Loving a Transman Isn't Easy

[lettertodaddy]

I posted this in the femme zone instead of the trans zone because it was written by a femme whose "perfect masculine woman" began transitioning to male four months after they married. I posted it because I've not read many transitioning stories written from a femme's perspective.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/Loving_a_trans_man_isnt_easy-10868.aspx

[The_Lady_Snow]

The fact she uses the term "tranny people" is gross to me..:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I guess I'm confused as to why people get married without discussing things that both parties would want in the future, who the hell springs up hey I'm gonna transition 4 months into a marriage shouldn't this have been one of those dating discussions?

[CockyDude]

I posted this in the femme zone instead of the trans zone because it was written by a femme whose "perfect masculine woman" began transitioning to male four months after they married. I posted it because I've not read many transitioning stories written from a femme's perspective.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/Loving_a_trans_man_isnt_easy-10868.aspx

I obviously can't comment from a femmes point of view. But I will say I've been with numerous women thruout my varying stages of transition & none of them ever expressed this woman's point of view. Maybe it's the vocabulary; I just find so much wrong in her story. The upside is that they're falling in love all over again. I hope they continue on a path of happiness.

[lettertodaddy]

Yes, some of her language is a problem, but the heartfelt sentiment she expressed shouldn't be discounted because of that, I don't think.

[CockyDude]

I guess I'm confused as to why people get married without discussing things that both parties would want in the future, who the hell springs up hey I'm gonna transition 4 months into a marriage shouldn't this have been one of those dating discussions?

My guess would be it did come up. SHE thought it would go away after marriage. HE thought she'd fully support him as his wife. My opinion only.

[CockyDude]

Yes, some of her language is a problem, but the heartfelt sentiment she expressed shouldn't be discounted because of that, I don't think.

I by no means discount it. She's obviously hurt & confused. It's a difficult situation, for both of them. Lots of honest communication is necessary in ANY relationship, but moreso in this sort of relationship that already brings a lot if unknown variables to the table.

[Stacy]

Much of what she wrote holds true for me as well, especially about being thrown back into the closet.

When Michael & I first got together, I had only been out as a lesbian about two years and I was loving every rainbow sticker covered minute of it. He wanted to be stealth at the time, and so to the outside world we were like any other hetero couple. All the rainbow stickers came off my car, my rainbow jewelry got stuffed into a box in my drawer, and it made me sad. However, I was so crazy in love with him, that it seemed like a small price to pay.

Michael has since decided to be more out about being trans. He's begun doing panels and public speaking. His coming out has allowed me to come out of the closet with my sparkly queer flag flying. I am loving it! Invisibility sucks, and I love being able to proudly tell people that I am queer and I am married to a transsexual man.

As far as some of the writer's issues with the body changes, I dealt with some of those as well. I won't even try to pretend that I was 100% cool with Michael's top surgery. I had serious inner turmoil about it. Not only was I sad that the body I loved would be changing, but I was also worried about the surgery itself, and the final outcome. I was also sad every time I got pleasure from Michael's body the way it was because it caused him so much pain. It was a whole ball of conflicting emotions, but the bottom line was that he needed it, period, and therefore I tried to be as supportive as I could and share his joy & excitement about the surgery. All the conflicts I had about the surgery disappeared when he woke up after the surgery and was fine. From that moment on, it did not matter what was before. He was happy, alive, and that is really all that mattered to me in the end. I now love snuggling up to his masculine, furry chest. I realized in the end that my fears stemmed more from the unknown the from the actual change itself.

I have never felt judged for my feelings surrounding Michael's transition. He has always talked with me openly and honestly about them. He's always tried to understand and see things from my perspective. Choosing to stay with someone who is transitioning is hard. I feel there should never be any negative judgement of someone who chooses not to stay. It doesn't make them a bad person. A woman who loves women, no matter how masculine the women she dates are, doesn't necessarily mean she's going to want to be with a transsexual man, and in my opinion, that is 100% okay. If a woman does decide to stay then she's bound to have a whole roller coaster of emotions to deal with.

I love Michael for the person he is. He is brave, gentle, funny, loving, and all I ever wanted in a partner. Loving him has always been easy, even if finding exactly where I fit into the GLBTQQIA community wasn't.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yes, some of her language is a problem, but the heartfelt sentiment she expressed shouldn't be discounted because of that, I don't think.

Her transphobic language discounts her, hence why I feel it's oogie..

[CockyDude]

Let me say this; I judge no one. The heart wants what the heart wants & we all live our lives accordingly. I can only speak as an FTM, the feeling of trapped in the wrong body from birth, yada yada yada & all the baggage that comes with that. I also differ in the fact that until 12 months ago, I only dealt with straight women. I've lived my life as a straight man from the age of 19. And that includes my 2 marriages, the 2nd of which will be finalized by divorce this month. Other than this site, there are less than a handful of people outside of my family that know my situation. I've learned a lot from this site that I had no idea about because I never interacted in the LGBT community. So please forgive me if I say something offensive; I'm still a political work in progress.

[SelfMadeMan]

The fact she uses the term "tranny people" is gross to me..:

Agreed. I *HATE* the word tranny

[SelfMadeMan]

So, after reading and re-reading the article, I don't find it to be necessarily transphobic - I do have issues with the use of the word 'tranny', but still don't feel it was used in a spirit of transphobia as much as out of ignorance about the trans community. A lot of the things she talks about - the things that are hard to hear - are things she feared due to stereotypes, myths, etc... that she appears to be learning aren't the case. I thought the article was very heartfelt and honest and really does speak to a lot of the issues that SOs deal with when coming from a lesbian background. I can only imagine that it would be incredibly hard to transition from being a visible lesbian to being seen as any other straight woman because the person you love decides to transition genders. I don't know what that feels like personally - but I saw firsthand what it put my own wife through, and it was hard for her.

It's a difficult issue to talk about... it's easy, as a trans person, to feel defensive when these issues are brought up. But the fact is, you don't transition alone in a relationship, your partner has to transition too, so it's vitally important to be able to talk about these issues and let all voices be heard. Even when it hurts to hear it.

All that being said, I want to add that I feel he was completely in the wrong for not communicating the fact that he was considering transition prior to the marriage... and there's no way he didn't know a mere 4 mos earlier that he was considering transition. She should have had all this information and been allowed to decide for herself whether to marry a transman or not.

[1QuirkyKiwi]

Choosing to stay with someone who is transitioning is hard. I feel there should never be any negative judgement of someone who chooses not to stay. It doesn't make them a bad person. A woman who loves women, no matter how masculine the women she dates are, doesn't necessarily mean she's going to want to be with a transsexual man, and in my opinion, that is 100% okay.



Thank you for that, Stacy!

I had a 7 year relationship with a Butch who then transitioned 5 ½ years into the relationship – I had the inner turmoil as I’ve always been gay and wondered if I as being ‘too judgmental’. I fell in love with the person and yes! I enjoyed hys body equally.

After surgery, hy started to change emotionally (a natural aspect I guess of the transition), and I was a little unsure of hys increased masculinity. I tried to be supportive, yet I didn’t feel comfortable – I felt bad for my feelings and tried to hide them as best I could. What was worse, was that I felt as though I was being prejudice towards hym for not being what I wanted. I did speak to a counsellor about it because I felt I had to do all that I could to make the relationship work.

