View Full Version : only another butch would understand
Dean Thoreau
11-14-2009, 12:30 PM
:cigar: Enjoys the calm; the peace,,and
burps freely without restraint............... :beerbros:
The pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed. Is there anything more hurtful short of a breakup? *Opening a brewski waiting to see thoughts on this*:beerbros:
I'mOneToo
11-14-2009, 12:54 PM
not sure which is worse, actually -- a femme or another butch doing that. when it happens it's like someone is trying to hurl the ultimate insult.
The pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed. Is there anything more hurtful short of a breakup? *Opening a brewski waiting to see thoughts on this*:beerbros:
not sure which is worse, actually -- a femme or another butch doing that. When it happens it's like someone is trying to hurl the ultimate insult.
Exactly!.....
atomiczombie
11-14-2009, 12:59 PM
The best thing in the whole wide world is a Femme who does understand. :love1:
The pain of being emasculated by a woman because she's pissed. Is there anything more hurtful short of a breakup? *Opening a brewski waiting to see thoughts on this*:beerbros:
Although you stated your query was directed to the "male identified" of which I'm not... just a thought. Someone may try to emasculate a butch (either male or female ID etc. etc. etc.) but I don't believe they actually can do this without said butch allowing it.
In other words, no one can emasculate me... though they may try and it isn't pleasant I'd guess... but IMO it only reflects back on their own short comings.
Anyway good thread Dean Thoreau... though I'm not much of a burper. ;)
A thought from a butch who's not "male identified" what-ever it be worth to your query Jet... someone may try to emasculate a butch (either male or female ID etc. etc. etc.) but I don't believe they actually can do this without said butch allowing it.
In other words, no one can emasculate me... though they may try and it isn't pleasant I'd guess... but it only reflects back on their own short comings.
Anyway good tread Dean Thoreau... though I'm not much of a burper. ;)
I get it totally. Its not so much the words, it's that it negates everything you thought she understood. It's a trust issue or as though she lied and never thought you as her butch. Otherwise why would she do that?
BullDog
11-14-2009, 01:06 PM
Well I don't burp much, am not male identified, and don't have a huge concern about anyone trying to emasculate me, but howdy to all the butches in the Butch Zone.
I get it totally. Its not so much the words, it's that it negates everything you thought she understood. It's a trust issue or as though she lied and never thought you as her butch. Otherwise why would she do that?
Right... it's a low blow and from one who should support you the most... pretty ugly. Unfortunately when peeps get pissed, some resort to the nasty stuff.
Live and learn I guess and hopefully so will they eventually...
Well I don't burp much, am not male identified, and don't have a huge concern about anyone trying to emasculate me, but howdy to all the butches in the Butch Zone.
Hey Bully!
BullDog
11-14-2009, 01:13 PM
Hey Metro, great to see you!
Hey Metro, great to see you!
Likewise *thumbs up*
Although you stated your query was directed to the "male identified" of which I'm not... just a thought. Someone may try to emasculate a butch (either male or female ID etc. etc. etc.) but I don't believe they actually can do this without said butch allowing it.
In other words, no one can emasculate me... though they may try and it isn't pleasant I'd guess... but IMO it only reflects back on their own short comings.
Anyway good thread Dean Thoreau... though I'm not much of a burper. ;)
Thanks for this, Metropolis. As a non-burping, female-identified butch, I have no concerns regarding my masculinity. I'd be thrilled to be acknowledged in the world for the different type of woman I am. And, no, no woman/partner/date has ever attacked me for that. Either I'm lucky, or I just have too much natural T to make that an issue. Regardless, I'm mostly disappointed that the first "butch" thread is already centered on male stereotypes as a marker of what butch is. That's just fucking sad.
Well I don't burp much, am not male identified, and don't have a huge concern about anyone trying to emasculate me, but howdy to all the butches in the Butch Zone.
Hello back, Bully. Thank you for your post as well.
Beau, who doesn't scratch in public either
Mister Bent
11-14-2009, 04:03 PM
As someone both male identified, and (trans) butch identified, I think there is a broad expanse of what can be covered by "only another butch would understand." While burping might be a knuckle-dragging male stereotype, it's a practice greatly enjoyed (or not, for those of delicate sensibilities) by all sexes and genders.
Meanwhile, I think Ol' Jet was on point with the emasculation thing, I've had this one hurled at me before, and I just viewed it as the feeble last resort of a desperate person. Eh.
Which is to say, why don't we move on respectfully, instead of disdainfully.
Toughy
11-14-2009, 04:08 PM
what Metro, Bully and Beau said.........
certainly I have been asked to 'tone it down a little'......laughin.......like I can.....however I didn't find it emasculating...not sure how you could emasculate me.....laughin.....
Dean Thoreau
11-14-2009, 04:09 PM
Ok to me the only way anyone is going to emascualte me is if I allow them to.
And easiest way to allow it is by letting them know saying stupid shit bothers me.
I just ignore the comments...cause I know the person making the comment is:
1. looking for a argument
2. wants to be a bitch
3. feeling wounded cause i did somethin stupid; or someone within a 2000 mile radius did and the person is desiring to boost their ego by saying stupid crap to me
4. an insensitive idiot that doesnt have a clue
5. ignorant
6. an asshole
7. all of the above
And bluntly none of the above have the power to shake my masculinity/butchness/ sense of self....and If i am dating/married/ involved with a person like that....I am the asshole.
at my age,,gas happens..be thankful it was a burp!
Anyone else get annoyed by the "butch sterotype" handy? likes power tools? can fix things?
Fine I burp but..I cant fix things..i dont like being thought of as the person that can fix the door, the light switch, or the one who wants to go up the ladder and clean the leaves from the gutters.
I now have tools..all sorts...that out of necessity I have had to buy because once in a while I get this brainstorm of an idea to build something. But that does not mean I know how to fix or repair things in the house.....like....toilets, sinks, or cars..... My Diva's are convinced if they call me it will magically be fixed... not sure why cause my response is usually.....looks broekn to me......... then I say call the repair person, the mechanic, the tow truck, the plumber, the elctrician....
Admin
11-14-2009, 04:27 PM
Ok to me the only way anyone is going to emascualte me is if I allow them to.
And easiest way to allow it is by letting them know saying stupid shit bothers me.
I just ignore the comments...cause I know the person making the comment is:
1. looking for a argument
2. wants to be a bitch
3. feeling wounded cause i did somethin stupid; or someone within a 2000 mile radius did and the person is desiring to boost their ego by saying stupid crap to me
4. an insensitive idiot that doesnt have a clue
5. ignorant
6. an asshole
7. all of the above
And bluntly none of the above have the power to shake my masculinity/butchness/ sense of self....and If i am dating/married/ involved with a person like that....I am the asshole.
at my age,,gas happens..be thankful it was a burp!
Hey Dean,
I get what you are saying about how you feel like nobody can emasculate you. That is great for you.
What comments like "only a Butch would understand" and the subsequent examples of "burping or farting" do is create an atmosphere that is hostile and unwelcoming to folks who do not embrace the binary. It also can feel gross to have these stereotypes heralded as "the way" in a Queer space. I want to ask you to please do some thinking around this.
As far as saying that someone is making comments to "be a bitch".
This is a very sexist and unwelcoming comment. The word "bitch" is often used in a sexist way to silence women and is unacceptable in that use on this website. You may be comfortable with this verbiage and you are most welcome to use that verbiage in your daily life in your own home but it is not welcome on this site.
I want you to feel welcome here as a member but we have already received numerous reports over things you have posted in other areas. I am asking you as the Administrator to please do some hard thinking about the way you are interacting with the members here.
While I am not asking you to change the way you think, I am asking you to at least give some thought to how what you say makes other people feel.
We do not want to create a site where posturing, hierarchies, sexism, or ignorance is the norm...nor do we want members to feel that their own gender identities or ways of being are being mocked, "othered", or dismissed.
Again, please take some time to do some hard thinking around this issue and take the initiative to make sure that your words are welcoming and inclusive of all ways of being.
Thanks,
Admin
...cause I know the person making the comment is:
1. looking for a argument
2. wants to be a bitch
3. feeling wounded cause i did somethin stupid; or someone within a 2000 mile radius did and the person is desiring to boost their ego by saying stupid crap to me
4. an insensitive idiot that doesnt have a clue
5. ignorant
6. an asshole
7. all of the above
well, needless to say we split, not because of her comments, but because of all the above. I'm male ID'd and transgendered and if she didn't get that in the first placed she shouldn't have let on. It's water under the bridge now, but I'm not the only one who has gone through this. I look at as a low blow and unnessessary. It didn't negate my maleness, it annihlated (sp) my trust. How could some I loved deliver a cheap shot like that...i'm not an asshole for being involved with her, just really stupid.
sharkchomp
11-14-2009, 04:29 PM
The pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed. Is there anything more hurtful short of a breakup? *Opening a brewski waiting to see thoughts on this*:beerbros:
I totally get what you're saying Jet! It's the loss of trust from someone who once said 'I get YOU'. For me, it's not insulting it's more of a betrayal. It doesn't take anything away from who I am but it surely can sting because I care/cared for that person.
~~~shark~~~~~~~~
Sidebar To the Administrator.
Just a note that I think you run one of the coolest ships I've ever seen... and I respect it.
PapaC
11-14-2009, 04:51 PM
I used to do this years ago when I was more into forum participation but this is a new site, so I'd like to suggest something if I may:
maybe there should be a discussion on the definitions of words like:
"emasculate" and "effeminate" as they appear to go hand in hand, and perhaps discuss the antiquity of definitions of these words.
Because I'm looking at the definitions of both online, and I'm not at all impressed with those:
ie:
emasculate
–verb (used with object) 1. to castrate. 2. to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken.
–adjective 3. deprived of or lacking strength or vigor; effeminate.
Origin:
1600–10; < L ēmasculātus (ptp. of ēmasculāre), equiv. to ē- e- + māscul(us) male + -ātus -ate 1
Related forms:
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tion, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tive, adjective
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tor, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅to⋅ry /ɪˈmæskyələˌtɔri, -ˌtoʊri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-mas-kyuh-luh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA , adjective
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate
–adjective 1. (of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine, as softness or delicacy. 2. characterized by excessive softness, delicacy, self-indulgence, etc.: effeminate luxury.
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object) 3. to make or become effeminate.
Origin:
1350–1400; ME < L effēminātus, equiv. to ef- ef- + fēmin(a) woman + -ātus -ate 1
Related forms:
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ly, adverb
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ness, noun
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅na⋅tion, noun
----------------------
It might be beneficial to start a thread to discuss these terms and how it affects *ALL* of us, and/or how that affects different genders on the spectrum.
As for burping... The best burper in *my* world? is that of my sister in law (who presents as femme or has in the past) who can burp out the ENTIRE alphabet. As far as I'm concerned she wins in that gas department.
*waving to all butch buddies*
oh.. and this is a special hello to Metropolis... you didn't know this, but when I post status quips on Facebook, all replies are forwarded to my cell phone, and there I was in the grocery store trying to decide on what kind of chips I wanted last night, while you flirted outrageously with Beau... *on my friggen facebook*... interrupting my grocery shopping.
sheesh... where's the love and why does Beau always get it? I wanna :spank: you both for not including me in brokeback mountain moment. Just sayin' if you're gonna flirt while I'm shopping? It better be with me. ;)
and now for something completely different
YouTube- Monty Python "How Not To Be Seen"
from one who at least wants to be seen here,
Beau :army:
Random
11-14-2009, 04:54 PM
Heys beau...
So.. I have a question that has been burning on the tip of my fingers for YEARS.. but now feel that I can ask this question..
So.. what of the butch who is a living breathing sterotype of what a sterotype of a butch is? You speak for yourself as a non burping femail id butch who has no concerns regarding your masculinity.. Can't a male ID burping, concerned about being demascunlized butch speak up as well?
You get to talk for you.. He gets to talk for him...
I have someone who I call my brother.. He is the stero type of a hard working blue collar masculine ID butch.. When he and his girl get into a fight, she does the *call him by his birth name* to hurt and make him feel bad about himself.. that who he is in his head, is not who he is in body or on paper... it matter to him.. it hurts him... It might not hurt you for someone to call you by your birth name.. But for someone you love and trust to knowingly go for your soft spot.. It's not a lovely thing..
The lovely thing about the world is.. People come in all kinds of flavor.. all different types... Not one way is the right way to be...
Male ID Butchs... they are not just some *stero type* They are living breathing people who have the same right as anyone else to complain, say what makes them smile, what makes them happy, and what makes them cry...
If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being more of the masculine/male ID flavor.. then start one where it's not.... Don't make people feel bad about them selfs because they are different than you...
Huggs.. and much love to the Mrs...
Thanks for this, Metropolis. As a non-burping, female-identified butch, I have no concerns regarding my masculinity. I'd be thrilled to be acknowledged in the world for the different type of woman I am. And, no, no woman/partner/date has ever attacked me for that. Either I'm lucky, or I just have too much natural T to make that an issue. Regardless, I'm mostly disappointed that the first "butch" thread is already centered on male stereotypes as a marker of what butch is. That's just fucking sad.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
*reads Chris's post*
*starts laughing*
'scuse me, Diva, can I borrow this?
*pulls Derailer Crown from Diva's head, plops it onto Chris's*
k y'all, carry on! ;)
I have someone who I call my brother.. He is the stero type of a hard working blue collar masculine ID butch.. When he and his girl get into a fight, she does the *call him by his birth name* to hurt and make him feel bad about himself.. that who he is in his head, is not who he is in body or on paper... it matter to him.. it hurts him... It might not hurt you for someone to call you by your birth name.. But for someone you love and trust to knowingly go for your soft spot.. It's not a lovely thing..
s...
I get this exactly and it does hurt your pride and heart. It's bad enough to feel like you're in the wrong body always saving face and never feeling like you can just be you without being scrutinized and then to have someone you love and whom you wouldn't hurt demoralize and and completely negate your love, your masculinity and your person as being nothing. I don't care how much anyone says they roll off the comments. It's not that easy, not for me because in that moment in time she shattered my trust in the relationship and in the quality of the person i thought her to be....then negated the person whom I thought she loved as "her man"
.. she does the *call him by his birth name* to hurt and make him feel bad about himself.. that who he is in his head, is not who he is in body or on paper... it matter to him.. it hurts him...
I am so sorry to say that I have seen this again and again and again---and not just from Femmes, either--I have seen people of all gender identities in our community do this to each other. It's a very bad habit. There are really no words that adequately describe this kind of deliberately malicious pain-infliction, this silencing, this intention to wipe a person's true being off the face of the earth simply because one doesn't like what they said or did.
You would think that any of us who are concerned about being invisible would be grown-up enough to control ourselves even in anger, grown-up enough to restrain ourselves from this kind of utter disrespect. Invalidating another person's identity, making them invisible simply because we are angry, says nothing about them--but a whole world about us.
I just don't understand why people don't get that.
Heys beau...
So.. what of the butch who is a living breathing sterotype of what a sterotype of a butch is? You speak for yourself as a non burping femail id butch who has no concerns regarding your masculinity.. Can't a male ID burping, concerned about being demascunlized butch speak up as well?
No delineation was made as to butch IDs. Everyone can speak up everywhere. I did not say otherwise.
You get to talk for you.. He gets to talk for him...
Obviously. I spoke only for myself.
I have someone who I call my brother.. He is the stero type of a hard working blue collar masculine ID butch.. When he and his girl get into a fight, she does the *call him by his birth name* to hurt and make him feel bad about himself.. that who he is in his head, is not who he is in body or on paper... it matter to him.. it hurts him... It might not hurt you for someone to call you by your birth name.. But for someone you love and trust to knowingly go for your soft spot.. It's not a lovely thing..
I imagine that would hurt very much, yes. I'm sorry for anyone's personal pain.
The lovely thing about the world is.. People come in all kinds of flavor.. all different types... Not one way is the right way to be...
No, there is not one way to be, which is why a stereotype employed to describe all is a problem. Hence, that is my dislike for a characterization of all butches that doesn't fit me.
Male ID Butchs... they are not just some *stero type* They are living breathing people who have the same right as anyone else to complain, say what makes them smile, what makes them happy, and what makes them cry...
If you read my words, you'll see I didn't characterize any IDs as a stereotype, only the behavior specified.
If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being more of the masculine/male ID flavor.. then start one where it's not.... Don't make people feel bad about them selfs because they are different than you...
Again, you misread my words. I was sad that stereotypical male markers were employed in an attempt to define what butch is for all, which is impossible and unfair. I still believe that to be true. I wasn't trying to make anyone feel badly about themselves, nor do I believe that's even within my power to do.
I have no desire to begin any thread that would seek to divide butches into categories, which actually speaks to my original point.
Huggs.. and much love to the Mrs...
respectfully,
Beau
I used to do this years ago when I was more into forum participation but this is a new site, so I'd like to suggest something if I may:
maybe there should be a discussion on the definitions of words like:
"emasculate" and "effeminate" as they appear to go hand in hand, and perhaps discuss the antiquity of definitions of these words.
Because I'm looking at the definitions of both online, and I'm not at all impressed with those:
ie:
emasculate
–verb (used with object) 1. to castrate. 2. to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken.
–adjective 3. deprived of or lacking strength or vigor; effeminate.
Origin:
1600–10; < L ēmasculātus (ptp. of ēmasculāre), equiv. to ē- e- + māscul(us) male + -ātus -ate 1
Related forms:
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tion, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tive, adjective
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tor, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅to⋅ry /ɪˈmæskyələˌtɔri, -ˌtoʊri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-mas-kyuh-luh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA , adjective
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate
–adjective 1. (of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine, as softness or delicacy. 2. characterized by excessive softness, delicacy, self-indulgence, etc.: effeminate luxury.
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object) 3. to make or become effeminate.
Origin:
1350–1400; ME < L effēminātus, equiv. to ef- ef- + fēmin(a) woman + -ātus -ate 1
Related forms:
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ly, adverb
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ness, noun
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅na⋅tion, noun
----------------------
It might be beneficial to start a thread to discuss these terms and how it affects *ALL* of us, and/or how that affects different genders on the spectrum.
As for burping... The best burper in *my* world? is that of my sister in law (who presents as femme or has in the past) who can burp out the ENTIRE alphabet. As far as I'm concerned she wins in that gas department.
*waving to all butch buddies*
oh.. and this is a special hello to Metropolis... you didn't know this, but when I post status quips on Facebook, all replies are forwarded to my cell phone, and there I was in the grocery store trying to decide on what kind of chips I wanted last night, while you flirted outrageously with Beau... *on my friggen facebook*... interrupting my grocery shopping.
sheesh... where's the love and why does Beau always get it? I wanna :spank: you both for not including me in brokeback mountain moment. Just sayin' if you're gonna flirt while I'm shopping? It better be with me. ;)
Oh you're such a wallflower... you should have spoke up... :eyebat:
The pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed. Is there anything more hurtful short of a breakup? *Opening a brewski waiting to see thoughts on this*:beerbros:
Jet - I think part of what it is ... is human psychology. During our courtship our women learn what it is that drives us, inspires us, what are pleasures are, our intimate thoughts, our favorite movies, music, food to eat... and so forth. When it come to the nastiness of a bad argument or break-up, some of them start pushing buttons, they find the thing that insults, shocks, tears us down, etc. the most - and go for the jugular vein...
=unabashedly Burps...Loud, when in company of Close-knit family/friends only...highly amusing...=
*Sneezes hard...covered mouth of course, if the loudness annoys, tough, I cant control that any more than u can control an open mouth Yawn when exhausted..=
= Passes Gas...Yup...I do make sure when appropriate, to TRY and leave the "busy" area...If I hold, I get the stomach cramps, not u..=
Only my immediate relatives are allowed to freely use my Birth name....
Anyone else will get a home-brewed Glare and Correction to use my Legal name...if it persists, I am not responsible for my smart-ass'd cynical/asshole redhead temper.....
= TransMasculine identified stone Butch, Loving this thread=
Personally, I think part of the "things only a butch would understand" is that knowing how to be "handy" and fix things, use tools, learn which tools to buy and which will make your life/ task easier... Does not come at birth!
Generally speaking, most of the butches/ women I know had at least one brother to whom their Dad's "taught" helpful junk to. Fixing cars/ toilets, etc. and as adults, we learned to hate that because we became reliant upon the service industry to do even the simplest repairs/ maintenance tasks.
What this butch understands is that even though my Dad didn't teach me and I spent years waiting and paying for repairs was that I could learn and it was actually pretty cool to do so. Some projects are fraught with frustration "while" I learn, but the end result of being able to do something "handy" for myself kicks ass! Burp! HOO RAH! ~scuse me~
The flip side of this process of tool discovery is the new category of superhero it places me into. I don't think of most butches I know as stereotypical anything. They are doctors, lawyers, chefs, teachers, mechanics, accountants who can or cannot burp , fart, or do floral arrangements with an uncanny grace that is neither masculine or feminine , it is moreover a reflection of confidence and care for the task at hand.
What I do feel pretty certain that all butches might understand is our own need to be exactly whom we are with all of the differences ( often from one another) that that may mean. I identify very strongly with my more masculine traits, however being born in this body and being seen and raised as a "girl" created a strong sense of seeking my own truths. It is just a guess on my part that many ( if not most) butches feel a very deep sense or need ( maybe urgency) to ID ourselves rather than have "any" stereotypes.
I do have an inner "pig" who loves to commandeer the remote, guzzle a brew, and make passionate armchair commentary while watching Hells' Kitchen. ( How many thought I was gonna say football? heh.. gotcha!) I also have a deep desire to make my girls home her sanctuary filling each back breaking chore with love.
I am very interested to see how conversations like this will go in this new space. I sincerely try not to be a shit stirrer and try to see things as an opportunity for me to perhaps expand the way I see the world and myself.
Thanks for some early morning brain candy.. to everyone who has shared!
I do have a things only butches would understand situation that I may get brave enough ( or stupid enough ) to share.. but I will give it a bit to see if this is the right place to do it... LOL!
Again, Thanks a heap folks!
Jess
Tommi
11-15-2009, 07:55 AM
God Morning Jess, nice post.. I am on my way to Sears this am for some more Craftsman Love. My girl loves tools, but willingly and lovingly lets me do the fun stuff, cuz my she likes that suspender snapping peacock strutting way it makes us feel to do things.(take literally)
Wow..I am away for 24 hours and ...the butch world comes out form the shadows and starts burping..
My Mama woulda decked me had I done either, but that's beside the point. But my uncle's were allowed to have conteststs..anyway.
Haven't read all the posts, and won't ....but, here is what came to my mind when I saw the title on the front page this morning.
Only a Butch would understand, that nod we have for each other as we pass each other on the street, or in a restaurant.
Only a Butch would understand that glance she gives us in the mirror when she sees us smiling as she applies her lipstick.
Only a butch would understand, another butch :welcome:
I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.
Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"
Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.
Lastly, sure some butches (of all ID's) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)
We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.
Metro
P.S good post Jess, Tommi
Mister Bent
11-15-2009, 09:40 AM
I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.
Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"
Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.
Lastly, sure some butches (male and female ID) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)
We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.
Metro
Great post Metro, and this is really where I am with the whole issue, as well. The stereotypes are out there, I think they're fairly well documented and don't need reiteration here. I admire how you respectfully addressed that - because being dismissive isn't a one way street and is a poor way to start off a thread that's supposed to be for us.
I am in complete agreement with, "Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention."
In my opinion, one (and only one) of the essential elements of butch is masculinity - female masculinity, masculine women, male identified trans-masculine - however we choose to further define it. Masculinity does not belong solely to cis-gendered men, transmen, stone butches - it belongs to all of us. THAT, in my mind, is our bonding element.
When I saw the title of this thread, I didn't think about passing gas, tools, football or any of those things - because none of these is unique to the butch experience. Plenty of femmes or other - ID'ed folks are adept with their hands, love beer and can change their oil (though I admit I wish I could rebuild an engine). What I hope to see here are those stories of the common formative experiences and the day to day trials.
BullDog
11-15-2009, 10:09 AM
Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.
I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.
Random
11-15-2009, 10:49 AM
Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"
Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.
Metropolis,
I'm sorry..
Sometime, what is in my head doesn't come out right... I was using the / as a *and*
Masculine/male = Those that have/feel masculine energy/id, but do not identify with male and those who have masculine energy and also feel male Identity..
I wish I could post what another butch would understand.
But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least.
Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.
BullDog
11-15-2009, 11:20 AM
Thanks for your post Jet. I do sincerely wish the best for you as well. I am pondering your post and thinking that understanding is not always a given among butches, but a process that sometimes may take some time- and that's ok.
I wish I could post what another butch would understand.
But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least.
Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.
It's understandable, being that fresh... we'll be here when you feel like it... I'm sure there's more than a few of us who've been through similar.
In the mean time hope you stick around and just enjoy the discussions, comradery and general what-not.
Peace to you too
Metro
(Ms Cyn... no apoligies needed, and thx for your clarification)
God Morning Jess, nice post.. I am on my way to Sears this am for some more Craftsman Love. My girl loves tools, but willingly and lovingly lets me do the fun stuff, cuz my she likes that suspender snapping peacock strutting way it makes us feel to do things.(take literally)
Wow..I am away for 24 hours and ...the butch world comes out form the shadows and starts burping..
My Mama woulda decked me had I done either, but that's beside the point. But my uncle's were allowed to have conteststs..anyway.
Haven't read all the posts, and won't ....but, here is what came to my mind when I saw the title on the front page this morning.
Only a Butch would understand, that nod we have for each other as we pass each other on the street, or in a restaurant.
Only a Butch would understand that glance she gives us in the mirror when she sees us smiling as she applies her lipstick.
Only a butch would understand, another butch :welcome:
LOL... she always tilts her head at me, holds out the lipstick and smirking says ... "want some?"
Mister Bent
11-15-2009, 12:16 PM
Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.
I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.
Right. I probably could have worded that a little better, and I appreciate your post all around.
By bonding element I meant something more in the manner of what I said toward the end of my post, that "masculinity" doesn't belong solely to one group of masculine people and, further, that there is no "hierarchy" of masculinity with which to segregate (I hate that shit).
I, too, have seen incidents where female and woman identified butches have been "erased" or treated as "less than," which I find absurd and harmful. I no more want someone policing my identity, my "butchness" than I want to do so to another. And it does go both ways, which you've no doubt seen, wherein the male identity is criticized as not being what butch is, or not belonging in queer space. You've been around, you know the drill. Regardless, I personally try to honor, and am thankful for the long history of butch. I may be male identified, but butch is meaningful to me, and most evocative (to me), of who I am.
"Being butch" isn't something with which I automatically bond with others either, but the experiences that come of being butch - maybe. Real bonding comes from more than simply sharing a common thread.
Dean Thoreau
11-15-2009, 02:39 PM
jess, can I give your phone number to the 6 diva's? you can be there super hero...at the fixing plunging stuff you look better in the blue tights!.
RockyMountainButch
11-15-2009, 07:07 PM
Hey hows it going yall? Jet, where you been man? Nice to see you here. A friend sent me here so gonna check it out. :cigar:
blush
11-15-2009, 07:43 PM
Jet - I think part of what it is ... is human psychology. During our courtship our women learn what it is that drives us, inspires us, what are pleasures are, our intimate thoughts, our favorite movies, music, food to eat... and so forth. When it come to the nastiness of a bad argument or break-up, some of them start pushing buttons, they find the thing that insults, shocks, tears us down, etc. the most - and go for the jugular vein...
Stating the obvious...
It strikes me that people who pull this trick (finding weak spots and exploiting them in a fight) are not limited to any gender, sexuality, or identity.
They're simply assholes.
To say "our women" do this or that is gets my hackles up. It implies femmes and this type of asshole behavior go hand-in-hand. They don't.
Darth Denkay
11-15-2009, 08:20 PM
This is so true Tommi - such a great gesture.
Only a Butch would understand, that nod we have for each other as we pass each other on the street, or in a restaurant.
apretty
11-15-2009, 08:26 PM
This is so true Tommi - such a great gesture.
that probably is a butch + butch thing--i'm less likely to nod and much more apt to say: HI SAILOR!
(well, in my single days--a girl's gotta eat!)
Queerasfck
11-15-2009, 08:31 PM
that probably is a butch + butch thing--i'm less likely to nod and much more apt to say: HI SAILOR!
(well, in my single days--a girl's gotta eat!)
hmmmm, so maybe you really weren't really a virgin when we met
apretty
11-15-2009, 08:43 PM
hmmmm, so maybe you really weren't really a virgin when we met
ew yes i was/am!
Darth Denkay
11-15-2009, 08:57 PM
Hi all!
I'm going to use this portion of Jess's post as a jumping off point...maybe I should ask first...nah, it's all good.
I absolutely agree with the statement that being a happy handyman does not come at birth. I'm going to take it a step farther and add that sometimes it never comes (not implying that you indicated that it did). I've got a small tool box with your basic set of tools. I can do minor repairs around the house but I'm not going to try anything that's too difficult. Usually if something needs to be fixed I look it up online, see if it looks do-able, and if not I'm calling the repair guy.
It does occur to me that as an adult I have generally always rented, meaning I don't have to pay for repairs. One of these days when I buy again, that might be motivation to try and pick up more skills. Then again, maybe it won't.
Same thing with my car - I can do the basic maintenance but I've got a great mechanic for anything beyond that.
Speaking of cars, I've noticed that my straight guy friends seem to go with the stereotype that I give a shit about cars. We'll be driving around and they're talking about models and years and such - I'm politely nodding my head but really couldn't care less. I can't identify a car until I'm close enough to see the model written on the back. It's just something I'm not interested in.
I was talking to a butch friend a while back and he was concerned because he felt as though because he's a butch he should be a happy handyman in order to take care of his partner. I pointed out that some partners are quite capable of taking care of home maintenance. Beyond that though, just because I may not do the repairs with my own hands doesn't mean I'm not taking care of my partner. I'm not good with my hands (well, at least in that way ;) )but I know who to call when something comes up.
I've got a fairly unrelated question as to how butches prefer to be referred to (knowing that this is personal preference, there is no single answer. We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.
Personally, I think part of the "things only a butch would understand" is that knowing how to be "handy" and fix things, use tools, learn which tools to buy and which will make your life/ task easier... Does not come at birth!
Generally speaking, most of the butches/ women I know had at least one brother to whom their Dad's "taught" helpful junk to. Fixing cars/ toilets, etc. and as adults, we learned to hate that because we became reliant upon the service industry to do even the simplest repairs/ maintenance tasks.
What this butch understands is that even though my Dad didn't teach me and I spent years waiting and paying for repairs was that I could learn and it was actually pretty cool to do so. Some projects are fraught with frustration "while" I learn, but the end result of being able to do something "handy" for myself kicks ass! Burp! HOO RAH! ~scuse me~
Jess
*reads Chris's post*
*starts laughing*
'scuse me, Diva, can I borrow this?
*pulls Derailer Crown from Diva's head, plops it onto Chris's*
k y'all, carry on! ;)
Wait.
You took my Tiara????? :princess::superfunny:
Right.
Tommi
11-15-2009, 10:46 PM
This is so true Tommi - such a great gesture.
Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick :cowboy:
and to Metro, who likes what he sees..:lips:
So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.
1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?
2. To whom, yourself included?
Hey hows it going yall? Jet, where you been man? Nice to see you here. A friend sent me here so gonna check it out. :cigar:
hey welcome good to to see you again
Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick :cowboy:
and to Metro, who likes what he sees..:lips:
So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.
1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?
2. To whom, yourself included?
I think it's a difficult question because the first time it was verbally acknowledged someone had said it to/about me first, that I was butch, and I don't think I've ever really said it to anyone in a informative type of context.
So I guess I acknowledged it, said it (the word) about myself internally after it being said to me at as a teenager (like 19 I think)...
Ok I think that's right around 10 words... ;)
Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick :cowboy:
and to Metro, who likes what he sees..:lips:
So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.
1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?
2. To whom, yourself included?
Like Metro, it was said "about " me first.. in the second grade, by my babysitter's niece... "here comes my little butch" .. I went home and asked momma what it meant. She said it meant that babysitters niece was mean.
I don't think I truly embraced the term until I was around 35 and began seeking out folks who were also embracing it.
Sorry... that wasn't ten words or less... my girl says I practice "butch math" which means more bigger better harder faster.. LOL!
Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick :cowboy:
and to Metro, who likes what he sees..:lips:
So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.
1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?
2. To whom, yourself included?
I felt different at the age of four. It was when I fell to my knees over a girl at 16 that I knew I was butch. I told my best friends.
Hey hows it going yall? Jet, where you been man? Nice to see you here. A friend sent me here so gonna check it out. :cigar:
Hey did you get my post at the other site about Colorado? My kin are in Boulder, Ft. Collins, Greeley, Sterling, Telluride, and Denver, Windsor..we have a lot in common as Colorado is my home state. Keep in touch dude.
BullDog
11-16-2009, 11:07 AM
I just ran across a thread with a link to a video that I hadn't seen before, so I thought I would post the link in case others hadn't seen it as well. It looks like the video is about an hour long, and I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I believe it is a very important topic. Here is the link:
Tough Guise (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6444#post6444)
I feel that unexamined masculinity is a big problem in our current day queer and butch femme cultures.
Greyson
11-16-2009, 10:11 PM
We do not want to create a site where posturing, hierarchies, sexism, or ignorance is the norm...nor do we want members to feel that their own gender identities or ways of being are being mocked, "othered", or dismissed.
Again, please take some time to do some hard thinking around this issue and take the initiative to make sure that your words are welcoming and inclusive of all ways of being.
Thanks,
Admin
I have not had much time the past few days to peruse and hang out in cyber land. I've had a pretty hard day in the "real world" and reading this made me smile. Thanks.
Greyson
11-16-2009, 10:16 PM
I just ran across a thread with a link to a video that I hadn't seen before, so I thought I would post the link in case others hadn't seen it as well. It looks like the video is about an hour long, and I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I believe it is a very important topic. Here is the link:
Tough Guise (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6444#post6444)
I feel that unexamined masculinity is a big problem in our current day queer and butch femme cultures.
Bull Dog, LTNS. I was just going to sign off and the last line about "unexamined masculinity" caught my eye. If I understand you correctly, I agree. When I have more time, I will come back and view the video. I know you already know but for anyone reading this I identify as a Transmasculine Butch.
Good to see you again. Bye for now.
BullDog
11-16-2009, 11:04 PM
Thanks Greyson, it's good to see you and I look forward to your thoughts. I haven't gotten much of any response at all so far, and I have posted this here as well as 2 very large butch groups on Facebook. Thank you very much.
Toughy
11-17-2009, 01:30 PM
Bully....
give me a little time to take a look at the video.....then I'm sure I'll have some comments.....
unexamined masculinity.....interesting idea..........
The video is interesting, thanks for posting.
Darth Denkay
11-17-2009, 02:36 PM
Knew I was butch (adjective) since pretty much forever.
Knew I was a butch (noun) when I first learned about the B-F community sometime in the late 90s.
So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.
1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?
2. To whom, yourself included?[/B][/COLOR]
BullDog
11-17-2009, 02:37 PM
Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.
Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.
I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.
Darth Denkay
11-17-2009, 02:40 PM
Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...
We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.
Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...
We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.
I think on some level, maybe it is erasing. When I first recognized and embraced my masculinity and found a place welcoming me to do so, it was one of those lightbulb kind of moments. I ran headlong toward the "freedom" of being addressed as "hy" or "he". The longer I am around the b-f community however, the less I am likely to care which pronoun is used.
Cyclopea
11-17-2009, 06:05 PM
Is there some way to tell who gave this thread a one star rating? Or is the rating system anonymous. :confused: Why would someone do that?
Cyclopea, I believe the thread rating system is anonymous... and apparently someone simply doesn't like the thread. I'm sure after it's gets rated by a few more peeps it will even it self out.
BullDog
11-17-2009, 06:39 PM
Is there some way to tell who gave this thread a one star rating? Or is the rating system anonymous. :confused: Why would someone do that?
Yikes, it might have been me by mistake. I saw your post and looking at the little stars it says I rated the thread. I have never tried to rate a thread in my life. Sorry if it was me- I give the thread 10 stars! A couple times on another forum I almost reported someone when I was trying to Rep, lol.
Yikes, it might have been me by mistake. I saw your post and looking at the little stars it says I rated the thread. I have never tried to rate a thread in my life. Sorry if it was me- I give the thread 10 stars! A couple times on another forum I almost reported someone when I was trying to Rep, lol.
It says I rated it too :doh: which is odd, coz I only now found out how in reading Bulldog's post then looking for the little stars ... I agree, it's a good thread!
Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...
We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.
Hey WicketWarrick, I didn't miss your question but have been pondering.
I'll probably post some thoughts on it later... but my mouse died today and using this touch pad to edit my posts/move curser etc. is driving me nuts.
Yikes, it might have been me by mistake. I saw your post and looking at the little stars it says I rated the thread. I have never tried to rate a thread in my life. Sorry if it was me- I give the thread 10 stars! A couple times on another forum I almost reported someone when I was trying to Rep, lol.
Ha... no... I don't think it was you, I think there's a glitch in the rating system. ;)
BullDog
11-17-2009, 07:35 PM
It says I rated it too :doh: which is odd, coz I only now found out how in reading Bulldog's post then looking for the little stars ... I agree, it's a good thread!
LOL Jess, I hope this isn't a downward spiral.
Metro must be right. It's not like I would ever make a bonehead mistake or anything, ha ha.
BullDog
11-17-2009, 07:43 PM
Wicket I would prefer not to be referred to as bro. To me that is male language, and I don't want myself or all butches to be referred to with male default language. For those who prefer male pronouns I of course refer to them that way. I know I have seen in other places where other butches have said they preferred not to be called bro as well, but it wasn't on this forum. Thanks for asking.
Greyson
11-17-2009, 09:26 PM
Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.
Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.
I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.
Bully, I am on my home desk top right now and this computer is about to hit the recycle bin. I could not run the video on this relic. I tried. Hence, I am going to use your above post to comment on "unexamined masculinity." The portions I agree with are in blue. The underlined portions is where I disagree or need further clarification.
"Having male identified people in it changes things." Are you talking about male privilege? Just to throw in another wrench to all of this; what if you pass as male consistently but are female identified butch? In my mind this could also be a potential example of perception that provides for male privilege.
Honestly, when I started to take T 18 months ago, something inside of my conciousness shifted. I became much more cognizant of the fact that I was going to be treated with more respect by many because of their perception. Frankly it took me many years to make the decision to take T. For me, I did not think taking T would make myself that much different from when I identified as simply a Butch. But as I move further into my transition I am looking much more closely at masculinity and what does that mean in the macro and micro.
I have hopes of being a hybrid model of a masculine entity that is the combination of all aspects of who I am. A Butch/Transman, socialized as a woman now presenting as masculine, "male."
The examination of masculinity now even more so will beongoing. I am treading new territory and have no intention of abandoning the Butch-Femme Queer community.
I realize my post is scattered. I'm tired but I think you have brought up a very important and timely topic for discussion.
BullDog
11-17-2009, 10:06 PM
Greyson thank you for your post. I am not quite sure where you disagree with me, but we can always further discuss. Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities. Female/women identified butches have to fight like hell to be seen or heard, male defaults get used for butch- all of which is ridiculous since most butches do identify as female. The reason we have to fight like hell is because butch gets equated to male and male is more valued.
As another example- gay men are masculine as well- some more than others. Whenever I have been in mixed settings lesbian/gay men the power dynamic is completely different than with just a lesbian setting. It is still a queer setting, but men tend to take over and take up a disproportionate amount of space.
You say you expect to be treated better now that you take T- to me that is a privilege. The fact that you recognize that the examination of masculinity as a Butch/Transman is ongoing and you find the discussion important to me means you are willing to take responsibility and work for change, and I appreciate that very much.
Cyclopea
11-17-2009, 10:39 PM
Thank you for your answers. I was dumbfounded as to why the only negatively rated thread was the butch bonding thread. :eek:
As to the questions others have asked: I became conscious of being butch when others kept telling me I was. Often prefaced by the word "too". :hrmph:
And the pronouns- No I do not like being called bro or male pronouns. Out in the world I just assume the person is not paying very close attention. Unless it's a 'phobe saying it, in which case they are implying I am less than a real woman. If it is online from a stranger I just assume they are sexist and misogynist and that they elevate maleness over femaleness. Of course for those who prefer male pronouns for themselves I respect that preference completely. In that instance the person is only being themselves and I respect the bros that do. But I am not a bro.
Aso, I do burp on occasion but I try not to :fart:.
Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...
We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.
Through the years I've referred to many of my butch friends as bro yes, and couldn't count the times it's been used on me.
Is it appropriate being as I'm not male ID(?)... interesting, I dunno, still thinking on it... the friends who have used it for the overwhelmingly know how I ID. Does it feel erasing? No... but I can see where it could. I do think it's definately one of those "ask first" things, just out of respect.
And that's all I got on that right now... good questions though
Metro
Hudson
11-17-2009, 10:57 PM
Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.
I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.
Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.
Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.
I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.
The statements I bolded in blue sound contradictory to me. Is it just me?
The statements in red seem contradictory to me as well.
Also, what would you deem the "positive aspects of masculinity", as you put it? Conversely, what would you consider the positive aspects of femininity to be? Or the negative for that matter? Also you seem to categorize sexism and violence as masculinity, yet you identify as masculine. How does one go about extracting only the positive 'male' or 'masculine' qualities from 'masculinity'? Are females or feminine people never sexist or violent?
What has always and continues to confound me is why masculine/masculine-identified/transmasculine butches, who are female-identified, seem insistent on attributing certain traits/behaviors (you know, the ones we can all be proud of - independence, capability, strength, resourcefulness/handiness, farting prowess, etc) to males/masculinity to begin with. And then I'm told I "can't just be here to get fluffed up and told how manly I am." Well, to that I say, don't fluff me up and tell me how manly I am. ha.
And then the same butch (not picking on you bulldog but since you did it this time...:) will go on to direct the general 'you' here (which includes me, a male) on how to behave in what I'm hearing you say is (predominantly, if not completely biologically) female space, of which I am unfailingly aware. You said, "You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things." I agree. That's why I don't feel I can have it both ways. But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.
I personally never hear anyone other than female-identified butches talking about this continuum of masculinity that seems to exist somewhere. Creating and perpetuating this type of hierarchy is sexist and misogynist, when anyone does it. I find it especially betraying when females do it to other females, butch and femme alike, especially to women of trans experience who are femme or are female-identified butches and were socialized to be someone's/society's idea of what is 'male' or 'masculine' and are trying to find acceptance and safety in a b-f space as females.
Let me pose a question to the general you - if you're female-identified and you gender behaviors and personality traits, why don't you attribute your best to your female socialization and your female traits/hormones that are inherent within you? (And I'm not talking just compassion and nurturing and those stereotypically female traits here - strength, power, determination, bravery, assertiveness, resourcefulness - you don't think you developed these qualities by living in a female body? And I've not transitioned so I'm not speaking from a place of male privilege here because I do not receive it. I'm speaking as someone who has experienced oppression and discrimination and sexism and misogyny in a female body just like everyone else here at one time or another. In my own sexist mind my best qualities are because of female hormones and socialization. I know these communities are microcosms of a larger society but why bring the larger society's norms into your queer space and perpetuate them? If you can't change patterns of thinking within your little corner of queer space then you're not likely to change the world outside of that space.
Tommi
11-18-2009, 06:55 AM
"only another butch would understand", Hmmmm.. looking at title.
Hmmm..looking at posts..Looking up understand..Google Butch, and see what the world "understands" about us..Hmmm
Butch and femme
http:////www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv89wbZHzNQ
""Quote: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Butch (disambiguation).
Butch and femme are LGBT terms describing respectively, masculine and feminine traits, behaviour, style, expression, self-perception and so on. They are often used in the lesbian, bisexual and gay subcultures. A similar term, femme is also frequently used in the crossdressing community. Sometimes butch is used synonymously with dyke.
Happy Hump Day to those Butches that understand.
Butch and femme are sometimes used to represent two sides of a relationship, as in yin and yang, although some people prefer butch-butch and femme-femme relationships."""end quote
I Know What Butch Is.
YouTube- I Know What Butch Is
LMAO Tommi, ty ever so much! I haven't read this yet and it will be on my" list of books this butch will actually read," unless I can find it on audio book in which case I will listen to it while driving to meet my femme for a date that I will pay for unless she wants to or I will wait for the movie which I will take her to and open the door for her and buy her popcorn unless of course she decides that we should see it at at LGBT pvt viewing at the community center, which we of course do not have because we live in the southside of hillbilly hell.
I will definitely be buying this because it reminds me so much of how the heated threads on line regarding "defining and labeling" so often go.
Needed a good chuckle this morning, thank you Tommi:clap:
BullDog
11-18-2009, 09:40 AM
The statements I bolded in blue sound contradictory to me. Is it just me?
The statements in red seem contradictory to me as well.
Also, what would you deem the "positive aspects of masculinity", as you put it? Conversely, what would you consider the positive aspects of femininity to be? Or the negative for that matter? Also you seem to categorize sexism and violence as masculinity, yet you identify as masculine. How does one go about extracting only the positive 'male' or 'masculine' qualities from 'masculinity'? Are females or feminine people never sexist or violent?
What has always and continues to confound me is why masculine/masculine-identified/transmasculine butches, who are female-identified, seem insistent on attributing certain traits/behaviors (you know, the ones we can all be proud of - independence, capability, strength, resourcefulness/handiness, farting prowess, etc) to males/masculinity to begin with. And then I'm told I "can't just be here to get fluffed up and told how manly I am." Well, to that I say, don't fluff me up and tell me how manly I am. ha.
And then the same butch (not picking on you bulldog but since you did it this time...:) will go on to direct the general 'you' here (which includes me, a male) on how to behave in what I'm hearing you say is (predominantly, if not completely biologically) female space, of which I am unfailingly aware. You said, "You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things." I agree. That's why I don't feel I can have it both ways. But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.
I personally never hear anyone other than female-identified butches talking about this continuum of masculinity that seems to exist somewhere. Creating and perpetuating this type of hierarchy is sexist and misogynist, when anyone does it. I find it especially betraying when females do it to other females, butch and femme alike, especially to women of trans experience who are femme or are female-identified butches and were socialized to be someone's/society's idea of what is 'male' or 'masculine' and are trying to find acceptance and safety in a b-f space as females.
Let me pose a question to the general you - if you're female-identified and you gender behaviors and personality traits, why don't you attribute your best to your female socialization and your female traits/hormones that are inherent within you? (And I'm not talking just compassion and nurturing and those stereotypically female traits here - strength, power, determination, bravery, assertiveness, resourcefulness - you don't think you developed these qualities by living in a female body? And I've not transitioned so I'm not speaking from a place of male privilege here because I do not receive it. I'm speaking as someone who has experienced oppression and discrimination and sexism and misogyny in a female body just like everyone else here at one time or another. In my own sexist mind my best qualities are because of female hormones and socialization. I know these communities are microcosms of a larger society but why bring the larger society's norms into your queer space and perpetuate them? If you can't change patterns of thinking within your little corner of queer space then you're not likely to change the world outside of that space.
Ben-Her I have no idea why you see the parts of my posts that you bolded in red and blue as contradictory. You have lost me there.
You said this: But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.
You seem to be saying this as if you are disagreeing with me, but I agree with this whole heartedly.
I also agree that my best traits come from my experience being socialized as a female.
I am confused where your disagreements with me are.
Admin
11-18-2009, 11:19 AM
Just to be clear:
This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.
I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.
One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.
BullDog
11-18-2009, 11:28 AM
Thank you!
Unndunn
11-18-2009, 11:55 AM
Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...
We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.
I'm coming late into this thread, but I appreciate you asking this question. I'm a female ID butch and being called bro or anything like it doesn't bother me. I don't care about being referred to as he rather than she. The only thing I don't like is being called one of those "other" pronouns like hy, shy, etc. I know some people love them and that's fine, but not for me.
It also would take quite a bit to make me feel erased or not included. It usually only happens when I'm told that I'm not a butch if I'm female ID, or that I can't be a woman and still be masculine. Other than that I'm fine.
And for the record, I love fixing things and can repair or build just about anything but don't like working on cars. I'm not big on burping or doing anything else like that in front of others if I can avoid it. Table manners, etc matter to me. I am very comfortable around straight men (I have 4 brothers, no sisters) and often feel like a foreigner around straight women.
evolveme
11-18-2009, 12:00 PM
Greyson thank you for your post. I am not quite sure where you disagree with me, but we can always further discuss. Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities. Female/women identified butches have to fight like hell to be seen or heard, male defaults get used for butch- all of which is ridiculous since most butches do identify as female. The reason we have to fight like hell is because butch gets equated to male and male is more valued.
Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.
Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)
But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?
And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."
Gryph
11-18-2009, 12:18 PM
Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick :cowboy:
and to Metro, who likes what he sees..:lips:
So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.
1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?
2. To whom, yourself included?
I was called a butch in junior high school, I didn't acknowledge it in myself until I was in my early 30's. After I had left an abusive marriage(yes to a bio-male) of 11years.
I still wasn't fully comfortable with being quite as male ID as I am even after my Two-Spirit vision, as I have been since my girl came into my life. She is the one who has brought out the male that I was hiding for so many years.
BullDog
11-18-2009, 12:36 PM
Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.
Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)
But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?
And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."
Older Second Wave feminisms- wow I certainly disagree with you there.
Mythic misogyny- wow once again. don't mean to be flippant, I just can't believe you would say that.
Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default? Wow once again. None of the butches I know real time use these male defaults and we have no problem distinguishing who are the butches and who are the femmes. As to the online history I certainly have a completely different take on things than you do.
apretty
11-18-2009, 12:48 PM
Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default?
hey Bulldog, i gave this some thought too and i realize that we all (yes, including F -identified butches) have to take some responsibility here for either not speaking up, personally or not questioning the immense use of *HE* when/while it was happening. i think that's actually pretty fair--we *all* need to take some ownership of what it means when we male-by-default or when we don't carve a space for ourselves in the community. either way, all of us owning it is a good thing, to me, it's a great starting (over?) point.
BullDog
11-18-2009, 12:54 PM
hey Bulldog, i gave this some thought too and i realize that we all (yes, including F -identified butches) have to take some responsibility here for either not speaking up, personally or not questioning the immense use of *HE* when/while it was happening. i think that's actually pretty fair--we *all* need to take some ownership of what it means when we male-by-default or when we don't carve a space for ourselves in the community. either way, all of us owning it is a good thing, to me, it's a great starting (over?) point.
I agree we all need to speak up. That is what I am doing now and I, along with other butches like Toughy, have a very long history for speaking up about this very topic. We have worked tirelessly against the invisibility of women and female identified butches. And we have gotten a lot of shit for it along with some support. But yes, I whole heartedly agree with you. Thank you for your post.
SuperFemme
11-18-2009, 12:58 PM
Isn't "Male Privilege" akin to "White Privilege" in that because of gender (real or perceived) certain privileges are given even though not strived for?
Dreams
11-18-2009, 12:59 PM
Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.
Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)
But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?
And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."
excellent post!!
evolveme
11-18-2009, 01:04 PM
Older Second Wave feminisms- wow I certainly disagree with you there.
Mythic misogyny- wow once again. don't mean to be flippant, I just can't believe you would say that.
Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default? Wow once again. None of the butches I know real time use these male defaults and we have no problem distinguishing who are the butches and who are the femmes. As to the online history I certainly have a completely different take on things than you do.
I called it mythic, not because misogyny hasn't happened in our online spaces, but because yesterday it felt to me that you were separating female id'd folks from the male id'd ones in the Who is Just a Bit More Responsible for Examining Their Masculinity. It sounded like transmasculine guys and transmen might be more responsible for misogyny in these spaces. That isn't what I've seen. Hell, I've watched some femmes say some pretty righteous things over the years. And don't misinterpret my investment here. I haven't any. I love every kind of butch there is - equally. I just care that we don't isolate.
And when I first started reading butch/femme spaces, practically *everyone* was he or hy/she-ing. Tell me, who is responsible, if not... all of us?
evolveme
11-18-2009, 01:12 PM
Isn't "Male Privilege" akin to "White Privilege" in that because of gender (real or perceived) certain privileges are given even though not strived for?
That's the thing, though, honey.
Show me the privilege.
What privilege are we automatically granting to our male id'd folks and transmen here that nobody else has? The privilege to say righteous shit and get away with it? I haven't seen that.
Am I blind?
SuperFemme
11-18-2009, 01:34 PM
I am not a carrier of male privilege, but I'd love to hear from others if they feel it is somethings butches/trans people incur.
The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/10/10/some-evidence-of-discrimination-wage-gap-series-part-9/)).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/male-privilege-checklist-harassment-car-sales-housecleaning-and-weight/)).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/men-are-much-less-likely-to-be-victims-of-rape/)).
8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.
9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/07/male-privilege-checklist-a-couple-of-childhood-issues/)).
12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.
13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.
15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/07/male-privilege-checklist-a-couple-of-childhood-issues/)).
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.
18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/16/gender-bias-in-the-classroom-do-teachers-give-boys-more-attention/)).
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.
21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.
22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.
23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.
24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/08/15/male-privilege-checklist-the-slut-phenomenon/)).
25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/01/male-privilege-checklist-clothing-related-issues/)).
26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/01/male-privilege-checklist-clothing-related-issues/)).
27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/01/male-privilege-checklist-clothing-related-issues/)).
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/male-privilege-checklist-harassment-car-sales-housecleaning-and-weight/)).
29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.
30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)
32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.
34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.
35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.
36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.
37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.
38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/male-privilege-checklist-harassment-car-sales-housecleaning-and-weight/)).
39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.
40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.
41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.
42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/male-privilege-checklist-harassment-car-sales-housecleaning-and-weight/)). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/01/why-dont-studies-find-discrimination-against-fat-men/)).
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/09/how-commonly-are-men-beaten-up-by-intimate-partners/)).
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/10/07/smile-damn-you-smile/) 2 (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/10/01/miss-manners-and-smiling/)).
45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
Medusa
11-18-2009, 01:38 PM
(gently)
I think one of the ways that Male privilege might play out in an online forum is that many (most?) men on this site will not have to constantly correct people on their preferred pronoun.
(and this is, again, an example of a privilege that is inherited and not asked for)
edited to add: recognizing also that most Femmes have this identity privlege as well.
BullDog
11-18-2009, 01:44 PM
Following up on Medusa's example, time and time again I have seen people online state that when they are not sure what pronoun to use they use the male pronoun to make sure they don't offend anyone. It is considered safer- less offensive. I have read this multiple times over the years and some from very well meaning people that I really liked and respected.
It is not the honest mistake that is the problem. Male is clearly valued over female out in the world- our butch femme online communities have been no different.
I welcome the fresh start here on this website. :)
Toughy
11-18-2009, 01:53 PM
<snip> I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. <snip>
really???????????
sorry.......ain't buying or drinking that koolaid.........
Medusa
11-18-2009, 02:19 PM
Let me just give a personal narrative here:
(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)
I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.
A good example:
When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".
When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".
Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)
So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.
After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.
My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.
Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".
The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.
This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.
With grace. With respect. With honor.
SuperFemme
11-18-2009, 02:25 PM
Let me just give a personal narrative here:
(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)
I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.
A good example:
When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".
When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".
Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)
So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.
After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.
My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.
Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".
The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.
This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.
With grace. With respect. With honor.
THIS is a great post Medusa. I had been guilty of this myself, until I realized I was doing it.
Medusa
11-18-2009, 02:26 PM
(and I just wanted to clarify that I just re-read my post and wanted to say that when I write something like "calling my partner 'a "he"' that I am NOT intending to "other" anyone who identifies as "he"...just trying to illustrate a compartmentalization from my own perspective)
with respect,
a
BullDog
11-18-2009, 02:39 PM
Medusa, your post is very powerful and speaks very clearly to how all of this has played out over the years. Thank you so much for your post.
What I said yesterday was that having male identified people in a primarily female queer space introduces power dynamics, hierarchies, privileges, etc that would not be there- in the same way- if male identified people were not there, just as white people being in a group of people is different than if it was a community that was made up of all people of color. Does that mean I think that male identified people shouldn't be here? No, it does not. Does it mean I think male identified people are to blame entirely for the hierarchies, the erasure, the misogyny that has taken place. No, I do not. We have all played a role in it.
However, I believe that male identified people have a responsibility to recognize that their presence does make an impact and it absolutely has to do with how male is valued over female- in society and in queer communities. The fact that transmen have their own struggles does not lessen this fact. I believe transphobia stems from misogyny as well.
Let me just give a personal narrative here:
(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)
I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.
A good example:
When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".
When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".
Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)
So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.
After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.
My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.
Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".
The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.
This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.
With grace. With respect. With honor.
As a butch woman, often referenced and mistaken for male in 3d space (not to mention online), your post truly resonates for me. Butches like me really needed to see so much of what you've said acknowledged, and I can't state enough how much your words are appreciated.
I've been out for 30 years, and only online has this been an issue for me -- not because people don't refer to me as "he" in the real world, but because within my own butch-femme community I never thought I'd have to fight to be seen for who I am. I'm tired of this conversation, and yet I know it needs to take place if only to help butches who are still coming out realize that it's okay to retain a female identity without having their "butchness" questioned, scrutinized, or devalued. (If that identity is what is true for them.) And in no way does that (or should that) discount those who male-ID; it just doesn't allow that to be the default. Do I believe it's a product of internalized homophobia and/or misogyny? Yes, most likely in many cases; however, generally I believe it is more a result of habit. Habits can be broken and should be if they're detrimental. This nasty habit has erased many and created an aritificial, bullshit hierarchy that is detrimental to our cohesion as a community online.
I'm swamped with work presently and should not even be on here reading, let alone posting, but I just had to publicly express my gratitude for your ownership of your actions and your perspective on how this can be addressed.
in admiration and respect,
Beau, who'd really prefer to be "just butch"
evolveme
11-18-2009, 04:34 PM
really???????????
sorry.......ain't buying or drinking that koolaid.........
Toughy, I apologize. I should have been more clear:
I believe the automatic he, hy/she-ing has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners who participated in and/or allowed this to go on without speaking up. See, I do not and will not ever believe that the number of transmasculine folks compares. It can't have been that they were enforcing this behavior via the terrible power of misogyny. And like Medusa, I have been guilty of doing it myself - in a relationship where it went on for some time until we both looked at each other and asked, "Why?" Even she didn't know. It seemed the thing to do, and harmless enough. (It wasn't.)
I have witnessed both you and Bulldog fight for your own recognition, however, and I was always and still am glad for this.
What I argue here is what seems like a false dichotomy. I disagree that we can compare queer people or born-female-bodied ones who inhabit male space/identity as the Oppressor. As He Who Must Examine His Misogynist Tendencies More Than Us. It sets him apart. And I believe that 'setting apart' is the rub. Most transpeople, to my mind, are not receiving privilege.
Not in this space, and not in any other.
I disbelieve even an online space allows for it.
I call the notion that they are misandry. Transphobia, possibly. I don't know. But it feels...wrong.
We have all had these discussions before. I want every woman here - butch or no - to be recognized. I have always felt this way. But I also do not want to see an 'othering' take place where transfolk are somehow shouldering the responsibility of the misogyny that was born of a patriarchy that does not even allow for their existence.
Darth Denkay
11-18-2009, 04:57 PM
This is great news. When I was new on another site I got the impression that male pronouns were the default for butches, and because I am masculine-identified that suited me just fine. It wasn't until years later that I realized that was not okay with some people. It has been difficult to know how to refer to folks, and having this specified I hope will have a significant impact on valuing all butches.
In reading over this thread, one thing jumped out at me. I don't know how prevalent this is, but I actually do not identify as female or male. Now, biologically I am female (sex) but when female and male are used to define gender I don't use either. I see it as once again falling into a binary. I identify as masculine, I have masculine energy, but I am not male. A butch friend once described himself as FTNF - female to not female - which really resonates with me. The act of not identifying as female (gender) but not identifying as male either.
Binaries suck, because they seldom, if ever, work.
Just to be clear:
This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.
I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.
One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.
Toughy
11-18-2009, 07:32 PM
D U S A ! ! !
I love you baby...........thank you so much for speaking up....that was hard to do and I, for one, really appreciate that you did..........the role of femmes in the male pronoun default has always been on my mind.....
----------
e
I will have to come back to you. I am recovering from pneumonia and still have huge amounts of drugs in my system and my brain can hardly put a paragraph together....
oh yeah.....I think I disagree with you..........even after you further explained....
and thank you for the apology.....
Mister Bent
11-18-2009, 07:59 PM
<snip>
I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.
When I first read this post, I wanted to rep you, BullDog, for drawing attention to the importance for all masculine peoples (I'm sticking with the general here) to examine masculinity and how we wear/utilize it. I have spent a number of years consciously examining my masculinity in an effort to better understand the creature that I am, and so that I might more fluidly navigate a world that does not understand me without feeling perpetually ill at ease and misunderstood.
Then I got to this last paragraph. To put it bluntly, I felt a door closing. The door not solely to this thread, but to this site. Now, I know you weren't addressing me in particular and that I should know better than to take your statements personally. But I did. Your statement felt exclusionary. Your statement said, “In this female queer space, you are a tolerated outsider.” (There is a fundamental fallacy in the term “female queer space” in that this is not identified as “female queer space,” but I think that’s already been addressed.) What it feels like is that we (male identified) should have to justify our presence here. I resent feeling like I need to reveal parts of my history in order to be validated; like I should pull down my pants and show you my bits so we can see how “alike” we all are. I struggle constantly with trying to reconcile my life – my history, accomplishments, journies – with where I am today. I believed this was one place – and this is relevant to the thread title – where butches would understand; where I could be accepted as just butch.
What a lot of this feels like to me - this unwarranted saddling of male-id’ed butches with male privilege – is to place us in the position of oppressor.
Really?
Not so much. Because while I don’t disagree that there are circumstances in which female identified butches might feel invisible or have to fight to be seen as who they are, maybe we need to examine who is responsible for that, because, to quote Johnny Cash, it ain’t me, babe.
See, I just see butch. I don’t subscribe to hierarchal thinking, it’s rubbish, and anyone who does subscribe to it needs some serious educating. Not lines drawn, not us/them speak, not victim/oppressor posturing.
Last night, I wanted to ask to whom you addressed the following, “You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are.” Personally, I’m hoping you are fair minded enough to recognize that is a statement that applies equally to butches of all flavors, it is hardly unique to male-id’ed butches.
And then I thought, well, here goes another "butch (inclusive) thread turning into a gender identity war." That hadn't happened here yet. Now, I'm not blaming you for that simply because you were the first person to feel it necessary to draw some sort of line distinguishing "types" of butch. I suppose those of us who take issue with your post could simply have remained silent; just taken our invisibility and sat there quietly with it.
<snip> Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities.
This feels incredibly dismissive to me:
"It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large..."
It's dismissive of male-identified/trans butches who have not one whiff of male privilege out in the world at large, and worse, it's dismissive of the shared experience of ALL butches. This thread, which got off to a rocky start, and may have been ill-conceived to begin with, was about what we relate to among ourselves - as butches. No modifiers necessary.
Let me just give a personal narrative here:
(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)
I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.
A good example:
When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".
When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".
Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)
So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.
After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.
My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.
Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".
The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.
This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.
With grace. With respect. With honor.
Medusa thank you, I truly appreciate what you've expressed in your post... and what you obviously heard... again much appreciation.
As a butch woman, often referenced and mistaken for male in 3d space (not to mention online), your post truly resonates for me. Butches like me really needed to see so much of what you've said acknowledged, and I can't state enough how much your words are appreciated.
I've been out for 30 years, and only online has this been an issue for me -- not because people don't refer to me as "he" in the real world, but because within my own butch-femme community I never thought I'd have to fight to be seen for who I am. I'm tired of this conversation, and yet I know it needs to take place if only to help butches who are still coming out realize that it's okay to retain a female identity without having their "butchness" questioned, scrutinized, or devalued. (If that identity is what is true for them.) And in no way does that (or should that) discount those who male-ID; it just doesn't allow that to be the default. Do I believe it's a product of internalized homophobia and/or misogyny? Yes, most likely in many cases; however, generally I believe it is more a result of habit. Habits can be broken and should be if they're detrimental. This nasty habit has erased many and created an aritificial, bullshit hierarchy that is detrimental to our cohesion as a community online.
I'm swamped with work presently and should not even be on here reading, let alone posting, but I just had to publicly express my gratitude for your ownership of your actions and your perspective on how this can be addressed.
in admiration and respect,
Beau, who'd really prefer to be "just butch"
Beau, thanks I totally hear you and get this. I had a whole post in response/concurrence but really you said it quite well already.
I don't know how deep I'll be in these particular conversations, I'm kind of getting into "just being" these days w/o having to explain it at every turn... and a bit tired too. That said I do still feel invested in these particular issues, so we'll see.
Peace,
Metro
BullDog
11-18-2009, 08:06 PM
Mister Bent I read your post and wouldn't really even know where to begin. You certainly don't appear to understand at all what I am talking about.
Best wishes to you- sincerely meant.
Mister Bent
11-18-2009, 08:13 PM
Mister Bent I read your post and wouldn't really even know where to begin. You certainly don't appear to understand at all what I am talking about.
Best wishes to you- sincerely meant.
I think I do understand what you're talking about.
I think it's unfortunate that you don't want to take ownership for the power of what you said, perhaps because you can't understand that your statements were as exclusionary as those of which you accuse others? I won't presume to understand your reasons.
You have, however, again been dismissive.
This method of non-discourse and discounting another's ability to understand is a further means by which to exclude.
PapaC
11-18-2009, 08:25 PM
I took time to watch the video today... love google video! Luckily so does my brother, so I passed along "tough guise" for his evaluation as well.
Briefly?
it's fucking powerful. A very well done documentary, and hats off to the maker of it. I posted it on facebook as well. It's in my mind, a "must see" for all genders, even if the focus is on cisgendered boys and men.
If I was a cocky sob (which I'm not - honest!) I'd make every single questioning, pre-everything trans-masculine identified person watch that video and fuckin' learn something.
Peace!
-PapaC
Just to be clear:
This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.
I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.
One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.
Just a general reminder to word our posts carefully that this place retains a welcoming feel to everyone.
BullDog
11-18-2009, 08:52 PM
I took time to watch the video today... love google video! Luckily so does my brother, so I passed along "tough guise" for his evaluation as well.
Briefly?
it's fucking powerful. A very well done documentary, and hats off to the maker of it. I posted it on facebook as well. It's in my mind, a "must see" for all genders, even if the focus is on cisgendered boys and men.
If I was a cocky sob (which I'm not - honest!) I'd make every single questioning, pre-everything trans-masculine identified person watch that video and fuckin' learn something.
Peace!
-PapaC
Yep, it's very powerful. I am going to try to watch it again tomorrow.
I took time to watch the video today... love google video! Luckily so does my brother, so I passed along "tough guise" for his evaluation as well.
Briefly?
it's fucking powerful. A very well done documentary, and hats off to the maker of it. I posted it on facebook as well. It's in my mind, a "must see" for all genders, even if the focus is on cisgendered boys and men.
If I was a cocky sob (which I'm not - honest!) I'd make every single questioning, pre-everything trans-masculine identified person watch that video and fuckin' learn something.
Peace!
-PapaC
Kinda wish all mothers would make their sons watch it... Just like I wish all teenage boys had to read All's Quiet on the Western Front"
Tommi
11-18-2009, 09:10 PM
Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick :cowboy:
and to Metro, who likes what he sees..:lips:
So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.
1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?
2. To whom, yourself included?
I was called a butch in junior high school, I didn't acknowledge it in myself until I was in my early 30's. After I had left an abusive marriage(yes to a bio-male) of 11years.
I still wasn't fully comfortable with being quite as male ID as I am even after my Two-Spirit vision, as I have been since my girl came into my life. She is the one who has brought out the male that I was hiding for so many years.
Yes, Gryph girl's will do that to you. :moonstars:
When I was in grade school , my dad would tease me and tell my friends I was queer... One day my uncle said..."Tommi is butch, get used to it". So, at 13 I told my 14 year old girlfriend I was Butch. She smiled and said, oh, good your not queer...and , it has been fun ever since..:happyjump:
sharkchomp
11-19-2009, 12:57 AM
However, I believe that male identified people have a responsibility to recognize that their presence does make an impact and it absolutely has to do with how male is valued over female- in society and in queer communities. The fact that transmen have their own struggles does not lessen this fact. I believe transphobia stems from misogyny as well.
Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?
I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.
Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.
I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.
If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine - how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?
And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.
Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.
Sincerely
Shark
atomiczombie
11-19-2009, 04:25 AM
I am not a carrier of male privilege, but I'd love to hear from others if they feel it is somethings butches/trans people incur.
The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed. I have never even been considered for a prestigious job. I have only worked at places where I was at the bottom wrung of the ladder.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. More like in spite of my sex and gender appearing to not fit together, by cis/het standards. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/10/10/some-evidence-of-discrimination-wage-gap-series-part-9/)).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex. It's because my sex and gender don't correspond.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities. Hah, that's funny.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. Actually, I have been mocked and whispered about, made fun of no matter which bathroom I used, etc. by my coworkers. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/male-privilege-checklist-harassment-car-sales-housecleaning-and-weight/)).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job. NOT. I was expected to fail, and when I didn't do everything perfectly the first time, I was mocked for not being "tough" enough.
7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. I HAVE been raped. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/men-are-much-less-likely-to-be-victims-of-rape/)).
8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are. I have been followed home by a group of teenage boys laughing and making rude comments to me.
9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question. No, but I am not given my due as my daughter's parent because my ex-wife gave birth to her, not me.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question. Not sure, my ex-wife has only allowed me to have a peripheral role in Jessica's life after we split up.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. Again, never had this chance. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/07/male-privilege-checklist-a-couple-of-childhood-issues/)).
12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home. Never had that one thrown at me. But I was expected to work, that is true.
13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press. Come on, I would never get elected to shit.
14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true. Haha, I have zero representatives who are butch or trans.
15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be. I am not cisgendered, so that would be a NO.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. I had a big brother who was allowed to do EVERYTHING and I wasn't allowed to have the toys I wanted or play the sports or go with Dad on fishing trips or any of that shit. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/07/male-privilege-checklist-a-couple-of-childhood-issues/)).
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default. Hah, no butches/transpeople like me in any media, ever.
18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. Not even close. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/11/16/gender-bias-in-the-classroom-do-teachers-give-boys-more-attention/)).
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones. I am always wondering if I didn't get this job or that opportunity because of my trans status.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception. That would be something, wouldn't it?
21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex. By whom? *shrug*
22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex. *shrug*
23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial. I just get stared at in public, and if I look at someone who is staring, they look away quickly cause they don't want to get caught doing it.
24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” This is true, no one has ever called me a slut. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/08/15/male-privilege-checklist-the-slut-phenomenon/)).
25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. HAH. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/01/male-privilege-checklist-clothing-related-issues/)).
26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. My clothing fits like shit cause I'm short and pudgy. It is cheap though. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/01/male-privilege-checklist-clothing-related-issues/)).
27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. True. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/01/male-privilege-checklist-clothing-related-issues/)).
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. Nope. A cis gendered woman will probably get better treatment than me. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/male-privilege-checklist-harassment-car-sales-housecleaning-and-weight/)).
29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore. There's a lot about the way I look that isn't conventional, and I am treated differently for it.
30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch. True.
31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.) Crimes like having my car vandalized by a bunch of bigots, I don't even report because I know nothing will be done.
32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he. But those terms aren't considered to apply to me by the straight/cisgendered world.
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is. No, I have gotten that shit that too, even after my hysto, some people assume.
34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name. I did change my name from my birth name to "Drew". I take crap for having a male name though.
35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon. No, just on whether the customers might be frightened by me.
36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male. And yet, Christian conservatives continue to tell me that I am going to hell.
37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me. Well, really I am supposed to be married to a man and have HIS children, according to most major religions.
38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. True, I don't cook, but I do a lot of things around the house. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/male-privilege-checklist-harassment-car-sales-housecleaning-and-weight/)).
39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing. When I was married, I was a full 50% parent.
40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers. I would never assume that. I love kids and spending time with them.
41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer. True, sort of. But I am not interested in straight women. I am only interested in Femmes. That's a whole different breed.
42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. I was called fat over and over as a kid, and my ex-wife used to call me that too. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/30/male-privilege-checklist-harassment-car-sales-housecleaning-and-weight/)). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. Perhaps that is true since I started to wear my masculinity and got divorced. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/08/01/why-dont-studies-find-discrimination-against-fat-men/)).
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. I have never been beaten up by a partner, but my older brother beat me senseless for years when I was a kid. (More (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/06/09/how-commonly-are-men-beaten-up-by-intimate-partners/)).
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” That is true. They tend to stare at me though. (More: 1 (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/10/07/smile-damn-you-smile/) 2 (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/10/01/miss-manners-and-smiling/)).
45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men. Maybe.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
My answers are in blue. So, what do you folks think, do I have male privilege as someone who is female bodied, but male identified?
Tommi
11-19-2009, 06:50 AM
Kinda wish all mothers would make their sons watch it... Just like I wish all teenage boys had to read All's Quiet on the Western Front"
Can someone repost the link:confused:
I heard that it's going to be required reading before you get your high school diploma.
How misleading Thread Titles can be:
...only another Butch would understand. Pleeeaseeeeee :argue: I don't understand this turmoil. Reminds me of the TV shows where the gangs separate off while behind bars and condemn one another for being different.
We are a mere dot on the spectrum of this diversity rainbow.
AND TO THOSE POSTERS ABOVE , whether you know, accept me or not... It makes me heartsick to see us act like my Bio family did when they threw me away, and how society talked and tried to stomp out my light for 40 years.
I have fought to live as ME since I was 2 and a half. I do mean fought to live. I am one of the earlier Butch warriors here on this planet. Some of you know my life story, have met my bio famliy, and know the miracles of me still being alive, and being loved or rejected, I became ME, and don't need approval ratings.
I do know we should live, let live and appreciate every day, that we have the freedom to be here and to post to one another. Maybe, only when that freedom has been taken away, as mine had been, can we really understand, and extend the hand of friendship and acceptance to all.
Thanks for the respectful post shark, and to those who discovered the peaceful place called the Planet. I think I'm taking my toys and looking for another playground for now.
Tommi
BullDog
11-19-2009, 07:38 AM
Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?
I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.
Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.
I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.
If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine - how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?
And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.
Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.
Sincerely
Shark
It's not my fault that I'm white, but I certainly have a responsibility to be aware of how my presence as a white person impacts the people around me.
I am butch. Masculine is much more valued than feminine- both in society and in butch femme circles. I didn't ask it to be that way, but I still feel it's my responsibility to be aware of that, to speak up, and to be a strong ally to femmes. Not only because I love femmes but also because of this inequity that exists. I have an extra responsibility because of it. I don't go around crying it's not my fault. I have done my best over the years and will continue to do so.
It mystifies me that male identified people are saying they don't have a responsibility to be aware of their surroundings and how being male identified can impact others, particularly when they are in a community of primarily female people. I am absolutely mystified. Taking personal responsibility and being aware of how your presence and participation in a community may impact others- it certainly appears to be a dying and lost art.
Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?
I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.
Between "her and me" are the keywords here, I hope you can differentiate that and not "feel like you have to walk a tight rope around female identified butches". Painting ALL of a group with the words of one person just doesn't work for me, but pretty much gives the in to respond to that
Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.
I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.
If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine- how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?
I'm just going to briefly address this equating or switching out of the words "male" with masculine and "female" with feminine mid thought. Male does not mean more masculine and doesn't in any way is a guarantee of a more masculine essence/energy/presentation etc. than a female ID may carry (or vice versa for that matter the maleID that may carry feminine energy). It's all pretty relative... but we all have a responsibility to not perpetuate these type of concrete stereotyping of different types of butch IDs.
And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.
Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.
Sincerely
Shark
I know you asked to keep this between her and you, but when you make generalizations about various IDs you pretty much invite all comers. I'm not really interested in debate on this but really more attempting to prevent leaving these types things out there unchallenged as if they have validity.
;)
Metro
The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed. I have never even been considered for a prestigious job. I have only worked at places where I was at the bottom wrung of the ladder.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. More like in spite of my sex and gender appearing to not fit together, by cis/het standards. (More).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex. It's because my sex and gender don't correspond.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities. Hah, that's funny.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. Actually, I have been mocked and whispered about, made fun of no matter which bathroom I used, etc. by my coworkers. (More).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job. NOT. I was expected to fail, and when I didn't do everything perfectly the first time, I was mocked for not being "tough" enough.
7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. I HAVE been raped. (More).
8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are. I have been followed home by a group of teenage boys laughing and making rude comments to me.
9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question. No, but I am not given my due as my daughter's parent because my ex-wife gave birth to her, not me.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question. Not sure, my ex-wife has only allowed me to have a peripheral role in Jessica's life after we split up.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. Again, never had this chance. (More).
12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home. Never had that one thrown at me. But I was expected to work, that is true.
13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press. Come on, I would never get elected to shit.
14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true. Haha, I have zero representatives who are butch or trans.
15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be. I am not cisgendered, so that would be a NO.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. I had a big brother who was allowed to do EVERYTHING and I wasn't allowed to have the toys I wanted or play the sports or go with Dad on fishing trips or any of that shit. (More).
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default. Hah, no butches/transpeople like me in any media, ever.
18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. Not even close. (More).
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones. I am always wondering if I didn't get this job or that opportunity because of my trans status.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception. That would be something, wouldn't it?
21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex. By whom? *shrug*
22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex. *shrug*
23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial. I just get stared at in public, and if I look at someone who is staring, they look away quickly cause they don't want to get caught doing it.
24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” This is true, no one has ever called me a slut. (More).
25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. HAH. (More).
26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. My clothing fits like shit cause I'm short and pudgy. It is cheap though. (More).
27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. True. (More).
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. Nope. A cis gendered woman will probably get better treatment than me. (More).
29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore. There's a lot about the way I look that isn't conventional, and I am treated differently for it.
30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch. True.
31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.) Crimes like having my car vandalized by a bunch of bigots, I don't even report because I know nothing will be done.
32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he. But those terms aren't considered to apply to me by the straight/cisgendered world.
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is. No, I have gotten that shit that too, even after my hysto, some people assume.
34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name. I did change my name from my birth name to "Drew". I take crap for having a male name though.
35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon. No, just on whether the customers might be frightened by me.
36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male. And yet, Christian conservatives continue to tell me that I am going to hell.
37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me. Well, really I am supposed to be married to a man and have HIS children, according to most major religions.
38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. True, I don't cook, but I do a lot of things around the house. (More).
39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing. When I was married, I was a full 50% parent.
40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers. I would never assume that. I love kids and spending time with them.
41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer. True, sort of. But I am not interested in straight women. I am only interested in Femmes. That's a whole different breed.
42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. I was called fat over and over as a kid, and my ex-wife used to call me that too. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. Perhaps that is true since I started to wear my masculinity and got divorced. (More).
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. I have never been beaten up by a partner, but my older brother beat me senseless for years when I was a kid. (More).
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” That is true. They tend to stare at me though. (More: 1 2).
45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men. Maybe.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
My answers are in blue. So, what do you folks think, do I have male privilege as someone who is female bodied, but male identified?
Interesting... I did answer "true" to many of the same questions atomiczombie and actually a few more of the questions on that list, and (though I'm not male ID) I'm apparently receiving fair amount of male priviledge (seemingly on appearance R/L).
ETA: I think male priviledge is a very fickle thing when it comes to butches, and we all should take a look before just absolving ourselves of the need to check it based on other injustices we may receive as butches.
Can someone repost the link:confused:
I heard that it's going to be required reading before you get your high school diploma.
How misleading Thread Titles can be:
...only another Butch would understand. Pleeeaseeeeee :argue: I don't understand this turmoil. Reminds me of the TV shows where the gangs separate off while behind bars and condemn one another for being different.
We are a mere dot on the spectrum of this diversity rainbow.
AND TO THOSE POSTERS ABOVE , whether you know, accept me or not... It makes me heartsick to see us act like my Bio family did when they threw me away, and how society talked and tried to stomp out my light for 40 years.
I have fought to live as ME since I was 2 and a half. I do mean fought to live. I am one of the earlier Butch warriors here on this planet. Some of you know my life story, have met my bio famliy, and know the miracles of me still being alive, and being loved or rejected, I became ME, and don't need approval ratings.
I do know we should live, let live and appreciate every day, that we have the freedom to be here and to post to one another. Maybe, only when that freedom has been taken away, as mine had been, can we really understand, and extend the hand of friendship and acceptance to all.
Thanks for the respectful post shark, and to those who discovered the peaceful place called the Planet. I think I'm taking my toys and looking for another playground for now.
Tommi Here you go Tommi <video> (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9632437500432634#)
When I saw the video discussed here , I forgot it had been posted on a different thread. "Tough Guise" is the thread title.
Fellow butches ( and femme allies participating) ... while this is a interesting discussion, it feels altogether too much like a debate going on on b-f.com regarding racism and white privilege. Do we each need to become responsible and "aware" of how our actions effect those around us? YES. Do we need to pointedly make others feel at fault for a phenomenon that may or may not specifically be their fault? I don't see the gain in that line of thinking.
The Golden rule, as simple as it may be, seems to work best in all of these situations. Sometimes the simplest answer is the best. Mind you, this is not to "silence" the very thoughtful discourse that is transpiring, simply one butches thought. Guess we don't "all understand" a great deal.
sharkchomp
11-19-2009, 10:23 AM
Thank you Bulldog for your responce. :)
~~~shark~~~~~~
BullDog
11-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Thank you Bulldog for your responce. :)
~~~shark~~~~~~
You are very welcome. Hopefully with time we will understand each other better. Have a great rest of the day.
TROOPER
11-19-2009, 10:58 AM
The best thing in the whole wide world is a Femme who does understand. :love1:
BRAVO~~ Thanking the Heavens Above!!
sharkchomp
11-19-2009, 11:08 AM
You are very welcome. Hopefully with time we will understand each other better. Have a great rest of the day.
That is my hope too. Have a great day too
~~~shark~~~~~~~~~
To start I'll make clear I am definitely and unabashedly a female, a queer and butch, and expect to be respected in all that, and desire to reflect the same respect to others in their identities. I'm not female "identified" per say, to clarify... I just am what I am, what I've always been and no longer see the reasoning behind announcing I'm a female every time I say I'm butch. I am a butch that's readily apparent and my point here... that is my reason in being here, to meet w/ like minds and experience despite minor id differences.
Bottom line for me here is that... and beyond that I'm neither impressed, repulsed or even remotely interested with what sex one is or how we choose to identify (except as I said in regards to respecting). Honestly, really I personally (me) don't feel "erased" because no one here has any power to do that to me... none. But I have felt disrespected directly and insidious ways (in the default pronouns/second besting of female masculinity/ etc.), I have seen the perpetuation and promotion of clearly negative messages about being female (not saying any group is solely responsible) and it does not just affect the female identified butches but every female here including femmes, transwomen etc. etc.
I never get it, it's not a secret: butchness- masculinity- femininity what ever doesn't hinge on how we choose to label ourselves. There's just not a lot of rhyme or reason, so why stomp on each others toes by perpetuating stereotypes of the butch ids? The more we get over this posturing the better off we'll be, and the better off the community will be.
I don't know, I think that's all I got for now, as I said previously, I don't know how deep I'll be into these particular conversations, I'm tired and really enjoying "just being" but I wanted to get this off my chest. I hope we can be a gentler, kinder community where no one will have to feel like just walking away. I do believe we can achieve something like that if we desire to.
Metro
(stereotyping/disrespect of id happens to male id too and I'm not negating that but speaking to my experience and me place)
Queerasfck
11-19-2009, 11:15 AM
Speaking only for myself, I understand the need and importance to have a place for butches to gather and/or feel welcomed. It's a well meaning sentiment to say "only a butch would understand". As demonstrated here clearly, not all butches understand butches, not all butches are the same. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If I want to, I can reduce myself to a cultural stereotype. See EZ fix the kitchen sink! See EZ sport a tie! See EZ watch football! Do I love those things? Yes, I do--even fixing the sink. Many times though I feel like there's a lot of butch posturing that goes on and it bores me, yet I've been guilty of it too on occasion.
Yes, I'm butch, yes I'm queer. It is 45 years in the making. My id is layer upon layer. It's been extraordinary and ordinary. Growing up like many people here I never felt like I fit in all the way, knew I was different from my peers. There was no one like "me". When I realized I was queer I joined the queer community and I made the simple assumption that everyone in it was a fantastic person!! Of couse I know now that it's not that way. And it's fine. So, reading this thread yesterday did bring up the issue of "fitting in" to me. So I was left with the question again, do I HAVE to fit in here? Pick a pronoun, pick a side!
I'm female on my driver's license. I don't see that changing in my future. Yet I have never felt so masculine in all my years as I do today. The pronoun thing? Yes I understand how it can be frustrating for some. If I get "sir'd" in public does that make me more masculine? If I get "mam'd" does that make me more feminine? It doesn't take away from my id. Inside I know. I'm me. My partner, she gets me. My closest friends know me. I'm comfortable in my own skin. I'm not saying any of this makes me better than the next butch. It's just how I view the world.
In the best case senario I would just like to be respected as a person and I try to do the same to others. At the end of the day that's what's important to me. I think most people feel that way.
Toughy
11-19-2009, 12:33 PM
This may get to rambling so bear with me. I am going to try to address several posts and ideas without quoting the posts.
Many of you know I am a butch woman...that would be 2 genders and female pronouns. Yes I claim more than one gender. And to make things even more complicated, I also have a part of me......the powered up kinky leather Top/Dom......that is male identified and you best call me Syr. That would be 3 different genders occupying the same body, mind and soul. Each express different facets of who I am and how I move in the world.
Because I pass on a daily basis as a man, I understand what white male privilege looks and feels like. I know the difference in how folks relate to me depending on whether they see me as woman or man. I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, however.........I got it and I have to deal with it
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask male id'd and transmen to look at their role in how masculinity is valued over femininity in on-line butch-femme communities. There are 3 b/f websites (US) that I know about. On 2 of them, male pronouns are the default for all that are butch. The jury is out on this website, although I do read the intention that this site will be different.
If a butch decides they are male id'd or an individual decides they are a transman, then you have to take the hard with the easy. If you walk in the world as male/man then you are obligated to address (white) male privilege particularly in on-line space.
Misogyny is played out everyday. It's seen in male pronouns, in fun and fluff stuff that changes man to butch and woman to femme. It is institutionalized in the fabric of our cultures (on-line and r/t).
Men take up huge amounts of space. They are listened to first, they talk more, they talk over women, they discount women and they perpetuate violence against women. JUst watch the Tough Guise video and you will get an idea of what I mean.
It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way. Over the years as gender identity came into the culture, this female space has (thankfully) expanded to be inclusive of the varying gender identities that compromise what is now a female queer space.
When I first came on line I was absolutely shocked and dumbfounded to be called he/hy just because I was butch. Only the masculine part of me seen and the woman part of me discounted and/or ignored. I actually came very close to not participating in on-line b/f space.
Male id'd and transmen do change the dynamic of any space they occupy. It's a fact. Men and women act differently. Men and women think differently. Men and women are different. Testosterone changes the way you think and act.
I don't understand why it is unreasonable to suggest that male id'd and transmen step up to the plate and acknowledge their privilege and how it affects interactions. I don't understand why it is unreasonable to expect they will be vocal about dismantling (white) male privilege in all spaces and particularly b/f space.
I think that's all I got right now.
BullDog
11-19-2009, 01:30 PM
Thank you so much Toughy. This is exactly what I have been saying. Nothing I have been saying has anything to do with having anyone be unwelcome, feel bad about themselves or hate them. Maybe someone else saying this will help. I sure do hope so. This is an extremely important issue and has absolutely nothing to do with bashing anyone's individual or collective id. I am really troubled that many people do not appear to understand what we are talking about. Hopefully your post will help to clear some things up. Thank you again.
Greyson
11-19-2009, 03:59 PM
Misogyny is played out everyday. It's seen in male pronouns, in fun and fluff stuff that changes man to butch and woman to femme. It is institutionalized in the fabric of our cultures (on-line and r/t).
Men take up huge amounts of space. They are listened to first, they talk more, they talk over women, they discount women and they perpetuate violence against women. JUst watch the Tough Guise video and you will get an idea of what I mean.
It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way. Over the years as gender identity came into the culture, this female space has (thankfully) expanded to be inclusive of the varying gender identities that compromise what is now a female queer space.
When I first came on line I was absolutely shocked and dumbfounded to be called he/hy just because I was butch. Only the masculine part of me seen and the woman part of me discounted and/or ignored. I actually came very close to not participating in on-line b/f space.
Male id'd and transmen do change the dynamic of any space they occupy. It's a fact. Men and women act differently. Men and women think differently. Men and women are different. Testosterone changes the way you think and act.
I don't understand why it is unreasonable to suggest that male id'd and transmen step up to the plate and acknowledge their privilege and how it affects interactions. I don't understand why it is unreasonable to expect they will be vocal about dismantling (white) male privilege in all spaces and particularly b/f space.
I think that's all I got right now.
Toughy, Bulldog, Sharkchomp, Jess, Atomic, Met... all of you really thank you for your sharing your thoughts. I think this is an important topic to discuss. I am very heartened that our community is trying to talk about things that may be difficult to talk about for many.
Toughy, when you say butch-femme is primarily a female space; it started that way.... Do you mean that butches and femmes started with female bodies or is there more to it? You and I are in the same age group and I think we both have identified as butches for all of our adult lives. When we came out, I think in different parts of the USA, The Second Wave of Feminism was the self and media designated leaders of gay womens culture. The term "lesbian" was just beginning to be used in a positive fashion. Many many gay women had trouble acclimating to the word "lesbian."
We did not have a very large consciousness about Trans stuff. To be Trans was not an option for most. How would many of us know we were shades of a third gender or gender that is not static? We did not. I found myself in the camp of Butch-Femme. We were discarded and marginalized by the general population of Lesbians. I know you know this stuff. My point is I believe that many in the generation before us or the generation when we were baby butches, there was no room for female masculinity nor a gender outside of the binary. If you mean the butch-femme community started with people that were born into a biological/cisgender female body, I agree. If you mean female was the primary gender, I agee but I also think if we had more options at that point in time, "female space" would not have necessarily been the default.
Yes, misogyny is in the very fabric of our culture. Like you and Bully I do believe we have a responsibility to examine our masculinity. All of us of the butch bent have that responsibility. Not just Transmen and/or male identified. The larger culture is still assigning masculinity to "men." I think most of us in here know masculinity is not purely a male characteristic.
As for T changing the way we think and act, for me the jury is still out. I take T. I am much more vigilant about how I treat women, femmes. I have not turned into an angry, abusive, sexed crazed "man."
Before I started to take T, it was found I had high levels of testosterone for a female bodied person. I am willing to bet we have female identified butches in our community with higher then "normal" amounts of testosterone in their body. Are they thinking and acting differently?
I'm not trying to pick on you Toughy. I have read many of your posts because although I may not agree with you sometimes, I respect your mind, your intelligence.
As for the White Male Privilege, it does exist. I am not trying to fault anyone. I think Bulldog is just saying we need to start admitting to ourselves that male privilege does exist, and how will we begin to break it down in our community and assist in erradicating old and ignorant ideas and behavior starting with ourselves.
I think if we take a closer look we will find that most butches have been on the receiving end of some male privilege. And, we have also known discrimination because we did not look like the "norm" for a female bodied person.
Finally, "White Male Privilege" and "Male Privilege." I think it is a bit of a different experience for butches, Transmen that are "other." How many black or brown men do we seen in the prisons? At the head of Corporations, in lead positions?
Like Jess says, the Golden Rule is a pretty good start.
BullDog
11-19-2009, 04:14 PM
Greyson what an awesome post. Thank you so much. What you said about what I have been trying to say is absolutely correct.
I also very much agree with how all butches have experienced varying degrees of privilege and discrimination. It is also still true that male is valued over female- including in both real time and online queer communities- and that needs to be recognized by everyone before anything can change. Getting defensive or being in denial will not change anything.
I believe we all have a responsibility to be aware of our own impact in the communities we participate in and be aware of the inequities that exist. Otherwise nothing is ever going to change.
You also point to some other variety important factors in regards to history as well as differences between white male and/or masculine privilege and those for people of color.
Thanks again Greyson. Awesome post.
...I'm not saying any of this makes me better than the next butch.
What's all this up in this joint, a meeting of the Joint Mis-alliance of Differently-Gendered COMMIES?
I'm not afraid to say it. I AM better than the next butch.
Just_G
11-19-2009, 04:51 PM
I, too, was thrown off by the title of this thread....but have been reading as it goes, and here is my .02: I have met a lot of you in r/t and really enjoyed getting to know a lot of you. I do not participate in these deep discussion threads because honestly, some of the language that you all use goes right over my head. It is all a little too deep for me, and I guess I just don't think as deeply or as seriously or as intilectually as you all. Not saying there is anything wrong with that...just not my cup of tea. I am more the class clown than anything. ;)
When I am in the same room and spending time with other butches, I truly just enjoy their company. I have talked everything from sports, tools, home design, and knitting when in the company of butches. (granted, I didn't have much input on the knitting thing...but that is because I can't sit still that long. ;)) I just love being around likeminded people. People that know we are all different, yet we have some things in common too, whether it is something we have been through or whatever.
I want to apologize if I have ever offended any of you by using the wrong pronoun....reading Medusa's post really made me think about that. I am going to make a conscious effort to be better about that.
As for me; I don't get offended either way. When I am around my friends I have met through the other site, I love that I am acknowledge with masculine pronouns because that is truly how I feel on the inside, and in my head. On an every day basis in my real life...it is always she.
Anyway, carry on....I'll keep reading. :curtain:
Greyson
11-19-2009, 05:21 PM
I, too, was thrown off by the title of this thread....but have been reading as it goes, and here is my .02: I have met a lot of you in r/t and really enjoyed getting to know a lot of you. I do not participate in these deep discussion threads because honestly, some of the language that you all use goes right over my head. It is all a little too deep for me, and I guess I just don't think as deeply or as seriously or as intilectually as you all. Not saying there is anything wrong with that...just not my cup of tea. I am more the class clown than anything. ;)
When I am in the same room and spending time with other butches, I truly just enjoy their company. I have talked everything from sports, tools, home design, and knitting when in the company of butches. (granted, I didn't have much input on the knitting thing...but that is because I can't sit still that long. ;)) I just love being around likeminded people. People that know we are all different, yet we have some things in common too, whether it is something we have been through or whatever.
I want to apologize if I have ever offended any of you by using the wrong pronoun....reading Medusa's post really made me think about that. I am going to make a conscious effort to be better about that.
As for me; I don't get offended either way. When I am around my friends I have met through the other site, I love that I am acknowledge with masculine pronouns because that is truly how I feel on the inside, and in my head. On an every day basis in my real life...it is always she.
Anyway, carry on....I'll keep reading. :curtain:
G!!! I never told you but I have wanted to see you post and express your opinion on some of the "deeper" subjects for a very long time. I don't think this stuff is so intellectual. I have always appreciated your humor and community spirit but I also suspect you have opinions that are as valid as anyone elses. Now, can you teach me a little about not being sooo serious?
Toughy
11-19-2009, 07:09 PM
When I am in the same room and spending time with other butches, I truly just enjoy their company. I have talked everything from sports, tools, home design, and knitting when in the company of butches. (granted, I didn't have much input on the knitting thing...but that is because I can't sit still that long. ) I just love being around likeminded people. People that know we are all different, yet we have some things in common too, whether it is something we have been through or whatever.
The post is the epitome of what this thread speaks to: things only another butch would understand. The 'butch bonding' luncheon at the Bash when it was in Oakland was this truth in action. None of us gave a shit about pronouns (we tried to be respectful), male, female, trans, white, black, brown, red, pony, doggie or any thing else. It was an opportunity to be with like-minded butch/masculine folks and to be just yourself.
It was an amazing thing and spawned the Butch Voices Conference.
thanks for saying this G.
Mister Bent
11-19-2009, 07:09 PM
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask male id'd and transmen to look at their role in how masculinity is valued over femininity in on-line butch-femme communities.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable either. I did take exception to some very specific language that felt exclusionary to me (whether by intent or not).
I’d like to note that BullDog initially recommended Tough Guise to all masculine individuals and suggested we all examine our masculinity. In subsequent posts by others, and yours here, the directive has been mysteriously pared down to focus more on those with male identity. The issue was presented as relevant to masculinity, not exclusively male identity. Then BullDog made the leap to male privilege. Unfortunately, marrying those two points as she did in her post has served to cloud the issue. I say “unfortunately” because I think each are worthy of further examination and dialog on their own.
If we’re talking about masculinity and needing to examine it and how it plays out in online space, then there can be no exclusion from that responsibility for non-male id’ed butches, because to do so perpetuates the fallacy of a hierarchy (i.e., who has "more masculinity").
The conversation about male privilege and its relevance in this venue is one well worth having – as heated as it is likely to be.
If a butch decides they are male id'd or an individual decides they are a transman, then you have to take the hard with the easy. If you walk in the world as male/man then you are obligated to address (white) male privilege particularly in on-line space.
When discussing male privilege you cannot lump male id’ed, non-transitioned (of the non-passing variety) individuals in with those who navigate the world at large as men. I know I wouldn’t be alone in enumerating the ways in which acknowledging my male, or even masculine, nature has never made anything “easier” for me. The very notion is absurd.
When talking about male privilege, don’t lump me in that pile because I have a preference for male pronouns in the very limited applications in my life where I can experience them. Accepting the assertion that I don’t have male privilege in real time, show me the ways in which it is viewed that male identified folks experience male privilege in an online space (outside of the aforementioned default male pronoun usage, which I have not personally experience).
Bottomline? I’m not trying to sell you what the patriarchy would have you buy. But, I reviewed the checklist – male privilege? I just don’t have it. I’m not in denial, I’m real. Further, I disbelieve transfolk can be saddled with it (other than as a veil, a veneer of privilege with serious limitations and exclusions). I do believe that a lot of what's being said here, however, sounds a lot like transphobia.
Toughy, you said, “Because I pass on a daily basis as a man, I understand what white male privilege looks and feels like.” I’m going to accept that as your acknowledgement – just as you say others need to acknowledge - that you have male privilege. I applaud you for being willing to be the first to take that step forward. It’s one I, too, would have taken if I understood what it feels like to personally experience male privilege.
Respectfully, I have no desire to negate your (collective) experiences online of erasure, or of not being seen (though I do think you are very much seen and heard). I don’t want to dismiss or discredit your feelings around these issues (I have argued alongside some of you in defense of female masculinity). I simply believe that placing the responsibility for that condition on the male privilege of certain types of butches is invalid assignment.
Dylan
11-19-2009, 07:14 PM
What I said yesterday was that having male identified people in a primarily female queer space introduces power dynamics, hierarchies, privileges, etc that would not be there- in the same way- if male identified people were not there, just as white people being in a group of people is different than if it was a community that was made up of all people of color. Does that mean I think that male identified people shouldn't be here? No, it does not. Does it mean I think male identified people are to blame entirely for the hierarchies, the erasure, the misogyny that has taken place. No, I do not. We have all played a role in it.
However, I believe that male identified people have a responsibility to recognize that their presence does make an impact and it absolutely has to do with how male is valued over female- in society and in queer communities. The fact that transmen have their own struggles does not lessen this fact. I believe transphobia stems from misogyny as well.
Masculinity is valued over femininity. That means YOU too need to check your shit. This is something you constantly put on male ID'd butches and transmen. Also, this happens to femmes ALL the time from BUTCHES...PERIOD.
And here's the other thing. I was invited to this site (as many many people were)...not in SPITE of who I am, but BECAUSE of who I am. This site is NOT (as has been reiterated by the Admin time and time again) female space or lesbian space. This was made VERY clear to me before I signed up. I'm sorry if that ruins your picture perfect, "butches are women" motto, but that's the way it is...Admin's said it NUMEROUS times.
WOMEN do not OWN butch femme...PERIOD. If you don't like male ID'd butches, or if you don't like FTMs, don't talk to them. Say whatever you like in your private 'females and female pronouns only' clubhouse, but your post is offensive and exclusionary on what was presented to me as a very QUEER INclusionary space. If this space is NOT supposed to be inclusionary of the entirety of the queer community, then I will freely leave and take my business elsewhere, because I've HAD it with this type of transphobia...especially coming from gender variant folks.
It's been presented to me that this is a QUEER website meant for ALL variations thereof.
Dylan
BullDog
11-19-2009, 07:18 PM
Mister Bent I have never switched over who I recommended the Tough Guise video to. I believe it is important for everyone to watch that has a chance, and I certainly encourage all butches and other types of masculine identified people to watch it.
I never switched from saying all masculine identified people have a responsibility to examine masculinity.
Male and masculine are not the same thing. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have in addition to having many over lapping ones that we share as masculine identified people. Just like I as a white person have certain privileges and responsibilities that people of color don't have.
I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.
I am not sure where the confusion is coming from. I haven't switched anything.
BullDog
11-19-2009, 07:21 PM
Masculinity is valued over femininity. That means YOU too need to check your shit. This is something you constantly put on male ID'd butches and transmen. Also, this happens to femmes ALL the time from BUTCHES...PERIOD.
And here's the other thing. I was invited to this site (as many many people were)...not in SPITE of who I am, but BECAUSE of who I am. This site is NOT (as has been reiterated by the Admin time and time again) female space or lesbian space. This was made VERY clear to me before I signed up. I'm sorry if that ruins your picture perfect, "butches are women" motto, but that's the way it is...Admin's said it NUMEROUS times.
WOMEN do not OWN butch femme...PERIOD. If you don't like male ID'd butches, or if you don't like FTMs, don't talk to them. Say whatever you like in your private 'females and female pronouns only' clubhouse, but your post is offensive and exclusionary on what was presented to me as a very QUEER INclusionary space. If this space is NOT supposed to be inclusionary of the entirety of the queer community, then I will freely leave and take my business elsewhere, because I've HAD it with this type of transphobia...especially coming from gender variant folks.
It's been presented to me that this is a QUEER website meant for ALL variations thereof.
Dylan
Dylan stop with your hyperbole and exaggerations already. It was a tired act long ago. I have never said anything about all women or all female space.
I do check my SHIT all the time as a masculine identified person. I have also discussed this in my posts in this thread.
Just stop already.
Mister Bent
11-19-2009, 07:28 PM
Mister Bent I have never switched over who I recommended the Tough Guise video to. I believe it is important for everyone to watch that has a chance, and I certainly encourage all butches and other types of masculine identified people to watch it.
I never switched from saying all masculine identified people have a responsibility to examine masculinity.
Male and masculine are not the same thing. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have in addition to having many over lapping ones that we share as masculine identified people. Just like I as a white person have certain privileges and responsibilities that people of color don't have.
I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.
I am not sure where the confusion is coming from. I haven't switched anything.
Please indicate where I said you personally "switched" any of the above, or anything else. Thank you.
I am well aware that male and masculine are not the same thing, that's abundantly clear.
You continue to assert "Male identified people have certain privileges" without ever providing any evidence to back it up. It remains hollow and offensive as such.
Dylan
11-19-2009, 07:31 PM
A. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have
B. I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.
1. You're doing part b right here when you say part a. You've said part b in many places all over the internet
2. Not all (and in fact, most, male ID'd people...and yes, some are butches) DON'T have certain privileges you think you're missing out on. In fact, MOST face double the oppression you do, because of INTERSECTIONS of privilege. Just because a female-bodied person all the sudden ID's as male doesn't mean they're granted anymore privilege than you are. The horse shit is getting deep.
3. You said this site is "primarily female queer space"...it is NOT "primarily female". It is a space for ALL queers. Sorry again about your luck that someone finally started a site for ALL queers and gender variant folks. That means NOT 'primarily female'. It means ALL. Again, you always have your clubhouse to complain about those you don't accept or like.
4. You DID waffle on your 'who needs to watch a video on masculinity' and you DID direct it towards male ID'd butches...but when you're called out, you retract it.
Dylan
BullDog
11-19-2009, 07:34 PM
I stand corrected. You said pared down. I haven't pared down anything. I have been responding to all the missiles hurled my way. My focus has never changed.
As to evidence- not to be flippant- but how many years of evidence do you need? Have you been a part of other online butch femme communities? Do you not see how male is overwhelming valued over female? Have you not seen how butch has been equated to male? Have you not seen this?
Please indicate where I said you personally "switched" any of the above, or anything else. Thank you.
I am well aware that male and masculine are not the same thing, that's abundantly clear.
You continue to assert "Male identified people have certain privileges" without ever providing any evidence to back it up. It remains hollow and offensive as such.
Mister Bent
11-19-2009, 07:34 PM
1. You're doing part b right here when you say part a. You've said part b in many places all over the internet
2. Not all (and in fact, most, male ID'd people...and yes, some are butches) DON'T have certain privileges you think you're missing out on. In fact, MOST face double the oppression you do, because of INTERSECTIONS of privilege. Just because a female-bodied person all the sudden ID's as male doesn't mean they're granted anymore privilege than you are. The horse shit is getting deep.
3. You said this site is "primarily female queer space"...it is NOT "primarily female". It is a space for ALL queers. Sorry again about your luck that someone finally started a site for ALL queers and gender variant folks. That means NOT 'primarily female'. It means ALL. Again, you always have your clubhouse to complain about those you don't accept or like.
4. You DID waffle on your 'who needs to watch a video on masculinity' and you DID direct it towards male ID'd butches...but when you're called out, you retract it.
Dylan
Thank you.
Just_G
11-19-2009, 07:35 PM
Well, here we go. I hate all this kind of interaction...it gets so negative and just feels gross to me. THIS kind of interaction is one of the several reasons I left the other site and all of that argumentive space.
THIS is why I don't participate in these kinds of threads. I am feeling all pissy and wanting to jump on people about things they say.
Peace out kids.....I am going to go let people know what I am wearing today or if I own something, or maybe even write a Dear * letter to make my friends laugh or smile.
This is ridiculous.
BullDog
11-19-2009, 07:37 PM
G, I certainly agree. It's ludicrous.
BullDog
11-19-2009, 07:39 PM
Peace. Out. I am following G out of this hate fest.
Mister Bent
11-19-2009, 07:42 PM
I stand corrected. You said pared down. I haven't pared down anything. I have been responding to all the missiles hurled my way. My focus has never changed.
As to evidence- not to be flippant- but how many years of evidence do you need? Have you been a part of other online butch femme communities? Do you not see how male is overwhelming valued over female? Have you not seen how butch has been equated to male? Have you not seen this?
I said pared down, yep. However, it was not directed specifically at you. I can provide examples in this thread where it has been pared down, if you like.
I tried to make it clear that I respect the position you (collectively) are in, and that I am trying to hear where you are coming from. I have not stated that I don't see male valued over female, I simply haven't addressed it because I don't disagree with it. Hell, I've lived it. I get it.
I don't know how to be more clear that I take no issue with that aspect of this discourse. What I take issue with, one more time, was the content of the last paragraph of your Tough Guise post.
It was/is exclusionary.
You were/are perpetuating the hierarchy. I won't accept that there is one. I won't play to it.
I've been around.
Now I see you calling the content here "ludicrous" and a "hate fest." Here is where I will remind you that you were the one who lit the match to the fire. You made transphobic statements, and now you accuse others of being hateful.
Last time I'm going to say it, accountability, it's a beautiful thing.
Is it just me or has this EXACT thread in one way or another, always happened on every other site, with similar outcomes?....Mtn who learns from the past
Mister Bent
11-19-2009, 07:49 PM
Is it just me, or is it every time there is a thread with meaningful content, people have to be dismissive of it and complain?
Daywalker
11-19-2009, 08:03 PM
I was going to stay out of this thread since the conversation was moving a long but I do feel the need to add my few cents as a Butch person.
Id like to see the great divide brought together, Id like to see the healing begin. I know we can share space in this queer community as long as we honor and respect each other.
I have a lot of dear friends that are Male Identified and FTM and I do feel a deep sense of brotherhood with, while honoring my own Female Identity and that of many Female Identified friends.
We all have struggles to be seen, we all already know it, one persons visibility doesn't have to come at the expense of others.
Im not saying that in reference to anyone here, I'm just saying what Im feeling.
The first person ever Banned from this website is a known Troll that spews Transphobic hatred all over the internet.
We wont provide medium for hatred on any level.
I dont want anyone shaking a finger in my face telling me what I need to work on as a adult.
So lets talk to each other rather than at each other and not vilify any group of people.
Off to smoke my pipe on the front porch and watch the squirrels hide their nuts.
Sometimes yer just hawt.
:awww:
Daywalker
Smokin mah pipe right along with ya.
:cigar:
:daywalker:
Toughy
11-19-2009, 08:04 PM
Greyson you make some excellent points and for simplicities sake and to keep me from rambling to much I will use this color to respond.
Toughy, Bulldog, Sharkchomp, Jess, Atomic, Met... all of you really thank you for your sharing your thoughts. I think this is an important topic to discuss. I am very heartened that our community is trying to talk about things that may be difficult to talk about for many.
Toughy, when you say butch-femme is primarily a female space; it started that way.... Do you mean that butches and femmes started with female bodies or is there more to it? You and I are in the same age group and I think we both have identified as butches for all of our adult lives. When we came out, I think in different parts of the USA, The Second Wave of Feminism was the self and media designated leaders of gay womens culture. The term "lesbian" was just beginning to be used in a positive fashion. Many many gay women had trouble acclimating to the word "lesbian."
We did not have a very large consciousness about Trans stuff. To be Trans was not an option for most. How would many of us know we were shades of a third gender or gender that is not static? We did not. I found myself in the camp of Butch-Femme. We were discarded and marginalized by the general population of Lesbians. I know you know this stuff. My point is I believe that many in the generation before us or the generation when we were baby butches, there was no room for female masculinity nor a gender outside of the binary. If you mean the butch-femme community started with people that were born into a biological/cisgender female body, I agree. If you mean female was the primary gender, I agee but I also think if we had more options at that point in time, "female space" would not have necessarily been the default.
Yep we are the same age and have been butch since birth. I sometimes find it difficult to talk about the early 70's with the meanings of the present language. There was no conversation about gender and gender identity. It didn't exist. I really did just mean butch was female and/or woman identity at that time. And I would agree that had other options existed then, butch certainly may not have been a female/woman id.
The 'hate the wanna be manbutch' and the total rejection of femininity as in hair make-up or jewelry that was the hallmark of 2nd Wave Lesbian Feminism really had no legs in Amarillo Tx or in the Army. It was butch or femme or kiki.
Yes, misogyny is in the very fabric of our culture. Like you and Bully I do believe we have a responsibility to examine our masculinity. All of us of the butch bent have that responsibility. Not just Transmen and/or male identified. The larger culture is still assigning masculinity to "men." I think most of us in here know masculinity is not purely a male characteristic.
Yes I did leave out non-male id'd folks. I agree that all of us who are masculine (regardless of id) need to examine masculinity and it's power in our society and culture. I do think it is imperative and incumbent and a duty that those who are male/trans id'd take a really close look at it. If you walk in the world as a man you have a huge responsibility to lead the change of the paradigm about what masculine and male and man actually means. It seems to me male/trans id requires one to be in the forefront for change.
I know when I am perceived as man, I truly try to be aware of how I perform man. (And yes there are times I do nothing to suggest I am not a man.) How do I act? What do I say? How do I respond to sexism and negative comments about women?
As for T changing the way we think and act, for me the jury is still out. I take T. I am much more vigilant about how I treat women, femmes. I have not turned into an angry, abusive, sexed crazed "man."
Before I started to take T, it was found I had high levels of testosterone for a female bodied person. I am willing to bet we have female identified butches in our community with higher then "normal" amounts of testosterone in their body. Are they thinking and acting differently?
Being in the upper end of the normal range of T levels for a woman is an entirely different thing than the levels reached and maintained when one transitions and becomes hormonally male. I was not insinuating in any way that all folks who use T have 'roid rage and become evil incarnate.
I'm not trying to pick on you Toughy. I have read many of your posts because although I may not agree with you sometimes, I respect your mind, your intelligence.
As for the White Male Privilege, it does exist. I am not trying to fault anyone. I think Bulldog is just saying we need to start admitting to ourselves that male privilege does exist, and how will we begin to break it down in our community and assist in erradicating old and ignorant ideas and behavior starting with ourselves.
I think if we take a closer look we will find that most butches have been on the receiving end of some male privilege. And, we have also known discrimination because we did not look like the "norm" for a female bodied person.
Finally, "White Male Privilege" and "Male Privilege." I think it is a bit of a different experience for butches, Transmen that are "other." How many black or brown men do we seen in the prisons? At the head of Corporations, in lead positions?
Like Jess says, the Golden Rule is a pretty good start.
yes yes and yes.........agreed on your last paragraphs.
My friend, I would never think you are picking on me. I see you as thoughtful, insightful, gentle and always courteous. This is a discussion of really difficult issues and concepts, and I think we all do well when we speak from our hearts.
The "discussion," which I have read in this thread, reminded me of similar ones, which inspired this poem, written in the early 80's.
Tapestry
It is difficult to find the thread in this weaving of women,
a string labeled community with knots so obvious,
yet the adjoining fiber elusive.
Self-imposed matriarchs, seductive in their leadership,
silent sheep blind to the wolf in shepherd's clothing,
it is a comfortable existence.
Where are your voices sisters?
How long before you discover the courage to not give your power away?
A wise man once spoke of stones and blame,
no doubt a lesson learned at his mother's knee.
Yet you persist in elevating your own self-importance,
and righteously climb over the lives that you have
discussed, dissected, and discarded as unworthy.
Are you ignorant of your own mistakes?
Unwilling to admit your own shortcomings or foolishness?
Are you so perfect, that you have forgotten that life is simply a path of lessons?
There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle,
success measured only by the individual,
not the collective.
Set your houses in order sisters—
tend to your own housekeeping.
Speak of yourself, not others.
Divisions and factions evade the warp,
the thread could be pulled,
the weaving unraveled.
© 1982 K. Berryman
No longer identifying as a lesbian, or butch, secure in my masculinity, and sadly confident that there is no room in this community, for me.
Liam
Daywalker
11-19-2009, 08:18 PM
The "discussion," which I have read in this thread, reminded me of similar ones, which inspired this poem, written in the early 80's.
Tapestry
It is difficult to find the thread in this weaving of women,
a string labeled community with knots so obvious,
yet the adjoining fiber elusive.
Self-imposed matriarchs, seductive in their leadership,
silent sheep blind to the wolf in shepherd's clothing,
it is a comfortable existence.
Where are your voices sisters?
How long before you discover the courage to not give your power away?
A wise man once spoke of stones and blame,
no doubt a lesson learned at his mother's knee.
Yet you persist in elevating your own self-importance,
and righteously climb over the lives that you have
discussed, dissected, and discarded as unworthy.
Are you ignorant of your own mistakes?
Unwilling to admit your own shortcomings or foolishness?
Are you so perfect, that you have forgotten that life is simply a path of lessons?
There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle,
success measured only by the individual,
not the collective.
Set your houses in order sisters—
tend to your own housekeeping.
Speak of yourself, not others.
Divisions and factions evade the warp,
the thread could be pulled,
the weaving unraveled.
© 1982 K. Berryman
No longer identifying as a lesbian, or butch, secure in my masculinity, and sadly confident that there is no room in this community, for me.
Liam
This is a beautiful piece of writing.
However, the final sentence you have added...is tragic.
:(
And I sure as hell hope that before dismissing anyones
presence here as valid, that folks learn to inspect
their own words first and how hurtful
and divisive they really are.
:dots:
:daywalker:
Admin
11-19-2009, 08:23 PM
I want to make it crystal clear that this space is not merely inclusive of male-identified people, but that we HONOR that path.
I have been watching this conversation evolve and want to interject something here.
It looks like there is some vocalizing of fear around being marginalized as a female-identified Butch. I get that. I understand that deep desire to be seen, to be honored, to be heard, to be not just visible in a space but to have a sturdy foundation. Female-identified Butches will ALWAYS have a foundation in Butch-Femme culture, an honored and valued one!
We need to remember that male-identified people and Trans men have BEEN in our shoes. They have walked these miles and the decision to transition does NOT erase years of lived history. It doesnt mean that they have some higher status in this community because they are now transitioned or male-identified, it just means they have a different experience. A valued and honored one!
The injection of testosterone or use of male pronouns doesnt cause a physiological change in the brain where knuckle-dragging sexism takes root. Most likely that behavior would already be rooted in the person doing it. Butches do it. Femmes do it. We ALL do it sometimes.
I think that we can certainly seek ways to be seen, ways to be comfortable. I think it is perfectly ok to say to a person, "Hey, can you please be mindful of how your presence here affects my own presence here"
And that goes in both directions! We ALL affect each other. Nobody here exists in a bubble - and who would want to?
This is a gentle reminder to all that this conversation is fucking important and that we might feel like throwing up our hands and giving up but that maybe our frustration is a call to stay the course.
We need to ALL be mindful to use language that is respectful and honoring of this space for which is was intended. This is YOUR home, so dont go putting up any ugly decorations.
Love to us all.
evolveme
11-19-2009, 08:37 PM
"There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle..."
I'm always disappointed, but rarely surprised, when adults have a difficult time stomaching the hard conversations. For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.
I don't see dissent as a displeasure, so much as the necessary sacrifice of a consciousness working it out. I am never afraid to disagree. But then, I try to never take matters of disagreement personally. When I do, I try to own it and move forward.
I will never believe that all the Kumbaya business in the world can bring us a sense of community. That makes for false mortar. I believe community is better built in being civil, but forthright. I believe in Doing The Work.
And sometimes that means we will be heated. We will staunchly disagree. But we will, if we are wise, understand what brought us together in the first place. We have a commonality more significant than any of our differences. It is this that has laid the foundation for any of our community building efforts. It is this that made a place for us here.
BullDog
11-19-2009, 08:49 PM
People appear to be seriously confused about what I have said.
I have never said that butch femme space was all woman or female space nor have I advocated it.
I have never said male identified people should not be welcome and I too have close male id butch and trans friends, and consider male id people as part of my community as well.
I have never been afraid of being marginalized- as a female identified butch or anything else.
I have never been afraid to speak up about things that I felt were important and I am not going to stop speaking up wherever I happen to participate.
Misogyny doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon. EVERYONE is responsible for unmasking, uprooting and getting rid of it. If discussions about misogyny are not welcome here just let me know. I have never blamed male identified people for all misogyny, and I am thoroughly sick and tired of my words being characterized that way.
Peace to All.
P.S. Evolveme, I agree with you- Kumbabya is not the answer. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be respectful of one another and wish for us all to get along peacefully, but the tough conversations need to be had in order to get anywhere.
I am severely frustrated because I have no idea why people are not understanding what I write. I am a professional writer- I fucking get paid for it. I write thousands of words every day and people understand what I write. Otherwise I wouldn't get paid for it. Actually Toughy and Greyson seemed to understand just fine.
Sorry if this is overly personal. I am severely frustrated.
Daywalker
11-19-2009, 09:13 PM
"There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle..."
I'm always disappointed, but rarely surprised, when adults have a difficult time stomaching the hard conversations. For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.
I don't see dissent as a displeasure, so much as the necessary sacrifice of a consciousness working it out. I am never afraid to disagree. But then, I try to never take matters of disagreement personally. When I do, I try to own it and move forward.
I will never believe that all the Kumbaya business in the world can bring us a sense of community. That makes for false mortar. I believe community is better built in being civil, but forthright. I believe in Doing The Work.
And sometimes that means we will be heated. We will staunchly disagree. But we will, if we are wise, understand what brought us together in the first place. We have a commonality more significant than any of our differences. It is this that has laid the foundation for any of our community building efforts. It is this that made a place for us here.
I believe in the theory that the hard stuff must be brought forth in order to
gain a better perspective n what have you. I read a lot. I may not jump
in to some conversations, because frankly some of them get over wrought
with bullshit back n forths that are more personal; than those that are
actually addressing the main Topic at hand. I am also one who tends
to care about the words that I use, and how all folks might interpret them.
And I never post my words as if I am right and everyone else who doesn't
agree just 'doesn't get it...so they are wrong'. I will not speak from a clouded
point of frustration, because when I read folks who do just that thing...I cannot
get past their disposition far enough to decipher what it is they are really
trying to say. Heated discussions are great, so long as the Topic does not
get clouded over in a circus of demeanor's that resemble hecklers with no
meaning, only destructive motives and divisiveness. There really is a way
to discuss the Hard Stuff without being fucked up to one side of the
conversationalists, and only defending those who agree with me.
To Me
Addressing anything Butch Femme related, includes the Voices of Past,
Present AND Future Butches of our Community. No one should feel left
out of a conversation (or the target of) over such things as pronouns,
which is just a preference as to how we have chosen to be addressed
within the Community. And yes, our commonalities are indeed more
significant than our differences.
:daywalker:
bonne-maman
11-19-2009, 09:16 PM
Misogyny doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon. EVERYONE is responsible for unmasking, uprooting and getting rid of it. If discussions about misogyny are not welcome here just let me know. I have never blamed male identified people for all misogyny, and I am thoroughly sick and tired of my words being characterized that way.
We are all responsible, all the time, for working on our own internalized isms. Misogyny, racism, classism, agism, disabism, all of it, is embedded in all of us. How deeply the various isms are held in us, and how we must approach unlearning them, is impacted by who we are. Are we male-identified, female-identified, male, female, white, African-American, old, young, able, otherly-abled? Whatever combination is me, impacts how I approach the isms within me that I must unlearn. I hear in this thread the voices of those who are masculine people who have strong values, strong ethics, strong morals. I read these voices on a day I have spent as a female adult person trying mightily to help a female young person hold on to a bare thread of sanity. Sanity that has been ripped from her by male people who have beaten, raped, and abused her, and female people who have neglected to protect her. This is the far extreme of the misogyny that is spoken of here, that we must all unlearn. We are all responsible, every day, for unlearning how privilege of various sorts allows us to walk the world safer than others, in order to make the world safer for others.
BullDog
11-19-2009, 09:21 PM
We are all responsible, all the time, for working on our own internalized isms. Misogyny, racism, classism, agism, disabism, all of it, is embedded in all of us. How deeply the various isms are held in us, and how we must approach unlearning them, is impacted by who we are. Are we male-identified, female-identified, male, female, white, African-American, old, young, able, otherly-abled? Whatever combination is me, impacts how I approach the isms within me that I must unlearn. I hear in this thread the voices of those who are masculine people who have strong values, strong ethics, strong morals. I read these voices on a day I have spent as a female adult person trying mightily to help a female young person hold on to a bare thread of sanity. Sanity that has been ripped from her by male people who have beaten, raped, and abused her, and female people who have neglected to protect her. This is the far extreme of the misogyny that is spoken of here, that we must all unlearn. We are all responsible, every day, for unlearning how privilege of various sorts allows us to walk the world safer than others, in order to make the world safer for others.
Thank you for your post. I agree with all my heart. Peace to the young woman that you helped. And thank you for being there.
Toughy
11-19-2009, 09:28 PM
Me in this color
I don’t think it’s unreasonable either. I did take exception to some very specific language that felt exclusionary to me (whether by intent or not).
I’d like to note that BullDog initially recommended Tough Guise to all masculine individuals and suggested we all examine our masculinity. In subsequent posts by others, and yours here, the directive has been mysteriously pared down to focus more on those with male identity. The issue was presented as relevant to masculinity, not exclusively male identity. Then BullDog made the leap to male privilege. Unfortunately, marrying those two points as she did in her post has served to cloud the issue. I say “unfortunately” because I think each are worthy of further examination and dialog on their own.
Maybe the Tough Guise thread is the place for those discussions.
If we’re talking about masculinity and needing to examine it and how it plays out in online space, then there can be no exclusion from that responsibility for non-male id’ed butches, because to do so perpetuates the fallacy of a hierarchy (i.e., who has "more masculinity").
Actually I don't see it as a hierarchy. As I said earlier, I did leave out non male id'd folks. It was partially an oversight, but also pointed. I think that all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm for how men behave in general and in relation to women and to violence.
The conversation about male privilege and its relevance in this venue is one well worth having – as heated as it is likely to be.
I'm up for it.
When discussing male privilege you cannot lump male id’ed, non-transitioned (of the non-passing variety) individuals in with those who navigate the world at large as men. I know I wouldn’t be alone in enumerating the ways in which acknowledging my male, or even masculine, nature has never made anything “easier” for me. The very notion is absurd.
When talking about male privilege, don’t lump me in that pile because I have a preference for male pronouns in the very limited applications in my life where I can experience them. Accepting the assertion that I don’t have male privilege in real time, show me the ways in which it is viewed that male identified folks experience male privilege in an online space (outside of the aforementioned default male pronoun usage, which I have not personally experience).
Bottomline? I’m not trying to sell you what the patriarchy would have you buy. But, I reviewed the checklist – male privilege? I just don’t have it. I’m not in denial, I’m real. Further, I disbelieve transfolk can be saddled with it (other than as a veil, a veneer of privilege with serious limitations and exclusions). I do believe that a lot of what's being said here, however, sounds a lot like transphobia.
I would say this is a much larger conversation and this thread is probably not the thread.
Toughy, you said, “Because I pass on a daily basis as a man, I understand what white male privilege looks and feels like.” I’m going to accept that as your acknowledgement – just as you say others need to acknowledge - that you have male privilege. I applaud you for being willing to be the first to take that step forward. It’s one I, too, would have taken if I understood what it feels like to personally experience male privilege.
I generally try to avoid being a hypocrite .......<grin>. I absolutely have male privilege when I am seen as man and let me tell ya.............geez......what an eye opener it was when I figured it out.......
Respectfully, I have no desire to negate your (collective) experiences online of erasure, or of not being seen (though I do think you are very much seen and heard). I don’t want to dismiss or discredit your feelings around these issues (I have argued alongside some of you in defense of female masculinity). I simply believe that placing the responsibility for that condition on the male privilege of certain types of butches is invalid assignment.
Nor am I interested in negating anyone's individual experience. See above concerning responsibility.
julieisafemme
11-19-2009, 09:55 PM
I hope it is ok for to me post here as a femme. I am partnered with a transmasculine butch. It is painful to hear these conversations when people get so upset that they want to leave or stop talking. I can hear the frustration and understand where both Bull Dog and Dylan are coming from.
The experience of male privilege that I see my partner enjoy is very different from that of a cisgendered male. His perspective as a butch and starting life as a female bodied person informs how he receives the privilege. Cisgendered men, in my experience, do not dissect or consider these everyday interactions as privilege. I also don't experience his male privilege the same way as I did when partnered with a biomale. It's all kind of new and we talk about it a lot. So because of this experience it does upset me to hear transmen taken to task and lumped in with biomales. It's not the same to me.
We had the great good fortune this Fall to attend Butch Voices and Gender Odyssey. I was so pleased at how respectfully these difficult conversations were handled at Butch Voices. Bear Bergmann and Jeanne Cordova did a fantastic job in moderating these topics. At Gender Odyssey it was amazing to see the range of gender expression and how people choose to live that gender expression. As a partner I appreciated hearing from other partners, women and men, whose gender and sexual orientation were different than mine.
It is possible to have these conversations and have everyone feel heard. Maybe not in this medium though.
Mister Bent
11-19-2009, 10:14 PM
<snip>
Actually I don't see it as a hierarchy. As I said earlier, I did leave out non male id'd folks. It was partially an oversight, but also pointed. I think that all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm for how men behave in general and in relation to women and to violence.
Thanks for clarifying, Toughy.
Sometimes these conversations are rough stuff and we get the red ass over things others say, but it's all a process toward working it out, or, as e said:
For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.
And so I learned something in re-reading your words here, as I composed my reply.
You said (and it's been said here before a time or two)
"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..."
I think we do have a responsibility, not necessarily to unpack our own backpack full of shit, but to lead by example. I believe we can demonstrate the better aspects of man/male, tempered with all that we've learned during our own discovery of self and growth.
Maybe at some point one of us will have the energy to start that thread. I know it's not going to be me tonight!
BullDog
11-19-2009, 10:19 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Toughy.
Sometimes these conversations are rough stuff and we get the red ass over things others say, but it's all a process toward working it out, or, as e said:
For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.
And so I learned something in re-reading your words here, as I composed my reply.
You said (and it's been said here before a time or two)
"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..."
I think we do have a responsibility, not necessarily to unpack our own backpack full of shit, but to lead by example. I believe we can demonstrate the better aspects of man/male, tempered with all that we've learned during our own discovery of self and growth.
Maybe at some point one of us will have the energy to start that thread. I know it's not going to be me tonight!
Mister Bent, for what it's worth that is what I meant in the post that you objected to:
"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..." (Toughy)
I thought this was where our major bone of contention was. Perhaps not. We shall see.
I do agree with lead by example rather than the unpacking the knapsack stuff.
Mister Bent
11-19-2009, 10:30 PM
Mister Bent, for what it's worth that is what I meant in the post that you objected to:
"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..." (Toughy)
I thought this was where our major bone of contention was. Perhaps not. We shall see.
I do agree with lead by example rather than the unpacking the knapsack stuff.
No, I got that part from the git go.
But now that we're maybe making some headway with this load, let's not rehash that. I think it's well possible that if we continue on with the male privilege discussion - in it's own thread, I'm thinking - that we'll trip over it, and work our way through it there.
BullDog
11-19-2009, 10:46 PM
No, I got that part from the git go.
But now that we're maybe making some headway with this load, let's not rehash that. I think it's well possible that if we continue on with the male privilege discussion - in it's own thread, I'm thinking - that we'll trip over it, and work our way through it there.
OK that's cool. No need to rehash. I will try to re-watch the video tomorrow, see if I have any thoughts on it. I know it is long.
To be continued...
Have a good night.
girl_dee
11-19-2009, 11:05 PM
This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.
With grace. With respect. With honor.
My femme voice may also be intrusive but I feel a need to be heard here.
I love that part of your post, there IS work to be done. We are the same folks that have participated in this same subject before. My eyes gaze over when I see shots being taken at someone for basically pointing out the obvious regarding this. It's not always about being what we perceive as right.
Grace, respect and honor, three little very powerful words.
I would like to say that I AM a butch ally. I want to learn, I want to hear the struggles of what has brought the butches of my community to where they are today. I honor their journey.
I feel an undertone of anger and that silences me. I want to ask questions and HEAR people because I do care, but I struggle to get past the atmospheric anger. We should and could all be proud of who we are without anyone taking offense to that. I should not feel a need to defend who I am because someone else posts about who they are. We are all equally important. I hope this conversation continues in a good light so I can learn more..
Great things come from critical thoughts. Bad things happen when those thoughts are disrespected.
I love my butch with all my heart and personally would not care how he chooses to ID, that is his preference. It's what in the heart that counts. I do however care a great deal about his journey, every step of it. I am so proud of who he is today and respect every step he took to get here. None of those steps should be dismissed, ever.
Blue_Daddy-O
11-19-2009, 11:10 PM
It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way.
Toughy, I didn't see where you expanded on this statement anywhere and I know in some respects this has been addressed by others, but this bothers me. If this is an example of how others feel, it may explain to me why there seems to be this ongoing bucking up against this wall of Male-Identification being accepted into our BF community (as equal shared space) and on some levels even being seen as a threat by some members. Not that I'm saying in any way this is what you meant, or what your feelings are behind your statment, Toughy. But when I read your statement this is how it makes me feel.
I disagree that the BF community is first a Female space. I believe it is equally shared between all of us regardless of Male or Female Identification or Gender Fluid. I also believe that no one can say that the BF community started that way unless the very first BF relationship is documented somewhere and it is proven that the Butch was Female-Identified. The Butch very well could have been Male-Identified or Gender Fluid.
I do believe as always we all need to be respectful of each other no matter how anyone identifies and remember we are all in this together as equals in an equal space.
Toughy
11-19-2009, 11:20 PM
OK that's cool. No need to rehash. I will try to re-watch the video tomorrow, see if I have any thoughts on it. I know it is long.
To be continued...
Have a good night.
I want to honor what this thread is supposed to be about.....the stuff we as butch understand about each other.....what is our common stuff..........
How about we take this hard stuff over to the Tough Guise thread? It seems to me that's where it really belongs.
BullDog
11-19-2009, 11:23 PM
I want to honor what this thread is supposed to be about.....the stuff we as butch understand about each other.....what is our common stuff..........
How about we take this hard stuff over to the Tough Guise thread? It seems to me that's where it really belongs.
Yep agreed. I will try to see if I have any thoughts on the video tomorrow. Will post over there if anyone is interested in further participating in that discussion. I would love to hear other's thoughts. I know it is very powerful and almost hard to put things into words.
Cyclopea
11-19-2009, 11:25 PM
I understood "only another butch would understand" to mean a thread for support and bonding among butches regarding the issues and commonalities that only another butch could provide.
I did not understand it to mean "something ALL butches can understand or relate to". There is vast diversity among peeps who are butch. Age, class, education, gender, ethnicity, appearance, geography, life experience, etc. etc. I can't imagine a topic or concern that EVERY butch can understand or relate to. And why is that a bad thing?
I think a centralized thread for bonding and support that includes all types of butches does not dilute the thread's potential as a place to bond.
Someone earlier in the thread posted something about the pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed, and he sought support from other male-identified butches for that experience. Even though I am a butch woman, I enjoy reading and sharing the experiences of other types of butches, especially those seeking support, even if I DON'T understand them from my personal perspective. I can still empathize, and isn't that what butch-or any- bonding is all about?
One of the things that I get support around, and that only another butch would understand, is the experience of being a walking talking poster-child for "lesbianism" or "gay woman" among the general populace, 24/7, 365. And how that effects and impacts one's daily life, living - whether desiring to or not- as an ambassador of "gayness" among the public at large.
Now, I know full well this is something many butches go through. But NOT ALL, since butches are extremely diverse. I don't think that a topic set forth for butch bonding and support needs to be something universal among every butch that exists. We can all appreciate and learn from each other that way, and no one should be afraid to reach out for support and understanding out of fear that every single butch on the planet might not understand. And we should not hesitate to seek support for specifically butch concerns that might also be concerns of allies or those who do not id as butch. For example, hetero women who present visually as "butch", and others might also relate to the "gay billboard" experience I described above. Overlapping experiences should not prevent me seeking specific butch support as I see fit.
So I saw this thread as a positive place. If we need to start butch bonding threads specific to our particular type of butch, maybe that makes sense too, but I see nothing wrong with a centralized butch bonding thread.
And the "one star" rating makes me sad...
All the stuff around male privilege is very interesting but I'm not sure I see where peeps are asking for bonding and support around that? I don't at all discount that topic but I would like to see this thread get back to bonding and support for the things that only another butch can understand. Not criticizing! Just my preference and interpretation as to what this thread is intended to be...
It seems like many posts in this thread are specifically addressing the ways in which butches do NOT feel supported and understood by each other, and as valid as that conversation is it seems anathema to a thread created for butches to support and bond with each other. Good conversation, wrong thread.
My intentions for posting this are positive, and if someone wants to pick out a piece of something I said and point out how I could have stated it more clearly, that is fine. However if someone tries to turn my post into something ugly and negative and hateful- I will not respond.
Thank you for listening and thanks to all the butches who have posted, and allies.
Cyclopea
11-19-2009, 11:29 PM
Bulldog and Toughy- you posted as I was composing mine and stated about getting back to the bonding- If I had seen your posts it would have saved me a lot of typing! Thanks for understanding.
:gimmehug:
Toughy
11-20-2009, 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by Toughy
It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way.
Toughy, I didn't see where you expanded on this statement anywhere and I know in some respects this has been addressed by others, but this bothers me. If this is an example of how others feel, it may explain to me why there seems to be this ongoing bucking up against this wall of Male-Identification being accepted into our BF community (as equal shared space) and on some levels even being seen as a threat by some members. Not that I'm saying in any way this is what you meant, or what your feelings are behind your statment, Toughy. But when I read your statement this is how it makes me feel.
I disagree that the BF community is first a Female space. I believe it is equally shared between all of us regardless of Male or Female Identification or Gender Fluid. I also believe that no one can say that the BF community started that way unless the very first BF relationship is documented somewhere and it is proven that the Butch was Female-Identified. The Butch very well could have been Male-Identified or Gender Fluid.
I do believe as always we all need to be respectful of each other no matter how anyone identifies and remember we are all in this together as equals in an equal space.
The idea of 'first a female space' comes from about 37 years ago when I first went in a gay bar in Amarillo Tx. What I really meant was ........at the time butch was woman..........I was trying to find the words in today's meaning.
It is that historical personal perspective that drives my belief that butch is first (started out as) a female/women space. The language was about 'women's space'. Whether anyone liked it or not or even thought about it, then, butch was woman. If you had a clit and a vagina, you were a woman. It was simple for the large majority of us.
Do I believe that to be true today? No....not at all. Today the butch (and femme) conversation is about concepts that I never heard of or imagined when I was 20. If you had said 'gender identity' and 'at 57 i claim 3 genders' to me at 20, I truly would have written you (and me) off as a whacko nut job that needed to be institutionalized. (And..<grin> ... I was also a Republican) It truly is a brave new world.
My view of the world today is not what it was almost 40 years ago. My statement was simply a statement of the historical perspective of butch that I experienced in real time almost 40 years ago. Something I think should be honored. Honoring that history does not mean I do not honor what butch means today.
The idea of 'first a female space' comes from about 37 years ago when I first went in a gay bar in Amarillo Tx. What I really meant was ........at the time butch was woman..........I was trying to find the words in today's meaning.
It is that historical personal perspective that drives my belief that butch is first (started out as) a female/women space. The language was about 'women's space'. Whether anyone liked it or not or even thought about it, then, butch was woman. If you had a clit and a vagina, you were a woman. It was simple for the large majority of us.
Do I believe that to be true today? No....not at all. Today the butch (and femme) conversation is about concepts that I never heard of or imagined when I was 20. If you had said 'gender identity' and 'at 57 i claim 3 genders' to me at 20, I truly would have written you (and me) off as a whacko nut job that needed to be institutionalized. (And..<grin> ... I was also a Republican) It truly is a brave new world.
My view of the world today is not what it was almost 40 years ago. My statement was simply a statement of the historical perspective of butch that I experienced in real time almost 40 years ago. Something I think should be honored. Honoring that history does not mean I do not honor what butch means today.
Thanks for this clarification, Toughy. I appreciate this post....
atomiczombie
11-20-2009, 01:21 AM
I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned. And I am guilty of reverting to male pronouns and saying "bro" to butches without checking out their pronoun preference first. I do try to be mindful but I slip up sometimes and I am sorry. I never intend disrespect, but I understand that is what is sometimes the outcome. Please call me on it folks, cause it greatly pains me to be referred to with female pronouns, so I know how icky that feels. :gimmehug: to all the female ID'd butches.
I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned.
Ditto here.
And as such, pronouns are an issue for me because I havent started my transition. Female pronouns make me cringe...it's just how I am. but I know i have to live with it. What's worse is how many people in the queer community don't get it and don't repect my ID. You would think that others in this community would view me with openness and understanding.
Not true.
The ones who have been most receptive and understanding have been bisexual women who wanted to go out with me and straight women I've met. (I won't date, of course, because I don't want to date anyone.) But I was amazed at how "natural" references and understanding came to bisexual and straight women I've met. It's a far cry from the gay men who didn't want me at their social gathering because their families would be there and the lesbian woman who told me I made her uncomfortable.
Yanno, i'm just tired of all of it. I can only do what pleases me. And maybe day I can be loved for what/who i am.
Anyway, just a comment about my experiences since i haven't dropped in the last several pages. Thanks for reading.
Toughy
11-20-2009, 03:04 AM
I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned. And I am guilty of reverting to male pronouns and saying "bro" to butches without checking out their pronoun preference first. I do try to be mindful but I slip up sometimes and I am sorry. I never intend disrespect, but I understand that is what is sometimes the outcome. Please call me on it folks, cause it greatly pains me to be referred to with female pronouns, so I know how icky that feels. :gimmehug: to all the female ID'd butches.
Drew...........
you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........
and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......
life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........
speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........
PapaC
11-20-2009, 03:45 AM
Drew...........
you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........
and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......
life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........
speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........
*grabbing your squishy ass*.... I miss you, my little sissy-boi. ;)
:papac:
atomiczombie
11-20-2009, 04:15 AM
Drew...........
you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........
and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......
life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........
speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........
Thanks Sis. (hehe). I do respect you a great deal Tough, and you are someone I look up to in the community. I see how unapologetic you are about who you are and your rightful place in this world. It is a good role model for me. I know you have lived though much tougher times when it was more dangerous to be queer, and seeing you stand tall and proud is awesome.
Unndunn
11-20-2009, 04:39 AM
I believe in the theory that the hard stuff must be brought forth in order to
gain a better perspective n what have you. I read a lot. I may not jump
in to some conversations, because frankly some of them get over wrought
with bullshit back n forths that are more personal; than those that are
actually addressing the main Topic at hand. I am also one who tends
to care about the words that I use, and how all folks might interpret them.
And I never post my words as if I am right and everyone else who doesn't
agree just 'doesn't get it...so they are wrong'. I will not speak from a clouded
point of frustration, because when I read folks who do just that thing...I cannot
get past their disposition far enough to decipher what it is they are really
trying to say. Heated discussions are great, so long as the Topic does not
get clouded over in a circus of demeanor's that resemble hecklers with no
meaning, only destructive motives and divisiveness. There really is a way
to discuss the Hard Stuff without being fucked up to one side of the
conversationalists, and only defending those who agree with me.
To Me
Addressing anything Butch Femme related, includes the Voices of Past,
Present AND Future Butches of our Community. No one should feel left
out of a conversation (or the target of) over such things as pronouns,
which is just a preference as to how we have chosen to be addressed
within the Community. And yes, our commonalities are indeed more
significant than our differences.
:daywalker:
I put the part that resonated the most to me in blue. To me there's a huge difference between doing the hard work and attacking others to make your own voice heard. I find myself on the sidelines more and more because I see some of the same people who claim to be "doing the work" and "having the difficult conversations" being the ones who make the conversations more difficult than they need to be. I can't respect anyone who doesn't care about all of us as individuals. I can't respect someone who thinks it's okay to attack and rip people apart just because they don't agree. I won't respect anyone who acts as if their "message" is more important than civility and community. I'm just getting too old and too tired to want to be around anyone that enjoys the act of arguing more than the resolution of differences and miscommunications.
Milly
11-20-2009, 03:57 PM
Jet, only a femme that is in need of making her own self appear more important to herself, would say such things to a butch. Any woman, worth her salt, would never say such cruelties to someone she supposedly loves. For me to say these things to my spouse, would mean that I am less of a human for being with someone I apparently think so little of. I'm sorry for any hurtful words that a femme has said to you. I can imagine how very hurtful this would be for you or any other buth.
Cyclopea
11-20-2009, 09:55 PM
Ditto here.
And as such, pronouns are an issue for me because I havent started my transition. Female pronouns make me cringe...it's just how I am. but I know i have to live with it. What's worse is how many people in the queer community don't get it and don't repect my ID. You would think that others in this community would view me with openness and understanding.
Not true.
I know exactly how you feel as a butch when your gender is not respected. Male pronouns make me cringe. But I don't intend to live with it, and I don't think you should live with wrong pronouns either. We just need to keep correcting people. I also concur that one would hope that the queer community would be most conscious of diversity- we don't expect to be invalidated in our own community. We just need to keep educating people. Most of them probably mean well...
As for a girlfriend or partner that tries to inflict hurt through intentional disrespect- that's just nasty and I'm sorry that happened to you.
Because I know that sometimes, some wear their feelings on their sleeves about so many things, if there is any confusion on my part about which pronoun one prefers, I ask in a matter~of~fact way. I just want to know so that I will avoid any hurt feelings.
It doesn't make me cringe to make another person more comfortable with their identity.
:2cents:
kassykit
11-24-2009, 06:06 AM
I try to not use pronouns, i use names, reason being is unless i really really know you i have a horrid memory!
and at least with chats and forums...........every time you post your name is RIGHT there for me!!!
am sorry if i slipped up at any time and offended!
Just don't blow up at me say
"hey kass" and correct me nicely :) :)
-sends warm fuzzy hugs for those that want them and stuffs-
MainelyButch
12-01-2009, 10:07 AM
I know exactly how you feel as a butch when your gender is not respected. Male pronouns make me cringe. But I don't intend to live with it, and I don't think you should live with wrong pronouns either. We just need to keep correcting people. I also concur that one would hope that the queer community would be most conscious of diversity- we don't expect to be invalidated in our own community. We just need to keep educating people. Most of them probably mean well...
As for a girlfriend or partner that tries to inflict hurt through intentional disrespect- that's just nasty and I'm sorry that happened to you.
I'm with you on the "male pronouns make me cringe" as I want to be recognized as a woman still, even though I am very butch. I have learned so much from these forums (and other BF site forums) about the male id'd butch, and I respect that/them very much, yet I still want to personally be recognized as a strong butch woman, myself. It's been eye opening for me, living in small town Maine for sure. And the oft-times "invalidation within our own community", just pisses me off to no end. Why is it that us identifying ourselves as "butch" or "femme" is so threatening to some in our own community? I just can't understand this, you would think that there would be more support and acceptance within such a diverse community to start with, especially with the historical significance of the butch-femme dynamic.
Enjoying these forums, and looking forward to more topics and ideas. Hope everyone is enjoying the holiday season....to whatever degree you celebrate.
Converse
12-03-2009, 11:24 PM
On several sites over the last few days I have been reading threads that go beyond encouraging discussion/debate and instead the OP appears to be leading the dialogue in what feels to me like a propaganda exercise- perhaps my perception is slightly biased because the topics concern judgment & criticism/disapproval/dislike of so many things that are important to me including: Old School; the use of Hy/Hym pronouns and everything to do with male identified Butches; High Femmes; and the D/g and D/s dynamics. Other than the contributors, the other commonality that these threads share is the constant use of the words “Misogyny” and “Feminism”.
Probably I would not be so concerned if these had been the usual lesbian sites, as ridicule and condemnation is something, being a Butch, that I have experienced from “our sisters” in varying degrees since the 1970’s. I have had those that I fought alongside with; turn on me, when political dialogue drew many to conclude that my “presentation” represented everything that they were against. So in reading these threads I was not at first overly concerned, and simply put it down to it being part of the cyclical phase, history repeating itself etc, until it struck me – this time I’m reading/listening to the same “ridicule and condemnation” on sites with Butch-Femme in their title.
I never believed that in a community supposedly forged by those who identified with Butch-Femme and all of its nuances, that I would have to explain that being Butch wasn’t a desperate attempt to become male, or that anything in being who I was or my way of conducting myself had anything to do with emulating male behavior, nor would I imagine that a High Femme would have to feel the need to justify her want to dress/act in a certain way because it ran contrary to some others perception of what claiming womanhood should look like, or a person identifying as a babygirl or a submissive needing to explain that this is a choice only able to be embraced because of their strength and has absolutely nothing to do with any weakness. I have even read posts that have questioned the intelligence of people when their lifestyle/persona/desires do not fit the OP’s “should list”.
I have written elsewhere that it would be naïve to believe that we could “be”- without ever being judged by some, but what is happening when the very essence of who we are is being judged by those, who by their membership of this community, at the very least claim to support if not understand? Has the membership of these sites changed so much that to assume support is no longer valid?
Jet, only a femme that is in need of making her own self appear more important to herself, would say such things to a butch. Any woman, worth her salt, would never say such cruelties to someone she supposedly loves. For me to say these things to my spouse, would mean that I am less of a human for being with someone I apparently think so little of. I'm sorry for any hurtful words that a femme has said to you. I can imagine how very hurtful this would be for you or any other buth.
Milly, thank you for posting this. I was surprised when I saw this; I haven't been in this thread for some time. Christmas is nearing—for me— alone. You know, it wasn't the words...it was the betrayal. All I ever wanted was to love and be loved. It just....you know...wasn't meant to be. Thank you again, I wish you a great holiday.
I know exactly how you feel as a butch when your gender is not respected. Male pronouns make me cringe. But I don't intend to live with it, and I don't think you should live with wrong pronouns either. We just need to keep correcting people. I also concur that one would hope that the queer community would be most conscious of diversity- we don't expect to be invalidated in our own community. We just need to keep educating people. Most of them probably mean well...
As for a girlfriend or partner that tries to inflict hurt through intentional disrespect- that's just nasty and I'm sorry that happened to you.
I live in the deep south where pronouns are a part of respect, Every sentence begins with ..."Miss..." I can't change things—not even one person at a time; this is about tradition—hundreds of years, tradition. I think what pains me the most, is that I have danced around this issue for the better part of my life. I wanted to leave the midwest (which is nothing short of a tight perm) and come to an international city, thinking it would embrace diversity; it doesn't, it's just as provincial as LA; people were not "gender-ID" sensitive or versed there either.
Some things...
If I were to date again (which isn't plausible for me) I would do certain things, like make reservations and tell the restaurant that I want my wait staff to be gender-ID sensitive, and that protocol with me is to use masculine pronouns. Just an example of changing things in certain settings or situations.
But...
what really blows my mind is how discriminating folks are in our own community. My personal take is that I don't question people on who they are. It's not for me to understand, it's for me to respect another person, period.
I was "dis-invited" to 4th of July this year outing by a gay man who couldn't deal with the pronoun thing and didn't want me around because his sister and mother were going to be there. He was afraid I would embarrass them. I wasn't even given a chance to say that I would have been gracious towards them.
I'm done y'all. I live for myself—I don't get in anyone's way. I say very little.
Y'all have a wonderful holiday.
BullDog
12-17-2009, 09:36 AM
I am out of state at the moment and very shaggy. I miss my barber Vinnie. My customary flat top may be out. I might have to go for the quick buzz as I step out into the unknown, lol.
I'm letting mine grow out shoulder length...if I can take the stages. I don't do short hair
BullDog
12-17-2009, 09:55 AM
I'm letting mine grow out shoulder length...if I can take the stages. I don't do short hair
Well Jet, you are such a stylin gent. I think you hair will look good at any length.
Andrew, Jr.
12-17-2009, 01:48 PM
I have learned rejection very well. And in doing so, I live for myself. When others belittle me because of my haircut, my weight, my disabilities, or whatever, I think it is on them. Something must have happened to them to have to say that to me to be so mean and nasty. I am very sensitive to others. I sure would love to be loved by each and everyone. I have no clue as to what unconditional love is. One day I will. And like Jet, it is just a matter of living day to day.
I have been dis-invited to parties too. I recently made a huge error in judgement. I sent pictures out to several people. I thought I could trust and love them. Instead, they used the pictures I sent them as a means of criticisms and jokes. So, I learned my lesson. Not everyone is who they say they are online. Sad but true. And the debates over my name/gender change...I had no idea it was really anyone's business but my own. Well, it just shows me about peace, love, and respect. I think everyone needs to have unconditional love. No matter what. That is why I pray for people all the time. It is my hope that we won't have this ugliness much more. I want everyone to just love each other. That's all.
Jet, like you, I let anyone just say whatever. I try to listen and understand. And then they get mad at me for that. I am not too sure of why. I am no where near a threat to anyone. I am a very simple guy. But like you, I have learned the art of walking away. Sometimes it is the best move for me.
Peace.
Well Jet, you are such a stylin gent. I think you hair will look good at any length.
Well thank you very kindly Bully. It's nice of you to say.
Now Andrew,
Contrary to popular belief, I was once a kind, gentle and loving man. I say man because my insides have always been wired that way. I was the kind of guy who would go to war for a woman as silly and corny as it sounds. But that was my ethic and my heart.
Then something happened that changed my life. Something I didn't deserve just like all the things you don't deserve. Tell 'em to kiss your ass, Andrew. What is a man really? His values? His love for others? His kindness? Courage? Ethics? All wrapped up in a natural masculinity? The waters of a man run deep don't they? What brings me the most sorrow is the bitter asshole I've become because of loss and pain and betrayal. Well, I'm coming back... slowly but surely and it takes everything in my being and my fiber to remember and reclaim most of the person I was, now older and seasoned and hewn like a rock. And maybe someday, I'll love deeply again. I don't know any other way to love actually. When I love, the person I love will have everything I can give. But this deep, rich love starts within yourself, as something solid and strong and sure, so much so that nothing and no one and sway you. I wish you the best Andrew.
Andrew, Jr.
12-17-2009, 03:02 PM
Jet,
It is amazing to me how vicious people are today. I am not sure of what happened. My best friend was my late Grandfather. He taught me everything from smoking cigars, how to throw a curve ball, driving his pickup, to growing vegetables, fishing, hunting, to having faith, and drinking beer. He never told me about how horrible some people are. But then again, he was a man who had a 1st grade education, and quit school to work to help support his family during the depression. He worked on a farm. It was a matter of survival.
My Grandfather had a saying that is close to yours. He would say that still waters run deep. How true he was about that.
Peace to you my brother,
Andrew
BullDog
12-17-2009, 04:52 PM
You're welcome Jet. I really enjoy your pictures. You are very artistic and have a great sense of style.
Andrew, I am sorry to hear about your bad experiences. It does suck. I have had a few barbershops give me the cold shoulder. I am visiting Central PA from Portland, OR. I wasn't sure how people would take me, but so far everyone has been really nice to me. Today went great. I just went to some random barbershop today and got a great barber- Roy- who is definitely old school barber and gave me a great flat top. :)
Andrew, Jr.
12-17-2009, 07:04 PM
Bulldog,
I have been going to the same barbar shop for 12 years now. If they closed tomorrow, I wouldn't know where to go. I think alot of guys nowadays go to Hair Cutteries, Happy Cuts, and the like.
Your hair style does not define who you are, or what is inside you. That is your soul. That is why I was quite taken back when I saw what was stated. I have short hair, and it is very fine, and poker straight. I wonder what the said poster would have said to the guy who was getting a perm in the chair next to mine. It makes one wonder. :(
Jet is a good man. I have known him for a number of years. He has been such a wonderful support system of mine. :cowboy:
Peace,
Andrew
Bulldog,
I have been going to the same barbar shop for 12 years now. If they closed tomorrow, I wouldn't know where to go. I think alot of guys nowadays go to Hair Cutteries, Happy Cuts, and the like.
Your hair style does not define who you are, or what is inside you. That is your soul. That is why I was quite taken back when I saw what was stated. I have short hair, and it is very fine, and poker straight. I wonder what the said poster would have said to the guy who was getting a perm in the chair next to mine. It makes one wonder. :(
Jet is a good man. I have known him for a number of years. He has been such a wonderful support system of mine. :cowboy:
Peace,
Andrew
You're very kind Andrew. Take care little bro...
WILDCAT
12-17-2009, 07:28 PM
You're welcome Jet. I really enjoy your pictures. You are very artistic and have a great sense of style.
Andrew, I am sorry to hear about your bad experiences. It does suck. I have had a few barbershops give me the cold shoulder. I am visiting Central PA from Portland, OR. I wasn't sure how people would take me, but so far everyone has been really nice to me. Today went great. I just went to some random barbershop today and got a great barber- Roy- who is definitely old school barber and gave me a great flat top. :)
Yeah, you'd better watch out when you're talking "PA" Bull.
It's called the "KEYSTONE STATE" for a reason!! WINK, WINK!!! Hell, you could go to the local barber right here in my home town and get the cut you wanted. You would "think" she is a dyke first off, and she would definitely then "crew ya" - while the guys all considered you "just one of the boys"!
You'd just have to watch out for your ears though, (depending on how much the barber lady had to drink that day already). Blood may have been spilled on those floors throughout the years - but ALL IN GOOD SPIRITED FUN! It's a tradition of sorts - going back to the old days of "Sherm the barber"... except he would cut your ears watching women going up and down the street. He had his stash though, the infamous "backroom". (Everyone had a stash in the backroom in those days. Even the guy who ran the teen place with the soda fountain, juke box... heck, even OUR OWN RUN TEEN PLACE had the backroom stash!) lol
Ahhhhhhh, yearning for the days of youth, it appears today!
:heavyweight:
WILD
YouTube- Lonesome Polecat Seven Brides For Seven Brothers OST
I’m a lonesome polecat
Lonesome sad and blue
‘Cause I ain’t got no feminine polecat
Vowing to be true.
I’m a mean old houndog
Baying at the moon
‘Cause I ain’t got no lady friend houndog
Here to hear my tune.
Ooh ooh
Can’t make no vows --
To a herd of cows.
I’m a lonesome polecat
Lonesome sad and blue
‘Cause I ain’t got no feminine polecat
Vowing to be true.
Ooh ooh
Can’t shoot no breeze --
To a bunch of trees.
Galahad
02-17-2010, 10:30 PM
http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/author/Ivan%20E%20Coyote.aspx
I enjoy Ivan Coyote's articles on xtra . com, and this new one about "getting over the ex butch style" was no exception. Anyone else have any sure fire ways for getting over her and getting back out there? Any stories to tell?
apretty
02-17-2010, 11:43 PM
http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/author/Ivan%20E%20Coyote.aspx
I enjoy Ivan Coyote's articles on xtra . com, and this new one about "getting over the ex butch style" was no exception. Anyone else have any sure fire ways for getting over her and getting back out there? Any stories to tell?
1. get drunk
2. sleep with her bestfriend
3. call her (while you're still drunk) and confess
4. borrow your friend's big truck and drive all over her lawn
5. call her and cry
6. ask to be just friends
7. send her 40 text messages in one day
8. show up where you think she'll be
9. try to become her mom's/sister's/dad's new bestfriend.
10. record yourself singing a sad song and send it to her email
11. send her a dedication on the 'quiet storm'
12. get her name tattooed on your arm and then send her a picture of it
13. kidnap her dog and then help her suddenly, miraculously *find* said dog.
14. if she lives alone, send her a scary letter from anonymous and hope that she'll look to you for comfort
15. bake her a cake and give her a sketch that you've made of her face
16. if you have something that she's gave you, break it and send her the pieces.
17. write, '*her name* is a SLUT' on the side of a building that you know she'll see
18. sleep with her mom
19. sign her up for strange catalogues
20. ice cream
apretty
02-19-2010, 05:59 PM
i have this super amazingly long chore list, feel me bros?
-a super butchy dress :farmshotgun:
i have to clean my room! and i have to re-pot a mint that Ez bought me! and i have to do the dishes that i made (cuz i promised i would)!
I'm starting to think it's all in the mindset of how we think and possibly do things? Here's an example:
This morning my lovely Kat had just woken up and we sit in the living room and have coffee and talk, etc. before we start our day. She keeps a box of kleenex on the end table in which I used the last one before she got there this morning. When she went to reach for one, there was just an empty box.
I immediately got up and offered to go to the bathroom to get her some toilet paper to blow her nose with. She corrected me by saying that there were kleenex in the bedroom. I went in there and saw the silver, metal box that holds the kleenex and decided to bring the whole thing. She laughs as I hand it to her and says... 'typical guy'.
I'm confused, I don't know what I've done, what's she talking about? She points out that a femme would have brought another femme 3 or 4 of the tissues through the midair to her. I thinking - 'really, they would have?' To transport the kleenex this way just didn't occur to me. And, I guess the more feminine mind would not have thought to blow their nose on the toilet paper to begin with?
I find the differences amusing.
Here's another example: I decided to help Kat with the laundry yesterday since I'm laundry spastic and figured I fold some towels, couldn't screw up too badly there? We keep them on an open shelf outside the shower and naturally, we have big and smaller ones.
I folded what I thought was all the big ones to put on the bottom of the stack... and then folded the smaller ones... I put them on the shelf - then, a big another big towel popped up from somewhere... I thought about re-arranging all of them to make it correct but since it was a reach and they looked so nice - I didn't want to disturb them... so I put the big towel on top of the smaller ones. It looked pretty precarious, like a tower of towels about to fall... but, I figured I'd be taking a shower soon and take care of that big one on top.
Kat walks into the bathroom today and starts laughing out loud... I say, 'What now?'... I'd already forgotten about it... lol I'm thinking she's lucky that she didn't find all the towels on the floor.
Ashlea?
02-20-2010, 09:40 AM
I'm starting to think it's all in the mindset of how we think and possibly do things? Here's an example:
This morning my lovely Kat had just woken up and we sit in the living room and have coffee and talk, etc. before we start our day. She keeps a box of kleenex on the end table in which I used the last one before she got there this morning. When she went to reach for one, there was just an empty box.
I immediately got up and offered to go to the bathroom to get her some toilet paper to blow her nose with. She corrected me by saying that there were kleenex in the bedroom. I went in there and saw the silver, metal box that holds the kleenex and decided to bring the whole thing. She laughs as I hand it to her and says... 'typical guy'.
I'm confused, I don't know what I've done, what's she talking about? She points out that a femme would have brought another femme 3 or 4 of the tissues through the midair to her. I thinking - 'really, they would have?' To transport the kleenex this way just didn't occur to me. And, I guess the more feminine mind would not have thought to blow their nose on the toilet paper to begin with?
I find the differences amusing.
I too have seen this with many "Femme" ladies. I'm just pissing in the wind but using your example, I think the women feel guys would have just grabbed the box without thinking about grabbing the needed amount. Kind of like the "Dur" effect I guess? I'm not sure. Mmm I shall investigate this further.
I am a traditional style ladygent, and I get this all the time from my femme partner and even straight women o.O, It's like they DON'T want to be respected which leads into society washing out decency towards women, or they are not used to it.
I'm rambling. Slap me next time and i'll stop.:|
Here's another example: I decided to help Kat with the laundry yesterday since I'm laundry spastic and figured I fold some towels, couldn't screw up too badly there? We keep them on an open shelf outside the shower and naturally, we have big and smaller ones.
I folded what I thought was all the big ones to put on the bottom of the stack... and then folded the smaller ones... I put them on the shelf - then, a big another big towel popped up from somewhere... I thought about re-arranging all of them to make it correct but since it was a reach and they looked so nice - I didn't want to disturb them... so I put the big towel on top of the smaller ones. It looked pretty precarious, like a tower of towels about to fall... but, I figured I'd be taking a shower soon and take care of that big one on top.
Kat walks into the bathroom today and starts laughing out loud... I say, 'What now?'... I'd already forgotten about it... lol I'm thinking she's lucky that she didn't find all the towels on the floor.
I think THIS is a perfectionist querk. ALL of the women in my family are like this. If you're going to help fold laundry, set what you have done right in front of them but NOT ON THE OTHER CLOTHES. Dear god, you'll hear if it's the wrong place.
:pipe: <- To blame for this post.
Cyclopea
02-20-2010, 10:19 AM
i have this super amazingly long chore list, feel me bros?
-a super butchy dress :farmshotgun:
i have to clean my room! and i have to re-pot a mint that Ez bought me! and i have to do the dishes that i made (cuz i promised i would)!
Need a tissue?
http://toiletpapercovers.com/images/offer4.jpg
apretty
02-20-2010, 10:31 AM
Need a tissue?
http://toiletpapercovers.com/images/offer4.jpg
thank you for bringing me the whole box--'butch' way! ;)
bake her a cake=========Vote for Pedro
Stoney
02-20-2010, 10:54 AM
I have been reading this thread and I wanted to mention a previous thread right in the beginning. Ol'Jet you said something about being de- masculinized.. ( forgive me if I am saying it wrong) I noticed quite a few people who felt that that was more or less a male ID'd problem. I wanted to mention , that many years ago I was in a relationship with this woman , ( who first represented herself as a femme but really wasnt ,anyways that's another story ) This woman was something else, the butch- femme dynamic in the relationship pretty much flew outthe window the day I moved in with her. that day, I left my home and friends, traveled over 600 miles,had no sleep for days, unloaded a 18 foot truck full of my stuff and my kids into a garage! plus the whole 9 hour drive in a uhaul ( on my birthday) well I just sat down after all that , and I cried.She walked in the bedroom and looked at me and said ' HOPE YOU KNOW k how much you are turnin me off right now, I dont think Ill ever feel the same about you. Some fuckin butch! If I wanted a femme I would have stayed with my ex.( even though I am female Identified I have felt that pain , maybe not the same way but It was a huge blow for some reason, and i was effected by those words deeply. I was always having to prove my " butchiness" with her .
the relationship was very short lived after that day
It messed with my head a long time after that relationship ended. and for a long time every time I cried, her words would resurface.
now I am who I am, I cry, I laugh , I Burp( alot and very well I might add)
now it seems crazy that I let those words hurt me so much and question my very being.. but I definitely had a different mind set back then.
hope this relates,
always enjoy your posts Ol' Jet!
Stoney
DapperButch
02-20-2010, 12:16 PM
I'm starting to think it's all in the mindset of how we think and possibly do things? Here's an example:
This morning my lovely Kat had just woken up and we sit in the living room and have coffee and talk, etc. before we start our day. She keeps a box of kleenex on the end table in which I used the last one before she got there this morning. When she went to reach for one, there was just an empty box.
I immediately got up and offered to go to the bathroom to get her some toilet paper to blow her nose with. She corrected me by saying that there were kleenex in the bedroom. I went in there and saw the silver, metal box that holds the kleenex and decided to bring the whole thing. She laughs as I hand it to her and says... 'typical guy'.
I'm confused, I don't know what I've done, what's she talking about? She points out that a femme would have brought another femme 3 or 4 of the tissues through the midair to her. I thinking - 'really, they would have?' To transport the kleenex this way just didn't occur to me. And, I guess the more feminine mind would not have thought to blow their nose on the toilet paper to begin with?
I find the differences amusing.
Now, see, I would have brought her the box because I thought that this is what one is supposed to do because it is more sanitary than touching a person's tissues. At least I have always assumed that this is the reason why I have seen people bring other people the whole box instead of just a few. :confused: Plus, how am I to know how many she will need?
However, I will also say that I am pretty certain that I have only ever offered a woman some toilet paper to blow her nose when they have been in my house (I live alone). The reason? I never buy tissues...seems like a waste of money if you have toilet paper! And if someone is crying...I have been known to bring them the whole roll!
AtLast
02-20-2010, 01:00 PM
Hummmm.... thinking I don't buy Kleenex/tissue either and live alone, but for the life of me, I just can't see most of this kind of stuff in relationship to my being butch. I might feel badly about not having some real tissue to offer but this has to do with courtesy, not my butchness.
Sure, I have had some only a butch/guy would do that from femmes. My first reaction is correcting the use of guy with me. Secondly, I have no connection to anything around de-masculinization and find it personally insulting. There is nothing to de, or emasculate with me. I am not a man and my masculine traits are just part of the female I am.
And if I had to somehow defend my butch identity based upon stereotypes of men and male behavior, I would be out the door!
No, this butch does not understand much of this. But, some of you do, so all is good. Sometimes when I ask my son (an adult) about some of these kinds of references to men/masculine traits as applied to butches, he just shakes his head..... and says he’s glad I’m the butch woman I am because all that man-crap is so oppressive. And yes, he would most likely go get his wife the box of tissues. It would be about not touching them before she used them (a cleanliness thang and not knowing how many she wants).
I'm starting to think it's all in the mindset of how we think and possibly do things? Here's an example:
This morning my lovely Kat had just woken up and we sit in the living room and have coffee and talk, etc. before we start our day. She keeps a box of kleenex on the end table in which I used the last one before she got there this morning. When she went to reach for one, there was just an empty box.
I immediately got up and offered to go to the bathroom to get her some toilet paper to blow her nose with. She corrected me by saying that there were kleenex in the bedroom. I went in there and saw the silver, metal box that holds the kleenex and decided to bring the whole thing. She laughs as I hand it to her and says... 'typical guy'.
I'm confused, I don't know what I've done, what's she talking about? She points out that a femme would have brought another femme 3 or 4 of the tissues through the midair to her. I thinking - 'really, they would have?' To transport the kleenex this way just didn't occur to me. And, I guess the more feminine mind would not have thought to blow their nose on the toilet paper to begin with?
