Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th

[MountainStar]

I thought I would post a little postie seeing if there was anyone from here that was going on the cruise other than me :) Drop me a line here or on my profile! It would be great to meet other Femmes and Butches on the cruise!

MountainStar

[Linus]

Tech Note: I moved this thread as it's not a BFP event or sanctioned by BFP. (this thread was originally under the BFP Events section)

[Strappie]

I presume you mean the cruise from the dash site?

I'm going to keep my mouth shut on this one for once...

So the answer is .....


HELL NO

[Linus]

Actually, this isn't the Dash site's cruise (their's is slated for Spring 2011).

[SuperFemme]

after being made aware of Olivia Cruise Lines policy regarding transgender vacationers, i have to say that i must boycott them on principal.

when you call a gay cruise line to make a reservation and are advised that your masculine appearing partner would probably be better served by booking a cruise on a mainstream cruise line? it is apparent that they are not inclusive.

so no.

[Blaze]

Not to be slandering or disrespectful to the other site. But like SuperFemme. I prefer not to support a company that discrimanates. About 8 years ago. A bunch of us from Hawaii wanted to jump ship and party. Well, as we talked on the phone, they were extremly accomidating. But when we showed up at the dock. The ticket woman said that this was a lesbian cruise. I said, well. I am a Butch woman and I paid for my ticket. She went on to explain that because there were more butch wemon and not enough woman-woman, it would be best if we booked for another cruise at a later time. One of our MTF said to this lady, well I was born a man, you got a problem with that??? The woman gasped and said" that she would not let her or that is him" <~in her own words. Board this ship because as she had stated earlier it was a Lesbian cruise.
That was it, I will never book with them again. And I mean NEVER!

[SuperFemme]

at the DOCK?
are you fucking kidding me?

oh. that. pisses. me. off.

[Diva]

Maggie said it best: Hell no.

Thank You. Drive safely.
:titantic:

[Strappie]

I have to admit, in the past I had always wanted to go on a cruise with a bunch of my friends. Now that I know the things I know, I can't support it any longer.

I completely understand that Olivia is a business and they are there to make money, hell we are all for that. But if it can't include the entire community with open arms then I will not support it.

[durrrrrrrr]

after readin what others had said about them...i would also be a hell no

[Strappie]

I for once did NOT open this can of worms....

~~ Just saying..

[tiggs]

I have kept quite about this topic on the other site but I have to agree with the others posting here, it would be a big heck no. My Daddy is very masculine presenting, not because Hy tries to be but because it is simply who Hy is and Hy is perfect just as Hy is. W/we most certianly would not put our hard earned dollars into a company that would suggest we look 'elsewhere' or that states trans or masculine presenting individuals are 'welcome' but really 'they are more of a womens only, lesbian space'.

So I must reiterate, Heck no.

[Diva]

I for once did NOT open this can of warms....

~~ Just saying..

My understanding is You cannot put the lid ON the can o' worms to begin with....<giggling......and hiding>

:eyebat:

[Strappie]

And why was it that so many people didn't discuss this? What the hell were you all afraid of.. getting booted? Ha.. That was the least of my worries. I for one am not the type to sit by and watch my friends be told they can or can not do something.

[Strappie]

My understanding is You cannot put the lid ON the can o' worms to begin with....<giggling......and hiding>

:eyebat:

Ok maybe you might be right a little.. *grin*

[tiggs]

Not to be slandering or disrespectful to the other site. But like SuperFemme. I prefer not to support a company that discrimanates. About 8 years ago. A bunch of us from Hawaii wanted to jump ship and party. Well, as we talked on the phone, they were extremly accomidating. But when we showed up at the dock. The ticket woman said that this was a lesbian cruise. I said, well. I am a Butch woman and I paid for my ticket. She went on to explain that because there were more butch wemon and not enough woman-woman, it would be best if we booked for another cruise at a later time. One of our MTF said to this lady, well I was born a man, you got a problem with that??? The woman gasped and said" that she would not let her or that is him" <~in her own words. Board this ship because as she had stated earlier it was a Lesbian cruise.
That was it, I will never book with them again. And I mean NEVER!


All I can say is that this is appalling :crap: they should be ashamed

[Diva]

Ok maybe you might be right a little.. *grin*




I lurb You, WormBoi............ :D

[Strappie]

-30 Points for all, y'all.

;)

OMG soooooooooooooo damn funny!!!!!!!!!

JUNE, I LOVE YOU!

[Strappie]

-30 Points for all, y'all.

;)

well shit, now I know why y'all didn't post anything.

[Blaze]

And why was it that so many people didn't discuss this? What the hell were you all afraid of.. getting booted? Ha.. That was the least of my worries. I for one am not the type to sit by and watch my friends be told they can or can not do something.

I never said anything because I never wanted to even get to the dock in the first place. I seen the posting on the other site and quickly ~cringed~. We never got our money back, and I will never look back at them either. If it was brought up, I would have said my piece here, well now it has, so now I speak only the truth... I don't visit, so I couldn't post my thoughts there.
But now I put my hat down on the Planet, so now I speak, I love, I hug, and I warn...

[lipstixgal]

After reading what I just read hell no I wouldn't go on a Olivia cruise beside they are too expensive and over rated!!

[tiggs]

And why was it that so many people didn't discuss this? What the hell were you all afraid of.. getting booted? Ha.. That was the least of my worries. I for one am not the type to sit by and watch my friends be told they can or can not do something.

Well quite frankly and as you are well aware my Daddy was/is ummmm active :giggle: in the thread on the other site. So really I felt no need to particepate when Hy was already doing such a wonderful job.

[Corkey]

Another OH Hell NO!
Even if we could go we wouldn't, now a cruse to Alaska....yep that we'd do, but not on that line.

[Billy]

Well then , I will take My boa and Tiara and party else where ! :cigar2: OHHHHH and Dolls shoes , and My fucking monkey !
:flyingmonkey:

[Strappie]

Well then , I will take My boa and Tiara and party else where ! :cigar2: OHHHHH and Dolls shoes , and My fucking monkey !
:flyingmonkey:

Billy ... God I love you!!! haha You are so pretty!

[MysticOceansFL]

Yeah I would still book with them just because I don't follow a group of people of what they did or don't do.

[Daywalker]

:pirate-steer:

I have a tough time deciding what the intentions are of Olivia when on
one hand they are raw and uncensored about how folks who are not strictly
identifying as Lesbian may be given the atmosphere of 'unwelcome' and on
another hand ~ they are willing to book an event and state that all will be
made to feel welcome. It's a monetary move from them, to me...and not one
from their hearts, and certainly it seems 'strained' for them to bend their rules
to do so. Our Community, to me...encompasses ALL of us who represent
the rainbow. So yes, it is their intentions that I find hard to narrow
in on...and to me, that is important.

:daywalker:

[Cyclopea]

Mountain Star I will not be able to go on the Lesbian cruise this October for various reasons unfortunately. I would love to go in future. As a lesbian I enjoy lesbian events and gatherings.
Since this thread is about a lesbian gathering perhaps it could be moved to the "Lesbian Zone" so wimmin can discuss the cruise without wading through pages of lesbophobia.

[Gayla]

:|

___________

[Soft*Silver]

I suggest we plan a cruise on our own...

I imagined the Olivia cruise to be somewhat akin to an episode of the L word...and since I cannot relate to the lesbians in that series, it did not interest me.

I think on our own cruise, we utube it and set the world straight what an INCLUSIVE cruise would be like.

and at the end,in one last utube, I say we all moon the dash site with dashes printed on our asses...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ohhhhhhhhh Olivia...

I would have to say not going anytime in this lifetime, as long as their trans policies stand.

Have fun though Mountain Star I hear cruises are fun!

It was nice to come in here and not have a finger wagged at chu and belittled over opinions.

[Daywalker]

I suggest we plan a cruise on our own...

I imagined the Olivia cruise to be somewhat akin to an episode of the L word...and since I cannot relate to the lesbians in that series, it did not interest me.

I think on our own cruise, we utube it and set the world straight what an INCLUSIVE cruise would be like.

and at the end,in one last utube, I say we all moon the dash site with dashes printed on our asses...

So is this a stab at the dash site,
or Olivia Cruises for their policies?

:daywalker:

[SuperFemme]

This is me giving a BIG eyeroll.

Olivia Cruises not making space for trans folks is more along the lines of transphobia, not "lesbophobia".

Again, how am I to couch my displeasure for that as a lesbian who is married to a trans person?

It breaks my heart that I am made to feel silenced and hush hush if I have anything that is other than positive to say about anything lesbian related. I'm a lesbian.

Trust me, I've got nothing against myself, and simply have stated the facts regarding the Olivia Cruises policy.

If the OP wanted only YES answers, I didn't read it that way.

[Words]

Mountain Star I will not be able to go on the Lesbian cruise this October for various reasons unfortunately. I would love to go in future. As a lesbian I enjoy lesbian events and gatherings.
Since this thread is about a lesbian gathering perhaps it could be moved to the "Lesbian Zone" so wimmin can discuss the cruise without wading through pages of lesbophobia.

So when 'wimmin' condemn the absence of inclusiveness, it's lesbophobia?

Really?

[Medusa]

Mountain Star I will not be able to go on the Lesbian cruise this October for various reasons unfortunately. I would love to go in future. As a lesbian I enjoy lesbian events and gatherings.
Since this thread is about a lesbian gathering perhaps it could be moved to the "Lesbian Zone" so wimmin can discuss the cruise without wading through pages of lesbophobia.


Cyclopea -

This will be your one and only warning. If you have only come back to participate in an incendiary manner, "rally the troops", or shit-stir, I highly suggest you rethink your interactions.

The Olivia Cruise topic is not "owned" by the Lesbian community, and we will not start segregating this site into areas where "wimmin's" topics are policed/fenced/separated into a space where only people of "approved" identities are allowed to discuss them.

Thanks,
Medusa
(Admin voice)

[Soft*Silver]

actually not a stab at all, DayWalker, but a celebration. Mooning is a cute way of having fun without being offensive...

I personally, however, do not like Olivia cruises nor the Dash site, but that was not my intent...


So is this a stab at the dash site,
or Olivia Cruises for their policies?

:daywalker:

[Cyclopea]

Cyclopea -

This will be your one and only warning. If you have only come back to participate in an incendiary manner, "rally the troops", or shit-stir, I highly suggest you rethink your interactions.

The Olivia Cruise topic is not "owned" by the Lesbian community, and we will not start segregating this site into areas where "wimmin's" topics are policed/fenced/separated into a space where only people of "approved" identities are allowed to discuss them.

Thanks,
Medusa
(Admin voice)

I certainly did not intend to participate in an incendiary manner "rally the troops" or shit-stir. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suggested that posting about a lesbian event in the lesbian zone might decrease the dozens of "oh hell no I'm not going- I'm not a lesbian" posts, which yes, feel phobic to me. I will PM you on the matter and hopefully make myself clearer. I'm not sure why my suggestion warrants such seemingly harsh moderation but I would like to understand so I can avoid being singled out in such a manner in future. Thank you for your patience.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I certainly did not intend to participate in an incendiary manner "rally the troops" or shit-stir. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suggested that posting about a lesbian event in the lesbian zone might decrease the dozens of "oh hell no I'm not going- I'm not a lesbian" posts, which yes, feel phobic to me. I will PM you on the matter and hopefully make myself clearer. I'm not sure why my suggestion warrants such seemingly harsh moderation but I would like to understand so I can avoid being singled out in such a manner in future. Thank you for your patience.


I would like to clarify that nowhere in my post did I come off with an intent to be anti lesbian.

Matter of fact lesbian was not even in my post.

So since you are making sweeping generalizations, I would like to say that I would not attend Olivia Cruises NOT because they cater to lesbians, but because I could not comfortably go with the person I am with, reason being..

They are not trans friendly.

[Cyclopea]

I would like to clarify that nowhere in my post did I come off with an intent to be anti lesbian.

Matter of fact lesbian was not even in my post.

So since you are making sweeping generalizations, I would like to say that I would not attend Olivia Cruises NOT because they cater to lesbians, but because I could not comfortably go with the person I am with, reason being..

They are not trans friendly.

I have PMed Medusa and feel after the strong warning given above I must be silent until it is all sorted out. I will get back to discuss with you Snow! I didn't want you to think I'm ignoring you...

[Strappie]

I certainly did not intend to participate in an incendiary manner "rally the troops" or shit-stir. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suggested that posting about a lesbian event in the lesbian zone might decrease the dozens of "oh hell no I'm not going- I'm not a lesbian" posts, which yes, feel phobic to me. I will PM you on the matter and hopefully make myself clearer. I'm not sure why my suggestion warrants such seemingly harsh moderation but I would like to understand so I can avoid being singled out in such a manner in future. Thank you for your patience.

Cy... I beg your pardon..

I am BUTCH and I am a LESBIAN and I am a WOMAN... I am not phobic to my fellow friends of any gender. We are all human...

[Admin]

I certainly did not intend to participate in an incendiary manner "rally the troops" or shit-stir. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suggested that posting about a lesbian event in the lesbian zone might decrease the dozens of "oh hell no I'm not going- I'm not a lesbian" posts, which yes, feel phobic to me. I will PM you on the matter and hopefully make myself clearer. I'm not sure why my suggestion warrants such seemingly harsh moderation but I would like to understand so I can avoid being singled out in such a manner in future. Thank you for your patience.

Cyclopea -

Actually no, what you suggested is that you would have to "wade through lesbophobia" unless this was in a Lesbian zone.

I will remind you again that this entire website is a "Lesbian Zone" so the insinuation that "wimmin's" topics are only "safe" in a separate zone (with an insinuated "Free from Lesbophobia") is absolutely incendiary.

And just so we are super clear: Being called out on problematic posting is not "being singled out", that is called "being treated like every other poster on this site".

Any further posts regarding this issue need to happen in a private message so this thread can continue.

Admin

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yeah I would still book with them just because I don't follow a group of people of what they did or don't do.



This is odd to say Mystic, I am certainly not going cause I am some kind of sheeple and I am doing what ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the other people are doing.

I have never been on a cruise, so if I did have the money for one I would definitely pick one that caters to my needs and the persons needs I am going with.

NOT because my besties aren't going.

Not cool

[Abigail Crabby]

Nope

Nada

Nein

Not in this lifetime -

Can't play with all my friends? Then you don't need my $$$

I only spend my $$ on truly inclusive venues.

[Gayla]

Does this have to turn into yet another us vs. them issue. I know we're into a whole new week now and all.

I think we can all agree that it's fact, not conjecture, that Olivia is not welcoming to many in our b-f community. If some of us choose not to give them our money, it doesn't make us lesbophobic.

[Billy]

Yeah I would still book with them just because I don't follow a group of people of what they did or don't do.


Knowing what you know , and a good chance of you not getting your money back , you would go ahead and book anyway :| Not sure this has anything to do with being a follower ....But you have money like that to burn , I say go for it ,but I wouldn't bother packing your bags :)

[theoddz]

As a transman, I personally am heartened by the support of my lesbian sisters here. To me, I don't see this as a lesbian-phobic issue as much as I think it is a stand against the lack of inclusiveness by some of the lesbian community.

An issue like this only serves to remind me that there are people, even my own, who will include me, even if it is only as an ally, as well as those, even my own, who will exclude me because of the fact that I had to make a journey to search for, discover and become who I am.

My personal appreciation, love, support and respect goes out to the inclusive lesbian trans ally community. To me, it is important that we realize that to be included, whether it's on a cruise or in just general society, with all its benefits and responsibilities, is what this fight is all about for all of us??

Respectfully,
~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Billy]

I have got to the point in My life that , if I or My butch brothers are not welcome somewhere , fuck em ! I will take My money and My brothers and go else where ! And if these idiots thought about what they where missing out on, they would see they could be making alot more money and meet some awesome folks that they choose to not associate with ...:sunglass:

[nycfem]

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -

Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM.

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2.



Thank you,



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jeri Umble
sr. director, customer care


olivia
434 brannan street
san francisco ca 94107

415.962.5700 tel
415.962-5713 fax

feel free
www.olivia.com

[Corkey]

Separatism is alive and well. They will get none of our money.