For me, the understanding that I was not just attracted to Butch women, but, women who still had a certain femininity about them – I’m not just talking about their breasts, I mean in their presence of who they are.

I’m as gay as Christmas and proud of it! I have had a relationship with a man and I was almost a complete shambles in the relationship. My curiosity to ‘know’ what it was like to date a man got the better of me, lol!

I have since had a date with another Trans-man and still I didn’t feel completely comfortable. I have been judged harshly for my feelings on this, yet, I can’t help how I feel. I’m entitled to feel the way I do without criticism or judgment, but, sadly, that isn’t always going to be the case.

I would never criticise or judge another for their lifestyle or whom they are in love with, as I’m not living their life – what works for some doesn’t for others. All I hope for is that everyone finds their happiness regardless with who it is!

My apologies if this doesn’t make much sense, I was trying to type whilst crying my eyes out – Stacy’s understanding felt like a release – thank you! I wish you an Michael every health and happiness in life!

[The_Lady_Snow]

When one is in the get to know one another stage doesn't the whole hey I want to transition? Convo had? For "me" it would cause the sex is pretty important plus life changing decisions one should know ahead of time.

*still marinating thoughts*

[SelfMadeMan]

I agree with Stacy 100% re: choosing not to stay with someone after transition - it doesn't make you a bad person, at all. I've seen this happen before, where the partner that chooses to leave, is somehow villainized for their decision. I should add, that I have seen transphobic behavior from someone leaving a relationship with a transperson, but that isn't usually the case, and simply choosing to leave isn't wrong.

[SelfMadeMan]

When one is in the get to know one another stage doesn't the whole hey I want to transition? For "me" it would cause the sex is pretty important plus life changing decisions one should know ahead of time.

*still marinating thoughts*

Absolutely... if a person has ever had even a passing thought that they are trans, and have considered transition, then that needs to be communicated to anyone entering into a serious relationship with them. IMHO.

[Mr.Nobody]

The implication that this woman should support this decision fully using only the fact that they are married as the reason, IMHO, is pretty anitquated. It only serves to prove her point that..."We should a) keep it quiet and support the transgender person or b) leave the relationship or c) both."

IMHO, the shoulders that bare this burden, belong soley to her partner in this case.

IMHO, the one who should be being supportive in this situation, is him. Something perhaps along the lines of...."I'm sorry I lied to you all this time baby. I know this is f#@king you up. I should have told you, but I know how you feel about this and I didn't want to lose you. So I lied. I thought if we we married, it would be harder for you to leave me. I love you and I was afraid. I want us to be together forever."

Because seriously, how "supportive" do you think he might be if four months into the marriage, she sprang upon him the information that at birth, she had been a he?

He lied to her. Bad decision. He married her, fully knowing what was about to come. She however, was not privey to that knowledge and had she been probably would have made a way different decision. It was wicked unfair.

Her use of the words rha rha tranny people pretty much say it all. I don't give these two a very good chance. The foundation of their lives together was built on a lie. How can the home stand strong?

[Stacy]

Absolutely... if a person has ever had even a passing thought that they are trans, and have considered transition, then that needs to be communicated to anyone entering into a serious relationship with them. IMHO.

100% agree.

[Ebon]

It's very disconcerting to know that so many lesbians get judged because they don't want to remain with their partner when they transition. Honestly how hard is it to understand that everyone has the right to be attracted to who they want to be attracted to? Thank you guys for sharing and I'm glad the lady in the article was able to work through everything and remain with her spouse. I need to have a little chat with her about using the word Tranny. I have friends that use and it makes my skin crawl every time. I wasn't sure if I could respond in the femme space so I was reluctant.

[Words]

Refreshingly honest, and I wish them nothing but the best.

Words

[SecretAgentMa'am]

If you read the comments on the article, you'll see that the author's spouse commented roughly halfway down. He is very clear in his comment that he self-identifies as a tranny, uses the word tranny regularly, and does not consider it a slur. I don't think there was anything transphobic in her use of the word. She probably just didn't know that a lot of people don't feel the way her partner does about it.

One of the things I've found pretty disturbing in the years since I entered the LGBT community is the unspoken (hell, sometimes spoken outright) ethic that femme lesbians aren't allowed to have non-approved feelings about their partners transitioning. Anything other than wholehearted, joyful support will be labeled as transphobic. I applaud this woman for having the courage to say in public that she didn't have good feelings about her partner's transition, that it was hard for her, that it still is hard.

When I met my wife, she'd already been living 24/7/365 as a woman for 20 years. Trans issues were old hat to her, but the whole concept was entirely new to me. I knew that trans people existed, but I'd never known anyone who was trans as far as I was aware. So, knowing that I had a lot of questions and that some of them might inadvertently be hurtful to her, I started looking for online support communities for partners of trans people. I figured that would be a good way to talk to people who were dealing with some of the same feelings and issues that I was. How wrong I was. I learned pretty early on that any question other than "How can I best express my love and support of my trans partner to the world?" was transphobic. Questions about the long-term health risks of hormone therapy? Transphobic, and how I dare I even suggest that trans people are somehow damaged. Questions about terminology? How dare I use that slur that I had no idea was a slur until I got yelled at for it. Wondering how trans men fit into the lesbian community (keeping in mind that I had been clear that I had almost zero experience with the LGBT community at all), aren't they straight men now? Well, that's just about the most transphobic thing I could possibly have said, and that one got me banned from the group.

I didn't ask any of those questions out of transphobia. I asked them out of sheer ignorance. I honestly didn't know, and I thought a support group would have been the place to ask. Nope. As far as I could find, support groups for anyone who is really, actually struggling or honestly doesn't know how to navigate the community appear to be all but non-existent. I hope more articles like this one are published. Maybe if more partners admit that they didn't feel great about their significant other's transition, they'll be able to get some real support and deal with it better, rather than just learning how to stuff their own needs and feelings.

[iamkeri1]

[QUOTE=Mr.Nobody;442878]
IMHO, the shoulders that bare this burden, belong soley to her partner in this case.

IMHO, the one who should be being supportive in this situation, is him. Something perhaps along the lines of...."I'm sorry I lied to you all this time baby. I know this is f#@king you up. I should have told you, but I know how you feel about this and I didn't want to lose you. So I lied. I thought if we we married, it would be harder for you to leave me. I love you and I was afraid. I want us to be together forever."

Substitute the phrase "I'm sorry I didn't tell you." in the quote above rather than "I'm sorry I lied", and you have exactly what my husband said to me lo these many years ago (1980) when he told me shortly after our second anniversary about his desire to transition

Devastated does not even begins to describe how I felt. When I read the article, I understood down to the bone how this femme felt. Almost word for word she described my feelings at that time. Part of the devastation for me was that I KNEW (also down to the bone) that I would not leave him. We were one. To leave him would rip my own self apart. Therefore I would face incredible change in my own life.

I was not and never have been transphobic. I have always understood the need of people to be who they are. But that does not mean I was ATTRACTED to transpeople sexually or that I sought a relationship with one. I had, and this femme has, the right to choose her attraction. That does not make her transphobic. Even the 'Tranny rah rah rah" thing does not mean she is transphobic. She was just mad. I experienced the same thing. All of a sudden, instead of being surrounded by women be they butch, femme, andro, whatever, all of a sudden there were a bunch of men sitting on her couch...and her beloved butch was one of them.

My hubby waited a long time after he told me before he actually transitioned (for reasons I won't go in to here) but when he did, he jumped in with both feet. We went to doctors, therapists, group counseling, support groups, you name it. All about HIM. All about trans issues. Because we were activist people, we were activist in this as well. Almost every day there were guys sittiing in my living room talking about penises. I'm a lesbian dudes, penises (unlike "cock") do not attract me.

Do not think I am exaggerating here. In those days at least, when presurgical transmen met, THE top of converation was penises. Was it possible to have one? Which doctor could do the best surgery? What kind of procedures were involved. How much did it cost, Could you get insurance to pay for it? ... and the big one ... Would it WORK?

Yah "tranny blah blah blah" is pretty mild to describe the anger I felt at the way my beautiful life with my beautiful butch was being transformed. Where was I in all this? Who was I. Partners were treated as peripheral at best. After a year or two I understood why. During this time we met at least 50 couples. At the end of the two years, only 2 of these couples. no matter how long term their relatiopnships had been, were still together. Hubby and I were one of them.

In all of which I was treated as a straight woman. It was hard. it was painful, and it was insulting to me. The isolation was complete. The only one I could talk to about how I felt was hubby. He was wonderful. HE knew I was not straight. I never had to cover those feelings up around him. On the other hand, it tore him up to see me suffer and to know that he was responsible for the pain I felt. So most times I did not tell him.

So really folks, cut the femme some slack if she feels some anger. She has been through a lot. She has not had a lifetime to think about her feelings the way her husband has. I give her enormous credit that she is realizing that she loves her husband despite what he did to her and what has happened to her because of his choices. She has feelings. She is being honest about them, and she is trying like hell to keep her love intact through all of it. In my opinion, she ROCKS!!!!

Finally, while we are talking about insulting terms. Think about the term SOFFA (Significant others, friends families and allies ot transfolk.) I hate this acronym. I will not post on any site or thread that uses this term. It makes my skin crawl. What is it that you do with a sofa? You SIT on it. In my experience that is pretty much what happens to the feelings of SO's of people who transition...they get sat on. They are expected to just forget how they feel and express only joy and support for their loved one. We do feel that joy and support. But we feel a lot of other feelings as well, and those feeling are pretty much not acceptable. While the person who transitions gets support the SO gets almost none.

Again, she ROCKS!!!
Smooches,
Keri.

[betenoire]

Good for her. She's allowed to be upset and she's allowed to mourn. And she's allowed to express it however the hell she wants to express it.

I've been there. I wish 10 years ago that I had the kind of backbone of honesty that she has now.

[Sparx1_1]

I live in Vancouver so just gonna point out that certain terms and phrases that would be seen as offensive and transphobic elsewhere are acceptable here - most notably the word "tranny".

Another thing about Vancouver is it's very open and very supportive transfolk community. There are a lot of people who moved here just to access that support. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around why he would keep this from her; specifically because of where they live.

All that aside, it was very educational and informative to hear an honest opinion from the femme partners side of transitioning.

[Deborah]

My hubby waited a long time after he told me before he actually transitioned (for reasons I won't go in to here) but when he did, he jumped in with both feet. We went to doctors, therapists, group counseling, support groups, you name it. All about HIM. All about trans issues. Because we were activist people, we were activist in this as well. Almost every day there were guys sittiing in my living room talking about penises. I'm a lesbian dudes, penises (unlike "cock") do not attract me.

Do not think I am exaggerating here. In those days at least, when presurgical transmen met, THE top of converation was penises. Was it possible to have one? Which doctor could do the best surgery? What kind of procedures were involved. How much did it cost, Could you get insurance to pay for it? ... and the big one ... Would it WORK?

Thank goodness for MY sake, not all Transmen are interested in going so far as to have bottom surgery...I was with a butch that a year into the relationship decided he wanted to transition and it was like what I copied above, his desire to take that next step was there even if the means to do so never was...at least not during our relationship. The relationship ended for other reasons but I made it perfectly clear then and to everyone else - I have no issue with FTM/transitioning, top surgery or taking T. For ME I could not/do not want to even try to make it work beyond that...I dont consider this a condition on my love for someone, I doubt having a penis (working or not) would make me suddenly stop loving them (I still love my ex-husband, although not romantically) but the reason I left him is the same reason I would leave them...I just cannot live that way.

Sex is an important part of a relationship for me (saying that makes me smile because during my marriage I thought if I never had sex again it would be fine) and I cannot, will not have sex with a 'penis'. I have been out about 13 years and I still feel very niaive about the right and wrong things to say or do...and the last thing I want is to offend anyone...I am strictly speaking for ME. From the very first time I even entertained the thought of being with a woman she was butch very butch...I am attracted to that look, that energy, the maculine/femme dynamic (for ME that may come from living most of my life in a hetero world) whatever it is - it is. I feel I have the best of both worlds with my man. He is himself - and open about it when necessary and not when it isnt necessary...I still very much want to identify as a QueerFemme...being a femme has always made it difficult in my daily world....he understands that I love him for him but it doesnt change me. We talked A LOT about lots of stuff during our getting to know each other period...since we started out being friends it was easy not to hold back likes and dislikes...that 'honeymoon' period where you just want to say all the right things. We had both had relationships that went bad due to not having a clear understanding of what was gonna be a deal breaker and what would work.

I feel for the girl in the original story - like has been said if going in you had no idea this was what you were signing up for it's difficult at best and it has to be understood BOTH people are going through it and in this case not her choice. Seems the overwhelming agreement here is communicating what your feelings are about yourself, your partner and your future. Don't leave out those "daydreams" of living in the wilderness someday off the land, or one day selling everything and traveling the country or perhaps taking the next step to live in the body you always dreamed of....TALK.

I had to come back and say the title to this thread should say..."Loving a Transman Isn't Easy if That's Not What You Signed Up For" because I find loving a transman to be one of the easiest things I have ever done

[cuddlyfemme]

The implication that this woman should support this decision fully using only the fact that they are married as the reason, IMHO, is pretty anitquated. It only serves to prove her point that..."We should a) keep it quiet and support the transgender person or b) leave the relationship or c) both."

IMHO, the shoulders that bare this burden, belong soley to her partner in this case.

IMHO, the one who should be being supportive in this situation, is him. Something perhaps along the lines of...."I'm sorry I lied to you all this time baby. I know this is f#@king you up. I should have told you, but I know how you feel about this and I didn't want to lose you. So I lied. I thought if we we married, it would be harder for you to leave me. I love you and I was afraid. I want us to be together forever."

Because seriously, how "supportive" do you think he might be if four months into the marriage, she sprang upon him the information that at birth, she had been a he?

He lied to her. Bad decision. He married her, fully knowing what was about to come. She however, was not privey to that knowledge and had she been probably would have made a way different decision. It was wicked unfair.

