Respect of Femme Sensabilities

[rlin]

This title worried me... i dont know what else to name it except for this...
i am posting this here instead of the butch or trans zone because i would like to hear what a femme thinks of this also...
i am in no way implying that the femme persuasion is weak...

i saw this post from the fierce Lady Snow...


So lemme make it clear ok?

You and I, ain't homies, we ain't tight...

So, those kinda of comments, keep em to yourself a'ight?

Thank you for listening. _______this was said after someone... really off the cuff..... made a remark about balls... just a slang remark... not sexual...

it made me think of the times when i toss out crude remarks in front of folks that just dont wanna hear them...

my mom taught me to respect a lady... let me state that i see a femme as a lady... someone maybe a bit more refined than myself...

i thought when seeing this of how it is ok here... sometimes... to make sexual remarks in certain contexts... we tend to be a very sexual community i think... (thank goddess!)...
however... there are the times like this when we will try to show comradeship with a crude remark...

might as well scratch our asses and spit...
i wouldnt say to a femme 'hey... nice tits'... i wouldnt elbow her and wink when i make a callous comment...
thats just me...
this example made me think of the fact that some of what makes this unacceptable is the fact that we dont really know the person we are saying it to...
(i havent talked to Ms Snow... i have read lots of her words and feel a bit of familiarity to her... i think from seeing her posts that i surely would never talk to her like she was one of the guys...)
but the fact that we can feel like we sorta know someone from reading there thoughts might promote this kind of familiarity... just a thought

what i wanted to put out there was a hint to the 'butch' side of the community to show a little gentility... i would like to see the stereotype of us being crude to go away...
we can still be crude... just lets remember there is a time and a place for it...

ok folks... fire away... i got my protective armor on...
(would that have been crude if i had stated that i was wearing protection?)

with all good intentions,
rlin

[Oneida]

i saw this post from the fierce Lady Snow...
this was said after someone... really off the cuff..... made a remark about balls... just a slang remark... not sexual...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair...and in order to keep clarity from the get-go here...Snow is the one who used/introduced the term "balls' first in her thread. As in, let's take this conversation by the balls or something like that.

The other person came in to the thread, contributed, then agreed with her by using the term again in the same fashion she did. He was then called-out on it (by Snow) and ugliness ensued.

My inclination at this point is to stick to the fluff threads where I witness more authentic acts of kindness among members. My personal opinion is that the lack of progress or solidarity in some of these other, more controversial threads is not because the issues are too great to solve or achieve consensus on...but that the personalities are getting in the way.

Good luck...

[rlin]

i probably didnt say it loud enough in my opener that i am not calling someone out... i do this myself... in no way am i referencing what (whoever... i forgot who it was) was saying.... i am making a comment on the response that was given... whoever said the balls remark was way above board with their answer to this quote...
no... this isnt a call out... this is an attempt by me to find out if i am correct in assuming this falls under the heading that my mamma taught me... to respect women...
and to see if maybe us butch types would stop doing this would we receive a little more respect ourselves...

[rlin]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair...and in order to keep clarity from the get-go here...Snow is the one who used/introduced the term "balls' first in her thread. As in, let's take this conversation by the balls or something like that.


i didnt remember this... this makes me want to ask about double standards...
even then tho... i think that it is okay for a femme to say these things... i still think that we should refrain when possible... on principle...

[Oneida]

i didnt remember this... this makes me want to ask about double standards...
even then tho... i think that it is okay for a femme to say these things... i still think that we should refrain when possible... on principle...


Agreed...from a personal perspective.

Our methods of communication...the words we choose to use...really demonstrate online so much because online, that's all we have to present who we are.

Have a great day!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I go with intent.....

I read intent in the words, there are some under currents no one knows about nor are you going to know about it.

I don't mind sexual wording, what I do mind is anyone asserting themselves over me, especially when it's a place where people are going to be vulnerable.

Sexual undertones don't hurt me I am no delicate flower, so that's just me.

[waxnrope]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair...and in order to keep clarity from the get-go here...Snow is the one who used/introduced the term "balls' first in her thread. As in, let's take this conversation by the balls or something like that.

The other person came in to the thread, contributed, then agreed with her by using the term again in the same fashion she did. He was then called-out on it (by Snow) and ugliness ensued.
I agree with the synopsis of this interaction.

My inclination at this point is to stick to the fluff threads where I witness more authentic acts of kindness among members. My personal opinion is that the lack of progress or solidarity in some of these other, more controversial threads is not because the issues are too great to solve or achieve consensus on...but that the personalities are getting in the way.
and I witness this as well, these personality, meanness, and other unnecessary ways of being in "community."
Good luck...

... this is an attempt by me to find out if i am correct in assuming this falls under the heading that my mamma taught me... to respect women...
and to see if maybe us butch types would stop doing this would we receive a little more respect ourselves...
see your next comment, buddy. in some respects, I agree; in others, it is a two way street, ya know?
i didnt remember this... this makes me want to ask about double standards...
even then tho... i think that it is okay for a femme to say these things... i still think that we should refrain when possible... on principle...
the examples given above, by Oneida and yourself indicate a double standard ... however, is it possible that Snowy's comment was a general "balls" and the other comment more directed, and personal? I'm going by memory, so don't jump my balls :rofl: if this is not so, please. I am really trying to understand and not further discontent, but to foster mutuality and compassion for one another ...
Agreed...from a personal perspective.

Our methods of communication...the words we choose to use...really demonstrate online so much because online, that's all we have to present who we are.

well, that says it all, doesn't it.

I am new to online communities. I find that having butch brothers here is intoxicating ... literally. And, in being one of the guys again (it's been a long time for me ... long story and a topic jumper), I slipped into persona, actually forgetting that I am in "mixed" company. I am a joker, as you know rlin, and like to laugh and have fun ... most people do crack up with my comments in rl ... I said something that I thought was in keeping with the THREAD and believed innocuous shortly after first joining this site .. there was no malfeasance intended. what I learned from the backlash is that if one does not KNOW or have an already established relationship with the poster, one must tread lightly ... I know that this may be a "duh" for some of you, but it was a reflective moment for me. I think offense occurs when there is not "relationship" established, and therefore takes on the cloak of double-standard. Don't know if this makes sense or no...

Related, but off topic: It is also difficult to post when you are deemed new, and therefore an "outsider" who needs to be (slowly) accepted before getting a response to your posting. These are reflective lessons for me ... I appreciate and do not resent them. However, I do have difficulty with some of the clique behavior, and a few of the threads which FEEL as though anyone outside of a specific group who posts there is unwanted. One can go back and read pages and see that the same people are primarily the only people who post. So, there is another process which contributes to the feeling or sense of being an "outsider." Audre Lorde, my sister, what would you say to this? Oh boy! too much java. Sorry to go on!

