Forgiveness

[Nat]

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?

[julieisafemme]

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?


What a timely thread! This is the season of forgiveness for Jews. Last Saturday we all packed into a tiny sanctuary and beat our chests and said the prayers taking repsonsibility for all the things we have done over the past year. Jews don't believe that G-d can forgive you for a wrong done to another human being. The process of forgiving another human being is called teshuvah. It means repentance. It also means turning and returning. So Jews go through the process of shedding this life and on Yom Kippur are "dead" and waiting to be reborn fresh for the new year and be g'mar hatimah tovah or sealed for good in the book of life. There are all sorts of rules that govern teshuvah during the Yamim Nora'im.

The process starts in the month of Elul preceding the holidays. The first holiday is Selichot which means sorry in Hebrew. You come to synagogue late and say a lot of prayers to prepare yourself for the month of introspection.

Jews do not believe that every wrong must be forgiven or that it is even advisable in some cases. There is an excellent book by Simon Wisenthal called the Sunflower. It is about forgiveness and brings up some really challenging questions. I encourage anyone interested in forgiveness to read it.

Forgiveness feels good to me sometimes and sometimes not. It all depends on the intention behind it. On Yom Kippur a congregant gave a drash (teaching) on forgiveness and asked everyone around her what they thought. She got some really interesting answers. One was that forgiveness is a manipulative act only for the person who has wronged. I don't agree with that. Interestingly enough this came from a teenager! Maybe it is a developmental thing? To reach an understanding of it.

As always Nat a very interesting thread.

Here is a question...is it necessary to believe in G-d to want to or seek forgiveness? I ask this because it was brought up as the notion of a punitive G-d is all that motivates humans to seek forgiveness. I don't believe this. Just curious.

[lipstixgal]

What a timely thread! This is the season of forgiveness for Jews. Last Saturday we all packed into a tiny sanctuary and beat our chests and said the prayers taking repsonsibility for all the things we have done over the past year. Jews don't believe that G-d can forgive you for a wrong done to another human being. The process of forgiving another human being is called teshuvah. It means repentance. It also means turning and returning. So Jews go through the process of shedding this life and on Yom Kippur are "dead" and waiting to be reborn fresh for the new year and be g'mar hatimah tovah or sealed for good in the book of life. There are all sorts of rules that govern teshuvah during the Yamim Nora'im.

The process starts in the month of Elul preceding the holidays. The first holiday is Selichot which means sorry in Hebrew. You come to synagogue late and say a lot of prayers to prepare yourself for the month of introspection.

Jews do not believe that every wrong must be forgiven or that it is even advisable in some cases. There is an excellent book by Simon Wisenthal called the Sunflower. It is about forgiveness and brings up some really challenging questions. I encourage anyone interested in forgiveness to read it.

Forgiveness feels good to me sometimes and sometimes not. It all depends on the intention behind it. On Yom Kippur a congregant gave a drash (teaching) on forgiveness and asked everyone around her what they thought. She got some really interesting answers. One was that forgiveness is a manipulative act only for the person who has wronged. I don't agree with that. Interestingly enough this came from a teenager! Maybe it is a developmental thing? To reach an understanding of it.

As always Nat a very interesting thread.

Here is a question...is it necessary to believe in G-d to want to or seek forgiveness? I ask this because it was brought up as the notion of a punitive G-d is all that motivates humans to seek forgiveness. I don't believe this. Just curious.

What a good explanation of forgiveness at tis the season!! WE should all forgive!!

Great thread Nat!!

[Isadora]

I have a hard time forgiving myself more than anyone else. Forgiving myself for making mistakes or hurting people or acting out in anger.

I, also, believe some things are unforgivable...and no amount of my Jewish/Catholic guilt will make them go away. When someone deliberately lies, uses me, my body or my friends to cause me hurt and pain, I have a difficult time forgiving. Not that it isn't possible, it is just hard.

Sometimes I think the Judeo/Christian understanding of forgiveness is more hurtful than helpful. Turning the other cheek is not always healing. Those who preach peace/understanding may use it as a weapon of guilt and shame to force change. No change that is not self motivated works for very long.

I think this is what Julie was talking about in manipulative action. I get very tired sometimes when well meaning friends say, "Oh just get over it." when they have no understanding of the pain involved or the amount of deception and the reasons behind why someone one is not forgiven.

Being a survivor of childhood abuse I have some deeply unforgivable actions perpetrated against me. The hurt does not go away. It is written in permanent ink on my heart. Some things are not forgivable.

This is one of my most vulnerable areas. How do I let go and move on when I am incapable (at this moment) of forgiving? Does having to forgive someone mean I have not healed? Am I a horrid person because I have not forgotten how humiliated and abused I felt? I struggle with this as one of my biggest personal growth issues.

[Soft*Silver]

Julie...thank you for the information about your religion. Whenever I have learned about Jewish faith, I find a distinct pull to it, totally different than I feel toward Christianity. I feel so at home in Judaism. Comfortable. As I read about shedding of skin and renewal and even more so, about forgiveness and how not everything should be forgiven, I felt the pull even more. I do not believe everything needs forgiven. I think we need to learn from everything and can move on from it but no,not everything needs or deserves a clean wash. And yet, is that what forgiveness is? I think thats what I have been taught and yet i dont buy into it. Perhaps thats why I like the concept that not everything deserves or needs forgiveness.

I have done some wrongs in life that do not deserve forgiveness. Nothing horrid like murder....shaking my head....but there are many ways to kill parts of people. I am a recovering alcoholic and I have done things that while I ask for ammends for, do not ever expect forgiveness of. Most of these were perpetrated on my daughter. SHe has been in al anon and while we love each other powerfully, we are so both affected by my disease. She says she forgives me but you know what? I hope she doesnt. I hope she keeps it close to her breast, along with her love for me, and combines them, so she can walk beside me. I think thats the only way she can trust me, is to never forget and never forgive. It doesnt mean she should not love me. It does mean nothing can undo what I did. But we do not live in the past so the past should only be there as a reminder.

When I relapsed Nov of 2007, she was shattered. She was nowhere near me geographically but it was as tho I had done this as surely as if I was standing right next to her. I drew a sword and with each drink, shoved it inside her. Does that need forgiven?

Forgiven is not the word that catches everything we need to do spiritually in the world of ammends. The only forgiveness I seek, is with myself, for the pain I brought forth on all those part of me. I learned from it and take great measures to not relapse again. Certainly for me but oh yes, for those my every move in life affects.

I love my AA but I feel a responsibility beyond myself. They say we should only get sober for ourselves. True on some levels but on many others, not completely true. My sobriety is my true act of repentance, and ammends making, to my daughter.

And no, I am not beating myself up over relapsing. I am actually very very glad I relapsed. It broke what needed to be finally completely broken so I could snap out of denial and heal the right way. But it came at a cost. And it wasnt just I who paid it. For this, I am accountable for. Thats all...

well...this is my personal history with forgiveness

[IrishGrrl]

I used to have a much harder time forgiving. I would like to think I am much better at it now than ever before, but I"m not entirely sure that's true. I tend to easily forgive the small things, and the sometimes not so small stuff.
For me forgiveness is given in levels. How much preknowledge someone had about the hurt they were going to cause plays a big part in that. Even if they were well aware, I can forgive depending on how bad it was, and who the pain was inflicted on. I have a very low tolerance for pain inflicted on my children. I can forgive the small stuff usually, but if you cause them undue pain and heartache, that's where I draw the line. I can also forgive alot of things done to me personally, if the person really wasnt aware of the outcome. If you intentionally hurt me however then I"m done. I know myself much better now then I did say 10 yrs ago, and will not say I can forgive someone, when I know that in the long run I cannot. Also, for me there is a big difference in forgiveness, and second chances. I may not completely forgive you , but give you a second chance. Also, I have this little hang up about forgivness..you have to appologize and actually mean it. To me, that means not repeating the same behavior. And please, do not try to coddle me with an " I"m sorry you were hurt by ..." or.." I"m sorry you took it that way".
That's not an appology. That is putting it on my doorstep. That's not an "I'm sorry I did this thing, I was wrong". Big difference for me. Also, just because I forgive you , does not mean that I will forget it. It will stay in my mind forever most likely. It will also take me some time to get over it, and not feel gun shy with you, and please do not try to put a time limit on how long it should take . You arent me.

[julieisafemme]

I used to have a much harder time forgiving. I would like to think I am much better at it now than ever before, but I"m not entirely sure that's true. I tend to easily forgive the small things, and the sometimes not so small stuff.
For me forgiveness is given in levels. How much preknowledge someone had about the hurt they were going to cause plays a big part in that. Even if they were well aware, I can forgive depending on how bad it was, and who the pain was inflicted on. I have a very low tolerance for pain inflicted on my children. I can forgive the small stuff usually, but if you cause them undue pain and heartache, that's where I draw the line. I can also forgive alot of things done to me personally, if the person really wasnt aware of the outcome. If you intentionally hurt me however then I"m done. I know myself much better now then I did say 10 yrs ago, and will not say I can forgive someone, when I know that in the long run I cannot. Also, for me there is a big difference in forgiveness, and second chances. I may not completely forgive you , but give you a second chance. Also, I have this little hang up about forgivness..you have to appologize and actually mean it. To me, that means not repeating the same behavior. And please, do not try to coddle me with an " I"m sorry you were hurt by ..." or.." I"m sorry you took it that way".
That's not an appology. That is putting it on my doorstep. That's not an "I'm sorry I did this thing, I was wrong". Big difference for me. Also, just because I forgive you , does not mean that I will forget it. It will stay in my mind forever most likely. It will also take me some time to get over it, and not feel gun shy with you, and please do not try to put a time limit on how long it should take . You arent me.

Excellent point in the bolded above.

[Diva]

1. What are your thoughts on forgiveness?
2. What does forgiveness mean to you?
3. What does it feel like to you?
4. Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness?
5. Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option?
6. Do you forgive frequently or rarely?
7. Do you forgive yourself?
8. Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret?
9. If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness?
10. Any other thoughts on forgiveness?


What a great, thought~provoking thread.....thank You, Nat.....

I'm just going to start by answering Your questions:

1. If I answer the other questions first, then You'll know what my thoughts are about forgiveness.... :)

2. Forgiveness means (to me) a letting go of a wrong done to You (or someone You love. In my opinion, You can't say to someone (or in Your mind), "I forgive You, BUT...." That is not forgiveness if You must qualify it, anymore than someone saying, "I don't mean to be rude, BUT...." Well of COURSE they mean to be rude or they wouldn't have said it. Why can't we just say ~ outloud or to Yourself ~ "I forgive You." and let it stand?

3. Forgiveness feels like a big relief....a heavy weight lifted off of my heart. And the heaviness is caused (for me) by NOT forgiving. Sometimes, I cannot forgive right away. I know in my heart when I just cannot stand being tired from carryin' that weight around with me any longer.

4. Rituals? Not really....for me, it just happens when it happens.

5. Tough question!!!! For me, to NOT forgive~when I feel it is required of me by my Higher Power~is wrong. But that doesn't mean that I DO forgive always. It's very rare that I don't forgive, but I can think of 2 instances right now where I have not.....and it's not because I haven't tried. And having admitted that now is bringing tears to my eyes.

6. I forgive frequently. And I really do forget about it. I was blessed with that forgetful gene....which, in some cases, is VERY frustrating ~ to me and those who love/care for me. I will remember more things where *I* need to be forgiven more than the other way around.

7. Another good question......I'm better now at forgiving myself than I used to be. But then, I'm 57. I think aging has something to do with that. <smile> And for that, I am grateful to have finally learned that lesson!

8. I have...and I will continue to do so should I do something I regret. We are ~ after all ~ only human.

9. I do have a child......she has seen me forgive HER over and over and it has not marred my unconditional love for her ~ and she knows it....and I believe the best lesson I can teach her about forgiveness is for her to see it in action. I have also expressed to her how much energy it takes to NOT forgive....

10. The only thing I have to say is I feel it has become too cliche` for us to say "I forgive, but I don't forget," when , again to me personally, it seems that forgiveness is all about forgetting the offense. Let it go as quickly as You can. Too much energy, I'm tellin' Ya!

Again....in a perfect world, I would be able to practice what I 'preach'....and I do not always. But I do forgive most of the time. And most of the time, I do forget as well.....and I hope I am forgiven when I offend.

[Isadora]

Although, unlike Diva, I do not forget or forgive easily, I try hard not to feel guilty about it because in some ways it has fueled my activism in anti-violence, domestic violence and sexual assault survivor work.

Irish said:
"Also, I have this little hang up about forgiveness..you have to apologize and actually mean it. To me, that means not repeating the same behavior. And please, do not try to coddle me with an " I"m sorry you were hurt by ..." or.." I"m sorry you took it that way". That's not an apology. That is putting it on my doorstep."

I have sought and sincerely apologized for the behavior I was truly sorry for committing. I will not seek it for what I am not sorry for...like everyone said it would not be sincere and that is also hard to forgive. I remember one apology I got was a cell phone message that basically said "My Mistress said I should apologize to you." *laughs* Not even an apology.

I also would add to it "You really should not take it personally." Huh? Um, how ever should I take it? It is personal, everything is personal. I was hurt! I was lied to and about! I was beat! I was made to look crazy! It was very personal.

Again, this is one of my most vulnerable spots. One I constantly work on... *le sigh*

[Nat]

These are some really wonderful posts and I'm so excited so far to read them. (I bet there will be more before I get to post this too).

I think maybe forgiveness is one of those words where many people have different definitions and experiences, so I really deeply appreciate the specificity of these posts.

I grew up in a world with a father who brought mountains of pain to me and my family. I grew up in a world with a mother who never seemed to forgive me for any slight misstep. And in that scenario, when I say she didn't forgive me, it means that she held onto resentment for things I'd done from a very young age, that she held onto her anger, that she acted like a put-upon martyr where I was cause of her distress. Though she managed her anger well, it was palpable and though she would eventually let things drop, she never really let go of the anger - it just seemed to go down to a simmer until the next time she thought to bring it up. She never said things like, "don't worry about it, I know you didn't mean to do such-and-such" or things like that. She would just turn to stone toward me and offer me no comfort, understanding or acceptance - or even just a marker of "let's put all that behind us now and start afresh." Believe it or not, I was a very well-behaved kid to begin with. I feel bad saying all that because I truly adore my mom and think she was and is a great mom in a whole lot of ways. She was a single mom, struggling with little help, and she was younger than I am now when she did most of that stuff. Over the years, I think she's gotten way better at this stuff - I do feel that she forgives me now for my flaws and mistakes. I think probably she's forgiven me for most of my childhood missteps too - she just never let me know.

Anyway, all that and I've never been sure what exactly forgiveness is supposed to be. When I was younger and probably still to this day, I tended to excuse people rather than forgive them. I would try to understand what their experiences were, why they behaved the way they did, and then just excuse their behavior as part of their personality or programming. *

I didn't know what forgiveness even was, and I'm not sure I do now either. I think about it kind of a lot, but without a really good model for it, it's mainly guesswork.

I have heard that not forgiving a person really hurts you more than the other person, and I think that's true. *There's this meditation that I do, where I imagine the people I'm upset with dissolving into light. It feels like just letting go. Is that forgiveness?

I think maybe forgiveness is a combination of accepting the past and just letting go of anger and resentment. I think of it as a self-healing thing, but I also think there are times when it really can help another person move on to let them know you have forgiven them. *There are some people, however, that although I may forgive them, I would no more invite them back into my life than have a picnic on a fire ant mound. I don't think forgiveness has to mean re-inclusion into one's life if a person has patterns of toxicity and damage. I am grateful to those who have forgiven me for the times when I have erred and for the times when my toxicity levels were at their highest. I think also for big things, forgiveness is a long process. *When I do this meditation, sometimes the same people show up over and over again. And I just try to let go of the resentment all over again.

I tend to be harshest on myself - I find it the most difficult to let go of my own resentments toward myself over past actions and inactions. I'm trying to get better with that. I'm trying to get to a place where I accept all people - including me - are human and we all make mistakes sometimes. I think just accepting a certain amount of leeway in human behavior probably helps. And maybe part of what helps me let go of resentments is knowing how comforting it would be to know that those who hold resentments toward me might do the same. I'm not talking about quid pro quo but more like the golden rule.

As far as religion goes, I think a lot of religions do encourage forgiveness, and there may be a spiritual element in it for those of faith, but forgiveness is probably pretty useful sociologically in order to maintain diplomatic group relationships and I think it's probably pretty helpful psychologically for oneself.

A note on what forgiveness isn't: I don't think forgiveness means what happened was okay or right. I don't think it means you have to remove a necessary boundary between you and another person - unless you decide you want to remove the boundary and you no longer find it necessary. I don't think it means that damage didn't occur. I don't think you have to tell another person you've forgiven them if doing so would re-establish connections you don't want to re-establish. *I think it's just one of those things that makes life a little more livable inside one's own existence.

I say all that, but I'm still not sure what forgiveness really means or feels like to other people. I'm really enjoying the other responses here because I feel like there may be opportunity for me to better understand what it is for everybody else.

[julieisafemme]

These are some really wonderful posts and I'm so excited so far to read them. (I bet there will be more before I get to post this too).

I think maybe forgiveness is one of those words where many people have different definitions and experiences, so I really deeply appreciate the specificity of these posts.

I grew up in a world with a father who brought mountains of pain to me and my family. I grew up in a world with a mother who never seemed to forgive me for any slight misstep. And in that scenario, when I say she didn't forgive me, it means that she held onto resentment for things I'd done from a very young age, that she held onto her anger, that she acted like a put-upon martyr where I was cause of her distress. Though she managed her anger well, it was palpable and though she would eventually let things drop, she never really let go of the anger - it just seemed to go down to a simmer until the next time she thought to bring it up. She never said things like, "don't worry about it, I know you didn't mean to do such-and-such" or things like that. She would just turn to stone toward me and offer me no comfort, understanding or acceptance - or even just a marker of "let's put all that behind us now and start afresh." Believe it or not, I was a very well-behaved kid to begin with. I feel bad saying all that because I truly adore my mom and think she was and is a great mom in a whole lot of ways. She was a single mom, struggling with little help, and she was younger than I am now when she did most of that stuff. Over the years, I think she's gotten way better at this stuff - I do feel that she forgives me now for my flaws and mistakes. I think probably she's forgiven me for most of my childhood missteps too - she just never let me know.

Anyway, all that and I've never been sure what exactly forgiveness is supposed to be. When I was younger and probably still to this day, I tended to excuse people rather than forgive them. I would try to understand what their experiences were, why they behaved the way they did, and then just excuse their behavior as part of their personality or programming. *

I didn't know what forgiveness even was, and I'm not sure I do now either. I think about it kind of a lot, but without a really good model for it, it's mainly guesswork.

I have heard that not forgiving a person really hurts you more than the other person, and I think that's true. *There's this meditation that I do, where I imagine the people I'm upset with dissolving into light. It feels like just letting go. Is that forgiveness?

I think maybe forgiveness is a combination of accepting the past and just letting go of anger and resentment. I think of it as a self-healing thing, but I also think there are times when it really can help another person move on to let them know you have forgiven them. *There are some people, however, that although I may forgive them, I would no more invite them back into my life than have a picnic on a fire ant mound. I don't think forgiveness has to mean re-inclusion into one's life if a person has patterns of toxicity and damage. I am grateful to those who have forgiven me for the times when I have erred and for the times when my toxicity levels were at their highest. I think also for big things, forgiveness is a long process. *When I do this meditation, sometimes the same people show up over and over again. And I just try to let go of the resentment all over again.

I tend to be harshest on myself - I find it the most difficult to let go of my own resentments toward myself over past actions and inactions. I'm trying to get better with that. I'm trying to get to a place where I accept all people - including me - are human and we all make mistakes sometimes. I think just accepting a certain amount of leeway in human behavior probably helps. And maybe part of what helps me let go of resentments is knowing how comforting it would be to know that those who hold resentments toward me might do the same. I'm not talking about quid pro quo but more like the golden rule.

As far as religion goes, I think a lot of religions do encourage forgiveness, and there may be a spiritual element in it for those of faith, but forgiveness is probably pretty useful sociologically in order to maintain diplomatic group relationships and I think it's probably pretty helpful psychologically for oneself.

A note on what forgiveness isn't: I don't think forgiveness means what happened was okay or right. I don't think it means you have to remove a necessary boundary between you and another person - unless you decide you want to remove the boundary and you no longer find it necessary. I don't think it means that damage didn't occur. I don't think you have to tell another person you've forgiven them if doing so would re-establish connections you don't want to re-establish. *I think it's just one of those things that makes life a little more livable inside one's own existence.

I say all that, but I'm still not sure what forgiveness really means or feels like to other people. I'm really enjoying the other responses here because I feel like there may be opportunity for me to better understand what it is for everybody else.

You have brought up a lot of good points here. Asking for forgiveness to me is taking responsibility and letting someone know I was responsible. Giving forgiveness does not mean I have to interact with that person at all. With those I love I am very forgiving. There is an endless supply of love. To forgive someone means I have to care about them on some level. It does to me mean that I want them in my life. Appropriate boundaries are so important as you mentioned. Just because you forgive someone does not mean that you have to bring them close again. Sometimes people don't understand that.

[Rockinonahigh]

Forgiveness,this is a hard one,on one hand a good thing to do but harder to do at times.I can forgive a lot of ppl for things cause u cant fix the stupid stuff ppl do that they dont thing will harm another..there brains arent wired to realise what they do.Do I foprgive the ex hubby that walked out on me with a 3yrold and me still 8 monts along with the second son to be with his partying trophy wife to be.That one took a loooonnnngg time,not so much for me as for the kids who should have had a dad in there lives and didnt..he didnt have the guts to be a dad so they were beter off.Do I forgive the parrents who abandond me as 18 months to split then move on with there lives married to other ppl raiseing other kids..no child suport from either ever.In my own way I have forgiven but forget, no.For a long time I grunged on all the wrongs I had to deal with and all they did was eat up my soul,give me stress,feeling of worthlessness beacuse of so much crap that I delt with with in my life from ppl who were hell bent to see me beat down.Over the last ten years I have done some soul serching and what ive done is, let it go.Its a heavy weight I dont need to cary,its over,done and in the past.Im a new me.I have learned the lessons well of serveing this life and this wil serve me well the rest of my life.

[IrishGrrl]

On self forgiveness. That is also the hardest for me personally. Even when my head knows I had a reason. Maybe not even a good one, but a legit reason.(to me) Sort of like cause and effect. There was a cause, my action was the effect. I am not equating the cause as an excuse however. That was really hard to differentiate. Still can be. When looking at my own behavior, I try to first figure out the "why". When I figure that out, I can follow the path, and usually see how I allowed myself the behavior. It does not however mean that my behavior was acceptable. It never is. But seeing the "why" helps me not repeat the behavior again. It helps me put a flag on it, so when the "why" comes up again, I can say to myself, ok, here's this situation again, now lets have a different outcome concerning my behavior. It's how I hold myself accountable. There are things in my life that I am ashamed of, most of them done before I turned 18. Even though I was young, and had little knowledge of self, I still dont feel as though I can give myself a pass. I think not forgiving yourself leads to not loving yourself. Yep. and that's as far as it goes for me, I"m not at the self forgiveness stage yet. Therefore, while I love myself as a whole, there are parts that I do not love.

[julieisafemme]

Here is a good overview of The Sunflower and the questions it raises.

http://www.ilperetz.org/graduates/daniel_bish.htm

[Kobi]

What an interesting topic.

I have said for many years that "people are patterns of behavior". If you can see the patterns, you see the person. As such you can identify the steadfast from the wishy washy, the intuned from the oblivious, the anchors from the tide, the rainy day friends from the sunshine only folks etc.

As I have gotten older, this has served me well in choosing people I invite into my life and those I keep at arms length. As such, people tend to disappoint me less, which in turn means I have less need to forgive them as I didnt expect them to do such and such anyway.

Forgiveness tho, for me, is reserved for those rare occasions where the tried and true in my life disappoint me. Some transgressions are easily forgiven and forgotten. Some are not.

For me, forgiveness means I see myself and others as imperfect beings who will make mistakes. There are intentional mistakes and unintentional mistakes. An unintentional mistake will be forgiven meaning I accept an honest apology which recognizes a mistake AND we can move on with a greater understanding and respect for one another. These types of events tend to bring people closer.

Sometimes people dont understand why or how they hurt us or disappointed us. Their willingness to engage in a discussion about something and be open to listening is a huge plus for helping to deepen friendships and relationships.

For me, forgiveness, is a feeling of compassion for myself or another, an understanding which defies words. It is a gut feeling emanating from your soul that touches anothers spirit.

Intentional mistakes are not forgiven or forgotten meaning there will be definate changes in our interactions. Examples of intentional mistakes:

1. cheating on me, a friend of mine, or a member of my family.

2. lying in any way, shape or form. There are no small lies. Lying undermines trust which is the foundation of any type of relationship.

3. deceit in any way, shape or form that may not even involve me personally

4. taking advantage of those unable to protect themselves

These are intentional types of behavior for which there is no acceptable explanation. They are types of behavior which are designed to inflict pain, intentionally, on others. This is not acceptable behavior nor is it forgiveable behavior regardless of the reasons for it. Even if it is not done to me, it colors my perception of the person, and makes me wary of them and their motivations.

Intentional behavior will result in a huge change in our interactions simply because this type of behavior brings strife into my life. Life comes with enough strife without my "pals" bringing me even more.

I always thought I would become more mellow as I aged. I havent found that to be the case. I see myself as more judgemental than I was when I was younger or am I just more discerning? I am less open to new things and ideas or are they just the same things and ideas with a different spin on them? I am more guarded with my time and energy...well that just because there isnt much to spare. Maybe I'm just not old enough yet?

[PearlsNLace]

Oh, im headin out the door to see the sunset, but I dont want to loose this thread.

*Subscribing*

Fantastic, well timed topic!

[chefhottie25]

i believe in and practice forgiveness. i have been forgiven by my friends and family for all the heartache i caused them when i was in the thralls of addiction. i wouldn't be doing so well without their forgiveness. it has taught me how to be forgiving when people in my life commit acts or say things that might offend or cause pain.

[Julie]

I can and will forgive any action (be it verbal or physical) which has been handed down to me.

In order for me to heal from the assault/action, I must forgive. If I carry the anger/hurt with me, then I will not heal, nor will I be able to shed this emotion from my being. I have been assaulted and without going into the details of my assault -- I needed to forgive my perpetrators in order to heal. People who knew of this, were pretty upset with me, that I would even consider it, to go to that place for them. If I continued the hurt/anger - then I would be a victim. I cannot ever be a victim. This would destroy me internally -- This does not work for all people, but it worked for me and continues to do so.

Forgiving myself... This is a much deeper and more difficult notion for me to conquer. I still carry the pain and sadness, of all the hurt I have created in others. I do not believe the hurt I have caused was intentional and it does not matter for me. What matters, I brought sadness and hurt to another person. For me, I cannot use the "I am human." There is no excuse for me.

Julie... I grew up with an orthodox grandmother and with the traditions and prayers you spoke of. I wish I could go back there sometimes - I have this block which keeps me from going there. I think, I have yet to forgive G-D - perhaps that should be part of my forgiving.

Julie

[Laerkin]

**Disclaimer: I decided not to read the other entries first because I didn't want my initial thoughts and feelings influenced by the always-intriguing entries. So I apologize if any of this is massively repetitive. :)

Forgiveness of others is imperative for growth (in my opinion). The people I most admire (Dalai Lama, Gandhi, Pema Chodron, wise friends) believe that forgiveness is what allows us to heal, to experience compassion, and to move forward on our path. I totally agree with this.

I have no control over the actions of others. So, why would I cling to what others have done as if this static spinning of my own wheels will somehow change a past event? It does me no good to wrap myself in an unchangeable past by holding a grudge or expecting something out of someone other than myself.

So, forgiveness feels like release. I feels like surrender to things I cannot control which allows me to move towards the things I can control - my own reactions, thoughts, and experiences.

Of course, forgiveness is not always an easy thing to offer and sometimes it takes some soul-searching to get to a place where I'm ready to forgive, but my goal is always forgiveness. I work very hard to let things go as quickly as possible. It only hurts me when I refuse to move on.

I believe everyone, especially myself, is imperfect. Being imperfect means mistakes will be made, feelings will get hurt, actions will occur that cannot be undone. I recognize this on a pretty deep level so I consider myself a very forgiving person.

Self-forgiveness is something else entirely. I'm a little more hard and unforgiving with myself. I expect a little more perfection (sometimes to an unreasonable degree) of myself and it's something I work on overcoming and improving. Patience is a lesson I learn time and again. :)

If I do hurt someone through careless words or actions, I apologize immediately. It's rare that I actually ask for forgiveness because my apologies are heartfelt and it's completely up to the other person to decide how they'd like to feel about me. Either they accept my very honest admission of fault and the dialog that always ensues or they don't. The forgiveness there is really about whether I can forgive myself for being so careless.

I do worry that people cling to this idea of forgiveness as if it's something that will set them free, as if it's something they need to give away after someone has "earned" it. I'm looking at this through my very tiny lens of the world (so I may read something in the other posts that changes my ideas on this), but forgiveness is rarely about the other person. They may ask for it, and you may grant it, but ultimately the real growth happens inside you when you truly let it go or you don't.

Horribly painful things have been done to me in the past, but I never felt compelled to hold on to it and keep hatred or spite in my heart. Those folks have their own karma to deal with. By letting go and simply removing them from my life (while wishing them compassion), I am able to grow and shed that old self to become someone that is wiser and kinder for it.

Great thread. Very thought-provoking. I'm not sure I said everything the way I intended, but I am off to read everyone else's posts!

[Gemme]

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?

I am not a very forgiving person, either for myself or for others. I give what has been referred to as 'mafia love'...you have to prove your worthy and then you are in for life until you mess up and then you are out like Project Runway. :blink:

I rarely do second chances for medium-sized goofs and never for huge ones like cheating, etc.

I think it's a great idea, though, and know that it's helped many people overcome terrible circumstances. I just haven't reached that level of maturity in this life, though.

[Mitmo01]

I am not a very forgiving person, either for myself or for others. I give what has been referred to as 'mafia love'...you have to prove your worthy and then you are in for life until you mess up and then you are out like Project Runway. :blink:

I rarely do second chances for medium-sized goofs and never for huge ones like cheating, etc.

I think it's a great idea, though, and know that it's helped many people overcome terrible circumstances. I just haven't reached that level of maturity in this life, though.

Wow I think I know exactly what your talking about here Gemme, its very weird with me Im totally like this....

Once you cross some kind of internal line with me then its over....

For me forgiveness is something I def have to work on, both giving and recieving..

when i look at the subject from an academic view its somthing entirely different than what lays next to my heart...but I strive for self examination and forgiveness is something I intrinsically know will be hard for me always...

I want to be someone who is always open to examining my actions and if I desire forgiveness for whatever it is Ive done...then I have to be able to give that as well and sometimes its so hard when my emotions are involved since im def an emotional creature...

when I think about forgiveness from a global view its a much different story..

I have been emotionally humbled by reading about the Truth and Reconcilliation Commissions in South Africa and Rwanda.I have been emotionally humbled by reading Elie Weisel and Primo Levi...and I have met in person, talked to and cried like a baby in front of Holocaust survivors when I attended various events....They allowed me to see some kind of hope or something in thier existence that has and always will strike to the core of my being..I worked with someone who escaped literally as machine guns were blazing at him from the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and we talked about where he was from and what he went through and I remember thinking to myself that I really needed to listen to what he was telling me and absorb that for life



something about the capacity for forgiveness makes me cry like a baby as well....

That people whose lives have been destroyed and yet somehow they find it in themselves to allow that forgiveness just makes me realize how much more I have to learn about life and love...

[Hack]

I think forgiveness and the ability to forgive is a highly personal journey and experience.

For me, forgiveness is the single most liberating and cleansing thing.

I hold a grudge for about a mili-second. It takes a lot -- a lot -- to make me angry.

I'm all about doing what I can to move my life forward. Anger, grudges, etc...I see that stuff as weight holding me down. I can't accept it for myself.

[Queerasfck]

I have forgiven Jesus.

[Blade]

I pulled this from my post on a different thread, because I got a lot of feed back and we have a lot of new people since I made this post.

What Forgiveness is not
Forgiveness is not condoning unkindness
Forgiveness is not forgetting that what happened was painful
Forgiveness is not excusing poor behavior
Forgiveness is not denying or minimizing your hurt
Forgiveness does not mean reconciling with the offender
Forgiveness does not mean you give up having feelings


What is Forgiveness
Forgiveness is for you not the offender
Forgiveness is taking back your power
Forgiveness is taking responsibility for how you feel
Forgiveness is about your healing not about the person that hurt you
Forgiveness is a trainable skill just like learning to throw a ball
Forgiveness is a choice
Forgiveness is becoming the hero instead of the victim

[Ryobi]

I think forgiveness and the ability to forgive is a highly personal journey and experience.

For me, forgiveness is the single most liberating and cleansing thing.

I hold a grudge for about a mili-second. It takes a lot -- a lot -- to make me angry.

I'm all about doing what I can to move my life forward. Anger, grudges, etc...I see that stuff as weight holding me down. I can't accept it for myself.

I really like this post. I feel much the same about it.

If I find myself where I need to forgive someone, I'm probably angry about it. I do have a process I go through. I try to figure out why the person did what they did. I look at myself first, then I will ask them. If they're not willing to help me in the process of forgiving them, I will move on and do what I need to do for me. (yes, the whole process is for ME) As I work through it, if I loved that person, sometimes the process is more painful than the offense. I know when I have forgiven them, I won't love them the same as I once did. I don't like that but, I can definitely deal with it. The more I love them, the longer the process takes.
I don't believe in forgive and forget. I practice forgive, forgive, and don't forget. If I'm forgiving someone, I forgive the person, I forgive the offense, and I don't forget what kind of capabilities that person has for hurting others. I won't expose myself to it again.
If I need to forgive me, I forgive myself, I forgive the offense, and I don't forget the pain I have caused people. I do some soul searching in hopes of losing some of my capabilities.

I might be back with more thoughts.

[Ryobi]

I have no judgment whether someone forgives or not. I wonder though, for the folks who don't forgive, (or can't forgive) do you expect forgiveness from others? Does it matter to you if you are forgiven or not?

[Soft*Silver]

I want to address Ryobi's question. I forgive. Just not carte blanche. Some things are not meant to be forgiven. If you read my post you will see I talk about me not expecting others to always forgive me. I have very few unforgivables. One burns in me with lava anger..a resentment and it is toxic to my sobriety if I dont work on it. Resentments are NEVER good. This is an example of anger being mixed with unforigiveness. I am dealing with it on a daily level. I hope maybe one day of it not being lava like at least.

I have one other person I have forgiven for many things but one thing I will not forgive her for. I know why she did what she did. I know it was bad judgement on her part and she really wasnt schooled to be any more than this action. I know she couldnt give what she herself was never given. Had she even said she was sorry I could forgive. But that never came. I know she couldnt because she couldnt see or if she could, hoped I couldnt see, how wrong her behavior was. I speak of my mother. Of all the things wrong she did (and she did many many things right) she did one thing that remains the most hurtful of all things ever done to me. I will not forgive her. But I dont hate her. In my unforgiveness I hold her close to my own heart and weep that she could not have been a happier person or have been loved better herself so she could have known how wrong this was. I dont hold it against it. It does not seperate who we are to one another. but the action was deadly to my soul and to forgive her of her deed, would be to betray me to myself. I will not do that either. But I will not stop loving her. In fact, I love her more because of it. Can you understand?

I have recently contacted most of my exes in preparation to do my ammends. Well, actually I have begun some. All of them were glad to hear from me. We let the past lay on the ground like autumn leaves. We move closer to death than to life in our age brackets and we have come to realize forgiveness is a blessing and a gift. None of us want to go to our grave hating the other. Or resenting. Or having ill feelings. What matters is we are happy NOW. And what we found in each other that caused us to love each other, can now once again be shared but in a simpler, less intense, and less familiar way.

when I close my eyes for the final time, I want my grandchildren to remember me with love and light, not hurt and pain. Its how I remember my mother that way. Certainly my father too. I hope to get to a place where forgiveness isnt what necessary but acceptance is. It was what it was. I want to close my eyes and know the life I led was a good one, if not a perfect one. And what would make it good would be the lessons I learned and passed onto those whom I loved.



I have no judgment whether someone forgives or not. I wonder though, for the folks who don't forgive, (or can't forgive) do you expect forgiveness from others? Does it matter to you if you are forgiven or not?

[princessbelle]

I'm really tired tonight and not quite sure this will make a whole lot of sense...but, i've been thinking about this thread a lot and what i think and it's made me really look deep inside and try to articulate a response.

I have come to the conclusion that i can do one of two things when faced with someone who has wronged me.

I can forgive and forget. It depends on the person, the action and whether or not this person is someone I want to keep in my life or at least keeping that door open. It depends on their remorse or at least an acknowledgment of doing wrong. In doing that I can forgive their action whether it be one of haste, not thinking, anger, self centeredness, caty or just plain stupid. These actions i am willing to forgive and forget.

Or...

I can forget and not forgive. These are the situations in my life that people have passed through the portals on my journey only to bring harm, hurt, dishonesty, thinking they are better than, mental anguish and or physical abuse. I decided long ago that these people do not deserve my forgiveness and forgetting they exist is the best way for me to simply rise above their cause of suffering and gift myself with putting them out of my mind. I have learned i am totally capable of doing this. Closing a door on someone is forgetting them. Not dwelling on their behaviour or trying to figure it out is my way of coping. I will not take the energy to forgive them and I will not allow these types of people into my life....into my journey...into my head and heart. I close the door tight....they are forgotten but never forgiven.

[rlin]

Or...

I can forget and not forgive. These are the situations in my life that people have passed through the portals on my journey only to bring harm, hurt, dishonesty, thinking they are better than, mental anguish and or physical abuse. I decided long ago that these people do not deserve my forgiveness and forgetting they exist is the best way for me to simply rise above their cause of suffering and gift myself with putting them out of my mind. I have learned i am totally capable of doing this. Closing a door on someone is forgetting them. Not dwelling on their behaviour or trying to figure it out is my way of coping. I will not take the energy to forgive them and I will not allow these types of people into my life....into my journey...into my head and heart. I close the door tight....they are forgotten but never forgiven.

belle...:rrose:
this is pure genius... all my life i have of course heard the converse... to forgive but not forget... its obvious when you say this that you have it the correct way...
if i can forgive them...i may as well forget it... but if i cant forgive them... i damned sure owe it to myself to forget... why should i punish myself for something someone put on me? excellent premise...
i am a little tired myself... but... i had to tell you that i really admire this statement...
you are obviously a really smart lady...

b

[DamonK]

Forgiveness is a bitter thing for me.

I've done things I don't expect forgiveness for. Things have been done that I am unable to forgive.

I do believe in forgiveness. However I don't believe in forgetting. Inability to forget doesn't mean I hold a grudge. I don't think of the transgression every time the offender is seen. But the betrayal is remembered and things may change slightly to ensure that doesn't happen again. For example, I am lied to. From then on, I make take what that person says with a grain of salt.

A more extreme example... my abuser. He's forgiven. It's not forgotten. I will socialize with him, but I will avoid being alone with him for any extended period of time.

For me.. sometimes the overall person outweighs the betrayal.

However, I never forgive for them. I do it so it doesn't eat me alive.

[Sachita]

I'm really tired tonight and not quite sure this will make a whole lot of sense...but, i've been thinking about this thread a lot and what i think and it's made me really look deep inside and try to articulate a response.

I have come to the conclusion that i can do one of two things when faced with someone who has wronged me.

I can forgive and forget. It depends on the person, the action and whether or not this person is someone I want to keep in my life or at least keeping that door open. It depends on their remorse or at least an acknowledgment of doing wrong. In doing that I can forgive their action whether it be one of haste, not thinking, anger, self centeredness, caty or just plain stupid. These actions i am willing to forgive and forget.

Or...

I can forget and not forgive. These are the situations in my life that people have passed through the portals on my journey only to bring harm, hurt, dishonesty, thinking they are better than, mental anguish and or physical abuse. I decided long ago that these people do not deserve my forgiveness and forgetting they exist is the best way for me to simply rise above their cause of suffering and gift myself with putting them out of my mind. I have learned i am totally capable of doing this. Closing a door on someone is forgetting them. Not dwelling on their behaviour or trying to figure it out is my way of coping. I will not take the energy to forgive them and I will not allow these types of people into my life....into my journey...into my head and heart. I close the door tight....they are forgotten but never forgiven.

We are a like on this. It really depends on the person and situation. There is a certain level of deception I find insane and if I encounter it I forget. Forgiving isnt anywhere in the equation. I simple shut the door and try to put it out of my mind. Ok, maybe I dwell on it a few days wondering WTF and try to figure out why I attracted such nonsense into my life in the first place. I try and grasp the lesson, if there is one and forget.

Then you have forgive, let go but never forget.

I have people in my life today I forgive over and over. Someone might thing its crazy but I know the essence of that human isnt bad and they just cant help themselves. I put it in a whole different perspective but at the same time I never let them get too close to me because then its an issue of trust.

It took me a long time to forgive myself on some things but I did.

[skeeter_01]

I believe that for each lifetime I live, I'm supposed to be learning a lesson and I'm SURE that this life time my lesson is forgiveness...forgiving others and myself..

When I have a hard time letting go of anger towards others, it ruins MY day..not theirs! They live up in this empty head of mine rent free until I'm willing to let go of my anger towards them...

When I have to forgive myself that's a whole other beast entirely...I have a tendency to let the voice of my mother come into this empty head and fill it with words that are hurtful and hateful...that's the hardest voice to get rid of...

but i'm learning....i'm learning...slowwwwwwwwly!!....LOL!!

skeet

[Isadora]

It is really hard to admit what I am not good at this mostly because of the judgmental attitudes of people who do not understand my history. Making assumptions about how or who or what I forgive or don't is also harmful to me.

I certainly understand the need to forgive. I understand the need to be at peace inside. They are not mutually exclusive. In some ways hanging onto anger or rage and using it to make changes has been the major channel for me.

As a retired social worker who worked with abused women, men and children, some things are unforgivable. Some things are unforgettable. I just want to make sure they/us are not blamed or deemed "less than" for not forgiving unspeakable horrors. My scars are literally a daily reminder of my abuse. Abuse whether mental, physical, emotional is not acceptable in any form. Forgiving it is not an option for me.

[Julie]

It is really hard to admit what I am not good at this mostly because of the judgmental attitudes of people who do not understand my history. Making assumptions about how or who or what I forgive or don't is also harmful to me.

I certainly understand the need to forgive. I understand the need to be at peace inside. They are not mutually exclusive. In some ways hanging onto anger or rage and using it to make changes has been the major channel for me.

As a retired social worker who worked with abused women, men and children, some things are unforgivable. Some things are unforgettable. I just want to make sure they/us are not blamed or deemed "less than" for not forgiving unspeakable horrors. My scars are literally a daily reminder of my abuse. Abuse whether mental, physical, emotional is not acceptable in any form. Forgiving it is not an option for me.

You touch on such important issues here. We all heal differently and at various speeds. The same goes with forgiveness. Nobody should be judged for how they process their own personal hurts.

I do think, perpetuating it by taking on the "eye for an eye," can be damaging most to yourself. Which is why I need to let things go. It is damaging enough to be hurt, it is even more damaging to oneself to continue it. (for me, no judgment here).

As you know from your work. I was (not literally) one of the women who you counselled... In order for me to heal through my emotional scars of my abuse, I needed to forgive those who perpetrated them. When asked to speak publicly of my abuse and how I worked through it - when I told them part of my healing was forgiving - I was told I was wrong and in a sense giving permission back to them to repeat their abuse. That it was WRONG to forgive the abuser. For some people, this is wrong - for me, it was part of my healing.

I met a mother who forgave the man who raped and killed her daughter, at the same meeting I was at. She taught me a lot, this woman. As a mother, I do not know if I could forgive someone who harmed my children. I am not sure how she did it. But, when she spoke to me and I saw the peace in her eyes and could feel it.. I clearly understood. She also said... If she continued to be the victim of this great crime, then she would continue the abuse of her daughter. I also understood this, from my own experience.

They would continue to WIN every single moment of my life, if I carried the "victim," within me.

Julie

[Isadora]

You touch on such important issues here. We all heal differently and at various speeds. The same goes with forgiveness. Nobody should be judged for how they process their own personal hurts.

I do think, perpetuating it by taking on the "eye for an eye," can be damaging most to yourself. Which is why I need to let things go. It is damaging enough to be hurt, it is even more damaging to oneself to continue it. (for me, no judgment here).

As you know from your work. I was (not literally) one of the women who you counselled... In order for me to heal through my emotional scars of my abuse, I needed to forgive those who perpetrated them. When asked to speak publicly of my abuse and how I worked through it - when I told them part of my healing was forgiving - I was told I was wrong and in a sense giving permission back to them to repeat their abuse. That it was WRONG to forgive the abuser. For some people, this is wrong - for me, it was part of my healing.

I met a mother who forgave the man who raped and killed her daughter, at the same meeting I was at. She taught me a lot, this woman. As a mother, I do not know if I could forgive someone who harmed my children. I am not sure how she did it. But, when she spoke to me and I saw the peace in her eyes and could feel it.. I clearly understood. She also said... If she continued to be the victim of this great crime, then she would continue the abuse of her daughter. I also understood this, from my own experience.

They would continue to WIN every single moment of my life, if I carried the "victim," within me.

Julie

As I worked for many years in the field, I have helped others forgive and feel healed. I have also worked with those who can not forgive and know that they felt heard and healed in their own way.

The greatest thing about being human is that we are all so unique in our ability to heal ourselves. I am not victim. I am a survivor and I feel a wee bit shamed...that for not being a forgiving some things, I am less...this is always the vulnerable part of admitting what you can't or won't do. I do not normally believe in "eye for eye" because, fuck I would be blind. lol I certainly did not mean to come across that way. But saying this I also believe that if a man and his five buddies are fucking his 4 year old daughter it is unforgivable and imagining him in prison is a wee bit of eye for eye. 30 some years of working with incest and childhood abuse survivors has colored my perspective of forgiving. Yay for those who can, yay for those who use their hurt and anger to be better people, yay for those who just get through one day after another without nightmares.

[Julie]

As I worked for many years in the field, I have helped others forgive and feel healed. I have also worked with those who can not forgive and know that they felt heard and healed in their own way.

The greatest thing about being human is that we are all so unique in our ability to heal ourselves. I am not victim. I am a survivor and I feel a wee bit shamed...that for not being a forgiving some things, I am less...this is always the vulnerable part of admitting what you can't or won't do. I do not normally believe in "eye for eye" because, fuck I would be blind. lol I certainly did not mean to come across that way. But saying this I also believe that if a man and his five buddies are fucking his 4 year old daughter it is unforgivable and imagining him in prison is a wee bit of eye for eye. 30 some years of working with incest and childhood abuse survivors has colored my perspective of forgiving. Yay for those who can, yay for those who use their hurt and anger to be better people, yay for those who just get through one day after another without nightmares.

The bottom line... Matters not how we heal, as long as we do. Thank you for sharing your experiences with me and others. This in itself opens us up for feeling vulnerable - There is so much we can all learn from one another. And honestly, there is no shame - not when it comes to our personal healing... We really sometimes just do the best we can.

[julieisafemme]

As I worked for many years in the field, I have helped others forgive and feel healed. I have also worked with those who can not forgive and know that they felt heard and healed in their own way.

The greatest thing about being human is that we are all so unique in our ability to heal ourselves. I am not victim. I am a survivor and I feel a wee bit shamed...that for not being a forgiving some things, I am less...this is always the vulnerable part of admitting what you can't or won't do. I do not normally believe in "eye for eye" because, fuck I would be blind. lol I certainly did not mean to come across that way. But saying this I also believe that if a man and his five buddies are fucking his 4 year old daughter it is unforgivable and imagining him in prison is a wee bit of eye for eye. 30 some years of working with incest and childhood abuse survivors has colored my perspective of forgiving. Yay for those who can, yay for those who use their hurt and anger to be better people, yay for those who just get through one day after another without nightmares.

I don't feel you are less. If that matters. I have similar feelings about things in my life. I don't feel I am bitter or carrying any bad emotions. I see forgiveness more for those I love. If someone is not important to me then I don't see the need to forgive them. It sort of makes the act they are guilty of more important than it should be. And apologies are hollow in some situations. I got the apology I thought I wanted and it left me cold inside. Nothing healed. What healed me was relinquishing the gulit I felt for having been chosen by the man who hurt me. It was more about forgiving myself.

[Apocalipstic]

It is really hard to admit what I am not good at this mostly because of the judgmental attitudes of people who do not understand my history. Making assumptions about how or who or what I forgive or don't is also harmful to me.

I certainly understand the need to forgive. I understand the need to be at peace inside. They are not mutually exclusive. In some ways hanging onto anger or rage and using it to make changes has been the major channel for me.

As a retired social worker who worked with abused women, men and children, some things are unforgivable. Some things are unforgettable. I just want to make sure they/us are not blamed or deemed "less than" for not forgiving unspeakable horrors. My scars are literally a daily reminder of my abuse. Abuse whether mental, physical, emotional is not acceptable in any form. Forgiving it is not an option for me.

I agree with you and my therapist and I have discussed this at length. Especially when really bad, traumatic things happen in our childhoods, we still bear the scars literally/physically/mentally no matter how old we are. Often our bodies begin to attack themselves as we age if we endured horrific events as children, so to just say forgive, or that you have to forgive to be healed is naive and sounds kind of heartless to be honest.

When I started back to therapy this time I did not know what forgiveness even meant either (thank you Nat!) Or even the difference between thoughts, feelings and emotions. I am slowly working it out and have gone from furious to really sad about my childhood, which according to therapist is way better. I am not seeking to forgive or to understand because there is no logic. I am seeking to heal and get past.

Therapist agrees that some things are unforgivable. Things that happened when I was too young to have had a hand in them. Things that are just too terrible....and I don't mean lying and cheating...those things I can forgive easily.

Now some people stress me out and I am not friends with any more. It is not that I don't forgive them, I just don't feel relaxed around them and life is too short for all that. We may just be in different places and that is OK. :)

Forgiving myself? I have been incredibly hard on myself, but am working on getting past that.

I am trying to look at each day as a brand new start.

[Apocalipstic]

I don't feel you are less. If that matters. I have similar feelings about things in my life. I don't feel I am bitter or carrying any bad emotions. I see forgiveness more for those I love. If someone is not important to me then I don't see the need to forgive them. It sort of makes the act they are guilty of more important than it should be. And apologies are hollow in some situations. I got the apology I thought I wanted and it left me cold inside. Nothing healed. What healed me was relinquishing the gulit I felt for having been chosen by the man who hurt me. It was more about forgiving myself.

Great point!

If I don't love someone, then forgiveness is kind of empty.

[AtLast]

Great point!

If I don't love someone, then forgiveness is kind of empty.

Part of me disagrees with this (but, I certainly get the big difference between loving someone). For me, forgiveness is linked to my spiritual balance. Therefore, keeping any of the negative energy that coulod keep me from letting go of ugly bitterness which hurts me internally (this part has nothing to do with the other person), then it best for me to let go of that energy. That is not empty to me and might be freeing in ways that are helpful.

I guess the main thing for me is about not carrying around anything that just continues to impact with my own growth. That is when I have felt that I continue to have the negative that my abuser or someone that treated me unfairly had over me. Hanging its ugly head still. I want to look someone in the eyes and say you have no effect over me anymore, period!

I don't know, so much of the "static" in life now is just not worth my dealing with anymore. A gift of aging! A gift of having many tough things happen that I just can't allow to overtake me because I know the consequences to myself are far too high.

The main thin with forgiveness for me is the realization that is has nothing to do with rendering someone else free of of their abusive or unfair behavior. It has everything to do with my living my life more positively.

[Apocalipstic]

Part of me disagrees with this (but, I certainly get the big difference between loving someone). For me, forgiveness is linked to my spiritual balance. Therefore, keeping any of the negative energy that could keep me from letting go of ugly bitterness which hurts me internally (this part has nothing to do with the other person), then it best for me to let go of that energy. That is not empty to me and might be freeing in ways that are helpful.

I guess the main thing for me is about not carrying around anything that just continues to impact with my own growth. That is when I have felt that I continue to have the negative that my abuser or someone that treated me unfairly had over me. Hanging its ugly head still. I want to look someone in the eyes and say you have no effect over me anymore, period!

I don't know, so much of the "static" in life now is just not worth my dealing with anymore. A gift of aging! A gift of having many tough things happen that I just can't allow to overtake me because I know the consequences to myself are far too high.

The main thin with forgiveness for me is the realization that is has nothing to do with rendering someone else free of of their abusive or unfair behavior. It has everything to do with my living my life more positively.

Good point. Maybe it would have been better to say that unless I love a person I don't care enough to hold bitterness or to need to forgive.

Do you think that it is important to look someone in the eye and tell them they have no hold anymore? This is problematic for me, because the person who abused me is dead.

I am trying to understand and get past my anger for the people who placed me in that vulnerable position and those who knew what was going on and did nothing to help me. I have reached the point where I am just profoundly sad rather than angry.

[EnderD_503]

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?

I'm not sure I really see forgiveness in the same way many people have expressed in this thread. For me, not forgiving someone does not mean I continue to spend all my waking hours or much time at all begrudging an act. I don't see it as some liberating act that allows you to move on from whatever wrong was done to you. There is little room for that particular word in my vocabulary, largely because I find it a useless word in my own life's context, and I'm not sure it has much use outside of a religious or spiritual context. Perhaps I am too reminded of the OE "forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum," and in a way reflects how I've always felt about forgiveness and guilt.

I can actually only think of one instance in my life that really relates to this subject. I am not a person that becomes offended by much of anything, since I see little use in feeling offended by an act or a word or a person. That would be a failure to understand the interpretation of each person's deeds or words as a part of a certain system, and I don't think any given system has any particular moral merit. If I am to be offended, we must both be operating under the same system, and my own does not recognise offense.

Most of the time when someone commits some kind of wrong against me, whether theft, backstabbing, violence or any similar act, I don't find myself thinking about forgiveness. Once the act is done, it is done, and in most cases those people have admitted to what they've done, though whether they've considered it an offense is another story. Those who have not, I haven't felt the need to begrudge, and upon realising that the act was due to some problem they were having, I've even attempted to help them overcome it, since I see more value in overcoming than blaming or forgiving. Every negative action/action that infringes upon the freedom of another that a human being commits has a cause, and often that cause is some kind of negative event that affected them, or perhaps a chemical imbalance and that person may keeping acting a certain way as long as they hold on to that negative past, negative influence or refuse to recognise their condition. Even for them, it is not about forgiving, but about overcoming that event or influence. If that person doesn't take the intiative to free themselves, then I cease to give a flying fuck. I don't forgive them because forgiveness is not an issue, but they are rarely, if ever, brought to mind, and when they are brought to mind, I won't feel any anger against them.

There is one person on this earth that is the epitome of this, and that person is my own father, who was negatively affected by his own father before him. This is why I take issue with victim/victimiser arguments, because very often victims continue to perpetuate the cycle, whether becoming aggressors themselves, or by continuing to remain stuck in the victim mentality. We are also talking about the acts themselves versus those who commit those acts, and we are also talking about placing meaning upon otherwise meaningless acts. Going back to the original OE of the Lord's Prayer, this notion of "forgiv[ing] us our guilts" seems to be like some kind of confessional of erasing the acts so that one may continue toward some good grace. Furthermore, what is it that we are forgiving? In the original OE Lord's Prayer, it is the guilt that is forgiven, which has many connotations, but largely centres around a person's own perception of a deed they themselves have committed, or which has been committed toward another.

Going back to how this affects my refusal to forgive my father, I don't think the forgiveness of some "guilty deed" works for either of us: a) because he does not admit to having ever committed any wrong against me, and b) because I don't believe in his guilt or that some moral transgression occurred, but simply that the cycle affected me negatively and that I need to overcome it.

So what else do we forgive, if not a guilt? An act? If so, my father continues to deny he was ever physically abusive toward me, and, on top of that, his family has erased the acts they witnessed over many years from their minds. As for myself, despite that very few people in my family will even recognise my childhood, I still know that my father committed these acts. Do they need to be forgiven? What is forgiveness and is what I experience even remotely related to this rather subjective and archaic term? Do I continue to be angry with or resent my father? It's hard to say if I feel anything toward him at all, and I'm not sure that I continue to hold him in low regard because of his past actions or his present actions. I know all his actions and words, both present and past, are driven by his own intense sense of insecurity, which was the result of his own father. His insecurity in the past caused him to be physically abusive towards me and toward other children, while his insecurity today causes him to refuse self-examination, education and the ability to discuss anything without becoming emotionally invested, because his false sense of pride rests on a certain notion of himself. I know his insecurities because they plagued me as a child and as a teenager and even in my early 20's. I'd been stripped of my dignity repeatedly as a child, and was mortified of being stripped of it again. But unlike him I combated it, and today he, nor his past actions are of any importance to me, though in many respects my childhood doesn't exist for me, anymore. I continue to fight some of the remaining symptoms, but the symptoms are not him, they are not his actions, they are the result of things long rendered irrelevant, that have no logical reason for continued existence. The important thing is that I continue to fight against those symptoms (rather than against the past or him), while he resigned himself to them.

I think that is why I cannot claim to "forgive" him, while he is rarely in my thoughts, rarely in my actions, rarely in my life. Because I know that in order to overcome, one needs to fight. Nothing I can ever say to him will help him with his demons, nor erase the past. I know the feeling of a thousand tons of guilt and insecurity weighing on your mind, and its enough to drive you insane. But I've also learned to break through it with a strong awareness of my own insecurities, weaknesses, strengths, of my own situation and of what got me here to begin with. It's about having the courage to face that which you're most afraid to face in yourself. I think my refusal to "forgive" (and I am still not convinced this is the right word) is my refusal to allow such a past to be an excuse for actions in the future, because if he is excused, then I am excused. I do not excuse myself, but evolve mself. What I don't "forgive" in him is the fact that he allows his past to be his future.

As such, forgiveness of myself is a non-issue. Because the result of my childhood was the incessant feeling of guilt for no particular reason, I've come to see guilt in relation to myself as a psychological symptom rather than of anything practical that needs release. I think we need to overcome our own regretable acts, rather than forgive them, since there seems to be another kind of resignation attached to that forgiveness. Again, with me there is no release attached to forgiveness, as there seems to be with others. The closest thing to a ritual I have is destroying myself and any "beliefs" I may have so as to rebuild from the bottom up; some shadow of Cartesian or Derridean evolution. As such, I don't feel I am ever the same person that I was yesterday, and so I cannot really resign to any kind of forgiveness, since there is always that element of self-improvement. I knew less yesterday than I do today, and know less today than I will tomorrow.

If I am constantly evolving then forgiveness cannot exist. Whatever my self-perceived fault was yesterday, I am ammending today.

Thanks for this topic. I really enjoyed responding as well as the opportunity to examine my own thoughts on the subject. I hope I did not relinquish to much information, since that wasn't really the intent so much as to examine a portion of myself that most relates to the subject. Thanks again for the through-provoking topic.

[AtLast]

I'm not sure I really see forgiveness in the same way many people have expressed in this thread. For me, not forgiving someone does not mean I continue to spend all my waking hours or much time at all begrudging an act. I don't see it as some liberating act that allows you to move on from whatever wrong was done to you. There is little room for that particular word in my vocabulary, largely because I find it a useless word in my own life's context, and I'm not sure it has much use outside of a religious or spiritual context. Perhaps I am too reminded of the OE "forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum," and in a way reflects how I've always felt about forgiveness and guilt.

I can actually only think of one instance in my life that really relates to this subject. I am not a person that becomes offended by much of anything, since I see little use in feeling offended by an act or a word or a person. That would be a failure to understand the interpretation of each person's deeds or words as a part of a certain system, and I don't think any given system has any particular moral merit. If I am to be offended, we must both be operating under the same system, and my own does not recognise offense.

Most of the time when someone commits some kind of wrong against me, whether theft, backstabbing, violence or any similar act, I don't find myself thinking about forgiveness. Once the act is done, it is done, and in most cases those people have admitted to what they've done, though whether they've considered it an offense is another story. Those who have not, I haven't felt the need to begrudge, and upon realising that the act was due to some problem they were having, I've even attempted to help them overcome it, since I see more value in overcoming than blaming or forgiving. Every negative action/action that infringes upon the freedom of another that a human being commits has a cause, and often that cause is some kind of negative event that affected them, or perhaps a chemical imbalance and that person may keeping acting a certain way as long as they hold on to that negative past, negative influence or refuse to recognise their condition. Even for them, it is not about forgiving, but about overcoming that event or influence. If that person doesn't take the intiative to free themselves, then I cease to give a flying fuck. I don't forgive them because forgiveness is not an issue, but they are rarely, if ever, brought to mind, and when they are brought to mind, I won't feel any anger against them.

There is one person on this earth that is the epitome of this, and that person is my own father, who was negatively affected by his own father before him. This is why I take issue with victim/victimiser arguments, because very often victims continue to perpetuate the cycle, whether becoming aggressors themselves, or by continuing to remain stuck in the victim mentality. We are also talking about the acts themselves versus those who commit those acts, and we are also talking about placing meaning upon otherwise meaningless acts. Going back to the original OE of the Lord's Prayer, this notion of "forgiv[ing] us our guilts" seems to be like some kind of confessional of erasing the acts so that one may continue toward some good grace. Furthermore, what is it that we are forgiving? In the original OE Lord's Prayer, it is the guilt that is forgiven, which has many connotations, but largely centres around a person's own perception of a deed they themselves have committed, or which has been committed toward another.

Going back to how this affects my refusal to forgive my father, I don't think the forgiveness of some "guilty deed" works for either of us: a) because he does not admit to having ever committed any wrong against me, and b) because I don't believe in his guilt or that some moral transgression occurred, but simply that the cycle affected me negatively and that I need to overcome it.

So what else do we forgive, if not a guilt? An act? If so, my father continues to deny he was ever physically abusive toward me, and, on top of that, his family has erased the acts they witnessed over many years from their minds. As for myself, despite that very few people in my family will even recognise my childhood, I still know that my father committed these acts. Do they need to be forgiven? What is forgiveness and is what I experience even remotely related to this rather subjective and archaic term? Do I continue to be angry with or resent my father? It's hard to say if I feel anything toward him at all, and I'm not sure that I continue to hold him in low regard because of his past actions or his present actions. I know all his actions and words, both present and past, are driven by his own intense sense of insecurity, which was the result of his own father. His insecurity in the past caused him to be physically abusive towards me and toward other children, while his insecurity today causes him to refuse self-examination, education and the ability to discuss anything without becoming emotionally invested, because his false sense of pride rests on a certain notion of himself. I know his insecurities because they plagued me as a child and as a teenager and even in my early 20's. I'd been stripped of my dignity repeatedly as a child, and was mortified of being stripped of it again. But unlike him I combated it, and today he, nor his past actions are of any importance to me, though in many respects my childhood doesn't exist for me, anymore. I continue to fight some of the remaining symptoms, but the symptoms are not him, they are not his actions, they are the result of things long rendered irrelevant, that have no logical reason for continued existence. The important thing is that I continue to fight against those symptoms (rather than against the past or him), while he resigned himself to them.

I think that is why I cannot claim to "forgive" him, while he is rarely in my thoughts, rarely in my actions, rarely in my life. Because I know that in order to overcome, one needs to fight. Nothing I can ever say to him will help him with his demons, nor erase the past. I know the feeling of a thousand tons of guilt and insecurity weighing on your mind, and its enough to drive you insane. But I've also learned to break through it with a strong awareness of my own insecurities, weaknesses, strengths, of my own situation and of what got me here to begin with. It's about having the courage to face that which you're most afraid to face in yourself. I think my refusal to "forgive" (and I am still not convinced this is the right word) is my refusal to allow such a past to be an excuse for actions in the future, because if he is excused, then I am excused. I do not excuse myself, but evolve mself. What I don't "forgive" in him is the fact that he allows his past to be his future.

As such, forgiveness of myself is a non-issue. Because the result of my childhood was the incessant feeling of guilt for no particular reason, I've come to see guilt in relation to myself as a psychological symptom rather than of anything practical that needs release. I think we need to overcome our own regretable acts, rather than forgive them, since there seems to be another kind of resignation attached to that forgiveness. Again, with me there is no release attached to forgiveness, as there seems to be with others. The closest thing to a ritual I have is destroying myself and any "beliefs" I may have so as to rebuild from the bottom up; some shadow of Cartesian or Derridean evolution. As such, I don't feel I am ever the same person that I was yesterday, and so I cannot really resign to any kind of forgiveness, since there is always that element of self-improvement. I knew less yesterday than I do today, and know less today than I will tomorrow.

If I am constantly evolving then forgiveness cannot exist. Whatever my self-perceived fault was yesterday, I am ammending today.

Thanks for this topic. I really enjoyed responding as well as the opportunity to examine my own thoughts on the subject. I hope I did not relinquish to much information, since that wasn't really the intent so much as to examine a portion of myself that most relates to the subject. Thanks again for the through-provoking topic.


Lots here to ponder!

One area that I want to comment on is about victimization and perpetuation of abuse. The big problem here is that there are just no reliable studies based upon scientific method to demonstrate any relationship of victims as perps other than those that have been reported and prosecuted.

So, what about all of the people that were indeed abused (in various ways) and do not offend? We have no way of knowing what these numbers really are. There are anecdotal reports, but, that just doesn't give us much to go on.

What is sad about this to me is not having any kind of data to study how and why many victims of abuse do not fit the common belief structures of once a victim, then an offender. They do not go on to offend.

I was raised myself by parents that were abused and did not offend. In fact, something that was true of them was an uncanny sense of picking up on threats of abuse by others around myself and my siblings along with fierce protectiveness. In fact, I really listen to people I know with abuse histories in terms of their clueing in on a perpetrator. If they say something is creepy about someone, I take note. What are the differences in how these people navigate in the world and what is behind their ability to transcend the common stereotype of the abuse cycle? This is a big missing link!

I often think about what are the adaptive traits of someone that has an abuse history and does not offend? What is it about their nature that has provided them with the ability to see that they have choices about behavior?

[Apocalipstic]

Lots here to ponder!

One area that I want to comment on is about victimization and perpetuation of abuse. The big problem here is that there are just no reliable studies based upon scientific method to demonstrate any relationship of victims as perps other than those that have been reported and prosecuted.

So, what about all of the people that were indeed abused (in various ways) and do not offend? We have no way of knowing what these numbers really are. There are anecdotal reports, but, that just doesn't give us much to go on.

What is sad about this to me is not having any kind of data to study how and why many victims of abuse do not fit the common belief structures of once a victim, then an offender. They do not go on to offend.

I was raised myself by parents that were abused and did not offend. In fact, something that was true of them was an uncanny sense of picking up on threats of abuse by others around myself and my siblings along with fierce protectiveness. In fact, I really listen to people I know with abuse histories in terms of their clueing in on a perpetrator. If they say something is creepy about someone, I take note. What are the differences in how these people navigate in the world and what is behind their ability to transcend the common stereotype of the abuse cycle? This is a big missing link!

I often think about what are the adaptive traits of someone that has an abuse history and does not offend? What is it about their nature that has provided them with the ability to see that they have choices about behavior?

For me, I made some hard choices. Even as a child I knew I did not want to have children...just in case.

My goal in life is to be as different from my abuser as I can be. Thank you for saying what you did because many of us make it our life's goal to be different, to break the cycle.

We know when someone creeps us out...we know the signs. Sometimes when we are weak we might get involved with an abuser again, but we somehow manage to survive it and get out as quickly as possible.

We are survivors. We have faced our worst fear and survived and that we survived does not mean we are bound to repeat the cycle.

[Julie]

Part of me disagrees with this (but, I certainly get the big difference between loving someone). For me, forgiveness is linked to my spiritual balance. Therefore, keeping any of the negative energy that coulod keep me from letting go of ugly bitterness which hurts me internally (this part has nothing to do with the other person), then it best for me to let go of that energy. That is not empty to me and might be freeing in ways that are helpful.

I guess the main thing for me is about not carrying around anything that just continues to impact with my own growth. That is when I have felt that I continue to have the negative that my abuser or someone that treated me unfairly had over me. Hanging its ugly head still. I want to look someone in the eyes and say you have no effect over me anymore, period!

I don't know, so much of the "static" in life now is just not worth my dealing with anymore. A gift of aging! A gift of having many tough things happen that I just can't allow to overtake me because I know the consequences to myself are far too high.

The main thin with forgiveness for me is the realization that is has nothing to do with rendering someone else free of of their abusive or unfair behavior. It has everything to do with my living my life more positively.

You have articulated this so beautifully. I get a bit emotional when I think about it and try to put it into words that make any sense.

[Isadora]

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

[julieisafemme]

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

Isadora please take care of yourself. I do not see not forgiving as bad either. I think we might have a different take on it than others. I do know that forgiveness is a big part of my spiritual practice. I think there is no "right" way. Please don't take others ways of doing it as any comment on yours. I don't. And even if it is, they aren't living my life.

[IrishGrrl]

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

Isa, I"m with you on your feelings. I dont really see non forgivness as a negative either. I think there CAN be times when it will negativly impact you, but for me, my anger, rage, sadness, outrage has also spurred me on to great things. In a way it is the fire that feeds me at times. I dont think I would have survived without it, and it's now my dear close ally and friend, who is always there to give me strength when I dont feel I have any left.
The way I balance it all is, that I forgive what I can, and make no excuses or feel an ounce of guilt for what I cannot. Forgiveness is personal for me, and a private thing. I do not judge others on thier abilities to forgive or not. And I cant stand and wont listen long to someone preaching to me how I "NEED" to forgive.

[EnderD_503]

Lots here to ponder!

One area that I want to comment on is about victimization and perpetuation of abuse. The big problem here is that there are just no reliable studies based upon scientific method to demonstrate any relationship of victims as perps other than those that have been reported and prosecuted.

So, what about all of the people that were indeed abused (in various ways) and do not offend? We have no way of knowing what these numbers really are. There are anecdotal reports, but, that just doesn't give us much to go on.

What is sad about this to me is not having any kind of data to study how and why many victims of abuse do not fit the common belief structures of once a victim, then an offender. They do not go on to offend.

I was raised myself by parents that were abused and did not offend. In fact, something that was true of them was an uncanny sense of picking up on threats of abuse by others around myself and my siblings along with fierce protectiveness. In fact, I really listen to people I know with abuse histories in terms of their clueing in on a perpetrator. If they say something is creepy about someone, I take note. What are the differences in how these people navigate in the world and what is behind their ability to transcend the common stereotype of the abuse cycle? This is a big missing link!

I often think about what are the adaptive traits of someone that has an abuse history and does not offend? What is it about their nature that has provided them with the ability to see that they have choices about behavior?

I just wanted to interject and say that I did not limit the effects of abuse to victims becoming abusers themselves. I mentioned both sides of the coin as far as perpetuating the cycle: becoming abusers and remaining victims. While some who were abused take on the role of abusers, others remain in a state where they constantly consider themselves either as victims (actually, I would argue that many who become abusers become as such because they continue to see themselve as victims, and that is part of what they feel excuses their behaviour) or not worthy of anything beyond abuse. Both are equally dangerous, in my opinion. This does not necessarily mean that they enter into physically abusive (or even psychologically abusive) relationships, but affects how they go about their daily life and interact with others despite that this may never lead to being the victims of criminal offense or the perpetrators of criminal offense. I know one woman who was bullied as a child, and who appears to seek to recreate her high school/elementary school life, but with herself in the place of those who bullied her. She does not break any laws, but literally mimicks the same behaviour that alienated her from her peers. I don't think, at that point, it becomes about forgiving those bullies, but about coming to terms with what she endured, leaving behind her insecurities and taking control of her own life, instead of allowing past events to dictate it. However, I recognise that this, to anyone reading my post, would simply be hearsay as we can all say "I know something that blah blah blah," so I'll leave it at that.

You're correct that there are little to no studies regarding those who have not come into contact with the law, but, if I recall correctly, there have been numerous studies done linking victims of abuse to certain psychological disorders that later cause them to commit acts that may or may not be punished by law. I know that there are studies regarding how traumatic childhood events are linked to triggering hereditary forms of depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia among others that would have otherwise remained untriggered. How much this plays into continuing the cycle, I do not know.

I agree that there are many out there who do take control of their behaviour, and, therefore, their future. I think you pose a very good question though, about what it is that causes a person to see that they have a choice as far as how they choose to behave after the fact. I'm not sure I can really answer what exactly it is that causes a person to reflect, and therefore, choose to break a certain cycle. I think a big part of it is breaking out of the mentality that one is a victim, and into the understanding that one does have control. I'm at a loss as to what the missing puzzle piece is.

In other words, I think that experiencing abuse can result in an individual who either becomes an abuser him/herself and/or continues to consider him/herself a victim, and/or continues to consider him/herself worthless after the fact, or merely someone who is negatively affected by past abuse within their daily life, given the presence of a certain combination of factors...I remain at a loss as to what those factors are, or even what factors result in someone who manages to reflect and take control of their own behaviour. Very good, question, though. I'll think about it some more and try to add something later.

[Sam]

alot of great posts.

i dont usually forgive after betrayal.

but that is just me.

[Laerkin]

Wonderfully put and very much where I stand on the issue. I've seen some other very interesting posts that I'll need to mull over.

I would like to say that I certainly don't think my way is the only/best/"right" way. But forgiveness and growth and experience are tremendously personal. Some posts are resonating deeply for me and some posts are intriguing and thought-provoking because of how different they are from my personal experiences.

AtLastHome, I totally agree that forgiveness is a spiritual balance for me. Moving past negative energy and letting go allow me a freedom to grow and develop because of something challenging or hurtful.

As you said, this has everything to do with living a positive life with a healthy outlook (healthy meaning good for me and my path). It's not about the other person. They have their own things to figure out and I don't have a hand in that process.

Forgiveness, to me, is when I'm standing at a crossroads. Neither path is right or wrong, but one leads to emotional release and one leads to holding onto something (so I can obsess over it, or file it away for later, or learn from it, etc). When I choose to release it (and it might be something small and that crossroad lasted one millisecond or it might be something big and it's taken me months or years to reach the crossroads), it's no longer something I focus on or think about and I shift my energy towards something new.

I really am learning a lot from all of you. The various definitions, perspectives, and thoughts are really deep and personal and I'm seeing things through others eyes. Powerful stuff.



Part of me disagrees with this (but, I certainly get the big difference between loving someone). For me, forgiveness is linked to my spiritual balance. Therefore, keeping any of the negative energy that coulod keep me from letting go of ugly bitterness which hurts me internally (this part has nothing to do with the other person), then it best for me to let go of that energy. That is not empty to me and might be freeing in ways that are helpful.

I guess the main thing for me is about not carrying around anything that just continues to impact with my own growth. That is when I have felt that I continue to have the negative that my abuser or someone that treated me unfairly had over me. Hanging its ugly head still. I want to look someone in the eyes and say you have no effect over me anymore, period!

I don't know, so much of the "static" in life now is just not worth my dealing with anymore. A gift of aging! A gift of having many tough things happen that I just can't allow to overtake me because I know the consequences to myself are far too high.

The main thing with forgiveness for me is the realization that is has nothing to do with rendering someone else free of of their abusive or unfair behavior. It has everything to do with my living my life more positively.

[Mitmo01]

As I worked for many years in the field, I have helped others forgive and feel healed. I have also worked with those who can not forgive and know that they felt heard and healed in their own way.

The greatest thing about being human is that we are all so unique in our ability to heal ourselves. I am not victim. I am a survivor and I feel a wee bit shamed...that for not being a forgiving some things, I am less...this is always the vulnerable part of admitting what you can't or won't do. I do not normally believe in "eye for eye" because, fuck I would be blind. lol I certainly did not mean to come across that way. But saying this I also believe that if a man and his five buddies are fucking his 4 year old daughter it is unforgivable and imagining him in prison is a wee bit of eye for eye. 30 some years of working with incest and childhood abuse survivors has colored my perspective of forgiving. Yay for those who can, yay for those who use their hurt and anger to be better people, yay for those who just get through one day after another without nightmares.


I have to say that I do believe that some things are not forgiveable for me. I can reason the logic out in my head that forgiving is for the one who is damaged but somehow when it comes down to it....I have wanted to murder some people, I have wanted to rip them to pieces and that scumbag fucker that did that to the little 4 year old girl in my mind does not deserve that forgiveness....maybe thats my own fuckedupness I dont know its just I know intrinsically that I could not forgive someone like that.....Isadora I want to say that everything you wrote resonated with me...

I have to say that in that specific situation....with what I know about myself.....I would have exacted an eye for an eye...and I would be in prison...

[dark_crystal]

My goal in life is to be as different from my abuser as I can be. Thank you for saying what you did because many of us make it our life's goal to be different, to break the cycle.

i know you are going in a completely different direction with this than i am going to talk about, but this statement struck a tangential chord in me that i wanted to share:

During my adolescence and young adulthood, my mother and i went through a massive power struggle that was very damaging to me...it is not a new story but her personal issues with perfectionism and security meant that she clung to her authority for its own sake, and was never able to see past the insult of my questioning her and actually listen to me. She had a scorched-earth policy on any questioning of her and this meant that there was nothing too horrible to say in an argument if it meant she would win. Eventually i was hospitalized for three months for depression, substance abuse, and self-mutilation.

i spent my twenties trying to escape the hold of those damages by doing everything i could to be the opposite kind of person she is. Then i got to my thirties and realized that the persona i had created in doing this bore no resemblance to my authentic self, and that my authentic self is actually a lot like her. My forgiveness process has consisted of accepting her in me, and learning to value those qualities objectively

Now i mostly feel like what happened during my youth was extremely unfortunate, but mostly inevitable due to the way she herself was raised and the demons she struggles with that are totally about her and just spilled out all over me in a damaging and dangerous, but not malicious, way

I have recently contacted most of my exes in preparation to do my ammends.

aargh i am terrified of step nine. This is probably why i am spending so much time on step three!

Forgiveness in general is a very fraught issue for me. My mother's scorched-earth tactics, described above, have been echoed by a succession of similarly abusive partners. I am pathologically afraid of conflict and confrontation, because my experience has always been that questions and complaints start arguments that will quickly escalate out of all control.

To avoid this i automatically "forgive" everything. I have just learned that taking any even the most minor stand on an issue means gambling everything- my partners always learn that if they just escalate any issue to the point where they threaten to break up with me i will fold- even if i feel passionately about something, when they put it into the context of "either you buy me a playstation or i am leaving" i will think "i don't want to buy the playstation but it seems a trivial thing to break up over" and hand over my wallet.

But why do i take that onto myself? If they go to that place over a playstation it is them being trivial, not me!

But i can always see how they are not going to stop until they get their way and they are always willing to go lower than i am...and i am a very peace/security/comfort loving person and i just want the argument to end so i can crawl under a rock out of their way somewhere.

This looks like forgiveness because i have stopped complaining but it isn't really. And being so afraid of conflict means i never complain, and i end up with so much stockpiled hurt that there gets to be no way to possibly address it ALL, and the only thing to do is leave. I think i have left relationships that could have been saved because of this (my most recent ex was not abusive, but i was so traumatized by the time we got together that i was practically a robot. i started feeling unhappy 8 months into the relationship. if i could have told her we could have worked through each issue as it arose. i did not and they piled up and eventually there was that straw...)

in terms of becoming an offender i am facing this about myself, too. My self-esteem is LOW. In the past i have used relationships and sex to fill that hole. Also i am very concerned with security and safety and having a "daddy" to hide behind always seems like a route to safety.

This means that i have gotten into relationships because i need to be in a relationship and not because i truly love the person. Many times i have been willing to accept anyone who likes me because it is so unbelievable to me that someone could like me, i feel like i can't pass on any opportunity because i may never have another one.

This means i have used those people. I have not loved them for who they are, i have loved them for what they represent. I have not been able to see who they are because i was afraid if i looked too closely i would see something that didn't fit with what i needed them to be

This is me abusing them. And their awareness of how badly i needed to be with someone, anyone, is how they knew how to control me. And their subconscious awareness that i was using them made it that much easier to abuse me...and it has been a cycle that repeats endlessly. I need to forgive myslef for abusing them, and i need to forgive them based on how my using them set us both up for dysfunction.

i have recognized it though! After my last breakup i swore to stay out of relationships for at least a year so i could unpack all my baggage and stop doing this to people. That year was up last Saturday. Unfortunately i didn't actually start therapy until 8 months into that year so i probably still have another eight months to go AT LEAST

and who knows how long it will really be, because right now my thinking any time a potential relationship glimmers is "IT'S A TRAP!!!!! RUN!"

ok i see that i have rambled on about a lot of stuff besides forgiveness

forgive me?

[AtLast]

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

It doesn't stop YOUR growth. It hinders mine. I sure didn't mean to imply that what gives me balance is what is true for everyone. Actually, I don't see this with anyone's post here.

Although, sometimes it is a good idea to make it clear that we are speaking about our own experiences and goals- and not placing ideas on others. I hope you remain here because you always contribute so much to discussions.

[AtLast]

I just wanted to interject and say that I did not limit the effects of abuse to victims becoming abusers themselves. I mentioned both sides of the coin as far as perpetuating the cycle: becoming abusers and remaining victims. While some who were abused take on the role of abusers, others remain in a state where they constantly consider themselves either as victims (actually, I would argue that many who become abusers become as such because they continue to see themselve as victims, and that is part of what they feel excuses their behaviour) or not worthy of anything beyond abuse. Both are equally dangerous, in my opinion. This does not necessarily mean that they enter into physically abusive (or even psychologically abusive) relationships, but affects how they go about their daily life and interact with others despite that this may never lead to being the victims of criminal offense or the perpetrators of criminal offense. I know one woman who was bullied as a child, and who appears to seek to recreate her high school/elementary school life, but with herself in the place of those who bullied her. She does not break any laws, but literally mimicks the same behaviour that alienated her from her peers. I don't think, at that point, it becomes about forgiving those bullies, but about coming to terms with what she endured, leaving behind her insecurities and taking control of her own life, instead of allowing past events to dictate it. However, I recognise that this, to anyone reading my post, would simply be hearsay as we can all say "I know something that blah blah blah," so I'll leave it at that.

You're correct that there are little to no studies regarding those who have not come into contact with the law, but, if I recall correctly, there have been numerous studies done linking victims of abuse to certain psychological disorders that later cause them to commit acts that may or may not be punished by law. I know that there are studies regarding how traumatic childhood events are linked to triggering hereditary forms of depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia among others that would have otherwise remained untriggered. How much this plays into continuing the cycle, I do not know.

I agree that there are many out there who do take control of their behaviour, and, therefore, their future. I think you pose a very good question though, about what it is that causes a person to see that they have a choice as far as how they choose to behave after the fact. I'm not sure I can really answer what exactly it is that causes a person to reflect, and therefore, choose to break a certain cycle. I think a big part of it is breaking out of the mentality that one is a victim, and into the understanding that one does have control. I'm at a loss as to what the missing puzzle piece is.

In other words, I think that experiencing abuse can result in an individual who either becomes an abuser him/herself and/or continues to consider him/herself a victim, and/or continues to consider him/herself worthless after the fact, or merely someone who is negatively affected by past abuse within their daily life, given the presence of a certain combination of factors...I remain at a loss as to what those factors are, or even what factors result in someone who manages to reflect and take control of their own behaviour. Very good, question, though. I'll think about it some more and try to add something later.

Oh yes- victims of abuse and personality disorders and an array of psychological problems can exist. Studies do demonstrate this, but, to generalize this might be a mistake. We all have different ways of adapting and coping with things that have happened to us. There could be real differences in how class, race, ethnicity and gender mix in all of this, too.
Not to mention the development of learned helplessness that can keep us from breaking feelings of remaining a victim.

One of the things I really like about the 3rd/4th wave feminist character (Lisbeth Salander) in Larsson's Millennium Trilogy is how she transcends her victimization, and not simply survives, but indeed, gets even! Now, in real-life, some of her tactics would just land her in prison and rightfully so- but her perpetrators certainly did not serve time for their abuse. I'm thinking more about her personality development in terms of knowing she does not have to remain under the control of her abusers. Sort of interesting that Larsson wrote these books as the result of witnessing a gang rape of a woman when he was 15 years old (which left him deeply concerned with the horrors of sexual violence against both women and men- the original title of the forst book in the trilogy was "Men Who Hate Women" which was changed to "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" - probably a marketing thing...).

[Gemme]

I have no judgment whether someone forgives or not. I wonder though, for the folks who don't forgive, (or can't forgive) do you expect forgiveness from others? Does it matter to you if you are forgiven or not?

Nope. I don't expect what I can't or won't give. It might be nice to hear 'you are forgiven' from someone I felt I wronged, but it wouldn't be FOR me, so I can't really say that it matters to me if someone forgives me or not. If someone forgives me for a wrong I did, then that is good for them. It's to help them, not me.

See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.

I wish you wouldn't. Your view is not a singular one.

I don't forgive and I really don't think it's hindered me overall. Sure, I could probably be a bit more zen-like if I forgave more but I'm okay. Some days, great. And that is good enough for me. It's all about what we need, individually, to get through, isn't it?

Isa, I"m with you on your feelings. I dont really see non forgivness as a negative either. I think there CAN be times when it will negativly impact you, but for me, my anger, rage, sadness, outrage has also spurred me on to great things. In a way it is the fire that feeds me at times. I dont think I would have survived without it, and it's now my dear close ally and friend, who is always there to give me strength when I dont feel I have any left.
The way I balance it all is, that I forgive what I can, and make no excuses or feel an ounce of guilt for what I cannot. Forgiveness is personal for me, and a private thing. I do not judge others on thier abilities to forgive or not. And I cant stand and wont listen long to someone preaching to me how I "NEED" to forgive.

The fire that feeds...indeed. I've written the best prose and created the most fantastic art when I was mad as a wet hen at someone.

True story.

[friskyfemme]

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?
I have to say I have strict rules about forgiveness. If someone's actions or no action depending on the situation are intentional to harm. I don't forgive and I don't stick around. If I address a harm with someone who I perceive created the harm unintentionally and they sincerely apologize, I forgive them. This is my rules for the adults. It's a kid. I probe for their reasoning. I talk to them about it. And I give them forgiveness but I stress the conseqences of their action.

I don't feel imbalanced if I don't forgive. I do ceremony to remove the negative energy created by the harm done against me or I have done to others whether intentional or not.

[Venus007]

My forgiveness process has consisted of accepting her in me, and learning to value those qualities objectively


Oooh I needed to hear that little part right there. For me that has been one of the hardest things, to move forward enough to embrace the objectively good qualities planted in me by my family members who have wronged me. I WANT to throw the baby out with the bath water, it is so much easier.
As I integrate the parts of myself that I see are similar and formed by my abuser AND objectively valuable it helps to bring peace to the process, at least for me.

Thank you for saying this

[Venus007]

What are your thoughts on forgiveness?
Forgiveness is very tightly tied to the idea of acceptance. There is nothing I can do to change the past or the things I perceive as negative that happened to me. I can only accept that they happened, attempt to integrate them into myself and move on. This is a process and in some examples it has and does take many years in my life to process and to move to acceptance. I have to practice mindfulness and to consistently put down the anger, resentment, bitterness, etc that being harmed has caused me, it is something I have to do daily, hell hourly in some cases. I have to return and return and return to opening my hand, to not clinging to my ego and my ego’s pain, I am strong enough and expansive enough to release the pain of my harm and forgive my antagonist.

What does forgiveness mean to you?
Releasing to verifying levels of success, the anger and resentment surrounding instances where in my estimation I have been wronged. Forgiveness does not mean condoning the behavior that occurred, nor does it necessarily mean that the individual who wronged me will be allowed back into my life if they are toxic.

What does it feel like to you?
Sometimes forgiveness feels like a betrayal to my ego. Sometimes it feels like a bitter, hard thing. Sometimes it feels like a release of a weight pressing down on me. Sometimes it doesn’t feel like anything.


Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness?
I have a few as out of necessity I have had to practice much forgiveness in my life.
One is to write an event that I experienced that I need to extend forgiveness for down from my antagonist’s eyes. This helps me see what they were experiencing.

I also say “I forgive you” to people who apologize to me. I am trying to move away from the nondescript and relatively meaningless (to me) “that’s okay” because sometimes it is most certainly NOT ok. To use the words in a formal way helps me process, saying “I forgive you” or “I grant you forgiveness” adds a gravitas that sometimes is called for.

For big things and deep past wounds a formal ritual I practice for viewing with compassion for the person who wronged me is to visualize the person who wronged me as a child before life and time corrupted them and caused them to harm me. I do this visualization while looking into the flame of a white candle for many nights starting at the new moon and lasting until the full moon. Then I write a letter to the person who wronged me expressing my forgiveness and compassion (even if that forgiveness and compassion is small, hard and rudimentary). I then take the candle, the letter and anything else I think I need to include and throw it into a moving body of water and walk away without turning back or I burn it completely.


Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option?
I feel that there are times when my ego throws a fit about the harm that came to me because it doesn’t want to release its pain, but ultimately I must practice forgiveness for myself. If I choose not to forgive and to hoard the wrongs against me I am poisoning myself. In order for me to move on and not give those who harmed me any more power in my life I need to remove them as they harmed me from my mind and from my heart, I must let them go from me. They are not treasure to be kept or goodness to be savored but rough lessons to be learned. By choosing not to forgive I am allowing those who harmed me continuing power and pain in my life and to me that is not acceptable.

Do you forgive frequently or rarely?
Frequently

Do you forgive yourself?
This is a hard one for me. I have to practice letting go of things that I am inclined to be unforgiving of, daily, and hourly. I must practice the same compassion and unattachment for myself that I extend to others, this can be a pisser.

Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret?
For things I regret I try to make amends and I express to the individual I have wronged my apology. I cannot cause someone else to confer grace or forgiveness to me, I can only (and am only responsible for by the way) being honest about what I did to them that hurt them and being sincerely remorseful or regretful about the wrong doing. It is their business to choose or not choose forgiveness for me and I cannot cause that to happen.

If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness?
That although it is hard it leads to freedom from past injuries and that to refuse forgiveness can make them soul-sick. I would also teach them any techniques that work for me.

Any other thoughts on forgiveness?
Forgiveness is not the same as condoning what then individual did to you that wronged you. There are ways I have been harmed in my life that were empirically wrong and could be called evil. My forgiveness does nothing to diminish that, it only releases me, my soul, my ego, myself from squirreling away the resentment and ongoing pain from that injustice so I may move forward and not define myself by the ill that happened to me but by the substance of my life that is greater than an event (or series of events).

[dark_crystal]

For big things and deep past wounds a formal ritual I practice for viewing with compassion for the person who wronged me is to visualize the person who wronged me as a child before life and time corrupted them and caused them to harm me.

i use this strategy a lot, and not neccessarily for forgiveness- i work with some really dysfunctional people and it helps my aggravation level with them when i superimpose their adult behavior on a mental image of them as a child. Sometimes the only way i get through supervisors meeting is by turning the entire board room into a nursery

[T4Texas]

Forgivness is something we have to come to terms with in our inner self. It is always dependent on your personal circumstances as for some people the reasons are different or more or less painful. I do not think its a negative to not want to embrace something that you haven't made your peace with yet, or may never make your peace with because the hurt is too great. I am a great believer in moving forward in life from the things that cause you harm or pain. But, that said, I struggle with forgiveness because I have a tendency to feel vindictive if I have been hurt badly or feel wronged by someone. That vindictiveness, I know is wrong and a huge part of my struggle in life has been to eliminate that from my personality. As a result, forgiveness comes slowly to me, but that does not mean it won't eventually come. There are some people I have wiped out of my life forever because the hurt was too great and the situation was not repairable. There are many things I have said to people that I wish I could have taken back. I think there are times when we have to go to those extremes in order to be able to move forward. But even though I've done those things, I was still always sad about the loss, the finality of making that decision and the knowledge that even if you forgive, your relationship with that person will never truly be the same because now its tainted in some way. As human beings, we do a lot of things to each other that are abusive, passive agressive, and ultimately unforgivable. I feel as an individual, you must move forward and put yourself in a place where you can heal and if for you that means either forgiving or not forgiving, then you must choose what you think will best serve that end.

[Nat]

I ran across this today - thought I'd share:

"There are three aspects to the Buddhist idea of patience: patience-persistence, patience-under-insult and acceptance-of-truth.

The fourth is forgiveness...which in the Buddhist context is based more on Karma - the causal chain that's put into effect by your behavior. With karma, there is no external force or person or being that can intervene with your karma. There's nobody else responsible for your karma but you. So the idea of forgiveness of someone else is not as important as it is for you to do your own work.

What forgiveness is really tied to in this context is releasing our anger we have toward others.

When I forgive you, I am no longer going to hold anger toward you. I can't free you from your karma, you're still going to have to work this out for yourself in some way, but you know now I'm a safe person for you. I'm no longer going to hold my anger against you and make things difficult.

One of the reason's it's so powerful to release our anger toward other people is that a healthy way to change the course of our own karma is to not hold onto anger."

Gil Fronsdal, Audio Dharma podcast

[Chancie]

I forgive you. :stillheart:

[BullDog]

If someone genuinely asks for my forgiveness then there is a very high chance I will forgive. Things may not be the same between us- for example if someone cheated on me- but I can acknowledge their genuineness and sincerity. People do make mistakes all the time. I know I do. When this happens I do my best to apologize and learn from my mistakes.

In the case of someone treating me in an abusive, very hurtful, manipulative or some other unhealthy manner, those people don't tend to be asking for forgiveness so I am not sure why I would need to expend energy trying to forgive them. For some it is a way of healing and moving forward. For me if I feel I have been wronged or am in an unhealthy situation, I need to figure out how to move forward and not let toxic people influence my life as much as possible. Forgiving someone doesn't really have much to do with it. I can't control how unhealthy people are going to treat me. I need to figure out how to heal and feel good about myself again. I need to learn from my mistakes and use better judgement of who I will let into my life.

[princessbelle]

The way i feel about forgiveness is this:

It is actually a gift i give to myself when i forgive others.

When i find that i want to forgive someone, it is not for them necessarily but for myself. It is the ease of the flow. I enjoy the positive of karma that it brings and the light out of the storm.

Sometimes it is done at the deepest levels and sometimes it is just a surface forgiveness, if that makes sense.

Either way it feels good and nurturing for myself, and that is always a healthy thing.

[AtLast]

I ran across this today - thought I'd share:

"There are three aspects to the Buddhist idea of patience: patience-persistence, patience-under-insult and acceptance-of-truth.

The fourth is forgiveness...which in the Buddhist context is based more on Karma - the causal chain that's put into effect by your behavior. With karma, there is no external force or person or being that can intervene with your karma. There's nobody else responsible for your karma but you. So the idea of forgiveness of someone else is not as important as it is for you to do your own work. What forgiveness is really tied to in this context is releasing our anger we have toward others.

When I forgive you, I am no longer going to hold anger toward you. I can't free you from your karma, you're still going to have to work this out for yourself in some way, but you know now I'm a safe person for you. I'm no longer going to hold my anger against you and make things difficult.

One of the reason's it's so powerful to release our anger toward other people is that a healthy way to change the course of our own karma is to not hold onto anger."

Gil Fronsdal, Audio Dharma podcast

This way of thinking about my own work and forgiveness has always won out internally. I have to take responsibility for working through anger and hurt. Until then, I can't possibly meaningfully attempt to process with someone else.

Sometimes I wish I could do this more efficiently when I know that want to work through something with someone else that although we have had a rift, I want to make amends.

I have had far too many people I cared about die (family & friends) to not realize that my moving through my faulty reasoning slowly has caused me to miss the opportunity to experience the gift forgiveness can be.

[StrongButch]

You must forgive yourself first then you can forgive another. I believe there would be fewer breakups if people could forgive each other.

[Tony]

You must forgive yourself first then you can forgive another. I believe there would be fewer breakups if people could forgive each other.

Well said. I feel forgiveness is for ourselves, not so much someone else unless they are asking for it. Even then, we have to forgive ourselves the pain & emotion that brought us to that place to begin with.
I absolutely agree with the break up statement. Forgiveness us such a raw emotion; you're baring your soul. If you can do that together, you still have the ability to move forward together.
My .02

[spritzerJ]

For me forgiveness is essential, a cornerstone. When I forgive I've opened the space for faith and trust (faith to me is trust mixed with hope).

Faith that I can handle where I am at. And faith comes from trust. Trust in myself and trust that another person can be who they are. I don't need to trust someone to "get" me. I trust and "get" myself.

Forgiveness is wishing the same faith and trust for them as I have found/opened up to for myself.

[JustJo]

Okay, so this may sound a little weird....but I don't believe in forgiveness. Not out of a "hanging onto anger" place, but just that I don't feel it's up to me. For me, saying "I forgive you" also implies, in a small way, that I have judged you and found you wanting.

When I have been hurt, I do my best to understand....understand what happened, understand my part in it, understand the other's part in it....and hopefully learn some lessons.

Then, I stick it all in a mental/emotional box, tie a ribbon around it, and stick it in a deep, dark closet in my head. It's still there....and I can revisit it if I must, or if I choose to.

Having said that....I grew up around angry, narcissistic, bullying people....and I never....ever....forget.

[spritzerJ]

Okay, so this may sound a little weird....but I don't believe in forgiveness. Not out of a "hanging onto anger" place, but just that I don't feel it's up to me. For me, saying "I forgive you" also implies, in a small way, that I have judged you and found you wanting.

When I have been hurt, I do my best to understand....understand what happened, understand my part in it, understand the other's part in it....and hopefully learn some lessons.

Then, I stick it all in a mental/emotional box, tie a ribbon around it, and stick it in a deep, dark closet in my head. It's still there....and I can revisit it if I must, or if I choose to.

Having said that....I grew up around angry, narcissistic, bullying people....and I never....ever....forget.

I don't forget either.
Forgiveness includes letting go of responsibility to fix it for others and myself. I made a mistake, acted badly, hurt someone. I repair and acknowledge what I can and can't fix.

[Miss Scarlett]

Forgiving can be extremely difficult and for me learning to forgive myself was most difficult. But there is a peace and healing that comes from that.

Forgiving others is something else i had to learn...it too brings closure to me. i'm a Libra and as such crave balance. Forgiving myself and others helps bring that about.

i've forgiven those who have hurt me over the years...this takes great strength and isn't always easy but it's far better than letting things fester. It also doesn't always mean that there is a resumption of friendship or relationship...for me that depends on what happened and/or the other party. It's also better for me when to be able to discuss the matter with the other party but that's not always possible for various reasons. If unable to talk with them i will write them a letter that i do not mail. Rather i get everything out on paper and either bury or burn it and scatter the ashes. Bringing it out into the light negates the darkness of the hurt/anger...burning or burying separates me from it and thus sets me free.

i have some favorite quotations of the Dalai Lama i refer to daily:

"If you harbor ill will, it has a negative impact on yourself."

"The way to overcome negative thoughts and destructive emotions is to develop opposing positive emotions that are stronger and more powerful. This takes more than prayer or wishing. It requires deep analysis into the cause of harsh feelings like hatred and a conscious effort to shift perspective."

"Compassion, forgiveness, these are the real, ultimate sources of power for peace and success in life."

[KayCee]

If something happened or was said that was really really hurtful that would need forgiveness but I can't ever forget, not even over time, no matter how much I try, then for me there is no forgiveness either.

[Miss Scarlett]

If something happened or was said that was really really hurtful that would need forgiveness but I can't ever forget, not even over time, no matter how much I try, then for me there is no forgiveness either.

i totally understand...i've had some seriously nasty, unfair, false and/or unjustified things said or done to me over my lifetime...just because i've forgiven does not erase the memory of what happened and forgiveness is not automatic or immediate for me...it takes time.

There is no right or wrong way, everyone must take their own path and do what is best or what works for them.

[spritzerJ]

If something happened or was said that was really really hurtful that would need forgiveness but I can't ever forget, not even over time, no matter how much I try, then for me there is no forgiveness either.

I no longer feel that forgetting and forgiveness need to go hand in hand. If I don't forget it means I learned from the situation or what was said.

Forgiveness comes when I can feel I've learned and the "hold" on me lessons. It (the event, what was said, etc.) becomes a memory, a moment in time, a touchstone a reminder of the lesson. Forgiveness is faith, trust that I've learned, let go of ill for myself or others, and moved on.

If I can't forgive I can't move on. And I really want to continue my journey.

[Blade]

Sometime forgiveness is about understanding. Perhaps understanding why you or someone else behaved/responded a certain way or didn't. Perhaps understanding that it just is what it is. I am suprised when I hear folks say they don't forgive. I wonder how they move forward. You can't just ignore or remove yourself from every situation or person in life who has wronged you. I guess in the same token you can't forgive everyone who has wronged you either.

I have to forgive or it eats me alive inside. This doesn't mean I'm satisfied with whatever the situation was. It just means that I have dealt with it on my end and I've come to an understanding of why I feel/felt the way I did in a given situation. As a person who believes in God, I feel it is my duty to find a way to forgive. If my God can forgive me when I fall short of His expectations, what makes me above that, that I wouldn't/shouldn't forgive. Especially when someone falls short of my expectations. That's on me isn't it. You can't set the bar of expectations at the same level for everyone. You lower that bar for some and don't expect as much out of them. Usually because you accept them like they are...flawed...you forgive their flaws.

I'm sure I've said oh I'll never forgive so and so for this or that. Usually this would be before I've figured it out in my head and heart. However there are a few things I don't think I'd ever forgive someone for. Those would be horrible things. But I can't think of anything anyone has done or said to me personally that I couldn't find forgiveness for.

A grudge is a heavy burden to carry. The road traveled is much less troublesome, carrying forgiveness than a heavy burden

[Just_G]

I think I am harder on myself than I am with anyone that has ever done anything to hurt me over the years. It seems that the older I get, the harder it is to forgive myself because half the time I know better, but I continue to LET people do things that hurt me.

I try to remember to be kind to myself about it and that it is more important for me to forgive myself than to forgive the person that did it.....I gotta live with myself, and I usually put separation between me and the people that hurt me anyway. It doesn't mean I don't forgive them...I just choose not to let them in my hula hoop ever again.

[Canela]

But, I have learned not to carry around negative stuff from others and what they've done to me. It weighs too heavy on me. I am pretty hard on myself, so I don't need extra stuff.

I do get mad, hurt, angry, etc...I will yell, hurt, cry, whatever...when I get that out, I am ready to work on it...forgive it and then release it. I don't need it to hinder me.

And if I expect forgiveness for stuff I've done directly or indirectly to others, I need to forgive, as well. No, it's not easy. It's a process obviously, but it does happen. And I'm grateful--because I understand that I shouldn't ask for something that I wouldn't do for others.

Fair is fair.

That's just me.

[barnes]

my precious ladyhawkxx could do anything wrong on this earth and id love her unconditionally !!!!!!!!! ive never known love like it !!!

[Martina]

If I can imagine doing something myself, then I can forgive. If I can't imagine ever doing such a thing, if it is out of my ken, then it takes me much longer to forgive, and sometimes I never do. I let it go and forget about it. But if something comes along to remind me, I'll frown remembering.

Even if the motivation is something I can relate to, for example anxiety or fear, if I know that I would never have acted out in that way, then I struggle with forgiveness.

[*Anya*]

I am working on it and hope to get there.

:moonstars:

[Soft*Silver]

there is a difference between holding onto a resentment and not forgiving someone.

I wont hold onto resentments anymore because frankly, I dont want to drink. I drank over resentments and none of them were worth the price I paid. All my fault. I knew better.

But forgiving them for what they did to me? No. Not going to happen. Small matters, yes, no problem. I can forgive almost anyone for anything, because frankly, its all small shit in the course of a lifetime. But every once in awhile, there is a Big Thing. I can analyze it, understand why they did it, pray for them, but I still will not forgive them IF forgiveness is not warranted.

sometimes forgiveness is NOT warranted.

I grew up in an era where we were told to continually praise kids, award them ribbons for showing up, give them parades for ordinary conduct to boost self esteem. We ended up with a generation of self indulgent narcissistic lil monsters.

Same with forgiveness. You know, sometimes people do shit that is just NOT right. Earlier I read in another thread about teens who bowled over an octogenarian war hero...punks. Oh boy. I need to forgive them for being assholes. Really? And this makes them a better person because they have my forgiveness. Maybe I can understand why they did it. So friggin what? I can have compassion for them over why, but honey, I am not about to forgive someone who does that to an old man.

and while I agree with Princess Belle about forgiveness being a gift I give myself, I hold firm to the gift I give those I dont forgive..and thats natural consequences. Hurt me until my soul spiritually bleeds and I will never forgive you. I wont carry a resentment around forever, but I wont forgive you. Live with what you did to me forever. If you earned it, you deserve it. What you did is about YOU, not me and i wont get eaten up by it, by not forgiving you. Your asshat behavior is yours. Its not my toxins. Its YOURS>

Again, most of the time, 99% of the time, I forgive people. But some blacksouled people will bear eternally their natural consequence to who they are and what they did to me.

[Nomad]

forgiving others isnt difficult. forgiving myself isnt easy. i've lived down to plenty of sub standard standards in my un-better self days. i find that i'm likely to need forgiveness more than any amount of forgiving i've done or could do. fortunately for me everyone grows up eventually, if for no other reason than to engage in living the rest of life without causing so much pain.

[Jean_TX]

If I can imagine doing something myself, then I can forgive. If I can't imagine ever doing such a thing, if it is out of my ken, then it takes me much longer to forgive, and sometimes I never do. I let it go and forget about it. But if something comes along to remind me, I'll frown remembering.

Even if the motivation is something I can relate to, for example anxiety or fear, if I know that I would never have acted out in that way, then I struggle with forgiveness.

I too struggle with forgiveness if I never would have acted in the way the offender did ...I just cannot summon up the required empathy.

[wahya]

You can never heal completely until you can forgive completely

[JAGG]

Forgiveness doesn't stop the pain.
Forgiveness doesn't erase a memory.
Forgiveness doesn't fade a scar.
Forgiveness doesn't heal a wound.
Forgiveness doesn't unbreak a heart.
Forgiveness doesn't repair what was destroyed.
Forgiveness doesn't answer any nagging questions.
Forgiveness doesn't ease the grieving or loss.
Forgiveness can't return what was taken.
Forgiveness simply removes anger from the equation.

[JustBeingMe]

I want to contribute to this thread but will have to come back to it another time. I have enjoyed reading it and think it's a great thread. I hope more post here. til next time batman, same time same place same channel!

[~ocean]

forgiveness ~ follows acceptance ~ when u can accept the inevitable ~ then forgive :) ~

[wahya]

I have had to learn to forgive because nothing can change or will when you keep asking questions over and over. You cannot change the past. What's done is done. It took me a looong time to quit asking myself why? Why? Why? I was wasting my mind space day after day. Over someone that didnt give a damn about me anymore. I cared about myself too much to let ANYBODY take anything from me like that again. I got a life to live.

[~ocean]

like the Title of the room" FORGIVNESS " try it :) ~

[girl_dee]

In general, how would you forgive someone who is not remorseful? This is where forgiveness is granted or not granted for me.

[~ocean]

In general, how would you forgive someone who is not remorseful? This is where forgiveness is granted or not granted for me.


forgiveness always was a personal ending to a sensitive subject with someone :either special or just a social situation.

[homoe]

In general, how would you forgive someone who is not remorseful? This is where forgiveness is granted or not granted for me.


I am a Cancer we can forgive BUT we NEVER forget................

[~ocean]

I am a Cancer we can forgive BUT we NEVER forget................

yada yada so u took your ginko.....lol

[girl_dee]

forgiveness always was a personal ending to a sensitive subject with someone :either special or just a social situation.

i am not sure it would be an ending though.

[BullDog]

If someone genuinely asks for my forgiveness then there is a very high chance I will forgive. Things may not be the same between us- for example if someone cheated on me- but I can acknowledge their genuineness and sincerity. People do make mistakes all the time. I know I do. When this happens I do my best to apologize and learn from my mistakes.

In the case of someone treating me in an abusive, very hurtful, manipulative or some other unhealthy manner, those people don't tend to be asking for forgiveness so I am not sure why I would need to expend energy trying to forgive them. For some it is a way of healing and moving forward. For me if I feel I have been wronged or am in an unhealthy situation, I need to figure out how to move forward and not let toxic people influence my life as much as possible. Forgiving someone doesn't really have much to do with it. I can't control how unhealthy people are going to treat me. I need to figure out how to heal and feel good about myself again. I need to learn from my mistakes and use better judgement of who I will let into my life.

Yes, exactly. I posted this over 6 years ago and is how I feel today as well. Forgiveness is very much a beautiful thing, but if someone is not sorry for what they did or not genuinely seeking it, then for me there is no point. Better for me to just get on with my life and become as neutral about the situation as possible.

[cathexis]

Yes, exactly. I posted this over 6 years ago and is how I feel today as well. Forgiveness is very much a beautiful thing, but if someone is not sorry for what they did or not genuinely seeking it, then for me there is no point. Better for me to just get on with my life and become as neutral about the situation as possible.

What I try to do is limit what is considered a transgression against me. For example, I don't count getting "strange" (a chance, one time, sexual encounter) as a transgression.
A person must lie, truly cheat, or steal someone or something from me.

[candy_coated_bitch]

In general, how would you forgive someone who is not remorseful? This is where forgiveness is granted or not granted for me.


There are people who have been in my life, abusers for example, that I feel no need to forgive. Ever. I know it's healing for some but I don't see a point in making a huge deal expending energy forgiving them

As far as lesser transgressions I think for me whether or not a person is remorseful also counts with me. If a person has no remorse I am most likely just going to move on with my life and not look back. If it's something really small I may not move on from that person but hearing an I'm sorry is always nice.

[Chad]

For me forgiveness is directly connected to the offense. If it is a great offense directed to me specifically then I would rather not have that person in my life so there would be no forgiveness.

If someone that I love and respect makes a mistake and I am indirectly affected then I would most likely forgive them.

Remorse does matter but some actions are unforgivable.

[Kätzchen]

Forgiveness doesn't stop the pain.
Forgiveness doesn't erase a memory.
Forgiveness doesn't fade a scar.
Forgiveness doesn't heal a wound.
Forgiveness doesn't unbreak a heart.
Forgiveness doesn't repair what was destroyed.
Forgiveness doesn't answer any nagging questions.
Forgiveness doesn't ease the grieving or loss.
Forgiveness can't return what was taken.
Forgiveness simply removes anger from the equation.

I agree with JAGG.....

Forgiveness doesn't do anything for me, at all.

Forgiveness is an concept, which to me, requires some form of pennance, or some form of repentance and corrective measures applied. In my mind, forgiveness serves no one.

Forgiveness or to forgive someone has never served any purpose in my life.

I actually learned in therapy that it's okay to not believe in forgiveness..... that it's okay to let go and move forward with my life.

[girl_dee]

I agree with JAGG.....

Forgiveness doesn't do anything for me, at all.

Forgiveness is an concept, which to me, requires some form of pennance, or some form of repentance and corrective measures applied. In my mind, forgiveness serves no one.

Forgiveness or to forgive someone has never served any purpose in my life.

I actually learned in therapy that it's okay to not believe in forgiveness..... that it's okay to let go and move forward with my life.


do you think some consider *letting go* forgiving?

[Kätzchen]

do you think some consider *letting go* forgiving?

I do not equate letting go as the same thing as forgiveness.

Letting Go is the process by which you simply resolve to let go.

Forgiveness is not about letting go. Forgiveness requires an an whole other set of requirements to be accomplished in order for one to be able to let go....or move forward.

I don't believe in forgiveness, at all.

I'm my own "hero" for being able to let go and move on.

Btw, I heart you as my femme sister in our community, dee! ❤

[Brisa]

Some people can be forgiven and some can never be forgiven....and there you have it :)

[Greco]

Let G_d forgiven them. I have a life to
fully live, and family, friends, and eventually a woman to fully love.
May sound cruel, but I've learned a lot.

So, yes, let G_d forgive them. No explanations necessary.

Greco

[*Anya*]

>>>snip<<<

Forgiveness is an concept, which to me, requires some form of pennance, or some form of repentance and corrective measures applied. In my mind, forgiveness serves no one.

Forgiveness or to forgive someone has never served any purpose in my life.

I actually learned in therapy that it's okay to not believe in forgiveness..... that it's okay to let go and move forward with my life.

I honestly never thought about it exactly like this.

The concept of letting go, for me, is everything and it really is not the same as forgiveness.

Holding onto anger, resentment or bitterness hurts me more than another person. Letting go of all of that really feels liberating.

My clients talk about doing their 12-steps and getting stuck on making amends. They state that they are afraid the person they want to make amends to will not forgive them. I try to reinforce that they are making amends for themself; not to expect the other person to "forgive" them.

I never thought about it in terms of letting go but I think it is the same thing.

I can't really move on until I let go. That is really difficult for me.

I need to work on this.

[girl_dee]

I do not equate letting go as the same thing as forgiveness.

Letting Go is the process by which you simply resolve to let go.

Forgiveness is not about letting go. Forgiveness requires an an whole other set of requirements to be accomplished in order for one to be able to let go....or move forward.

I don't believe in forgiveness, at all.

I'm my own "hero" for being able to let go and move on.

Btw, I heart you as my femme sister in our community, dee! ❤



i heart you too!!! i love your way of thinking :bunchflowers:

[CherylNYC]

I do not equate letting go as the same thing as forgiveness.

Letting Go is the process by which you simply resolve to let go.

Forgiveness is not about letting go. Forgiveness requires an an whole other set of requirements to be accomplished in order for one to be able to let go....or move forward.

I don't believe in forgiveness, at all.

I'm my own "hero" for being able to let go and move on.

Btw, I heart you as my femme sister in our community, dee! ❤


I could never quite understand what 'forgiveness' really means. The closest definition I ever found for myself was that forgiving someone means you're saying to them that whatever happened is OK now. There are some things that will simply NEVER be ok, so I couldn't figure out why I was supposed to forgive them. So I didn't, and I don't. But I do strive to let go. I agree with Katchen. It's not the same thing at all.

[MsTinkerbelly]

And......

I disagree with most of you (surprise, lol), THAT never happens.

Forgiveness is an easy concept when you are simply forgiving the person for being human and having (sometimes horrible) faults. We are human, and therefore we fail...we hurt..we cause serious pain to others.

I must personally forgive them of the sin of not being perfect and causing me harm, but I NEVER forget the wrong done to me and THAT is what will color my future relationship or complete absence from their lives. To forget what has been done, and set yourself up for repeated hurt is (to me) the height of foolishness.

[Kobi]

I could never quite understand what 'forgiveness' really means. The closest definition I ever found for myself was that forgiving someone means you're saying to them that whatever happened is OK now. There are some things that will simply NEVER be ok, so I couldn't figure out why I was supposed to forgive them. So I didn't, and I don't. But I do strive to let go. I agree with Katchen. It's not the same thing at all.


I dont understand what forgiveness means either. Being Catholic, forgiveness was always an absolution of some real or perceived wrong and a wiping the slate clean.

Yet, things do have an impact and an aftermath in varying degrees. The slate is never wiped clean. The slate can be changed or altered but it is never the same. That is not always a bad thing.

My concern is always for restoring my own sense of peace and how I choose to do that. It is the only thing I have control over.

Learning from and making adjustments to is not forgiveness to me. It is just growth in service to the self.

[girl_dee]

I dont understand what forgiveness means either. Being Catholic, forgiveness was always an absolution of some real or perceived wrong and a wiping the slate clean.

Yet, things do have an impact and an aftermath in varying degrees. The slate is never wiped clean. The slate can be changed or altered but it is never the same. That is not always a bad thing.

My concern is always for restoring my own sense of peace and how I choose to do that. It is the only thing I have control over.

Learning from and making adjustments to is not forgiveness to me. It is just growth in service to the self.



I'm not snipping :) but part of this resonates. i need to do what feels right to me.

i get so angry when i am told that i must forgive. grrrr

[Kobi]

I'm not snipping :) but part of this resonates. i need to do what feels right to me.

i get so angry when i am told that i must forgive. grrrr


Just my take on this....usually when someone else "suggests" I need to forgive, forget, let go of or whatever word/phrase is used, it is more about what they need, not what I need.

The snipping made me smile :) We're good.

[Kätzchen]

I honestly never thought about it exactly like this.

The concept of letting go, for me, is everything and it really is not the same as forgiveness.

Holding onto anger, resentment or bitterness hurts me more than another person. Letting go of all of that really feels liberating.

My clients talk about doing their 12-steps and getting stuck on making amends. They state that they are afraid the person they want to make amends to will not forgive them. I try to reinforce that they are making amends for themself; not to expect the other person to "forgive" them.

I never thought about it in terms of letting go but I think it is the same thing.

I can't really move on until I let go. That is really difficult for me.

I need to work on this.

The piece about your clients getting stuck on the amends step is exactly why Forgiveness as an social corrective does not help. It's largely why I think forgiveness isn't beneficial for either party. (See, other comments in my post below, ok?)

But I agree with you that Letting Go is not the same thing as Forgiveness. :rrose:

I could never quite understand what 'forgiveness' really means. The closest definition I ever found for myself was that forgiving someone means you're saying to them that whatever happened is OK now. There are some things that will simply NEVER be ok, so I couldn't figure out why I was supposed to forgive them. So I didn't, and I don't. But I do strive to let go. I agree with Katchen. It's not the same thing at all.

I personally like and resonate with your thoughts Cheryl! That's the thing: My mom has always felt and pushed for me to 'forgive' two members of my family for sexually assaulting me. Even after my mother walked in on my dad having sex in their bed with literally the woman next door, she STILL cannot grasp the gravity of how it feels to be sexually traumatized. Why on earth would I ever 'forgive' the person for sexually assaulting me? That's akin to saying "thanks for fucking up my life and now it's okay," when it will NEVER be okay, ever.

I loved your take on this subject, Cheryl! :rrose:


I dont understand what forgiveness means either. Being Catholic, forgiveness was always an absolution of some real or perceived wrong and a wiping the slate clean.

Yet, things do have an impact and an aftermath in varying degrees. The slate is never wiped clean. The slate can be changed or altered but it is never the same. That is not always a bad thing.

My concern is always for restoring my own sense of peace and how I choose to do that. It is the only thing I have control over.

Learning from and making adjustments to is not forgiveness to me. It is just growth in service to the self.



I personally like the piece you address about what we have control over. I agree that we only have control over our own selves and that is why I think Letting Go works out best for me.

Letting Go is taking ownership of our thoughts and feelings and prioritizing our lives in ways that puts safety first.

I'm not snipping :) but part of this resonates. i need to do what feels right to me.

i get so angry when i am told that i must forgive. grrrr

This is why the social contract of "forgiveness" will never work for me. The victim is never served by forgiving the perpetrator.
WHEN I practice Letting Go, is does not mean that the perpetrator wins. Letting Go comes from my heart with compassion for myself and compassion for the offender. I'm not God. I'm not perfect. I'm not in charge of judging whether any person or event deserves "forgiveness." Letting Go is beneficial for myself because then I am in a position to not give anymore power to the offense or offender. Letting go empowers me to disrupt the cycle of the notion that I don't have to forgive or forget. Letting Go is am opportunity to focus on me, my needs and my recovery. I can only own my behaviors and thoughts and actions. Letting go sets me free to take care of me. :rrose:


Just my take on this....usually when someone else "suggests" I need to forgive, forget, let go of or whatever word/phrase is used, it is more about what they need, not what I need.

The snipping made me smile :) We're good.


I personally loved reading your thoughts Kobi.
Thanks for communicating and driving the point home about prioritizing for our own lives and what we need for an desireable outcome, which emphasizes and privileges our own well being. :rrose:

[FireSignFemme]

I can't remember now the name of the author or title of the book, but basically the writer said when it comes to forgiveness there are four basic personality types - those who are

Slow to anger/Quick to Forgive
Slow to anger/Slow to forgive
Quick to anger/Quick to forgive
Quick to anger/Slow to forgive

I think that's an over simplification but even so it has me wondering - If given only those four options, in most situations, which would you say best describes you?

[Tuff Stuff]

And......

I disagree with most of you (surprise, lol), THAT never happens.

Forgiveness is an easy concept when you are simply forgiving the person for being human and having (sometimes horrible) faults. We are human, and therefore we fail...we hurt..we cause serious pain to others.

I must personally forgive them of the sin of not being perfect and causing me harm, but I NEVER forget the wrong done to me and THAT is what will color my future relationship or complete absence from their lives. To forget what has been done, and set yourself up for repeated hurt is (to me) the height of foolishness.

It's true,people are human and we make mistakes all the time,we ARE NOT! perfect in any way shape or form.I have come to understand that at my age.If you have it in your heart to do so,I agree,better to forgive and move on.I'm talking regular average people here and not people who are in position of power like politicians and people like the Pope,that's a whole other breed of people that have to be almost perfect,because the decisions they make can have a major impact on our lives.

Of course,some people in this world are just down right mean and ugly.I've learned to stay away from those types,period.lol

Btw, I am Slow to anger/Quick to forgive

[cathexis]

Agree with Katzchen's post about letting go. One concept excepted, I cannot give compassion to the offender. Deep inside me, there is always anger for the major offender. It takes much to drive me to anger, but once someone has crossed that line it's all over.

How can one give compassion if the results of the offense affect every minute of every day? The lingering of severe psychological trauma does not allow me to let it go. Some wounds never heal. If I am not able to heal, they will not receive my compassion.

Such an offender does not deserve compassion!

[girl_dee]

I can't remember now the name of the author or title of the book, but basically the writer said when it comes to forgiveness there are four basic personality types - those who are

Slow to anger/Quick to Forgive
Slow to anger/Slow to forgive
Quick to anger/Quick to forgive
Quick to anger/Slow to forgive

I think that's an over simplification but even so it has me wondering - If given only those four options, in most situations, which would you say best describes you?

slow to anger/slow to forgive..

caveat, it depends on the offense on how i anger or forgive.

[Kätzchen]

Agree with Katzchen's post about letting go. One concept excepted, I cannot give compassion to the offender. Deep inside me, there is always anger for the major offender. It takes much to drive me to anger, but once someone has crossed that line it's all over.

How can one give compassion if the results of the offense affect every minute of every day? The lingering of severe psychological trauma does not allow me to let it go. Some wounds never heal. If I am not able to heal, they will not receive my compassion.

Such an offender does not deserve compassion!

I disagree with you, respectfully.

The purpose of Letting Go is to let go without punitive attitude.
When I Let Go, it's an act of compassion for myself and it's an act of compassion for the offender. The purpose of Letting Go is only achievable if we truly let go of the pain or anger or any other emotion which prevents us from attending to our own selves.

I choose Letting Go because, once again, I need to disrupt the drain circling process of the social contract around Forgiveness. Forgiveness does nothing for me. I feel it's a much better outcome when I actively choose to Let Go. Letting Go is the only feasible solution for me and it's helped me to focus on tending to my own self and empowers me to take care of me. :rrose: