eff em. The bird is the word! Meaning the middle finger.

[AtLast]

Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

[Corkey]

Ya' know it really comes down to listening to each other. We can't change who each one is, we have to accept. That's all there is to it. There is no war, what there is, is human behavior. There will always be personalities who don't get along, that's human. There will always be those who express themselves differently than another, and that's just fine (with me). What I don't want to see is our labels getting in the way of our humanity. I can agree to disagree, and still be (your) friend. I don't take (your) label and twist it into something that has no resemblance to who you say you are, that would be asinine. This is why I always look over <----- to see how one ID's. If it isn't there then I use gender neutral pronouns until I find out.
I will not always have in common (your) life experience, it doesn't mean I don't understand it, I just haven't lived it.
I will always have (your) back, we are all humans here living a human experience, how we interact is important. Let's try to understand each other and LISTEN. K?
Each and every one of you are important to me and this community, common ground is achievable.

[Dylan]

Ya' know it really comes down to listening to each other. We can't change who each one is, we have to accept. That's all there is to it. There is no war, what there is, is human behavior. There will always be personalities who don't get along, that's human. There will always be those who express themselves differently than another, and that's just fine (with me). What I don't want to see is our labels getting in the way of our humanity. I can agree to disagree, and still be (your) friend. I don't take (your) label and twist it into something that has no resemblance to who you say you are, that would be asinine. This is why I always look over <----- to see how one ID's. If it isn't there then I use gender neutral pronouns until I find out.
I will not always have in common (your) life experience, it doesn't mean I don't understand it, I just haven't lived it.
I will always have (your) back, we are all humans here living a human experience, how we interact is important. Let's try to understand each other and LISTEN. K?
Each and every one of you are important to me and this community, common ground is achievable.


Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

I think these two posts say a lot.

I have to be honest...from my ME place.

I don't see this thread accomplishing very much (no offense, Atlast). Perhaps I'm still jaded after the Borders And Bridges thread (before some of y'all's time...same premise basically..it went straight down the shitter and got really ugly, then created and even uglier spin off thread with some of the most transphobic and evil shit I've ever seen posted). Perhaps, I think it's just going to be a lot of the same old 'butch bonding' stuff that never really goes anywhere. Perhaps I think it'll just be a little smooth over kumbaya until the next eruption. And why do I think there'll be another eruption? Because of the two posts above. We don't listen, and because of that, we don't trust.

How do I know we don't listen?

Because I posted something that as a transman *happens*. The first response is a person outside the male ID telling me it doesn't happen. Met, of course you don't see it happen...you're not male ID'd. I wasn't *asking* you if it happened, I was telling you it happens. Another female ID'd butch says the same thing. Again...I wasn't asking if it happens...I'm telling you it happens. Just like y'all say male pronouns are the default. Another male ID'd butch says the same thing, and he's told (again), "Uh Uh, this doesn't happen." No offense, but um, just cuz you don't see it, it doesn't mean its not happening.
The other response was, "Yeah? It goes both ways, dude! Here's what WE deal with."

Now, I'm NOT rehashing this! I'm merely pointing oput how we DO NOT listen, and how that turns into the b.s. that takes place. This is why people don't feel heard, and this is how the distrust happens, and this is why it's always so ugly when the shit blows up.


Dylan

[Corkey]

Perhaps Dylan, we need to be clearer when we say these things. Time date stamp kinds of reality. I can't address stuff that happened before my time, I can only address what has happened during my time. I prefer to leave the dash site shit at the dash site and not bring it here. New beginnings and all. I am always willing to listen, and yes some harsh shit has happened, to all genders, not going to say it hasn't. However I want to try to have a new day, with us all having our say, our life experience just as we live it, in real time. Online is not always real to me, there are trolls, instigators and just some nasty humans who lurk and pounce. Yea those folks need to knock it off with the shit-pot-stir, it goes nowhere and frankly is annoying the hell out of me. I do think there is more in common we all have than our differences, and I would be honored to explore those commonalities with all of (you).

[waxnrope]

It feels like some strong contrasts here, and admittedly, I don't know nothing about the past or about "gender wars." But I hear/see some overtures of bonding going on, the kumbaya as Dylan says. Then, there's a "but wait" kind of thing, where the past, the ugly past is brought up over and over again. Whatever that past might be, whatever the pattern/s that exist, isn't it possible to try again, to move forward. Kumbaya used to make everyone feel kind of good, albeit, short term. Perhaps we can take the feel good, the apparent progress (and I don't know if this is progress, but it feels like it) and not forget the past explosions, but take that which is good and push forward ... never forgetting what it could become? I'm not sure if this makes any sense. I'm approaching the time of night that my brain slows way down, but I hope that you get at least some of what I'm saying.
I really am disturbed to hear about all of this, and had hoped that it was possible to bond with, and make friends with, some of the butches and transmen here. I don't care about how you ID, and hope that you feel the same about me. And, yeah, Corky, we are just friggin' humans in the final count.

[Ebon]

"Perhaps, I think it's just going to be a lot of the same old 'butch bonding' stuff that never really goes anywhere. Perhaps I think it'll just be a little smooth over kumbaya until the next eruption."


Dylan

It's like you're expecting something bad to happen. From my life experience the thoughts that you put out is what the universe gives back. The OP was inclusive of all of us, butch/transmen. I think if anyone of us saw someone being transphobic they would be reported. Otherwise the thread would be hypocritical. I don't even know what Dash is aside from that shit my aunt used to sprinkle on her vegetables. I think everyone here has good intentions.

[Dylan]

Organic, I certainly didn't say people didn't have good intentions.

I have never seen a 'butch bonding' thread EVER go anywhere.

I don't understand your dash reference


Yeah, I Watched The Secret Too,
Dylan...will come back to this thread when an acceptable topic of conversation has been agreed upon, because I'm really not up for the, "What should we talk about...no, I don't like that topic...how 'bout? No! Come on, let's just bond!" game that's going on now.

[Corkey]

I think Dylan you are selling folks short. What is it YOU would like to talk about? or do you just want to continue to kavetch about the past?

[TenderKnight]

I don't understand your dash reference




"The Dash Site" in refrence to another site that a lot of the folks here including the owners of this site belong to or did belong to..

I'm not sure where the term "Dash" came from.. *shrugs*

OK, I'm game.. here is a topic..

We were talking a bit about dating "morals" and "ethics".. What do you consider a "cock block", the act of getting in the way of a potintial partner or hook up? Have you done it? Have you seen it done? How do you react? Do you just hate the term's guts and can't be bothered with thinking about it? Is there really even such a thing as "cock blocking", or is just a way to cover up being insecure?

I'm just throwing that one out there because I think that it may be a common ground that we can relate to.. Good bad or indiffrent.

Maybe tell a funny story in relation to?

On a deeper level, I realize how this can be seen as the stereotypical "frat boy" talk, but it doesn't have to be.. It can be what we make it. If the topic is uncalled for by the thread, feel free to ignore it and carry on.. lol.. I just think it could be fun..

-Tony

PS- "cock block" is not a term owned by male ID's in my head.. Kind of like the "cock on the walk" type of thing *shrugs* Just don't want people thinking that I'm just catering to tha boi/ys :)

[BullDog]

P.S. I do not think that our Hug Fest will be complete unless Bull Dog joins us, though! :)

LOL Dapper- here is your hug. Cyber hugs for all around and if any of you are ever in Portland, Oregon look me up and you can have real life hugs if you want. Yes I do hug butches and open doors for them too, lol.

I have never considered myself to be in any sort of war. I speak up for what I believe in and have butch and trans friends of all gender persuasions. There are plenty of trans guys and male id butches I know who are not the least bit upset with what I say and don't think I am trashing them. I'm good with where I stand.

Best wishes on your butch bonding.

I have real life butch friends to bond with and real life butch femme socials to attend. Pride is this week in Portland and I have 39 more websites to still put up before I really get to work on my 100 plus websites on top of my two jobs.

best wishes to all,

BullDog

p.s. AtLast- you have a heart of gold and what you are trying to do is awesome. I hope you make it back to Portland for a visit soon- and my little French buddy!

[Ebon]

"The Dash Site" in refrence to another site that a lot of the folks here including the owners of this site belong to or did belong to..

I'm not sure where the term "Dash" came from.. *shrugs*

OK, I'm game.. here is a topic..

We were talking a bit about dating "morals" and "ethics".. What do you consider a "cock block", the act of getting in the way of a potintial partner or hook up? Have you done it? Have you seen it done? How do you react? Do you just hate the term's guts and can't be bothered with thinking about it? Is there really even such a thing as "cock blocking", or is just a way to cover up being insecure?

I'm just throwing that one out there because I think that it may be a common ground that we can relate to.. Good bad or indiffrent.

Maybe tell a funny story in relation to?

On a deeper level, I realize how this can be seen as the stereotypical "frat boy" talk, but it doesn't have to be.. It can be what we make it. If the topic is uncalled for by the thread, feel free to ignore it and carry on.. lol.. I just think it could be fun..

-Tony

PS- "cock block" is not a term owned by male ID's in my head.. Kind of like the "cock on the walk" type of thing *shrugs* Just don't want people thinking that I'm just catering to tha boi/ys :)

I don't think I have ever really been cock blocked I have to think about that a little more. I have totally done it though. lol For her own protection though I wouldn't let anyone hook up with this friend of mine in good conscious. He's a hound dog, goes after anything that gives him attention. She was a nice woman so hopefully I saved her some heartache.

[AtLast]

Just going to add to my own post as I really don’t want to over post as the OP. This is everyone’s thread.

But some of the discussion about listening and trust building brought to wounding and just how deep and long-term wounds from other/prior thread - even in a different site- can fester. Seems human to me, really. I have some of these wounds and I know that it can take a long time to process these and get to the other side with them. It really does involve trust; especially online for me.

Some of the more controversial issues might get side stepped until people just feel like they can handle posting anything. And they ,might just have to do their own internal/personal healing or even forgiving processes before taking a chance. I don’t think there is a thing wrong with this.

Hopefully, this thread will take a new direction in the bonding/friendship department. Hope so. But, my guess is that all of us are going to have to walk on tip toes some until we get to a place that our own wounds immediately take over. There is no way I would have even started the thread if I had not tried to put a lot of things in perspective (and certainly not just my own perspectives).

LOL… you bet, I have to tell myself… hey, you don’t know what that person really means, if you don’t ask for clarification. So, shut-up, and try to get them and don’t make a dogging post- from the hip.

I agree there are issues that are deeply rooted that we need to deal with… but I am so into letting people take their own time with things and not jumping to conclusions because of past threads and discussions. Not an easy task!

It might be that the thread dies for a bit and then gets bumped and this could happen off and on just due to how we all need to pace ourselves. I actually believe that the hard stuff will get talked about… in the right time and trust frame…



Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

[Kosmo]

Here is the issue for me: I have none. I've never been wounded. I can only speak from an observers point of view. While this may not help the discussion and may seem naive, I would like to know what we have in common.

What I am impressed with is that other folks, like femmes, can delve into some insightful stuff. They look inside of themselves to find those hurts and where they might originate from. They have discussions, they give support and help others find a voice even when they don't agree. They have a bonding that I'm a little envious of.

I'm very confident about who I am, but the world can look so alien to me as I look upon it from my vantage point. At times I feel invisible. Just me alone with my identity and at times I feel like all eyes are on me. Trying to figure me out. How do you find your comfort zone in the world?

Sometimes I see us as phantoms. Coming and going almost stealthily and blending in until that moment when you notice that someone 'sees' you.

[AtLast]

Here is the issue for me: I have none. I've never been wounded. I can only speak from an observers point of view. While this may not help the discussion and may seem naive, I would like to know what we have in common.

What I am impressed with is that other folks, like femmes, can delve into some insightful stuff. They look inside of themselves to find those hurts and where they might originate from. They have discussions, they give support and help others find a voice even when they don't agree. They have a bonding that I'm a little envious of.

I'm very confident about who I am, but the world can look so alien to me as I look upon it from my vantage point. At times I feel invisible. Just me alone with my identity and at times I feel like all eyes are on me. Trying to figure me out. How do you find your comfort zone in the world?

Sometimes I see us as phantoms. Coming and going almost stealthily and blending in until that moment when you notice that someone 'sees' you.


This is very true for me, too. I see femmes do this often... the support, the help in finding a voice. And respecting the voices of others. Sure, they disagree, but, the end results look so different to me than among us most of the time. They seem to be able to put aside so much that honestly, gets in our way all of the time. There is some tough stuff being discussed by them in the femme side of this thread, yet, I sense honest interchanges that can get through the BS in the end. They own their own shit, I think. I know, I can't generalize, but, I really do connect with your point, here.

