"straight" women and Butches.

[Merlin]

What is the fascination ?

[Merlin]

Is it easier for them to go for a butch,because visually they can maybe have the best of both worlds ?

Male looks,female anatomy ?

[Soon]

Is it easier for them to go for a butch,because visually they can maybe have the best of both worlds ?

Male looks,female anatomy ?

For me: Female masculinity is hot.

It's not about the *best of both worlds*--it is about being aware of one's desires--and that goes both ways for butches as well as the femmes...and all people, no?

[Merlin]

June (loving the name) I know love takes all shapes and forms,what I wonder is for a straight or supposedly straight woman is a butch a way to explore their sexuality with someone who visually looks male so as not to give the game away ..

[Merlin]

I don't know. Go ask a straight woman. ;)

Am seeing one .. Although I think I have blurred her straight lines out :sunglass:

[Soon]

June (loving the name) I know love takes all shapes and forms,what I wonder is for a straight or supposedly straight woman is a butch a way to explore their sexuality with someone who visually looks male so as not to give the game away ..

I don't know about that....giving "the game away"?....When I dated butches, it was quite obvious we were both women regardless of how they identified.

If anything, we were more noticeable and immediately considered lesbian/queer by the general public.

[Merlin]

I don't know about that....giving "the game away"?....When I dated butches, it was quite obvious we were both women regardless of how they identified.

If anything, we were more noticeable and immediately considered lesbian/queer by the general public.


What about if she passes and is perceived to be male ?

[Soon]

What about if she passes and is perceived to be male ?

never happened

[Merlin]

never happened

Is that because you date Butches who don't pass ?

[Soon]

I don't know about that....giving "the game away"?....When I dated butches, it was quite obvious we were both women regardless of how they identified.

If anything, we were more noticeable and immediately considered lesbian/queer by the general public.

Addendum: I should have written, it was obvious we were both "female born" as some did not ID as women.

[Thinker]

What is the fascination ?

I don't know. Go ask a straight woman. ;)

I'm with June......except I'd say you would have to ask each individual straight woman what her specific interest and/or fascination and/or attraction is.

There's no possible way for anyone here (or anywhere) to provide a definitive answer to that question. Anything anyone offers is purely and merely speculation.

*shrug*

[The_Lady_Snow]

It could be "straight" is The only label she knows to identify with, sexual curiosity could be what she is free to do. Heteronorm is what is continually shoved in our faces vía media, religion, culturally. Then again I'm one to believe we're all sexually fluid until sexual standards are fed to us.

[Quintease]

I realise this is a bit off topic, but I've seen women go completely gaga over my bf when they find out he's trans ? What is it that they are looking for I wonder, how do they imagine he'd be different to any other guy?

I've never been butch but I have attracted a fair amount of straight women in my youth, so I'm not so weirded out by the straight girl/butch thing. I figure it's the woman-thing that attracts them, rather than any particular ID, just like some women like feminine men and some like masculine, so what you like tends to cross genders. I don't think it's necessarily a 'queer' attraction however, as straight doesn't mean narrow. If they were all porn would be the same, all kink would be the same and they'd all wear the same kind of underwear ... oh wait!

[Quintease]

What about if she passes and is perceived to be male ?

Actually I did know one lesbian who frequently passed and so pulled many a very surprised and intrigued straight woman.

[Merlin]

Actually I did know one lesbian who frequently passed and so pulled many a very surprised and intrigued straight woman.


Me I am an honourable butch,I couldn't take advantage of an unknowing straight woman.

All my ex's have previously been straight and knew the score with me, I guess an unscrupulous butch could take advantage of a straight woman's vulnerabilities ??

[Merlin]

What group June ? I will have a peek.

[NorCalStud]

I think it is the butchfemme dance most often. That energy exists in the atmosphere. It is a dance. There is all kine dancin....I have done alotta alotta that dancin. The straight women are saying they love and admire butch energy. They are attracted to those who are themselves regardless of societal pressure. Rebels and freedom are archetypical of strength. These are just words with maybe some illumimation. I always ask straight women why they wanna be with me...it is always desire.

[Quintease]

This could be fetish-ization (What is the real word I am looking for?)

I suspected as much. It's a bit rubbish, sleeping with someone just to add to your life experience, though I guess it could be fun if you didn't mind being objectified..

[Merlin]

Like June put,sometimes we see things differently this side of the pond .. It doesn't make your thoughts or our thoughts any less topical.

[Martina]

Some of them are probably straight, and some are not. Like dykes who fuck men. Some may be developing a different sexual orientation, and some are just turned on by a guy or guys. We have no way to know.

i think it's only decent of you to assume that her motivations are that she likes you and wants to fuck you. Why interrogate her motivations unless she has given you reason to doubt them? Clearly you have dated straight women before. Is something about this one making you have doubts?

[Strappie]

June (loving the name) I know love takes all shapes and forms,what I wonder is for a straight or supposedly straight woman is a butch a way to explore their sexuality with someone who visually looks male so as not to give the game away ..

I have a few friends that are living the straight life. However they date women. Most of these friends date other femmes it's just who they are attracted to.

One of my good friends is a Married lesbian as she calls it. She is married to an amazing man and she has a girlfriend whom is also fem. This partnership works for them.

Doesn't matter it's the preference of each person as to what they like.

[Strappie]

I suspected as much. It's a bit rubbish, sleeping with someone just to add to your life experience, though I guess it could be fun if you didn't mind being objectified..

Someone... PLEASE OBJECTIFY ME.... lmao!

[Corkey]

Lets put a couple of misconceptions to rest shall we..
Male does not nor has never as far as I know been about being Butch. Butch is a 3d gender, except when it isn't. Not ALL Butches LOOK masculine, nor do ALL Femmes LOOK feminine, except when they do and if they want to.

You have some kind of messed up generalizations going on here from your posts that perhaps you should do some reading on this site to get some since of where these thoughts are coming from.

Again welcome to The Planet, and I hope you will explore not just the things that make us different, but those that make us a community.

[Heart]

Whenever I see a thread about "straight women and butches" -- it makes me twitch. (Haven't read the posts - so nothing personal.)

[Mr.Nobody]

I think a more fitting question would be...what is YOUR fascination with straight women? I mean...with a world full of beautiful queer, gay, femme, lesbian, girls, grrls (and any other id's I may have left out).

[blush]

I think a more fitting question would be...what is YOUR fascination with straight women? I mean...with a world full of beautiful queer, gay, femme, lesbian, girls, grrls (and any other id's I may have left out).

Ah yes. And does that straight girl see you for who you are? Will she walk down the street with you when it's not comfortable. Will she take off her heels and beat the living shit out of anyone that messes with ya'll? Will she walk through your life with you?

This thread feels like a shit-stirring thread. Haven't we done this one before?:|

[Martina]

If the butch thinks it's cool cause s/he's converting or taking women away from men, it's squicky. Otherwise, who cares? If people find each other, i am all for it.

A lot of femmes -- and butches -- were once straight.

i guess it is weird to say one has only dated straight women. Maybe the butch lives in the middle of no where or somethin. Who knows.

[blush]

If the butch thinks it's cool cause s/he's converting or taking women away from men, it's squicky. Otherwise, who cares? If people find each other, i am all for it.

A lot of femmes -- and butches -- were once straight.

i guess it is weird to say one has only dated straight women. Maybe the butch lives in the middle of no where or somethin. Who knows.

I came out late. A lot of people come out late. I wouldn't say I was ever straight. And it is a very confusing time.

Perhaps I missed the intent of the thread? Are we talking about dating self-identifying straight women and why they are attracted to butches? Or are we talking about dating people who are questioning?

[AtLast]

I think a more fitting question would be...what is YOUR fascination with straight women? I mean...with a world full of beautiful queer, gay, femme, lesbian, girls, grrls (and any other id's I may have left out).

I agree with this. And I agree with what blush brings up about the fact that many of us (femmes & butches) went through questioning in our lives.

[Martina]

I came out late. A lot of people come out late. I wouldn't say I was ever straight. And it is a very confusing time.

Perhaps I missed the intent of the thread? Are we talking about dating self-identifying straight women and why they are attracted to butches? Or are we talking about dating people who are questioning?

i was probably always a dyke too, but i had no idea for a while. My first naughty dream was about a woman, but i ignored a lot of clues. If anyone had asked me if i was straight back in the day, i would have said yes. i would not have ID'd as questioning.

Basically it's not clear to me why this butch is asking the question. It almost seems as if s/he's bragging. Dating a straight woman is not a bad thing in itself though. And no one has a right to tell a straight person s/he is not straight even if they fuck same sex now and again. It's the same with dykes.

i personally would date a straight woman if she floated my boat although that wasn't always true. Straight people are less narrow than they used to be, seems like. i certainly date and/or serve bisexual women.

i don't know. It does seem like a pointless thread just asking us to make some of the usual comments.

[Gayla]

Off the top of my head, I don't recall the topic being discussed on this site before and even if it has, the OP is a new member and might not be aware that the conversation has taken place before in our community.

I have known many butches who date straight women, including a few who will only date women who ID as straight. I have dated, and had LTRs with, straight women. I can't speak for them, but in my experience the draw was probably a combination of several different things including the taboo factor and the "best of both worlds" factor.

On my end, it was never about intentionally seeking out straight women, it was just something that happened in the same way that I have met, dated and have had relationships with any other person.

[Merlin]

Oh dear,

It seems this has gone a bit twisted with people jumping on the defensive.

This is a discussion board is it not?

