Butch Identities - Putting the Female in Female-Identified?

[Jackhammer]

It occurred to me a few days ago that I never used to distinguish myself as a "female-identified" Butch.

:: There has been such an evolution in how we talk about ourselves, I was wondering if any other Butches had always distinguished their identity with a gender prefix or not?

[Beau]

Jack, it was never the case for me in my real time experience, and has still mostly not been outside of a few offline functions from another online site.

Online, it seemed to suddenly become an issue just a few years ago. Before that, at least within b-f spaces, I was always assumed to be a female. It does seem to me that, again online, I'm mostly now assumed to be a male unless I present my ID outright.

[BullDog]

Quite honestly the only time I "identify" as female identified butch is online. In real life I am just butch. If I told my friends in Portland that I was female identified I know they would look at me like I was nuts. Most of the butches I know in real life do use female pronouns and consider themselves women, so really there has never been an issue. And we don't get the butches and femmes mixed up because we are all shes, lol. I do know some trans guys in Portland and they are he.

Thanks for the thread Jack!

[Surayna]

Quite honestly the only time I "identify" as female identified butch is online. In real life I am just butch. If I told my friends in Portland that I was female identified I know they would look at me like I was nuts. Most of the butches I know in real life do use female pronouns and consider themselves women, so really there has never been an issue. And we don't get the butches and femmes mixed up because we are all shes, lol. I do know some trans guys in Portland and they are he.

Thanks for the thread Jack!

I have had a real similar experience. Most butches I know offline don't use "female identified" and they do use female pronouns. The only place I have encountered any different has been online. It will be interesting to see other people's responses to this thread!

[Unndunn]

Same as above. I've only had to identify myself as a female ID'd butch online. It has never even come up in real time, except at an event in NYC when the organizer (a butch from FABU list) asked us all if we would mind sharing our ID as we went around the table to introduce ourselves. All of the butches there were female ID.

[Jackhammer]

I have discovered the Thank you button .... :formalbow:

[Jett]

It occurred to me a few days ago that I never used to distinguish myself as a "female-identified" Butch.

:: There has been such an evolution in how we talk about ourselves, I was wondering if any other Butches had always distinguished their identity with a gender prefix or not?
Nope... it's never come up real time. I never even thought of ---- id'd except online.

And in that... the period that I did refer to myself as "female identified" was simply in effort to express what I was not... it doesn't seem like an id to me so much even though I am without a doubt female.

Hell... along those exact same lines... I just said to a friend a few minutes ago... I don't identify as "A Butch Woman" per se because many do it in the "it's my Gender Identity" sense... that I believe many do feel it... ummm... differently or maybe more politically?

Like I said, I am all female and proud to be, but in the context of LGQTB etc. identities/labels/terms for all intents and purposes I'm pretty much a simple Stone Butch--- better maybe a Stone Bull.

Am I making sense... I have a feckin' half ass migraine.
lol
(if not just ask)

Metro

[BullDog]

Hey Metro, good thoughts. Actually butch woman for me personally is more political than it is gender. For me my gender is butch (which for me means queer/lesbian masculine female), but more and more I speak out as butch woman because for solidarity purposes it feels right for me-politically speaking- and also because I want to help expand the meaning of woman- what woman can be in this world. I am definitely female but to me that is biology not gender.

Also in terms of my politics in general, womens issues are extremely important to me, and I don't like to feel I am distancing myself in any way from other women- that is just my own issue for me personally. I think you can be a strong ally for women without identifying as one. The personal is political. :)

[Darth Denkay]

Wonderful thread!

Like many of you I never considered female or male identified butches until I became involved in online communities. When I "needed" to pick one for myself I picked male-identified because that reflects my strong masculine identification. But the reality is, I am female - biologically - with no intention of changing that (other than breast reduction but whatever). When it comes to being male or female identified, in terms of gender - I sorts feel like I'm on the fence. When given the chance I use masculine-identified, and not male-identified. I don't feel like a woman, but I also don't feel like a man. I am female-bodied. But my strongest identification is with masculine.

I hope I'm not derailing the thread - that is not my intention. I guess in the whole which are you (female or male gender), well I couldn't tell you. In any case, it makes me smile to see this thread - rock on!!!

[Boots13]

Sometimes I think it's easier to say what I'm not !

I'm not male, nor do I desire to be male, though I carry or
present a culmination of traits and qualities (now starts the shit storm)
that I am often mistakenly called sir.


So here's my unresolved crux - I don't usually bother to correct a
mistaken salutation. I don't tout my femaleness. And in NOT
pushing or defending being female, I feel like I've minimized my
abilities/accomplishments as a female bodied human being.


Its kind of a strange place to be.


I choose female id'
but I don't want to be called Mrs, or Ma'am, or "hey lady" as much
as I don't really want to be called Sir, or Syr or Mister by the general public.

I wrote a huge piece "in my last home" about queering maleness and
masculinity by just being present in male dominated places, doing male
dominated things (my job, my hobbies) and yet I don't want to be male
but I don't want to be feminine or wholly female either. I don't want to
change who I am, a female bodied human being, doing HER best to
bastardize masculinity, nicking away at patriarchy.


Have I thoroughly confused you yet?

[WILDCAT]

Will be back to write more, after family visit!

Thanks for starting this thread.

Enjoy your day everyone!

Love and hugs,
WILD

*Yes, this "butch" hugs... :gimmehug: (But, not if someone doesn't like it, I respect that space too.)

[Beau]

but I don't want to be feminine or wholly female either. I don't want to
change who I am, a female bodied human being, doing HER best to
bastardize masculinity, nicking away at patriarchy.


Have I thoroughly confused you yet?

Not even a little bit, Boots. For me, you've described what it means to be a butch. Thanks for adding your perspective. Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving, turkey! ;)

[Boots13]

Not even a little bit, Boots. For me, you've described what it means to be a butch. Thanks for adding your perspective.

Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving, turkey! ;)

Thank you for your acknowlegement, Beau.

And I do believe my mother may have muttered something similar upon having me...:raspberry::turkeyday:

[Jett]

Hey Metro, good thoughts. Actually butch woman for me personally is more political than it is gender. For me my gender is butch (which for me means queer/lesbian masculine female), but more and more I speak out as butch woman because for solidarity purposes it feels right for me-politically speaking- and also because I want to help expand the meaning of woman- what woman can be in this world. I am definitely female but to me that is biology not gender.

Also in terms of my politics in general, womens issues are extremely important to me, and I don't like to feel I am distancing myself in any way from other women- that is just my own issue for me personally. I think you can be a strong ally for women without identifying as one. The personal is political. :)

I hear you bully... and definitely get that and respect that.

For me... I don't feel like I am distancing myself from women- dropping the ball politically by not identifying as a "Butch Woman"... I think I'm just trying to identify in a way that most accurately describes the way I am. I think I'd be dropping the ball more if I didn't speak about injustices, or inequality... but my ID is just meant to represent me with the simplest terms

Similar to how yes, I did discard "female identified butch" from my ID vocabulary I didn't discard that I am proudly female... or discard female related issues. It's just redundant to me... perhaps it'd be better put "butch identified female"... but none the less it's not for me as an ID.

Stone Bull encompasses for me all the things I feel about my butch identity. The obvious, I am stone and have identified as stone butch for over 1/2 my life, and of recent feel a preference for the word Bull which is a more detailed descriptor of the type of butch... it's just my personal shorthand on BullDyke which to me indicates masculinity, queerness, strength in my femaleness... things that in just saying "butch" aren't a given (to me) and in no way guarantee.

So though I am Butch, Stone Bull hones it in and adds factors that are pertinent to me and it feels more personal and accurate to me.

Metro

[Andrew, Jr.]

I think how a butch wants to id is personal. There are so many different labels to consider. Plus as one grows and finds what is comfortable to himself, then everything falls into place. That is when you have the mindset that makes you comfi in your own skin. :beerbros: And you have the mind, body, soul, connection.

For myself, I id as male, and reject the female id totally. I cannot stand it. It is an insult and offensive to me. If someone wants to hurt me, that is the best way to do it. Use it against me, as it has been done. I think that life is hard enough, and the one thing that I would love more than anything else would be to have t. However, no doctor in the USA will ever give it to me. So, I have to deal with the cards dealt me.

The one thing I would like to see happen would be for the laws of the land to change. To allow those of us who are trans, to be able to have the same status as those of our brothers who are able to change their gender on their ss card, drivers license, and other documents to be changed without the money involved, or go thru the court system, and so on and on. Life is unfair. And what is even worse...is to never have the mind, body, soul connection. It is a birth defect. And if anyone wants to debate it, I would love to take them on. It is wrong, and everyone knows it.

:soapbox:

[QueenofQueens]

I think how a butch wants to id is personal. There are so many different labels to consider. Plus as one grows and finds what is comfortable to himself, then everything falls into place. That is when you have the mindset that makes you comfi in your own skin. :beerbros: And you have the mind, body, soul, connection.

For myself, I id as male, and reject the female id totally. I cannot stand it. It is an insult and offensive to me. If someone wants to hurt me, that is the best way to do it. Use it against me, as it has been done. I think that life is hard enough, and the one thing that I would love more than anything else would be to have t. However, no doctor in the USA will ever give it to me. So, I have to deal with the cards dealt me.

The one thing I would like to see happen would be for the laws of the land to change. To allow those of us who are trans, to be able to have the same status as those of our brothers who are able to change their gender on their ss card, drivers license, and other documents to be changed without the money involved, or go thru the court system, and so on and on. Life is unfair. And what is even worse...is to never have the mind, body, soul connection. It is a birth defect. And if anyone wants to debate it, I would love to take them on. It is wrong, and everyone knows it.

:soapbox:



Andrew, this thread was created by and for female id-ed butches to discuss their lives and gender expression, let's please keep the discussion on topic.


~QoQ

[Andrew, Jr.]

QofQ,

What did I say that was wrong? I am lost. I apologise if I offended anyone or hurt anyone's feelings. I did not mean too. Honest.

Andrew

[Linus]

QofQ,

What did I say that was wrong? I am lost. I apologise if I offended anyone or hurt anyone's feelings. I did not mean too. Honest.

AndrewThe thread, if I understand the intent correctly, is meant for Butches who are female-identified to talk about how they view themselves, how they deal with others, etc. In essence, it is their thread.

Andrew, it may be worthwhile for you to start your own thread about FTMs who cannot or will not medically transition (kinda like a support group). :)

[QueenofQueens]

QofQ,

What did I say that was wrong? I am lost. I apologise if I offended anyone or hurt anyone's feelings. I did not mean too. Honest.

Andrew

Hey Andrew,

You are posting an expression of what it means for you to be male id'ed in a thread that was intended to create safe space for female id'ed butches to discuss their journeys.

While sentiments such as "For myself, I id as male, and reject the female id totally. I cannot stand it. It is an insult and offensive to me." may be your truth, they do not belong in a space meant for those who embrace being female id'ed.

Those who do not feel the way you do are at risk of being silenced, shamed or insulted within the context of a space meant to be safe for a female-centric discussion.

There are relevant threads available to express your feelings as a male id'ed person, or you may create one to suit your needs. All voices are welcome on this website if they are mutually respectful.

That said, this thread is NOT a place to debate or deconstruct the female id, nor is it a space to compare the male id to the female.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

~QoQ

[Admin]

Andrew,

QoQ's suggestions are right on. Please start a new thread to talk about your male identity since this thread is specific to female-identified Butches.

I was going to move your posts to a new thread for you but I would also have to move all of the people who replied to you and I think that their replies are grand illustrations of maintaining a healthy space without creating animosity.

Just to be clear: This thread is intended for discussion of/by those who are identified as women/female Butches. Thanks.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Oh ok, I got a bit lost on that. Thanks for helping me to understand what was being said. :awww:

Love,
Andrew

[BullDog]

I hear you bully... and definitely get that and respect that.

For me... I don't feel like I am distancing myself from women- dropping the ball politically by not identifying as a "Butch Woman"... I think I'm just trying to identify in a way that most accurately describes the way I am. I think I'd be dropping the ball more if I didn't speak about injustices, or inequality... but my ID is just meant to represent me with the simplest terms

Similar to how yes, I did discard "female identified butch" from my ID vocabulary I didn't discard that I am proudly female... or discard female related issues. It's just redundant to me... perhaps it'd be better put "butch identified female"... but none the less it's not for me as an ID.

Stone Bull encompasses for me all the things I feel about my butch identity. The obvious, I am stone and have identified as stone butch for over 1/2 my life, and of recent feel a preference for the word Bull which is a more detailed descriptor of the type of butch... it's just my personal shorthand on BullDyke which to me indicates masculinity, queerness, strength in my femaleness... things that in just saying "butch" aren't a given (to me) and in no way guarantee.

So though I am Butch, Stone Bull hones it in and adds factors that are pertinent to me and it feels more personal and accurate to me.

Metro

I definitely hear you, Metro. Right now I feel it is important for me to speak out as a Butch Woman to represent, but that is just my "personal is political" issue, not that I think everyone has to id as Butch Woman to be a strong ally for women.

I'm a stone butch too, Stone Bull definitely has a nice ring to it! I like it. Butch Identified Female rather than Female Identified Butch makes a lot of sense to me too.

[WILDCAT]

Now that I've caught up on some threads...


Ummmmmmmm......................


I'm going to my parents tomorrow... and I'm going to address my mother as "Dad", (... or I'm going to call my father "MOM"?)! That shouldn't be any problem - either way.

Well, not sure which way I will do this yet... but, rest assure... SOMEONE WILL UNDERSTAND!!! It makes TOTAL sense!

Yeah, I'll just "bet" Bev will understand being referred to as a "HIM", (as butchy as she IS)...?

Anyway, shouldn't be a "PROBLEM" - at all.
___

Other than that, I never looked at myself as "ANYTHING"... just a big 'ol fucking DYKE, until like MANY of you are saying... the INTERNET "quagmire". I can't blame that though. I came onto a b/f site and thought the easiest of butch or femme???????? Well, that was easy!! LOL!!

However, when I further read that words like lesbian, dyke, etc... were so derogatorily met, I was truly stunned and HURT. Yes, I was. When I saw that I was greeted with HIM, HYM, BOI, MAN, DUDE... I was hurt and confused even more, yes.

NOW, I want folks to understand this. I am like the guy in the movie who lived in a bomb shelter for so many years... (sorry, can't think of the movie title or main actor's name: the guy who did "George of the Jungle", maybe - and the newer Mummy movies?).

Anyway, I went from a life of a kid being in the "closest" as a small child, to a young adult as being COMPLETELY ADULT OUT only, and then to closing up as a reclusive (in lifestyle by no choice only), and then only to understanding how to use a computer about five years ago - BUT, only getting BACK IN/ONLINE with my community to find THIS. THIS!?

Folks fighting like crazy, and over who was the better "man" (on a BUTCH/FEMME SITE!?), and/or what constituted the "best type of woman"...(?) Did she want a "man, a butch, a transgendered person, a femme, or WHAT"?! It was STUNNING to say the least. (And these are ALL fine "options".) However, A LOT of stuff was dismissing and silencing - to many of us, needless to say - BUT, I'm saying it here ANYWAY. NOW. Yes, I am reiterating from "the LAST SITE"! AUGHHHH!!!!!! OR, referring from what has been written on the NEW SITE. It does not matter that way. It IS a problem, that is what matters.

Now, I've been here online for a year and a half or so. (Cyber queer space that is.) And this is what I "think". (Fun catchin' up, I gotta say. Lots of DRAMA!!)

Please... don't "assume" me to be male, him, hym, he, boi, boy, brother, your uncle, your grandfather, etc... Thank you.


PEACE

*And yes, this means, I "might" have a litte "Daddy" in me, but that is between me and mine...

[Bit]

:: There has been such an evolution in how we talk about ourselves.......


Online, it seemed to suddenly become an issue just a few years ago. ...

I think the issue of IDs could probably only come up online; face to face, so many people automatically go with the body in front of them, the face, the voice--but online, we are missing that cue. Online, we see only a person's words, the workings of their mind. Online, we are free to see each others' souls.

This leads to a new freedom in considering genders, because it is suddenly not possible to automatically assign or dismiss other people's IDs; if a new person tells you he is male or she is female, you do not know any different: you cannot see the face and body, you cannot hear the voice.

I think what happened is that early online gender discussions sparked both Butches and Femmes to consider the scope of Third Gender possibilities and the idea caught fire, spread all over the communities. We are truly gender pioneers, walking the edges of all that is "known" in our society about gender, gender presentation, gender roles. We are the first people in our modern day society to push the edges of gender definition this hard--not that Feminists didn't fight for expanded gender definition, but masculine IDs weren't welcome in Feminist thought during that time.

Now we are expanding not just the role and definitions of "woman" but also of "Butch" and "female" precisely because we have the freedom here online to experiment, to discuss, to stretch boundaries and definitions, to self-assign gender IDs. For the first time ever, we have the freedom to speak with a large group of people who are all living through the same sorts of experiences, and therefore have the same kinds of references.

Tis a heady thing to walk such edges. Whether we see it or not, we are on the cutting edge of human growth and societal evolution every time we talk it through.

[Mister Bent]

<snip>
I'm not male, nor do I desire to be male, though I carry or
present a culmination of traits and qualities (now starts the shit storm)
that I am often mistakenly called sir.


So here's my unresolved crux - I don't usually bother to correct a
mistaken salutation. I don't tout my femaleness. And in NOT
[COLOR="Red"]pushing or defending being female, I feel like I've minimized my
abilities/accomplishments as a female bodied human being.


Its kind of a strange place to be.


I choose female id'
but I don't want to be called Mrs, or Ma'am, or "hey lady" as much
as I don't really want to be called Sir, or Syr or Mister by the general public.

I wrote a huge piece "in my last home" about queering maleness and
masculinity by just being present in male dominated places, doing male
dominated things (my job, my hobbies) and yet I don't want to be male
but I don't want to be feminine or wholly female either. I don't want to
change who I am, a female bodied human being, doing HER best to
bastardize masculinity, nicking away at patriarchy.


Have I thoroughly confused you yet?


Boots, thank you. I relate so much to what you’ve said here. Reconciling the masculine creature with the female body and experience is one of the challenges set to us as butch, I believe.

Here and elsewhere I label myself “male-identified,” perhaps simply only out of default, because I don’t feel I can rightly claim “female.” This body feels like a foreign place to me, and many of my early experiences feel as though they were lived un-authentically – because I was not then in full embrace of the person I was. My earliest and most vivid memories are of otherness.

Queering of maleness and masculinity through work, interests, grooming and attire has been a part of who I am for all of my life, but it took a long time to learn I was not alone and that my experiences were shared by many. It was easy to feel I must have been born “wrong,” though I am lately coming to terms with the fact that I was born just as designed.

In my male dominated position at my male dominated particular place of business I don’t feel I represent male/man; my competency and achievements do not reinforce the competency of males. However, I have the nagging suspicion they aren't reinforcing standard notions of female, either; it feels as if my accomplishments aren't necessarily a "win" in the female column.

Further, how do I reconcile this masculine being that I am with the milestones of my life that are of decidedly female province? What language exists for that?

Time and time again I wonder how I can celebrate my achievements as this masculine person, while acknowledging that they were all the more hard won by virtue of my having been born and socialized (albeit against my own inclinations) female.

And so I relate, as well, to much of what Metropolis said:

<snip>… I'm just trying to identify in a way that most accurately describes the way I am. I think I'd be dropping the ball more if I didn't speak about injustices, or inequality... but my ID is just meant to represent me with the simplest terms.

Similar to how yes, I did discard "female identified butch" from my ID vocabulary I didn't … discard female related issues.

For me, so much of this identity issue really is simply about pronouns and terms of address that feel comfortable, and acknowledging that in the way people relate to me in the world I don't fully have a place among male or female. It's hard not to feel alienated from female existence when women don't generally relate to me as someone with whom they share experiences.

[Boots13]

In my male dominated position at my male dominated particular place of business I don’t feel I represent male/man; my competency and achievements do not reinforce the competency of males. However, I have the nagging suspicion they aren't reinforcing standard notions of female, either; it feels as if my accomplishments aren't necessarily a "win" in the female column.

Further, how do I reconcile this masculine being that I am with the milestones of my life that are of decidedly female province? What language exists for that?

Time and time again I wonder how I can celebrate my achievements as this masculine person, while acknowledging that they were all the more hard won by virtue of my having been born and socialized (albeit against my own inclinations) female.

.

You get it !!

I really understand your statements, though from my experience and perspective. I have been at odds for ages over what should be a seemingly benign recognition of "triumphs".

I am credited for my accomplishments by the outside world by way of my masculine stature
I'm 6' and I'm pushing 185. But I am not strong ! I've learned to use finesse and leverage because I am not strong, though the expectation is contrary to that.
"built like a guy, what'd you expect?"

Women assume I want to be a guy, and that minimizes my successes as an able bodied female. "does guy things, what'd you expect?"

Guys see I'm Queer and assume that all Butches are physical and want to be a guy and my successes just fall in line with
"acts like a guy, what'd you expect?"