[Blaze]

Which goes to say that is why we were left with our suit cases left on the dock while we tried to understand why we were not allowed on board... ~Shakes Head~
And then tell us that we could reschedule another time??? We were on vacation, we have paid vacation hours, we can't just show up back to work and say, well can't go right now, so I'm going to work now and can you let me have next month off?!!!
We went camping instead! And this was 8 years ago, and they still haven't changed... Sad, so sad...

[betenoire]

Are there any inclusive LGBTIQ cruises? I know that Rosie's (ex? I don't keep up with celebrity gossip but I feel like I heard that somewhere) wife is the founder of one and I -think- I heard that one was inclusive - although it is for families.

If there was something like that I would be interested.

Oh, and add me to the "oh HELL naw" column on the subject of Olivia. I know where I'm not wanted.

[citybutch]

I would be interested to hear about the cruise line Sweet. They do a lot of activism... building schools, fixing computers, etc... to the depressed countries they visit... That's a part of their philosophy of cruising...

Anyone know?

Here is their link:

http://discoversweet.com/

Are there any inclusive LGBTIQ cruises? I know that Rosie's (ex? I don't keep up with celebrity gossip but I feel like I heard that somewhere) wife is the founder of one and I -think- I heard that one was inclusive - although it is for families.

If there was something like that I would be interested.

Oh, and add me to the "oh HELL naw" column on the subject of Olivia. I know where I'm not wanted.

[betenoire]

I would be interested to hear about the cruise line Sweet. They do a lot of activism... building schools, fixing computers, etc... to the depressed countries they visit... That's a part of their philosophy of cruising...

Anyone know?

Here is their link:

http://discoversweet.com/

Who can travel with Sweet?
Sweet loves our allies in all shapes and flavors. So while our vacations are designed for lesbians, anyone who looks at what we do and thinks it looks like fun is welcome to join us.

Their FAQ (http://discoversweet.com/about/faq/)

I would be interested to know if that's just talk or if they mean it, though. Like if someone who had actually been on one of their cruises could give us the skinny on things - that would be nice.

[MountainStar]

Wow. I never expected to see so many replies nor see what I saw.

I did book with Olivia and here is why...

My former spouse (who passed away) and I took a cruise together as our last trip. Cal was a TG butch and could easily pass for a guy if he wanted to.

We were treated with nothing but respect. We met some lovely people on the trip. Olivia went above and beyond to assist us since Cal was dying from cancer. Not one person was rude to us. Not one comment from either the Olivia staff or anyone on the cruise.

I knew at that time I wanted to take another trip with them and now I am.

I certainly didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. All I wondered was if anyone else here might be going. If someone is going feel free to PM me.

Have a good week,

MS

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wow. I never expected to see so many replies nor see what I saw.

I did book with Olivia and here is why...

My former spouse (who passed away) and I took a cruise together as our last trip. Cal was a TG butch and could easily pass for a guy if he wanted to.

We were treated with nothing but respect. We met some lovely people on the trip. Olivia went above and beyond to assist us since Cal was dying from cancer. Not one person was rude to us. Not one comment from either the Olivia staff or anyone on the cruise.

I knew at that time I wanted to take another trip with them and now I am.

I certainly didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. All I wondered was if anyone else here might be going. If someone is going feel free to PM me.

Have a good week,

MS


MS

I am glad you and yours had a great vacation, and that you have wonderful memories!

I hope you have a great time and you come back with more beautiful memories!

Happy Travels!

[SuperFemme]

atlantis, aquafest and RSVPvacations all have cruises that cater to the Queer/Lesbian community.

[nycfem]

We went on a Rosie Cruz to the Caribbean (r family vacations, now run by the ex, Kelly). Funny enough, we were by chance in a cabin beside another butch femme couple and their daughter. There were definitely singles and couples without kids too. We were told in casual conversation that R Family Vacations is more down-to-earth than Olivia (in talk of comparing between those who had been on both). I don't know specifically about their trans policy but the cruise had a very diverse feel to it. Some queer families brought grandparents, kinda touching to me! Also for that specific cruise, Rosie had impulsively invited the whole audience to go on the cruise we were on when she had been on the View. Off-air, the audience was told by Rosie's people that Rosie would pay for them to go on Rosie's cruise or, if they felt more comfortable, a "regular" Carnival cruise. So it was cool that the straight families that did go made that choice. Anyway, it's the only cruise I've ever been on so I can't compare it to other cruises, but it was rather magnificent.

Are there any inclusive LGBTIQ cruises? I know that Rosie's (ex? I don't keep up with celebrity gossip but I feel like I heard that somewhere) wife is the founder of one and I -think- I heard that one was inclusive - although it is for families.

If there was something like that I would be interested.

Oh, and add me to the "oh HELL naw" column on the subject of Olivia. I know where I'm not wanted.

[MysticOceansFL]

Knowing what you know , and a good chance of you not getting your money back , you would go ahead and book anyway :| Not sure this has anything to do with being a follower ....But you have money like that to burn , I say go for it ,but I wouldn't bother packing your bags :)




Who's to say they would turn me away from going on the trip?

[betenoire]

We went on a Rosie Cruz to the Caribbean (r family vacations, now run by the ex, Kelly). Funny enough, we were by chance in a cabin beside another butch femme couple and their daughter. There were definitely singles and couples without kids too. We were told in casual conversation that R Family Vacations is more down-to-earth than Olivia (in talk of comparing between those who had been on both). I don't know specifically about their trans policy but the cruise had a very diverse feel to it. Some queer families brought grandparents, kinda touching to me! Also for that specific cruise, Rosie had impulsively invited the whole audience to go on the cruise we were on when she had been on the View. Off-air, the audience was told by Rosie's people that Rosie would pay for them to go on Rosie's cruise or, if they felt more comfortable, a "regular" Carnival cruise. So it was cool that the straight families that did go made that choice. Anyway, it's the only cruise I've ever been on so I can't compare it to other cruises, but it was rather magnificent.

That's so cool!

I tell you - I love Rosie.

[Strappie]

Wow. I never expected to see so many replies nor see what I saw.

I did book with Olivia and here is why...

My former spouse (who passed away) and I took a cruise together as our last trip. Cal was a TG butch and could easily pass for a guy if he wanted to.

We were treated with nothing but respect. We met some lovely people on the trip. Olivia went above and beyond to assist us since Cal was dying from cancer. Not one person was rude to us. Not one comment from either the Olivia staff or anyone on the cruise.

I knew at that time I wanted to take another trip with them and now I am.

I certainly didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. All I wondered was if anyone else here might be going. If someone is going feel free to PM me.

Have a good week,

MS

Mountainstar,

I'm sorry this happened on your time and thread. I do wish you a happy cruise. I also am sorry for your loss. I know you will go on this cruise and have the time of you life. You will have memories from the past and will get to gather new memories. I truly wish you great travels!!

[SassyLeo]

I would be interested to hear about the cruise line Sweet. They do a lot of activism... building schools, fixing computers, etc... to the depressed countries they visit... That's a part of their philosophy of cruising...

Anyone know?

Here is their link:

http://discoversweet.com/

Who can travel with Sweet?
Sweet loves our allies in all shapes and flavors. So while our vacations are designed for lesbians, anyone who looks at what we do and thinks it looks like fun is welcome to join us.

Their FAQ (http://discoversweet.com/about/faq/)

I would be interested to know if that's just talk or if they mean it, though. Like if someone who had actually been on one of their cruises could give us the skinny on things - that would be nice.

I have never been in a Sweet vacation, but I have heard they are very open and progressive.
I did take a look at the photos they have on their website, and while I do not know, obviously, how everyone in the photos identifies...there is definitely a variety of folks: http://discoversweet.com/photos/

[nycfem]

I never knew this, Jack, and feel strongly about protecting oceans and sea life. It should have been common sense but I really hadn't thought about it. Now that I read what you wrote and google and see just how damaging cruises are to the environment, no more cruises for me, that's for sure. Glad you posted this- I will share with others.

Today’s cruise ships carry on average between 3,000 and 7,000 people including the crew. A moderately sized ship on a week’s voyage can generate more than 200,000 gallons of human sewage – enough to fill 10 backyard swimming pools – a million gallons of gray water, 25,000 gallons of oily bilge water, more than 100 gallons of hazardous waste, and eight tons of solid waste, including ground up food waste. And almost all of it gets discharged into the environment either straight into the ocean or incinerated onboard and the ashes thrown overboard with a small amount hauled on shore.

:runforhills:


So what they don't dump, they burn while folks are enjoying their cruise.
:confused:

[Gemme]

Today’s cruise ships carry on average between 3,000 and 7,000 people including the crew. A moderately sized ship on a week’s voyage can generate more than 200,000 gallons of human sewage – enough to fill 10 backyard swimming pools – a million gallons of gray water, 25,000 gallons of oily bilge water, more than 100 gallons of hazardous waste, and eight tons of solid waste, including ground up food waste. And almost all of it gets discharged into the environment either straight into the ocean or incinerated onboard and the ashes thrown overboard with a small amount hauled on shore.

:runforhills:


So what they don't dump, they burn while folks are enjoying their cruise.
:confused:

It all comes down to this in the end, doesn't it?

:blowingitup:

Someone's been living with Medusa. :blink:

:)

[betenoire]

I'm a licensed plumber... I cant help but wonder :cheesy:

Now sounds like a good time for me to bitch about the weird screaming pipes in my building. Whenever I, or anybody else in the building, runs the water for more than about 90 seconds the pipes all screech for a good 5 minutes afterward.

Not your fault, obviously. You've never been here. But I'd like you to let me know if I am going to die a horrible death from screeching pipes (hey! anything is possible!) or if we should all collectively continue to ignore it.

[waxnrope]

You guys are just full of it :rofl:

[Kobi]

I can see all the forms of phobias, and inclusion/exclusion and probably a few isms as well.

What I cant seem to get passed is ....what do you mean I am stuck on a huge ship with thousands of people I dont know in the middle of nowhere for a week? :seeingstars: Not even dealing with the poo issue....thanks Jack.

Maybe a harbor cruise or a day sailing trip hugging the coast? Anyone?

[MysticOceansFL]

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?

[Julie]

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?

Mystic,

I have read each and every comment on this thread, and from what I gather, I do not believe this has anything to do with a popularity contest.

It comes down to commonalities with people. Personally, I would not be friends with a Racist. They would not fit very well in my community and I would do what I could to educate, to inform them what this does to our global community when they speak this way. The same holds true in "our" community. If we support organizations that are "exclusive" and not "inclusive" then we are in fact perpetuating the same bigotry. If I allow people in my "world," who support such things, such as racist organizations or even organizations who are not supportive and inflammatory toward my community, then I am in fact perpetuating the same thing. I will however, offer my voice as a means to educate.

I do not know you personally, but most likely would not invite you into my inner circle. Not because you are not lovely, but because you support such organizations. I would not attend a party which served Coors beer - Even though Coors changed their policy, I still will not allow it in my house.

I also boycott the Michigan Womyns Music Festival - And I have no time for those that support an exclusive organization.

Julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?


This is kinda ridiculous, to assume that people are posting their opinions so that all their friends follow like sheeple and not go on a vacation if that is what they wanted to do.

If (insert name) decided tomorrow that she was going on and Olivia Cruise, I would be like :|

I would more than likely talk to her about it, and our friendship would change since she is supporting a place I do not for it's policies. I don't know to what degree it would change but I am pretty positive that I would not just kick her to the curb without having some kind of dialogue.


Once again I find it odd that you are reading some subliminal message that is saying if pick a side or you are out the club.

Really odd.

:|


PS

Can someone PLEASE point out the phobia, inclusion/exclusion ism's comments?????? PLEASE

[suebee]

I've been shaking my head since I saw this thread yesterday. Mountainstar has had her thread good and throughly hijacked. I believe it was intended to be about the cruise - maybe about other vacations. But between issues with Olivia and issues with the cruise ship industry in general I think we've managed to sour something that was light and fun for her - especially in light of what the cruise meant to her.

I guess it's too late to suggest that another thread might be a better place to sound off on the issues that are being brought up, but I just felt compelled to put in my two cents worth.

I hope you enjoy yourself MS.

Sue

[SuperFemme]

Right. The thread was hijacked by the horrible people who WERE discussing cruises.

Oh wait. What is being said is that it's only discussing if it shits glitter and sunshine.

Of course we want Mountain to have a good cruise, and it wasn't in the OP that it was shared what it meant to HER on a very PERSONAL level. Ironically, as a person with terminal cancer AND a spouse named Cal, I can totally say that if I were in her shoes I'd probably be doing exactly what she is doing.

Not liking Olivia Cruises or cruises in general that are not environmentally friendly does NOT mean that there are ill wishes towards the OP.

I swear.

[suebee]

Right. The thread was hijacked by the horrible people who WERE discussing cruises.

Oh wait. What is being said is that it's only discussing if it shits glitter and sunshine.

Of course we want Mountain to have a good cruise, and it wasn't in the OP that it was shared what it meant to HER on a very PERSONAL level. Ironically, as a person with terminal cancer AND a spouse named Cal, I can totally say that if I were in her shoes I'd probably be doing exactly what she is doing.

Not liking Olivia Cruises or cruises in general that are not environmentally friendly does NOT mean that there are ill wishes towards the OP.

I swear.

I agree with everything you're saying - except about shitting glitter. Never WAS able to do that.

Usually we ask that a thread stay on topic, and that another thread be started if a splinter issue comes up. But thanks for answering.

Sue

[BullDog]

I do understand that having a butch femme group event on a lesbian cruise is totally inappropriate because not all butch femme community members are lesbians.

For people going on vacations on an individual basis with their spouses, significant others or friends that are not lesbians they would choose a different type of vacation. I totally get that. Or you may be a lesbian who just doesn't want to be stuck on a ship with thousands of other lesbians. Or you don't like cruises for environmental or other reasons. I totally get that.

If lesbian transwomen are discriminated against I think that is wrong. They are lesbians and women too and of course should be included. I do support the need and desire for having women's only space. I do not support any organization that excludes transwomen from their definition of women's space.

I also think it's wrong for anyone to be treated rudely at the docks or anywhere else.

What I don't understand is people seem to be upset that Olivia Cruises is geared towards lesbians and that it isn't inclusive? I don't think it was set up so they could say x, y and z can't go. It was set up for lesbians to have vacations geared for them. There's nothing on their website talking about who can't go. It talks about being a lesbian owned travel business that sets up vacations for lesbians.

There are lots of vacation businesses and packages that are geared towards gay men. I have never been offended that they aren't geared for me. I am not interested in buying a vacation package to go on a cruise or other type of vacation geared towards gay men. I hope they have a great time.

Are people saying its wrong that all queers are not included? Why can't a travel business set up vacations aimed for lesbians? Or for gay men? Is there a different between Olivia Cruises and some travel business geared towards gay men? I genuinely am puzzled. If people wanted to have a butch femme vacation business I think that would be great and a queer vacation business for every single type of queer person would be great too. However, I don't think every single travel or other business needs to be geared towards every single type of queer person.

My other question is do people who are not lesbians really want to go on vacations geared towards lesbians?

I totally understand everyone can make their choices about where and who they want to vacation with and how they spend their money. I am not understanding why setting up vacations where lesbians are the target audience is wrong.

[SuperFemme]

Newsflash: There are many, many LESBIANS who are partnered with transfolk.

[BullDog]

Yes I am very well aware of that. I said that in my post.

[Corkey]

As a business I wouldn't be making judgements on who could or could not attend. As a business set up for lesbians who sometimes partner with FTM's it would be incumbent upon my business to be as accommodating as possible so that I have return business. If I just say you are on your own take your money and deny you passage on my business then my ethics do indeed need to be examined.

[Ebon]

Yes I am very well aware of that. I said that in my post.

Well the point is that the Olivia lesboat was discriminating against transfolks, not that it was wrong to have gay/lesbian only vacations.

[chefhmboyrd]

i personally have no interest in a lesbian cruise, whether or not i was "allowed" to go on the boat, there would undoubtably be haters present.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Damn bully, I don't think this is really about Olivia not wanting men on their cruise, I get that.

I happen to be with someone who is a guy, so does that mean I get my women's space privileges taken away?

Another thing, let's be honest the reason so many people came on here with their concerns and posts about Olivia cause in another place and time SOMEONE was trying to hoodwink all of us by saying one thing, some people called and got a different story, then SOMEONE came in wagged their finger and stomped their feet and called people names.

THEN what pissed people off more was more evidence was given, and then ALL the Queens Horses and ALL the Queens Gals came in and not only wagged their finger and used academic language to basically say.

Hey mother fucker you don't pay to post here so shut the fuck up.


That's why we all have a sensitive spot when it comes to Olivia and it spilled over here..

I know on my end of the world none of the people in my pack want to participate with Olivia due to well it's women's space and well we all tend to stick together and will not go where trans follk are not welcome.

That's how we roll though.


No one is wanting to take over Olivia's women's space what we have here is a lot of people saying how they feel, some of us with some hurt feelings over it.

Unfortunately it happened in a thread MS started asking us if we are all going.


True story

[Gayla]

What people are saying is that we each have an individual choice as to whether we support Olivia by attending their events and giving them our money.

Right now, where I'm at in my life today, I can't imagine spending any amount of time on a boat full of 3,000 lesbians. That's not some place that I would be comfortable. It doesn't sound like fun. Throw me on a boat full of 3,000 gay men, I'd probably have much more fun.

Olivia has the "right" to do whatever they want in the way they structure their business and who they choose to cater to in the same way that I get to decide who I support monetarily. In the past, I did support Olivia and give them quite a bit of my money. That was back when they were a women's music company and not a cruise line.

There seems to be some type of underlying insinuation that we should all support Olivia because they are a woman-owned / lesbian-owned business and that we are somehow "bad lesbians" or anti-lesbian or lesbiphobic if we don't.

[Laerkin]

I'm a little late getting to this thread, so I apologize if this is repetitive.

I'd like to start by reiterating what was said in previous posts. This is certainly not in any way a comment or attack on the OP.

First, on nycfembbw's post from Olivia GuestServices:

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -
...

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests.

Um, my initial response was "f*** you, Customer Service Jackass". This is completely ridiculous. So if their primary customer base were to suddenly feel "disrupted" by people of color or people with handicaps, would they discourage such customers as well? This answer is so offensive I feel sick.

I have got to the point in My life that , if I or My butch brothers are not welcome somewhere , fuck em ! I will take My money and My brothers and go else where ! And if these idiots thought about what they where missing out on, they would see they could be making alot more money and meet some awesome folks that they choose to not associate with ...:sunglass:

I'm with you, Billy. I may not be trans or butch, but people that I care about are so Olivia can keep their cruises and we will have way more fun with our INCLUSIVE community elsewhere.

I am more sickened by discrimination within our community than anything. These people KNOW what it's like to suffer fewer rights, ignorance, law's that attempt to make us 2nd class and yet they turn around and behave this way towards another group within our LGBT community?

Today’s cruise ships carry on average between 3,000 and 7,000 people including the crew. A moderately sized ship on a week’s voyage can generate more than 200,000 gallons of human sewage – enough to fill 10 backyard swimming pools – a million gallons of gray water, 25,000 gallons of oily bilge water, more than 100 gallons of hazardous waste, and eight tons of solid waste, including ground up food waste. And almost all of it gets discharged into the environment either straight into the ocean or incinerated onboard and the ashes thrown overboard with a small amount hauled on shore.

So what they don't dump, they burn while folks are enjoying their cruise.

Jackhammer, thank you for this information. I've never been on a cruise (more the adventure and off-the-beaten path traveler), but I've considered it a few times with friends.

After reading this, I can say I will now never experience a cruise in this lifetime unless some major improvements are made to how these environmental hazards are handled. I'm disgusted in an entirely new way, now.

And I'm passing this along to my friends and family that do enjoy cruises. If they choose to vacation that way, I want to ensure they're informed about their choices.

Ugh!

[BullDog]

What people are saying is that we each have an individual choice as to whether we support Olivia by attending their events and giving them our money.

Right now, where I'm at in my life today, I can't imagine spending any amount of time on a boat full of 3,000 lesbians. That's not some place that I would be comfortable. It doesn't sound like fun. Throw me on a boat full of 3,000 gay men, I'd probably have much more fun.

Olivia has the "right" to do whatever they want in the way they structure their business and who they choose to cater to in the same way that I get to decide who I support monetarily. In the past, I did support Olivia and give them quite a bit of my money. That was back when they were a women's music company and not a cruise line.

There seems to be some type of underlying insinuation that we should all support Olivia because they are a woman-owned / lesbian-owned business and that we are somehow "bad lesbians" or anti-lesbian or lesbiphobic if we don't.

I personally am not insinuating anything. I have a genuine question.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't get it why every fucking time someone or we as a community try to speak of trans issues or transphobia it turns into this.

Why does it seem as soon as to much trans talk happens this whole fear runs amock in whatever thread that lesbians are being attacked..

I have asked several damn times where the hell is all the divisive, phobic statements against lesbians and ism's being said.

Cause god damn it, some of us have some trans folks in our lives who get tired of every time a discussion happens the accusations of lesbians not wanted arises..

Ridiculous.

[BullDog]

Snow if you are referring to my post I said what my position on including transwomen was and didn't accuse anyone of anything.

[BullDog]

i personally have no interest in a lesbian cruise, whether or not i was "allowed" to go on the boat, there would undoubtably be haters present.

I think there are haters present in any group.

[BullDog]

Damn bully, I don't think this is really about Olivia not wanting men on their cruise, I get that.

I happen to be with someone who is a guy, so does that mean I get my women's space privileges taken away?

Another thing, let's be honest the reason so many people came on here with their concerns and posts about Olivia cause in another place and time SOMEONE was trying to hoodwink all of us by saying one thing, some people called and got a different story, then SOMEONE came in wagged their finger and stomped their feet and called people names.

THEN what pissed people off more was more evidence was given, and then ALL the Queens Horses and ALL the Queens Gals came in and not only wagged their finger and used academic language to basically say.

Hey mother fucker you don't pay to post here so shut the fuck up.


That's why we all have a sensitive spot when it comes to Olivia and it spilled over here..

I know on my end of the world none of the people in my pack want to participate with Olivia due to well it's women's space and well we all tend to stick together and will not go where trans follk are not welcome.

That's how we roll though.


No one is wanting to take over Olivia's women's space what we have here is a lot of people saying how they feel, some of us with some hurt feelings over it.

Unfortunately it happened in a thread MS started asking us if we are all going.


True story

Thanks Snow. I have been reading this thread for days and still am trying to understand. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am supportive of women's space and maybe that is where the difference in opinion lies. As I said earlier I do absolutely think transwomen should be included and if they are not that is transphobic and wrong.

Edit: I am not familiar with the prior incident.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks Snow. I have been reading this thread for days and still am trying to understand. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am supportive of women's space and maybe that is where the difference in opinion lies. As I said earlier I do absolutely think transwomen should be included and if they are not that is transphobic and wrong.


I don't get how you don't understand...

The Original Gender Spectrum tried to hood wink its community with a get together where it is WOMENS SPACE, this is where all the sensitivity is from.



Unfortunately we all took a shit, on MS thread because we all brought our hurt feelings and frustrations and voiced them out in type.

I am gonna be honest here so bare with me.

Once again because some people, who btw are women who do not agree with the bullshit and lies posted.

Then it somehow translated into anti lesbian craziness.

It happens A LOT if trans issues are discussed by the same group of peeps.

It's a tiring pattern.


No one wants Olivia to open up their gates to men. *I* don't think any woman's space should have to

But don't be a liar and say you got a buddy in the system that is gonna make it all better cause well it's not true.

This is what this spill over is from.

True story

[BullDog]

I don't get how you don't understand...

The Original Gender Spectrum tried to hood wink its community with a get together where it is WOMENS SPACE, this is where all the sensitivity is from.



Unfortunately we all took a shit, on MS thread because we all brought our hurt feelings and frustrations and voiced them out in type.

I am gonna be honest here so bare with me.

Once again because some people, who btw are women who do not agree with the bullshit and lies posted.

Then it somehow translated into anti lesbian craziness.

It happens A LOT if trans issues are discussed by the same group of peeps.

It's a tiring pattern.


No one wants Olivia to open up their gates to men. *I* don't think any woman's space should have to

But don't be a liar and say you got a buddy in the system that is gonna make it all better cause well it's not true.

This is what this spill over is from.

True story

Don't be a liar? I'm not lying about anything.

As to the other stuff if you are referring to the cruise set up by another website owner I think the whole thing is bullshit, but I haven't followed the story. I am still on the email list just because it's quite amazing to see just how many ways one person can attempt to make money off of her so-called "community."

[Corkey]

Jebus Bully no one is calling you the liar, please re read and you will see who is being referenced.

[BullDog]

OK, ok sorry Snow. I see what the liar part is referring to now. Olivia Cruise is not appropriate for holding a butch femme event. I agree. That was the first thing I said.

I really thought people were saying it was wrong to have vacations geared towards lesbians, but if that is not the case then I think I am clear on things. And yeah, I haven't been following the other story but I can see where it would make things raw.

Thank you.

[Gemme]

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?

Infinite and Snow did an awesome job answering you but I'll throw my .02 out there too.

We're on a site that is for adults only. Sure, there's the occasional reversion back to childhood moments of retaliation and sulking and tattling, etc...but, for the most part, we're adults here and act accordingly.

The connection I think you are seeing is not so much as "if you don't, I won't" but the recoil from seeing loved ones being blatantly rejected though they are a part of the same community that is promoted by the cruise line.

There was a comment to you made a bit ago (I've forgotten by whom) about what may happen when you show up at the dock. I don't know you personally and you've not posted any pics of yourself in the gallery, so I have no idea what you look like. That comment was addressing the possibility of you presenting quite masculine in appearance. If that's the case, yo may have problems with your cruise. If you present more adrogynous, from the stories posted, I'd say you have a higher likelihood of enjoying your vacation thoroughly.

If you do partake of an Olivia cruise in the future, I hope you have a wonderful time. I've cruised, though not with Olivia, and I enjoyed it immensely.

[naturlover_52]

[QUOTE=gayla;187445]What people are saying is that we each have an individual choice as to whether we support Olivia by attending their events and giving them our money.
Right now, where I'm at in my life today, I can't imagine spending any amount of time on a boat full of 3,000 lesbians. That's not some place that I would be comfortable. It doesn't sound like fun. Throw me on a boat full of 3,000 gay men, I'd probably have much more fun.


I would have to Agree w/ Gayla...About NOT wanting to be on a boat w/ 3,000 lesbians....BUT for me I just am NOT a cruise type person....lesbian OR Straight. I lived in Alaska for 7 years in Fairbanks and saw the people being carted around like Cattle....I would have to agree w/ the rest of those that have posted about Olivia being Unaccommodating to ALL of the Community.

I am NOT a follower SOOO I don't go by what MY friends are doing or as support.....I do it because of the fact that like ANOTHER member stated....I don't support ANY kind of ISM....BE it be Sexuality based, gender based or race based.

and as to what Snow said....Then it somehow translated into anti lesbian craziness.
It happens A LOT if trans issues are discussed by the same group of peeps.

ONLY one person wanted this thread moved because of the fact that is was ANTIlesbian...and ADMIN spoke to her.

I have been following this post ALL the way along...I agree that Olivia is a business and HAS their right to do business how they want....I would rather GO to Alaska Via Ferry w/ friends gay, straight, trans...JUST because there is MORE freedom to DO what U want....travel where U want....and NOT have to follow the rules of a COMPANY. If I was gonna drop money like this ON a vacation it would be to go to like Hawaii to the BIG island...and maybe go to a GENERAL Gay....area....by gay....I mean the Community as a whole.

Thanks

[Billy]

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?


We are not talking about ANOTHER cruise line here .....We all have that option ..The point I was trying to make is YOU and I are not welcome on this ship ....Why would you go and make reservations on a ship you are not welcome on and take the chance of NOT getting your money back or even making it off the dock because you don't want to be a follwer ..This has nothing to do with being a follower ..The facts have been posted here very clearly ...If Me and My butch and trans brothers are not WELCOME period , I am not going ...Has NOTHING to do with I won't be your friend if this person goes or that person goes ...I'm starting to wonder if we are reading the same thread :|

[BullDog]

I did find the other convo on the other channel. I do agree with the concerns raised and also the points of making sure everyone would be welcomed and comfortable while at the same time respecting women's space. Interesting how people were treated for raising genuine concerns. Hmmm

I don't think women's only or lesbian space is exclusionary unless there are some women or lesbians (for example transwomen) who are not welcome. I don't feel businesses set up to cater to gay men are exclusionary. I do not feel excluded when trans events for trans people are organized.

[Billy]

I did find the other convo on the other channel. I do agree with the concerns raised and also the points of making sure everyone would be welcomed and comfortable while at the same time respecting women's space. Interesting how people were treated for raising genuine concerns. Hmmm

I don't think women's only or lesbian space is exclusionary unless there are some women or lesbians (for example transwomen) who are not welcome. I don't feel businesses set up to cater to gay men are exclusionary. I do not feel excluded when trans events for trans people are organized.

Hey I am all for a Lesbian cruise :) Have no problem with it ...But not all lesbians are femme and it seemed to leave out the folks that are more masculine and it should not matter what you look like , if you ID as Lesbian then all Lesbian should be welcome ..:)

[UofMfan]

Well the point is that the Olivia lesboat was discriminating against transfolks, not that it was wrong to have gay/lesbian only vacations.

MODERATING:

OrganicButch, I am going to ask you to refrain from using terms that are offensive, derisive and inflammatory when posting on this site. There are other ways of getting your point across.

Thank you.

[BullDog]

Hey I am all for a Lesbian cruise :) Have no problem with it ...But not all lesbians are femme and it seemed to leave out the folks that are more masculine and it should not matter what you look like , if you ID as Lesbian then all Lesbian should be welcome ..:)

I am a lesbian butch with a masculine appearance. I don't think I would have a problem if I wanted to go. As to butches and appearance you really can't tell by looking at someone whether they are lesbian or not. :) Many butches are lesbian. Some are not.

[Corkey]

Tell that to Blaze who was left holding a ticket on the docks. Don't know how Blaze ID'd at the time, but it would appear that appearance was the case.

[weatherboi]

hi Bulldog!!!
hi folks!!!

appearance aside i think there is a difference in how a group of female id'd butches are gonna be perceived/received by olivia than a group of male id'd butches.

[Blaze]

Wow, I go to work and come back to see all of this...
Since Corkey said to ask me, I shall explain what happened. There was 22 of us that planned this for about a year. If you want the break down it was 9 Femmes, 10 Butches, 2 MTF and one FTM. Mind you, we all pretty much grew up together.
At that time, I was a Stone butch, and looked more like a surfer boy. Yes lesbian as I was venturing into my transitioning. I have no problem with whom or whom ever you may be. I just love my community and I am very protective of our community. Especially my FTM and MTF family. I relate most with because the understand what each other is going through while transitioning. I don't condemn any walk of life. That's the problem, we all start pointing finger and judging way before we actually acknowlede that we all bleed the same!
If some where making the assumtion that I was being disrespectful to the lesbian community than you took the football and ran your own game. I am a lesbian in transitioning of my own choice, I will always love my lesbian community because it is my roots. I just happen to love and respect my femme ladies, because I am Butch/trans.
Now that this is clear. My whole point was that we were disrespected. I don't appreciate that at all. Perhaps I shouldn't have put my story on this thread, BUT. I do have the right to state why I choose not to support or spend my hard own money on Olivia's cruise. If this all started the whole change, then I apologize to anyone I did offend. But in my eyes, I did not insult anyone. I just pointed out why I would never and I said NEVER support that company, ever.
I don't see anything in my post discriminating any gender or claimed group.

[Billy]

I am a lesbian butch with a masculine appearance. I don't think I would have a problem if I wanted to go. As to butches and appearance you really can't tell by looking at someone whether they are lesbian or not. :) Many butches are lesbian. Some are not.