Hmmm maybe I shouldn't ask questions that seemed to have hit a nerve ..

My bad .. Maybe the pond is too big and we won't connect.

Haven't been on the scene for a long time so I don't know of all the genders,id's etc.

And it's not a shit stirring thread .. Nor was I asking because I get kicks out of turning straight women.

I date them because they the gay pond in which we all fish over here is tiny,itsmore of a puddle.

Think of the spider gram on the l word , America has a huge lake in which you fish.

Seems some folk like to jump on newbies .. This is why some forums are cliquey.

[Merlin]

Oh and for the record ..

I don't know any Americans, I have never been to America .. I thought this might be a good place to break the ice.

Maybe I shouldn't paddle into fast waters without a canoe or paddle.

[Camo Eagle]

What is the fascination ?

I guess I never realized that there was a fascination. Is it done a lot in your area? (you may have already addressed it by saying you have a "small dating pool" in your area)


Oh dear,

It seems this has gone a bit twisted with people jumping on the defensive.

This is a discussion board is it not?

Hmmm maybe I shouldn't ask questions that seemed to have hit a nerve ..

My bad .. Maybe the pond is too big and we won't connect.

Haven't been on the scene for a long time so I don't know of all the genders,id's etc.

And it's not a shit stirring thread .. Nor was I asking because I get kicks out of turning straight women.

I date them because they the gay pond in which we all fish over here is tiny,itsmore of a puddle.

Think of the spider gram on the l word , America has a huge lake in which you fish.

Seems some folk like to jump on newbies .. This is why some forums are cliquey.

Merlin, I dont think its anything personal against you. Its just the norm on these sites for some to be defensive. I see it as being from many places. It may be from someones past bad exp, lives, psychological make up, circumstances, personality, etc.
On this side of the pond, some will even argue over "agreeing to disagree". LOL For the most part you can have a good discussion.
After youve been around a while, you will just learn to ignore some, and engage w/ others.
It may just take everyone a while to get used to the cultural diffs..
Do stay and feel welcomed.

[Merlin]

^ thank you I appreciate that.

[Medusa]

Hey Merlin -

It's not really that the forums are all that "cliquey" but I do think people on these boards are super protective of the Queer space and are pretty watchful for the glorification of dating straight women. (not saying you are doing that)
In years past, many Femmes (and Butches too!) have felt erased and devalued when folks talk about dating straight women as if it is the apex of all things hot. Especially in a space where Femmes want to be seen and appreciated (because let's face it, we're mostly invisible out in the world)

I do think there are cultural differences, especially in a microcasm such as this site where many folks have been having these discussions for years. Either way, I'm interested in what you have to say!

Medusa

[JustJo]

Hi Merlin, and welcome to the site :rrose:

I think it's a question of defining "straight"...

Would a truly, 100% straight woman be interested in having a relationship with a butch? I think not.

It might be a matter of where you found her on her own personal growth curve. Most people (including myself) would have called me straight until I was in my 40s. For a variety of reasons, including some I wasn't even aware of myself for a long time, I pushed down my own sexuality and went along with what I was "supposed" to do and want.

It took me a long time to come out, even to myself.

Maybe that's true for them too...

[EnderD_503]

Oh dear,

It seems this has gone a bit twisted with people jumping on the defensive.

This is a discussion board is it not?

Hmmm maybe I shouldn't ask questions that seemed to have hit a nerve ..

My bad .. Maybe the pond is too big and we won't connect.

Haven't been on the scene for a long time so I don't know of all the genders,id's etc.

And it's not a shit stirring thread .. Nor was I asking because I get kicks out of turning straight women.

I date them because they the gay pond in which we all fish over here is tiny,itsmore of a puddle.

Think of the spider gram on the l word , America has a huge lake in which you fish.

Seems some folk like to jump on newbies .. This is why some forums are cliquey.

I don't think this has anything to do with British prespectives vs. American ones. I haven't been here as long as some and even I've noticed that every once in a while a new member will come in and ask about straight women and butches. Seemed to happen every so often on the bf site too. Usually in those topics a lot of heteronormative stereotypes are thrown around that are usually more a result of people's exposure/inexposure to certain gender issues that really have nothing to do with nationality, since there have been Americans that have come in and talked about it too.

I don't see it as a specific fascination. People like who they like, and I don't think we can generalise about butches and straight women any more than any other queer group and straight people.

[Chazz]

Oh dear,

It seems this has gone a bit twisted with people jumping on the defensive.

This is a discussion board is it not?

Hmmm maybe I shouldn't ask questions that seemed to have hit a nerve ..

My bad .. Maybe the pond is too big and we won't connect.

Haven't been on the scene for a long time so I don't know of all the genders,id's etc.

And it's not a shit stirring thread .. Nor was I asking because I get kicks out of turning straight women.

I date them because they the gay pond in which we all fish over here is tiny,itsmore of a puddle.

Think of the spider gram on the l word , America has a huge lake in which you fish.

Seems some folk like to jump on newbies .. This is why some forums are cliquey.

Hiya, Merlin

Nice to meet you. I'm an Irish expatriate. There are cultural differences, indeed.

Whatever you do, don't start talking about willets, thews or lallies. Someone's bound to call a sharpy.

I've never slept with a straight women. If they slept with me, they ain't.

Sláinte, Chazz :balloon:

[Apocalipstic]

Merlin, welcome to BFP! :)

Please don't think you are being picked on, a lot of people just read the title of a thread and then jump....it happens to all us! Keeps us on our toes!

Butches and straight women? It takes all kinds. For some, yes it may be easier to be seen with a Butch who passes, and some may not really be straight, just don't know they are queer yet?

Best to you and don't get discouraged here! :) I have visited London several times and communication is a bit different, but definitely workable and fun!

[TickledPink]

I cringe when I hear the word "straight woman" only because I'm sick of everyone assuming I am. I've heard it over, and over, "but you look straight." :| WTF does straight look like????

As far as butches with straight women, femmes with straight women, straight women with straight women, whatever floats your ducky! :rubberducky:

Welcome to BFP!

[Merlin]

Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.

[Merlin]

For the record am fed up of being a joke to the mainstream lesbian community,it's amazing what homophobia is rife in the gay community xx

[Jesse]

Hi Merlin,

I believe I saw someone else make this same suggestion to you that I am making now. Often times, it is best to check out the forum, read the various threads, and get a feel for the general terminology used, mentality, personalities etc. on the forum.

I've witnessed a few come charging in on forums before starting thread after thread without realizing that they may be speaking in ways that are offensive to the group at large and then they get their feelings hurt and are embarrassed because the group takes them to task. Slow down, give everyone an opportunity to get to know you, and you us.

[Merlin]

Noted.

Like I said ice breaker.

[EnderD_503]

Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.

I think the same or similar can be said for most places in the world. The bf community as well as other less visible communities in the LGBT spectrum have definitely benefited a lot from internet communication.

Since it came up at the end of this post as well, you might find that what many people (whether b/f or others within the spectrum who take interest in gender issues and how sexism and heteronormativity can be damaging) will take issue with the equation of masculinity with being male. For example, in your first post you ask whether "straight women" might like butches as having the "best of both worlds" with "male looks" and "female anatomy." I think that kind of equation of masculine = male is something some might react negatively to, and admit it got a bit of an eyeroll from me as well. A butch woman who sees masculinity as unique from male probably isn't going to consider her own masculinity a "male look." Same with others who might id as genderqueer, third gender or who generally consider sexuality and gender as fluid rather restricted to a specific set of binaries.

Like others have suggested, it might be best for you to do a bit of reading, not just on this forum but in general on gender issues within the queer spectrum. Not sure if you've read Judith Halberstam's Female Masculinity but a good briefer on the subject if you're interested.

[Apocalipstic]

Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.

The BF community is not that great here either, we find each other through the web here too.

For the record am fed up of being a joke to the mainstream lesbian community,it's amazing what homophobia is rife in the gay community xx

It really is sad I agree.

I do have to say I have been to London 7 or 8 times, and never seen a Butch on the street (and I look lol), which I do in my wayyyy smaller city here in the US. No, I have not been to the Lesbian bar, was not sure what the Femme reception would be like. It's gotten better here over the past few years, but one never knows.

Yes, it becomes tiresome to be looked at as a freak by mainstream Lesbians. My "straight" friends seem to understand way better than my Gay friends.

[Quintease]

I don't see the issue with us talking about straight people, I mean, they talk about us. Every young female star that matters is talking about going bi and its 'cool' now for straight men to snog. Talking about straight people is no.big.deal.

Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes. I don't assume any straight woman who sleeps with a femme, boi or butch is secretly on the verge of coming out, sometimes they just want a bit of variety.

I was a straight girl once and slept with loads of boys, my first real 'lesbian' crush was with a bisexual girl who preferred boys. I ended up with a 60% lesbian and she ended up with a boy, yet I still wonder why straight women see lesbians as being under the radar.

As for the looking straight thing *sigh* What does that even mean?? I look straight to straight women, bisexual to straight men and bi/gay/queer/straight to lesbians and gay men. I figure people just see what they wanna see.

[Daktari]

Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.

Where do you live mate? I think the bf community isn't as bad or as small as you're painting it here. I have loads of bf mates... ok so I don't see them all the time and keep in touch via the bf sites and facebook but they are there if you seek them out. I'm lucky I guess in that I live an hour or so away from one of the massive (Northern) cities (Manchester) where there's a bf and kink community to go play out with whenever I want.

