Pressurised to transition.

[Merlin]

Alot of butches I know are going through gender re-assignment surgery to become male,they are at varying stages of this.

My question is this :
Butches have you ever felt pressurised to have a sex change?

Have you ever felt it off other butches/transguys who want you to follow the path they have set ?

Everyone welcome to answer but I would like to hear off the butches too.

[dark_crystal]

Alot of butches I know are going through gender re-assignment surgery to become male,they are at varying stages of this.

My question is this :
Butches have you ever felt pressurised to have a sex change?

Have you ever felt it off other butches/transguys who want you to follow the path they have set ?

Everyone welcome to answer but I would like to hear off the butches too.

You go first! Do you feel pressured?

[Corkey]

First Butch is a gender and so is Transgendered, they are not the same. So if a Butch feels they want to transition to an FtM, then their gender is fluctuating.

I don't feel pressured by any of my TG or FtM friends. We're all individuals and we all have different life knowledge.

[Dreamer]

None of my TG or FtM friends have ever pressured me into transitioning. They have all spoken openly and honestly about what they have been through or what they are going through.
As Corkey said we are all individuals and everyone I know respects the choices made as well as respecting everyone for who they are.

[Lynn]

Not a butch, but...

my partner, who considers herself to be a butch woman, considers her gender to be female, not butch. It really depends upon the person. I am femme, but that isn't *my* gender. Others may identify differently. My partner is a butch woman whose sexual preference is feminine women or femmes.

As a butch woman, with very masculine qualities, she felt pressured to transition when she was in her twenties. Not from peer pressure from others, but due to her religious upbringing. She felt that it was sinful for her to be a woman, desiring other women. She felt that if she transitioned she would then be a man, and her desire for women wouldn't be a sin. Simplistic view, maybe, but that was her reality at the time. Fortunately, as she came to develop her own truths and beliefs, she became more accepting of herself, and now says she's glad that she didn't transition, as she loves being a woman who partners with other women.

[Strappie]

I have a few FTM and TG friends. I can honestly say they have NEVER even spoken to me in such a manor. That would be like someone telling me I should become straight. Nobody has ever asked me to become straight.

In my opinion: If someone is putting pressure on you to "transition" they are NOT right in the head.

Now if they are asking me questions about "who" I am, that is much different then pressuring me to "transition."

[AtLast]

This is a very sensitive issue. Personally, I have not felt this pressure from trans guys online or in real time. I have had an association with transgendered people since the 1960's. And I have an intergendered first cousin. This has been part of my life for a very long time. Yet, as a non-trans FIB, I claim no expertise around issues such as this.

I have, however, felt some pressure from femmes to transition. Now, these are femmes from real-time dating and not one of them (there are 3) are members here. I know that this is also a sensitive statement, as well. I mean no negativity toward any femme by this.

I can also say that I have dated a couple of femmes that wanted to know if I had considered transitioning and were very clear that if I was, they were not for me (again, not members here). LOL, dating again has been pretty crazy! Right now, I ham taking a break from it.

To be honest, I have never quite been able to come to any conclusions about this. It might be related to my living in a region where there are greater numbers of queers of every kind and a center for a lot of services for transgendered people. The question might just come up more because of this. And perhaps many femmes here are just more familiar with transitioning overall and have just thought more about relating to a Transperson. I don't know.

I used to be troubled by this. I'm not any longer. As gender is more understood outside of the traditional binary, I believe there will be more conversation about it. I view this as positive. Seems like a natural occurrence to me. But, these are only my thoughts from personal experience up to this point in my life. I can be upset if the nature of my butch identity as a woman is negated by someone.

I do, however, feel it is very important for anyone that feels any type of pressure about transitioning (or anything else, for that matter) speak out and hold their personal boundaries in place. That does not mean being rude or relying on or perpetuating any stereotypes about transgendered people.

[Corkey]

I have to also say that there are Stone Butches, some of who have top surgery and some who don't. They are not transitioning either.
I hope you take a look in the forums on the gender threads to get a better understanding of how genders are thought and discussed. It's very useful to folks who are new to the site.

[atomiczombie]

Before I started my transition, no one every pressured me or suggested to me that I should do so. And I have never, and will never pressure or suggest to anyone that they be anything other than who they feel they are.

Sorry for responding since I'm not a butch, but I used to ID as one a few years ago.

[Soon]

My husband was never pressured. He felt, in his late forties, that it was about high time that he lived for himself and lived--outwardly--as the man he has always been--inside.

[CherylNYC]

This is a very sensitive issue. Personally, I have not felt this pressure from trans guys online or in real time. I have had an association with transgendered people since the 1960's. And I have an intergendered first cousin. This has been part of my life for a very long time. Yet, as a non-trans FIB, I claim no expertise around issues such as this.

I have, however, felt some pressure from femmes to transition. Now, these are femmes from real-time dating and not one of them (there are 3) are members here. I know that this is also a sensitive statement, as well. I mean no negativity toward any femme by this...



I'm really sorry this happened to you, ALH. To be honest, I've heard conversations amongst femme women in which they changed preferred pronouns to male against the expressed preferences of the butch woman they were discussing. I've also heard femmes put subtle pressure on butches to ID as male. It's not quite the same thing as pressuring a butch to transition, but I think it's on the continuum. If I witness this I never let it go. It's my nature to challenge that kind of disrespect.

The worst incidences I've witnessed of pressuring butches to transition came from a very good FTM friend of mine who has transitioned and lives his life fully as a male. I have heard him tell butch women that they should transition because T is such a great drug, or because their lives would be easier as men, etc. He's even suggested that I take T. No, he was not joking. He seems to believe that T is some kind of health tonic. We've had huge fights over this, and I've warned him not to risk losing my respect. Hopefully I've heard the last of it. We're still friends because I consider him family, but his relentless pressure against butch women has occasionally endangered his status in my life.

I've also witnessed very young people pressuring each other to transition. Because it's cool. Yes, it's true. I live in NYC where there's a subculture and plenty of information about how to obtain street T.

So, the answer is YES. It happens, and it sucks. Just like Strappie wrote, it's no different than pressuring a person to be straight.

[Heart]

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.

I will say that I have, over the years, witnessed online a kind of pressure from some femmes towards butches to be the "men of the community," which horrified me. (What is wrong with being the BUTCHES of the community??)

I will also say that I know numerous transmen who get it -- who have no interest in "converting" butches and respect and honor them for who they are.

And the last thing I'll say is that some butches I know are 3rd gender and others are women. Woman and butch are not, have never been, and never will be mutually exclusive of each other.

Heart

[BullDog]

What Heart says resonates with me. It's not really just a question of do you or do not feel pressured to transition. It's more the "pressure cooker" she describes. The conflation of butch with male/man drives me insane. The conflation of masculine with male drives me insane. This comes from within butch femme communities.

Also within butch femme communities, the definition of woman seems to get narrower and narrower to the point where so many butches feel they don't fit the definition of woman. I claim woman. I am invested in expanding what woman is and can be. To me that is liberating for myself and hopefully helps other women feel liberated as well (not just butch women). I would like to see as much exploration of what woman can be and mean in terms of gender as much as seems to be paid to male/masculine.

This pressure cooker is not coming just from transmen or just femmes- it comes from all genders in the bf community.

In the outside world, visibly queer/lesbian butches have to face the world both as queers and women (and women going against the grain to boot).

So, there's lots of factors going into this, not just yes or no to transition.

Thank you very much for your post, Heart.

[Strappie]

I know a fem whom use to use the trump card to piss a butch off or be hateful towards them buy using "your not ever going to be butch enough for a fem" I know it's made some question who they are. I also think that it does put pressure on some insecure butches as to who they are. I have never condoned this behavior. Nor will I allow it to happen in my presence!

It's harsh and so wrong!!

[1PlayfulFemme]

I think where pressure exists is very rarely in the verbal realm. It's not like someone calls every day saying "You need to transistion". I have certainly seen butch friends of mine feel pressured into identifying male because their friends did, or a femme wanted them to (regardless of whether that identity was mental or physically changing).

I have friends who i.d. male. Period. No one pressured them, no one could pressure them. I also have friends who aren't sure where their i.d. exists. (which only they can decide..when they are ready). I have friends who have completed the transformation, others who have just begun and still others who are happy just where they are.

For me, if you are feeling pressured to change your very identity, you need to look at the people/circumstances that are making you feel that way. If you feel like you should be a man, or that you ARE a man (on the inside - where it counts), that's one thing entirely. If you feel like you are a woman and you don't want to transistion, then don't. Identify as female.

Only you know what lies inside yourself. And if people really care about you, it doesn't matter if you are male i.d'ed, female i.d'ed, male, female, or somewhere in the middle. As long as you are happy - and secure in your own identity.

When you love and accept yourself fully, others opinions about you don't seem as important as they once did. You are the one that will have to live with any choice you make for whatever period of time in your life that choice affects you....so do what's right for your soul. Your happiness is bound to follow!!!

(Just my .02) *flips coin into the conversation*

[AtLast]

I have to also say that there are Stone Butches, some of who have top surgery and some who don't. They are not transitioning either.
I hope you take a look in the forums on the gender threads to get a better understanding of how genders are thought and discussed. It's very useful to folks who are new to the site.

So true. And I know FIBs that have had or are considering top surgery.

It sure can be confusing- plain complicated. The Planet gives space to so many issues, topics, processes, and gender ideology. I hope new members take a look and I also hope we all understand that many folks may just not have had much about transgender and intergender information or people around them. I know I have to be careful not to assume that every person on the site has this experience or knowledge.

I am always learning something from the site and our diverse membership. And hell, I'm old!!

Addition- there is a thread about the upcoming Butch Voices Conference in Oakland. I went to the first one a couple of years ago. I will attend this one and I highly recommend this to members. The organization has multuple events around the US (or has in the past). Really covers all aspects of gender and a good way to learn about trans issues as well as butch issues- covers all of us!! www.butchvoices.com

[Merlin]

Other forums I am on have had alot of butches who have gone through or are going through gender re-assignment.

Like I said previously the butch/femme community is tiny and close to dying out.

Afraid I don't sit on the fence when I have something on my mind.

It's not that I feel pressured to change,i don't want to am more than happy in my skin.

It's more the fact that society would like me to change,so they can feel more "comfortable" with who I am.

[Turtle]

There have been times in my life when I wanted to have surgery and now I do not. Nobody has said anything, but there have been transguys who have given off a stink that I was not good enough or "real" for not having surgery or taking T.