I bet the price of that cruise your not going to get on :) Because you are masculine looking ..They have already said you are not welcome ...I could be wrong and I have been all day ..lol But I think someone posted a letter from them ...

[Isadora]

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch. :byebye:

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them. :seeingstars:

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago. :sunglass:

*shrug*

[Billy]

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch. :byebye:

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them. :seeingstars:

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago. :sunglass:

*shrug*


It's always a pleasure to see you :)

If I may ask ..Was this cruise with the same cruise line or was it another cruise line ......And I am wondering if they changed policy's since then ...

[Isadora]

It's always a pleasure to see you :)

If I may ask ..Was this cruise with the same cruise line or was it another cruise line ......And I am wondering if they changed policy's since then ...

*smiles Thank you!

Same cruise line Olivia...same people. We actually flew in with Judy Dlugacz. I met Judy years ago when Olivia was a recording company. I have no idea. Did they say you couldn't come? I must be missing something. LOL

[SuperFemme]

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -

Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM.

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2.



Thank you,



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jeri Umble
sr. director, customer care


olivia
434 brannan street
san francisco ca 94107

415.962.5700 tel
415.962-5713 fax

feel free
www.olivia.com (http://www.olivia.com)

does this qualify as he shouldn't come?

[Billy]

*smiles Thank you!

Same cruise line Olivia...same people. We actually flew in with Judy Dlugacz. I met Judy years ago when Olivia was a recording company. I have no idea. Did they say you couldn't come? I must be missing something. LOL


I am glad you enjoyed you time on the cruise :) But I think since then they have changed their policy it seems ....They seem to have issues with the more masculine looking Lesbians or butch /stone etc .....As for Me it's a given , I am not surprised by this at all ...:)

[Isadora]

does this qualify as he shouldn't come?

Wow. Really? Did you mean to come across as accusatory and nasty or is it just me? I have never seen this. Sad. I read the whole thread. I had no idea. Lots of things change over the years. I bet all the butches I watched play basketball on the cruise would be horrified.

[Medusa]

My thoughts on this subject:

I think that Olivia cruises has an absolute right to cater their cruises to whoever they want their target audience to be. Hell, we do that here :)
I also have heard some very wonderful stories from people who have gone on Olivia cruises and a few stories where people didn't have such a good time for various reasons. I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

I have personally never been on an Olivia cruise but I have been on Princess cruises. I chose Princess cruises over an Olivia cruise because at the time, it was an issue of cost. (not knowing about the recent communications about their policies). Olivia cruises were, at that time, about 40% more expensive than the other line.

I don't think that people who go on Olivia cruises are bad people at all. I don't think Olivia cruises is a bad cruise line. I do think that their policies for Queer folks can feel exclusionary for Transwomen and masculine folks.

Because of the people who make up the membership of this website, our site will never host a Reunion party or, for that matter, a party of any kind with Olivia cruises or Olivia resorts. We owe it to our membership to consider their safety and comfort when we choose locations.
We won't always be in spaces that are specifically Queer, but we'll do our best to pick an awesome place that is welcoming, accessible, and also financially accessible.

[SuperFemme]

Wow. Really? Did you mean to come across as accusatory and nasty or is it just me? I have never seen this. Sad. I read the whole thread. I had no idea. Lots of things change over the years. I bet all the butches I watched play basketball on the cruise would be horrified.

It's just you. That's okay though, I forgive you for thinking that. I really was simply reposting the info because I felt it answered your question. :praying:

[Isadora]

sad sad sad

I really am saddened by this. It is like the closing of windows and doors...the blocking off of community. I won't go on Olivia for many reasons again but I did have fun on the one I went on and no one was treated badly that I saw or heard of...

*shrug*

[Billy]

My thoughts on this subject:

I think that Olivia cruises has an absolute right to cater their cruises to whoever they want their target audience to be. Hell, we do that here :)
I also have heard some very wonderful stories from people who have gone on Olivia cruises and a few stories where people didn't have such a good time for various reasons. I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

I have personally never been on an Olivia cruise but I have been on Princess cruises. I chose Princess cruises over an Olivia cruise because at the time, it was an issue of cost. (not knowing about the recent communications about their policies). Olivia cruises were, at that time, about 40% more expensive than the other line.

I don't think that people who go on Olivia cruises are bad people at all. I don't think Olivia cruises is a bad cruise line. I do think that their policies for Queer folks can feel exclusionary for Transwomen and masculine folks.

Because of the people who make up the membership of this website, our site will never host a Reunion party or, for that matter, a party of any kind with Olivia cruises or Olivia resorts. We owe it to our membership to consider their safety and comfort when we choose locations.
We won't always be in spaces that are specifically Queer, but we'll do our best to pick an awesome place that is welcoming, accessible, and also financially accessible.
Oh I agree with you ..They have every right to cater to whom ever they wish ...And for Me it's a given and I do understand that someone like Me on a Lesbian cruise is not cool :) I have no problem with that ...:) I think it's sad that they are going by looks instead of how someone Id's ...

My point with bulldog and MysticOcean was because of YOUR looks your not getting on that ship ..Doesn't matter how you ID ...And why take a chance with your money , knowing a head of time they will not let you on . :)

[nycfem]

I think that the problem is not that an MTF, very masculine appearing butch, or anyone trans identified WILL be discriminated against; it's that if that should happen, Olivia does not take a stand that they have our backs. I was struck that Olivia's response was very sly. Perhaps for legal reasons the customer care director cannot simply say that Olivia doesn't want anyone on the trans spectrum, including lesbian identified MTFs:

"Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?"

The "but" is particularly interesting, as in my world MTFs who ID as lesbian ARE lesbians!

Before I inquired I checked their whole website and noticed that "T" was nowhere in site. Just as at the Mich Fest there are supporters and allies of trans women, so is true at Olivia. But whereas at Mich Fest it's their land and they can dictate (Lisa and Boo), some of the issues might be different legally for a cruise to begin saying who is a certain gender and who is not. That's why I think that the extreme prejudice in the email is so underhanded and "polite." It's very careful. But not careful enough- I'm glad she put it in writing!

[Gayla]

sad sad sad

I really am saddened by this. It is like the closing of windows and doors...the blocking off of community. I won't go on Olivia for many reasons again but I did have fun on the one I went on and no one was treated badly that I saw or heard of...

*shrug*

It's been awhile since I've thought about Olivia as anything other than the cruise people but when I stop and remember what they used to be, to me personally, it is sad. They did really important things that had a very formative effect on me.

[Isadora]

It's been awhile since I've thought about Olivia as anything other than the cruise people but when I stop and remember what they used to be, to me personally, it is sad. They did really important things that had a very formative effect on me.

Exactly. Pushing 60, I am saddened by the who they are now, how they don't open to the wonders of the world they helped create, to rejoice in people being free and being themselves. This is what I remember, not this cruel lack of compassion and social justice.

[Medusa]

Exactly. Pushing 60, I am saddened by the who they are now, how they don't open to the wonders of the world they helped create, to rejoice in people being free and being themselves. This is what I remember, not this cruel lack of compassion and social justice.

I had no idea they used to be a recording company! I'd actually love to hear more about that
(Going to Google!)

[Gayla]

I had no idea they used to be a recording company! I'd actually love to hear more about that
(Going to Google!)

This (http://www.queermusicheritage.us/olivia.html)what I used to know them as. And if you scroll down to the album covers, I think I owned most of those at one point.

This (http://www.rainbowhistory.org/olivia75.pdf)was very cool to find.

This was my first and I still listen to it somewhat regularly.

Between the bookstores I ran and the concerts/festivals I was a part of, I worked with both Olivia and Ladyslipper for a good number of years. Some amazing women doing some amazing things at the time.

[SassyLeo]

I think that the problem is not that an MTF, very masculine appearing butch, or anyone trans identified WILL be discriminated against; it's that if that should happen, Olivia does not take a stand that they have our backs. I was struck that Olivia's response was very sly. Perhaps for legal reasons the customer care director cannot simply say that Olivia doesn't want anyone on the trans spectrum, including lesbian identified MTFs:

"Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?"

The "but" is particularly interesting, as in my world MTFs who ID as lesbian ARE lesbians!

Before I inquired I checked their whole website and noticed that "T" was nowhere in site. Just as at the Mich Fest there are supporters and allies of trans women, so is true at Olivia. But whereas at Mich Fest it's their land and they can dictate (Lisa and Boo), some of the issues might be different legally for a cruise to begin saying who is a certain gender and who is not. That's why I think that the extreme prejudice in the email is so underhanded and "polite." It's very careful. But not careful enough- I'm glad she put it in writing!

For some reason, I keep getting stuck on this:

"you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests"

"will find" ...as if it has happened before? Maybe this is why they changed their policies?

Also, "upsetting" ...as in someone would freak out?

Such a weird way to answer the email...

[BullDog]

hi Bulldog!!!
hi folks!!!

appearance aside i think there is a difference in how a group of female id'd butches are gonna be perceived/received by olivia than a group of male id'd butches.

How so? How would anyone know? Many of you just were at the BFP Reunion or have been in a group of butches where they were various identities. Are you telling me that male id'd butches look and act different than woman/female butches?

[BullDog]

I bet the price of that cruise your not going to get on :) Because you are masculine looking ..They have already said you are not welcome ...I could be wrong and I have been all day ..lol But I think someone posted a letter from them ...

Billy, I have been a lesbian for 30 years and have very masculine butch friends as well. We have never been turned away from lesbian events.

[BullDog]

My thoughts on this subject:

I think that Olivia cruises has an absolute right to cater their cruises to whoever they want their target audience to be. Hell, we do that here :)
I also have heard some very wonderful stories from people who have gone on Olivia cruises and a few stories where people didn't have such a good time for various reasons. I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

I have personally never been on an Olivia cruise but I have been on Princess cruises. I chose Princess cruises over an Olivia cruise because at the time, it was an issue of cost. (not knowing about the recent communications about their policies). Olivia cruises were, at that time, about 40% more expensive than the other line.

I don't think that people who go on Olivia cruises are bad people at all. I don't think Olivia cruises is a bad cruise line. I do think that their policies for Queer folks can feel exclusionary for Transwomen and masculine folks.

Because of the people who make up the membership of this website, our site will never host a Reunion party or, for that matter, a party of any kind with Olivia cruises or Olivia resorts. We owe it to our membership to consider their safety and comfort when we choose locations.
We won't always be in spaces that are specifically Queer, but we'll do our best to pick an awesome place that is welcoming, accessible, and also financially accessible.

I absolutely agree with this.

[Isadora]

I had no idea they used to be a recording company! I'd actually love to hear more about that
(Going to Google!)

We are spoiled in some way. There was no internet. There were no clubs or very few, deeply hidden. Stepping out was not like it is now. Marching was not a party but a real personal and political statement. What if my work sees me on tv? It was risk.

Olivia Records was part of the first movements to say basically, "Fuck you, we are who we are"....and it saddens me that that sense of political Empowerment, an agent of change, the beacon for femmes/butches/dykes/lesbians community to celebrate ourselves and even more it was a time of standing up strong and saying "FUCK YOU, I will not be closeted even in the face of constant harassment and violence." Together with Meg Christianson, Rita Mae Brown, and many other radical women we fucking pounded the pavements, screamed ourselves hoarse, knocked down barriers, fought in the streets and I did it in fucking HEELS.

It was immensely sad that when Alix Dobkin (whom I personally detest, long story) took the stage at the SF Dyke March and I don't think they knew her significance in their being there throwing frisbees topless or being Trans. There is a continuum of social justice. One freedom leads to more freedoms. Without Olivia Records, which was one of the first labels to openly,(there was also Redwood Records) because we know there were queers always in music, record queer voices, which led to queer magazines, that led to queer concerts, that led to queer protests...

So the very epitome of fighting for a voice and freedom restricting how that voice grew and blossomed is sad. Just sad.

Like many things commercialism and fear of poverty drives our paradigms and our radical becomes "Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM."

I madly loved two people in my life. An amazing butch and an amazing trans man. I always followed my heart, ok and my butterfly heh and my radical need for social justice/inclusiveness has never faltered even if my knees have.... So, now they become the recipient of "FUCK YOU, I will not be closeted even in the face of your constant harassment and violence." Violence of heart is just as harmful.

[socialjustice_fsu]

I wanted to add that cruising had been my choice of vacation venues for several years...Alaska, Eastern and Western Carribean, Nova Scotia, Mexico, Bermuda. My partner at the time and I researched carefully the cruises we felt we would be most comfortable on, the cost, the ports of call, etc. We looked in depth at Olivia as we had been Robin Tyler supporters for years through her music promotions and such. Something kind of got lost in the mix over the past few years, though. We had always used the same travel agent that knew us well. My partner had some masculine traits that were certainly noticable to the general public. Our travel agent suggested we go with a mainstream cruiseline as Olivia had become more and more 'selective' of their potential patrons. Not only was our agent inferring issues with the butch-femme dynamic but other underpinnings were alive and well, too. I could not leave that alone, of course. After some investigative delving we learned that Olivia - and I would say perhaps even the more affluent attracting cruiselines (Seven Seas, Seabourne, Celebrity, Cunard) - researched their potential passengers as to income level, credit worthiness, asset assessments, the overall 'value' of the person. We felt we were being scrutinized to buy a multimillion dollar home. No way for those myriad of reasons could we support such business practices. We have cruised Norwegian Cruiselines and found them to be more than accomodating...however, at this point I would only opt to support any business/venue that keeps in mind two premises: 1) one that would welcome ALL of our community and, 2) my safety.

While cruising can be the ultimate vacation for many...time has made me think differently. The cruiselines we did use welcomed us, my elderly mother, my crotchety 84 year old Aunt, and my 94 year old well traveled Aunt - yes, that flew in a helicopter and landed on Mendenhall Glacier. I would not ever want to lose those memories.

Now our environment is more in peril. I look for vacation venues that do not damage the environment as well as a means to somehow support all of my community.

Now we have folks such as Medusa and Jack who have been visionaries and provided a welcoming, safe space for all of us. The cost was minimal compared to any cruise. No, I did not attend the Reunion but I have lived vicariously through the photos and the posts. I am not going to miss 2011, either.

I can only hope MountainStar has a safe and memory-filled cruise. I just have to say that we have a gift of community being practically given to us with the support of this site. We are welcomed to this TABLE...let's enjoy this banquet.[/COLOR]

[Billy]

Billy, I have been a lesbian for 30 years and have very masculine butch friends as well. We have never been turned away from lesbian events.


This has nothing to do with how long you have been a Lesbian ...And we are not talking about ALL Lesbian events ....This is about 1 cruise line and their policy ! Like I said before I bet you the price of that cruise YOU because of your looks and their policy YOU are NOT getting on that ship ! I mean is this a ego thing here , because you have been a Lesbian for 30 years and have never been turned away from a Lesbian event , how dare they turn ME away ...Is there a special card you can flash ...And after everything you have read on this thread , I think you have missed the point ....

[Jess]

Maybe it's just me, but I see quite the few butch women in their videos. In keeping in mind that Olivia is "women's space" and was set up like many other women's spaces to provide safe space for women, I think they have been very successful in doing so.

I don't get being non-inclusive to transwomen. ( My definition is an MTF who lives life as a woman). I do however clearly get and support their right to exclude men. ( Trans or otherwise). I know this is not the intention of this thread to dissect the politics of gender othering, however since everyone else is tossing out their opinions, I felt safe in doing likewise. I don't have any problem with excluding men from women's space.

Don't know if the video will post, if not here is the link to their videos. There are a lot of butch women there, whether they embrace the term "butch" or not, they are clearly masculine presenting women, just not "male" presenting. To deny women only space is blatant sexism, in as much as supporting trans rights or lesbian rights, I can not do so at the expense of denying "women" space.

Hell, I would love to do the resort vacation ( not necessarily cruise) but until we can afford to do so and make arrangements for the boy to vacay with grandparents at the same time, it is not on our list.



http://www.olivia.com/Travel/experience_video/thmb_cruise.jpg

http://www.olivia.com/Travel/default.aspx

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* for one am glad that I am part of a site and community that is not going to hood wink me and that will have gatherings that are inclusive to all genders in the spectrum!!!