I find the differences amusing.
those differences are nothing to sneeze at
Now, see, I would have brought her the box because I thought that this is what one is supposed to do because it is more sanitary than touching a person's tissues. At least I have always assumed that this is the reason why I have seen people bring other people the whole box instead of just a few. :confused: Plus, how am I to know how many she will need?
However, I will also say that I am pretty certain that I have only ever offered a woman some toilet paper to blow her nose when they have been in my house (I live alone). The reason? I never buy tissues...seems like a waste of money if you have toilet paper! And if someone is crying...I have been known to bring them the whole roll!
now see dapper, i keep kleenex on hand for guests—kind of like serving real butter at dinner. i live alone and if some woman fell into my lap crying i'd offer kleenex instead of toilet paper so she wouldn;'t think i was an ass wipe. lol
DapperButch
02-20-2010, 02:02 PM
now see dapper, i keep kleenex on hand for guests—kind of like serving real butter at dinner. i live alone and if some woman fell into my lap crying i'd offer kleenex instead of toilet paper so she wouldn;'t think i was an ass wipe. lol
This is quite funny.
Now do ya not think that I always end up wishing I had real tissues when I see any guest needing one in my home? Yeah, I know, obviously it doesn't impact me enough or I would be sure to have some on hand! I gots to remember this one...
KayCee
02-20-2010, 02:11 PM
My goodness, next time I'll just use toilet paper to blow my nose and put the towels up myself, huh? It's not about id's, feeling insulted, non-respected or what ever or how to present a box of Kleenex. It's the different way we think/act what amuses us and as some would say, having typical male or female traits which lets us feel more butch or femme.
And the way my GUY and I feel comfortable with this or not, is between us.
Please, excuse me for 'infiltrating' your butch thread. I don't need this...really.
Kat
I'mOneToo
02-20-2010, 02:53 PM
I don't go into threads that are specifically intended for femme discussion, although sometimes i do read them sometimes. I wouldn't comment about which mascara to use or what kind of purse or high heels they're discussing because it's not relevant to my life. I suppose I could make some smartass comments and ridicule those things just to see my words and try to get a reaction, but it would be a negative reaction.
By the same token, some threads such as this, which says "only another butch would understand", has a title that's a little vague. Maybe it should say "only a MALE *ID'd* BUTCH WOULD UNDERSTAND". Because now there's divisiveness about this type of butch might, and another type of butch might in fact NOT understand.
Then you may get a femme who does a drive-by that is purely designed to ridicule the thread and the people posting in it. That may get picked up by a butch who is not of the "understanding" persuasion, and it can get to be a free-for-all.
Maybe the name of the thread could be changed. Or, maybe people who can't identify with the topic could refrain from commenting and inciting others to continue in that divisive vein. But that's just my opinion, which IT, and 5 dollars, will get you a cafe mocha grande.
Kat, you did not infiltrate. I think have a right to have your say if you feel you are being maligned, in any thread.
I have been reading this thread and I wanted to mention a previous thread right in the beginning. Ol'Jet you said something about being de- masculinized.. ( forgive me if I am saying it wrong) I noticed quite a few people who felt that that was more or less a male ID'd problem. I wanted to mention , that many years ago I was in a relationship with this woman , ( who first represented herself as a femme but really wasnt ,anyways that's another story ) This woman was something else, the butch- femme dynamic in the relationship pretty much flew outthe window the day I moved in with her. that day, I left my home and friends, traveled over 600 miles,had no sleep for days, unloaded a 18 foot truck full of my stuff and my kids into a garage! plus the whole 9 hour drive in a uhaul ( on my birthday) well I just sat down after all that , and I cried.She walked in the bedroom and looked at me and said ' HOPE YOU KNOW k how much you are turnin me off right now, I dont think Ill ever feel the same about you. Some fuckin butch! If I wanted a femme I would have stayed with my ex.( even though I am female Identified I have felt that pain , maybe not the same way but It was a huge blow for some reason, and i was effected by those words deeply. I was always having to prove my " butchiness" with her .
the relationship was very short lived after that day
It messed with my head a long time after that relationship ended. and for a long time every time I cried, her words would resurface.
now I am who I am, I cry, I laugh , I Burp( alot and very well I might add)
now it seems crazy that I let those words hurt me so much and question my very being.. but I definitely had a different mind set back then.
hope this relates,
always enjoy your posts Ol' Jet!
Stoney
I am so sorry you experienced this, Stoney. I don't know what causes some people to flip the switch like this. I will never get it after building up a trust, and thinking there is a very clear understanding about sexual-orientation and IDs. For me, the blow was that someone I loved, and who I never thought would stoop so low, did very much the same thing as we were breaking up. In that moment, it was as though I didn't even know her. Even though I went through this, it hasn't changed who i am. What has changed now is my complete lack of trust in getting involved. I will never—and i mean never—put trust in anyone again. The prospect of going it alone at 53, is not fun. But it is what it is.
Corkey
02-20-2010, 02:57 PM
This Male ID'd Butch finds the whole premise divisive.
That is all.
Queerasfck
02-20-2010, 03:25 PM
i have this super amazingly long chore list, feel me bros?
-a super butchy dress :farmshotgun:
i have to clean my room! and i have to re-pot a mint that Ez bought me! and i have to do the dishes that i made (cuz i promised i would)!
Shouldn't you be in the kitchen?? Maybe you just need a spankin!
So outta hand!
I'mOneToo
02-20-2010, 03:26 PM
i've only been hospitalized a couple of times in a couple of years, and they always give me boxes of tissues to take home (cuz one you touch them, they're yours). I do keep them for special guests. It just wouldn't occur to me to buy boxes of kleenex with special holders and stuff, because i just blow my nose on an old sock or a pair of boxers or whatever's handy. {JUST KIDDING} I use TP. Save the tissues for guests.
I have a female relative who's fairly femme. In her bathroom she has a special designer tissue holder but it's always empty. The holder itself is the decor. Maybe she blows on TP or the old standby, a dirty washrag. LOL.
This is quite funny.
Now do ya not think that I always end up wishing I had real tissues when I see any guest needing one in my home? Yeah, I know, obviously it doesn't impact me enough or I would be sure to have some on hand! I gots to remember this one...
Queerasfck
02-20-2010, 03:29 PM
Then you may get a femme who does a drive-by that is purely designed to ridicule the thread and the people posting in it. That may get picked up by a butch who is not of the "understanding" persuasion, and it can get to be a free-for-all.
That woman, sheeesh. Drivin by and stuff. Wish she'd never got the vote.
apretty
02-20-2010, 03:29 PM
Then you may get a femme who does a drive-by that is purely designed to ridicule the thread and the people posting in it. That may get picked up by a butch who is not of the "understanding" persuasion, and it can get to be a free-for-all.
Kat, you did not infiltrate. I think have a right to have your say if you feel you are being maligned, in any thread.
why's Kat get to come in here and i don't?
i ain't ridiculing nothin'! i was getting in touch with my only-a-butch-would-understand side! u ain't dean thoreau, this ain't your thread to bar me from!
have your dumb thread!
I'mOneToo
02-20-2010, 03:44 PM
lol.
well you are right about that. i got the general impression by the words she wrote, that somethin had blowed up that shouldn'ta. dean rarely stops by to tends his fires. nobody said you couldn't come in, there isn't a sign that says "NO GURLZ ALOWD" on it. but if you do, just know that some of the butches who don't even understand each other too well, sometimes don't understand the femmes who come drivin-by.
next time i get in touch with my femme side i'll be sure and stop over on one of those femme threads and ... well... see it's just exactly the opposite. if i were to do that, i would be ridiculed for it. so how come it's okay to come in with your butch side, obviously failing to understand? let me expound...
i don't know about the other butches here, whether male id'd or not, who use a shotgun to clean their room. they left that part of my manual out. so either you are doing something wrong, or the rest of us have been using a technique never mentioned before.
do you blow a shell into the pot, and then plant the mint?
why's Kat get to come in here and i don't?
i ain't ridiculing nothin'! i was getting in touch with my only-a-butch-would-understand side! u ain't dean thoreau, this ain't your thread to bar me from!
have your dumb thread!
I'mOneToo
02-20-2010, 03:48 PM
which came first -- the women being allowed to drive, or the women being allowed to vote?
That woman, sheeesh. Drivin by and stuff. Wish she'd never got the vote.
Queerasfck
02-20-2010, 03:54 PM
lol.
i don't know about the other butches here, whether male id'd or not, who use a shotgun to clean their room. they left that part of my manual out. so either you are doing something wrong, or the rest of us have been using a technique never mentioned before.
do you blow a shell into the pot, and then plant the mint?
She's a gun nut.
I'mOneToo
02-20-2010, 03:59 PM
ah. that explains everything.
come to think of it, the easiest way to do the dishes is blow them to smithereens and go buy new ones. i might try that myself.
amending section 4, item C, subsection 2a, the manual now reads: shotgun and shells are handy for cleaning room, potting plant, and cleaning dishes.
please circulate in triplicate
She's a gun nut.
AtLast
02-20-2010, 04:08 PM
I do need to say that some of this stuff can be funny, and even endearing between partners. This is not lost on me at all. I have a sensitivity to gender stereotypes as well as how they get placed upon both butches and femmes, but this doesn't mean I don't get the closeness that comes from our personal interactions and processes.
I know I can get as upset with stereotypes of men/males as much as with female/women and that goes for the horrible assumptions I see about my male-identified, trans/FtM/MtF/IG brothers & sisters along with what female-identified butches get thrown at them (us). Sometimes when I see it in our own (all of us) space, it just makes me mad. There is so much of it in the real-time world for each and every one of us on countless levels.
I do want to make certain that my previous comments were not really about identifications here, but simply stereotypes of men and masculinity which I actually don't like being thrown at non-female-identified butches as much as men/males of every part of our diverse (and proud) community of butches.
:seconddoh:
Mister Bent
02-20-2010, 04:10 PM
See.
Here's what I'm thinking.
It's not about whether it's a "butch" thread or a "femme" thread and who all gets to post up in it and what not.
I think it's about the level of ridiculousness of a thread. And this one, I'm reasonably certain, was branded with a big ol' R sometime ago. I only peek in here for the humor of it, not in any way seeking butch bonding or understanding, because I'm just not down with all the stereotyping and separatism that's occurred.
I'mOneToo
02-20-2010, 04:20 PM
I agree, and disagree, and agree all over again. The topic was never well defined, the OP started on a rocky road and it's never come up right again. Because I couldn't even find it after it fell to the bottom of the nether-pit, I thought it had been, um "archived" and no longer accessible. I'm not here every day, don't see it and so this is the first to catch my eye again. And the first page I looked at was the last, which was a veritable stew with every ingredient available thrown in.
Now I find myself posting purely as humorously as possible, because it's gone beyond any point of intention. It is an equal-opportunity-offending thread, so it will be a long way before it ever redeems itself (if it ever does).
What I object to is when someone gets hurt. Butch OR femme. Because what one considers light banter, another may take very personally. So I sit and wait to see if anyone is going to say anything about the latest turn, but no one does. So i open my fool fingers, and bam, i'm in the thick of something I don't want any part of. I am pretty adept at discerning those who can take a little ribbing, like Ezee and pretty, and others who do not take it so well. I try not to be an equal opportunity offender, and I don't get offended that easily either unless you are truly trying to shank me.
DapperButch
02-20-2010, 04:30 PM
See.
Here's what I'm thinking.
It's not about whether it's a "butch" thread or a "femme" thread and who all gets to post up in it and what not.
I think it's about the level of ridiculousness of a thread. And this one, I'm reasonably certain, was branded with a big ol' R sometime ago. I only peek in here for the humor of it, not in any way seeking butch bonding or understanding, because I'm just not down with all the stereotyping and separatism that's occurred.
Interesting. See, I didn't think about it being a butch thread either, I just chuckled at Kam's experience with hyes partner and thought about how I, as a person (not as a butch) also handed the whole box to people. And then I was chuckling at the fact that I (as a person), never have tissues to begin with.
I very much doubt that if there was a poll regarding how a butch vs. how a femme hands tissues to a person that we would see a trend one way or the other.
I get what you are saying about how the start of the thread went...I was working from the current topic where I didn't see any stereotyping (I really wasn't thinking about what happened prior to Kam's post, since the bulk of the thread was back in December).
Anyway...that was what was happening inside me during the time I chose to post...
ETA: It makes more sense to me now why people were reacting. I was confused at first. I had forgotten where the thread had started and how it had impacted people...
Dylan
02-20-2010, 04:34 PM
Maybe laaaaaaadieeeezzzzzz buy tissues 'cuz they ain't got no sleeves on their purdy dresses and such?
Dylan...doesn't put nails in the wall with the heels of shoes
apretty
02-20-2010, 04:44 PM
lol.
well you are right about that. i got the general impression by the words she wrote, that somethin had blowed up that shouldn'ta. dean rarely stops by to tends his fires. nobody said you couldn't come in, there isn't a sign that says "NO GURLZ ALOWD" on it. but if you do, just know that some of the butches who don't even understand each other too well, sometimes don't understand the femmes who come drivin-by. you're right, and thank you!
next time i get in touch with my femme side i'll be sure and stop over on one of those femme threads and ... well... see it's just exactly the opposite. if i were to do that, i would be ridiculed for it. so how come it's okay to come in with your butch side, obviously failing to understand? let me expound... don't worry 'bout them ladies have a problem with sharing their thread-space, they need a strong (handsome!) butch-type to wrangle in their emotional-postings!
i don't know about the other butches here, whether male id'd or not, who use a shotgun to clean their room. they left that part of my manual out. so either you are doing something wrong, or the rest of us have been using a technique never mentioned before.
do you blow a shell into the pot, and then plant the mint?
the gun's an extension of my masculinity ;) :farmshotgun:
truthfully, i used the gun b/c my indifference to gun-ownership drives EZ crazy, plus it's there and i like the subversive little icons, i wish there was a purse-size pistol, but what can you do.
we're bros-4-ever, now--your response to me cracked me up.
(maybe i spoke too soon, EZ is questioning my need for a bro, bro) :P
I'mOneToo
02-20-2010, 04:51 PM
hahaha well yep bro i guess so i needed another brother anyway, the only one i got speaks only to me through his spokesperson. you at least dialog direct. maybe ezee could be YOUR spokesperson then i'd have two bro's with spokespeople.
as long as you're here, got any special butch laundry tips? please don't pull out the scissors tool, or a gun, can't afford a new wardrobe.
the gun's an extension of my masculinity ;) :farmshotgun:
truthfully, i used the gun b/c my indifference to gun-ownership drives EZ crazy, plus it's there and i like the subversive little icons, i wish there was a purse-size pistol, but what can you do.
we're bros-4-ever, now--your response to me cracked me up.
(maybe i spoke too soon, EZ is questioning my need for a bro, bro) :P
AtLast
02-20-2010, 07:16 PM
I do have one...
I am always at a loss when a woman I am seeing wants to know what the attire is for the date. Once, I just described what I was going to wear and she emailed me back and siad - So, what does your wearing a Superman tie tell me? Do you want me to wear something I can fly around on your shoulders in? Or, bring a typewriter? Signed, Lois
:cheesy:
apretty
02-20-2010, 07:49 PM
hahaha well yep bro i guess so i needed another brother anyway, the only one i got speaks only to me through his spokesperson. you at least dialog direct. maybe ezee could be YOUR spokesperson then i'd have two bro's with spokespeople.
as long as you're here, got any special butch laundry tips? please don't pull out the scissors tool, or a gun, can't afford a new wardrobe.
1. don't use too much soap! separate lights and darks and wash whites in their own load with a small amount of bleach. please never wash a white with a dark. (this is something that *some* of us have trouble remembering/caring about)
2. if you have something you want to stay nice, wash it on the gentle cycle and use a gentle soap like woolite. you can either let it dry for a couple of minutes on low and then take it out and air dry it or you can skip the dryer altogether and let it air dry--this will save the fabric feel and color. (this is also good if you have a pair of tighter jeans, you can wash them and stretch them while they're damp and let air dry)
3. iron with a spray bottle of water, if it's a cotton shirt do the front and collar last--it won't re-wrinkle as you manipulate the fabric around the ironing board.
4. iron wool pants on the coolest setting (the iron-setting) between trips to the dry cleaner--and turned inside-out will be more kind to the fabric, too--but experts say that using a pressing cloth between the iron and the fabric to avoid those horrible shiny-iron-marks example: http://www.sewingplace.com/browseproducts/Couture-Press-Cloth.HTML
5. also, i avoid washing towels of any sort (rugs, too) with anything that i'll be wearing--those little bits of fuzz never seem to come off the clothes and it's one of those things that just bug me (additionally, i like to buy only white towels/sheets so i can, like a hotel, bleach them all to super white when they get a little dirty). what's nicer than a crisp white cotton 500+ thread count sheet set? not much i say.
lastly, wash nicer things in cold, blacks will stay black in cold... i get a little weird about faded blacks/blacks that don't match.
*now i may lose my bro card!
DapperButch
02-20-2010, 09:07 PM
I do have one...
I am always at a loss when a woman I am seeing wants to know what the attire is for the date. Once, I just described what I was going to wear and she emailed me back and siad - So, what does your wearing a Superman tie tell me? Do you want me to wear something I can fly around on your shoulders in? Or, bring a typewriter? Signed, Lois
:cheesy:
LOL She sounds great!
Galahad
02-20-2010, 10:18 PM
I use cotton handkerchiefs. Always keep a clean extra in my back pocket in case someone is in need.
I use cotton handkerchiefs. Always keep a clean extra in my back pocket in case someone is in need.
excellent. i like your film noire style
I'mOneToo
02-20-2010, 10:29 PM
wowza!
well bro -- um see i knew you would be full of good advice. been doing it wrong all along. if you can follow this particular butch's logic.... here's how the clothes get divided.
first you put them in two piles. all the heavy stuff goes in one pile, all the lightweight stuff goes in the other. then, you subdivide each pile by kinda light colored stuff, and kinda dark colored stuff. then you take the four piles and then you separate ALL the black stuff (whether lightweight or heavy) and make a separate pile. this creates five piles. but because there's a lot of black clothes, it makes the other piles much smaller.
then you take one of the piles of light-colored lightweight stuff and combine it with one of the piles of heavyweight kinda light-colored stuff. then you take the leftover pile of dark-colored lightweight stuff and combine that with the last pile of dark-colored heavyweight stuff.
what remains are three loads. blacks of all weights, lightweights of all colors, and heavyweights of all colors except black.
there aren't any white clothes because everything that was white at the store turns out sort of grey after the first washing but against black clothing, it almost looks white. and last week, somehow a pink washcloth got in with the whitish clothes (no idea where it came from because i certainly have no pink items not even washcloths but that's for another thread). anyway the whitish stuff came out pinkish so hopefully this time it will come out less pink and more gray like it should. lol.
i will try your method of sorting and see how it goes tomorrow. although, have not been able to figure out if there are different speeds or how gentle differs from the slam-bang mode it usually works in. the towels and rugs are all dark and i don't give them much thought in the washer because it's the drying that makes the difference in getting the fuzz on everything, so i do dry them all by themselves. the sheets, who knows, they could be count dracula for all i know. i like them scratchy.
the ironing, the shirt advice and all that, i'd be too embarrassed to go into detail. the 'rumpled look' is in nowadays, i've finally caught up with current fashion.
could possibly just be lazy logic, rather than something only a butch would know or do.
thank you very much for your sage advice, as you disembark from this ride please hand your bro card to the attendant standing by. you may then retrieve your weapon from the security cage.
1. don't use too much soap! separate lights and darks and wash whites in their own load with a small amount of bleach. please never wash a white with a dark. (this is something that *some* of us have trouble remembering/caring about)
2. if you have something you want to stay nice, wash it on the gentle cycle and use a gentle soap like woolite. you can either let it dry for a couple of minutes on low and then take it out and air dry it or you can skip the dryer altogether and let it air dry--this will save the fabric feel and color. (this is also good if you have a pair of tighter jeans, you can wash them and stretch them while they're damp and let air dry)
3. iron with a spray bottle of water, if it's a cotton shirt do the front and collar last--it won't re-wrinkle as you manipulate the fabric around the ironing board.
4. iron wool pants on the coolest setting (the iron-setting) between trips to the dry cleaner--and turned inside-out will be more kind to the fabric, too--but experts say that using a pressing cloth between the iron and the fabric to avoid those horrible shiny-iron-marks example: http://www.sewingplace.com/browseproducts/Couture-Press-Cloth.HTML
5. also, i avoid washing towels of any sort (rugs, too) with anything that i'll be wearing--those little bits of fuzz never seem to come off the clothes and it's one of those things that just bug me (additionally, i like to buy only white towels/sheets so i can, like a hotel, bleach them all to super white when they get a little dirty). what's nicer than a crisp white cotton 500+ thread count sheet set? not much i say.
lastly, wash nicer things in cold, blacks will stay black in cold... i get a little weird about faded blacks/blacks that don't match.
*now i may lose my bro card!
Mister Bent
02-20-2010, 10:38 PM
After that awesome laundry advice, I can't wait for the cooking portion of this thread.
Queerasfck
02-20-2010, 10:42 PM
After that awesome laundry advice, I can't wait for the cooking portion of this thread.
Ummm dude you should know by now. The lady doesn't cook.
I'mOneToo
02-20-2010, 10:44 PM
and we've already been advised on the cleaning and transplanting :)
Ummm dude you should know by now. The lady doesn't cook.
Mister Bent
02-20-2010, 10:45 PM
and we've already been advised on the cleaning and transplanting :)
What else is there?
I'm guessing, car pool routine, trash and recycling.
AtLast
02-20-2010, 10:52 PM
LOL She sounds great!
Pretty quick on the draw!! LOL! This did totally crack me up. Wish I did have a cape!!! Would have really been great to show up with one on.
:supermanbooth: Hummmm... note to self... look for a Superman cape at the thrift store...
Mister Bent
02-20-2010, 11:01 PM
Applies equally well to butches of whatever gender identity.
Jamie Oliver believes that women should abstain from sex with their husbands or boyfriends to punish them if they refuse to cook.
“Men are driven by sex,” the celebrity chef said this weekend at the annual Hay-on-Wye festival. “So the best way for women to get their men into the kitchen would be to stop having sex with them until they start to cook.”
I know you want to read more (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/article3999406.ece).
Dylan
02-20-2010, 11:09 PM
Applies equally well to butches of whatever gender identity.
Jamie Oliver believes that women should abstain from sex with their husbands or boyfriends to punish them if they refuse to cook.
“Men are driven by sex,” the celebrity chef said this weekend at the annual Hay-on-Wye festival. “So the best way for women to get their men into the kitchen would be to stop having sex with them until they start to cook.”
I know you want to read more (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/article3999406.ece).
Who's Jamie Oliver?
And why should I care what this person says?
I Don't Understand,
Dylan...not being snarky, just lost
ETA: Just read back in the thead...still lost, but more caught up
Dylan
02-20-2010, 11:12 PM
Mahhh Woman and I went to dinner tonight
While I was rifling through my purse looking for my lip wand, Mahhh Woman says to me, "Oh my god, you sift through your purse like my sister"
I Felt Completely <insert zombie face here>,
Dylan...knows y'all feel Mahhh Pain
Mister Bent
02-20-2010, 11:19 PM
Who's Jamie Oliver?
And why should I care what this person says?
I Don't Understand,
Dylan...not being snarky, just lost
ETA: Just read back in the thead...still lost, but more caught up
Oh yeah, me too. I have no idea what I'm doing.
It's the overwhelming influsion of (natural) testosterone that causes the hair to grow to alarming proportions on my knuckles and big toe.
apretty
02-20-2010, 11:51 PM
Mahhh Woman and I went to dinner tonight
While I was rifling through my purse looking for my lip wand, Mahhh Woman says to me, "Oh my god, you sift through your purse like my sister"
I Felt Completely <insert zombie face here>,
Dylan...knows y'all feel Mahhh Pain
could you post a picture of your purse?
AtLast
02-21-2010, 12:44 AM
I'm thrilled to see I'm not the only one with a purse..... and this is one silly thread!
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