[weatherboi]

Hi everybody!!!

Let's talk about respect and priviledge!!!

I see sexual undertones thrown around this space all the time. I have no problem with it until I see a single butch/guy or femme throwing those remarks towards way of people who are partnered. No offense to any one person, but I see it happen all the time. It can be very subtle or it can be blunt, either way it is rude and disrespectful.

Grant

[Dylan]

Wait...

Snow's a lady?

Insert smiley face here

Rlin, would you have started this thread if a butch had been talking to another butch?

I kinda feel like this is one of those 'reascue the delicate femmes 'cuz they're delicate creatures', and honestly, I've kinda had it lately with the placating to femmes

I just think femmes are quite capable of 'rescuing' themselves

Color Me Jaded,
Dylan...my armor is at the shiners this week

[waxnrope]

I go with intent.....

I read intent in the words, there are some under currents no one knows about nor are you going to know about it.

I don't mind sexual wording, what I do mind is anyone asserting themselves over me, especially when it's a place where people are going to be vulnerable.

Sexual undertones don't hurt me I am no delicate flower, so that's just me.

I understand about "intent", but how can we understand another's intent without inquiry? I don't mean the intent of someone with whom we've had ongoing battles ... personality clashes and the like ... rather, the intent of a hapless "Joe"/"Josephine" who has the temerity to just say something that is unwittingly forbidden or just disliked?

How do we know another's vulnerable places unless we are told ... or we step on or trip over them?

Let me retain my image of you as delicate flower ... and I am not asserting myself "over" you by saying this. I get that you are alpha. You say this about yourself. My leg is not raised at all, so to speak. I am simply using a little bit of humor to lighten the convo... and extending a hand to you.

[JustJo]

Interesting idea rlin, thank you :rrose:

I can't speak for femmes in general of course, but I will say that - for myself - I simply respond better to the conversation if it isn't crude.

I very rarely cuss (as in, I have to be either incredibly angry or drop a frozen 5 lb. roast on my toe). I also tend to step back from anger, demeaning or belittling behavior, or significant flirting. The flirting is a relatively new one on the list for me. Like waxnrope, I'm still fairly new to this online community thing...and didn't realize that some people take online flirting seriously, while for others it's a game. Kind of a duh moment for me...

I also appreciate what weatherboi said about the difference between single and partnered people. I always respect partnerships, and try to acknowledge them...if I friend one member, I try to friend the other as well. And, I appreciate it when others do the same.

Just to be clear, I'm not a shrinking violet...I bartended for years, and have been married to two sailors. I know the words...and, in a pinch, could probably outcuss most people...I just prefer not to.

[waxnrope]

Wait...

I just think femmes are quite capable of 'rescuing' themselves

Color Me Jaded,
Dylan...my armor is at the shiners this week

funny, this is what the femmes are saying about the butches on the other thread! :rofl: oh! the irony!!!!! hahahahahaha

[weatherboi]

hi waxnrope,

on the outside i see where you think it may be proper to agree but realize you and Sam walked up into a space where this was stated in post #4 by Snow.

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...


also here is my issue with your post if we all want to be transparent. your inappropriate play on words. here is what i mean...

I don't think that anyone should, um, handle your arse, Lady Snow. just saying

Snow never implied anything about someone handlingher arse....what she said was she didnt want to get her ass handed to her. total differnece in your play on words and what she meant. it is the exact same thing Sam did as well.

I am wondering if it was a butch or trans person saying this would you approach it in that manner?? cause i find your play on words offensive and gross.

Grant







see your next comment, buddy. in some respects, I agree; in others, it is a two way street, ya know?

the examples given above, by Oneida and yourself indicate a double standard ... however, is it possible that Snowy's comment was a general "balls" and the other comment more directed, and personal? I'm going by memory, so don't jump my balls :rofl: if this is not so, please. I am really trying to understand and not further discontent, but to foster mutuality and compassion for one another ...

well, that says it all, doesn't it.

I am new to online communities. I find that having butch brothers here is intoxicating ... literally. And, in being one of the guys again (it's been a long time for me ... long story and a topic jumper), I slipped into persona, actually forgetting that I am in "mixed" company. I am a joker, as you know rlin, and like to laugh and have fun ... most people do crack up with my comments in rl ... I said something that I thought was in keeping with the THREAD and believed innocuous shortly after first joining this site .. there was no malfeasance intended. what I learned from the backlash is that if one does not KNOW or have an already established relationship with the poster, one must tread lightly ... I know that this may be a "duh" for some of you, but it was a reflective moment for me. I think offense occurs when there is not "relationship" established, and therefore takes on the cloak of double-standard. Don't know if this makes sense or no...

Related, but off topic: It is also difficult to post when you are deemed new, and therefore an "outsider" who needs to be (slowly) accepted before getting a response to your posting. These are reflective lessons for me ... I appreciate and do not resent them. However, I do have difficulty with some of the clique behavior, and a few of the threads which FEEL as though anyone outside of a specific group who posts there is unwanted. One can go back and read pages and see that the same people are primarily the only people who post. So, there is another process which contributes to the feeling or sense of being an "outsider." Audre Lorde, my sister, what would you say to this? Oh boy! too much java. Sorry to go on!

[UofMfan]

Threads like these piss me off. They reek of posturing to me.

I was brought up with excellent manners, thank you mom and dad, so I don't understand any of this. I am polite because I was brought up with certain standards that apply to everyone! I like being polite, I don't have to work hard at it, it comes naturally.

The OP, in MY opinion, comes across as saying that femmes are so delicate that they have to be treated a certain way. Treat a femme with decency, like you would treat any other individual worthy of that decency. I seldom agree with Dylan so I am scared shitless that I agree on this, to some degree.

I find that if there is a level of intimacy, certain things are ok with everyone, regardless of gender, id, etc. To me it all boils down to this. How well do I know you?

It really pisses me off to think that just because I id as butch, or male, or fill in the blank _________ I get a free pass to be gross. Not in my book.

The opinions expresses above are mine as a MEMBER of this community.

[weatherboi]

I understand about "intent", but how can we understand another's intent without inquiry? I don't mean the intent of someone with whom we've had ongoing battles ... personality clashes and the like ... rather, the intent of a hapless "Joe"/"Josephine" who has the temerity to just say something that is unwittingly forbidden or just disliked?
the problem lies in the person that stated the comment and them being humble enough to take accountablity for being an asshat. like when i made the mistake of posting in the Tap thread.oy vey did we cause a ruckus. but i took accountablity for being an asshat.

How do we know another's vulnerable places unless we are told ... or we step on or trip over them?

well refrain from saying inappropriate things to people that we dont have that type of relationship with and that will help. humor can be inappropriate also so tread lightly. just because it has a puchline doesnt make it ok to say.