Not sure why you're not finding bf folks, have you signed up to the UK bf sites - of which there are 3 to my knowledge.

apocalipstic - sometimes I feel my straight male mates understand where I'm coming from much better than my mainstream lezzer mates too.

[Quintease]

Female Masculinity but a good briefer on the subject if you're interested.

Oh. I would add to read this with an open mind! S/he has some really debatable things to say about FTM's and femmes.

[Apocalipstic]

I don't see the issue with us talking about straight people, I mean, they talk about us. Every young female star that matters is talking about going bi and its 'cool' now for straight men to snog. Talking about straight people is no.big.deal.

Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes. I don't assume any straight woman who sleeps with a femme, boi or butch is secretly on the verge of coming out, sometimes they just want a bit of variety.

I was a straight girl once and slept with loads of boys, my first real 'lesbian' crush was with a bisexual girl who preferred boys. I ended up with a 60% lesbian and she ended up with a boy, yet I still wonder why straight women see lesbians as being under the radar.

As for the looking straight thing *sigh* What does that even mean?? I look straight to straight women, bisexual to straight men and bi/gay/queer/straight to lesbians and gay men. I figure people just see what they wanna see.

I love the word "shag", makes me grin! ")

Some of us look like straight women and have been told so all our adult lives. I get told I look like I teach Sunday School. lol. No matter what I wear or do I look really feminine.

Now, I do get your point about how does gay or lesbian look! A lesbian must look like me, since I am one! lol But, its usually a shock to people and I have to tell them in weird awkward ways like "pass the salsa, I'm a Lesbian".

ps. no prob talking about straight people from me lol

[Quintease]

How does gay or lesbian look?

http://aviscogitations.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/bieber-lesbian.jpg :tease:

[Apocalipstic]

http://aviscogitations.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/bieber-lesbian.jpg :tease:

We can look any and every way!

But some of us get told we look straight non-stop. It is annoying. lol.

Maybe if I got the Bieber haircut and hat? thought at 47, it would probably look silly on me.

[EnderD_503]

Oh. I would add to read this with an open mind! S/he has some really debatable things to say about FTM's and femmes.

In a Queer Time and Place: Transgender Bodies and Subcultural Lives is a great read in addition to Female Masculinity. It clarifies her current thoughts on some of those issues. She writes an awesome analysis of Boys Don't Cry and other trans films.

[Daywalker]

It's a Fascination ~ It's an Infatuation
:moonstars:

Women who identify as straight are not immune to attractions of all sorts.

Being attracted to someone does not mean ya wanna 'shag' em.

Appreciating the aesthetics of another Human Being; I just don't that because
I'm a biggo Queer ass, slow shuffling, Gender Neutral Butch ~ frosted
with Hippy and Sprinkled with cannabis n bubbles...that my instincts
automatically hone in only on the attractive
features of non-straight folks.
:thinking:

There are some purty Mens out there, I'm secure enough to let em know
that *insert evil 'hood of mah truck' twinkle in the eyes*. Don't mean I wanna
fuck em, unless they have been bad and bend over the Impala hood.

:grindevil:

heehee.

Straight women can be attracted to a Butch,
without equating them to the category of straight Male.

Also...doesn't mean they wanna 'shag or be shagged'.

Hell I forgot where I was going with all this.

:|

:daywalker:

[Apocalipstic]

True!

I am a Lesbian, but I do think some men are attractive.

[Quintease]

True!

I am a Lesbian, but I do think some men are attractive.

Me too, particularly when I'm ovulating (tick, tock and all that..) They have to be very pretty to catch my eye however.

[Merlin]

Never had any sort of clock counting down internally.
:cigar2: sorry if anyone has been offended ..

I am a stubborn ass Aries .. Gob goes into gear and brain still asleep.

[Apocalipstic]

Me too, particularly when I'm ovulating (tick, tock and all that..) They have to be very pretty to catch my eye however.

Very very very very very!

[DomnNC]

I truly find the dilemna over what one looks like to another quite humorous at times. Who the heck cares what you look like to anyone else, straight, queer, bi, trans, etcetcetc? Who cares? What ever happened in being secure enough in yourself to know what/who you are and to hell with what anyone else thinks? I personally don't give a heck what anyone comes to decide who/what I am by the way I look, I KNOW what I am, their opinion matters not, it doesn't concern me, they have nothing to do with my life. If they do have something to do with my life then they either accept me for who I am and who I say I am or they move the heck on, life is too short to worry over such trivial matters.

It's funny, my wife id'd as a soft butch before we got together, then we got together, then she realized that was not who she thought she was and she id'd as femme and changed her whole appearance (and not at my hedging either), then after we were together 6 months or so she came to me and told me she no longer id'd as a lesbian but as a "straight" woman in relation to who I am. That was her evolution, her chosen evolution. I loved her no matter how she id'd. We couldn't have cared less how anyone else saw us and pre-determined how we id'd. It simply isn't that important if you are secure in who you are and how you id, straight, queer, bi, trans, what have you. Just being the best you that you can be is the best revenge on society as a whole. Society doesn't define me, I do. So therefore I have no issue talking about straight, queer, trans, lesbian, etcetcetc.

But I know how you feel Merlin, lol, the lesbian scene around here totally ignore, reject me and I'm fine with that. When they come with their hand out I just laugh and go on.

[Quintease]

I truly find the dilemna over what one looks like to another quite humorous at times. Who the heck cares what you look like to anyone else, straight, queer, bi, trans, etcetcetc? Who cares? What ever happened in being secure enough in yourself to know what/who you are and to hell with what anyone else thinks?

It's called invisibility, and actually we wouldn't care, except it sucks.

[BullDog]

It isn't discussing straight people that's a sore point, it's being constantly measured against them that is. Femmes do not want to be compared with straight women, many butches do not want to be compared with straight males. Femmes are frequently not taken seriously as lesbians and/or queers. There is a big invisibility factor at play and also there have been many discussions over the years where some butches seem to think straight women are the ultimate prize- which leads to a lot of sore feelings, particularly when you combine that with the invisibility issues.

Also, if you really want to know why straight people feel certain ways, I do think you need to ask them.

Welcome to the site Merlin, you seem like a nice person. We need to listen to you and understand you better and hopefully you will see some of the other points being raised here as well.

[Martina]

i was in a cafe in Pacifica a week or so ago and overheard three adult daughters talking to their mother about gay folks. Apparently they were comparing who they had gotten in contact with from the past via facebook. And one of them had turned out to be a dyke. The mom said she always knew that the girl would become a lesbian because of how she looked and went on to add that the girl's sister had always been the more attractive one.

The daughters did not take that on, but they began discussing the whole choice vs. born that way issue. The daughters all thought gay people "couldn't help it." They were trying to convice mom not to want to spit right after she said the word gay or lesbian. Mom was hilarious. She didn't care if it is a choice or if we are born gay. She thinks we are ugly and gross (we flaunt our sexuality), and even if we "can't help it," we are to be avoided because . . . well yuck.

The daughters were all middle aged. i don't think they lived a life any different from their mother's. One said she is a housewife. But attitudes have changed.

Anyway, part of the reason i tell this is that that's what happens to us -- those who pass. We get to hear some really fun stuff.

And while mainstream lesbians might ignore us or want us to behave more conventionally, i think they have our backs more than people like this mom, who i have no doubt would not raise her voice if the day ever came again when we were loaded onto trains. . . .

[Toughy]

by Quintease <snip>
Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes.
<snip>

Where did you come up with this 75% gay number? I need way more information.

[Quintease]

Where did you come up with this 75% gay number? I need way more information.

Oh my god, my house is like a library! My bf cries every time he walks through the door as we're supposed to be moving in together next year....

The best book I've found on this (so far, but there are a few) is Sexual Fluidity. It basically backs up what a few studies have found (since Kinsey) that very few homosexuals consider themselves 100%, though men and women score differently.

[intrigue_in916]

[QUOTE=HowSoonIsNow;335284]For me: Female masculinity is hot.

It's not about the *best of both worlds*--it is about being aware of one's desires--and that goes both ways for butches as well as the femmes...and all people, no?[/QUOTE

I throughly agree that female masculinity is hott. I believe that a feminine lesbian compliments her masculine lesbian partner. Im quite frankly all the feminine woman i need.:rrose:

[intrigue_in916]

:It isn't discussing straight people that's a sore point, it's being constantly measured against them that is. Femmes do not want to be compared with straight women, many butches do not want to be compared with straight males. Femmes are frequently not taken seriously as lesbians and/or queers. There is a big invisibility factor at play and also there have been many discussions over the years where some butches seem to think straight women are the ultimate prize- which leads to a lot of sore feelings, particularly when you combine that with the invisibility issues.

Also, if you really want to know why straight people feel certain ways, I do think you need to ask them.

Welcome to the site Merlin, you seem like a nice person. We need to listen to you and understand you better and hopefully you will see some of the other points being raised here as well.
Im only invisible if I choose to be, I take myself seriously, when it counts most to me. People come to now this about me.
Im not an attention seeker, way to negative. I try not to invite negative in.Not saying that it doesnt happen. I've learned to show negative the way out. i dont feel that being a lesbian woman makes me a prize. im just me.:4femme:
.

[Nat]

There is so much I could say here, but it's late and I've already started over like 5 times. So here's an unorganized smattering:

Straight women can be fun as long as you don't fall in love with them and as long as they don't fall in love with you. At least, I've found them fun. :)

My partner has a long history of falling for straight women. She likes feminine women. Most of them have been straight. I'm the first femme she's been with. Heaven forbid we ever break up, but if we did, I'm pretty sure she'd keep dating femmes rather than going back to straight girls. I think it's pretty heart-wrenching to spend your life falling for women who will always be more interested in another gender than your own.

On a totally different note - I have known some butches who tend to measure/validate their masculinity by defining their partners as "straight" whether or not they actually are. As though straight women being interested in them gives them some sort of cachet. When I first came out, I dated a butch (briefly) who would have preferred to define me as straight in order to serve her own ego. It's hard to explain, but I've run into that attitude plenty.

[*Anya*]

Interesting question! I remember when I was in HS, I saw this short, very compact, masculine person I a letter jacket. She had a gaggle of girls around her. I Rember feeling very funny inside-I felt kind of anxious but didn't know why (I was 16). I asked who she was and my friend said, "oh that's Phil". I was fascinated by her. Still remember the moment I laid eyes on her having had no idea who or what she was. My journey to the femme I am today took me through my "straight" phase, my bi phase to the point where I could say honestly to myself, you were fascinated by Phil because you were always a lesbian attracted to butch women-coming out to myself just took a long time! That pull that I feel towards butch women I still can't explain: it just is! I personally think it is the ying and yang of it all, butches turn me on.

[dixie]

She thinks we are ugly and gross (we flaunt our sexuality), and even if we "can't help it," we are to be avoided because . . . well yuck.


I've always despised the phrase "flaunting our sexuality". I hear it a lot from folks. The joys of heterosexism I guess. They don't seem to realize that their sexuality is "flaunted" in every hand-holding couple, public and on-screen kisses, marriage, etc etc, even simple advertisements for restaurants showing straight couples having a romantic dinner. It's all flaunting, so to speak. Yet since they are of the favored sexuality, the "norm", it doesn't apply to them whether they are even aware of it or not.


I do agree with some of the things I've read in here, in regards to how we are categorized and measured/compared, according to our looks. As a femme, I do have that "pass" into the straight world. If I identify myself to others, depending on the setting, I do get that super annoying "you don't look queer" response. When I was younger and just getting into the local bar scene, I was usually mistaken as the "token straight girl" hanging out with the lesbians and drag queens. (Luckily, I've been around long enough now that they all know me for who I am lol) I think little things like this are a part of what makes me such a loud and proud individual regarding my queer identity.


I have also known a few butches who seemed to gravitate only towards straight women. Like Nat said, it would definitely seem to up the chances of heartbreak by pursuing these relationships or interests. I'm not quite sure what the fascination or attraction would be going into it, knowing that in most cases the outcome would be less than favorable. To each their own, though. We all have different preferences for attraction. Just look at the many attractions and dynamics within this community alone. :)

[chefhottie25]

Hi, Merlin -- Welcome to the Planet!

I maintain that if a straight woman gets with a Queer ID'd person, they aren't straight anymore. There has to be mutual desire for that to even happen.

:)

i have had a few encounters with "straight" women...but i wouldn't say that their experience with me made them no longer straight. i believe that orientation is defined by what gender you want to have as a partner. you know...those we choose to have actual relationships with. some people just like to experiment with sex...and when they do it doesn't mean that it changes how they identify.

[AtLast]

I find discussions about "straight" women to be more often code for beauty, usually some dominant cultural interpretation of what beauty is. And it always seems like in these discussions butch ends up as male. Also, the whole affiliational paradigm is set in motion- we (as in a general we) are only worth what we can be affiliated with not who we are as individuals. And straight is at the top of the spectrum as being the most attractive or beautiful. When we all know, femmes are the most attractive in every way! Mainly, femme is just so much more than a physical state to me. There is a whole different carriage and psyche by femmes as far as I'm concerned. A very unique state of being.

Makes me nuts.

I ended up with a "straight" married woman for 21 years. She was separated from her husband at the time we met. We did fall in love and shared a healthy relationship together. As a lesbian couple. I did have fears that I was an "experiment" and had to deal with that and just took the risk. I have to admit that for the first 10 years of our relationship there were difficulties with straight men hitting on her frequently. We also did not live in a totally queer world. In fact, we were fairly closeted during that time period (we were both quite young when we met and coupled). Although, as we grew as people, she really found more of herself as on the butch spectrum in many ways (obviously, I did as well). One of the reasons we broke up. But, in most cases of friends that dated and fell for "straight" women, the story did not end well.

I guess I have to look at this in terms of individuals. I just can't put all straight women (or men for that matter) in one box. If I do that, I am doing what the rest of society does to me.

Something else that is bothering me are the continued references to butches in the masculine in terms of things like ego. Actually, ego bothers me in and of itself. Femmes appear to have some of it going on themselves I have experienced with butches. I don't view myself in terms of any kind of masculine ego construct. I know that some butches identify as male, but not all.

On the other hand, mention of the kind of degradation that some femmes have felt around this, I am saddened by the phenomena that are being discussed as it feels so negative toward the butch-femme dynamic as well as to the many types of queer relationships we have throughout our entire dynamic.

[Darth Denkay]

What is the fascination ?

Seems as though a lot of good thoughts have been shared, although this thread had a bit of a rough start. One thing that struck me is that the initial post was very short, played off the thread title, and gave no context. I think that much of the roughness might have been avoided if the question had been fleshed out a bit more up front. This is not at all intended as a criticism of Merlin. We struggle with the intricacies of online communication frequently, and I think lack of context doesn't help.

[ruffryder]

I was with a straight woman for 3 years. I ID as transgender though and she saw me as a guy. Our relationship was that of girl/guy.

[Chazz]

Is it easier for them to go for a butch,because visually they can maybe have the best of both worlds ?

Male looks,female anatomy ?

Not the best of two worlds - a whole other galaxy. :)

[Chazz]

There is so much I could say here, but it's late and I've already started over like 5 times. So here's an unorganized smattering:

Straight women can be fun as long as you don't fall in love with them and as long as they don't fall in love with you. At least, I've found them fun. :)

My partner has a long history of falling for straight women. She likes feminine women. Most of them have been straight. I'm the first femme she's been with. Heaven forbid we ever break up, but if we did, I'm pretty sure she'd keep dating femmes rather than going back to straight girls. I think it's pretty heart-wrenching to spend your life falling for women who will always be more interested in another gender than your own.

On a totally different note - I have known some butches who tend to measure/validate their masculinity by defining their partners as "straight" whether or not they actually are. As though straight women being interested in them gives them some sort of cachet. When I first came out, I dated a butch (briefly) who would have preferred to define me as straight in order to serve her own ego. It's hard to explain, but I've run into that attitude plenty.

Some people just can't move beyond a dominant culture, gender paradigm.

Butches do it to other butches, too.

[Cole610]

I went to dinner with a "straight" woman from work last night.
After dinner we ended up at the river watching the big old blue moon rise.
I kissed her, she kissed me back. hehe.

[Tuff Stuff]

:cheerleader:


FEMMES,FEMMES,FEMMES

They make my heart go BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

:hk19:

[TruTexan]

:cheerleader:


FEMMES,FEMMES,FEMMES

They make my heart go BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

:hk19:

AMEN BROTHER, AMEN !

[Tuff Stuff]

I don't know.I guess some straight women are naturally drawn to anyone that looks and acts masculine...maybe being with me they did have the best of both worlds.With my current gf,i'd say the same could ring true...I was attracted to her femininity,even though she is not a femme...she's definitely a lesbian,though.

How come this statement makes me sad?...*shrugs*

[Jane Bond]

What is the fascination ?

I think it became chic to for straight women to have lesbian flings around the time Ellen DeGeneres came out, then Sex and the City had Samantha go through a phase with that gorgeous artist, Maria, played by Sonia Braga.
The scene where Maria ejaculated into Samantha's face was the funniest thing I'd seen all year.
Carrie made out with a woman (details evade me) and even Miranda tried it but it wasn't for her. In real life, however, she married a butch.
Back in the disco era, when sex was mostly recreational for many of us, I had a few flings with straight women. But once I matured and added a spiritual facet to sex and insisted that love be part of lovemaking (more often than not), I realized I was like a cat toy or an experiment for them, and it made me feel slightly used. Besides, I'm not a stone butch, so it was often unfulfilling after they had been satisfied.
I slept with a bisexual woman not long ago and it was not much fun. I kept worrying that she'd give me an STD or some rashy thing she got from a guy.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think it became chic to for straight women to have lesbian flings around the time Ellen DeGeneres came out, then Sex and the City had Samantha go through a phase with that gorgeous artist, Maria, played by Sonia Braga.
The scene where Maria ejaculated into Samantha's face was the funniest thing I'd seen all year.
Carrie made out with a woman (details evade me) and even Miranda tried it but it wasn't for her. In real life, however, she married a butch.
Back in the disco era, when sex was mostly recreational for many of us, I had a few flings with straight women. But once I matured and added a spiritual facet to sex and insisted that love be part of lovemaking (more often than not), I realized I was like a cat toy or an experiment for them, and it made me feel slightly used. Besides, I'm not a stone butch, so it was often unfulfilling after they had been satisfied.
I slept with a bisexual woman not long ago and it was not much fun. I kept worrying that she'd give me an STD or some rashy thing she got from a guy.

I think you need to actually read up on STDs. Hint: if you can catch an std frm a bisexual woman, she can catch an std from you. Extra hint: why aren't you having safe sex and instead blaming cooties on someone else's vajayjay?

[GeorgiaMa'am]

. . . I realized I was like a cat toy . . .
I'm sorry, this made me laugh my butt off!

I know what you mean though. I've had a few experiences where the other person was my cat toy as well, although we both knew what the deal was and it was all good.