I love guys, I love FTM's but I am not desiring to be either one! I am a female , Butch and as such I think my successes and triumphs seem to be diluted in the category of female and recognized more as masculine "wins" .

And my conundrum is : while I don't want to be male, I don't defend our tout or push for my femaleness either.

I am not male and I feel a certain detachedness to "Woman" . I am me, always marching to my own beat and never seeking a specific definition as to where I fall in the spectrum of binary gender.
Sometimes its a grey area, other times I know who I am more by what I am not !

[ToppDyke]

if female is an insult and offensive to some1 get out of women space talking about butches finding himself (?) on a thread about butch women and people ask why I am not on the welcoming committee when it comes to the alphabet soup of diversity cuz here we were tring to put the female in female identifies and I have to read about someone who in there own words hates and rejects anything female and sees it as the worst insult. Come on how degrading to butch women is that.

[christie]

Now that I've caught up on some threads...


Ummmmmmmm......................


I'm going to my parents tomorrow... and I'm going to address my mother as "Dad", (... or I'm going to call my father "MOM"?)! That shouldn't be any problem - either way.

Well, not sure which way I will do this yet... but, rest assure... SOMEONE WILL UNDERSTAND!!! It makes TOTAL sense!

Yeah, I'll just "bet" Bev will understand being referred to as a "HIM", (as butchy as she IS)...?

Anyway, shouldn't be a "PROBLEM" - at all.
___

Other than that, I never looked at myself as "ANYTHING"... just a big 'ol fucking DYKE, until like MANY of you are saying... the INTERNET "quagmire". I can't blame that though. I came onto a b/f site and thought the easiest of butch or femme???????? Well, that was easy!! LOL!!

However, when I further read that words like lesbian, dyke, etc... were so derogatorily met, I was truly stunned and HURT. Yes, I was. When I saw that I was greeted with HIM, HYM, BOI, MAN, DUDE... I was hurt and confused even more, yes.

NOW, I want folks to understand this. I am like the guy in the movie who lived in a bomb shelter for so many years... (sorry, can't think of the movie title or main actor's name: the guy who did "George of the Jungle", maybe - and the newer Mummy movies?).

Anyway, I went from a life of a kid being in the "closest" as a small child, to a young adult as being COMPLETELY ADULT OUT only, and then to closing up as a reclusive (in lifestyle by no choice only), and then only to understanding how to use a computer about five years ago - BUT, only getting BACK IN/ONLINE with my community to find THIS. THIS!?

Folks fighting like crazy, and over who was the better "man" (on a BUTCH/FEMME SITE!?), and/or what constituted the "best type of woman"...(?) Did she want a "man, a butch, a transgendered person, a femme, or WHAT"?! It was STUNNING to say the least. (And these are ALL fine "options".) However, A LOT of stuff was dismissing and silencing - to many of us, needless to say - BUT, I'm saying it here ANYWAY. NOW. Yes, I am reiterating from "the LAST SITE"! AUGHHHH!!!!!! OR, referring from what has been written on the NEW SITE. It does not matter that way. It IS a problem, that is what matters.

Now, I've been here online for a year and a half or so. (Cyber queer space that is.) And this is what I "think". (Fun catchin' up, I gotta say. Lots of DRAMA!!)

Please... don't "assume" me to be male, him, hym, he, boi, boy, brother, your uncle, your grandfather, etc... Thank you.


PEACE

*And yes, this means, I "might" have a litte "Daddy" in me, but that is between me and mine...

Wildcat -

Thank you for this post. It really resonated with me and some of the discussions that Jess and I have had about what I felt was an underlying pressure on the other site to be male... that the end-all, be-all was to transition.

I come from a RT world, a rather large southern city, where my community was pretty label-less. Butches were butch women. Femmes were femme women and the number of FTM's was pretty low.

Imagine my surprise when I happened upon "the other site" and it was ALL about the labels - and better yet, no two people seem to have the same definition of the labels. While I was familiar with the "Syr, boi, Hym, etc" from the BDSM world, they weren't an integral part of my daily life. I certainly had never faced the asschewings by someone who felt offended that I didn't use the right pronoun in addressing them, and I think I have never felt as profoundly sad as when I realized that being a dyke or heaven forbid, a "lesbian" was frowned upon. It made me feel "less than."

I personally think that butch women ROCK! :awww: For that matter, I think all queers rock (just call me an opportunist :cheerleader:)

I've always felt that having that masculine energy forefront in a female body was the most exquisitely beautiful entity and should be celebrated...

Thank you all for your lovely, thoughtful posts.

Christie

[NJFemmie]

Wildcat -

Thank you for this post. It really resonated with me and some of the discussions that Jess and I have had about what I felt was an underlying pressure on the other site to be male... that the end-all, be-all was to transition.

I come from a RT world, a rather large southern city, where my community was pretty label-less. Butches were butch women. Femmes were femme women and the number of FTM's was pretty low.

Imagine my surprise when I happened upon "the other site" and it was ALL about the labels - and better yet, no two people seem to have the same definition of the labels. While I was familiar with the "Syr, boi, Hym, etc" from the BDSM world, they weren't an integral part of my daily life. I certainly had never faced the asschewings by someone who felt offended that I didn't use the right pronoun in addressing them, and I think I have never felt as profoundly sad as when I realized that being a dyke or heaven forbid, a "lesbian" was frowned upon. It made me feel "less than."

I personally think that butch women ROCK! :awww: For that matter, I think all queers rock (just call me an opportunist :cheerleader:)

I've always felt that having that masculine energy forefront in a female body was the most exquisitely beautiful entity and should be celebrated...

Thank you all for your lovely, thoughtful posts.

Christie

I had this nicely typed response to this (which took me about an hour or so to pull together), and of course, somehow I lost the (*&#(* thing!

In a nutshell, this post resonated with me and my experiences on the other site, as a femme who tried to create a safe haven for women ID'd butches. I noticed that too many butches were being forced into silence for the way they identified, and for me, that was unacceptable. Despite the threats, the name calling, etc.. it turned out to be a positive addition to that site.

One thing I have to say is that I am happy that this site (so far as I have seen) does not place a spotlight on any ONE particular dynamic (besides it's name, lol) and allows for all of the community to feel safe and welcomed.

No matter how a person identifies, this is one community. It may have different sub-cultures, but the core dynamic is the same - whether or not it is recognized or admitted.

[BullDog]

Christie, thank you for post. It certainly resonates with me. The online world of butch femme that I have encountered has been very far removed from my real time experience- particularly with all of the lesbian bashing and marginalization of butch women and female identified butches. Out in the real world butches who identify as females and/or women seem to be the overwhelming majority, so how we practically disappear in online communities remains the great mystery.

p.s. Wildcat hope calling Mom Dad now is going well. I am sure absolutely no one is confused by that and is clear that she is a mother and not a father.

[Mister Bent]

Christie, thank you for post. It certainly resonates with me. The online world of butch femme that I have encountered has been very far removed from my real time experience- particularly with all of the lesbian bashing and marginalization of butch women and female identified butches. Out in the real world butches who identify as females and/or women seem to be the overwhelming majority, so how we practically disappear in online communities remains the great mystery.


What I find interesting is that so much weight is being put on this issue in an online community. Here you have just identified a truth - that what you, and others, experience online "is very far removed from (my) real time experience."

Personally, I'd take real time inclusion over online any day. Maybe that's just me, but I've been made to feel unwelcome in 3D places simply for being butch, no further modifier required, so it's not an illogical leap to see that male id'ed/trans would face even more scrutiny. So is it possible that what we see online is somewhat of a backlash toward a real time community that misunderstands, marginalizes, and flat out excludes? (Not that it makes it acceptable.)

I disbelieve, as I have stated elsewhere, that female identified butches "disappear online." It's been my experience that some of our most eloquent butch voices are "female/woman" identified butches. But I do not want to say that at the risk of discounting what you feel or experience.

I do think the bashing is all around; we are all equally guilty of and subject to it. In the real world, where lesbians and female identified butches "seem to be the overwhelming majority" there is a lot of bashing, questioning and marginalization of male identified/trans types. There are pockets of acceptance, just as occurs online. However, I don't believe that anyone can silence you into "practically disappear(ing)."

While there may seem to be a lot of noise and attention around the issues surrounding male-identification, transmen and transphobia education, I think that's simply a matter of evolution. Butch is largely understood - certainly butch woman is understood. But in recent years, many have stepped forward to claim what they believe to be their true nature. The time is right for this process to occur. There is no database, no history that tells us how many of our butch forbears generations ago might have wished the same freedom. We can't say that male-identification is new, only that it has come forward.

The bottom line for me is that any form of hierarchy is fucked up, and for anyone to actively marginalize butch women, or non-male id'ed people of any stripe, is equally fucked up. Not having been a "victim" of it (online), I can't say that I see it happening, nor have I seen any evidence presented, beyond "male pronouns are the default." Looks like it's been resolved on this site, at least. Or is it something more?

If I'm not seeing it, then I do seek to be enlightened, because in my thinking butch women are the foundation of butch, and that never goes away.

[BullDog]

Mister Bent I do not consider myself a victim online in any way shape or form, so I guess we are in agreement there. Neither one of us sees ourselves as victims.

I find the male defaults used online for butch to be the mere tip of the iceberg. I see masculinity being conflated with male and then ascribed to butch. Femmes are the girls, butches are the boys. I object to that. I see the devaluation of feminine and female played out in online communities- that certainly affects femmes as well as butches.

Some of the strongest supporters for me personally and other butches when we have spoken out has been trans guys. I appreciate their support very much. I don't see it as an us vs. them war, no matter how much people try to characterize it that way. The problem is not different masculine people competing or in some sort of turf war. At least that is not how I see it. I see the core of the problem being not valuing the true spectrum of what it means to be feminine and or female- including masculine female. I believe all of us do this. We have to rely back on tired stereotypes. If you are masculine you must be male.

If you don't see the problems that I do, I am not sure what I can say. People have talked about the problem at length, for years. I suppose it's a difference in perception.

Then there are the tired stereotypes- for both butches and femmes that also get very tiresome. Fortunately I face none of that at home. My girlfriend (who is femme) went out to fix a friend's sink this morning. She is knowledgeable about plumbing. I am not. I stayed home and when the dryer was done folded and put the clothes away. I am butch, she is femme. We are not confused. I am sure you hate the tired stereotypes as much as I do. I have met lots of great people and learned a great deal being part of online communities, but I sometimes wonder why I do bother.

[Mister Bent]

Mister Bent I do not consider myself a victim online in any way shape or form, so I guess we are in agreement there. Neither one of us sees ourselves as victims.

I find the male defaults used online for butch to be the mere tip of the iceberg. I see masculinity being conflated with male and then ascribed to butch. Femmes are the girls, butches are the boys. I object to that. I see the devaluation of feminine and female played out in online communities- that certainly affects femmes as well as butches.

Some of the strongest supporters for me personally and other butches when we have spoken out has been trans guys. I appreciate their support very much. I don't see it as an us vs. them war, no matter how much people try to characterize it that way. The problem is not different masculine people competing or in some sort of turf war. At least that is not how I see it. I see the core of the problem being not valuing the true spectrum of what it means to be feminine and or female- including masculine female. I believe all of us do this. We have to rely back on tired stereotypes. If you are masculine you must be male.

If you don't see the problems that I do, I am not sure what I can say. People have talked about the problem at length, for years. I suppose it's a difference in perception.

Then there are the tired stereotypes- for both butches and femmes that also get very tiresome. Fortunately I face none of that at home. My girlfriend (who is femme) went out to fix a friend's sink this morning. She is knowledgeable about plumbing. I am not. I stayed home and when the dryer was done folded and put the clothes away. I am butch, she is femme. We are not confused. I am sure you hate the tired stereotypes as much as I do. I have met lots of great people and learned a great deal being part of online communities, but I sometimes wonder why I do bother.

I agree with much of what you said, particularly those items in bold.

Yes, you're right, I see the tired/tiresome stereotypes and roll my eyes. I want to post some snark in return, but lately I try to sit on my hands. As much as the knuckle-dragging, neanderthal butch approach doesn't speak to me and my existence (or you and yours, it would appear), I recognize that it does for some. It's true that there are those among us who are just like their male counterparts. We can try to raise awareness, though we have often seen how that creates defensiveness. Shouting, belittling, finger pointing only leads to silencing and exclusion, and don't we want to rise above that? (General statement - I'm not addressing you directly with that, BullDog.) It's a fine and difficult line, but if we don't walk it with compassion, we inevitably end up butting heads. Hell, even with a compassionate approach people sometimes get their undies in a bundle.

I'm a firm believer in female masculinity. My femme partner, and many others, possesses female masculinity. Her masculinity does not look like my masculinity, but it is there nonetheless. Which is to say, yes indeed, I take exception to the conflation of masculinity with male.

The thread "Dear Femme" raises issues which I believe to be pertinent to some raised here - devaluation of the female/feminine/femme. I believe there has been a lot of lip service in the name of respecting and honoring femme. I believe that in posturing as protectors, knights and chivalrous gentlemen that we have just as often smothered femme. In order to feel big and strong we have had to "demurize" femme. It's absurd and feels like a cartoon world at times. I recognize that dynamic is precisely what some are looking for, however, and I'm not here to knock their preferences.

I do see some of what you're getting at, which I admit has at times felt a little like finger pointing - "they (male-identified/trans and the femmes that dig them) did it!" But you say that's not the case, and I trust your words. So where is the problem then? Seems like it's "all" of us - like I said, we are all equally guilty. And how do we change that? How do we bring back value without drawing lines, casting blame and continuing to play to the same routines we always have?

I believe there is a new approach possible, but I don't believe it will be attained through creating division (again, I'm not placing blame on anyone or one group). I see what you speak of, but what I still don't see is where the root lies in this community and how do we change it?

Am I speaking in circles? I worry that might be, but I truly am trying to understand and forge forward.

[Toughy]

sometimes I feel like a broken record..........


What I find interesting is that so much weight is being put on this issue in an online community. Here you have just identified a truth - that what you, and others, experience online "is very far removed from (my) real time experience."

It's about those who are trying to figure out who they are and butch speaks to them and so does female/woman and live in bumfuck alabama and have no community. Butch=hy/he butch=male/man


I disbelieve, as I have stated elsewhere, that female identified butches "disappear online." It's been my experience that some of our most eloquent butch voices are "female/woman" identified butches. But I do not want to say that at the risk of discounting what you feel or experience.

thanks so much for coming in a thread about female identity and completely dismissing everything we have been saying.......for fucking years..........

The bottom line for me is that any form of hierarchy is fucked up, and for anyone to actively marginalize butch women, or non-male id'ed people of any stripe, is equally fucked up. Not having been a "victim" of it (online), I can't say that I see it happening, nor have I seen any evidence presented, beyond "male pronouns are the default." Looks like it's been resolved on this site, at least. Or is it something more?

thanks so much for calling us victims and then again discounting our reality............while couching it in 'hierarchy is fucked up'.

I so love it when male privilege comes in and takes a dump. How original..........

[Mister Bent]

Toughy, I reject, again and will continue to do so, that I am guilty of male privilege.

It serves solely to dismiss the validity of anything I might be saying or trying to understand.

I'm not going to show my "sexbits" or discuss my history here in order to feel included, because that's also seriously fucked up.

The only single solitary isolated place in the entire universe where I am accused of male privilege is here, in threads like this. The only single solitary place in the entire universe where I am even related to as "male" (and not simply, correctly masculine) is here. And nowhere do I ask to be treated as "a man." I'm not a man. Nor have I ever wished to be understood as one, your reading of my gender is incorrect.

thanks so much for coming in a thread about female identity and completely dismissing everything we have been saying.......for fucking years..........

I did not "dismiss" everything *you* (to whom does the "we" above refer? I'm curious, because that sounds a lot like us/them speak) "have been saying for years." I'm one person, just because I don't see it, refuse to embrace it, does not mean *you* are being dismissed. I say I disbelieve in this notion of invisibility because I refuse to honor it - this silencing, this notion of being dismissed. I also believe there is room enough for all. Take your space! Just let's not wage war in doing so.


It's about those who are trying to figure out who they are and butch speaks to them and so does female/woman and live in bumfuck alabama and have no community. Butch=hy/he butch=male/man

What you state here, essentially, is that the debate is about those who are in the process of self discovery, and that online they may be swept up in the conflated whirlwind of masculine = male. You really want to place more value on that than on real time experience? I "came of age" in a vacuum (bumfuck), too. Online engagement was significant, but not the sole source of my identity.

[christie]

What I find interesting is that so much weight is being put on this issue in an online community. Here you have just identified a truth - that what you, and others, experience online "is very far removed from (my) real time experience."

Personally, I'd take real time inclusion over online any day. Maybe that's just me, but I've been made to feel unwelcome in 3D places simply for being butch, no further modifier required, so it's not an illogical leap to see that male id'ed/trans would face even more scrutiny. So is it possible that what we see online is somewhat of a backlash toward a real time community that misunderstands, marginalizes, and flat out excludes? (Not that it makes it acceptable.)




MisterBent -

While I can certainly understand and appreciate your perspective, I think that you might not be taking into consideration that for a number of people, an online community is all they have - there is no RT community.

We live in a small town nestled in the foothills of the Blue Ridge. To even find queers, we must travel at least a couple of hours to do so. I am away from home in the whopping metropolis of Richmond a couple of days a week and even there, we have encountered perhaps half a dozen BF couples. Jess doesn't even have this. There is no RT for inclusion.

For some, the online communities are the only refuge. The plethora of knowledge and information of others' journey to self. If in these communities, we harbor and foster the minimizing of the female id'd or less masculine presenting butches, or for that matter, what I feel is a total dismissal of femmes (that's another thread entirely) then what is the eventual evolution of these dynamics? If the message is sent that male and transman is the end all be all then I see it as subscribing/condoning binary gender.

I hope this makes sense. I am not saying that I am right and anyone else is wrong, merely that I think we have different experiences and perspectives.

Christie

[Mister Bent]

MisterBent -

While I can certainly understand and appreciate your perspective, I think that you might not be taking into consideration that for a number of people, an online community is all they have - there is no RT community.

We live in a small town nestled in the foothills of the Blue Ridge. To even find queers, we must travel at least a couple of hours to do so. I am away from home in the whopping metropolis of Richmond a couple of days a week and even there, we have encountered perhaps half a dozen BF couples. Jess doesn't even have this. There is no RT for inclusion.

For some, the online communities are the only refuge. The plethora of knowledge and information of others' journey to self. If in these communities, we harbor and foster the minimizing of the female id'd or less masculine presenting butches, or for that matter, what I feel is a total dismissal of femmes (that's another thread entirely) then what is the eventual evolution of these dynamics? If the message is sent that male and transman is the end all be all then I see it as subscribing/condoning binary gender.

I hope this makes sense. I am not saying that I am right and anyone else is wrong, merely that I think we have different experiences and perspectives.

Christie

Christie,

I get it, and you do make sense.

When I "came out" there wasn't even much happening online (of which I was aware). I had to go through the process of self-discovery based solely on what I felt about myself.

I think most of us identify as we do, I would hope all of us, because of who we are - in that vacuum. In the absence of butch, there is still femme, and so on.

The message should not be sent that male-id/transman is the penultimate state of being. There is a vocal mass knuckling for space - I think, as I said earlier, that a lot of noise is being made at this time due to identity evolution.

I clearly stated that I believe we have, to some degree, smothered femme, and along with it, feminine. And when I say "we" I mean ALL masculine identities. But I believe we (masculine women, female identified butches, butches in general, femmes, etc) have to continue to hold our space, affirm our identities and continue to honor the female/feminine without becoming separatist in our politics and community.

I believe we all have to own our phobias.

[John Shaft]

thanks so much for coming in a thread about female identity and completely dismissing everything we have been saying.......for fucking years..........



thanks so much for calling us victims and then again discounting our reality............while couching it in 'hierarchy is fucked up'.

I so love it when male privilege comes in and takes a dump. How original..........

Yeah, this response really makes me want to be part of your community.

[Toughy]

Yeah, this response really makes me want to be part of your community.

the above post is about as useful as my post is............
------------
Mister Bent.....

I posted in the react mode rather than the act mode.

I still have some problems with your post........however I am, at this time, unable to articulate those problems in a constructive manner.......

and then there is the part of me that wonders if I am just being the good little girl and trying to make it right with the masculine voice who said/suggested I offended him/hym or dismissed hys/his way of thinking.......(I got that idea from the femme thread)

[QueenofQueens]

Toughy, I understand your frustration, but please remember to try to express your feelings respectfully of all posters.

Mr. Bent, once again, I will reiterate that this thread is a safe space for female id'ed butches to discuss their journeys and experiences. It is NOT a place to debate the manifestations of male or masculine privilege in male id'ed folks.
Nor is it a forum to extract evidence or proof from female id'ed butches of where their experience lies and why they express it as such. Please honor the feelings of those who are posting here.

You are welcome to start another thread addressing your questions, or take your conversations private, but please keep your posts within this thread relevant to the topic.

[T D]

and here we go........ uggghhhhh

[Admin]

All,

I am getting reported posts from this thread.