I think you also bring up something else very important - self-confidence. This can be mis-read as arrogance, but it isn't. It's just plain healthy, self-knowledge with no need for defensiveness. Not so easy to develop, but a damn good goal!

Shit, I was going to be quiet...

:cigar2:

[Ebon]

This is very true for me, too. I see femmes do this often... the support, the help in finding a voice. And respecting the voices of others. Sure, they disagree, but, the end results look so different to me than among us most of the time. They seem to be able to put aside so much that honestly, gets in our way all of the time. There is some tough stuff being discussed by them in the femme side of this thread, yet, I sense honest interchanges that can get through the BS in the end. They own their own shit, I think. I know, I can't generalize, but, I really do connect with your point, here.

I think you also bring up something else very important - self-confidence. This can be mis-read as arrogance, but it isn't. It's just plain healthy, self-knowledge with no need for defensiveness. Not so easy to develop, but a damn good goal!

Shit, I was going to be quiet...

:cigar2:

I think someone else mentioned having confidence or a strong sense of self. I have a very strong sense of self. I am not perfect but I don't hold on to things and if someone tries to make me feel bad or say something snarky because of or about who I am, I chalk it up to them having the problem not me. Then its automatically off of my shoulders and out of my mind. There is a lot less stress in my life because of it. Now if someone is making a valid point about my actions then I will change them or work on changing myself. Otherwise I just go with the flow and if I don't like the flow, I find another flow to hop into.

[Kosmo]

How do you find your balance in the world? Your center?

I used to watch people as I moved about. I think to see if they looked at me, you know? Waiting for some reaction to my presence in their world.
Now I only look forward and while I feel people watch me, it's empowering to simply move with confidence, like I'm moving in normal speed and the world around me is moving in slow motion.

I'll walk in a women's washroom, grab a stall, wash my hands and shake them, maybe run my damp hands through my hair (if I'm wearing a hat) and then walk out. I'm making more of an effort to take my space in the world. Move about it because it's also mine. Not caring who's looking or even what they're saying.

I was recently walking towards a women's washroom and a guy (waiting for wife and daughter) said to me, 'that's the ladies room'. I ignored him and didn't miss a beat. I feel no need to acknowledge such comments. It's my world also and I'm staking more of a claim to it.

I define Butch. Masculine and feminine. I take what I want from both and add a few ingredients to define me. As I grow into myself, I may or may not adjust the recipe.

[AtLast]

BUMP!

:blink:

[DomnNC]

I don't know how many of you get the Logo tv station which is a GLBT station. Here is a link to a story on Robert Eads, a transgender male, and his struggle with ovarian cancer and not being able to get quality healthcare. He lives in a small town in rural Georgia. It's a powerful story. This link is for the full length story. There are some other amazing transgender stories at this website as well.

http://www.logotv.com/video/southern-comfort/1585368/playlist.jhtml

[Jet]

I don't jive with anyone here as a TG/Transmen. I view things very differently. But I appreciate your intent and hope other folks will benefit.

[DapperButch]

I don't know how many of you get the Logo tv station which is a GLBT station. Here is a link to a story on Robert Eads, a transgender male, and his struggle with ovarian cancer and not being able to get quality healthcare. He lives in a small town in rural Georgia. It's a powerful story. This link is for the full length story. There are some other amazing transgender stories at this website as well.

http://www.logotv.com/video/southern-comfort/1585368/playlist.jhtml


Yes, it is a very powerful story. I'm glad you posted it up.

[friskyfemme]

Hi,
I just wanted to share with you a terrific documentary called 'Two Spirits'. If you're interested go to: twospirits.org

I was particularly drawn to this because I lived on the Navajo Reservation for awhile.

I invite you to invite others to see the film and open discussions.

[Linus]

**bump**

Because none of us experience life alone and just one way.

[SelfMadeMan]

Great thread... it hurts my heart that there is such a wall sometimes between Butches and transmen - not in all cases, but far too often. We all have the right to walk through this life our own way, and we each have a wonderful, important story.

[chefhmboyrd]

i loves me some butches.
i have many butch friends, i think it is the same with any group or dynamic,
haters gonna hate
i am an easy going guy and i don't have an issue with anyone's choices.
i have experienced some uncomfortable situations, but i attribute it to the other person's attitude and shrug it off.
what others think of me and my choices belongs to them.