the Femme Rules the Butch Rules

[Nerds]

ok so I have come across a set of rules of the Femmes out there but no rules for the Butches. So me and a friend were going to make a list of rules for the Butches - but we need some suggestions. To give you an idea - here is the list of Femme Rules:

The Femme Rules


1. The Femme always makes THE RULES.

2. THE RULES are subject to change without notice.

3. No butch can possibly know all THE RULES.

4. If the Femme suspects the Butch knows all THE RULES, she must immediately change some of THE RULES.

5. The Femme is never wrong.

6. If it appears the Femme is wrong, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding caused by something the Butch did or said.

7. If Rule 6 applies, the Butch must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.

8. The Femme can change her mind at any time without notice.

9. The Butch must never change her mind without the express written consent of The Femme.

10. The Femme has every right to be angry or upset at any time.

11. The Butch must remain calm at all times, unless the Femme wants her to be angry or upset.

12. The Femme must not, under any circumstances, let the Butch know whether she wants her to be angry or upset.

13. The Butch is expected to read the mind of the Femme at all times and act or respond accordingly.

14. What is important is what the Femme meant, not what she said.

15. If the Butch doesn't abide by THE RULES, it is because she can't take the heat, lacks backbone, and is a wimp.

16. If the Femme has PMS, all THE RULES are null and void and the Butch must cater to her every whim.

17. Any attempt to document THE RULES could result in bodily harm.

18. If the Butch, at any time, believes she is right, she must refer to Rule 5.

19. The Butch must kill all bugs at any given time.

20. The Butch must "always be prepared"...





we have 4 rules so far:

1. Make the Femme believe it is her idea

2. just grin and nod

3 if the Femme changes the rules - refer to rule number 2

4 no Butch likes to know all the rules we like the element of surprise



I am sure you all have some good suggestions... :)

[Soon]

Ruh Roh.

:seeingstars:

[Corkey]

Oh god here we go again.....

1. this is not funny
2. it has been posted before
3. it is just as offensive now as it was then
4. look out for the flame, it's gonna get hot in here.

[Ryobi]

Grab the "Gold Bond"! Here comes a hide chapping!! :seeingstars:

[betenoire]

Butch/Femme does not equal a parroting of heterosexuals. Butches are not our Men (except, you know, for the ones who are but that is besides the point)

This is sexist. It's also stupid. That's the only rule you need to know.

[Jesse]

I feel better about us as a community finding ways to encourage the togetherness and ways that we work well together rather than any of this blank-verses-blank stuff!

[The_Lady_Snow]

ok so I have come across a set of rules of the Femmes out there but no rules for the Butches. So me and a friend were going to make a list of rules for the Butches - but we need some suggestions. To give you an idea - here is the list of Femme Rules:


OY VEY Nerds.......

The Femme Rules


1. The Femme always makes THE RULES.

2. THE RULES are subject to change without notice.

3. No butch can possibly know all THE RULES.

4. If the Femme suspects the Butch knows all THE RULES, she must immediately change some of THE RULES.

5. The Femme is never wrong.

6. If it appears the Femme is wrong, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding caused by something the Butch did or said.

7. If Rule 6 applies, the Butch must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.

8. The Femme can change her mind at any time without notice.


So far you have insulted every femme in here by insinuating we are fluffless mindless controlling cunts.

9. The Butch must never change her mind without the express written consent of The Femme.

10. The Femme has every right to be angry or upset at any time.

11. The Butch must remain calm at all times, unless the Femme wants her to be angry or upset.

12. The Femme must not, under any circumstances, let the Butch know whether she wants her to be angry or upset.

13. The Butch is expected to read the mind of the Femme at all times and act or respond accordingly.

14. What is important is what the Femme meant, not what she said.

15. If the Butch doesn't abide by THE RULES, it is because she can't take the heat, lacks backbone, and is a wimp.

16. If the Femme has PMS, all THE RULES are null and void and the Butch must cater to her every whim.


So from this I have learned you see us femme's as angry, close to violent abusive beings.