[Jane Bond]

I think you need to actually read up on STDs. Hint: if you can catch an std frm a bisexual woman, she can catch an std from you. Extra hint: why aren't you having safe sex and instead blaming cooties on someone else's vajayjay?


This particular woman had been quite sexually active the long time I had known her, and in fact she had been treated for STDS several years ago in the past. Her behavior made me suspicious of most bisexuals.
I'm not a blamer; I take responsibility for my own actions. I have never had an STD of any kind because I have been careful.
Statements like, "..."instead of blaming cooties on someone else's vajayay" and telling me "what I need to read up on..."
seemed awfully judgmental considering I don't know you and you don't know me, what I do, or what I studied in college.
I thought about replying for quite a while, because I'm not looking to make enemies or get into cat fights on the site.
However, reading your comment again weeks later, it still seems like you were being snippy & presumptuous.
Can we start from scratch or would you prefer to scratch my face in that catfight I mentioned?

[Gemme]

I slept with a bisexual woman not long ago and it was not much fun. I kept worrying that she'd give me an STD or some rashy thing she got from a guy.

This particular woman had been quite sexually active the long time I had known her, and in fact she had been treated for STDS several years ago in the past. Her behavior made me suspicious of most bisexuals.
I'm not a blamer; I take responsibility for my own actions. I have never had an STD of any kind because I have been careful.

...snip...

I thought about replying for quite a while, because I'm not looking to make enemies or get into cat fights on the site.
However, reading your comment again weeks later, it still seems like you were being snippy & presumptuous.
Can we start from scratch or would you prefer to scratch my face in that catfight I mentioned?

Sooo...were you being factitious in your first post? Or just being snippy?

You say you had a less than delightful sexual experience with someone that you know has previously been treated for an STD and that you were concerned about catching something from her. Using that scenario, any sex in which you would be concerned about contracting an STD means that that person you are with is also capable of contracting something from you. That is the opposite of safe sex and belies the level of care you profess to take.

I can't imagine that anyone is ready to pounce and engage you in a catfight but you've got to be prepared to hear responses to what you put out into the Universe.

[imperfect_cupcake]

It means if you can catch something from her, you aren't using safe sex, and as far as she knows she could catch something from you too.

You didn't say "this particular bisexual woman" you said "I slept with a bisexual woman"

Those are two very different sentences. If the person's sexuality did not have context in terms of getting an STD, why would you say her sexuality? Would you say "I slept with a lesbian and I was afraid of getting an STD"? Probably not, you'd likely leave her sexuality out of the sentence.

Using the word "bisexual" to connote a link to "std" is common.

Which is why I sniped. I personally think you are being slippery and disingenuous because the way you have constructed your sentences seems to point to STD and bisexual being linked.

And now you are trying to wiggle out of it.

I'm just some snipey biatch on the net so, I'm sure you don't give a toss, but you asked, so I'm giving you an answer.

If you are in a situation wherein you can catch an STD off someone, whether they have one or not, you are NOT having safe sex. You are saying "ew this scary bisexual coulda given me an std" and my point is "dude. Self responsibility. Have safe sex and you can't blame anyone." Get me, yet?

If you are confused as to the various different ways to protect yourself from various different STDs with female-female sexual relations, I can post a link.

[storyspinner70]

This thread initially set me on edge...cause as everyone knows, if you're looking to be offended by something, you'll find it...and sure enough, offense happened...lol...lots of it...

I think why I have a problem with questions like this is because I apparently don't look at sexuality the same way as some other people...I firmly believe that people live all along the Kinsey scale and their location may change considerably through their life.

I also believe that a "truly" straight woman isn't going to date a woman, butch or no. My friend is a truly straight woman - if you feel nothing but embarrassment and awkwardness when another woman is face down in your vagina, you're straight as an arrow. She gave it a shot (mostly for her husband), but it wasn't her thing. A lot of others can't even muster the interest to go that far. I've been working on this one cute little thing for months to no avail. My and my butch's attention boosts her self-esteem and helps her feel important but there's zero chance her porch door will ever swing our way.

That being said, I think (luckily for us) quite a few people are spread further along the Kinsey scale. My best friend in my 30s had previously had only relationships with men, but it took me roughly twice to get her naked. She was definitely not on the far end of the Scale.

On one hand, it's very important to be respectful of how people self-identify...if they do at all. On the other hand, you also need to realize that straight, and any other label, may not be the same to all people.

That's why I think questions like this put me so on edge. Too many generalizations when there are untold amounts of different variations of sexuality and desire. It's like trying to take people off the Scale and shove them into five or six boxes. Here, you're straight. Oh, you...you're Trans; you go here...Ooooh a bi girl; get in this one...etc etc

I think that's one of the main things that causes such confusion. We don't allow people to step outside their boxes at all without judgement and the need to find out exactly why they don't fit in these limited descriptions of what sexuality is. So, I don't know...that "straight" girl you're banging? Probably not as straight as you're imagining. And there's not a thing in the world wrong with that.

[Jane Bond]

It means if you can catch something from her, you aren't using safe sex, and as far as she knows she could catch something from you too.

You didn't say "this particular bisexual woman" you said "I slept with a bisexual woman"

Those are two very different sentences. If the person's sexuality did not have context in terms of getting an STD, why would you say her sexuality? Would you say "I slept with a lesbian and I was afraid of getting an STD"? Probably not, you'd likely leave her sexuality out of the sentence.

Using the word "bisexual" to connote a link to "std" is common.

Which is why I sniped. I personally think you are being slippery and disingenuous because the way you have constructed your sentences seems to point to STD and bisexual being linked.

And now you are trying to wiggle out of it.

I'm just some snipey biatch on the net so, I'm sure you don't give a toss, but you asked, so I'm giving you an answer.

If you are in a situation wherein you can catch an STD off someone, whether they have one or not, you are NOT having safe sex. You are saying "ew this scary bisexual coulda given me an std" and my point is "dude. Self responsibility. Have safe sex and you can't blame anyone." Get me, yet?

If you are confused as to the various different ways to protect yourself from various different STDs with female-female sexual relations, I can post a link.



Okay I, want to clear this up once and for all. Because I was worried about contracting possible STDs from this one particular bisexual woman, we had safe sex and even then I was still feeling a little hinky about it so I stopped engaging altogether with this woman. I don't need to learn more about STD's or safe sex. I am not slippery, disingenuous or wiggling.
:seeingstars:

[MsTinkerbelly]

I read an interesting study, which I have been trying to find to post here. I'll keep looking, but the premise of the study was that women are either bi-sexual or gay....rarely ever simply straight.

I have heard this before so the theory is not a new one, but the study was a very interesting read.

[homoe]

I'll look forward to reading it when you find it!
I worked in retail because I'm a people person and really enjoy interacting with others! I am very obviously! I mean if you looked up the word lesbian no doubt you'd see my picture next to the definition! When straight women sort of 'cozyed up to me" I always dismissed it as the curiosity factor! I thought getting involved with a straight woman was nothing more than a recipe for disaster! Maybe I shouldn't of dismissed it so fast after all.

[Angeltoes]

I have been attracted to butches ( I just called them 'tomboys' before I knew what a butch was) since puberty. Before puberty I was attracted to boys in a sort of general way. Meaning, I never imagined being naked with a boy...lol. My romantic daydreams played out something like a Disney movie. I have dated a few men in my life. Does that mean I'm bi? Not even a little bit. Life doesn't come with instructions, ya know...People are complex. I hate how we pigeonhole each other...

I'm still almost exclusively attracted to butches though I 'notice' hot femmes as well. I just don't want to date a femme. My main femme crushes are straight celebrities like the UFC girls. It's strange for me because I'm a total pacifist, but some of them make me a little giddy. I don't know why...

[MsTinkerbelly]

I'll look forward to reading it when you find it!
I worked in retail because I'm a people person and really enjoy interacting with others! I am very obviously! I mean if you looked up the word lesbian no doubt you'd see my picture next to the definition! When straight women sort of 'cozyed up to me" I always dismissed it as the curiosity factor! I thought getting involved with a straight woman was nothing more than a recipe for disaster! Maybe I shouldn't of dismissed it so fast after all.

I'm having trouble linking and copying....google "women are either bi-sexual or gay" it was a study published in the UK on November 5th.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Actually, the original research said no such thing. The science reporting took info and ran with it. I thought it sounded really suspicious so I read the actual research and not the reporting of it.
It's not what people are hyping it to be.

[DapperButch]

I thought Kinsey cleared all this up in the 1940's, no?

Almost EVERYBODY is a lil' gay...

[Gemme]

I thought Kinsey cleared all this up in the 1940's, no?

Almost EVERYBODY is a lil' gay...

V4SlgE1Eew0

[homoe]

Bumping this thread as I recall recent posts regarding co-works coming on to them !

[Lyte]

Nope, no straight or bi women for me. <-- I'm aware that's not always a popular position to take. For some it's viewed as prejudicial. Shrug! Even so... I figure relationships between lesbian women are dramatic enough... I don't feel the need to feed that fire with additional dynamics.

Last year I learned a two new words... hetroflexable and homoflexible. Meh?! :o

[JDeere]

Nope, no straight or bi women for me. <-- I'm aware that's not always a popular position to take. For some it's viewed as prejudicial. Shrug! Even so... I figure relationships between lesbian women are dramatic enough... I don't feel the need to feed that fire with additional dynamics.

Last year I learned a two new words... hetroflexable and homoflexible. Meh?! :o

Can you elaborate on additional dynamics?

[Lyte]

Sure :)

Let me preface first by saying the best advise pops ever gave me was that life was too hard, too fast, too rough... too whatever... for anyone to rely on learning just from one's own mistakes. Better to learn too from the mistakes made by those around you. So...

When I was in my 20's I, like many of my butch friends, we were primarily interested in looks... gay ... bi... straight... didn't matter. If they were cute, if they were hot, we were game! I dated a few straight and bi women ... and it always turned into one mess or another. Within a few days... or a few weeks... I'd hear...

1. Oh no, I have a boyfriend!
2. You're sweet... but... umm.... I'm gonna go back to my boyfriend.
3. I just wanted to see what it was like.
4. It was a mistake... it was a sin!

After that happened to me.... maybe the second or third time... I swore ... more or less mockingly/jokingly.... off bi/straight women! I say mockingly/jokingly as if... I would really stay away from cute hot, girls of any preference! <-- Keep in mind I was in my 20's...young... dumb and full o'... :p

Anyway, so while I was in my "I'll never touch a straight / bi chic again!" funk... my butch friends weren't! They just continued on their not so merry way ... banging their heads against the same walls... over and over again. I watched and I learned. They all got the same responses I got along with lots of BS from the ex-husbands or ex-boyfriends who were typically lurking SOMEWHERE in the picture.

Guys are ...usually... fine if it's two femmes together but when it's his femme and a butch... nope, that's not okay!! My fellow butch friends would tell me how they'd get asked about packing.... asked what did they do to her... asked how big was their cock... if they were lucky... dumb ass questions were all they got. Some were not so lucky. I had two butch friends threatened and one beaten up by an ex-boyfriend. So, my half joking swear-off from bi's and straight women twenty years ago became permanent. No offense intended to anyone. You be you and I'll be me. :)

Simply put... I just find it unnecessary or worth the potential hassle that can come from it. There are plenty of wonderful lesbian women out there who share my culture ... my history... my experiences...etc... etc... which puts us much closer being on the same page than does straight or bi women.


EDIT: p.s. I'm assuming by "straight" we mean first-timers?

[JDeere]

Sure :)

Let me preface first by saying the best advise pops ever gave me was that life was too hard, too fast, too rough... too whatever... for anyone to rely on learning just from one's own mistakes. Better to learn too from the mistakes made by those around you. So...

When I was in my 20's I, like many of my butch friends, we were primarily interested in looks... gay ... bi... straight... didn't matter. If they were cute, if they were hot, we were game! I dated a few straight and bi women ... and it always turned into one mess or another. Within a few days... or a few weeks... I'd hear...

1. Oh no, I have a boyfriend!
2. You're sweet... but... umm.... I'm gonna go back to my boyfriend.
3. I just wanted to see what it was like.
4. It was a mistake... it was a sin!

After that happened to me.... maybe the second or third time... I swore ... more or less mockingly/jokingly.... off bi/straight women! I say mockingly/jokingly as if... I would really stay away from cute hot, girls of any preference! <-- Keep in mind I was in my 20's...young... dumb and full o'... :p

Anyway, so while I was in my "I'll never touch a straight / bi chic again!" funk... my butch friends weren't! They just continued on their not so merry way ... banging their heads against the same walls... over and over again. I watched and I learned. They all got the same responses I got along with lots of BS from the ex-husbands or ex-boyfriends who were typically lurking SOMEWHERE in the picture.

Guys are ...usually... fine if it's two femmes together but when it's his femme and a butch... nope, that's not okay!! My fellow butch friends would tell me how they'd get asked about packing.... asked what did they do to her... asked how big was their cock... if they were lucky... dumb ass questions were all they got. Some were not so lucky. I had two butch friends threatened and one beaten up by an ex-boyfriend. So, my half joking swear-off from bi's and straight women twenty years ago became permanent. No offense intended to anyone. You be you and I'll be me. :)

Simply put... I just find it unnecessary or worth the potential hassle that can come from it. There are plenty of wonderful lesbian women out there who share my culture ... my history... my experiences...etc... etc... which puts us much closer being on the same page than does straight or bi women.


EDIT: p.s. I'm assuming by "straight" we mean first-timers?

No no talking about first timers. Well I'm not, at least.

[Cin]

Sure :)

So, my half joking swear-off from bi's and straight women twenty years ago became permanent. No offense intended to anyone. You be you and I'll be me. :)

Simply put... I just find it unnecessary or worth the potential hassle that can come from it. There are plenty of wonderful lesbian women out there who share my culture ... my history... my experiences...etc... etc... which puts us much closer being on the same page than does straight or bi women.


EDIT: p.s. I'm assuming by "straight" we mean first-timers?

I absolutely agree that you be you and I'll be me.

In the interest of bisexuals though, I don't see them belonging lumped together with straight women. Half the time straight women don't belong lumped together with straight women.

But as far as straight women, I have had good and bad experiences so I totally get why someone might have a no dating policy when it comes to straight women. However, I have enjoyed a few wonderful relationships with bisexual women, relationships I am so grateful to have had. One in particular lasted over 6 years and taught me so much. The relationship taught me so much and the woman taught me even more. It would have been sad to have missed those experiences.

However, as you so aptly stated you be you and I'll be me. I just wanted to throw that out about bisexuality. Being bisexual is not the same as being heterosexual

[JDeere]

I absolutely agree that you be you and I'll be me.

In the interest of bisexuals though, I don't see them belonging lumped together with straight women. Half the time straight women don't belong lumped together with straight women.

But as far as straight women, I have had good and bad experiences so I totally get why someone might have a no dating policy when it comes to straight women. However, I have enjoyed a few wonderful relationships with bisexual women, relationships I am so grateful to have had. One in particular lasted over 6 years and taught me so much. The relationship taught me so much and the woman taught me even more. It would have been sad to have missed those experiences.

However, as you so aptly stated you be you and I'll be me. I just wanted to throw that out about bisexuality though. Being bisexual is not the same as being heterosexual

Thank you! My gf is bisexual and she doesn't like being lumped in with straight women.

[Bubala]

Live and let others live. Let everyone be with whomever they choose to pursue, for whatever reason, reasons are theirs and theirs alone.

We all have our own sets of experience-based beliefs and prejudice, consciously or unconsciously driven predispositions to time after time choose a certain type, for whatever that "type" may be.

[BullDog]

Everyone is entitled to their preferences, but there are a lot of negative stereotypes about bisexuals that get perpetuated and that is not cool.

I prefer to be with a lesbian or queer-identified femme (which could definitely include a woman who is bisexual), but everyone has their own identity and personal journey they are on, so I stay open. Some women do come out later in life.

[Lyte]

I agree x four! :)

If not straight as in first timers, what then?

[Bubala]

Every generalization leads to stereotyping, and in my humble opinion generalizing (whether we infer it to be positive or negative in its nature) always harms its subject, as it invokes unfair judgment through a biased lens.

Coming out has nothing to do with who or what one is. The question of "outness" pertains to one's public transparency about their most inner self, that they may or may not feel compelled to advertize.

One's sexual orientation thus remains a unique personal state advertised or not.

I am a woman who has always loved butches. I have never been with a bio man ever - don't get me wrong I am by no means proud of myself over this fact, in fact I spent years being shamed by friends and acquaintances within our own community, telling me how I don't "really" knowing who I am because I haven't "tried it all"... :blink:

Speaking of out I have been outed by , at the time, self proclaimed "bisexual" friend in collage. It took me years to wash my brain off of the harsh biases earned by this one incident. Strangers always assume that I am straight, yet I know that this is my life, I CANNOT for the love of g-d I cannot change who I am, I wish I could , life would have been so much easier now wouldn't it? At the time of my wonderful outing, I felt such deep sense of betrayal by a friend who at the time chose to ID as "bisexual" / bi-curious? maybe... I felt like, oh nice you can hang out here while it's cool, then when things get though you can run right back across that bridge and watch us burn!? I cannot do that, this is my life, this is the one life I live and one skin I have, I cannot shed it, no matter how hard I might try... This does not reflect my current state of mind, I am using the narration above solely as a stylistic tool. Anyways decades later , that "friend" is happily married to a man, has a wonderful suburban home two kids and a dog and is, wait for it... a devoted Christian anti-lgbt activist! Who would have guessed it? Ha!

On the other hand I am still here holding my butch tightly, when we travel through hostile places around the world, or at home. Political and social struggle continues, few battles might have been won but the war is not over yet, for any basic human rights, we are far away from social freedom. Do I worry about my own safety, maybe, at times, I "pass" as straight, ppl assume, ppl cannot guess, what they don't know cannot hurt me, it's fine. However, I am not the one who walks around with a huge target on my forehead, my butch and all the butches out there are. This is my personal experience, around the world butches are the prime object of hate, as they represent a direct threat to misogynist patriarchal society... Anyways that's a digression so back to the subject.

Now, I am aware of my own biases, it took me years to wash my brain off of generalized notion that all of "them" "bi-curiours" people are simply "undecided" "explorers". Just because my former friend from collage was a person of certain character flaws, this does not mean that "all of them" are!
I am sure that every butch and femme and queer and trans and any which kind of human out there has their own negative experience and their own story. Maybe just maybe negativity can be an exception and positivity could be a rule?

Let's liberate ourslves from this "us" versus "them" predicament. We're all human, be who you are, do what and who you like, be happy, live and let others live! :)

I met many wonderful bi-sexual, pan-sexual and every which way sexual and asexual people out there, who for one reason or another may or may not fit the mold and are who they are, with no less integrity by any means than any other lesbian, gay, straight, queer, trans, bi, or whatever in -between, pink and polka dotted human alien person.

Love, peace and kind regards to all! <3

[JDeere]

Generalizations lead to alienation. Imo that's why we as a community have a problem with the non gltbqi community. But back to this topic, don't lump bisexuals with heterosexual because 9 times out of 10 they don't appreciate being lumped.

Plus if you stick to your guns about not dating a bisexual woman, you may miss out on a wonderful partner.

[Lyte]

I agree x four! :) If not straight as in first timers, what then?

My bad... i refreshed my memory re: the original post.

Straight women hold no particular fascination for me. I tend to find most women fascinating... particularly femmes, whether they be gay, straight, bi or anywhere in between.

[JDeere]

My bad... i refreshed my memory re: the original post.

Straight women hold no particular fascination for me. I tend to find most women fascinating... particularly femmes, whether they be gay, straight, bi or anywhere in between.

I second this!!! :cigar2:

[Lyte]

I've thought it really the opposite. There is some... albeit tiny... basis in fact for every stereotype and it's from stereotyping that we begin to generalize.

Every generalization leads to stereotyping....

[Tuff Stuff]

Someone posted that straight women can be fun, but I would like to add that they can also be dangerous.The problem for me was that they were married..some with husbands and small children.I never once assumed that she loved me enough to run off and leave behind her family.I knew they were straight because they'd be the first one to break it off.I still had fun,i'm pretty sure they did.

I myself am not bi-sexual,but I am super curious about some people that I meet in my life and sometimes this leads (for me anyways) wanting more than friendship..no strings attached..and afterwards we can both remain being friends or, part and go on our merry way.

[Kosmo]

I find women attractive by the energy they give off, like my girlfriend. That gay, queer, femme, or 'other' energy that doesn't belong, ya know? So, for me, straight women do not possess this energy. I've never dated a non-homosexual woman. Have dated a closeted woman (did not last long).

I have cordial relationships with straight women; like friends and coworkers.

[butchgeek]

I am naive maybe. How would I tell the difference between someone who is straight and perhaps experimenting, versus someone who is coming to terms with their identity later in life? I suppose time will tell. I haven’t been anyone’s first since high school, but I’ve fallen for someone...

[homoe]

I had as similar experience as above!

When I worked at the video store I had a customer who seemed 'very friendly" , gave me a $25 gift certificate with a box of Fango mints for Christmas, and once sent me flowers for Easter. She always ended up in my check out line whenever she came to the store and would often ask me for movie recommendations. I was totally gaga for her but still I never perused things.

I was pretty sure she was involved with one of the assistant coaches for an NBA team so that always made me leary but it baffled me as well!

It remains a mystery to this day! If I had to guess, I would have to say she might of been exploring options later in life!

[BullDog]

I would think getting to know someone and talking to them would make that clear, as well as whether the two of you were compatible and interested in each other in general. If not perhaps you will need to ask questions if it's something that is important to you.


I am naive maybe. How would I tell the difference between someone who is straight and perhaps experimenting, versus someone who is coming to terms with their identity later in life? I suppose time will tell. I haven’t been anyone’s first since high school, but I’ve fallen for someone...

[imperfect_cupcake]

^ yeah, you won't be able to tell from surface chit chat. You have to bother to get to know them. And sometimes I've seen butch friends read what they want to hear into their answers. Or sometimes out of insecurity and fear not hear the clear statements.

But that happens with regular already out of the closet people trying to have a conversation *shrug.*
I don't know how many times I've had this conversation:

"I like you'
"I don't think I'm butch enough for you!"
"I think you are hot"
"I mean I don't think I'm quite butch enough... I don't wear lipstick or anything but like I don't drive a truck and I blah blah blah blah"
"I think you are very sexy"
"but what do you consider butch."
*pulls my own eyes out and chokes them with them with the chords*

I stopped doing that. I have now started saying

"I like you"
"yeah but am I butch enough?"
"If by that you mean 'is my cock big enough' the answer is 'NEVER' HAHAHAHA. But you know this already. any other questions?"

that usually stops it.

Just try.

[JDeere]

I wonder if we took " straight"' out of its quotes and see what happens.

spaghetti is straight, till you boil it.

[Gretchen 1965]

^ yeah, you won't be able to tell from surface chit chat. You have to bother to get to know them. And sometimes I've seen butch friends read what they want to hear into their answers. Or sometimes out of insecurity and fear not hear the clear statements.

But that happens with regular already out of the closet people trying to have a conversation *shrug.*
I don't know how many times I've had this conversation:

"I like you'
"I don't think I'm butch enough for you!"
"I think you are hot"
"I mean I don't think I'm quite butch enough... I don't wear lipstick or anything but like I don't drive a truck and I blah blah blah blah"
"I think you are very sexy"
"but what do you consider butch."
*pulls my own eyes out and chokes them with them with the chords*

I stopped doing that. I have now started saying

"I like you"
"yeah but am I butch enough?"
"If by that you mean 'is my cock big enough' the answer is 'NEVER' HAHAHAHA. But you know this already. any other questions?"

that usually stops it.

Just try.

I am 53year old skinny short 5ft3 tall wrinkled face thin lips green eyes grayhaired soft butch single woman. People call me ugly alot of the times, and also make jokes about my looks. Ever since I was 14 people always call me names. Since childhood I have suffered taunts about being ugly,short and masculine. I suffered the worst bullying in high school, It was torture. One of the things I've noticed over the years is that I'm always attracted to heterosexual tall curvy ultrafeminine women that I know are unavailable.

It's been a pattern since I was a teenager. There was this girl I was in lust (thought it was love then) with all through high school and I basically idolized her. The problem was I barely even spoke to her because I was so nervous around her. As a result I never really tried to date anybody else because I thought she was the one I was supposed to be with. Since i was a teenager I am more sexually attracted to heterosexual well endowed ultrafeminine tall curvy attractive women. They turn me on. All the women I gotten far with were not my physical type. I just did what a lot of other dykes seem to do and adjust to what the market has to offer. Moreover, in the past I have scared women away for acting weird (nothing major or too weird) but enough where they weren’t interested in me. I am just not good at talking to women; I get tongue tied and am not confident. What do you think? have you ever felt the same way? Am I creepy? (yeah I guess so)I am basically looking if someone could help me to cope with this situation… I just don’t know what to do.

Please try not to judge me too much as this forum is supposed to be accepting and non-judgemental.I don’t know what it is, but ever since around high school heterosexual attractive tall curvy feminine females have been very uncomfortable around me.Does anyone relate to this or understand why straight women would get scared or creeped out or repulsed by someone so fast if they’re not really a rapist? Can it really be facial features alone (really ugly wrinkled face)? What kind of outward behaviour will make them creeped out or repulsed?I am short and skinny.it’s not like I randomly walk up to them and start touching their breasts or something. I at least know that that would be totally inappropriate. I am tiny short skinny 53year old masculine woman.I am not tough and strong. I am not intimidating.I am physically completely harmless.

[Gemme]

Please try not to judge me too much as this forum is supposed to be accepting and non-judgemental.I don’t know what it is, but ever since around high school heterosexual attractive tall curvy feminine females have been very uncomfortable around me.Does anyone relate to this or understand why straight women would get scared or creeped out or repulsed by someone so fast if they’re not really a rapist? Can it really be facial features alone (really ugly wrinkled face)? What kind of outward behaviour will make them creeped out or repulsed?I am short and skinny.it’s not like I randomly walk up to them and start touching their breasts or something. I at least know that that would be totally inappropriate. I am tiny short skinny 53year old masculine woman.I am not tough and strong. I am not intimidating.I am physically completely harmless.

You mentioned that you feel awkward sometimes. That feeling will show in your mannerisms and behavior and that could be off-putting for some people. Also, if you are hyper-focused on a woman, that can be intense and concerning for someone, regardless of your physical presentation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not really a rapist". Can you elaborate?

[Gretchen 1965]

You mentioned that you feel awkward sometimes. That feeling will show in your mannerisms and behavior and that could be off-putting for some people. Also, if you are hyper-focused on a woman, that can be intense and concerning for someone, regardless of your physical presentation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not really a rapist". Can you elaborate?
I still find it difficult to be normal around tall well endowed curvy heterosexual feminine women. I feel immensely attracted even standing next to tall,curvy, feminine women. Has anyone dealt with this? For me the, taller a woman the better. If there's a tall feminine woman who's busty and is showing a generous amount of cleavage, well my brain just gets hypnotized by them. Its like I can't focus on her face, my eyes lock on to them like magnets. I've had this problem for a long time (since high school) it probably comes about because of my sexual frustration but I constantly find my eyes darting down to tall curvy female's breasts and butts when I'm talking to them or just pass them.
Its real embarrassing, I feel like I'm some lewd perv but there's no conscious thought, my eyes just lock on to them without my control. Its just tall well endowed curvy ultrafeminine women, not skinny, overweight or short women. My other problem is all the women I gotten far with were not my physical type. I am ugly. I can't stand looking at myself in the mirror. Sometimes I will take long drives and just think about how sad my life is, how lonely I have become, the things I regret, and what I could have done differently. I do this a few times a week, drive and cry. It makes me feel better momentarily.

