Stone Femme?

[lillith]

After reading the Stone Butch thread, I decided that maybe we could open the door to discuss what it means to be a Stone Femme. And if the guys wish to participate, tell us what it is about a Stone Femme that gets you. I will start by copying and pasting my post from the Stone Butch thread.

The very first time I heard the term, I thought, "OK. They must smoke a lot of weed." I asked that question, and was very fortunate to have someone in my life who gently laughed and said, "No." When hy explained things to me, it made sense to me, but I also felt a curious mixture of excitement and repulsion. I told hym that I needed some time to digest what hy said. I understood why I was excited, but I couldn't wrap my head around why I was repulsed. After a couple of days and some serious searching, I came to the conclusion that it was too hetero. I was dedicated to my lesbian sex. I explained all of this to hym, and we agreed friends would be best. There was a nagging, deep feeling I couldn't shake about it all, though. I approached hym and asked hym to show me. And good God-Almighty, did hy ever! Things were so profound that I could no longer say that I was lesbian. I had been "flipped," as it were.

It has been many years since that story, and I have learned that there is no predescribed definition. I have met stones who are hardcore no you don't touch me except for my back to stones who don't look at their biological sex as something other than a mini cock that should be worshiped. I think the point for me is that I am who I am. I am a pleaser and giver and a receiver. What all those mean depends on the relationship and what is agreed to and at any point agreements can change because there are no set rules for me.

[CherylNYC]

My answer, copied and pasted from the Stone Butch thread:


Because I'm a stonefemme my ideal partner would be a stone butch. My late gf was nearly stone, so it worked out very well for us. She allowed a certain amount of touching under some rare circumstances, but it wasn't common for her to be very interested in that sort of thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lillith
"... There was a nagging, deep feeling I couldn't shake about it all, though. I approached hym and asked hym to show me. And good God-Almighty, did hy ever! Things were so profound that I could no longer say that I was lesbian. I had been "flipped," as it were.

...I have met stones who are hardcore no you don't touch me except for my back to stones who don't look at their biological sex as something other than a mini cock that should be worshiped."


I don't see why being a stonefemme, or a stone butch for that matter, means that we aren't lesbians. My late gf IDed as such, and I certainly do, too. She was an old school butch who IDed as a lesbian, stone butch, butch dyke, and/or leatherdyke top. All of those IDs were female to her, and she didn't feel compelled to call herself anything other than a woman. A very, VERY butch woman. She had a vagina and a clit, just like any other woman. Being stone meant that she was the pitcher. My stonefemme nature means I'm the catcher. No more, no less.

I'm a lesbian and my sex is stone sex. I assume that no one on this site is going to be foolish enough to tell me that I'm not a lesbian because I'm a stonefemme.

*******************************

Lilth, I'm not devaluing your experience, but I have to say that I'm persistently astonished that there are so many people who think that stone can't be lesbian. I agree that many have a vision of 'typical' lesbian sex which involves taking turns doing the same things to each other in an egalitarian way. I don't think I know many lesbians who actually have sex based on that model. Each person and every combination of people tends to do 'it' and each other however they most enjoy it. The sex act doesn't define who is a lesbian, but the gender of the participants in said act might.

[lillith]

Hey, Cheryl. Lets move this discussion here? I, again, agree with you. There are many variables to defining any kind of ID, including one's gender. Like I said in the Stone Butch thread, I simply wanted to express my experience and what I can encountered.

[atomiczombie]

I have heard various definitions of stone femme, so I am wondering what it means for you ladies.

[CherylNYC]

I have heard various definitions of stone femme, so I am wondering what it means for you ladies.

I didn't know that 'stonefemme' was an ID until a friend told me that I was one. I had been struggling mightily with some really horrible guilt about what I couldn't do in bed. When I finally spoke about it out loud to my friend she was not only non-judgmental, she gave me a key that helped me finally understand something essential about myself. It wasn't an easy ID for me to claim at first.

My own manifestation of stonefemme is very much a part of my leather sexuality. I'm a masochist, and sexually submissive. As I noted above, I'm strictly a catcher, never a pitcher. That's very much tied up with sexual submission for me.

[atomiczombie]

I didn't know that 'stonefemme' was an ID until a friend told me that I was one. I had been struggling mightily with some really horrible guilt about what I couldn't do in bed. When I finally spoke about it out loud to my friend she was not only non-judgmental, she gave me a key that helped me finally understand something essential about myself. It wasn't an easy ID for me to claim at first.

My own manifestation of stonefemme is very much a part of my leather sexuality. I'm a masochist, and sexually submissive. As I noted above, I'm strictly a catcher, never a pitcher. That's very much tied up with sexual submission for me.

Yeah I only pitch and don't catch, so I hear ya. I used to ID as a stone butch, but now that I know myself better as a transguy, there really isn't an ID to go along with it it seems. No one really talks about being a stone transguy, that I have heard.

[cuddlyfemme]

I'm a stone femme and am very proud of it. I never realized that I was a Stone Femme untill I was in a relationship with a Stone Butch. When I found out what a Stone Butch was and what a Stone Femme was, I suddenly felt comlete. It seems to be hard to find a single Stone Butch, but I keep hoping that one will come along

[ScandalAndy]

Yeah I only pitch and don't catch, so I hear ya. I used to ID as a stone butch, but now that I know myself better as a transguy, there really isn't an ID to go along with it it seems. No one really talks about being a stone transguy, that I have heard.


Many of the transmen I know are "stone" while exploring their sexuality in relation to their transition. Although they may not identify as such, their behavior and discomfort with manipulation of their genitalia suggests a stone mindset.

[ScandalAndy]

Okay, so I'm going to come right out and be blunt about this since I"m confused and need a straight answer about this. I apologize for any discomfort my brevity may cause, but I can assure you I am coming from a place of curiosity and not animosity.


So, a stone butch is one who does not want physical stimulation of their genitals, and a stone femme is someone who receives genital stimulation but does not stimulate their partner genitally. Is this correct?


What if there is a butch or a femme who doesn't want to give or receive stimulation?

[Gemme]

Okay, so I'm going to come right out and be blunt about this since I"m confused and need a straight answer about this. I apologize for any discomfort my brevity may cause, but I can assure you I am coming from a place of curiosity and not animosity.


So, a stone butch is one who does not want physical stimulation of their genitals, and a stone femme is someone who receives genital stimulation but does not stimulate their partner genitally. Is this correct?


What if there is a butch or a femme who doesn't want to give or receive stimulation?

Yes and no. That could be a very basic example of what a Stone Butch and Stone Femme could be, but there are many layers of what Stone is and is not. Some have different boundaries as to WHAT bits can and cannot be touched. Also, there are femmes who are Stone who do not want to be touched either. They are the pitchers, so to speak.

For me, Stone means that there are boundaries in the way one likes to be touched (and not always just sexually). For some, those boundaries are finite and do not and will not change. For others, it depends on their partner as to what they are and are not comfortable with. For still others, they have some touch that do not allow and some that they do and still more that is fluid.

Stone is not something that you can look up in the dictionary and say "Aha! This is it EXACTLY!" because it is individualized and just doesn't work that way. There are general guidelines, but it always comes down to the person. ASK him/hym/hir/her/ze what they do and do not allow. If you had 100 Stones in a room and asked each of them what Stone means to them in terms of touch and what is and is not allowed, you will get some repeat answers but there will be far more highly individualized answers, I assure you.

[Gemme]

I have heard various definitions of stone femme, so I am wondering what it means for you ladies.

For me, being Stone means, in part, that I prefer to partner with either a Stone Butch or a Transguy. There are certain ways to touching my partner that are just not comfortable for me, so I do not engage in them. The kind of Stones and Transguys I have partnered with get that and don't want that kind of touch anyway.

Stone is not attached to my partner, though they may claim it as their own. Stone is me. My boundaries. My choices. My love. My sex.

[LaneyDoll]

ASK him/hym/hir/her/ze what they do and do not allow.


I agree 100%. I have always employed this practice when I begin to explore things with a new partner. I would rather ask than possibly insult. Besides, I think it takes the stress off someone when you say "please tell me how you prefer for me to touch or not touch you" rather than wait for them to broach the subject. There are ways to ask that are not mood breakers and I think those few moments spend make for a more fulfilling experience.

:sparklyheart:

[ScandalAndy]

Yes and no. That could be a very basic example of what a Stone Butch and Stone Femme could be, but there are many layers of what Stone is and is not. Some have different boundaries as to WHAT bits can and cannot be touched. Also, there are femmes who are Stone who do not want to be touched either. They are the pitchers, so to speak.

For me, Stone means that there are boundaries in the way one likes to be touched (and not always just sexually). For some, those boundaries are finite and do not and will not change. For others, it depends on their partner as to what they are and are not comfortable with. For still others, they have some touch that do not allow and some that they do and still more that is fluid.

Stone is not something that you can look up in the dictionary and say "Aha! This is it EXACTLY!" because it is individualized and just doesn't work that way. There are general guidelines, but it always comes down to the person. ASK him/hym/hir/her/ze what they do and do not allow. If you had 100 Stones in a room and asked each of them what Stone means to them in terms of touch and what is and is not allowed, you will get some repeat answers but there will be far more highly individualized answers, I assure you.



Thank you for this response. Admittedly, I ask and explore with partners as that ends with less disappointment and frustration so don't worry, I promise I'm not tromping all over people's comfort levels.

As I was reading this thread I kept seeing over and over people saying "when I found out I was a stone femme" or "when I learned what these words meant" but there wasn't any sort of explanation of what that meant for those of us who weren't quite sure. I didn't know if there was some magical definition out there that I hadn't found yet.

[Gemme]

Thank you for this response. Admittedly, I ask and explore with partners as that ends with less disappointment and frustration so don't worry, I promise I'm not tromping all over people's comfort levels.

As I was reading this thread I kept seeing over and over people saying "when I found out I was a stone femme" or "when I learned what these words meant" but there wasn't any sort of explanation of what that meant for those of us who weren't quite sure. I didn't know if there was some magical definition out there that I hadn't found yet.

Yes and, for $19.95 plus shipping and handling, you too can know the secrets of the Stones!

*grin*

You ever work at something really hard.....a task at work or maybe a word problem in school....and you can feel yourself getting closer to the answer but you are still confused about the process and are just not there yet? You kinda get it but not really? And then...out of nowhere...it comes to you? A :brightbulb: moment that changes how you see things and brings things into focus that had been fuzzy?

For a lot of us, that's how it is. We're too close to be objective or maybe just ignorant of the verbiage but when we figure it out, it just "fits* and the Universe gives us a cosmic high five.

For me, it kind of felt like being able to take deep, full breath after years of shallow breathing.

I don't know of anyone that looked it up or heard about it and just said "Yep, that's it" casually without it bringing their world into focus a bit more and/or creating a moment in their life that they would remember for all time. Personal identity is, well, personal and I have no idea how that kind of discovery could not change someone at their very core.

[CherylNYC]

...As I was reading this thread I kept seeing over and over people saying "when I found out I was a stone femme" or "when I learned what these words meant" but there wasn't any sort of explanation of what that meant for those of us who weren't quite sure. I didn't know if there was some magical definition out there that I hadn't found yet.

The simplest, most common understanding of stonefemme is that we don't penetrate our partners. Stonefemmes will often be unable to perform typical oral sex on their partner, but giving a blow job on their partner's butch cock is usually just fine. Stonefemmes often can't touch their partners breasts or chest in a 'feminising' way.

As Gemme mentioned above, there are also femme women who are stone just as a butch would be stone. They are the pitcher, and they don't catch. They are Stone Femmes. Yes, this is terribly confusing, and I've been agitating for a change in nomenclature for years.

[Gemme]

The simplest, most common understanding of stonefemme is that we don't penetrate our partners. Stonefemmes will often be unable to perform typical oral sex on their partner, but giving a blow job on their partner's butch cock is usually just fine. Stonefemmes often can't touch their partners breasts or chest in a 'feminising' way.

As Gemme mentioned above, there are also femme women who are stone just as a butch would be stone. They are the pitcher, and they don't catch. They are Stone Femmes. Yes, this is terribly confusing, and I've been agitating for a change in nomenclature for years.

For me, I write it as Stone Femme, because that's what looks best to me. I'll also use StoneFemme. However, you are right; most differentiate between the two using the space and sometimes the capitalization. It can definitely be confusing to someone who isn't sure.

[ScandalAndy]

The simplest, most common understanding of stonefemme is that we don't penetrate our partners. Stonefemmes will often be unable to perform typical oral sex on their partner, but giving a blow job on their partner's butch cock is usually just fine. Stonefemmes often can't touch their partners breasts or chest in a 'feminising' way.

As Gemme mentioned above, there are also femme women who are stone just as a butch would be stone. They are the pitcher, and they don't catch. They are Stone Femmes. Yes, this is terribly confusing, and I've been agitating for a change in nomenclature for years.




Okay, so in this particular context, what are you using "pitcher" and "catcher" to connote?


Thank you all for being so patient. I know it can be frustrating or uncomfortable to try and explain something as individualized as interpretation of one's sexual tendencies in the context of a label.

[Gemme]

Okay, so in this particular context, what are you using "pitcher" and "catcher" to connote?


Thank you all for being so patient. I know it can be frustrating or uncomfortable to try and explain something as individualized as interpretation of one's sexual tendencies in the context of a label.

Pitcher and catcher, of course, refer to baseball. The pitcher takes the Top role and the catcher takes the submissive role. Sometimes. That doesn't always come into play, though.

Play.

Ha.

ba dum BUM

Basically, instead of a baseball, the partners are throwing pleasure balls.

One receives the pleasure in an active manner. That's the catcher. By active manner, I mean the other person (the pitcher) is consciously doing things to create pleasure for their partner. The receiver provides pleasure to the pitcher in what could be referred to as passive or inactive manner by showing him/hym/her/ze that their initial actions have created a pleasureable reaction and the cycle builds from there.

I don't particularly care for terms inactive or passive, because it goes back to the whole 'being a pillow princess' thing. For some, that's a compliment. For others, an insult. And it's just wrong. If I'm enjoying my honey and what he's doing, I'm not just laying there. My innards are contracting, my hips moving, my nails digging into his skin, and he's going to hear it too.

Although, I AM a princess and I AM often on pillows.

Hmmmm.....

I think I just made this waaaaay more complicated than it needed to be.

:blink:

Let's try again, yes?

The dance that so many talk about is most evident during Stone sex to me. As is Newton's law. One action (pitching) creates an equal and opposite reaction (catching) and it goes on and on from there. The partners feed off of one another's enjoyment of one another and their shared pleasure until...ideally....kaboom.

[Jess]

I am so stealing "pleasure balls"... very enlightening thread, sorry for the derail.

Thank you :byebye:

[*Anya*]

As always, I speak for myself & my own experiences:

For 10 years my Stone Butch would not allow me to perform oral sex on her. Fucking her or touching her breasts were out of the question. She did feel comfortable masturbating in front of/with me.

I guess during this time I could have been considered a stone femme but it was not my own true sexual identity. Oh god, here goes: I love to eat pussy & I missed it somewhat but there were other obvious benefits in my relationship.

During our 11th year, she was a little tipsy & somehow I wound up fucking her & she liked it but it was a very, very rare experience thereafter and she never wanted to discuss it. It just did not fit with her own sexual identity or self-image. That was OK with me.

Did I love doing it-yes I did! Maybe I have a smidgen of femme top in me but that does not feel comfortable for me at all in my own self-image. I am open to just about anything but am not overtly aggressive sexually. I feel very shy sexually really and have to feel totally comfortable and safe with my sexual partner in order to let myself go. That letting go is very, very hard for me. Stems from my puritanical, rigid upbringing I am sure.

How can I be open to anything on one hand but am never the one to "make the moves"? I have no idea, if you can figure that one out, I'd be glad to know.

I really do hope it is OK to be so honest. I have no idea why I am-scares me a little. The Internet is forever. I just have not found so many like-minded souls before & at least for now, it is bubbling out of me. I think I better put a cork in it.

[ScandalAndy]

Personally, I'd rather you not limit yourself in your responses. I appreciate the honesty and sometimes processing it through writing can be very healing. Thank you for sharing, I am getting quite a bit of insight here.



As always, I speak for myself & my own experiences:

For 10 years my Stone Butch would not allow me to perform oral sex on her. Fucking her or touching her breasts were out of the question. She did feel comfortable masturbating in front of/with me.

I guess during this time I could have been considered a stone femme but it was not my own true sexual identity. Oh god, here goes: I love to eat pussy & I missed it somewhat but there were other obvious benefits in my relationship.

During our 11th year, she was a little tipsy & somehow I wound up fucking her & she liked it but it was a very, very rare experience thereafter and she never wanted to discuss it. It just did not fit with her own sexual identity or self-image. That was OK with me.

Did I love doing it-yes I did! Maybe I have a smidgen of femme top in me but that does not feel comfortable for me at all in my own self-image. I am open to just about anything but am not overtly aggressive sexually. I feel very shy sexually really and have to feel totally comfortable and safe with my sexual partner in order to let myself go. That letting go is very, very hard for me. Stems from my puritanical, rigid upbringing I am sure.

How can I be open to anything on one hand but am never the one to "make the moves"? I have no idea, if you can figure that one out, I'd be glad to know.

I really do hope it is OK to be so honest. I have no idea why I am-scares me a little. The Internet is forever. I just have not found so many like-minded souls before & at least for now, it is bubbling out of me. I think I better put a cork in it.

[ScandalAndy]

I love this description. Thank you, again, for being so patient and thorough with your answers (I will not run away with the innuendo that could so easily be put into that sentence). I am no stranger to the terms we are using, I'm just playing stupid, in a sense, so that I may understand how we are all using them in relation to ourselves.

You're quite right, everyone's interpretation of the words is different, so how can I share what it means to me in the context of conversation? For now I'm just going to keep asking questions so I can be sure of exactly what the poster is intending to convey. :)

Also, I'm a fan of the "pleasure balls" analogy.


Pitcher and catcher, of course, refer to baseball. The pitcher takes the Top role and the catcher takes the submissive role. Sometimes. That doesn't always come into play, though.

Play.

Ha.

ba dum BUM

Basically, instead of a baseball, the partners are throwing pleasure balls.

One receives the pleasure in an active manner. That's the catcher. By active manner, I mean the other person (the pitcher) is consciously doing things to create pleasure for their partner. The receiver provides pleasure to the pitcher in what could be referred to as passive or inactive manner by showing him/hym/her/ze that their initial actions have created a pleasureable reaction and the cycle builds from there.

I don't particularly care for terms inactive or passive, because it goes back to the whole 'being a pillow princess' thing. For some, that's a compliment. For others, an insult. And it's just wrong. If I'm enjoying my honey and what he's doing, I'm not just laying there. My innards are contracting, my hips moving, my nails digging into his skin, and he's going to hear it too.

Although, I AM a princess and I AM often on pillows.

Hmmmm.....

I think I just made this waaaaay more complicated than it needed to be.

:blink:

Let's try again, yes?

The dance that so many talk about is most evident during Stone sex to me. As is Newton's law. One action (pitching) creates an equal and opposite reaction (catching) and it goes on and on from there. The partners feed off of one another's enjoyment of one another and their shared pleasure until...ideally....kaboom.

[lillith]

Morning, gang!

Gemme, you are priceless. You are answers are eloquent and beautiful!
Andy, I am sure that no one will get frustrated with your questions; they seem honest and sincere.

OK, so being a Stone Femme means to me that I do not cross any boundaries that are established in a sexual, and/or emotional way. In other words, we all deserve a safe place to explore and by creating that space, I know that my guy feels good about what hy/he/etc. is doing. It is cycle, ya know. If he feels good, then he will want to make me feel good (emotionally, mentally, physically, and sexually), and that further encourages me to want to make him feel good. I know that this seems pretty common sense, but really, in a Stone's world, this can often be neglected. So for me, being Stone Femme is not just about sexual does and don'ts, its about acknowledging the whole person, not just ID. This part of my answer is also in response to Andy's questions.

[lillith]

I really do hope it is OK to be so honest. I have no idea why I am-scares me a little. The Internet is forever. I just have not found so many like-minded souls before & at least for now, it is bubbling out of me. I think I better put a cork in it.

You are gravy, sister! When I first found dash, I was the same way. Hell, I still probably talk too much...lol. Don't ever let anyone try to silence you either. I have not ran across that kind of attitude here on the planet, but there are other places that people will try to get you to shut up. Keeping speaking your truth no matter who has an opinion about it.

[ScandalAndy]

You are gravy, sister! When I first found dash, I was the same way. Hell, I still probably talk too much...lol. Don't ever let anyone try to silence you either. I have not ran across that kind of attitude here on the planet, but there are other places that people will try to get you to shut up. Keeping speaking your truth no matter who has an opinion about it.

What's "dash"?

[atomiczombie]

As always, I speak for myself & my own experiences:

For 10 years my Stone Butch would not allow me to perform oral sex on her. Fucking her or touching her breasts were out of the question. She did feel comfortable masturbating in front of/with me.

I guess during this time I could have been considered a stone femme but it was not my own true sexual identity. Oh god, here goes: I love to eat pussy & I missed it somewhat but there were other obvious benefits in my relationship.

During our 11th year, she was a little tipsy & somehow I wound up fucking her & she liked it but it was a very, very rare experience thereafter and she never wanted to discuss it. It just did not fit with her own sexual identity or self-image. That was OK with me.

Did I love doing it-yes I did! Maybe I have a smidgen of femme top in me but that does not feel comfortable for me at all in my own self-image. I am open to just about anything but am not overtly aggressive sexually. I feel very shy sexually really and have to feel totally comfortable and safe with my sexual partner in order to let myself go. That letting go is very, very hard for me. Stems from my puritanical, rigid upbringing I am sure.

How can I be open to anything on one hand but am never the one to "make the moves"? I have no idea, if you can figure that one out, I'd be glad to know.

I really do hope it is OK to be so honest. I have no idea why I am-scares me a little. The Internet is forever. I just have not found so many like-minded souls before & at least for now, it is bubbling out of me. I think I better put a cork in it.

Don't feel bad because you love to eat pussy. I love to eat pussy too!! :cheesy:

[Toughy]

OK, so being a Stone Femme means to me that I do not cross any boundaries that are established in a sexual, and/or emotional way.

Actually, every person should respect every other person's sexual/emotional boundaries. Everyone has boundaries. Those boundaries can change depending on who is in the bed or not change.

For many/most? Stone Butch is about no vaginal penetration (and perhaps no anal penetration) and breasts are not breasts, but are a chest. I think it's a mixed bag concerning blow jobs and the 'little cock' (the clit), but it is in the mind set that it's a blow job not sucking a clit. I have never known a Stone Butch (or Stone Femme Top) who turned down a blow job on the 'big cock'.

Stone Femmes (who are bottoms) generally balk at wearing a cock or vaginally penetrating any Butch with their fingers. Anal is a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag about blow jobs on the little cock, but definitely a go for the big cock. Touching nipples on the chest is also a mixed bag, but I have never met a stone femme who would cup a breast in their hand to suck the nipple. It's a different kind of touch for nipples on a chest.

I am completely Stone big cock identified in kink space. In non-kink space, my sexual boundaries are entirely dependent on the femme in my (her) bed and the energy between us.

-----------------
'dash' is a reference to another butch/femme website that many many many of us frequented before this big ass planet was created....there is a dash (-) in the name.

[DapperButch]

Actually, every person should respect every other person's sexual/emotional boundaries. Everyone has boundaries. Those boundaries can change depending on who is in the bed or not change.

For many/most? Stone Butch is about no vaginal penetration (and perhaps no anal penetration) and breasts are not breasts, but are a chest. I think it's a mixed bag concerning blow jobs and the 'little cock' (the clit), but it is in the mind set that it's a blow job not sucking a clit. I have never known a Stone Butch (or Stone Femme Top) who turned down a blow job on the 'big cock'.

Stone Femmes (who are bottoms) generally balk at wearing a cock or vaginally penetrating any Butch with their fingers. Anal is a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag about blow jobs on the little cock, but definitely a go for the big cock. Touching nipples on the chest is also a mixed bag, but I have never met a stone femme who would cup a breast in their hand to suck the nipple. It's a different kind of touch for nipples on a chest.

I am completely Stone big cock identified in kink space. In non-kink space, my sexual boundaries are entirely dependent on the femme in my (her) bed and the energy between us.

-----------------
'dash' is a reference to another butch/femme website that many many many of us frequented before this big ass planet was created....there is a dash (-) in the name.



Good information above, Toughy. I would only like to add that there are some Stone Butches where no vaginal touching/no chest touching whatsoever occurs. Just as there are Stone Femmes who do not participate in any vaginal/chest touching of Stone Butches.

Oh, and there are certainly both butches and femmes who do not like penetration, but do not identify as Stone...it is just something they don't particularly care for (just thought I would throw that out there before a non stone, non penetrating person takes offense!).

[AtLast]

Yes, respect sexual boundaries. Otherwise, one could become to what really amounts to a rapist (butch, femme, or otherwise). We are all different and all have every right to refuse any kind of touch/sexual act that we want to refuse. Without being questioned, manipulated, or judged.

Boundaries and comfort zones are important for all of us to identify personally and not be afraid to make known to lovers.

[WolfyOne]

I agree, boundaries are important no matter how you ID

I don't ID as Stone, but am enjoying the interaction of words in this thread

[*Anya*]

I truly appreciate the feedback, dialogue, perspectives & knowledge shared in this thread:) Thanks to all also for being so open with parts of yourselves that are so very personal.

[cinderella]

meaning to read every post before I commented - but, being the ol' crotechy bitch that I am, I didn't have the patience nor motivation - I am so jaded, I believe I've heard it all before.

Let me back up a bit...for years, I was a Lesbian - I didn't know any better, so that's what I always called myself. I was involved in sexually 'reciprocal' relationships. And by 'reciprocal' I mean - you do me, I do you. Well, that never sat well with me, and I'll tell you why. I was a lousy 'lesbian' - according to what the 'ideal' sort of 'lesbian' was supposed to be - reciprocal 'everything'. Well, I just couldn't go there. I was accused of being 'straight' because I - too put it bluntly - didn't enjoy/like going down on a woman - nor a man, for that mattter (I was 'straight' for the first 20 years of my life). I just did not like it, could not stomach it, didn't want to, etc. - I think you get the picture.

To me, being 'stone' is not touching/feeling up a butch - not that I would want to - I don't. Never mind, 'going down'! That to me - and I am only speaking for myself - is unspeakable! It is nothing I would ever want to do. So, anyone I partner with, would have to be stone in that way.

Ok, enough said about my preferences & personal interpretation of 'stone femme'...carry on.

[ScandalAndy]

Thank you all for your input. Toughy, Dapper, very helpful indeed, thanks!!!

I'm all for respecting boundaries and giving pleasure within what is enjoyable to whomever I am partnered with. I think it's important that it was brought up in this thread, and I'm really glad we're all on the same page about that.

As for "dash", that's hilarious to me because I originally signed up over there before the "p" stood for planet. Silly me, not putting two and two together to make four!

It appears there is much for me to examine about myself in relation to others and the dynamics of touch. Sure I've thought about it, but I've never really stopped to examine in depth the reasons for the emotions and feelings that I have about it. Good thread, all!

[BullDog]

Reciprocal sex is not the only type of sex that lesbians engage in. Lesbians are not the only people who engage in reciprocal sex. Lesbians' sex lives are just as varied as any other group of people- they can be kinky, vanilla, stone, not stone, like/don't like oral sex, penetration, etc. There are stone butch lesbians and stone femme lesbians.

[weatherboi]

my Ms is a stone femme, until She's not. Wink wink

[*Anya*]

"The true feminist deals out of a lesbian consciousness whether or not she ever sleeps with women."
{Audre Lorde}


"There are people that very strongly identify themselves as gay or lesbian, and then I think there are a lot of people who are kind of some percentage or some version of that. "
{Michael Stipe}

[AtLast]

meaning to read every post before I commented - but, being the ol' crotechy bitch that I am, I didn't have the patience nor motivation - I am so jaded, I believe I've heard it all before.

Let me back up a bit...for years, I was a Lesbian - I didn't know any better, so that's what I always called myself. I was involved in sexually 'reciprocal' relationships. And by 'reciprocal' I mean - you do me, I do you. Well, that never sat well with me, and I'll tell you why. I was a lousy 'lesbian' - according to what the 'ideal' sort of 'lesbian' was supposed to be - reciprocal 'everything'. Well, I just couldn't go there. I was accused of being 'straight' because I - too put it bluntly - didn't enjoy/like going down on a woman - nor a man, for that mattter (I was 'straight' for the first 20 years of my life). I just did not like it, could not stomach it, didn't want to, etc. - I think you get the picture.

To me, being 'stone' is not touching/feeling up a butch - not that I would want to - I don't. Never mind, 'going down'! That to me - and I am only speaking for myself - is unspeakable! It is nothing I would ever want to do. So, anyone I partner with, would have to be stone in that way.

Ok, enough said about my preferences & personal interpretation of 'stone femme'...carry on.

I appreciate your thoughts and whatever you just don't care to do certainly is a boundary you need to have respected.

I feel like you are making some generalizations about lesbian sex and stereotyping us. I certainly don't have a predetermined and narrow interpretation of what lesians always do. I haven't stuck to one and only one way of enjoying sex through all my years of lesbianism. Sex is fluid and can evolve. Identifying as a butch woman has not changed this at all for me.

Absolutely, sexual boundaries need to be respected. Stereotyping segments of the entire queer spectrum based upon what you individually have experienced and putting it into negative language (that is how this feels to me) is troublesome. As troublesome as when I see someone stereotyping or making negative judgements of a stone person. I am very careful as a non-stone individual to not make statements that could offend those that are stone and not generalize about stone sexuality.

[cinderella]

Yes, it does sound like I'm generalizing, and perhaps I am. I apologize for that, it was not my intention. The intention was not so much for 'generalizing', but to express *my* personal feelings and experiences, and the way *I* perceive them. My personal feelings are mine - I am not trying to speak for others. Perhaps I am coming across too adamantly strong and/or 'narrow' - but, it's the way I feel for *me*. It is neither right nor wrong, it is only right for me. I may be mistaken, but I believe the intention of this thread was to get feedback on our personal opinion of what we thought a 'stonefemme' to be.

I appreciate your thoughts and whatever you just don't care to do certainly is a boundary you need to have respected.

I feel like you are making some generalizations about lesbian sex and stereotyping us. I certainly don't have a predetermined and narrow interpretation of what lesians always do. I haven't stuck to one and only one way of enjoying sex through all my years of lesbianism. Sex is fluid and can evolve. Identifying as a butch woman has not changed this at all for me.

Absolutely, sexual boundaries need to be respected. Stereotyping segments of the entire queer spectrum based upon what you individually have experienced and putting it into negative language (that is how this feels to me) is troublesome. As troublesome as when I see someone stereotyping or making negative judgements of a stone person. I am very careful as a non-stone individual to not make statements that could offend those that are stone and not generalize about stone sexuality.

[Toughy]

I was involved in sexually 'reciprocal' relationships. And by 'reciprocal' I mean - you do me, I do you.

Femme gives butch a blow job, butch fucks femme with cock. Butch goes down on femme, femme gives butch a blow job. Both look like 'you do me, I do you' as far as I can tell.

To me, being 'stone' is not touching/feeling up a butch -

Huh? No wonder so many folks think 'stone' is not right with these kinds of statements. Every stone femme I know touches and feels up the stone butch they are with. Sex would be boring beyond belief if a stone femme just laid there and did not touch me.

I was a lousy 'lesbian' - according to what the 'ideal' sort of 'lesbian' was supposed to be - reciprocal 'everything'.

I want to know what an 'ideal' lesbian looks like and what they do in bed. I have been in bed with a bunch and I mean a bunch of lesbians. I have no idea what the 'ideal' 'lesbian' does. I have had plenty of sex with lesbians that was not reciprocal 'everything'. Oh yeah............I am a lesbian although I don't particularly like the word, but it fits.

I just wish this stereotyping would stop. Stereotyping stone sexuality and lesbian sexuality does not work well.

[lillith]

. I may be mistaken, but I believe the intention of this thread was to get feedback on our personal opinion of what we thought a 'stonefemme' to be.

Hey, cinderella. Thanks for your comments. You are getting feedback on your personal opinion. This thread was started because I find that a lot of focus tends to be on Stone Butch, and what that means; I wanted to discuss what it means to be a Stone Femme. Like a Stone Butch ID, I think that being a Stone Femme is just as open to personal interpretation. You are right when you say that there is no right or wrong answer; however, you go on to contradict yourself by saying your way is right. All I know is that my stone fluctuates and changes depending on my partner's needs, wants, and desires. I do have one hard no, and that is vaginal penetration (giving). I am open to the possibilities of everything else (and goodness there is a ton of everything else). Let me make this also very clear, my identity is not based on my partner's. It is important to me that I be proactive in my own needs, wants, and desires because I am a giver, a pleaser and want to share as much intimacy and sex with my love as much as possible. I am stone, but not made of stone.

[EmpressM]

For me being stonefemme embodies so much more than what I will or will not do in bed. Those boundaries are set based on the likes and dislikes of my partner as well as my own.

Personally, I find great power in my femininity and the traditional trappings of a woman. Stonefemme is more about my general behavior, the way I carry and present myself to the world, and the relationship dynamics I seek.

[asphaltcowboi]

being a stone butch i have usualy dated stone femme.. BC the understanding to me means stone..set in stone..non variable in certian ways of life, love,sex, housekeeping...ect...that are expressed up front. i have found (for me)stone to stone relationship seems to have a more compassion/respect for the non changable.
this is it take me or leave me.. just dont try to change me.

[cinderella]

Hey, lilith - I've hi-lighted in your paragraph what I'm addressing in my response. I don't believe I've contradicted myself - when I said it was 'right', I was saying that it was right 'for me', not that it is THE right way for everyone. If it came across that way, I apologize for the confusion. I never intend to speak for anyone but myself. I thought it was understood, that when someone expresses an opionion, it is their 'own' sentiment/belief - that goes across the board for any postings on threads. Anyway, that's the way I read posts - as someone's personal opionion.

Hey, cinderella. Thanks for your comments. You are getting feedback on your personal opinion. This thread was started because I find that a lot of focus tends to be on Stone Butch, and what that means; I wanted to discuss what it means to be a Stone Femme. Like a Stone Butch ID, I think that being a Stone Femme is just as open to personal interpretation. You are right when you say that there is no right or wrong answer; however, you go on to contradict yourself by saying your way is right. All I know is that my stone fluctuates and changes depending on my partner's needs, wants, and desires. I do have one hard no, and that is vaginal penetration (giving). I am open to the possibilities of everything else (and goodness there is a ton of everything else). Let me make this also very clear, my identity is not based on my partner's. It is important to me that I be proactive in my own needs, wants, and desires because I am a giver, a pleaser and want to share as much intimacy and sex with my love as much as possible. I am stone, but not made of stone.

[Soft*Silver]

I have come to realize I am the femme version of a stone butch. I dont think there is a label for this. lol.

I have no desire for my partner to give to me unless I dictate how and when. And I have my own boundaries, just like a stone butch would. I am by no means frigid. I am hot as hell in bed and my submissive can tell you that. I use to call myself an aggressive femme but that was when i was trying to mold myself into the role of submissive femme. It SO didnt work for me. Now that I am into FemDom and pack and take the Dominant role, I think and act more like a Stone Butch, but am absolutely Femme...

[ScandalAndy]

I have come to realize I am the femme version of a stone butch. I dont think there is a label for this. lol.

I have no desire for my partner to give to me unless I dictate how and when. And I have my own boundaries, just like a stone butch would. I am by no means frigid. I am hot as hell in bed and my submissive can tell you that. I use to call myself an aggressive femme but that was when i was trying to mold myself into the role of submissive femme. It SO didnt work for me. Now that I am into FemDom and pack and take the Dominant role, I think and act more like a Stone Butch, but am absolutely Femme...



I love this. The way you live and describe yourself really makes me think outside the box. I like how your unique traits fit you, and you're really okay with the fact that there is no label. :)

[CherylNYC]

I have come to realize I am the femme version of a stone butch. I dont think there is a label for this. lol.

I have no desire for my partner to give to me unless I dictate how and when. And I have my own boundaries, just like a stone butch would. I am by no means frigid. I am hot as hell in bed and my submissive can tell you that. I use to call myself an aggressive femme but that was when i was trying to mold myself into the role of submissive femme. It SO didnt work for me. Now that I am into FemDom and pack and take the Dominant role, I think and act more like a Stone Butch, but am absolutely Femme...

There is indeed a label for you. It's called Stone Femme. If you are a stone sexual top and you are femme, you are a Stone Femme. Yes, this is a maddening double meaning, and it really sucks.

[DamselFly]

i am a queerstonefemme. i'll go term by term:
First of all, i use lowercase to refer to myself. i learned to do so from an old-school forum that used lowercase to refer to bottoms/submissives (which i am) and Uppercase to refer to /Tops/Dominants. This usage was considered common courtesy, and i still follow it.
i use the term "queer" b/c i am not conventionally heterosexual nor conventionally lesbian. i do not desire biomales but neither do i desire feminine women. indeed, those who have been my partners in the past have usually ID as Butch (not female) or have been Transgendered.
i use the term "stone" b/c i am most comfortable with the Stone Butch/stone femme dynamic. This is not to say that i am a passive partner in any sense. i participate fully in the relationship in all respects, but my participation is both different from and highly respectful of the boundaries of my partner.
i use the term "femme" b/c i am feminine as opposed to Butch. i value my femininity and those who help me do so, both in terms of other femmes as well as Butches. Being femme does NOT make me inferior nor superior to Butches; rather i am their equal complement.
so i am a "queerstonefemme." i also use "QueerStoneFemme" just b/c it is easier to read.
:blueheels:
damselfly

[ScandalAndy]

There is indeed a label for you. It's called Stone Femme. If you are a stone sexual top and you are femme, you are a Stone Femme. Yes, this is a maddening double meaning, and it really sucks.

I hesitate to do this because I think the backlash is going to be horrendous, but:

Stone Femme is your label for her, not her own. It's dangerous to classify others based on our personal interpretations of what a label means.

[Toughy]

I have come to realize I am the femme version of a stone butch. I dont think there is a label for this. lol.

I have no desire for my partner to give to me unless I dictate how and when. And I have my own boundaries, just like a stone butch would. I am by no means frigid. I am hot as hell in bed and my submissive can tell you that. I use to call myself an aggressive femme but that was when i was trying to mold myself into the role of submissive femme. It SO didnt work for me. Now that I am into FemDom and pack and take the Dominant role, I think and act more like a Stone Butch, but am absolutely Femme...

I just want to tell you that there are other StoneFemme Top/Domme in this world.....if you mean that you don't allow vaginal penetration and pack. The ones that I know call themselves StoneFemme Top/Domme. They are also pretty cock identified.

If you are just talking being a Femme Domme/Top who packs, is dominant, is (or not) cock id'd, and allows vaginal penetration, oral sex, etc, well you are not alone in that respect either..

[CherylNYC]

I hesitate to do this because I think the backlash is going to be horrendous, but:

Stone Femme is your label for her, not her own. It's dangerous to classify others based on our personal interpretations of what a label means.

Well, I certainly hope there's no backlash for saying something so reasonable. You're right that I should have asked more questions or explained the terms better as Toughy did in the above post.

I'm too quick to talk about this because I'm so dissatisfied with the terms we use.

[Sweet_Amor_Taino]

I am stone, but not made of stone.
__________________

I am stone! and I do not like to be penetrated ever!!! But I do enjoy the hands of my femme caressing me as long as its done in a non feminine manner. I like to know that she loves me and loves how I am making her feel and her touch
speaks loudly about what she is feeling.

Touch me baby, show your daddy how he makes you feel:superman:

[*Anya*]

I am stone, but not made of stone.
__________________

I am stone! and I do not like to be penetrated ever!!! But I do enjoy the hands of my femme caressing me as long as its done in a non feminine manner. I like to know that she loves me and loves how I am making her feel and her touch
speaks loudly about what she is feeling.

Touch me baby, show your daddy how he makes you feel:superman:
Oh lord, heart be still!

[lillith]

Thank you Sweet_Amor_Taino.

Ok, I have a generalized question: Do you think the dating pool is limited because you ID as a Stone Femme (in whatever capacity that means to you)?

[CherylNYC]

Thank you Sweet_Amor_Taino.

Ok, I have a generalized question: Do you think the dating pool is limited because you ID as a Stone Femme (in whatever capacity that means to you)?

Oh, yes. Without doubt, yes. My dating pool has gotten very small, indeed. What's more, I face every possible romantic encounter with trepidation because I know that I'll have to explain myself to someone who may turn out to think that there's something terribly wrong with me. If I were more traditionally femme, my stonefemme boundaries might not seem quite so surprising to an interested butch.

I've been told that my dating pool would enlarge considerably if I were into trans guys, but I'm not.

[ScandalAndy]

Well, I certainly hope there's no backlash for saying something so reasonable. You're right that I should have asked more questions or explained the terms better as Toughy did in the above post.

I'm too quick to talk about this because I'm so dissatisfied with the terms we use.

I agree wholeheartedly with your dissatisfaction and appreciate your feedback on the matter. I was just having the "self identification" discussion with a friend the other night and we were expressing our displeasure that it needs to be done at all, but then how can we represent ourselves while avoiding being classified by the labels others apply to us?

Thank you for being so honest and facing your fears about talking to your partners. I feel like people who are brave like that should be thanked more often. In my mind, discussing intimacy boundaries is often like coming out, over and over again. My bitter side is also saying that there aren't enough people who address things like comfort, boundaries, and pleasure.

[atomiczombie]

Oh, yes. Without doubt, yes. My dating pool has gotten very small, indeed. What's more, I face every possible romantic encounter with trepidation because I know that I'll have to explain myself to someone who may turn out to think that there's something terribly wrong with me. If I were more traditionally femme, my stonefemme boundaries might not seem quite so surprising to an interested butch.

I've been told that my dating pool would enlarge considerably if I were into trans guys, but I'm not.

If you think your dating pool is small, you should see mine. It's more of a puddle, than a pool. lol

[cuddlyfemme]

Oh, yes. Without doubt, yes. My dating pool has gotten very small, indeed. What's more, I face every possible romantic encounter with trepidation because I know that I'll have to explain myself to someone who may turn out to think that there's something terribly wrong with me. If I were more traditionally femme, my stonefemme boundaries might not seem quite so surprising to an interested butch.

I've been told that my dating pool would enlarge considerably if I were into trans guys, but I'm not.

I've been told the exact same thing regarding how my dating pool would enlarge regarding Trans guys

[*Anya*]

I've been told the exact same thing regarding how my dating pool would enlarge regarding Trans guys


My own personal pool is pretty big. The water feels lovely & quite warm.

My criteria pretty much is sexual attraction-do I feel those butterflies? Is my heart pounding? If yes, that is the first step. Butch? Yes! TG? OK-fine with me-yes! Daddy? OK, I am interested-tell me more about the dynamic please! Yes! Stone butch? OK, lived as a stone femme in love for a long time!

I am not talking about all those other values that are so important-I am strictly talking about the initial attraction that tells one: yes, I would love to go out with you!

The pool shrinks a great deal when you are older. Not my choice, it is just a
reality. I am not limiting it by my identity as a femme.

I am dipping my toe in the pool, but I have not jumped and no one has pulled me in the pool (or pushed me in either...).

Regardless of how big or small our dating pool is, don't we at least need to
take that chance? As long as my own personal boundaries are respected, since age is now a factor in my dating pool; I personally need to be open to all
possibilities (which I may not have considered in my 20's).

Cannonball coming! Splash!

[ScandalAndy]

My own personal pool is pretty big. The water feels lovely & quite warm.

My criteria pretty much is sexual attraction-do I feel those butterflies? Is my heart pounding? If yes, that is the first step. Butch? Yes! TG? OK-fine with me-yes! Daddy? OK, I am interested-tell me more about the dynamic please! Yes! Stone butch? OK, lived as a stone femme in love for a long time!

I am not talking about all those other values that are so important-I am strictly talking about the initial attraction that tells one: yes, I would love to go out with you!

The pool shrinks a great deal when you are older. Not my choice, it is just a
reality. I am not limiting it by my identity as a femme.

I am dipping my toe in the pool, but I have not jumped and no one has pulled me in the pool (or pushed me in either...).

Regardless of how big or small our dating pool is, don't we at least need to
take that chance? As long as my own personal boundaries are respected, since age is now a factor in my dating pool; I personally need to be open to all
possibilities (which I may not have considered in my 20's).

Cannonball coming! Splash!




I agree, the size of the pool is getting smaller with age. This saddens me!

[Soft*Silver]

I was away a few days so I couldnt respond. I am back.

I dont think the label Stone Femme applies to me. I am not a traditionalist anylonger.

And Toughy, even if I wasnt a FemDom, I would be someone who packs. And yes, likes penetration as well but when i say. I prefer my partner to be quite submissive. But engaged.

My dating pool is quite large. I date who I am attracted to. I dont have preconceived barriers anymore. I never thought I would fucka a femme but yes, I would. However, the pool of people who would date me becme much smaller when mine became much larger. Not too many butches want a packing femme. Some people back away from me as a friend, let alone as a date or lover, because I am interested in and involved with MtFs. Shrug. Its ok. I barely have enough time for who I am involved with, let alone worry who wont be involved with me anylonger.

:canoworms:

[steel_magnolia]

First, I am brand new to the site. I am so glad to have found this thread! I just read through the entire thing, and thought I would post all my thoughts on different aspects that came up at once. I apologize in advance for the length (and the possible TMI!).

1) What does "stone femme" mean in general?

I think we really need to deconstruct this term. For me, "stone" refers to a type of sexual expression - sex with very clear boundaries around touch. "Butch" and "femme" add more clarity to the stone part - do my boundaries revolve around what is done to me or what I do to others? However, "butch" and "femme" also refer to someone's particular flavor of gender presentation, and perhaps even the flavor of gender presentation they are attracted to.

And there's the disconnect, the ambiguity of the term. "Stone" is well understood. It's the loaded "butch" or "femme" used to modify it that's a problem, because those words have so many layered meanings. Maybe we should come up with another way to modify the word "stone" to refer solely to boundaries, and let "butch" and "femme" refer strictly to gender ID? That might make things easier for stone femmes who don't want to be penetrated. And would also create a safe place for butches who are cool with receiving penetration but not necessarily penetrating their partner (with all this variety I'm sure there are some of those too.) Something to think about...

2) What does "stone femme" mean to me?

Sexually I'm stone femme because I'm strictly a "catcher" when it comes to sex. I have a high sex drive and I am VERY responsive, but actively going beyond cuddling and petting is just not me. Mouth-to-mouth kissing is often a struggle, much less any sort of penetration on my partner. I tried for years to force myself to "reciprocate" and felt awful afterwards, like I had allowed myself to be violated. This led to all kinds of feelings of guilt, inadequacy, judgment from my partners, worries over being frigid, a reluctance to get involved in any relationship at all...

It was only when someone pointed out that I was a stone femme - and reassured me that being a stone femme was totally ok - that I was able to actually accept and enjoy my sexuality. Now I revel in the idea that my responsiveness works for my partner, that I can care for them in ways that compliment without mimicking the ways they care for me. It frees me to explore my sexuality, cuddle/pet/massage my partner, and do all the sharing I love to do in relationships without fear, guilt, or doubt.

My also being a femme gender-wise just makes the term all-around more comfortable for me.

2) Are you stone femme because you date stone butches, or is it something innate? Does it change according to your partner?

My being stone femme has absolutely nothing to do with my partners and everything to do with me. I have my boundaries regardless of who I'm with. However, I exclusively go for masculine gender presentations regardless of the physical plumbing - butches, stone butches, trans, even a few bioguys. Since I'm stone relationships tend to work better if my partner of whatever ID is stone too, and stone butches and transmen seem to be the majority of the "masculine" and "stone" crowd.

3) Is the dating pool limited because I ID as a stone femme?

Oh, yes. I prefer to save the emotional energy of a relationship for those who can work with my methods of sexual expression - and everyone else seems to do the same. However, when I do date someone who is cool with my being stone there is this mutually created non-judgmental space that is incredibly comfortable and freeing. Even if it doesn't work out romantically I've never not gained a friendship out of it.

And that is PLENTY of babble on the topic. Thanks for posting something so interesting!

[Gemme]

I love this description. Thank you, again, for being so patient and thorough with your answers (I will not run away with the innuendo that could so easily be put into that sentence). I am no stranger to the terms we are using, I'm just playing stupid, in a sense, so that I may understand how we are all using them in relation to ourselves.

You're quite right, everyone's interpretation of the words is different, so how can I share what it means to me in the context of conversation? For now I'm just going to keep asking questions so I can be sure of exactly what the poster is intending to convey. :)

Also, I'm a fan of the "pleasure balls" analogy.

Well, when I want to share what something means to me, I start by typing it out. After some editing and font adjusting, I submit it.

*grin*

It is hard to let go of our inner critc, isn't it? Just know that your audience is rooting for you, not against you, and most if not all know at least some of what you are going through and have gone through.

:stillheart:

Actually, every person should respect every other person's sexual/emotional boundaries. Everyone has boundaries. Those boundaries can change depending on who is in the bed or not change.

For many/most? Stone Butch is about no vaginal penetration (and perhaps no anal penetration) and breasts are not breasts, but are a chest. I think it's a mixed bag concerning blow jobs and the 'little cock' (the clit), but it is in the mind set that it's a blow job not sucking a clit. I have never known a Stone Butch (or Stone Femme Top) who turned down a blow job on the 'big cock'.

Stone Femmes (who are bottoms) generally balk at wearing a cock or vaginally penetrating any Butch with their fingers. Anal is a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag about blow jobs on the little cock, but definitely a go for the big cock. Touching nipples on the chest is also a mixed bag, but I have never met a stone femme who would cup a breast in their hand to suck the nipple. It's a different kind of touch for nipples on a chest.

I am completely Stone big cock identified in kink space. In non-kink space, my sexual boundaries are entirely dependent on the femme in my (her) bed and the energy between us.

-----------------
'dash' is a reference to another butch/femme website that many many many of us frequented before this big ass planet was created....there is a dash (-) in the name.

Thank you for bringing up chest versus breast/s. That is a very important line drawn in probably nearly all Stone relationships, I would say.

I've read the paragraph regarding Stone Femmes a couple of times and it just doesn't sit right with me. I know what you're saying, so it must be my own scope reading it askew.

Just to throw it out there, and possibly to confuse others more, Stone Femmes are usually but not always bottoms. As Cheryl has said earlier, there's a lot of confusion between stonefemme and Stone Femmes and those of us who are, in the initial design of things, stonefemmes but like the look of Stone Femme better add to the confusion. That would be me. I'm not Stone in that I don't like and/or want penetration or certain touch. I partner with those who do identify with those boundaries. Seeing stonefemme in lower case and squished together makes the grammar snob in me all :twitch: and that just can't happen, so I capitalize it and spread it out.

Softness has had a wonderful metamorphosis since I've first known her and I love where she is now. I would have also said that she was a Stone Femme or Stone Femme Top, but it certainly does help to add Top or Domme or both, if it feels appropriate.

In the end, it doesn't matter what label others put on you. I think the forced labelization of this world is what has made a lot of folks reject labels as a whole. They see restrictions in themselves and their loved ones. I, being anal retentive 'n chit, see order and a classification system that tells what group this person is in and this one. Order makes me happy, so maybe I should go with the label of Queer Stone Anal Femme Girl. Imagine the dialogue THAT would create. :)

I have come to realize I am the femme version of a stone butch. I dont think there is a label for this. lol.

I have no desire for my partner to give to me unless I dictate how and when. And I have my own boundaries, just like a stone butch would. I am by no means frigid. I am hot as hell in bed and my submissive can tell you that. I use to call myself an aggressive femme but that was when i was trying to mold myself into the role of submissive femme. It SO didnt work for me. Now that I am into FemDom and pack and take the Dominant role, I think and act more like a Stone Butch, but am absolutely Femme...

If you want to call yourself a FemDomme or Stone Femme Top or a pretty, pretty Tulip with thorns, that's your right, and those who care about you and respect you will do their best to remember that.

[Gemme]

I hesitate to do this because I think the backlash is going to be horrendous, but:

Stone Femme is your label for her, not her own. It's dangerous to classify others based on our personal interpretations of what a label means.

This is true.

This just goes to show what a difference adding "I think you might be" or "From my experience, you are" onto a sentence can make.

Thank you Sweet_Amor_Taino.

Ok, I have a generalized question: Do you think the dating pool is limited because you ID as a Stone Femme (in whatever capacity that means to you)?

I do, but that's not necessarily a bad thing sometimes. It means there's less to wade through. If I were single, I could pop my preferences into an online filter and click and then have a handful of folks to look at and think about rather than pages and pages of potential partners. It's less time consuming!

Another thing to keep in mind is that it only takes one (unless you are poly!), so it doesn't matter how big the pool or pond or puddle is if that person is in it.

I was away a few days so I couldnt respond. I am back.

I dont think the label Stone Femme applies to me. I am not a traditionalist anylonger.

And Toughy, even if I wasnt a FemDom, I would be someone who packs. And yes, likes penetration as well but when i say. I prefer my partner to be quite submissive. But engaged.

My dating pool is quite large. I date who I am attracted to. I dont have preconceived barriers anymore. I never thought I would fucka a femme but yes, I would. However, the pool of people who would date me becme much smaller when mine became much larger. Not too many butches want a packing femme. Some people back away from me as a friend, let alone as a date or lover, because I am interested in and involved with MtFs. Shrug. Its ok. I barely have enough time for who I am involved with, let alone worry who wont be involved with me anylonger.

:canoworms:

Good for you! I will say, however, that not all Stone Femmes (or stonefemmes) are traditional. Some of us are OFOS, but some of us are rather modern and have shaped our identities to fit our preferences and not the other way around.

[*Anya*]

Not only am I learning about the diversity amongst our femme community but am learning more about myself and my own needs/desires and core self!

Hugs to all if you:)

[*Anya*]

Hate spell-check on my phone! To all of you not "if you"!

[ScandalAndy]

Gemme, I have the biggest crush on your brain right now. I'm in awe of your ability to soothe ruffled feathers, find commonality with everyone, and eloquently state your points in a manner that is respectful to everyone involved.

I wanna be Gemme when I grow up!! :)

[Toughy]

Gemme I think if you look in a different post I talked about StoneFemme's who are Tops.........forgive me for forgetting my appropriate upper and lower case designations......laughin...

I think we are in agreement. stone femme bottom, Stone Femme Top. I'm very familiar with the Top version....yummy when that itch needs scratched...:toypony: I find the bottom version to be really yummy also.

(if I am making no sense or have misread you...........I just got in from camping for a week at Big Sur. I am still hearing the Big Sur river and the ocean waves.....)

[Soft*Silver]

chuckling...ok so i am a Stone Femme Top. And I do very well in scratching itches..just sayin'..... :sunglass:

[Soft*Silver]

ooooooooooo totally unrelated but nah...related....I have a pair of assless pink chaps now!

[Gemme]

Gemme, I have the biggest crush on your brain right now. I'm in awe of your ability to soothe ruffled feathers, find commonality with everyone, and eloquently state your points in a manner that is respectful to everyone involved.

I wanna be Gemme when I grow up!! :)

Awww, thank you! This is very sweet of you to say!

But forget about the being Gemme when you grow up....the world wouldn't be able to handle two of us in existence!

:giggle:

Gemme I think if you look in a different post I talked about StoneFemme's who are Tops.........forgive me for forgetting my appropriate upper and lower case designations......laughin...

I think we are in agreement. stone femme bottom, Stone Femme Top. I'm very familiar with the Top version....yummy when that itch needs scratched...:toypony: I find the bottom version to be really yummy also.

(if I am making no sense or have misread you...........I just got in from camping for a week at Big Sur. I am still hearing the Big Sur river and the ocean waves.....)

No worries, Toughy. I *knew* what you were saying but I *read* it differently. So, yes, I agree that we're basically saying the same thing. I just had a clarification itch that needed to be scratched.

*grin*

Congrats on your trip! I would love to get away from things for a week.

[Red Dirt Girl]

Yes, complete. I felt so much freedom and relief and joy the day I was able to stop thinking of myself as a "bad lesbian" and start knowing myself as a stone femme.
I'm a stone femme and am very proud of it. I never realized that I was a Stone Femme untill I was in a relationship with a Stone Butch. When I found out what a Stone Butch was and what a Stone Femme was, I suddenly felt comlete. It seems to be hard to find a single Stone Butch, but I keep hoping that one will come along

[smouldering]

This has been a very interesting thread and i've enjoyed reading it greatly. :)

I used to identify as a stone femme when i first came onto the scene, but after learning more about myself and those that i am attracted to, honestly i would have to say i am more of a "fluid" femme. I have dated both Stone and not and never felt that i was missing something if that makes sense? when i am in love with someone and with them, it all seems to fall into place, i want them to feel good and feel confident in our relationship and in their body, if my partner is comfortable with me touching their nipples or going down on them then ok, however if they are not comfortable with it and prefer that i touch them anywhere else but in certain places, then i am fine with that too, its all about what works for us in our dynamic. I find that it is hard to explain really but I try lol.. all in all I am just me and find that there are several little niches i can find at least something that relates to me :)

[Martina]

i have had all kinds of sexual relationships with women. i am currently a bottom/sub and am sexually available to my Dominants. My limits are few.

However, one of the other kinds of sexual relationships i have had frequently over the years is as a stone sexual Top. i like to fuck girls. If i meet someone and they are not a Top and we have sexual chemistry that we want to act on, i fuck them. They do not fuck me. These are usually femmes. i am not attracted very often to butch bottoms. Or if i am, they are switches and not bottoming to me.

i like fucking girls A LOT. Every once in a while one will BEG to fuck me, and i will do it. It's fine. It's not like i am squicked. It can even be fun. But it's not what i am in it for with them.

i like these relationships a lot. They feed me. i have in a number of cases never even gotten naked in this kind of relationship. i really like these girls. i like the dynamic.

i am clearly NOT a stone femme Top, but i do have those boundaries in certain kinds of connections. They feel right. And the girls like it.

[jac]

meaning to read every post before I commented - but, being the ol' crotechy bitch that I am, I didn't have the patience nor motivation - I am so jaded, I believe I've heard it all before.

Let me back up a bit...for years, I was a Lesbian - I didn't know any better, so that's what I always called myself. I was involved in sexually 'reciprocal' relationships. And by 'reciprocal' I mean - you do me, I do you. Well, that never sat well with me, and I'll tell you why. I was a lousy 'lesbian' - according to what the 'ideal' sort of 'lesbian' was supposed to be - reciprocal 'everything'. Well, I just couldn't go there. I was accused of being 'straight' because I - too put it bluntly - didn't enjoy/like going down on a woman - nor a man, for that mattter (I was 'straight' for the first 20 years of my life). I just did not like it, could not stomach it, didn't want to, etc. - I think you get the picture.

To me, being 'stone' is not touching/feeling up a butch - not that I would want to - I don't. Never mind, 'going down'! That to me - and I am only speaking for myself - is unspeakable! It is nothing I would ever want to do. So, anyone I partner with, would have to be stone in that way.

Ok, enough said about my preferences & personal interpretation of 'stone femme'...carry on.



When I think of a stone femme, I think of the individual you are portraying here. The assured confident woman that knows for sure and certain that she does not want to have any part with feminizing her stone butch partner. Ok allow me to kind of explain where my mind is going with this... As I mentioned in the stone butch thread, I had partners months and years later in our relationship ask for the unaskable... To me, and speaking strictly for myself, it makes me a bit uneasy and standoffish to hear a femme say that she is "open to anything." It kind of feels like there is room for options, but for me I am certain that there is absolutely, positively no options. I guess it's that trust thing and my past experiences that have me feeling like this. I just want to know that the femme I partner with is 100% certain. There is someone for everyone and just because I am strict with how I expect things to be does not mean that there are not different levels to the stone butch continuum. I am just saying that I am all the way to the far right on that continuum... like... back against the wall, no more space for further options, far right. I hope this does not offend anyone and how they perceive themselves to be... This is my own personal feeling about the stone butch that I am. And thank you for this thread and all your words on the topic... I am thoroughly enjoying it!! :) :koolaid:

[Kätzchen]

I made a post about 2 years ago on another forum board, subjectively, about my idea of who I think I am. At the time, I only owned a part of my identity: Being Stone and Femme (two separate identities, the way I see it for me). It’s only been lately that I have been willing to publicly own my Alpha side. I am a Stone Alpha Femme: Three complete identities on their own yet meld oh so beautifully inside the crucible of me.

I have edited my previous post for clarity so that I can marry another aspect of my identity, my Alpha side. My offering is a revision of ‘my thesis;’ a description of my own personal evolution.

I begin my revision by invoking what Alpha looks like on me (it’s my favorite dress but I only let my Alpha side out on special occasion) through filters of two separate lenses: Stone and Femme, both of which are tempered and seasoned by the Alpha in me.

I first came into my Queer Femme identity fairly late in life. In the beginning, back when I first knew that I was not of a heterosexual orientation, the only term I knew about that seemed to describe me was "Lesbian." That term didn't really work much for me over the years because as I grew in my identity, I knew that something was not entirely right for me. I am the female of the species. I own other gendered constructs as well, but I was about 43 when I came into my brand of Femme. What being Femme translates into for me is a very Queer process and feeling. I was about 47 when spending a considerable amount of time reading forums discussions labeled Stone Femme, which helped me to explore what being Stone might mean to me and by the time I was 49, I came to see that I have more of a Stone side than I cared to admit to and I'm not saying that my feeling that I am Stone, in my own ways, is a bad thing. It's a good thing for me because of my long journey in finding out exactly what works for me as a Queer identifying Femme.

Owning Stone identity on the Femme spectrum is connected to what I prefer sexually. My preference is that I am the one who receives sexually initiated contact. I cannot experience acts of sexuality if it is expected that I would be the person to initiate in the way that a queer identifying Stone counterpart would. I am a willing Stone Femme bottom: This is how I fully submit within a sensual/sexual experience. The way my sexual counterpart penetrates me (intellectually, emotionally, viscerally, et al) gives me the greatest pleasure and causes me to have the most fulfilling encounter possible. I have a very deep need to be "filled" in ways that only a Stone identifying partner could give to me. It sends me into total orbit, allowing myself to experience sex this way, the only way I can fully experience our exchange of energy. However, as much as I can be a Stone Femme bottom, my sexual repertoire is a kaleidescope refracting prismatically all the possiblities of sexual pleasure yet discovered or well known.

However, other aspects of my personal makeup take on and exhibit other Stone qualities (boundaries, for example). To a certain degree, I am hyper-private about myself: Lots of people might say that they feel that they experience issues of privacy in all sorts of ways. But when I use the term private, I am saying that I enforce what the term private (or privacy) can mean in hyper-like ways. Like when it comes to disclosing aspects of my life or what preferences I have, as it pertains to particular sexual acts or acts of sensuality (in face-to-face encounters or in text). I trend toward dressing my expression with creative disclosureso that my ideas, or what I have to say, makes its appearance in subversive ways. I have to be in a certain frame of mind and have an established bond of trust in order to be able to even talk about things that are entirely very personal or might be connected to issues of past abuse.

My experiential views of abuse does inform my definition of Alpha. As well, my parents and family life on a rural dairy farm groomed my Alpha traits in peculiar ways. Similar to scientific study on alpha members of a dog pack, my place and role in my family sibling arrangement (second eldest, eldest female) took on the scope of alpha status because my parents innately recognized me as being their ‘brightest star’: Their ‘atom’ worth nurturing in their cosmic, organic, molecular arrangement (the constellation of us as siblings). Whether I wanted to comply or not, I was charged with the care of my siblings and entrusted with complicated decision making processes that only grown adults might take on willingly. It was, and still is, an “it is what it is” kind of thing. I took care of things; made sure our work got done, and delegated tasks and managed timelines so steep in learning skills that I swear my brain has suffered every step of the way since time first began for me! But every aspect of family life (the good, bad or downright ugly) prepared me for raising my sons and managing whatever life brings to me (past, present and future). It seems to me that any kind of suffering I endure drives the Alpha in me.

I’ve been in the online butch-femme community for almost nine years now and it’s taken me a lifetime (it would seem) to bloom: Presently, the dressing room fragrance of my evolutionary process smells like the essence of Stone Alpha Femme (Dragons Blood- my essential oil perfume fits me so perfectly).

[spritzerJ]

When I think of a stone femme, I think of the individual you are portraying here. The assured confident woman that knows for sure and certain that she does not want to have any part with feminizing her stone butch partner. Ok allow me to kind of explain where my mind is going with this... As I mentioned in the stone butch thread, I had partners months and years later in our relationship ask for the unaskable... To me, and speaking strictly for myself, it makes me a bit uneasy and standoffish to hear a femme say that she is "open to anything." It kind of feels like there is room for options, but for me I am certain that there is absolutely, positively no options. I guess it's that trust thing and my past experiences that have me feeling like this. I just want to know that the femme I partner with is 100% certain. There is someone for everyone and just because I am strict with how I expect things to be does not mean that there are not different levels to the stone butch continuum. I am just saying that I am all the way to the far right on that continuum... like... back against the wall, no more space for further options, far right. I hope this does not offend anyone and how they perceive themselves to be... This is my own personal feeling about the stone butch that I am. And thank you for this thread and all your words on the topic... I am thoroughly enjoying it!! :) :koolaid:

First....
Thank you all for sharing on this topic. It is a blessing to be allowed to explore understanding through your experiences and thoughts.

Next...
I choose to quote stone4play because it speaks to my fear/concern... How does one explore their changing notions of themselves and sexual expression without hurting, pushing, disrespecting others in the process? I deeply do not want to hurt others in my deepening and awakening. I know it is a risk... so I continue to read and hope conversations will lead to clarity while limiting risk.

Further more... My understanding of boundaries, what I desire, really desire, in an intimate relationship are emerging as I learn the words for what I feel. As my pain illuminates what I want to be by being in contrast to how I am being. I feel like I can breath a bit knowing "stonefemme" is something I can define and refine. I am thrilled to know that being the receiver is pleasure for another. I strongly desire to be, not just submissive, a person that creates a place for one to be and receive them and have my enjoyment be their pleasure, a shared pleasure.

:moonstars:

[jac]

First....
Thank you all for sharing on this topic. It is a blessing to be allowed to explore understanding through your experiences and thoughts.

Next...
I choose to quote stone4play because it speaks to my fear/concern... How does one explore their changing notions of themselves and sexual expression without hurting, pushing, disrespecting others in the process? I deeply do not want to hurt others in my deepening and awakening. I know it is a risk... so I continue to read and hope conversations will lead to clarity while limiting risk.

Further more... My understanding of boundaries, what I desire, really desire, in an intimate relationship are emerging as I learn the words for what I feel. As my pain illuminates what I want to be by being in contrast to how I am being. I feel like I can breath a bit knowing "stonefemme" is something I can define and refine. I am thrilled to know that being the receiver is pleasure for another. I strongly desire to be, not just submissive, a person that creates a place for one to be and receive them and have my enjoyment be their pleasure, a shared pleasure.

:moonstars:

Rereading my entry seems to give the impression that all I am after is an experienced stonefemme. Perhaps that is where I was in the moment of that entry but I have since come to realize that even I, as a stone butch, had to explore and experiment in order to know exactly what I was seeking and who I was. I liken it now unto an individual seeking a job... one cannot get a job if they do not have the experience, but they cannot get the experience if they do not have a job. I see now that yes, it is something that needs to be worked out (together) in order for both people to realize that they are stone compatible. Keeping an open mind, allows for an open heart, which in turn leaves the door open for all things possible... Thanks for your post Jenna :)

[SoNotHer]

" I know it is a risk... so I continue to read and hope conversations will lead to clarity while limiting risk."

Well said as is your response in toto and other responses here. Self determination is necessarily linked to the freedom to do so without the worry of offense of pushback. It's gratifying to see folks feel free enough and supported enough to ruminate on and forge ahead with their identities. I think you speak to that and the environment it must be nurtured in as well. Your final sentence is exquisite. Thank you for the post.



First....
Thank you all for sharing on this topic. It is a blessing to be allowed to explore understanding through your experiences and thoughts.

Next...
I choose to quote stone4play because it speaks to my fear/concern... How does one explore their changing notions of themselves and sexual expression without hurting, pushing, disrespecting others in the process? I deeply do not want to hurt others in my deepening and awakening. I know it is a risk... so I continue to read and hope conversations will lead to clarity while limiting risk.

Further more... My understanding of boundaries, what I desire, really desire, in an intimate relationship are emerging as I learn the words for what I feel. As my pain illuminates what I want to be by being in contrast to how I am being. I feel like I can breath a bit knowing "stonefemme" is something I can define and refine. I am thrilled to know that being the receiver is pleasure for another. I strongly desire to be, not just submissive, a person that creates a place for one to be and receive them and have my enjoyment be their pleasure, a shared pleasure.

:moonstars:

[spritzerJ]

SoNotHer you are very kind in your openness and complement. I will try to honor the environment here that nurtures us all.

This exploration, naming of what I want, who I am is very daunting. I haven't felt this nervous since the women's retreat where we stood naked in front of each other. And that was very exposing....

" I know it is a risk... so I continue to read and hope conversations will lead to clarity while limiting risk."

Well said as is your response in toto and other responses here. Self determination is necessarily linked to the freedom to do so without the worry of offense of pushback. It's gratifying to see folks feel free enough and supported enough to ruminate on and forge ahead with their identities. I think you speak to that and the environment it must be nurtured in as well. Your final sentence is exquisite. Thank you for the post.

[spritzerJ]

I am amazed by our (humans) capacity for growth. That when one is graced with an opportunity to see something a different way it becomes art. There is an art to our conversation about who we are and an art to how we choose to interact with each other.

I needed to read what you said, Stone4play, oh such a short time ago. It gives light to our connectedness in our explorations and need to not only be open but clear.

Rereading my entry seems to give the impression that all I am after is an experienced stonefemme. Perhaps that is where I was in the moment of that entry but I have since come to realize that even I, as a stone butch, had to explore and experiment in order to know exactly what I was seeking and who I was. I liken it now unto an individual seeking a job... one cannot get a job if they do not have the experience, but they cannot get the experience if they do not have a job. I see now that yes, it is something that needs to be worked out (together) in order for both people to realize that they are stone compatible. Keeping an open mind, allows for an open heart, which in turn leaves the door open for all things possible... Thanks for your post Jenna :)

[SweetJane]

As I posted in another thread, I have appreciated the freedom that an identity serves. When I came to the insight that I was a stone femme, it explained a lot and allowed me to accept all that I was and what I could give---without guilt. That's the big thing here.

Being stone sets boundaries. But in some circles where there is little understanding, it makes us selfish or cold in some way.

There is another connection in stone intimacy that we don't talk about. That "energy" that emerges between two stones is more than just lust. Sometimes it takes on a spiritual note because of the level of trust that is being offered. And if that couple explores areas that slip beyond vanilla, the trust and caring is magnified.

But finding that counterpart is a challenge. I am reluctant to mingle in the wider lesbian community in real time and lead with my heart because I do not want to become fond of someone, knowing I can't deliver what they want and need.

It is often a lonely road we stones walk, ever alert for that person who is our complement. But that is also what makes us who we are.

[aishah]

i relate to the term stone more emotionally rather than sexually. i have plenty of friends who are stone femmes (who have clear boundaries around touch during sex and but some also id as stone because of their emotional boundaries rather than their physical ones). my partner is a stone butch and again, although there is a big physical element for him, being stone is a big part of who he is emotionally.

i've always been very emotionally demonstrative and outgoing, as well as pretty comfortable with lots of different stuff sexually. i never thought that i would id as stone until i became a sex worker. but now i can definitely feel emotional walls as well as sometimes physical ones going up for me. this thread has been really helpful to read as this is something i'm struggling with right now (literally a lot in the last 24 hours, but also over the last year or so i think).

[boobookitty]

I was a little suprised to not see the terms, ice princess or ice queen. (I might have missed it) I have known a very feminine woman who could not tolerate being touched, but she was still very passionate. and very lovely and beautiful. She called herself an Ice Queen. Because men called her fridged. So, it was a way of reclaiming the intended insult as a compliment. She did not want to be touched, but she loved being watched.
(glassy eyed-stupid grin-good memory)

[SweetJane]

I think there are two kinds of stone femme in discussion here.

One is the stone femme who seeks out a stone butch and who respects hys desire not to be touched in intimate places not just because it is hys wish but it is because she has no desire to touch hym there. That is the kind of stone femme I am and most stone femmes are.

However there are other stone femmes who do not wish to be touched in certain areas. That is a wholly different orientation. Some of these stone femmes are tops.

[boobookitty]

... However there are other stone femmes who do not wish to be touched in certain areas. That is a wholly different orientation. Some of these stone femmes are tops.

Yes, this is the type of woman I learned to address as Ice Queen or Ice Princess, (different than a pillow queen/ pillow princess)


:bunchflowers:

[thedivahrrrself]

This is exactly why I don't ID as Stone Femme, though I only date Stone Butches/TG's. I call myself a Queer Femme because I only date those outside the gender binary.

I am with you, Jane, in the first variety of Stone Femme.

I think there are two kinds of stone femme in discussion here.

One is the stone femme who seeks out a stone butch and who respects hys desire not to be touched in intimate places not just because it is hys wish but it is because she has no desire to touch hym there. That is the kind of stone femme I am and most stone femmes are.

However there are other stone femmes who do not wish to be touched in certain areas. That is a wholly different orientation. Some of these stone femmes are tops.

[CherylNYC]

This is exactly why I don't ID as Stone Femme, though I only date Stone Butches/TG's. I call myself a Queer Femme because I only date those outside the gender binary.

I am with you, Jane, in the first variety of Stone Femme.

I'm a stonefemme in the first variety, too. Meaning, I have a strong boundary around touching or penetrating a partner's genitalia. BUT, I don't really ID as queer. I sometimes use that word to be inclusive and because it's easy, but it implies an opennes to other genders which I don't really have.

I'm a woman who partners with women, (very, very butch women, but women none the less), which makes me a lesbian. Now that 'lesbian' seems to be an embattled ID within b/f circles, I've become far more cranky about insisting upon using it.

[Breathless]

I was looking for a thread like this months ago, so happy it has been bumped.. :)

I identify as lesbian, however the truth be known I fit into the label given as stone femme, some what. For me the difference is, that I don't necessarily seek out a mate that is stone butch, I do seek a mate who is very masculine. As far as the bedroom goes, I hold great respect for the boundries that are given. It is not that I don't want to touch in intimate areas, it is more that I would never ever do something that would make a mate feel uncomfortable. Intimacy between two people should always be something of pleasure and fulfillment, love and most of all respect.

I often am uncomfortable announcing in given situations that I identify as lesbian, simply because of the negative opinions that seem to come from that. I myself have boundries that I am not comfortable with.. does that make me less of a lesbian?? I am not the definition, I am just a woman who is attracted to other bio born women, even if that is not who they are today.

[DapperButch]

Yes, this is the type of woman I learned to address as Ice Queen or Ice Princess, (different than a pillow queen/ pillow princess)


:bunchflowers:

boobookitty, is this what the women call themselves? It sounds like a derogatory word; I have never heard it before.

I'm a stonefemme in the first variety, too. Meaning, I have a strong boundary around touching or penetrating a partner's genitalia. BUT, I don't really ID as queer. I sometimes use that word to be inclusive and because it's easy, but it implies an opennes to other genders which I don't really have.

I'm a woman who partners with women, (very, very butch women, but women none the less), which makes me a lesbian. Now that 'lesbian' seems to be an embattled ID within b/f circles, I've become far more cranky about insisting upon using it.

For what it is worth, Cheryl, I have never regarded this being an automatic thing and had no idea that others thought this.

[CherylNYC]

boobookitty, is this what the women call themselves? It sounds like a derogatory word; I have never heard it before.



For what it is worth, Cheryl, I have never regarded this being an automatic thing and had no idea that others thought this.

I think 'queer' has been embraced by many young people because it's non gender specific, and in some circles claiming a gender has become, well, uncool. (I also think it's attractive partly because it presents an easy solution to the awkward linguistics of LGBTI alphabet soup, but that's not really relevant to this post.) In my experience, the non-gendered word, 'queer', does invite the assumption that the femme who IDs as such would be open to a relationship with males, (trans men or male IDed people). I am not interested in any kind of male. I'm strictly interested in butch women, so I think using queer would be disingenuous for me.

It's been my experience lately that many of the people who ID as queer, do so as a f**k u and your gender, in-yer-face, kind of political statement. Believe it or not, some straight people have even started to call themselves queer. I think, though I can't speak for all of them, that some may do so because they think they're being supportive. Kind of like, "I'm Spartacus". Of course, I find it as offensive as white people calling themselves POCs in a misguided attempt to create solidarity. There are also straight people within the BDSM community who call themselves queer because they think 'queer' should encompass all sexual minorities. Don't get me wrong- I don't think either practice is AT ALL widespread! I sometimes travel in circles that encompass extreme ends of the sexual minority spectrum. Those are the circles within which I've had a few very surprising conversations with people who don't use 'queer' in ways I can relate to.

Regardless of how other people use 'queer', it's not an accurate descriptor for me.

[DapperButch]

Cheryl, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that you thought most viewed stone femmes as being open to dating people other than women identified females. I now understand you were speaking of the descriptor queer.

[Gemme]

boobookitty, is this what the women call themselves? It sounds like a derogatory word; I have never heard it before.


For many, it is. Pillow princess, pillow queen, ice princess....et cetera.

I know that waaaaay before I figured out I was a Stone Femme, I was told that I was a pillow princess and it wasn't a term of affection. It came hand in hand with the terms 'selfish' and 'defective'.

[boobookitty]

boobookitty, is this what the women call themselves? It sounds like a derogatory word; I have never heard it before.

YES! that was how she disscribed herself, with great pride and self confidence.
It was at first an insult from a man, whom she had told she was not interested.
Her manner of dress and expression is very feminie and sexually confident. Frankly she liked the effect she had on men (and women) ... Yet, there was to be no touching her... just watching.

I know that using the word, "queen" can be used/taken as an insult, in gay culture has a suggestion of maleness, (because dragqueen is so well known) ... and I will be honest, I adored my 'pillow princess' until she asked to let her husband join us, ...ah, NO.

Since than I have at times refered to her as a 'pillow queen' ... when I was miffed at her.

When I think Ice Princess, I think of all the most beautiful art, lovely to see and impossible to touch or possess. VERY much a compliment!

came back to add: think of the most beautiul female form you can imagine, sculpted in ice (or glass) ... but 'ice' suggest to me you can't keep her... to touch her is to loose her... I don't know but I suspect most pass as straight ...(romanic sigh)

[sleeplessdancer]

Actually, every person should respect every other person's sexual/emotional boundaries. Everyone has boundaries. Those boundaries can change depending on who is in the bed or not change.

For many/most? Stone Butch is about no vaginal penetration (and perhaps no anal penetration) and breasts are not breasts, but are a chest. I think it's a mixed bag concerning blow jobs and the 'little cock' (the clit), but it is in the mind set that it's a blow job not sucking a clit. I have never known a Stone Butch (or Stone Femme Top) who turned down a blow job on the 'big cock'.

Stone Femmes (who are bottoms) generally balk at wearing a cock or vaginally penetrating any Butch with their fingers. Anal is a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag about blow jobs on the little cock, but definitely a go for the big cock. Touching nipples on the chest is also a mixed bag, but I have never met a stone femme who would cup a breast in their hand to suck the nipple. It's a different kind of touch for nipples on a chest.

I am completely Stone big cock identified in kink space. In non-kink space, my sexual boundaries are entirely dependent on the femme in my (her) bed and the energy between us.

-----------------
'dash' is a reference to another butch/femme website that many many many of us frequented before this big ass planet was created....there is a dash (-) in the name.

Thanks so much for laying it out like you did. This makes it clear that I'm not a stone femme, but could be from time to time.

[StoneOne]

Love to all the Stone Femmes out there

[spritzerJ]

I borrowed this quote from the house of stone thread. I brought it here because this thread has a ? mark and I am thinking that is where this wondering goes.



*2. A stone femme is a person who is feminine in thoughts and action, whose personal style is feminine, whose only partner is a stone butch, whose sexual style accepts the sexual boundaries and limitations of any stonebutch with grace and understanding, who never pushes the limits and boundaries of any stone butch and who loves butchcock and the masculinity of stone butches it represents.



So life, a might wind, joyous tripping has carried me far and these days I find myself looking at the definition above for stone femme or ones nearly worded as that and wonder. And I wonder more than I have since I first came out. This is good.

So I get the a person who is "feminine in thoughts and actions" part. That fits. I am more casual in my girly ways. Developing my particularities ;)

And the part that says:"whose only partner is a stone butch" is certainly true. Just one and hy is it for me. But does this definition mean always? That is all I want. Because all I want is hym and so then that part is true. Will it always be true? That I want hym yes, that I want only others like hym? how about we not go there because that would be sad to consider.

Then of course the part of "whose sexual style accepts the sexual boundaries and limitations of any stonebutch with grace and understanding, who never pushes the limits and boundaries of any stone butch" which is a resounding yes of course.

Next up is the part of "who loves butchcock and the masculinity of stone butches it represents." Yep again, swoon for sure. Now is that the only form of masculinity I would desire? Possibly.

The sticking point for me in looking at defintions like this is that it is about the other person. Only the first part is about me. If I was going to take on an additional sexual definition that I choose to explain me and my sexual expression wouldn't I state it in terms of my expression?

Still working on this obviously.

[QueenofSmirks]

...
The sticking point for me in looking at defintions like this is that it is about the other person. Only the first part is about me. If I was going to take on an additional sexual definition that I choose to explain me and my sexual expression wouldn't I state it in terms of my expression?

Still working on this obviously.



Jenna, your point, and opinion of such, is shared by others. I know many who don't accept that definition of stone femme for that very reason - they refuse to be defined by their choice of partner(s). I, myself, dated stone butches for years, and yet, I would never claim the identity of stone femme, not only because I don't agree with that definition of stone femme, but because even if I did, I wouldn't ever identify myself by my partner's identity. I can claim the identity of "girlfriend" but that would apply no matter what my partner's identity is. That definition of stone femme however, essentially requires one's partner to be stone butch, it can't be used with any other partner identity. MY OWN definition of stone femme, can, however. My definition of stone femme is one who's sexual boundaries are much like that of a stone butch, it has nothing to do with the gender identity or expression of one's partner, IN MY OPINION.

[Cid]

As I posted in another thread, I have appreciated the freedom that an identity serves. When I came to the insight that I was a stone femme, it explained a lot and allowed me to accept all that I was and what I could give---without guilt. That's the big thing here.

Being stone sets boundaries. But in some circles where there is little understanding, it makes us selfish or cold in some way.

There is another connection in stone intimacy that we don't talk about. That "energy" that emerges between two stones is more than just lust. Sometimes it takes on a spiritual note because of the level of trust that is being offered. And if that couple explores areas that slip beyond vanilla, the trust and caring is magnified.

But finding that counterpart is a challenge. I am reluctant to mingle in the wider lesbian community in real time and lead with my heart because I do not want to become fond of someone, knowing I can't deliver what they want and need.

It is often a lonely road we stones walk, ever alert for that person who is our complement. But that is also what makes us who we are.


I just started reading this part of the board and I'm so glad I took the time. I've struggled with this for a long time. When I first started dating a woman she was a stone butch. I didn't really know anything about anything at that time, but I did know that having sex with her was amazing. At the same time, I felt like I was being selfish and that I wasn't doing what I needed to do to please her. It took quite a bit of convincing, but I got it. After that, the sex was so amazing. And as you said Jane, the energy was like nothing I've ever felt before. I felt like I could fly, it was so intense.

When we parted, I started dating a butch, but she wasn't stone. I tried to please her, but it was more of a struggle for me and I just couldn't do it. Eventually that partnership ended. I knew that I couldn't give her what she need or wanted and the guilt made it too hard to live with.

So now I know that I'm not defining myself by what someone else wants, it's what I want. And the best thing about it, is that I don't have to feel guilty about it.

[DapperButch]

So now I know that I'm not defining myself by what someone else wants, it's what I want. And the best thing about it, is that I don't have to feel guilty about it.


Love the sense of empowerment in this statement! :thumbsup:

[ValKyrie]

Wow... this has been really amazing for me to read. Up until a little more then a year ago, I had never heard the word stone in relation to butch and femme. I was pretty sheltered, though. Even though I have known that I preferred women (the butch kind) since I was a teenager, I only just came out last August. I've been married twice to bio men, and have had sex with a lot of bio men, trying to convince myself that I really was hetero. I have had a lot of secret trysts with butches over the years before I came out, but I still never heard the term stone.

As I am reading these threads about stonefemme and stone butch, I am realizing that I really fit here. I was drawn to these threads because I am currently in a committed relationship with a stone butch, and it has been hard to find others who understand what that is. And after reading I'm starting to wonder if I am stonefemme. I LOVE being with my guy! She rocks my world in ways I didn't know were possible. At first it was difficult for me to understand that she didn't want me to touch her certain ways, or only wanted me to touch her in certain places if she actually put my hand there, and she told me before we ever had sex that she never wanted to recieve oral or be penetrated in any way. I had the kind of mindset that I needed to please my sexual partners, and if I didn't instigate touching her that I wasn't really pleasing her. She was really patient and gentle with me and I came to an understanding about what pleases her.

So on to me and my possible stoness (is that a word? ha!)... Being with my stone, I have discovered what it is to feel true pleasure. I have struggled with past sexual encounters, to reach an orgasm. In my current relationship I am multiple orgasmic. I have reached an orgasm just from her whispering in my ear and telling me to cum. Thinking about it, I really think it has to do with being able to let go and just be in the moment with my partner. I don't spend the whole time thinking about whether I'm touching them right, or if they like what I am doing. I don't have to guess. I am realizing that in the past, I did so many things with partners, that I really didn't like, didn't feel comfortable with, or just plain disgusted me. But I did it, because I felt like I had to please my partner. With my current partner, it really gets me off to know that she gets so caught up in my pleasure that she is pleased. I don't have to think about every little touch, or sound I make. I can let go and just feel and react to her, and if she wants more or different she shows me what it is. I can't imagine going back to being with someone who was not stone. I don't want to wear a strap on... not ever! And I have found that I like touching her in some areas but only when she is guiding me and showing me and telling me. Maybe it has more to do with a dominance thing? I am really fierce and more dominant outside of the bedroom, but I am really submissive when it comes to sex.

So I still don't know for sure... I don't really like labels, but it is relieving to find others who feel similar to me. Thank you... I will continue to read and absorb from this weatlh of information and experience.

[Jhenay]

Hi there,
I just started making postings tonight. ValKyrie, your post could have almost been my own. I fell for a Stone Butch top a couple years ago, and I was hooked. Until then I had only been involved with men, and unhappily so. Unfortunately the distance was a deal breaker, though we have remained best friends.

When I started dating again at 50, I knew I would probably never again be attracted to a man...beyond a certain point. But trying to find a stone butch on a dating site....is the proverbial needle in a haystack!

I absolutely LOVE stone butch, especially dominant ones with a little "edge". And I really HATE the term "pillow princess". As if the Stone Femme is always selfish and has nothing to give back. Sure there are women like that, lesbian or straight... but I love to make my stone butch partner happy....in whatever ways hys heart desires.

[sofimichi]

I think that butch-femme dynamics are fascinating. However, I feel that the term "stone" femme is far too confusing because it can relate to
1) being "stone" or being a Top and Dominant
or, 2) being reciprocal to a "stone" partner.
Can i humbly propose "feather" as a term for the reciprocal partner? I think it's a funny nod to the idea of being a "pillow queen" as well as being reciprocally "soft" for a "hard" partner.
(I don't mean any disrespect, I just have the hardest time following this thread!)

[Redsunflower]

I love this site and have particularly loved this thread. The reason is that without this safe place, I would have never have learned about my own sexuality or succeeded in correctly identifying, without shame, my own needs and desires, and the potential partners with whom I may fit.

I am a stone femme and proud.

Love to you all.

(f)

[fatallyblonde]

yep, I'm a catcher not a pitcher ;) - ever! It couldn't do less for me to be the pitcher. There is just such a deeply intrinsic natural feeling for me to be stone femme bottom.

in my experience there are two types of stone femme - bottoms and tops and tops conduct themselves in bed much as stone butches do. my former bff is a stone femme top. I am strictly bottom.

of course in my youth I did a lot of different types of things in bed, all in the name of experimentation and finding out what I and my partner enjoyed etc. over time this has felt the most natural and satisfying to me.

I am happy to be flexible to my partner's needs... during sex I like to be able to squeeze the butt, but I can not do that if required. I can 'worship the mini cock' as lilith put it... I think the only thing that would pose a challenge to me is doing anything to the chest area but I personally haven't had a stone butch want me to! The most important thing to me really is that I am the bottom, the submissive and the catcher and not expected to do any penetration... it is such a turn off for me, I feel really unnatural doing it!

I am really sick of the attitude that stone femmes are lazy or selfish in bed too... I playfully call myself a pillow princess but the truth is I do plenty in bed... kissing, embracing, sucking off where desired and the most important and significant thing, providing my body for my partner's pleasure... and all the responsiveness I show. That is absolute participation.

And yes stone sex is definitely lesbian sex... two women having sex is lesbian sex, whatever kind of activities they are doing!

[Gemme]

And yes stone sex is definitely lesbian sex... two women having sex is lesbian sex, whatever kind of activities they are doing!

I was wholeheartedly with you until this.

Not all Stones id as lesbian. I don't. Many of our Stone Butches identify as lesbian and many of them do not. Some of them identify as female and/or women and some of them do not, so Stone sex is not always 'two women having sex'.

We're very lucky to have many presentations of our community here. Welcome to the discussion!

[Red Dirt Girl]

I love this site and have particularly loved this thread. The reason is that without this safe place, I would have never have learned about my own sexuality or succeeded in correctly identifying, without shame, my own needs and desires, and the potential partners with whom I may fit.

I am a stone femme and proud.

Love to you all.

(f)

Yes! Yes! Yes! As I've said before, it was such a joy and relief to discover that stone femme was an option, and that it was a preferred option for some partners. Yay for enlightenment and embracing ourselves!!!

[fatallyblonde]

Hi Gemme... yes I am aware of that! I guess I phrased badly... I didn't mean that all stones are women... or that all stone sex is lesbian sex... but if sex is happening between two people who identify as women it is lesbian sex... which would make stone sex in that situation lesbian sex. is that more clear? sorry guys, didn't mean to erase any identities, I was just focusing on women partners involved in response to the idea expressed that stone sex couldn't be lesbian.

[Chained Daisy]

Its taking me some time to read this thread, so many points to take in, fascinating and thought provoking....

[Contradictor]

Okay, so I'm going to come right out and be blunt about this since I"m confused and need a straight answer about this. I apologize for any discomfort my brevity may cause, but I can assure you I am coming from a place of curiosity and not animosity.


So, a stone butch is one who does not want physical stimulation of their genitals, and a stone femme is someone who receives genital stimulation but does not stimulate their partner genitally. Is this correct?


What if there is a butch or a femme who doesn't want to give or receive stimulation?

I've been confused about this too. Much as I am not the biggest fan of labels in a lot of capacities, I am intrigued by what one would be applicable to me.

I'm femme in appearance. I wear make up and dresses (occasionally but I like to sometimes) and usually stereotypical feminine clothing.
However I'm a top in bed mostly. I don't like receiving oral and don't like being penetrated. Certain types of touch CAN excite me but at the same time they're so few and far between that I can quite easily do without being touched at all and would rather it that way. I'm good with getting my partner off and I am only attracted to butch. I'm the one who always drives, the one who arranges dates etc. I am often intrigued as to what it would be like to be taken out by a butch who is more into doing the traditional butch role... A small part of me thinks I'd like it but It's a very small part and it feels quite alien mostly. I've always done the 'date' thing by arranging, paying and being the one 'in charge of it' if you will. So I'm not a stonefemme by the above definition. I am not sure what I am. A butch in disguise? (I am being lighthearted really but at the same time I would like some input). :)

[CherylNYC]

I've been confused about this too. Much as I am not the biggest fan of labels in a lot of capacities, I am intrigued by what one would be applicable to me.

I'm femme in appearance. I wear make up and dresses (occasionally but I like to sometimes) and usually stereotypical feminine clothing.
However I'm a top in bed mostly. I don't like receiving oral and don't like being penetrated. Certain types of touch CAN excite me but at the same time they're so few and far between that I can quite easily do without being touched at all and would rather it that way. I'm good with getting my partner off and I am only attracted to butch. I'm the one who always drives, the one who arranges dates etc. I am often intrigued as to what it would be like to be taken out by a butch who is more into doing the traditional butch role... A small part of me thinks I'd like it but It's a very small part and it feels quite alien mostly. I've always done the 'date' thing by arranging, paying and being the one 'in charge of it' if you will. So I'm not a stonefemme by the above definition. I am not sure what I am. A butch in disguise? (I am being lighthearted really but at the same time I would like some input). :)

Yeah, no. Being in charge doesn't equal butch. I understand that you're kind of joking, and I'm trying not to tear my hair out because it upsets me that so many people really do buy into this cultural stereotype.

You describe yourself as femme, and as a top. That means you're a femme top. You aren't interested in being penetrated, and you're reluctant to receive touch. Yes, many people would call you stone. Femme Stone Top. Or a Stone Femme. Yes, it's confusing. I continue to advocate for a change in nomenclature.

I know other women like you. I believe there are some who have or do frequent this site.

[girl_dee]

I've been confused about this too. Much as I am not the biggest fan of labels in a lot of capacities, I am intrigued by what one would be applicable to me.

I'm femme in appearance. I wear make up and dresses (occasionally but I like to sometimes) and usually stereotypical feminine clothing.
However I'm a top in bed mostly. I don't like receiving oral and don't like being penetrated. Certain types of touch CAN excite me but at the same time they're so few and far between that I can quite easily do without being touched at all and would rather it that way. I'm good with getting my partner off and I am only attracted to butch. I'm the one who always drives, the one who arranges dates etc. I am often intrigued as to what it would be like to be taken out by a butch who is more into doing the traditional butch role... A small part of me thinks I'd like it but It's a very small part and it feels quite alien mostly. I've always done the 'date' thing by arranging, paying and being the one 'in charge of it' if you will. So I'm not a stonefemme by the above definition. I am not sure what I am. A butch in disguise? (I am being lighthearted really but at the same time I would like some input). :)

I could have written most of this but the "traditional butch role" is by your defenition only. I have been "in charge" in relationships, in bed and otherwise, i don't like receiving oral sex, but not once, even for a second, have i felt butch or stone.

My issue is i am.stubborn and don't like being vulnerable so i "take charge". However when it is safe i totally enjoy being spoiled and being swept off my feet, by a butch.

Maybe you could find one to let you enjoy it too.

[Contradictor]

Yeah, no. Being in charge doesn't equal butch. I understand that you're kind of joking, and I'm trying not to tear my hair out because it upsets me that so many people really do buy into this cultural stereotype.

You describe yourself as femme, and as a top. That means you're a femme top. You aren't interested in being penetrated, and you're reluctant to receive touch. Yes, many people would call you stone. Femme Stone Top. Or a Stone Femme. Yes, it's confusing. I continue to advocate for a change in nomenclature.

I know other women like you. I believe there are some who have or do frequent this site.

Thank you for the reply Cheryl, let me apologise for being 'one of those' it wasn't intentional. It isn't so much that I buy into stereotypes, in fact I too have been annoyed by them when people make assumptions about me. (Admittedly usually cis males but not always), more that I have been influenced by them and been questioning which one I would or would not be and I felt like I was an outsider ( I must clarify it wasn't somethng that kept me awake at night so to speak).

I am happy to adopt the stone femme label, I know labels can be very damaging but they can be useful when used correctly and I was feeling a bit bewildered. I think with me personally too, I have only just began to question things and only just become au fait with the internet. So it's a bit of a new world even though in 'real life' I've never had an issue with things. It's natural curiosity I gues.


I could have written most of this but the "traditional butch role" is by your defenition only. I have been "in charge" in relationships, in bed and otherwise, i don't like receiving oral sex, but not once, even for a second, have i felt butch or stone.

My issue is i am.stubborn and don't like being vulnerable so i "take charge". However when it is safe i totally enjoy being spoiled and being swept off my feet, by a butch.

Maybe you could find one to let you enjoy it too.

Yes, I have had that definition as an amalgamation as what I've read (not on here I must add)!

We do sound similar although I do feel 'butch' in some ways, and although in (very) small situations I've melted a little when a butch has done something for me or to me, I generally do not like it. I'm in a long term relationship with a butch, but we fell into our way of working very quickly although she does struggle a little with some things I do or don't do.

[girl_dee]

Yes, I have had that definition as an amalgamation as what I've read (not on here I must add)!



For that i am glad. This is a space where we don't use language ("traditional butch role") as a rule of thumb.

Who wants to have to fit in a box?

As things you do and don't do, thats normal isn't it? Who completes each other's lists 100%. Doesn't seem like that would be normal.

[CherylNYC]

Thank you for the reply Cheryl, let me apologise for being 'one of those' it wasn't intentional. It isn't so much that I buy into stereotypes, in fact I too have been annoyed by them when people make assumptions about me. (Admittedly usually cis males but not always), more that I have been influenced by them and been questioning which one I would or would not be and I felt like I was an outsider ( I must clarify it wasn't somethng that kept me awake at night so to speak).

I am happy to adopt the stone femme label, I know labels can be very damaging but they can be useful when used correctly and I was feeling a bit bewildered. I think with me personally too, I have only just began to question things and only just become au fait with the internet. So it's a bit of a new world even though in 'real life' I've never had an issue with things. It's natural curiosity I gues.


Yes, I have had that definition as an amalgamation as what I've read (not on here I must add)!

We do sound similar although I do feel 'butch' in some ways, and although in (very) small situations I've melted a little when a butch has done something for me or to me, I generally do not like it. I'm in a long term relationship with a butch, but we fell into our way of working very quickly although she does struggle a little with some things I do or don't do.

I'm so glad you've found someone who respects your boundaries. Just be aware that even though your language makes perfect sense you'll have to explain what you mean when you use that label to describe yourself. It often means exactly the opposite of the way you mean it. I'm also a stonefemme. I'm always a catcher and never a pitcher. I will not and cannot be a sexual top. I will not and cannot penetrate my partner.

Yup. Stonefemme. Nope, the language we've adopted makes no sense at all, but it's what we have now.

[Contradictor]

For that i am glad. This is a space where we don't use language ("traditional butch role") as a rule of thumb.

Who wants to have to fit in a box?

As things you do and don't do, thats normal isn't it? Who completes each other's lists 100%. Doesn't seem like that would be normal.

Me, to an extent (see what's written under my custom user title)! I am still trying to understand myself after decades of hiding from who I am (to most).
Maybe we don't, however the name of the forum suggests labels of some sort are part of this community, as do a large percentage of the threads, and the 'how do you identify' public question and answer.

I'm so glad you've found someone who respects your boundaries. Just be aware that even though your language makes perfect sense you'll have to explain what you mean when you use that label to describe yourself. It often means exactly the opposite of the way you mean it. I'm also a stonefemme. I'm always a catcher and never a pitcher. I will not and cannot be a sexual top. I will not and cannot penetrate my partner.

Yup. Stonefemme. Nope, the language we've adopted makes no sense at all, but it's what we have now.

I am, which is one reason I don't want to use it. It has taken me a long time to get to this stage, from a family of homophobes and I know I can never go totally public. I guess this makes it a little more important to me? Maybe. Maybe also the fact I'm a sociologist by nature and trade. But, more important things in life too.

[girl_dee]

Me, to an extent (see what's written under my custom user title)! I am still trying to understand myself after decades of hiding from who I am (to most).
Maybe we don't, however the name of the forum suggests labels of some sort are part of this community, as do a large percentage of the threads, and the 'how do you identify' public question and answer.



I am, which is one reason I don't want to use it. It has taken me a long time to get to this stage, from a family of homophobes and I know I can never go totally public. I guess this makes it a little more important to me? Maybe. Maybe also the fact I'm a sociologist by nature and trade. But, more important things in life too.


We are all evolving.

i feel how stone or not stone we may also depend on our sexual counterpart. It can be very difficult as a femme to know what is allowed and what is not allowed when with a butch. It’s a learning process. Just because they allow something doesn’t mean i am into it, but i could be. i am not good at figuring it out so it’s easier to just ask questions. I think there is a stigma among the butch community that if they are not stone, they are somehow less butch. Nothing could be further than the truth in my eyes.

If my butch is stone, would that not make me stone too? That feels so very limiting to me, but that is probably because i am not a stone femme.

[DapperButch]

We are all evolving.

i feel how stone or not stone we may also depend on our sexual counterpart. It can be very difficult as a femme to know what is allowed and what is not allowed when with a butch. It’s a learning process. Just because they allow something doesn’t mean i am into it, but i could be. i am not good at figuring it out so it’s easier to just ask questions. I think there is a stigma among the butch community that if they are not stone, they are somehow less butch. Nothing could be further than the truth in my eyes.

If my butch is stone, would that not make me stone too? That feels so very limiting to me, but that is probably because i am not a stone femme.

There are people who identify as Stone and this dictates their behavior (what they do or do not do, what they allow or do not allow). And then there are people who respect their Stone partners boundaries, and are not Stone, themselves. It sounds like you respect your partner's boundaries and are not Stone. You are adjusting according to your partners boundaries, you are not being more of less stone based on their boundaries. Who we partner with does not determine our identity.

I have always preferred to date queer femmes who identify as Stone. I don't want a woman who is limiting her desires in order to be with me. I want her desires to match my desires.

[BullDog]

Dapper, I hear what you are saying about wanting a femme to id as stone, but in my experience I have known quite a few femmes (both friends and potential romantic interest) who are happy to partner with a stone butch or a butch who is not and when they are with a stone butch they don't feel they are missing anything. Of course that would not be true for all femmes. It all depends on range of preferences.

[girl_dee]

There are people who identify as Stone and this dictates their behavior (what they do or do not do, what they allow or do not allow). And then there are people who respect their Stone partners boundaries, and are not Stone, themselves. It sounds like you respect your partner's boundaries and are not Stone. You are adjusting according to your partners boundaries, you are not being more of less stone based on their boundaries. Who we partner with does not determine our identity.

I have always preferred to date queer femmes who identify as Stone. I don't want a woman who is limiting her desires in order to be with me. I want her desires to match my desires.

i don’t see it any differently than a straight couple who have to work out what their common needs/wants/desires are and that they act accordingly. If i am in love with someone and they are with me, and we do have some common sexual desires, we shouldn’t feel like we are missing out on anything if we enjoy some of the same things.

Stone /not stone is not my identity, its a sexual behavior IMO

[DapperButch]

Bull Dog, girl dee, just giving my opinion, based on my experiences and preferences.

[BullDog]

Yes of course Dapper. And there are some Stones who only want to date/partner with other Stones and that is absolutely their right.

I personally have found many femmes who are happy and fulfilled either way. So for me, it is more likely I will be compatible with a stone femme but don't think it's an absolute requirement that they specifically id that way.

I have also had a few femmes who id as stone femmes tell me they have dated/partnered with butches and FTMs who did not specifically id as Stone but their preferences and how they related to each other still matched well, so it wasn't an issue.

[girl_dee]

Bull Dog, girl dee, just giving my opinion, based on my experiences and preferences.

of course, thats what we are all doing :)

[Gemme]

of course, thats what we are all doing :)

Yep.

In the Femme Zone.

:sunglass:

[BullDog]

There have been butches and FTMs participating in this thread from the very beginning. And femmes participate all the time - and I do mean all the time - in butch threads. A recent example - About Butches Q & A. I am happy for their input.

There are clearly threads that should be femme-only or butch-only. I wasn't aware this was one of them.

[girl_dee]

There have been butches and FTMs participating in this thread from the very beginning. And femmes participate all the time - and I do mean all the time - in butch threads. A recent example - About Butches Q & A. I am happy for their input.

There are clearly threads that should be femme-only or butch-only. I wasn't aware this was one of them.


Honestly i don’t post in butch zone threads. i appreciate them SO much and enjoy reading but feel its a no post zone for me.

It does bother me when we cross post, i do feel we should have our space on each side. Its just been done so much, it’s just what happens...

[Gemme]

It's not a 'never enter' thing, Bully. It's a 'I was excited that this thread was active again' only to see that half the new posts came from outside the femme scope.

You are right. None of us have a place that's 'just ours' anymore, so just ignore my frustration. I can always unsubscribe.

*shrug*

[BullDog]

Gemme, I just feel it is a very big double standard, because femmes do post a great deal in the butch zone and it never seems to be an issue, but when butches are in the femme zone feathers fly. I do see threads where it is clearly inappropriate. Anyway, I am happy to not post in the Femme Zone from now on.

Sorry for the derail.

[DapperButch]

Yep.

In the Femme Zone.

:sunglass:

Gemme, I just feel it is a very big double standard, because femmes do post a great deal in the butch zone and it never seems to be an issue, but when butches are in the femme zone feathers fly. I do see threads where it is clearly inappropriate. Anyway, I am happy to not post in the Femme Zone from now on.

Sorry for the derail.

It is true that there are some femmes who post in butch threads all of the time. I have not said anything about it because if someone says something the response you hear is that we are supposed to write in the OP that it is for <gender> only. However, I personally think that if the thread is to ask a certain group a question, only that group should respond.

With that said, after I posted I sort of panicked and went back and read the first post. It looks like it is a thread for stone femmes along with input open to butches (and now skimming through it looks like people of all stripes participated). It noted that it was a thread to be a counterpart of the Stone Butch thread at the time.

Anyway, even though I saw butches were allowed to come in, I felt weird about it, which is why I wrote such a brief response to Bull Dog and girl dee.

Gemme, I think there is another Stone Femme thread out there that only has Stone Femme participants. I am definitely one for support specific group only spaces.

[CherylNYC]

Back to the discussion- I'm one of those stone femmes who doesn't want to risk dating a non-stone butch. I know I'll just be waiting for the inevitable, excruciating moment when they tell me they're not satisfied with my boundaries. I'm still not confident enough about it to risk that.

My most recent ex was 100% stone. What a relief! I felt no pressure and no insecurity. That part of our relationship was so pleasantly comfortable and relaxed. She told me she was similarly relieved. I want that level of comfort in any future relationship, so I think I'm going to have to stick with stone butches exclusively.

[girl_dee]

Back to the discussion- I'm one of those stone femmes who doesn't want to risk dating a non-stone butch. I know I'll just be waiting for the inevitable, excruciating moment when they tell me they're not satisfied with my boundaries. I'm still not confident enough about it to risk that.

My most recent ex was 100% stone. What a relief! I felt no pressure and no insecurity. That part of our relationship was so pleasantly comfortable and relaxed. She told me she was similarly relieved. I want that level of comfort in any future relationship, so I think I'm going to have to stick with stone butches exclusively.

it’s awesome when you find someone who matches your desires. It’t not easy in our community.

There are so many variables within stone and non-stone, it’s hard to find someone that matches them perfectly.

[dark_crystal]

Stone butches will experience me as stone, non-stone butches will experience me as flexible.

The receptive role is default for me, but I will provide any service that is requested, and enjoy both being asked and being complaint. They do have to request it, though, i am never going to seek out the active role.

I enjoy performing those services but i don't feel deprived when i am with someone who does not request any particular thing. Some butches are into queening and some never take off their pants and i'm just there making sure they get what they need.

[Medusa]

I happy with responses from all identities on whatever I post in here jtbo.

I checked back to see if I had ever posted in here and was surprised to see that I hadn't (or maybe not surprised).

I've never identified as a StoneFemme but have been identified as a StoneFemme based on being partnered to folks who identified as Stone or "Touch me not" (their term).
The thing I remember from back in the day on the Dash site is how surprised I was to find that there are folks out there who don't enjoy certain things. Granted, I was 22 when I found the Dash site and had dated/partnered with people up until that point where anything went. So began my education!

I remember reading that some folks used the term "Stone" to mean "very", as in "I'm Femme and never take on or am perceived as any other identity", and that's an oversimplification but the gist of it was more about identity than sexual behavior.
Because some of those StoneFemmes would talk openly about the kind of sex they were having with their partners and it didn't sound like anything was out of bounds.
Still, overwhelmingly I think "Stone" is defined by what touch is and is not allowed.

I dated someone in my very early 20s (who has never been a member of the B-F community but who did identify as Butch) who said that nothing was off-limits with her sexually but I found that wasn't true. I don't think she was misrepresenting herself or anything, just that she saw herself as a lot freer with her sexual boundaries than she actually was. And this is not a judgment at all, just an observation on her own self-perception.
I did find myself a little frustrated toward the end of our time dating because I found myself in the position of "always receiver", which was GREAT, but wasn't as fulfilling for me as being a full participant would have been.
(and yes, I'm being delicate here LOL)

Navigating desire can be tricky for sure but I have found that being 100% honest about what you do and don't like right up front goes a long way. And you know? It's ok to say to someone "I am not really into x, y, z right now but that could change", as long as it's not a dangling carrot or a manipulative thing.
We certainly don't owe access to our bodies to anyone and we always always always get to define our desires for ourselves. I've been super appreciative of the people I have dated who were in touch with their desires enough to say to me "Yeah, I am not ever going to want x, y, z" because if that x,y,z thing is something that REALLY does it for me sexually, I definitely want to know right up front if that is available to me or not.

EH, I'm rambling but hell, it's been a while since I've posted anything other than bullshit so here it is. LOL

[girl_dee]

SNIP
I've never identified as a StoneFemme but have been identified as a StoneFemme based on being partnered to folks who identified as Stone or "Touch me not" (their term).


This. This is what i was referring to earlier.

[dark_crystal]

Stone butches will experience me as stone, non-stone butches will experience me as flexible.

The receptive role is default for me, but I will provide any service that is requested, and enjoy both being asked and being complaint. They do have to request it, though, i am never going to seek out the active role.

I enjoy performing those services but i don't feel deprived when i am with someone who does not request any particular thing. Some butches are into queening and some never take off their pants and i'm just there making sure they get what they need.

Reply to rep q: "Queening" = facesitting

[CherylNYC]

...
Stone /not stone is not my identity, its a sexual behavior IMO

Is stone-ness an identity, a behavioral boundary, or simply a behavior? One butch who has posted in butch-femme forums, as well as in an online bdsm site, (there seems to be a lot of overlap), has written a gorgeous defense of the Stone Butch identity as a state of the soul. Stone-ness as a metaphor. The impenetrability of the Stone Butch (capitalized as a proper noun and a signal of dominance) as a social/spiritual identity. If I could easily find that post I would link to it here. It's hard not to be convinced with language that beautiful and emotionally anchored.

For better or worse, that doesn't apply to me. Being a stonefemme is an important part of who I am, and I'm both empowered and limited by it. My stonefemme identity is core for me, but it is NOT a social identity or a spiritual state for me as it seems to be for some others. It does, however, seem to be very connected to my core identity as a sexual submissive. Being strictly a catcher means that I'm the receptive, submissive counterpart to a sexually dominant partner. In bed. I'm not behaving as a catcher. I AM a catcher. I can't pitch, and I'm not interested in entertaining requests to do so. That would be sex I don't want to have. Whether I'm coerced into it by a badgering date/partner, (If you really cared about me and my needs....), or if I press myself into the act, (I'm a LESBIAN fer Pete's sake! Why can't I do this?), engaging in sex I don't want is a very bad idea. One stonefemme friend described forcing herself to penetrate her butch partner at a time prior to knowing her own boundaries as raping herself. Yes, it has felt that way to me, too. So... no. I would never call it a simple behavior choice. Not for me. It's part of my identity, just as being a lesbian is my identity.

Would a femme without her own stone boundaries, who respects the boundaries of her stone butch partner, subsequently be called a stonefemme because she is behaving as one? Everyone can self identify in all the ways of their own choosing, but I wouldn't call that person a stonefemme. Being a stonefemme means those are your own boundaries.

And because I couldn't turn off the feminist critique even if my life depended on it, I have to add that I think it's incredibly important for women to define ourselves rather than to define who we are in relationship to our partners.

[DapperButch]

Is stone-ness an identity, a behavioral boundary, or simply a behavior? One butch who has posted in butch-femme forums, as well as in an online bdsm site, (there seems to be a lot of overlap), has written a gorgeous defense of the Stone Butch identity as a state of the soul. Stone-ness as a metaphor. The impenetrability of the Stone Butch (capitalized as a proper noun and a signal of dominance) as a social/spiritual identity. If I could easily find that post I would link to it here. It's hard not to be convinced with language that beautiful and emotionally anchored.

For better or worse, that doesn't apply to me. Being a stonefemme is an important part of who I am, and I'm both empowered and limited by it. My stonefemme identity is core for me, but it is NOT a social identity or a spiritual state for me as it seems to be for some others. It does, however, seem to be very connected to my core identity as a sexual submissive. Being strictly a catcher means that I'm the receptive, submissive counterpart to a sexually dominant partner. In bed. I'm not behaving as a catcher. I AM a catcher. I can't pitch, and I'm not interested in entertaining requests to do so. That would be sex I don't want to have. Whether I'm coerced into it by a badgering date/partner, (If you really cared about me and my needs....), or if I press myself into the act, (I'm a LESBIAN fer Pete's sake! Why can't I do this?), engaging in sex I don't want is a very bad idea. One stonefemme friend described forcing herself to penetrate her butch partner at a time prior to knowing her own boundaries as raping herself. Yes, it has felt that way to me, too. So... no. I would never call it a simple behavior choice. Not for me. It's part of my identity, just as being a lesbian is my identity.

Would a femme without her own stone boundaries, who respects the boundaries of her stone butch partner, subsequently be called a stonefemme because she is behaving as one? Everyone can self identify in all the ways of their own choosing, but I wouldn't call that person a stonefemme. Being a stonefemme means those are your own boundaries.

And because I couldn't turn off the feminist critique even if my life depended on it, I have to add that I think it's incredibly important for women to define ourselves rather than to define who we are in relationship to our partners.

Great post. Thank you. Being Stone is not about behavior in relation to one's partners boundaries at all. It is about our own boundaries and for those who identify as Stone, part of their identity.

[~ocean]

We are all our own woman ~ I am what I am ~ no one can define me ~ just saying :)

[girl_dee]

Great post. Thank you. Being Stone is not about behavior in relation to one's partners boundaries at all.

Dapper you do realize not all of us femmes share in your opinion here?

[DapperButch]

Dapper you do realize not all of us femmes share in your opinion here?

dee,

Yes, I understand that you do not see Stone as a identity, you said, "Stone /not stone is not my identity, its a sexual behavior IMO"

Cheryl quoted the above and said that for her, Stone is an identity. I highlighted her post to say that I too saw Stone as an identity, rather than just a behavior.

The only additional thing I said that she didn't say is that it is common for Stones to see this as part of their identity. That is why people list Stone in the identity section of their profiles.

I don't understand why my post rubbed you the wrong way. I am truly scratching my head.

I am going to bow out of the thread like a couple others have.

[Shystonefem]

Is stone-ness an identity, a behavioral boundary, or simply a behavior? One butch who has posted in butch-femme forums, as well as in an online bdsm site, (there seems to be a lot of overlap), has written a gorgeous defense of the Stone Butch identity as a state of the soul. Stone-ness as a metaphor. The impenetrability of the Stone Butch (capitalized as a proper noun and a signal of dominance) as a social/spiritual identity. If I could easily find that post I would link to it here. It's hard not to be convinced with language that beautiful and emotionally anchored.

For better or worse, that doesn't apply to me. Being a stonefemme is an important part of who I am, and I'm both empowered and limited by it. My stonefemme identity is core for me, but it is NOT a social identity or a spiritual state for me as it seems to be for some others. It does, however, seem to be very connected to my core identity as a sexual submissive. Being strictly a catcher means that I'm the receptive, submissive counterpart to a sexually dominant partner. In bed. I'm not behaving as a catcher. I AM a catcher. I can't pitch, and I'm not interested in entertaining requests to do so. That would be sex I don't want to have. Whether I'm coerced into it by a badgering date/partner, (If you really cared about me and my needs....), or if I press myself into the act, (I'm a LESBIAN fer Pete's sake! Why can't I do this?), engaging in sex I don't want is a very bad idea. One stonefemme friend described forcing herself to penetrate her butch partner at a time prior to knowing her own boundaries as raping herself. Yes, it has felt that way to me, too. So... no. I would never call it a simple behavior choice. Not for me. It's part of my identity, just as being a lesbian is my identity.

Would a femme without her own stone boundaries, who respects the boundaries of her stone butch partner, subsequently be called a stonefemme because she is behaving as one? Everyone can self identify in all the ways of their own choosing, but I wouldn't call that person a stonefemme. Being a stonefemme means those are your own boundaries.

And because I couldn't turn off the feminist critique even if my life depended on it, I have to add that I think it's incredibly important for women to define ourselves rather than to define who we are in relationship to our partners.

Exactly what you said

[kittygrrl]

I still haven't figured out what a Stone femme is. I'm married to a Stonebutch, but i'm not "Stone" in any way. This is how he identifies which I respect immensely. If you are Stone then it's fine if you identify by it but to be thrown into that category simply because you are going with a Stone doesn't feel logical. Also it seems to me it's not just a behavior but a part of who you and how you see things (imo). It's wonderful to see so many different points of view because it helps me to crystallize mine. Thanks everyone.:candle:

[girl_dee]

I still haven't figured out what a Stone femme is. I'm married to a Stonebutch, but i'm not "Stone" in any way. This is how he identifies which I respect immensely. If you are Stone then it's fine if you identify by it but to be thrown into that category simply because you are going with a Stone doesn't feel logical. Also it seems to me it's not just a behavior but a part of who you and how you see things (imo). It's wonderful to see so many different points of view because it helps me to crystalize mine. Thanks everyone.:candle:

exactly, and i love that we all have our own POV and can share them without putting them on our femme sisters.