AND we are the only one's who suffer from the PMS cause well butches just miraculously do not

17. Any attempt to document THE RULES could result in bodily harm.

18. If the Butch, at any time, believes she is right, she must refer to Rule 5.

19. The Butch must kill all bugs at any given time.

20. The Butch must "always be prepared"...

Here you assumed that all femme's are scared of bugs, always ready for sex and that we are violent.





we have 4 rules so far:

1. Make the Femme believe it is her idea

2. just grin and nod

3 if the Femme changes the rules - refer to rule number 2

4 no Butch likes to know all the rules we like the element of surprise

Here we learn that you view butches as head noddin' zombies


I am sure you all have some good suggestions... :)

So there is a thread on this site about Misogyny and Sexism in this community, my suggestion before someone bites your head off if you decide to post another ludicris thing like this happens is read it.



Here is the link for the thread I hope it helps:





http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1463&highlight=Sexism+Mysogyny

[Medusa]

Hey Nerds,

I know you meant this to be funny and posted it in the humor section. I think you will find many people aren't amused by humor like this that often takes "man" out of the joke and inserts "Butch" or "Transguy" because it often creates this ugly thing where the Butch/Femme dynamic is just a dressing sheet that is thrown over a hetero relationship.

It can feel negating to the actual lived experiences of many of us here and can also feel as if het relationships are being heralded as the "real" relationships while Queer relationships are just cheap knock-offs.

I think you are new to the community so I hope this explanation helps you understand why people are reacting with irritation. Also keep in mind, many "jokes" like this have been posted over the last 12 years.

Thanks!

[EnderD_503]

Hey Nerds,

I know you meant this to be funny and posted it in the humor section. I think you will find many people aren't amused by humor like this that often takes "man" out of the joke and inserts "Butch" or "Transguy" because it often creates this ugly thing where the Butch/Femme dynamic is just a dressing sheet that is thrown over a hetero relationship.

It can feel negating to the actual lived experiences of many of us here and can also feel as if het relationships are being heralded as the "real" relationships while Queer relationships are just cheap knock-offs.

I think you are new to the community so I hope this explanation helps you understand why people are reacting with irritation. Also keep in mind, many "jokes" like this have been posted over the last 12 years.

Thanks!

Hey Medusa, hope you don't mind me adding/giving my input on this, but how about the notion that all heterosexuals (both men and women)/heterosexual relationships are the same? If Nerd's post implies that "man" is replaced by "butch" or "woman" by "femme," then isn't also implying that all heterosexual men and women are carbon copies of one another? I think we should see all people, whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, African, European, Asian, butch, femme, trans, none of the above, purple pokadotted elephant etc. as individuals. No one group is a carbon copy of any other particular member of that group. We should know/realise this being a part of a community that claims to be as diverse as ours.

If we look at the larger picture, we're just creating more fences between people, in general. To what end?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Hey Medusa, hope you don't mind me adding/giving my input on this, but how about the notion that all heterosexuals (both men and women)/heterosexual relationships are the same? If Nerd's post implies that "man" is replaced by "butch" or "woman" by "femme," then isn't also implying that all heterosexual men and women are carbon copies of one another? I think we should see all people, whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, African, European, Asian, butch, femme, trans, none of the above, purple pokadotted elephant etc. as individuals. No one group is a carbon copy of any other particular member of that group. We should know/realise this being a part of a community that claims to be as diverse as ours.

If we look at the larger picture, we're just creating more fences between people, in general. To what end?


Um Nerd's post is am implication that Butch and Femme are a heteronormative carbon copy and we should be ok with someone making ha ha jokes about sexism towards femme's?

Cause that is what those jokes are sayin' and doing

Now I don't know about you but I do not like that kind of message shoved down my throat via comedy.

[Medusa]

Hey Medusa, hope you don't mind me adding/giving my input on this, but how about the notion that all heterosexuals (both men and women)/heterosexual relationships are the same? If Nerd's post implies that "man" is replaced by "butch" or "woman" by "femme," then isn't also implying that all heterosexual men and women are carbon copies of one another? I think we should see all people, whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, African, European, Asian, butch, femme, trans, none of the above, purple pokadotted elephant etc. as individuals. No one group is a carbon copy of any other particular member of that group. We should know/realise this being a part of a community that claims to be as diverse as ours.

If we look at the larger picture, we're just creating more fences between people, in general. To what end?