And I have gotten to the "fuck 'em" stage. I'm me and I don't need to be accepted by you and it's unfortunate that they can't be more respectful of other folks.

[iamkeri1]

I too am in the "old" group, so listen up because I have some good advice for y'all. I am a femme who has spent more than half of her life partnered to FTM's, and I would NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER (I can't say it enough) encourage ANYONE to transition. It is the hardest thing that any person could ever go through, and for the partner, I speculate that it is even harder than it is for the person who transitions.

If you genuinely feel displaced in your body or your spirit, then transitioning will be one high after another for you. BUT - it will still be the hardest thing you will ever do.

To any femmes (or anyone else for that matter) who may encourage or pressure your friends, partners, acquaintences to transition, PLEASE stop. Almost all relationships end when one of the partners transition. In fact most end right away when one partner expresses the desire to transition. When my late husband transitioned, we were in a support group that included about fifty couples, both FTM and MTF. Out of these fifty couples only two survived the transition. My husband and I were one, the other was a couple that began their lives together as Gay men, and one of them transitioned MTF. They are a wonderfully loving couple and I am still friends with them .

I could go on for three hours about all the hard painful things that happen when your partner transitions, but you can find that information elsewhere. I loved my husband with everything I had in me, and he returned my love at least that strongly. He has been dead for seven plus years and I am still not fully recovered ... Not from losing him and not from losing me. Cause that's what happened when he transitioned. I transitioned too - from gay to straight.

Finding my way back to myself, or rather TO my new self has been a long complicated (though sometimes exciting) journey.

Finding oneself is hard and is a journey that continues throughout ones life. Let people find their own selves. Don't push them in any direction. The world had room for every variation on the gender spectrum. Make room for everyone as they are and as they evolve ON THEIR OWN.
Smooches,
Keri

[Corkey]

I thought about this last night as I was falling blissfully asleep.
It's about maturity, the knowledge of self and being secure enough in ones self. No one can pressure anyone into anything if that person is secure enough in knowing who they are. It's as simple as that.

Just be you!

[Chazz]

I am a 3rd gendered butch who has come to be comfortable in my woman body. Such was not always the case because of the "pressure cooker" effect that Heart speaks of so eloquently.

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Absolutely ! ! ! ! This will continue to happen as long as behavior is gendered. Clothing, hair cuts, career choices, childhood preferences in toys, etc., too.

Gender constructs (gay, straight, or otherwise), are the root cause of this. Existing constructs, from whatever quarter, are arbitrary and subjective; wholly idiosyncratic. No gender self-concept is ever entirely free from external influences. Humans are social animals; none of us live in a vacuum.

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker.

Or, just plain silly.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. Including, my past relationships.

The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

[DapperButch]

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

[AtLast]

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.

I will say that I have, over the years, witnessed online a kind of pressure from some femmes towards butches to be the "men of the community," which horrified me. (What is wrong with being the BUTCHES of the community??)

I will also say that I know numerous transmen who get it -- who have no interest in "converting" butches and respect and honor them for who they are.

And the last thing I'll say is that some butches I know are 3rd gender and others are women. Woman and butch are not, have never been, and never will be mutually exclusive of each other.

Heart


Thank you Heart for this post. Puts it into the fluid perspective it is.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with what you state about what Butches go through here and often in real time within our own community. Yes, Transmen "get us" on a whole other level than many femmes (probably part of why I don't feel pressure from them to transition). They get the bathroom garbage, and threats (or actual) violence we deal with- all of it. At least transmen I relate to. Part of this is because they have lived it, but I think they just have a deeper sensitivity about such things due to gender identity struggles.


The pressure cooker you site is very real for me as a FIB- and I know these feelings exist for MIBs and 3rd Gendered butches as well.

I want to be accepted for who I am in this body and mind of mine, period. I love my body as it is (LOL, sure, a bit of nostalgia for it in younger form comes up). I love the balance and integration of feminine & masculine (if I have to use these terms- anima & animus fit better I feel- even yin & yang- two-spirit is good) as a butch woman.

Something I need to state, however, is that I do understand some of issues that femmes go through that are with transmen- and why at times, they feel put down or not accepted. It would do us well to be more sensitive to all factors that people go through. No matter their identity.

I really just want to be the butch I am and be accepted…. it is hard enough dealing with what goes on in real-time. It hasn't been very long at all since the last time I was threatened with violence.

[AtLast]

I'm really sorry this happened to you, ALH. To be honest, I've heard conversations amongst femme women in which they changed preferred pronouns to male against the expressed preferences of the butch woman they were discussing. I've also heard femmes put subtle pressure on butches to ID as male. It's not quite the same thing as pressuring a butch to transition, but I think it's on the continuum. If I witness this I never let it go. It's my nature to challenge that kind of disrespect.

The worst incidences I've witnessed of pressuring butches to transition came from a very good FTM friend of mine who has transitioned and lives his life fully as a male. I have heard him tell butch women that they should transition because T is such a great drug, or because their lives would be easier as men, etc. He's even suggested that I take T. No, he was not joking. He seems to believe that T is some kind of health tonic. We've had huge fights over this, and I've warned him not to risk losing my respect. Hopefully I've heard the last of it. We're still friends because I consider him family, but his relentless pressure against butch women has occasionally endangered his status in my life.

I've also witnessed very young people pressuring each other to transition. Because it's cool. Yes, it's true. I live in NYC where there's a subculture and plenty of information about how to obtain street T.

So, the answer is YES. It happens, and it sucks. Just like Strappie wrote, it's no different than pressuring a person to be straight.

Thank you. It really hurts to hear other butches making what they have had happen to them known. I couldn't lie about my experiences and transmen, but I see the posts and it just plain hurts.

What can we do as a community about this?

[Daywalker]

What can we do?
:thinking:

We can hold true to ourselves, and just give a nod of recognition to those
who are heading towards their life Transition...knowing that ours
has/will/may most likely play out differently.

A mutal respect of Journeys.
:yeahthat:
But the first ink-ling that stirs within you that feels the need to "keep up
with the...masculinity" ~ that needs to be examined. It is not a competition,
it's supposed to be something for others to celebrate and for their Family
and Friends to accept. Transition is a many Splendid term for what
goes on inside and outside of our minds and Spirits.
:coffee:

If you are competitive by nature, be careful to examine this if you
feel 'pressured' by others that are doing their best to meet their
ideals of reaching the (masculine) match
between their minds and bodies.

:moonstars:

:daywalker:

[Greyson]

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

[AtLast]

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

Your entire post brings up important distinction- but the last statement really strikes me. Neither is very easy and no matter the negative things that may have happened to any of us, "get" this statement. And there are the issues born of the "normative structures" that femmes deal with.

I do have transmen real-time friends (fully transitioned)that feel more at peace in terms of gender, but not like life is less complicated.

I only hope as we going along the way, we figure out more constructive and positive ways to relate to each and and as a population that is a grouping of sub-cultures within a sub-culture within the outside, normative oppression we have all felt.

I think this makes sense.

[CherylNYC]

I'm glad that everyone who has posted here agrees that it's a really bad idea to pressure a butch to transition. Some butches have been unlucky enough to encounter others without your level of respect for who they are.

I had a wonderful conversation with Dykumentary at an event we attended over the weekend. I asked her about the short film she made which documents an experience she had with a mental health professional. She reaffirmed to me that the film is autobiographical and a faithful recreation of her experience.

Dykumentary identifies as a butch woman, but the counselor insisted that she must have Gender Identity Disorder because she dresses in men's clothes.

Dykumentary gave me permission to post this here:


"The link to the video about getting pressured to admit being trans is at:
YouTube - ‪My Crazy Boxers‬‏

[AtLast]

I'm glad that everyone who has posted here agrees that it's a really bad idea to pressure a butch to transition. Some butches have been unlucky enough to encounter others without your level of respect for who they are.

I had a wonderful conversation with Dykumentary at an event we attended over the weekend. I asked her about the short film she made which documents an experience she had with a mental health professional. She reaffirmed to me that the film is autobiographical and a faithful recreation of her experience.

Dykumentary identifies as a butch woman, but the counselor insisted that she must have Gender Identity Disorder because she dresses in men's clothes.

Dykumentary gave me permission to post this here:


"The link to the video about getting pressured to admit being trans is at:
YouTube - ‪My Crazy Boxers‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WvtkCOd33s)

This so addresses how I feel at times with continued questioning about my gender- my being a masculine woman and one that feels quite comfortable being so. And it deeply saddens (and angers) me as a licensed clinician (retired) that a therapist did this! In fact it is something that ought to be reported to the licensing board as mal-practice.

This is exactly the kind of thing that could push a butch into transitioning when they are not transgendered or intergendered. I have talked with other butches that have experienced this type of "peer" pressure or what it really is- simply more pushing of a person to conform to the binary due to another person not being able to accept any deviation from what is traditionally defined as male or female, masculine or feminine. A "real" woman cannot possible look like me or other female bodied and minded women! And of course, we MUST have some pathological inability not be able to "see" we are not women, but men! We are the ones that have faulty gender self identification, not the other way around!

Until the many "faces" of gender is truly understood by society at large (and even within our corner of queerdom), we are all negatively affected by gender ignorance. Butches, femmes, transpeople, intergendered people, and third gender individuals. And there are even more gender types being researched and theorized about.

I have looked at my own gender identity in many ways since the 1960's when first knowing a trans teen friend. I've looked and questioned and pondered and have always come to the conclusion that I am a woman through and through. But not the kind of woman that is recognized as a woman without doubt or presumption- other people's doubt, not my own.

I heard a very sad srory from a femme I dated a couple of years ago about a butch that transitioned (had top surgery along with taking T for several years) that was going through hell because she (reverted to female pronounds) felt she made a mistake and was caught up in a kind of "fad." At that point, she was going through a lot of pain because the very people that supported (and according to her) and she felt pressured by to transition (they were/had) turned their backs on her as a friend. Now, I never met this person and my info is second hand, so I never had a discussion with her. But this felt really awful to me. I don't know how it all ended up for her. At that time, she was going to stop the T and hopefully have more surgeries to revert back to a female bodied person according to what I was told. Since she lives in SF, it appeared that she was able to find some support with what she wanted to do. I hope so. I doubt that this is common- especially after actually having surgery. But, it does bring to light the subject of this thread and things that are really important to take a look at. And like I said, I cannot possibly have all the facts.

[PumaJ]

I have talked with other butches that have experienced this type of "peer" pressure or what it really is- simply more pushing of a person to conform to the binary due to another person not being able to accept any deviation from what is traditionally defined as male or female, masculine or feminine. A "real" woman cannot possible look like me or other female bodied and minded women! And of course, we MUST have some pathological inability not be able to "see" we are not women, but men! We are the ones that have faulty gender self identification, not the other way around!

AtLastHome, I appreciate the many fine points you've made. Perhaps we are seeing a version of misogyny in action. IDK...

I've had some conversations with a few of the masculine of center (MOC) women I know about the subject of FTM transitions. Most stand very strong in their female masculinity, and whether they ID as Butch, Boi, or Two-Spirit, they each see themselves as being a 3rd gender, alongside dominant culture's tradition of gender binary. That is, being neither female or male, but rather both at once, in female form. In my conversations we've spoken about their individual comfort levels in relation to the various aspects of their female anatomies. None of them are 100% comfortable with all of their parts, but only one has talked about undergoing a FTM transition. Another two have spoken about wanting breast reductions, but not mastectomies. We have talked about the number of younger MOC women making FTM transitions & some of the pressure my friends have perceived that encourages FTM transition. For the most part, except for one long time Butch friend, none of them are very happy with what they see going on. They don't disparage those for whom transition is due to truly feeling as though they are a male trapped in female form. It's just they don't view being a MOC woman as the same thing as being a male trapped in female form.

As a High Femme who is only romantically & sexually attracted to women who are quite MOC, it is my observation & experience that the infusion of strong female masculine energy through the female form is a very powerful combination. Just as it's opposite, the infusion of male femininity through the male form is very powerful. Cultures in other places & times have recognized the power of such combinations, resulting in the acceptance of multigendered societies/cultures. In some, 3rd, 4th, 5th gendered persons have been held in high regard as a result of being multigendered.

As a long time feminist, I am of the view that each individual woman is the only one who gets to determine the way/ways in which she expresses herself as a woman in the world. In that view, I am including all women be they femme, butch, boi, stud, AG, or no particular ID beyond female. I feel frustrated & sometimes angry at those who try to impose their personal understanding or version of being female onto someone else.

If my use of the pronoun she has offended anyone, I apologize. I mean no disrespect, or lack of recognition to those who use alternative pronouns. I suspect I'm being semantically lazy in finding it easier to just use she, today. I do recognize other pronouns & do use them in personal speech when indicated.

[hpychick]

Pressurised? Really? Sorry for the derail. :|

[Liam]

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

I never experienced any outside pressure to transition, it was all internal; nor have I pressured anyone to transition.

I never questioned myself about being butch enough, nor did anyone else. You are not alone, Dapper.

[julieisafemme]

Pressurised? Really? Sorry for the derail. :|

I am not sure why you felt the need to post this? This is an interesting and serious thread and if you want to make fun of someone's choice of words maybe you could have done it privately.

[AtLast]

AtLastHome, I appreciate the many fine points you've made. Perhaps we are seeing a version of misogyny in action. IDK...

I've had some conversations with a few of the masculine of center (MOC) women I know about the subject of FTM transitions. Most stand very strong in their female masculinity, and whether they ID as Butch, Boi, or Two-Spirit, they each see themselves as being a 3rd gender, alongside dominant culture's tradition of gender binary. That is, being neither female or male, but rather both at once, in female form. In my conversations we've spoken about their individual comfort levels in relation to the various aspects of their female anatomies. None of them are 100% comfortable with all of their parts, but only one has talked about undergoing a FTM transition. Another two have spoken about wanting breast reductions, but not mastectomies. We have talked about the number of younger MOC women making FTM transitions & some of the pressure my friends have perceived that encourages FTM transition. For the most part, except for one long time Butch friend, none of them are very happy with what they see going on. They don't disparage those for whom transition is due to truly feeling as though they are a male trapped in female form. It's just they don't view being a MOC woman as the same thing as being a male trapped in female form.

As a High Femme who is only romantically & sexually attracted to women who are quite MOC, it is my observation & experience that the infusion of strong female masculine energy through the female form is a very powerful combination. Just as it's opposite, the infusion of male femininity through the male form is very powerful. Cultures in other places & times have recognized the power of such combinations, resulting in the acceptance of multigendered societies/cultures. In some, 3rd, 4th, 5th gendered persons have been held in high regard as a result of being multigendered.

As a long time feminist, I am of the view that each individual woman is the only one who gets to determine the way/ways in which she expresses herself as a woman in the world. In that view, I am including all women be they femme, butch, boi, stud, AG, or no particular ID beyond female. I feel frustrated & sometimes angry at those who try to impose their personal understanding or version of being female onto someone else.

If my use of the pronoun she has offended anyone, I apologize. I mean no disrespect, or lack of recognition to those who use alternative pronouns. I suspect I'm being semantically lazy in finding it easier to just use she, today. I do recognize other pronouns & do use them in personal speech when indicated.

I appreciate this post very much- it gets to some things that I may "feel" but don't always know exactly how to express.

Absolutely 3rd gender theory and interpretation fits in with some of what I want to express. Two-Spirit philosophy and the core of the spiritual within gender identity (the Egyptian "Gender tree" falls into the equation here for me also) is something that touches me personally (just me, can't put this on others). I feel like gender theory advances (and will continue to give) some internal peace in many ways even as a FIB or MOC. This is a good thing! Also, it has certainly helped many of my trans and intergendered friends and a family member some peace and hopefully, tranquility and a space for joy in this life.

Yes, "a version of misogyny in action" comes to mind for me during these discussions- and not just as it relates to women- to men as well. It just has always seemed to me that misogyny is a lose-lose-lose construct.

One of the positive aspects of how gender theory is evolving is that finally, it encompasses gender outside of traditional (and stereotypic) notions of male-female, masculine-feminine- going to 3rd gender, two spirit, etc. and creates a space for women like me! My personal gender identification is as a woman and female with masculine physical traits that are adjunctive (without any values attached to this at all) in many ways.

What is rather interesting, however, is that a model going back to Kinsey in 1948 still describes more accurately than any other myself as a gender-blended female person that is individually-based. (http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/IJT/97-03/numbers/symposion/ijtc0102.htm#An individually-based gender continuum). Although, there are many newer hypotheses, some delving into we non-trans folks that could bring further peace and tranquility. Well, except for the outside world we have to deal with!

[Legendryder]

I have never been pressured to transition or been given any flack for not being butch enough. I really feel sorry for those who have. I do not know if I consider myself lucky or just have not been paying attention. Either way, I feel it is wrong to question how someone feels in their own skin. We all go through changes in our lives, we grow, develop and in some cases regress. At least for me, I feel different now than I did when I was twenty, or thirty or even forty. Through it all, I have felt one thing: Butch. That has always been an constant.

[hpychick]

juliesafemme,

I'm not sure why you felt the need to call me out without understanding what I meant. I asked a question.

What I didn't ask for was your snarky comment, which incidentally, you could have done privately, and saved yourself some embarrassment. Oddly, not everyone comes from the same place of negativity as you.

That is all.

I am not sure why you felt the need to post this? This is an interesting and serious thread and if you want to make fun of someone's choice of words maybe you could have done it privately.

[hpychick]

My question was this:

Do you really feel pressurized? Being put in a pressure cooker and cooked until all semblance of the original being has been pressured and steamed out of you? Mine was a shorter version, "Pressurized? Really?"

My derail comment was because it wasn't dealing directly with the posts and was off-the-topic so to speak. I was getting back to the basics. I'll use more words next time so that it's clear on the question I'm posing.

And yes, my comment to julie was personal, and I addressed it to her as such, "julieisafemme."

And yes, I am defensive about it because I thought it was rude and didn't need to be posted there - she displayed the very insensitivity of which she was accusing me.

And, thank you June for moderating. :)

[Linus]

My question was this:

Do you really feel pressurized? Being put in a pressure cooker and cooked until all semblance of the original being has been pressured and steamed out of you? Mine was a shorter version, "Pressurized? Really?"



I did a google search of " define pressurized" (it can be spelled with either the s or z) and noticed that the informal definition includes "excessive stress" or as, "undue harassment", as listed here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pressurized

I think that there are instances where butches may be "pressured" to transition or, perhaps even in certain scenarios, feel like they must transition because they do not feel "butch enough". Does it happen to every butch? No but I di believe that some feel that they must in order to "compete".

[Converse]

Alot of butches I know are going through gender re-assignment surgery to become male,they are at varying stages of this.

My question is this :
Butches have you ever felt pressurised to have a sex change?

Have you ever felt it off other butches/transguys who want you to follow the path they have set ?

Everyone welcome to answer but I would like to hear off the butches too.

Yes during several stages in my life. The first time in my youth when I experienced a severe backlash from the mainstream lesbian community towards Butch/Femme identities and in looking for a place to belong, and escape feelings of isolation, found myself gravitating towards the gay male culture- and because of my involvement in the entertainment industry eventually found that my entire circle of friends were made up of people in varying stages of transition, primarily MTF. The constant “when are you going to choose?” conversations, and “Butch is just pretend” statements that happened within this group, created another type of isolation for me.

And then many years later when it felt like the only Femmes left on the planet were to be found walking on the arms of those who had transitioned, that the feeling of isolation (and thoughts of involuntary celibacy) returned and with that the self doubt. In my latter years I actually found it harder to come to terms with- as my earlier experiences had been with those who had fully transitioned and now identified as straight men- an identity that I could never relate to, however when I began to meet those who identified as trans-men and part of the queer community, I thought perhaps…

It was the acceptance of male-identified Butch by the community that finally facilitated my ability to not feel any pressure, from others or within myself, to transition.

[Dutch Leonard]

Over the years, not knowing where I belonged or fit in, I wondered if the transgender thing was for me. Sometimes I felt like I stood on the shore and watched others sail away into manhood, into real lives. I never felt like I was in the wrong body, I just couldn't put into words what it was I was. If someone needs to be a man to be happy, to stay alive, I support that. That is their life to live.

Knowing what I do now, and finding people who get it, I am ok. Not everyone gets it but finding this community has brought me home. If someone thinks I am not butch enough or too butch, she can keep looking.

[T D]

This is just my opinion, but I think there's a very strong distinction between wanting to "be" a man and wanting to be "in" a "man's body". In fact there are many characteristics (generalization) about lots of bio men that I don't really care for. I feel no more manly than I did before, but I'm becoming much more comfortable in my body every day. For myself it seems that it was more about my body than anything, and still is so far.

Just a quick thought to ponder.

Ok, back to bed... not feelin so hot today.

[Merlin]

Can I say unless you walk in someone's shoes you don't have a clue what they are going through !! How life treats them .. What the future holds for them.

Amazingly it does happen .. It doesn't have to be in your face it can be little sly digs,it can be feeling you are in a minority rather than a majority. It can be when your made to feel like your not good enough .. Or that same old question off gay and straight alike "when are you having the op then ?"

Due to the smaller size of the butch femme community over here .. A lot of butches going through surgery of some kind .. To be happier in their skins.

From what I have seen to me it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing. Butch/femme here is a small affair, there are a couple of uk forums but it's always the same group posting with no fresh blood.

I did this thread as I wanted butches/transguys opinions (femmes as guests) please don't derail this thread as it's a butches feeling and points of view.

[julieisafemme]

juliesafemme,

I'm not sure why you felt the need to call me out without understanding what I meant. I asked a question.

What I didn't ask for was your snarky comment, which incidentally, you could have done privately, and saved yourself some embarrassment. Oddly, not everyone comes from the same place of negativity as you.

That is all.


Hpychick. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment.

I did not do it privately because I thought what I interpreted as your public snark needed to be addressed publicly. I did not understand your comment to be a serious or genuine question. The little zombie face is what made me think you were poking fun.

I do apologize for upsetting you.

[LaneyDoll]

I too am in the "old" group, so listen up because I have some good advice for y'all. I am a femme who has spent more than half of her life partnered to FTM's, and I would NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER (I can't say it enough) encourage ANYONE to transition. It is the hardest thing that any person could ever go through, and for the partner, I speculate that it is even harder than it is for the person who transitions.

If you genuinely feel displaced in your body or your spirit, then transitioning will be one high after another for you. BUT - it will still be the hardest thing you will ever do.

To any femmes (or anyone else for that matter) who may encourage or pressure your friends, partners, acquaintences to transition, PLEASE stop. Almost all relationships end when one of the partners transition. In fact most end right away when one partner expresses the desire to transition. When my late husband transitioned, we were in a support group that included about fifty couples, both FTM and MTF. Out of these fifty couples only two survived the transition. My husband and I were one, the other was a couple that began their lives together as Gay men, and one of them transitioned MTF. They are a wonderfully loving couple and I am still friends with them .

I could go on for three hours about all the hard painful things that happen when your partner transitions, but you can find that information elsewhere. I loved my husband with everything I had in me, and he returned my love at least that strongly. He has been dead for seven plus years and I am still not fully recovered ... Not from losing him and not from losing me. Cause that's what happened when he transitioned. I transitioned too - from gay to straight.

Finding my way back to myself, or rather TO my new self has been a long complicated (though sometimes exciting) journey.

Finding oneself is hard and is a journey that continues throughout ones life. Let people find their own selves. Don't push them in any direction. The world had room for every variation on the gender spectrum. Make room for everyone as they are and as they evolve ON THEIR OWN.
Smooches,
Keri

I once dated a genderqueer woman whose previous relationship had pressured her to change. "N" (not her real initial) was involved with a girl who, on a daily basis, pressured her to start taking T and to start saving for the series of surgeries. But, the problem was that, although N did want to have top surgery and did want to have a hysterectomy (because of period problems), she wanted to remain a woman. She is a singer so wants to preserve her voice; she likes wearing make-up and she likes being in a woman/woman sexual relationship-amoung many other reasons. Her ex put her through HELL and N ended up being insecure about herself, her body and her mind. She realizes that she had masculine energy but had accepted that she was born into a woman's body. However, her ex was determined to make her change and all of her self acceptance was destroyed when that relationship finally ended.

[LaneyDoll]

I did this thread as I wanted butches/transguys opinions (femmes as guests) please don't derail this thread as it's a butches feeling and points of view.

Hey Merlin! I hope I did not derail your thread. I know you are looking for butch feelings and points of view so I hope my femme thoughts were ok to post.

To everyone who has shared, thanks for doing so. As an extreme femme girly girl, I rarely feel the pressure that a butch feels and I appreciate the chance to read & learn as I truly hope that it makes me a more understanding partner.

~love to everyone~

[kannon]

If you're transitioning for someone else, you're doing it for all the wrong reasons. If they are being honest with their therapist, then they wouldn't get the green light for T or any SRS.

[AtLast]

Yes during several stages in my life. The first time in my youth when I experienced a severe backlash from the mainstream lesbian community towards Butch/Femme identities and in looking for a place to belong, and escape feelings of isolation, found myself gravitating towards the gay male culture- and because of my involvement in the entertainment industry eventually found that my entire circle of friends were made up of people in varying stages of transition, primarily MTF. The constant “when are you going to choose?” conversations, and “Butch is just pretend” statements that happened within this group, created another type of isolation for me.And then many years later when it felt like the only Femmes left on the planet were to be found walking on the arms of those who had transitioned, that the feeling of isolation (and thoughts of involuntary celibacy) returned and with that the self doubt. In my latter years I actually found it harder to come to terms with- as my earlier experiences had been with those who had fully transitioned and now identified as straight men- an identity that I could never relate to, however when I began to meet those who identified as trans-men and part of the queer community, I thought perhaps…

It was the acceptance of male-identified Butch by the community that finally facilitated my ability to not feel any pressure, from others or within myself, to transition.

WOW-

This is a very powerful post. Thanks.

[Liam]

Can I say unless you walk in someone's shoes you don't have a clue what they are going through !! How life treats them .. What the future holds for them.

Amazingly it does happen .. It doesn't have to be in your face it can be little sly digs,it can be feeling you are in a minority rather than a majority. It can be when your made to feel like your not good enough .. Or that same old question off gay and straight alike "when are you having the op then ?"

Due to the smaller size of the butch femme community over here .. A lot of butches going through surgery of some kind .. To be happier in their skins.

From what I have seen to me it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing. Butch/femme here is a small affair, there are a couple of uk forums but it's always the same group posting with no fresh blood.

I did this thread as I wanted butches/transguys opinions (femmes as guests) please don't derail this thread as it's a butches feeling and points of view.

I think it is very important to distinguish between perceptions and facts, when having this particular discussion. Several years ago, similar feelings were expressed at the dash site, in regards to the population of female identified butches decreasing and the population of transguys increasing. When the numbers came in, transguys were in the minority comprising less than 10% of the population, a number that some found shocking, because their perceptions or feelings were the opposite.

[Merlin]

America has a larger bft community.

Bft in the uk is a small fishing pond making it very muddied due to the swapping of partners in the community.

[AtLast]

I think it is very important to distinguish between perceptions and facts, when having this particular discussion. Several years ago, similar feelings were expressed at the dash site, in regards to the population of female identified butches decreasing and the population of transguys increasing. When the numbers came in, transguys were in the minority comprising less than 10% of the population, a number that some found shocking, because their perceptions or feelings were the opposite.

I remember the discussions, but a poll on a B-F website might be unreliable. That is the only one I remember- but I joined that site way later than many people here (and there) and the B-F community. Is there any off-line poll having to do with actual numbers that you know of? It would be interesting for a real study to be done across the USA and across the entire community base within the queer populations.

Is there a link for what you cite here to a actual research study?

I honestly couldn't venture to guess what these numbers are- so much speculation. Also, it feels like the relationship among and between trans men and women and butches (of all varieties) is much less volitile lately. I feel like there is much more positive communication going on and less bickering.

It feels good to see this thread take on a sensitive area respectfully and in a way that we feel safe to post and discuss.

Something that I think about along these lines is how varied definitions of the Butch-Femme community could be. Persinally, I see transgendered people as part of it and it history. But, I don't know if this is true for everyone.

Also, polls on these websites usually have only a portion of the total membership voting on them. Of course, there are members that are very active, others that are not and some that join and leave.

[hpychick]

julieisafemme,

I appreciate how protective you are here in such a personal space. I apologize for being reactionary and defensive, and also for saying that you were coming from a place of negativity.

I am far from perfect, and often misinterpret things for whatever reason. Nonetheless, I was rude to you and that's really not part of my typical character.

Thank you for the apology; I hope that you will also accept mine.

Sunny

Hpychick. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment.

I did not do it privately because I thought what I interpreted as your public snark needed to be addressed publicly. I did not understand your comment to be a serious or genuine question. The little zombie face is what made me think you were poking fun.

I do apologize for upsetting you.

[Converse]

America has a larger bft community.

Bft in the uk is a small fishing pond making it very muddied due to the swapping of partners in the community.

Merlin I understand exactly what you are saying, however, many years ago on my very first visit to a women’s bar in San Francisco, after I had been working in England for a few years, much to my enjoyment I found myself of some interest to the locals who told me “its not like London here, there aren’t very many Butches”. :blink:

It’s all about perspective. The whole of England could fit into Alabama – now ask the question, How does the Butch/Femme community in England compare to the one in Alabama?
Relatively speaking, the Butch/Femme community across the globe isn’t large- however it exists, and if we need to find it around us, 99% of the time we need to relocate – or we find it here on places like this site.

[Linus]

I remember the discussions, but a poll on a B-F website might be unreliable. That is the only one I remember- but I joined that site way later than many people here (and there) and the B-F community. Is there any off-line poll having to do with actual numbers that you know of? It would be interesting for a real study to be done across the USA and across the entire community base within the queer populations.

Is there a link for what you cite here to a actual research study?

I honestly couldn't venture to guess what these numbers are- so much speculation. Also, it feels like the relationship among and between trans men and women and butches (of all varieties) is much less volitile lately. I feel like there is much more positive communication going on and less bickering.

It feels good to see this thread take on a sensitive area respectfully and in a way that we feel safe to post and discuss.

Something that I think about along these lines is how varied definitions of the Butch-Femme community could be. Persinally, I see transgendered people as part of it and it history. But, I don't know if this is true for everyone.

Also, polls on these websites usually have only a portion of the total membership voting on them. Of course, there are members that are very active, others that are not and some that join and leave.

Based on what people put into their "How do you identify" here (totally unscientific, certainly) we see a breakdown of 64 FTMs to 690 Butches (this is based on the search terms of FTM and Butch).

[Heart]

Why bring in polls and statistics? Feeling pressured to transition may not come directly from transmen, it may come from femmes, the environment, the culture, from within oneself, etc. Heck, I remember reading an article about some country (can't remember which) supporting transition as long as it resulted in heterosexuality. Some here have stated they felt pressured, some haven't. This isn't a research project. There's nothing to prove or disprove. It's about people sharing subjective personal experiences, no?

[CherylNYC]

Why bring in polls and statistics? Feeling pressured to transition may not come directly from transmen, it may come from femmes, the environment, the culture, from within oneself, etc. Heck, I remember reading an article about some country (can't remember which) supporting transition as long as it resulted in heterosexuality. Some here have stated they felt pressured, some haven't. This isn't a research project. There's nothing to prove or disprove. It's about people sharing subjective personal experiences, no?

Iran provides gender reassignment treatment and surgery to gay people because it turns them into straight people.

[julieisafemme]

julieisafemme,

I appreciate how protective you are here in such a personal space. I apologize for being reactionary and defensive, and also for saying that you were coming from a place of negativity.

I am far from perfect, and often misinterpret things for whatever reason. Nonetheless, I was rude to you and that's really not part of my typical character.

Thank you for the apology; I hope that you will also accept mine.

Sunny

Oh my goodness Sunny!! Of course.

Yes I am protective of these kinds of conversations. This conversation is particularly interesting to me as a partner of a transman. My experience has been with the opposite in that my partner has experienced other lesbians grieving over or questioning why he would want to transition. Last year we went to a conference in his home town and there was an older woman there whom he had known for years who was visibly upset to see that he transitioned. She felt a palpable sense of loss. That was very hard to watch for me and others in the workshop.

[Liam]

Why bring in polls and statistics? Feeling pressured to transition may not come directly from transmen, it may come from femmes, the environment, the culture, from within oneself, etc. Heck, I remember reading an article about some country (can't remember which) supporting transition as long as it resulted in heterosexuality. Some here have stated they felt pressured, some haven't. This isn't a research project. There's nothing to prove or disprove. It's about people sharing subjective personal experiences, no?

I think statistics are important when someone uses phrases such as, "a lot of butches going through surgery of some kind to be happier in their skin" or "from what I have seen it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing," because while that may be how someone perceives reality, that does not make it true. In the past, I have seen this type of language develop into alarm and devisivness, and I would hope that people understand the distinction between what a person feels they are observing and what truly is. I think there is room in this thread for butches to share their feelings as well as reflect upon the validity of their observations.

[AtLast]

Based on what people put into their "How do you identify" here (totally unscientific, certainly) we see a breakdown of 64 FTMs to 690 Butches (this is based on the search terms of FTM and Butch).

Is this the one not very long ago (I thin dapper put it together)? I remember that one and some of the discussions about how for some, the items to choose from were confusing. But not everyone felt that way. No, not scientific and reflects only us, here.

yet, it gives some info about what Liam brings up.

One of the things that always comes up for me is the distinction between someone (like myself) that integrates a gender-blended identification with being a butch woman. Never feels like that is covered very well- seems like we take on a either/or stance so often with gender identity within our community here. That feels constraining to me.

On the other hand, I feel strongly that gender and differing throeies about gender are very important aspects of the B-F dynamic that can be quite freeing and not the least bit threatening. I honestly do feel like we have worked through some really tough stuff between butches and transmen and I hope we keep on doing this.

What heart brings up does strike me in terms of the thread being about a subjective discussion about feelings about pressure to transition. I sure don't have any research to back up numbers.

what I always think about with studies/polls, etc. about this breakdown is how the term transgender is used as opposed to transsexual is.

The term transgender was coined by Virginia Prince, a gender activist who developed the term to describe her adoption of a feminine persona without carrying the connotation of changing her physical sex, as the term “transsexual” does. 1) The term has grown to become an umbrella term that is used to describe all gender-variant people, including cross-dressers, transsexuals, those who adopt the role of the opposite sex without medical intervention, and any persons who do not feel themselves to fit cleanly into the gender binary of “male” or “female”. 2) To learn more about GLBTQ and transgender terms, resources, and best practice methods, visit http://www.multicsd.org/doku.php?id=lesbian_gay_bisexual_transsexual_queer _questioning_populations

[Linus]

Is this the one not very long ago (I thin dapper put it together)? I remember that one and some of the discussions about how for some, the items to choose from were confusing. But not everyone felt that way. No, not scientific and reflects only us, here.

yet, it gives some info about what Liam brings up.


I don't think so as I used the backend to do the search. However, I do agree that this is more about what one experiences and/or feels about it.

[Tommi]

Over the years, not knowing where I belonged or fit in, I wondered if the transgender thing was for me. Sometimes I felt like I stood on the shore and watched others sail away into manhood, into real lives. I never felt like I was in the wrong body, I just couldn't put into words what it was I was. If someone needs to be a man to be happy, to stay alive, I support that. That is their life to live.

Knowing what I do now, and finding people who get it, I am ok. Not everyone gets it but finding this community has brought me home. If someone thinks I am not butch enough or too butch, she can keep looking.

Hi Dutch,

Glad to see you are being true to you. Here is another community that gets it.. http://www.butchvoices.com/.

No one ever pressured me, probably because I would have just written them off. I have had all the labels that go with being gay, trans, homo, queer, butch, stone, top, etc etc, and , well I cut the labels out of my clothes. People usually see through their own filters and just take what they want.

Since my pre-kindergarten years I identified as a boy. Some transition happened in my brain, and that bio-female body seemed to just morph away. I didn't have words for it, I just felt and saw things through what I now know was being transgender. When I was about 3, I began the journey as Tommi, per my dear Gramma who nicknamed me.

When I was a young adult, I was introduced to testosterone by a butch friend. Back then, doctor's thought I was nuts, so, I "experimented" with it from other sources. Not under doctor's care, no lab tests, we were street druggies I guess. Went to Tijuanna and got it from a doctor/pharmacist down there. I had some pretty nasty stuff going on from it (not monitored dose). Any scratch would bleed profusely. I got sick and was hospitalized twice. I quit taking it after about 6 months, as my liver stuff went out of control. I just went forward as I had before, and am comfortable in my won skin. I have identified as male my whole life I suppose, so I guess I could never be pressured. I am sensitive, romantic, and cry when sad, even when happy, and like the rest of us, just doing this one day at a time.

Check out Butch Voices ~ and ^ 5...

[Heart]

I think there is room in this thread for butches to share their feelings as well as reflect upon the validity of their observations.

Actually, I don't personally think, in this thread, that butches need to reflect upon the "validity" of their feelings or observations when it comes to discussing their own experiences of feeling pressure around transition.

Heart

[DapperButch]

Is this the one not very long ago (I thin dapper put it together)? I remember that one and some of the discussions about how for some, the items to choose from were confusing. But not everyone felt that way. No, not scientific and reflects only us, here.

yet, it gives some info about what Liam brings up.



No.

My poll was not a poll on how we identified.

My poll was about how people of different genders felt about the term cissexed.

Linus, thanks for taking the time to pull that data together. I find it quite interesting.

(Also a nod to Liam and his posts).

[Chazz]

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

It's been my experience that "role playing" was a circuitous path. Would that I could have had a more direct trajectory.

Role-playing may or may not be a way of working through dominant culture constructs. It may also be a way of embracing them. You say as much in your next quote.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

Role playing is a form of acting-as-if. It happens no less within subcultures where dominant culture values are rejected. Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers come to mind.

Are we all sponges for dominant culture values, sure, at least until we shed them as best we can. That is if we're of a mind to, of course. (This includes cultural outlaws like Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers, too. There deal may be oppositional; it may also be a way of conceding defeat.)

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "double-edged sword". I contextually take it to mean good and bad at the same time.

If I read you accurately, are you saying that identifying as "butch" was who you really were at the time, or was that a role-play?

The reason I ask is because it never occurred to me to think of butch or "Trans" in terms of complexity - i.e. one being more complex than the other. I see them as two separate and distinct identities, not different points along the same continuum. Although, I have heard people speak of butch and "Trans" in such a way, I think doing so is the source of much confusion and consternation.

[AtLast]

No.

My poll was not a poll on how we identified.

My poll was about how people of different genders felt about the term cissexed.

Linus, thanks for taking the time to pull that data together. I find it quite interesting.

(Also a nod to Liam and his posts).

Got it!

^5

[AtLast]

I think statistics are important when someone uses phrases such as, "a lot of butches going through surgery of some kind to be happier in their skin" or "from what I have seen it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing," because while that may be how someone perceives reality, that does not make it true. In the past, I have seen this type of language develop into alarm and devisivness, and I would hope that people understand the distinction between what a person feels they are observing and what truly is. I think there is room in this thread for butches to share their feelings as well as reflect upon the validity of their observations.

I understand why you would want to explore these statements and yes, let us not go to past places of alarm and divisiveness. That has never been a good thing.

The point Heart makes is valid in terms of the thread being for butches to discuss this within our own zone in relationship to feelings we may have experienced. No, feelings don't make something true in terms of any faulty thinking there might be about numbers of transgendered people here or butches. But someone’s feelings/emotional experiences are valid for each and every one of us- including trans members.

Liam, there are things that need to be talked about among butches in this realm so that "myth" or false assumptions are brought out. Even though I have never felt pressure to transition by trans guys (although I did cite instances in which I have been by femmes I dated), I have no idea if this is true for other butches. And if they have been- how can we deal with this?

To be honest, I would think that trans guys would be very cautious about influencing a butch to transition- it isn't some boom-bam journey without many obstacles and difficult situations to deal with- from family, possibly a partner, friends to all the medical procedures. And it takes years. You know this very well due to your own experience and journey. However, you are a mature, thoughtful, bright guy that didn't just up and decide to transition. There could be much younger, less mature trans guys that might still be in that time of life when peer pressure is just the mode of operation. Also, there are so many differing experiences that trans guys I have known throughout nearly 40 years now that I have never put any generality to their transitioning processes- so individual.

There have been quite a few Transmen as well as femmes giving their input in this thread that have been really positive for me to read and think about. I don't want the thread to disintegrate either, and as a person that will not put up with transphobic or stereotypes of transpeople, I will call out anyone that goes there. I guess it is hard to trust this in a thread by and for butches to discuss this topic, but I really need your trust (trans guys here) to do the right thing in terms of any unfair or misinformation that might get posted.

Also, I would always recommend that someone ask questions they might be struggling with in the Ask a Transperson thread because I believe they would be able to get good information from those that are trans. I have to trust that because it is important to have such forums and resources.

I don't personally believe in the statements you quote above, but it I think we are capable of talking about what is not so great about these statements. I wanted to know about the stats because I was thinking that maybe there is some study that has been done that would apply to the B-F community. The only one I could remember was Dapper’s- and I had it wrong in my memory about what was really measured.