Her use of the words rha rha tranny people pretty much say it all. I don't give these two a very good chance. The foundation of their lives together was built on a lie. How can the home stand strong?

I totally agree with you and couldn't have said it any better

[julieisafemme]

I read this article awhile back on FB. She is speaking honestly and openly. I did not find her transphobic at all. Partnering with someone who is transitioning is hard. It helps a lot to be able to speak honestly about how you feel. I went to a partner's support group for a year and it was enormously helpful. It was a totally safe space to say whatever we felt without the worry of hurting our partners.

I am glad this woman spoke so candidly. It may help open the dialogue up for other partners, butch, femme or otherwise.

I am also happy to report that transition can be a bonding, nurturing and wonderful experience for a couple as well. Like anything in life there is good and bad all mixed up together. I love my partner and feel closer to him today than I did three years ago when we met. He's changed a lot but in so many wonderful good ways.

[lettertodaddy]

I can only imagine that it would be incredibly hard to transition from being a visible lesbian to being seen as any other straight woman because the person you love decides to transition genders.

It's a difficult issue to talk about... it's easy, as a trans person, to feel defensive when these issues are brought up. But the fact is, you don't transition alone in a relationship, your partner has to transition too, so it's vitally important to be able to talk about these issues and let all voices be heard. Even when it hurts to hear it.


^^ This. Thank you for expressing it so eloquently.

[lettertodaddy]

Is it possible that her partner didn't lie?

I'm thinking of Chaz Bono as an example. Chaz came out as a lesbian, because he thought that's who he was. And maybe it is who he was at the time. But over time he came to realize that he really was a man and started transitioning. Did Chaz lie to his female partner when he started transitioning after they were together? How can we be so quick to suggest that's what happened in this case?

Without knowing the parties, I'm reluctant to chalk this one up to duplicity. Rather, I think people continue to grow and change throughout a relationship, and this may just be an extreme example of that.

[EnderD_503]

This article was actually posted in the Trans News thread: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2287&page=6

Personally, I found it really offensive. It's one thing to express your emotions over your partners transition. It's another thing to make these sorts of really transphobic statement. And another brilliant example where the existence of transphobia in the world is almost mocked. Where even pointing out transphobia is turned around on the trans person who points it out, as if they are in the wrong for pointing out oppressive language. If someone calls me a "rah rah tranny person" I'm going to be fucking offended. In fact, if anyone calls me a "tranny" I'm going to be fucking offended, I don't care who you are.

I'll post my reply from that thread here:

While I do agree that partners should be heard when they voice their concerns over a partner transitioning, there are ways to say it without reducing the word transphobia to something that trans people throw at people at random and framing trans people who call out transphobia when they see it as the "bad guys" in the situation.

I definitely do see transphobia in comments like these:


I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.


The Rah-Rah Tranny people on the sidelines say we’re not supposed to grieve the loss of our soulmate to a new gender. We should a) keep it quiet and support the transgender person or b) leave the relationship or c) both.
This, to me, has nothing to do with dealing with your partner's transition and voicing your feelings. I'm really tired of getting this sort of attitude from some LGB folks where other people are entitled to say all sorts of things about trans people, and when trans people respond or even mention the word transphobia, then they're "overreacting/making a big deal out of nothing," "not being sensitive," "being selfish" or trying to "guilt" people into agreeing with them on something.

It actually reminds me a lot of straight people's reactions when queer folks call them out on homophobia. Or people who make sexist comments when they're called out on their sexism. Yet somehow when it comes to trans people, some queer folks can't see how their behaviour mirrors that of those who, in turn, oppress them.

What does "Rah-Rah Tranny people" (seriously, if you're trans and identify as a "tranny", that's cool, but a cis person using the word "tranny" to refer to trans people in general is offensive, in the same way as a white person using the "N" word or a straight person calling gay men "fags") even mean? Apparently they are "politically fueled"? Again, what does that mean? Cause to me a "politically fueled" trans person is someone who fights for their own rights in a society where they don't have equal rights with the rest of the LGB spectrum. In the country the author is from, for example...

Like I said above, I have no problems with partners going through their process of coming to understand or accept their partner. But I feel the author made some comments that were transphobic (zomg, I must be a "rah rah tranny person"). I understand the frustration if the community she is a part of tells her that it's not acceptable to voice her feelings and grief over her partner's transition. I don't think that's good of them to do at all, and it's not something I would support. On the other hand, I don't think she should be expressing her frustrations while make transphobic remarks. It's like justifying homophobia because you had a bad altercation with a queer person, or sexism because you had an altercation with someone of a certain sex. Neither is acceptable in my eyes, and I don't think trans people should have to put up with anymore than anyone else should have to put up with discriminatory comments.

[EnderD_503]

If you read the comments on the article, you'll see that the author's spouse commented roughly halfway down. He is very clear in his comment that he self-identifies as a tranny, uses the word tranny regularly, and does not consider it a slur. I don't think there was anything transphobic in her use of the word. She probably just didn't know that a lot of people don't feel the way her partner does about it.

I don't really care if he identifies as a "tranny" or not. Many trans people don't and she is referring to "rah rah tranny people," not her husband. It's like saying that just because one gay man identifies as a "fag," that it's ok to run around calling all gay men "fags." A cis person has no right to call trans people as a group "trannies."

Edit: I'm sorry if this post came off as harsh, but honestly this kind of thing is really offensive to me. That people on the one hand say that slurs aren't acceptable, but when it comes to trans people it's acceptable. If a trans person wants to take back that slur to identify themselves, then that's fine, but that isn't an excuse to use that to talk about other trans people as a group.

[julieisafemme]

This article was actually posted in the Trans News thread: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2287&page=6

Personally, I found it really offensive. It's one thing to express your emotions over your partners transition. It's another thing to make these sorts of really transphobic statement. And another brilliant example where the existence of transphobia in the world is almost mocked. Where even pointing out transphobia is turned around on the trans person who points it out, as if they are in the wrong for pointing out oppressive language. If someone calls me a "rah rah tranny person" I'm going to be fucking offended. In fact, if anyone calls me a "tranny" I'm going to be fucking offended, I don't care who you are.

I'll post my reply from that thread here:

While I do agree that partners should be heard when they voice their concerns over a partner transitioning, there are ways to say it without reducing the word transphobia to something that trans people throw at people at random and framing trans people who call out transphobia when they see it as the "bad guys" in the situation.

I definitely do see transphobia in comments like these:





It actually reminds me a lot of straight people's reactions when queer folks call them out on homophobia. Or people who make sexist comments when they're called out on their sexism. Yet somehow when it comes to trans people, some queer folks can't see how their behaviour mirrors that of those who, in turn, oppress them.

What does "Rah-Rah Tranny people" (seriously, if you're trans and identify as a "tranny", that's cool, but a cis person using the word "tranny" to refer to trans people in general is offensive, in the same way as a white person using the "N" word or a straight person calling gay men "fags") even mean? Apparently they are "politically fueled"? Again, what does that mean? Cause to me a "politically fueled" trans person is someone who fights for their own rights in a society where they don't have equal rights with the rest of the LGB spectrum. In the country the author is from, for example...

Like I said above, I have no problems with partners going through their process of coming to understand or accept their partner. But I feel the author made some comments that were transphobic (zomg, I must be a "rah rah tranny person"). I understand the frustration if the community she is a part of tells her that it's not acceptable to voice her feelings and grief over her partner's transition. I don't think that's good of them to do at all, and it's not something I would support. On the other hand, I don't think she should be expressing her frustrations while make transphobic remarks. It's like justifying homophobia because you had a bad altercation with a queer person, or sexism because you had an altercation with someone of a certain sex. Neither is acceptable in my eyes, and I don't think trans people should have to put up with anymore than anyone else should have to put up with discriminatory comments.


Then call me transphobic. I would never use the word "tranny" but I may use words or concepts that could be offensive to other transmen or women because my partner is comfortable with them.

What her comments mean to me is that she is transitioning right alongside her partner and it is not always pretty or free of internalized transphobia, homophobia or other isms. That is why partners discuss these issues in groups with other partners. I have never once in all my discussions with partners felt transphobia from them. I have felt a lot of pain and confusion. Also happiness and love. Like I said it is a mixed bag and it may not always be palatable to everyone.

I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and I still appreciate her courage in expressing her feelings.

ETA Do you all remember that article in Oprah about the straight lady who fell in love with a transman? Now that article felt transphobic and really bugged me a lot. This one does not.

[Cin]

On the other hand, I don't think she should be expressing her frustrations while make transphobic remarks. It's like justifying homophobia because you had a bad altercation with a queer person, or sexism because you had an altercation with someone of a certain sex. Neither is acceptable in my eyes, and I don't think trans people should have to put up with anymore than anyone else should have to put up with discriminatory comments.

I'm not in any position to tell someone that what they hear is or is not transphobic. I mean if that's how it feels for you then that is how it feels for you. I just want to say that in all fairness having a bad altercation with a queer person or having an altercation with someone of a certain sex isn't really the same thing as dealing with issues surrounding your partner's, husband's, wife's transition. I would imagine there would be much more depth to the feelings.

[EnderD_503]

Then call me transphobic. I would never use the word "tranny" but I may use words or concepts that could be offensive to other transmen or women because my partner is comfortable with them.

What her comments mean to me is that she is transitioning right alongside her partner and it is not always pretty or free of internalized transphobia, homophobia or other isms. That is why partners discuss these issues in groups with other partners. I have never once in all my discussions with partners felt transphobia from them. I have felt a lot of pain and confusion. Also happiness and love. Like I said it is a mixed bag and it may not always be palatable to everyone.

I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and I still appreciate her courage in expressing her feelings.

ETA Do you all remember that article in Oprah about the straight lady who fell in love with a transman? Now that article felt transphobic and really bugged me a lot. This one does not.

If a person is using slurs (aka "tranny," "he/she," "she male" etc.), incorrect pronouns, or are referring to trans people in general's bodies in ways that aren't sensitive to dysphoria, then that is transphobic. She does not get a free pass to throw around offensive language just because she is married to trans person.

If turn this around and made it about a previously heterosexual identified woman who begins dating a lesbian, or a person with internalized racism dating a person of colour, do they have just as much a right to express their difficulties with the situation by throwing around slurs? I should hope not.

And it's not just about slurs.

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

This is an argument thrown at trans people by cis people on a daily basis. When a trans person calls a cis person out on transphobia, they frequently throw it back in our faces as though we're doing it just to play the victim, to hurt them, or act as though we have to be more tolerant of their inability to accept us (which really fucking gets me. Why are trans people always expected to have to put up with this? Because our mere existence is too difficult and confusing for everybody else?), or we're taking things too seriously, or we're too sensitive. That statement is so loaded with all of the above.

[EnderD_503]

I'm not in any position to tell someone that what they hear is or is not transphobic. I mean if that's how it feels for you then that is how it feels for you. I just want to say that in all fairness having a bad altercation with a queer person or having an altercation with someone of a certain sex isn't really the same thing as dealing with issues surrounding your partner's, husband's, wife's transition. I would imagine there would be much more depth to the feelings.

I really don't think it is, and I think that saying trans people are "different" than dealing with a queer person or a person of a certain sex is a major double standard.

[Cin]

I really don't think it is, and I think that saying trans people are "different" than dealing with a queer person or a person of a certain sex is a major double standard.

I didn't say that. I didn't say dealing with anyone is different than dealing with anyone else. I said an altercation with someone is much different than working through issues in a marriage.

I don't think what is happening or has happened between that woman and her husband can simply be called an altercation. That's the example you used And that's what I responded to.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It would be hypocritical of me to excuse her heavily weighted verbiage just cause she's femme, a sad femme, an angry femme, I can express concerns, fears, insecurities without having to use deragatory words. I'm ok with calling it out because not everyone is going to be ok with that particular descriptive...

Anyway it isn't going to change nor is my opinion up for debate I've shared now I'll just read.

[Apocalipstic]

Wait...did chick and her husband have an altercation? now I am lost.

[julieisafemme]

If a person is using slurs (aka "tranny," "he/she," "she male" etc.), incorrect pronouns, or are referring to trans people in general's bodies in ways that aren't sensitive to dysphoria, then that is transphobic. She does not get a free pass to throw around offensive language just because she is married to trans person. Something tells me if that we replaced "trans" with "woman," "lesbian" or "gay man" on this site, it would be a different story as far as what people would or would not tolerate.

If turn this around and made it about a previously heterosexual identified woman who begins dating a lesbian, or a person with internalized racism dating a person of colour, do they have just as much a right to express their difficulties with the situation by throwing around slurs? I should hope not.

And it's not just about slurs.



This is an argument thrown at trans people by cis people on a daily basis. When a trans person calls a cis person out on transphobia, they frequently throw it back in our faces as though we're doing it just to play the victim, to hurt them, or act as though we have to be more tolerant of their inability to accept us (which really fucking gets me. Why are trans people always expected to have to put up with this? Because our mere existence is too difficult and confusing for everybody else?), or we're taking things too seriously, or we're too sensitive. That statement is so loaded with all of the above.

Her partner uses that term. Often I defer to what my partner prefers. He does not like the term FtM and so I don't use it. He does use the term transmasculine. Depending on who you are talking to it can change.

I do not doubt or argue that the language is transphobic to you. All I can tell you is that there is a whole lot of yucky stuff that swirls around in one's head when your partner is changing day to day. Working through transphobia is one of the things I have done over the past three years. And it has come up in the most surprising ways. My partner is also Latino and I have had to work through my own racism.

I'm really sorry that this feels bad to you and that you do not feel heard. That is a crummy feeling and not my intent at all. I guess I am feeling kind of cranky and needing to carve out my little space. That should not be to the exclusion of you or other transpeople and for that I apologize.

I still give her the benefit of the doubt though.

[EnderD_503]

I didn't say that. I didn't say dealing with anyone is different than dealing with anyone else. I said an altercation with someone is much different than working through issues in a marriage.

I don't think what is happening or has happened between that woman and her husband can simply be called an altercation. That's the example you used And that's what I responded to.

In the instances where I quoted her using the words "rah rah tranny people" and talking about "the politically fueled" (presumably the same as the "rah rah tranny people"), are not her talking about her husband. She and her husband can work through their marriage issues all they like, but she is not referring to her husband in these comments. Her husband is not "rah rah tranny people" or "politically fueled" "tranny people." Working through her marriage and her husbands transition does not make it ok for her to refer to other trans people as "rah rah trannies," or reduce transphobia to something trans people say to make cis people feel guilty.

[EnderD_503]

Her partner uses that term. Often I defer to what my partner prefers. He does not like the term FtM and so I don't use it. He does use the term transmasculine. Depending on who you are talking to it can change.

I do not doubt or argue that the language is transphobic to you. All I can tell you is that there is a whole lot of yucky stuff that swirls around in one's head when your partner is changing day to day. Working through transphobia is one of the things I have done over the past three years. And it has come up in the most surprising ways. My partner is also Latino and I have had to work through my own racism.

I'm really sorry that this feels bad to you and that you do not feel heard. That is a crummy feeling and not my intent at all. I guess I am feeling kind of cranky and needing to carve out my little space. That should not be to the exclusion of you or other transpeople and for that I apologize.

I still give her the benefit of the doubt though.

Thanks for the reply julie. I can understand not using certain terms or using certain terms that your husband doesn't like/likes when referring to him. But what about other trans people? That's why I don't like her use of the word "tranny" here. If she were referring to her husband, then I would understand. I guess what I'm trying to understand is why the word that one uses for one's significant other needs to be assumed for other trans people (especially when it's a well-known slur)? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

[blush]

This article was actually posted in the Trans News thread: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2287&page=6

Personally, I found it really offensive. It's one thing to express your emotions over your partners transition. It's another thing to make these sorts of really transphobic statement. And another brilliant example where the existence of transphobia in the world is almost mocked. Where even pointing out transphobia is turned around on the trans person who points it out, as if they are in the wrong for pointing out oppressive language. If someone calls me a "rah rah tranny person" I'm going to be fucking offended. In fact, if anyone calls me a "tranny" I'm going to be fucking offended, I don't care who you are.

I'll post my reply from that thread here:

While I do agree that partners should be heard when they voice their concerns over a partner transitioning, there are ways to say it without reducing the word transphobia to something that trans people throw at people at random and framing trans people who call out transphobia when they see it as the "bad guys" in the situation.

I definitely do see transphobia in comments like these:





It actually reminds me a lot of straight people's reactions when queer folks call them out on homophobia. Or people who make sexist comments when they're called out on their sexism. Yet somehow when it comes to trans people, some queer folks can't see how their behaviour mirrors that of those who, in turn, oppress them.

What does "Rah-Rah Tranny people" (seriously, if you're trans and identify as a "tranny", that's cool, but a cis person using the word "tranny" to refer to trans people in general is offensive, in the same way as a white person using the "N" word or a straight person calling gay men "fags") even mean? Apparently they are "politically fueled"? Again, what does that mean? Cause to me a "politically fueled" trans person is someone who fights for their own rights in a society where they don't have equal rights with the rest of the LGB spectrum. In the country the author is from, for example...

Like I said above, I have no problems with partners going through their process of coming to understand or accept their partner. But I feel the author made some comments that were transphobic (zomg, I must be a "rah rah tranny person"). I understand the frustration if the community she is a part of tells her that it's not acceptable to voice her feelings and grief over her partner's transition. I don't think that's good of them to do at all, and it's not something I would support. On the other hand, I don't think she should be expressing her frustrations while make transphobic remarks. It's like justifying homophobia because you had a bad altercation with a queer person, or sexism because you had an altercation with someone of a certain sex. Neither is acceptable in my eyes, and I don't think trans people should have to put up with anymore than anyone else should have to put up with discriminatory comments.
Ender, you make some excellent thinking points in this post. It's never up to the majority to decide what is offensive to the minority.

[Deborah]

I guess I have become confused as to the purpose of this thread...

[julieisafemme]

Thanks for the reply julie. I can understand not using certain terms or using certain terms that your husband doesn't like/likes when referring to him. But what about other trans people? That's why I don't like her use of the word "tranny" here. If she were referring to her husband, then I would understand. I guess what I'm trying to understand is why the word that one uses for one's significant other needs to be assumed for other trans people (especially when it's a well-known slur)? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

But see maybe she is just learning and then uses the terms her husband is comfortable with and is told those are not ok. It is a learning curve.

We know a transman who has limited experience in the trans community and zero experience in the queer community. Wow does he put his foot in in sometimes!!! I would never tell him he was homophobic or transphobic. I just explain how others might hear that remark.

So no you are not misunderstanding me. I don't have the answers in this case. My partner sure would not put up with me calling him or anyone else a tranny. We don't know how it works for these folks.

All I am really trying to say is that partners worry A LOT about being transphobic. I wonder is this the transition I am responding to or just some stuff of my partner's? Is my reaction transphobic? And sometimes it just might be!!! I worry much less about this nowadays. I know what is ok for my partner and for the community. But I learned by screwing up!!!

[Cin]

In the instances where I quoted her using the words "rah rah tranny people" and talking about "the politically fueled" (presumably the same as the "rah rah tranny people"), are not her talking about her husband. She and her husband can work through their marriage issues all they like, but she is not referring to her husband in these comments. Her husband is not "rah rah tranny people" or "politically fueled" "tranny people." Working through her marriage and her husbands transition does not make it ok for her to refer to other trans people as "rah rah trannies," or reduce transphobia to something trans people say to make cis people feel guilty.

Ah okay got it. She had altercations with other transmen. I missed that. Sorry.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I don't really care if he identifies as a "tranny" or not. Many trans people don't and she is referring to "rah rah tranny people," not her husband. It's like saying that just because one gay man identifies as a "fag," that it's ok to run around calling all gay men "fags." A cis person has no right to call trans people as a group "trannies."

Edit: I'm sorry if this post came off as harsh, but honestly this kind of thing is really offensive to me. That people on the one hand say that slurs aren't acceptable, but when it comes to trans people it's acceptable. If a trans person wants to take back that slur to identify themselves, then that's fine, but that isn't an excuse to use that to talk about other trans people as a group.

I absolutely did not say that slurs are acceptable. I said that in this context, she probably didn't realize that some people would take it as a slur. As has already been mentioned, this couple lives in Canada. Where they live, it's not a slur. It's incredibly unfair to expect someone to not use a word that's in common use and not offensive where they live, just because it is offensive in a completely different country.

[SelfMadeMan]

Is it possible that her partner didn't lie?

I'm thinking of Chaz Bono as an example. Chaz came out as a lesbian, because he thought that's who he was. And maybe it is who he was at the time. But over time he came to realize that he really was a man and started transitioning. Did Chaz lie to his female partner when he started transitioning after they were together? How can we be so quick to suggest that's what happened in this case?

Without knowing the parties, I'm reluctant to chalk this one up to duplicity. Rather, I think people continue to grow and change throughout a relationship, and this may just be an extreme example of that.

You bring up a good point... and I suppose it is quite possible that a person might not even realize that transition is the path for them early in life. I think sometimes I just assume that everyone has known/realized since early childhood like I did, and that they'd have already realized that the time would come that they would do something about it. But you made me think... and I really can see how maybe it *could* be an epiphany for some.

[EnderD_503]

I absolutely did not say that slurs are acceptable. I said that in this context, she probably didn't realize that some people would take it as a slur. As has already been mentioned, this couple lives in Canada. Where they live, it's not a slur. It's incredibly unfair to expect someone to not use a word that's in common use and not offensive where they live, just because it is offensive in a completely different country.

I don't live in a completely different country. I'm Canadian. I know plenty of people around here who find the slur offensive. Other Canadians in the comment area from Vancouver themselves voiced that they didn't appreciate the use of the word tranny.

She's also writing this in a popular nation-wide LGBT newspaper (Xtra), that is given out for free in newspaper boxes on street corners across this city and across other Canadian cities. This isn't exactly her personal blog.

[EnderD_503]

But see maybe she is just learning and then uses the terms her husband is comfortable with and is told those are not ok. It is a learning curve.

We know a transman who has limited experience in the trans community and zero experience in the queer community. Wow does he put his foot in in sometimes!!! I would never tell him he was homophobic or transphobic. I just explain how others might hear that remark.

So no you are not misunderstanding me. I don't have the answers in this case. My partner sure would not put up with me calling him or anyone else a tranny. We don't know how it works for these folks.

All I am really trying to say is that partners worry A LOT about being transphobic. I wonder is this the transition I am responding to or just some stuff of my partner's? Is my reaction transphobic? And sometimes it just might be!!! I worry much less about this nowadays. I know what is ok for my partner and for the community. But I learned by screwing up!!!

Oh yeah, I definitely understand that when people are new to something it takes them time to learn. I'm pretty sure all of us have unknowingly made some pretty horrible statements in our time. I know I've said some things that I've regretted just because I didn't know better.

I guess to me it comes down to how willing or sensitive people are to learning. Her comments just don't sound at all like she wants to learn, they seem directly in response to the criticism of these "rah rah trannies" whoever they were.

It just makes her sound like she was wronged by some trans people who criticized the way she was dealing with her husband's transition, and so she took that opportunity to rail against them using derogatory language.

I know emotions can be high when you have to deal with a loved one's transition. But, for me, the question here is when is going too far, really going too far? How many derogatory things can a person express out of anger before it becomes officially hurtful and crosses the imaginary line?

I get that some people use this sort of language without bad intent. One of my roommates who's trans uses the word tranny to refer to herself all the time. That's her identity, but she respects others' identity at least. I just didn't get that from her article, and on to of that those aren't words, to me, cis people should be saying.

And its not that I'm not supportive of SOs who are dealing with their partner's transitions. It's not that I don't understand that sometimes people need to express what they're feeling about a tough situation without judgement. I really think it's important for family and loved ones to get support and counseling, too. It seems that she wasn't getting the support she needed and that truly sucks. At the same time, if someone's unapologetically saying things like those two comments she made...that I find really, really hard to accept. I don't think I can. Basically...I support her until she starts railing against an already marginalized group...

[julieisafemme]

Ender I went back and read the article again. I also read the comments section. There is some good discussion on her use of tranny. It seems that her husband uses this word quite deliberately and so her using it could not be seen as a mistake or not knowing better. In that case it could be seen as deliberately divisive. I think she chose her words carefully and so she does have to be responsible for offending some transpeople.

I still support her speaking out. Much of what she said rang true for me. Sometimes it is hard to know where we fit in. Some think my partner can no longer claim Butch as an ID.

This is a hard subject to talk about. I do not want to offend anyone and yet I feel and understand her frustration.

You are right though that the word was used intentionally and so therefore is offensive to you and lots of other people, even though her partner chooses to identify as a tranny.




Oh yeah, I definitely understand that when people are new to something it takes them time to learn. I'm pretty sure all of us have unknowingly made some pretty horrible statements in our time. I know I've said some things that I've regretted just because I didn't know better.

I guess to me it comes down to how willing or sensitive people are to learning. Her comments just don't sound at all like she wants to learn, they seem directly in response to the criticism of these "rah rah trannies" whoever they were.

It just makes her sound like she was wronged by some trans people who criticized the way she was dealing with her husband's transition, and so she took that opportunity to rail against them using derogatory language.

I know emotions can be high when you have to deal with a loved one's transition. But, for me, the question here is when is going too far, really going too far? How many derogatory things can a person express out of anger before it becomes officially hurtful and crosses the imaginary line?

I get that some people use this sort of language without bad intent. One of my roommates who's trans uses the word tranny to refer to herself all the time. That's her identity, but she respects others' identity at least. I just didn't get that from her article, and on to of that those aren't words, to me, cis people should be saying.

And its not that I'm not supportive of SOs who are dealing with their partner's transitions. It's not that I don't understand that sometimes people need to express what they're feeling about a tough situation without judgement. I really think it's important for family and loved ones to get support and counseling, too. It seems that she wasn't getting the support she needed and that truly sucks. At the same time, if someone's unapologetically saying things like those two comments she made...that I find really, really hard to accept. I don't think I can. Basically...I support her until she starts railing against an already marginalized group...

[Soon]

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

(from the original article)




....but no one discusses this

[Sassy]

Agreed. I *HATE* the word tranny

I grew up in redneck, USA... when I hear the word "tranny" I flash back to shade tree mechanics talking about transmission repair. But yeah, I feel like the word carries some derogatory connotations to it for most folks, whether intended or not by the writer/speaker.

[julieisafemme]

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

(from the original article)




....but no one discusses this

I thought we were discussing it. What do you want to discuss about it? It will be different here than in a room full of partners. I am ok with discussions of transphobia as well as sharing my experience.

[Ebon]

I'm actually very interested in hearing more experiences on what it felt like for SO's of trans people. If anyone else would like to share. I mean you don't have to go into detail if you don't want to but I would like to know what it felt or feels like on the other end. Like the woman in the article shared and like some others have already shared.

[betenoire]

Honestly, when I read the phrase "rah rah tranny people" I figured she wasn't speaking about actual transpeople. I figured she was speaking about the cheerleaders, who may not actually be trans themselves.

It's like the term trannychaser. Which is a term I like, frankly. Because it's so fucking spot-on.

In other news: No. Nobody does talk about what it's like to be the SO of someone who is transitioning. It's just fucking not fashionable for the SO to have feelings, especially if not all of those feelings are "rah rah rah GOOOOOOOOOO transperson! wooo!"

True story. Someone I was living with (10 years ago) dropped the "oh hi, I just this week realised that I'm a man and next week I have an appointment at the gender clinic!" (liar liar liar) bomb on me shortly after we moved in together.

Now, he had money troubles. Big money troubles. I was working full-time and he was just on-call at his job. So sometimes I had to pay more than my share of our expenses. I was cool with that because I knew I made more money than he did. So after he started going to his appointments and support groups and hanging out with his cool new boyfriends - he also started buying a shitload of new clothes. I very specifically remember this one month he didn't have money for his half of the phonebill but the next day he came home with a new fucking hoodie. So I called him out on it and he was all *tearfull* *earnest* "But I feel like I pass better in this sweatshirt".