Actually, for me, I think that het relationships are "normalized" through the media and most of our political, religious, and social systems. I think that we can internally "know" that the paper dolls that the media and systems of power provide to us aren't fair and real but I do personally recognize the validity of the existence of "het norm".

It is important to me in this community that we do rail against "othering". My response above was an attempt to do that :)

[EnderD_503]

Um Nerd's post is am implication that Butch and Femme are a heteronormative carbon copy and we should be ok with someone making ha ha jokes about sexism towards femme's?

Cause that is what those jokes are sayin' and doing

Now I don't know about you but I do not like that kind of message shoved down my throat via comedy.

That's not at all what I was saying in my post... I was actually attempting to expand on the notion of heteronormativity itself. Nevermind.

[EnderD_503]

Actually, for me, I think that het relationships are "normalized" through the media and most of our political, religious, and social systems. I think that we can internally "know" that the paper dolls that the media and systems of power provide to us aren't fair and real but I do personally recognize the validity of the existence of "het norm".

It is important to me in this community that we do rail against "othering". My response above was an attempt to do that :)

I recognise that the media and religion, in particular, attempt to do this, however, what I'm saying is that I don't think that it is indicative of the situation as it is. At least not in my experience. Stuffing heterosexuals into one box simply because of what the media/religion tries to do just doesn't sit well with me. While there once was a heterosexual norm, I'm not convinced that this is the case today.

Also, I thought I'd add that referring to heterosexuals as a collective in a way, imo, promotes boxing heterosexuals into one specific box. It doesn't recognise "them" as individuals. Again, just my take on it.

[Ebon]

ok so I have come across a set of rules of the Femmes out there but no rules for the Butches. So me and a friend were going to make a list of rules for the Butches - but we need some suggestions. To give you an idea - here is the list of Femme Rules:

The Femme Rules


1. The Femme always makes THE RULES.

2. THE RULES are subject to change without notice.

3. No butch can possibly know all THE RULES.

4. If the Femme suspects the Butch knows all THE RULES, she must immediately change some of THE RULES.

5. The Femme is never wrong.

6. If it appears the Femme is wrong, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding caused by something the Butch did or said.

7. If Rule 6 applies, the Butch must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.

8. The Femme can change her mind at any time without notice.

9. The Butch must never change her mind without the express written consent of The Femme.

10. The Femme has every right to be angry or upset at any time.

11. The Butch must remain calm at all times, unless the Femme wants her to be angry or upset.

12. The Femme must not, under any circumstances, let the Butch know whether she wants her to be angry or upset.

13. The Butch is expected to read the mind of the Femme at all times and act or respond accordingly.

14. What is important is what the Femme meant, not what she said.

15. If the Butch doesn't abide by THE RULES, it is because she can't take the heat, lacks backbone, and is a wimp.

16. If the Femme has PMS, all THE RULES are null and void and the Butch must cater to her every whim.

17. Any attempt to document THE RULES could result in bodily harm.

18. If the Butch, at any time, believes she is right, she must refer to Rule 5.

19. The Butch must kill all bugs at any given time.

20. The Butch must "always be prepared"...





we have 4 rules so far:

1. Make the Femme believe it is her idea

2. just grin and nod

3 if the Femme changes the rules - refer to rule number 2

4 no Butch likes to know all the rules we like the element of surprise



I am sure you all have some good suggestions... :)

I've said some shit in my day but you are a brave soul.

[Gemme]

I guess this means that masculine and male identified butches and Transguys are exempt, huh?
Just when I had my butch just where I wanted him, a loop hole....:blink:

[BullDog]

I recognise that the media and religion, in particular, attempt to do this, however, what I'm saying is that I don't think that it is indicative of the situation as it is. At least not in my experience. Stuffing heterosexuals into one box simply because of what the media/religion tries to do just doesn't sit well with me. While there once was a heterosexual norm, I'm not convinced that this is the case today.

Also, I thought I'd add that referring to heterosexuals as a collective in a way, imo, promotes boxing heterosexuals into one specific box. It doesn't recognise "them" as individuals. Again, just my take on it.