Something that I have learned via the transpeople in my life as well as in this community (on and off-line) that have experienced life as a butch before transitioning is that we share many commonalities and have supported by them.

This is a butch space for butch expression and I hope it can proceed as such. Obviously with input by trans folks or femmes that want to contribute in a way that keeps the butch experience as the main focus as the thread was designed to do. We need understanding and supportive allies, too- and to have the same kinds of space that transpeople, women, stone people, BDSM folks, femmes, etc. do at times.

Everyone's feelings are valid- yet perhaps not based upon fact and I'm sure posters will point out where the facts are just not there.

[Merlin]

Especially when you don't reside in that country.

[Greyson]

It's been my experience that "role playing" was a circuitous path. Would that I could have had a more direct trajectory.

Role-playing may or may not be a way of working through dominant culture constructs. It may also be a way of embracing them. You say as much in your next quote.



Role playing is a form of acting-as-if. It happens no less within subcultures where dominant culture values are rejected. Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers come to mind.

Are we all sponges for dominant culture values, sure, at least until we shed them as best we can. That is if we're of a mind to, of course. (This includes cultural outlaws like Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers, too. There deal may be oppositional; it may also be a way of conceding defeat.)



I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "double-edged sword". I contextually take it to mean good and bad at the same time.

If I read you accurately, are you saying that identifying as "butch" was who you really were at the time, or was that a role-play?

The reason I ask is because it never occurred to me to think of butch or "Trans" in terms of complexity - i.e. one being more complex than the other. I see them as two separate and distinct identities, not different points along the same continuum. Although, I have heard people speak of butch and "Trans" in such a way, I think doing so is the source of much confusion and consternation.

Chazz, we have a difference of opinion. I do see my gender on a continum. I do not see Trans or Butch as more or less complex than one another. I think both offer challenges and freedom. I also think for some Butch and Transman can intersect, overlap. I do not believe the binary is the only gender model.

For me living all of my life as a Butch until very recently has been the same in many ways as my life as a Transman. I would not be honest if I did not state having the legal recognition of being a "male" did not change some things. I can get married and my marriage recognized by the US Federal Government. After 3 years on T, I still get "Mamn" frequently. I also get "Sir." That was also my reality before Top surgery and T.

Living my life as Butch was not role play for me. It was simply who I was, am. I think for me, I will always make a distinction between being a Transman and being a Cisgender man. For me, it is not the same.

[AtLast]

I hope eventually we can talk about what julieisafemme brought up about how at times, one can grieve the loss of a butch friend that decides to transition. I think she was talking about this in terms of losses that can be felt by butches with other butch friends transitioning. That is how I interpreted her post.

I know that this can be really sensitive- which can be based upon the very myths that some posters are bringing up. I.e., what Liam points to in the danger of accepting the mythologies of trans guys increasing in our B-F community and butch identity decreasing. Or, trans guys just want to take up with femmes in the B-F community.

There are so many other kinds of things that a butch friend might be grieving that are just human responses to the loss of a part of someone that they have experienced for years as a friend that have nothing to do with any of that and everything to do with adjustments/adaptations people go through. I have certainly grieved the loss of a friend's physical mobility before because I shared years of playing sports with that friend and now that has changed and we have to work out other activities to share. Now, my friends have to deal with my having disability issues and make adjustments. One has taken a powder- not really much of a friend, really.

For me, there has been some grief about a friend that transitions that I have shared specific butch lesbian constructs with in the past. And for a time, often, there could be that a friend just spends more time with other trans friends than me that has always been someone I did a lot of things with. Even with their partner and my own in the past. On one level, I get this as it is important to get involved in support groups and attend conferences, etc. in which I am not part of. People only have so much time to share with friends, family, partners, and work- so things just shift. But there can be hurt feelings.

I remember the loss my late partner's daughter felt due to her "Other Mother" transitioning into her "Dad." She grieved the loss of that other mother as a female co-parent and had a difficult time even trying to express herself because she felt like she might hurt her Dad's feelings. So, she ended up resenting his transition for a time (she was pre-teen at the time of his starting to transition) and blaming it on her parents splitting up.

I, myself after the suicide of a trans childhood friend in high school had several years in which transition of anyone I knew brought up a lot of fear. I was a lot younger then and it was an entirely different world in terms of gender identity and transition then. Later, I worked through this and also things like being scorned by straight friends when I came out to them. All part of life as someone that just does not fall within the societal norms.

Anyway- this could be a good topic area to discuss. A lot of complexity!!

[Quintease]

Merlin I understand exactly what you are saying, however, many years ago on my very first visit to a women’s bar in San Francisco, after I had been working in England for a few years, much to my enjoyment I found myself of some interest to the locals who told me “its not like London here, there aren’t very many Butches”. :blink:

It’s all about perspective.

Completely agree. I used to live in a certain city (X) and hang around a community of BF'ers. When I moved to my current city, I met a BF'er here who had also lived in (X) and told me that there were No BF'ers there. At all. Ever.

[Chazz]

Chazz, we have a difference of opinion. I do see my gender on a continum. I do not see Trans or Butch as more or less complex than one another. I think both offer challenges and freedom. I also think for some Butch and Transman can intersect, overlap. I do not believe the binary is the only gender model.

I agreed with you on the "Trans or Butch as not more or less complex than one another".

Where I see us diverging is on the continuum issue.

Butches are not transmen. Nor, are we "cisgendered" (i.e. someone whose gender identity agrees with their societally recognized sex). Butches do not adhere to a gender binary even within the lesbian and gay culture. Butches are uncisgendered. To be linguistically consistent, one would have to say we're cisbutch.

Like the term women (i.e. not men), the term "cisgender" is commonly held to mean, not "Trans". I won't go into the inappropriateness of defining any group by what they are not - it should be obvious. Besides, POC have long since made the case for not being described as "non-white" as have Feminists for females not being defined as "non-males".

For me living all of my life as a Butch until very recently has been the same in many ways as my life as a Transman.

I get that. The inner contours of my life aren't all that different since I came into the fullness of my understanding of myself as a butch.

But, let's think about this continuum construct for a minute....

Butch isn't an a pre-"Trans" state for butches. Butch is the final destination. To speak of butch identity otherwise, is to (albeit inadvertently) create a horizontal hierarchy with "Trans" succeeding butch. People (you) may not intend to imply successionism or hierarchies, but placing butches and "Trans" on the same continuum does just that. It's how continua work.

Butch identity falls along a spectrum not a continuum. One butch isn't butcher than another. :confused:

I don't think butches and "Trans" follow the same trajectory. For instance, I don't think of myself as being in the wrong body. I think of myself as a butch in a butch body (cisbutch).

I would not be honest if I did not state having the legal recognition of being a "male" did not change some things. I can get married and my marriage recognized by the US Federal Government. After 3 years on T, I still get "Mamn" frequently. I also get "Sir." That was also my reality before Top surgery and T.

Having legal rights and privileges that lesbians and gays don't have is hugely different.

Living my life as Butch was not role play for me. It was simply who I was, am. I think for me, I will always make a distinction between being a Transman and being a Cisgender man. For me, it is not the same.

Of course, there is a difference between a Transman and a Cisgender man. Just as there are differences between being gay, straight, bisexual, trans, non-trans, butch, femme.... But let's be consistent in acknowledging those differences.

I have no doubt you've been on a continuum. I take you at your word about that. However, I suspect it may have been a "Trans continuum" all along. Can that be ok? You with your continuum and me with my spectrum?

[Converse]

I have no doubt you've been on a continuum. I take you at your word about that. However, I suspect it may have been a "Trans continuum" all along. Can that be ok? You with your continuum and me with my spectrum?

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

[BullDog]

I am puzzled about the "not butch enough" being associated with transitioning since most who transition don't identify as butch.

[Chazz]

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

Well said, Converse. For me, it's never been about the "next stage" or becoming "other". It's always been about being more accepting of my cisbutch self.

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

Butches are doubly pressured to be self-othering. First by dominant culture and its gender constructs, then by forces within the community with theirs.

Butches who succumb to this "othering the self/selfing the other", are doubly-colonized.

Damn, as if life wasn't hard enough. :seeingstars:

[Merlin]

The not butch enough is between butches .. And what is said or more not said.

Transitioning isn't the natural progression for all butches.

[AtLast]

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

Rings true for me too- although, transitioning has honestly never entered my mind. Thinking there is just something "wrong" with me as a female human began at a very young age.

The whole "next stage" belief system is what really bothers me. We have arrived and that battle within the context of a very homophobic and misogynist society has been rough.

No, we are not cis-gendered at all- if we were, then why are we so often called "freaks"?

These are the very reasons that it is really important for butches to be able to talk about our identity as butches outside of any trans viewpoints sometimes. I say sometimes because I recognize that other butches were are/were indeed continuum- but not all of us are. It is just erroneous to put all butches on that continuum. It hurts, is dismissive and simply erroneous- causing as much damage to butches as myth and outright bigotry hurts and dismisses transgendered people.

It gets really difficult to feel like I am walking on a tight rope if I try to talk about being butch as my true state of being as a finished human being. I know that historically, there has been (might still emerge, unfortunately) some awful transphobic attacks on our own trans members stemming back to the dash site. That hurts me too because this is my home also and there are countless Transmen here (and Tran masculine butches) that are my friends and just people I care about and respect and would never put their journey down. In fact, seeing them find their way and having some happiness feels good to me.

I (and many other butches) have spoken to the positive aspects of varying gender theories that are finally flowing within society and in our small population. There is freedom in gender theory that applies to butches as well as transgendered and intergendered folks. And femmes that love them- and butches. I just want to accept this gift and find some peace and happiness. Hurting each other is just not part of that peace.

[Chazz]

....The whole "next stage" belief system is what really bothers me. We have arrived [at] that battle within the context of a very homophobic and misogynist society has been rough.

Yes, that battle has been very rough, indeed. To fight for identity on two fronts at once, is unacceptable. I think this is one of the under articulated issues at the core of the "gender wars".

....These are the very reasons that it is really important for butches to be able to talk about our identity as butches outside of any trans viewpoints sometimes.

Exactly. It's essential lest we lose sight of who WE are within the LGBTQ panoply.

I say sometimes because I recognize that other butches [were/are] indeed [on a] continuum- but not all of us are.

This is why I prefer the term spectrum. It avoids all that unintentional, or intentional, ranking of butch-ness which is too often based in "cismale" or heternormative constructs. That's the dominant culture front of our two front "battle".

It is just erroneous to put all butches on that continuum. It hurts, is dismissive and simply erroneous- causing as much damage to butches....

For me, this is the community front of the "battle".

The "all butches" part is where we diverge, AtLastHome, assuming we do on this issue. I don't think butches are on the same continuum as those who transition. I think we're on a different trajectory. Again: Why isn't that ok?

It gets really difficult to feel like I am walking on a tight rope if I try to talk about being butch as my true state of being as a finished human being....

Life on a "tightrope" is too high a price to pay only to find oneself in a two front "battle".

I (and many other butches) have spoken to the positive aspects of varying gender theories that are finally flowing within society and in our small population. There is freedom in gender theory that applies to butches as well as transgendered and intergendered folks. And femmes that love them- and butches. I just want to accept this gift and find some peace and happiness. Hurting each other is just not part of that peace.

I haven't found "freedom" in gender theory. I don't mind if others have. I just want to be able to say I haven't without being villified.

[AtLast]

The not butch enough is between butches .. And what is said or more not said.

Transitioning isn't the natural progression for all butches.

No it isn't and I find this belief to be as harmful as many of the myths about trans and intergendered people. It is important for our entire community to dispell this myth along with transphobic beliefs.

[Greyson]

Chazz, your point about using the word "spectrum" was useful to me. Let me be very clear, I do not see transitioning as the next step for all butches, nor do I see it as an act of trying to be "more butch."

I am not trying to villify you for your beliefs. Butches have been villified throughout our history/herstory and I am sure many of us here have experienced this sort of targeted hate. I consciously try not to do the blame game here. The words I have spoken are based on my experience, reality. I do think that masculinity is not limited to sex, gender, genetics, orientation or testosterone.

I have tried to build bridges in our community in "real life" and here online. I have no desire to split the LGBTQ community into fighting factions. (I am not saying this is your goal. It is not mine.)

I hope this offers something to the discussion on this thread.

[AtLast]

Because all of the SF/Bay Area Pride events are brewing this time of year, I always wonder if I will see and feel a more inclusive and less divided LGBTIQ population. So many of the issues that are being brought out right here in this thread and need to be addressed witin the entire spectrum of queerdom as far as I am concerned.

I don't know (because I have no experience to compare) how large a part of Pride events outside of my geographic location demonstrate more alliance and coalition building for the good of all disenfranchised groups within queerdom. To be honest, although I am so near and join in the SF Pride activities, I am always saddened by the continued divisions between us all. It gets better each year- there is progress- but not nearly enough.

[dreadgeek]

Before I say anything, let me commend the OP and everyone who has posted so far. This is an extraordinarily difficult topic and I'm both proud of folks for being willing to tackle it and pleased that it is being tackled. The degree to which this happens (and humans being humans it would be remarkable if it never happened) is a question I have wanted to take on in writing for a few years now. I first wondered about this a litle more than a decade ago.

I have an ex, D, who I am still very good friends with. At the time, D was seeing this transguy named J. One day, D told me that she was thinking about transitioning. This caught me a little bit by surprise but I wasn't going to tell someone what their process was. I asked her some questions because, quite honestly, I know D well and I just couldn't see it. I asked her what made her think that she might be male and the only thing she could really come up with was that all of the musicians she loved and admired were men--D was and still is a big music geek. At the time, she wanted to be in a band. I suggested that perhaps she might want to give it some thought and that if she was really trans that would be still be there. Then I said I'd support her whatever she did. A few weeks later she was talking about having her first shot of T. Her boyfriend had a line on T through a backchannel. I told her that this seemed an extraordinarily bad idea.

Now, at the time both D and J were going to a trans support group and I wondered to what degree there was some transman being, well, an elder who might be able and willing to say to D, 'let's talk about this'. It didn't happen. Eventually D came to her senses and stopped transitioning before she did something permanent.

This incident has haunted me for a long time because I wondered how many times something like this was being played out and whether we, as a community, had the tools to talk about this topic in an adult and loving manner. So seeing this makes me feel good that the discussion can happen.

On another personal note, the book I've been afraid to write deals with this very question. I'm afraid to write it because, well, I know our people and I know how we can be--sometimes even asking the question "are there really that many more transmen around or is there something else going on" can cause a category five shit storm to erupt into one's life. But of the books that are scattered on my computer half written or mapped out in my head, the one on this question is the one that is burning a hole in my head, demanding to be written. Don't worry, I’m not gathering information or doing research. :)

I don't have any advice for anyone, although I will say these two things:

1) As Keri said, transitioning is the hardest thing you will ever do. I have often said that next to transition, everything else I will ever do fades into the merely difficult.

2) The only reason to transition is because you feel that something is just a bit off-kilter between body and brain. It won't make your life easier (see 1 above) nor will it fix your quirks and eccentricities. It solves one thing that is out of balance in your life and nothing else. Now, if it solves that problem for you, however, it will change your life and make it a better more comfortable place than you might have imagined possible. And if it doesn't break you along the way, the person who comes out on the other side will be a force of nature. You will know yourself much better and you'll know *precisely* what you are capable of.


Cheers
Aj

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.


Heart

[AtLast]

Before I say anything, let me commend the OP and everyone who has posted so far. This is an extraordinarily difficult topic and I'm both proud of folks for being willing to tackle it and pleased that it is being tackled. The degree to which this happens (and humans being humans it would be remarkable if it never happened) is a question I have wanted to take on in writing for a few years now. I first wondered about this a litle more than a decade ago.

I have an ex, D, who I am still very good friends with. At the time, D was seeing this transguy named J. One day, D told me that she was thinking about transitioning. This caught me a little bit by surprise but I wasn't going to tell someone what their process was. I asked her some questions because, quite honestly, I know D well and I just couldn't see it. I asked her what made her think that she might be male and the only thing she could really come up with was that all of the musicians she loved and admired were men--D was and still is a big music geek. At the time, she wanted to be in a band. I suggested that perhaps she might want to give it some thought and that if she was really trans that would be still be there. Then I said I'd support her whatever she did. A few weeks later she was talking about having her first shot of T. Her boyfriend had a line on T through a backchannel. I told her that this seemed an extraordinarily bad idea.

Now, at the time both D and J were going to a trans support group and I wondered to what degree there was some transman being, well, an elder who might be able and willing to say to D, 'let's talk about this'. It didn't happen. Eventually D came to her senses and stopped transitioning before she did something permanent.

This incident has haunted me for a long time because I wondered how many times something like this was being played out and whether we, as a community, had the tools to talk about this topic in an adult and loving manner. So seeing this makes me feel good that the discussion can happen.

On another personal note, the book I've been afraid to write deals with this very question. I'm afraid to write it because, well, I know our people and I know how we can be--sometimes even asking the question "are there really that many more transmen around or is there something else going on" can cause a category five shit storm to erupt into one's life. But of the books that are scattered on my computer half written or mapped out in my head, the one on this question is the one that is burning a hole in my head, demanding to be written. Don't worry, I’m not gathering information or doing research. :)

I don't have any advice for anyone, although I will say these two things:

1) As Keri said, transitioning is the hardest thing you will ever do. I have often said that next to transition, everything else I will ever do fades into the merely difficult.

2) The only reason to transition is because you feel that something is just a bit off-kilter between body and brain. It won't make your life easier (see 1 above) nor will it fix your quirks and eccentricities. It solves one thing that is out of balance in your life and nothing else. Now, if it solves that problem for you, however, it will change your life and make it a better more comfortable place than you might have imagined possible. And if it doesn't break you along the way, the person who comes out on the other side will be a force of nature. You will know yourself much better and you'll know *precisely* what you are capable of.


Cheers
Aj

It does feel like we have finally broken through this topic in a way that is more honest, less defensive and much kinder. Mainly it seems to giving room to a difficult discussion without hurtful (and false) assumptions. I remember past threads (mainly in the old site) just in the last four years that would not get passed a couple of posts without all hell breaking out.

Your story about your friend may very well be one that many of us- butch or trans- have experienced with a friend. And we do need to address issues surrounding the possibility of peer pressure and transitioning along with all of the other variables involved. I have always felt that we can do and come out better for it even though it is a very sensitive matter.

I know that the main thing for me is for a friend (or relative) to choose transitioning under the best of medical care, support and information about transitioning and for this to be of and for themselves completely. And for this to be the case, we do need to support as a community legislation and organizations that not only work for our own interests as part of the queer umbrella, but also for transgendered and intergendered people.

Further, recognizing the issues and needs of butches to also live in a supportive environment and be who we are just as we are is critical. Sharing what is common to us all within this community is a way we can deal more effectively with our difference, I believe and I am grateful for what has thus far been discussed in this thread. I feel a part of a respectful, mature discussion that just feels so much better than in the past.

[chefhottie25]

there is some great discussion going on here. i identify as a boi...which i consider to be a third gender. i bind and prefer the pronouns hy and hym...but that doesn't mean that i want to transition. i have had ftm and mtf friends and i have never felt any pressure to transition. as friends we would often talk openly about their journey and experiences surrounding the transition. it has never left me feeling that it is something that i need or want to do. i am comfortable and complete being the boi that i am.

[PumaJ]

Following this fabulous discussion has given me so much food for thought. AtLastHome, thank you for the links you provided earlier in the conversation. Wonderful articles each one filled with so many excellent points.

I watched a documentary the other evening on PBS that was part of the Independent Lens series. The documentary was about Two Spirit people. In the past I'd partnered with two Native American Butches, both of whom ID'd as Two Spirit. Neveretheless, I found the documentary to be full of information I'd not known before. I especially like the traditional view that there are more than two genders and that each gender has a role to play in the community. Two Spirits (http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/film.html)

Would that we could have such an enlightened point of view in our culture.

Something that has become more clear to me as I read and think about all that has been said, is just how very queer being a High Femme is. Speaking for myself, I can say that supporting and defending the right to be just as they are, has always been a big component of my loving masculine of center women. I'm pretty certain that that is true for all femmes who love MOC women and those who choose to transition as FTM.

[AtLast]

After reading Aj's last post about the friend that could have began transitioning under not very safe conditions- no medical script for T- I am wondering about ways that we all can contribute to this sort of thing not happening. As butches of every flavor, as transmen and women, as femmes of all distinctions.

Overall, with the exception of my teenage friend (back in the mid 60's in a very small mountain community with abusive parents that did kill himself), all trans and my intergendered cousin have had medical as wells as support via psychotherapy, trans support groups and organizations. Because I am an old fart, most friendships I have are with older folks- so my guess is that my running into someone struggling with transitioning that is very young probably won't happen like it might for other people here. So, I am interested in more thoughts about how to handle it when we do see situations in which peer pressure might be contributing to transitioning.

Aj's statement to her friend were not judgemental or in any way "side taking." Really great examples of how to communicate to someone something that isn't easy without making them feel "wrong."

I would love to hear from everyone on the best ways one might handle and talk to a friend about this so that they seek professional care and don't risk their health by doing something like using street T. It almost feels like it is better for these messages to come from another transperson on hormone therapy for it to sink in.

[Linus]

If they are someone in a larger city it may benefit them, if they are considering to transition, to see about joining a local trans support group. I found, at least in NYC at the LGBT Center, that many of the trans guys I met were young (and a few too many homeless). These support groups can often steer younger folks to medical support at low to no cost. At the same time these groups allow them to ask the questions needed -- in a safe and supportive environment (regardless of their decision to transition or not). In the group I was I. A few butches and studs joined who were curious but decided that this wasn't the path for them.

I'm thankful for that group as it kept me sane, safe and made me realize I wasn't alone. There are times when I miss it. Anyways, I digress.

I truly believe that if someone is pressured or feeling pressured to transition, just providing the support for who they are is a good place to start. I also feel that allowing the questions to be asked is also helpful as is asking them the question of "do YOU feel that this is your path?". If they say yes, then get them to say why. The more they think about it and all that's involved, the more they may, hopefully, realize that this has to be something truly deep inside who they are and not just because others tell them or because they think it's the "natural way of things" or the "next step in butch evolution".

[AtLast]

If they are someone in a larger city it may benefit them, if they are considering to transition, to see about joining a local trans support group. I found, at least in NYC at the LGBT Center, that many of the trans guys I met were young (and a few too many homeless). These support groups can often steer younger folks to medical support at low to no cost. At the same time these groups allow them to ask the questions needed -- in a safe and supportive environment (regardless of their decision to transition or not). In the group I was I. A few butches and studs joined who were curious but decided that this wasn't the path for them.

I'm thankful for that group as it kept me sane, safe and made me realize I wasn't alone. There are times when I miss it. Anyways, I digress.

I truly believe that if someone is pressured or feeling pressured to transition, just providing the support for who they are is a good place to start. I also feel that allowing the questions to be asked is also helpful as is asking them the question of "do YOU feel that this is your path?". If they say yes, then get them to say why. The more they think about it and all that's involved, the more they may, hopefully, realize that this has to be something truly deep inside who they are and not just because others tell them or because they think it's the "natural way of things" or the "next step in butch evolution".

Thanks, Linus- this is helpful. Really helpful. Where I live there are many organizations and groups available which is great. I do get concerned for folks that just live in small towns and it is next to impossible for them to get to larger metropolitian areas for support and medical treatment in figuring out if transitioning is right for them. Also, there are butch oriented groups available here that address our issues and provide support. Just the B-F orientation can be isolating for many of us.

I have often thought about how this very website is a resource for many that don't have much available to them where they live. In fact, I think the Planet serves many of us that are geographically isolated or physically disabled that share our narraitive. It is a vital part of the site.

Rather a unique bunch!

[dreadgeek]

If they are someone in a larger city it may benefit them, if they are considering to transition, to see about joining a local trans support group. I found, at least in NYC at the LGBT Center, that many of the trans guys I met were young (and a few too many homeless). These support groups can often steer younger folks to medical support at low to no cost. At the same time these groups allow them to ask the questions needed -- in a safe and supportive environment (regardless of their decision to transition or not). In the group I was I. A few butches and studs joined who were curious but decided that this wasn't the path for them.

I'm thankful for that group as it kept me sane, safe and made me realize I wasn't alone. There are times when I miss it. Anyways, I digress.

I truly believe that if someone is pressured or feeling pressured to transition, just providing the support for who they are is a good place to start. I also feel that allowing the questions to be asked is also helpful as is asking them the question of "do YOU feel that this is your path?". If they say yes, then get them to say why. The more they think about it and all that's involved, the more they may, hopefully, realize that this has to be something truly deep inside who they are and not just because others tell them or because they think it's the "natural way of things" or the "next step in butch evolution".

Linus:

You capture so much of what I want to see. I understand that, for very good reasons, the community has adopted an idea that in order to support and love one another, we have to accept anything anyone does under almost any circumstances. Sometimes, though, the most loving thing one can do is say "have you thought this through?" There are, in my mind, an innumerable number of reasons NOT to transition, I can think of only a handful of reasons TO transition. I think we need to support one another in knowing the difference. Sometimes, that may entail going to entail supporting someone in the decision to transition. Other times, it may be supporting someone in the decision not to do so.

Cheers
Aj

[Parker]

Alot of butches I know are going through gender re-assignment surgery to become male,they are at varying stages of this.

My question is this :
Butches have you ever felt pressurised to have a sex change?

Have you ever felt it off other butches/transguys who want you to follow the path they have set ?

Everyone welcome to answer but I would like to hear off the butches too.

The pressure I felt was pretty subtle at first - mainly because being or becoming trans wasnt as well known back in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s - at least not in my world - I didnt know of anyone who transitioned or even knew what that meant or entailed.

But even as a kid, people thought I was a boy - my mom would never let me cut my hair short so even in high school with long hair (actually a mullet - it was the 80s after all lol), I got sir'd all the time and people thought I was a man most of the time.

So when I was in my early 20s and struggling with my sexual orientation (read: trying to accept that I was a big ol' dyke), I considered transitioning because so many people thought I was a man already, I figured I might as well go ahead and fit what society is already seeing and assuming.

That led to a lot of introspection and a lot of talking about things with friends and I decided that I would be transitioning for the wrong reasons - I cant spend my life giving a fuck about how society sees me - whether they see the woman that I am or the man that they assume I am.

The truth was simple: I liked being a woman and didnt want to be a man. I just had to become "ok" with being a woman who also happened to be masculine and who would be mistaken for a man 90-95% of the time by the world at large (sometimes, even in gay bars - talk about being invisible :( ).

There was also a time in my 30s when sometimes some people in the trans community would tell me I should transition - that I already passed so why not go all the way, as if the ID &/or gender of butch couldnt stand on its own but instead had to be a stepping stone for a more evolved state of being: FTM.

That was frustrating and I still get that sometimes - the "oh you're just envious" or the "why dont you just transition already" comments, but I figure that has more to do with the insecurities of the people saying those things than me, my ID, or how I present myself.

It's a constant struggle to be seen - a struggle that is exhausting and a struggle that I sometimes just want to give up, but I also feel that it's a necessary struggle so that the butches coming up behind me will know that butch *can* stand on its own and not be part of an evolution into something or someone else.

[iamkeri1]

Parker
Thank you for sharing your own personal "transition" which for you ended in your acceptance of yourself as you are. That is the place I would hope for us all to end up. For some of us it does involve some level of drug therapy or surgery to help us move closer to the person we are in our head/soul, and fortunately for many of us these phyical "adjustments" are less necessary.

I have partnered most of my life with FTM individuals, but still there is a special place in my heart for a big ol' dyke. Thank you so much for taking on this struggle which I know is an almost constant one for you. You and other butch women (and feminine men) have throughout history carried the prinicple burden of discrimination on your strong beautiful backs. Your visibility, your unwillingness or inability to hide have evoked changes throughout history that have moved first individuals and then society to a greater acceptance of gender variant people in general. (As a femme I include myself in that group, along with queerfolk of all kinds.)

For me it is a treat (though I acknowledge that it probably does not equate as a treat for you in most circumstances), to recognize upon second glances that the person pumping gas next to me or standing in line to vote is a women, not the man that I unheedingly first perceived her to be. To give her a nod and receive back that flash of a smile, to share that moment of recognition (because I too, as femme, am most often invisible.) can bring smiles to my face for months after.
Smooches,
Keri

The pressure I felt was pretty subtle at first - mainly because being or becoming trans wasnt as well known back in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s - at least not in my world - I didnt know of anyone who transitioned or even knew what that meant or entailed.

But even as a kid, people thought I was a boy - my mom would never let me cut my hair short so even in high school with long hair (actually a mullet - it was the 80s after all lol), I got sir'd all the time and people thought I was a man most of the time.

So when I was in my early 20s and struggling with my sexual orientation (read: trying to accept that I was a big ol' dyke), I considered transitioning because so many people thought I was a man already, I figured I might as well go ahead and fit what society is already seeing and assuming.

That led to a lot of introspection and a lot of talking about things with friends and I decided that I would be transitioning for the wrong reasons - I cant spend my life giving a fuck about how society sees me - whether they see the woman that I am or the man that they assume I am.

The truth was simple: I liked being a woman and didnt want to be a man. I just had to become "ok" with being a woman who also happened to be masculine and who would be mistaken for a man 90-95% of the time by the world at large (sometimes, even in gay bars - talk about being invisible :( ).

There was also a time in my 30s when sometimes some people in the trans community would tell me I should transition - that I already passed so why not go all the way, as if the ID &/or gender of butch couldnt stand on its own but instead had to be a stepping stone for a more evolved state of being: FTM.

That was frustrating and I still get that sometimes - the "oh you're just envious" or the "why dont you just transition already" comments, but I figure that has more to do with the insecurities of the people saying those things than me, my ID, or how I present myself.

It's a constant struggle to be seen - a struggle that is exhausting and a struggle that I sometimes just want to give up, but I also feel that it's a necessary struggle so that the butches coming up behind me will know that butch *can* stand on its own and not be part of an evolution into something or someone else.

[Tye]

I think this thread is great. When I was younger I struggled with trying to understand who I was and how I fit into society. When I was around 19 I considered transitioning, because at that time I thought it was the only way I could be with woman and not have life a constant struggle. As time went on I realized I was becoming more happy within myself as I was a woman that was butch I'd. My family has always been supportive of my life and over the years I have had good friends and acouple relationships that helped me see it was ok to be who I was. I have a friend that was butch for many years and started transitioning Afew years ago. We have had many conversations about the issues he faces with this and at one time I felt he was pressuring me too transition and I finally told him I was happy with me and after I explained how I luv being a butch woman and don't feel as though I'm trapped in the wrong body he understood. I understand where he was coming from but once I explained I felt pressured we talked about it and our friendship was ok. I know what you meant by feeling like you lose apart of that friendship when one transitions, but we are still friends and wish the best for each other in our life journey.

[Corkey]

Just be YOU, whom ever that happens to be. Do not let others dictate who YOU are. You, only you, have that power.
Said for the umpteenth time.

Who ever you happen to be, rejoice in who YOU are.