What a great fucking thing to be part of!!!

Thank you BFP!!!



:praying:

[weatherboi]

How so? How would anyone know? Many of you just were at the BFP Reunion or have been in a group of butches where they were various identities. Are you telling me that male id'd butches look and act different than woman/female butches?


Look different? If you read my post in its' entirety you would have noticed the first 2 words..."appearance aside"
Act different? No

What I am saying is focused on energy, natural instinct, and experience.
I am also talking about Olivia Cruise Lines only, which I stated in my post. It is a classist company geared towards lesbians of an above average household income!!! The employees have filters on from the get go!!! It is so very obvious to me how uneducated they are/were on dealing with trans issues when it came down to customer service. I was privy with my presence to both conversations Snow had with their customer service people and they made a mess of it. I have no desire to be in a female only space or a desire to try and make a female only space inclusive to guys like me.

IMO, if/when a group of male id'd butches come walking up onto their dock they may be, probably will be, perceived as frat guy like with the ability to be more rowdy/aggressive, or threatening even depending on said employees education about our community.

Bulldog...i hope this helps!!! :)

[citybutch]

My wife and I have been on two Olivia Cruises in the past... this century! I have to say that this was our experience as well... I wore suits and ties at night and she wore dresses... We saw many many masculine presenting Butches and no one was harrassed at all in our experience. I think Olivia needs some serious PR upgrades if they want to look toward a solid future in providing cruises to our community... and keep up with a younger generation... where clearly there is a deeper and broader acceptance of our rainbow of gender expression...

That in mind, we are not really interested in Olivia in the future. I think if we went on a cruise again we would look at Sweet Cruises based on some things that were posted here as well as the fact that they do good things as they are cruising... It is not simply about consumption but about giving back... and I like that a lot... With that being said... we have a lot more on our travel agenda over cruises...

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch. :byebye:

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them. :seeingstars:

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago. :sunglass:

*shrug*

[SuperFemme]

Aside from the whole issue of what Olivia does or does not do?
I have to admit I am not even a smidge interested in going on a cruise. (cruising in the queer sense is not off the list though).

Here is one of the reasons for my disdain:

Cso7NcQKBww

[MsMerrick]

Not to get too detailed.
I agree with what Medusa said
I personally know many very masculine looking Butches that have had a great time on Olivia Cruises
I remember the Music Label very well, an ex of mine had a record with them.
Myself, I would and have criticized any BF site that wanted to create a "site event" around an Olivia cruise, because it would not be a place all would be welcome and BF sites tend to be more diverse than Lesbian events. Oh and because frankly the expense would also cut out so many people that it would be insulting, imho.
Would i go on an Olivia Cruise?
Someone else wants to foot the bill, sure ;) Ok its not really my :tea: :)
It s way down on my list of things I would like to do.. But that's any cruise, any where..Just not my idea of fun...
Feel free to send me free cruise tickets, along with the air fare to get there..and change my mind ;)
and Morning Star, have a great time ; )

[BullDog]

This has nothing to do with how long you have been a Lesbian ...And we are not talking about ALL Lesbian events ....This is about 1 cruise line and their policy ! Like I said before I bet you the price of that cruise YOU because of your looks and their policy YOU are NOT getting on that ship ! I mean is this a ego thing here , because you have been a Lesbian for 30 years and have never been turned away from a Lesbian event , how dare they turn ME away ...Is there a special card you can flash ...And after everything you have read on this thread , I think you have missed the point ....

No I haven't missed the point. As many here have reported many butches have gone on Olivia Cruises and not been turned away. I know about lesbian events because I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome.

[BullDog]

Look different? If you read my post in its' entirety you would have noticed the first 2 words..."appearance aside"
Act different? No

What I am saying is focused on energy, natural instinct, and experience.
I am also talking about Olivia Cruise Lines only, which I stated in my post. It is a classist company geared towards lesbians of an above average household income!!! The employees have filters on from the get go!!! It is so very obvious to me how uneducated they are/were on dealing with trans issues when it came down to customer service. I was privy with my presence to both conversations Snow had with their customer service people and they made a mess of it. I have no desire to be in a female only space or a desire to try and make a female only space inclusive to guys like me.

IMO, if/when a group of male id'd butches come walking up onto their dock they may be, probably will be, perceived as frat guy like with the ability to be more rowdy/aggressive, or threatening even depending on said employees education about our community.

Bulldog...i hope this helps!!! :)

How are they going to know you are male identified butches?

You say you have no desire to be in female only space. That makes sense to me. It seems male identified people wouldn't want to go but are complaining that they are being excluded. That doesn't make sense to me.

[betenoire]

No I haven't missed the point. As many here have reported many butches have gone on Olivia Cruises and not been turned away. I know about lesbian events because I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome.

Well since you're the authority on Lesbian Events maybe you would like to explain to us what it was about the one member and his group of friends that got him turned away (and remember, that person at that time was under the impression that he was a lesbian). Maybe the person who told them they weren't welcome was an Oracle of some kind and could sense an aura of Future Man? Honestly, Bulldog. If it happened to one person, it DOES have the potential to happen again.

[BullDog]

Well since you're the authority on Lesbian Events maybe you would like to explain to us what it was about the one member and his group of friends that got him turned away (and remember, that person at that time was under the impression that he was a lesbian). Maybe the person who told them they weren't welcome was an Oracle of some kind and could sense an aura of Future Man? Honestly, Bulldog. If it happened to one person, it DOES have the potential to happen again.

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

[turasultana]

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.


seriously, that's your response? A question was asked -how can you know you wouldn't be turned away as a masculine looking person if another masculine looking person WAS turned away in the past? The point being, they may not care if YOU see yourself as a lesbian, THEY may see you as a masculine person and turn you away regardless.

[BullDog]

seriously, that's your response? A question was asked -how can you know you wouldn't be turned away as a masculine looking person if another masculine looking person WAS turned away in the past? The point being, they may not care if YOU see yourself as a lesbian, THEY may see you as a masculine person and turn you away regardless.

I don't plan on going on an Olivia Cruise anytime soon. If I did it would never cross my mind that I would be turned away. If someone wants to pay for transportation to the ship and pay for my ticket I will put it to the test.

I already said I think the way Blaze was treated was rude. Blaze was part of a group of friends that included at least one FTM that was turned away. I don't think they should have been treated rudely.

I have been a lesbian for over 30 years and also I am butch. My experience DOES tell me where I am or am not welcome. Have I ever had a lesbian been rude to me? Yes. I have also have straight people be rude to me, bisexuals, transpeople, genderqueer people, etc etc. I've had many a gay male waiter be very patronizing and sexist to me at gay male owned restaurants. I could go on. Most people I encounter- whatever their gender and sexual orientation may be- are nice and treat me well.

I really don't care if people want to go on an Olivia Cruise or not. It's not on my short list.

[Medusa]

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

Bulldog,

Respectfully, this is very frustrating to read. This issue is SO much bigger than a polar "Lesbian" versus "Non Lesbian" identity-centric struggle but it often seems to boil down to that with you. I'm trying to be super fair about remembering all of discussions that we have been involved in both together and peripherally where the discussion has felt very centered on you wanting your identity respected and not the actual issue that is being discussed. I get that this is a part of the discussion, the respect for identities and how booking cruises on Olivia cruiselines revolves around that, but it bothers me that you can not see the oppression that Blaze and his friends endured.

When you said that how Blaze was treated was "rude", I did a serious recoil. Not because I think you're a big, giant asshole (I don't) but because you would characterize what happened to Blaze as "rude" and not marginalizing, silencing. oppressive, sexist, or any other words that don't feel like "there, there, dear". Can you see that oppression? Can you see it when it happens to someone else?

Blaze wasn't treated "rudely". Blaze was thrown off of a paid vacation with a group of friends and left standing at the docks.
I would personally characterize that as dehumanizing. The really sad thing is that it was done by our own.

I dunno. Maybe Im getting too hung up on the verbiage. Im trying to think of how you might react if we booked a cruise on a cruiseline that had sent a message like "We have had Lesbians come on our vacation before but you will find that your presence is upsetting to our guests who are trying to have a Queer vacation" and then had someone give a personal narrative about how the Queer vacation group left them standing on the docks because they were "too Lesbian" and someone said "they were treated rudely".

I suspect that we might be having a conversation about Lesbians being excluded and how Lesbophobic that was.

Either way, good discussion all around.

[BullDog]

Bulldog,

Respectfully, this is very frustrating to read. This issue is SO much bigger than a polar "Lesbian" versus "Non Lesbian" identity-centric struggle but it often seems to boil down to that with you. I'm trying to be super fair about remembering all of discussions that we have been involved in both together and peripherally where the discussion has felt very centered on you wanting your identity respected and not the actual issue that is being discussed. I get that this is a part of the discussion, the respect for identities and how booking cruises on Olivia cruiselines revolves around that, but it bothers me that you can not see the oppression that Blaze and his friends endured.

When you said that how Blaze was treated was "rude", I did a serious recoil. Not because I think you're a big, giant asshole (I don't) but because you would characterize what happened to Blaze as "rude" and not marginalizing, silencing. oppressive, sexist, or any other words that don't feel like "there, there, dear". Can you see that oppression? Can you see it when it happens to someone else?

Blaze wasn't treated "rudely". Blaze was thrown off of a paid vacation with a group of friends and left standing at the docks.
I would personally characterize that as dehumanizing. The really sad thing is that it was done by our own.

I dunno. Maybe Im getting too hung up on the verbiage. Im trying to think of how you might react if we booked a cruise on a cruiseline that had sent a message like "We have had Lesbians come on our vacation before but you will find that your presence is upsetting to our guests who are trying to have a Queer vacation" and then had someone give a personal narrative about how the Queer vacation group left them standing on the docks because they were "too Lesbian" and someone said "they were treated rudely".

I suspect that we might be having a conversation about Lesbians being excluded and how Lesbophobic that was.

Either way, good discussion all around.

No this is not about lesbian vs non-lesbian for me and that isn't what things boil down to for me often and that really ticks me off that you characterize me that way. That's a really strong and negative thing to say about me.

I wasn't minimizing Blaze and his friends experience at all. Sorry if rude was an inappropriate word choice.

People are saying very inaccurate things about lesbians and saying butches wouldn't be welcome on the cruise. I am a butch lesbian and my 30 years of experience does account for something.

Olivia is one of the oldest and most successful lesbian businesses ever. If people don't like who they target their business to that is their choice. I agree that cruises are going to be targeting the more affluent since they are the ones who can afford to go on cruises. I also said right off the bat that a lesbian cruise line would be an inappropriate venue for a butch femme gathering.

[betenoire]

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

Oh, I'm sorry! Did the bisexual upset you by asking a legitimate question? I wasn't claiming to be an authority, but you already know that. You DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION to make me feel like I can't participate in a discussion about a fucking cruise line because I'm not a Lesbian. So you can go ahead and knock that off right now.

She went on to explain that because there were more butch wemon and not enough woman-woman, it would be best if we booked for another cruise at a later time.

So Bulldog take heart! Provided that the cruise line meets their "woman-woman" quota you will be allowed on board! Yippie!

I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

More encouragement! You might be allowed to get on the ship, Bulldog. But they might treat you like shit once you're there.

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

[BullDog]

Oh, I'm sorry! Did the bisexual upset you by asking a legitimate question? I wasn't claiming to be an authority, but you already know that. You DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION to make me feel like I can't participate in a discussion about a fucking cruise line because I'm not a Lesbian. So you can go ahead and knock that off right now.



So Bulldog take heart! Provided that the cruise line meets their "woman-woman" quota you will be allowed on board! Yippie!



More encouragement! You might be allowed to get on the ship, Bulldog. But they might treat you like shit once you're there.

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

I said the way Blaze and his friends were treated was wrong several times. How many times do I have to say to qualify as being outraged. I never said it was ok and I'm not defending the cruise line. The cruise line targets lesbians.

I also never said you couldn't participate in a discussion. Where the hell did you come up with that.

[Medusa]

Bully,
I really didn't read people "saying inaccurate things about Lesbians", I read people talking about Olivia Cruises. I'll agree that Olivia is a very successful business but I'm of the mind that success doesn't always equal "good" (see Sarah Palin for example *snort*). I think in this case, I'm irritated because I feel like we are about to do that whole "Lesbians have never done anything bad/racist/classist/separatist in the entire history of the known universe and anyone who says otherwise is a Lesbophobe" discussion that makes all of our eyeballs bleed.

I'm seriously not trying to tick you off, nor am I trying to characterize you in a negative way. I'd like to understand you better.

a



No this is not about lesbian vs non-lesbian for me and that isn't what things boil down to for me often and that really ticks me off that you characterize me that way. That's a really strong and negative thing to say about me.

I wasn't minimizing Blaze and his friends experience at all. Sorry if rude was an inappropriate word choice.

People are saying very inaccurate things about lesbians and saying butches wouldn't be welcome on the cruise. I am a butch lesbian and my 30 years of experience does account for something.

Olivia is one of the oldest and most successful lesbian businesses ever. If people don't like who they target their business to that is their choice. I agree that cruises are going to be targeting the more affluent since they are the ones who can afford to go on cruises. I also said right off the bat that a lesbian cruise line would be an inappropriate venue for a butch femme gathering.

[betenoire]

I also never said you couldn't participate in a discussion. Where the hell did you come up with that.

Right here:

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

If you weren't trying to shut the evil non lesbian down - what WERE you trying to accomplish, exactly?

Anyway, because I like Medusa (and ONLY because I like Medusa) I am going to just completely ignore you now.

[BullDog]

Bully,
I really didn't read people "saying inaccurate things about Lesbians", I read people talking about Olivia Cruises. I'll agree that Olivia is a very successful business but I'm of the mind that success doesn't always equal "good" (see Sarah Palin for example *snort*). I think in this case, I'm irritated because I feel like we are about to do that whole "Lesbians have never done anything bad/racist/classist/separatist in the entire history of the known universe and anyone who says otherwise is a Lesbophobe" discussion that makes all of our eyeballs bleed.

I'm seriously not trying to tick you off, nor am I trying to characterize you in a negative way. I'd like to understand you better.

a

I have never said or implied anything even remotely close regarding the part of what you said in bold. I feel that is a huge exaggeration and has nothing to do with anything I have said. I have never said lesbians can do no wrong or that Olivia Cruises is perfect. I also haven't charged anyone with being a lesbophobe in this conversation.

I don't think ANYONE should be treated badly at their docks. Some of the communication coming from higher ups is also troubling. Then there was a statement from I believe their Vice President on another butch femme website saying something completely different. That came after someone on another website had the "brilliant" idea of trying to hold a butch femme gathering on a lesbian cruise ship.

[BullDog]

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

[The_Lady_Snow]

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME


I am hurt, so I am going to be honest with you like I have been for years on these online sites.

&^%$ *&%~~~ *I* have never treated you with any kind of disrespect, matter of fucking fact I have been on threads with you defending and speaking up against and with you when it has come to your gender, identity and all else. *I* am a member of your community and I have never treated you in such a matter and how dare you do a sweeping generalization like this.

Fuck that man, that was a shitty statement you made.

[Greyson]

That came after someone on another website had the "brilliant" idea of trying to hold a butch femme gathering on a lesbian cruise ship.

I have been following this thread and trying to stay somewhat quiet to hopefully allow a bit of critical analysis to happen in my processing of the posted information. I am getting stuck on the above. To me it implices that butch femmes are separated out and not part of the Lesbian community. Am I interpretting this correctly? Is this the belief of Olivia Cruises that Butch and Femme women are not lesbians? I know most of us in this community understand the need to respect one's self identity but unless Olivia screens, questions every "masculine" appearing and/or acting, how is it determined if they are a "Lesbian" or not?

My final question for this post, at this point in the evolution of the G&L, L&G, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA and now LGBTQQIA community, should it really matter how "others" may I.D. us, gender us?

[BullDog]

I am hurt, so I am going to be honest with you like I have been for years on these online sites.

&^%$ *&%~~~ *I* have never treated you with any kind of disrespect, matter of fucking fact I have been on threads with you defending and speaking up against and with you when it has come to your gender, identity and all else. *I* am a member of your community and I have never treated you in such a matter and how dare you do a sweeping generalization like this.

Fuck that man, that was a shitty statement you made.

I said the worst I have been treated as a butch happens on butch femme online communities and it happens over and over. I did not say 100% of people treat me that way or that it happens 100% of the time. It happens OFTEN.

[BullDog]

I have been following this thread and trying to stay somewhat quiet to hopefully allow a bit of critical analysis to happen in my processing of the posted information. I am getting stuck on the above. To me it implices that butch femmes are separated out and not part of the Lesbian community. Am I interpretting this correctly? Is this the belief of Olivia Cruises that Butch and Femme women are not lesbians? I know most of us in this community understand the need to respect one's self identity but unless Olivia screens, questions every "masculine" appearing and/or acting, how is it determined if they are a "Lesbian" or not?

My final question for this post, at this point in the evolution of the G&L, L&G, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA and now LGBTQQIA community, should it really matter how "others" may I.D. us, gender us?

Not everyone in the butch femme community is a lesbian. That's why I don't think it's a smart idea to have a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise. Lots of butches and femmes are lesbians, not all are. Many members of the butch femme community are trans people but not all are. Therefore I don't think holding a butch femme event in a venue for trans people would be appropriate either.

[Greyson]

Not everyone in the butch femme community is a lesbian. That's why I don't think it's a smart idea to have a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise. Lots of butches and femmes are lesbians, not all are. Many members of the butch femme community are trans people but not all are. Therefore I don't think holding a butch femme event in a venue for trans people would be appropriate either.


Bully, I get that not all in the Butch-Femme, Femme-Butch Community identify as Lesbians. What I don't understand clearly is how does Olivia Cruises decide if one is a Lesbian or not? What if you are masculine appearing, and/or acting? Does this automatically put you outside the definition of Lesbian? How does Olivia and/or their clients make such a determination?

To me it is similar to how light or dark is your skin color. That may offend some this comparison but I am a POC and have also experienced oppression based on skin tone, color and it feels very much the same way. Kicked out, judged harshly based on outward appearance. Forget what is on the inside and one's actions.

[BullDog]

Bully, I get that not all in the Butch-Femme, Femme-Butch Community identify as Lesbians. What I don't understand clearly is how does Olivia Cruises decide if one is a Lesbian or not? What if you are masculine appearing, and/or acting? Does this automatically put you outside the definition of Lesbian? How does Olivia and/or their clients make such a determination?

To me it is similar to how light or dark is your skin color. That may offend some this comparison but I am a POC and have also experienced oppression based on skin tone, color.

Sorry Greyson, I honestly am not following. Butches and other females with masculine appearances who do not identify as butches go on Olivia Cruises all the time.

It was a butch femme website owner who decided to hold a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise ship, knowing that not everyone identifies as a lesbian.

[Greyson]

Sorry Greyson, I honestly am not following. Butches and other females with masculine appearances who do not identify as butches go on Olivia Cruises all the time.

It was a butch femme website owner who decided to hold a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise ship, knowing that not everyone identifies as a lesbian.


Bully thanks for responding. I do believe you are trying to give me a genuine response and I also think some of the communication going on here is just missing one anothers points.

That being said, I am not convinced that it is the site owners responsibility to verify and/or divulge the self identity of each person from that site. (Believe me, this is not a based on my like or dislike of the owner.) I just think it is the responsiblity of each individual to spend some time thinking about who they are. Why does each individual identify the way that they do? Then it is a responsible aciton to try and give the same respect, that each person with their self defined identity would like to recieve from all others.

Yes, this may sound to simplistic but at some point the LGBTQI community has got to understand that for much of our community we share a similar historical context in many parts of the world.

[BullDog]

Bully thanks for responding. I do believe you are trying to give me a genuine response and I also think some of the communication going on here is just missing one anothers points.

That being said, I am not convinced that it is the site owners responsibility to verify and/or divulge the self identity of each person from that site. (Believe me, this is not a based on my like or dislike of the owner.) I just think it is the responsiblity of each individual to spend some time thinking about who they are. Why does each individual identify the way that they do? Then it is a responsible aciton to try and give the same respect, that each person with their self defined identity would like to recieve from all others.

Yes, this may sound to simplistic but at some point the LGBTQI community has got to understand that for much of our community we share a similar historical context in many parts of the world.

I do agree it's not the responsibility of a site owner to divulge the identities of everyone, however I don't know why someone planning a butch femme event would book a cruise on a lesbian cruise ship. If there was a cruise planned for trans people I don't think it would be appropriate for me to go as part of a butch femme party on board because I would feel I was intruding on trans people's space who were expecting to go on a cruise with other trans people. A ship is kind of different than say a hotel.

I think the Olivia Cruise line staff needs a lot of training on gender identities and issues for sure. I also understand many have connections to the lesbian community who themselves are not lesbian and do want to participate in lesbian events at times and I do think that's great. I do also support woman's only space. So how this all gets resolved is hard to say but I do think you make good points.

Thank you for the dialogue Greyson. I do always enjoy conversing with you.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I said the worst I have been treated as a butch happens on butch femme online communities and it happens over and over. I did not say 100% of people treat me that way or that it happens 100% of the time. It happens OFTEN.


Originally Posted by BullDog http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=187939#post187939)
You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NO this is what you said... You made a sweeping generalization and that is fucking unfair and wrong and rude. OH and unjust!!

Sad but true, those were *your* words.

Like I said earlier any fucking time trans issues come about or are talked about the same shit happens and the whole divisive us vs them shit starts.

It's ridiculous at this point and oh so telling.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by BullDog http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=187939#post187939)
You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NO this is what you said... You made a sweeping generalization and that is fucking unfair and wrong and rude. OH and unjust!!

Sad but true, those were *your* words.

Like I said earlier any fucking time trans issues come about or are talked about the same shit happens and the whole divisive us vs them shit starts.

It's ridiculous at this point and oh so telling.

I really am sick of how I get treated. So you can give me the thumbs down if you want. I have been treated like shit in this thread for no good reason.

I thought the convo was getting back on track.

Thanks again Greyson for the convo.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I really am sick of how I get treated. So you can give me the thumbs down if you want. I have been treated like shit in this thread for no good reason.

I thought the convo was getting back on track.

Thanks again Greyson for the convo.


Jesus Christ.

How are you being treated like shit? I don't get how each time this particular topic comes up you come off as the wounded one I really don't. Yet you can say hurtful things.

I find that to be odd and well unbalanced.

The reality is, in my experience with Olivia and dealing with their customer service, they DO NOT want trans folks there. Awesome!! It's their business but my politics will not allow and where I stand with queer issues will also not allow this kind of discrimination.

That's me.

The end. How you can't see that it's shitty of gay folk to do to eachother I don't know.

I won't be back for a bit so I am not ignoring you if I don't post but pineapple poi got my attention.

[Kobi]

Sometimes I wonder if I am on the same planet as some of the rest of you. :canoworms:

Olivia is a travel agency. It charters boats for specific purposes. The crew comes with the boat. The crew are not employees of Olivia. It books resorts for certain groups. The resort provides the staffing, not Olivia. Is it possible people who have encountered issues might not have been dealing with Olivia personnel? I dont know, do you?

Olivia might like to cater to a certain clientel in our community. I dont see anything like that in writing but the cost might indicate it.

Olivia does say they cater to women and particularly lesbians. It is their right to do so. If one have a problem with this, its ok but others dont have a problem with it. Dont like the policy, dont use the cruise line.

I, for one, do not see what the issue is about Olivias response saying trans persons may encounter problems. First of all, I dont know what exactly was asked in the first place. How one phrases a question will usually elicit the response one is looking for. It seemed to me, from the response, a question was asked about trans persons on their lesbian cruises. Nowhere in the response did I see trans persons are not allowed or welcomed. What I saw was a clear statement that indicated at some point, some trans persons did encounter problems with some of the other vacationers. Is it reasonable to expect a tour to police 1800 passengers? Is it reasonable for people who spent a small fortune to go on a lesbian cruise to be a tad upset? Heck we dont have 1800 members yet and look at some of the stuff we go thru.

I dont understand how one would not pursue getting their money back if they were stranded at the dock for the reasons they indicated. I suspect a simple complaint to the better business bureau and the local newspapers consumer affairs people would have resulted in a quick refund. Not pursuing this makes me wonder what actually happened at the dock.

Medusa, I applaud you for being mindful of YOUR clientel and for being thougtful as to appropriate locations and such to ensure a good outcome for participants.

I do have a problem, however, when you indicate Bull did not show an appropriate amount of outrage at what was said to occur on a dock.
It seems to me, that respecting people, is about respecting commonalities and differences. Not everyone thinks alike, subscribes to the same politics, or responds in the same way. Some are more expressive, some are more controlled. Bull strikes me as a thoughtful but controlled person.

We seem to talk a lot about respecting others but have no problem giving out verbal lashings when people dont think like we do, respond in the way we expect, have the same issues with something as we do, or express outrage in the form we expect. Is that respectful? Is that honoring diversity?

BTW, I just finished watching the movie Speed 2 where a cruise ship runs amok. I think I'll stay on land.

[Gayla]

I really don't understand how a conversation about Olivia's policy of excluding transpeople has turned into yet another thread about Bulldog.

[BullDog]

I really don't understand how a conversation about Olivia's policy of excluding transpeople has turned into yet another thread about Bulldog.

Me either.

[Words]

I really am sick of how I get treated. So you can give me the thumbs down if you want. I have been treated like shit in this thread for no good reason.

I thought the convo was getting back on track.

Thanks again Greyson for the convo.

And here we go again.

WHERE have you been treated like shit BullDog?

See, this is how it goes. You say something. Someone doesn't agree with you. And all of a sudden, we're all guilty of lesbophobia/femaleID'd phobia/BullDogphobia/whatever.

Ugh.

Words

[Toughy]

So 3 different members of this site had two very different experiences on an Olivia Cruise...Blaze and Isadora/citybutch.

Looking around on Olivia's website I see plenty o masculine looking lesbians.

The dash site is having a Cruise on Olivia. The confrontation over that on that website has been moved over here. The management and the customer service folks from Olivia have made conflicting statements (out of both sides of their mouth) about who is and is not welcome on an Olivia Cruise. Not that I give two shits, however I do agree with Bully that holding a b/f/t website gathering on a lesbian cruise just plain makes no sense at all. However it certainly is within their right to do so.

What troubles me is we have allowed that animosity to pit us against each other HERE. I doubt very seriously Jack and Dusa would hold a gathering for us on a lesbian cruise.

I support Olivia's right to determine who gets on the Cruises, just like I support Mich Fest's right to determine who comes to their women's music festival. That does not mean I would be in attendance, it just means I believe they have right to do so.

It doesn't mean I would not suggest that Olivia might want to re-think their business model and perhaps hold a trans-queer-lesbian cruise once in a while. Maybe they could create more new business for themselves...the number of folks with a grand or two to use for a vacation is dwindling.

[BullDog]

The end. How you can't see that it's shitty of gay folk to do to eachother I don't know.

I do think it's shitty and I said so several times.

[Words]

What troubles me is we have allowed that animosity to pit us against each other HERE. I doubt very seriously Jack and Dusa would hold a gathering for us on a lesbian cruise.

It troubles me as well Toughy.

[Medusa]

I doubt very seriously Jack and Dusa would hold a gathering for us on a lesbian cruise.



We wouldn't :) - But I am considering selling an organ or something so we can buy our own Big Gay Boat, paint it lime green and pink, and sail all over the world having Cabarets every night.

[pisceanstar]

Holy shit! I just read this whole thread and wondering if the OP expected all the lack of direct experience opinions.
Interestingly, I think less than 1% of posts actually related to an experience on an Olivia cruise...not to say that learning about a business' ethical practices is not fruitful for the mind but serious overkill on the "I won't go cause so and so" or "you'd be stopped on the dock cause such and such". The facts are often so simple for a reason...yet emotions interpret them :blink:

[Blaze]

You know, at first I was going to just let this statement slide, but then it started to bother me a tad.
You asked this question Kobi, so I feel obligated to answer it.
I dont understand how one would not pursue getting their money back if they were stranded at the dock for the reasons they indicated. I suspect a simple complaint to the better business bureau and the local newspapers consumer affairs people would have resulted in a quick refund. Not pursuing this makes me wonder what actually happened at the dock.
You have to remember there was 22 of us. And as I had stated in an earlier post;And then tell us that we could reschedule another time??? We were on vacation, we have paid vacation hours, we can't just show up back to work and say, well can't go right now, so I'm going to work now and can you let me have next month off?!!!
We all worked, and we planned this vacation. Some. For example "Me" worked 2 full time jobs and had to get okayed to get my vacation.
Now... We asked for our money back, their response was, we can RESCHEDULE ALL OF YOU on another cruise. Well we paid to go on this one, we couldn't reschedule. We all did call the better business so that makes 44 complaints. They acknowledge our complaints. And put it down on there paper. We could have gotten lawyers or whatever else roads we may have wanted to take, but then again, we all worked. So if it's our loss, then yes, it was. My concern was not about the money anymore. It was about how we were treated. Was there any Drama involved? NO, we are respectful people, we questioned, we got their answers, and that. Is that. No secrets, no extra hate, we had enough of that. So before presuming otherwise. Ask it from the person who stated this, not hint and post. So basically you don't have to wonder now.
This was just my feelings, and what happened on "Our" experience. Not a debate about what we did wrong or right.
Thanks, Blaze

[citybutch]

Sounds like fun to me!

We wouldn't :) - But I am considering selling an organ or something so we can buy our own Big Gay Boat, paint it lime green and pink, and sail all over the world having Cabarets every night.

[citybutch]

OMG! Usually they avoid the waves days ahead of time! YIKES!

Aside from the whole issue of what Olivia does or does not do?
I have to admit I am not even a smidge interested in going on a cruise. (cruising in the queer sense is not off the list though).

Here is one of the reasons for my disdain:

Cso7NcQKBww

[SuperFemme]

If you harm my brothers and sisters, I can not in good conscience condone that.

VL4ei-RE3Nc

[Billy]

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.


LOL , you are something else :) But I quess you are the authority of Lesbians cause you have been one for 30 years ..Next time I have a guestion about Lesbians I sure will come find you ......:| Until then I would not book a cruise on Olivia Cruises anytime soon ..:) Just sayin

[Billy]

We wouldn't :) - But I am considering selling an organ or something so we can buy our own Big Gay Boat, paint it lime green and pink, and sail all over the world having Cabarets every night.

Now that sounds like fun ! Wooooooooooooooooo !

[Kobi]

Blaze,
Thank you for the clarification. One can see how upsetting this would be even so many years after the incident occured.

For clarification, Olivia is not a member of the BBB. When businesses are not members, complaints are not easily resolved using this avenue.

For future reference for anyone who might find themselves with travel cancellations for any number of reasons - complaints to the attorney general in the state where the offending party is licensed is always an option. It is also an option, if you charge the trip to a credit card, to challenge the charges. Travel insurance is always a good idea and Olivia does provide this.

Also helps to check the fine print too i.e. I wonder if Olivia might have a disclaimer somewhere which allows them to refuse entry for any number of reasons. Checking cancellation policies is a good idea as well. Some places will not refund or offer you an alternative date.

It was nice to see people with direct experience on the cruises share their experiences with us.

I'm still keeping my feel on land tho.



You know, at first I was going to just let this statement slide, but then it started to bother me a tad.
You asked this question Kobi, so I feel obligated to answer it.
I dont understand how one would not pursue getting their money back if they were stranded at the dock for the reasons they indicated. I suspect a simple complaint to the better business bureau and the local newspapers consumer affairs people would have resulted in a quick refund. Not pursuing this makes me wonder what actually happened at the dock.
You have to remember there was 22 of us. And as I had stated in an earlier post;And then tell us that we could reschedule another time??? We were on vacation, we have paid vacation hours, we can't just show up back to work and say, well can't go right now, so I'm going to work now and can you let me have next month off?!!!
We all worked, and we planned this vacation. Some. For example "Me" worked 2 full time jobs and had to get okayed to get my vacation.
Now... We asked for our money back, their response was, we can RESCHEDULE ALL OF YOU on another cruise. Well we paid to go on this one, we couldn't reschedule. We all did call the better business so that makes 44 complaints. They acknowledge our complaints. And put it down on there paper. We could have gotten lawyers or whatever else roads we may have wanted to take, but then again, we all worked. So if it's our loss, then yes, it was. My concern was not about the money anymore. It was about how we were treated. Was there any Drama involved? NO, we are respectful people, we questioned, we got their answers, and that. Is that. No secrets, no extra hate, we had enough of that. So before presuming otherwise. Ask it from the person who stated this, not hint and post. So basically you don't have to wonder now.
This was just my feelings, and what happened on "Our" experience. Not a debate about what we did wrong or right.
Thanks, Blaze

[SuperFemme]

LOL , you are something else :) But I quess you are the authority of Lesbians cause you have been one for 30 years ..Next time I have a guestion about Lesbians I sure will come find you ......:| Until then I would not book a cruise on Olivia Cruises anytime soon ..:) Just sayin

Well I am a big fat Lesbian and I wouldn't book either.
To *me* the act of turning away a butch woman or an MTF (which means she is a woman) is not the act of a loving community.

Community means all of us (to me).

Olivia Cruiselines must not put a lot of faith in Lesbians if they are going to speak for the faceless masses and deem them as "upset" by....what? I don't even know. I also feel like any ftm folk wanting to go on this kind of cruise is not living steath as a male full time, but rather still very connected to the community that was their home for so many years,.

I have a super hard time separating Lesbian from Queer. Trans from Queer. Gay from Queer. To me it's all of us for each other. Not all of us against each other.

I cannot begin to examine what Blaze must have felt as a Lesbian on the dock that day, being refused entry. I close my eyes and try to visualize myself there, and the end result is only tears. That act of exclusion of a Lesbian is unconscionable.

[Toughy]

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

[Toughy]

Well I am a big fat Lesbian and I wouldn't book either.
To *me* the act of turning away a butch woman or an MTF (which means she is a woman) is not the act of a loving community.

Community means all of us (to me).

Olivia Cruiselines must not put a lot of faith in Lesbians if they are going to speak for the faceless masses and deem them as "upset" by....what? I don't even know. I also feel like any ftm folk wanting to go on this kind of cruise is not living steath as a male full time, but rather still very connected to the community that was their home for so many years,.

I have a super hard time separating Lesbian from Queer. Trans from Queer. Gay from Queer. To me it's all of us for each other. Not all of us against each other.

I cannot begin to examine what Blaze must have felt as a Lesbian on the dock that day, being refused entry. I close my eyes and try to visualize myself there, and the end result is only tears. That act of exclusion of a Lesbian is unconscionable.

Olivia is NOT a community. It's a business that provides travel services.....cruises.....targeted toward lesbians with disposable income. Good grief. Lets stop confusing business and community. I promise they understand the demographics of their target consumers. Sometimes lesbians just want to be with lesbians.

[Billy]

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

I didn't make fun of Bully .....And there where alot more folks on here having the same issue I was , trying to get the point across , so if you want to call Me out and look past the others , that is your choice and I have know problem with that ...

[The_Lady_Snow]

I must of misread somewhere along the lines but I am pretty sure this all blew up cause someone said that the opinions were lesbianphobic. Till Organic's post which was moderated, no one had..

hmmm.

Before that, it was a discussion with a whole lot of opinions SOME people did not like them and foudn them to be lesbianphobic .

True story..

:eatinghersheybar:

[SuperFemme]

Olivia is NOT a community. It's a business that provides travel services.....cruises.....targeted toward lesbians with disposable income. Good grief. Lets stop confusing business and community. I promise they understand the demographics of their target consumers. Sometimes lesbians just want to be with lesbians.

as a lesbian, i get to call them my community. :)
i'm ok with that and stand by it.

[Toughy]

as a lesbian, i get to call them my community. :)
i'm ok with that and stand by it.

I'm not sure how any for-profit business is part of any community other than the business community. Providing services for a fee and calling that service community makes no sense. My community doesn't make me pay lots of money to participate.

Could you clarify how that works?

[Strappie]

I'm not sure how any for-profit business is part of any community other than the business community. Providing services for a fee and calling that service community makes no sense. My community doesn't make me pay lots of money to participate.

Could you clarify how that works?

Lets try this... I pay to get into lesbian Events sometimes upwards of $100. Now if that isn't "paying" for a service to a lesbian event then hmm I don't know what to call it. To me that doesn't make it right or wrong. If you like the services here or there and want to be able to do more things.. Don't you pay for that upgrade? I went to the Bash in Vegas.. I payed to be apart of their services/events. I went to the Reunion in Little Rock and yes I too paid for the Event. That cost me money to be apart of a COMMUNITY I love so very much. I would do it over and over again.

[BullDog]

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

Thanks Toughy. I was thinking the same thing.

I spent a long time before I even posted in this thread trying to understand what was going on. I then spent a lot of time on my initial post trying to cover the issue and ask a few genuine questions.

Then when Snow pointed out there was a lot of upset that I wasn't up to speed on I went over to the other channel to try and figure things out. It took me at least a half an hour to even find the thread and another half hour to read the thread in its entirety. I saw the legitimate concerns raised over there. I also saw Transmen over there- who also are members of this community- saying they fully support lesbians having cruises but if there is going to be a butch femme event they do feel they have a right to be welcome. I completely agreed. I also saw those raising concerns being called liars and their integrity questioned.

Anyway, I spent a lot of time reading up to understand the issues and have asked genuine questions and tried to understand. I haven't called anyone any names, hurled any insults or accused anyone of anything. I have gotten a lot of nasty insults and been told I am engaging in us vs them when there isn't a shred of evidence of that in any of my posts.

Wow, I'm so glad I have spent so much of my time trying to understand only to be insulted, accused and made fun of.

[waxnrope]

:deadhorse: just saying ...

[Gayla]

BullDog - You may not see that you've said anything that anyone could take negatively, and I may have even almost agreed with that on some level, until the little snarky line at the end of your post.

You made a comment implying that non-lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. You made a comment about how the thread was off topic and we were talking about things we shouldn't be discussing (which is something you do in a lot of the threads you post in). You made comments about how you were insulted and called names and implied that you had somehow become a victim in this.

I've seen you do, and say, most of these things in other threads that became heated at some point. It's obvious that you have a different interpretation of things than many of us here. But rather than agree to disagree and continue the discussion, these thread turn into Bully vs. almost everyone else and end up nothing more than a bunch of passive aggressive snark being tossed back and forth until everyone loses interest and just goes away.

I'm really tired of watching good threads die.

[BullDog]

BullDog - You may not see that you've said anything that anyone could take negatively, and I may have even almost agreed with that on some level, until the little snarky line at the end of your post.

You made a comment implying that non-lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. You made a comment about how the thread was off topic and we were talking about things we shouldn't be discussing (which is something you do in a lot of the threads you post in). You made comments about how you were insulted and called names and implied that you had somehow become a victim in this.

I've seen you do, and say, most of these things in other threads that became heated at some point. It's obvious that you have a different interpretation of things than many of us here. But rather than agree to disagree and continue the discussion, these thread turn into Bully vs. almost everyone else and end up nothing more than a bunch of passive aggressive snark being tossed back and forth until everyone loses interest and just goes away.

I'm really tired of watching good threads die.

You are seriously accusing me of snark?

I never said non lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. People were telling me- whose been a lesbian for over 30 years- that I wouldn't be welcome on a lesbian cruise. I find that preposterous based on my experience and then non lesbians get nasty and mock me. That is what I was referring to when I said non lesbians seem to now think they are the experts.

The only thing I said was off topic was when people were hurling nasty comments at me- that adds nothing to a conversation.

Passive aggressive snark? Really? Not that you would do anything like that- like keep referring to me in the Zombie thread.

I am not a victim. I am being treated like shit for no good reason. I've put in the time to try and understand. That is apparent to some people. I have better things to do with my time than continue to be insulted.

[Toughy]

Lets try this... I pay to get into lesbian Events sometimes upwards of $100. Now if that isn't "paying" for a service to a lesbian event then hmm I don't know what to call it. To me that doesn't make it right or wrong. If you like the services here or there and want to be able to do more things.. Don't you pay for that upgrade? I went to the Bash in Vegas.. I payed to be apart of their services/events. I went to the Reunion in Little Rock and yes I too paid for the Event. That cost me money to be apart of a COMMUNITY I love so very much. I would do it over and over again.

Let me try this again. Olivia is a business with a business model that targets part of the greater LGBTQQI community. That does not make Olivia a community. The people who utilize Olivia's services may certainly be a community. A business is not a community.....like-minded individuals may and can create a community.

A business can and will close for lack of money. Communities exist without the presence of money.

[Billy]

Let me try this again. Olivia is a business with a business model that targets part of the greater LGBTQQI community. That does not make Olivia a community. The people who utilize Olivia's services may certainly be a community. A business is not a community.....like-minded individuals may and can create a community.

A business can and will close for lack of money. Communities exist without the presence of money.

I understand what strappie is saying and I understand what Toughy is ..And we can keep repeating the same thing over and over ...But some folks view things different then others ..What difference does it make if they want to call it community or not that is their individual view which happens to be different from yours ...I don't like to come in these threads for this very thing that is going on ..My words where changed around to suit the person reading My posts , now I am yet put into ANOTHER group non-lesbian WTF is next ..If I embarrass you PLEASE put Me on ignore I really don't care ..My point of view is JUST as important as yours ...

My whole point on this thread was to say that Olivia cruises HAS a issue with folks that are very masculine LOOKING ...very simple Had NOTHING to do with being a follower , had NOTHING to
do with how long one has been a Lesbian , HAD nothing to do with OTHER Lesbian events...YES some butches have been on one of these cruises , but something has changed over the years in their policy and it seems to offend some Lesbians who take their cruises ...I will say this again I am all for having Lesbian ONLY events , I understand that , have NO problem with it ...This site is not JUST for Lesbians , if it was I would not be here ..

[SuperFemme]

I'm not sure how any for-profit business is part of any community other than the business community. Providing services for a fee and calling that service community makes no sense. My community doesn't make me pay lots of money to participate.

Could you clarify how that works?


you need to stop making me cry Toughy. :(

I understand what a business is, I worked in corporate America for many many years. I understand what you're saying. What I am saying is this: The people that are the faces of Queer/Lesbian businesses ARE my community - my sisters and brothers in the world.

When I frequent Hispanic owned businesses, and a Hispanic gives me flack for my light skin - I am hurt by my own.

So as a Lesbian, being treated like shit under the guise of "it's a business" doesn't fly for me. What I am speaking to here is what happened to Blaze, who was a Lesbian turned away from a Lesbian business for.....what? Left standing on the docks mind you.

I also understand that many people have had great experiences on the Olivia cruiseline. Aboard a ship full of their community, no?

So I understand what you are saying, I do. I'm just coming from a different place.

[IrishGrrl]

Olivia is NOT a community. It's a business that provides travel services.....cruises.....targeted toward lesbians with disposable income. Good grief. Lets stop confusing business and community. I promise they understand the demographics of their target consumers. Sometimes lesbians just want to be with lesbians.

Business and community get confused quite often. I think that's because some business' help facilitate community for many of us, so we tend to get it confused.
For instance. The dash site was/is a business. Many people dont agree with that, never did. But I think it became quite obvious in the last two years.
What I cant stand, is a business claiming to be "community" when clearly it is not. I see nothing wrong with being a business, but say so. Community does not behave like a business, and vice versa.

Olivia cruises are a business who facilitates community. They are being specific to which community they cater to.

I think where they are going wrong is trying to dictate who and who is not a lesbian. If they want to cater to a certain demographic they need to be more specific because the term lesbian does not just apply to feminine looking women who eat pussy.

[The_Lady_Snow]

The conception of this thread started out peaceful, mind you we all threw it off course but the conversation was flowing pretty smoothly till these posts that have * on them.

**Yeah I would still book with them just because I don't follow a group of people of what they did or don't do. **

Some people replied some did not but the convo kept going then again another post suggesting that a whole other convo was happening

**Mountain Star I will not be able to go on the Lesbian cruise this October for various reasons unfortunately. I would love to go in future. As a lesbian I enjoy lesbian events and gatherings.
Since this thread is about a lesbian gathering perhaps it could be moved to the "Lesbian Zone" so wimmin can discuss the cruise without wading through pages of lesbophobia.**

Some folks replied some did not but the convo kept going smoothly and yet AGAIN :

***I certainly did not intend to participate in an incendiary manner "rally the troops" or shit-stir. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suggested that posting about a lesbian event in the lesbian zone might decrease the dozens of "oh hell no I'm not going- I'm not a lesbian" posts, which yes, feel phobic to me. I will PM you on the matter and hopefully make myself clearer. I'm not sure why my suggestion warrants such seemingly harsh moderation but I would like to understand so I can avoid being singled out in such a manner in future. Thank you for your patience.**

Then we had more convo with some replies to this, a lil administration then I opened my mouth and asked this

**I would like to clarify that nowhere in my post did I come off with an intent to be anti lesbian.

Matter of fact lesbian was not even in my post.

So since you are making sweeping generalizations, I would like to say that I would not attend Olivia Cruises NOT because they cater to lesbians, but because I could not comfortably go with the person I am with, reason being..

They are not trans friendly. **

More conversation happened then another member posted the proof that Olivia had said this:

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -

Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM.

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2.



Thank you,



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jeri Umble
sr. director, customer care


olivia
434 brannan street
san francisco ca 94107

415.962.5700 tel
415.962-5713 fax

feel free
www.olivia.com (http://www.olivia.com)

Then all that convo led to these views:

**I can see all the forms of phobias, and inclusion/exclusion and probably a few isms as well.

What I cant seem to get passed is ....what do you mean I am stuck on a huge ship with thousands of people I dont know in the middle of nowhere for a week? :seeingstars: Not even dealing with the poo issue....thanks Jack.

Maybe a harbor cruise or a day sailing trip hugging the coast? Anyone? **

Which then turned into everyone was picking friends cause of who went where:

**It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya? **


So *I* just had to ask wtf and I did

**This is kinda ridiculous, to assume that people are posting their opinions so that all their friends follow like sheeple and not go on a vacation if that is what they wanted to do.

If (insert name) decided tomorrow that she was going on and Olivia Cruise, I would be like :|

I would more than likely talk to her about it, and our friendship would change since she is supporting a place I do not for it's policies. I don't know to what degree it would change but I am pretty positive that I would not just kick her to the curb without having some kind of dialogue.


Once again I find it odd that you are reading some subliminal message that is saying if pick a side or you are out the club.

Really odd.

:|


PS

Can someone PLEASE point out the phobia, inclusion/exclusion ism's comments?????? PLEASE**


BTW the whole lesbian phobia was never pointed out, but then someone did make a not so nice comment and it got Moderated. So then Bully came in here not sure what was going on I EXPLAINED TWICE why the fall out.

Some people were hurt and still are because well I get some folks have been lesbians for a lot longer than some of us, now this is just me coming from *MY* space

when we say something like this

"I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome."

Really? How dismissing cause how does anyone know what the other posters identity was before they transitioned, does their history get erased and dismissed just because they no longer refer or feel this way or comfortable in that mattress tag?


The kick in the gut

"I love how non lesbians are some how the authority. "

Well I am a non lesbian, this is insulting and once again dismissing and therefore the blow out.

The person who posted this is right.

I am non lesbian, I identified with dyke when I was younger, for reasons that you don't really want to hear because if I do decide to share my experience I am 99.9% sure some people will view it as anti lesbian or lesbian phobic.

That's how the convo turned to shit, it was all fun and fluff in the beginning till people who were called liars, and be littled came in to vent cause of their hurt.

Even one member posted their experience with Olivia which was downright ugly.

But nooooooooooooo even then it looked like Blaze was getting lectured for not calling the BBB, and not checking the fine print, did not matter he was a lesbian at the young age of 22 and that when we are that age we are not as savvy as we are now in our more mature age, even then with Blaze sharing the story, it was like eh it was 8 year ago and well we really don't have the full story, cause well his words were not good enough?