Heteronormative standards exist on institutional and structural levels and are the basis used to value heterosexual relationships (the only type of relationships society really recognizes in any sort of "official" way). It also helps to reinforce sexism in many ways. Recognizing that we don't follow heteronormative standards in our community doesn't mean we think all heterosexuals are the same or that all heterosexuals follow heteronormativity to a tee or that they are all bad people.

Nerds, welcome to the site.

I don't agree with the humor either but the person registered in August 2010. Can we cut her some slack and still discuss the topic at the same time?

[Corkey]

So far I think we've all been rather subdued and accommodating in educating a new member... so what exactly is the topic now?

[BullDog]

I don't understand your question Corkey.

[betenoire]

Also, I thought I'd add that referring to heterosexuals as a collective in a way, imo, promotes boxing heterosexuals into one specific box. It doesn't recognise "them" as individuals. Again, just my take on it.

Ender, I don't think for one moment that any of the people who objected to the OP didn't also recognize that it is bullshit and sexist when in the jokes original incarnation (that original incarnation being about straight women.)

I am not so stupid that I don't understand that both of the below jokes are equally appalling:

Why can't Femmes drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Why can't Women drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Both of those jokes are equally irritating to me, and I would personally drop down dead from shock if any of the other posters on this thread didn't ALSO find both jokes -equally- irritating.

[Corkey]

I don't understand your question Corkey.


Well first the topic was a joke that isn't and now you say there is a topic, I'd like to know just what the topic is please since you seem to know there is a topic. Now do you understand? ugh.

[BullDog]

No, I still don't understand, but I don't think you are asking me a question anyway so I really don't think it matters.

[Corkey]

OFFS, no Bully I wasn't asking you anything.... what is the topic please, cause I'd really like to participate if there is actually a point to this thread.

[BullDog]

Ender, I don't think for one moment that any of the people who objected to the OP didn't also recognize that it is bullshit and sexist when in the jokes original incarnation (that original incarnation being about straight women.)

I am not so stupid that I don't understand that both of the below jokes are equally appalling:

Why can't Femmes drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Why can't Women drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Both of those jokes are equally irritating to me, and I would personally drop down dead from shock if any of the other posters on this thread didn't ALSO find both jokes -equally- irritating.

OK Corkey, perhaps I am a little slow on the uptake. I think there is good discussion around why these types of jokes aren't funny and people are already discussing that without getting into anything with the OP. As Betenoire's post above. I think there is plenty to discuss.

[Corkey]

It is offensive because it is sexist, it is misogynistic, it is dull and sophomoric. The OP is now informed by a whole lot of folks with out one flame as far as I can see. So what is there left to discuss, how we clip our toes? My attempt at humor, directed to no one in particular.

[betenoire]

I am probably a bit of a hypocrit, since I make jokes about me and Nick parroting "traditional" male/female roles.

Mind you, when I do it it drips with irony. When I joke about all the stuff that I have to ask Nick's permission to do - it's because he, zeus, the cats, and now all of you know that I never ask permission to do ANYTHING and even if I did it would be cursory because he'd never be able to stop me from doing anything I felt like doing - and he wouldn't try. (Possibly he wouldn't try because he knows it would be a waste of his time, however.)

(Another favourite joke of mine is the one about how now I'm gonna go do the dishes and make the apartment look nice for "my man". Please, it's fairly common knowledge that there are at least 4 loads of laundry overflowing the hamper and a zillion dvds strewn all over the couch at any given moment. Poor Nick.)

[AtLast]

Ender, I don't think for one moment that any of the people who objected to the OP didn't also recognize that it is bullshit and sexist when in the jokes original incarnation (that original incarnation being about straight women.)

I am not so stupid that I don't understand that both of the below jokes are equally appalling:

Why can't Femmes drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Why can't Women drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Both of those jokes are equally irritating to me, and I would personally drop down dead from shock if any of the other posters on this thread didn't ALSO find both jokes -equally- irritating.

Rather obvious that both are obnoxious, infantile and sexist. What the hell is wrong with people?

[AtLast]

I feel better about us as a community finding ways to encourage the togetherness and ways that we work well together rather than any of this blank-verses-blank stuff!