Let me retain my image of you as delicate flower ... and I am not asserting myself "over" you by saying this.
so tell me if she says she is no delicate flower why is it so important to you to keep her in this light for yourself?? does it make you more comfortable when dealing with her?? personally i think it is dismissive to her statement.

I get that you are alpha. You say this about yourself. My leg is not raised at all, so to speak. I am simply using a little bit of humor to lighten the convo... and extending a hand to you.
see this kind of humor i don't find funny and try to steer clear of when approaching a person that i dont know. just a rule of respect to others i follow.



waxnrope i apologize in advance if you take me as harsh but i do see a double standard but it isnt in what Snow did or said...it is in all the reactions surrounding her handling of Sam.

[The_Lady_Snow]

How about someone ask fucking Snow how she wants to be seen, and not just fucking assume..

I am NOT a fucking flower.

I use profanity

watch

FUCK FUCK FUCK

Damn

My fucking answers to Sam were not about my delicate state, I thought I was fucking clear when I handled it..

For fucks sake, I can't fucking believe that is all anyone got from the thread I started

UNFUCKING believeable.

[waxnrope]

hi waxnrope,

on the outside i see where you think it may be proper to agree but realize you and Sam walked up into a space where this was stated in post #4 by Snow.

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...


also here is my issue with your post if we all want to be transparent. your inappropriate play on words. here is what i mean...

I don't think that anyone should, um, handle your arse, Lady Snow. just saying

Snow never implied anything about someone handlingher arse....what she said was she didnt want to get her ass handed to her. total differnece in your play on words and what she meant. it is the exact same thing Sam did as well.

I am wondering if it was a butch or trans person saying this would you approach it in that manner?? cause i find your play on words offensive and gross.

Grant

With re to the handling arse statement, I can see that, in pointing this out, that it is as you say, gross. My apologies to Lady Snow ... my humor was out of line. I have no difficulties with apologies. Just so you know. Nor do I have a problem with your corrective comment. The other issues, I'll need to think about (I'm in a hurry to leave, but wish to make my apology about that statement clear)

[waxnrope]

How about someone ask fucking Snow how she wants to be seen, and not just fucking assume..

I am NOT a fucking flower.

I use profanity

watch

FUCK FUCK FUCK

Damn

My fucking answers to Sam were not about my delicate state, I thought I was fucking clear when I handled it..

For fucks sake, I can't fucking believe that is all anyone got from the thread I started

UNFUCKING believeable.

this is not all that I got from your thread, Lady Snow. I have sent you messages on your rep that indicate this. the flower was a joke and I did not/do not find it something offensive, but used it as a bit of irony, a turn of what you have stated about yourself. I do not know if I can explain it better. It was NOT intended to hurt you or make you angry. To the contrary, it was to make you shake your head and grin. Sorry that it did not do that and you are frustrated about it. As you said in your post, it is intention, and you apparently saw mal intent where none was intended.

[Jett]

Despite you apparently good intention, ironically threads like these create an image in peeps heads that butches are all spit and ball scratching and need to be told how to behave in front of "the ladies" and femmes need a butch to speak up for them.

Seriously I already know how to interact with folks, femme, butch or transpeople, het people... any people. Shit I've never even read the TOS on sites because at this point in life hopefully we know where the hell the lines are (I did read the TOS here coming on as a mod of course).

*doesn't go around woot-wooting at womens asses, or head butting my buddies while burping the alphabet real life either*
Metro

[UofMfan]

MODERATING:

I can see this thread is heading in the direction I was afraid it would head.

I am about to close down this thread as it has turned out to be a personal vendetta, just like I saw it form the get go.


People, if you have personal issues to iron out, please do so PRIVATELY, do not use threads to get throw in those jabs and think it is going to go under the radar, It isn't!

[Melissa]

i didnt remember this... this makes me want to ask about double standards...
even then tho... i think that it is okay for a femme to say these things... i still think that we should refrain when possible... on principle...

It doesn't seem right to me that it is ok for a femme to say this but not a butch. I think we should take gender id out of the mix and just say that civil conversation seems to be on the wane in many places, not just here. I would like to see a rise in civiility and politeness and general respect for another person when online or face to face. We have lost that, and we lost it years ago.

I'm not placing blame on any person, group or generation. We have lost the art of conversation and debate. Conversation and debate were once considered arts. Now its just a free for all under the guise of freedom or individuality or personal rights or whatever you want to frame it as. I believe that trash talk, cursing etc in a public forum is not a right or appropriate. If you have to curse or scream to get your point across then people are going to tune you out.

Melissa

[The_Lady_Snow]

It doesn't seem right to me that it is ok for a femme to say this but not a butch. I think we should take gender id out of the mix and just say that civil conversation seems to be on the wane in many places, not just here. I would like to see a rise in civiility and politeness and general respect for another person when online or face to face. We have lost that, and we lost it years ago.

I'm not placing blame on any person, group or generation. We have lost the art of conversation and debate. Conversation and debate were once considered arts. Now its just a free for all under the guise of freedom or individuality or personal rights or whatever you want to frame it as. I believe that trash talk, cursing etc in a public forum is not a right or appropriate. If you have to curse or scream to get your point across then people are going to tune you out.

Melissa


I don't like when people assume things about decorum and how language should be used. I happen to have an extensive vocabulary, sometimes though I opt for throwing in a FUCK here and there. I assure you, it does not stump conversation and frankly sometimes a good fuck here and there and a god damn it can get the point across, cause when you try to be all nicey nice some ass clown is still going to push your fucking boundaries.

Oh

And yes I kiss my boyfriend, mother, father with this mouth

[DapperButch]

I go with intent.....

I read intent in the words, there are some under currents no one knows about nor are you going to know about it.



I understand about "intent", but how can we understand another's intent without inquiry? I don't mean the intent of someone with whom we've had ongoing battles ... personality clashes and the like ... rather, the intent of a hapless "Joe"/"Josephine" who has the temerity to just say something that is unwittingly forbidden or just disliked?

How do we know another's vulnerable places unless we are told ... or we step on or trip over them?



Hey, waxnrope.

I know nothing about Snow and Sam's history, but my guess is that they have one.

I am also guessing that her response is based on that history. So, for all I know, it could be a very appropriate response. Or, it could not make any sense to me. I don't know.

From my vantage point this thread was started by rlin (correct me if I am wrong, rlin), b/c she/he/hy assumed that there was no connection and no history.

My point is, the above statement by Snow tells me that I don't know jack shit what the subtext is from that interaction.

I am wondering if maybe you are approaching this from the assumption that there is no history here?

As a side note, I really think it is pretty funky to take a post from one thread and start a new thread on it (without permission). Especially when it is about someone. I know you are new here, rlin (and I absolutely believe you when you say you have good intentions), but I just wanted to say this in general.

[little man]

wouldn't it have been easier (on all concerned) to censure sam privately, as the rest of us had no clue what was going on? i read him as using the phrase in the context snow had originally posted it. forum would be easier to wade through if private beefs stayed private.

[MsDemeanor]

forum would be easier to wade through if private beefs stayed private.
Yeah, but the entertainment value for the rest of us would plunge.

:slapfight:

[Sam]

There is NO History between Snow and I. Can you get off the subject now?




Hey, waxnrope.

I know nothing about Snow and Sam's history, but my guess is that they have one.

I am also guessing that her response is based on that history. So, for all I know, it could be a very appropriate response. Or, it could not make any sense to me. I don't know.

From my vantage point this thread was started by rlin (correct me if I am wrong, rlin), b/c she/he/hy assumed that there was no connection and no history.

My point is, the above statement by Snow tells me that I don't know jack shit what the subtext is from that interaction.

I am wondering if maybe you are approaching this from the assumption that there is no history here?

As a side note, I really think it is pretty funky to take a post from one thread and start a new thread on it (without permission). Especially when it is about someone. I know you are new here, rlin (and I absolutely believe you when you say you have good intentions), but I just wanted to say this in general.

Way too many opinions flashing around, that has nothing to do with this thread.

[little man]

good manners never go out of style. or so my grandma always told me.

once we've established personal friendships with people, we learn what their tolerances are for ribald humor and profanity and what kind of porn they like. until we've established a personal relationship with someone, we should show the respect we'd like to have shown us upon initial contact.

i don't like the *wink-wink, nudge-nudge* stuff in my day to day life. the friends i have do not engage in that behavior with me. i swear like a sailor and know when to curb it...in polite company. i do have decent manners and exercise them regularly.

i don't, however, think that femmes, females, women are entitled to *more* respect than anyone else. we all should have a sense of decency and propriety that we operate under. vulgarity is just plain unattractive.

this may even make sense outside my head.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Once again

Snow is quite fucking happy with the way she handled her situation with Sam. If ya don't like the way I use profanity, I don't know what to tell ya.. *I* as a femme am not asking anything be cleaned up on my delicate account. I am comfortable for asking someone not to take a friendly tone when we aren't tight like that cause frankly that is how this whole fucking thread came about.

So the OP's intent is for femme's to be talked to in a more delicate manner, *I* for one don't need that, I am not going to wilt nor run to the altar kneel and say 33 hail mary's.

Not how *I* roll

[MsDemeanor]

*crosses 'pedestal upon which delicate femme may be displayed' off list of possible birthday gifts for Snow*

[evolveme]

Unrelated to the topic, except kinda not:

Are people generally more offended when they hear/read femmes/feminine people cussin' and a'swearin' than when they hear/read masculine people doing it? How about in the referencing of sex/use of vulgarity, generally?

I just wonder what y'all think.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Unrelated to the topic, except kinda not:

Are people generally more offended when they hear/read femmes/feminine people cussin' and a'swearin' than when they hear/read masculine people doing it? How about in the referencing of sex/use of vulgarity, generally?

I just wonder what y'all think.


I have experienced and this is me talking for ME..

I have experienced that when I choose to be vulgar, sexually open open, I get the shaking of the head in disapproval due to be being feminine. The ol' ladies don't talk that way shit.

It's like that damn Madonna complex....

[PearlsNLace]

I dont know if it makes me a delicate flower..

( I really dont see myself as one, but opinions are like sets of skin. We all have one)


I curse sometimes. But Id rather not be hanging out in an environment where every other word that comes out of someones mouth is a F*cken mother F*cker, or worse.
And I dont really care whos mouth its comming out of. A femmes, a butchs, or paphigleos for that matter.

It doesnt offend delicate sensibilities. I just feel akward and out of place in such a conversation.

I get in places in my life when I feel less articulate and the cussing increases. That usually passes when I figure out what issue Im struggling with at the time. It can take a week or 2 for me to sort it all out.

I believe I treat people with respect and dignity. I would like to be treated similarly. And I dont feel that its different across the butch femme spectrum.

That being said- there is a bit of The Dance, of being treated with extra courtesy specifically because I am a lady, that does thrill me.

I will freely admit it. I love it. If those are silly old antiquated rules, Im ok with that. If that makes me a delicate flower, well, then fine. Ill be a an Orange Poppy, my home states flower then.


I dont believe such a desire to be treated with a degree of decorum and respect makes me any more or less awesome. Nor does the lack of such desire for that treatment make anyone more or less awesome. We just roll different ways.

[Liam]

Unrelated to the topic, except kinda not:

Are people generally more offended when they hear/read femmes/feminine people cussin' and a'swearin' than when they hear/read masculine people doing it? How about in the referencing of sex/use of vulgarity, generally?

I just wonder what y'all think.

I don't appreciate vulgarity or profanity, period—it doesn't matter what their gender is, or how they identify. However I learned long ago that my mouth is the only mouth I can (hopefully,) control.

[TenderKnight]

Unrelated to the topic, except kinda not:

Are people generally more offended when they hear/read femmes/feminine people cussin' and a'swearin' than when they hear/read masculine people doing it? How about in the referencing of sex/use of vulgarity, generally?

I just wonder what y'all think.

You know, honestly, I don't care who cusses and makes sexual comments.. We are all human and all over 18 (I assume). I doubt very much if some femme is going to read something a butch or transguy says and faint dead away from shock, falling upon her fainting couch to be saved by a fan and a sniff of smelling salts.. Nor will a butch implode into a shocked shell if a femme says "fuck"..

I *get* the idea that some folks feel the need to act a certain way in front of other people and groups.. I don't get why there needs to be a thread(s) created to teach or couch folks on how to act in "polite" company.

It has been said before, manners and respect are just that.. Using your head and gut to know when a topic or even the TONE of a topic isn't where you'd start flirting or throwing around curse words for no good reason (diffrent from using curse words for impact or to add flaver to a heated post), is something that is learned as you grow up and are socialized as a person.. If someone hasn't learned when to keep thier mouth shut or when and where something is uncalled for, then by god, let them learn here.

The creation of ethical/moral threads irks me. I have my own personal morals and ethics, as we all do.. I don't handle femmes with kid gloves just because they are femmes. God knows, there are some femmes on here that scare me shitless! In a good way, mostly, lol. Do I tangle with them? No, I don't.. There are also some femmes that are softer and I treat them as such..

That being said, the same goes for Butches, Transgender peoples, Lesbains, and Queers.. Hell.. It goes for the whole human race, as far as I'm concerned. People are people.. Some people like to scream and shout, even when they aren't really angry, some people never raise thier voice at all, even when they want to do murder..