I realize that this conversation is heated, but I think that we can ALL agree that building a bridge between the female identity, Butch identity, Male identity, Trans identity is NEEDED and valued in this community.

In order to do that, FOLKS MUST STAY RESPECTFUL of other people's opinions here, even when they don't agree.

If you find that you cannot engage with other people while you are angry without making sideways swipes or passive-aggressive responses, then you need to take a break, take a breath, and step AWAY from the conversation until you are able to engage on a CONVERSATIONAL level instead of a PERSONAL level.

If someone asks for an example of what you mean, SHOW THEM.

If someone has a fucked up view of YOUR experience, SHOW THEM WHY.

If someone who does not identify the way you do and makes a generalization about your way of being, SHOW THEM WHERE THEY ARE WRONG.

SHOW THEM, don't let your anger negate the conversation that you are bringing to the table.

If you are tired of explaining it to people, then understand that people aren't going to just automatically wake up one day and magically understand your position. Yes, it is tiring to repeat yourself. Yes, it is frustrating when you have been saying it for years. Yes, it makes you question your own sanity. BUT.

The people on this website are your fucking FAMILY whether you like it or not. I wholeheartedly believe that our shared Queer experience gives us all a common bond.


With that being said, I do want to make it clear that this website is specific in its intent to provide honoring space for Butches, Femmes, Trans Folks, Folks without labels, and people in between.

The ONE requirement for membership here is that the Butch/Femme dynamic must be relevant to your way of being in some way. Obviously if you signed up on this website, it wasnt because we were giving away free toasters.
Let's try to get to our common roots. Let's build bridges to one another.


Mad love,
Admin


ETA: QoQ and I were posting at the same time. And she gets a chocolate cake for being awesome.

[ToppDyke]

How about we start taking the men out of women so we can put women 1st for once cuz women can stand on our own without having to be the assigned supportive form for men that society and even our vocab suggest. Sorry that is not what butch women are about in any way shape or form.

There is no need on this thread for female ided butches to talk about anyone other then butch women/female butches.

[Linus]

//way off topic

Obviously if you signed up on this website, it wasnt because we were giving away free toasters.

:freetoaster:

:bolt:

Run away!

//back on topic...

[Bit]

Bent has talked more than once and very clearly about NOT being male-identified.

It is not appropriate for anyone to infer or assume another person's identification--most especially if it is being used to be divisive and dismissive.

Bent is talking about personal experience as a NON-male identified person. Please... notice that and do not dismiss it.

[BullDog]

This is thread is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Threads for female/woman identified butches have routinely been interrupted, disrupted and the focus turned to others and others concerns in the past. Can we not have a thread where female/woman id'd butches speak to our experiences? Where the focus is on us, instead of other people's concerns and questions? If people want to post in support, great. But this thread is supposed to be for us.

[dreadgeek]

Great, if understandably intense conversation!

This conversation is one I've tried to stay out of because there are altogether too many legitimate positions that are all self-consistent to come from. Everyone is, in a limited sense, correct about our starting places it seems to me. I have to say that it took a long time for me to become comfortable with being a butch woman. I treasure my female identity and look at my transmale brothers with respect and admiration. The path of transition is a gutsy and intense journey and while valuable, I would not wish the various roadblocks and inconveniences along that path on anyone. I chafe, however, at the 'assumption of he' that happens online. I think, in part, because it happens offline by the larger community. We all know the joys of public restrooms and how utterly welcome the familiar words "are you in the right bathroom" are. It would be nice (if not entirely realistic) to be able to be she, consistently, in a space filled with my sisters and brothers.

At the BF.com bash last year, my wife commented upon how many times she had to correct people that I preferred she and people would continue to use the masculine. I would also like to believe that within our circles where the genders are fluid and, let's be real, quite individuated and complex we would all adhere to the rule that ultimately, if you say you are he you are he and if you say you are she you are she. Full-stop.

Thanks all for engaging in this topic that hits very close to everyone's home.

Cheers
Aj

[Toughy]

Bent has talked more than once and very clearly about NOT being male-identified.

It is not appropriate for anyone to infer or assume another person's identification--most especially if it is being used to be divisive and dismissive.

Bent is talking about personal experience as a NON-male identified person. Please... notice that and do not dismiss it.

bit........understand this is not about you personally........not at all............any femme could have posted this and my response would be the same..........

please don't pretend Mister Bent is a female/woman id'd butch...........hy/he is not......all of us know that.........

and now the femme comes in and re-inforces/defends the non-woman/female id'd butch for talking about male/masculine identity in a thread about female butch identity.

if a butch came in that femme thread and did the same thing....well.......... we all know what would happen.....


...........shaking my head..........

[Linus]

bit........understand this is not about you personally........not at all............any femme could have posted this and my response would be the same..........

please don't pretend Mister Bent is a female/woman id'd butch...........hy/he is not......all of us know that.........

and now the femme comes in and re-inforces/defends the non-woman/female id'd butch for talking about male/masculine identity in a thread about female butch identity.

if a butch came in that femme thread and did the same thing....well.......... we all know what would happen.....


...........shaking my head...........


Toughy, if I may ask.. what things do you face as a female-ID butch? How do you distinguish yourself elsewhere and how much do you face challenges to your female-identity? Are you still, in this day and age, expected to conform to a specific definition of "woman"?

And I'm curious as to what advice would you pass on to those younger butches? Do you have a "big butch, little butch" sort of program where a younger butch might be mentored or be able to come to ask questions??

[WILDCAT]

I think the issue of IDs could probably only come up online; face to face, so many people automatically go with the body in front of them, the face, the voice--but online, we are missing that cue. Online, we see only a person's words, the workings of their mind. Online, we are free to see each others' souls.

This leads to a new freedom in considering genders, because it is suddenly not possible to automatically assign or dismiss other people's IDs; if a new person tells you he is male or she is female, you do not know any different: you cannot see the face and body, you cannot hear the voice.

I think what happened is that early online gender discussions sparked both Butches and Femmes to consider the scope of Third Gender possibilities and the idea caught fire, spread all over the communities. We are truly gender pioneers, walking the edges of all that is "known" in our society about gender, gender presentation, gender roles. We are the first people in our modern day society to push the edges of gender definition this hard--not that Feminists didn't fight for expanded gender definition, but masculine IDs weren't welcome in Feminist thought during that time.
Now we are expanding not just the role and definitions of "woman" but also of "Butch" and "female" precisely because we have the freedom here online to experiment, to discuss, to stretch boundaries and definitions, to self-assign gender IDs. For the first time ever, we have the freedom to speak with a large group of people who are all living through the same sorts of experiences, and therefore have the same kinds of references.

Tis a heady thing to walk such edges. Whether we see it or not, we are on the cutting edge of human growth and societal evolution every time we talk it through.


____

Hey BIT, I was going to do the "thank you" botton on this, but thought this was such a good message - that I should just post OFF of it.

I love the "pushes the edge of gender" definition part of this. I really appreciate the "history" summary here that you gave. I have always loved how "daring" our community has been! We are a very special people. (And yes, I am very "biased" regarding our community.) :LGBTQFlag:

The part I highlighted... I just want to respond to briefly here, and then I am done with it (here, and it probably is a bit of a derail), but personal to me - so that is why I'm addressing it now.

When I say I was part of the "movement" in the 70's, it was not the "straight feminist" movement, that DID in fact NOT want to be associated with "queer women". I agree. (LET ALONE masculine women.) However, I believe you are referring to the queer women's movement at that time, "not accepting masculine women". Although, it is true with these "movements", that both of these things did occur... I just want to point out, that during the "queer" movement, there were many masculine born women, that did not want to be part of this movement - and some could NOT be part of it. By choice. I had friends who couldn't. I think Mr Bent referred to it here somewhere, about many folks THEN not being able to truly be theirselves at that time, did not fit into this. These are some of who make up the MANY transgendered folks today. I am grateful that it is all more out there now, than it was then. Every little step in advancing contributes to the next... step. Things have come such a long way, in seemingly a short period of time. Although, I know it probably seems agonizingly long for many who "felt" they didn't belong, and to those who tried to "fit in" who weren't accepted. HELL, it was difficult for the many who were just doing the march, to the beating of any different drum. I'm not excluding ANYONE thus, for their part of this. All of it is equally important to me. That's how I see it anyway. Thanks for allowing me to try and express that here. I just don't like that being referred to only -. That is not true from my experience of knowing folks then, and how "I was" as a more masculine woman. But, it was a problem. (Probably as much as this male ID'd quagmire seemingly across the board NOW is so hurtful and at times damaging to our commmunity - to butch women I mean. Could be apples and oranges though, I'm just talking "pain" of not being understood here.)

___

Mr. Bent... I really appreciate your posts here. I feel like you are extending yourself, and trying to understand and work "with" - and then I often get this "...but," sense at the end of some of your posts. And I (ME) feel a little bit let down somehow, like you "got it, oh, but then you don't". Perhaps we are all being defensive in certain ways. Maybe you're right there. I don't feel that way though (?) I could be wrong.

I cannot stress enough, how important it is for me that folks on a butch/femme site, inclusive to ALL in the community do NOT assume that I use a male pronoun. And to the folks that say "hey, it doesn't bother me what you call me", that is wonderful. To the ones who say "what is the BIG DEAL" who do it... I think that is not very considerate. To the "femme's" who want a "he", I am not your cup of tea. Fine, really. I'm happy with who I am. I don't mind whoever anyone wants. I'm not going to be "molded" or disrespected though, sorry. Uh, uh. I don't fit into a "category", I'm too complex and diverse. And I love my masculine side(s) as well - just as well.

It seems to me like it would be the same if I went onto a transgendered titled site that was also welcoming to the entire community, (or thread here, anywhere?!) and referred to a FtM as a "her". Why the hell would I do that? Hell, I don't even assume the "she" here for butch/femme dynamics. So, it is a problem that has been the default. I would imagine that a male ID might feel... what (?), inivisible if we assumed everyone was a SHE. I don't feel that way regarding ID'ing, so I can't understand why this is done - ALONG with the "assuming" everyone on a queer site started by women about the butch/femme dynamics must be "lesbians". That seems a little "out of order" as well. However, I realize folks "newly" coming out, may not know some of this in their learning process. That is understandable at times to me.

Personally, I ID as lesbian, DYKE, butch woman. I don't think ANYONE has to be like me. I have my reasons for MY ID, which is rich in history (to me personally). I am gender queer as well. I think I'm probably a little bit of MANY things. But, I am female ID'd... bottom line, I don't understand why that is not being respected at times.

Not complaining it just hurts. And I really don't understand why folks can't just accept everyone for the way they are - where and why is the assuming and judgment coming from anyway? In any direction? Baffles me. (And Bully, I took my mother to get a "butch haircut" today. She looks GOOD! Thank you.)

Geez, I'd really hate to think that being most "male-like" is the top of the pyramid, to aspire to. Then, I will again give thanks for the women who fought for us, our rights equally as... even the ones who didn't "understand us queers" at that time.

I cannot express enough HOW HAPPY I am for the transgendered folks, hard as that has been, to now be where they are. Which still needs a lot of improvement. As, does for all queers, men and women, etc... here in our community.

Isn't it sad that we fight regarding this? Is it some kind of turf war? West Side Story here? What? (Just thinking out loud, don't really need an answer right away.)

Sincerely,
WILDCAT

[Mister Bent]

Mr. Bent... I really appreciate your posts here. I feel like you are extending yourself, and trying to understand and work "with" - and then I often get this "...but," sense at the end of some of your posts. And I (ME) feel a little bit let down somehow, like you "got it, oh, but then you don't". Perhaps we are all being defensive in certain ways. Maybe you're right there. I don't feel that way though (?) I could be wrong..

Isn't it sad that we fight regarding this? Is it some kind of turf war? West Side Story here? What? (Just thinking out loud, don't really need an answer right away.)

Sincerely,
WILDCAT

Wildcat,

I appreciate your perspective and input. Approach and tone can so much better facilitate communication. I was trying to extend myself, to understand something that is so clearly very important to members of this community. If I came across as getting it/not getting it, and that felt offensive, for that I apologize. Offense was decidedly not my intent. Sometimes as we work our way through a thing open communication and patience are necessary as we stumble along. I felt there were moments when that started to happen.

What I was hoping for was some clarity - to understand the perspective of others, and further to seek to bridge this us/them position and the casting of aspersions and accusations instead of actively engaging in dialog. It was not my intent for my identity to play any part in that dialog, but perhaps I am blind to the ways in which that can occur regardless of intent. I didn't come to this thread trying to represent any particular identity or group. I'm a butch trying to understand other butches.

However, I don't believe any of that, or the intent behind the creation of a thread, gives anyone the right to play identity police, to make inaccurate accusations of privilege and to define the gender identity of another. It certainly isn't a way to encourage people to try to hear you.

Enjoy your thread.

[TIMBERWOLF]

Yes , it seems like i have to ID as female ID Butch mainly on line or get the hy,hys things going. I think that is why WT says hir as that way to her its like acknowledging me being female ID Butch rather than male ID. Its only been within i feel the last 8 yrs that the male ID label has been coming on strong.But, I like to stop and have a cigar like any of the guys, and im sure there are a few femmes that like it too LOL.
TIMBER

[FR]

---personally i could use a new toaster---

[Admin]

bit........understand this is not about you personally........not at all............any femme could have posted this and my response would be the same..........

please don't pretend Mister Bent is a female/woman id'd butch...........hy/he is not......all of us know that.........

and now the femme comes in and re-inforces/defends the non-woman/female id'd butch for talking about male/masculine identity in a thread about female butch identity.

if a butch came in that femme thread and did the same thing....well.......... we all know what would happen.....


...........shaking my head..........


Toughy,

Your posts have been reported several times today. Please take a step back from this thread and think about engaging without anger or condescension. I am not asking you not to BE angry, just for your engagement here to be respectful.

Thanks,
Admin

[Kosmo]

It occurred to me a few days ago that I never used to distinguish myself as a "female-identified" Butch.

:: There has been such an evolution in how we talk about ourselves, I was wondering if any other Butches had always distinguished their identity with a gender prefix or not?

No, I had never distinguished my identity with a gender prefix. It never occurred to me that I needed to. It was engaging in an online butch/femme community that I first became aware of this and someone referred to me as 'bro'. That term is foreign to me, no matter how I would identify.

The only 'male privilege' that I have ever run into has been the privilege that men seem to own when they expect you to accept the self-perceived courtesy of 'opening the door' and allowing a woman to enter first. I do not exist to validate one's comfort level or upbringing.

I am a member of these butch/femme online communities to validate my existence with others like me. Who are we? We are queer, dyke, butch, femme, FtM, MtF, Lesbian...so many others. We exist in the face of denial and prejudice. Most of us live dual lives. Most of us must confront daily the constant challenges to who we are.

I would agree that the open dialog is invigorating, challenging and thought provoking, but sometimes it can be irrelevant and the aftertaste leaves a lot to be desired.

P.S. Anxiously awaiting my new toaster.

[Niteshift]

Okay. I'm sitting here and thinking. Acutally I have been thinking quite a bit about this whole thread. I bookmarked it the other day when Jackhammer first put it up and there was maybe one post and have been reading it whenever I can as I am at work. (Guess the filter net just hasn't caught this little fish called BFP.) This is a subject that I have thought about numerous times throughout my life but pretty much always on my own or in RT conversation with one or two other people. BFP is my first online community that I have truly participated in at all...I lurked very little and briefly on the other site. This whole online community is still really new to me...hell, I do well to use the computer enough (not work related) to check my emails and bank account. I'm learning though...I'm like a kid in a candy store, oh, better yet, a bibliophile in a library. Yep, that's better.

I've been out since I was 17 years old...just a couple of years now <g>, and I considered myself "lesbian" if I put a label to myself at all. As little as three years ago if someone were to call me "butch" I was immediately miffed if not outright pissed, depending upon the situation. With a limited queer community and the little socialization that my ex and myself did, it is no wonder that I had preconceived, societal introduced/reinforced notions about "butch". At that time I thought that "butch" meant that I wanted to be a man, either to "pass" or to transition. I thought that "butch" meant that I was not a woman. I remember once when I was in military uniform and in a civilian store someone called me "sir". Being young and stupid and yes, sigh, passive-agressive, I paid for my purchase and said "thank you, ma'am" to the male clerk. The ex of my ex used to call me a "baby butch", implying that one day I'd grow up into a "real butch" like her/him...still not sure about that person's preferred ID; we didn't talk a whole lot.

My ex and I used to play with terms such as "butchy-femme" or "femme(y)-butch" if people would ask about us/our relationship dynamic. Hmmm...as they say hindsight is 20/20...or forethought in this case. People say some cold things in the midst of the end of relationship and in the few months that it takes after the end to disengage completely (as it seems to be the case, at least for me). I remember once such conversation that my ex and I had once she learned whom I was seeing. She, my ex, said something along the lines that "she's just going to turn you into a man." Now, please don't get me wrong, I totally agree with Dreadgeek in post # 47 who said "I...look at my transmale brothers with respect and admiration. The path of transition is a gutsy and intense journey." I think that is an amazingly brave and wonderful thing to do...if that is what a person wants/feels the need/drive to do. I will, and DO, support my friends and family that desire to take that journey.

With a nod to Wildcat who states in post #50..."I'm happy with who I am. I don't mind whoever anyone wants. I'm not going to be "molded" or disrespected though, sorry. Uh, uh. I don't fit into a "category", I'm too complex and diverse. And I love my masculine side(s) as well - just as well." Perhaps to the chagrin of my ex, my current lover has not "turned me into a man". If anything she has done nothing more than simply allow me to discover my true self...the same self that I have always been. Dreadgeek said, "it took a long time for me to become comfortable with being a butch woman". It has taken me a while as well but...

I claim wholeheartedly "BUTCH WOMAN". I am a butch woman when I am in my faded jeans, oversize sweater, leather gloves and well-worn, broke-in military issue boots and crawling underneath the house to lay insulation to protect the pipes from the cold air "on the mountain". I am a butch woman when I take her car into be serviced because I'm not really sure about the whole oil changing thing. I am a butch woman when I jack up that same car, rip off the tire, sling in the truck and haul it off to be fixed. I am a butch woman when I doing laundry and folding her nightgowns. I am a butch woman when I run outside after seeing a vacuuming a snake (I swear it was at least 6ft long--she says maybe 4inches) and she has to empty out the cannister to let the anaconda slither away. I am a butch woman swinging an axe or weilding a chainsaw. I am a butch woman when I am on my knees sucking her cock.

[WILDCAT]

Okay. I'm sitting here and thinking. Acutally I have been thinking quite a bit about this whole thread. I bookmarked it the other day when Jackhammer first put it up and there was maybe one post and have been reading it whenever I can as I am at work. (Guess the filter net just hasn't caught this little fish called BFP.) This is a subject that I have thought about numerous times throughout my life but pretty much always on my own or in RT conversation with one or two other people. BFP is my first online community that I have truly participated in at all...I lurked very little and briefly on the other site. This whole online community is still really new to me...hell, I do well to use the computer enough (not work related) to check my emails and bank account. I'm learning though...I'm like a kid in a candy store, oh, better yet, a bibliophile in a library. Yep, that's better.

I've been out since I was 17 years old...just a couple of years now <g>, and I considered myself "lesbian" if I put a label to myself at all. As little as three years ago if someone were to call me "butch" I was immediately miffed if not outright pissed, depending upon the situation. With a limited queer community and the little socialization that my ex and myself did, it is no wonder that I had preconceived, societal introduced/reinforced notions about "butch". At that time I thought that "butch" meant that I wanted to be a man, either to "pass" or to transition. I thought that "butch" meant that I was not a woman. I remember once when I was in military uniform and in a civilian store someone called me "sir". Being young and stupid and yes, sigh, passive-agressive, I paid for my purchase and said "thank you, ma'am" to the male clerk. The ex of my ex used to call me a "baby butch", implying that one day I'd grow up into a "real butch" like her/him...still not sure about that person's preferred ID; we didn't talk a whole lot.

My ex and I used to play with terms such as "butchy-femme" or "femme(y)-butch" if people would ask about us/our relationship dynamic. Hmmm...as they say hindsight is 20/20...or forethought in this case. People say some cold things in the midst of the end of relationship and in the few months that it takes after the end to disengage completely (as it seems to be the case, at least for me). I remember once such conversation that my ex and I had once she learned whom I was seeing. She, my ex, said something along the lines that "she's just going to turn you into a man." Now, please don't get me wrong, I totally agree with Dreadgeek in post # 47 who said "I...look at my transmale brothers with respect and admiration. The path of transition is a gutsy and intense journey." I think that is an amazingly brave and wonderful thing to do...if that is what a person wants/feels the need/drive to do. I will, and DO, support my friends and family that desire to take that journey.

With a nod to Wildcat who states in post #50..."I'm happy with who I am. I don't mind whoever anyone wants. I'm not going to be "molded" or disrespected though, sorry. Uh, uh. I don't fit into a "category", I'm too complex and diverse. And I love my masculine side(s) as well - just as well." Perhaps to the chagrin of my ex, my current lover has not "turned me into a man". If anything she has done nothing more than simply allow me to discover my true self...the same self that I have always been. Dreadgeek said, "it took a long time for me to become comfortable with being a butch woman". It has taken me a while as well but...

I claim wholeheartedly "BUTCH WOMAN". I am a butch woman when I am in my faded jeans, oversize sweater, leather gloves and well-worn, broke-in military issue boots and crawling underneath the house to lay insulation to protect the pipes from the cold air "on the mountain". I am a butch woman when I take her car into be serviced because I'm not really sure about the whole oil changing thing. I am a butch woman when I jack up that same car, rip off the tire, sling in the truck and haul it off to be fixed. I am a butch woman when I doing laundry and folding her nightgowns. I am a butch woman when I run outside after seeing a vacuuming a snake (I swear it was at least 6ft long--she says maybe 4inches) and she has to empty out the cannister to let the anaconda slither away. I am a butch woman swinging an axe or weilding a chainsaw. I am a butch woman when I am on my knees sucking her cock.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS POST! I don't think I've ever felt such "joy" reading a post. (Beau once posted a video of "the many looks of butches" that actually teared me up - that was pretty special!!) :cheer:

I am "fairly new to this online community" as well. I started out first on the other site (might be the same one you lurked about in), and after about 6 months of becoming a member finally was able to post. SO WELCOME! And congratulations!!

There are so many good people here. (Well, everywhere.) There will always be some controversy. I can't even get along with my own "blood" relatives half the time! This is family here to many of us, through the good times along with any rough patches.
___

My heart is SO much lighter for having read this, I cannot tell you!!! It's been awhile... I think I will read this again.


WILDCAT
:cheesy:

(f)

[Unndunn]

I've been gone from this site for the past few days dealing with real time things. I was hoping that this might be a thread where female ID butches could have a sense of community and support with each other. It hasn't turned out that way, in my opinion, but I am still hopeful that it can happen on this site.

I'm not knocking the discussions that have taken place here, but they are not for me.

[christie]

I've been gone from this site for the past few days dealing with real time things. I was hoping that this might be a thread where female ID butches could have a sense of community and support with each other. It hasn't turned out that way, in my opinion, but I am still hopeful that it can happen on this site.

I'm not knocking the discussions that have taken place here, but they are not for me.

Unndunn,

While I am not butch, this is a topic very dear to my heart. What type of conversations would you like to see?

I ask with sincerity since my experience with online communities has been more of the underlying pressure to be masculine ID'd...

Best,
Christie

[MainelyButch]

Personally, I think this entire thread has been pretty interesting. Reading every post I could see the similarity to my own experience of the having to only identify as "female identified butch" being pretty much an on-line experience. In "real life" there's never been any question that I am female I guess. Although I present as very masculine and thus very butch, I guess people still understood I am a woman. It's funny how online this is not the case, but I am sure that this is because we cannot "see" each other in the same way as we do in "real life". so we have to distinguish things like being female or male identified.

I have always identified fully as a woman, and until about 3 yrs. ago I didn't generally use the word "butch" even to identify. And although I've always been in what anyone would call "butch-femme" relationships, I just claimed my lesbian status and left it at that....perhaps this is part of the "identity closet" we sometimes crawl into for sake of not turning the applecart upside down in our worlds. Although I have always been very masculine in my appearance, demeanor and attitude, I just never adopted the title "butch". but once I did I felt very freed from many constraints of being simply "lesbian". I had always felt that I was more masculine than many of my "mainstream" (for lack of a better word) community lesbians, those who simply rode that center line. Hey, we are all different, all individuals, and all have our own unique identities. I have found that "Butch" is the very best term for me and I use it proudly now that I understand.

I am interested in knowing if others feel the "closet" feeling about being Butch? What I mean is that there are things in our lives that we tend to mask and keep in our personal "closets". Not saying we are closeted about being LGBT at all, but that we tend to keep certain aspects of ourselves in little closets for the sake of not having to deal with being who we really ARE and upsetting someone. This happens many times within the constraints of family gatherings for me...or it used to until I just said "ya know, I am a butch lesbian and people who are in my life will either accept it or not." and I came out of that identity closet. I have found personally that my friends and family are more relieved than anything else now that I have found my identity to be comfortable and am really "out of the closet" about it. Anyone else have this kind of experience?

Awesome thread. I hope to see more topics surrounding putting the female in Female-Identified also. There was another post (by Linus) that had a bunch of interesting questions directed at someone, but that we could take on in this thread too, which would be interesting to know and share.

[Unndunn]

Unndunn,

While I am not butch, this is a topic very dear to my heart. What type of conversations would you like to see?

I ask with sincerity since my experience with online communities has been more of the underlying pressure to be masculine ID'd...

Best,
Christie

I'd like to see a thread or (gasp) even a site where female ID'd butches could actually talk and give each other support about the unique issues we face. It never happens because the conversations always become drowned out by people with other ID's asking us to prove what we say, or telling us that we aren't different, don't have it as hard as they do, etc.

I've never been a separatist, but after seeing attempt after attempt to talk about what it's like to be a female identified butch end up crashing and burning I am starting to feel more strongly about needing a safer place to talk. I'm a butch woman. I want to talk to other butch women and/or female ID'd butches. I just don't understand why that's got to be so hard. One thing I am sure of is that I'm not going to engage with people who don't respect me. I'll speak up and speak my mind when I feel the need, but I'm never going to jump through any hoops setup to make me defend my existence, uniqueness, or my right to have an equal voice.

[Linus]

There was another post (by Linus) that had a bunch of interesting questions directed at someone, but that we could take on in this thread too, which would be interesting to know and share.

If you want to (or any other female-ID butch), please do. I do meet, from time to time, female-ID butches. I would like to be able to give them some suggestions to start if they are looking for some resource, guidance, etc. This isn't something I can give them but if I can point them somewhere I think that is worthwhile.

[apretty]

I'd like to see a thread or (gasp) even a site where female ID'd butches could actually talk and give each other support about the unique issues we face. It never happens because the conversations always become drowned out by people with other ID's asking us to prove what we say, or telling us that we aren't different, don't have it as hard as they do, etc.

I've never been a separatist, but after seeing attempt after attempt to talk about what it's like to be a female identified butch end up crashing and burning I am starting to feel more strongly about needing a safer place to talk. I'm a butch woman. I want to talk to other butch women and/or female ID'd butches. I just don't understand why that's got to be so hard. One thing I am sure of is that I'm not going to engage with people who don't respect me. I'll speak up and speak my mind when I feel the need, but I'm never going to jump through any hoops setup to make me defend my existence, uniqueness, or my right to have an equal voice.

i just wanted to say that i hear you. and yes, it is hard but i believe it's important work (to be heard)--no matter your identity*. (and this is not to take away from your female-identity--just as one member of this community to another--and with that i will sidestep on outta this butch space.)

[Unndunn]

i just wanted to say that i hear you. and yes, it is hard but i believe it's important work (to be heard)--no matter your identity*. (and this is not to take away from your female-identity--just as one member of this community to another--and with that i will sidestep on outta this butch space.)

Thank you, Pretty, I appreciate your post, and get that you are being supportive. That's always a good thing.

[IttyBittyFem]

I'd like to see a thread or (gasp) even a site where female ID'd butches could actually talk and give each other support about the unique issues we face. It never happens because the conversations always become drowned out by people with other ID's asking us to prove what we say, or telling us that we aren't different, don't have it as hard as they do, etc.

I've never been a separatist, but after seeing attempt after attempt to talk about what it's like to be a female identified butch end up crashing and burning I am starting to feel more strongly about needing a safer place to talk. I'm a butch woman. I want to talk to other butch women and/or female ID'd butches. I just don't understand why that's got to be so hard. One thing I am sure of is that I'm not going to engage with people who don't respect me. I'll speak up and speak my mind when I feel the need, but I'm never going to jump through any hoops setup to make me defend my existence, uniqueness, or my right to have an equal voice.


:goodpost:

Why my dear Unn .... You're makin' me swoon!!!! :cheer: :sparklyheart:

I too, would like to encourage female identified Butches to have a place to feel safe, to know how much you're adored, admired and embraced.

Y'all make my heart go pitty patter:sparklyheart::heartbeat:

[christie]

I'd like to see a thread or (gasp) even a site where female ID'd butches could actually talk and give each other support about the unique issues we face. It never happens because the conversations always become drowned out by people with other ID's asking us to prove what we say, or telling us that we aren't different, don't have it as hard as they do, etc.

I've never been a separatist, but after seeing attempt after attempt to talk about what it's like to be a female identified butch end up crashing and burning I am starting to feel more strongly about needing a safer place to talk. I'm a butch woman. I want to talk to other butch women and/or female ID'd butches. I just don't understand why that's got to be so hard. One thing I am sure of is that I'm not going to engage with people who don't respect me. I'll speak up and speak my mind when I feel the need, but I'm never going to jump through any hoops setup to make me defend my existence, uniqueness, or my right to have an equal voice.

I completely understand the need for women only space. I'm hopeful that all who have felt "drowned" will find breathing room here.

Looking forward to hearing things from this perspective :)

[BullDog]

Unndunn, I certainly understand your frustrations- I have been right there with you. I do think it can be different here at this site because I feel the owners and moderators here do understand the issues that female/woman identified butches face as well as the history of what has occurred elsewhere. I think they have already stepped up to the plate by creating this thread, the preferred pronouns, and the moderation that has taken place.

I have been frustrated by some of what has happened here, as well as by what appears to me to still be an overall lack of understanding by the butch femme community at large, but I am hopeful things can be different here- thank you to Jack, Medusa and the Moderators.

Also, Unndunn, I am certainly open to having convos elsewhere as well if some are more comfortable with that. Great to see you here!

[WILDCAT]

Imagine that!

PLEASE COME BACK FEMALE ID'd BUTCHES... (even if you never had to say that, until online with the community)!

Well, and on this thread then, just once... would ya have to even consider writing it - I would think... should be all it would take, anyway.
(:police: Officer Cat, tips hat back. :giggle:)

Oh, oh... I might be in one of those "moods". :watereyes: REFLECTING!! (Look out, those who dislike that of me... and please keep that private?, thank you! :eyebat: PM to not disrupt thread I mean, if you wish.)

Really, I would like to take this opportunity to discuss "my use of the L-word". I had a point to make, I am very grateful that I was able, (it's important to me, so very personal), and if anyone else needs or wants to - marvelous. However, I understand Jack did not necessarily mean that as any focus for this thread start.

Thus, I would like to state that I respect that all butches, and WIB butches do NOT use that term to self describe. SO, I would hope that any of us do not make this assumption. Many of the "bulls, stones" and such do not, for example! Doesn't mean I am a "lightweight" (?), or a TWEENER either! (Oh, that T-word here has been used in such negative ways at times. Very cool to those of you who enjoy that word described for yourself. And I respect if you choose a word like that for self-describing. It's a bit offensive personally to this ol' butch though!)

:missing:

Likewise, a derail of sorts, but femmes or queer feminine women do NOT always self refer as lesbians. That too, needs to be respected. In fact, some really dislike it. I just want to make that a distinguished difference here, of MY opinion - that, although I don't walk around introducing myself, as "female, lesbian, etc...", (or man, boi, either for that matter...) we all have different descriptors and even if I feel proud of where I am and why, these descriptors do NOT FIT everyone - and I want to respect ALL for "yours". Just to have mine respected as well, would mean a great deal to me though.

Nope, I don't respesent ALL FIB's. OK, think I am clear now with this. No intention of derailing this thread in any fashion, honest.

"Hi Jack"! (Don't say THAT on a crowded airplane, eh!)

Otherwise, "hey ya damn dyke", or "ya fucking queer" is just fine with me!! (Coming from one of our own that is...)
______

OK! How's everyone'e football team doing this season? My Steelers are BLOWING it. Oh, not into football? Anyone else besides ME behind on their firewood - and now it's "December"? Not to stereotype anyone of us. Any good knitters out there? Make your own winter caps/hats?

And happy December everyone!
__

I think this thread has gone fairly well. Perhaps a few bumps in the road, but like Bull Dog stated, I'm attributing an awareness to keep the focus maintained for all of the threads, and/in the community at large - even with all of our differences... for the "peace".

Thanks "site starters" - and everyone for THAT.

The holiday season is often a friendly and happy time for many too.

I think this site did seem to begin at a "destined" kind of time. (Magical, things sometimes appear to be.)
:sparklyheart:
__

And pretty cool, we do share a HUGE COMMON bond. Huh?

Just sayin'...

So,please come back and share/play, I just wanted to make sure I didn't scare off folks with some of my particular expressions and wishes. Again, they do NOT fit "everyone" who is female identified as a butch.

Also have some cool bro's, "hellooo out there"!! Thank you for your support and understanding. (I'm sure if it came down to a town ruckus somewhere :slapfight:, we would all have each other's backs, yes?!! Of course we would!)

:weightlifter:

WILDCAT

:byebye:

*So, mostly silly mood I am in right now. Kinda. Oh, thanks to the "femmes" who love us. You are welcome to say that! :playingcat:

**Not "selling out" here - not to be concerned (some of my "humor"), just being inclusive in thought and spirit as I wish for all to be.
___

*** Now wondering if anything has been written since I've last checked - about an hour ago and hoping that this still "fits" into the scheme of things. (Do we lose our post here if we hit the "refresher" botton"? Curious, will try that sometime.) OK, here goes.

****Good evening everyone! Oh, thanks for the "thank you's", or you're welcome!

*****Must shut off TV while writing. How about that Tiger Woods saga? It sounds perfectly normal to me. (The wife DID use a golf club.) Shrug...

[bonne-maman]

Wildcat's silly mood and free usage of smileytypes has inspired me to post. Just have to say that I have been reading this thread all along, and want to say I hope all of you female IDed butches might still be able to find safe space here on this thread, or perhaps start (once again) a fresh thread. I am a big fan of any type of butch that walks the planet, and femaled IDed butches are precious to me for many reasons.

love, love, love from bonne

:goodscore:


:walking-poodle:

[BullDog]

I am still rolling over Hi Jack (remember not to take Wildcat into a crowded plane or theater).

If there is anyone online who can bring a smile to my face or get me to literally LOL it's Wildcat.

Some of us may seem a tad bit edgy... well we have been through the wars, particularly online elsewhere. I do like the new digs. I am feelin the support from the powers that be, as I would think all the different gender ids would.

Cousin IT is everywhere, lol, no doubt I am some people's weird cousin. LOL I am sure we can work it out.

I do think it's important for us to have our own space and hopefully we can have all-butch, cross-gender convos as well.

Peace

[WILDCAT]

Wildcat's silly mood and free usage of smileytypes has inspired me to post. Just have to say that I have been reading this thread all along, and want to say I hope all of you female IDed butches might still be able to find safe space here on this thread, or perhaps start (once again) a fresh thread. I am a big fan of any type of butch that walks the planet, and femaled IDed butches are precious to me for many reasons.

love, love, love from bonne

:goodscore:


:walking-poodle:

Aweeeeee! SHUCKERS!!!!!

:awww:

You REALLY didn't have tooooooooo. But, I LOVE IT! (Thank you!!)

I am feeling silly. I felt some kind of "break through" reading here yesterday. I'm feeling hopeful. But, "Hey, LADY... not like we can't handle our own"! (Just sayin'.) Spoken like John Wayne here, K?

:mountie:

Appreciate the support though. And sweet sentiment! And you know I'm teasin' ya here, right? Hope so, anyway. (That you know that, "I am"... teasin' ya?)

:thud:

(Do you really have a poodle? Just curious...)

[WILDCAT]

AUGHHH!!!!!!! Meredith Baxter JUST "came out" on TODAY'S EXCLUSIVE (sitting with Mat).

Three times married, with five children.

I always thought she was a "lesbian". (Her word choice this morning.) :cupid: She has a partner, FOUR years with Nancy. You here? This is an openly "gay woman". Again, their words, not mine. "OOOHHH, Nancy is a general contractor WITH A TRUCK"! Arghhh, Arghhh, Arghhhh...

What an interview. Low keyed... But, look out tabloids!! She said she did this "before the tabloids would do THEIR own take on it, AND as a political act" to help spread the word for voting and such.

So, good day queer butch women, or whatever the heck... and ALL!!


:snowysmiley:

WILD

[Boots13]

Butch in the House...

As far as Id,, I posted earlier that I know more about who I am by what I am not. I'm female, but I don't preface my life with Female Id' Butch of the Lesbian genus, derived from woman and evolving to ....?
I am me.

I've read through all of these responses. This is an emotional subject...it should be, its all about our lives and being seen. It's about knowing ourselves, and knowing the people around us. It's about community, not Castes.

But, beyond an occasional snarky post, at no time do I feel anyone was being silenced. Have I missed something?

There is so much valuable information here on who We are. Where We started. Where We are going, separately and collectively.
I would hope that there is never a Me V: Them smack down. How sad.

Antagonism (Me V Them) screams : I am better than you or I am not as good as you. When the reality is I am different than you . I hope EVERYONE can continue to share their experiences and beliefs. I love to know who we are, what we have to say. In the process I am learning too. This is valuable, pertinent information. And most importantly it is expanding my view when the opinion being voiced, or the experience being shared, is contrary to my own.


Thank you to everyone who is posting !

[Kosmo]

Okay, don't ask me how I stumbled across this on craigslist - (I was Googling, not whoring). Normally, I might not have clicked on a posting titled 'I admire butch women' had it not been in the 'men seeking women' section. Hmm, I thought. So then my hackles go up because I'm thinking there's gonna be some hate or resentment being spewed and I'm gonna flag this f*cker. (you know, "butch stole my woman" homophobic rant kinda thing, right?). So I click. And I find this, what I feel to be sincere, tribute to butch women coming from a rather unlikely source. A bisexual man. The poster doesn't reveal whether he's a biological male or an FTM.

As a heterosexual transgender guy, some of the most important validation (for me) of my masculinity and gender identity has come from men, gay or straight. Don't get me wrong - I know butch women don't go around giving a damn what men think about them and neither do I (despite my gender identity), but when it happens and it's sincere, it does mean something to me. We all want and love validation from femmes/feminine women, but I enjoy being *seen*, sincerely seen, by those we don't normally consider our fans. I appreciate praise from gay men on my appearance and I appreciate recognition from straight men who admire my abilities, for example. A compliment's a compliment, right?

So I'm wondering, as butch women who exude strength and masculinity but at the same time identify as female, how do you feel about male admiration, be it just looking up to you as a pal or a crush from a man who is attracted to masculinity? Is it validating to butch women? To butch women who are attracted to other butch and/or masculine women? To butch women who are attracted to femmes/feminine women? Is it the same coming from whomever or do you not give a damn either way? And how do you feel about what he's written?

Thanks to any who care to answer.

Here's the link: http://greensboro.craigslist.org/m4w/1471306265.html

:deepthoughts: I don't completely identify one way or the other, but I had a negative reaction to this 'ode' and I would very much like to punch the guy. Is that mean? :3butch:

[Kosmo]

:deepthoughts: I don't completely identify one way or the other, but I had a negative reaction to this 'ode' and I would very much like to punch the guy. Is that mean? :3butch:

I read it again.... :spit:

[Hudson]

:deepthoughts: I don't completely identify one way or the other, but I had a negative reaction to this 'ode' and I would very much like to punch the guy. Is that mean? :3butch:

Hey Kosmo, thanks for your response. I realize now I should have made this another thread. I don't want to derail this one. Ugh. But I do want to hear why it makes you want to punch him (if you care to explain). If anyone's interested in talking about it maybe admin can move it. I'll leave it up to this OP or any of the butch women who want to share their thoughts on it.

[Kosmo]

Hey Kosmo, thanks for your response. I realize now I should have made this another thread. I don't want to derail this one. Ugh. But I do want to hear why it makes you want to punch him (if you care to explain). If anyone's interested in talking about it maybe admin can move it. I'll leave it up to this OP or any of the butch women who want to share their thoughts on it.

Hello, Ben-Her

I care very much to explain. So many parts of the ad did. Don't know where to start. I'll take a back seat for now and let the butch women take a stab at it.

I will have to get my thoughts together on this one. So much to write....

[Hudson]

Hello, Ben-Her

I care very much to explain. So many parts of the ad did. Don't know where to start. I'll take a back seat for now and let the butch women take a stab at it.

I will have to get my thoughts together on this one. So much to write....


Thanks Kosmo. I look forward to hearing your feelings about it and those of any other butches here who care to share. :)

[WILDCAT]

Hello, Ben-Her

I care very much to explain. So many parts of the ad did. Don't know where to start. I'll take a back seat for now and let the butch women take a stab at it.
I will have to get my thoughts together on this one. So much to write....

Hi Kosmo! I'm sorry, I don't quite know you I don't believe, from your writing... Do you identify as a butch man? (Or another kind of butch, or simply just "butch"...?)

I'm curious about your responses too!

Ben-Her, is this common in Craiglist, to post such lengthy things in the personals? (Such as an "ODE" to...?) I'm not familiar with that site.

It sounds like a well thought out and written "Ode". Quite complimentary of a specific type of butch, and the "attraction to" those characteristics and all.

My "sense of humor" thought right away... "oh, must be a disgruntled employee at Craigslist". :giggle: Whatever that might mean to anyone. :blah: (Kind of like "wonder if the intention was really for dating there, or... what?) Could be a sort of political statement perhaps too, yes.

And Boots13, I don't think anyone was feeling silenced here, but can't speak for anyone else of course.

I also thought about description the way you said it, to explain easier sometimes "what I am not" about.

I totally could relate to that! Tough writing some thoughts/things out sometimes that we don't normally think of. However, I can easily say: I don't "do dresses"! I enjoy saying, that I don't cook, but my father is a wonderful chef - and did most of the meals while I was growing up living at home! And "my mother doesn't cook either... I am my mother's daughter"! (And then I am my father's daughter in so many ways as well.) Perhaps we develop such a great deal of our yin and yang from our early years at home, that parental influence - for some of us. My Dad built our house. He knew how to do anything and everything. He cries very openly when his heart is broken too, (or touched emotionally in some way like beautiful lyrics to a song). My mother helped him to build the house. She is very good with money, so she kind of got relegated to that area of their relationship over time. BUT, all major decisions are done "together" for/with/by them. And they both pay bills, and actually my mother has a separate account in addition to their joint. (Work related thing from her past.) I love it that she plays pool at the senior center with the men - and beats them. But, no other women play there, in their small little town. Heh! Maybe I'll join the center soon, and we can play each other. Well, I have played her, and she is pretty cut throat though... so I don't know.

Anyway, I know you were not just talking of "things to do" as a female butch Boots, but also accomplishments in/of the body. I used to be SO STRONG! As strong as any man I knew. I am no longer that strong, but that is for my own lack of keeping what I had developed. I bereave that loss a bit, I sure could TALK about that!!!

:knitboy: (I don't knit either, just not sure how to navigate here right now. Too many options for my OCD brain... I'm thinking.)

Looks like folks have been busy too. :dance2: Lots going on with a new site!

Well, I'm open for fun or serious conversation. Not in any kind of "INTENSE" mood though - AT ALL... at this time. (I'm not ready for winter yet even, here at my cabin.) So calm I am feeling. Oh. It's 4AM, I should go to bed.

I must :woodchop: tomorrow again, IF it's not too :cold:.

Hmmmm. What else? Slow here today... but it's the middle of the week.

Goodnight ALL,
WILDCAT

*I know this is a tad boring... and spacey. Just feeling the need to give something here to the topic. :cat:

[Kosmo]

[COLOR="Gray"]Hi Kosmo! I'm sorry, I don't quite know you I don't believe, from your writing... Do you identify as a butch man? (Or another kind of butch, or simply just "butch"...?)

I'm curious about your responses too!

<cut> :cat:

Hi Wildcat,

I am a butch. The reason I used 'butch women' was to simply follow that line of description from Ben-Her's post and the bi-sexual guy's ad. At first I wasn't sure how the bi-dude was using it. Then I thought, in his world, he might be differentiating between men and women. As Ben-Her had stated in his post, I don't know if this thread is the right place for the post. I realize, as members of a diverse community, we are welcome to contribute in any thread, but I felt this thread was a discussion/support thread for the female-identified butch. Initially, I didn't know if a discussion around a bisexual man's 'looking for a butch woman' ad on Craigslist would contribute anything relevant. I still don't know. I do think it would attract interesting comments if posted in a more general thread. My opinion only.

It is my understanding from the ad that the craigslist poster does not differentiate between a male/masculine-identified and female/feminine identified butch.

Ben-Her's question was in this thread, so my assumption is that he is asking female-identifed butches how they view the ad. I don't identify as a masculine or feminine butch. I don't know if female identified butches use the term 'butch women' or butch woman'. I don't, so I was just following the term usage in Ben-Her's post.

I am still reluctant to respond and I probably shouldn't have to begin with. I feel so strongly that it would take away from what this thread was started for.

I hope I was able to explain myself sufficiently. It really takes me awhile to get my thoughts out. I probably edited this post a dozen times. *smiles* <-------I'm too lazy to find the 'smile' smiley.

Not knowing someone sucks when all you have to go by is a post or two. Maybe someday we'll meet and get to know one another better. I would like that.

[Jackhammer]

I had to give myself time to find this place :ohm: .

I'm not going to answer what I feel is a question about being objectified by men. It bothers me in a thread for WIB. Here's why: I am GAY. I dont CARE what men think of me.

At this point Im at a loss for words.

[Hudson]

I had to give myself time to find this place :ohm: .

I'm not going to answer what I feel is a question about being objectified by men. It bothers me in a thread for WIB. Here's why: I am GAY. I dont CARE what men think of me.

At this point Im at a loss for words.


Thank you, Jackhammer. I hear you and respect your response.

[Boots13]

My disclaimer...after posting my bit on not silencing anyone I feel as though this will put my words to the test!

So I will say directly to Hudson:
I accept that posting this link was not intended as inflammatory.
I will also acknowledge that you posted it as a tribute to Butches.

But MY FEELINGS are not as logical or as immediately ambiguous.
this link has such an array of fuckedupedness that I don't even know where to begin.
this is NOT A BI-SEXUAL SITE !

Is it fucked up because it showed up in a thread FOR Female id BUTCHES , and for all intents and purpose, not Bi-Butches?

or because it was written by a man?

or was it because I was left with a feeling of Butches having been objectified by a bio male?

or was it perhaps because it smacked of Conquer the Butch?

or maybe even a hint of "one good fuck by a male and the Butch disappears"

I found it distasteful. Not because of what it said but because of who authored it (a bio male) and where it showed up(a Butch and Femme site, in a space intended for Butches) .

Inappropriate, to say the least.

[Cyclopea]

Okay, don't ask me how I stumbled across this on craigslist - (I was Googling, not whoring). Normally, I might not have clicked on a posting titled 'I admire butch women' had it not been in the 'men seeking women' section. Hmm, I thought. So then my hackles go up because I'm thinking there's gonna be some hate or resentment being spewed and I'm gonna flag this f*cker. (you know, "butch stole my woman" homophobic rant kinda thing, right?). So I click. And I find this, what I feel to be sincere, tribute to butch women coming from a rather unlikely source. A bisexual man. The poster doesn't reveal whether he's a biological male or an FTM.

As a heterosexual transgender guy, some of the most important validation (for me) of my masculinity and gender identity has come from men, gay or straight. Don't get me wrong - I know butch women don't go around giving a damn what men think about them and neither do I (despite my gender identity), but when it happens and it's sincere, it does mean something to me. We all want and love validation from femmes/feminine women, but I enjoy being *seen*, sincerely seen, by those we don't normally consider our fans. I appreciate praise from gay men on my appearance and I appreciate recognition from straight men who admire my abilities, for example. A compliment's a compliment, right?

So I'm wondering, as butch women who exude strength and masculinity but at the same time identify as female, how do you feel about male admiration, be it just looking up to you as a pal or a crush from a man who is attracted to masculinity? Is it validating to butch women? To butch women who are attracted to other butch and/or masculine women? To butch women who are attracted to femmes/feminine women? Is it the same coming from whomever or do you not give a damn either way? And how do you feel about what he's written?

Thanks to any who care to answer.

Here's the link: http://greensboro.craigslist.org/m4w/1471306265.html

OK I hope I'm getting this straight.

You were googling and ended up on "men seeking women" on craigslist.

You saw a post from a hetero seeking gender-nonconforming women, and came to a butch women thread to ask, as a straight male, how butch women feel about straight men trolling for women on craigslist.

You stated how you receive some of your most important validation from men.

You enjoy being seen by men.

You appreciate praise and recognition from men.

You wonder if gay women feel equally validated by the attention of men, and entered a space set aside for gay butch women to ask if they (we) seek and appreciate the validation of being some guy's kink.

I have to say that generally the majority of gay women, butch or femme, does not receive some of our most important validation from the sexual attraction of men.

Gay women aren't really that concerned with men.

Sure, we have our male friends and family, but no, we don't feel validation, enjoy their sexualized gaze, or especially covet or enjoy their praise and attention.

That would be a fundamental difference between your relationship with men and the average gay women's.

[WILDCAT]

I had to give myself time to find this place :ohm: .

I'm not going to answer what I feel is a question about being objectified by men. It bothers me in a thread for WIB. Here's why: I am GAY. I dont CARE what men think of me.

At this point Im at a loss for words.

Oh there ya are! Good place to go...

I will join ya in spirit!

:ohm:

Loss for words you say? It was painfully SLOW for me to type out that post of mine here... it was like pulling teeth. No, more like pulling out stripped screws - ya, that's it.

I am in shock a bit too. Uh, huh.

I just tried to write something, but had no idea of which way to proceed here. :scarytv: Took about three hours to submit! (Two scary movies I watched, and lots of mixed martial arts... )
__

So! You all keepin' warm there? Got the wood cracklin'?! What kind ya burnin'? I'm pretty good with knowing my various wood BTU's... I have not started mine up yet, for a little "maintenence" quadmire. (Stove piping length!) Still a bit miffed at my brother about this...

Sorry, for yet another "wood" derail.

Later,
WILD

Thank you for your post!! :pipe:

[Jackhammer]

Oh there ya are! Good place to go...

I will join ya in spirit!

:ohm:

Loss for words you say? It was painfully SLOW for me to type out that post of mine here... it was like pulling teeth. No, more like pulling out stripped screws - ya, that's it.

I am in shock a bit too. Uh, huh.

I just tried to write something, but had no idea of which way to proceed here. :scarytv: Took about three hours to submit! (Two scary movies I watched, and lots of mixed martial arts... )
__

So! You all keepin' warm there? Got the wood cracklin'?! What kind ya burnin'? I'm pretty good with knowing my various wood BTU's... I have not started mine up yet, for a little "maintenence" quadmire. (Stove piping length!) Still a bit miffed at my brother about this...

Sorry, for yet another "wood" derail.

Later,
WILD

Thank you for your post!! :pipe:



I'm burning ash and oak.
Lots of it:

Its in the 30s here.

:cold:

[WILDCAT]

My disclaimer...after posting my bit on not silencing anyone I feel as though this will put my words to the test!

So I will say directly to Hudson:
I accept that posting this link was not intended as inflammatory.
I will also acknowledge that you posted it as a tribute to Butches.

But MY FEELINGS are not as logical or as immediately ambiguous.
this link has such an array of fuckedupedness that I don't even know where to begin.
this is NOT A BI-SEXUAL SITE !

Is it fucked up because it showed up in a thread FOR Female id BUTCHES , and for all intents and purpose, not Bi-Butches?

or because it was written by a man?

or was it because I was left with a feeling of Butches having been objectified by a bio male?

or was it perhaps because it smacked of Conquer the Butch?

or maybe even a hint of "one good fuck by a male and the Butch disappears"

I found it distasteful. Not because of what it said but because of who authored it (a bio male) and where it showed up(a Butch and Femme site, in a space intended for Butches) .

Inappropriate, to say the least.

Oh, thanks for this Boots. I was wondering about that link/"personals ad" and the question of it "here" myself.

I also was not sure if you were referring to "silencing" in other ways (like posting responses by some, and perhaps a little scuffle-ing... or misunderstandings, what-have-you's)?

I do tend to be suspicious where there is evidence of sabotage, OR "insensitivity". HOWEVER, some folks are so darn sweet about it sometimes...

"Intention" is such a huge word for me.

I'm glad you addressed this the way in which you did here. Thank you. I'm sure there will be other thoughts on/about this as well.
__

Confused on this thread here a bit I am. It's hard to respond, know how to react, etc...

I'm not having the best night though either.

Peace all!

*WC

[WILDCAT]

I'm burning ash and oak.
Lots of it:

Its in the 30s here.

:cold:

Good hard woods to use, it seasons up so quickly.

The first year I used "ash" A LOT, I said to my partner though, then:

GEEZ, I really have to empty the "ASHes" out here more than with the "cherry, etc"... ?!

DUH! :seconddoh:

:rofl:

(I've got birch to burn coming up first here. Heavier than hell!!!)

ETA: Yes, temps to REALLY drop here, after having a lucky mild Nov.! (Did you start a wood thread yet? Perhaps we could fare well THERE?)

*Little bolt guy here, (it didn't work when I tried it this time...)

[Unndunn]

I'm burning ash and oak.
Lots of it:

Its in the 30s here.

:cold:

it's pretty warm here tonight so we don't have the woodstove going, but we've been burning cherry, oak and hickory. I love the way it smells, especially the cherry.

[Jackhammer]

I agree, we need to start a wood thread.

:woodchop:

[WILDCAT]

it's pretty warm here tonight so we don't have the woodstove going, but we've been burning cherry, oak and hickory. I love the way it smells, especially the cherry.

I have mostly used cherry throughout the years here. It is one of the nicest burning woods, in all aspects! Really wonderful to watch (especially with it's hue/coloring).

Yes, Jack - let me know when. I could talk about my wood ALL winter, hell all year long I have been talking about... "not getting it split"! And now, I'm really panicking and being BAD! (Procrastination primarily.) I have some though, ready to go.

My brother just tried to help with something last week, and now it's all fucked up. I MUST take care of this tomorrow. I've been "ignoring it" for the frustrations I feel - towards him. Hardware store drive time!

I do need a support system here though!! Could be a good motivator for me too! (And a "shoveling thread" too!! I get into it like Edward Scissorhands, quite artistic with the shovel! We could post wood pile and shoveled pathway photos, etc...)

WOOD, WOOD, WOOD!!!!!!! (SHOVEL, SHOVEL, SHOVEL!!)


:2butch:

[Hudson]

I just wanted to say that I deleted the post with the ad because like I said before, I realized this thread was the wrong place for it. (I didn't realize there's obviously no time limit here to edit or delete or I would have done it a long time ago). My intention was never to 'bait' or provoke or offend or any of that bs as has been suggested by some posts in this and other threads. The only reason I posted here was to get the opinions of the butch women gathered here, in this thread, and I felt it wasn't thread-worthy on its own. I wrote 'an ode to butch women' because it was written as a sort of ode or tribute (the style. not ALL of the content). I personally can't judge what is an acceptable 'ode' to butch women because I'm not one. And I was NOT asking if butch women cared about or welcomed sexual attraction from men as the women they are. (come on, really?) I was asking if they appreciated validation of their masculinity from a man in a nonsexual way as a peer -true recognition, not patronizing bullshit -or alternatively, in an attraction way from an effiminate/feminine man/pre-op trans woman attracted to masculinity in an attraction way. There are feminine beings in this world who were not born into female bodies and to me, their validation means the same to me. I wanted to know if butch women feel the way I do about that sort of thing, or not. That's all.

I've had some very positive exchanges (privately) with butch women who took a few minutes to tell me how they felt and listened to my intent and for that I am thankful. I couldn't see these things without asking because I'm not a butch woman. Fact is, I bristled at the same things they did but I wondered if I was being homophobic or unfair to the female in butches. I've read similar 'tributes' to butches written by femmes that made me cringe because they felt feminizing or objectifying in ways that didn't seem right to me but I realized that was unfair too. Anyway, I thought we might both value a specific type of recognition of our masculinity, but we don't and that's what I wanted to know. If anyone else would like to PM me, feel free so this thread doesn't get derailed again. (I'm not trying to silence here -talk about it all you want -but I realized it was the wrong thread and I wanted to clean up before I left so to speak. Thanks for listening.

[Jess]

I just wanted to say that I deleted the post with the ad because like I said before, I realized this thread was the wrong place for it. (I didn't realize there's obviously no time limit here to edit or delete or I would have done it a long time ago). My intention was never to 'bait' or provoke or offend or any of that bs as has been suggested by some posts in this and other threads. The only reason I posted here was to get the opinions of the butch women gathered here, in this thread, and I felt it wasn't thread-worthy on its own. I wrote 'an ode to butch women' because it was written as a sort of ode or tribute (the style. not ALL of the content). I personally can't judge what is an acceptable 'ode' to butch women because I'm not one. And I was NOT asking if butch women cared about or welcomed sexual attraction from men as the women they are. (come on, really?) I was asking if they appreciated validation of their masculinity from a man in a nonsexual way as a peer -true recognition, not patronizing bullshit -or alternatively, in an attraction way from an effiminate/feminine man/pre-op trans woman attracted to masculinity in an attraction way. There are feminine beings in this world who were not born into female bodies and to me, their validation means the same to me. I wanted to know if butch women feel the way I do about that sort of thing, or not. That's all.

I've had some very positive exchanges (privately) with butch women who took a few minutes to tell me how they felt and listened to my intent and for that I am thankful. I couldn't see these things without asking because I'm not a butch woman. Fact is, I bristled at the same things they did but I wondered if I was being homophobic or unfair to the female in butches. I've read similar 'tributes' to butches written by femmes that made me cringe because they felt feminizing or objectifying in ways that didn't seem right to me but I realized that was unfair too. Anyway, I thought we might both value a specific type of recognition of our masculinity, but we don't and that's what I wanted to know. If anyone else would like to PM me, feel free so this thread doesn't get derailed again. (I'm not trying to silence here -talk about it all you want -but I realized it was the wrong thread and I wanted to clean up before I left so to speak. Thanks for listening.


I think the ways we choose to see ourselves and the way we feel others see us may be a thread worthy topic. I am still digesting the words written in the "ode" and have some feelings about it both in addition to and in a different view than some of those that have been shared.
When I am able to be more cohesive in thought ( still on first cup of coffee) I may add... Here or there> ( if a new thread starts)

Thanks for something else to consider.
Jess

[BullDog]

Hudson, to answer this question: I was asking if they appreciated validation of their masculinity from a man in a nonsexual way as a peer.

My answer is no. I personally could care less what men think about my masculinity and don't believe there are very many who understand it. I am a lesbian/queer masculine female- it has nothing to do with men.

I also don't think that ad was appreciating butch women in a nonsexual, peer kind of way. Quite the opposite.

Once again, this thread is intended for female/woman identified butches to talk about our own experiences and on topics that are of interest to us. If you have questions I think it would be better to start another thread so that this one doesn't continue to get derailed. Thanks.

[WILDCAT]

... I LURVE YOU BULLY!!!!!! (Said like Jim Carrey Cable Guy character when he presses his "teat" up against the prison glass to the Mathew Broderick character: "I LOVE YOU BIILLLLYYYY".)
Yeah, Ben Stiller directed this! Did you know that?
:awww:



Mountain Wild Drumcat

:drummer:


*Good day fellow queers!! I be runnin' me some errands today!!!!!!!!!! (Hardware store too!!!! :clap:)

[Beau]

I believe that just because I don't fit society's view of what "female" is does not mean I can't be "woman".

I'm all "female"; I am "woman" -- independent, strong, direct, and determined. Understanding, owning, and enjoying my female masculinity doesn't preclude me from being authentically female.

The putting of "female" into butch for me was, and remains, the primary ingredient. It's how I learned what "butch" was as I earned the recognition of my "butch" self from a society that can't see beyond the binary.

just another female who has to shave my face,
Beau

[Stoney]

Soooooo......can a dyke like me jump in or what???? I swear I have been reading this thread for days just trying to refrain from posting. I also followed some of these posters that have been posting to start crap..... very interesting..... Spys perhaps??...... lol well yeah , I have been here about a week and I have to say Jack and Medusa thank you, I feel your intentions are great. I hope it all works out.

I dont really know though still.. if I belong here either, although butch womyn and moderators have continuously got the convo back on track it still goes on, it is still just a womon's only thread.

I still see the same defences and attacks just a little less comspictious and the same attitudes of people who come in to rile people.

I dont know about everyone but Im sick of fighting with men , I dont give a damn if they used to be women, if they are women who adress themselves as men I dont care, if you are acting like a chauvonist asshole Im sick of fighting with you, Im sick of explaining to you how I feel, Im sick of defending my feminine body and my feminine attitude. Im sick of calling myself a butch " womon" becuse I have to just to separate myself from you! Im sick of having to fight about being butch at all, Im a fuckin tough ass dyke who tries my best to tolerate men and only offers respect if it is given to me. Thats the bottom line....


I want a safe place to celebrate my female energy... I want to empower other womyn and be empowered by my sisters .

How could anyone ever feel empowered while this is going on.

Unfortunately this is not a female I'd ed safe Zone....

and think about it..... this is only one thread.


damn,

Stoney

[QueenofQueens]

Hey Stoney,

I'm speaking to you as a moderator, to be clear. This is just a general reminder, not a formal warning.
I understand that you're feeling frustrated, and you have every right to express your feelings, but in the future, please try to express them in a way that is respectful of all community members. Referring to other community members as a "spys" is simply not acceptable. To do so is ultimately divisive and not community building. We all have a place here and all are welcome as long as we are respectful toward one another.
Please know that we are all doing our very best to ensure that this absolutely is safe space for female id'ed butches to have this very important conversation.

~QoQ

[Stoney]

Hey Stoney,

I'm speaking to you as a moderator, to be clear. This is just a general reminder, not a formal warning.
I understand that you're feeling frustrated, and you have every right to express your feelings, but in the future, please try to express them in a way that is respectful of all community members. Referring to other community members as a "spys" is simply not acceptable. To do so is ultimately divisive and not community building. We all have a place here and all are welcome as long as we are respectful toward one another.
Please know that we are all doing our very best to ensure that this absolutely is safe space for female id'ed butches to have this very important conversation.

~QoQ


All you heard me say was the thing about spys????....

Man, that was a joke ( hence the lol after....) I didnt mention one name ....


sigh.....


Sorry

[hippieflowergirl]

Imagine that!

PLEASE COME BACK FEMALE ID'd BUTCHES... (even if you never had to say that, until online with the community)!

Well, and on this thread then, just once... would ya have to even consider writing it - I would think... should be all it would take, anyway.
(:police: Officer Cat, tips hat back. :giggle:)

Oh, oh... I might be in one of those "moods". :watereyes: REFLECTING!! (Look out, those who dislike that of me... and please keep that private?, thank you! :eyebat: PM to not disrupt thread I mean, if you wish.)

Really, I would like to take this opportunity to discuss "my use of the L-word". I had a point to make, I am very grateful that I was able, (it's important to me, so very personal), and if anyone else needs or wants to - marvelous. However, I understand Jack did not necessarily mean that as any focus for this thread start.

Thus, I would like to state that I respect that all butches, and WIB butches do NOT use that term to self describe. SO, I would hope that any of us do not make this assumption. Many of the "bulls, stones" and such do not, for example! Doesn't mean I am a "lightweight" (?), or a TWEENER either! (Oh, that T-word here has been used in such negative ways at times. Very cool to those of you who enjoy that word described for yourself. And I respect if you choose a word like that for self-describing. It's a bit offensive personally to this ol' butch though!)

:missing:

Likewise, a derail of sorts, but femmes or queer feminine women do NOT always self refer as lesbians. That too, needs to be respected. In fact, some really dislike it. I just want to make that a distinguished difference here, of MY opinion - that, although I don't walk around introducing myself, as "female, lesbian, etc...", (or man, boi, either for that matter...) we all have different descriptors and even if I feel proud of where I am and why, these descriptors do NOT FIT everyone - and I want to respect ALL for "yours". Just to have mine respected as well, would mean a great deal to me though.

Nope, I don't respesent ALL FIB's. OK, think I am clear now with this. No intention of derailing this thread in any fashion, honest.

"Hi Jack"! (Don't say THAT on a crowded airplane, eh!)

Otherwise, "hey ya damn dyke", or "ya fucking queer" is just fine with me!! (Coming from one of our own that is...)
______

OK! How's everyone'e football team doing this season? My Steelers are BLOWING it. Oh, not into football? Anyone else besides ME behind on their firewood - and now it's "December"? Not to stereotype anyone of us. Any good knitters out there? Make your own winter caps/hats?

And happy December everyone!
__

I think this thread has gone fairly well. Perhaps a few bumps in the road, but like Bull Dog stated, I'm attributing an awareness to keep the focus maintained for all of the threads, and/in the community at large - even with all of our differences... for the "peace".

Thanks "site starters" - and everyone for THAT.

The holiday season is often a friendly and happy time for many too.

I think this site did seem to begin at a "destined" kind of time. (Magical, things sometimes appear to be.)
:sparklyheart:
__

And pretty cool, we do share a HUGE COMMON bond. Huh?

Just sayin'...

So,please come back and share/play, I just wanted to make sure I didn't scare off folks with some of my particular expressions and wishes. Again, they do NOT fit "everyone" who is female identified as a butch.

Also have some cool bro's, "hellooo out there"!! Thank you for your support and understanding. (I'm sure if it came down to a town ruckus somewhere :slapfight:, we would all have each other's backs, yes?!! Of course we would!)

:weightlifter:

WILDCAT

:byebye:

*So, mostly silly mood I am in right now. Kinda. Oh, thanks to the "femmes" who love us. You are welcome to say that! :playingcat:

**Not "selling out" here - not to be concerned (some of my "humor"), just being inclusive in thought and spirit as I wish for all to be.
___

*** Now wondering if anything has been written since I've last checked - about an hour ago and hoping that this still "fits" into the scheme of things. (Do we lose our post here if we hit the "refresher" botton"? Curious, will try that sometime.) OK, here goes.

****Good evening everyone! Oh, thanks for the "thank you's", or you're welcome!

*****Must shut off TV while writing. How about that Tiger Woods saga? It sounds perfectly normal to me. (The wife DID use a golf club.) Shrug...

(looking around to make sure i'm not flashing traffic because my ignorance is hanging out)


erm...what does "tweener" mean?


:dimbulb:

[Stoney]

Wild Cat..........Im back.......

(Im back primarily to get some of whatever that good stuff is you been smokin') hehe

plus I miss ya all!


'specially u,ya damn dyke!


Stoney

[LieslKate]

(looking around to make sure i'm not flashing traffic because my ignorance is hanging out)


erm...what does "tweener" mean?


:dimbulb:

Tweener... someone who ID's as neither Femme or Butch but some where inbetween... encompassing both ! aka Andro from Androgenous ! or Futch... Femmie Butch or Bemme... Butchie Femme !

:readfineprint: :praying: PC :police: :deepthoughts: :princess:

[Jess]

Tweener... someone who ID's as neither Femme or Butch but some where inbetween... encompassing both ! aka Andro from Androgenous ! or Futch... Femmie Butch or Bemme... Butchie Femme !

:readfineprint: :praying: PC :police: :deepthoughts: :princess:


also, genderfuckt, genderneither, gendersexual... any number of "today's" vocabulary could describe " tweener".

Another subject: I don't know where to put this, but it seems an open forum, so let's have a go...

Personally, I see way too many of today's youth "playing" with gender ( what I term " gender-tourism") and later wanting to undo what they have done to their bodies. What we used to do with ink/ tats, they are doing with hormones. It's one thing to toy with superficial changes. It is totally another to screw your body around on a molecular level.

I also feel, that they almost negate the groundbreaking / life-changing work their predecessors laid before them. Trans folks truly struggled and still do so, to find a place to be themselves. So many kids today have easy access to hormones that it appears to make little difference to them. It's almost as if they "want to be more butch" so they hook up.

I have tried for years to remain silent about this, but it sickens me. Changing yourself on a hormonal level is not something easily undone. Attempting to become "more butch" and then becoming a "man" and then expecting lesbians to " get it" , is not something easily undertaken. When someone becomes a different gender than their family/ friends were used to.. "knew".. " understood" they become a different person. Perhaps, not internally at first, but eventually, even that will and does change.

I don't understand people who totally change their lives and then expect everyone around them to "accept" it. What I can accept and support is your right to change. What I can't accept, is your insistence that I am ok with it.

I'm not exactly sure where this came from.. other than it has been brewing a long time. I'm not sure why it chose this thread to come out in, other than the whole "labeling" of persons just slays me and this thread has seemed to try to deal with a lot of it.

I unabashedly apologize if this has offended anyone. I am just reaching a point with it all, that I want to reach out and say... "it's really ok to be who you are." Period. Let folks catch up with you. Don't change "you" to be better with "them". You ARE that special. I am that special. I am a female bodied masculine person and I rock.

You rock too.

[Stoney]

Nice post Jess ... I feel you, it does concern me how easily it seems for the younger folks to play the hormone game with their bodies. I do realize times are different, and people are more free to decide their own persona as well as gender . I sometimes wonder if it is because young people are more familiarized and accepting of gender issues and homosexuality or because the feel pressure to wedge themselves into a gender category to feel they belong somewhere.

Growing up (im now 46) changing gender wasn't really an option, I mean, It was out there Im sure, but most trans people seemed to do their best to hide their " secret" back then,
when I was in Girls Training School ( yep I was a hellion) I remember this Mexican girl who could barely speak English but used to tell me, " when I have enough money , I will become a man" she used to say " you too, chica... you will be a man too, cause you and I we are the same, you know?" back then I didnt have one clue what she was talking about (it was like 1978)

I often wonder about her and if she ever changed her mind or if she did change.

I am not devaluing a persons decicision to transition but I do feel that , (now Im not trying to make anyone mad here) it has in some cases become a means to disgard what we have been givin to work with in the journey to find our trueselves. It has always been my belief that everything happens for a reason, My friend Maria was wrong, I am not a man, and I dont want to become one, I am thankful because of the day and age I grew up, I had alot of problems , in trouble, sexual abuse, highly disfunctional family life, many headaches and obstacles growing up and accepting who I was.
If the option was available to change my identity, back when I did not feel loved or accepted by anyone I might have made a grave mistake to escape the challenge of realizing I was worthworthwhile as a human being, not as a man or a woman.

I remember thinking while I was in my cell, If I was a man , this shit would not have happened to me, if I was a man, people would listen to what I was saying, if I was a man I could better protect myself, if I was a man I could be equal.

but like I said , I never knew there was such a thing as a sex change.

Honestly Im glad I didnt.

[TIMBERWOLF]

Whew!! This thread has been like on a roller coaster.....Guess this old Butch outta jump in here.Hummmm, I'm like coming up on those double nichols this yr and I remember back in the 60's when the big thing was Christine Jorgensen's story came out (or at least i remembered it) I thought Hey that's what I want to change and be a guy so I can get girls and take care of them so to keep them away from all the guys that abused them. I always knew I was different(masculine) then say my sister, with her nails painted and flirting with the boys. Thank my Great Spirit, that my Mom and Dad didn't make it a rule that we had to do what sex we were. I was a tomboy, i played with the boys and i got boy toys.I played softball from 3rd grade into college, with my dad helping me practice every day after his work. He took me to all my college games and provided Gatorade for the team and I know he knew they were all Dykes. My mom had so many friends that were gay and lesbian I thought it was the norm.As i started growing older I realized i wasn't anything more than a Butch Lesbian. I have Gentleman quality's but still I'm female ID Butch Lesbian. My Fiance is a very femme Lesbian,the other side of me.As far as men complementing on how I am I still take it as a complement. We have a lot of gay men that love us and yes we even kiss and hug each other. Its called respect for who they are and who we are.Neither one of us hate or dislike men.Yeah some as real A-hole's but you find that in any gender.
It's nice to be able to come to site as this one and meet all aspects of people,gender ID,and have talks about who we are and how we live our lives day by day. We all face hardships every day with who we are. I now have had to "soften" my look in the Medical field just to hold a job, not that Im not a good worker but I have been judged by my looks and who I "might be", A Butch woman. To that it seems like I threaten the str8 world. I took a chance and took my partner as a "friend,roommate" to my Christmas party, I lost my job after about a month because they said I just didn't "fit in". Its ok , Im looking again. My last job in Dallas I was out and no one cared and they would even come to me with gay/lesbian issues with our patients. I started a group for GLBT patients because we had so many that would come to my office and talk to me. I know even though Im a Lesbian Butch I am loved in my family, with my friends,and even the str8 friends, because they know me as a loving soul and can be a true friend without regards to my sexuality.
I love these threads and I know I don't post as often as some Im still here.....:eatinghersheybar::gimmehug:
TIMBER

[Jett]

Tweener... someone who ID's as neither Femme or Butch but some where inbetween... encompassing both ! aka Andro from Androgenous ! or Futch... Femmie Butch or Bemme... Butchie Femme !

:readfineprint: :praying: PC :police: :deepthoughts: :princess:

I don't agree, I've seen many butches that were undeniably androgynous but were far from "tweener" as in "neither butch or femme but somewhere in-between"... they were very butch.

Also just peeps who show many physical (and or mental) androgynous characteristics and do not ID as anything even related to butch or femme... or those who self ID as an Androgyne as an identity on it's own in a gender sense, complete in that alone. Unlike tweener which seems dependent on what it's in between, butch and femme... and I think it's that simple.

But then again if you're a tweener I certainly won't argue if you describing yourself, but I haven't found what you said to be true for others who use the terms that you described here as being somehow interchangeable.

[Sunny]

I have been reading this thread and I saw this post mentoning a Christmas party at work. I wanted to share my experience as a Butch in a mostly str-8 Christmas party. I am not out at work because I feel it would not be accepted. I feel people can think what they want.
So I am sitting with my friend (a Femme who found me at work long story) and sitting across from us is a woman who identifys as a Lesbian. She is out at work and much younger then I am. Also she does not hold the same position with the company as I do so she is able to feel a little more free to not worry about what people think. She came as a "date" with a str-8 woman who has slept with her but is going out with a male employee in another part of our company. She could not bring him because he is married and not yet divorced from his wife. Am I rambling here? Hope I did not lose anyone yet. LOL
Anyway, this woman proceeded to get drunk and carry on with any str-8 woman that would indulge her. Such as grinding on the dance floor with them or at their table with them. These other str-8 woman had their male dates that they brought with them and those guys just sat at the tables all night and watched all of these activities. I thought the way she handled herself was totally disrepectful of everyone that was there and I felt as a gay person she gave gay people a bad rap for her behaviour. After the party the next day nothing happened to her not even a reprimand. So when I read that you were let go for just bringing your date. I was very surprised.
I on the other hand had all the woman that wanted to dance and thier husbands did not want to come and beg me all night to dance with them. Including the Boss's wife. Which I felt vey uncomfortable with because she was hanging all over me.
So anyway I wanted to say the younger generation is much more free with everything. When I grew up I had to hide my indentity or I would not be employed. I am very masculine in my demeanor and that is just me. I am called sir alot by people who do not really look at me. Then on further examination they realize I am not a guy.
Thank you for indulging my rambling. This only the second thread I have responded to.

Sunny

Whew!! This thread has been like on a roller coaster.....Guess this old Butch outta jump in here.Hummmm, I'm like coming up on those double nichols this yr and I remember back in the 60's when the big thing was Christine Jorgensen's story came out (or at least i remembered it) I thought Hey that's what I want to change and be a guy so I can get girls and take care of them so to keep them away from all the guys that abused them. I always knew I was different(masculine) then say my sister, with her nails painted and flirting with the boys. Thank my Great Spirit, that my Mom and Dad didn't make it a rule that we had to do what sex we were. I was a tomboy, i played with the boys and i got boy toys.I played softball from 3rd grade into college, with my dad helping me practice every day after his work. He took me to all my college games and provided Gatorade for the team and I know he knew they were all Dykes. My mom had so many friends that were gay and lesbian I thought it was the norm.As i started growing older I realized i wasn't anything more than a Butch Lesbian. I have Gentleman quality's but still I'm female ID Butch Lesbian. My Fiance is a very femme Lesbian,the other side of me.As far as men complementing on how I am I still take it as a complement. We have a lot of gay men that love us and yes we even kiss and hug each other. Its called respect for who they are and who we are.Neither one of us hate or dislike men.Yeah some as real A-hole's but you find that in any gender.
It's nice to be able to come to site as this one and meet all aspects of people,gender ID,and have talks about who we are and how we live our lives day by day. We all face hardships every day with who we are. I now have had to "soften" my look in the Medical field just to hold a job, not that Im not a good worker but I have been judged by my looks and who I "might be", A Butch woman. To that it seems like I threaten the str8 world. I took a chance and took my partner as a "friend,roommate" to my Christmas party, I lost my job after about a month because they said I just didn't "fit in". Its ok , Im looking again. My last job in Dallas I was out and no one cared and they would even come to me with gay/lesbian issues with our patients. I started a group for GLBT patients because we had so many that would come to my office and talk to me. I know even though Im a Lesbian Butch I am loved in my family, with my friends,and even the str8 friends, because they know me as a loving soul and can be a true friend without regards to my sexuality.
I love these threads and I know I don't post as often as some Im still here.....:eatinghersheybar::gimmehug:
TIMBER

[AtLast]

I believe that just because I don't fit society's view of what "female" is does not mean I can't be "woman".

I'm all "female"; I am "woman" -- independent, strong, direct, and determined. Understanding, owning, and enjoying my female masculinity doesn't preclude me from being authentically female.

The putting of "female" into butch for me was, and remains, the primary ingredient. It's how I learned what "butch" was as I earned the recognition of my "butch" self from a society that can't see beyond the binary.

just another female who has to shave my face,
Beau



Oh, how this speaks to me! But not to everyone.

Yet, I do not come from a space that can't honor butch masculinity of those who prefer a male/masculine identification all across the spectrum.

My masculinity is rooted in the feminine. Simply how it works for me and it does encoumpass political, physiological, spiritual, and cultural aspects. Probably, the most difficult area in butch identity for me is a lack of linguistic terms in the English language that just isn't binary based. Very frustrating. At times, I feel that if this were so, much of the negative energy that all of us encounter within our community would not exist. We hurt each other in so many ways which seems so very counterproductive to me.

Sure, I will display the constellation of my butch identity with pride (and I have been guilty of arrogance which isn't helpful), but, so often this gets misinterpreted as anti-TG/IG, Trans-masculine, etc. This blocks so many avenues for creating a unified community and just makes the schism within the LGBTI at large grow more divided. Then there is the gossip mill and middle-school popularity contests within the B-F community.... ARGH!!! We gotta stop this!

[Stoney]

"""""For myself, I id as male, and reject the female id totally. I cannot stand it. It is an insult and offensive to me. If someone wants to hurt me, that is the best way to do it. Use it against me, as it has been done. I think that life is hard enough, and the one thing that I would love more than anything else would be to have t. However, no doctor in the USA will ever give it to me. So, I have to deal with the cards dealt me. """"


Andrew Andrew Andrew........sigh


Come on now, we are trying to rise up as "females" here in this thread....are we not??? !

hence "putting the "FEMALE" IN........yada yada

I dont understand ....sometimes it seems like you post a lot in threads that don't really pertain to empowerment and support for being male, but more so in female I'ded threads, to mention how much you dislike having to deal with the aspects of being female.....

It doesnt seem conducent to what we are trying to accomplish here in this thread....


IDK, just sayin"


Peace, Stoney

[key]

I just discovered this thread and my ADD prevents me from reading through all 7-8 pages, but the last few pages have been awesome! I live part of the year in San Francisco and I sometimes feel like women like me are vanishing before my eyes. Where are all the plain ole butch lesbians? (with more and more emphasis being put on the "ole" - but that is another thread).

It has been a great relief to come on this site and see that I am not alone. Sometimes I wonder what would change for me if I took T. Would I be instantly more self confident? Would my hips shrink? Would my shoulders broaden? Those changes would be cool, but like so many on this thread have asked, would that change me?

Would it help my soul's journey? Though I don't concentrate on it as much as I would like, that is my most important question. I have a hard enough time accepting myself as I am, my body, my shyness, my fears. Would I instantly - by taking a pill - become ok with myself? Highly doubtful. And I am not suggesting that FTM's make their transitions for these reason. I am just speaking for myself. Most likely taking T would just lump a whole other set of complications onto my life for me to learn to accept.

Anyways, please keep posting on this thread. I am enjoying feeling part of a thriving herd in what I sometimes perceive as a dying breed.


:riding2:

[Sapph]

It's always nice to see a butch girl that questions the same things I do. I am a firm believer in questioning everything to be sure of the answers you choose in life. I have ran through the full specturm of labels. Everything from Femme to TG. Questioned taking T and what it would make me. The answer that I have came up with time and time again was that I'm just "plain ole butch".

As part of the younger generation, there seems to be so much pressure to be hyper masculine or even TG. I've had people question my ability to be butch. Like I'm not butch enough to call myself a butch. IMHO, I carry the very "old school" values of the butch women that came before me. I openly embrace my woman-hood as well as the natural masculinity that presents it's self. I don't cringe and get pissed off when I'm called "sir" by unobservant people, but it's not a title I tell people to call me.

As a lesbian from the backwoods, simple kind of life, I find that all the labels out there just complicate things more. I constantly have to ask my girl what a certain label indicates. I dont mean to offend, I support and love all my brothers and sisters in the LGBTQ community. This is just my experience in life.

Happy to have found some butch sisters.


Sapph

[BullDog]

Welcome to the thread and site, key and Sapph.

I am just a plain ole butch here that walks through the world proud to be butch, proud to be female, proud to be lesbian.

[Sapph]

Thanks BullDog. Its been a pleasure thus far

[AtLast]

"""""For myself, I id as male, and reject the female id totally. I cannot stand it. It is an insult and offensive to me. If someone wants to hurt me, that is the best way to do it. Use it against me, as it has been done. I think that life is hard enough, and the one thing that I would love more than anything else would be to have t. However, no doctor in the USA will ever give it to me. So, I have to deal with the cards dealt me. """"


Andrew Andrew Andrew........sigh


Come on now, we are trying to rise up as "females" here in this thread....are we not??? !

hence "putting the "FEMALE" IN........yada yada

I dont understand ....sometimes it seems like you post a lot in threads that don't really pertain to empowerment and support for being male, but more so in female I'ded threads, to mention how much you dislike having to deal with the aspects of being female.....

It doesnt seem conducent to what we are trying to accomplish here in this thread....


IDK, just sayin"


Peace, Stoney


I agree and due to the fact that I support the male-identified butch, TG & IG fully, I have a problem with having these kinds of statements posted in a thread for discussion of the female-identified butch. I would not go into the TG/IG butch threads and say something along these lines as a butch woman.
I would be labeled transphobic immediately (and for good reason).


Be who you are and be proud. But don't come into a thread like this and make mysogynist and anti-female-identified butch statements. This is the kind of behavior has caused so much division among butches and our community at large. There is a lot of sensitivity and defensiveness that needs to be addressed among us and this is no way to do it! We all need to support one another no matter where we fall on the butch and gender identification spectrum.

[DapperButch]

"""""For myself, I id as male, and reject the female id totally. I cannot stand it. It is an insult and offensive to me. If someone wants to hurt me, that is the best way to do it. Use it against me, as it has been done. I think that life is hard enough, and the one thing that I would love more than anything else would be to have t. However, no doctor in the USA will ever give it to me. So, I have to deal with the cards dealt me. """"


Andrew Andrew Andrew........sigh


Come on now, we are trying to rise up as "females" here in this thread....are we not??? !

hence "putting the "FEMALE" IN........yada yada

I dont understand ....sometimes it seems like you post a lot in threads that don't really pertain to empowerment and support for being male, but more so in female I'ded threads, to mention how much you dislike having to deal with the aspects of being female.....

It doesnt seem conducent to what we are trying to accomplish here in this thread....


IDK, just sayin"


Peace, Stoney



I agree and due to the fact that I support the male-identified butch, TG & IG fully, I have a problem with having these kinds of statements posted in a thread for discussion of the female-identified butch. I would not go into the TG/IG butch threads and say something along these lines as a butch woman.
I would be labeled transphobic immediately (and for good reason).


Be who you are and be proud. But don't come into a thread like this and make mysogynist and anti-female-identified butch statements. This is the kind of behavior has caused so much division among butches and our community at large. There is a lot of sensitivity and defensiveness that needs to be addressed among us and this is no way to do it! We all need to support one another no matter where we fall on the butch and gender identification spectrum.

Hey Stoney and AtLastHome, I thought I would just point out (thought you may want to know), that one moderator and the Admin pointed out to Andrew on page 2 that perhaps this wasn't the best place for him to make such a statement. He apologized for offending anyone that may have felt offended.

Cheers. :)

[AtLast]

Hey Stoney and AtLastHome, I thought I would just point out (thought you may want to know), that one moderator and the Admin pointed out to Andrew on page 2 that perhaps this wasn't the best place for him to make such a statement. He apologized for offending anyone that may have felt offended.

Cheers. :)

Thanks, Dapper - my bad. And I absolutely want to acknowledge Andrew's apology!

Something that also came to mind is that often, young butches or butches that are just struggling with their identity and those new to sites like this, are not aware of TG/IG forums that are available. So much can be gained in those threads. I think I shoulf have mase some kind of comment about this in my former post.

:seconddoh:

[Rockinonahigh]

Im just plane old me.I dont try to be any more or less,my body is what it is tho I had the chanch to change it..I didnt.Why,well it wouldnt make any diffrents in who am and all the phisical changes would only change the outside.I respect anyone who makes the desision to transition,it just wasnt for me.
Rockin

[IttyBittyFem]

I agree and due to the fact that I support the male-identified butch, TG & IG fully, I have a problem with having these kinds of statements posted in a thread for discussion of the female-identified butch. I would not go into the TG/IG butch threads and say something along these lines as a butch woman.
I would be labeled transphobic immediately (and for good reason).


Be who you are and be proud. But don't come into a thread like this and make mysogynist and anti-female-identified butch statements. This is the kind of behavior has caused so much division among butches and our community at large. There is a lot of sensitivity and defensiveness that needs to be addressed among us and this is no way to do it! We all need to support one another no matter where we fall on the butch and gender identification spectrum.
AMEN


Atlast and I have had this conversation MANY MANY MANY times before.

Give me an OFOS female ID'ed Butch, and I'm bouncing off the walls with glee.

However, this does not mean in any way whatsoever, I do not emotionally support Butches of other choices.

An OFOS female IDed Butch is my personal preference, as we all have our own personal preferences.

Just thought I'd let ya'll know that the Femme's that love & support you are out there, not so easy to find since many of us appear to be hiding behind what looks like a staight woman's face.

[WILDCAT]

Wild Cat..........Im back.......

(Im back primarily to get some of whatever that good stuff is you been smokin') hehe

plus I miss ya all!


'specially u,ya damn dyke!


Stoney

Hi Stoney!! I'm sorry I haven't read this thread for several + days to see that you had written this. Thank you!

It IS painful at times to read what we read here, I know. I must step back and take space at times myself... and just fucking breathe. And heal. I so grateful for the voices of others speaking up during these times.

So, you wicked witch crone stone butch... hang the heck in there. K?

Yes, I had wondered where you were until I saw your birthday cake photo in the gallary! (Hope you had too much fun!!)
__

Say what is in your heart Stoney, especially when it feels heavy - well, when you are ready and able. We feel each other. We are not alone. We actually do still "exist". WE ARE REAL. We are here for each other. We are not going away. We will not assimilate that which is not right nor comfortable for us. Why would we? (Why SHOULD we?)

Things are always changing though... respect and acceptance for all is critical to our community, especially movement-wise. And that goes every-which-way, but loose. (Divided we are so at a disadvantage politically.)

And everyone can be the way they want or need to be.

And, hello to everybody!!

Show the love! Bring it on... :heartbeat:

Sincerely!

WILDCAT - still one very proud lesbian butch queer!




:aslpeacelove:


Psst! It's the smoke from the wood burning here that gets me :freak: at times!

[Jett]

Nope... it's never come up real time. I never even thought of ---- id'd except online.

And in that... the period that I did refer to myself as "female identified" was simply in effort to express what I was not... it doesn't seem like an id to me so much even though I am without a doubt female.

Hell... along those exact same lines... I just said to a friend a few minutes ago... I don't identify as "A Butch Woman" per se because many do it in the "it's my Gender Identity" sense... that I believe many do feel it... ummm... differently or maybe more politically?

Like I said, I am all female and proud to be, but in the context of LGQTB etc. identities/labels/terms for all intents and purposes I'm pretty much a simple Stone Butch--- better maybe a Stone Bull.

Am I making sense... I have a feckin' half ass migraine.
lol
(if not just ask)

Metro

I'm quoting myself here because I had some thoughts, revelations if you will of late and thought I'd share a post that I just put out elsewhere... but felt I wanted to place here to in light of my previous statements.

Here goes:

I've struggled greatly with the word woman pertaining to myself... as in woman as a gender and as "butch woman" as an Id for myself. Late in life I nixed it. But in light of some things I've found a clarity, and though this may seem rambling as it's been hard to get into words I do feel some correlation to the internal ramifications of being heard/seen or not and walking in the world as butch woman. (the crux of the discussion it was posted to originally)

Something interesting happened recently after I dug out a pic of myself for FB retro week... I felt a profound sense of loss. Not in outward appearance, not in gender presentation, not in chronological sense... but I'd lost something. In an effort to decipher this feeling I went through much retrospection on my life, how I felt then, how I feel now, things that happened that changed me, that made me think differently of myself (though perhaps not my fault some things change you) and feel differently.

I was semi discussing dealing/processing some of it with a friend and she said something to me... "Be your truest and strongest self". It is so simple, and yet in asking myself that in the light of looking into the eyes in the photo... it felt it (I) wasn't jiving. But hell I've been living life as a butch in the face of the world for decades, so I questioned myself as to how could I be denying myself when I live my truth everyday in that... I wasn't denying myself... it wasn't that, I am and always will be butch. Something else was off.

I looked deeply at all the stuff that has occurred (between then and now) and who I am now- then I realized part of it was her... literally "her". She was proud as a "woman", she hadn't gotten the shaft yet... she was happy in her ignorance. Suddenly I felt like I had I allowed life, the patriarchy, social construct, personal trauma's and myself to do the ultimate snow job on me... and in that, though some things in life can be taken/stolen from you... innocence, etc. being a woman should not be one of those things. The fact that I'm a butch, a masculine being, unfortunately made even more room for me to push myself further away from the word woman, in that it made it even more possible to justify to myself why I arguably could deny it.

I almost let that happen, I almost did it to myself... though being woman isn't something you can discard about yourself if you are, only deny... and I was in deep denial, imposing the invisibility (seen/heard) on myself and likely extending it to others ( I feel stupid for that and somewhat guilty (?) ). I feel like the denial was a sort of defense mechanism gone awry with experiences lived in the face a misogynistic society, in relation to my masculinity and to various experiences relating to being physically female. I think all the turmoil in me over the word was in subconsciously in that I always knew, and the faceless, nameless, unexplainable struggle I felt lay in my own self betrayal more than in the cans or can't analyzing of gender. My error was in not seeing what I was doing and why.

Though a painful passage, and I'm still getting the trickle down, it's one of the most freeing experiences I've ever had. To, again, be my truest strongest self.

Metro

END-

(Pls be aware in reading this, it's not intended to state what anyone who feels no connection to the word should do or think)

[TIMBERWOLF]

I have been reading this thread and I saw this post mentoning a Christmas party at work. I wanted to share my experience as a Butch in a mostly str-8 Christmas party. I am not out at work because I feel it would not be accepted. I feel people can think what they want.
So I am sitting with my friend (a Femme who found me at work long story) and sitting across from us is a woman who identifys as a Lesbian. She is out at work and much younger then I am. Also she does not hold the same position with the company as I do so she is able to feel a little more free to not worry about what people think. She came as a "date" with a str-8 woman who has slept with her but is going out with a male employee in another part of our company. She could not bring him because he is married and not yet divorced from his wife. Am I rambling here? Hope I did not lose anyone yet. LOL
Anyway, this woman proceeded to get drunk and carry on with any str-8 woman that would indulge her. Such as grinding on the dance floor with them or at their table with them. These other str-8 woman had their male dates that they brought with them and those guys just sat at the tables all night and watched all of these activities. I thought the way she handled herself was totally disrepectful of everyone that was there and I felt as a gay person she gave gay people a bad rap for her behaviour. After the party the next day nothing happened to her not even a reprimand. So when I read that you were let go for just bringing your date. I was very surprised.
I on the other hand had all the woman that wanted to dance and thier husbands did not want to come and beg me all night to dance with them. Including the Boss's wife. Which I felt vey uncomfortable with because she was hanging all over me.
So anyway I wanted to say the younger generation is much more free with everything. When I grew up I had to hide my indentity or I would not be employed. I am very masculine in my demeanor and that is just me. I am called sir alot by people who do not really look at me. Then on further examination they realize I am not a guy.
Thank you for indulging my rambling. This only the second thread I have responded to.

Sunny
Hey Sunny, Thanks for responding. I was out at my other job and have never made any type of gestures toward anyone at my work. It just so happened that the firm i was working for the head owner /dr was quite the ladies man,ie cheating on his wife ect. I went with a button down shirt and pull over sweater and my partner wore a very nice long dress and looking at us you could tell we were a couple and that might have been my mistake. After that people would ask a lot of questions and I kept throwing them off (I thought) with answers about my son's and grand children. I think only 2 didn't have a problem with it. Im going for my 2nd interview and I don't think it matters with this company.At least it doesn't seem to with the first interview. Of course I don't come out unless I feel safe. Its a shame that sometimes we have to hide trying to get a job.
It will never change who I am.
TIMBER

[Linus]

*pokes thread with really big pointy stick*

MOVE DAMNIT!

ETA: Oh look.. it worked!

[OS Butch]

Whew! I read all 9 pages! I think I will lurk a bit longer.

[Jett]

I'm quoting myself here because I had some thoughts, revelations if you will of late and thought I'd share a post that I just put out elsewhere... but felt I wanted to place here to in light of my previous statements.

Here goes:

I've struggled greatly with the word woman pertaining to myself... as in woman as a gender and as "butch woman" as an Id for myself. Late in life I nixed it. But in light of some things I've found a clarity, and though this may seem rambling as it's been hard to get into words I do feel some correlation to the internal ramifications of being heard/seen or not and walking in the world as butch woman. (the crux of the discussion it was posted to originally)

Something interesting happened recently after I dug out a pic of myself for FB retro week... I felt a profound sense of loss. Not in outward appearance, not in gender presentation, not in chronological sense... but I'd lost something. In an effort to decipher this feeling I went through much retrospection on my life, how I felt then, how I feel now, things that happened that changed me, that made me think differently of myself (though perhaps not my fault some things change you) and feel differently.

I was semi discussing dealing/processing some of it with a friend and she said something to me... "Be your truest and strongest self". It is so simple, and yet in asking myself that in the light of looking into the eyes in the photo... it felt it (I) wasn't jiving. But hell I've been living life as a butch in the face of the world for decades, so I questioned myself as to how could I be denying myself when I live my truth everyday in that... I wasn't denying myself... it wasn't that, I am and always will be butch. Something else was off.

I looked deeply at all the stuff that has occurred (between then and now) and who I am now- then I realized part of it was her... literally "her". She was proud as a "woman", she hadn't gotten the shaft yet... she was happy in her ignorance. Suddenly I felt like I had I allowed life, the patriarchy, social construct, personal trauma's and myself to do the ultimate snow job on me... and in that, though some things in life can be taken/stolen from you... innocence, etc. being a woman should not be one of those things. The fact that I'm a butch, a masculine being, unfortunately made even more room for me to push myself further away from the word woman, in that it made it even more possible to justify to myself why I arguably could deny it.

I almost let that happen, I almost did it to myself... though being woman isn't something you can discard about yourself if you are, only deny... and I was in deep denial, imposing the invisibility (seen/heard) on myself and likely extending it to others ( I feel stupid for that and somewhat guilty (?) ). I feel like the denial was a sort of defense mechanism gone awry with experiences lived in the face a misogynistic society, in relation to my masculinity and to various experiences relating to being physically female. I think all the turmoil in me over the word was in subconsciously in that I always knew, and the faceless, nameless, unexplainable struggle I felt lay in my own self betrayal more than in the cans or can't analyzing of gender. My error was in not seeing what I was doing and why.

Though a painful passage, and I'm still getting the trickle down, it's one of the most freeing experiences I've ever had. To, again, be my truest strongest self.

Metro

END-

(Pls be aware in reading this, it's not intended to state what anyone who feels no connection to the word should do or think)
The trickle down trickled down...

It wasn't the "her"/woman part...

... it was the "happy in her ignorance" part, ignorance of the implications of who s/he was and how it would play out in a binary world... it was the- ignorance is bliss.

Still a freeing experience, but differently. In trying to jump headlong into embracing "woman" as in ID, or in casual what-ever... it didn't work, not anymore than it did before, feels like trying to hard and not feeling it... and it made me re-look at what I had accepted but started internally denying... the less safe, the intergender mid ground of those that don't fit the binary, not here nor there yet both by birth or by life lived, it just is what it is.

Though not of great importance to anyone here, I've decided to just own it up front here because I don't want to go around eating my words slowly bite by bite over a period of however long rather than just openly acknowledging I f*cked it up, nor do I, does anyone want to be acknowledged as something they're not.

Not much else to say, except truest strongest self... come what may.
Metropolis

Denial... a state in which one an unconsciously reaction in which they deny thoughts, feelings and facts that to them are consciously intolerable.

[swagger]

It occurred to me a few days ago that I never used to distinguish myself as a "female-identified" Butch.

:: There has been such an evolution in how we talk about ourselves, I was wondering if any other Butches had always distinguished their identity with a gender prefix or not?

whether it's politically correct or not, i've always identified as a woman. so, "butch woman" fit me fine, if you're distinguishing between me and other butches, but "female identified butch" takes ages to say and i'm not sure it's necessary for a cis-gendered woman. or is it? i've never actually thought about it, to be honest.

i shall ponder more ...

[DapperButch]

whether it's politically correct or not, i've always identified as a woman. so, "butch woman" fit me fine, if you're distinguishing between me and other butches, but "female identified butch" takes ages to say and i'm not sure it's necessary for a cis-gendered woman. or is it? i've never actually thought about it, to be honest.

i shall ponder more ...

swagger -

Some butches identify as females, but not as women. That is the only reason why it would be necessary to designate.

It goes back to separating out sex from gender with sex = female and gender = women (some definitions). (I saw you mentioned going through/learning about gender/sex). For some the designations make sense and are useful, for others, it doesn't matter so much.

I'd say, don't cloud your head with it all if you don't have to! lol

[swagger]

Ah thanks dapper. I hereby claim female and woman - but I choose the way I define those words :) om.......................

[Chazz]

I'm sorry this thread has slowed down. It's been a really interesting read.

Oh and, I'm a butch woman, Feminist.


whether it's politically correct or not, i've always identified as a woman. so, "butch woman" fit me fine, if you're distinguishing between me and other butches, but "female identified butch" takes ages to say and i'm not sure it's necessary for a cis-gendered woman. or is it? i've never actually thought about it, to be honest.

i shall ponder more ...

Swagger, assuming I'm interpreting you correctly, though quite possibly I'm not, a comment about your post.

Though I know the term "cis-gender" gets a lot of play these days, I've never heard a credible explanation for how that term can, with any semblance of accuracy, be applied to butches of most every stripe.

To my way of thinking, butches are the original un-cis-gendered. Woman identified butches, specifically, but many (lesbian) femmes, too.

In fact, I'm doubtful that the term "cis-gender" can ever be accurately applied to lesbians, ontologically speaking.

There are those who mis-assign this term to lesbians even within our own community. I suspect that is a byproduct of confusing gender with (biological) sex.

If cis-gender is to be defined as: A match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex (i.e. heterosexuality), lesbian sexual orientation is a cis-gender deal breaker, too.

[EnderD_503]

I don't mean to intrude on the topic, but the part I bolded just didn't sit with me well at all. I'm just wondering the purpose and the intent of the bolded comment, since it does not appear to make much sense, and just seems to promote division instead of unity.

Claiming that butch women were "the original un-cis-gendered" is like claiming that transgender, male identified, third gender etc. folks have not existed as long as butch women, or that they just magically appeared one day with no place in history prior to the coining of whatever term. Before even the coining of terms like butch, femme, or trans, I think we would have actually seen a bit of crossover between labels we consider butch/trans/etc. today.

I think it's difficult to say that the term cisgender necessarily accompanies or juxtaposes itself to any one modern label (perhaps with the exception of transgender/transsexual given that the label general requires incongruency between the brain's sex and the physical sex, which goes beyond socially constructed gender role into the realm of how, precisely, one thinks one's own biological sex), but that it can technically be applied to anyone of any label who does not feel as though their physical body and mind are entirely connected with regards to sex and gender. That's another reason why it's incorrect to say that butch women are the "original un-cis-gendered," because it is entirely dependant on how a butch perceives their own body in relation with their mind and identity.

Also found an interesting entry supposedly written by the guy who coined cisgender:

Comment from 1994 user of the term cisgender

I am the individual (Dana Leland Defosse) who used cisgender, as referred to in 1994 in the usenet posting.

For reasons discussed here and in the article, I have never liked the term non-transgender or any other term that couches persons other than transgendered as "normal", as these seem to reinforce the othering of being transgendered.

As a biologist, I simply used the prefix cis as the complement to that of trans. In the simplest interpretation, cis means on the same side and trans means across. Cis and trans are not just where something is, however; they extend to the realms of their respective effects. In the usage here (neologism, if you will), this would apply to the social and biologic constructions of gender and sex.

I think the use of cisgender also captures a subtle and nondualistic aspect of the issue at hand; cisgender reinforces and reflects itself, while transgender originates where cisgender begins but extends into a greater dimension by "crossing over". --Defo0008 04:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I also coined cisgendered as a term around 1994 in publicity for the GLQSOC-L, the Gay, Lesbian, Queer Social Science listserv to describe those who move from one mode of masculinity or femininity to another. This usage never caught on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.116.127 (talk) 00:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACisgender#Comment_from_1994_user_of_the_ter m_cisgender

Anyways, I just wanted to bring that up because it seemed a little "I comes before U"-ish (a mistake I think we all make sometimes) and we've already got enough division as it is, imo.

Cheers


Swagger, assuming I'm interpreting you correctly, though quite possibly I'm not, a comment about your post.

Though I know the term "cis-gender" gets a lot of play these days, I've never heard a credible explanation for how that term can, with any semblance of accuracy, be applied to butches of most every stripe.

To my way of thinking, butches are the original un-cis-gendered. Woman identified butches, specifically, but many (lesbian) femmes, too.

In fact, I'm doubtful that the term "cis-gender" can ever be accurately applied to lesbians, ontologically speaking.

There are those who mis-assign this term to lesbians even within our own community. I suspect that is a byproduct of confusing gender with (biological) sex.

If cis-gender is to be defined as: A match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex (i.e. heterosexuality), lesbian sexual orientation is a cis-gender deal breaker, too.

[waxnrope]

Thanks, Ender. We do back into our absolutisms at times, don't we? I agree with what you say, but at the moment, I'm just too lazy to quote and edit properly :)

[Chazz]

I don't mean to intrude on the topic, but the part I bolded just didn't sit with me well at all. I'm just wondering the purpose and the intent of the bolded comment, since it does not appear to make much sense, and just seems to promote division instead of unity.

Claiming that butch women were "the original un-cis-gendered" is like claiming that transgender, male identified, third gender etc. folks have not existed as long as butch women, or that they just magically appeared one day with no place in history prior to the coining of whatever term. Before even the coining of terms like butch, femme, or trans, I think we would have actually seen a bit of crossover between labels we consider butch/trans/etc. today.

I think it's difficult to say that the term cisgender necessarily accompanies or juxtaposes itself to any one modern label (perhaps with the exception of transgender/transsexual given that the label general requires incongruency between the brain's sex and the physical sex, which goes beyond socially constructed gender role into the realm of how, precisely, one thinks one's own biological sex), but that it can technically be applied to anyone of any label who does not feel as though their physical body and mind are entirely connected with regards to sex and gender. That's another reason why it's incorrect to say that butch women are the "original un-cis-gendered," because it is entirely dependant on how a butch perceives their own body in relation with their mind and identity.

Also found an interesting entry supposedly written by the guy who coined cisgender:



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACisgender#Comment_from_1994_user_of_the_ter m_cisgender

Anyways, I just wanted to bring that up because it seemed a little "I comes before U"-ish (a mistake I think we all make sometimes) and we've already got enough division as it is, imo.

Cheers

Hi, EnderD_503

I stand by my statement that butch women are the original un-cis-gendered.

This is a thread for female identified butches, of which I am one. My statement is made within that context, alone. I cannot speak for anyone who identifies differently because I am not of their cultural milieu.

One of the problems I have with the LGBTQ acronym, is that it suggests a commonality of experience. I have not had the same experiences as four out of the five letters in that acronym.

As a white butch woman of a certain age (etc.), I haven't had the same experiences as a twenty year old gay man, bisexual, aggressive, transgendered person or queer. My experiences are unique to me and the culture I occupy. Within my cultural milieu, butch women are the original un-cis-gendered. I leave everyone else to speak for themselves. To do otherwise, is to subscribe to cultural relativism. I don't.

[Chancie]

<snip>

I felt as a gay person she gave gay people a bad rap for her behaviour.

<snip>

Sunny
Who decides what is acceptable gay behavior?

Since we're talking about gender expression.

[Medusa]

Hi, EnderD_503

I stand by my statement that butch women are the original un-cis-gendered.

This is a thread for female identified butches, of which I am one. My statement is made within that context, alone. I cannot speak for anyone who identifies differently because I am not of their cultural milieu.

One of the problems I have with the LGBTQ acronym, is that it suggests a commonality of experience. I have not had the same experiences as four out of the five letters in that acronym.

As a white butch woman of a certain age (etc.), I haven't had the same experiences as a twenty year old gay man, bisexual, aggressive, transgendered person or queer. My experiences are unique to me and the culture I occupy. Within my cultural milieu, butch women are the original un-cis-gendered. I leave everyone else to speak for themselves. To do otherwise, is to subscribe to cultural relativism. I don't.


I can appreciate this.

I don't think of Butch as the "gold standard" for all things un-cisgendered but I do see that Butch often gets lumped in with "cis" in discussion when, in my mind, Butch is not at all cis.

We had several discussions on this site and another where I personally was incredibly frustrated with the term "cisgendered" being blanket applied to Butches or Femmes when many many many Butches and Femmes have stated how and why "cis" does not apply to them.

I'll admit also that I don't like feeling "othered" in Butch/Femme space by a term like "cis" (with acknowledgment of my intersecting privileges)

[Chazz]

II thought the way she handled herself was totally disrepectful of everyone that was there and I felt as a gay person she gave gay people a bad rap for her behaviour.

Sunny

Sunny, she alone is responsible for her behavior.

However, we do not live in an unbiased culture so I understand where you are coming from in your comments. Behavior such as hers does reinforce negative stereotypes. The responsibility for that is on people who subscribe to negative stereotypes.

[BullDog]

I don't mean to intrude on the topic, but the part I bolded just didn't sit with me well at all. I'm just wondering the purpose and the intent of the bolded comment, since it does not appear to make much sense, and just seems to promote division instead of unity.

Claiming that butch women were "the original un-cis-gendered" is like claiming that transgender, male identified, third gender etc. folks have not existed as long as butch women, or that they just magically appeared one day with no place in history prior to the coining of whatever term. Before even the coining of terms like butch, femme, or trans, I think we would have actually seen a bit of crossover between labels we consider butch/trans/etc. today.

I think it's difficult to say that the term cisgender necessarily accompanies or juxtaposes itself to any one modern label (perhaps with the exception of transgender/transsexual given that the label general requires incongruency between the brain's sex and the physical sex, which goes beyond socially constructed gender role into the realm of how, precisely, one thinks one's own biological sex), but that it can technically be applied to anyone of any label who does not feel as though their physical body and mind are entirely connected with regards to sex and gender. That's another reason why it's incorrect to say that butch women are the "original un-cis-gendered," because it is entirely dependant on how a butch perceives their own body in relation with their mind and identity.

Also found an interesting entry supposedly written by the guy who coined cisgender:



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACisgender#Comment_from_1994_user_of_the_ter m_cisgender

Anyways, I just wanted to bring that up because it seemed a little "I comes before U"-ish (a mistake I think we all make sometimes) and we've already got enough division as it is, imo.

Cheers

Edit: I was referring to this quote within Ender's post:

Quote:
Comment from 1994 user of the term cisgender

I am the individual (Dana Leland Defosse) who used cisgender, as referred to in 1994 in the usenet posting.

For reasons discussed here and in the article, I have never liked the term non-transgender or any other term that couches persons other than transgendered as "normal", as these seem to reinforce the othering of being transgendered.

As a biologist, I simply used the prefix cis as the complement to that of trans. In the simplest interpretation, cis means on the same side and trans means across. Cis and trans are not just where something is, however; they extend to the realms of their respective effects. In the usage here (neologism, if you will), this would apply to the social and biologic constructions of gender and sex.

I think the use of cisgender also captures a subtle and nondualistic aspect of the issue at hand; cisgender reinforces and reflects itself, while transgender originates where cisgender begins but extends into a greater dimension by "crossing over". --Defo0008 04:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I also coined cisgendered as a term around 1994 in publicity for the GLQSOC-L, the Gay, Lesbian, Queer Social Science listserv to describe those who move from one mode of masculinity or femininity to another. This usage never caught on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.116.127 (talk) 00:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...term_cisgender

There is nothing neutral in the way the phrase "cis" is used to describe us. It's used to try and point how we are supposedly privileged- I have seen it used to say how we are "wallowing" in privilege countless times all over the internet.

I don't like non-transgender either. I prefer to be referred to as what I am, not what I am not. Cis means on the same side? On the same side as what? For me female, woman and butch fit- because I have claimed them. Nothing was handed to me. No one told me it's ok to be masculine and a woman and a butch living within a female body. No one told me it was ok to be a lesbian.

"Cisgender reinforces and reflects itself, while transgender originates where cisgender beings, but extends into a greater dimension by "crossing over?"

Again what is that supposed to mean. I don't reinforce or reflect any traditional version of the woman gender. I don't cross over into man or male either. Nothing in this definition describes me at all.

[BullDog]

I also think that gender identities such as butch woman and transgender are quite modern. Certainly the idea of masculine women or people born female who consider themselves males or born into the wrong bodies may be quite timeless, but I think it's quite problematic to try and project our own identities back into history.

I am a lover of history and certainly like to read about those who have gone before us, but I don't think they thought of themselves in exactly the same way we do today. Even the very idea of gender identity or identifying as something I think is fairly recent.

The identities of butch and femme really blossomed as more people moved to urban settings during and after the two World Wars- at least in the U.S. People were able to find and form community in public spaces such as bars. That is not the only way people have arrived at butch and femme, but it is a history I certainly feel connected with and it is mostly from the last 50 years or so. Certainly people have always had their own inner thoughts and feelings, but butch femme has a community aspect to it that is relatively recent and impacts on how we come to form our own individual identities.

The ability to transition is quite new. Not that that is the only thing that goes into transgender or trans sexed - certainly not. But the options that are available do I think impact on how people tend to identify.

The ability to identify as a butch woman certainly would be quite difficult, in my opinion, without modern feminism. Woman need the ability to feel they have control over their own destiny to even be able to conceive of such a thing.

[Chazz]

I can appreciate this.

I don't think of Butch as the "gold standard" for all things un-cisgendered but I do see that Butch often gets lumped in with "cis" in discussion when, in my mind, Butch is not at all cis.

We had several discussions on this site and another where I personally was incredibly frustrated with the term "cisgendered" being blanket applied to Butches or Femmes when many many many Butches and Femmes have stated how and why "cis" does not apply to them.

I'll admit also that I don't like feeling "othered" in Butch/Femme space by a term like "cis" (with acknowledgment of my intersecting privileges)

Nice to meet you Medusa. :)

I agree with your comments. I especially agree that the use of a term like "cisgender" IS a form of othering. What lays behind that othering would be an interesting discussion in deed.

The term cis-gender is a neologism. It reinforces gender constructed mythology. Myths are belief-based. One can argue a belief a thousand different ways, but it doesn't make a belief a fact.

Insidiously, the term cis-gender implies that there is privilege in conformity. One can argue that there is something to be gained by conformity, but not that conformity is a "privilege".

Being female in a sexist culture is not a privilege whether one conforms to a gender construct, or not. One can fail (or refuse) to see that, but it's true nevertheless.

There is a subtly concealed within the term cis-gender that bears exposure. That is the implication that gender is inherent and/or definable. I don't think so. My life is testament to that, in deed, every life is a testament to it, too.

I've never met two human beings, male or female, transgendered or not, who have the same gender presentation. The people who come across most authentic to me are the ones who don't give gender much thought at all.

I doubt anyone ever entirely escapes the influences of culturally imposed, gender constructs. We may spend a lifetime excavating those influences; we may commit to living a life in opposition to them, (etc., etc.), but none of that would be necessary if we were unaffected by gender constructs. A preoccupation with gender does not speak to indifference.

[Chazz]

I went back and read this entire thread. It got me thinking.

Whenever the subject of "privilege" is raised, in one context or another, I often detect resentment, even envy, between the lines of the dialog. Which is not to say those emotions aren't legitimate or justified. Often they are, and very much so as in the case of the term "white privilege".

The issue of "cisgender privilege" is different. Women aren't "privileged" under patriarchy. Conformity isn't a "privilege", it's a concession.

We could spend days, weeks and months arguing about the veracity of the term "cisgenderism", but I'm going to cut to my chase and simply ask: If a segment of our community finds a term insulting (say "cisgender" for example), why continue to use that term?

Why are some terms deemed unacceptable in the LGBTQ Community and others not? Who peoples the committee that makes these decisions?

Are there tacit "oppression Olympics" going on within the LGBTQ Community? Could the use of the term "cisgender" be a way of erecting a hierarchy with those perceived as having "passing privilege" situated at the top of the hierarchy. (I think, maybe so.)

Is there any greater indication of the patriarchal influences at play within the Community than the need to erect false hierarchies among ourselves? (Patriarchy loves hierarchies.)

So, what is up with laying the term "cisgender" at the feet of lesbians, particularly butches and non-conforming femmes? (Though, I think homosexuality is, in and of itself, non-conforming.)

[OS Butch]

Maybe it that I am from an older generation, I don't know. I will claim my own ignorance with the subject of cisgender and pretty much gender discussion. I get lost in it all.
I remember when I was Gay, when the Lambda and Rainbow on your car bumper was a secret sign to let other people know you were "family". At some point Gay went to meaning guys and I wasn't gay anymore cuz I wasn't a gay guy.
Over the years Gay Pride Day and events disappeared and all kinds of separating names were added....some say it was an evolution to the community. To me, for me all it did was separate my community.
All I am really sure of it that I am a Butch Woman, always have been... I wanna be Gay again. This dinosaur is wandering back to my cave.

[Miss_Tia]

maybe we need to start a gay dinosaur sticker club.....

[Chazz]

Maybe it that I am from an older generation, I don't know. I will claim my own ignorance with the subject of cisgender and pretty much gender discussion. I get lost in it all.
I remember when I was Gay, when the Lambda and Rainbow on your car bumper was a secret sign to let other people know you were "family". At some point Gay went to meaning guys and I wasn't gay anymore cuz I wasn't a gay guy.
Over the years Gay Pride Day and events disappeared and all kinds of separating names were added....some say it was an evolution to the community. To me, for me all it did was separate my community.
All I am really sure of it that I am a Butch Woman, always have been... I wanna be Gay again. This dinosaur is wandering back to my cave.

I hear you, OS Butch.

I'm a live and let live kinda person. I will go to the wall for anyone who's civil rights or personal well being is being violated. There are no exceptions.

I'm a lesbian. A butch woman to be exact. My life has followed a certain trajectory that is specific to my identity and experience in the world. I don't pass as straight, never did. I've never had "cis-gender" [privilege]. I'm good with that, real good. It's taken a bunch of inner work over many years for me to finally get there, but I did.

I've paid a price for not conforming to gender constructs (masculine or feminine). The jobs I didn't get, the housing; the loss of family bonds; the relationships/friendships that were dead on arrival. You know the mantra.

I've gained much from not conforming. I feel honest and authentic in my own skin. I'm comfortable with my butch identity, sexual orientation and my body. I'm not burdened by role playing or competitiveness with men or women. I don't have a need to "top" anyone, except when I do. :sunglass:

I've worked hard to feel good with myself. I've had to shed a lot of cultural, religious and family indoctrination to get here. This is one reason why I believe the application of "cis-gender" [privilege] to lesbians is so invalidating. It speaks to a lack of understanding of what my life, and the lives of so many other lesbians/women, are about. If you do not understand or make an effort TO understand our lives, how can we be your allies? Imposing terms on us that don't fit, that insult, dismiss and invalidate our personal journeys is alienating?

Blaming lesbians/women for their legitimate feelings of alienation adds insult to injury.

Demanding that lesbians/women ignore their feelings (or, just "get over them") without deep, ongoing dialog based in mutual consideration and respect, speaks to a sense of entitlement.

Claiming greater hardship or oppression to justify that sense of entitlement compounds the problem and further alienates. Experience is subjective. None of us is in the position of claiming greater anything. We cannot know the wounds another person carries in her heart, mind and soul.

Frankly, I don't care about the imposition of the term "cis-gender" [privilege]. It alerts me to which people to look out for. I do care that there are people in MY "community" demanding consideration and support they don't give lesbians/women. I care that they expect, and in some cases demand, that our (often) limited resources be directed towards them when they don't "know", or give a hoot, about us.

There isn't a "gender war" going on in our community. There is a hierarchy of oppression being erected. It's a hierarchy that reverifies patriarchal constructs that oppress us all in visible and invisible ways. Accusing someone of having "cis-gender" [privilege] is one way that happens. Conformity isn't a privilege.

We could be directing our time, energy and resources to more important things. Like addressing the misogyny, sexism, classism and racism within our community and elsewhere. Instead, we're climbing all over one another to the bottom.

The LGBTQ "community" has taken the wrong lesson from identity politics. The application of the term "cis-gender" [privilege] to lesbians is but one symptom of that. There are more.

[Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O]

Maybe it that I am from an older generation, I don't know. I will claim my own ignorance with the subject of cisgender and pretty much gender discussion. I get lost in it all.
I remember when I was Gay, when the Lambda and Rainbow on your car bumper was a secret sign to let other people know you were "family". At some point Gay went to meaning guys and I wasn't gay anymore cuz I wasn't a gay guy.
Over the years Gay Pride Day and events disappeared and all kinds of separating names were added....some say it was an evolution to the community. To me, for me all it did was separate my community.
All I am really sure of it that I am a Butch Woman, always have been... I wanna be Gay again. This dinosaur is wandering back to my cave.


maybe we need to start a gay dinosaur sticker club.....

I am Gay too! Let's all be Gay together!!! Waves my Gay flag!!

:LGBTQFlag:

[PumaJ]

I hope my stopping by to add my two cents worth isn't offensive to all of you fabulous and handsome Butches. I just have a bit to say in your support:cheerleader:

It was a few months after Stonewall, toward the end of 1969, when the door to my "closet" was opened by a most handsome hippie butch musician, who taking me by the hand, made real for me what had before existed only in my fantasies.

This was the time in San Francisco before there was much of anything having to do with Women's Liberation and feminism was going on. We had the Daughters of Bilitis, the Matachine Society, and the Gay Liberation Front. So many of us jumped on board with the GLF and claimed Gay Pride:-) Gay because we were those who loved amongst our own sex/gender, because some of us behaved and dressed in ways outside of the proscribed gender roles, and because we were beginning to feel strong in the reality of the world we'd created outside of the heterosexual mainstream.

I have never given up claiming Gay, just as I've never gave up claiming and owning Femme, or Lesbian or Queer. I don't care who tries to tell me different. I know the power of my own truth, and I am a very stubborn woman about such things.

Speaking only for myself as a Femme, it is the individual blending of the strong feminine and strong masculine, i.e., the female masculinity, in Butches that rocks my Femme heart (and other parts of my anatomy :giggle:). Over the many years of my experiences with Butches as lovers and friends, I've really come to see Butch as a third gender, being neither male or female, but both, in one. It is my opinion that those who can't see and understand that are too lost in mazes created by too much intellectualism.

I understand that there are some Butches who feel so little feminine energy and so much masculine/male in themselves that they don't identify as female/woman at all. Handsome and powerful in their own way as they are, I am not speaking about those Butches here, though perhaps they may also claim Gay.

Rock on, all of you marvelous Butches. We can all be Gay together!

I will leave you with this comment from Skylar Cooper (http://www.jasmynecannick.com/blog/?p=823):

I love butch women for what they represent. Unfortunately I believe butch woman have not been properly understood. There are hordes of stereotypes about them in the media and our communities that don’t represent what I call butch. With that said this is what I love about butch woman. They have a natural marrying of masculinity and femininity in a woman’s body. It’s the essence of the two genders carried by a woman. It’s spectacular to see. A pure anomaly of nature.

:blueheels:

[key]

When I have more time I will read every page. So now that you know I am jumping in the middle, please excuse if this has been discussed already.

I wonder if the labels we so carefully place on ourselves will ever be accurate given the context these labels are constructed in – basically a misogynist world. We can all agree that women are considered a lesser type of person in most if not all countries and cultures right?

So it makes me wonder how the labels we apply to ourselves would change if women were valued equally to men. When we identify as female are we identifying with a social construct of what is female? When I am naked – female, When I think about my mind and how I feel about my emotions – female. When I walk into a gas station in the middle of backwoods America and get called sir – I id as male – but that's mostly for my own protection (which of course carries a HUGE risk).

If you notice on my little thingy to the left under preferred pronoun, that is what I mean when I say it depends on who is addressing me. I can pass for male when I feel I need to. I drive the backwoods of this country a lot. And I walk the fine line of trying not to ruffle anyone's feathers while still being myself.

Look forward to more on this topic.

[Chazz]

Hiya, Key.

....I wonder if the labels we so carefully place on ourselves will ever be accurate given the context these labels are constructed in – basically a misogynist world. We can all agree that women are considered a lesser type of person in most if not all countries and cultures right?

Labels are always a partial representations of who we are. I often think about how ridiculous I would come of in real time introducing myself as: Chazz, butch woman. Cyberspace is an alternate reality.

I agree, women "are are considered a lesser type of person in most if not all countries and cultures".

So it makes me wonder how the labels we apply to ourselves would change if women were valued equally to men. When we identify as female are we identifying with a social construct of what is female?

In a world free of gender stereotypes and misogyny, labels would likely be unnecessary. And, we would probably be free to perceive ourselves differently than we do now. Who can ever really say, without a shred of doubt, how much our self concept is affected by stereotypes and misogyny. I mean really, really.

When I am naked – female, When I think about my mind and how I feel about my emotions – female. When I walk into a gas station in the middle of backwoods America and get called sir – I id as male – but that's mostly for my own protection (which of course carries a HUGE risk).

So much for cisgender being a privilege rather than a concession to conformity. :| I'm sorry that you feel obliged to concede to other people's stereotypes. Again, really, really.

If you notice on my little thingy to the left under preferred pronoun, that is what I mean when I say it depends on who is addressing me. I can pass for male when I feel I need to. I drive the backwoods of this country a lot. And I walk the fine line of trying not to ruffle anyone's feathers while still being myself.

Look forward to more on this topic.

"Ruffling feathers" was Eve's original sin. Women have been paying the price for that ever since.

[Toughy]

how the labels we apply to ourselves would change if women were valued equally to men. When we identify as female are we identifying with a social construct of what is female?

I am female bodied and a butch woman. I am all about changing the social construct for females and women. I identify as female/woman because I am those things, social construct or not.

The other thing about social constructs is they vary from community to community. What woman looks like in cities usually is different from what woman looks like in rural farm and ranch country.

I think we give far too much credence to this myth of woman looking/being/acting a singular way. I was born wearing boots and wranglers like the majority of women in the desert southwest. You can be masculine or feminine in boots and wranglers and both are woman.

Gender norms are constructs in the same way race and ethnicity are constructs......clothes are drag, women can do anything men can do, taking out the trash or using power tools are not just things for men anymore than raising children or sewing are things just for women.

[AtLast]

Reflecting on the fact that it is this very community that has contributed to my being much more comfortable as a butch woman at this time of my life. This entire community with all of its variations.