I agree and think the OP should do what I recerntly did when making the same "vs" mistake..... report themselves and ask that the the thread be closed. Did this even though other thread titles have "vs" in them because I felt the members offended (as is true here) deserve my listening to them due to a communiy consenses. And it is one thing if one or two people take offense without solid grounds and quite another when many do and have the same basis, with sound reasoning and the spirit of the site's TOS (sexism and a transphobic slant, really that gemme caught) for complaint.

If a thread is going to bring on negative stances and just offends a lot of members, it isn't additive to the site. Sometimes an idea just flops and has nothing do with any ill intent of the OP at all..

[WolfyOne]

Personally, I think if the thread was retitled, it could be a learning lesson for anyone new to this site or to the communities we all live in. I see plenty of posts here that are well written and worthy of reading whether you're new or not. I for one am always impressed with what I read by others and what I care to take with me when I leave a thread.

[SuperFemme]

I think the word of the week is VERSUS.

I'm glad tomorrow is Sunday.

Nerd? I love your name and welcome.

[BullDog]

I think the word of the week is VERSUS.

I'm glad tomorrow is Sunday.

Nerd? I love your name and welcome.

LOL, yeah must be a world record for thread titles. I think in most instances it has meant to compare rather than to compete (as in us vs. them) and I have been puzzled by some of the responses. However comparisons can also be problematic at times.

Note to self: don't ever put vs in a thread title

[SuperFemme]

My very first post on a b/f site ages ago was me jumping into a poly thread saying that I "wasn't morally capable" of doing poly.

It has taken 8 years for my ass to grow back.

Bah.

You live, you learn. I just want to make sure that Nerd knows we really ARE a loving bunch (with an extremely high nerd population).

So Nerd, don't mind us. Your ass will grow back, and this place really is super special in tons of ways. :rrose:

[waxnrope]

Maybe, in addition to "educating" a new person to the site, we have learned how to approach ... not allowing the error to pass, but not being so volatile as to defeat our purpose by having the recipient of our collected angst just shut down.*shrugs* I don't know. Maybe the holiday weekend tempered...

I'll keep checking, tho, to see if I should send salve ....

[Ryobi]

Personally, I think if the thread was retitled, it could be a learning lesson for anyone new to this site or to the communities we all live in. I see plenty of posts here that are well written and worthy of reading whether you're new or not. I for one am always impressed with what I read by others and what I care to take with me when I leave a thread.

You being one of the "worthy of reading", retitling is a good idea. I agree we can all learn from threads like this. But, what would it be called? There's so many like it. I guess some one could start a thread "how not to get your ass ripped off". lol.

I agree also with being nice to new comers. When I read the first post, I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt, and I still do. I just can't help feeling though, the benefit of the doubt is a lot to still be asking for in this matter.
When I re-read the entire thread, the Monty Python skit "how not to be seen" ran through my head. lol. Poor Nerds merely stood up a bit from the shrubbery and it Blew up. lol

Nerds, welcome to the planet. We're not try to teach you "how not to be seen". I think it's more like hoping folks can see some things differently.

[waxnrope]

I like that, Ryobi. Thanks.
Maybe when newbies register, there should be a sign that tells them, "Newbies read this..... with an arrow pointing to a thread called by one of the names above. Or, Ass slings here ...?

[Toughy]

I actually find the thing sexist period. It is offensive to any and all female-bodied/woman folks. It is also offensive to men of all stripes.

It plays on stereotypical gender roles and frames any and all women as...........well Snow put it best.....something about controlling cunts. It makes men stupid and passive nitwits also.

I don't believe Nerd has come close to getting flamed. Nerd has not even received an ass bite, much less a chomping. We are becoming nice...........mmmmmmmmmmm

[waxnrope]

Is there a dentist in the house? :fastdraq:

[SuperFemme]

This is the second thread Ive removed the word VERSUS from tonight.
I'm on a roll. :police:

go jack
go jack

it's your vs. day
it's your vs. day

i'll be here every saturday in months that have 12 days

[Ryobi]

Can we just call it, "The Femme rules the Butch" and see how that thread goes?

:vigil: :fastdraq:

[Julie]

I actually find the thing sexist period. It is offensive to any and all female-bodied/woman folks. It is also offensive to men of all stripes.

It plays on stereotypical gender roles and frames any and all women as...........well Snow put it best.....something about controlling cunts. It makes men stupid and passive nitwits also.

I don't believe Nerd has come close to getting flamed. Nerd has not even received an ass bite, much less a chomping. We are becoming nice...........mmmmmmmmmmm

There is no question in my mind the OP in it's entirety was offensive and sexist, among other descriptives. However...

I am going to make the assumption that Nerd is either young or perhaps based on their geographic location (Netherlands) might not have been afforded the intellectual environment so many of us had in this community, by our community. Again, I might be insulting Nerd this very moment with my very assumptions.

Personally, after reading each and every post -- I am feeling more positive, in that this has turned into an open ground for communication. If we give ass whoopin's and beat down a person, who perhaps just doesn't get it, because they don't have the same experiences as us. We might turn somebody away, who might make a difference in our community one day. I have been out for 30 years in this community, but there was a time, when I was just plain young and stupid and thankfully... I had older femmes and butches to sit down with me and have open conversations, without feeling shamed.

Just remember this... If it were not for the strength of the butches and femmes before us, where might we be? We have a responsibility to our younger generations and those coming out, to guide and educate, so they in turn can help another. Otherwise, where will we be in a hundred years?

Julie

[Corkey]

So glad that Versus is gone. Perhaps newbies should have a page they go to first explaining that one persons humor isn't necessarily an entire sites? Nah, perhaps reading the tos and understanding it might help. So glad no feathers were scorched in the education of Nerds. We are becoming.....nicer...cringes.

[nicetgurl_30]

What I love the most about this site, is that ppl are allowed and accepted for who they are here. It would be ashamed if all those restrictions we placed on someone simply because they posted a stereotype joke in the humor section.

If we don't agree w someones statement or choice is it"our" duty to teach them that their wrong till they think or behave like the "majority"

Sorry for spelling errors.

[Corkey]

Know your audience, all comics know this one rule.

[ravfem]

*waving a white flag* i come in peace!

Y'all are gonna jump on me, i know that and i'm trying to prepare myself for it. i don't like getting jumped on, and so i usually just don't post when i disagree with the majority, so i'm not sure why i've picked tonight to post.

Maybe it's lack of chocolate.... :seeingstars:

i have seen other posters attacked more vehemently than this one, but to say that some are being nice by calling the original post stupid?? Really? Just because some of the more progressive, forward-thinking, PC among us think the post was stupid doesn't mean it was, period. Many people will read and laugh and nod their head, knowing it is a ha-ha, not a bible. Then they'll read on and the smile will disappear quickly. Hopefully if they are new to the site they wont assume the entire site and the population who post here are all like some of the subsequent posts.

i was not offended by the post, but then again i don't make a habit of taking things personally, in general. i know the post wasn't about me. i recognize it was a ha-ha kinda thing. (old, but still...)

Yeah, i am like some of the things listed. But still, the post was not about me, and it was not about you, personally, either.

Why do we prefer calling posts stupid (or worse) rather than just ignore them or at least try to be courteous when we let the person posting know we don't agree?

It feels mean to me. Rude. And i'm sure that someone will respond with "well i found the post rude". So.....because it was rude, you have to be rude too?

Some tell me that i am unrealistic and naive. Maybe i am. Or maybe i'm overly-sensitive. OK, maybe that's it...i'm overly sensitive to what i feel is rudeness the same way others are overly-sensitive to what they feel is stupid? (often, i work out my thoughts while in the middle of typing stuff...it's how i process) But i just don't get why it's so easy to be mean & rude. And i'm not saying that every response has been mean. So if you weren't mean, then don't take this personally :cheesy:

i really do come from a "why can't we all just get along" place. i know that it's not possible, i know that we're all individuals with our own thoughts and feelings. And i know we all have equal right to post how we feel.

But dang....how about a little kindness?

One last thing.....about what i said in the beginning about getting jumped on? i don't think, for the most part, most posters mean to jump on others....but it does happen.

*hands out flowers to everyone who would like one*

:hippie:

[Corkey]

Thanks for the flowers, but perpetuating a stereotype is not something I find funny in the least. I however have not called anyone stupid, and we all don't see humor the same, hence know your audience.
It isn't up to those offended to put up with the offense, it is incumbent on the offender to not offend. Could it be funny...no it is perpetual garbage and juvenile at best. But hey I'm just your stereotypical guy right.

[betenoire]

I am going to make the assumption that Nerd is either young or perhaps based on their geographic location (Netherlands) might not have been afforded the intellectual environment so many of us had in this community, by our community. Again, I might be insulting Nerd this very moment with my very assumptions.

Naw, it's got nothing to do with the Netherlands. I have a good (online) friend who lives there and we talk politics a great deal. The Netherlands (although I am sure he is biased) comes off as a mecca of forward-thinking people.

PS - Even the Canadian ones. :canadian:

Especially the Canadian ones, jesus!


i have seen other posters attacked more vehemently than this one, but to say that some are being nice by calling the original post stupid?? Really? Just because some of the more progressive, forward-thinking, PC among us think the post was stupid doesn't mean it was, period.

No, the post really was stupid.

You are not your posts. You are not the jokes you tell. Neither is the OP. I did not call the poster stupid.

[The_Lady_Snow]

*waving a white flag* i come in peace!

Y'all are gonna jump on me, i know that and i'm trying to prepare myself for it. i don't like getting jumped on, and so i usually just don't post when i disagree with the majority, so i'm not sure why i've picked tonight to post.

Maybe it's lack of chocolate.... :seeingstars:

i have seen other posters attacked more vehemently than this one, but to say that some are being nice by calling the original post stupid?? Really? Just because some of the more progressive, forward-thinking, PC among us think the post was stupid doesn't mean it was, period. Many people will read and laugh and nod their head, knowing it is a ha-ha, not a bible. Then they'll read on and the smile will disappear quickly. Hopefully if they are new to the site they wont assume the entire site and the population who post here are all like some of the subsequent posts.

i was not offended by the post, but then again i don't make a habit of taking things personally, in general. i know the post wasn't about me. i recognize it was a ha-ha kinda thing. (old, but still...)

Yeah, i am like some of the things listed. But still, the post was not about me, and it was not about you, personally, either.

Why do we prefer calling posts stupid (or worse) rather than just ignore them or at least try to be courteous when we let the person posting know we don't agree?

It feels mean to me. Rude. And i'm sure that someone will respond with "well i found the post rude". So.....because it was rude, you have to be rude too?

Some tell me that i am unrealistic and naive. Maybe i am. Or maybe i'm overly-sensitive. OK, maybe that's it...i'm overly sensitive to what i feel is rudeness the same way others are overly-sensitive to what they feel is stupid? (often, i work out my thoughts while in the middle of typing stuff...it's how i process) But i just don't get why it's so easy to be mean & rude. And i'm not saying that every response has been mean. So if you weren't mean, then don't take this personally :cheesy:

i really do come from a "why can't we all just get along" place. i know that it's not possible, i know that we're all individuals with our own thoughts and feelings. And i know we all have equal right to post how we feel.

But dang....how about a little kindness?

One last thing.....about what i said in the beginning about getting jumped on? i don't think, for the most part, most posters mean to jump on others....but it does happen.

*hands out flowers to everyone who would like one*

:hippie:



I don't feel I was unkind and I don't feel I have to dismiss a sexist post, ha-haing about jokes that make femme's look like passive aggressive cunts is not my cuppa.

I hope that Nerds takes the time to read the link I left them. It's just not cool to come up into a thread and post rules about how huffy, tempermental, manipulative, passive aggressive femme's are and how the poor butch just sits there and nods like a circus monkey.

As for the jumping theory, I don't see it, I see it as people being not ok with posts and threads like this, that are demeaning.

:blueheels:

[sweetfemme247]

well I find some of the rules kinda funny in a cute way, but I would never wish my partner to have rules or to think I am always right because i am wrong alot. hopefully we didnt scare nerds off by getting mad, I hope nerds will come and explain what he ment by it, before I judge or say anything. No one take what I said offensive I am stating my opinion.

[waxnrope]

Rav, thank you for having the courage to voice your thoughts here. After reading your post a couple of times, I had to admit there were areas within that I agree. I had to admit to myself a shocked snicker when I read the OP. Yet, I was appalled at the same time - for the post and for that snort. Sometimes it takes a while to rid all the vestiges of old thoughts and behaviors from oneself. Just when I believed it was gone, it popped up again. There is more work to be done. Sigh.

For me. I have to relate how upset that I get about racism. This, to me, is never funny. Not. At. All. If I believe in the interrelatedness of oppression and injustice, and I do, then my personal ethos tells me that I must be as disturbed, as outraged, by masculinist posturing as I am with a racist remark.

Now, I do not believe in either context one should ignore remarks such as that made by the OP. But I do believe that our approach, for learning sake, might be more conducive in such a manner that criticism would be heard. In this respect, I agree with you.

I am sn old dog, but still learn here. I have tough skin, but it can be penetrated. My imperfections remind me of my humanity. And I still have a lot of stuff to work on for myself. So, for me, then, what I've come to realize is to teach those who cross into those ugly spaces in a manner likely to be heard - just ad I have to be taught - and if they still don't get it, if they persist, then hell yes, bring on the posse and sharpen those teeth.

Thanking you again, Rav

[Chancie]

I do think that there are new members who haven't had a chance to think about the underlying assumptions that make these jokes funny, not to me, but to plenty of people.

I don't think it helps anyone learn or that it builds community to jump down that member's throat, but

Perhaps the OP is very young and hasn't had the opportunity to consider why it's dangerous to make broad sweeping statements about femmes and butches.

So this is her chance.

What makes these jokes funny?

At whose expense?

How does is make us feel good about our community?

[waxnrope]

PS. O do believe that responses to this OP have been remarkably restrained.

[Nat]

Reading the op makes me extremely aware of the luxurious comfort I enjoy by living so far removed from messages like this. This isn't a luxury, sadly, of everybody else in our community, and so these messages do sometimes land on our shores.

[SassyLeo]

There is no question in my mind the OP in it's entirety was offensive and sexist, among other descriptives. However...

I am going to make the assumption that Nerd is either young or perhaps based on their geographic location (Netherlands) might not have been afforded the intellectual environment so many of us had in this community, by our community. Again, I might be insulting Nerd this very moment with my very assumptions.

Personally, after reading each and every post -- I am feeling more positive, in that this has turned into an open ground for communication. If we give ass whoopin's and beat down a person, who perhaps just doesn't get it, because they don't have the same experiences as us. We might turn somebody away, who might make a difference in our community one day. I have been out for 30 years in this community, but there was a time, when I was just plain young and stupid and thankfully... I had older femmes and butches to sit down with me and have open conversations, without feeling shamed.

Just remember this... If it were not for the strength of the butches and femmes before us, where might we be? We have a responsibility to our younger generations and those coming out, to guide and educate, so they in turn can help another. Otherwise, where will we be in a hundred years?

Julie

THANK YOU JULIE :stillheart:

When I came into the BF community about 6/7 years ago... I had a bit to learn. Even though I grew up with Queer all around me, I did not have the "luxury" of the BF dynamic around me, so I joined several sites with the intent of learning and figuring my shit out.

I am so grateful to those who helped me, taught me, were generous enough to share knowledge and history with me. Yes, sometimes I got the snark, but I took it in stride, because it balanced out with the actual education I received.

I don't expect everyone to become an "educator" or have the patience to understand those who are still trying to figure it out... I am just glad some did (and hopefully still do) :)

Yes, I agree this kind of poll is sexist and heteronormative (2nding what many have said better before me) ...but sometimes I think we are really quick to lambaste someone...without first asking questions.

I should say this was much more calm than in the past - YAY progress!-

[ravfem]

i was telling a friend about this thread and that for whatever reason, the use of the word "stupid" to describe the original post rubbed me the wrong way.

She pointed out something i hadn't thought about...

Although i've never been called stupid (that i can remember), i've always thought the word was just rude. She reminded me that just because i feel that way about the word doesn't mean everyone does. Like a lot of words/phrases, it means different things to different people, and is used in different ways.

So yeah, i think that's why it bothered me enough to post.

A ha-ha: When my son was small, i taught him that the word stupid was a bad word and shouldn't be used. He was playing with a friend one day and ran into the house to tattle, "mama! he said the "s" word!!"

:hippie: