Possible Triggering: Violence against butches.

[Merlin]

We call it gay bashing here.

Have you ever been assaulted for the way you look/being gay ?

Touch wood no-one has ever laid a finger on me (one of the benefits of passing ) but I feel like I am living on borrowed time.

[Blade]

Nothing has ever happened to me. I get looks sometimes, but that is about it. I'm hoping that nobody does anything stupid. I'm sorta like ummm "don't fuck with me I fuck back". I'd ignore people's stares or comments. Now if they put their hands on me I'd be like a fire breathing dragon.

[Ebon]

Like Blade I've never been assaulted. I do get stares and dirty looks which don't bother me. I've been called a faggot too.

[Daktari]

Nope never ever remotely had such problems. Just the inevitable looks and 'are you in the right bathroom?' comments that lots of us get.

[Blade]

Nope never ever remotely had such problems. Just the inevitable looks and 'are you in the right bathroom?' comments that lots of us get.

chuckling...yeah I get that a good bit too, or the WIDE EYED look is enough. But have never experienced anything aggressive

[citybutch]

Yes, was punched in the face while I was standing outside a bar in Boston in the mid eighties (Somewhere Else, anyone else remember it?). I was having a smoke waiting for a girl to come out. The bar was on a back side street downtown... and I was leaning against a pole. Some guy walked up and said "Hey butch, gotta light?" As I was pulling out my lighter he punched in the face and he and his friend ran off...

I had a nasty bloody nose... but it got a cute girl to take me home...

[Daktari]

chuckling...yeah I get that a good bit too, or the WIDE EYED look is enough. But have never experienced anything aggressive



D'yanno I've never experienced anything worse than "F*ckin' dykes!" once or twice or the "Get out of the women's bathroom" comments. I don't recall anyone having been aggressive because I'm quite obviously queer. Have I been lucky in the 20 odd years I've been 'out'?. I don't think so, I think it's more about how we deal with the world and people around us. I am pretty lucky that I live in a town with a significant gay population though.

Eeeek citybutch, that was rough luck.

[citybutch]

Oh yes... lot's of "fucking dyke" comments....

When I owned a woman's bookstore we had a lot of violence directed our way...

-bullet holes in the windows
-pornographic images of men's penises stuffed into our doorway at night
-harrassing phone calls
-young boys daring each other to run in circling the store yelling "fucking dykes"
-obscene graffiti sprayed on the side of our building

I could go on and on...


D'yanno I've never experienced anything worse than "F*ckin' dykes!" once or twice or the "Get out of the women's bathroom" comments. I don't recall anyone having been aggressive because I'm quite obviously queer. Have I been lucky in the 20 odd years I've been 'out'?. I don't think so, I think it's more about how we deal with the world and people around us. I am pretty lucky that I live in a town with a significant gay population though.

Eeeek citybutch, that was rough luck.

[AtLast]

I have been assaulted physically and sexually as both a butch lesbian and as a het woman in my lifetime. Certainly have had more assualtive behavior towards me as a butch.

I live in the East Bay Area of CA right near Richmond where a butch woman was kidnapped, beaten raped and left for dead a couple of years ago. The trial is going to start soon. There have been several benefits to raise $ for her and her partner and their kids.

Thanks for starting this thread- I am well aware of the attacks on our trans community, especially transwomen (highest percent), but we don't seem to focus on the unique elements of assualts (homophobia) on both butches and femmes (women, no matter the sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men). And we need to help fight against all forms of violence against our community.

I don't want anyone in queerdom to be subject to violence. Be safe out there!

[Greyson]

When I was a baby butch about 19 years old, I was sitting in a park with my girlfriend in downtown Albuquerque, N.M. A group of about four teenaged, young adult cismen came along and started to make vile remarks. I told my girlfriend to run. I have an orthopedic limitation and cannot run. I can walk fast and look very intimidating.

I got shoved a bit and I kept moving. I walked into downtown traffic made it to the other side of the street hopped on a bus that happened to be pulling away from the curb. The bus driver was an African American woman and must of seen what was going on. As soon as I was on the bus she closed the doors and pulled the bus into traffic. One of the teen boys, took some sort of pipe, club he had and smashed a bus window as it was pulling away from the curb.

I got very lucky and my girlfriend was not harmed. In hindsight, we realized they did not go after my girlfriend and their remarks were all directed at me. I was a Butch that fit the nongender conforming presentation.

I have had beverages thrown out of moving cars thrown at me as I walked down the street, various looks, profanity, racial and homophobic slurs. I did get punched one time when I was the bouncer at a lesbian bar in Los Angeles. It was a straight guy that thought he should be able to come into the club and help us see the light so to speak. When he saw that I had a back up team of about four other butches ready to enlighten him, he left.

I'm in my 50's and this stuff was in the 70's. Stonewall was only a few years behind us. I did meet many of the Butches and Femmes that came before my generation. They were the ones that really took a great deal of grief to live their lives, and pave the way for us.

[Lillie]

I have been assaulted physically and sexually as both a butch lesbian and as a het woman in my lifetime. Certainly have had more assualtive behavior towards me as a butch.

I live in the East Bay Area of CA right near Richmond where a butch woman was kidnapped, beaten raped and left for dead a couple of years ago. The trial is going to start soon. There have been several benefits to raise $ for her and her partner and their kids.

Thanks for starting this thread- I am well aware of the attacks on our trans community, especially transwomen (highest percent), but we don't seem to focus on the unique elements of assualts (homophobia) on both butches and femmes (women, no matter the sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men). And we need to help fight against all forms of violence against our community.

I don't want anyone in queerdom to be subject to violence. Be safe out there!

This is a great thread and bringing to light alot of sadness to some..however I do need to disagree with your one statement about (woman no matter what sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men)..knowing of a few stories over the years, I believe men fall victim just as much if not more at times then woman but it goes unreported due to shame or fear. I have a friend who's husband was raped in a walmart bathroom about a year ago..he did not report it even to her..this rapist then followed him home and about 5 months later when he was alone attacked him again in his own home..driving a screwdriver through his cheek and shoving nails through his testicals and a few other horrifying things. He is and will probably always be traumatized. he is in a support group currently and believe me when I tell you..there are alot of men out there.

Violence against anyone for being human is an astrocity..gay, straight, bi, trans, men, woman or child..

I am sorry for anyone in the community who has had anything violent happen to them. Being femme I have only had to deal with being "the fucking dyke" now an again..

have a great sunday!

[Linus]

Uh.. would anyone have any objections if I added "Possibly Triggering" at the beginning of the topic? Given some of the graphic descriptions that have appeared and that might yet appear, I can imagine that this might be a bit distressing for some.

[AtLast]

This is a great thread and bringing to light alot of sadness to some..however I do need to disagree with your one statement about (woman no matter what sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men)..knowing of a few stories over the years, I believe men fall victim just as much if not more at times then woman but it goes unreported due to shame or fear. I have a friend who's husband was raped in a walmart bathroom about a year ago..he did not report it even to her..this rapist then followed him home and about 5 months later when he was alone attacked him again in his own home..driving a screwdriver through his cheek and shoving nails through his testicals and a few other horrifying things. He is and will probably always be traumatized. he is in a support group currently and believe me when I tell you..there are alot of men out there.

Violence against anyone for being human is an astrocity..gay, straight, bi, trans, men, woman or child..

I am sorry for anyone in the community who has had anything violent happen to them. Being femme I have only had to deal with being "the fucking dyke" now an again..

have a great sunday!

I do see your point and violence against anyone is not OK. Statistics do overwhelmingly fall on the side of women being victims of violence in the US. Yes, men often do not report- especially if it is domestic violence they are experiencing- which is horrible because this is based upon sexist ideology.

My son was sexually abused at 13 by a woman (age 36)- I know very well and personally men and boys are victims of violence and sex abuse.

The thread is about violence to butches and in the Butch Zone. There are unique circumstances surrounding the types and kinds of violence we are subjected to and it is legitimate to discuss this. Sometimes, we need a space to talk about things that we experience as butches. This does not negate any other experiences of our entire community.

In no way do I think that violence against butches is more important or more horrible than violence against any other group of people. As a practicing psychologist for many years and a professor of psycology, I certainly saw the horror of this kind of victimization to every type and kind of human being. I read the research (still do as a retired person).

