masculine maturity?

[rlin]

(all the disclaimers that are needed are assumed for this entire line of questioning... this is all my own thoughts about all my own shit...)

i know that girls mature faster than boys supposedly... that is stated in the language which it is usually reported in...

does anyone have any thought on whether butch matures slower than femme?
do you think this is a masculine feminine phenomena?

this is not a trolling thread...
i am really curious about this because i feel like i am finally maturing... sad part is... im 45 fukn yrs old...

[jenny]

Interesting topic. As the parent of both female and male children, I do see differences in the ways and speed with which they've matured -- but that's kids, not adults. Yes, I think there are biological differences in the way that girls and boys mature, which are a normal part of human physiology. There are evolutionary reasons for differences, which may not be important in society today, but which were essential to the continuation of the race way back when.

Once we reach physical adulthood, though, I think that "maturity" has less to do with gender identity or biological sex. After passing through our teen years, I think what most would consider "maturity" is more emotional and psychological in basis than physical. Could some of that emotional/psychological stuff be due to the work done in sorting out issues with gender identity? Sure. But I think there's a lot of factors at play here -- not *just* gender.

I know plenty of butches who, in their 20s and 30s, are far more mature than other butches in their 40s and beyond. I know femmes who vary in maturity as well. In nearly all cases, life experience is a huge part of where they are now, and differing emotional factors come into play as well.

On a personal level, I feel like at the age of 44, I finally know myself well, I'm comfortable with the person I am, and I genuinely like myself. Does that mean I'm "mature"? I don't know. But I do know that I'm happier and healthier emotionally now than I've ever been before. Was I "immature" in my 30s? I don't think so, but I do think I was less self-aware.

And something else to ponder... what's the definition of "mature"? Who gets to decide which people are "mature" and which aren't?

Thanks for starting this thread. I'll be watching to see what others have to say!!

Jen

[Mister Bent]

(all the disclaimers that are needed are assumed for this entire line of questioning... this is all my own thoughts about all my own shit...)

i know that girls mature faster than boys supposedly... that is stated in the language which it is usually reported in...

does anyone have any thought on whether butch matures slower than femme?
do you think this is a masculine feminine phenomena?

this is not a trolling thread...
i am really curious about this because i feel like i am finally maturing... sad part is... im 45 fukn yrs old...

I think Jenny really grasped the crux here:

Once we reach physical adulthood, though, I think that "maturity" has less to do with gender identity or biological sex. After passing through our teen years, I think what most would consider "maturity" is more emotional and psychological in basis than physical. Could some of that emotional/psychological stuff be due to the work done in sorting out issues with gender identity? Sure. But I think there's a lot of factors at play here -- not *just* gender.

I also think that if you're going to seriously entertain a question/topic like this that you need to start with what the parameters are of "mature."

Frankly, I think a lot of the immaturity witnessed among butches and other masculine identities comes from posturing the most negative/stereotypical male behavior; a sort of "frat boy" mentality. It likely does come from an attempt to "find oneself" as a masculine person, but I don't believe it is based in gender or sex/uality. More so it feels based in emotional immaturity and lack of reasonable role models.

[skeeter_01]

....On a personal level, I feel like at the age of 44, I finally know myself well, I'm comfortable with the person I am, and I genuinely like myself. Does that mean I'm "mature"? I don't know. But I do know that I'm happier and healthier emotionally now than I've ever been before. Was I "immature" in my 30s? I don't think so, but I do think I was less self-aware.

Jen


which is exactly why i think women in their 40's are the sexiest things going...they are at that spot where they are comfortable in their own skins...more confident within themselves...and there is NOTHING sexier than confidence!

just sayin'...
skeet

[jenny]

which is exactly why i think women in their 40's are the sexiest things going...they are at that spot where they are comfortable in their own skins...more confident within themselves...and there is NOTHING sexier than confidence!

just sayin'...
skeet


WOOT!!! Yay for 40-something women, then! I have to say, understanding my own sexuality, proclivities, and desires sure makes me FEEL sexier in my 40s than I ever did back in my 20s and 30s! I remember being much younger and hearing the saying that women really come into their own sexually in their 40s -- at the time, I thought it was a big load of crap, but from where I sit now, I know it's completely true!

[rlin]

I also think that if you're going to seriously entertain a question/topic like this that you need to start with what the parameters are of "mature."



respectfully....
i intentionally left this question broad... i am interested in different facets of the process and do not wish to point anyones thoughts into any certain direction...

[skeeter_01]

WOOT!!! Yay for 40-something women, then! I have to say, understanding my own sexuality, proclivities, and desires sure makes me FEEL sexier in my 40s than I ever did back in my 20s and 30s! I remember being much younger and hearing the saying that women really come into their own sexually in their 40s -- at the time, I thought it was a big load of crap, but from where I sit now, I know it's completely true!


YAY!! i agree!! :cheer:
skeet

[Chancie]

I think this is an interesting thread.

Maybe part of what it means to be mature is a certain comfort in oneself, a certain amount of self awareness.

I am not the same femme I was when I was 30 years old, and

I can't speak to what it means to be an almost 50-year-old butch who has self defined as a butch for almost 20 years.

And of course butches aren't men or boys, except when they are.

[BullDog]

Well said Chancie butches are not male except when they are. You can't compare maturity levels in butches to boy and male. It isn't accurate. Most of us were socialized as girls- no matter how we identify- and many of us do not consider ourselves to be male.

I also agree with those who have said that maturity level has more to do with the individual person and not a whole group based on gender.

[Blade]

WOW I could have a lot of thoughts on this subject. Lemme think on it a bit, but I think I will end up addressing several points of view. Great topic rlin......

To begin with I think many butches have been mature in their female, mom, wife, daughter, sister life. Then they "come out" if you will and start their life over in a different direction and probably the maturity level goes astray. I have examples of this in my own life. I was the person mentioned above. However am I a mature TG/butch probably not, not all the time.

[Gemme]

Maturity, unlike beauty, is not in the eye of the beholder I think. For me, maturity is the manifestation of personal growth and the choices that come from that place. One can feel it, but the title is frivolous if not bestowed by someone else.

Do I spend my check on booze or girls/guys or material things that may or may not bring me pleasure, temporary or permanent?

or....

Do I spend my check on bills and put something in savings and place priority on the things I want over the long haul versus the short term?

Do I tailgate some minivan because it's not going as fast as I would like and then pass them in a no passing zone with my finger waving proud and loud in the air?

or...

Do I take a breath and realize that life won't end if I miss one of the trailers before the movie?

Do I purposefully hurt/degrade/bully another because I see they are vulnerable?

or...

Do I purposefully attempt to engage said person kindly or, at the very least, leave them alone?

These are just examples of course, but it comes down to...for me...being considerate of others, planning for the future, being if not kind then at least not cruel, and living your life as if it's something meaningful to you.

Maturity, to me, means acting like a damn grown up. Sure, some of us are firmly in touch with our inner children. I've participated in food fights and about 2 minutes ago, taunted my honey with the animal crackers, making the appropriate sounds while he was on the phone with a client. BUT--I didn't speak loud enough for the client to hear, since you don't mess with someone's livelihood...you just don't, and I helped clean up after the fight.

I can be as evolved, internally, as I want and then some, but until it comes through in my actions, I'm not there yet no matter my age, gender or identity.

[wolfbittenpoet]

I'm 23 I'm young I know it. But I've been told over and over I am more mature then that. But then again I made my choices or at least accepted myself young. Maturity I suppose happens in terms of experience. Some butches you meet have only allowed themselves to be butches for part of their lives. The same goes for a lot of transfolk. All the glbt community in a way goes through a second social teenage stage. People hit it at different times. In this time they learn to self actualize. For some they need this time because they've hidden their whole lives or conformed to different standards. Yes butches may mature later but it's because in ways some are finding a new person. Femmes are mostly femmes their whole lives they simply change sexual preferences or find a broader spectrum of themselves. Some butches are learning their place in the social construct we live in. So like teenage boys they flex themselves and have boneheaded moments but they learn. But overall I think maturity is individual. Some people will forever have the maturity of a spoiled six year old. It doesn't matter butch femme trans or other.

[Chancie]

Femmes are mostly femmes their whole lives they simply change sexual preferences or find a broader spectrum of themselves.

I was with you, really with you, nodding my head and everything, until this.

I am sorry, rlin, because I fear this will derail your thread, but we are not interchangeable with self identified straight women just because some people think we look a certain socially prescribed way.

[Julie]

I'm 23 I'm young I know it. But I've been told over and over I am more mature then that. But then again I made my choices or at least accepted myself young. Maturity I suppose happens in terms of experience. Some butches you meet have only allowed themselves to be butches for part of their lives. The same goes for a lot of transfolk. All the glbt community in a way goes through a second social teenage stage. People hit it at different times. In this time they learn to self actualize. For some they need this time because they've hidden their whole lives or conformed to different standards. Yes butches may mature later but it's because in ways some are finding a new person. Femmes are mostly femmes their whole lives they simply change sexual preferences or find a broader spectrum of themselves. Some butches are learning their place in the social construct we live in. So like teenage boys they flex themselves and have boneheaded moments but they learn. But overall I think maturity is individual. Some people will forever have the maturity of a spoiled six year old. It doesn't matter butch femme trans or other.

Well... For someone who claims to be so young (age perhaps)... You are quite WISE!

Great Post Wolf!

[wolfbittenpoet]

I was with you, really with you, nodding my head and everything, until this.

I am sorry, rlin, because I fear this will derail your thread, but we are not interchangeable with self identified straight women just because some people think we look a certain socially prescribed way.

Chancie you interpretted it wrong or the words didn't read right. I am not saying a femme is in anyway the same as a si straight woman. But for the most parts the femmes I know and have known find themselves a lot earlier or have the courage to accept themselves so much earlier. It gives them a certain step up. Society still screws you over because you do look the way society thinks you should but you don't always act it. In a way it's harder to be a femme then it is a butch.

[Chancie]

Chancie you interpretted it wrong or the words didn't read right. I am not saying a femme is in anyway the same as a si straight woman. But for the most parts the femmes I know and have known find themselves a lot earlier or have the courage to accept themselves so much earlier. It gives them a certain step up. Society still screws you over because you do look the way society thinks you should but you don't always act it. In a way it's harder to be a femme then it is a butch.

I appreciate your thoughtful response. :)

[Mister Bent]

Chancie you interpretted it wrong or the words didn't read right. I am not saying a femme is in anyway the same as a si straight woman. But for the most parts the femmes I know and have known find themselves a lot earlier or have the courage to accept themselves so much earlier. It gives them a certain step up. Society still screws you over because you do look the way society thinks you should but you don't always act it. In a way it's harder to be a femme then it is a butch.

I think the words didn't get written right - so thank you for this attempt to clarify, however, you are still offering a very broad generalization based on the limited number of femmes you know.

It's impossible to interpret the femme/feminine experience this way, not to mention, this is a thread about the masculine path.

[rlin]

It's impossible to interpret the femme/feminine experience this way, not to mention, this is a thread about the masculine path.

again respectfully...
in actuality i posted this in the butch forum because yes i am interested in butch maturity... but.. in my OP i actually asked about a comparison...

i think that at some level the maturity of femme in comparison to the maturity of butch is interesting to me...
but... indeed my biggest wonder was about masulinity and the amount of impact it has on maturity...

to address other posters...
i have been out longer than i was in... way longer... as a butch i have completed the entire spectrum of a full mature provider for my family... i have experienced shit and thought that i acted as an adult would... i am conscientious and compassionate and all the things that most apply to the definition of maturity...

however... when i look in a mirror...
then i know that a lot of the time... the insides do not match... i feel like i am learning so much about myself right now... at this time... that i am just beginning to age... to grow up... that is the context of maturity i have been thinking of...
several folks mentioned knowing oneself...
this is the thing that is happening to me... i made all the right moves... because i was supposed to... i did all the things that were expected... well... maybe not all... but the ones that were necessary...

but... i never knew myself... i couldnt pinpoint this before i listened to the folks that have posted here... and i appreciate the thoughts and the fact that you share them...

this brings me back to another comparison...
introspection... could that have anything to do with what i am talking about?
are femmes this way too? is this a butch thing? that i just dont look inside me that often? pardon.... or i just never did until recently...

i dont know why i keep tying this up with gender... i think because maybe when i look in the mirror recently i address myself and my mind flows in directions that make me think of the fact that i am butch... as if maybe this helped to keep my from taking a close look at myself... even tho i have always thought and acted as if i were damned proud of being butch...

see... my thoughts are so damned scattered on this subject... that is why intentionally didnt say very much in the opener... hopin that maybe thru listening i will learn something... listening to everyone...

[BullDog]

rlin, it seems to me what you are describing is a maturation process going on within yourself- rather than maturity as in being a responsible adult. This makes sense to me. I am not sure if this has to do with comparing butches to femmes as far as it taking longer, but I do think you may be experiencing a new level of awareness and comfort zone of yourself as a person (which includes being butch) and it comes from both your life experience and introspection.

I do think butches (probably other genders as well) do become more comfortable in our skins the more life experience we gain and the more we come to terms with ourselves, our gender and place in the world. I think older butches often have a quiet confidence about themselves where posturing is not necessary. I do think it is part of a maturation process- in the way I think you are describing.

[little man]

mild disclaimer: i'm still thinking this through, so the process is incomplete.

that said...

i agree with points made by jenny, gemme and bent. i think we also need to through into the mix societal expectations (in a general sort of way, not necessarily straight vs queer).

i think females are perceived to mature at a faster rate than males based, in part, on their societal roles. women are socialized to be wives, mom, caretakers of all who need to be cared for. men are socialized to be providers. it's a bit of a subtle distinction, i think....men offer up the materials for the work and women are expected to sew the fabric of a cohesive life from thost materials. it's easy enough to go out and work your 40 hrs and turn your paycheck over to someone and say "make it work". if you are not resposible for the lion's share of decisions about what gets handled first, in setting the priorities for making the sort of life you want, it leaves more time for leisure activity and just basic fucking off.

since this isn't a discussion about the fairness of division of labor and responsibility, i'll leave that piece alone. i was just thinking that i can't think of very many women who even have the option to play schoolyard games well into their 30s or 40s and make millions of dollars doing so. sure, there are some, but the disparity between men and women or male and female in those endeavors is heavily skewed toward men. determining maturity is a comparitive thing...male vs female. when the opportunity for leisure time activities is higher for one group than another, i think it definitely skews toward males for immaturity. in the world at large, i think men are offered more leisure time because they "bring home the bacon", take care of the "hard" or "heavy" work and deserve all that down time. toss in the disparity in earning power and it gets even more one-sided. personally, i think raising kids, toting them here and there, as well as managing a home and juggling finances is a hell of a lot of work. work i'm not inclined toward. toss in having to look after another full grown adult and oh yeah, a full time job? you would have to be mature to juggle all that and make it work.

in short (kinda), i think that responsibility and stepping up to it go into determining maturity levels...and expectations of who handles what plays into it as well.



this is as far as i've gotten. this is an interesting topic, rlin...thanks for the food for thought.

[AtLast]

Maturity, unlike beauty, is not in the eye of the beholder I think. For me, maturity is the manifestation of personal growth and the choices that come from that place. One can feel it, but the title is frivolous if not bestowed by someone else.

Do I spend my check on booze or girls/guys or material things that may or may not bring me pleasure, temporary or permanent?

or....

Do I spend my check on bills and put something in savings and place priority on the things I want over the long haul versus the short term?

Do I tailgate some minivan because it's not going as fast as I would like and then pass them in a no passing zone with my finger waving proud and loud in the air?

or...

Do I take a breath and realize that life won't end if I miss one of the trailers before the movie?

Do I purposefully hurt/degrade/bully another because I see they are vulnerable?

or...

Do I purposefully attempt to engage said person kindly or, at the very least, leave them alone?

These are just examples of course, but it comes down to...for me...being considerate of others, planning for the future, being if not kind then at least not cruel, and living your life as if it's something meaningful to you.

Maturity, to me, means acting like a damn grown up. Sure, some of us are firmly in touch with our inner children. I've participated in food fights and about 2 minutes ago, taunted my honey with the animal crackers, making the appropriate sounds while he was on the phone with a client. BUT--I didn't speak loud enough for the client to hear, since you don't mess with someone's livelihood...you just don't, and I helped clean up after the fight.

I can be as evolved, internally, as I want and then some, but until it comes through in my actions, I'm not there yet no matter my age, gender or identity.


You are so correct! Although brain chemistry, developmental markers attained as well as the onset of puberty (for both females and males) and menopause and male climacteric stages do relate to human maturity (and beyond)... chronological age, use of hormone therapy, gender identification are not on the same level (playing field, so to speak) in terms of biophysiological manifestations of maturation.

Personally and as a social and behavioral scientist, I sometimes want to choke on US societal norms that have been traditionally skewed toward more acceptance of male immaturity and there is a lot of research in the literature exposing this. Although, the US has quite a record of continued adolescent behavior being tolerated. And fergoddesssakes... look at all of the ethnic, racial, class variances in terms of this!

I have to also stand with Chancie about broad generalizations about femmes or butches, TG/IG people. There is no way I could make any kind of statement about maturity levels based upon any of these simply by the people I happen to now, have known, or will know. I would be stuck on stupid as well as trying to project my own background and personality make-up as somehow "expert" in making these assumptions. And I am a licensed clinician and when practicing, it was my ethical duty to keep up with the literature.

Antidotal, personal observations, even from the most learned are biased and end up being inaccurate which is why scientific inquiry has a method of investigation- to help weed out the biases we all just have.

I’m really not trying to come off as an educated elitist at all- I just get frustrated with shoot from the hip kinds of assumptions about human behavior and personality development, including my own which have their own skews.

[little man]

this brings me back to another comparison...
introspection... could that have anything to do with what i am talking about?
are femmes this way too? is this a butch thing? that i just dont look inside me that often? pardon.... or i just never did until recently...

i dont know why i keep tying this up with gender... i think because maybe when i look in the mirror recently i address myself and my mind flows in directions that make me think of the fact that i am butch... as if maybe this helped to keep my from taking a close look at myself... even tho i have always thought and acted as if i were damned proud of being butch...



this is a personal response to this part of your post, rlin.

my creds: im 53, have been out since i was 14 and have never been much good at being a girl, am now into my 8th(?) year of transition.

i don't know that being butch plays into introspection much. i have always, from the time i was very young, been introspective. i've always read a lot and "tried on" different perspectives and thought processes to see how they fit with (i suppose) my experience and view of the world, however limited it was at any particular time.

my dad told me once (i think somewhere in my 30s) that i was more honest about myself and with myself than most people are. he told me that makes others uncomfortable because it compels them to have a look at themselves. i'm not sure how true that is, but it made sense to me.

have you had a look to see what's brought you to looking more closely at yourself, who you are and your place in the world?

[Corkey]

My response is this. I know that maturity has nothing to do with gender, sexuality or how some identify. Maturity comes from self examination, life experiences and knowledge of the world at large. The more one examines their actions, responses to others actions and teases apart the why's and wherefores of said actions the more one can come to conclusions that are based in reality. When folks come to maturity is based on their own experiences. I can tell you at the age of 17 I became fully maturated, but you may not believe me. That would not be something that is provable, but it is definitely my reality.
Good topic.

[WingsOnFire]

Great post Gemme... I love it!

I personally believe that life experiences can greatly hinder or benefit someone in their maturity growth. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. I left at the age of 17 to learn what it was like to be "normal" for me. To this day I visit sparsely and know that I have worked hard to become the mature and self-functioning independent woman I am today. I persevered and by surrounding myself with people I could look up to I have matured in to the woman I am today. Possibly someone who grew up in a more loving, nurturing family would have matured faster than I did because they would have the right role models to assist in that? I dont know... That is another thought to ponder. I missed out on a lot because of that. To this day I dont have a mother (she passed away when I was 19), a father (he also passed away when I was 19) or sisters or brothers that I would feel comfortable calling for advice. Does that hinder me? Yes. But it is what I "DO" with my life to persevere beyond those limitations that matters to me.

I know both femmes of my age and much younger than I that are as mature, more mature and less mature than I am. Same with butches. My Sir is younger than I am yet in many ways he is much older and wiser than I am. Maybe that is because I believe he has an old soul. Whatever the reason is, I could not and would not compare femmes to butches in maturity growth. In my humble opinion they, femmes and butches, can not be put into one category of more mature or less mature than the other. It is really a personal journey.

I also dont agree that butches equate to male. So I dont think you can use the same analogy of girls mature faster than boys. It just doesn't fit in the same category as femme and butch. Again, I feel it is ones own internal self awareness that reflects their maturity level.

Sorry if this rambles... I am trying to compile my thoughts in a room full of 50 women scrapbooking :|

[AtLast]

Wondering if other people believe their maturation was influenced by birth order?

Also, as a FIB, I just can't relate to masculine maturity in any shape or form. No, I don't mean this as anything snide. Yes, I was not what most girls should be, but, I just viewed myself as a different kind of girl (still do). I can relate to some ethnic distinctions between how female and female children can be raised and their maturity measured by their parents/care-takers. But, this would also have been tainted in my life just because of being raised in the accepted "mans world" paradigm of my age group. I don't know how relevant this would be to younger members. I can relate to masculine maturation and development as a parent of a male child, however.

[Corkey]

Wondering if other people believe their maturation was influenced by birth order?

Also, as a FIB, I just can't relate to masculine maturity in any shape or form. No, I don't mean this as anything snide. Yes, I was not what most girls should be, but, I just viewed myself as a different kind of girl (still do). I can relate to some ethnic distinctions between how female and female children can be raised and their maturity measured by their parents/care-takers. But, this would also have been tainted in my life just because of being raised in the accepted "mans world" paradigm of my age group. I don't know how relevant this would be to younger members.

Birth order, nah, it doesn't explain it in terms of adoption. If that were true my brother should have matured faster than me, he didn't.

[AtLast]

Birth order, nah, it doesn't explain it in terms of adoption. If that were true my brother should have matured faster than me, he didn't.

I agree, partly. As the youngest and born nearly ten years after my older siblings, I can see differences in expectations of maturity. Also, things like not being taken seriously as the "baby of the family." But, on thye hand, having a serious ethnic expectation of being the child responsible for my parents as they aged as the youngest female (especially as an "unmarried" female). My older siblings each had particular role expectations based upon our ethnicity as well. But, there could be similiar things like this for others, I think, based on birth order.

Thinking about how very different my parents were when they had the first child- their maturity levels- fromtwhen I came along. So many things had changed outside of their own ages. For one thing, they did not have the same economic worries and I do think that I did not have some of the same expectations of responsibility expected of me as early as my sisters and brother. For example, we all had paying part-time jobs by the age of 12. However, my older siblings contributed their earning to the family as a whole. I got to keep the money I earned. Well, I had to put most of it in a bank account (for college), but could spend some weekly on things like going to the movies.

I do think I got away with some things as a teenager that my siblings didn't and that this did cause them to become more responsible at younger ages than myself. How it feels, anyway. LOL... perhaps they brain washed me into believing this!

[rlin]

i read all these thoughts when i asked this question... and i learned from them...

while bopping around the site today i ran into this thread and re read the responses...

i just want to say that there are some damned smart folks up in this site...
i really appreciate the fact that i have a place where i can ask a question and get so many varied and intelligent forms of input... these answers covered just about every thought process i could imagine possible... i am damned impressed...

you folks rock!