Crone Femmes?

[Medusa]

Hey all,

I have seen the terminology "Crone" in attachment with certain identities and recently, "Crone" specifically attached to Femme identities. I had always thought of a "Crone" as a magical identity whereby wisdom and age danced together. Being curious, I decided to read up a little and found this:

"The crone is a stock character in folklore and fairy tale, an old woman who is usually disagreeable, malicious, or sinister in manner, often with magical or supernatural associations that can make her either helpful or obstructing. She is marginalized by her exclusion from the reproductive cycle,[1] and her proximity to death places her in contact with occult wisdom. As a character type, the crone shares characteristics with the hag.

The word "crone" is a less common synonym for "old woman," and is more likely to appear in reference to traditional narratives than in contemporary everyday usage.[2] The word became further specialized as the third aspect of the Triple Goddess popularized by Robert Graves and subsequently in some forms of neopaganism, particularly Wicca."

Im curious if there are any Femmes who identify as "Crone" and if this identity is tied to Wicca for you, if it is tied to age and wisdom, or if there is some other meaning for you? I hope Im asking this the right way, not trying to be offensive, just highly curious.
When I read the definition above for "Crone", it feels kinda ageist...but maybe this is my ignorant read.

Thoughts on this identity?

[Medusa]

And now Im wondering if there are any Butches with "Crone"
attached to their identity!?

[Diva]

When I lived in Dallas (I was in my 40's then), there was a woman in the chorus in which I sang who described herself as a "crone".....she is an older woman and very wise, and I respect her even still. However, I'm not sure WHY I came to dislike that word, but I did and do. It has a negative feel to me....and maybe it was because of the definition which You gave, Medusa.

Also, an interesting point about the possibility that there may be butch~identified crones.....I hadn't thought of that.

:2cents:

[Arwen]

Im curious if there are any Femmes who identify as "Crone" and if this identity is tied to Wicca for you, if it is tied to age and wisdom, or if there is some other meaning for you? I hope Im asking this the right way, not trying to be offensive, just highly curious.
When I read the definition above for "Crone", it feels kinda ageist...but maybe this is my ignorant read.

Thoughts on this identity?

I adore the word Crone. It is about wisdom and aging gracefully and enjoying the transitions. I am Wiccan and it is very much tied to that.

In my spirituality, we have celebrations of transitions among other things. I've written a ritual celebrating a girl child's transition into womanhood (first blood).

My Goddess is seen in four ways--Maiden, Mother, Crone and a fourth way I am not at liberty to discuss (oathbound.) Each phase is a celebration of that part of being a woman.

The men also have four ways--Son, Father, Sage and a fourth.

But for me, I look forward to my croning. If I were in a coven, it would be a huge hairy deal complete with all the trappings and honorings we give to a woman who has passed that threshold.

The patriarchy (most likely) defiled and twisted the word Crone into meaning withered, old witch. It was a way to take power away from the healers and wise women of the time. And it was a way to keep women in their place.

So while I'm right at the edge of what would be considered my Crone years, I look forward to them. I also acknowledge and celebrate the wisdom of all those women gone before me.

It's actually completely anti-agiest, A. It puts our elders in their rightful place. One of wisdom and being honored for the life they have lived (and will still live because Cronehood is not death by any means.)

The Crones in Wicca are our spiritual leaders as are the Sages. It's about time in the trenches, if you will.

So yes, I love the word Crone and celebrate it. I am not afraid of growing older either. Sometimes I think those that eschew the word may be. We've been taught that getting older means loss of life and enjoyment and activity. I think we can look around our own community and know that's not true. :)

[Diva]

Just to clarify....I'm not afraid of getting older. At all.

[Arwen]

Just to clarify....I'm not afraid of getting older. At all.

Diva, I do hope you don't think I mean you personally in my post. Not at all. I think you are a very good example of how to live life no matter what age you are. You tackle it with grace and passion and generally good humor. For that reason, within my spirituality, you would be a most excellent Crone. However, I do honor that you do not like the word. I would not use that appellation for you out of respect.

You can not deny that there are those who fight growing older with every tooth and nail and shot of Botox they can though.

[Just_G]

And this whole time I thought croning was when they duplicated an animal....back to square one for me! :winky:

[Diva]

Yes....I rather enjoy the fact that my face can move and isn't full of whatever that stuff is. BLECH!

G........... I got nuthin'......:pacman:

[Arwen]

Warning, When I Am an Old Woman

When I am an old woman, I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I am tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.

I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick flowers in other people's gardens
And learn to spit.
You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
Or only bread and a pickle for a week
And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes

But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We will have friends to dinner and read the papers.
But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old and start to wear purple.

By Jenny Joseph, Minchinhampton, England, 1961

[Andrew, Jr.]

I never thought of the word Crone as being negative. Even being Dyslexic, it never came across that way to me when it was being explained to me. It was a natural process for both men & women.

:rainsing:

[Apocalipstic]

I am not quite ready to embrace myself as a Crone. Though I do like the thought of Femme Elders and Crones.

In fact, until the last few weeks when it has been pointed out how out of touch people my age really are, I did not think of myself as an elder.

:spider:

[Jess]

I always thought the progression was " maiden( nymph), warrior, Queen, Crone.
The four major segments of ones life. This could be also in the male, perhaps.. boy( son), warrior, king, elder( sage/ crone).
Wars are fought by warriors, either in the trenches or in our own communities. We see our young ( 20 somethings ) warriors being the ones forging new definitions for themselves and demanding to no longer be viewed by our older terms. Warriors create a new language and wear a new armor, while our "queens/ kings" attempt to incorporate the new into their vocabulary and our crones/ elders watch with contemplative pleasure, knowing all is as it should be.

I love the term Crone as I sit in my King/ Queen stage looking both behind and ahead. I look forward to the peace that comes after releasing the hold I still have on my "warrior" years.

Thanks.. good food for thought!

[Bit]

Ah, I learned that saying differently Jess, "Maiden Mother Warrior Crone"--and only Maiden tied to a specific age range. We're all different, eh? :thumbsup:

So Dusa, "Crone" is the same word as "Crow" and it's tempting to think of it disrespectfully, yanno, old women in widow's weeds (black from head to toe), those raucous and troublesome "old crows" clustered around the village wells...

What people forget is that "Crone" and "Crow" are also the same word as "Crown." We were originally talking about the rightful tribal rulers, eh? The person who, in modern times, would be a Queen--and there was no male equivalent, since kings are a later invention, so we are talking about the ultimate power and authority in the land being vested only in female-bodied people.

Although the Greek image of Athena and Her Bird is indelible in our culture today, owls are not the only birds of wisdom. Tis the European Goddess's Sacred Crow who crowns a woman with wisdom and makes her a crone.

I'm so glad you included Butches in the discussion, because I have lived with two Butches who considered themselves Crones, and deservedly so--and I know there are many more.

That said, I must say that associating the image of power--a Crowned Woman with a Sacred Crow on her shoulder, reigning authority and avatar of the Goddess Herself for an entire people--associating that image with Femmes makes me glow inside. I love this reclamation of a term for ancient power by our largely invisible population which has difficulties being perceived by society as powerful in any way. Yes, let us take this word back; let us restore the image it once carried! :heartbeat:

Today, Crone is generally acknowledged as "a woman fifty (sometimes 52) or over who has the benefit of a lifetime's experience and hard-learned wisdom to share," and it's most often used in the Pagan, Wiccan, Women's Spirituality, and Queer/Lesbian communities.

For me personally, a Crone is someone--no matter her age--who is allied with the Hag Goddesses, Hecate, Bridey, Mother Holle, Hel, Hurta, etc--all those ugly old-woman goddesses who were originally the power of the Earth Herself brought to vivid life in the most powerful image our ancestors could conceive: an old Crone, crowned with age and wisdom, leading the people safely through feast and famine alike.

How appropriate She comes to you now, at the beginning of Her Season of Snow. May She bless you abundantly with love and warmth, with family and happiness, and may She see you through the years with love and gentle care.

[Arwen]

I always thought the progression was " maiden( nymph), warrior, Queen, Crone.
The four major segments of ones life. This could be also in the male, perhaps.. boy( son), warrior, king, elder( sage/ crone).

SyrJess, this is an interesting four that correlates back to the Tarot in a way.

In traditional Tarot decks there are four court cards. Usually they are the Page, the Knight, the Queen, the King.

I can see a feminine four there as well as a masculine four. Thanks for this thought!

[Duchess]

I love this thread Medusa. This is truly enlightening. I've never heard of a crone femme. I must read on.

Duchess

[Isadora]

In my pagan tradition a woman is "Croned" when she has completed her second Saturn return. My tradition will Crone anyone who is over 56 and completed her return. It is also a woman's choice as to when she is Croned. I have not chosen to do this, I do not feel it is time. I have a lot more to learn.

To me the Crone represents not only wisdom, she represents the oral/written history of the community. They are the teachers and the protectors. The Crone is the beauty of graceful acceptance of the aging process. The Crone is the one who holds silence and also speaks brutal truths. She understands the value of being not doing.

While the maiden is new to sex, the mother is the creatrix of sex, the Crone is the teacher and the pure pleasure of sex. *cackle*

[Arwen]

In my pagan tradition a woman is "Croned" when she has completed her second Saturn return. My tradition will Crone anyone who is over 56 and completed her return. It is also a woman's choice as to when she is Croned. I have not chosen to do this, I do not feel it is time. I have a lot more to learn.

To me the Crone represents not only wisdom, she represents the oral/written history of the community. They are the teachers and the protectors. The Crone is the beauty of graceful acceptance of the aging process. The Crone is the one who holds silence and also speaks brutal truths. She understands the value of being not doing.

While the maiden is new to sex, the mother is the creatrix of sex, the Crone is the teacher and the pure pleasure of sex. *cackle*

This is very in-line with my own Trad in terms of age and astrological tenets.

You however, need to accept that gift that you are and the gifts that you bring. Darling, you may not have put on the crown, but it is right there on your pretty head already. Now sit down and let them put the decorations on as well. LOL

But this was a beautiful speaking of who I know Crones to be. Particularly the holding silence and speaking brutal truths. It is not easy to be honest to someone. That type of self-honest is so hard to find. So I think that age does not always bring wisdom, does it?

Here's to the Crones. May they be ever-wise and ever-vigilant. May we remember to thank them and be grateful for their presence in our lives. May we grow to be more like them every day.

[foxyshaman]

In my pagan tradition a woman is "Croned" when she has completed her second Saturn return. My tradition will Crone anyone who is over 56 and completed her return. It is also a woman's choice as to when she is Croned. I have not chosen to do this, I do not feel it is time. I have a lot more to learn.

To me the Crone represents not only wisdom, she represents the oral/written history of the community. They are the teachers and the protectors. The Crone is the beauty of graceful acceptance of the aging process. The Crone is the one who holds silence and also speaks brutal truths. She understands the value of being not doing.

While the maiden is new to sex, the mother is the creatrix of sex, the Crone is the teacher and the pure pleasure of sex. *cackle*

That's fascinating. What pagan tradition do you practice and why the Saturn return? I agree Crones are representatives of what you have written above. In some shamanic traditions women were not allowed to practice until they were well past their child bearing/rearing stage. In some traditions women who had children could not be shamans. Anyway... a bit off topic.

But for me the Crone where I will be one day. We have celebrated Crones in our circles many times over the years with special ceremonies. They are also given special duties within the community.

The Crone is often so misrepresented in myths and storys. But alas is that not the way it has been for many years. I am grateful for conversations regarding the Crone, the honor of the Crone and the rightful place within our socieity for Crones.

Yeah Crones!!!

[friskyfemme]

I identify as Crone in relationship to age and wisdom. However, I can't help visualizing the 'old, dark, spindling woman' when I see/hear the word. LOL... I don't relate myself to that definition at all. <my apology in advance to anyone I offended by my comments here>

[HumV4me]

Thank you soo much Dusa for starting this thread.

I could not help but come here and read everyone's words as if they were honey on the tounge..

I have refered myself in another thread as being "Of Crone Spirit".

The transition into becoming one with self is not always an easy path. To sit down and put it into words is "almost impossible".

To be of "Crone Spirit" does not mean you are totally complete... It does mean how ever, you carry the escence within you and one day... beyond your control... a tranformation ~~WILL~~ occur in your present life.

I feel this isn't my first journey and will not be my last... and with each passing of time / life... the spirit within me only gets wiser and stronger... until the day comes were I am born "As One".

This is what I long for.

Allowing change to transpire and letting go of the old, so the new can have it's way, is not an easy thing to do. Being the warrior and fighter that I am in mind and flesh has been the most difficult battle of all, in this life.

As I write this I feel the tears swell behind my eyes. I feel the nerves alight with fire and feelings I am not able to describe.

All I know is it's been a long hard road full of life experiance... and as long as we all share those experiances with each other... Passing our stories on may help another learn and grow in a softer earier way than it was for ourselves.

And might I add, there are time's when life presents questions or situations and you are not prepared to know the answer or out come, (((yet you already do know))) and you are not sure how you know. When you come to realize this it may be very frieghtening or a great experiance... it just depends on how you embrace it and acknowledge it.

Peace and LOVE to all of you... and please keep posting.... ~~smile~~ I beg you.

Oh... now we need some Crone Femme Smilies!!!! :cheer:

[friskyfemme]

Thank you soo much Dusa for starting this thread.

I could not help but come here and read everyone's words as if they were honey on the tounge..

I have refered myself in another thread as being "Of Crone Spirit".

The transition into becoming one with self is not always an easy path. To sit down and put it into words is "almost impossible".

To be of "Crone Spirit" does not mean you are totally complete... It does mean how ever, you carry the escence within you and one day... beyond your control... a tranformation ~~WILL~~ occur in your present life.

I feel this isn't my first journey and will not be my last... and with each passing of time / life... the spirit within me only gets wiser and stronger... until the day comes were I am born "As One".

This is what I long for.

Allowing change to transpire and letting go of the old, so the new can have it's way, is not an easy thing to do. Being the warrior and fighter that I am in mind and flesh has been the most difficult battle of all, in this life.

As I write this I feel the tears swell behind my eyes. I feel the nerves alight with fire and feelings I am not able to describe.

All I know is it's been a long hard road full of life experiance... and as long as we all share those experiances with each other... Passing our stories on may help another learn and grow in a softer earier way than it was for ourselves.

And might I add, there are time's when life presents questions or situations and you are not prepared to know the answer or out come, (((yet you already do know))) and you are not sure how you know. When you come to realize this it may be very frieghtening or a great experiance... it just depends on how you embrace it and acknowledge it.

Peace and LOVE to all of you... and please keep posting.... ~~smile~~ I beg you.

Oh... now we need some Crone Femme Smilies!!!! :cheer:


Beautifully and eloquently said. Much food for thought and reflection in your words.

[Soft*Silver]

I Identify as a crone
I also state I am a silver femme
not that one has to let their hair go grey in order to a crone
for me, however, it was a calling to do so
I am actually writing a book on Silver Femmes and Crone Butches
I use to call them Crone Daddies but many said they didnt ID with Daddy but did with Butch

[Naneegirl]

I have always seen it as a term of respect for an Elder. I'm not Wiccan however I'm assuming my understanding of the word is influenced by it. I have heard/read it used as an insult but I always kind of treasured the thought of one day being a Crone.

[Deborah]

I have always seen it as a term of respect for an Elder. I'm not Wiccan however I'm assuming my understanding of the word is influenced by it. I have heard/read it used as an insult but I always kind of treasured the thought of one day being a Crone.

For me 'crone' has a negative feel due to the first time i remember hearing it used was in Sleeping Beauty...it was an ugly, old, mean crone that gave Sleeping Beauty the poison apple....no offense to any crones out there...i am sure many of you are quite lovely and would never consider giving anyone a poison apple.....just saying:2cents:

[Naneegirl]

For me 'crone' has a negative feel due to the first time i remember hearing it used was in Sleeping Beauty...it was an ugly, old, mean crone that gave Sleeping Beauty the poison apple....no offense to any crones out there...i am sure many of you are quite lovely and would never consider giving anyone a poison apple.....just saying:2cents:

I've maybe been tempted to pass out a poison apple upon occasion.

I can understand why many people might hear it as negative. Its been used often enough as a negative term.

After a quick shuffle in my head, I can't readily think of too many positive terms that have been historically used for older women. I'm sure there are some, but more negatives jump to mind than positives.

For me, part of liking Crone is about reclaiming and redefining.

[Soft*Silver]

and why is it the apple is always poison in the story, that the woman hands over to someone? It is because apple is the fruit of love and for ever more, in legends where women's spirits were twisted so as to dethroned them from their spiritual best, the apple was given as a symbol of how twisty and untrustworthy a woman's love was deemed to be...

so if the apple is a symbol of women's love, think carefully then of the time when eve was offered the apple by the snake...

the snake, another symbol of women..more direct, of women's sexuality. Yes indeed...

in fact, even Medusa's legend, the "monster" with the hair of snakes that turned men into stone, was spun from men being so charmed, beguiled, mesmerized, and glamoured by the beauty of Medusa, that they turned her beauty, her locks, into snakes to derail her fame and love. Instead of men simply crushing out on her and acting like silly toads chasing flies, they turned her into a monster and made her gorgeous hair the sin of love....

not so...not so....

so when Eve is offered the apple by the snake, which is, for the record, a universal symbol of female sexuality, is it not a woman offering another woman, a taste of her fruit?

and was she not turned out of Eden only after she offered it to Adam?

think..think....go beyond what has been told to us....

so much has been shifted over the sands of time...but those who Know, will Hear that Crones are Real ....

[AtLast]

I have always seen it as a term of respect for an Elder. I'm not Wiccan however I'm assuming my understanding of the word is influenced by it. I have heard/read it used as an insult but I always kind of treasured the thought of one day being a Crone.

It is very much a term of respect and high regard for elders outside of Wiccan ideology as well. Take a look at Native American thought for one. Oh, and Iconsider myself to be a butch crone.

[Martina]

i so limit my ID's. i ID as a very few thing. VERY few. And i do not like having other people press ID's on me based on personal characteristics -- no one is doing that here, but it happens.

i do consider myself old though, and i am proud of that. i like it. i do not like having even more of a struggle with my weight. i do not like arthritis. i like most of it though. i even would have plastic surgery if the opportunity presented itself. That does not mean i do not claim my age and that i am not happy and proud to be here. i am.

[Queerasfck]

And now Im wondering if there are any Butches with "Crone"
attached to their identity!?

No. I prefer grumpy old guy.

http://www.semanacineespiritual.org/docs/las_10_mejores_2009/large_Clint_Eastwood_Gran_Torino.jpg

[Soft*Silver]

It is very much a term of respect and high regard for elders outside of Wiccan ideology as well. Take a look at Native American thought for one. Oh, and Iconsider myself to be a butch crone.

in my family, which has always been matriarchal here and in the old country, use the term Buba for crone women. Not Bubba which often means an overly done male with low wit and intelligence. Buba is the highest honor. Old Wise Woman. In the past, they wore hairnets and thick dark stockings that they rubber banded beneath their knees. Their laps spread and their breasts fell as they sat down. Their hands were worn and knobby from years of work. They wore the Buba uniform..the bubushka..and it came in many colors and brilliant designs. They were brought to family functions and placed in a comforting place for them and one by one, younger members would go to say their regards. A kiss for the bride at her wedding reception was a HUGE event. This woman canned enough from her garden to feed the neighborhood. And when she made her breads, people showed up that hadnt visited for months. She swatted with wooden spoons..or her hand if you were bad and close enough. Shame was not given out lightly. But if given out, lord help you, you deserved it and the family stood behind her. She often had whiskers on her top lip and if you didnt like it and mentioned it, you might lose your psyche balls from the star she would do in response to your lack of charm. Babies were placed in her arms to kiss...a blessing like no other. She ate unfamiliar strange things..like cow tongue and brains. You couldnt convince her to pay $20 for a meal for one person. She kept her money tied and pinned inside her "brassiere"...at least the money you knew about. She had stashes of it and if you really needed it AND you deserved it, she would skirt away and come back with the exact amount you needed. She never wanted paid back. If she gave, she gave without strings. If she judged you, and she was the one in the family who could, she was always right...

there arent too many Bubas left. I step into that role...as does my sister ..but we are both intimidated by the sacredness of that role. We dont feel like we are deserving of it. Somehow, between now and later, we will transform into Her. Its not like we get voted in, or can go out and buy the right clothes to make ourselves one. It just happens if we are deserving of it.

[Rockinonahigh]

U have described my sainted grandmother to a T.She was catholic to the core but so much a pagen as well..her gypsy blood always kept her strong as well as knowing everything.

[Naneegirl]

It is very much a term of respect and high regard for elders outside of Wiccan ideology as well. Take a look at Native American thought for one. Oh, and Iconsider myself to be a butch crone.

I hadn't thought about Native American cultures. Do you know if, in general, Native American beliefs honor elders (and more specifically women) more than our society in general does?


i do consider myself old though, and i am proud of that. i like it. i do not like having even more of a struggle with my weight. i do not like arthritis. i like most of it though. i even would have plastic surgery if the opportunity presented itself. That does not mean i do not claim my age and that i am not happy and proud to be here. i am.

It has its moments of aggravation, especially physically, but I to am enjoying it.

No. I prefer grumpy old guy.


I always like the term Curmudgeon, does that work?



in my family, which has always been matriarchal here and in the old country, use the term Buba for crone women. Not Bubba which often means an overly done male with low wit and intelligence. Buba is the highest honor. Old Wise Woman. In the past, they wore hairnets and thick dark stockings that they rubber banded beneath their knees. Their laps spread and their breasts fell as they sat down. Their hands were worn and knobby from years of work. They wore the Buba uniform..the bubushka..and it came in many colors and brilliant designs. They were brought to family functions and placed in a comforting place for them and one by one, younger members would go to say their regards. A kiss for the bride at her wedding reception was a HUGE event. This woman canned enough from her garden to feed the neighborhood. And when she made her breads, people showed up that hadnt visited for months. She swatted with wooden spoons..or her hand if you were bad and close enough. Shame was not given out lightly. But if given out, lord help you, you deserved it and the family stood behind her. She often had whiskers on her top lip and if you didnt like it and mentioned it, you might lose your psyche balls from the star she would do in response to your lack of charm. Babies were placed in her arms to kiss...a blessing like no other. She ate unfamiliar strange things..like cow tongue and brains. You couldnt convince her to pay $20 for a meal for one person. She kept her money tied and pinned inside her "brassiere"...at least the money you knew about. She had stashes of it and if you really needed it AND you deserved it, she would skirt away and come back with the exact amount you needed. She never wanted paid back. If she gave, she gave without strings. If she judged you, and she was the one in the family who could, she was always right...


I can totally picture her from your words.

[Sweet Bliss]

Bumping :wine: