Lesbian Butches - Coming home to ourselves....

[Kobi]

In the lesbian pride thread, some butches expressed the feeling of wanting to reconcil with their woman/female selves after years of self-estrangement.

So, here is a space to ferret it out for ourselves. I am not sure how best to do this so I will just throw out some ideas to get things rolling.

We might want to talk about how we became self estranged - was it an internal thing, were there external forces at play, was it a combination?

We might also want to talk about how self estrangement feels to us and the impact it had on how we see ourselves.

We might want to address what led us to want to reconcil this part of us and why doing so is important to us.

We might also want to make suggestions on how to reconcil with yourself, what does it involve?

And we might want to express our thoughts on how we envision this reconciliation to enhance who we are.

Feel free to add on here.

I trust the respect and support that developed in the Lesbian Pride thread, from all parts of the community, will continue here.

[Daktari]

I will watch with interest. The other lesbian threads have been thought very provoking for a myriad of reasons.

[Chazz]

Thank you for the thread, Kobi.


WHY LESBIAN ETHICS
by Sarah Lucia Hoagland

"In claiming lesbian focus, I began to notice things I had not noticed when my focus was on men or on women [or, on myself as masculine gendered]. And I found that at this point in time, at least, lesbian existence creates certain conceptual possibilities that can effect conceptual shifts in consciousness." - Sarah Lucia Hoagland


:rrose:

[Kobi]

I should have some idea of where I want this post to go. But I dont. So, what may come will probably be as much a surprise to me as it will be to you.

I never thought to see what I was feeling as an indication of self estrangement. I mean I have always felt female and have always claimed woman. That wasnt my issue.

My issue was more about expressing what female and woman was or could be. I'm 55, life was a whole different ball of wax back then. So, I wasnt estranged per se as much as I just had another vision of reality.

In everyday life, the community I found was one that encouraged women to be whatever and whoever they were. Discussions about lesbian and feminist issues were a big deal. But, I rarely remember discussions about who is a lesbian or what is a lesbian or how lesbians are supposed to look, dress etc. or who fits in the club except in joking ways - i.e. I do not camp. My idea of camping is a fully stocked room at the Marriott. I endured many a ribbing about wtf kind of lesbian was I? Tho, I do remember a few hurricanes where I wished I had those skills and equipment. And, I remember the time my ultra femme but straight landlord showed up to rewire the lamp post in the driveway. She was dressed to kill in a skin tight dress, heels, perfect make up, perfect hair, perfect nails. I, of course, puffed out my chest and went to help i.e. "rescue the lady". It took all of 10 minutes for both of us to conclude I was the most unhandy person on the face of the earth and my butch badge was in serious in jeopardy.

I dont remember any partner of mine who made me feel I wasnt masculine enough or butch enough. I do remember a host of women making it clear I wasnt butch or masculine enough for what they were looking for. But that's different.

My contacts with men and things male was limited to those necessary evils i.e. family, work, friends husbands/boyfriends, neighbors etc. But, my world was women oriented, women filled, women everything. My health professionals were all women, my service people were all women, etc.

As can often happen when you are living your bliss, you get content, comfortable, complacent, and are totally unaware of what is going on around you.

My awareness of female, woman, feminist, butch thing in a whole new way developed from being on this website. Once I got past the shock of wtf are all these men doing here, I was confronted with a new reality that made my internal world go wonky.

Here, as a female, a woman, and a lesbian, I felt threatened and unsafe. As enlightened as one can be, there is always the memory of the patriarchy lingering inside. I was thinking things like it is just a matter of time before these guys take over and macho shitheadness (my all encompassing term for things male) will become the norm. And wth are these women thinking?

It's kind of funny now but it wasnt making me laugh back then. Back then, I was stuck on we have all these zones but no lesbian zone. Hm. I, as a woman and a butch have been lumped in with guys. Hm. I, as a women and a butch, suddenly did not feel I was enough as I was. There seemed to be a masculinity scale thing going on. Hm. I, as a single woman and butch, am competing with men. How the heck does a lesbian compete with men and why would she? Hm. How do I talk to these guys - shouldnt be that complicated but trust me, it was. Hm. Why am I having so much trouble connecting, in the way I am used to connecting, with the women here? Hm. I am surrounded (it seemed) by men who are making me very aware of my femaleness and womanness in a way that is making me uncomfortable. Hm.

It was an internal thing set off by external influences tapping into old stereotypes and histories and setting up new realities and challenges. It took a while to get passed the "I'm too old for this shit" mentality.

But, I learned a lot along the way and am still learning. The men here have been nothing but sweet, nice, pleasant, respectful, supportive and a lot of other nifty things. Even when they do gender based stuff, I know it is not out of malaciousness. And there are plenty of women here ready to deal with it anyway.

For me, being here forced me to revisit myself in a whole new way. It wasnt comfortable or a whole lot of fun, but it has been interesting.

The most important part of it was reconnecting with myself in ways that I hadnt done in decades. Reaffirming my femaleness and womanness has taken on a whole new meaning for me. Being visible as a woman and a lesbian has become very important again. Being involved in the community in a different way has become more important to me.

In some ways it is very simple. In others it is more complex but I dont have the words to explain it. Some of it, I am still trying to figure out. Whatever it is, it feels good. To see others feeling similarly feels validating and reassuring.

Funny thing about being a person. We change, we adapt, we try things on, we find what works, we deal with an endless supply of challenges, we grow, we evolve. And in the end, it is a really all about a journey back to ourselves.

[OS Butch]

Funny that you would start this thread today, for me anyways. I am 54 and I too have always had my woman,female, lesbian self.
Today I found a picture of me in the early 80's. It reminded me that way back then I was searching for the right skin I felt comfy. That picture sure reminded me of the struggles to find out where I fit in.... I look at that picture and boy, was I never gonna fit in as a Femme!
It wasn't long after that that I found comfort in having my masculine side, my Butch came out and I finally was comfortable. Back then, I use to really get upset when I would get a sir, I would say "yanno, I do have boobs" or something blatant like that. Today I just smile and correct them, or not, they figure it out and get just as red.
From 1994 to 2002, when my daughter was in elementary school, I did for my daughter what some consider unthinkable, I again pulled out the dresses for school functions and only school functions. Once she hit intermediate school, it was cool to have a lesbian mom, a butch one at that!
She, my daughter, always accepted me as Butch. It was the outside world that didn't. Now, I don't really care, I am a Lesbian Butch Woman.
OSB...aka Jo or Joan or JJ

[Apocalipstic]

I know this is for Lesbian Butches, but I just have to say...YEAYYY!

[OS Butch]

I know this is for Lesbian Butches, but I just have to say...YEAYYY!

I am sure I didn't see a sign that only Lesbian Butches could come in.:)

[Bard]

well I am proud to be Lesbain and Butch it has at time been aquward for me finding the ballance and understanding myself soneone once put it to me like this I am a study in contrasts yup I am a female tyvm and I love women and I have a lot of masculine traits to long I thougth I had to be one or the other but finally I get it.. I once looked at pictures with my dad and he was like ok what one is the real you and you know he was right I felt lke the bull in the china shop all girlafied much more at home in my own skin in my jeans boots and hats ahh well one of the things I love about the planet is all the diffrences and all we learn form eachother
I hope to give to my daughter the ablity to feel good in her own skin and I always tell her I love you just as you are
off my little soapbox now just thanks to all the butches femms and the famliy here y'all helped me in the journey called living

[bright_arrow]

I know this is for Lesbian Butches, but I just have to say...YEAYYY!

Sing is sistah! ;) Viva la butches ~ woot!

[LipstickLola]

I love all things butch, cuz my gf is :)

[Jess]

Thanks Kobi for this thread. I want to engage in this conversation, however tonight I am just too tired.
Thanks also to everyone participating! I'll be back tomorrow or at some point soon, when I have more energy to offer. Just wanted to send out some good vibes to let ya know this has been seen and appreciated.

[RavynTuqiri]

Hmmmm....interesting and much appreciated thread!

I agree with Kobi's post...to each their own journey....I think the path's we walk on our individual roads to self discovery sometimes lead us right back to where we started...and that's ok too. Self discovery at times is more about self acceptance.

I came out as lesbian when I was 27....being femme or girlie or anything close was never in the question....I think I was 16 when I wore my last dress.

More recently I have been exploring my more masculine side...and bottom line is through that self discovery was that while I like being this tomboish mixture of female and male...I do not want to be male....

I think sort of like a sliding scale....we slip back and forth until we find a place on the spectrum of sex identity that suits our feelings in that moment....moments change and so does the scale...

I wonder if at times the need to identify as inherently male or female is not just ingrained programming that in society to fit in you have to be one or the other....instead of embracing who we want to be...even if that means being gender neutral or embracing of both our masculine and feminine spirits.

[intrigue_in916]

Kobi,thank you for this thread. Love the positivity, and insecurity. We all learn for one another. Im loving my journey.

[AtLast]

I am very proud to be a lesbian butch. This is truely my identity and sexuality. I am woman-identified. I also take pride in being a part of a B-F sub-culture that encoumpasses all identifications, gender and sexualities.

[Cin]

I don’t think I’ve ever felt internally estranged from my female self. I think outside forces conspired to keep me estranged from a female identity. I think borders are patrolled vigorously. I think there is a natural softening, a certain slippage if you will, around borders, around the edges of identities. These areas must be guarded stringently. There is fear, as there is with all borders, that something from the other side will escape across and morph what we know and change the face of our reality. As a society we have a lot invested in maintaining duality. Right or wrong the need appears to be to keep it simple. If you are not male then you are female. If you are not straight then you are gay. There isn’t a whole lot of room for expression outside of the box. And to keep it that way society sets up defenses along the edges of male and female to maintain the borders intact. Of course we have lots of expression outside of the box anyway because people naturally resist boxes unless they personally choose to sit in one. But I think that our infinite variety of expressions and identities often get confused by the seduction of duality. Identity and gender outside of male and female get lost in translation and is often co-opted without our consent by society’s narrow vision.

I’ve thought a lot about this stuff, struggled trying to understand it, understand me, see where I fit, how I fit. I always felt like I was female. I don’t think I ever wanted to be a guy. However, when I was a kid I wanted the freedom that came with being a boy. As I got older I wanted all the freedom that came from being male. I wanted not to have to worry that some creep was going to rape me. I wanted to have a better shot of walking around at night without being attacked. I wanted to be treated with respect and to have my girlfriend be treated with respect when we walked down the street together. I wanted some of those indulgent smiles that young love always gets from straight people. But I did not want to be a straight man.

As a kid I loved running around shirtless in warm weather. My mother put a stop to that by the time I was 6. Whenever I would complain to her that it was too hot to wear a shirt her answer was a halter top. I hated halter tops. I really wanted the freedom to be topless. And I hated looking like a girly girl.

I wanted to be free from needing to get all dressed up like a doll. I hated dresses. The worse day of the week for me was Sunday. Well, it’s kind of complicated to just say that straight out because there were quite a few years of my childhood that I didn’t live exclusively with my parents. The days I was not with my parents were my worse days period. But when I was home the worse day was Sunday because my mother did everything she could to get me in a dress. I complained, begged and pleaded with her to leave me in my jeans. I explained how I couldn’t have my guns strapped on correctly in a dress. But my mother wasn’t moved.

She spent years telling me the things that little girls didn’t do. I remember telling her once that she had to be mistaken because I was a girl and if I was doing it then clearly girls did do it after all.

There finally came a time when she gave up. At that point I believe she unconsciously stopped looking at me as female. My father was always happy to treat me like the son he never had. So now it was unanimous. I was a boy.

I didn’t want to be a boy really. But now I was subjected to the opposite type of coercion. Now if I had to get dressed up for some reason or other, I would get remarks like “what’s with the dress and the make-up you look like you’re in drag.” It was almost as if in order to fit into society’s gender narrative I had to now be seen as a guy. It seemed this was the only way people were comfortable. Okay, if you’re not a girl then you must be a guy. I didn’t want to be a guy. But I couldn’t seem to be a girl, at least not as defined by others.

Talk about feeling estranged from myself, at that time if I could have found some way to have my sex and gender match society’s definition of it, I would have done it. I would have asked to be made female. At least female as defined by the society I lived in. It was like I was one sex and the world insisted I was another because my actions didn’t align with their gender narrative. It was surreal. It still is sometimes. It’s kind of a mind fuck. Even finding enough clarity to explain the way it feels is difficult.

I remember feeling torn a lot trying to figure out exactly what I was. I mostly ignored my masculinity because to me I was a woman, just a woman who loved women, just a lesbian and yet it felt like that was always being negated. It never felt at anytime in my life that the world ever accepted me as a part of the definition of woman.

It’s odd looking back how woman and even lesbian were held just out of reach. But masculine, male, and/or butch were what defined me to others. And while they tried to deny my version of woman, the keepers of gender who decreed I failed miserably at female, thrust a male definition at me and then turned around and were angry at me as though masculinity was a prize I had stolen or a trick I had played when their guards were down. I was loathed for my masculinity in its female packaging. Like it was my idea to be male. So is it any wonder that I held on for dear life to my right to identify as woman, as female. It always felt I was on the verge of having my sex and gender stolen from me. I spent little time ever nurturing my masculinity. It was always about woman for me.

I don’t see this as an internal problem with my self identity but it feels as though I was estranged from myself. I realize it was society’s narrowly defined gender roles causing my estrangement. And it sounds simple when you say oh well, that’s just society’s definition of woman, you don’t have to buy into it. You can define it for yourself. And while that is true enough, you cannot define yourself for anyone else. So it turns out to be a very lonely definition indeed.

One can even say it’s society’s definition of lesbian that causes my alienation from mainstream lesbians. By defining lesbian exactly as someone like me, someone who is female but looks male, society made me a pyorrhea, a danger, the unwitting anarchist in a peaceful revolution. Lesbian is not made up mostly of women like me. Society’s inference that it is has made many lesbians suspicious of butch women. I can and do own lesbian as an identity but lesbian does not care so much to own me. I am a woman. I am a lesbian. I am a butch lesbian. But even in the margins there are margins. The margin that is defined within the margins.

I figured out that I could decide to just define myself however I choose. I can own woman and lesbian as well as masculine and have that mean whatever I wish. I can believe I have expanded gender roles to include me. But how does that actually work out? And can I own feminine at all and ever make it mine when people look at me and see male? Can I be feminine when every move I make, every wardrobe choice, every interest, every intimate interaction, even my very essence screams man to those who see gender in neat tight little packages labeled man or woman? It always felt to me that I was being told if you can’t be a woman the way a woman is supposed to be then you need to be a man. It tore me up. It made me turn my back on a very important and integral part of who I was. It made me dislike the male part of me even while I had no choice but to act exactly how I was, a masculine woman.

It seems to me the world hates masculine women and feminine men. They loathe them. More than anything else masculinity in a female package is taboo and worthy of disgust. As is femininity in a male package.

I spent so much of my life holding on tightly to my female self because it felt like it was always threatened. I felt like someone was always trying to take my feminine identity away from me. I fought so hard for this that I usually ignored my masculinity. It was just there. It was just who I was. But it was also the cause of my self-estrangement. I regarded it with contempt and distrust. Male bad/female good. It’s still such a part of my unconscious narrative.

I think my feminist ideals further complicated my estrangement from myself. I believed being a woman was the best part of who I was. Followed closely by being a lesbian and a feminist. The fact that my masculinity erased most of this in the eyes of others was difficult for me to negotiate. My feminism further alienated me from my masculinity. I don’t mean to say that I hold my feminism or feminism in general responsible for my feelings. Or that I would wish to be or ever will be anything other than a feminist. I just want to clarify that. I love being female, lesbian and feminist. These are the most important parts of who I am. But there is another part of who I am that always seemed most important to the world in general, while just a part of the whole for me. And that is my masculinity.

I remember when I discovered butch as an identity. That fit. I was a butch. I was a butch lesbian feminist. Finally I could be comfortable in my identity. However to everyone else I was still a wannabe man. Nothing really changed. Different day; same shit. I think that discovery affected me deeply because I began to see a pattern here. I looked at the term LGBT community that was being used frequently. I realized I actually couldn’t see myself reflected in totality within any of those. Then I figured maybe queer would define me best. But that didn’t seem to honor my woman lesbian feminist identity.

It’s been an interesting journey. I doubt it is even close to complete though. Identity is an ever evolving aspect of my humanity. Whether the actual identity changes or whether the language used for understanding shifts I cannot say. But I can say that for me, masculinity has always taken a back seat to woman in my understanding of myself. Yet, masculine as defined by society is such an integral part of who I am. Can I really understand myself if I relegate such an important piece of my identity to the back of my consciousness whenever possible? Actually one could easily say that masculine is the face I present to the world. Yet it is the part of me I least understand, the part I least want to understand. It seems a real loss. I think that is where the disconnect is for me. That is the self estrangement. But that estrangement was caused by society’s obsession to define me by what it termed my masculine behavior. And then to despise and loathe me for my insistence on preserving my identity as woman, thereby presenting to the world an example of the much hated female masculinity.

I think if anything got a raw deal it was my masculinity. I think my masculinity needs its day in the sun.

[Cin]

Just for the record in my above post that was supposed to read pariah. Not the gum disease.:readfineprint:

But I guess it works either way. Sort of.:|

[*Anya*]

Pre-ordered on Amazon, releasing the end of the month:


When We Were Outlaws (Paperback)
Jeanne Córdova

A sweeping memoir, a raw and intimate chronicle of a young activist torn between conflicting personal longings and political goals. When We Were Outlaws offers a rare view of the life of a radical lesbian during the early cultural struggle for gay rights, Women’s Liberation, and the New Left of the 1970s. 

Brash and ambitious, activist Jeanne Córdova is living with one woman and falling in love with another, but her passionate beliefs tell her that her first duty is “to the revolution” –to change the world and end discrimination against gays and lesbians. Trying to compartmentalize her sexual life, she becomes an investigative reporter for the famous, underground L.A. Free Press and finds herself involved with covering the Weather Underground, Angela Davis; exposing neo-Nazi bomber Captain Joe Tomassi, and befriending Emily Harris of the Symbionese Liberation Army. At the same time she is creating what will be the center of her revolutionary lesbian world: her own newsmagazine, The Lesbian Tide, destined to become the voice of the national lesbian feminist movement.

By turns provocative and daringly honest, Cordova renders emblematic scenes of the era—ranging from strike protests to utopian music festivals, to underground meetings with radical fugitives—with period detail and evocative characters. For those who came of age in the ‘70s, and for those who weren’t around but still ask ‘What was it like?’ –Outlaws takes you back to re-live it. It also offers insights about ethics, decision making and strategy, still relevant today.

With an introduction by renowned lesbian historian Lillian Faderman, When We Were Outlaws paints a vivid portrait of activism and the search for self-identity, set against the turbulent landscape of multiple struggles for social change that swept hundreds of thousands of Americans into the streets.
About the Author
Cordova’s previous books include Kicking the Habit, A Lesbian Nun Story, and Sexism; It’s a Nasty Affair. Her essays appear in numerous anthologies such as Persistent Desire; A Femme Butch Reader, and Love, West Hollywood.
   Product Details
Publisher: Spinsters Ink 
Release date: November 29, 2011
Language: English
Number of Pages: 456 pages 
ISBN-10: 1935226517
ISBN-13: 978-1935226512 ...

[girl_dee]

I am not a butch but I am with one.

She is 100% butch and woman. She is what I feel so very comfortable with.We all have our place and journeys but for "me", I am most comfortable being with someone who is happy in her own skin, her own butch skin. She has no desire to be a "he" or transition, and I love that about her.

Yes lets hear it for the OS Butches, I love em!

[OS Butch]

I am not a butch but I am with one.

She is 100% butch and woman. She is what I feel so very comfortable with.We all have our place and journeys but for "me", I am most comfortable being with someone who is happy in her own skin, her own butch skin. She has no desire to be a "he" or transition, and I love that about her.

Yes lets hear it for the OS Butches, I love em!

At the reunion someone thought the OS meant I was a computer geek, as in Operating System! LOL! It is nice to know we are appreciated:)

[Jett]

This is a subject very near and dear right now. Something of what I went through recently, if you can call a period of two years recent. Now I grew up with a high degree of "butch/masculine" tendencies, there is no doubt to that, it was a natural part of my life from day one, likes, dislikes, behaviors, mannerisms... a natural part of my personal progression, direction and growth, still is.

What's not natural, is the stuff you "learn" later, unwanted life events that change you and leave a bit of sludge each time they touch you, that build up and bog down your movement... and pretty soon you're lurching through life with all this crap you carry. It can be a personal trauma/s, or something you see or even when you're young it can be just a word/s, cuts just deep enough to leave a barely visible scar you didn't even see until much later when actually looking.

I think for me, this all kind of bubbled up slowly and I felt like I was in a constant struggle to define internally my gender "identity" for myself, reconcile the pieces that felt fragmented but every time I claimed the female/woman "piece" I literally cringed... pulled back and looked for "something" else, something that didn't make me cringe so much. Through the years, the conglomerate of directions I went with identity, spoke more accurately about who I was than any one days/years idea/feeling or paragraph. I'm very fluid, to that there is no doubt... so one day I had to ask myself- wtf am I doing? Why am I cringing? I didn't always feel this way, I had to look back to things, events in my life that occurred between who I was when I was proud and embraced of every part of me... and forward to who I had become... and exactly how I had learned to be ashamed and hide "it".

I really have no desire to talk right now about the particular events and things, only that I think it's sooo f*cking critical to living a happy, authentic life, that we r-e-a-l-l-y do examine ourselves, those cringes in particular, with a very critical eye. For myself it was a very long process, I desired strongly to experience and express what I knew I was strong and beautiful inside me but always did a smack-down when I felt that desire. You can't be doing that and be truly happy, you can't love yourself while you are simultaneously hating on parts of you. It's taken literally years... to let the little bits of those parts of me in one at a time, inside and outer things... one at a time... going forward slowly, even having to back up a bit at the end until I reached a place of balance and comfort.

I didn't take a different path then was meant for me, just a more difficult trek on that path when trying desperately to side step parts of it. I have deep regrets, I spent over 2 decades progressively stifling and hating on an amazing and beautiful part of myself, maybe the most beautiful complete part even. I feel like I missed so much that I didn't allow myself, moments, experiences... but quite honestly I can't blame myself... for me personally there's just no way until I'd moved far enough along to look back and see the whole picture. I am just extremely grateful I've reached this place of healing and have a new chance... I think many females/women of all types never do.

[rustedrims]

After reading the posts things came up in my memory of when i was a kid..Things i havent thought of in many-many years..I am going to get my thoughts together and i will be back in here..
My counselor told me a long time ago when something is bothering me write it down..I was seeing her because of my lifestyle and trouble with my girlfriend at the time..We can learn alot about ourselves from other people..Think this will bring back the memories of the lifestyle my mom was forcing me to live as a kid..Fought with her the whole time..Hated everything about it..!!!..Iwill be back..

s..

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

I am reading this thread again, and am almost crying. The words, the feelings, the thoughts, the mosaic being painted, are so very rich and beautiful.

I am a lesbian. I came out to the outside world at a late age (49), but always had an "inkling" that I was different somehow. Didn't feel right in my skin. Didn't feel that I could/should think/feel/BE.

I knew deep down, in my most private inside-voice, that I was drawn to the more butch-looking woman. Early on, when I was married and living a heterosexual-looking life, I was confused by those thoughts. I certainly didn't share them with anyone!

Later on, when I began my arduous journey to MY truth, those thoughts, those yearnings, for butch women made more sense, they became more "ok" to me, and I began to internally celebrate them, you know?

When I did come out, my partners were all butch LESBIANS. All women-identified. All masculine-mannered in looks and aura.

I got on the BFP site, and figured I was finally HOME. Someplace that I could learn to celebrate the femme-ness in me, and find my counterpoint, my yang (or ying).

Since then I have met many here, varied in their identifying. Yeah, I have even "crushed" on some. *grin* Some have been female-identifying butches, and some have been more male-ID'ing. I am still learning about the differences in the two. The thought that one could be actually FLUID in their ID'ing had never occurred to me either!

All I know is I want/need to find MY counterpoint when the time comes. I have settled all of my life, and cannot/will not again.

Bravo and kudos to all the butches on this site, for your bravery in finding and celebrating and claiming your own TRUTH, whatever that may be.

May we ALL come home to ourselves!

[AtLast]

This is a subject very near and dear right now. Something of what I went through recently, if you can call a period of two years recent. Now I grew up with a high degree of "butch/masculine" tendencies, there is no doubt to that, it was a natural part of my life from day one, likes, dislikes, behaviors, mannerisms... a natural part of my personal progression, direction and growth, still is.

What's not natural, is the stuff you "learn" later, unwanted life events that change you and leave a bit of sludge each time they touch you, that build up and bog down your movement... and pretty soon you're lurching through life with all this crap you carry. It can be a personal trauma/s, or something you see or even when you're young it can be just a word/s, cuts just deep enough to leave a barely visible scar you didn't even see until much later when actually looking.

I think for me, this all kind of bubbled up slowly and I felt like I was in a constant struggle to define internally my gender "identity" for myself, reconcile the pieces that felt fragmented but every time I claimed the female/woman "piece" I literally cringed... pulled back and looked for "something" else, something that didn't make me cringe so much. Through the years, the conglomerate of directions I went with identity, spoke more accurately about who I was than any one days/years idea/feeling or paragraph. I'm very fluid, to that there is no doubt... so one day I had to ask myself- wtf am I doing? Why am I cringing? I didn't always feel this way, I had to look back to things, events in my life that occurred between who I was when I was proud and embraced of every part of me... and forward to who I had become... and exactly how I had learned to be ashamed and hide "it".

I really have no desire to talk right now about the particular events and things, only that I think it's sooo f*cking critical to living a happy, authentic life, that we r-e-a-l-l-y do examine ourselves, those cringes in particular, with a very critical eye. For myself it was a very long process, I desired strongly to experience and express what I knew I was strong and beautiful inside me but always did a smack-down when I felt that desire. You can't be doing that and be truly happy, you can't love yourself while you are simultaneously hating on parts of you. It's taken literally years... to let the little bits of those parts of me in one at a time, inside and outer things... one at a time... going forward slowly, even having to back up a bit at the end until I reached a place of balance and comfort.

I didn't take a different path then was meant for me, just a more difficult trek on that path when trying desperately to side step parts of it. I have deep regrets, I spent over 2 decades progressively stifling and hating on an amazing and beautiful part of myself, maybe the most beautiful complete part even. I feel like I missed so much that I didn't allow myself, moments, experiences... but quite honestly I can't blame myself... for me personally there's just no way until I'd moved far enough along to look back and see the whole picture. I am just extremely grateful I've reached this place of healing and have a new chance... I think many females/women of all types never do.

And I am grateful for this post.

[bright_arrow]

At the reunion someone thought the OS meant I was a computer geek, as in Operating System! LOL! It is nice to know we are appreciated:)


So then one would question.. Are you a Windows OS Butch? And if that is the case, Windows Vista or Windows 7 or what ~ !

Inquiring minds want to know!

[AtLast]

I'm an old fart. LOL, just is fact. It has been an interesting journey as someone that has spent a working and family life in positions of "authority" or key decision maker (teacher/prof, therapist, administrator, business owner, parent, conservator/payee, parent, care-taker, executor, etc.) and really be the recipient of so many teachings of the meaning of butch from many far younger.

Yes, there are friends from this site that are my age too that have helped with my really not finding my personal attainment of the graces of being a butch too. Mainly, I just feel huge gratitude for really kind of stumbling on to this online community (started in '08 on the old site) even though my late partner had been part of the way back when B-F chatroom which led to the first B-F oriented website. I did not join when she was alive as I felt this was her space.

I can laugh at myself now because I have learned so much from not only other butches but Transmen and their journeys as well as femmes and Transwomen and their challenges and thoughts on this truly awesome (as in how the term used to be used) dynamic and winding narrative through many, many decades. Younger members have given me the insight of their more contemporary insights concerning what it means to be queer.

I am a lucky butch woman in finding this community- I never loose sight of this.

Just some random thoughts.... and a thank you.

[rustedrims]

Thanks Kobi for this thread..I have thought of some things that i never said out loud or told anyone because i didnt think they would understand..This is where i need to be and be understood..

First thing that came to my mind is those curls my mom put in my hair when i was little..She would twist my hair so tight that it hurt..Itold her and she would say quit moving your head and grinding her teeth to get the next one tighter..Then comes those bobi pins..She used my tender scalp for guidence to put them in a cross patern..I swear sometimes she made my head bleed..Had to leave them in all night and it was painfull to sleep..Had to sleep half on my face and half on my cheek..Getting them out was just as bad..She would pull them out like she was racing someone..My hair got cought and she pulled them till they came loose..Couldnt get a brush or comb through it..Those curls were tighter than a poodles..If i can say I Fucking Hated That..!!..She said it looked so cute..No it didnt..

My sister always told me to walk like a girl..I told her i walk like me..There was nothing wrong with the way i walk and there still isnt..I get where i need to go..

I have 2 older sisters and we each had 1 dress of our own..We sometimes would trade dresses so we didnt have to wear the same one all the time..Growing up with an alcoholic father we didnt get much but he got drunk..Hated wearing a dress..Iwould try to make some kind of deal with mom so i didnt have to wear one..Sometimes it worked but most times it didnt..

Think the first time i noticed i was different i was in like 3rd grade..There was a girl i liked and i realized i felt more comfortable around her in my jeans..Would fight with mom not to wear dresses to school..Itold her i couldnt go down the slide at recess..That kinda worked..At Christmas time i would always pick out boys pants insted of dresses..Picked out a few trucks to..As i got older i was getting a few boy things i asked for..

Ok now i am older and able to make decisions for myself..
Got a good paying job and worked at keeping it..Iwould always take the more physcial jobs..After time i got the reputation of doing the most difficult tasks that the girlie girls would step back from..Still like working like that..Now it is expected of me to do my 110% and do more than the Bio Men {and i do}..The guys at work treat me like {One of The Guys} and not a "girl"..I am finally fitting in but not getting to comfortable..There is always someone that pops out of no where to remind me of who and what i am..Some days are kinda tough but few and far between thankfully..I do have good people around me now but it wasnt easy..Today i am going out to Dinner with a guy at work..It is like 2 fellas getting together..Going to his house to get carpet to take to a friends house..He will bitch about his girlfriend..I know the story dont want to hear it again but he is a good guy..Been friends a very long time..When the Ladies at work have any kind of troubles they come to me for help..Kinda run my mouth and things get changed sometimes..They accept me for me and ask no questions..

With all that being said...
After alot of time has passed living here and my job {almost 29 years} people leave me alone and for the most part accept who i am..I still find myself hiding from me and trying to be someone i am not..Guess that comes from not being 100% out..I am a Butch Woman do i really need to tell you..??..My mom did out me in church..Iwas very upset with her and expressed my feeling on that..Most of those people do accept me and it wasnt a surprise when she said it..No one treats me any different..Guess they accept me the way i am..After some time has past in a small way i do feel some relief that she did out me..In my mind i dont have to hide from me when i am around them..

Bottom line i need to accept me the way i am because the people i am around the most have at work and in my neighborhood my family to..

Thank-you for reading..
Sheila..

[Kobi]

Thanks Kobi for this thread..I have thought of some things that i never said out loud or told anyone because i didnt think they would understand..This is where i need to be and be understood..

First thing that came to my mind is those curls my mom put in my hair when i was little..She would twist my hair so tight that it hurt..Itold her and she would say quit moving your head and grinding her teeth to get the next one tighter..Then comes those bobi pins..She used my tender scalp for guidence to put them in a cross patern..I swear sometimes she made my head bleed..Had to leave them in all night and it was painfull to sleep..Had to sleep half on my face and half on my cheek..Getting them out was just as bad..She would pull them out like she was racing someone..My hair got cought and she pulled them till they came loose..Couldnt get a brush or comb through it..Those curls were tighter than a poodles..If i can say I Fucking Hated That..!!..She said it looked so cute..No it didnt..

My sister always told me to walk like a girl..I told her i walk like me..There was nothing wrong with the way i walk and there still isnt..I get where i need to go..

I have 2 older sisters and we each had 1 dress of our own..We sometimes would trade dresses so we didnt have to wear the same one all the time..Growing up with an alcoholic father we didnt get much but he got drunk..Hated wearing a dress..Iwould try to make some kind of deal with mom so i didnt have to wear one..Sometimes it worked but most times it didnt..

Think the first time i noticed i was different i was in like 3rd grade..There was a girl i liked and i realized i felt more comfortable around her in my jeans..Would fight with mom not to wear dresses to school..Itold her i couldnt go down the slide at recess..That kinda worked..At Christmas time i would always pick out boys pants insted of dresses..Picked out a few trucks to..As i got older i was getting a few boy things i asked for..

Ok now i am older and able to make decisions for myself..
Got a good paying job and worked at keeping it..Iwould always take the more physcial jobs..After time i got the reputation of doing the most difficult tasks that the girlie girls would step back from..Still like working like that..Now it is expected of me to do my 110% and do more than the Bio Men {and i do}..The guys at work treat me like {One of The Guys} and not a "girl"..I am finally fitting in but not getting to comfortable..There is always someone that pops out of no where to remind me of who and what i am..Some days are kinda tough but few and far between thankfully..I do have good people around me now but it wasnt easy..Today i am going out to Dinner with a guy at work..It is like 2 fellas getting together..Going to his house to get carpet to take to a friends house..He will bitch about his girlfriend..I know the story dont want to hear it again but he is a good guy..Been friends a very long time..When the Ladies at work have any kind of troubles they come to me for help..Kinda run my mouth and things get changed sometimes..They accept me for me and ask no questions..

With all that being said...
After alot of time has passed living here and my job {almost 29 years} people leave me alone and for the most part accept who i am..I still find myself hiding from me and trying to be someone i am not..Guess that comes from not being 100% out..I am a Butch Woman do i really need to tell you..??..My mom did out me in church..Iwas very upset with her and expressed my feeling on that..Most of those people do accept me and it wasnt a surprise when she said it..No one treats me any different..Guess they accept me the way i am..After some time has past in a small way i do feel some relief that she did out me..In my mind i dont have to hide from me when i am around them..

Bottom line i need to accept me the way i am because the people i am around the most have at work and in my neighborhood my family to..

Thank-you for reading..
Sheila..



Sheila, thank you for sharing this.

You had the bobbi pins, I had the molded plastic hot rollers. Use to call them my crown of thorns.

I still remember the day in the 3rd grade when I was sent off to walk to school in a white, sleeveless dress with a huge (I mean HUGE) purple tulip pocket. I was absolutely mortified.

Looking back, I wonder what our parents were thinking then and sometimes even now. Raising your child to "fit in" was the norm and the goal. Expressing ones individuality and differences was frowned on and contrary to contemporary society.

Did they view our "differentness" as a personal failure of theirs? Their failure as a parent? Were they as confused by our differentness as we were by their insistence we be a certain way? Were they just doing what they thought was right by us, for us? Were they so blinded by what was, that they couldnt see what might be possible for lil girls? Did they even know or could they know that this dichotomy between who they wanted us to be and who we were would stick with us for a lifetime?

It was a different time. Options were so limited. Knowledge was so limited.

Tricky stuff. Even now, when we are able to forge our own way in the world in a society more accepting of differences and possibilities, when we are around people like us who werent part of the mold, it is sometimes hard to even give ourselves permission to just be who we are and be proud of the person we are. Those voices, those experiences, that history is as much a part of us as the person we have come to be in spite of them.

Bottom line? We all want to be seen for and as the unique person we are. We want to be accepted and respected for it. We want to feel we are ok, know we are ok, have others treat us like we are ok. Cuz we are ok. And we want to be at peace with ourselves and the world.

Sometimes I wonder if we realize just how strong we were and are to have perservered for so long. I wonder if we realize how resilient, how courageous, how determined we are and were to even make it this far. We survived a long time in less than hospitable environments and yet we still thrived. Pretty special and amazing stuff.

Maybe it is time to give ourselves permission to be just be who we are and be comfortable with it. Life should be a journey, a learning experience, a happy thing not an uphill battle every step of the way.

Never forget from whence you came. It made you the person you are today. But, maybe, it is time to live, love, enjoy, experience, evolve, explore, accept, heal, and be who you are. Tis the greatest gift one can give themselves.

[Rockinonahigh]

Needles to say this has been a long journey to where I am now.In the beganing it was me just being a over grown tomboy to not being in the least anything that resembled my girlie cousins wich irked mom to no end.Mom and I fougth lots over me not being who she wanted me to be.Wich is like my very femme cousins who were the apple of theire parrents eyes.I sit now at this age and just wonder what or why I was expected to be like every one else,I mean arent we suposed to be individual people with diffreent outlooks on life,expectations,wants and needs.Once one of my cousins told me she use to envy me cause I stayed true to myself,I told her it came with a huge price that she benefited from cause mom always compaired me to her and how I was lacking in being what I should have been.U c my cousin T was miss.louisisna way back in the day,I was and am still proud of her cause geting to the title wasnt easy.For most of my life I have felt way less than because of my familys treatment of me.One beign the queer of the family was the worst thing I could do..nothing was worse..truly.I still have scars mostly emotionaly because of what happened,im prolly always going to have them even tho I know its all water under the bridge now,I have managed to work my way thrue most of it but it never will just not be part of me.Mostly the abandonment issue pops out when I dont want it too but I deal with it as best as I can,the am I good enough to have people really accept me or not,is still in the back of my mind a lot.My way of dealing with all this is "either it works or it dont" is all I can do as I now realise peopel come into ly life and out of it so I dont expect them to stay or not..the toxic folks who think im desperat enought to put up with them get droped like a hot potato as it goes to my way of keeping sanity and wellbeing strong and healthy.

[AtLast]

I don't really fit into the OSOF paradigm as a lesbian butch. I know that this distinction is often atributed to us in general, but, there are many things that as an individual, I don't align with in terms of gender roles. LOL, perhaps this is part of my California state of mind, I don't know. Or, maybe I am just a multitude of non-binary based stereotypes as a lesbian butch.

On the other hand, I always enjoy meeting other lesbian butches and listen to their experiences. This always makes me think about our shared marginalization growing up and just not fitting into the girl thing, yet knowing we are absolutely female. There go those roles again!

So strange that even femmes have been marginalized concerning their feminity in terms of what is socially acceptable. For example, their attraction to butches. How many times have we heard their stories of non-acceptance about this? And not just via the straight world.

I am so grateful for a space like this (the thread as well as the Planet in general) where we can all speak of our experiences. Mainly, I realize that don't have to fit into one, strict definition of what a butch is. Whew!

[rustedrims]

Kobi once again Thank-you for this amazing thread..

I just re-read what i wrote in this Thread and still felt something inside sturring around a little..Think it is mostly anger from my mom making me into what she thought i should be to save herself from imbarresment [spelling?] in her future..She just did that girlie stuff to me and not my 2 older sisters..Guess they were normal..

Kobi i also re-read your reply to my Post and that got a little sturring in me to..I think that was a little anger also..I couldnt have wrote that any better than the words you chose..I think that maybe the Adults in our lives are hiding behind our "flaws" so theirs are not so noticeable..Our "flaws" are being different than them..I asked my mom when she was born if she was given a check-list of the kind of lifestyle she wanted to live..??..She just looked at me..Itold her i wasnt given one and if i was why would i pick this lifestyle..??..People make fun of you and constant comments by people you know and dont know..Why would anyone pick this life..?..

I dont mean to offend anyone by my next comment and am sorry if i do..
A conversation with my mom turned to the Bible once..I think i was a little wound up that day..I said a bunch of Men got together and wrote down rules to live by..Who said they were right.??..Well they must be right because they are Men and ya gotta do what they say..Right..??..They were all sitting around drinking wine to..Do ya get what i am trying to say..??..Alot of the time i have trouble with male authiority and question it often in my work place..Probly should stop there..

I was thinking about having my mom read what i wrote and the comments but what would change now..Probly get into something i dont want to deal with..That part of my life is over anyway so why bring it up now..I get along with her now and she is very accepting of my lifestyle..She tries to hard to be accepting and sometimes it comes across as fake..That i walk away from..Think she is trying cancel out the times when i was a kid when she wasnt there to make herself feel better now..I still remember when us kids were out playing she would wash the kitchen floor and lock the door so we couldnt come in even when we had to use the bathroom..Had to wait for the floor to dry..Another excuse was that we let in to many flies..Stupid as it is i do remember..I just want to be me and feel comfortable doing it..Thats it..

Thanks for reading again..
Sheila..

[AtLast]

Just thinking about how much my life has been enriched over the last few years simply by finding and interacting in this very community. I have found such pride in being a lesbian butch through the thoughts, actions, friendships, and sharing of our range of experiences (good and bad) right here.

[rustedrims]

Something happened at work the other night that completely cought me by surprise..
My boss pulled me off my regular job and told me to do something else..He said i know you arent going to get 400 so get as close as you can..The regular forklift guy had the night off and there was a girl taking his place..She knows what to do but might be a little slow..I told the boss i would talk to her to tell her my idea of getting those parts out..He started walking away then stopped and yelled back to me HEY NO FLURTING.!!!.I looked up then at him smiled and said NO WAY..!!!..Kinda funny..Things like that are happening to me a little at a time..Ya know after all these years of fighting with myself to be "normal" maybe it is time for me to relax and be who i am..I am a Gay Woman that enjoys the company of a pretty lady..Oh yeah she did keep up with me and i did get those parts out and was done an hour early..

s..

[fever]

You must be presenting a more confident, sassy ego at work.

You tell a good story. More please........lol

[istolurboxers38]

I am a femme sort of. I am sort of a redneck femme as my one friend put it. I love my high heels and makeup. I like to be sexy even though I dont feel it. The main difference is I go out in jeans and t shirts can use a chainsaw, cut wood, get dirty, garden, and play football with the boys. I dont see why there needs to be catagories because I dont fit into one. Yes I lean more towards the butches but I have the worst luck in relationships anyways. To me I say be who you want and how you feel for that day. If you love yourself then the person you choose to be with should love you for you too. These are just my thoughts DJ

[ButchKnight]

feels good to be back and reconnect with old friends and meet new ones
Lesbian Butch and Proud

BK

[fever]

I am glad you are "home" too. It has been a very challenging time for you, dear BK. I hope your heart is healing, and I also hope we connect on the phone soon. What are your hours at school?

(and, you are still my favourite surrogate daddy who helps femmes who don't know how to mix drinks, all while wearing a leather vest and pj's)

hugs

[JustBeingMe]

I haven't been online in a very long time, but Kobi, your thread just popped out there for me.....great thread to discuss things. I will definately have to remember to come back and post something before my visit with my family here in Austin is over. I have no internet where I live...... huge wine from me. LOL
Anyway, I think your thread here is a really good one. I always have enjoyed your posts Kobi, they have true meaning and depth to them.......keep keeping it real my friend.

[JustBeingMe]

I am a femme sort of. I am sort of a redneck femme as my one friend put it. I love my high heels and makeup. I like to be sexy even though I dont feel it. The main difference is I go out in jeans and t shirts can use a chainsaw, cut wood, get dirty, garden, and play football with the boys. I dont see why there needs to be catagories because I dont fit into one. Yes I lean more towards the butches but I have the worst luck in relationships anyways. To me I say be who you want and how you feel for that day. If you love yourself then the person you choose to be with should love you for you too. These are just my thoughts DJ

Hon, all that and a bucket of chicken too !! It only makes you a very self sufficient woman to be able to do all those things. And there is NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!! And what a cute screen name ta boot!!

[*Anya*]

**Bumping this thread**

[*Anya*]

Pre-ordered on Amazon, releasing the end of the month:


When We Were Outlaws (Paperback)
Jeanne Córdova

A sweeping memoir, a raw and intimate chronicle of a young activist torn between conflicting personal longings and political goals. When We Were Outlaws offers a rare view of the life of a radical lesbian during the early cultural struggle for gay rights, Women’s Liberation, and the New Left of the 1970s. 

Brash and ambitious, activist Jeanne Córdova is living with one woman and falling in love with another, but her passionate beliefs tell her that her first duty is “to the revolution” –to change the world and end discrimination against gays and lesbians. Trying to compartmentalize her sexual life, she becomes an investigative reporter for the famous, underground L.A. Free Press and finds herself involved with covering the Weather Underground, Angela Davis; exposing neo-Nazi bomber Captain Joe Tomassi, and befriending Emily Harris of the Symbionese Liberation Army. At the same time she is creating what will be the center of her revolutionary lesbian world: her own newsmagazine, The Lesbian Tide, destined to become the voice of the national lesbian feminist movement.

By turns provocative and daringly honest, Cordova renders emblematic scenes of the era—ranging from strike protests to utopian music festivals, to underground meetings with radical fugitives—with period detail and evocative characters. For those who came of age in the ‘70s, and for those who weren’t around but still ask ‘What was it like?’ –Outlaws takes you back to re-live it. It also offers insights about ethics, decision making and strategy, still relevant today.
About the Author
Cordova’s previous books include Kicking the Habit, A Lesbian Nun Story, and Sexism; It’s a Nasty Affair. Her essays appear in numerous anthologies such as Persistent Desire; A Femme Butch Reader, and Love, West Hollywood.
  
Publisher: Spinsters Ink 
Release date: November 29, 2011
Language: English
Number of Pages: 456 pages 
ISBN-10: 1935226517
ISBN-13: 978-1935226512 ...

I did get this book when it came out and I really loved it. It was as though I was reliving those times and events.

Well-written and some hot sex for good measure!

It is worth looking for and is on Amazon, in paperback. It might even be in Kindle by now.

[CharmingButch25]

I stumbled across this thread because I could'nt sleep and I am glad I did.
I currently am struggling with who exactly I am, I have always from a young age been more comfortable in boys clothing,having a boys haircut, from a small age of course my mom would force me into dresses and do my hair and all that fuss I HATE it with a passion. I didnt want to be a girly girl but at the same time I didnt want to be a boy. We would fight constantly about my hair or having to wear a dress. I knew from a very young age I was a lesbian that part I knew for sure but I didnt know exactly what that meant, I came out to my mom when I was 11 and when I was finally allowed to dress myself and decide how to cut my hair, I went with a military cut, my mom was devastated all my golden curls as she calls them were gone. I still keep my hair short and I am most comfortable in a pair of guys jeans and a hoodie. Nothing about me is femme,except part of my personality. I have always prefered being called Hy or Hym but I know I dont want to actually be a He or a Him. I get irratated when I get confused in womens bathrooms and actualy after a terrible event that happened in one I wont go in alone, I am too scared. I have always had the ultra femme sister who I feel my mom loved more than me, was happier with than she was me.Anyway I guess im kind of rambling. When On a date I do the gentleman thing and I get the doors for her, I pay, I do what society expects of a male on a date.And at first in all of my relationships I am the tough butch, the one she can turn to and know its all okay, but over a period of time , it kinda disapears and I dont know if its because of my illness but I start to need her more,she becomes the tough rock that I once was for her. Dont get me wrong at the end of the day she knows she will always find comfort in my strong arms... BUT so what does this leave me, A butch or a femme? I have always had to chose either one, and I go with butch because I feel thats who I AM inside. I havent worn a dress since I was 10 and was able to give it up, but i still have that need of a woman,the need to be comforted sometimes.I guess I will continue the struggle until I find out who I really am wheather it be butch or just a really manly femme, Any advice on how to figure this one out? My relationship started our very happy, me being the butch,her the femme and now she jokes (even though we broke up) she jokes that I was just not butch enough, that at first I pretended to be butch but it disapeard about 8 months in, (of course thats when I found out I was sick) but still she said I turned into the whinniest of femmes and thats not what she wanted, yet I still have the very butch domme daddy side, so where do I go next? How do I figure out WHO I AM? Any advice would be great and hope no one gets angry at this post I am not trying to upset anyone just find my place in this world....

[BullDog]

I go with butch because I feel thats who I AM inside.

If you feel from within that you are butch, then you are butch.

No one can tell you any different and no one can take that away from you no matter what they say or how they try to belittle you.

I had an ex who would gush and gush about how very butch I was. Then when she was mad she would try to tell me I wasn't a "real butch." I looked her straight in the eye and told her, "I am butch and you can't take that away from me. No one can."

You can be a strong person (butches are not the only people who are strong) and still have the need or desire to be comforted from time to time. All people have this need.

You don't have to follow any stereotypes about butches do this and butches don't do that, and no one can tell you whether you are butch or "butch enough." No one. Only you can decide that.

[Ginger]

If you feel from within that you are butch, then you are butch.

No one can tell you any different and no one can take that away from you no matter what they say or how they try to belittle you.

I had an ex who would gush and gush about how very butch I was. Then when she was mad she would try to tell me I wasn't a "real butch." I looked her straight in the eye and told her, "I am butch and you can't take that away from me. No one can."

You can be a strong person (butches are not the only people who are strong) and still have the need or desire to be comforted from time to time. All people have this need.

You don't have to follow any stereotypes about butches do this and butches don't do that, and no one can tell you whether you are butch or "butch enough." No one. Only you can decide that.


Everything you're saying makes so much sense, but my hunch is that you didn't learn these things overnight, that they are hard-won truths, and it's good you're sharing them.

[rustedrims]

I think you are looking in the wrong direction.
You are who you are and that is it.Dont try to change yourself because someone says different.Be comfortable with who you are.
My opinion is you are getting the wrong femme.You need a femme with more flexable thoughts.It just might be that you need to be with a soft butch?Maybe? I dont mean to offend you its just what i see.
There is nothing wrong with you.Be yourself.

[*Anya*]

I stumbled across this thread because I could'nt sleep and I am glad I did.
I currently am struggling with who exactly I am, I have always from a young age been more comfortable in boys clothing,having a boys haircut, from a small age of course my mom would force me into dresses and do my hair and all that fuss I HATE it with a passion. I didnt want to be a girly girl but at the same time I didnt want to be a boy. We would fight constantly about my hair or having to wear a dress. I knew from a very young age I was a lesbian that part I knew for sure but I didnt know exactly what that meant, I came out to my mom when I was 11 and when I was finally allowed to dress myself and decide how to cut my hair, I went with a military cut, my mom was devastated all my golden curls as she calls them were gone. I still keep my hair short and I am most comfortable in a pair of guys jeans and a hoodie. Nothing about me is femme,except part of my personality. I have always prefered being called Hy or Hym but I know I dont want to actually be a He or a Him. I get irratated when I get confused in womens bathrooms and actualy after a terrible event that happened in one I wont go in alone, I am too scared. I have always had the ultra femme sister who I feel my mom loved more than me, was happier with than she was me.Anyway I guess im kind of rambling. When On a date I do the gentleman thing and I get the doors for her, I pay, I do what society expects of a male on a date.And at first in all of my relationships I am the tough butch, the one she can turn to and know its all okay, but over a period of time , it kinda disapears and I dont know if its because of my illness but I start to need her more,she becomes the tough rock that I once was for her. Dont get me wrong at the end of the day she knows she will always find comfort in my strong arms... BUT so what does this leave me, A butch or a femme? I have always had to chose either one, and I go with butch because I feel thats who I AM inside. I havent worn a dress since I was 10 and was able to give it up, but i still have that need of a woman,the need to be comforted sometimes.I guess I will continue the struggle until I find out who I really am wheather it be butch or just a really manly femme, Any advice on how to figure this one out? My relationship started our very happy, me being the butch,her the femme and now she jokes (even though we broke up) she jokes that I was just not butch enough, that at first I pretended to be butch but it disapeard about 8 months in, (of course thats when I found out I was sick) but still she said I turned into the whinniest of femmes and thats not what she wanted, yet I still have the very butch domme daddy side, so where do I go next? How do I figure out WHO I AM? Any advice would be great and hope no one gets angry at this post I am not trying to upset anyone just find my place in this world....

As Bulldog said so well, who you are inside, is who you are.

Your ex-girl-friend may have just become uncomfortable or scared about your illness. All of us are products of this sexist society! There is an expectation that bio men act like manly men (show no perceived weakness) and always be tough and strong.

I think lesbian/dyke butches, as well as transmen, have bought into this societal expectation. It is hard to escape it. It is on TV, movies and in books.

Women, including lesbian and queer femmes (and maybe even transwomen) also buy into the myth. Women may say they want a sensitive partner but when that partner shows some sensitivity or vulnerability, they just may not know how to deal with it (or they just do not want to deal with it).

All of this aside: you are who you are. Becoming ill, showing sensitivity or shedding some tears, does not change who you are. More than once I have read a post where a butch calls crying "my eyes were leaking", rather than admit to crying. Reading that always makes me want to cry, for feeling so sad for them to not allow themselves their humanness for fear others would think them not butch enough or because it did not fit with their own butch self-image.

You may indeed need to find a femme that accepts you with all of your butch and human attributes. It will never make you less of a butch to not be afraid to show all of you to another.

You feel butch? You are therefore, butch.

This is my perspective as a humanist lesbian femme.

[Ginger]

I guess I will continue the struggle until I find out who I really am wheather it be butch or just a really manly femme, Any advice on how to figure this one out?



Dear Charming Butch,

You're well on your way to figuring this one out, by talking about it, and asking yourself the questions that need to be asked—even though you're the only one who can answer them.

I can't tell you what to do, but I can share my experience.

I've learned to just trust my attraction. I go where it leads me. It's led me to transguys, butch lesbians, and when I was younger, it led me to bio-men. I don't question it or deny it.

I've been consistently attracted to butch lesbians for like 20 years now, and I adore them. But if I felt attracted to a transguy or a femme, I wouldn't deny it or feel shame, and to hell with anyone who didn't approve of my attraction.

So... relax my friend. I don't know who will attract you next, but you will know when you feel it. And it's a good feeling! Enjoy it.

Scout

[Nadeest]

It simply leaves you human, is all. We all have a need to be comforted from time to time, butch and femme, male and female alike.

[TimilDeeps]

I give kudos to what's already been said to you, CB. It really is a matter of who YOU think you are and ultimately want to be.

You can label yourself as gelatinous goo if you like, still, it's up to you to decide how that goo walks in the world. It is not the province of anyone else to define that for you. Ever. Although social mores love to crawl under our skin and make us question.

Be what you want, what you need, and desire . . . you'll attract the same–--someone who knows who they are and what they want.

And enjoy the journey, it's a fuckton of fun!

[Toughy]

<snip> but i still have that need of a woman,the need to be comforted sometimes.I guess I will continue the struggle until I find out who I really am wheather it be butch or just a really manly femme <snip>

I just picked this out as the crux of what I hear you saying....

The need to be comforted has absolutely nada, none, zip, nothing to do with your gender. The need to be comforted is a human need, not just a femme need or a woman need. It is absolutely also a butch need and a man need.

edited to add: In all the really long term relationships I know of................both individuals comforted the other when needed.........

[StrongButch]

CB just be proud of who you are and its okay if you cant define it. Its whats in your heart that counts.

[girl_dee]

I just picked this out as the crux of what I hear you saying....

The need to be comforted has absolutely nada, none, zip, nothing to do with your gender. The need to be comforted is a human need, not just a femme need or a woman need. It is absolutely also a butch need and a man need.

edited to add: In all the really long term relationships I know of................both individuals comforted the other when needed.........

Yes! And it's when we allow someone into our really vulnerable space do we find a real partner in life.

[CherylNYC]

When On a date I do the gentleman thing and I get the doors for her, I pay, I do what society expects of a male on a date.And at first in all of my relationships I am the tough butch, the one she can turn to and know its all okay, but over a period of time , it kinda disapears and I dont know if its because of my illness but I start to need her more,she becomes the tough rock that I once was for her. ... BUT so what does this leave me, A butch or a femme? I have always had to chose either one, and I go with butch because I feel thats who I AM inside. I havent worn a dress since I was 10 and was able to give it up, but i still have that need of a woman,the need to be comforted sometimes.I guess I will continue the struggle until I find out who I really am wheather it be butch or just a really manly femme,... she jokes that I was just not butch enough, that at first I pretended to be butch but it disapeard about 8 months in, (of course thats when I found out I was sick) but still she said I turned into the whinniest of femmes and thats not what she wanted,....

Sorry to cut up your post, but I wanted to address the heart of your question, which is whether it's OK to call yourself a butch even though you want and need comfort and support from your partner. I am SO SORRY that you've been given the message that being properly masculine means cutting yourself off from your own human needs. I agree with Toughy and the rest of the posters here. Being butch has nothing to do with not needing comfort, and fuck-all to do with being the "tough rock".

I am SO SORRY that you've absorbed the message that being soft or needing support makes you a woman/femme, and that you can't be a butch if you require nurturing. I'm equally sorry that you believe that butch can't equal woman. Most butches do ID as women. It's OK for you to be a woman who is butch.

I am SO SORRY that you've been made to believe that needing nurturing makes you a manly femme, and means that you are no longer a proper butch. It's astonishing that needing comfort would cause someone to tell you that you're really "the whinniest of femmes". It's really f**ed up that your ex would have given you that message. It's insulting to you, and really insulting to femmes. I hope you can shut her voice out of your head, and I hope you can shut her down if she tears you down by suggesting that to you again in person.

[Licious]

Just came across this thread. Very interesting reading. *subscribes*

[CharmingButch25]

Thankl you so much to everyone for all the kind words

[CharmingButch25]

Thank you very much strong you especially have been helping me these past few days

[arcstriker]

Charmingbutch, you got a lot of excellent advice and thoughts here.

I am going to give you a different spin here. I have worked in male dominated fields all my working life. It is in my experience that males whine a lot, and when they are ill they are the biggest baby's! Those are masculine traits.

With that being said your fine, its your ex who is mistaken here.

[LipstickLola]

Hey CB, one of the things I loved most about my XGF is that there were times she NEEDED me to comfort her, she was vulnerable in our quiet times. When she felt better? She'd usually build me something special to show her love, words were difficult but we had an understaning.....I miss her!!

You are wonderful just being you!
Lola

[SaltyButch]

CB,

You have received some wonderful words of wisdom here, I stumbled across this thread and just had to comment. I am not a fan of labels, and yet our community thrives on them for whatever reason and to some degree I can understand it for if they hadn't been shown to me I may not have found my identity. The thing that is important is not how people define you, but how you define yourself as has been mentioned...I treat women the same way and it wasn't until I came to a site that displayed this dynamic that I realized I wasn't alone and that there was a name for "it". I struggled also with feeling that because I was "butch" I had to be the Rock of Gibraltar all the time, but it wasn't until I met the strongest yet most gentle femme that she taught me otherwise. It's all about people CB, it's about acceptance, it's about being who you are and the person who loves you realizing that you are a woman no matter how you identify and that all the emotional capacity you have is because you are the woman you are. I cry every time I watch Home Makeover Family Edition, that doesn't make me "femme", it makes me a person capable of feeling and I wouldn't change that for the world. So stand proudly, that you are a person who knows when to ask for help, because many don't and be true to yourself because no one else can be. The right person will recognize and accept you for the wonderful person and human being you are.

[lilapache]

CB,

You have received some wonderful words of wisdom here, I stumbled across this thread and just had to comment. I am not a fan of labels, and yet our community thrives on them for whatever reason and to some degree I can understand it for if they hadn't been shown to me I may not have found my identity. The thing that is important is not how people define you, but how you define yourself as has been mentioned...I treat women the same way and it wasn't until I came to a site that displayed this dynamic that I realized I wasn't alone and that there was a name for "it". I struggled also with feeling that because I was "butch" I had to be the Rock of Gibraltar all the time, but it wasn't until I met the strongest yet most gentle femme that she taught me otherwise. It's all about people CB, it's about acceptance, it's about being who you are and the person who loves you realizing that you are a woman no matter how you identify and that all the emotional capacity you have is because you are the woman you are. I cry every time I watch Home Makeover Family Edition, that doesn't make me "femme", it makes me a person capable of feeling and I wouldn't change that for the world. So stand proudly, that you are a person who knows when to ask for help, because many don't and be true to yourself because no one else can be. The right person will recognize and accept you for the wonderful person and human being you are.

:happyjump::goodscore:

applauds applauds!!!

[starryeyes]

My partner is 100% butch, 100% woman and 100% comfortable with herself and it is SO sexy!! I love everything about her. Her confidence, her swagger, her look, her philosophy on being a butch ID'd lesbian woman Daddy in the BF dynamic and her experiences. I wish she would post more in these threads because she could contribute excellent discussion points, but she doesnt get on BFP much :( I'll try to convince her to chime in.

[Two-spirit]

I'm a two spirit native american woman. This is my first time on this site and I enjoy reading all of your messages..

Even thou I knew I was different when I was in elementry school I did come out to my family when I was 13. I've always been a sports jock and even today I'm out and proud of who I am.

No matter where u stand in life and how you see yourself. I just hope of you are well and no matter what keep your head up ..

Little Feather

[Mel C.]

great thread. I'll be back when I have had more sleep

[dykeumentary]

*bump*

With Mickey or Minnie? (http://youtu.be/q_58qgPqHqk) this video about butch dykes in bathrooms:
http://youtu.be/q_58qgPqHqk

[dykeumentary]

Time for my annual post, apparently!

http://youtu.be/ky8tB-OSLzw

This one is a trailer for my new movie. It's about s butch dyke superhero (actually an action-figure of myself) who fights for accessibility justice.

[dykeumentary]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/e1eUIPCbKec" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

1987, Summer (https://youtu.be/e1eUIPCbKec)

Ahead of schedule for my annual post in this thread, yet right on time....
Here a video about what it was like to be a young butch in the late 1980s.
(Clearly I'm old becuase I can never figure out how to make the video show up in my posts!)