About Butches Q & A

[AtLast]

The thread is for posing and answering questions about Butch (female or male identified) identity which is non-transgendered relating to our b-F dynamic and historical shared narrative which the site embraces. However, no one is excluded from asking or answering questions here. The reason why the title/intent is non-trans simply has to do with a specific thread for this population not being on the site presently. There is a "Ask a Transperson" thread in the Trans Zone. I think there is an "Ask a Femme" thread as well (?).

When I was new to the B-F dynamic, just being able to ask questions (no matter the content) about both butch and femme was really helpful to me- and this is the spirit of this thread - to be in a safe and non-threatening, non-judgemental environment to ask and answer questions, discuss ideas and share with members. There really are not any dumb questions!


So... ask butches some stuff!

[CausticPrincess]

WHERE ARE ALL THE SEXI FLORIDA BUTCHES HIDING!!!!!!??????
:bigcry::bigcry:Thats my question....I DO NOT do the bar scene.......I am at a loss......and a tad FrUStraTED!!!

Thanks for letting me vent.....WHEWW

:twitch:

[AtLast]

I would like to know from other butches, how you view the B-F dynamic in terms of how and why you were initially drawn to it. Is it mostly about attraction to femmes for you- or does it run deeper in terms of your butch identity? Maybe you have an attachment to butch historically (going back to what defined butch years ago), within a class, ethnic or racial perspective... or not?

[sweetbutch26]

I would like to know from other butches, how you view the B-F dynamic in terms of how and why you were initially drawn to it. Is it mostly about attraction to femmes for you- or does it run deeper in terms of your butch identity? Maybe you have an attachment to butch historically (going back to what defined butch years ago), within a class, ethnic or racial perspective... or not?

I knew i was a lesbian for a long time but i never realized i was butch until i was like 17 LoL It really don't think butch/femme dynamics are a choice. i didn't do anything to be butch i dressed and acted that way because that is who i am and how i felt comfortable.

[Tcountry]

Ahhh Butch-ness...there is nothing like it for me...It was not a decision or something I thought about until a year ago (roughly). I kno who I am and what I like. Not coming out till I was 20yrs old but didnt even change one thing about the way I dressed(someone should have told me it was "ok" much sooner)...
It is a part of me from who I am attracted to...to how I dress and hair-style... to my lack of decorating sense, but can build u just about anything. It is the innate skills and desires we have.
I don't have to have an identifier/label to know this is who I am...but it does fit me quite well :cowboy:

[sweetbutch26]

caustic i was wondering where all the femmes into butches were. i didn't think they existed anymore LoL

[Rockinonahigh]

Looking back over the years I figure out a long time ago when I was about four I wasnt like my girl cousins and never would be.When my mom amd aunts would get all of us together to go buy school clothes or something nice for the hollidays I was usely off in the boys clothes department cause thats what I was suposed to wear...not girlie things.I didnt have much of a choice so I had to go along with it cause mom said so..big time.Funny thing is mom never had a prob buying me boys clothes for the most part,just as long as I wore the dam girl stuff when I had to.Many time is in school I got the evil eye from mother superior about my rough and tumble ways,u bet I got the u r a girl talk even tho in my mind and heart I knew I was somewhere in between she/he.I learned a lot from bothe sided of my growing up,one side made me strong,able to hande many things others couldnt.The other gave me enough girl smarts to stay out of trouble because by time I was old enough to figure out I was a queer baby butch that I needed to keep myself safe cause if I didnt who else would.I took a lot of greif about it but made it through the worst ok.Things are still a work in progress and will always be so.
More later.

[CausticPrincess]

SweetButch.....I am here....others...cant say...but good gawd amighty I cant find MY Butch!!!

:blueheels:

[sweetbutch26]

yea i can't find my femme feel free to pick up an application and message it to me :p

[AtLast]

I knew i was a lesbian for a long time but i never realized i was butch until i was like 17 LoL It really don't think butch/femme dynamics are a choice. i didn't do anything to be butch i dressed and acted that way because that is who i am and how i felt comfortable.

LOL.. you were way ahead of me! got the lesbian thing in my late 20's, but not the butch factor until my late 40's!! Well, it was always there, I just had no real models or lived in a time and place until then to just hit my comfort zone.

Something that I really like seeing these days are young butches being who they are so much younger than it was for me. Feels good!!

[sweetbutch26]

goes to show that our community has come a long way. we are still fighting for our rights but winning the war one small battle at a time. homophobia will soon be a thing of the past.

[iamkeri1]

Eons ago, when I was first testing the waters of gay life, I was attracted to that butch energy.I kept finding myself attracted to women who had that "masculine" edge. Then I discovered that a few of the women i liked, felt oppressed by people who found them to be masculine. I didn't understand why they wore men's clothes and sported men's haircuts if they didn't want people to think they were masculine. But I liked/loved them, so I didn't want to say or do anything that added to their feelings of oppression.(But in my secret heart I was still attracted to that energy!)

As time went by I began to meet folks who LIKED being butch and that was a time for me of feeling really comfortable in my world. I had a pretty butch spouse and lots pretty butch (and femme) friends. I felt "normal" not "in the closet" as I had felt with my more andro lesbian friends.

Then my darling decided to transition, and one by one most of those pretty butch friends decided to transition as well. "WTF!" I thought to myself, "Is there really is no such thing as a butch? - are they all just guys waiting for the right time to become who they were born to be?" Or maybe they won't actually transition because the available surgery isn't that great?" A very confusing time for me.

Then one day, a few years before hubby died, I was having a very lonely night. A night where I was feeling really strongly that while I had kept my darling by staying with him (and very much wanting to stay with him) during and after his transition, that I had lost myself. Was I still a femme? Was I still gay? Anyway, I was sitting by my computer, and I typed the word "femme" into the search bar and found b-f. What a rush! There were still people out there like me. There was a place where we were welcome. And wonder of wonder - there really were butches still alive out there. I felt so happy! But then I felt guilty because I felt drawn back to a place where hubby (I thought ) could no longer go. I didn't stick around long enough to find out that trans folk were welcome too. I didn't find that out till several years later when I returned after hubby died.

Well, I just can't seem to do a short post, but thanks for starting this thread. I don't have any questions right now, but I have a lot of love for people of butch persuasion, LOL, and I want to hear what y'all have to say.

Smooches,
Keri

[EnderD_503]

I would like to know from other butches, how you view the B-F dynamic in terms of how and why you were initially drawn to it. Is it mostly about attraction to femmes for you- or does it run deeper in terms of your butch identity? Maybe you have an attachment to butch historically (going back to what defined butch years ago), within a class, ethnic or racial perspective... or not?

Good question. I've been thinking a lot about this and related subjects lately, actually, which was sparked by the posts of others on their own identities as well as my own in the male id'd butches vs. FTM thread. Probably more specifically on what drew me and continues to draw me toward the use of butch as far as my identity. We obviously all have different meanings and understandings as far as how we understand ourselves, despite that we may use terms to identify ourselves that are similar to those who have different interpretations of them as far as their own identity.

So the question of what drew me to the B-F dynamic is kind of complicated, I think. First, because I've come to think that butch is nothing beyond what each individual butch understands it to be, and as such I could only be drawn to the dynamic through my own interpretation, I could never be drawn to it as a result of a fixed/universal definition of butch. At the same time, I think that I did have a certain definition of butch in my head when I first encountered the B-F dynamic, but what I chose to see and adopt was more a reflection of what was going on in my head than what the dynamic means to other people (though some do share my thoughts, it's probably nowhere close to being what the majority think).

That said, I think what drew me to the B-F dynamic is exactly that. That I could look at this dynamic and see something of myself in it when I had never experienced that before. I was never able to identify as a lesbian for a number of reasons, primarily because I didn't consider myself female, but as a male born in the wrong body, so to speak. Because of that I felt pretty lost as to what I was and where I might find some sense of myself. Coming into contact with the B-F dynamic was a big relief for me because it gave me the resources to further explore where I was as far as sexual orientation and gender. It also introduced me to femmes, which was the other primary aspect that drew me to the dynamic beyond figuring myself out. I think that when I first came into contact with the B-F dynamic I did have a set idea of what femme was, what butch was and what the dynamic was, and I do think it was a certain interpretation of what femme/butch was that initially drew me in.

Obviously all those definitions are purely my own since there are as many definitions of butch/femme/the dynamic as there are individuals within it, but I think what I initially interpreted as "femme" was merely what I, as an individual, happened to be attracted to in a femme rather than the definition of femme. I think it was almost like a magnetic reaction in a sense. I was drawn to what most seemed to fit me and what I was attracted to in women and assumed that because I was attracted to that part of the dynamic, that that aspect defined the dynamic.

Yet, obviously most butches don't define butch the way I define butch, but I think that can be said for every butch, whether they share labels (soft, stone, male, woman, female, TG etc.) or not. Hell, there are a million and one definitions of stone butch alone, nevermind every other butch id. Even within the same identities absolutely nothing is black and white. We're all different yet we all still see something within the dynamic that attracts us, and in some cases its entirely different things that attract us.

I think that's really the beauty of the dynamic. The dynamic can be whatever those attracted to it want it to be, because there is a niche, so to speak, within it for everyone that is attracted to it. There was one point in my life where I thought that what was "historically" butch/femme fit me, but then I came to see that other people saw what was "historically" b/f differently.

In short, what initially drew me to the B-F dynamic and to the adoption of butch as a part of my identity was the part of the dynamic that reflected my personality, my gender, my sexual attractions. What continues to draw me to the B-F dynamic (beyond, of course, certain commonalities in gender identification and sexual orientation) is nearly the exact opposite in that my interest is peeked by the fact that it continues to open unfathomable numbers of doors as far as human diversity in gender identity and sexual orientation. I think in that respect its impossible to be boxed into butch/femme (or any identity) since even the most "old school" add their own unique twist as to what they consider butch/femme in themselves.

[/ramble]

[Rockinonahigh]

I have no idea where the femmes are in my town,I know there are some but they are with someone,once I walked up to a butch some years younger than me and respectufully intoduced myself so dureing the convo I ask where are all the ladies anywhere close to my age..he laughed and said they either passed,gave up or left town.I know u all are out there some where..but where???

[NorCalStud]

I've tried some labels. What I like about butch is it sorta covers all of me. I feel like I am basically a skeleton underneath all of this and filled with spirit. I guess that is what is important for my identity.

I was born butch. As long as I remember I have just loved girls...girl girls. I have wanted to be married since I was five years old. Still not that yet.

So being butch was a feeling I can never remember being without. That's how I came out of the womb.

Thanks.

[noneoftheabove]

I came to the identify as butch fairly recently. It's been more of an answer for my identity. I've never personally met someone else who identified as butch or femme so I'm hoping to get a sense of community from here. Prior to the last few months I had identified as trans. I didn't really learn about butch women at all until the beginning of this summer through internet resources. I'm kinda of drawn to thinking of butch as a gender in and of itself.

[Soft*Silver]

I have found my share of local butches but none of them are what I am seeking. The older I get and the more responsible and mature I am about the decision I make regarding dating and partnerships, the narrower my field of dating potentials become. I turn to the internet for good conversation and companionship but again, the older I get the more I am resolved not to leave home again..my family is here and I own my own home. I have had enough non successful long distance relationships to know I am unwilling to make that leap of faith again for a butch or FtM. Someone would have to come to me or by god, prove to me that for once, I dont have more to lose than they do. That was the problem in the past. The ones I moved to, could have their old lives back when we didnt work out. I had to recreate mine all over again. And last time, I almost wasnt able to. I had lost so much over a course of a decade that I couldnt lose not one more thing and not end up homeless. Its simply not going to happen again. I am capable of a relationship, just not willing to be so disposible to anyone ever again...forever hasnt meant to others what it meant to me...

So...I am contently single in Ohio. I have my share of admirers online and locally but too damn scared or too narrow in my expectations for one human being to fit the bill. He would have to be someone pretty damned magically real to catch me.

We femmes are out here...

[AtLast]

I have found my share of local butches but none of them are what I am seeking. The older I get and the more responsible and mature I am about the decision I make regarding dating and partnerships, the narrower my field of dating potentials become. I turn to the internet for good conversation and companionship but again, the older I get the more I am resolved not to leave home again..my family is here and I own my own home. I have had enough non successful long distance relationships to know I am unwilling to make that leap of faith again for a butch or FtM. Someone would have to come to me or by god, prove to me that for once, I dont have more to lose than they do. That was the problem in the past. The ones I moved to, could have their old lives back when we didnt work out. I had to recreate mine all over again. And last time, I almost wasnt able to. I had lost so much over a course of a decade that I couldnt lose not one more thing and not end up homeless. Its simply not going to happen again. I am capable of a relationship, just not willing to be so disposible to anyone ever again...forever hasnt meant to others what it meant to me...

So...I am contently single in Ohio. I have my share of admirers online and locally but too damn scared or too narrow in my expectations for one human being to fit the bill. He would have to be someone pretty damned magically real to catch me.

We femmes are out here...


You say so many things here that fit for many mature butches, like me. My home is important to me and although my family isn't that close in location, it isn't all that far, either. I am not willing to just uproot and move and not willing to do a long distance relationship, either. I wouldn't ask someone to do what I choose not too or cannot do. I have pets, too and I love my yard and gardens. I'm not going to take long trips elsewhere and leave my home and to expect the other person to most of the travel isn't fair.

Now, I do live where there is a large queer population, but, my age and list of "non-negotiables" have very much influenced my not partnering with someone again. The possibilities have been out (many femmes are near) there and I appreciate this fact, but, I have not dated anyone that is a good fit for me. Also, the B-F community here has a pretty high rate of poly and leather femmes. Neither of those are what I seek. Both work well for many people and I applaud them. I certainly have some good friendships with people that practice both and that is a good thing.

I have met femmes from the Planet (and dash site) at events and of course, I have met some I was attracted to and just really thought were great and wondered if I would hit it off with them if given the opportunity. However, femmes in my age group (and I am not interested in being with someone a lot younger or older than myself) also have careers, family and friends where they live and like you, are not going to just jump into anything.

Due to arthritis, I have been considering moving to a dryer climate and even doing some extended road travel to check out areas, But, this is strictly about my finding out if I like another geographic area that might be easier on my joints. It is not to pursue a relationship.

I have been fortunate in my lifetime to have known what a positive long term relationship is like and have to be honest, i wouldn't settle for anything less. I'd rather remain single. if someone comes into my life again and both of our sets of needs and wants match and we live close enough to not cause undue difficulty, then i would probably welcome her into my life.

I do enjoy some dating, but, I also have close friends that like to do the things that i enjoy and friends are important to me. sure, I miss the kind of intimacy one shares with a partner and of course I can feel lonely at times. Yet, i have a full life and one I am grateful for. Plus, I totally love retirement. Although, the recession has had an effect on this and has put limits on me. But, all will work out eventually.

So much of this is about natural life passages….. And cycles…[/COLOR]

[AtLast]

I've tried some labels. What I like about butch is it sorta covers all of me. I feel like I am basically a skeleton underneath all of this and filled with spirit. I guess that is what is important for my identity.

I was born butch. As long as I remember I have just loved girls...girl girls. I have wanted to be married since I was five years old. Still not that yet.

So being butch was a feeling I can never remember being without. That's how I came out of the womb.
Thanks.

What you say about butch is how you came out of the womb is interesting to me. I think many of us may have part or all of this belief. When I consider this, it makes my identification stronger and my belief in it as just fine as it is much stronger. That is what will come up for me when asked about ever wanting to transition. No, I'm fine just as I am is at the root of what I feel. And I want a space in our society in which this is so. No questions about being more male than female, or assumptions made about any of my butch attributes. Not my personal alignment with indeed being female (other butches feel differently), not any question about butch being what is true and comfortable for many.

[Soft*Silver]

I too have, ALH, I have experienced a wonderful loving long term relationship and will not settle for less. I want to be precious to someone, not just a trial and error. Living with someone used to be a sign of committment. Moving in with someone you have an LDR with, seems to be just the next step and not necessarily a committment. Committment seems to be the next step. I dont want it to be the next step. I want it to be committment. Maybe if I find someone who sees it as such, my choice to remain single might change.

I personally would just like to date. Go to movies. Have dinner. Stay in and watch a favorite tv show together. Go to museums. Attend an outdoor symphony. Go to a pumpkin festival. Those are the things i would like to do with someone. You cant with an LDR. And the cost of air faire makes this most prohibitive on any budget. I think I would fall over if a butch/transman would say they were flying up to take me to a punkin festival. I swear to god I would swoon like a teenager...but in our age bracket, like you said, probably just not going to happen...

[Kobi]

I would like to know from other butches, how you view the B-F dynamic in terms of how and why you were initially drawn to it. Is it mostly about attraction to femmes for you- or does it run deeper in terms of your butch identity? Maybe you have an attachment to butch historically (going back to what defined butch years ago), within a class, ethnic or racial perspective... or not?

Interesting thread.

Like others have said, identity is an individual thing. I would add to it...shaped by the times in which you lived and the experiences you incurred along the way.

I was raised the only daughter in a very patriarchal Italian family. I always envied the preferences and privileges given to males. I also was a tomboy who preferred sports and tree climbing to playing with dolls and makeup. I had a hard time understanding why there were differences based on sex organs and never felt like I fit in either mode. (these were the days when the newspaper ads had separate help wanted sections for men and women.)

And I loved women, particularly older women. I loved the energy of being around them. And I was always aware of how that changed when males entered the picture. Funny the things you see as a child. And, the attempts to turn me into the prevailing concept of a "lady" were daunting. My mother still doesnt appreciate the irony of insisting I go to an all female school so I could learn to be a lady (or a lesbian). Sometimes you give a little to get something in return :)

The womens movement and gay rights movement both influenced my identity. I was always happy to be a female. My idea of a female and what a female could achieve and do in the world was different, but I never questioned my gender. I was more comfortable in pants and oxfords which were more conducive to my tomboy pursuits than girlie clothing would be. The womens movement just accentuated how I always felt as a woman i.e. capable, achievement oriented ( I insisted I would be the first woman to attend Providence College. Didnt happen but it was a dream of mine), physically active, just living, being all that I thought I could be without my gender limiting me.

The gay rights movement influenced me as well. I was not very keen on the traditional b-f thing back then because it seemed very focused on traditional male/female roles, perceptions, and relationships - the very thing I was trying not to be. I always felt women could do better than that and spent a lot of time exploring the various options that were developing.

I came back to the b-f mold when it seemed to shed its hetero influences and incorporate more woman defined/oriented aspects. That felt more like the person I was/am. I may be more attuned to my masculine side but not at the expense of my feminine side - there can be a lopsided balance :)

I still wear comfortable clothing but would never think of buying mens clothes except for their sneakers which are made better. I am the least handyish butch you will ever meet but I am a great go-fer and direction reader. But, I do know how to treat a lady like the lady she is :)

The b-f community today, to me, is different again with a more visible trans influence. I respect the journeys of our brothers but as a lesbian and a feminist I find this confusing. Sometimes I feel like Rip Van Winkle, awakening to a new reality, I still havent quite grasped yet.

And age does play a huge role here as others have indicated. As I get older and more settled, I focus my energies closer to home.

[Tcountry]

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you? ;)

[AtLast]

I am oh, so all over the map with what attracts me to a femme! i don't have a "type," really unless it rests on her self-emamination. Mainly it's about the way she carries herself and intelligence. I know I key into sensuality much more than sexiness. Just how I'm wired. LOL, I also am just not one to talk all that much about what I consider private between me and someone I am seeing or involved with.

I may think a femme is attractive at first, then after talking to her for a bit, no longer be. I'm sure this is the same for many femmes as well.

I'm not exactly sure why, but, I don't use terms like "hot." That is something to me that goes far beyond the outside of a femme. I also get tired of people being described in terms of looks anyway. How many times have you tried to think of what to say when another butch goes on and on about a femme they think is attractive and you just don't? Doesn't mean I don't think she is smart or a warm person, or interesting- I just don't see what the other butch does or in the same way. Eye of the beholder.....

Of course, chemistry and heat are ingredients I seek, but, they have to blend with all of the other things that draw me to someone.

Hummm... now 25 or 30 years ago, my answer may have been different! I remember being driven by my hormones. Just not the same anymore. But, way better in various ways. There go those life-cycles again! I think I am OK for 59. Nothing special, nothing horrible. I know I am a good human being, but have faults like everyone else. I still can see that some femmes are attracted to me, others are not. I appreciate the ones that are very much!

[Tcountry]

:sunglass: Thus why I said look & attitude...lol
I am begining to think that I like a look that has come and gone...or I simply live in the wrong part of the country to find it...:blink:
I am a sucker for the 50's housewife look...skirt or dress always, even the apron, mmmm yes very nice...but it seems I will not find any woman anymore who actually wears skirts/dresses more often than not...:doh:
And a trait you cannot change...when her emotions show in her eyes, no matter how hard she tries to hide it with the rest of her actions... :cheesy:
As far as attitude goes...a lady who says hon or dear to almost everyone she knows...one who can be shy, playful, or an out-right vixen when need be...

Oh be still my heart...find me one like that .....someday ;)

[Kobi]

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you? ;)




Every woman has an essence that is uniquely her own. It is this essence of who she is that will hold my attention. Describing it is difficult. The girl next door look is a plus. A quiet confidence, inquisitive mind, a ready smile, sensual body language, good sense of humor, a heart felt laugh, a sexy voice, a good companion, peaceful demeanor all add to the allure. But words are seldom adequate to describe something that is as instinctual as attraction.

[Glenn]

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you? ;)

Big Bad Bold Beautiful lil babygirls.

[Soft*Silver]

I love to listen to your attraction to femmes

I love to hear that who we are do not go unappreciated

I love to know the yearning for women like us is out there

thank you, dear butches, thank you...

[Rockinonahigh]

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you? ;)

OHHH ahemmmm yes,the look/attitude can change over time but the essence of who she is and she knows it shows.The walk of, im woman hear me roar ...but then I can be such a kitten too...yeah to hot to handle works for me...most of the time.

[rlin]

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you? ;)

i think i fall with the status quo for this group... (and... i can tell ya... that damned sure doesnt happen often...)
the essence of woman to me is what does it...
for a femme to know she is a femme... for her to celebrate her femininity... whatever that means to her... however it manifests...
and i am hooked... throw in a little bit of extroversion and a little bit of a wonderful subby nature...

my my my...
yes...
that is what i want...

[swagger]

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you? ;)

A feminist femme, a strong woman and a kind one. I look (hard) at legs, ass, hands, eyes - probably in that order. Straight, dark hair that falls like a raven's wing into a bob does it for me in a major way. Compassionate and humorous eyes and a smile like a sunrise.

[LipstickLola]

Question for you all, does a 'strong' woman, femme in type turn you off?
I'm asking because of something I'm trying to figure out from the past, yeah, I should let it go, but? I'd really like to know if that is a negative to butch women. I'd not change one iota, (am a softy really) but I am what I am, so? just asking :)

[AtLast]

Question for you all, does a 'strong' woman, femme in type turn you off?
I'm asking because of something I'm trying to figure out from the past, yeah, I should let it go, but? I'd really like to know if that is a negative to butch women. I'd not change one iota, (am a softy really) but I am what I am, so? just asking :)

Personally, no. I prefer independent, strong femmes. Where this can get sketchy for me has do do more with things like loudness. But, I am just not one for loud, anyway. Femme or butch.... all other people. It is just a personality style thing for me as a person, myself. i can get really tired of feeling my own voice notch up when trying to have a conversation with someone like this (again, anyone from any identity).

I enjoy gregarious women very much- but that isn't really what I'm talking about- abrasiveness is probably the best description. Again, I don't care for abrasive people- isn't really a femme thing.

I love my older sister to pieces, but, sometimes I need a break from her when we are together- she is rather loud and just has a personality that can take over- cause others to feel that what they have to say isn't important. But, she can hear this criticism. And has given me some pointers as well about how I might come off to other people. My softer persona along with being somewhat reserved might come off as stuck-up. I have to watch this.

[Mtn]

Question for you all, does a 'strong' woman, femme in type turn you off?
I'm asking because of something I'm trying to figure out from the past, yeah, I should let it go, but? I'd really like to know if that is a negative to butch women. I'd not change one iota, (am a softy really) but I am what I am, so? just asking :)

The love of my life, was/is very strong, she can handle herself anywhere, and was in many ways stronger than I, it was a total turn on. I still got to care for her, but knowing she can and will make it in the world was an awesome thing. I am proud of who she is, and the decisions she is making for herself. She also had all the sweetness of a girl and could literally make a room light up. She is still a real blessing in my life, and one I will always cherish.

[LipstickLola]

Personally, no. I prefer independent, strong femmes. Where this can get sketchy for me has do do more with things like loudness. But, I am just not one for loud, anyway. Femme or butch.... all other people. It is just a personality style thing for me as a person, myself. i can get really tired of feeling my own voice notch up when trying to have a conversation with someone like this (again, anyone from any identity).

I enjoy gregarious women very much- but that isn't really what I'm talking about- abrasiveness is probably the best description. Again, I don't care for abrasive people- isn't really a femme thing.

I love my older sister to pieces, but, sometimes I need a break from her when we are together- she is rather loud and just has a personality that can take over- cause others to feel that what they have to say isn't important. But, she can hear this criticism. And has given me some pointers as well about how I might come off to other people. My softer persona along with being somewhat reserved might come off as stuck-up. I have to watch this.

Thank you for that! :)
I think I hear you, brash is a word I think I'd use in describing abrasiveness too. Although I can be loud if necessary, (my playground voice, lol) it's more the vibe I give off I suppose. I'm 5'8' (was recently told that was tall, ;) ) and as my momma always said, I walk like a linebacker :( I can't help that, (charm school didn't work).....my point is, that doesn't adequately describe my entire persona, you'd have to actually talk to me to know I'm not that person.

[AtLast]

Thank you for that! :)
I think I hear you, brash is a word I think I'd use in describing abrasiveness too. Although I can be loud if necessary, (my playground voice, lol) it's more the vibe I give off I suppose. I'm 5'8' (was recently told that was tall, ;) ) and as my momma always said, I walk like a linebacker :( I can't help that, (charm school didn't work).....my point is, that doesn't adequately describe my entire persona, you'd have to actually talk to me to know I'm not that person.

YES! And tall is good! So is short!

Be who you are. As a butch type that usually falls short of many of the butch standards I see sometimes, I know about internal questions and sometime insecurity. But, what I have learned is that both butches and femmes have many different styles and traits. I don't need to fit into any box and I sure don't think that anyone else has to. besides, standards are fluid.

[swagger]

Question for you all, does a 'strong' woman, femme in type turn you off?
I'm asking because of something I'm trying to figure out from the past, yeah, I should let it go, but? I'd really like to know if that is a negative to butch women. I'd not change one iota, (am a softy really) but I am what I am, so? just asking :)

She's gotta be strong! Absolutely. Mind you, it's all subjective isn't it? I wouldn't want a lover who couldn't show "weakness," humility, vulnerability ... I'm a tough woman who can show those things too after all.

(Strident's another good bad word lol).

All women should be strong. All of us.

But you know, that analysis/assumption some people make, of butch being strong and femme weak, well it's a laugh, innit? Most femmes can kick my ass one way or another! :D

[Rope]

Question for you all, does a 'strong' woman, femme in type turn you off?
I'm asking because of something I'm trying to figure out from the past, yeah, I should let it go, but? I'd really like to know if that is a negative to butch women. I'd not change one iota, (am a softy really) but I am what I am, so? just asking :)

Strong women are sexy. I date submissive women but they are by no means weak women. They are strong, independent, courageous women.

HOWEVER that said, define strong---mean and cruel under the guise of strong, not attractive.

Rope--

[swagger]

I would like to know from other butches, how you view the B-F dynamic in terms of how and why you were initially drawn to it. Is it mostly about attraction to femmes for you- or does it run deeper in terms of your butch identity? Maybe you have an attachment to butch historically (going back to what defined butch years ago), within a class, ethnic or racial perspective... or not?

excuse me for being late in this thread, but i like the question ...

i think i was butch way before the butch-femme dynamic even occurred to me. tomboy kid .. i was always mistaken for a boy. i had a short phase of conforming to some femme archetypes and then sort of naturally slid back into just being me. i've always preferred a "masculine" style of dress and in fact, having also grown up with rather a feminist approach, by nature and nurture, it never occurred to me that my biological sex meant i had to conform to what society defines as my gender. i'm not comfortable with either "masculine" or "feminine" as words, never mind labels.

i dated bois and i dated wannabe butches, as well as "feminine" women. i dated a few people who defined themselves as femme. it fit way better. it just felt right - as long as they weren't into un-feminist stereotypes too much ... and i try hard not to act in a "chauvinist" way myself, even under the guise of irony.

so for me butch is about ...

style
walking on the right hand side of her in the way of chivalry i.e. to keep your sword arm free in case you have to protect her (what complete bollocks, but i find myself doing it anyway)
feeling like the top even when i'm on the bottom (dang, that's not a butch thing either is it?)
lol and it's back to style ... the way i dress, walk, talk ... the way i present myself to the world and the way that the world perceives me.



... and i worship my feminist femme lover - and unlike friendships, a lot of the things i worship about her, are things that are very different to me.

[Jess]

Strong women are sexy. I date submissive women but they are by no means weak women. They are strong, independent, courageous women.

HOWEVER that said, define strong---mean and cruel under the guise of strong, not attractive.

Rope--

Could not have imagined a better response. KUDOS!

[DapperButch]

AtLastHome:

<<I would like to know from other butches, how you view the B-F dynamic in terms of how and why you were initially drawn to it. Is it mostly about attraction to femmes for you- or does it run deeper in terms of your butch identity? Maybe you have an attachment to butch historically (going back to what defined butch years ago), within a class, ethnic or racial perspective... or not? >>


Being butch has nothing to do with the butch/femme dynamic for me.

I AM butch. I date femmes, which results in being a part of the butch-femme dynamic.

I was butch and I dated femmes long before I knew what the butch-femme dynamic was.

I was a part of it before I knew there was a name for it.

[CherylNYC]

Great thread, ALH. I have two questions for the butches. Several of the previous butch posters mentioned feeling somehow inadequate. It sounds as if many butches feel like there's a standard that defines what it means to be butch, and they feel they don't live up to it.

I certainly have those feelings as a femme. I can clean up and dress up pretty well, but my everyday look, as well as my passions and work life, are not at all congruent with feminine standards of dress and behaviour. Feminine standards are broadcast from every billboard. We all know what they are, and I know that in many ways I don't fit them. Most of the time I don't give a rat's ass, and as a feminist I applaud myself for breaking stereotypes on a daily basis. BUT, in my less confident moments I can still be made to feel insecure in my femme ID. Every movie, every commercial and every magazine holds up some impossible ideal of what a feminine woman is supposed to look/act/be like. I know it's a bunch of photoshopped crap designed to sell us products we don't need, but some of it sinks in anyway. Even for me.

There are no TV ads that tell us how a butch is supposed to look and behave, (Thank the Goddess!). So where does the butch standard come from, and how does it happen that butches feel like they are inadequate to it? I'm guessing that even for the most feminist butch, some of that standard is probably based upon expectations of how a man should act. I hope there's a lot more to it than that. Do/did you have role models? Was/is there someone in your life who told/tells you that you aren't butch enough? (I confess to a very unfeminine urge to kick the ass of anyone who would do that, by the way.)

My second question is a related pet peeve. I have a feminist outlook born in the 1970s. Back then all the smart, feminist girls paid their own way on a date. What happened? How on earth has it become expected that the butch pays for the date? It makes no sense to me. Who would have imagined that I would have to re-establish those ground rules as a middle aged woman dating butch women? Is there a reasonable explanation? Please help me out with this.

[Tcountry]

I am not sure there is a single standard...nor exactly where it would come from. We all have our own ideas of how 'a' butch should act, dress, etc...but the good part about our ideas is they are all different & unique to each of us. I would venture to guess that not any two butches you will ever meet will be the same. My dad's joke is "we can't all be the same...cause if we were we would all chase ur mother & she wouldn't like that"...lol
So I guess my own ideals are from my father & grandfathers...as well as setting an example for the younger generations. And it is mostly just about being genuine & respectful. I don't have the feeling of not living up to that standard tho...so maybe not the best one to answer that question.

The dinner question...*sweet smile* my opinion...
I love to pay for dinner. I want to just have a great time with my dinner guest(s) & put it all on one check & not have the "how do we split up the appetizers" talk...lol most of the time it was my idea to go out or where to go anyway...so why not just let me pay for it?
My fiancee will attest to the fact that I would rather go out again & let someone else pay next time than split the check each time. (and even then I get the urge to pay, but am getting better about it) lol :)

[xxzalciaiomenxx]

I identify as a Dyke, personally I don't like the term butch even though most would look at me and say "hey there goes that butch chick." I understand and mean no offense to those that do ID as butch. I am very masculine in appearance at first meeting, once you get to know me you will find out very quickly that I have an effeminate side, I am very much a woman even though at times I feel inadequate and an impostor in my own body. I have over time come to terms with myself after years of not knowing exactly where I fit in, I have always felt that I should have been born male and something went terribly wrong in the development of the embryo that would eventually become Jenn...from the time I was a small child I knew that I was a "lesbian" even though I didn't know there was a word for it. I would find myself attracted to women, having crushes on the neighborhood mothers, and always being the "daddy" when we played house. I loathed girl clothes, in fact I got in trouble for destroying a dress or two when I was little. I felt comfortable around my male friends, and if I was given a doll as a present I either lost it or pulled its head off! (sorry Barbie)
It was no big shock to my parents when at 16 I told them that I was gay, my friends knew and luckily, since I live in a small town in redneck central WV, I was accepted and never given a hard time about it...I was fortunate to have an older butch friend who was there for me, and I believe this made my coming out much easier.

I work in a long term care facility and most of the residents take one look at me and call me he, I don't correct them because it would 1. Embarrass them, or 2. Confuse them. I have one lady that calls me "Sir Lady" and when asked why she told me, well I know your name is Jennifer and your a girl, but when I look at you I see a Sir, so I just call you Sir Lady!!!

[Skittlesluver]

Great thread, ALH. I have two questions for the butches. Several of the previous butch posters mentioned feeling somehow inadequate. It sounds as if many butches feel like there's a standard that defines what it means to be butch, and they feel they don't live up to it.

I certainly have those feelings as a femme. I can clean up and dress up pretty well, but my everyday look, as well as my passions and work life, are not at all congruent with feminine standards of dress and behaviour. Feminine standards are broadcast from every billboard. We all know what they are, and I know that in many ways I don't fit them. Most of the time I don't give a rat's ass, and as a feminist I applaud myself for breaking stereotypes on a daily basis. BUT, in my less confident moments I can still be made to feel insecure in my femme ID. Every movie, every commercial and every magazine holds up some impossible ideal of what a feminine woman is supposed to look/act/be like. I know it's a bunch of photoshopped crap designed to sell us products we don't need, but some of it sinks in anyway. Even for me.

There are no TV ads that tell us how a butch is supposed to look and behave, (Thank the Goddess!). So where does the butch standard come from, and how does it happen that butches feel like they are inadequate to it? I'm guessing that even for the most feminist butch, some of that standard is probably based upon expectations of how a man should act. I hope there's a lot more to it than that. Do/did you have role models? Was/is there someone in your life who told/tells you that you aren't butch enough? (I confess to a very unfeminine urge to kick the ass of anyone who would do that, by the way.)

My second question is a related pet peeve. I have a feminist outlook born in the 1970s. Back then all the smart, feminist girls paid their own way on a date. What happened? How on earth has it become expected that the butch pays for the date? It makes no sense to me. Who would have imagined that I would have to re-establish those ground rules as a middle aged woman dating butch women? Is there a reasonable explanation? Please help me out with this.

As a butch, my personal opinion on your first question is that there is so much more to being a butch than dressing or acting a certain way..its a state of mind if you will. I had no role model growing up as a butch. I knew I liked girls and not boys. I knew that I got along great with boys and they considered me "one of the guys". I played touch football, climbed fences, got dirty and even got kissed by a girl who thought I was a boy lol I think it's an all around persona one embodies and its definitely different with every butch. It's very open and vast..the spectrum of it. Maybe I am more butch to someone (in their opinion) than to someone else. It's all personal perception of an individual.

As for the second question, I think most butches want to be chivalrous or gentlemen by treating their femme like a true lady..which would include paying for their meal, opening the door, pulling out their chair etc. Once again, it's a personal choice. I have no problem paying for dinner or going dutch. Compromise seems to be of the norm these days..and rightfully so with the feminine movement having advanced so far and pushing the boundaries each day. :)

[AtLast]

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you? ;)

How one carries themselves has always been at the heart of attraction for me. Mainly, the self-comfort with that carriage of the woman is what interests me.

I have been attracted to femmes that are all over the charts in terms of what I think I understand about this look you speak of. I also can be attracted to non-femme identified women. Mainly, I don't do the labelling of others, including femmes. I listen to how that individual identifies herself.

[bicentennialjenn]

i'm wondering if anyone can relate. i'm with someone younger, and i'm her first lesbian experience (ever!). even though i should be more experienced, i feel like it's the opposite. she said she fell in love with me after dating 1 month and is sexually assertive... she wants to go down on me and use a strap on all the time (which is great), but she is really good at both and seems experienced. i would have thought it would take time to be confident/good at it? i am not complaining, just curious. was it like that w/any butches here? like one day you're dating men and the next you realize you are 100% into a woman and telling her you're in love w/her and fine going down/using strap on and ready to tell your parents you're a lesbian??? did you need any adjustment or was it that sudden? were you like that as soon as you met a woman you were attracted to? why i'm asking is that i think part of me has a hard time believing this is true, but she's never lied to me about anything else.

[SleepyButch]

i'm wondering if anyone can relate. i'm with someone younger, and i'm her first lesbian experience (ever!). even though i should be more experienced, i feel like it's the opposite. she said she fell in love with me after dating 1 month and is sexually assertive... she wants to go down on me and use a strap on all the time (which is great), but she is really good at both and seems experienced. i would have thought it would take time to be confident/good at it? i am not complaining, just curious. was it like that w/any butches here? like one day you're dating men and the next you realize you are 100% into a woman and telling her you're in love w/her and fine going down/using strap on and ready to tell your parents you're a lesbian??? did you need any adjustment or was it that sudden? were you like that as soon as you met a woman you were attracted to? why i'm asking is that i think part of me has a hard time believing this is true, but she's never lied to me about anything else.

I guess I wonder, has she thought about women before you came along? I thought about women even while dating men.

I fell head over heels in love with the first woman I was dating pretty quickly if I remember correctly. I think it was because of all of those endorphins that were being released because I was finally dating/having sex with women. Maybe that is what is going on for her. Maybe that is what is going on for her. She is happy with you and she is having sex (endorphins).

As far as her experience goes, I don't know but why would she lie. Some people are just naturally good at sex and I guess if she has been in the past with men, maybe that is why she is confident now. Did you ever ask her how she got so good?

[bicentennialjenn]

thanks for your insight... the endorphins part makes sense. she said she had zero thoughts about women before me. she's mid 20s and looks/acts butch. can't see why she'd lie but i still can't help but wonder. guess it shouldn't matter. and i did joke w/her about being so good in bed... she denies it lol

[randrum]

thanks for your insight... the endorphins part makes sense. she said she had zero thoughts about women before me. she's mid 20s and looks/acts butch. can't see why she'd lie but i still can't help but wonder. guess it shouldn't matter. and i did joke w/her about being so good in bed... she denies it lol

I'm in my late 20s. And while I've never dated men, I was sort of a "late bloomer" (relatively speaking). I figured out I was different pretty young, but never knew how to classify it. I didn't have my first kiss, with anyone, until I was 19. Didn't officially come out until I was 21. And only recently started identifying as butch.

That being said, I knew instantly that being with a woman was right for me. Now, I had thought about women before. But never acted on my thoughts until my first girlfriend and it just clicked right away.

Some people just are more sexually assertive. Personally, I expected to be shy at first, especially with my more experienced first girlfriend. But I found I'm a natural top and it just came easier. Maybe your girlfriend is the same way.

My other thought is that it's easier for your girlfriend to be in control of the situation. Some times its hard to put yourself in a vulnerable position, such as letting someone go down on you. If she controls the situation, she can set the pace and make sure things progress in a way she's comfortable. Now, I don't know if that's really the answer, just another thought about what may be happening.

[randrum]

I haven't been on this site very long. A week maybe? And I have found a lot of good stuff. And met some cool people, even made some friends. But last night in chat I had a mini freak out moment.

I was asked if I identified as male or female. I answered both, either. But internally I was sort of freaking out. Needless to say I fled a few minutes later, which I'm not overly proud of. But the answer to the question is I don't know.

I've always identified as female. I mean, I was born female, raised female, even was forced into many dresses as a kid. But I was also a huge tomboy. And I had kids make fun of me for being boyish. Even as an adult I get looks and comments.

When I came out, I had a group of all gay friends who were really supportive and proud of being gay. But I realize now they were really narrow minded. They didn't have room in their view of sexual/gender identity for anything besides gay and lesbian. Butch was not something that was accepted. And I sort of went along with it, because I didn't know any better or had the courage/self-confidence to go against the group.

But after college and losing touch with that group, my view of myself started to evolve. And I learned to start being comfortable in my own skin. So I started to shop for clothes in the men's department and wear male cologne because I like the smell on me.

The last couple years have been eye opening. And I can finally admit that yes, I am butch. But at this point, I don't know much more than that. Or even what it means completely to me. So yes, I've always identified as female. But maybe I would be okay identifying as male. I mean, I have only recently started packing on occasion and it feels completely natural and, well, me. So why wouldn't identifying as male too?

I know that I am over generalizing things. Because gender identity is anything but black and white. And as I am learning it's a deeply personal, continually evolving dynamic. My mini freak out isn't a bad thing, it's a learning thing. A growing moment.

I still have a ways to go in figuring out myself. But I don't have to do it immediately. The one thing I do know is that I've found the right place to help me through the process. All the different threads I've read, stories from all of you, have been so helpful. And informative. So thanks for sharing.

[DapperButch]

randrum,

Don't forget that sex and gender are not the same thing. There are butches who identify as female (sex), but not as a woman (gender). Butch is also a gender.

Additionally, many do not see sex (male/female) as binary and instead see it as on a continuum. Genderqueer people, for example see themselves as somewhere in the middle (or they see themselves as both). There are gender neutral people, genderfluid people, etc.

I am just suggesting that you don't jump to male from female. There is lots inbetween. Don't stress yourself out about it. Do some research on gender theory.

I identify as stone, butch, and as transgender (not transsexual). I use male pronouns, but I am also ok with "hy". I am closer to male on the gender/sex continuum and have had male top surgery. Professionally, I live as female, but outside of work I usually "pass" for male and prefer to be related to as a male by the public. I use the men's restroom. See? Gender is fluid and fun! ha! Don't box yourself in!

I have never been to our chat, but I assume people are asking because they want to know which pronoun you would like used. You can either tell them you just want your name used, or choose a pronoun.

Last thing. There are a lot of female identified butches (plus butches who identify as both a female and as a woman), who are more masculine than male identified butches. Additionally, there are a lot of female identified butches who pack. Don't let the traditional societal way of thinking about gender get in your way.

Enjoy the gender journey!

[SleepyButch]

I have always identified as a female (sex) butch but that is because I do not see myself as male (sex). I have all of my female parts and even if I don't necessary want to think of them as female, I don't want to change them either (although I did have a breast reduction years ago because what I had just didn't feel right). I strap. It's a natural extension of who I am when I do. I consider myself to be a really masculine dude!

When it comes to family or friends who don't know what Butch/Femme is, I am always she. I get called lady, woman, girl and sometimes sir, guy, etc by strangers depending on who it is and where I am.

When it comes to being in the Butch/Femme world that I prefer to live in, I use male pronouns, he, him, etc because it's an expression of my masculinity, it feels right, and I like it. I have no problem with hy/hym either.


When a femme asks me how I identify, it makes me swoon a little bit because I know that this is a person who gets it and cares enough to ask.


Anyway, I think we are all always evolving in one way or another. I know I am. Maybe at this point in your life it's okay to say that you are still trying to figure things out. Nothing wrong with that and people will respect you for it.

[TruTexan]

Hey Randrum,
It's ok to not know exactly how you ID in all ways. It's ok to just be where you are. It's ok to have a mini freak out, it's ok to not know all the answers to the questions people ask. It's ok to just say hey, I'm finding my way and I don't know right now. Hang in there, you'll find your way. And just so you know, there's a lot of us here that have gone through that in life as well, if you need questions answered, just please ask, someone will gladly repsond to you .....maybe even a bunch of us will. :)

Hugs to you younger brother, you belong right here with this family if you so choose to remain being part of us. Don't let any of the questions people may ask, run you off, ok.

[Jess]

Aloha Randrum! :hangloose:(that's the Hawaiian greeting :) )

Howdy! :cigar2: (that's the greeting from my home in VA!)

I only had a chance meet and welcome you very briefly in chat, so wanted to take a moment and say it again here.

WELCOME!

I only wish I was your age when I found a place like this! I was very young (read: 3/4) when I realized that I was a "girl"... because I was missing parts my Dad had. It was very confusing. I was in the 4th grade when I had my first "girlfriend" (a memory that was repressed/forgotten until I gained recall in therapy years later) and I was a junior in high school when I fell in love for the first time and realized I was clearly gay/lesbian/queer. It wasn't until I was 38 that I began truly learning about the gender binary, the difference(s) between gender/sexual orientation, the butch-femme dynamic. Trust me when I say, that was way too many years of self questioning/doubts/fears. This site and another similar were a Godsend to me in learning more about myself.

I spent most of my life (and to varying degrees still do) trying to make "ME" make sense. My body and my soul/spirit/gender do not align. I never had to label myself until joining these sites, because frankly, I had never been asked...LOL

Being asked a question about yourself for the first time does often cause a "mini- freak out" because having never been asked, there is no certain/pat answer that just rolls out naturally (unless you are one of the fortunate who has never had to examine your gender/orientation, etc.) It forces you to actually "think" about how to answer and opens the window for self examination/exploration/education.

Before entering this community (the B/F community, I mean), self ID/labelling was a non-issue. In the world of flesh, I formed opinions (sometimes wrong/sometimes correct) based on how I viewed people and by how they present themselves to me. It never entered my mind that people had options as to gender identification and what a gift it was to learn that we DO!

I think you were very much correct and perfectly clear in this:

"Because gender identity is anything but black and white. And as I am learning it's a deeply personal, continually evolving dynamic. My mini freak out isn't a bad thing, it's a learning thing. A growing moment.

I still have a ways to go in figuring out myself. But I don't have to do it immediately. The one thing I do know is that I've found the right place to help me through the process."

I am always thrilled to see young persons enter this community! (not underage, mind you as this site is clearly dedicated to adults...lol) I love that you have the opportunity to speak openly with so many people of such vast differences along the gender spectrum! I am so happy that however you found us, you DID! Too many people for too many years have had to struggle alone in their search of self understanding and acceptance, especially people inclined to be somewhere in the grey areas of the spectrum and not on the more easily defined and broadly accepted "ends" of it. By "end" I mean, clearly and consistently Male or Female and aligned with the societal definitions of those terms. Gosh, it would have been SO much easier to just have been born one or the other...LOL I'm not sure, however, that I would have been the same "ME" that I have come to actually love. :)

Dapper, Sleepy and TruTexan all offered wonderful words of encouragement and I agree with all of their sentiment! Take time with your journey and enjoy the discovery! Echoing all of these generous souls...

Do not rush into any ID or feel pressured to "pick" one...lol

Post questions and concerns or just plain curiosities on threads where you think you may find good conversation about your queeries... If you can't find a thread that sounds like it may deal with your questions/thoughts, start one!!

Definitely bring up questions in chat! A lot of us regulars are older than you and while sometimes we may not use the same vernacular (read: we may talk "old people"... heh ), we definitely care and will be welcome hearing your story and sharing our own experiences.

The most important resonance that all three of the previous responders to your post shared:

ENJOY!!!

The process of discovery, while at times difficult and sometimes painful when walked alone can be a joyous freeing adventure when shared with kindred.

I am glad you found us! Your energy is sacred as is all who come honestly in seeking community. Thank you for adding to ours!

Mahalo! Thank you and best wishes!

:praying:

:goodluck:






Jess
:cigar2:

[imperfect_cupcake]

And you can also answer "actually Prefer to think of myself as a cross between a shrub and trout, but you can call me Nevil." If you a) don't think it's any of their business or b) don't want to answer a private question like that in a public space.

;)

[ProfPacker]

I find this thread really relevant to my journey. I have been on bfp for about 1.5 years and I have gone from Femmepacker to Profpacker, indicating my change in the fluidity of my identity. I will say quite honestly that although I never consider myself femme anymore and do ID as butch... where on the butch spectrum I lie depends on the day. I feel more male in my id but I do not consider myself male. I can respond to hy and she. I feel that part of my journey is presenting my emerging self to my children. I have recently become involved with a femme who is supportive of my journey. I will say that I feel as if I almost live two lives at this point. More butch/neutral lesbian in my life with family and work and more butch overall in my life with the person I have recently connected with.

I do pack when I am away from home and like I have said before it feels very natural to me. I tend not to pack at work these days and mostly with the kids at home although when the urge is strong to pack I do have a flaccid, smaller packer that is not noticeable. I don't know where this will lead in the end. There is an interesting article in the Times about this today and although I relate partly to this it is like everything else, I think I will ID in the end as just me. I do want a relationship with the butch femme dynamic and like sleepy find myself gravitating towards that world because my feelings regarding relationships and my role in relationships is more male and more comfortable to be with others who get it.

[Cin]

Speaking from my me place, I think of butch as traditionally a female or woman identity. For me it's about butch masculinity carried in a female body, about queering masculinity in a female body. Butch does not equal male for me. There is a difference between masculine and male/man to me. There are butches who identify as male but I don't see that as a prerequisite for identifying as butch. To me it is another identifier used in conjunction with but is not a requisite part of being butch. However identifying as male is certainly a part, a very important part, of any butch that identifies that way. But a male identified butch is no more or less butch than a butch who sees butch as a third gender or a butch who sees herself as female and/or a woman. We are all butches. And queered masculinity is a big part of being butch whatever flavor you are. At least to me. And since butch is about queer masculinity whether it's female masculinity or male identified or whatever it's really about something that is intangible and not based on what we wear or who we love or what we enjoy doing in our spare time. It's about who we are inside.

You can identify as male, see yourself as male and be the kind of guy who is into clothes, who likes to read, go to museums or whatever and you can identify as a female and/or see yourself as a woman and be the kind of butch who likes to fix cars, shoot skeet, play sports or whatever. There are as many ways to do butch as there are butches; female identified, male identified or third gender or any variation or combination you can think of that works for you. Find what feels right for you and be that. Just always stay open to yourself and allow for changes as they occur. You can't beat fluidity.

[TruTexan]

Since I'm an older butch, 51 to be exact, and not much in contact with the LGBTQI community, hence the reasons why I tend to be on this site, I am not familiar with some of the ID's such as Butch as a Third Gender. Can someone please explain this to me gently? I mean I"m about a lost as a goose when it comes to this stuff and have spent a lot of time trying to retain what I've read in forums on this particular site, I have terrible time remembering things until I can find a way to get my brain to CLICK on and lodge the understanding in place and it stays. So, please help me to under stand what it means and any help from someone here on the site would be much appreciated.
Personally I see butch as a noun, an adjective and a verb and such. It means a lot to me in different ways that I've yet to be able to peace together on paper to write it out. My brain no longer works like it should due to several reasons and hence a disability for me at times when it comes to harder thinking.
So, thanks in advance for the help.


PS. MS.Tick, great post you seem so knowledgeable I like reading your posts. And to Jess who so to the time to post and step up as well and to all the others, what a wonderful way to make a newbie feel like they belong here and are cared about. I appreciate all of your posts, so well thought out and put together. I enjoyed reading each and every one of them. I learned something new in each post about myself so thanks.

And, to all of you here recently posting in the butch thread in response to randrum's post, thanks for stepping up to help ran. He needs our support on that journey of finding oneself. I personally love the site and all its been for me and the online friends I've made here. Thanks again.

[JDeere]

Welcome Randrum to the Planet, first off.

Secondly, you will find a lot and I mean a lot of different Identities on this site, it can be overwhelming at first, but asking questions, does help.

Back when I was in High school I was heterosexual genetic born female, then as I got older I came out as bisexual, I was with both genetic males and genetic females. Then I learned about butch, I wasn't so sure about it till I learned more from folks in the community, well lo and behold at the ripe age of 36, I learned that in all actuality what I was feeling about myself and how I felt as a child as well, is that I am Transgender.

Transgender is a huge umbrella term to me. I am writing this in my personal experience and opinion, only.

Everyday, lots of folks are coming into their own, give it time Randrum, you will get to where you feel very comfortable about your identity and yourself.

Never be afraid to be proud of who you are, no matter the label. You will find some great folks on the site as well as support.

If you ever need an ear, message me and we can chat.

[Cin]

I am not familiar with some of the ID's such as Butch as a Third Gender. Can someone please explain this to me gently?

Some people see themselves as a gender other than female or male, thus the terminology third gender. It is a gender outside of the binary. Some people feel having a third gender reinforces the other two thus it does the opposite of breaking free of the binary. Some do not agree and feel that a third gender allows an escape from the masculine/feminine gender trap. Some think everything outside of the binary can and should be lumped into a single third gender. Others think there are many more than 2 or 3 genders.

I believe the important thing, however we identify, is not to adopt the gender binary. It's difficult since we spend a huge amount of time discussing our identities in terms of masculine and feminine. Socially constructed ways of understanding what it means to be male or female permeate our gender narrative and influence our conscious and unconscious assessments of who we are and how we act and interact with others. We need to examine this and understand how we are conditioned to think in pink or blue.

This is probably clear as mud. I'm sure there are many people here that could explain this a hell of lot better than I have.

[fulltimefaking]

I don't know if this is the right place to put this... but I would love to read about some butches experiences of dysphoria.

I'm 22 years old. I have been with girls since I was 14 and out of closet since then so that part is not a problem for me. I dressed and expressed myself rather feminine (with very little passion for it I can tell) until one year ago, when I started to buy "mens clothes". In the begin wearing "mens clothes" felt like being high, like I finally did something that was truly me. I cut my hair and so on.

Later last spring I started to be annoyed by my breast, mainly when I saw them in the mirror, but then it accelerated. Started to lie awake late at night and thinking of how it would be to have flat chest instead and longing for that. Longing in a really hurtful way. And I started to wish I would just wake up and look more like a guy. This is still going on (my attempts to suppress these feelings hasn't succeeded...) Sometimes I feel so disconnected from myself and my body. It is like that I'm some moments can get into some place where me having flat chest is real, and to get back to reality after that hurts so bad. I feel so much panic sometimes, when I realize there is no escape from this, from my body or from society. I feel like I don't want people to look at me, I can't stand anymore that they look at my body.
These feelings of panic worries me partly because I have a history of depression and self harming... I guess I am afraid that I will fall back

I have been trying to seek "explanations" for these feelings like, maybe I am a guy? (I know this is a super binary way of thinking). But I feel comfortable with female pronouns and most of the time with identifying as female. No other trans identities that I've read about makes sense for me either. I just feel like I am a masculine person, even if I don't now exactly what I mean when I say that.

I feel to scared to talk about this with anyone I know. I have mentioned this to my best friend but took it all back later, and said I just think it was a phase (lol). Actually I feel very lonely and disconnected from everything right now. I used to hang out a lot in feminist groups/enviorments, but lately I have just escaped all of that, doesn't feel like it is room for me there.

So, yeah, if someone would like to share it would be great to hear from some butches about your experience on dysphoria and how you are dealing with it.
I got to find a way to deal with this cause I won't be able to afford top surgery for probably another decade and someone like me would never pass the tests swedish doctors do before they provide free top surgery

Also, sorry if my english is not good, it is not my first language.

[DapperButch]

I don't know if this is the right place to put this... but I would love to read about some butches experiences of dysphoria.

I'm 22 years old. I have been with girls since I was 14 and out of closet since then so that part is not a problem for me. I dressed and expressed myself rather feminine (with very little passion for it I can tell) until one year ago, when I started to buy "mens clothes". In the begin wearing "mens clothes" felt like being high, like I finally did something that was truly me. I cut my hair and so on.

Later last spring I started to be annoyed by my breast, mainly when I saw them in the mirror, but then it accelerated. Started to lie awake late at night and thinking of how it would be to have flat chest instead and longing for that. Longing in a really hurtful way. And I started to wish I would just wake up and look more like a guy. This is still going on (my attempts to suppress these feelings hasn't succeeded...) Sometimes I feel so disconnected from myself and my body. It is like that I'm some moments can get into some place where me having flat chest is real, and to get back to reality after that hurts so bad. I feel so much panic sometimes, when I realize there is no escape from this, from my body or from society. I feel like I don't want people to look at me, I can't stand anymore that they look at my body.
These feelings of panic worries me partly because I have a history of depression and self harming... I guess I am afraid that I will fall back

I have been trying to seek "explanations" for these feelings like, maybe I am a guy? (I know this is a super binary way of thinking). But I feel comfortable with female pronouns and most of the time with identifying as female. No other trans identities that I've read about makes sense for me either. I just feel like I am a masculine person, even if I don't now exactly what I mean when I say that.

I feel to scared to talk about this with anyone I know. I have mentioned this to my best friend but took it all back later, and said I just think it was a phase (lol). Actually I feel very lonely and disconnected from everything right now. I used to hang out a lot in feminist groups/enviorments, but lately I have just escaped all of that, doesn't feel like it is room for me there.

So, yeah, if someone would like to share it would be great to hear from some butches about your experience on dysphoria and how you are dealing with it.
I got to find a way to deal with this cause I won't be able to afford top surgery for probably another decade and someone like me would never pass the tests swedish doctors do before they provide free top surgery

Also, sorry if my english is not good, it is not my first language.

There are definitely a number of butches who feel dysphoric about their chest, but you may want to consider that perhaps when it comes to your sex, you would identify as non-binary (betweeen male and female) or gender neutral (neither male nor female), and that this is what you are bumping up against, rather than it coming solely from a place of being (a) butch. One can be butch and still be something other than female or woman identified. You are by far not the only person who feels this way. I will PM you a link to a forum that you can check out if you don't get all your questions answered here.

You are not alone, my friend!

[BullDog]

I am completely comfortable as female and woman but also would prefer a flat chest and still hope to do something about that in the future. There are other butches that feel that way too. However you identify in terms of your gender and feel about your body, either now or in the future, just know that you are not alone and there is no one way to be female, male or any other expression. Best wishes.

[BullDog]

fulltimefaking,

Here is a thread you might want to read:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6999

[TruTexan]

fulltimefaking,
You are not and never alone in how you feel. There are plenty of us butches out there that have gone through what you're dealing with. I am a female, woman identified lesbian butch, but I don't really care for my breasts, they to me are just things that make me look more like a girl more than I want to. When I worked in physical jobs, they'd get in the way of things I had to do. I always wanted to have smaller breasts that wouldn't stick out so much. Over the years, I've just learned to deal with it by accepting the fact that I have them and they are a part of my body whether I like it or not. I've never wanted Top Surgery, although there are others that have wanted that and did it.
However you feel is just that, how you feel about YOU. Allow yourself to go through your emotions, feelings and logic to see where you can find some kind of comfort. have you thought about binding? That is a way some of us have dealt with our breasts and some still do. There are bras out there you can get that are more flattening for you to a degree. I'm sure there's a thread around here someplace that talks about butches and binding. Try looking in the Butch Forum topics. There's tons of information there other than just that as well. Hang in there and don't ever be afraid to reach out to one of us here on the planet to talk to along with lots of others here as well. Come into chat sometime and meet a few of us and enjoy your stay here.
As Dapper and Bulldog have responded, they are some really great folks to talk to. Don't hesitate to initiate friendships on the site. You belong here just as much as we do. I'm glad you found us. Welcome to the Planet by the way.

[Corkey]

Hi. Be you, be the best you you can be. Be as nonconforming queer butch human being you can be. Welcome to the Planet, the place for being.

[TruTexan]

Hey Fulltimefaking,
I found a link to the Frog Bra thread Dapper started; check that out and see if you'd be interested in using that for while til you figure things out.

FROG BRA LINK (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7653)

[fulltimefaking]

Thanks to all of you for your answers! It means a lot to me to know that you have read what I wrote and to get your support and perspectives. When I had read your answers yesterday I cried cause I felt such a relief that I finally had expressed these feelings of dysphoria in words (beyond very confused diary notes) but also because all of this feels very scary. I feel terrified of not knowing where these feelings will take me. Spent so much time in my life trying to be the girl people expect me to be, I don't have a fucking clue what I am going to find if I start to truly listen to myself.

I do use a binder almost daily nowadays, but it is some sort of light variant that honestly doesn't help so much (my breasts are pretty big). I have recently ordered a new one from the US which I hope will do a better job :)

[TruTexan]

Hey Fulltime,
Just be in the place you are for now, one day at a time, it's a step by step daily process to go in a direction of YOUR OWN DAILY JOURNEY. Be YOU and the BEST YOU , you can be, one day at a time. Keep posting and reading threads, make friends, come to chat and talk. Hang out with us, and make yourself right at home with the rest of us. Not all of us here have finished our own journey, some of us are still in that process. This is a safe place for all of us and the Admins keep it that way. Don't be shy, it's ok to ask questions/have discussions in threads, talk to us, and add friends to your list. Send messages to us if you need one on one talk. Someone will respond to you as soon as they are able. You're now a part of this family here, so just make yourself right at home, if you wish to.

[Femminator]

I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.

[TruTexan]

I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.

I don't think I ever actually had that life long journey along the spectrum of finding myself and what kind of butch I am. I am just me and I happen to accept and be ok with my being female, a woman, and masculine all at the same time. For me, the questions of being butch enough were usually coming from someone else questioning MY butchness, and with that I mean, probably only about 2 or 3 other male Identified butches questioned it. It was a posturing thing that I quickly diffused. I wonder if it is only lately that she is feeling some sorta age thing within herself that makes her excessively question herself? Like a midlife thing? Kinda sounds like it to me maybe.
As far as harder for older butches to date? I think that the older we get that there are less avenues to find women to date since we no longer go to the same hangouts like the bars as we might have when we were much younger, therefore leaving a tiny dating pool of friends making suggestions or finding meetup groups to create a larger pool of options when we are older single butches. Me, I just find it hard to meet people since I don't know anyone at all around where I live and there are no gay people here. Even when I lived in Austin, I found it hard to find groups that were older unless someone created a meetup.com group for lesbians in my area that got together to make friends and then I find that there's the clique thing still going on. I hate that crap. Anywho, I'd be interested in speaking to your gf about what she's going through and why she's questioning herself so much and to tell her my own stories I have and my own issues , that sorta thing, so she knows she probably not alone in how or what she is going through. Tell her to contact me when she decides to come onto the planet, to hit me up with a message so I know it's her. We can always use another butch around here ya know. LOL I hope she signs on and visits often.

[Cin]

I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.

I don't know if it is common but I have questioned if I am butch enough at some moments in time and i have also questioned if i was too butch. Mostly it was when I was younger and it was usually in response to someone else's questions or remarks about my butchness.

I had a partner who thought I was less butch later in the relationship than I was initially. I didn't see it, nor did I agree with her assessment, but she was certainly entitled to her opinion. I didn't feel less butch. But one cannot change another's perception. I questioned myself because of what she said, but I didn't feel any change so I was able to let it go. I don't like to dismiss other people's feelings but sometimes their feelings are based on something that really has nothing to do with you, even though they are looking at you as the cause of their dissatisfaction. In this case the partner ended up leaving me for a man, so I guess compared to a man I didn't present masculine enough. And that's fine with me.

I have also had a partner who thought I could/should tone down my masculinity. I didn't even get how that could even be possible for me to do. I feel like if you are not comfortable with your partner's gender presentation perhaps you need a different partner. It would probably be easier than trying to get someone to change who they are. That never ends well for anyone.

But I don't think I can remember just waking up in the morning, yawning, stretching, and then questioning my butchness or lack there of. I am the same butch I always was. I did however question how I acted, how I presented at times. This was an issue for me as I struggled to live comfortably as a masculine woman and as a feminist. My relationship with masculinity has always been difficult. I don't trust male and by extension masculine. We do live in a patriarchy so being suspicious of men/male/masculine just comes with the territory for many women. Masculinity comes with a certain amount of privilege even couched in a female package. Albeit there are challenges that a masculine woman faces daily as well as oppression for being female, gay and masculine presenting, but there is also privilege for the masculine part. Which is pretty confusing because there is also aggression and hostility for the masculine part because it is in a female package. It's enough to make your head spin.

But I did at times try to reign in my masculine side because of how I saw masculinity. It didn't work very well. I always ended up not feeling good about trying to deny who I was. I did finally come to terms with myself as a masculine female. Interestingly enough though, I never tried to encourage myself to stretch for more masculinity. It wouldn't have mattered though, it would never work out comfortably either way. I don't think one can force oneself to be more or less masculine or more or less feminine than one is. So if your butch is trying to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center (what is center by the way? androgyny?) perhaps it would help her to just sit with her feelings and see who she is when she is all alone with herself.

Anyway I think any insecurity I feel regarding being butch comes from other people not from me. Inside me I am butch and comfortable with it. Outside interference causes questioning for me. Not so much anymore but I had to work it all out first before I was able to not respond to other's judgments. Perhaps she just needs to get to that point where she is comfortable in her skin and other people can't rock her with comments and judgments. Or do you think she is questioning whether she feels like she is butch or not? Because that is something different.

[DapperButch]

I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.

I think it is pretty common for butches to question these things, but I have really only seen that when a person first realizes they are butch, not a decade(s) later. Or maybe I misunderstood and she only more recently realized that butch was her gender?

[Femminator]

Thank you for the offer Tru, I really appreciate it.

Miss Tick, She knows she is Butch and not TG . So that is not in question. It's questioning what is Butch and how she wants to present(I think).

To be honest with both of you, she was raised by a very conservative religious family and she struggled to realize she was Butch in the first place and not TG. She never knew anyone gay until her 20's. She says she would like to be 'more' Butch and present more so, but is having difficulty with sorting out the social messages and stigma involved with it. She works at a college and there are all sorts of out Butches there and she says she is not always brave enough to dress like she wants to(more Butch, more masculine clothing, says the clothes she wears sometimes feel girly to her).

When we first started to date, she had longer hair(all cut off now) and was more what I would say is a Soft Butch, but as time has gone by she has indicated that she is and was always less comfortable as that and wants to be more Hard Butch. Fine by me, Butches float my boat, all of them! We have been together for a decade so I am for the long haul, still love her and appreciate her being any type of Butch. She tells me a lot that she hears that voice in her head that tells her she is 'too boyish' when she dresses the way she wants to, and I am pretty sure it comes from how she grew up. So, I think it's more of a growing into herself finally after being what society wanted her to be. Maybe accepting herself finally. She struggled with addiction for years and is 13 years clean and sober this year, so perhaps it's just that she never really took time to figure out what type of Butch she was in the first place. Much less having any type of mentor in it. Also, Tru, maybe you are right, age sometimes makes us question where we are in life and who we want to be.

I have encouraged her to hit this site anyhow and hope she will take me up on it. I think it would be awesome for her to talk to some other Butches.

[Femminator]

I think it is pretty common for butches to question these things, but I have really only seen that when a person first realizes they are butch, not a decade(s) later. Or maybe I misunderstood and she only more recently realized that butch was her gender?

She had always thought till pretty recent that being Butch was a way of dressing and such, not seeing it as an actual gender in and of itself. She has many friends in gender studies at the college she works for and I think this also has opened up a new way of thinking for her as she talks to them and sees herself as the gender of Butch and not just a lesbian with butch tendencies(if this makes sense.)

[Cin]

Miss Tick, She knows she is Butch and not TG . So that is not in question. It's questioning what is Butch and how she wants to present(I think).


I didn't know I was asking or even talking about TG. That wasn't even on my mind. I guess I wasn't very clear. Sorry.

If she does come here tell her to pm me if she would like. I would be glad to chat back and forth a bit on the subject. Sometimes things are clearer when there is an exchange with someone instead of just posting my thoughts.

Let's hope so anyway cause clearly I did a piss poor job this go round.

[Cin]

and sees herself as the gender of Butch and not just a lesbian with butch tendencies(if this makes sense.)

Well I suppose technically that could be considered TG seeing oneself as a third gender I mean...

[Evolved]

I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.

--------
From my perspective, it's not so much of a question of "am I butch enough" but more of am I presenting my authentic self to the world. It's difficult because gender norms and expression - thus labeling is rooted in our socially constructed notions of what is butch and what is femme. I find that in our culture (US) we are so fascinated by how woman portray themselves whereas when I was in Germany, it was less of an issue/fascination.

I don't think I have ever compared myself to some invisible butch measuring stick but I have found that some femmes that I have been with do compare me to exes with regard to butchness. So I guess it's been more of how I am perceived in the world. Some would consider me "soft" butch. Whatever that means, I'm not sure but if that's what they need to label me as, by all means. What matters is not to lose yourself in the process. It sounds like she has some great love and support from you to help prevent that from happening. :)

Was her questioning herself spurred by a conversation she had with someone or an event?

I'm sure the forum would welcome her with open arms if she ever had questions or needed someone to vent/talk to...

:)

[DapperButch]

She tells me a lot that she hears that voice in her head that tells her she is 'too boyish' when she dresses the way she wants to, and I am pretty sure it comes from how she grew up. So, I think it's more of a growing into herself finally after being what society wanted her to be. Maybe accepting herself finally. She struggled with addiction for years and is 13 years clean and sober this year, so perhaps it's just that she never really took time to figure out what type of Butch she was in the first place. Much less having any type of mentor in it. Also, Tru, maybe you are right, age sometimes makes us question where we are in life and who we want to be.


From everything you have said, this seems spot on to me. All of these variables/pieces make sense as to why it would be now and not before.

[ProfPacker]

Femminator,

I think all the questions you are asking for her and all the questions she is asking for herself can come at any time during one's development when the environment opens up the possibility and support to explore and this can be for many different things.

I was in my 60's when I had a similar awakening as your partner. I am still on my journay and have different feelings, thoughts and desires regarding my gender identification all the time.

I think having a supportive person in her life and in your life will be a home run. glad you found us. I hope she feels that we are a place for her as well.

[Femminator]

I didn't know I was asking or even talking about TG. That wasn't even on my mind. I guess I wasn't very clear. Sorry.

If she does come here tell her to pm me if she would like. I would be glad to chat back and forth a bit on the subject. Sometimes things are clearer when there is an exchange with someone instead of just posting my thoughts.

Let's hope so anyway cause clearly I did a piss poor job this go round.

No, you're fine, I am just trying to think about it all and post clearly and it's so stinkn' hard online! You kinda have to read into to some things so it is probably my own spin on things.

[Mormegil]

I dont really know where I stand. My brother has told me countless times that im butch. and i do wear masculine clothing and have other traits associated with being butch.

But when i look into the mirror , i dont feel "butch" , I dont feel anything. not femme or butch. I simply exist.
I dont feel very feminine or masculine at all. But sometimes the balance i seem to have shifts one way or the other and then i return to the middle. and i tend to be extremely flexible when it comes to a partner. if she is more masculine iam usually more submissive unless she is. and if shes femme I can be her gentleman . I comfortably shift according to the needs or vibes she gives off , but its not something i do at will , it just kinda happens naturally by itself.

[ProfPacker]

Mormegil, I understand how you feel. When I was younger I felt that way although I always liked more femme women (even if they didn't traditionally present that way). As I get older I am taking on a more butch sense, however in truth I feel a lot like you most of the time...more butch (and in behavior and mental thoughts definitely) soft, athletic butch in presentation but find clothes hard to buy because a lot of time with fashion I am in the middle...mind more metrosexual...body not exactly there these day.

I am just me and each day I feel more and more like that is ok. This week is graduation week at the college I teach at and under my robes (hot in the sun I will tell you that) I will be dressed professionally in linen, soft butch like but will probably wear some eye make up....etc. I think it is more to be comfortable with who you feel you are at the moment and not have to dress or act within the guidelines of any labels...that is my thought for the day...although like I said I ID as butch...even with man liner I feel more butch. when I am with a woman, more dominant and gentlemanly, etc.

[DapperButch]

I dont really know where I stand. My brother has told me countless times that im butch. and i do wear masculine clothing and have other traits associated with being butch.

But when i look into the mirror , i dont feel "butch" , I dont feel anything. not femme or butch. I simply exist.
I dont feel very feminine or masculine at all. But sometimes the balance i seem to have shifts one way or the other and then i return to the middle. and i tend to be extremely flexible when it comes to a partner. if she is more masculine iam usually more submissive unless she is. and if shes femme I can be her gentleman . I comfortably shift according to the needs or vibes she gives off , but its not something i do at will , it just kinda happens naturally by itself.

If it was the 1950's, they would call you kiki since you could switch back and forth. Back then you had to choose butch or femme and if you could not slide yourself (or force yourself, I suspect), into one of those roles (or gender identity, depending upon how you saw it), you were called "kiki", with the expectation that you could go back and forth depending on who you partnered with.

Anyway, you don't have to be butch or femme. That is just one tiny slice of the lesbian/queer community. Seems to me it is a great way to fly...more choices! ha!

Remember, even if you don't identify as butch or femme (or trans, for that matter), you are welcome here.

P.S. No one is allowed to define you, but you. Especially not your brother!

[CherylNYC]

I dont really know where I stand. My brother has told me countless times that im butch. and i do wear masculine clothing and have other traits associated with being butch.

But when i look into the mirror , i dont feel "butch" , I dont feel anything. not femme or butch. I simply exist.
I dont feel very feminine or masculine at all. But sometimes the balance i seem to have shifts one way or the other and then i return to the middle. and i tend to be extremely flexible when it comes to a partner. if she is more masculine iam usually more submissive unless she is. and if shes femme I can be her gentleman . I comfortably shift according to the needs or vibes she gives off , but its not something i do at will , it just kinda happens naturally by itself.

I hope it's OK for me to comment in this thread even though I'm not butch. There's no need for you to make decisions about how to present. It's really, REALLY perfectly OK to just be who you are in the moment. No one else gets to tell you how that 'should' be, or to identify you as butch or femme. Simply existing is just fine. Most of the butch and femme women I know simply exist, which places them somewhere in a vast galaxy of possible presentations. A few of those women are extraordinarily masculine, and others are really traditionally feminine. Most of the others fall somewhere in between. They aren't posturing. It's just who they are. And that's great.

By the way, I understand that there's a societal assumption that masculine=dominant, and feminine=submissive. That assumption is problematic for many of us. You can be very masculine and not at all dominant, and vice versa.

[Corkey]

Just as cloths don't make the person, hair styles, shoes,shirts kilt, whatever one wears does not make them who they are. I could wear a dress and still be presenting as male, you'd soooo know the difference. Here's the thing, how ever she presents doesn't change who she is. Humans have been trying to figure this thing out for millinia, (sp) and it still comes down to ....Be You.

[Tuff Stuff]

Speaking for myself only,I would hate it if my lady told me she likes fucking straight men..like WTF!!
It would be I suppose a jealous thing for me,because I like to think I can fullfill my lady's needs in everyway possible.

This is the kicker..ready?

I do fuck men.I am a butch woman..I don't see anything wrong with me doing it.I mean i'm not involved with any bio-man at the moment.But it was not that long ago that I had an affair with a man,which ended as quickly as it started.She knows about these 'flings' and told me its just primal urges *snort*

If She had any primal urges like mine,i'd probably end the relationship.

Is it a double standard?

Affair to me means some romance and then wham bam thank you,i'm gone.

I don't think i'm cheating on her,she doesn't either.

I'd like to marry this woman some day,but I wouldn't blame her if she left me tomorrow.

[JDeere]

Personally my opinion that's a double standard.

[Deborah*]

I would like to know what percent of butches do you think are attracted to femmes? And what percent to butches?
I've always been curious about this.

Deborah

[Lyte]

Well.... I'm thinking your data is likely to be a bit squed since this is a Butch/Femme site. ;) Even so, there are some Butches on here who have said they like other Butches.

As for a % ... I couldn't say ... but... you can count me among the Femme fan gang. <~~ say that five times fast! :p


I would like to know what percent of butches do you think are attracted to femmes? And what percent to butches?
I've always been curious about this.

Deborah

[cathexis]

I would like to know what percent of butches do you think are attracted to femmes? And what percent to butches?
I've always been curious about this.

Deborah

How's about a genderqueer leaning a little towards butch who is only attracted to butches and other genderqueers.

What's that do to the survey? lol

[Deborah*]

Again I'm asking.. please answer, I've been curious and would like to know.

What percent of butches do you think are attracted to femmes, and what percent are attracted to butches? To clarify, I'm not referring to this website, but the public in general.

Deborah

[Teddybear]

Again I'm asking.. please answer, I've been curious and would like to know.

What percent of butches do you think are attracted to femmes, and what percent are attracted to butches? To clarify, I'm not referring to this website, but the public in general.

Deborah

I dont think there has been a study on this. I know that each of us no matter how we ID is ever changing.

I wish you luck getting this answer

[Tuff Stuff]

Law of attraction equals personal preference.I always liked women who were "girly" in appearance only.Women who are strong and smart.Women who aren't afraid to speak their mind.I'm very attracted to Femmes,generally,all women.They have the energy I crave.

[DapperButch]

Again I'm asking.. please answer, I've been curious and would like to know.

What percent of butches do you think are attracted to femmes, and what percent are attracted to butches? To clarify, I'm not referring to this website, but the public in general.

Deborah

My only experiences of butches is online B-F forums over the 15+ I have been on them. It is rare to see a butch interested another butch. “In real life”, I mainly see androgynous lesbians/soft butches, and they are interested in each other. I live in the mid atlantic/north east states.

[Deborah*]

My only experiences of butches is online B-F forums over the 15+ I have been on them. It is rare to see a butch interested another butch. “In real life”, I mainly see androgynous lesbians/soft butches, and they are interested in each other. I live in the mid atlantic/north east states.
Thanks Dapper.

Deborah

[JDeere]

I dont think a study has been done on this.

But i havent bern on bfp long enough to really think about the percentages.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I would like to know what percent of butches do you think are attracted to femmes? And what percent to butches?
I've always been curious about this.

Deborah

I don't know, I've lived in a few different countries and several citites... and the places that had dyke bars and genderqueer pubs/night clubs...

I'd say most butches had flexibility. Kinda like most people. Most butches liked tomboy femmes, some practical femmes, androgynous types, other butches of various types.
Most butches I knew, hung out with, got with, even married, had *one* butch-butch relationship in their past at the very least.

It's rare I know butches who *strictly* absolutely no exception whatsoever, EVER, see femmes. Most have shagged a butch or an androgynous dyke or had relationships with them, either when there are no femmes around, and they can't deal with screwing married straight women anymore, OR they meet an androgynous/butch dyke with "feminine" traits they recognise as attractive and they have an epiphany about relationships.

I'd say butch-femme -strictly, no exception- is not common.

that's not what people will tell you on some message boards of FB groups ;) but I also know what people say amongst other butches and in front of femmes, and where they have actually shagged is another matter.

people have standard deviation lengths that they will allow away from core attractions. It's a matter of how wide those standard deviations are, and how many someone finds acceptable (how fluid someone is in attraction).

[CherylNYC]

Again I'm asking.. please answer, I've been curious and would like to know.

What percent of butches do you think are attracted to femmes, and what percent are attracted to butches? To clarify, I'm not referring to this website, but the public in general.

Deborah

I doubt that anyone would be willing or able to give you a number. It varies wildly from region to region. For instance, I've met a relatively large number of butch women who partner with other butches in the Bay Area of the US, and similarly found that there are plenty of regions in the US and Canada where there just aren't very many butches of any type. At all. I really have trouble figuring that one out. Then there's the problem of self identification varying from place to place and generation to generation. In some places the women who might identify as butch don't seem at all butch to me because I'm accustomed to a specific style of presentation, and those self identified butches would never ping my radar. And then I meet younger people who I would most certainly call butch, but they would never call themselves that. They identify as genderqueer, stud, ag, MOC, or anything else as long as it's not butch. So they may look like butches partnering with other butches, but that's far from how they would categorize themselves.

I'm sorry to tell you that your question doesn't have an answer.

[DapperButch]

I doubt that anyone would be willing or able to give you a number. It varies wildly from region to region. For instance, I've met a relatively large number of butch women who partner with other butches in the Bay Area of the US, and similarly found that there are plenty of regions in the US and Canada where there just aren't very many butches of any type. At all. I really have trouble figuring that one out. Then there's the problem of self identification varying from place to place and generation to generation. In some places the women who might identify as butch don't seem at all butch to me because I'm accustomed to a specific style of presentation, and those self identified butches would never ping my radar. And then I meet younger people who I would most certainly call butch, but they would never call themselves that. They identify as genderqueer, stud, ag, MOC, or anything else as long as it's not butch. So they may look like butches partnering with other butches, but that's far from how they would categorize themselves.

I'm sorry to tell you that your question doesn't have an answer.

Exactly. Perfect, perfect, perfect. Everything you listed.

In regards to what imperfect cupcake said about people (in this case butches), not being honest and having dates or slept with other butches, that is something that I have never considered. I think it is pretty ridiculous to not be upfront about that. I have never slept with a butch, but who the heck cares? I guess I get it though, people are so worried about what others think. Is it like a person is a "gold star butch" to have never slept with anyone but a femme? :sunglass: :rolleyes:

[imperfect_cupcake]

I don't think I've ever known a butch who has slept with *only* self identified femmes.
there are
straight women
feminine androgynous dykes/just me lesbians
men
genderqueers of all kinds
various kinds of butches
lipstick lesbians
etc etc

I think it would be very, very rare for someone to have only had sex from puberty till now with only self IDing femmes.

[DapperButch]

I don't think I've ever known a butch who has slept with *only* self identified femmes.
there are
straight women
feminine androgynous dykes/just me lesbians
men
genderqueers of all kinds
various kinds of butches
lipstick lesbians
etc etc

I think it would be very, very rare for someone to have only had sex from puberty till now with only self IDing femmes.

I know you weren't directing this at me, but my post saying that I have never slept with a butch may have prompted your thoughts. I said that because you said you didn't think there was anyone who had not had sex with a butch at some point. I really haven't. Whether they identified as butch, or just looked masculine, I really haven't slept with any masculine presenting females, nor any females who had "masculine energy". Just like people who haven't had sex with someone of the same sex or with someone of the opposite sex, I have personally not had sex with someone who presents/has the energy of a butch/masculine female.

I have slept with two "straight women", but didn't have relationships with them.

My preference is to date/partner with queer femmes. I don't believe I would partner with a "straight woman". Even though I have medically and socially transitioned to "male", I am still queer and a woman who has only ever lived as "straight" and has only ever "lived" in the mainstream, heterosexual community just would not suit me. They wouldn't "get me".

But, like Cheryl said there are a lot of people who "ping" as butch (or femme) to us that don't identify that way.

[JDeere]

I've never slept with another butch or a trans person. Always been femmes.

Nowadays I am not opposed to sleeping with a butch or trans person, I don't discriminate.

[DapperButch]

Nowadays I am not opposed to sleeping with a butch or trans person, I don't discriminate.

Is this because your attractions changed (you didn't use to be attracted to butch of trans people), and you now are? Or were you just worried what people would think, so you always stuck with people who identified as femme

[JDeere]

Is this because your attractions changed (you didn't use to be attracted to butch of trans people), and you now are? Or were you just worried what people would think, so you always stuck with people who identified as femme

Just worried about what others would think. Nowadays i dont care lol im getting older and too tired of nonsense to worry about what others think these days.

[cathexis]

Cannot recall, in the 50 years since puberty, that there is a sex or gender that I haven't slept with.
Butches of multiple sorts
Femmes of various types
Straight womyn and men
Bisexual womyn and men
Genderqueer people of various genders
Trans men (pre and post-op)
Trans womyn (pre and post-op)

Did I miss anyone? Spent most of my life quite sexually active as you can see.

[Ascot]

Whether they identified as butch, or just looked masculine, I really haven't slept with any masculine presenting females, nor any females who had "masculine energy".

Nor have I. And, while perhaps not every woman I've been with self identified as Femme, I suspect that's at least in part owing to a lack of vernacular. That essence has always been there. It is that exquisite energy that somehow manages to be intangible and palpable at once. I am every ounce the moth willing to be singed by that flame. Long before I had the language for it, I knew who my counterpart had to be. I'd go so far as to say it's not at all a choice for me. Air, water, light, Femme; all elements crucial in the development of my best self.

I don't feel as though I was ever drawn to being butch because I was never on the outside of it. As others have mentioned, I know beyond doubt that I burst into the world this way. When I was younger, when I had long hair, for example, I know my presentation might have not screamed butch, but my core has never changed and these days my external and internal are more aligned. I've never given much thought to defining butch. I guess I simply prefer to live it.

[Martina]

My impression is that in the SF Bay area, more butches and transmen are into other masculine folk, including cis men, than into femmes or andogynous folk.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Dapper, from what you are telling me, you have only partnered with self identifying femmes from the age you were first partnering with people.
Not feminine androgynous lesbians who "ping" femme to you and your concept of femme, but actual self identifying femmes.

this is kind of what I am trying to say. Not every feminine accented dyke is a femme, not every slightly masculine lesbian is a butch - this is *WHY* I personally have slept and partnered with more than just butches, because some of my masculine flavoured parters don't ID as butch.

And this is also why many butches also sleep with more than just self-identifying femmes. There are feminine presentations personalities in outwardly gender neutral, tomboyish, or only slightly feminine that "ping" attractions in the "right" way, despite not having a self proclaimed femme ID.

So when someone who is I dunno, my age-ish, and says "I've only dated femmes" I want to know if they mean "I've only dated/partnered with feminine presenting dykes that I considered to be femmes even though the didn't use the ID and we were both really young at the time anyway."

or what. I am sure there are rare instances of someone 50-60 years old only dating and partnering with self identified femmes since they were 15, when they were first sexually active, cause some self ID'd femme found them and educated them about it all in the back of a car or something... but I tend to think most butches when they say stuff like that are either fudging the info a bit slightly, *or* they mean feminine presenting lesbians
and not actually
self identifying femmes.

And we all know how much femmes hated being told they were the same as lipstick lezzos back in the late 90s on the dash site, eh?

*taps finger on side of nose*

ok, just steppin out of thread, it is in the butch zone. Sorry.

[cathexis]

As a point of clarification, what would be the difference between a "femme" and a "lipstick lezzie?" Back in the 90s, in my circle, the terms were used interchangeably.

[Gemme]

I'm not cupcake, but I'm a femme and not a lipstick lezzie. I don't ID as lesbian in any way shape or form but I'm Queer all day long. Back in the day there were far fewer ways to ID so some terms that don't necessarily go together got lumped in or were used interchangeably.

[JDeere]

As a point of clarification, what would be the difference between a "femme" and a "lipstick lezzie?" Back in the 90s, in my circle, the terms were used interchangeably.

I always thought they were one in the same, nowadays there are way too many new labels, etc for me to even keep up with.

[CherylNYC]

I always thought they were one in the same, nowadays there are way too many new labels, etc for me to even keep up with.

I feel odd doing this in the Butch Zone, but here I go-

For a person who identifies as Femme, it's often a noun. A Femme, not (adjective) feminine, femmish, girly etc. Femme is a specific, often complicated, identity. It may not even involve wearing lipstick. I don't think anyone ever adopted 'lipstick lesbian' as a core identity the way we do when we call ourselves 'Femme'. There is also the curious fact that, as Gemme pointed out, some femme women who partner with butch women don't consider themselves lesbians, which means the term 'lipstick lesbian' isn't relevant to them. Also, 'lipstick lesbian' is really dated, and no longer used very often.

[JDeere]

I feel odd doing this in the Butch Zone, but here I go-

For a person who identifies as Femme, it's often a noun. A Femme, not (adjective) feminine, femmish, girly etc. Femme is a specific, often complicated, identity. It may not even involve wearing lipstick. I don't think anyone ever adopted 'lipstick lesbian' as a core identity the way we do when we call ourselves 'Femme'. There is also the curious fact that, as Gemme pointed out, some femme women who partner with butch women don't consider themselves lesbians, which means the term 'lipstick lesbian' isn't relevant to them. Also, 'lipstick lesbian' is really dated, and no longer used very often.

Ive only heard lipstick lesbian like a dozen times since ive been out.

[homoe]

Cannot recall, in the 50 years since puberty, that there is a sex or gender that I haven't slept with.
Butches of multiple sorts
Femmes of various types
Straight womyn and men
Bisexual womyn and men
Genderqueer people of various genders
Trans men (pre and post-op)
Trans womyn (pre and post-op)

Did I miss anyone? Spent most of my life quite sexually active as you can see.

I'm serious as a heart attack when I say you should consider writing a book!