Clothes do not Maketh the butch ....

[Merlin]

Or do they ?

How important is clothing to you ?

[amiyesiam]

clothes do not make the femme
or do they

it matters to some
it doesn't matter to some

it is individual

i am to busy worrying about being me to worry about what others think about me

[The_Lady_Snow]

Butch is a gender no? The shell does not represent gender, that's just me

[Merlin]

People argue with me here butch is a look not a gender, I also get told I chose to be this way .. :sunglass:

[Corkey]

Merlin, clothes don't make anyone any gender, one is who one is and those who can't or wont accept you for you need a checklist for their own BS. K?

We all are who we are and those who matter could give a rats ass, and those who don't, you don't give a second thought to. SSWA (so say we all).

You be the best HUMAN you can and to hockey pucks what anyone else thinks.

[Daywalker]

Or do they ?

How important is clothing to you ?

I prefer to be wearing some.
:|

Bending minds ~ Shapeshifting theories.

It's up to all of us to bury those rusty ways of thinking.

:deepthoughts:

I mean, unless I am walking around covered in a box, I prefer not to
be placed in one either; so actively challenging the antiquated
theories that have managed to spill over into
this day and age is surely one way
to keep things interesting.
:coffee:

My attire and general appearance is a style all it's own.
:vampirebat:

Makes me shudder to think that the way a shirt buttons up the front,
left or right...can pull the weight of judgement from society.
:dots:

Lots of thoughts on this, but it'll have
to wait...as mah schedule is full of :ohm: today.

:weedsmoke:

:daywalker:

[Rope]

Clothes don't make you a butch...plenty that defy that based on their own personal style (or lack of style <g>), or their gender bending wearing both male and female clothes, or however it works for them, etc. Not all butches want to wear ties or boxer briefs or whatever you might use as the barometer to measure "butchness".

In the leather community we can spot s/m folks---yeah, in this case stands for stand and model s/m rather than actual leather folk. Leather folks don't all own leather clothing and leather clothing certainly does not make you a leather community person or someone that understands what earning one's leathers means.

Rope--

[LaneyDoll]

I have never passed up a gift because of the gift wrap. If my S/O treats me well. they can certainly dress as they desire. Now, if they specifically ask me to shop for them/dress them, I will certainly do so. I have dated a few women who prefer that I do the shopping simply because I liked to do it and they would rather not.

As a femme, I have had plenty of times that I was judged because of my appearance. I would not, have not and refuse to do the same.

[Daktari]

People argue with me here butch is a look not a gender, I also get told I chose to be this way .. :sunglass:

I'd be very surprised if anyone in the bf community over on this side of the pond have said that butch is not a gender! People in mainstream lezzer-land would possibly say such a thing though.

[Merlin]

They have to me doc.

[Daktari]

They have to me doc.

Really Merlin? I can't say I've ever heard that from any of the bf community I know here.

[EnderD_503]

Even if the whole world were suddenly forced to wear tinfoil jumpsuits every day for the rest of eternity, butches would still be butches. Same with everyone else continuing to be whatever they might identify as. Butch is an identity, not a pair of jeans or a hair cut.

[Legendryder]

My take on clothing is I refuse to look like a slob. Unless of course I am out working on the bike or car or mowing the lawn. I dress neatly. Period. I will not wear clothes with holes, no matter how trendy it might be. I prefer men's button shirts, not because they are men's, but because they just fit better. I have long arms and legs, women's clothes do not fit me. I also have no boobs to speak of, so those darts just look silly. Just sayin'.

[Bit]

People argue with me here butch is a look not a gender, I also get told I chose to be this way .. :sunglass:

How dismissive. I'm sorry that's happened to you.

In my experience over on this side of the pond, people have said such things--or the equivalent: that a femme cannot wear men's clothing without magically turning herself into a butch--because they have rigid ideas about the meaning of "butch" and "femme." Some people have been open to a discussion and to broadening that definition; some people have used it as a wall of defense to avoid talking about it, a way to categorize and dismiss me.

Mostly these days I don't run into such nonsense anymore. Hope it gets better for you, too.

[Apocalipstic]

People sometimes give way too much of their opinion! So sorry people tell you you should dress this way or that. It happened to me too in my younger days, now I just refuse to engage.

Do clothes make the Butch? no.

Do I love to be out with a well dressed Butch? Hell yes! :)

[AtLast]

Even if the whole world were suddenly forced to wear tinfoil jumpsuits every day for the rest of eternity, butches would still be butches. Same with everyone else continuing to be whatever they might identify as. Butch is an identity, not a pair of jeans or a hair cut.

Yup- an identity, an attitude... whatever one wants it to be for themselves!

My take on clothing is I refuse to look like a slob. Unless of course I am out working on the bike or car or mowing the lawn. I dress neatly. Period. I will not wear clothes with holes, no matter how trendy it might be. I prefer men's button shirts, not because they are men's, but because they just fit better. I have long arms and legs, women's clothes do not fit me. I also have no boobs to speak of, so those darts just look silly. Just sayin'.

I wear a mix of clothing- some men's. some women's- I agree, what fits and I feel good in, is the key. Also, I am with you about sloppiness- but, sure, when doing yardwork, house panting, etc., I wear my grungies. Don't care for the sloppy look on anyone- butch/trans/femme... hets... anyone! probably a bias of mine, but, grooming is something I do notice.


Merlin, clothes don't make anyone any gender, one is who one is and those who can't or wont accept you for you need a checklist for their own BS. K?

We all are who we are and those who matter could give a rats ass, and those who don't, you don't give a second thought to. SSWA (so say we all).

You be the best HUMAN you can and to hockey pucks what anyone else thinks.

Yeah!! Wear what you like and feel comfy in!

[EnderD_503]

My take on clothing is I refuse to look like a slob. Unless of course I am out working on the bike or car or mowing the lawn. I dress neatly. Period. I will not wear clothes with holes, no matter how trendy it might be. I prefer men's button shirts, not because they are men's, but because they just fit better. I have long arms and legs, women's clothes do not fit me. I also have no boobs to speak of, so those darts just look silly. Just sayin'.

I wear a mix of clothing- some men's. some women's- I agree, what fits and I feel good in, is the key. Also, I am with you about sloppiness- but, sure, when doing yardwork, house panting, etc., I wear my grungies. Don't care for the sloppy look on anyone- butch/trans/femme... hets... anyone! probably a bias of mine, but, grooming is something I do notice.

Alright, just wanna jump in because there seems to be a reoccuring "anti-'sloppy'" theme on these forums, lol. Seriously, I understand if you all don't like to dress a certain way, but why does it have to come down to commenting about how other's might choose to dress, even if it is "sloppy" in your books? Is a person in a pair of slacks and a polo automatically "better" than a person in torn up jeans and a sleeveless shirt? Also, there's a difference in grooming/hygiene and the clothing a person chooses to wear. Just because I have multiple holes in my pair of camos, or the bottoms of my jeans are shredded to shit, doesn't mean I'm unhygienic. Sheesh, people :p

From the mouths of the greats:

Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

It is an interesting question how far men would retain their relative rank if they were divested of their clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts. - Henry David Thoreau

He also has a great one from Walden where he goes on rant on how it's idiotic that a man is looked down upon if he walks into town with a hole in the knee of his pants, yet if he had a broken leg no one would care. Why does a hole in the knee of his pants speak of his character? It shouldn't.

If most of us are ashamed of shabby clothes and shoddy furniture, let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies... It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the meat wrapped inside it. - Albert Einstein

In fact, that one just might be new sig material lol

Yeah!! Wear what you like and feel comfy in!

Exactly ;) To me, dress "neatly" if you want to dress that way. Dress in a suit every day of your life if you want. Dress in sweatpants every day if you want. Walk around in a brown paper bag for all I care, lol.

Cheers,

Ender, King of shabby clothing :canadian:

[Daywalker]

I can be seen about the neighborhood wearing jammies
under mah long black jackets. No socks, slip on Zombie
shoes...and barely a rake thru mah mane.
:shocking:

I clean up good when I care to,
but the rest of the time it's all about my comfort.
:coffee:

Oh, and winter time I wear huge puffy gorilla
and talon slippers to the store.
:vampirebat:

So there.
:|

:daywalker:

[Daktari]

It's funny, I met up with a gaydargirl I've chatted with for years the other day and she thought it highly amusing, and was surprised for some reason, that I was wearing a pink tshirt. Apparently only girls wear pink! :cheesy:

[Apocalipstic]

It's funny, I met up with a gaydargirl I've chatted with for years the other day and she thought it highly amusing, and was surprised for some reason, that I was wearing a pink tshirt. Apparently only girls wear pink! :cheesy:

When I was little I insisted on a blue bedroom. Everyone was shocked and stunned.

Colors are just colors...seeems so silly!

[Apocalipstic]

Alright, just wanna jump in because there seems to be a reoccuring "anti-'sloppy'" theme on these forums, lol. Seriously, I understand if you all don't like to dress a certain way, but why does it have to come down to commenting about how other's might choose to dress, even if it is "sloppy" in your books? Is a person in a pair of slacks and a polo automatically "better" than a person in torn up jeans and a sleeveless shirt? Also, there's a difference in grooming/hygiene and the clothing a person chooses to wear. Just because I have multiple holes in my pair of camos, or the bottoms of my jeans are shredded to shit, doesn't mean I'm unhygienic. Sheesh, people :p

From the mouths of the greats:

Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

It is an interesting question how far men would retain their relative rank if they were divested of their clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts. - Henry David Thoreau

He also has a great one from Walden where he goes on rant on how it's idiotic that a man is looked down upon if he walks into town with a hole in the knee of his pants, yet if he had a broken leg no one would care. Why does a hole in the knee of his pants speak of his character? It shouldn't.

If most of us are ashamed of shabby clothes and shoddy furniture, let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies... It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the meat wrapped inside it. - Albert Einstein

In fact, that one just might be new sig material lol



Exactly ;) To me, dress "neatly" if you want to dress that way. Dress in a suit every day of your life if you want. Dress in sweatpants every day if you want. Walk around in a brown paper bag for all I care, lol.

Cheers,

Ender, King of shabby clothing :canadian:

Really good points!

Ripped up jeans can be hot.

[Corkey]

Today it's a tee shirt( size matters fishin') and shorts kinda day in mah slippers, I walk to and from the trash cans and all about our yard. I could care less what others think of my get up.

[Daktari]

If I won the Lottery I'd wear ultra smart bespoke clothing day in day out. As I'm a poor student I keep my good suits for best and wear regular 501's or cargo troosers/shorts and tshirts with a hoody or some such rather a lot. Does that make me an 'un' genderqueer-poof? I think lots of us on the male end of the spectrum (wherever that is for you personally) tend to dress thus on a day to day basis. It's clean and pressed but not 'smart' that's all.

Then when we need to we scrub up mighty fine! :groucho:

[Martina]

One of the hottest butches i have been with wore cargo pants, t-shirts, and hoodies much of the time. God, nothing like a sleeveless t-shirt on a butch. .

[Chazz]

Butch is a gender no? The shell does not represent gender, that's just me

Butch shells?

Where does one shop to get these shells?

And me thinking skinny jeans and Harley boots would do.

[Legendryder]

Alright, just wanna jump in because there seems to be a reoccuring "anti-'sloppy'" theme on these forums, lol. Seriously, I understand if you all don't like to dress a certain way, but why does it have to come down to commenting about how other's might choose to dress, even if it is "sloppy" in your books? Is a person in a pair of slacks and a polo automatically "better" than a person in torn up jeans and a sleeveless shirt? Also, there's a difference in grooming/hygiene and the clothing a person chooses to wear. Just because I have multiple holes in my pair of camos, or the bottoms of my jeans are shredded to shit, doesn't mean I'm unhygienic. Sheesh, people :p

From the mouths of the greats:

Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

It is an interesting question how far men would retain their relative rank if they were divested of their clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts. - Henry David Thoreau

He also has a great one from Walden where he goes on rant on how it's idiotic that a man is looked down upon if he walks into town with a hole in the knee of his pants, yet if he had a broken leg no one would care. Why does a hole in the knee of his pants speak of his character? It shouldn't.

If most of us are ashamed of shabby clothes and shoddy furniture, let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies... It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the meat wrapped inside it. - Albert Einstein

In fact, that one just might be new sig material lol



Exactly ;) To me, dress "neatly" if you want to dress that way. Dress in a suit every day of your life if you want. Dress in sweatpants every day if you want. Walk around in a brown paper bag for all I care, lol.

Cheers,

Ender, King of shabby clothing :canadian:

Well, since the very first post of this here deal was how important clothes are to you, it seems that all these "anti-sloppy" people are saying they are pretty darn important. At least that is what I was posting to that is. I also could give a flip what everyone else wears. I can tell you this though, I will not date a messy woman. Messy bed, messy head. :sunglass:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Butch shells?

Where does one shop to get these shells?

And me thinking skinny jeans and Harley boots would do.



Are you makin' an effort at being witty?

[Jomore]

Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself and who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are.

Femmes I know would look pretty silly in the kind of clothing I prefer - because it just doesn't fit who they are.

Whether I'm wearing jeans, Tshirt and leather jacket, suit with button down shirt, or a mixture of tailored women's and men's clothing, it always looks just butch enough for me to feel comfortable with.
Clothing is our second skin - so I always want to feel comfortable in my skin.

[Corkey]

Clothes don't define who we are. They are but a expression of our outer shell. I am a human being, I wear cloths that I am comfortable in. Period.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't find anything "silly" about a femme who chooses to wear certain clothing?

Can you clarify what you meant?

[theoddz]

I have to share this here about clothes......

There's 2 very nice people I know at work. One is a guy I work with and the Lady is one of my nurse friends who works over on the Psych ward. I recently have been playing "matchmaker" between these two because I think they'd get on famously together. Both have wonderful personalities and they're both Creole, from the Texas/Louisiana areas. They like the same foods, the same kinds of music and they come from similar cultures and backgrounds, so what's not to love??? :winky:

Now, the woman...my friend Pauline, is a really outgoing, kind, caring and social person and she has this wild 'n crazy sense of humor. She's a dear woman to her very core!! When I was first telling them each about the other, Pauline turns and says to me, about Joe:

"He better not be wearing no K-Mart clothes!!!"

:|

Bah ahahahahahahahaha

Just WHAT, exactly, are "K-Mart clothes"???? :|

People are funny.

:huhlaugh:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[DomnNC]

I don't find anything "silly" about a femme who chooses to wear certain clothing?

Can you clarify what you meant?


I don't get that either Snow. My wife could wear a pair of jeans, t-shirt and leather jacket and rock the hella out of them and was still just as femme as she was when wearing a dress or business suit. That statement was kinda silly in and of itself I think.

[Lynn]

Really Merlin? I can't say I've ever heard that from any of the bf community I know here.

My partner, a butch, would say it. She'd say that butch could be *your* gender, but she doesn't count it as hers. Why is it necessary to speak for the entire "bf community"? The beauty of this site, for me, has been acceptance of each other, not defining one another. Conversely, I've been told by several in the broader b-f world (maybe on here or not?) that I am not a femme, I'm a lesbian, as if they can't both be part of my identity. People tell people what to be all the time, it seems, including when they declare that no one would say butch is not a gender. Why is that any less narrowing than saying it always is??

And, on topic, I don't think that clothing has to be limited by the person's gender identity, or other identities. But, doesn't it usually say something about how the person prefers to present themselves to the world? And, don't people usually want to be "gotten" and understood? I'm no less of a femme in jeans and a t-shirt, because who I am shows through the clothing. At the same time, unlike my partner, I buy all my clothing in the women's department. She enjoys her masculinity and likes to be identified with it. She'll be unlikely to ever wear a dress or high heels.

[Silverseastar]

Clothes are just clothes. Or are they?

In some senses they reflect an inner identity I think. How we wear them and our choices of what to wear do reflect in my opinion an internal state of mind. Now just because I think that does not mean I have judgement around what that internal state of mind may be and how it's expressed (i.e. I really don't judge what you wear but I may not be attracted to it either).

It's a nice idea to think we as a society do not make judgements about appearance but in fact we use those judgements to discriminate every day. As a femme, I'm often and regularly seen as non-lesbian out in the world simply based on appearance. I need to interact differently to make the less obvious distinguishing parts of my identity clear.

So if you want to be "seen" as a butch, there are certainly markers that others look for. Clothing can be one of them. It's not the only one however.

[Chazz]

Are you makin' an effort at being witty?

No, I'm just always on the lookout for fashion tips.

[The_Lady_Snow]

No, I'm just always on the lookout for fashion tips.


Well...

There's always the TMNT look:)

[DapperButch]

I like clothes.

I like "dapper" looking clothes and casual clothes.

I have this weird thing about "wasting" clothes, though. If I am not going anywhere I only want to wear crappy, worn out clothes around the house b/c I don't want to get the "good ones", dirty. "Good ones" are defined by how much I like the clothes, not the newness, "quality" or "dressiness" of them. It really doesn't have to do with not wanting to do laundry, either. I don't know what it is about.

Weird. :blink:

[Corkey]

I like clothes.

I like "dapper" looking clothes and casual clothes.

I have this weird thing about "wasting" clothes, though. If I am not going anywhere I only want to wear crappy, worn out clothes around the house b/c I don't want to get the "good ones", dirty. "Good ones" are defined by how much I like the clothes, not the newness, "quality" or "dressiness" of them.

Is that weird? :blink:


Nope, there are the good cloths to go out in then the indoors garb then the work cloths, last but not least the camping/fishing cloths. As always your mileage may vary.

[EnderD_503]

Clothes are just clothes. Or are they?

In some senses they reflect an inner identity I think. How we wear them and our choices of what to wear do reflect in my opinion an internal state of mind. Now just because I think that does not mean I have judgement around what that internal state of mind may be and how it's expressed (i.e. I really don't judge what you wear but I may not be attracted to it either).

It's a nice idea to think we as a society do not make judgements about appearance but in fact we use those judgements to discriminate every day. As a femme, I'm often and regularly seen as non-lesbian out in the world simply based on appearance. I need to interact differently to make the less obvious distinguishing parts of my identity clear.


Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like. I'm not sure what you mean by interact differently, though. Do you mean simply telling people you're a lesbian if they ask? If so, then I'd agree. But if it means changing how usually interact with people just to fit a certain paradigm, then I'd disagree. I think we need to stomp on all physical and behavioural stereotypes for certain groups of people. If you fit them, fine. If you don't fit them, that should be just as fine.

@Legendryder: Yes, heaven forbid you date a "messy woman." That might cause the sky to fall and all. Fuck, if I only befriended people based on their appearance and how they kept their house I'd be missing out on the most interesting people I've ever met. But hey, do what you like. I just think that kind of prejudice isn't helpful for society as a whole. I prefer to judge people on what they have to say or who they are as people.

[Glenn]

I must say here that I've always had a love/hate relationship with clothes. Speaking strictly for me, I have never wanted to wear female ID clothes. Even when I could have had that dream job/promotion, I would'nt accept it. The same goes for schools, people, etc. A hot date who expected me to look femme for special occassions was likewise shot down, along with the entire relationship. Clothes are also my pride and joy, and clothes defined an important aspect of me, or I could have had a bigger pension. So for better or worse,, clothes have been a huge part of my life-style and Did have a hand in trying to braketh or maketh this Stonebutch.

[asphaltcowboi]

im thinking if you are what you wear i would have to be an old worn out pair of 501s and a harley tee most the time.

[Miss Scarlett]

Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself and who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are.

Femmes I know would look pretty silly in the kind of clothing I prefer - because it just doesn't fit who they are.

Whether I'm wearing jeans, Tshirt and leather jacket, suit with button down shirt, or a mixture of tailored women's and men's clothing, it always looks just butch enough for me to feel comfortable with.
Clothing is our second skin - so I always want to feel comfortable in my skin.

Jomore, i take exception to your post.

i get it that to you femmes would look "pretty silly" in the type of clothes you prefer. But this femme is an extremely feminine woman who can and does wear the very type of clothing you prefer and neither look nor feel silly. In fact, i've been told that the combination of jeans, t-shirt and leather jacket looks pretty darn good on me.

So, you're saying that to you all femmes should dress a certain way? And does this mean that because a don't dress in that certain way she cannot possibly be a femme as far as you are concerned? Are we not all allowed to feel comfortable in our respective skins free from the dictum of others?

Please do enlighten us...

[Jomore]

Ahhh Ms Scarlett!!! Thank you for your vigilance! But not I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations, I'm sure you'd look fine in some of my clothes, wanna come over sand lay dressups wimme?
:D
sorry babe, but nothing to get flakey about, OK? I'm just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy.
Suitably chastened, I won't say anything more on the subject.
Sorry
Jo

[Jomore]

PS
I just like really nice very masculine clothing, that's all.

[chefhottie25]

i can relate to your point about the importance of clothing and how they define us in the world. it is a part of our skin. my clothing selections are very important to me...they help convey my image and my understanding of who i am. i also wanted to respond to your comment about femmes in "butch" clothing. i think some femmes can totally rock "butch" clothing. it brings femme style to idea of what is considered the butch look. it is classic gender bending and that is always positive. questioning and pushing perceived ideas about what is butch and what is femme. deconstructing those binary roles opens up our freedom of expression.


Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself and who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are.

Femmes I know would look pretty silly in the kind of clothing I prefer - because it just doesn't fit who they are.

Whether I'm wearing jeans, Tshirt and leather jacket, suit with button down shirt, or a mixture of tailored women's and men's clothing, it always looks just butch enough for me to feel comfortable with.
Clothing is our second skin - so I always want to feel comfortable in my skin.

[Gayla]

Umm. What's "butch" clothing?

[Bit]

....I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations....

I don't know if it helps any, but that's how I read your post--that you were speaking about a very specific group of femmes, people you know personally.

I know a lot of femmes who wouldn't be caught dead in men's clothes.

[Martina]

i am not what i wear.

[Daktari]

It has been brought to my attention that I appeared to be speaking for the whole of the UK bf community in what I've said in this thread and that the phrase "lezzer-land" is offensive. My apologies to those I offended with this.

[Miss Scarlett]

Ahhh Ms Scarlett!!! Thank you for your vigilance! But not I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations, I'm sure you'd look fine in some of my clothes, wanna come over sand lay dressups wimme?
:D
sorry babe, but nothing to get flakey about, OK? I'm just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy.
Suitably chastened, I won't say anything more on the subject.
Sorry
Jo

Jomore, i appreciate your explanation but not the patronizing and condescending manner with which is delivered.

In addition, your opprobrious use of the terms "babe" and "flakey" cannot be so easily dismissed through your claim of being "...just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy."

You are welcome to send me a PM if you change your mind and wish to discuss this further.

[Bit]

Jomore, i appreciate your explanation but not the patronizing and condescending manner with which is delivered.

Your original post to Jomore came across scathingly condescending and sarcastic, Miss Scarlett, and you had misread and misinterpreted what Jomore actually said.

If it were me who had made such a mistake, I personally would be apologizing for my own rudeness rather than objecting to the answer it got me.

I recently read a thread Medusa started where she asks us all to show some patience and graciousness towards new members. I think that's a good idea. It might save us some embarrasment, especially if the mistake might not be theirs but ours.

[PumaJ]

"Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself & who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are." ~ Jomore

Jomore, hooray for your being an "unrepentant Dandy":-) I tend to agree with your statement regarding clothing serves as a way to communicate certain things about ourselves to others, if for no other reason than that is what the dominant culture & media teaches us about our clothes.

In my view, clothes do not determine gender, though certainly clothes are often used as a way to give a visual representation of one's gender. The style of that representation is really a matter of personal preference. Using myself as an example, I am a very "girly" Femme, a High Femme. Sometimes, I really amp it up, especially if I'm going out to some sort of social event. The style I choose to rock depends on the event. Even on an average day, when I am dressed "down" in T-shirt & pants, if I am going out to do anything at all, anything, even grocery shopping, on goes some makeup & jewelry bling, because that is what feels good to me. Now, if I am staying home & chillin' well...different story. Once, when going out to a party, I borrowed a shirt & tie from my partner at the time & put them on with a pair of my Levis. Did I look like a Butch? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha... no way in h..ll! Everyone loved my "high fashion" statement though & thought I looked quite fly.

Once a long time ago, not long after I'd become lovers with a most handsome Butch, I noticed that sometimes she wore women's undies & sometimes even some mascara. "Hmm," I thought, "what's up with that?" So, I very gently asked her about it. I said something like, "Honey, are you more comfortable wearing women's undies & puttin' on mascara?"

To which she answered that no, she wasn't, not really. I asked, "Oh? So why do you then?"

Her answer was that her ex. thought it was weird that she wanted to wear men's briefs & no makeup because she "is a woman after all".

"Oh, really?" I said. Well, my lover was probably an 81/2 or 9 on the masculine of center spectrum & that girly stuff just didn't feel or look right to me. So, I said, "Honey, no offense, but you know you kind of look like you're in drag when you wear women's undies & mascara."

"Really? You think so? Kind of feels that way to me. Won't it bother you if I wear men's briefs?"

"Honey, I suspect that given that you are so Butch, what feels comfortable
most likely includes men's briefs, shirts, pants, socks, jackets, coats, hats...and the like. So, of course, you get to wear any & all of that. Plus, honestly, that is part of what makes me weak in the knees over Butches."

Tears...there were tears in her eyes. She just looked at me then said, "You get it, don't you? You really get it & you like it."

"Yes, darlin', I get it & I most definitely like it."

We are who we are. Clothes do not determine that. Some of us may pay more attention to what we put on in terms of specific style or fashion & really get into using our clothes to express aspects of ourselves, & to look fly, but some of us don't. Either way, we are who we are as women who are masculine of center or femme of center.

BTW, Jomore, my panties haven't been put in a twist by the manner in which you have expressed yourself because 1) I totally grokked what you were saying, 2) I didn't perceive any animosity in your words, & 3) I've learned that many times it is easy to misinterpret what others write in net land when all we have is text to express ourselves & not all of us are fab wordsmiths. :blueheels:

[Thinker]

Ahhh Ms Scarlett!!! Thank you for your vigilance! But not I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations, I'm sure you'd look fine in some of my clothes, wanna come over sand lay dressups wimme?
:D
sorry babe, but nothing to get flakey about, OK? I'm just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy.
Suitably chastened, I won't say anything more on the subject.
Sorry
Jo

Jomore, i appreciate your explanation but not the patronizing and condescending manner with which is delivered.

In addition, your opprobrious use of the terms "babe" and "flakey" cannot be so easily dismissed through your claim of being "...just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy."

You are welcome to send me a PM if you change your mind and wish to discuss this further.



Your original post to Jomore came across scathingly condescending and sarcastic, Miss Scarlett, and you had misread and misinterpreted what Jomore actually said.

If it were me who had made such a mistake, I personally would be apologizing for my own rudeness rather than objecting to the answer it got me.

I recently read a thread Medusa started where she asks us all to show some patience and graciousness towards new members. I think that's a good idea. It might save us some embarrasment, especially if the mistake might not be theirs but ours.

I just want to settle all of this down before things get too heated.

The mod team actually appreciates the heck out of members handling these kinds of exchanges amongst themselves. It's a step on the way, we hope, to more civil discourse on these boards.

Jo, your use of the terms 'babe' and 'flakey' are understandably offensive; that particular sentence sounded pretty patronizing.

Miss Scarlett, it does appear you read something different into what Jo was saying about femmes s/he (unsure of pronoun preference) knows. We do appreciate you offering to continue the conversation via PM.

Bit, you're right; we should all work a little harder to make new members feel welcome.......particularly those who are knew to the b/f community in general. Your address to Miss Scarlett probably sounded a little more terse than it needed to, so we encourage you to think about that in future postings. If you see a post you find highly offensive and feel you might not be able to have a constructive exchange with the individual, feel free to report it and allow the mod team to look over the post.

Seriously, thank you all for working to handle the misunderstandings amongst yourselves. It is greatly appreciated.

Please do not derail further by responding to this moderation in the thread. If you have pertinent questions regarding this, shoot me a private message. :)

Thinker (moderator)

[Silverseastar]

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like. I'm not sure what you mean by interact differently, though. Do you mean simply telling people you're a lesbian if they ask? If so, then I'd agree. But if it means changing how usually interact with people just to fit a certain paradigm, then I'd disagree. I think we need to stomp on all physical and behavioural stereotypes for certain groups of people. If you fit them, fine. If you don't fit them, that should be just as fine.



Hi EnderD,

I'm happy to have whomever do whatever they please in almost all aspects of life, clothing included. I also agree that working on breaking stereotypes is fantastic in theory. However we as humans use stereotypes to make discriminatory judgements, necessary ones, all the time. Therefore I find it highly unlikely that we will be doing away with them anytime soon.

For example, if I know what "butch" looks like it helps me to know how to relate. If a butch dresses in feminine clothing, but calls themselves butch, I will have a hard time knowing how to approach/relate to them. I say this because there are distinct ways of being in the world and relating to others that my butch friends and lover have that differ from my femme experience.

As a femme when I say interact differently, I mean for myself, having to put myself out there as a lesbian yes. To be "seen" as such I need to be more obviously gay. That includes stating upfront that I am when asked. It also means being willing to approach the butches I'm interested in. Knowing who to look for helps.

[Chancie]

I personally love a yummy butch in worn out jeans and a button down shirt but

Just because I see someone who appears to be female bodied, wearing worn out jeans and a button down shirt,

That doesn't mean that they identify as a butch.

Just as I don't care to be pigeon holed based on my attire,

I choose not to make assumptions about someone's gender based on their aesthetic and practical choices.

:canoworms:

[Silverseastar]

I agree, it is not good to make assumptions based solely on clothing. My goodness can you imagine all the errors in judgement that could cause?

I do think it can give some clues however on who to approach and the rest is a delicate finding out from there. That's the truly fun part!

Even clothing choices make a difference in who one is attracted to even as expressed by this thread. Some like casual, some dressier, some a mixture of both. I think we'd be being dishonest with ourselves if we say it doesn't.

[JustJo]

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like.

Had a funny experience about this just the other day...

Ever since Scoote and I started house-hunting, we've been dealing with realtors, mortgage brokers, etc. together. We say "my partner" when referring to each other. We hold hands. We talk about our kids. It's pretty apparent to everyone that we're a couple.

Through that entire time, we had no negative feedback at all. Total acceptance.

Last week, the A/C repair guy had to come service the central air. I was out picking up my son when he arrived, so he talked to Scoote. She was wearing cargo shorts, a sleeveless shirt....both from the men's department no doubt...and a baseball cap. Since stuff was in my name, she did the "my partner" thing. He was fine, as everyone has been, and went to work.

Not long after, I pulled up with Rooster. I started talking to him while I was still in the car (since he was in the driveway getting tools from his truck). When I stepped out, he did a momentary "freeze, double-take, reset" and then kept talking.

I guess he didn't expect the other half of the "lesbian couple" to be wearing a flowered dress that went to mid-calf. :giggle:

My feeling is what Gloria Steinem said when people commented on how good she looked "for her age" when she turned 40 (at a time when women tended to lie about their age on principle)....."this is what 40 looks like."

Well, "this is what gay looks like".....my version. Everyone else has their own.....dapper or sloppy, femme or butch, or somewhere in between. I'm all about being yourself, however that looks.

[LaneyDoll]

In my experience over on this side of the pond, people have said such things--or the equivalent: that a femme cannot wear men's clothing without magically turning herself into a butch--because they have rigid ideas about the meaning of "butch" and "femme." Some people have been open to a discussion and to broadening that definition; some people have used it as a wall of defense to avoid talking about it, a way to categorize and dismiss me.

~smiles~

These people have obviously NEVER seen me in men's clothing. I have a sexy as Hell, black on black suit that I wear when I want to attract extra attention and I can assure you that I have never been mistaken for a butch woman.

Ideas should be flexible, and minds open.

;)

[LaneyDoll]

I personally love a yummy butch in worn out jeans and a button down shirt...

Yummy visual!!!