Facts are Mountain Star wanted to see if anyone was going on the cruise, we ALL turned into a thread about how we feel about Olivia due to other things that happened elsewhere, from there well you can basically watch the dominoes fall.

*I* still feel each time trans folk or trans issues are discussed, it somehow turns into.... Everyone is dogging out the lesbians, so not true and frankly I for one am sick of those assumptions so like someone said

I don't know what planet ya'll are living on but I live on one where I don't diss or dismiss any gay, queer, trans, lesbian or anyone that falls in the gender spectrum. PERIOD.

[Toughy]

"I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome."


I entirely and completely agree with the above statement.

Really? How dismissing cause how does anyone know what the other posters identity was before they transitioned, does their history get erased and dismissed just because they no longer refer or feel this way or comfortable in that mattress tag?

Me making my own decisions as a lesbian about where I will feel welcome has SHIT to do with someone else's history. I as a lesbian may feel welcomed in a place another lesbian would not. That has no reflection on another lesbians comfort level.

As to the non-lesbian comment ..........snark/sarcasm ......... something we all do on occasion...it made me snort in that kind of ironic way as ALL snark/sarcasm usually does. The snark is not some special mean I hate you shut the fuck up kind of statement, although apparently it can be taken that way.

I gotta tell ya here. I am/was feeling a bit of lesbophobia starting to happen here in this thread. Not something you can specifically quote, but none-the-less it was hovering in the background. As a lesbian I should be able to say that without having to produce a quote. It's falls in the same category as 'this feels racist, sexist, homophobic', white privilege'.

We highly object when someone who has left all of us with a feeling of racism, however there is no direct quote to produce to prove that. We will call out that racism in a heartbeat, to the bewilderment of the poster. Likely we will never be able to specifically show that poster where the racism exists in what was said.

And sometimes we are wrong (on both sides). And sometimes we are right (on both sides).

I hope anyone who decides to put themselves on a boat with 2000-3000 has a great time. The likelihood of me doing that is about zero. I am not getting trapped on a boat for a week with a bunch of strangers or friends. Besides after Jack's little post about poo and pee and other stuff spewed out of the boats in the open sea...........shaking my head...........

[BullDog]

I don't agree with everything regarding Olivia Cruises and how some people have been treated. However I also think some people have expanded it being a lesbian cruise ship (which wouldn't include males) to saying omg if you are butch or masculine appearing they are going to be horrible to you on their boat if they even let you on and they only want femme looking woman there- which I think is quite the exaggeration. And yes I do wonder what is behind these exaggerated statements.

I'm a lesbian, go to lesbian events all the time and have so for years and years, but people who are not lesbians are telling me what would happen (based purely on conjecture) and I am the one being dismissive?

[waxnrope]

Perhaps it is my piscean nature, a dreamer of that considered utopian space. Yet, without the capacity to see a better world, for all of us, without the vision, we are doomed to sameness. Nothing changes. And, I believe that we each have a responsibility to make or contribute in some way, a better, more just world.

I think of the business owners in the old South who refused service to black people. I heard the same arguments, even after the laws passed to end it. People have a right to have whatever folks they chose in their restaurant, they said. But if we think about this critically, it is NOT about the business. The most compounded effect is upon the person/s refused. It is the suddenly found shame, the loss of dignity, the shearing of a person's or groups self worth. This is not simply a disembodied "thing", a checkbook, or barstool that we are speaking about. We are talking about real people who have feelings and who are part of our community. The Othered community. The community of the marginalized."They" are us. And however we identify, however we situated ourselves in society, IMHO, I believe that we have a responsibility, an ethical one, to care for one another in the manner of SOLIDARIDAD, and from my travels, from my witness, from my convos with my Spanish speaking brothers and sisters, this is more than lip service. It is greater than a word. It means not to simple stand with someone, but to engage from the places of the heart and the spirit.

Like I said, I'm a Pisces and can be accused of engaging in excess fantasy. Then again, there is always hope in a dream. Always a possibility. What do I know?

[Greyson]

Perhaps it is my piscean nature, a dreamer of that considered utopian space. Yet, without the capacity to see a better world, for all of us, without the vision, we are doomed to sameness. Nothing changes. And, I believe that we each have a responsibility to make or contribute in some way, a better, more just world.

I think of the business owners in the old South who refused service to black people. I heard the same arguments, even after the laws passed to end it. People have a right to have whatever folks they chose in their restaurant. But if we think about this critically, it is NOT about the business. The most compounded effect is upon the person/s refused. It is the suddenly found shame, the loss of dignity, the shearing of a person's or groups self worth. This is not simply a disembodied "thing", a chec kbook, or barstool that were speaking about. We are talking about real people who have foe old. elings and who are part of our community. The Othered community. The community of the marginalized."They" are us. And however we identify, however we situated ourselves in society, IMHO, I believe that we have a responsibility, an ethical one, to care for one another in the manner of SOLIDARIDAD, and from my travels, from my witness, from my convos with my Spanish speaking brothers and sisters, this is more than lip service. It is greater than a word. It means not to simple stand with someone, but to engage from the places of the heart and the spirit.

Like I said, I'm a Pisces and can be accused of engaging in excess fantasy. Then again, there is always hope in a dream. Always a possibility. What do I know?


I am a Leo and I share a similar fantasy.

[SuperFemme]

I don't agree with everything regarding Olivia Cruises and how some people have been treated. However I also think some people have expanded it being a lesbian cruise ship (which wouldn't include males) to saying omg if you are butch or masculine appearing they are going to be horrible to you on their boat if they even let you on and they only want femme looking woman there- which I think is quite the exaggeration. And yes I do wonder what is behind these exaggerated statements.

I'm a lesbian, go to lesbian events all the time and have so for years and years, but people who are not lesbians are telling me what would happen (based purely on conjecture) and I am the one being dismissive?

I'm a lesbian and I would have some worry that you would end up treated in the same manner that Blaze was (who was a lesbian at the time this happened). I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

I didn't once get the impression that Olivia Cruises only wants Femmes on their cruises. I did however, get the feeling that they might balk at the ratio of passengers who were butch or masculine looking being the majority.

I think it would be fair to call it conjecture had we not had a member here who lived this experience. Blaze sharing the story took it out of the realm of conjecture into the realm of fact.

Do I think this is going to happen all of the time? No.

Yet the possibility of you - my fellow community member being left standing on the docks gives me great pause.

I would be horrified.

The overuse of the binary makes me cringe. The binary is being challenged in ways that it wasn't when Olivia began doing cruises. I just wish they'd catch up rather than stay mired in the either/or.

Where is the line of delineation? If an mtf has had srs, they ARE a woman and a lesbian if they say so. (I know you disagreed with the turning away of an MTF) so hopefully you'll see my point. Where is the line of delineation when somebody feels that they were born into the wrong body? Does it start the separation at that point? Or when someone takes T? OR when somebody has top surgery? Bottom surgery for FTM's is lacking still in a successful outcome, as opposed to the MTF srs surgeries which fully change ones sex/gender.

So where does the cut-off begin?

I'm not at all against Olivia having woman only space. I am however uncomfortable with the idea that Olivia decides who is woman enough to be in that space.

The fact that I am a Lesbian and married to a trans person puts me in a strange position. It feels like my Lesbian is stripped away often because of who I love. Which is ridiculous. My partners ID has nothing to do with mine, yet as a Lesbian I cannot really participate in a cruise with my peers AND bring along the one I love. That feels shitty.

I am all for Olivia and would never ever judge anyone who went on a vacation with them. Ever. I know they have a right to their policies, however, I find them to be not quite a solid interpretation of said policies.

Who am I to judge? Nobody I guess, just another faceless person.

So in ending, I'd really like to say to you that I feel that the people who are worried you might maybe or maybe not get left at the docks are simply members of your community who stand in solidarity with you (regardless of id) and would just not want you to be treated so horribly. I don't think its a bad thing that people care, yanno? I care. I of course would send all my energy to you having a fabulous outcome, nobody wishes bad treatment on anyone. I would however, stand by your side and fight the good fight with you should you be treated in the manner that Blaze was.

[BullDog]

Thank you for your thoughts and genuine concern SuperFemme. I also do care. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to spend so much time on this.

Thank you again.

[SuperFemme]

Thank you for your thoughts and genuine concern SuperFemme. I also do care. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to spend so much time on this.

Thank you again.

i so know you care, and that matters. (f)

[Strappie]

Toughy,

I have yet to BASH on Olivia... What my whole gripe was over the Thread in the first place is... That X site was NOT thinking clearly of their entire community and there for left out a good major part of people.

I know OLIVIA is a Business and good for them for making it successful!

What my gripe is.. If the Planet did not include our ENTIRE community to an EVENT that they are going to stand to make some money and free advertising then ... WE ALL SHOULD BE INCLUDED and if they don't I WON'T continue my "support" with my $$ membership.

That is what this entire THREAD is about.. NOT whether or not YOU are a LESBIAN ... STR8... BI... TRANS... or any other identity.

Shall we get back on subject.......

Let me try this again. Olivia is a business with a business model that targets part of the greater LGBTQQI community. That does not make Olivia a community. The people who utilize Olivia's services may certainly be a community. A business is not a community.....like-minded individuals may and can create a community.

A business can and will close for lack of money. Communities exist without the presence of money.

[Toughy]

good grief Strappin.............

I already said I thought it was a bad decision for the other site to hold a b/f gathering directed at folks from that website on Olivia Cruises. Did you not read those posts?

I also said dragging crap from the other site over here was troubling to me.

And this thread was started by a femme who is going on the Oct Olivia Cruise and wondered if anyone else was going.

----------------------------

Snow

even then with Blaze sharing the story, it was like eh it was 8 year ago and well we really don't have the full story, cause well his words were not good enough?


First..........please don't put your own spin on my very clear post. I never said Blaze's words were not good enough. You said that. I was clear to say I was NOT implying any such thing.

8 years is a long time. We don't know the entire story of what happened on the dock when Blaze and friends decided to move their vacation party to the boat. We know the parts Blaze shared. As I said.........there is NO, absolutely NO judgment in saying that. It's a simple statement of fact with no charge behind it.

We also have had two b/f couples (where butches showed up to dinner in ties) say they had no problems at all. One couple even won some game show thang in front of all of the lesbians. Do their voices not count?

What that means is what Olivia has said is true......they can't promise everyone is gonna have a good time or not be challenged based on perceived gender or gender presentation. It sucks that sometimes some lesbians act like asshats. It sucks that sometimes some b/f/t folks act like asshats. It sucks that sometime some people act like asshats.

---------------------------------

Folks always have mixed reviews about how they have been treated at any gathering. I could tell you stories of how Butch Femme Socials has been treated by different bars/clubs in the Bay Area. Some are great and some will make your milk curdle in a bad way. We just don't go back where we were treated like shit without some genuine apology and fence mending. We have also had some b/f/t folks at our Socials CAUSE the shit that happened due to alcohol and chest bumping.

I really do think the conclusions of Olivia discriminates and excludes folks who don't meet their criteria of lesbian are exaggerated. I think it's exaggerated to expect all or most b/f/t folks will be treated like shit. 2 out of 3 stories told here report an excellent adventure/vacation.

Discouraging and pointing out you may be confronted seems smart to me. It means they know their demographics. I still do think they should expand their business model to offer at least one cruise a year that is trans and genderqueer friendly and advertise it that way. I don't think they have to include factory direct men in that model.

[Niceguy]

I am considering selling an organ or something so we can buy our own Big Gay Boat, paint it lime green and pink, and sail all over the world having Cabarets every night.



This is the current BFP "Party" Barge! It isn't big enough to hold all of us at one time, but is still able to throw a good party until we can sell something of Medusa's and buy a BIG one! :D It doesn't dump anything into the beautiful Arkansas rivers or lakes, except maybe the occasional BFP'er who might need to take an unexpected swim! :piratelaugh: We're currently taking suggestions on naming it, and might even consider painting it lime green and pink! :blink: The best thing about it though, is the fact that it's welcoming to EVERYONE! :cheer:

For reservation information, contact Medusa, Jack, or Niceguy! :pirate-steer:




http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/4976273024_dee923bee9_z.jpg

[Diva]

This is the current BFP "Party" Barge! It isn't big enough to hold all of us at one time, but is still able to throw a good party until we can sell something of Medusa's and buy a BIG one! :D It doesn't dump anything into the beautiful Arkansas rivers or lakes, except maybe the occasional BFP'er who might need to take an unexpected swim! :piratelaugh: We're currently taking suggestions on naming it, and might even consider painting it lime green and pink! :blink: The best thing about it though, is the fact that it's welcoming to EVERYONE! :cheer:

For reservation information, contact Medusa, Jack, or Niceguy! :pirate-steer:




http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/4976273024_dee923bee9_z.jpg


Well if we can have a "Big Gay Prom", why can't we have a "Big Gay Barge/Boat" to go along with it? :eyebat:

Ever helpful....

[Gayla]

I think "Big Gay Barge" is a perfect name!

[Strappie]

This is the current BFP "Party" Barge! It isn't big enough to hold all of us at one time, but is still able to throw a good party until we can sell something of Medusa's and buy a BIG one! :D It doesn't dump anything into the beautiful Arkansas rivers or lakes, except maybe the occasional BFP'er who might need to take an unexpected swim! :piratelaugh: We're currently taking suggestions on naming it, and might even consider painting it lime green and pink! :blink: The best thing about it though, is the fact that it's welcoming to EVERYONE! :cheer:

For reservation information, contact Medusa, Jack, or Niceguy! :pirate-steer:




http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/4976273024_dee923bee9_z.jpg

Count me in... WoooHooo!!!!

[Dreamer]

This is how we do it and you can even have karaoke ;)

1aJ7wTfE510

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wow.

"Factory Direct Men"

Really????


Really"

[Toughy]

Wow.

"Factory Direct Men"

Really????


Really"

You got a better term? I'm not using Dylan's favorite term that begins with a 'c'.

[Jess]

I really do think the conclusions of Olivia discriminates and excludes folks who don't meet their criteria of lesbian are exaggerated. I think it's exaggerated to expect all or most b/f/t folks will be treated like shit. 2 out of 3 stories told here report an excellent adventure/vacation.

Discouraging and pointing out you may be confronted seems smart to me. It means they know their demographics. I still do think they should expand their business model to offer at least one cruise a year that is trans and genderqueer friendly and advertise it that way. I don't think they have to include factory direct men in that model.

Couldn't agree more ! it would just make good business sense to offer different cruises that are inclusive of different folks within the community. I mean, they have already gotten the system of procuring boats ( still not a fan of the boat) and hotels/ resorts, so I would think either expanding or creating a sister ( no pun intended) company would be a win-win.

Maybe even call it "Oliver"..

[Admin]

Alright folks -

This thread is completely out of control with the sideswipe comments, the snarky shittyness, and the myopic personal shit.

Toughy - Your comment about "factory direct men" is at the very least insensitive and at worst, Transphobic in this context. Please consider how that comment feels given the temperature of the thread.

Jess - Your comment about "Oliver" cruises is also insensitive and at worst, Transphobic.

Snow - Several of your comments have felt highly personal and rude. Please consider how your own interaction contributes to a negative space in this thread.

All - I am DONE with the snark, the shittyness, and the side-swiping. This thread is NOT in a Red Zone and you all have already been warned.
The next person who takes a swipe in this thread will receive an automatic 1-week time-out with no questions asked.


The personal swipes and shitty innuendos WILL stop or the time-outs will start being passed out like candy. The Moderators have been extremely patient with the behavior in this thread, hoping that it would self-correct, and yet folks have just rolled right on by.

ALL of us need to do our part to keep this thread and website a positive space.

Thanks,
Admin

[Admin]

MountainStar,

We sent you a private message regarding this thread but haven't heard back. I wanted to personally extend an apology to you for the way this thread was derailed. We dropped the ball on not getting it back on track for you and hope that you will accept our regrets about not doing a better job with that.

We appreciate the members who made attempts to re-rail and will ask that folks who want to continue the discussion about the policies of Olivia Cruises do so in another thread.

Thanks,
Admin/Medusa