My point is, I try to use my best judgement in my interactions with the rest of humanity.. If I cross a line, I own it and try to correct it. If someone steps on my toes, I let them know, or don't, depending on if that person really matters to me in the long run.

That's all I got.. For the record, I don't own kid gloves, but I do own a pair of vampire gloves.. So usually, I just keep them off ;)

-Tony

[evolveme]

ABC has a show called What Would You Do, which is premised in the research of social psychology and which tests people's real world biases like racism and sexism. Maybe you've seen it. Often if you ask someone whether they'd help a woman in distress (i.e., being publicly abused by her boyfriend) no matter who she is, most people will tell you that they would. But the reality is that in scenarios where the woman is demurely dressed, some people do help, and in scenarios where the woman is more provocatively dressed, nearly no one offers to help. It's in their bias.

Same is true in scenarios where people witness white boys committing an act of vandalism (few people intervene) as opposed to when they witness black kids committing an act of vandalism (LOTS of folks call 911). Still, they *say* that it didn't matter whether the boys were black or white, they would have done the same thing. But in reality, people didn't actually do the same thing.

So when people tell me that they make no judgment between a male or masculine person who swears or uses vulgarity and a feminine person who does, when our culture tells us that feminine people are supposed to behave demurely and to be good, I disagree. I think that our true biases are other. In spite of what we think we feel, I just don't buy what we're saying we feel.

[Corkey]

So you are basically questioning peoples honesty with your own bias? Yea I can see how that would be a problem.
I don't care if a femme, butch str8 gay trans what ever label you want to attach cusses. I'm an adult, if it offends me I'll say something. Thing is it usually doesn't unless the (word) in question is racist, sexist, agist, fat intolerant, or in other words is attacking another human being.

[Nat]

Before (and if) this thread gets shut down, I wanted to thank the OP because the opening post reminded me of some situations I found myself in several years ago.

There was a certain group of people I would hang out with at times - usually go to the bars with and sometimes go to parties with. Except for one person who actually is a member here, these were all lesbians (at least that's my memory) - some of whom appeared butch but didn't seem to claim it necessarily and were not part of the community.

A few (most) of this group didn't seem to know what a femme was. To me, when I was around these people, I felt like I was in mixed company, but they didn't see our interactions through the same lens. They would ask me why I was wearing a dress at a party, and I remember trying to imagine what in my closet they thought would qualify as appropriate with them. It seemed like crudity was a goal at times with this group, though as individuals they were quite nice.

Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but as a femme it has in the past been awkward to me when I'm around people who think all lesbians are the same and that we should all act like fratboys and be comfy with that. I'm just not that kind of person. I remember asking the other person who's a member of the community, "Do you think they realize they are in mixed company??" I don't think this group understood butch or trans identities any better than femmes though.

I don't know, I'm not usually very prudish, but I definitely felt like a flower (stuck in a beer can) a few times with that crowd. Most of the butches I know have more decorum than I do, so at the time I thought maybe it's because they came from this worldview where all lesbians were expected to be comfortable in that kind of environment, whereas the femme/butch world allows for more difference?

Or it may have just been that little group of people. (Most likely that's the case). Have any other femmes run into this in the lesbian (non-femmebutch) mainstream?

PS. I use profane language and talk about sex probably daily. I'm trying to think what the difference was. Like, I really don't wanna be privy to locker room talk unless its femme locker room talk.

[rlin]

when i put this thread out here i was seriously most interested in how the fact that we knew each other vicariously thru the forum might cause us to use over-familiarity when addressing folks around here...
but... i was also obviously thinking of how [we] tend to posture when we want to connect...
i am happy to see that i have all kindsa opinions to sift thru and learn from... that is the point of this post... so that i can learn... that is why i come to this forum... to learn...

i used a quote from a public forum using very little background from the conversation it came from... i did this because i found these words as a stand-alone to be compelling... i wanted to discuss this phenomena

i want to publicly apologize to Lady Snow for opening her up to conversation... i can plead the fact that i am :new: but... in actuality i am really more obviously a dumbass... i honestly didnt even consider the fact that folks would take this anywhere other than what i spoke of in my opener... i thought we would speak of language...

i sincerely apologize to you Ma'am... if you can think of a way that i can make this palatable for you... i will give it my damndest to do so...


rlin

[evolveme]

So you are basically questioning peoples honesty with your own bias? Yea I can see how that would be a problem.
I don't care if a femme, butch str8 gay trans what ever label you want to attach cusses. I'm an adult, if it offends me I'll say something. Thing is it usually doesn't unless the (word) in question is racist, sexist, agist, fat intolerant, or in other words is attacking another human being.

Well, Corkey, I utilized the term "we," in order to show solidarity and in an attempt not to "other" my listener. I knew that whether I did that or not wouldn't matter, because more often than not, and quite unfortunately, people tend to personalize the opinions of others, as you appear to have done here.

See, I use profanity quite often. Perhaps it's a matter of class conditioning and that I've never made the attempt to rewire my language so that others could feel more comfortable or accept my language as less-offensive.

As a result, and like Snow, I've been told, that I should use more appropriate language for a "lady" more times than I can count. In nearly every relationship that I've been in, when my then-partner wished to hurt me, I was told I was "trashy," not that it hurt. Corkey, I'm not trashy, but my mother was born of poor and not-even-working class people.

Subsequently, I've witnessed how much more free men and masculine people are to use profane terms and expressions. Further, if a masculine person does not hold to certain Emily Post-like protocols, well, s/he/hy's just being a guy. But far be it for a woman to let fly a "good goddamn" on a Sunday morning, brother. My opinion is that folks really don't feel the same about it. And I think there is a perfectly patriarchal, socially-conditioned reason for it.

Which means it isn't personal. Not one bit.

[Corkey]

Why are you calling it patriarchy? Adults cuss, my mom cussed often at my dad, he didn't return the favor. Perhaps it is your situation and not patriarchy at all.

[evolveme]

As a result, and like Snow, I've been told, that I should use more appropriate language for a "lady" more times than I can count.

Subsequently, I've witnessed how much more free men and masculine people are to use profane terms and expressions. Further, if a masculine person does not hold to certain Emily Post-like protocols, well, s/he/hy's just being a guy. But far be it for a woman to let fly a "good goddamn" on a Sunday morning, brother. My opinion is that folks really don't feel the same about it. And I think there is a perfectly patriarchal, socially-conditioned reason for it.

Which means it isn't personal. Not one bit.

Why are you calling it patriarchy? Adults cuss, my mom cussed often at my dad, he didn't return the favor. Perhaps it is your situation and not patriarchy at all.

I'm calling it patriarchy because I believe it is the conditions of the patriarchy (or more appropriately, the kyriarchy) that set in place the circumstances by which women and girls have been oppressed, suppressed and trained in such ways as to "groom" them (hi, Dylan) to be what is considered meek, good, well-mannered, palatable, and presentable - all so that they are more easily controlled.

What about this do you think is specific merely to my situation rather than being patriarchal?

That's kind of rhetorical, by the way.

[The_Lady_Snow]

My momma and daddy raised me to speak my mind, whichever way I choose to.

:cigar2:

*spit*

[blush]

I reallyreally don't need anyone to protect me from words.

One of the reasons I continue to participate in these forums is I appreciate the rawness of them. How boring the world would be if we all talked and wrote like newscasters.

As far as manners and decorum go, we all know people who have "perfect" manners and slit throats. I appreciate good manners, but I appreciate proven integrity more.

I've also noticed we've(the community "we") have gotten into the habit of referencing apocryphal posts that have existed in threads and may be taken out of context and used to prove points. For me, it's confusing because I don't know the context or intent of the mystery post. Has anyone else felt this way, or does this cheese stand alone? (rlin, I'm not calling you out. It's a trend I'm seeing.)

[Corkey]

Put it this way, I was never "groomed" to be anything other that who I am, not the baby stuff, the dress stuff, not the marriage to a man stuff. That is why I call it situational, and not patriarchy.

[evolveme]

Put it this way, I was never "groomed" to be anything other that who I am, not the baby stuff, the dress stuff, not the marriage to a man stuff. That is why I call it situational, and not patriarchy.

Your first sentence is confusing. It could mean that you were groomed to be who you are, in which case, you're not leaving much room for the element of personal identity and how it might arise independent of the nurture conundrum. I, too, am a lot of things despite my "grooming." Or it could mean that despite the way you were groomed - to include your infancy/childhood, having to wear dresses, and whether or not you were married/encouraged to marry - you are who you are. Again, it isn't clear. Still, none of this - not one bit - changes the reality that women and female bodied people, and cismen and boys as well - live in a kyriarchical society and are oppressed by the conditions of that society. It effects the way we are raised, and places expectations of behavior onto us out of its power-over paradigm.

So however you, Corkey, became who you are is really irrelevant to whether the patriarchy exists and fully impacts the reality of women and girls every-motherfucking-where. It just does. To say "It's just situational," is a flat out denial of its existence, and that is seriously dangerous thinking.

[Corkey]

Sorry going to disagree with you, I am allowed to do so. If I've confused you, well here is clarification. I was not raised to be a woman, I was raised to be a human being.

[Bob]

SjxY9rZwNGU

[Corkey]

OK Bob that was dramatic, and not really to the point of my remarks. Drive by perhaps.

[Bob]

OK Bob that was dramatic, and not really to the point of my remarks. Drive by perhaps.

How exactly can you be 'respectful of femme sensibilities' when it's clear you orbit around no sun but your own?

[Corkey]

How exactly can you be 'respectful of femme sensibilities' when it's clear you orbit around no sun but your own?

I don't orbit around yours you mean. I am an individual and not a sheep, so just because I happen to disagree with you and e I'm the bad guy. How positively profound of you Bob.

[Bob]

Meanwhile, back to the topic at hand...

[Corkey]

By all means....

[Bob]

Actually, I don't get the point of this thread. Nowhere are these so-called 'femme sensabilities[sic]' defined.

In fact, I don't think there are such a thing as 'femme sensibilities'. At least, not in the context of what appears to be a conversation about basic manners and common civility. One's gender identification doesn't grant one special privileges or immunities.

[Mister Bent]

Actually, I don't get the point of this thread. Nowhere are these so-called 'femme sensabilities[sic]' defined.

In fact, I don't think there are such a thing as 'femme sensibilities'. At least, not in the context of what appears to be a conversation about basic manners and common civility. One's gender identification doesn't grant one special privileges or immunities.

Another place to discuss, ad nauseam, the patriarchy?

(Because we don't have enough and no one, apparently, "gets it.")

But then, I only speculate.

And await the backlash.

[apretty]

talk amongst yourselves anyway you'd like--i don't *prefer* to read ball-talk unless it's *obviously* ironic and that's not because how i do *femme*, that's because 'ball-talk' isn't clever (and that, my friends, is a fate far worse than death).

*to be fair, i have a low tolerance for tedium and anything i deem less than clever.

[apretty]

One's gender identification doesn't grant one special privileges or immunities.

except, except! when the lady-time got me out of PE in high school (don't take that away from me!!!)

*and i may still try to pull the lady-card when it comes to tidying, feeding the dogs, dishes... (or anything else i would REALLY prefer E to do).

[The_Lady_Snow]

Balls...

I just had to say it again, cause who knew WHO KNEW that would incite all this... Who knew that someone enforcing boundaries would ensue all this..

:praying:

I now see why Worm prefers castles made of blankets and pillows.

:vigil:

[Lynn]

I guess I am stuck at the notion of "femme sensibility" being a lady thing that must be protected by someone more masculine than I. It just feels sexist to me. While I may be feminine and appear to be a lady (to the world, maybe to you), these are attributes of mine. They are qualities that reflect something about me. They aren't ME. I'm a small, soft-spoken woman who says "fuck" a lot. And other things which might affect your sensibilities, whatever they may be.

If I don't like how I'm spoken to, I am likely to say something. I hope you would do the same. But, I don't ask people to change to suit me. I may prefer to be in an environment where people mainly treat each other as they would like to be treated, but I don't need or want anyone watching out for my delicate linguistic constitution. In fact, the idea of it is more off-putting to me than using any particular word in any particular context. What is validating and empowering is when I am given the space to respond the way I honestly feel, and where you (the general you) show respect for what I say.

[Gayla]

I tend to adjust my behavior, language, etc. based on what I'm doing and who I'm doing it with. I guess I've never thought of this as some weird thing, rather as just basic social skills and respect.

Sometimes I say bad words, use more slang and end sentences with prepositions and other times I don't. And yes, it's totally based on the people involved. Not because I think someone may not be able to "handle" it or that I, in some icky, fucked up way, must "protect" them but just because sometimes it's not appropriate. I'm not going to speak the same way to a client that I would to someone here. I also don't speak to everyone here the same because I don't have the same level of familiarity. I may say something to oblivia that I would never say to Nat or something to Corkey that I'd never say to Hack. I think it's all about social skills, respect levels and appropriateness.

I don't think that I adjust my language much differently around femmes although there probably is a little bit of subconscious old schoolness going on that I'm not fully aware of. I think that's probably more of a respect thing then a protection thing, but I'll have to think about that.

I also don't think I've ever felt the urge to go rushing into a thread out of a need to defend a femme. I don't know any that can't defend themselves.

[Kosmo]

Unrelated to the topic, except kinda not:

Are people generally more offended when they hear/read femmes/feminine people cussin' and a'swearin' than when they hear/read masculine people doing it? How about in the referencing of sex/use of vulgarity, generally?

I just wonder what y'all think.

I am not offended when I read it here, but I have to say that if, my sister, for instance started dropping some crude (in my definition) vocabulary, I would be taken back by it.

My parents cussed and swore alot. Mostly when they argued which was basically very often. The language could be quite crude at best. So I think for me, it triggers bad stuff. My partner has cussed/sworn and I am taken by surprise because it's somewhat rare, but, unless it falls in my crude category, I'm ok with it.

I just never gravitated to using them in conversation on a daily basis.

[Dylan]

Ok, so I have been thinking...cuz that's something I do sometimes.

Now while I know very well that femmes can take care of themselves, and can speak their minds, I have to say, it pisses me off when butches act like frat boys (and I say that specifically about butches, because I've never seen femmes do it in the same sexist way I've seen butches do it)...but I especially don't like it when butches do this around femmes. This isn't something new...I've started threads on the topic.

Nat described an event in a previous post. I was the other member who was at that gathering. The behavior was horrible. Now, I've been around butches who act like that when it's just the butches, and it skeeves me out, but when there's a femme friend there it's 100 times skeevier. And while I don't feel a need to 'protect', I do feel more compelled to say something about it. These particular butches' behavior was absolutely ghastly. In fact, that gathering was one of the last times I saw any of those people. It's definitely the last time I saw them as a group. I did say something to the one I knew the best, and she said, "What? We're all girls here." Which is the answer I hate the most...but I have a really hard time with female bodied people (especially...I have a hard time with male bodied people too) acting like complete misogynist assholes under the "What? We are all girls" excuse.

I've been in this position with another butch in which she objectified femmes in the most disgusting way possible...including Mahhh Woman and Lipsy...well and almlst every femme at a couple different gatherings. I'm sorry, but when you stand behind Mahhh Woman and make comments about her bootay,and you talk about her (and other femmes whom I consider friends) like pieces of meat...I'm gonna have a problem with that.

Would I have a problem if I saw femmes do this? I honestly don't know, because I've never heard a group of femmes make the same disgusting comments. And I'm not talking about cussing or being ironically frat boy esque...I'm talking about being misogynistically GROSS.

Also...this whole 'butches and femmes are the same' line of thinking makes me call bullshit. Because if that were the case, wouldn't that just make everyone here a tweener or andro or whatever the correct word of the week is for 'run of the mill average'? Why would we have a 'dance' or 'energy' or 59 bajillion threads on gender breakdowns?

And I'm not talking about rescuing anyone or protecting anyone...I'm talking about misogynistic, piggish, inappropriate talk that always (in my experience) directed at femmes in my community. And I've seen where IF a femme DOES say something they're mocked as 'cute' or 'eyerolled' or literally laughed at.


Hope I'm Clear,
Dylan

And one more thing. I have and will continue to say something in these circumstances or in circumstances where men are involved because I know I will be taken more seriously

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ok, so I have been thinking...cuz that's something I do sometimes.

Now while I know very well that femmes can take care of themselves, and can speak their minds, I have to say, it pisses me off when butches act like frat boys (and I say that specifically about butches, because I've never seen femmes do it in the same sexist way I've seen butches do it)...but I especially don't like it when butches do this around femmes. This isn't something new...I've started threads on the topic.

Nat described an event in a previous post. I was the other member who was at that gathering. The behavior was horrible. Now, I've been around butches who act like that when it's just the butches, and it skeeves me out, but when there's a femme friend there it's 100 times skeevier. And while I don't feel a need to 'protect', I do feel more compelled to say something about it. These particular butches' behavior was absolutely ghastly. In fact, that gathering was one of the last times I saw any of those people. It's definitely the last time I saw them as a group. I did say something to the one I knew the best, and she said, "What? We're all girls here." Which is the answer I hate the most...but I have a really hard time with female bodied people (especially...I have a hard time with male bodied people too) acting like complete misogynist assholes under the "What? We are all girls" excuse.

I've been in this position with another butch in which she objectified femmes in the most disgusting way possible...including Mahhh Woman and Lipsy...well and almlst every femme at a couple different gatherings. I'm sorry, but when you stand behind Mahhh Woman and make comments about her bootay,and you talk about her (and other femmes whom I consider friends) like pieces of meat...I'm gonna have a problem with that.

Would I have a problem if I saw femmes do this? I honestly don't know, because I've never heard a group of femmes make the same disgusting comments. And I'm not talking about cussing or being ironically frat boy esque...I'm talking about being misogynistically GROSS.

Also...this whole 'butches and femmes are the same' line of thinking makes me call bullshit. Because if that were the case, wouldn't that just make everyone here a tweener or andro or whatever the correct word of the week is for 'run of the mill average'? Why would we have a 'dance' or 'energy' or 59 bajillion threads on gender breakdowns?

And I'm not talking about rescuing anyone or protecting anyone...I'm talking about misogynistic, piggish, inappropriate talk that always (in my experience) directed at femmes in my community. And I've seen where IF a femme DOES say something they're mocked as 'cute' or 'eyerolled' or literally laughed at.


Hope I'm Clear,
Dylan

And one more thing. I have and will continue to say something in these circumstances or in circumstances where men are involved because I know I will be taken more seriously

FUCKING THANK YOU.....

Maybe just maybe people will read this and knock their bullshit off and stop with their bullshit.

Cause frankly after my last interaction just 5 minutes ago with this kind of fucking experience I am done...

Learn to respect boundaries, it's not that difficult:readfineprint:

[rlin]

whoever reads this thread pay attention to what dylan said up there...
all you folks that bitched and moaned about the opening thread i dare you to find a way to snark his words...
he very eloquently said the blatant truth...
i am sure that several of you may have to posture up and yell about how by god you arent that way... but...
you can not deny the fact that it is true!

[Apocalipstic]

Not touching the issue that started this thread...

However, on the subject of Femmes being Ladies and needing to be treated differently? Please do not treat me with kid gloves. Yes there are times for lovely manners and there are times to just be. (ie Funeral V. Hockey Game)

"Just being" for me, does include cursing. A lot of it. :)

Yes, we can take care of ourselves and if we have a problem with someone's language we can tell them off all by ourselves. :) In fact, some of us quite enjoy it. (from me, it will likely be sexist/racist/classist comments, not cursing)

Umm, and there might be times when I might have been/or be piggish discussing other Femmes and/or Butches. Yes, I love a good mind, but....well, you know.

I keep hoping I will grow up and act like a nice Femme Lady is "supposed" to act 24/7, but it seems doubtful at this point. Yeay!

[Lynn]

whoever reads this thread pay attention to what dylan said up there...
all you folks that bitched and moaned about the opening thread i dare you to find a way to snark his words...
he very eloquently said the blatant truth...
i am sure that several of you may have to posture up and yell about how by god you arent that way... but...
you can not deny the fact that it is true!

Since my post was in close proximity to Dylan's, I wanted to ask what blatant truth you're referring to, as Dylan made several good points.

For me, "the dance" is about relationship and interaction, sexual and otherwise. We are definitely not the same. But, that doesn't give either of us license to be jerks. What is a mutual expectation is that we treat each other (and others) with respect and kindness. If anyone feels compelled to rally to my defense, or to join in as a voice of support, that's OK with me. But, I would ask that it not be done in a way that's patronizing or condescending. Does that make sense? It's the patronizing stuff that makes it icky, not the show of support.

[Martina]

I've never heard a group of femmes make the same disgusting comments. And I'm not talking about cussing or being ironically frat boy esque...I'm talking about being misogynistically GROSS.


i have seen femmes giggle at this and make light of it if someone objects. i think a few have even enjoyed it.

[Gayla]

whoever reads this thread pay attention to what dylan said up there...
all you folks that bitched and moaned about the opening thread i dare you to find a way to snark his words...
he very eloquently said the blatant truth...
i am sure that several of you may have to posture up and yell about how by god you arent that way... but...
you can not deny the fact that it is true!

Ok, I gotta ask for some clarification on this because I keep looking at it and can't quite figure it out. Are you talking about the whole thread or the posturing part or are you just cheerleading Dylan's post. I'm kind of reading it as we all need to just quit bitching and moaning and get over it.

Granted, I probably would have done it a different way, but I think the overall result of the thread has been a pretty positive conversation about things I haven't often seen discussed. Your comments seem kind of dismissive to me so please help me understand what you're trying to say.

[Nat]

i have seen femmes giggle at this and make light of it if someone objects. i think a few have even enjoyed it.

I promise that was not my response.

[Martina]

I promise that was not my response.

i think i missed something. Anyway, i am SURE you would never respond that way. :)

[Dylan]

i have seen femmes giggle at this and make light of it if someone objects. i think a few have even enjoyed it.

I'm definitely *not* arguing with you about your experience...definitely not

In MY experience, I have NEVER seen a femme giggle about it or enjoy it. I have seen a femme try to lighten the mood if ThePig is called out, but I have never seen a femme enjoy it (unless it was her partner saying it to her, but that's a different horse, and none of my business). I've seen femmes sit uncomfortably while some piggish butch made comments about their asses/bippies/outfits/whatnot...but not enjoy.

Again, I'm so not arguing with your experience...just sharing the differences in experiences.


Dylan

[MsMerrick]

A funny story, probably nothing to do with the OP, more with Dylan & Nat's sideways derail kinda..
Several years back, I went to a Halloween party at a friends house, and I wore a corset and..some other things ( I think the over all costume was general gypsy.. ) , nice very stick em up and out there corset...! A couple people came in, that never took off their masks.. While I knew a lot of people there, there was some I didn't, and.. many BF, but some not.. Anyway, these 2 people, were.. really .. overly familiar... and made very lewd comments..so I just moved away.. But it did irritate me.. and I really hated it.
Other thing s were going on, I forgot about it..
Come to find out later, I did actually know one of them.. And I was even angrier.. and surprised, at their behavior, which I guess, was emboldened by the whole no one knows who we are.. blech..
Anyway, no, I don't enjoy it.. Ok, consenting adults playing consensual games, thats a different story..
Oh I forgot.. Sort of the point was.. I presumed, as in assumed, the two people, were "regular as in non BF ple who don't identify as such " Lesbians. The shocking part to me, was that one actually was a Butch.

[Ebon]

A funny story, probably nothing to do with the OP, more with Dylan & Nat's sideways derail kinda..
Several years back, I went to a Halloween party at a friends house, and I wore a corset and..some other things ( I think the over all costume was general gypsy.. ) , nice very stick em up and out there corset...! A couple people came in, that never took off their masks.. While I knew a lot of people there, there was some I didn't, and.. many BF, but some not.. Anyway, these 2 people, were.. really .. overly familiar... and made very lewd comments..so I just moved away.. But it did irritate me.. and I really hated it.
Other thing s were going on, I forgot about it..
Come to find out later, I did actually know one of them.. And I was even angrier.. and surprised, at their behavior, which I guess, was emboldened by the whole no one knows who we are.. blech..
Anyway, no, I don't enjoy it.. Ok, consenting adults playing consensual games, thats a different story..
Oh I forgot.. Sort of the point was.. I presumed, as in assumed, the two people, were "regular as in non BF ple who don't identify as such " Lesbians. The shocking part to me, was that one actually was a Butch.

That is totally not cool.

[rlin]

a little of the clarification you asked for...


earlier when i pointed to dylans post i was in some weird spot in my head that was just saying 'hells yeah' really loudly...

he said a lot of what was in my head very thoroughly and well... i obviously couldnt do it...

i have read several very insightful posts here... many from folks of the femme persuasion that i appreciated immensely...

i had read too many posts from folks that refused to see or hear the parts where i said that i in no way thought a femme was weak or helpless or in need of rescue...

i was amazed at how many had to speak up and say that this was an absurd topic because by god they werent that way so it must not exist...

i saw dylans post as very easy to understand and so well said that it was unarguable...
and... yeah... i know not all of it applies to not everyone... but... enough of it was what i wanted to point out that i got all giddy and shit and had to give it a big hell yeah!

thanks yall for the thought you have provoked...
a lot of us do not respect femmes the way we should...
a lot of us are guilty of pushing ourselves on or above a femme without thought...
if this helps anything... i welcome the idiocy i was exposed to for broaching the subject...

thanks yall...

p.s.
i feel i should apologize for being in my own head for most of my posts in this thread... i sometimes have a hard time getting my thoughts to words... i know that i cant expect everyone to understand what the hell i am trying to get at...hell maybe i shouldnt expect anyone to get it...
no one else knows i am in actuality a stand up kinda person that just likes to look at stuff from a lot of different directions... even a lot of them that arent and never would be mine own... everyones opinions count to someone...
sometimes i like to try to find out why...

[Martina]

Well maybe we are imagining different levels of piggish behavior.

I'm definitely *not* arguing with you about your experience...definitely not

In MY experience, I have NEVER seen a femme giggle about it or enjoy it. I have seen a femme try to lighten the mood if ThePig is called out, but I have never seen a femme enjoy it (unless it was her partner saying it to her, but that's a different horse, and none of my business). I've seen femmes sit uncomfortably while some piggish butch made comments about their asses/bippies/outfits/whatnot...but not enjoy.

Again, I'm so not arguing with your experience...just sharing the differences in experiences.


Dylan