Frankly, I take issue with being snarked at in a butch thread within the butch Zone. If I went into a trans or femme thread within those specific forum Zones and made a crack like this, it wouldn't go over well- and it shouldn't. Avery different thing than threads that are in the general forum zone areas.

[AtLast]

Uh.. would anyone have any objections if I added "Possibly Triggering" at the beginning of the topic? Given some of the graphic descriptions that have appeared and that might yet appear, I can imagine that this might be a bit distressing for some.

Linus- I do object. Would you add "Triggering" to threads about violence against transpeople, or femmes? Or, Stone sexuality, BDSM, etc. threads all within their respective Zones? Doing this is distressing to me because the thread is within the Butch Zone.

[Linus]

Linus- I do object. Would you add "Triggering" to threads about violence against transpeople, or femmes? Or, Stone sexuality, BDSM, etc. threads all within their respective Zones? Doing this is distressing to me because the thread is within the Butch Zone.

Actually, if it got as graphic and might potentially cause someone to relive an attack, yes I would. It's not the who but the what. I can remove it but I was trying to be sensitive to those that may end up reliving attacks as a result of reading here and not realizing how graphic the discussion might get.

[AtLast]

Actually, if it got as graphic and might potentially cause someone to relive an attack, yes I would. It's not the who but the what. I can remove it but I was trying to be sensitive to those that may end up reliving attacks as a result of reading here and not realizing how graphic the discussion might get.

OK, this makes sense to me. I am a little sensitive to not being able to have a butch space. Although, I would most certainly call out anyone that made any that made transphobic, sexist, racist, etc. remarks in any zone or thread.

I mis-read your intent-

I was hoping that the thread would be a safe place for butches to talk about our experiences as butches. And I'm sure many transguys that identified as butch prior to transitioning would have a lot to add as well as support- they have lived it too.

[Heart]

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

First of all, it is simply not true that men are victims of violence "just as much if not more" than women. No one should be subjected to violence, but please take a look at FBI statistics, Dept of Justice statistics, and world-wide statistics such as those distributed by Amnesty International, and you will see that women suffer from violence in staggeringly, unequivocally higher numbers than men. A "few stories" one hears does not translate to men being vulnerable to violence at the same rate as women. Yes, if all men reported violence/abuse their stats would go up. but if all women reported, (which they do not and cannot), their stats would go up as well, and the statistical ratio would not likely change all that much. Men are more likely to be attacked by strangers. Women are more likely to be attacked by intimates, which makes them less likely to report.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.

Heart

[Daktari]

I'm so very sorry that any of you have had violence visited upon you because of your sexuality.

I count myself even luckier that I haven't had that experience.

[AtLast]

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

First of all, it is simply not true that men are victims of violence "just as much if not more" than women. No one should be subjected to violence, but please take a look at FBI statistics, Dept of Justice statistics, and world-wide statistics such as those distributed by Amnesty International, and you will see that women suffer from violence in staggeringly, unequivocally higher numbers than men. A "few stories" one hears does not translate to men being vulnerable to violence at the same rate as women. Yes, if all men reported violence/abuse their stats would go up. but if all women reported, (which they do not and cannot), their stats would go up as well, and the statistical ratio would not likely change all that much. Men are more likely to be attacked by strangers. Women are more likely to be attacked by intimates, which makes them less likely to report.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.
Heart

Yes we are targeted as non-conforming women/females in the eyes of the attacker. And this is very difficult for a lot of us- especially when we embrace more fluid definitions of gender as well as try to navigate the world as a butch person. This is a unique dynamic that I wouldn't mind hearing about from other butches from a butch perspective. I have not always identified as a butch and value other butches experiences that have dealt with these things for a long time (and prior to tranistioning).

[atomiczombie]

I haven't been physically assaulted, thank heaven. About 6 years ago when I was working at the Harley dealership, I was outside directing the motorcycle traffic into the parking lot during a special event we held. Some teenage boys came down the street in their pick up and yelled "F*ggot!" at me, and I (at the time I ID'd as butch) said its DYKE you idiots!! a bit louder than I probably should have since I was at work, but I was pissed.

Also around that time I was walking from my car up the long driveway to my apartment and some other teenage boys started following me. I could hear them whispering and laughing. I was so close to turning around and asking them what the fuck was so funny, but I was close to home and I didn't want my kid and wife to see me getting my ass kicked. That is the only time I have felt my personal safety was in danger. I just kept walking and went home. One of the boys lived in my complex so they knew where I lived already.

I have gone into a grocery store, only to come out and find that someone had spit all over my windshield. I still get stares all the time, dirty looks, etc. Someone put scrapes all over my HRC sticker on my bumper of my previous car. Guess they couldn't rip it off. I am sure there are other little things like this but this is all that comes to mind right now.

I count myself lucky to have only experienced these small things. I am really sorry to hear that so many of you have had it a lot worse.

[BullDog]

I have never been sexually or physically assaulted. I have been threatened with physical violence. I've had dyke yelled at me many times. I have had males on more than one occasion get up close into my personal space to try to intimidate me. I had a guy once sit next to me on the bus and make fun of my small amount of peach fuzz over my upper lip (don't think it's enough to qualify for mustache, lol). I had two guys come and sit right next to me at a restaurant and start talking homophobic crap (I got up and moved). I have been out with a femme and had men ask why they would be with an ugly woman like me. I once was visiting a femme and her mailbox was vandalized. I have been denied service at barbershops. I've been told I don't belong in the men's department and had store clerks talking to each other wondering why they are always stuck helping the freaks. I've had lots of weird stares and dirty looks and people sometimes seem to avoid sitting next to me.

I feel very fortunate that I have not experienced sexual or physical assault like so many other butches have.

[Hack]

I've never been physically assaulted. I've been verbally assaulted a few times. My favorite being when I was called "he/she/it -- whatever you are" by an irate customer at a video store I used to manage. Once while in Nashville, my girlfriend and I were followed down the street by some drunken men who were saying rather rude things. I turned around once and said something back, which threw them off, I think, because they stopped following us.

When I am in places I am not familiar with, I feel myself being more aware of my surroundings. But I don't live in a paranoid state. I tend to approach people without apology, meaning I don't act timid or apologetic because I am queer. My attitude is pretty much -- this is me, deal with it.

[Rockinonahigh]

I had to look twice at the title of this subject,Merlin tks for starting it.Over the years I have had some things happen that were either stuff I could just blow off to haveing to out right hot quit a job for my own safty,yes I did all I could do to go threw the chain of comamd to see if this could be stoped but it did little good.It was sexual harrasment to the tenth degree,it got to where this bio male person was parking his car next to mine in the employees parking lot and as we got off work at 2:am in the morning I was walking into a near dark area,no security guard,no security cams... nada,needless it had already become a very dangerous situation for me.This happened at a local casino,finaly it all ended up in the HR department but as I had felt I had to walk out of the job for my own safty..I was at fault for quiting..Yes they did a minor investagation into it but I was told no one would back my story even tho it was something every one on my shift and department knew what was going on..better theire jobs be safe that anything pertaining to me.I talked to an attlrney he said I had to have whittnesses that were willing to tell the truth in a court of law.The lawyer in fact told me to suck it up cause I would play hell in proveing it.I wished I had had a way to persue this but its been a long time as this happened on 2005.The rest of the crap ive delt with has been stuff about the bathroom or comments about the butchie boi thinks hes a man thing or just plain beng ask to leave a resturant once cause the group I was with made the customers incomfortable..ect,ect.
One thing that has been on my mind is me flying to little rock for the reunion,will I have any probs to deal with at the airport or the public,beleave me its not stoping me from going.I have a ride if I can swing the time to leave off on hys scedual.

[EnderD_503]

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.


I disagree. There are butches out there who have been assaulted not for being a non-conforming woman, but for being a non-conforming or "unidentifiable" person. In that way, many who are identified as "queer" "not straight" or "non-cis" in some way are not necessarily being seen by their assaulter as a woman or even as a man. They are "freaks" which is another aspect of the dehumanization that occurs in violent and sexual assaults against non-conforming people.

Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women. But plastering that one experience on every butch is an incorrect generalization...and vice versa of course.

The second issue is that if one does not experience themselves as a woman, if one does not identify as a woman, then I believe it's wrong to generalize and say that they experienced the assault as a woman. Thinking back to the assault of Branden Tina as an example, after his death so many tried to write him off as a "lesbian" and even the movie they made about him tries to portray him as a woman following the sexual assault he experienced. I think that it is really important in these conversations to recognise that differences in experience, as far as saying whether someone experiences something as a "man" or as a "woman." I would never say that a transwoman who has been raped experienced her rape as a "man," for example. Saying that butches who don't id as women or female experience assault as a woman also feels like the aggressor who is trying to "correct their orientation/gender" through rape has achieved their goal both in their own eyes and in the eyes of outsiders looking in on the situation...that male id'd butches or trans id'd butches are "guys until they get raped." In such traumatic cases I think we should be more understanding of how each victim perceives their own assault.

Instead of bringing instances of XY men being raped, or non-butch women being raped into this thread, why not just stick to how butches feel about the issue no matter if they id as a woman or not.

[Ebon]

Yes, was punched in the face while I was standing outside a bar in Boston in the mid eighties (Somewhere Else, anyone else remember it?). I was having a smoke waiting for a girl to come out. The bar was on a back side street downtown... and I was leaning against a pole. Some guy walked up and said "Hey butch, gotta light?" As I was pulling out my lighter he punched in the face and he and his friend ran off...

I had a nasty bloody nose... but it got a cute girl to take me home...

Boston is where I got called the F word. lol

[BullDog]

Ender, Heart said many butches, not all.

[AtLast]

My personal experience with rape, harrassment, and physical assualt has been keely tied to homophobia and sexism as a female/woman as a butch individual.

I sure see how these can be experienced differently depending on gender identifications because it is variable and complex.

Most of the verbal assaults I have experienced have been very homophobic in nature- dyke, queer, bull-dagger, etc. being used in a derogatory and taunting manner. Things like "you want to suck my dick" or "cock" being slung my way. When I was younger, there were more than a few times the old "all you really need is a good fuck" (by a man of course) was hurled my way.

I can't count the times I have been accused of really wanting to be a man due to my butch presentation. Butches are not viewed as legitimate women or men. Which, actually has been something that has given me a better understanding of all forms of violence related to gender across the board. I am woman not recognized as such by heteronormative society and the traditional binary.

[kaka]

I am butch and have been ridiculed alot when i was a teen, I know what its like to be gay and have to hide especially if you live in a red neck state and city. And all this was in the late 70's.

[Merlin]

I get the stares,the name calls - have had freak loads ..
Lemon,dyke,un - natural .. Etc etc.
Never been roughed up ..

Try to have a thick skin but names can hurt more than a smack.

[Quintease]

My boyfriend was knocked out cold in a homophobic attack once, when he still appeared female. He says it still makes him nervous in certain situations even now.

[LaneyDoll]

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker.


First, I am a femme so my comments may not be suited for this thread and if you feel that way, then please allow me to apologize.

BUT, I can relate to the first line of this quote. I have had TWO offenses and (at least) THREE near misses and ALL were directed at me by men.

I dated a genderqueer woman in my past and she used to stress to me "people will cause problems for us if we are out, if it becomes physical, you run and get help, I am used to it." It literally broke my heart that someone gets used to being attacked for being who they are. I could not ever decide-do I listen to her-run for help or stay? How on Earth could I leave, knowing she was about to be hurt? How could I stay and not at least try to get help (I am not physically strong enough to fight off more than one person)? And, why were there people in the world, willing to hurt others, simply for who they loved?

[asphaltcowboi]

hmm i have been both verbaly and phisicaly attacked not once not twice but a few times.. ha! an i spent most my life in the bay area calif! never been sexually asulted (unless you count that one femme i knew and i liked it). ok so the most phisical attack was coming out of a gay bar, i was jumped an knifed cut in the lower private areas still have scares. just for walking out of the bar i guess.i dont think it would have mattered if i was butch or gay or any of the ID's i believe it was just haters...another time i went to visit my g/f at work she was a bartenter in a sports bar and ended up being beat by a pool stick and that was because i was butch and dated a beautiful woman.. the guy even said "so you think your good enough to be a man?" wtf he meant by that i douno and im not going back to ask. it wasnt like i was putting my realtionship out for the whole straight crew to dwell on. another time i was ruffed up pretty good by some cops that were just doing there job, i did do wrong but soon as they realized i was female the treatment got alot rougher. there has been several more times but i think the most hurtfull one came from my or what i thought was my own comunity. a soft butch telling me that i was rediclouse looking and why didnt i soften up my looks then telling my g/f why didnt she just date a guy.. i dont know this seemed to hurt more than any phisical abuse i suffered.. im not sure if it was because i new alot would agree or the fact that it felt like it was coming from family.

[Soon]

A little over five years (pre-transitioned) ago my husband got kidney punched--hard--in Orlando at The House of Blues b/c these guys saw him with three attractive women and they HATED it. He could not see, obviously, who did it b/c it was from behind.

He reported it to security (off-duty police), but that off-duty guy didnt give jack shit and looked at Daniel with disgust.

(These words are largely Daniel's)

I do have to say, now that he is recognized as a man, he has no issues with harrassment and gets actual *nods* from men instead. That is deserving of another thread entirely--I have seen it.

[Heart]

Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women. But plastering that one experience on every butch is an incorrect generalization...and vice versa of course.



WTF?

Dammit Ender I did NOT say every butch, I said many butches. Nor did I speak for anyone, I spoke theoretically about butches who experience assault because the attacker sees them as non-conforming women, which frankly rapists consider the exact same thing as a freak. Do you think Brandon Tina's rapists saw him as a man for one second? This is exactly the nature of homophobic, sexist rapes. The identity of the victim is erased. In fact MEN are raped in order to feminize them, to strip them of manhood. So, don't lecture me about identity in the face of rape Ender. And for you to equate what I said with the perpetrator is beyond comprehension, incredibly offensive, and hurtful. I have zero desire to interact with you again.

[BullDog]

It doesn't matter whether you identify as a woman or not. If you are not read as male you are subject to rape as a non-conforming woman. I also agree with Heart that many (if not most) rapes perpetuated against men is a way to feminize them, as a form of humiliation. Rape is about power not sex. Military regimes also attempt to feminize men as a way to humiliate and torture. I seriously doubt Branden Tina's rapists thought they were raping a man. I don't believe too many people are raped as "its." They know what parts a person has when they are raping them and most people don't go much beyond the gender spectrum of man and woman. Remember how we are supposedly fighting the binary?

All the stories told by butches so far point to lots of homophobia. If the butches were being read as straight males that would not be occurring.

If you want to help fight homophobia and transphobia and sexism stand up with women. You are being treated the same or very similar when it comes to sexual assault. Homophobia and transphobia share the same root as misogyny- that is sexism. Within sexism male and man is valued over female and woman. Stand WITH women- you are being treated similar or the same because of how women are devalued and brutalized. Stop trying to lecture women and stand WITH us.

[Kätzchen]

BullDog, do you mind if I add to your thoughts on this?

I know first hand that rape is about power.

I identify as a Femme but not too long ago (less than three years to be exact), I most often was mis-read as being butch (especially by others claiming the identifier of Femme). Before that, it wasn't even about how I identified. It's think it's painfully apparent that I am female and that I am a woman and not so apparent that I'm a Femme.

So to me, it's not about butch or femme identity.

To me, the tool of rape is about power.

[AtLast]

WTF?

Dammit Ender I did NOT say every butch, I said many butches. Nor did I speak for anyone, I spoke theoretically about butches who experience assault because the attacker sees them as non-conforming women, which frankly rapists consider the exact same thing as a freak. Do you think Brandon Tina's rapists saw him as a man for one second? This is exactly the nature of homophobic, sexist rapes. The identity of the victim is erased. In fact MEN are raped in order to feminize them, to strip them of manhood. So, don't lecture me about identity in the face of rape Ender. And for you to equate what I said with the perpetrator is beyond comprehension, incredibly offensive, and hurtful. I have zero desire to interact with you again.

They certainly do- take a look at court transcripts of homophobic hate crimes including sexual assault against butches. Public record- and there is research supporting this- lots of documentation. Which is great because this kind of docummented evidence is needed to demonstrate to get anti-hate crime legislation on the books- for all groups that are targeted for hate crimes.

[AtLast]

A little over five years (pre-transitioned) ago my husband got kidney punched--hard--in Orlando at The House of Blues b/c these guys saw him with three attractive women and they HATED it. He could not see, obviously, who did it b/c it was from behind.

He reported it to security (off-duty police), but that off-duty guy didnt give jack shit and looked at Daniel with disgust.

(These words are largely Daniel's)

I do have to say, now that he is recognized as a man, he has no issues with harrassment and gets actual *nods* from men instead. That is deserving of another thread entirely--I have seen it.

This brings back a couple of situations that happened to me with straight me that had a problem with my being with a woman (femme) that obviously they just could not fathom being a lesbian. In fact, this was the circunstance of my being jumped by 3 men as we left a club. They were waiting for us outside. It was very scary for both of us. I was hit over the head with a broken beer bottle. Mt gf at the time feared being raped by them- so did I. Lucky for us, a group of people (mixed straights, gays and lesbians) came out and intervened. One ran back inside and asked the bartender to call the police. LOL.. back in the day, before cell phones!

I actually had something like this happen recently- although I was not hit. But the husband of a woman I befriended at my local dog park got riled when she introduced me one day. Later, as I got to know her better, she told me she is bisexual and they have an open marriage. But he can't stand to see her with a woman that is or could be a lover. Yikes! I just enjoy walking and talking with her with our dogs. I'm fine with their marriage agrements and her bisexuality, but, have no interest in getting involved with her. Not in my comfort zone. But even now, if I am walking with her and he shows up at the park, his whole demeanor changes. I did talk to her about this and the fact that it makes me uncomfortable- she said she told him we are not lovers. I don't know about that. But she has not tried to pursue a sexual relationship with me after I made it clear that I wasn't interested. Who knows- I only run into her every month or so.

[Quintease]

she is bisexual and they have an open marriage. But he can't stand to see her with a woman that is or could be a lover. Yikes! I just enjoy walking and talking with her with our dogs. I'm fine with their marriage agrements and her bisexuality, but, have no interest in getting involved with her. Not in my comfort zone. But even now, if I am walking with her and he shows up at the park, his whole demeanor changes.

Doesn't sound very open to me.

[Merlin]

Can I also add that some butches may not identify as female butches, you wear the skin your given. I am biologically female though my entire being to the core including thoughts is male identified.

I believe I am gender dysphoric,not on the scale of transition as I am happy to live my day to day life as a male in appearance. I don't need T or an operation to pass,I live my life how I want.

I have no body clock ticking,no yearning to embrace my womanhood .. I get told I should be a feminist .. That I should embrace it .. That people died for women's vote etc etc ..

People have died all the way through history,over race,religion,orientation,disability and war !!

I am thankful for stonewall for what my gay ancestors went through in history ..

There is always going to be someone who wants you dead .. Or someone who hates you .. Or someone you will never see eye to eye with.

But ain't that life ?

[afixer]

it's happened enough to me at my current address that i'm considering moving. :(

[dykeumentary]

Very interesting thread. Here is my possibly triggering reply.

I have been attacked several times in my life, and one aspect of this that i don't think has been covered in this thread is how class intersects with violence against butches. I have had many dirty, hard, physical labor jobs, and so dress in work clothes that appear to be "gender non-conforming" even if that's what makes sense for that kind of work. Also, I am out as a butch lesbian. This has enraged many working class guys to the point of wanted to harm me. Because of the financial circumstances at different times in my life, environmental conditions were advantageous to men who wanted to hurt or kill me (physical isolation from someone who might help, noisy industrial places where my yells for help couldnt be heard, not enough light to see who the people were, co-workers afraid to lose their jobs in support of me, etc.) For example, I have been beaten at construction sites where I worked, and also beaten as I had to walk home late at night (bus lines had stopped). Being a poor woman is just more dangerous generally. There is no heirarchy of oppression; its just that 'the way things are' makes poor women more vulnerable physically, and then they have fewer options for there to be support, or even legal recourse after the attacks. Heaven help the poor _________ . (fill in the blank with your favorite deviant).

(Side note: Domestic worker rights are queer rights -- Congrats to domestic workers for the victories lately!)

And here's an odd one: Once I was getting beaten up, the men were hitting and kicking me and yelling "fucking dyke!" the whole time. Some men came running over to help, and because of them the attackers were arrested. The police report of the incident (that I had to sign while strapped to a back/neck board in the hospital) didn't include any of that language from during the attack. I asked the officer, and he said "I didn't want to embarass your family." Go figure.

[EnderD_503]

WTF?

Dammit Ender I did NOT say every butch, I said many butches. Nor did I speak for anyone, I spoke theoretically about butches who experience assault because the attacker sees them as non-conforming women, which frankly rapists consider the exact same thing as a freak. Do you think Brandon Tina's rapists saw him as a man for one second? This is exactly the nature of homophobic, sexist rapes. The identity of the victim is erased. In fact MEN are raped in order to feminize them, to strip them of manhood. So, don't lecture me about identity in the face of rape Ender. And for you to equate what I said with the perpetrator is beyond comprehension, incredibly offensive, and hurtful. I have zero desire to interact with you again.

Did you even look at the portion of your post that I bolded? I have no problem with anyone saying "many butches" experience blah blah blah, but when you follow that up with claiming that they experience it "as women" and then followed by a comment on how it doesn't matter that they don't identify as women, I have a problem with it. To couple that experience of rape or physical assault or any kind of assault with a claim that it is "as women" and that it is an experience "as women" despite that they don't identify as women, then yeah I'm gonna see that as erasing, and yeah I'm gonna call it out.

You also didn't address the second part of my post that went into explaining my stance even further. While Brandon Teena may not have been seen as a man while he was being raped, neither do I think he was seen as wholely female. I think the relationship between aggressors and transgender or even intersexed bodies and how they experience the assault is different. I think it's a simplification of the situation and how various gender identities experience assault. Brandon was not experiencing assault "as a woman" from the victim's perspective, he was experiencing it as a transguy with gender dysphoria. Identifying as trans or as a male identity in addition to being body dysphoric and what one experienced with those challenges during a sexual assault is a different experience than being an XX woman. It's not "worse," it's entirely equal in its atrocity, but it's different and that should be recognised. Just the way many physically disabled women who experience rape have different challenges and feelings regarding their experience than able-bodied women and so on.

That is my point. And yes I do think using that phrase "as women" in conjunction with saying "even if they don't id that way" is harmful. Going back to Boys Don't Cry, again just look at the portrayal of Brandon added by the director. After he is raped he is then portrayed as a lesbian and his dysphoria seems to magically evaporate. Even Tisdel said that never happened, yet the director put that in there anyway as a reflection of her own perspective. It's not a totally uncommon view and I have a right to find it disturbing.

To clarify again since I may or may not have made it clear enough in my initial post: my objection is to the experience "as women" in conjunction with "even if they don't id that way." My objection is also partially that that phrase was used to address the derailment by talking about the rape of XY men. To me this should be a thread about butch experience, that is (as far as its language) not dismissive. To me the offense is not just that someone brought up the rape of XY men in a thread about "women's experiences with violence"...it's moreso that it's brought up in a thread about butches who were born XX whether they identify or are identified by others are women or not. The bottom line should be butch experience, past and present.

[EnderD_503]

To me the offense is not just that someone brought up the rape of XY men in a thread about "women's experiences with violence"...it's moreso that it's brought up in a thread about butches who were born XX whether they identify or are identified by others are women or not. The bottom line should be butch experience, past and present.

In retrospect I would like to amend the last part of my post so that it more accurately includes butches who were born XY but who identify as women as well as intersex butches who are also not born XX.

My apologies if I caused offense or discomfort with that final portion of my post.

[Heart]

Ender - you misread me and misread my use of the word experience. I am talking about the attacker's perspective and its relationship to rape as a tool of power and control. You either don't see that or you wish to continue engaging about something that I am not referencing. If you wish to discuss the victim's identity and the impact rape has on that, as well as critique "Boys Don't Cry," fine - go ahead. That's a worthy discussion. However, it is unrelated to what I was saying.

Further, your implication that I am somehow the aggressor when I discuss the rape of female bodies and the attempted obliteration by the rapist of whatever identity may be housed in that body, reads as shifting accountability away from the rapist to me. Fuck that.

This is the last I will engage with you on this topic.

I will also bow out of this thread so as to stop taking space from those butches and folks sharing their experiences of violation. Peace and safety for all is my fervent wish.

Heart

[Andrew, Jr.]

Yes, I have been physically & verbally assulted by not only the straight community but the glbt community as well. One day I will have peace. Some people think its funny or cute to gossip as well. They have no idea of how the words they speak hurt someone, and those around them.

:moonstars:

[AtLast]

Very interesting thread. Here is my possibly triggering reply.

I have been attacked several times in my life, and one aspect of this that i don't think has been covered in this thread is how class intersects with violence against butches. I have had many dirty, hard, physical labor jobs, and so dress in work clothes that appear to be "gender non-conforming" even if that's what makes sense for that kind of work. Also, I am out as a butch lesbian. This has enraged many working class guys to the point of wanted to harm me. Because of the financial circumstances at different times in my life, environmental conditions were advantageous to men who wanted to hurt or kill me (physical isolation from someone who might help, noisy industrial places where my yells for help couldnt be heard, not enough light to see who the people were, co-workers afraid to lose their jobs in support of me, etc.) For example, I have been beaten at construction sites where I worked, and also beaten as I had to walk home late at night (bus lines had stopped). Being a poor woman is just more dangerous generally. There is no heirarchy of oppression; its just that 'the way things are' makes poor women more vulnerable physically, and then they have fewer options for there to be support, or even legal recourse after the attacks. Heaven help the poor _________ . (fill in the blank with your favorite deviant).

(Side note: Domestic worker rights are queer rights -- Congrats to domestic workers for the victories lately!)

And here's an odd one: Once I was getting beaten up, the men were hitting and kicking me and yelling "fucking dyke!" the whole time. Some men came running over to help, and because of them the attackers were arrested. The police report of the incident (that I had to sign while strapped to a back/neck board in the hospital) didn't include any of that language from during the attack. I asked the officer, and he said "I didn't want to embarass your family." Go figure.

Shit!

Class seems to be forgotten often in our discussions, I think. Time we changed this.

[Merlin]

I liked my thread title better.

What does the triggering thing mean ?

[Gemme]

I liked my thread title better.

What does the triggering thing mean ?

There were one or two posts that had some fairly explicit stuff that could possibly be triggering for someone reading it. It just means that those coming into this thread know that there has been some stuff that may or may not bring up some painful memories for them.

[Queerasfck]

I liked my thread title better.

What does the triggering thing mean ?
Triggering means it might cause emotional harm to some readers by it's contents.

When you start a thread you should think about the impact it might have or what results you wish to achieve. It shouldn't just be for "shock" value. I'm curious--did you just want everyone to share their experiences or are you looking for something else?

[Merlin]

I wanted to know what others had been through.

I didn't expect many to answer as it's personal.

I am shocked at the severity of violence and am wondering if it's worse over there than here.

I am thinking of those who have posted here . . Just wanted to say that.

[Merlin]

It wasn't for shock value.

[AtLast]

I wanted to know what others had been through.

I didn't expect many to answer as it's personal.

I am shocked at the severity of violence and am wondering if it's worse over there than here.

I am thinking of those who have posted here . . Just wanted to say that.

Thanks for starting the thread! Unfortunately, the US is way up on the list in terms of violence of all kinds as a country. Makes me sad to know this about my country.

A lot of work to done if we are ever going to change this.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I also think we need stronger laws for those who are violent, esp. when it comes to assult, battery, and rape.

[citybutch]

Way up on the list? Where is this documented? I believe that violence against those who transgress gender expectations is rather universal. In fact, those who transgress heterosexual expectations in some countries of this planet are threatened with government sanctioned death...

I don't think the US is on any different platform than most countries .. but if we are I would love to see that study.

Thanks for starting the thread! Unfortunately, the US is way up on the list in terms of violence of all kinds as a country. Makes me sad to know this about my country.

A lot of work to done if we are ever going to change this.

[Kätzchen]

I disagree. There are butches out there who have been assaulted not for being a non-conforming woman, but for being a non-conforming or "unidentifiable" person (adding color to emphasize Ender's choice of terminology).


In that way, many who are identified as "queer" "not straight" or "non-cis" in some way are not necessarily being seen by their assaulter as a woman or even as a man. They are "freaks" which is another aspect of the dehumanization that occurs in violent and sexual assaults against non-conforming people (Fantastic observation, thank you for articulating this).


Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women (I have edited this portion of Ender's phrase of thought).


(I have edited Ender's preface to their second point, please see original post if necessary; I have narrowed this particular phrase for clarity of thought for my own purposes, so I am able to attend to Ender's focus, logic) . . . Saying that butches who don't id as women or female experience assault as a woman also feels like the aggressor who is trying to "correct their orientation/gender" through rape has achieved their goal both in their own eyes and in the eyes of outsiders looking in on the situation...that male id'd butches or trans id'd butches are "guys until they get raped." In such traumatic cases I think we should be more understanding of how each victim perceives their own assault.




(Again, I have edited Ender's post for clarity so I can attend to the focus of logic presented - see Ender's original post if necessary)


Did you even look at the portion of your post that I bolded? I have no problem with anyone saying "many butches" experience blah blah blah, but when you follow that up with claiming that they experience it "as women" and then followed by a comment on how it doesn't matter that they don't identify as women, I have a problem with it. To couple that experience of rape or physical assault or any kind of assault with a claim that it is "as women" and that it is an experience "as women" despite that they don't identify as women, then yeah I'm gonna see that as erasing, and yeah I'm gonna call it out.



That is my point. And yes I do think using that phrase "as women" in conjunction with saying "even if they don't id that way" is harmful.

To clarify again since I may or may not have made it clear enough in my initial post: my objection is to the experience "as women" in conjunction with "even if they don't id that way." My objection is also partially that that phrase was used to address the derailment by talking about the rape of XY men. To me this should be a thread about butch experience, that is (as far as its language) not dismissive. To me the offense is not just that someone brought up the rape of XY men in a thread about "women's experiences with violence"...it's moreso that it's brought up in a thread about butches who were born XX whether they identify or are identified by others are women or not. The bottom line should be butch experience, past and present.


When I was here last night, reading through this forum discussion, I posted a limited accounting of possessing first hand knowledge of how rape was experienced by me - a person who identifies as a Femme and as a person who has in the past been mistaken as a butch. I also submitted my perceptual view of rape as a tool of power. I want to add that although rape is used as a tool of power, what I failed to communicate is that, rape used as a tool of power is also an abuse of power.


I felt compelled to come back and enter the discussion again. So I copied and edited two of Ender's comments because Ender and I are friends. I highly respect Ender's acuity, Ender's formal education and Ender's cross-cultural life experience which richly shapes Ender's informed perspective. I value Ender as a member of this community. Ender, I hope you don't mind that I narrowed the focus of your logic in order to call attention to detail that may have been lost within the topic of discussion.


Ender, I like how you framed your persuasive argument in calling to task the very issue at stake: Rape - and how it is used as a tool of oppression; a tool of power to control or cause conformity among members of a population who do not adhere to dominant social standards in highly political ways.


I like how you refrained from using specified identifiers as an ally to those who do not identify within a binary sex and gender spectrum as a "person." When I hear Ender (or any person or member here) frame their persuasive argument with sensitivity to the human element of being a "person," then I know they care about how human beings are affected by coercive power and control of the abusive form of power exerted - specific to the context of this discussion is it framed and called - rape.


I like it that Ender added the specificity of the term "person" because I feel it spans perceptions and includes my experience with the abusive form of power and control - rape. I am a person. I am a human being. I am many things but what causes me to hear Ender's argument much clearer (especially because I can be slow to fathom all dimensions of detailed communication) was the use of the term "person."


I believe that Ender expressed this beautifully: "That is my point. And yes I do think using that phrase "as women" in conjunction with saying "even if they don't id that way" is harmful."


If I understand what you have articulated Ender, what I hear you saying is this: That if we are to claim that women are viewed as subordinate to the ordinant, that women are accorded no value in socio-cultural dimensions of society (here or anywhere), then the counter-proposition of saying 'that even if they don't ID that way" cancels the power of the first claim. If I have rendered your statement with the intention you build into your statement, then it causes me to feel that you are indeed thinking past the binary limitations that governs the use of language used in the current discussion. For how are we (the general we) allies to those in our own community, the community here online, or the community abroad (for instance, the audience of this specific online membership, I imagine, is far-reaching to those who are reading from the sidelines wherever they reside) if we do not allow ourselves to include diverse perception not akin to our own?


Thank you for investing your time and energy Ender in articulating your perspective and acting as an ally to all, rather than just those who cling to a particular identity. I want to also add that I do not percieve you as lecturing, although my having been schooled formally has conditioned me to attend to lectures. What I want to say is this: I am encouraged by your participatory actions in a highly diverse base of communicators and as a communicator myself, I want to be attentively responsible as possible in various contexts of communication - especially when the subject of discussion is about coercive forms of power and how it affects each of us personally and communally as a whole.

[Converse]

We call it gay bashing here.

Have you ever been assaulted for the way you look/being gay ?

Touch wood no-one has ever laid a finger on me (one of the benefits of passing ) but I feel like I am living on borrowed time.

Yes of course, all of the verbal assaults, the majority of which have happened when I’ve been with a Femme- I have never fully understood why, perhaps others have thoughts on that.

And of course the bathroom sagas of boyfriends waiting for me to come out after their girlfriends have told them about the “freak” they saw inside. Then an incident that started with a comment about my tie, as I stopped at a gas station late one night, that led to a car chase and some dented panels, and twice a gun held to my head; one from the Femmes family member who would have been able to “deal with it” if I “at least looked like a female”, and the other from a stranger in a parking lot who didn’t like the look of me.

I’ve felt rage and fear and embarrassment because of attacks, the first I remember happened in high school when I was held down so I could be branded with my very first “label” courtesy of a lit cigarette – but I think of everything, two incidents stand out for me the most: the first came on a beautiful sunny afternoon when an older woman beat me with a bible as I tried to walk past; and the second were the words that came from a family member who while offering me ice for a blackened eye said “well what do you expect walking around looking like that”.

[asphaltcowboi]

yes it happens more often then most will know alot of us/me just dont like to admit alot of the verbal that bothers...( me/us).. and i know i dont want to talk about any kind of sexual violence.. i think alot goes un reported because of butch pride... i know thats the case for me. if im asked where this scar or this bruise or why my distant state of mind i will pass it off as something else. every once in awhile ill talk about some of it to a close friend or my sister. it often makes me wonder if i some how bring it on myself for being who i am, not meaning putting my beliefs/lifestyle in everyones face. but for the simple things i do like wearing my levis,boots,tats, hair cut,ect. things i am confertable wearing
in response to a rep.... yes it happens everywhere!!

[AtLast]

Yes of course, all of the verbal assaults, the majority of which have happened when I’ve been with a Femme- I have never fully understood why, perhaps others have thoughts on that.

And of course the bathroom sagas of boyfriends waiting for me to come out after their girlfriends have told them about the “freak” they saw inside. Then an incident that started with a comment about my tie, as I stopped at a gas station late one night, that led to a car chase and some dented panels, and twice a gun held to my head; one from the Femmes family member who would have been able to “deal with it” if I “at least looked like a female”, and the other from a stranger in a parking lot who didn’t like the look of me.

I’ve felt rage and fear and embarrassment because of attacks, the first I remember happened in high school when I was held down so I could be branded with my very first “label” courtesy of a lit cigarette – but I think of everything, two incidents stand out for me the most: the first came on a beautiful sunny afternoon when an older woman beat me with a bible as I tried to walk past; and the second were the words that came from a family member who while offering me ice for a blackened eye said “well what do you expect walking around looking like that”.

yes it happens more often then most will know alot of us/me just dont like to admit alot of the verbal that bothers...( me/us).. and i know i dont want to talk about any kind of sexual violence.. i think alot goes un reported because of butch pride... i know thats the case for me. if im asked where this scar or this bruise or why my distant state of mind i will pass it off as something else. every once in awhile ill talk about some of it to a close friend or my sister. it often makes me wonder if i some how bring it on myself for being who i am, not meaning putting my beliefs/lifestyle in everyones face. but for the simple things i do like wearing my levis,boots,tats, hair cut,ect. things i am confertable wearing
in response to a rep.... yes it happens everywhere!!

Both of these posts make my heart ache. It aches for we butches, our transmembers and the experiences of femmes that happen. Some of us just have had some pretty violent attacks against us and I can so relate to often, just keeping it inside. One reason I was really glad to see this thread is because I do think we all can hold in this stuff. And it felt good to have a butch centered thread to talk about it all. Even though I hate hearing other's stories, it does feel like I am not alone. I'm sure this also goes for our many trans members and femmes. But I know it isn't easy to post about it- thanks.

To this day- and I am 60 years old, I have not told one family member about the violence/rape I have encountered as a lesbian and as a butch.

[Jett]

I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this, but it feels very linked in to this thread. I experienced sexual assault more than once before I began "appearing" butch in my late teens, after growing into that "butch look" more I'd experienced physical and a lot of verbal assault.

At this time I no longer outwardly appear even close to as butch as I once did, MUCH harder to peg and I have to say I am jaw dropping like staggered at how extremely consistently differently I am treated. Being outwardly butch for decades I was well aware of the stares and slurs and like I said getting in scraps... but I was never aware how many ppl were just remaining silent.

When I walk around now, ppl talk to me, "Hey hot enough for you?"... "Are you my new neighbor?" "Hey looks like that dog is walking you!" lots of joking all the people that smile at me... and just say hello... some ppl did this before, but the difference is like I said, absolutely freaking staggering. I had no idea, even being smack dab in the middle of it (I was "outwardly" butch for over twenty years). In my opinion butches experience a form of double jeopardy... being/females physically and or women and also gender variant and queer. Maybe like triple jeopardy I guess.

Now... today, walking down a lonely street I am more, feel more keenly aware of the risk to me of sexual assault (perhaps just my own perception or ghost of the past haunting me) but feel (hindsightedly) much more aware of the danger of being butch in this world. I can't even feel good about all the "kinder" attention now, I feel guilty when it happens... and I think about all my bro's and sisters out there.

Like I said... I don't know where I'm going with this... kind of rambling out things that have been on my mind, but I'll just say pls be AWARE and be SAFE...

[Merlin]

Quoted by Yoda in the star wars movies and also used in the facebook group wipeout homophobia but it is a wise statement.

Fear is the path to the dark side,Fear leads to anger,anger leads to hate,hate leads to suffering.

[AtLast]

I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this, but it feels very linked in to this thread. I experienced sexual assault more than once before I began "appearing" butch in my late teens, after growing into that "butch look" more I'd experienced physical and a lot of verbal assault.

At this time I no longer outwardly appear even close to as butch as I once did, MUCH harder to peg and I have to say I am jaw dropping like staggered at how extremely consistently differently I am treated. Being outwardly butch for decades I was well aware of the stares and slurs and like I said getting in scraps... but I was never aware how many ppl were just remaining silent.

When I walk around now, ppl talk to me, "Hey hot enough for you?"... "Are you my new neighbor?" "Hey looks like that dog is walking you!" lots of joking all the people that smile at me... and just say hello... some ppl did this before, but the difference is like I said, absolutely freaking staggering. I had no idea, even being smack dab in the middle of it (I was "outwardly" butch for over twenty years). In my opinion butches experience a form of double jeopardy... being/females physically and or women and also gender variant and queer. Maybe like triple jeopardy I guess.

Now... today, walking down a lonely street I am more, feel more keenly aware of the risk to me of sexual assault (perhaps just my own perception or ghost of the past haunting me) but feel (hindsightedly) much more aware of the danger of being butch in this world. I can't even feel good about all the "kinder" attention now, I feel guilty when it happens... and I think about all my bro's and sisters out there.

Like I said... I don't know where I'm going with this... kind of rambling out things that have been on my mind, but I'll just say pls be AWARE and be SAFE...

Thank you for posting this. Certainly resonates with me- in reverse. It wasn't until the past decade that I really came into my butch identity more in terms of outward appearance. Although, I too, have been both sexually and physically assualted in my life and continue to be very aware of vulnerability to rape as a woman, there is a big difference in exactly the things you mention- people (as in "general" public) are much less likely to greet me and say hello or even hold any eye contact. How I am treated by store employees, etc. in stores is different., etc. I have had incidences that I talked about previously happen much more often than when I was just a "regular" lesbian such as name calling and the usual verbal sexual challenges by men. I won't use public transportation alone or late at night anymore.

I felt much safer prior to allowing myself to let the "butch look" just be for myself. There has been a cost even though I know I live in a much more open geographic region in the US.

[asphaltcowboi]

Very interesting thread. Here is my possibly triggering reply.

I have been attacked several times in my life, and one aspect of this that i don't think has been covered in this thread is how class intersects with violence against butches. I have had many dirty, hard, physical labor jobs, and so dress in work clothes that appear to be "gender non-conforming" even if that's what makes sense for that kind of work. Also, I am out as a butch lesbian. This has enraged many working class guys to the point of wanted to harm me. Because of the financial circumstances at different times in my life, environmental conditions were advantageous to men who wanted to hurt or kill me (physical isolation from someone who might help, noisy industrial places where my yells for help couldnt be heard, not enough light to see who the people were, co-workers afraid to lose their jobs in support of me, etc.) For example, I have been beaten at construction sites where I worked, and also beaten as I had to walk home late at night (bus lines had stopped). Being a poor woman is just more dangerous generally. There is no heirarchy of oppression; its just that 'the way things are' makes poor women more vulnerable physically, and then they have fewer options for there to be support, or even legal recourse after the attacks. Heaven help the poor _________ . (fill in the blank with your favorite deviant).

(Side note: Domestic worker rights are queer rights -- Congrats to domestic workers for the victories lately!)

And here's an odd one: Once I was getting beaten up, the men were hitting and kicking me and yelling "fucking dyke!" the whole time. Some men came running over to help, and because of them the attackers were arrested. The police report of the incident (that I had to sign while strapped to a back/neck board in the hospital) didn't include any of that language from during the attack. I asked the officer, and he said "I didn't want to embarass your family." Go figure.
i would like to add a little to this great post.. it has seemed to me beeing a butch that has always worked in male dom fields it seemed the better i was at my job the more i would be bashed/targeted by my male co-workers.
i dont think its quite as bad today as it was in my bar curousing days but gay establishments were always in back alleys in bad neiborhoods. witch made us easy targets for haters.

[dykeumentary]

i would like to add a little to this great post.. it has seemed to me beeing a butch that has always worked in male dom fields it seemed the better i was at my job the more i would be bashed/targeted by my male co-workers.
i dont think its quite as bad today as it was in my bar curousing days but gay establishments were always in back alleys in bad neiborhoods. witch made us easy targets for haters.
^5 for butches in male dominated work places

Yes that's so true about the locatoon of the bars. And the coded names of the bars, too!
Having the gay bars be out of the way also had advantages for the cops, too. When they were having a slow night or whatever, they'd cuff us as we left thr bar, and take us down to the station to run our records. I'm sure they were glad not many people were watching that harassment.

[Glenn]

This thread triggers alot of anger in me because of what I've seen, been through, and heard about, plus, I'm born a little hot-blooded to begin with. I've yelled at cops, thugs, whatever, when I've seen some bully bigger or out-numbering someone: WHAT THE ***DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING? I'm surprised I have'nt got in more trouble than I have. I empathize with you all greatly, but we have to stand up to bullies. I know what it feels like when guys get in your face threatening you, and punching you, while you weakly look around for help. Most people ignore dangerous situations that can turn violent, even though there are twenty againest one assaulter, they still cower and do nothing, and walk past, or come by later asking if you're ok. Where I came from, you don't ask, you just pull the trigger. If my life is on the line, you better believe somebody's going to sleep. So yeah..from now on I'm packing heat, and don't test my accuracy with my Glock-it's deadly. Read the conceal and carry laws and self defense laws in your state, then go buy a KahrPM9 and carry it with you. If anybody tries to assault you and yours, tell them forcfully to leave, if they keep on trying to assault you, then it's open season. If someone tries to **** with you stand in front of your femme if you are out-numbered or outsized,and they threaten you with a weapon or fists, then it's open season. There's no excuse to let yourself be terrorized. If the police are'nt there to protect me, then that duty is up to me.

[*Anya*]

Yes of course, all of the verbal assaults, the majority of which have happened when I’ve been with a Femme- I have never fully understood why, perhaps others have thoughts on that”.

My thoughts, as a femme, as to why this happens is based on my personal experiences when I was in my 20's & 30's. Bio men that are insecure tend to look at femmes/ feminine women, as their property.

It confuses and threatens them to see an attractive younger femme with a butch female. I literally had a couple ask me one time: "What does she have that I don't have?" I wasn't afraid for myself as much as I was afraid of potential violence against my ex-butch (or I might have explained it to them).

This type of thing did not happen when I was out with my femme girl-friend. They were not threatened by two feminine women together. If they knew I was gay, they in fact, found it titillating.

My ex-husband paid minimal child support when I was with the femme but when I got with ex-butch, he became very angry and stopped paying, period. "What she can't support you...?"

[Rockinonahigh]

I have gotten the wrong bathroom coment lots of times right along with a manager of a wall mart comeing into the bathroom to tell me security was comeing to remove me from there,I showed her my drivers licence wich solved the problem but the situation dose happen again when I go to wall mart and some other places.Often I am very aware of the comments and stares of f-in dyke or dam trannies comments,when I was much younger I was involved in some outright fist fights because of being who I am.Even now in places where I least expect to deal with this it happends,lately its happends at one of the pool halls I go to by another butch on one of the other teams...she gives me the worst dirty looks or makes filipant coments all the time..whene ever my team is in a match with hers she always manages to not play a match with me and has told her team captain she wouldnt so not to play us against each other.I have no clue what her prob is,but its hers not mine.A couple of months ago a gay man was beat up at a pool hall by a straight man with the but end of a pool stick very badly and is now in a nurseing home due to his injuries leaveing him so messed up.
I just keep it in mind cause to get to comfy isnt being careful as much as I would like it to be other wise,I park my car in as safe a place as possable and hopefuly a placed where a security cam is avalable,not that its would do much for protection but as some evedence if I ever needed it..if the cam even works or is used.In this day and age its too bad we have to still deal with such violence against glbt folks,I doubt if it ever will be totaly gone but do have hopes it will become a punishable crime to be taken seriously and steps taken to punish the perps and make it stick insted of brushing it off into some other chatges...hate is hate no matter how u paint it.

[AtLast]

Another electrifying packing device to consider! Yes, I have put a 250 plus pound jackass down to the ground with this!

http://www.personalarms.com/stun_gun/pics/MultiFunctionStunGun-Large.gif

I don't want to carry a firearm and these are legal in almost all states and very effective.

[Glenn]

When said jackass is boring down on you with intent to harm or kill you, you will have to wait until you make contact and hold it on them for a good 4 or 5 seconds with some stun guns. This gives them time to brush it away. You also have to factor in the resistance of the human body. Is he wearing inductive clothes? Does he have a weak nervous system? This is why there are instances where stun guns can kill people, or be brushed off like a bee sting. It has it's uses, it's better than nothing, but I still would'nt use this for home self defense.

[rustedrims]

All i am thinking is WoW.!!.
Guess i dont have it so bad..

I have been living in this little town all my life so people around here see me often and am part of the landscape..I did get my garden hose cut but that was a direct result of my sisters troubles trickling into my life..{Another Thread}..

Think it was the fall before last i got home from work and saw a "Gay Word" spray painted on my mailbox..Found out later it was some kids..We had a warm night and they needed something to do i guess..The thing is they spelled it wrong..There are easer words to spell to get the point across..I got a can of black spray paint and painted over it and eventually changed my mailbox and post..It needed it anyway..

In the work place..
There were a few comments said behind my back..I eventually heard about them from people telling me..Newspapers were layed out in my work area for me to see..Mostly about Gay Marriages when that was in the news..I wanted to grab those papers wad them up in a ball and shove them down the guys throat that left them there..Yeah the guy who couldnt get a date and if he did never lasted but a few weeks..SO SO bad i wanted to get up and tell those people i worked with at the time that they need to read those articles because i Do know what is going on and that they needed to educate themselves..!!..That was hard to hold in..

My most trouble..
My family tree is kinda on the unhealthy side..I wanted to stay more healthyer so i ran my dog every morning and started lifting weights..I kept that up regularly and people noticed my build was changing..Then i heard the comments..Alot of them..I noticed the guys that were making the comments were 30-40 pounds over weight or was having trouble at home..People dont say to much anymore because they know i will confront them about it..Kinda tell them if you want to know anything about me why did you ask someone else you should ask me..Did that to one guy and he had alot of nothing to say..I do remember a guy asked a guy i worked with who was hung better you or her..??..Well if you gotta ask then i guess it is ME..!!..He was over weight and not happy at home..Guess that made him feel better saying that about me..Ya know the thing was that i was tearing my house apart room by room and i didnt get very much help..I had to pick up everything by myself and it was easer if i had a little build to my body..That is all that was..I wasnt trying to be Atlas by any means..

[ButchEire]

I can't imagine living like that, jesus. I guess i've been lucky that every man in my life has treated me like a guy. Subsequently, my cousin taught me early on how to fight and hold my own. I've never been in a situation where i've been threatened at all. I've been in some of the worst places in the United States for violence too, including Newark and never had a problem.

[RNguy]

Inside work I'm all business. I don't socialize a lot at work because I'm pretty OCD about work and serious . I catch a hard time about that . My recreational activities are hunting and fishing mostly so unlike my coworkers I don't go to bars or anything like that . My coworkers a lot of times after work go out to bars and drink and cut loose especially if its a coworkers birthday. I never go and I always catch reef about not socializing and cutting loose . This was 10 years ago , I finally gave in and said ok ill go join you coworkers when I get off work at 11. I was leery as this was a straight bar , country music type of bar and I've only been to a bar once prior . Just not my thing . I wasn't 7 steps in the bar and 2 cowboys approached me and said " hey faggot the stonewall is down the road , youre in the wrong place here fag " the other cowboy knocked me plum out . I didn't remember getting hit , I was laid out cold . My coworkers picked me up , carried me out and drove me home . I bet smokey stood over top of me and said you got knocked the !@#$ out :) . Anyways that's the one thing I have experienced . I had a nice shiner for a while though. It's sad folks are so hateful - RNguy

[AtLast]

When said jackass is boring down on you with intent to harm or kill you, you will have to wait until you make contact and hold it on them for a good 4 or 5 seconds with some stun guns. This gives them time to brush it away. You also have to factor in the resistance of the human body. Is he wearing inductive clothes? Does he have a weak nervous system? This is why there are instances where stun guns can kill people, or be brushed off like a bee sting. It has it's uses, it's better than nothing, but I still would'nt use this for home self defense.

Actually, it was pretty easy to get him on the stomach and just 1 second made him move back and he was confused just at that sensation and the sound. Then, I did hold it about 3 seconds on him and he dropped. I ran like hell. The whole idea was to get out of the situation. There are also wands available.

[Glenn]

Yeah... well you have to trust your gut and be quick, like that scene in "Taxi Driver". Some cowboys trained dropping a coin from their waist, counting the seconds till it hit the floor.The guy who is angriest and gets the first hit, wins from what I, and others experienced in street fighting. The first street fight I had was with a pretty femme gang member who was smiling at me, I got distracted looking at her face, and she decked me!

[AtLast]

Yeah... well you have to trust your gut and be quick, like that scene in "Taxi Driver". Some cowboys trained dropping a coin from their waist and counting the seconds till it hit the floor.The guy who is angriest and gets the first hit, wins from what I've experienced in street fighting. The first street fight I had was with a pretty femme gang member who was smiling at me, and I got distracted looking at her face, and she decked me lol!

LOL... sure do have to! I don't believe any one way is the best way to defend oneself. And anything can go wrong. I do like to have something with me just in case and have thought about a handgun. But, I am really just not comfortable with that. I also don't have a problem at all with people choosing to carry a gun as long as they know what the hell they are doing and have a permit for it. I grew up around guns in our home but we all had to get training and practice at a firing range. And family members were hunters.

[maskandmiror]

Nope never ever remotely had such problems. Just the inevitable looks and 'are you in the right bathroom?' comments that lots of us get.

juste peace and love all people worlds 2012 and all yers after 2012

[MarineCorps1]

I've never been physically assaulted, but I've come close - At fourteen, I was riding bikes with a friend, and we went past the home of one of our school's football players. He was outside & saw us, and came running across his yard at me & when he got close, he kicked out at my bike, screaming at the top of his lungs, "YOU LOOK LIKE A FUCKING MAN!!!!" (I was wearing ripped up jeans and a T-shirt.) It was broad daylight on the main street of a small town.

At the time, I had no idea of what my identity actually was, and I couldn't understand why it was that I looked like a man when my friend was wearing essentially the same thing, and she didn't. I wasn't offended at being told I looked like a man, I just didn't understand it.

Beyond that, I've gotten the usual - People driving by and yelling at me, stares, etc.

[Tuff Stuff]

We call it gay bashing here.

Have you ever been assaulted for the way you look/being gay ?

Touch wood no-one has ever laid a finger on me (one of the benefits of passing ) but I feel like I am living on borrowed time.

I was not only beat up I was also raped in my life because I am a butch woman.

Both times this happen when I was a very boyish looking teenage cad..too confident in my mannerism that they had to Show Me.

It was one of the main reasons I started boxing and weightlifting.One time professional boxer Loreto Garza trained me at a local gym in Sacramento back in the 1980s.I owe him a great deal.Alot of the moves he taught me I believe saved my life more than a few times since.

These days i'm a huge looking "guy",I get mistaken for a dude all the time.I still enter amature nights at the Casino..hey,a thousand buck purse is still :greendollar:

Anyways..what happen to me in the past can still happen..you just have to be careful..its quite dangerous for everyone these days.

Take care of yourselves and your loved ones. :fastdraq:

[Mormegil]

Ive never had violence thank God , I get looks now and then. Im still growing into myself so to speak. Seem to be growing more masculine in the last couple year , feels right. But ever since i was a kid Ive been mistaken for a boy.

People are like " Sir? , excuse me sir? " or I had a kid say "hey mister" at work the other day. Doesnt bother me at all . The fact Im a 44 DD makes me worry these people are in need of serious eye care but other than that lol

Had some bottles thrown at me from cars when I was out trying to exercise , some shouting at me but couldnt make out what he said.

Only other time I ever felt on guard even was when I briefly dated a woman earlier this year and I wanted to hold hands in public. I wouldnt have worried so much if she hadnt been so concerned. But I watched the people around us and for the most part nobody even noticed. I mean had a couple people looking at our hands then look away , but this is the south .

I carry a knife on me at all times just incase but despite the area , I never heard of gay bashing or violence towards butches or anyone. Had some bible thumpers at the gay pride but they just stood there waving posters and left when they relized we were just ignoring them .

[AishasWrath]

I've gotten grief from people for being butch...lots of it, in subtle and blatant ways. What's interesting is I got the more overt meanness after I gained weight. Before when I was skinny I only got passive-aggressive nastiness that was cloaked in therapy language about it.

"There's that F-word who thinks he's a D-word," that statement still haunts my dreams. It was the first strike of a campaign of harassment that nearly cost me my college education. "I have gay friends, but that...disgusting." "Crazy." "Stupid." The friends I had, my self-styled caretakers, weren't there. They said I was exaggerating and overreacting. They told me to ignore it. Some of them poked fun at me for being masculine too. Oh, but it was all in good fun! And it was justified because if I actually identified as male I wasn't marginalized so it was totally ok...and they had license to disparage masculinity all the time in front of me and roll their eyes if I protested...I was on my own. Being stalked, harassed, followed...probably nonconsensually photographed and videotaped, maybe even doxxed. And it was either "you're imagining it," "just ignore it," or that I somehow deserved it for getting above myself or betraying some group who laid claim to my life.

Before that, my mode of being was taken for a mental illness. People tried to read sexism, racism, any and every -ism they could into it. There were all the hoary old anti-butch mudslings and then some. Because I wasn't "doing butch" in the stereotypical way and I wasn't exclusively attracted to women, there were more. My affiliation with masculinity was construed as a toxic need for power and a statement of oppressiveness. "If you identify as female, why don't you want to be feminine? If you identify as male, what's wrong with being female? If you're butch, why do you want to have long hair and wear eyeliner? If you're attracted to men, why are you stone? If you're stone, why do you focus on your own pleasure? Why can't you be masculine in a more appropriate (read: preppie) way? Don't challenge men or make them angry, they're bigger than you and could hurt or kill you! Stop taking martial arts classes and working out, violence is bad and you could hurt someone!" These sentiments were from a self-professed feminist therapist.

Not following the sexist rules for socializing got twisted into "lack of social skills" or "lack of empathy." Getting mad about it was out of the question. I had to internalize all of that or continue to be incarcerated and overmedicated.

And by the time true naked bigotry reared its ugly head I wasn't in a position to effectively fight back, or have what was going on acknowledged. It's so seamless, creepily seamless, almost like it's theme-park engineered. I don't know what to make of it, other than something has gone wronger than wrong.