I haven't been happy in years, I don't see any signs of it getting any better. I see most people getting excited for the weekend, but for me, I get depressed. I have no girlfriend. I have no one. I have friends, and I have had girlfriends and a long term (12 years) relationship, but only because people tend to like me when they get to know me. I've never received compliments on my looks. It's like my whole life is a struggle because of this. I never feel great or like a winner. I keep no pictures of myself. Sometimes I'll take some with my laptop's webcam or my cellphone, and when I look at them it's really painful. I've taken pictures from every angle and every single one of them looks terrible.

And the problem is that I can't stand to be in any type of relationship anymore because of that. I'm 53 now and the last time I went on a date was 2 years ago. Some feminine lesbian women I've known for a while seem attracted to me, flirt or invite me to activities, but I remember how they looked at me the first time they saw me, and it just kills it for me. Maybe I'm vain and shallow. I know this sounds perverted. Like, just, I always have to hold back urges to just touch some tall curvy women breasts or butt. I just get urges to reach out and grope breasts, or slap their butts, or whatever.

[tantalizingfemme]

I still find it difficult to be normal around tall well endowed curvy heterosexual feminine women. I feel immensely attracted even standing next to tall,curvy, feminine women. Has anyone dealt with this? For me the, taller a woman the better. If there's a tall feminine woman who's busty and is showing a generous amount of cleavage, well my brain just gets hypnotized by them. Its like I can't focus on her face, my eyes lock on to them like magnets. I've had this problem for a long time (since high school) it probably comes about because of my sexual frustration but I constantly find my eyes darting down to tall curvy female's breasts and butts when I'm talking to them or just pass them.
Its real embarrassing, I feel like I'm some lewd perv but there's no conscious thought, my eyes just lock on to them without my control. Its just tall well endowed curvy ultrafeminine women, not skinny, overweight or short women. My other problem is all the women I gotten far with were not my physical type. I am ugly. I can't stand looking at myself in the mirror. Sometimes I will take long drives and just think about how sad my life is, how lonely I have become, the things I regret, and what I could have done differently. I do this a few times a week, drive and cry. It makes me feel better momentarily.

I haven't been happy in years, I don't see any signs of it getting any better. I see most people getting excited for the weekend, but for me, I get depressed. I have no girlfriend. I have no one. I have friends, and I have had girlfriends and a long term (12 years) relationship, but only because people tend to like me when they get to know me. I've never received compliments on my looks. It's like my whole life is a struggle because of this. I never feel great or like a winner. I keep no pictures of myself. Sometimes I'll take some with my laptop's webcam or my cellphone, and when I look at them it's really painful. I've taken pictures from every angle and every single one of them looks terrible.

And the problem is that I can't stand to be in any type of relationship anymore because of that. I'm 53 now and the last time I went on a date was 2 years ago. Some feminine lesbian women I've known for a while seem attracted to me, flirt or invite me to activities, but I remember how they looked at me the first time they saw me, and it just kills it for me. Maybe I'm vain and shallow. I know this sounds perverted. Like, just, I always have to hold back urges to just touch some tall curvy women breasts or butt. I just get urges to reach out and grope breasts, or slap their butts, or whatever.

I hope you don't say the words tall, curvy, well-endowed, busty, cleavage, feminine, etc. verbally as often as you have in your two posts.

Your last two sentences - creepy, perverted, offensive, talking about sexually assaulting someone, and just gross.

Are you really looking for advice or just a forum to repeat yourself and say gross things about women's bodies on a website full of women?

[Gretchen 1965]

I hope you don't say the words tall, curvy, well-endowed, busty, cleavage, feminine, etc. verbally as often as you have in your two posts.

Your last two sentences - creepy, perverted, offensive, talking about sexually assaulting someone, and just gross.

Are you really looking for advice or just a forum to repeat yourself and say gross things about women's bodies on a website full of women?

I really need some advice. Please don't judge me. I just hate myself. I feel like smashing my head against a wall sometimes I just can't stop thinking. I'm just so upset with myself. keep asking why me. Why I have to be such a pervert? Now I'm convinced I'm a perv and a sexual freak. Why am I like this? Why?

[tantalizingfemme]

I really need some advice. Please don't judge me. I just hate myself. I feel like smashing my head against a wall sometimes I just can't stop thinking. I'm just so upset with myself. keep asking why me. Why I have to be such a pervert? Now I'm convinced I'm a perv and a sexual freak. Why am I like this? Why?

This is a troll post.

[Gretchen 1965]

This is a troll post.

This is so upsetting to me I don’t think I can discuss this verbally with anyone without bursting into tears.I came here hoping someone can give me some advice, or even some words of comfort. I am feeling so sad. Here is the truth, calling someone a troll has become a form of trolling in it's self. You have no interest in a discussion with me you just want to call me a troll to get me riled up and hopeful get others on your side with such accusations because people just love mobs with pitchforks. I am a human. Just because I am having weird urges and sexual frustrations does not make me a troll.

[tantalizingfemme]

This is so upsetting to me I don’t think I can discuss this verbally with anyone without bursting into tears.I came here hoping someone can give me some advice, or even some words of comfort. I am feeling so sad. Here is the truth, calling someone a troll has become a form of trolling in it's self. You have no interest in a discussion with me you just want to call me a troll to get me riled up and hopeful get others on your side with such accusations because people just love mobs with pitchforks. I am a human. Just because I am having weird urges and sexual frustrations does not make me a troll.

First of all, I called your post a troll post, not you. Second, you come onto a website and talk about sexualizing women's body parts and how you want to sexually assault them. Then you want us to figure out why you are like this? You are right, I am not interested in discussing your desire to sexually assault women. Nor am I interested in giving you comfort about your desire to sexually assault women.

[*Anya*]

Gretchen,

If you are not a troll, you need to find a very, very, good therapist because you need much more help than a forum can give you.

I am quoting tantalizing simply because she separated out the most offensive (out of several) parts of your posts.


I hope you don't say the words tall, curvy, well-endowed, busty, cleavage, feminine, etc. verbally as often as you have in your two posts.

Your last two sentences - creepy, perverted, offensive, talking about sexually assaulting someone, and just gross.

Are you really looking for advice or just a forum to repeat yourself and say gross things about women's bodies on a website full of women?

This is a troll post.

[Medusa]

Admin speaking:

Gretchen, it’s fine to ask for help but the folks here are just regular people and even the actual therapists who come here would be remiss to try to hash this out with you in a public setting.

Please understand that there are a LOT of survivors of sexual trauma and harassment here. Hell, you may be one yourself. I just want you think about how it feels to folks when you talk about how hard it is for you to “control your urges”. That is super unsafe for people who have been the survivors of other people who had issues controlling their own urges.

Also? You’re a brand new member here and folks tend to be leery and protective of this space when a brand new person comes out of the gate posting really incendiary posts.

Thanks,
Angie aka The Admin

[Medusa]

Gretchen1965-

I am going to ban the IP address that you are posting from.

We do not allow VPNs, ip cloaks, or other devices designed to conceal your identity.

You are free to sign back up on the forum from your home location if your true intent is to participate in discussions but please know, I will be paying closer attention to the signups and will be cross-referencing the IP address used to sign up on this site with all posts and ip locations in our database.

If I find that you are a current member and have created a second screen name, I will ban you permanently from this site.

Thanks,
Angie

[Martina]

I read it through twice now. Not sure. But my bet would be that it's a guy. Why that would give anyone a chuckle is beyond me.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I was about to suggest to Gretchen she go and see a sex worker who specialises in teaching basic social skills and help explore fantasies. I knew a few, and did a lot of that work myself when I was still in the trade.

But then I remember reading something about the US shutting down all the safe advertising sites.

Therapist, and Sex worker. Both if you have the dosh.

[Martina]

She said she is super short and likes super tall women. But then she said she can't help looking "down" at these women's breasts when she talks to them. She's a troll.

[FireSignFemme]

Well man, women or child I don't know, but what I do know is this - whatever a person's age, there are definitely better ways to go about expressing oneself and seeking help. I'm in my 50's and if I ever ran around saying stuff like that, oh I would certainly hope someone around me would be lucid enough to have me institutionalized. I'd say whoever is doing it, regardless of age, has to be very, very immature.

[*Anya*]

She said she is super short and likes super tall women. But then she said she can't help looking "down" at these women's breasts when she talks to them. She's a troll.

Well man, women or child I don't know, but what I do know is this - whatever a person's age, there are definitely better ways to go about expressing oneself and seeking help. I'm in my 50's and if I ever ran around saying stuff like that, oh I would certainly hope someone around me would be lucid enough to have me institutionalized. I'd say whoever is doing it, regardless of age, has to be very, very immature.

All of it was bad enough but this clinched for me:

"I know this sounds perverted. Like, just, I always have to hold back urges to just touch some tall curvy women breasts or butt. I just get urges to reach out and grope breasts, or slap their butts, or whatever."

Male and a troll.

[Martina]

It's so creepy when this stuff happens. I was on the FB Shambhala group a couple of days ago, and it became clear to me that this guy wanted to discuss the definition of rape because he wanted to talk about rape in detail. You know how rude I can be. I just said if you know this little about sexual assault, should you be commenting on it. What I hate is how stupid you feel afterward for taking a creepy person seriously. *Shiver*

[Gemme]

I still shake my head at the 'not really a rapist' part.

For the record, and thread compliance, I was 'straight' until I was 26.

[Dominique]

Well man, women or child I don't know, but what I do know is this - whatever a person's age, there are definitely better ways to go about expressing oneself and seeking help. I'm in my 50's and if I ever ran around saying stuff like that, oh I would certainly hope someone around me would be lucid enough to have me institutionalized. I'd say whoever is doing it, regardless of age, has to be very, very immature.

Cellar dweller! 😱