Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't think this will be an easy conversation, hell it may be a hard one but I do feel one that must be had. I also felt it needed to be out of the thread that AtlastHome made, yes I am aware it includes everyone, yet I feel if femme's go in there it will change it due to sometimes it turns into a pick up zone or flirt zone. This is a thread that can do some good hence the start of this one. I am also aware I may get my ass handed to me.

*deep breath*

How do we support in the building of friendships between the butches and transmen in our community?

I hope we can be honest and transparent in this convo.

[waxnrope]

I don't think that anyone should, um, handle your arse, Lady Snow. just saying (I've caught myself agreeing with you of late) ... I think that it's a idea good to have a "butch/transmen only" thread (even though AtLast invited everyone ...) it seems to me, in my limited time and experiences here, that when femmes enter, our dynamics shift or change somewhat. And no, I'm too tired to give examples. 'sides, it is always a "feeling" that I have when reading posts. Nuanced ...

And yes, we should also have this discussion open and here ... and as well as having Atlast's or another thread as a place, a zone, where butch/transmen, etc. can bond and talk ... it has already done a good thing for me ... I have new friends!

I just reread this and I'm not sure that I've made a lick of sense ... it's time for my pup's walk!

[blush]

Hi, Lady Snow!
Are you asking this question to femmes or to butches and transmen? Or is it an open question for both groups?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Hi, Lady Snow!
Are you asking this question to femmes or to butches and transmen? Or is it an open question for both groups?


I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

[SuperFemme]

I'm struggling to come up with a response to this thread.

I have answers and they are not popular.

I have to wonder if sometimes Femmes don't benefit from building fences rather than bridges. Why? Because then we get to go in and cheerlead and champion and nurture.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm struggling to come up with a response to this thread.

I have answers and they are not popular.

I have to wonder if sometimes Femmes don't benefit from building fences rather than bridges. Why? Because then we get to go in and cheerlead and champion and nurture.


I am fully aware that some thoughts and opinions that will be expressed here will not be popular ones...

I am not ashamed to say I have done nothing to stop this as I watch it happen or hear it or see it.

I sit back and do nothing or keep quiet so I am not the constant cunt.

Today I am ok with that, and yes SF I do feel we femmes cause A LOT of tall fences when it comes to dividing these two groups.

NOT all femme's, but some of us do.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Play Dates. lol


You realize your idea of play dates and my idea of play dates are probably totally the opposite...

:praying:

[SuperFemme]

Play Dates. lol


:|:|:|:|:|

[waxnrope]

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

oh! sorry, I misinterpreted your intent. this, then, is a thread for femmes, right. I'll just read respectfully and keep to the other thread then.
Thanks for clarifying ...

[The_Lady_Snow]

oh! sorry, I misinterpreted your intent. this, then, is a thread for femmes, right. I'll just read respectfully and keep to the other thread then.
Thanks for clarifying ...

I just figured you would want the space in the other thread...

I was not sure how to handle it, I am ok if you are here, if everyone else is.

[Nat]

I always thought it was cool that the UK butch femme transguy site has

A space for Butches and Transguys to discuss identities and issues relating to them, they often overlap. Femmes are welcome in this room but must refrain from posting in threads where Femmes are requested not to do so.

and

A space for Femmes to discuss identities and issues relating to them. Butches and Transguys are welcome in this room but must refrain from posting in threads where Butches and Transguys are requested not to do so.

Because I think there are potentially times when people of different identities may need a bit of sanctuary while working stuff out about their/our IDs.

[Nat]

I just figured you would want the space in the other thread...

I was not sure how to handle it, I am ok if you are here, if everyone else is.

I have no objections but I haven't read the other thread :) I find the subject of this thread to be very compelling as a stand-alone and I'm very much looking forward to reading it.

[SuperFemme]

I am fully aware that some thoughts and opinions that will be expressed here will not be popular ones...

I am not ashamed to say I have done nothing to stop this as I watch it happen or hear it or see it.

I sit back and do nothing or keep quiet so I am not the constant cunt.

Today I am ok with that, and yes SF I do feel we femmes cause A LOT of tall fences when it comes to dividing these two groups.

NOT all femme's, but some of us do.


No really.

Do you know what I am talking about?

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So let's grab this topic by the balls and discuss it.

I have experienced it and seen it the one minute we date a butch then we date a transperson.

We are bitter after the break up and we dog the other gender presentation to make us feel good.

Example:

Mariano was so abusive, he would scream in my ear and I would be terrorized cause you know he is on *whispering* T

or

Kelly was so not butch, she wanted me to go down on her YUCK, not like Marianno who is a real mans man.

(Marianno and Kelly are fictional characters)

[The_Lady_Snow]

No really.

Do you know what I am talking about?

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

Yes....

Someone I know calls it....

Lemme think of the word

Placating

I agree

It is really oogey

[SuperFemme]

I have never ever seen a real live case of this so called rhoid rage.

I HAVE seen the gender tear down, and it's ugly.

[Sam]

Example:

Mariano was so abusive, he would scream in my ear and I would be terrorized cause you know he is on *whispering* T

or

Kelly was so not butch, she wanted me to go down on her YUCK, not like Marianno who is a real mans man.

(Marianno and Kelly are fictional characters)

Abuse, screaming and rage is always a stereotype foe Anyone that dates a transguy, because they always use T as an excuse.

Not every transguy experiences the same side effects from T. I get one side effect, after my shot i usually get a headache. Same thing after 3 years on T, oh little bit of led foot too

i know im not suppose to be here, but i get what your saying. squeeze the balls harder

[The_Lady_Snow]

Abuse, screaming and rage is always a stereotype foe Anyone that dates a transguy, because they always use T as an excuse.

Not every transguy experiences the same side effects from T. I get one side effect, after my shot i usually get a headache. Same thing after 3 years on T, oh little bit of led foot too

i know im not suppose to be here, but i get what your saying. squeeze the balls harder


So I gotta ask

WTF with the balls comment?

[Sam]

So I gotta ask

WTF with the balls comment?

Topic by the balls, squeeze the topic. nothing personal. scooting out of here.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Topic by the balls, squeeze the topic. nothing personal. scooting out of here.


I am gonna clean my answer up because I don't like giving June a headache..

So lemme make it clear ok?

You and I, ain't homies, we ain't tight...

So, those kinda of comments, keep em to yourself a'ight?

Thank you for listening.

[SuperFemme]

oy vey.

where were we?

[Sam]

I am gonna clean my answer up because I don't like giving June a headache..

So lemme make it clear ok?

You and I, ain't homies, we ain't tight...

So, those kinda of comments, keep em to yourself a'ight?

Thank you for listening.

No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!

[The_Lady_Snow]

No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!


Thank you for the correction.

You done petting me in the head?

Cause this is what this feels like, you exerting your privi on me

I am not liking it

So please

Back to topic?

[DapperButch]

oh! sorry, I misinterpreted your intent. this, then, is a thread for femmes, right. I'll just read respectfully and keep to the other thread then.
Thanks for clarifying ...

No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!

I think we should leave the femmes to their thread.

I personally appreciated it when Snow suggested that we just keep our thread butch/trans as she saw that this made the most sense, due to the originally stated goal of the thread.

If this is what you want, Snow, maybe it would be more clear cut if you moved it to the Femme Zone?

I guess I kind of assumed that AtLast put her thread in the Relationships, Communities, and Groups forum so that she did not have to choose between the butch or trans zone, since it is for both groups of people.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I think we should leave the femmes to their thread.

I personally appreciated it when Snow suggested that we just keep our thread butch/trans as she saw that this made the most sense.

If this is what you want, Snow, maybe it would be more clear cut if you moved it to the Femme Zone?

I guess I kind of assumed that AtLast put her thread in the Relationships, Communities, and Groups forum so that she did not have to choose between the butch or trans zone.


Well no, my intent was for it to be here.... I think it sucks that I have to go into Femme Zone.

I don't want to go tag base just to feel safe

Make sense?

[DapperButch]

Well no, my intent was for it to be here.... I think it sucks that I have to go into Femme Zone.

I don't want to go tag base just to feel safe

Make sense?

Absolutely. And now I will take my leave. :-)

ETA: And you also did say that it was for anyone other than those that identify as Butches or Transmen (so maybe that is another reason why you wouldn't want it in the femme zone).

[The_Lady_Snow]

oy vey.

where were we?

I hope there are more participants then just us two...

:praying:

[blush]

This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.

[The_Lady_Snow]

This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.

It's not a trap..

It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it..

We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen..

I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that?


It does happen...

I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone.

Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence

Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap?

Please?

[amiyesiam]

Hi, interesting topic.
Before finding the on line sites
I had no clue
sometimes ignorance is bliss
I have seen what you are talking about some
but then I don't know a lot of people in real time
nor do I talk to most on the phone.

But I have seen it.


when I first started hearing about this I was shocked
so my take on it
1. female/male ided butches and transmen are adults
as such they can take care of themselves
2. the idea of trashing someone based on their Id sickens me
it says more about the person doing the talking than the person being
trashed.
3. when I see it happen. I stay out of it. I do not feel it is my job to stand up for another adult. They can do that for themselves.
4. and as I will always say: humans are humans first, everything else comes after.

[SuperFemme]

This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.

aren't we part of that community by virtue of who we love?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Hi, interesting topic.
Before finding the on line sites
I had no clue
sometimes ignorance is bliss
I have seen what you are talking about some
but then I don't know a lot of people in real time
nor do I talk to most on the phone.

But I have seen it.


when I first started hearing about this I was shocked
so my take on it
1. female/male ided butches and transmen are adults
as such they can take care of themselves
2. the idea of trashing someone based on their Id sickens me
it says more about the person doing the talking than the person being
trashed.
3. when I see it happen. I stay out of it. I do not feel it is my job to stand up for another adult. They can do that for themselves.
4. and as I will always say: humans are humans first, everything else comes after.


I stay out of it too, but then again I am sexually fluid, my attraction to people is not based just solely on gender or gender presentation. So for me and this is just Snow speaking for Snow.

I like em all to be frank.

So to put someone down cause you are now with the other becomes divisive.

I am certainly not speakin for anyone, and know that people can handle their own stuff.

Hence the conception of this thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

aren't we part of that community by virtue of who we love?


desire, fuck, partner with, hang out with, play with, etc etc.

[Martina]

i'd like to participate, but i kinda feel like i may be one of the people SF was talking about in the post about speaking for butches and that Snow meant when talking about building fences. i hope i never speak for a butch. i have no idea what it's like to be a butch. But i have gotten embroiled in a number of the discussions re the position of female-identified butches on this site and the other.

i feel like i am speaking from my experience of what i have seen.

i definitely know i am not participating to get the approval of a butch or catch her/hys/his attention.

i imagine that people might think i am one of the people building the fences between the two groups. i know that is not my intent.

Maybe i have spent too much time on chat and heard too many femmes refuse to honor a butch's chosen pronouns of she/her and talk about being a true femme and dating only real butches -- and we all know what that stuff means.

i just got fed up. And i saw a lot of sexism in it. And it bothered me.

i hope i have not built fences. But i just really dislike the sexist and homophobic elements in our culture, and i can't seem to ignore them.

So the effect has been that i have stirred some shit in those threads.

How can i influence people to build bridges? i honestly don't know.

i think calling other femmes on their heteronormative bullshit is a first step. That creates some hostility and resentment between groups.

i don't see myself as a support for any category of people on this site or in the butch-femme community. i really basically stand up when i feel something is unfair or needs to be said.

[SuperFemme]

good points martina.

lets talk about that. let's be brave.

why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns?

how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are?

how can we honor each other in that process?

[blush]

It's not a trap..

It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it..

We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen..

I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that?


It does happen...

I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone.

Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence

Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap?

Please?

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

[Arwen]

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

Please don't feel shitty. I'm one of those that does this. I've also taken heat for admitting I'm lazy about pronouns. I chose not to defend myself because a lot was said that was true even though a lot was said that was not true.

I tend to take up for the transguy. Part of that is because I feel like some people put them down for not staying in the role of butch lesbian. Part of that is because I have an over-inflated sense of self-worth and think my opinion matters.

This thing about fences...I can see that.

This thing about it not being my job to foster friendship/community between the transguys and the butches...that was my first response when I read this thread.

Then I went back to the idea of fences. I need to gnaw on that a bit. I want to say that I don't do that, but then again, maybe I do somehow. Hiroshima was my fault too.

I guess, for me, I need to know what does community look like for the transguy and what does it look like for the butch. Is it that different? Is it divided into transguys who fully transition and transguys who don't and transguys who really don't define themselves by what body parts they do or don't have? Is it divided between masculine-id butches and female-id butches and butches who don't give a rat's ass as long as they can be who they are?

How do I as a Femme fit into this? What is my responsibility?

I think that my only responsibility is to work on my own hula hoop and stop speaking for others even if I really do know better then they do what they want to say. (that's self-directed sarcasm for all the Arwen-haters, k?)

I think I need to be friends with and not worry about what others choose to identify as. I am working on not being lazy (even in my own head) about pronouns. I never meant that in a disrespectful way. It was self-deprecating and, for what it's worth, more honest than I guess I should have been.:canoworms:And I have NEVER intentionally disrespected anyone's choice of pronoun. In fact, it's a habit of mine to just ask someone what they want to be called.

I really want to talk more about this idea of fences. Do you really think we (generic) are trying to cut those non-femmes into smaller groups so it's easier to find the ones we are attracted to? Am I understanding you correctly or going off on a wild Arwen tangent?

[SuperFemme]

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I wish you'd give commentary about a femme perspective. Oh please.

[The_Lady_Snow]

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

This would be a great place to be able to do that! I get it Grant and I have convos about this all the time...

I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective....

This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread.

Make sense?

[Arwen]

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I so get this, blush. I think that is what I felt too. I also see that there is a bigger (or maybe smaller) picture here in the idea of femmes who speak on behalf of one group or another. Why do we do that? Is it a protective thing? I know for me it can be.

Because I know and love transmen, I get really riled at perceived slights. And, that's not mine to get riled over...or is it? Here is where I get really wishy-washy. :)

[amiyesiam]

good points martina.

lets talk about that. let's be brave.

why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns?

why? to cut. to hurt. to demean. to humiliate.

how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are?

this is not rocket science. It is not ok to be mean. (period, no comma, no and, no except, no but.) Just one sentence: It is not ok to be mean.

how can we honor each other in that process?

Ya know I just gotta vent
I am not smarter or wiser or better than anyone else
WAKE UP people
sometimes a body just has to shut up
close their mouths
keep their thoughts to themselves
we can not read others minds
we don't know their intent
AND if you think you do know, question your own god complex
humans are complex
sometimes we don't even know WHY we do the things we do
how do we honor each other?
my gosh be nice
accept others just like you want to be accepted
assume the best about each other not the worst

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know if it is a protective thing, cause lemme tell you there are a few times I wanted to go in and drag Grant out of a thread cause of how I felt.

My dynamics with him say I can, I don't because his voice is strong and important and should be heard

Just like anyone elses...

I don't need to go in and mother and cater and fawn over anyone, can I be an ally

FUCK yes..

Can I do it in a way that is productive and not so oogey?

Yes

[SuperFemme]

I have a lot I want to say, but my fever is around 102 right now and I am having a hard time forming cognitive thoughts.

My favorite thoughts swirling around in my head right now have to do with hula hoops and assuming the best about people, not the worst.

I think as Femmes we have a better ability to lift each other up when the chips are down.

I want to be clear that everyones voice matters in this conversation. We are all part of this community sans the fences, and are all inter-connected in one way or another. So our voices matter.

I'm going to lay down now, but I'll be back with thoughts on hula hoops and assuming the best tomorrow. :blueheels:

[blush]

This would be a great place to be able to do that! I get it Grant and I have convos about this all the time...

I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective....

This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread.

Make sense?

I wish you'd give commentary about a femme perspective. Oh please.

Thanks for the feedback, I think I understand the intent of the thread more now.

Thinking about my femme perspective...

[blush]

Please don't feel shitty. I'm one of those that does this. I've also taken heat for admitting I'm lazy about pronouns. I chose not to defend myself because a lot was said that was true even though a lot was said that was not true.

This thing about it not being my job to foster friendship/community between the transguys and the butches...that was my first response when I read this thread.


I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

[Arwen]

I don't need to go in and mother and cater and fawn over anyone, can I be an ally

FUCK yes..

Can I do it in a way that is productive and not so oogey?

Yes

Ally is one of THOSE words for me. I've been flat out told I can't call myself a trans-ally by someone. You will see that I ran with that. NOT.

What is an ally?

Interesting. I just went to look up the definition which is "to unite or form a connection between." Which I sort of knew but I did not know that the word stems from a word that means to bind.

So is an ally someone you bind yourself with in order to prove a connection?

[Arwen]

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

Blanche, I get this. I think, for me, this could be a step in healing our own femme community.

Because...if we are helping to build fences, then in some way, we have to be standing on one side or the other of that fence from one another.

Don't we?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?


I think they will talk about it in the other thread, about how we are influental.

I think it is all tied together, we all are, and how we behave about one another.

[blush]

I so get this, blush. I think that is what I felt too. I also see that there is a bigger (or maybe smaller) picture here in the idea of femmes who speak on behalf of one group or another. Why do we do that? Is it a protective thing? I know for me it can be.

Because I know and love transmen, I get really riled at perceived slights. And, that's not mine to get riled over...or is it? Here is where I get really wishy-washy. :)

Yeah, I'm rabidly protective. Oh, the posts I've started and deleted...and the ones I should have deleted but posted instead...

[blush]

I think it is all tied together, we all are, and how we behave about one another.

Good point, that is very true.

[blush]

Blanche, I get this. I think, for me, this could be a step in healing our own femme community.

Because...if we are helping to build fences, then in some way, we have to be standing on one side or the other of that fence from one another.

Don't we?


Annie, you're right. Good point.

Truly, I'm laughing super hard right now.

[Nat]

I've been rabidly protective before when I have seen a person cry over their frustration over a thread. I have a really strong protective streak. I have figured out (am figuring out still) that it's not appropriate in most cases for me to run with it when I'm feeling protective of other adults who are perfectly capable of having their own voices and using them.

I'm trying harder these days, if nothing else, to listen to, understand and support other femmes (and myself) at least to an equal degree as other IDs.

[blush]

I've been rabidly protective before when I have seen a person cry over their frustration over a thread. I have a really strong protective streak. I have figured out (am figuring out still) that it's not appropriate in most cases for me to run with it when I'm feeling protective of other adults who are perfectly capable of having their own voices and using them.

I'm trying harder these days, if nothing else, to listen to, understand and support other femmes (and myself) at least to an equal degree as other IDs.

I'm thinking about this protective thing. My intent is not to remove agency from grown-ass adults, but to add to their already existing agency. To double the power.

[Oneida]

So let's grab this topic by the balls and discuss it.


Regarding this thread: a femme's influence on the friendships between butches and transmen" and hit a roadblock almost immediately.

Snow, why did Sam get "chastised" for using the word "balls" with respect to getting the conversation going? I really need to understand that before I can get into the spirit/participate in this thead.

Thanks

[MsMerrick]

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

Exactly ....
I don't believe in taking responsibility for others woes..
I also don't take on responsibility for those that do..

[The_Lady_Snow]

Regarding this thread: a femme's influence on the friendships between butches and transmen" and hit a roadblock almost immediately.

Snow, why did Sam get "chastised" for using the word "balls" with respect to getting the conversation going? I really need to understand that before I can get into the spirit/participate in this thead.

Thanks


Did I use the word balls????

Lemme go check all my posts ok before I answer this and honestly I need to make sure I don't piss a moderator off before answering this honeslty

Gimme a few to re read myself and stuff

Thanks

[The_Lady_Snow]

So let's grab this topic by the balls and discuss it.

I have experienced it and seen it the one minute we date a butch then we date a transperson.

We are bitter after the break up and we dog the other gender presentation to make us feel good.

Example:

Mariano was so abusive, he would scream in my ear and I would be terrorized cause you know he is on *whispering* T

or

Kelly was so not butch, she wanted me to go down on her YUCK, not like Marianno who is a real mans man.

(Marianno and Kelly are fictional characters)


Here is where I used the wording balls, and lemme tell you I had to go find my proverbial huevos for me to even start this thread, cause I am fully aware when I started the thread I knew that I may have my ass handed to me. I am also fully aware my loud mouth and my loud opinions and well that makes me unpopular and to be honest A LOT of assumptions are made about me. To be honest I don't even know what to say to you than be honest, I can't believe I am having to defend myself but I will.

So I gotta ask

WTF with the balls comment?

This is what I said and here is why.

We ain't tight....

I don't like undertones, I don't like how someone uses my kid to make convo with me, I don't like manipulation, Sam and I aren't friendly like that.



Topic by the balls, squeeze the topic. nothing personal. scooting out of here.

BTW the part I just highlited Sam added after I commented

I am gonna clean my answer up because I don't like giving June a headache..

So lemme make it clear ok?

You and I, ain't homies, we ain't tight...

So, those kinda of comments, keep em to yourself a'ight?

Thank you for listening.


I thought I was clear about how I felt with his over familiarity.

No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!

I was NOT stereotyping Sam, I was making it clear we aren't familiar funny though how I get called out for being snarky but Sam does not?

Thank you for the correction.

You done petting me in the head?

Cause this is what this feels like, you exerting your privi on me

I am not liking it

So please

Back to topic?

I am going to be honest I can't believe that I am having to defend my space, my words, and how I feel..

Thought I do think it is a perfect example of how we as femme's influence things in the long run.

If you need any further explanation for participation can you please pm me, and hand me my ass so that we can continue this.

[JustJo]

Hi everyone :rrose:

I don't have a whole lot to contribute to this convo because I'm so new to this community...I simply haven't seen alot of the behavior that you're discussing. However, I'm all about building bridges instead of fences...pretty much everywhere.

The one thing that's jumping out for me is when we talk about being allies...because, for me, an ally has essentially picked a side and chosen to support one over the other. To me, that's divisive.

Much of my professional work is as a liaison...I bring diverse people together to work on common projects. I don't see myself as an ally of any group. I am the bridge...myself...and the most important thing I do is foster communication between them, rather than talking myself.

Just a thought...

[SuperFemme]

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

I don't think Femme's have diverse pronoun usage to worry about. Or even so much diverse gender presentation. So we get a little taken for granted IMO. To me that translates into us doing a lot of work around making sure that the butches and trans folk around us are comfy. Over the last 5-7 years it has become kind of auto-pilot. That is where we get into trouble with laziness of language choices ya think?

I HAVE seen our counterparts care when it comes to things like oh say...Stone Femme. Even then the shit hits the fan and a consensus cannot be reached on a definition. My question to everyone is this: Do we need healing within the Femme community to the same degree or are we intertwined with the butch and trans communities?


Ally is one of THOSE words for me. I've been flat out told I can't call myself a trans-ally by someone. You will see that I ran with that. NOT.

What is an ally?

Interesting. I just went to look up the definition which is "to unite or form a connection between." Which I sort of knew but I did not know that the word stems from a word that means to bind.

So is an ally someone you bind yourself with in order to prove a connection?

Well. Hmphf! Nobody gets to tell you what you are. That is reedickulous. Also, if you bind yourself with somebody in order to prove a connection with them you need therapy, not the label of an ally.

With that being said, I also think that it's a fine line between ally and appropriation.

Blanche, I get this. I think, for me, this could be a step in healing our own femme community.

Because...if we are helping to build fences, then in some way, we have to be standing on one side or the other of that fence from one another.

Don't we?


Yes. Fences are so hard to climb, and the electric ones frizz your hair. Bridges on the other hand let you cross over and visit for a while. It's a tricky thing not to build fences when you think you are building bridges. One gives you a clear view of the other side and one blocks your view.

Let's say that Cal starts testosterone and I run around making rhoid rage jokes in all the threads. I am erecting fences, am I not? If instead I thoughtfully answer any questions that people might ask me? I am building bridges, right?

Or if Cal goes into a thread and speaks about his experience and T and then somebody disputes it? If I wait for Cal to come back in and answer I am building bridges. If I go in and say this is what Cal meant, and you all don't understand Cal blahblahblah.....I am erecting fences.

Ack. Am I even making sense? I hope so. I am still not feeling well and I don't know if these are good examples.


I think they will talk about it in the other thread, about how we are influental.

I think it is all tied together, we all are, and how we behave about one another.

Bingo! Yes, that is what I am trying to speak to above.

Yeah, I'm rabidly protective. Oh, the posts I've started and deleted...and the ones I should have deleted but posted instead...

Yes. It is great to be protective. I have to wonder at what point do we protect ourselves? What point do we sit on our hands and not jump in but instead let those we love hash it out? I often struggle with this.

I've been rabidly protective before when I have seen a person cry over their frustration over a thread. I have a really strong protective streak. I have figured out (am figuring out still) that it's not appropriate in most cases for me to run with it when I'm feeling protective of other adults who are perfectly capable of having their own voices and using them.

I'm trying harder these days, if nothing else, to listen to, understand and support other femmes (and myself) at least to an equal degree as other IDs.

Yes. I have had to learn the hard way. At what point am I complicit in the cycle of othering? Of not letting somebody I love figure it out? Of speaking for another human being and taking their voice away?

Regarding this thread: a femme's influence on the friendships between butches and transmen" and hit a roadblock almost immediately.

Snow, why did Sam get "chastised" for using the word "balls" with respect to getting the conversation going? I really need to understand that before I can get into the spirit/participate in this thead.

Thanks

No disrespect meant to you Oneida, but what is the raodblock you find yourself hitting? How is it that you perceived Sam being chastised when he was asked for clarification around using the word "balls"?

I think that this is an example of how we as Femmes can take ownership of things that belong to butchs/trans people and in the process inadvertently build fences rather than bridges.

I'm not picking on you, I swear. I really just want you to understand it in the spirit of what the thread is about. :rrose:

Exactly ....
I don't believe in taking responsibility for others woes..
I also don't take on responsibility for those that do..

Thank you for saying this, because it happens.
I am glad you are aware.

[Nat]

I'm thinking about this protective thing. My intent is not to remove agency from grown-ass adults, but to add to their already existing agency. To double the power.

That has been my intention when I do this as well but I have found this is sometimes seen as ganging up. I think it's a great ally tactic when directed outside the community at/toward the powers that be but it can possibly lead to a greater us against them type divide when femme allyship voiced in the direction of one group ends up dominating those conversations. I haven't seen you do this but I know I have done it. I think it also may just polarize conversations when the femme gaze of sexual and emotional approval hovers within those conversations.

Maybe others discussing gender stuff are impervious to the pressure of those of the desired gender, but part of my own gender struggles has been the scary question of "can I be entirely authentic and still be desirable and loved?" because that was my own experience, I often wonder if the femme voice in threads regarding pronouns, inter-butch, butch-trans communications ends up raising the stakes and further polarizing those conversations.

[SuperFemme]

I'd like to add that as a partner to an FTM that I often find myself performing the role of "social lubricant" (thank you to the person who reminded me of that) to his sober self.

I really find that different than speaking for him or being his supporting actress. I would like to call that being his wife.

[Sam]

We ain't tight....

I don't like undertones, I don't like how someone uses my kid to make convo with me, I don't like manipulation, Sam and I aren't friendly like that.



I did not use your kid, all i said in a (different)thread that wow he was turning 10 already.

That was NOT to get on your last nerve, since i seem to do that so well.

I never said we were tight, always the opposite.

I dont mean any disrespect and i did not say you were stereotyping ME, it was just in your example.

You can now leave me out of this conversation.

[Nat]

I'd like to add that as a partner to an FTM that I often find myself performing the role of "social lubricant" (thank you to the person who reminded me of that) to his sober self.

I really find that different than speaking for him or being his supporting actress. I would like to call that being his wife.


I feel like I have often acted as lubricant too, but I don't think I have ever once been with somebody who acted as my lubricant.

[SuperFemme]

That has been my intention when I do this as well but I have found this is sometimes seen as ganging up. I think it's a great ally tactic when directed outside the community at/toward the powers that be but it can possibly lead to a greater us against them type divide when femme allyship voiced in the direction of one group ends up dominating those conversations. I haven't seen you do this but I know I have done it. I think it also may just polarize conversations when the femme gaze of sexual and emotional approval hovers within those conversations.

Maybe others discussing gender stuff are impervious to the pressure of those of the desired gender, but part of my own gender struggles has been the scary question of "can I be entirely authentic and still be desirable and loved?" because that was my own experience, I often wonder if the femme voice in threads regarding pronouns, inter-butch, butch-trans communications ends up raising the stakes and further polarizing those conversations.

Do you think the protecter thing in us is unbalanced because when we are out and about in real time we do have to be hyper aware and protective? Like the other day we were in the drug store picking up something and a cowboy spotted Cal and started posturing. Cal didn't notice but I did and I felt danger. So I put my arm around Cal and gently escorted us out of the store.

Stuff like that happens so much it is second nature. Because he hasn't yet had surgery I silently pray that he will be "Sir'd" at the same time he get's made so that we can get out of a situation safely.

[Arwen]

I don't think Femme's have diverse pronoun usage to worry about. Or even so much diverse gender presentation. So we get a little taken for granted IMO. To me that translates into us doing a lot of work around making sure that the butches and trans folk around us are comfy. Over the last 5-7 years it has become kind of auto-pilot. That is where we get into trouble with laziness of language choices ya think?

I HAVE seen our counterparts care when it comes to things like oh say...Stone Femme. Even then the shit hits the fan and a consensus cannot be reached on a definition. My question to everyone is this: Do we need healing within the Femme community to the same degree or are we intertwined with the butch and trans communities?


I think Femmes have diverse (and possibly divisive) labels such as Stone Femme, Queer Femme, Lesbian Femme, High Femme, Tomboy Femme, etc.

I don't think the other side of this coin really gets those labels and sometimes I see those labels used to mock femmes (or femmes that make up the "ex" on their personal life's map.)

So I do think that we as a community of self-identified Femmes can demonstrate by doing over talking. :)


Also, if you bind yourself with somebody in order to prove a connection with them you need therapy, not the label of an ally.

With that being said, I also think that it's a fine line between ally and appropriation.

I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?



Yes. Fences are so hard to climb, and the electric ones frizz your hair. Bridges on the other hand let you cross over and visit for a while. It's a tricky thing not to build fences when you think you are building bridges. One gives you a clear view of the other side and one blocks your view.

Let's say that Cal starts testosterone and I run around making rhoid rage jokes in all the threads. I am erecting fences, am I not? If instead I thoughtfully answer any questions that people might ask me? I am building bridges, right?

Or if Cal goes into a thread and speaks about his experience and T and then somebody disputes it? If I wait for Cal to come back in and answer I am building bridges. If I go in and say this is what Cal meant, and you all don't understand Cal blahblahblah.....I am erecting fences.

I think that, for me, building a fence is when I tell a butch who id's one way how "all" other butches of another id think/feel/act.

It is honestly something I have to watch myself on because I'm really good at telling other people what other people think.

OMG. I think I just realized something. I've set myself up as a thought translator.

Well that's not good.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I find myself wanting to speak for my homies or my boy and Grant, I don't. OH I want to I really do but truth be told, I am coming from and emotional state and not a logical one. I feel when I come in sword charging it dimisses them and their words and value, so as hard as it is I have to sit back and watch and give only my experience in their lives.

Make sense?

[The_Lady_Snow]

This thread bugs me. The title bugs me, and the premise bugs me.

Why do I, as a Femme have to be responsible for how anyone gets along? Why isn't it the responsibility of the individual people to make it work? No one coddles my ability to interact with or be friendly with anyone. No one has to hold my fucking hand and lead me to common ground with anyone.

And, I don't damage the relationship between Butches and Transmen. And I'm not sure what that would look like. I saw the example given of "So and so wants me to go down on him, and he's not a real man" (total paraphrase) but that is not Femme, that is bullshit human behavior setting up an invisible hierarchy and it's also, probably at its core, based on Desire. If you don't want to go down on anyone, regardless of how they ID, then don't. Don't be in a relationship with them, but for fucks sake, don't judge them for their desire just because it's different from yours.

Why do we have to be responsible for everything? Isn't it enough we're ornamental? :byebye:


It was an example, the thread was meant to let AtLastHome's thread stay on course.

I should of listened to my inner voice said fuck it and not started it. I thought it would do good.

My apologies.

I knew better.

[Arwen]

Why do we have to be responsible for everything? Isn't it enough we're ornamental? :byebye:

Okay. I get what you are saying about some of this being based on desires not accepted or rejected.

Your last line...I'm going to ask. Are you going for humor?

Because I think you've hit something kind of important.

Those of us who are conditioned to be female may, in fact, have a nurtured (not nature or is it) need to be responsible for those we care for. We are often in the role of mothering (even those of us who don't have children in one way or another), I think. That can be caring for animals, even. (No peanut gallery, I don't want to hear about how your children ARE animals. smile)

Does this discussion boil down to a hunter/gatherer mentality or is there more here?

For me, I think there is more here to chew on. I think given my own initial "that's BS" reaction to the thread and original question, that I need to explore it more carefully.

[SuperFemme]

Aren't responsibility and influence light years apart?

[Martina]

I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?


i have seen this in the past -- and in real time. Wives/girlfriends who know more about transitioning than the person who is doing it, who become activists, who pretty much talk to the doctor while their husband/boyfriend sits there. None of these activities in and of itself is appropriation. But i have definitely seen people who have taken it to that level. Not recently and not on here.
-----------
"Why am I, as a Femme responsible for the relationships the more masculine folks in this community have?"



i personally think the thread is a good idea. i think it is possible that femmes have helped build fences. i think i may have put in brick or two myself. And not out of "bullshit human behavior" or intent. So i am interested in this thread.

It's not about taking responsibility for others' relationships. It's about taking responsibility for myself and the effect i have on others.

[Arwen]

Yes, The Arwen -- I was being funny about the Ornamental part of it. But not as much about the responsible for things because I see this all the time.

And yes, I think it is about the expressing Desire and rejecting or being disrespectful of the desires of others.

For instance, I know, because you have said over and over again on these boards, that you are not interested in certain things. That's cool, that's your personal set of Desires, but it is not everyones personal set of Desires. Your Desires are not better than mine, they are just different. And where it gets real sticky for me is where we start assigning rank to people on a scale that looks like this:

Feminine (bad) <1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10> Masculine (good)

Or even:

Masculine (bad) <1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10> Feminine (good)

So, for me, and I am going to stick to this as a personal observation of the behavior of myself and others, we all share the responsibility of doing it to each other. It's not a Femme thing, it's a human thing. If you put a brick in that wall/fence, then take it the fuck out by reviewing and changing the behaviors and thought processes.


Kinda weirded out here, June. Not sure how my sexual preferences got wound up in this. I have never once said (although it's been extrapolated all over the place by those that never had the fucking respect to just ask me) that my non-preference to go down on a female lover made me better.

In fact, I can probably find where I've said that it made me worse or broken.

Now, I'm gonna tell you that this has really irked me because you got personal here. I'm going to take a breath and assume that you did so for a reason. However, my own personal hurt is really getting in the way of me seeing what that reason is.

I have never and will never say that someone who likes cunninglingus (receiving or giving) is worse or better than me. Simply different.

Now. If you want to make this about why I don't call myself a lesbian, let's go there. Because I have every right in the world to say that, don't I?

How on earth does my saying I don't like coconut diminish or lessen those who do? HOW?

I realize that you did not state what my preferences were, but I did because I don't much care for the hidden.

[Nat]

Do you think the protecter thing in us is unbalanced because when we are out and about in real time we do have to be hyper aware and protective? Like the other day we were in the drug store picking up something and a cowboy spotted Cal and started posturing. Cal didn't notice but I did and I felt danger. So I put my arm around Cal and gently escorted us out of the store.

Stuff like that happens so much it is second nature. Because he hasn't yet had surgery I silently pray that he will be "Sir'd" at the same time he get's made so that we can get out of a situation safely.

You have really got me thinking on this one, Superfemme. I think these types of situations in the context of the outside world may end up carrying over. When I look at my own experiences, I have definitely felt the need, the onus to be protective of the people I have been with when there is somebody scarily homophobic or transphobic bristling in the foreground. I think that may be part of my own hypervigilence and protectiveness. I need to think about this more, but my initial thought is that picking sides and/or championing a side within a butch/transguy context is an act which can polarize our community, whereas acting in a protective way within the heteronormative cis-centric outer world would actually be the right thing to do, especially if doing so may minimize very real risks like violence.

I recently watched a bunch of youtubes of abc's what would you do? series (thank you Lady Snow for posting those links), and I was really horrified to know exactly how many people will not bother to help somebody who is in need of serious help - including homophobic and racist verbal or even physical attack. I think I also read in another thread that you have yourself been in situations where an effective ally would have been handy.

What I got from watching those and reading your posts is that it must be somewhat ingrained in human nature not to help others when they need it and so I think part of being a good and effective ally is to be willing to stand up, support and defend others when they are attacked or in need.

[Arwen]

Arwen -- I did not speak specifically about what your preferences were, or mine, I was using "you" and "me" as an example, because we were interacting with each other. I was not inferring that you use that scale, or think your desires are better than mine or vice versa. And for the record, since we're oversharing here, I am not a huge fan of giving or receiving in that way, there's other things I like a lot more/better.

I'm really sorry you took that to be any kind of attack or negativity towards you personally, because that was not my intent at all. I was having a dialogue with you and using your questions as a jumping off point, not any kind of blame center. I think now, looking at my post, I needed to make a paragraph break before I laid out my little graph thingy, because it is not clear where I switched to talking about different desires and went into the graph that I was kind of done relating with you and moving on to another topic.

Gimme a hug.

Thank you, June.

This is obviously one of those triggers that I wasn't aware of or thought I'd addressed. I haven't apparently because that hurt bad enough to make me curse. :|

I appreciate your clarification a lot. And I will always give you hugs because I happen to like you a lot.

Now I get to go to work. Do you think I should tell them I haven't had cafFIEND since yesterday morning?

Nah. They'll be okay.

[SuperFemme]

I feel like I have often acted as lubricant too, but I don't think I have ever once been with somebody who acted as my lubricant.

Me too, except for the fact that my Femme friends have often acted as my social lubricant. heh.


I think Femmes have diverse (and possibly divisive) labels such as Stone Femme, Queer Femme, Lesbian Femme, High Femme, Tomboy Femme, etc.

Yes, but I don't think they carry the same *gender* connotations for us that they do for our butch/trans counterparts.

I don't think the other side of this coin really gets those labels and sometimes I see those labels used to mock femmes (or femmes that make up the "ex" on their personal life's map.)

So I do think that we as a community of self-identified Femmes can demonstrate by doing over talking. :)

Now why is it that the other side doesn't get those labels? Or that the labels are mocked? Are we really going to sell our selves so short to say that when we discuss ourselves we are "over talking"? When there are pages and pages of threads about butch and trans identities and that is ok? That is something we need to examine I think.


I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?

I think we appropriate these labels by losing ourselves to some extent. I have never EVER seen a trans guy question themselves and their identities once they started dating a Femme. Have you? I'd fall over if Cal woke up tomorrow and said to me...."Am I a Femme now"? Ha! No. What happens is Femmes struggle with "Am I straight now"?. Femmes also seem to go through the transition process with their beloved. Am I even remotely making sense?


I think that, for me, building a fence is when I tell a butch who id's one way how "all" other butches of another id think/feel/act.

It is honestly something I have to watch myself on because I'm really good at telling other people what other people think.

OMG. I think I just realized something. I've set myself up as a thought translator.

Well that's not good.


Thought translation and Tarot Reading can't be that far off can they?

I find myself wanting to speak for my homies or my boy and Grant, I don't. OH I want to I really do but truth be told, I am coming from and emotional state and not a logical one. I feel when I come in sword charging it dimisses them and their words and value, so as hard as it is I have to sit back and watch and give only my experience in their lives.

Make sense?

I think it makes sense. I think what you are saying is that you speak to them from your *me* place and don't try to super-impose your thoughts onto them as their own? I know this only because you've done it with me in real time.

This thread bugs me. The title bugs me, and the premise bugs me.

Why do I, as a Femme have to be responsible for how anyone gets along? Why isn't it the responsibility of the individual people to make it work? No one coddles my ability to interact with or be friendly with anyone. No one has to hold my fucking hand and lead me to common ground with anyone.

And, I don't damage the relationship between Butches and Transmen. And I'm not sure what that would look like. I saw the example given of "So and so wants me to go down on him, and he's not a real man" (total paraphrase) but that is not Femme, that is bullshit human behavior setting up an invisible hierarchy and it's also, probably at its core, based on Desire. If you don't want to go down on anyone, regardless of how they ID, then don't. Don't be in a relationship with them, but for fucks sake, don't judge them for their desire just because it's different from yours.

Why do we have to be responsible for everything? Isn't it enough we're ornamental? :byebye:

I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

Which in the long run doesn't really build a bridge. Or does it? What do you think?

It was an example, the thread was meant to let AtLastHome's thread stay on course.

I should of listened to my inner voice said fuck it and not started it. I thought it would do good.

My apologies.

I knew better.

I for one a uber grateful you started this thread. Please don't second guess.

Okay. I get what you are saying about some of this being based on desires not accepted or rejected.

Your last line...I'm going to ask. Are you going for humor?

Because I think you've hit something kind of important.

Those of us who are conditioned to be female may, in fact, have a nurtured (not nature or is it) need to be responsible for those we care for. We are often in the role of mothering (even those of us who don't have children in one way or another), I think. That can be caring for animals, even. (No peanut gallery, I don't want to hear about how your children ARE animals. smile)

Does this discussion boil down to a hunter/gatherer mentality or is there more here?

For me, I think there is more here to chew on. I think given my own initial "that's BS" reaction to the thread and original question, that I need to explore it more carefully.


What if we have a Femme in Shining Armor complex and want to ride in on our noble steed and save the day kind of thing going one?

i have seen this in the past -- and in real time. Wives/girlfriends who know more about transitioning than the person who is doing it, who become activists, who pretty much talk to the doctor while their husband/boyfriend sits there. None of these activities in and of itself is appropriation. But i have definitely seen people who have taken it to that level. Not recently and not on here.
-----------

OMG. I've seen it too. I may have even done it to some degree. Because we get in there and he just freezes up. Not because I want to appropriate....

i personally think the thread is a good idea. i think it is possible that femmes have helped build fences. i think i may have put in brick or two myself. And not out of "bullshit human behavior" or intent. So i am interested in this thread.

It's not about taking responsibility for others' relationships. It's about taking responsibility for myself and the effect i have on others.

I love your honesty.

[amiyesiam]

[QUOTE=June;130231]Well. We can start threads about anything, which I love. I read your OP yesterday, and then today, and I looked at the other posts, and *I* kept coming back to the same place. "Why am I, as a Femme responsible for the relationships the more masculine folks in this community have?"


I don't think it is a femme thing, I think it is a human thing. there is a kind of paradox that exists with the responsible thing: we are told we don't infulence others, everyone is responisble for themselves. If you let negative stuff bother you it is your problem. But, when we are nice, kind, gentle, accepting, that impacts those around us. everything runs good when people are good. So why, when people are mean do we want to say that should not impact others.
No matter how it should be in a perfect world, we don't live there. Our words and actions influence others. And yet in the end we are each responsible for our own selves. It is not simple or easy, it is complex and deep and full of complexities.

Common sense says that butches/trans impact femmes also, in both good and bad ways. So perhaps thinking about it in terms of humans and how we impact each other takes the "perceived femme responsiblity" out of it.

And really, I would say the same thing to everyone: Be who you are. There are always going to be people who don't like/accept you. You can not please everyone. So look for people who are accepting and kind. They can have any id, cause one's id is not what makes one a mean human. Mean humans are still mean when you strip everything else away.


I didn't come in here to waggle my finger at you, I came in to express an opinion. Besides, I know if I get that finger too close to your evil little mouth, you're gonna bite it off. <3

[SuperFemme]

Arwen -- I did not speak specifically about what your preferences were, or mine, I was using "you" and "me" as an example, because we were interacting with each other. I was not inferring that you use that scale, or think your desires are better than mine or vice versa. And for the record, since we're oversharing here, I am not a huge fan of giving or receiving in that way, there's other things I like a lot more/better.

I'm really sorry you took that to be any kind of attack or negativity towards you personally, because that was not my intent at all. I was having a dialogue with you and using your questions as a jumping off point, not any kind of blame center. I think now, looking at my post, I needed to make a paragraph break before I laid out my little graph thingy, because it is not clear where I switched to talking about different desires and went into the graph that I was kind of done relating with you and moving on to another topic.

Gimme a hug.

Not to derail but I'd just like to say that I really appreciate this post June.

So often in an online setting we've been forced to settle for an atmosphere of do as I say, not as I do hypocrisy, and it is refreshing to see you say what you mean and mean what you say.

When the leadership here is willing to practice what they preach it makes us all willing to tow the line and sit up straight.

Kudos.

[Dylan]

Do you think the protecter thing in us is unbalanced because when we are out and about in real time we do have to be hyper aware and protective? Like the other day we were in the drug store picking up something and a cowboy spotted Cal and started posturing. Cal didn't notice but I did and I felt danger. So I put my arm around Cal and gently escorted us out of the store.

Stuff like that happens so much it is second nature. Because he hasn't yet had surgery I silently pray that he will be "Sir'd" at the same time he get's made so that we can get out of a situation safely.

I still don't know if this thread is for femmes only, so pardon me if I am out of line

I just find this interesting. Are you saying butches or men are NOT as hypervigilant and protective? I may have missed something, and I totally own that...I'm out of town and reading on my phone.

Here's why I ask...btw, I'm not calling you out...I'm asking seriously...so, here's why I ask.

Mahhh Woman notices looks/stares/whatnot from people that I never even see. She overhears comments and all sorts of shit I have become completely oblivious to over the years. I've heard other butches say the same thing about their partners. I *think* that because I have lived with the stares/comments for so long (as opposed to Mahhh Woman) I just don't notice them anymore (usually).

But one place I *have* noticed a difference between ALL of the femmes/women I've dated (when it comes to hypervigilance/protectionism) is I am very aware of my and Mahhh Woman's (what I call) 'bubble'. I may not notice a stare from 'over there', but you can bet, I know when someone gets in my/our/her bubble, and there will be some sort of measure taken to resolve the situation. Like even if I'm across a room or something, I wkill *know* if someone's in Mahhh Woman's bubble and such. I'm really not explaining this well, but...I have talked to other butches about this, and they *know* what I'm talking about...but when I've talked to femmes about it, they have no clue.

So, I'm truly curious...again not 'calling you out' or anything like that


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

I still don't know if this thread is for femmes only, so pardon me if I am out of line

I just find this interesting. Are you saying butches or men are NOT as hypervigilant and protective? I may have missed something, and I totally own that...I'm out of town and reading on my phone.

Here's why I ask...btw, I'm not calling you out...I'm asking seriously...so, here's why I ask.

I am NOT saying that butches and/or men are not as hypervigilante and protective. At all. I might venture to say that you all are a tad bit desensitized after years of being hypersensitized though.

Mahhh Woman notices looks/stares/whatnot from people that I never even see. She overhears comments and all sorts of shit I have become completely oblivious to over the years. I've heard other butches say the same thing about their partners. I *think* that because I have lived with the stares/comments for so long (as opposed to Mahhh Woman) I just don't notice them anymore (usually).

Hah. See above.

But one place I *have* noticed a difference between ALL of the femmes/women I've dated (when it comes to hypervigilance/protectionism) is I am very aware of my and Mahhh Woman's (what I call) 'bubble'. I may not notice a stare from 'over there', but you can bet, I know when someone gets in my/our/her bubble, and there will be some sort of measure taken to resolve the situation. Like even if I'm across a room or something, I wkill *know* if someone's in Mahhh Woman's bubble and such. I'm really not explaining this well, but...I have talked to other butches about this, and they *know* what I'm talking about...but when I've talked to femmes about it, they have no clue.

So, I'm truly curious...again not 'calling you out' or anything like that


Dylan

No I *think* I get what you are saying Dylan and don't think you are calling me out. Let me see if I am reading you right.

You are going to get protective and resolve the situation if you sense danger in you and your womans *bubble* (or personal space so to speak). You are not oblivious to perceived or real threats at all.

Your woman on the other hand might have a larger bubble? Meaning that a look from that cowboy way way over there is going to trigger her spidey senses and her fight or flight mechanisms whereas it's become so second nature to you that it probably doesn't even register until the offender gets within a certain radius?

[Pretty Woman]

SuperFemme said: I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

And I agree! This is what comes to mind when I read through the posts to this thread thus far. And honestly, right this minute it's more interesting to me to hear from other femmes here how we alienate each other (other femmes) when one femme puts down the protector sword while another picks it up and actually uses it to poke the other femme in the proverbial eye!

On the other site, a femme started a thread asking for tips and help to prepare for her first dildo experience with a butch. We were happily chatting along when a butch appeared and started making little jokes and sexual innuendo. And I called hym out on it and asked that hy respect the thread, read if hy must, but not post.

Immediately, two other femmes began to describe how the butch that had posted was one of the nicest people on the thread and blah, blah. Avenge the feelings of the butch! Honestly, I was floored that femmes would be willing to sacrifice their sisters to protect a butch's feelings in that type of circumstance.

Interested in others thoughts on that.

[SuperFemme]

SuperFemme said: I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

And I agree! This is what comes to mind when I read through the posts to this thread thus far. And honestly, right this minute it's more interesting to me to hear from other femmes here how we alienate each other (other femmes) when one femme puts down the protector sword while another picks it up and actually uses it to poke the other femme in the proverbial eye!

On the other site, a femme started a thread asking for tips and help to prepare for her first dildo experience with a butch. We were happily chatting along when a butch appeared and started making little jokes and sexual innuendo. And I called hym out on it and asked that hy respect the thread, read if hy must, but not post.

Immediately, two other femmes began to describe how the butch that had posted was one of the nicest people on the thread and blah, blah. Avenge the feelings of the butch! Honestly, I was floored that femmes would be willing to sacrifice their sisters to protect a butch's feelings in that type of circumstance.

Interested in others thoughts on that.

I am glad I was not there to witness (read: get banned) this.

It is a shame that everyone is reduced to sex acts while waiting for a butch or trans guy to show up isn't it?

Conversely, I understand that somebody thought that they were joining in on the spirit of the thread, but it IS disheartening.

[Pretty Woman]

Thanks and for your note. It would have been fantastic to have the support (not a one of the folks stood up to it with the exception of me...known to push back here for sure).
The title of the thread was directed to Femmes only to assist on the subject, but yes it seems that we femmes most often want to discuss sex acts amongst ourselves and then become quite chatty on a variety of topics once the butches and trans men show up.
Just to say a little more about my experience there (can you tell that it still pisses me off?)
It would have been totally cool with me if the femmes that jumped down my throat would have instead asked the OP if she thought it was ok for butches to join in the discussion, but instead they chose to attack me for questioning the appearance of a butch in a thread that was directed toward femmes.
I went back to the thread just to see how it was going a few days later (read but not post) and all sorts of butches had joined into the fun...mostly describing what femmes should do to make ourselves more comfortable with an early dildo experience.
Honestly, the whole thing was disgusting.

I am glad I was not there to witness (read: get banned) this.

It is a shame that everyone is reduced to sex acts while waiting for a butch or trans guy to show up isn't it?

Conversely, I understand that somebody thought that they were joining in on the spirit of the thread, but it IS disheartening.

[evolveme]

I can’t say that I’ve ever personally witnessed a global (for lack of a better word) insertion of deliberate discord among butches/transguys by femmes or feminine women. What I have witnessed is a kind of dissension taking place amongst butches and transguys surrounding the circumstance at the center of which was a femme. I do not believe the femme was the problem so much as the underlying competition. And I think that competition, being what it is, is a natural impulse centered in our evolutionary instincts. Certainly the conditions of patriarchy make our competitive behaviors quite vicious and self-defeating at times, but as I’ve argued before (to crickets, but wth) patriarchy may well be a condition of the evolutionary impulse.

I’ll provide an example: For me, to use the wrong gender reference for someone is an act of aggression and I will not do it, regardless of my personal feelings about the individual in question. I’m not saying I’ve never done it, but in the years since I started dumping out the knapsack and looking the contents over, I simply refrain. Still, and in spite of the ardent activists I’ve known, I have repeatedly witnessed certain butches/transguys utilize incorrect gender references out of cruelty and in times of frustration.

Back to competition: in spite of the fact that we’re predominantly queer and our partnerings are unlikely to affect population rates toward the surplus, our survival instinct compels us to seek a mate. In every species, this process is the underlying play of its adult groups. And through this process, competition is born. In fact, it’s necessary. We might have the iPhone 4.0 and quantum computing and Bill Maher and personal politics and Julie Marie Wade but we are stupid to think that 2.5 million years of evolution* doesn’t daily inform our interactions with one another (even when we think we’re being smooth). Now I think that for the most part, our evolution has moved away from the domain of the body and into the domain of the brain (at least I’m hopeful), and so maybe it’s true that our choices affect our future. Like, if you refuse to participate in the personal shit storm, you’re doing your own small part to evolve the race.

*just since Homo

[SuperFemme]

Thanks and for your note. It would have been fantastic to have the support (not a one of the folks stood up to it with the exception of me...known to push back here for sure).
The title of the thread was directed to Femmes only to assist on the subject, but yes it seems that we femmes most often want to discuss sex acts amongst ourselves and then become quite chatty on a variety of topics once the butches and trans men show up.
Just to say a little more about my experience there (can you tell that it still pisses me off?)
It would have been totally cool with me if the femmes that jumped down my throat would have instead asked the OP if she thought it was ok for butches to join in the discussion, but instead they chose to attack me for questioning the appearance of a butch in a thread that was directed toward femmes.
I went back to the thread just to see how it was going a few days later (read but not post) and all sorts of butches had joined into the fun...mostly describing what femmes should do to make ourselves more comfortable with an early dildo experience.
Honestly, the whole thing was disgusting.


PrettyWoman? I am sorry that you had that experience. I have no idea how a butch and speak to a Femme strapping for the first time. Rather, I have no idea how ANYONE can speak to it. It is such a vastly personal experience.

Maybe we should start a thread here in the Femme Zone about it and see what happens? I would hope it could be a different experience?

[The_Lady_Snow]

e are you saying butches and transguys are the ones perpetuating this issue?

I am getting caught up with the word competition...

<scratching head like a monkey>

I am a lil confused

[evolveme]

e are you saying butches and transguys are the ones perpetuating this issue?

I am getting caught up with the word competition...

<scratching head like a monkey>

I am a lil confused

Actually, yes. Except not consciously, which is important to remember. It occurs in the same way that a good deal of the tension among feminine women (like-among-like) is about underlying competition. It's a theory of evolution, anyway.

And again, it's exacerbated by the conditions of patriarchy, which are quite negative (obviously) and not conducive to the more positive features of informal in-group dynamics (team building, support systems, community-building, etc.).

ETA: Obviously, the same tensions occur among populations of queers for which gender variations/presentations are not so obvious, e.g. gay men and uniformly lesbian women. Competition among and within a group for which attraction and mating is also widely characterized is not as easily parsed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Actually, yes. Except not consciously, which is important to remember. It occurs in the same way that a good deal of the tension among feminine women (like-among-like) is about underlying competition. It's a theory of evolution, anyway.

And again, it's exacerbated by the conditions of patriarchy, which are quite negative (obviously) and not conducive to the more positive features of informal in-group dynamics (team building, support systems, community-building, etc.).


I get it and I don't. Here is why.

I am not competitive when it comes to partnering up. I am good on my own, I don't have issues getting some or dating. So for *me* that head space does not exist.

I can see how it can play in to all this.

I also have to disagree that it is a butch transguy issue, and this is just my opinion.

We have the power to stop it if we want, or to watch the chest bumping when it comes down to us as future *mates*

So yeah I don't get it and I do cause I don't roll that way.

[Martina]

i think the fact that people hook up out of a community adds dynamics to it that can lead to drama, but that is not necessarily because of competition for resources. It's the added energy. Even the sweet and healthy posturing for attention can get to me at times, but that's my problem. This is a place where people hunt. i don't hunt here, or i haven't. But friends of mine do. And i think that's great. But, yes, it does change the nature of the exchanges.

In r/t butch-femme and (for me) lesbian communities, i see some of that. i have walked up to talk to a butch and seen the femme clutch her partner's arm. But that's not something that i think colors the entire community.

Is the sexual energy strong in our community? Yes. That's one thing i like about it. Does competition for mates cause a lot of the drama? i don't think so.

I am not sure what creates so much drama. Some of it here, i believe, is the medium -- the internet. Also we are a diverse group, and a few people want to feel more "at home" here or in r/t butch-femme than it turns out is always possible. i think that leads to frustrations and disappointments. And there is the normal drama of break-ups, etc.

Because i do not hunt here or even in r/t butch-femme (i hunt in the leather community), i do not encounter much femme jealousy. Some. It always shocks me, and there seems to be no way to defend yourself against it. But those folks are sad. They can't be having the best time. And most of the b-f community members i meet in the world are having a really good time. That's another thing i like about us.

Now I think that for the most part, our evolution has moved away from the domain of the body and into the domain of the brain (at least I’m hopeful), and so maybe it’s true that our choices affect our future. Like, if you refuse to participate in the personal shit storm, you’re doing your own small part to evolve the race.

Also, whatever behaviors people exhibit, unless they lead to greater reproductive success, they are not affecting evolution. It might affect how we all live our lives and what we teach our children -- our culture(s) -- but they are not affecting biological evolution.

[evolveme]

I don't know, Snowy. I kind of get it and have seen it. The whomevers out there that are always looking for "The Next Best Thing" who will make every attempt to discredit their Ex or assign blame without taking responsibility for any of their own actions in the relationships. Some of them will even project their own behavior onto others and infer or assign a deeper relationship or even an inappropriate one onto others. This is not Femme/Trans/Butch, masculine or feminine, this is, as has been noted, human behavior.

I've had it happen to me. Once I was telling someone how nice I thought their partner was for being so thoughtful towards me and I watched her face turn stone cold with anger over it, as though I was trying to make her jealous or steal her partner, instead of what was actually happening, which was that I was saying "Hey, you picked a good one there!". It was both sad and telling about the level of insecurity she had. Sidenote: I was also partnerned when it happened, so I wasn't even "Suspect by being single".

It's interesting to correlate this back to evolution and competition for food/mates/shelter and how that may affect our little microcosm, even though the majority of us are unable to create progeny together in the "usual" way.

Actually, it was your post, June, about not feeling responsible for the tensions among butches and transmen that inspired my thoughts. I don't feel responsible for those tensions either, and I don't think that any femme should, except when she has deliberately participated in a kind of negative in-group behavior that spurs intolerance and dissension. Perhaps we've all been party to this kind of thing at one time or another. Still, I think the basis - the foundational cause - for most intergroup tensions is competition and that it does have an evolutionary source. Like I mentioned, even though we are unlikely to add to the surplus in population, it is a benefit to our survival to mate, and ironically, to find and build community.

Snow, even while some of us overcome our more basic (and base) instincts (and I hear what you're saying definitely) some of the time, others have to consciously work to continue to do so (provided they ever select to do so). Not everyone has a competitive nature, sure, and not all people are given to behaving in ways that are derisive, but most people enact these behaviors at some point, and the larger question becomes not just one of the personality clash, or an inability to sort differences, but whether there is a deeper motivation for this need for establishing groups and even hierarchies.

I just happen to think there is.

[evolveme]

Also, whatever behaviors people exhibit, unless they lead to greater reproductive success, they are not affecting evolution. It might affect how we all live our lives and what we teach our children -- our culture(s) -- but they are not affecting biological evolution.

It seems (and I could be misreading you) that your definition for evolution is that unless we are reproducing well (i.e., continuously and more?), we are not achieving the basis for a standard of evolution. My working definition is a framework that is larger than merely the propagation of the species -which I read only to be a continuation of the race - but an increase in the capacity of the human to function and to prosper, even if at reduced numbers. I'm unconcerned at this stage with biological evolution (although I think it would benefit the race to be done with wisdom teeth altogether). I agree that how we live our lives, what we teach our children, and questions of culture, are quite important to evolution.

Still, most of us scream and leap into a chair at the sight of a spider, and hardly ever at the sight of a moving automobile, which is much, much more likely to kill us. I hardly think we can intellectually do away with the evolutionary drives (like the competition for a mate) just because we find them unpalatable, or simply exhausting to think about.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank you June for going into more detail!!!

ms e I still do not agree and I am ok with it as I am sure you are. that for you it is not a femme influence that adds tar to the mixture. We can be catty, divisive, mean and dismissive towards each other especially when hurt or rejected. I know this is not exclusive to just femme, *I* chose to open it up for us femme's to talk about so that Atllasthome's thread could continue in friendship building.

Let's be honest, we have a tendency to disrupt threads with the whole in that sweet magnolia voice saying

"I love you guys and I think you are all great"

giggle wink wink tee hee

and yes I also know that butches do it to femme's but my intent was for us (femmes) to be transparent and open about our shit.

I thought the convo could be had maybe it can maybe we can't.

I hope I am making sense. I am not as evolved in language like most of you are and I thank you for your patience.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Okay. Snowy, yes there is weird "Cheerleading" that goes on and also, people going in and trying to spin stuff on behalf of others. But I don't see it as a Femme Thing. Even if I just look inside this community, I see it as a behavioral issue that crosses gender lines.

That is why, I still say that for me, it is not my responsibility to pave a special road between Transmen and Butches. If they can't get their own social skills together, how am I going to make that any better.

If I could force people to be friends, now that would be an exceptional Super Power, and I would abuse it mightily.

PS - Your communication skills are fine, we're just seeing things differently, and that's okay.


Gotcha!

So therefore what I have learned is this.

I should of worded it like Metropolis did...

Being a "Community" Ally

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1599

[Nat]

I don't think it's all competition. I think sometimes its empathy. And then there are a lot of people who want to side with the "winning team" and those who will always side with the "underdog" on an issue. And then, as stated far earlier, I have put my foot in it most when I'm feeling protective of somebody else because I perceive them as being ganged up on. It's very hard for me not to jump in there and get my hands dirty if I think somebody else is being unnecessarily hurt, but it just backfires, you know?

It's hard for me not to "cheerlead" for the underdog because it's so second-nature to me, but I have to not take sides. Or to take the femme side if I'm gonna take sides.

And from the femme side, I really thought it was great what Pretty Woman said about the stuff femmes perpetuate on other femmes. I especially feel this happens during discussions about butches and/or transguys to the point where the femmes on both sides drown out the actual people a situation is affecting directly. (I am guilty of participating in this)

Sometimes it feels like the pronoun issue (for example) really pits femme against femme because femmes come in to protect whomever from the evils of wrong pronoun choice and it seems like we can't even hear each other about our own varying perspectives as femmes without seeking to attack other femmes that aren't on board with our viewpoints.

[evolveme]

I don't think it's all competition. I think sometimes its empathy. And then there are a lot of people who want to side with the "winning team" and those who will always side with the "underdog" on an issue. And then, as stated far earlier, I have put my foot in it most when I'm feeling protective of somebody else because I perceive them as being ganged up on. It's very hard for me not to jump in there and get my hands dirty if I think somebody else is being unnecessarily hurt, but it just backfires, you know?

It's hard for me not to "cheerlead" for the underdog because it's so second-nature to me, but I have to not take sides. Or to take the femme side if I'm gonna take sides.

And from the femme side, I really thought it was great what Pretty Woman said about the stuff femmes perpetuate on other femmes. I especially feel this happens during discussions about butches and/or transguys to the point where the femmes on both sides drown out the actual people a situation is affecting directly. (I am guilty of participating in this)

Sometimes it feels like the pronoun issue (for example) really pits femme against femme because femmes come in to protect whomever from the evils of wrong pronoun choice and it seems like we can't even hear each other about our own varying perspectives as femmes without seeking to attack other femmes that aren't on board with our viewpoints.

I read what you were saying here and immediately began to look for explanations in terms of the social sciences. Recently, in a tough conversation I was having with my best friend, she told me that I tend too often to intellectualize what isn't and asked me if this isn't a coping mechanism for something. (I've actually been accused of the intellectualizing thing a few times before, so I had to stop and consider her words seriously.) It may be that I'm distancing from emotions, but I know that I just happen to think in this way, so if you'll bear with me (or not):

Anyway, I'm rather a fan of the sciences, and the social sciences especially. I think that even if there is a reason for a behavior on an individual/personal level, there is a fairly large degree of possibility that it is correlating to another level of "cause." In other words, human action can be seen in quadrants of behavior from the independent, intentional level to the behavioral to the cultural and collective, and sometimes an action may unite on all levels, even while the individual conceives of themselves acting out of independent intention.

I guess if we're talking about what behaviors are counter productive, but which we see happening often, it's useful (to my thinking) to consider the root of *all* the reasons.

[JustJo]

This is what comes to mind when I read through the posts to this thread thus far. And honestly, right this minute it's more interesting to me to hear from other femmes here how we alienate each other (other femmes) when one femme puts down the protector sword while another picks it up and actually uses it to poke the other femme in the proverbial eye!

On the other site, a femme started a thread asking for tips and help to prepare for her first dildo experience with a butch. We were happily chatting along when a butch appeared and started making little jokes and sexual innuendo. And I called hym out on it and asked that hy respect the thread, read if hy must, but not post.

Immediately, two other femmes began to describe how the butch that had posted was one of the nicest people on the thread and blah, blah. Avenge the feelings of the butch! Honestly, I was floored that femmes would be willing to sacrifice their sisters to protect a butch's feelings in that type of circumstance.

Interested in others thoughts on that.

Hi Pretty Woman :rrose:

I was actually one of the femmes participating in that thread and remember that exchange well. For me, this is a classic example of how our different viewpoints impact what we read and how we read it.

While the butch's remarks were rather juvenile (and arguably insensitive), I certainly didn't read them as sexual in nature. If I remember it correctly, it was along the lines of "peeking in and just gonna sit quietly over here --->> ".

Your response to him read as incredibly harsh (to me). I remember thinking "oh good grief" when he posted....and "oh holy hell" when you did. To his credit, he immediately apologized. And no, I was not one of the femmes who posted to defend him, because I felt that he was perfectly capable of explaining, apologizing and exiting all on his own. When it all blew up, he apologized several times. To me, he made a mistake and he aplogized for it.

No, I don't think he needed femmes to defend him. But I also think it's possible that the harshness of your correction to him made some of those who care about him upset. He is a genuinely nice and caring person, and I think some of those who know that were offended.

I don't think that was a case of femmes attacking other femmes to defend a butch's feelings. I think that was a case of friends feeling like a friend had been unfairly browbeaten for an innocent mistake.

I agree with you though, that the thread quickly deteriorated after that. It was really a place for femmes to discuss a very sensitive and personal subject, and it turned into a mess.

[Nat]

I read what you were saying here and immediately began to look for explanations in terms of the social sciences. Recently, in a tough conversation I was having with my best friend, she told me that I tend too often to intellectualize what isn't and asked me if this isn't a coping mechanism for something. (I've actually been accused of the intellectualizing thing a few times before, so I had to stop and consider her words seriously.) It may be that I'm distancing from emotions, but I know that I just happen to think in this way, so if you'll bear with me (or not):

Anyway, I'm rather a fan of the sciences, and the social sciences especially. I think that even if there is a reason for a behavior on an individual/personal level, there is a fairly large degree of possibility that it is correlating to another level of "cause." In other words, human action can be seen in quadrants of behavior from the independent, intentional level to the behavioral to the cultural and collective, and sometimes an action may unite on all levels, even while the individual conceives of themselves acting out of independent intention.

I guess if we're talking about what behaviors are counter productive, but which we see happening often, it's useful (to my thinking) to consider the root of *all* the reasons.

I am not at all in disagreement with your looking at these things from this perspective - I actually tend to get really excited when people start talking the way you're talking. I guess I think of human beings as pack animals like other primates. I don't know nearly enough about primate pack behavior, but I do think different people have different roles and functions within the given pack. Though I am not wholly satisfied with the ennagram, it's one of those systems I think about a lot when it comes to how humans relate and why. I do think there are kind of built-in pack behaviors that fall somewhere between "we all act this way for the exact same reason" and "we are all special individualist snowflakes acting for reasons entirely unique to ourselves."

Hmm I think I misread this statement: "it's useful (to my thinking) to consider the root of *all* the reasons"

I read it as looking for the each root for each of the reasons, but now I think you are saying there is one root to all the reasons?

Maybe that root *is* competition - I definitely can't say you're wrong.

Going back to what I was saying about primate pack behavior -

I think pack behavior is a combination of herd behavior and hunting behavior. Herds (and schools of fish even) survive by rejecting the members that are different or hurt and by always trying to stay close to the center so they won't be picked off. (I'm not a scientist here, maybe I'm missing some steps).

Group-hunting requires more different roles within a group. You have to have the caretakers, you have the observant types, the aggressive types, the peacemaking types, the strong group-cohesion types, the industrious, the inventive, the single-minded, the balanced-minded, the perfectionists, and the people to say, "that's not going to work!", etc. Any one of those types can exhibit a behavior and it can be for a reason more specific to their type.

Empathy itself is not something universally experienced (from what I understand) but reactions to feelings of empathy are also various. Some people just want to get away from whatever is causing them to have an uncomfortable feeling, others attack, others seek to comfort, etc.

I don't know if I have a real working theory here, but I agree with you that for the most part we are as humans coded by evolution to create progeny and ensure that progeny's survival, so even though most of us in this community don't create progeny, I definitely think it makes sense that we are encoded as humans.

Where I feel like you and I might differ is what the very rootiest root part is to all those various behaviors. It very well may be competition, but I rub up against the need for group cohesion and the advantage of multiple roles and cooperation very quickly when I try to go down that route. If we were only competitive, wouldn't we have just killed each other off by now? Heh. I guess maybe there's a real competition between Hobbes' "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" idea of every person for theirself (pronoun ugh) and the idea that pack and social cooperation and cohesion are so innate to the species.

Hey - my googlefu tells me Hobbes at least gave 3 reasons for human conflict:

competition, diffidence and glory. The first maketh men invade for gain; the second, for safety; and the third, for reputation.

If I had to choose one of those reasons as the rootiest one, I might go first with safety. But it might competition is nice and would suffice. :)

I don't know if I've said anything at all here that makes sense, but I have this uncontrollable impulse to hit "Submit Reply" and get out of the quicksand I find myself in. ;)

[betenoire]

But one place I *have* noticed a difference between ALL of the femmes/women I've dated (when it comes to hypervigilance/protectionism) is I am very aware of my and Mahhh Woman's (what I call) 'bubble'. I may not notice a stare from 'over there', but you can bet, I know when someone gets in my/our/her bubble, and there will be some sort of measure taken to resolve the situation. Like even if I'm across a room or something, I wkill *know* if someone's in Mahhh Woman's bubble and such. I'm really not explaining this well, but...I have talked to other butches about this, and they *know* what I'm talking about...but when I've talked to femmes about it, they have no clue.

Now, don't think I'm trying to call you out on something because 1 - I like you and 2 - I don't know your specific situation or behaviour.

But I have to wonder at what point what we are calling protectionism crosses over into possessiveness?

I know I've been with plenty-a-people who have been all irate about "that person was too close" "they were behaving inappropriately" "that was disrespectful to you and me and our relationship and your favourite orange cat" about situations that I -really- did not feel was a big deal at all.

It's actually pretty annoying. Especially considering that it's pretty clear that if I felt someone was violating my bubble or being inappropriate I am more than capable (and willing! I would do it with glee!) to take care of that shit on my own.

[Dylan]

Now, don't think I'm trying to call you out on something because 1 - I like you and 2 - I don't know your specific situation or behaviour.

But I have to wonder at what point what we are calling protectionism crosses over into possessiveness?

I know I've been with plenty-a-people who have been all irate about "that person was too close" "they were behaving inappropriately" "that was disrespectful to you and me and our relationship and your favourite orange cat" about situations that I -really- did not feel was a big deal at all.

It's actually pretty annoying. Especially considering that it's pretty clear that if I felt someone was violating my bubble or being inappropriate I am more than capable (and willing! I would do it with glee!) to take care of that shit on my own.

I know what you're saying...and I totally agree with you. That shit drives me batty too.

To be clear, from my ME place...I don't have a problem with my partners talking to, flirting with, hamming it up with, whatevring with anyone else. I don't have a problem with people coming over to talk to my partners. That would be gross.

If my partner is done talking to you...I expect you to go away. If she has to tell you twice, I'm gonna have a problem. You'll get a third strike, and then ima say something.

And what I've noticed...and what drives me crazy is femmes (usually) have to repeat themselves a few times...but I only have to say something once. The first time is (usually) ignored. The second time a femme says something, she's (usually) giggled at or mocked or patted on the head. And yet, I only have to say something once. And this has happened with a number of femmes I've known who have been partners OR just friends. It happens with men and straight (or queer) women also.

I could give some examples if need be, but I'm definitely not talking about being a possessive freak. I'm talking about the way femme's boundaries are often trampled on (even if they're the loudest mouthed, toughest, alpha-y femme in the world...which most of my femme friends/partners tend to be), and they get patted on the head for being 'so cute' when they stick up for themselves.


Hope I'm Somewhat More Clear,
Dylan

[apretty]

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

[The_Lady_Snow]

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.


Well I can tell you, for me, they happen all the time and when I set boundaries some people get pissed off ms pretty..... Though I would like to discuss this, I find it to be more of a topic that should be in one of the femme threads.

[Dylan]

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

Does that mean you're asking for an example?

Would you like online or real time?

It's interesting to me that I would have to give an example (I'm more than willing to...don't get me wrong) as this is the basis of both male and masculine privilege.


Dylan

[Dylan]

Well I can tell you, for me, they happen all the time and when I set boundaries some people get pissed off ms pretty..... Though I would like to discuss this, I find it to be more of a topic that should be in one of the femme threads.

I kind of think it sort of ties into the beginning of this thread cuz I think it affects how conversations go between butches and then men of the site, because it does change dynamics of conversations, and I think it leads to the 'save the femmes' placating that tends to happen in conversations...and then the slew of 'you are all so wonderful' fawning invasions that happen from both femmes and butches

"See this is why I love alllllllllllllll butches, cuz..."

"And that's why we love allllllllllllll femmes...cuz they just get us blah blah gag"



Dylan

[nycfem]

This made me think about how I have had at least one femme friend begin to refer (within the context of ranting about her ex) to that individual by his biological feminine name in discussing him with me, while during the relationship she referred to him by his masculine name of choice. At the time I didn't call her out on it because I gave her the benefit of the doubt, thinking that perhaps she wanted to refer to him with more formality and distance. But now reading this thread and reflecting on some of the issues, it becomes more clear to me that this kind of dissing really is always on some level about disrespecting gender presentation, and I don't want to participate in tolerating it, no matter if a friend is angry and ranting or not. This kind of deep disregard for someone's identity is never okay.


So let's grab this topic by the balls and discuss it.

I have experienced it and seen it the one minute we date a butch then we date a transperson.

We are bitter after the break up and we dog the other gender presentation to make us feel good.

Example:

Mariano was so abusive, he would scream in my ear and I would be terrorized cause you know he is on *whispering* T

or

Kelly was so not butch, she wanted me to go down on her YUCK, not like Marianno who is a real mans man.

(Marianno and Kelly are fictional characters)

[Jet]

well, considering i really don;t have anything in common with anybody, i don't think about building friendships. just speaking for myself.

[Words]

well, considering i really don;t have anything in common with anybody, i don't think about building friendships. just speaking for myself.

Just a thought, but perhaps, if you were to build friendships, you'd come to discover that you have a lot more in common with others than you think you do?

[apretty]

Does that mean you're asking for an example?

Would you like online or real time?

It's interesting to me that I would have to give an example (I'm more than willing to...don't get me wrong) as this is the basis of both male and masculine privilege.


Dylan

don't get ALL

what i meant was, *people* are generally invasive of personal space--unless they're not.

there are those of us that are aware and cautious of invading space and crossing boundaries and there are those of us that are UNaware and think nothing of being called out again and again and again for crossing lines (hey, maybe they even take some sort of pride in how "edgy" or "way cool with everything" they consider themselves). but do you really think it's just butches doing this? do you think you're more aware/protective because you're dating a femme (and notice that butches are in her bubble)?

i think it's not so gender specific--there have been feminine women who've said (and done) some really off-putting things to me, there have been men who i've been absolutely disgusted by (and to be fair, i'm more critical of some men), and yes i've experienced posturing-butch and "drunk-stranger-butch-rubbing-his-cock-on-me" --but he was so sloppy drunk and so pathetic (and GROSS) that i waited until we'd left to tell my then-bf (and moved to where my butt was not in his cock-reach) because i didn't want my then-bf to punch him out/go to jail.

again, i think we're all capable of god-awful inappropriate and stupid behavior, i just don't think this bubble-invading is specific to the masculine. or i need to get out more as i'm unawares ;)

[AtLast]

I guess I kind of assumed that AtLast put her thread in the Relationships, Communities, and Groups forum so that she did not have to choose between the butch or trans zone, since it is for both groups of people.

You assumed correctly. I just didn't want the thread to appear one, or any-sided. Plus, I was trying to get away from gender as the issue because I was trying to get to communication, friendship interaction and the differences between what we might experience online and off. Which, sure appears to be different and both the butches and transguys are doing a great job of showing this.

Whatever gender identification one has is a given in that thread, and not up for translation or discussion. It is who and what the person is, period. Talking about some of the issues as friends or perhaps political commrades is what that thread is really about.

LOL... I honestly wasn't going after much about the influence of femmes on us all, but, in reading this thread, I think it is a good idea. I have had some personal interactions dating in which a couple (meaning just 2) femmes were hell-bent on making the butch they really wanted (to which I said, you really are looking for someone else, and that is OK). But, there is no way I am going to put that in the context of all, or even most femmes. After all, I don't know all femmes. And others that I have dated did not do this at all.

Thanks for the thread, Snow and all. This is important for me as a butch to read.

[Dylan]

don't get ALL

what i meant was, *people* are generally invasive of personal space--unless they're not.

there are those of us that are aware and cautious of invading space and crossing boundaries and there are those of us that are UNaware and think nothing of being called out again and again and again for crossing lines (hey, maybe they even take some sort of pride in how "edgy" or "way cool with everything" they consider themselves). but do you really think it's just butches doing this? do you think you're more aware/protective because you're dating a femme (and notice that butches are in her bubble)?

i think it's not so gender specific--there have been feminine women who've said (and done) some really off-putting things to me, there have been men who i've been absolutely disgusted by (and to be fair, i'm more critical of some men), and yes i've experienced posturing-butch and "drunk-stranger-butch-rubbing-his-cock-on-me" --but he was so sloppy drunk and so pathetic (and GROSS) that i waited until we'd left to tell my then-bf (and moved to where my butt was not in his cock-reach) because i didn't want my then-bf to punch him out/go to jail.

again, i think we're all capable of god-awful inappropriate and stupid behavior, i just don't think this bubble-invading is specific to the masculine. or i need to get out more as i'm unawares ;)

I don't remember saying bubble invaders were any gender.

Also, I'm not just talking about someone 'standing too close to you at the grocery store' which is how I'm interpretting your interpretation of my words.


Dylan

[blush]

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here! :readfineprint:

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

[firie]

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

Were you meaning that the intent of the thread was to talk about how femmes influence the friendships (or lack thereof, perhaps) between "Butches and Transmen?" That femmes, and your caviat later, that anyone "other than butch or transmen" could contemplate how that influence occurs?

I am reading you to mean that you want people who are not "butch or transmen" to recognize how they impact this friendship or perhaps lack thereof?

That you are asking for some owning up to by femmes, primarily, as the title of the thread suggests in how they impact this relationship?

And not to say that "butches or transmen" can't comment on something that very obviously impacts them?

Or am I confused?

That's not really for only femmes to comment on, right?

I mean it would seem privileged of femmes to lock the subject matter out, given that this is something that impacts the subject matter, and particularly in very stressful and tension-filled, and sometimes oppressive ways, it seems. Why wouldn't those folks have a right to comment in response to this experience, especially if privileged assumptions were being made, say as in, "femmes are the most supportive people around when it comes to this relationship! because we love all you guys (nevermind the lazy default there, ya know?).

Isn't that why you specifically kept it out of the femme zone because it is much bigger than just what a femme will confess to another femme in this regard, but instead being accountable for our actions, and thus the residual impact of those actions, say like being lazy with pronouns?

Am I getting you or no?

[Arwen]

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here! :readfineprint:

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

I would like to say that I'm wondering the same thing. Not that I don't appreciate the other side but I really thought this was about femmes discussing this and letting butches have their say in another thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

My apologies for just getting to this my cousin died, my gfather is dying, SF is in the hospital, a kid turned 10, Grant keeps distracting me with unmarked flesh, and our Pride is this weekend...




Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here! :readfineprint:

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

Here was my intent, I thought it was going to be a good idea to have this here, a place where femme's could talk about it.

Here is why:

I love how we communicate.

I love how no matter how hard shit gets in our convos we do it and do it with passion.

I thought after watching a post go up in ALH's thread( having nothing to do with the convo) putting this thread here was a good idea.

I thought when I said we (femme's) could talk about it, it was not going to cast blame on one specific gender, I thought the space would be respected (post #2) obviously proved me wrong.

I thought well I don't care who participates cause by then (after post 2) the space was already different than my very well clear intent.

I thought we could learn from this I feel we have.

Were you meaning that the intent of the thread was to talk about how femmes influence the friendships (or lack thereof, perhaps) between "Butches and Transmen?" That femmes, and your caviat later, that anyone "other than butch or transmen" could contemplate how that influence occurs?

I am reading you to mean that you want people who are not "butch or transmen" to recognize how they impact this friendship or perhaps lack thereof?

That you are asking for some owning up to by femmes, primarily, as the title of the thread suggests in how they impact this relationship?

And not to say that "butches or transmen" can't comment on something that very obviously impacts them?

Or am I confused?

That's not really for only femmes to comment on, right?

I mean it would seem privileged of femmes to lock the subject matter out, given that this is something that impacts the subject matter, and particularly in very stressful and tension-filled, and sometimes oppressive ways, it seems. Why wouldn't those folks have a right to comment in response to this experience, especially if privileged assumptions were being made, say as in, "femmes are the most supportive people around when it comes to this relationship! because we love all you guys (nevermind the lazy default there, ya know?).

Isn't that why you specifically kept it out of the femme zone because it is much bigger than just what a femme will confess to another femme in this regard, but instead being accountable for our actions, and thus the residual impact of those actions, say like being lazy with pronouns?

Am I getting you or no?

At this point Ms firie, this thread can stay full of butches, femme's trans guys, monkeys, snakes, or any other thing that gives valuable in put, or not. I learned something, and well I knew better.

Don't start a thread.

Stick to saving :|

It's just clearly simple, we are grown as folk, respect eachother's identifications, personal space, their boundaries..

This is shit we should of learned back in Kindergarden..

Once again I thought ATH's thread could be left to those particular community member so that some friendships can be built.

Privilege me?

*laughs*

Wanna hang out with me for a week? I am not all that privileged.






I would like to say that I'm wondering the same thing. Not that I don't appreciate the other side but I really thought this was about femmes discussing this and letting butches have their say in another thread.


See above posting to Ms blush Ms ArweN...

I honestly got all bleh, after having to defend my right to draw boundaries..

I mean if that isn't ironic I don't know what is...

[Dylan]

I had no idea this was. Intended to be a femme only space. It was in the 'community' area and not the Femme Zone'. Truly had no idea it was for femmes only to talk about how they cause/affect communication/friendships/whatever between butches and men.

Would have respected the space had I known

I'm kind of confused about how people can have a conversation about their affect on a group to which they don't belong...as that to me seems rather privileged (which is what I *think* Firie was saying), because how would the people outside the group know what the issues are, but ok.

My apologies for invading


Dylan

P.S. hope things get better soon, Snow...cyberhugs

[The_Lady_Snow]

I had no idea this was. Intended to be a femme only space. It was in the 'community' area and not the Femme Zone'. Truly had no idea it was for femmes only to talk about how they cause/affect communication/friendships/whatever between butches and men.

Would have respected the space had I known

I'm kind of confused about how people can have a conversation about their affect on a group to which they don't belong...as that to me seems rather privileged (which is what I *think* Firie was saying), because how would the people outside the group know what the issues are, but ok.

My apologies for invading


Dylan

P.S. hope things get better soon, Snow...cyberhugs


Hence why I made the post about Metropolis community thread, I chose the wrong wording, my intent wasn't clear, and the space I put this in.

I should of thought it thoroughly.

Though I do have to at this point, this far into the thread, it's an everyone voice and it's been working, or we can have Linus yet again put it elsewhere so everyone is happy.

I for one, am signing out for the day I have bigger issues.

[firie]

Snow,

I wasn't saying you were priviliged. No, I apologize if it seemed that way!

I am sorry you are dealing with so much, so I'll keep this short, as you are in our thoughts, as is Super Femme.

Thanks for responding, truly.

[Gemme]

No really.

Do you know what I am talking about?

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.


Sweet Baby Jeesus, I do this. Not often, thankfully, but I have done it in the past. I can't think of any recent times. Perhaps I'm growing up or maybe mellowing with the passing of another birthday.

I know that I am definitely protective of those I love and like a lot. I sometimes have to bite my tongue to not speak out in support of them. I try not to talk for another but if I see someone is not getting "it" and I do, then I may try to clarify. I'm getting better at doing this from my perspective, and that's definitely a good thing.

I've read the whole thread and everything I've wanted to touch on has already been highlighted, so I will try not to be redundant.

What I got out of something amiyesiam said was this: we all influence one another and I believe that to be true. One pebble, dropped into a pond, sends ripples all the way out to the farther edges of the water line on all sides.

One pebble. One person. One moment. One word.

One.

We are all connected and the sooner we realize it and figure out how to work with it, we can strengthen ourselves and our relationships with others.

Your pom poms are fine, beautiful. Just get better.

[AtLast]

I have had unfortunate situations in which a butch/trans friendships have been very stressed (and even lost) due to a butch/trans friend seeing a femme that doesn't care for me (I know, weird, huh- it happens).

On one hand, I get it in terms of the nature of relationships and what battles we all choose to fight or not with partners. On the other side, when I have been in this situation with a partner/someone I am dating, I am clear that my friends are my friends and I will be loyal to them. Of course, whenever we enter a relationship, there are shifts in time availability, etc. so usually there is a change in the time I spend with the friends I relate to outside of the relationship, but I don't cut them off.

I don't know if this is true for many butches/transmen, but I find it hard to make good friendships with other butches/transmen, often. So, when I do, it matters a lot to me.

There are issues I have run into with femme friends too when they start to see someone, but I think there are different variables at work there- and it isn't the topic of the thread.

To be honest, since I have joined the B-F dynamic fully (wasn’t so for many years), I have found thought that there is quite a bit of interference with friendships all the way around within the dynamic. It has not felt the same as it was in my more lesbian-only days or as a heterosexual in a couple or dating. Have no idea why this is so- and I in now ay know am generalizing about this- just speaking from my own experience. Jealousy has seemed to be much more prominent to me. None of this has felt good at all and I keep trying to figure it out. I am a boundary motivated person, always have been. I don’t cross them, especially romantically. Why? I have seen the adage “if she cheats with you, she will cheat on you” happen around me far too many times! No drama. please! Obviously, I am from the monogamous variety, not everyone is, so this could play out quite differently for other people.

I have never experienced a femme speaking for me as some posters have talked about. not even in the very long-term relationships I have been in. But, both of these women were fairly reserved, so that might have something to do with it. Although, both were good conversationalists and had huge knowledge bases to draw conversation from. Then there is just the usual kinds of things around how we all may feel more or less comfortable at certain gatherings, etc. and who we are around that influences how much we engage.

maybe I am not seeing things clearly, dunno.

[Nat]

I have been in a few situations where a person close to me did everything they could to isolate me from my friends and family. This was achieved in a variety of ways by a few different people and it was effective. One person actually lied about the behavior of those I was close to - and was a convincing liar! I only figured out how convincing that person was, when that person began lying about me to other people (also convincingly!) - which further isolated me (and freaked me out). Other more normal methods of isolating a partner just involve criticizing whomever that partner has as a friend or family member. If the person you're with keeps stating that whatever person is not a real friend or doesn't really care about you or *fill in the blank* and they seem like reasonable people, it can get to you after a while.

I guess I'm saying all this because my first impulse was to say that your butch and trans friends are responsible for their own behavior. But then I began thinking back on the times when I was in situations where I dropped friendships due to the influence of another person, and although it was ultimately my responsibility to stand up to the onslought and maintain my friendships better, there was a fair amount of emotional abuse I was dealing with as well which made me unfit for friendship and unable to discern what was actually true due to the gaslighting.

So I guess I think butches, femmes and transmen should all make it a point not to discourage a partner's friendships whether or not they themselves jibe with a particular friend. I think there's a difference when a person has a problem with only one of the person's friends or of that person is actively isolating that person from others - which is an abuse pattern.

I also saw my best friend's straight cisgender boyfriend completely drop his long-term friendship with another man because that guy was really rude to my friend.

Since you mentioned boundaries -

I stopped hanging out with a (straightish) friend since I've been in my current relationship because she asked me to kiss her and when I told her no, I'm in a monogamous relationship, she started crying and asked why we had never been in a relationship. She was drinking at the time, and I consider her a friend, but I also feel like I can't hang out with her anymore without violating my relationship.

When I was new to the bf dynamic, I made friends with a couple and ended up totally crushing out on one of them. I never did anything about it, never said anything to this person about it, never attempted to break them up, would in fact talk them up to each other as a rule, never made a pass, never stated my feelings until they had themselves been broken up for many months and the other party had moved on - i thought at the time that I maintained a boundary by acting as though it was only friendship that I felt - but I figured out that the amount of availability, deference, care toward that person (and the lack of those things toward that person's partner) was invasive of that relationship.

I decided after that, if I ever have feelings like that again for a friend and either of us are in a relationship, I will put distance between us until those feelings fade. When a person has feelings, it shows and it's different than being a friend even if you're doing only friend stuff with that person. I couldn't tell that at the time - I had never run into a situation like that before. In my straight friendships, there had never been a need for a boundary other than, "don't do anything physical with this person." But in the queer world, so much emotional betrayal seems possible without physical intimacy being a factor. It's probably like that in the straight world too, but I just didn't have enough feelings about any of it for that to be a danger in my world back in my "straight" life.

[AtLast]

I have been in a few situations where a person close to me did everything they could to isolate me from my friends and family. This was achieved in a variety of ways by a few different people and it was effective. One person actually lied about the behavior of those I was close to - and was a convincing liar! I only figured out how convincing that person was, when that person began lying about me to other people (also convincingly!) - which further isolated me (and freaked me out). Other more normal methods of isolating a partner just involve criticizing whomever that partner has as a friend or family member. If the person you're with keeps stating that whatever person is not a real friend or doesn't really care about you or *fill in the blank* and they seem like reasonable people, it can get to you after a while.

I guess I'm saying all this because my first impulse was to say that your butch and trans friends are responsible for their own behavior. But then I began thinking back on the times when I was in situations where I dropped friendships due to the influence of another person, and although it was ultimately my responsibility to stand up to the onslought and maintain my friendships better, there was a fair amount of emotional abuse I was dealing with as well which made me unfit for friendship and unable to discern what was actually true due to the gaslighting.

So I guess I think butches, femmes and transmen should all make it a point not to discourage a partner's friendships whether or not they themselves jibe with a particular friend. I think there's a difference when a person has a problem with only one of the person's friends or of that person is actively isolating that person from others - which is an abuse pattern.

I also saw my best friend's straight cisgender boyfriend completely drop his long-term friendship with another man because that guy was really rude to my friend.

Since you mentioned boundaries -

I stopped hanging out with a (straightish) friend since I've been in my current relationship because she asked me to kiss her and when I told her no, I'm in a monogamous relationship, she started crying and asked why we had never been in a relationship. She was drinking at the time, and I consider her a friend, but I also feel like I can't hang out with her anymore without violating my relationship.

When I was new to the bf dynamic, I made friends with a couple and ended up totally crushing out on one of them. I never did anything about it, never said anything to this person about it, never attempted to break them up, would in fact talk them up to each other as a rule, never made a pass, never stated my feelings until they had themselves been broken up for many months and the other party had moved on - i thought at the time that I maintained a boundary by acting as though it was only friendship that I felt - but I figured out that the amount of availability, deference, care toward that person (and the lack of those things toward that person's partner) was invasive of that relationship.

I decided after that, if I ever have feelings like that again for a friend and either of us are in a relationship, I will put distance between us until those feelings fade. When a person has feelings, it shows and it's different than being a friend even if you're doing only friend stuff with that person. I couldn't tell that at the time - I had never run into a situation like that before. In my straight friendships, there had never been a need for a boundary other than, "don't do anything physical with this person." But in the queer world, so much emotional betrayal seems possible without physical intimacy being a factor. It's probably like that in the straight world too, but I just didn't have enough feelings about any of it for that to be a danger in my world back in my "straight" life.

WOW, you speak to many layers I have struggled with and was trying to discern in my post. Some points that do help in trying to wade through these dynamics. Thanks.

I agree that at times, one does have to do some distancing if there are any "other than friend" feelings.

In the lesbian relationship I was in for 21 years (and began when I was 27), what you bring up- so much emotional betrayal seems possible without physical intimacy being a factor- was something that happened between my partner and me that I never experienced in my straight relationships. It was very difficult to figure this out at the time and get her to see it. She believed that since she wasn't "doing anything" physical with another woman, that there was "no betrayal." It wasn't until we were in therapy together that she finally got this.

Yes, emotional abuse factors can be part of control issues in a relationship and isolating a partner. On the other hand, what I have felt mostly is simply what can happen when a friend couples with someone and there is just dislike between me and that person. Or, our personalities just don't jive- which happens. But, if that person engages in lying about me to others as a means to isolate me from a friend and even to destroy my reputation, that is over the top and a sign of instability and viciousness as far as I'm concerned.

Yikes... it is all quite complicated! I have learned through the years that true friends that are stable and possess an inward sense of justice and are not prone to narcissism in these matters do not listen to gossip (actually halt it) and actually end up distancing themselves from people that engage in it. And when I think about it, I don’t want friends that will gossip about people anyway!

[Nat]

There's this thing called codependence too. If a person doesn't have the will and the guts to maintain and continue investing in her/hyr/his/hir friendships once a relationship has come into a person's life, then the friendships will often be dropped. Some people really also tend to segregate themselves based on whether single or coupled. Or they refuse to go anywhere or do anything without their partners. This is annoying.

[Nat]

Ps. Do you see this behavior as something femmes do exclusively or more often than others in the community? Do you feel like this femme friend-block falls along identity lines between butches and transmen? Like - do you feel femmes have encouraged your exclusion because of how your identify/experience your gender? If so, I am wondering if this is a common experience for others as well?

[AtLast]

Hummmm.. my personal experience within this particular community has been skewed toward femmes in some ways. But, that really could just be my experience and also based on the fact that I am kind of a hermit and not all that social. So, I feel like my personal "sample" isn't all that reflective of or can be in any way indicative of the B-F community.

There have been times when I have been socializing in real-time at specific B-F groupings that I have witnessed some of the caddy remarks I remember from days of long ago wherein women are taking shots at each other and it was femmes doing so. Stuff like making fun about weight or clothes. Hate that and it has always saddened me in terms of being a woman.

My guess is that it goes on with butches and Transmen, too. Other than a couple of butches/Transmen that I have befriended via Bashes from the old site and kept in contact with, I am not close with any here in real-time. Then again, there is that more reclusive part of me. I'm essentially a homebody and my family comes first. And there are really only two long time friends of mine that I am really close to.

Have to add that this does influence dating for me. When I find that a femme tends to make fun of other femmes or is a gossip, I don't go out with her again. The same would hold for friendships with other butches or transmen.