I. Completely. Lost. My. Shit. I absolutely said that "frankly I do not give a fuck if you pass or not at this juncture. Right now I am way more concerned about whether or not we get our telephone cut off." Aaaaaand the universe blew up. "I cannot believe you would say something so TRANSPHOBIC!" blah blah blah. Fuck, I even had to hear what a horrible person I am from some of our mutual friends who he has whined to.

Couple that with the fact that he was, honestly, my First Real Girlfriend and I was feeling real mindjobby about that too (because I was really REALLY stoked to have a First Real Girlfriend, let me tell you.) But you know, I was never allowed to say that out loud to him. And I was never allowed to talk to anybody else about it because saying outloud that I felt ripped off because I no longer had a girlfriend (and what I really wanted was a fucking girlfriend!) was TRANSPHOBIC.

And it really fucking sucks. We are not allowed to have any feelings or disclose any negative experiences because to do so is TRANSPHOBIC. It's almost as if as soon as the person we are with starts to transition we are no longer allowed to be people. We're not allowed to have feelings, unless they are "rah rah rah!".

ETA: More true stories! I have broken up with exactly two other people since then because they decided to transition after we got together. Not because I am TRANSPHOBIC (although I have heard that I am) but because that's just not the relationship that I want to be in. Early on in the transitioning process is often a really selfish/self-absorbed time-frame in a person's life...and so it should be. I certainly am not in any position to tell other people what they should or should not do...but I think it's a time-frame where people are best off single. Or at the very least they are (or I am, more likely) best off not dating ME.

[lettertodaddy]

I'm reluctant to throw "transphobic" around because nobody wants to be put on the spot where they have to defend personal actions that come from specific, individualized experiences. I might be considered transphobic because I've said here and in other spaces that I'm not really interested in dating someone who is transitioning or who identifies as male. I will support anyone's decision to transition, and if I'm in a position to be an ally, then I'll always be that. But there are times when the personal trumps the political, and I think that's what is at work in the original author's relationship.

[Quintease]

I posted this in the femme zone instead of the trans zone because it was written by a femme whose "perfect masculine woman" began transitioning to male four months after they married. I posted it because I've not read many transitioning stories written from a femme's perspective.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/Loving_a_trans_man_isnt_easy-10868.aspx

I don't find this transphobic at all?

I chose to be with my husband, yet still I had to accept his body hair, the way he smelled, the lack of breasts, my lost identity, my heterosexuality, the questions I asked myself and others asked of me. I was a lesbian and his 'trans' identity didn't change the fact that I was now in a relationship with a man.

I'm glad they stayed together, just as I'm glad I still have my amazing man :love1:

[SelfMadeMan]

Agree with both of the last two posts so much! The term 'transphobic' gets tossed around so much lately - likewise, the term misogyny is coming up more and more often, directed at transmen. A person is not transphobic because they choose to leave, when a partner chooses to transition. A person is not transphobic because they choose not to date a trans person. A transman is not misogynistic because he chooses to transition. When I think transphobia or misogyny, I think hate and bias. I think, as a community, we're too critical of one another, and WAY too quick to throw these terms at one another.

[EnderD_503]

Agree with both of the last two posts so much! The term 'transphobic' gets tossed around so much lately - likewise, the term misogyny is coming up more and more often, directed at transmen. A person is not transphobic because they choose to leave, when a partner chooses to transition. A person is not transphobic because they choose not to date a trans person. A transman is not misogynistic because he chooses to transition. When I think transphobia or misogyny, I think hate and bias. I think, as a community, we're too critical of one another, and WAY too quick to throw these terms at one another.

It's not throwing around transphobia needlessly when the word "tranny" is used by cis people to talk about a group of trans people, or when transphobia is depicted as something that trans people throw at cis people to make them feel guilty or negate their feelings. Sorry, but I continue to see her two statements as transphobic. I don't find her feelings over her husbands transition transphobic, nor would I find it transphobic if she left him. In fact, I think it's probably a good idea for a relationship to end if a cis person can't deal with their partner's transition. If they find their partner "hard to love" because of their transition...maybe a break up is better for both, because I know I wouldn't want to be "harder to love" just because of who I am.

And this is where I get back to the questions I was trying to ask before:

At what point does being angry or hurt stop justifying the use of transphobic language. Does it ever? Or is transphobic language always something that trans people should just have to put up with if the person using it is "hurting" or dealing with a partner's transition.

This, to me, is what support groups have always been for. Getting out negative feelings in an SO-only environment without projecting it onto a whole group or a certain individual out of a marginalized group.

[*Anya*]

I read the article. It did bother me that her tone was so flip about such an important subject. Her use if the word "tranny" made me cringe!

We do not know how her partner took that article or how it made him feel to read it it.

That said, it is a serious and important topic. I watched a documentary on Netflix recently called Gender Rebels. It was quite good. One of the 3 subjects was around the life of a lesbian couple and the process that the femme went through when her partner transitioned.

Her grief and fear was valid and real. There was nothing phobic about it. She knew her lover one way for quite a while and then she needed to view her lover in quite another. She did not know if she would lose their lesbian friends or how it would affect their life.

I believe that there is a grieving process involved for any change as massive as this one.

The documentary showed hers. As her lover transitioned-he became happier while she dealt with her sadness. In the end, it appeared that the love that she had for him was greater than her fears of loss and they remained together.

As a lesbian, I do not know what I would do in the same situation but would like to think that I would be able to process it in a healthy fashion and as the romantic that I am-believe that love can conquer all.

I think that having your partner transition would be quite different than meeting someone new and knowing from them from the beginning as trans.

[Jett]

I've really never understood how a partner who decides to leave someone who is transitioning could be automatically labeled transphobic (though I know sometimes they are).

If I don't find my life mate in a man it doesn't mean misandry is afoot, it means I'm a lesbian, to sweeten the pot, not just lesbian I am highly attracted to a fairly high degree of "femininity", it's what makes my heart initially go boom. Funny too because like I said, hardly misandry, I've found attraction to a few men who were highly feminine in there masculinity (I know that makes sense probably only to me but what the hey).

From my pov, cause it's all I got, I am with a very feminine femme and she has my heart... even if she turned into a big ol' burly butch (let alone transitioning) I would struggle very very VERY hard with that. I would try damn hard because I love her so much... but if that physical, emotional reaction, attraction is not there after her changes would we not be just best of loving friends? Would I be expected to remain with her out of political correctness? I don't think it would be healthy, we both deserve better.

In any relationship, communication is key, in the situation presented (OP) I'd think a person fearing being wrongly labeled transphobic could permanently shut down that critical flow in the time it most needed for both people involved.

[Ebon]

Agree with both of the last two posts so much! The term 'transphobic' gets tossed around so much lately - likewise, the term misogyny is coming up more and more often, directed at transmen. A person is not transphobic because they choose to leave, when a partner chooses to transition. A person is not transphobic because they choose not to date a trans person. A transman is not misogynistic because he chooses to transition. When I think transphobia or misogyny, I think hate and bias. I think, as a community, we're too critical of one another, and WAY too quick to throw these terms at one another.

Thank you!!!

[Stacy]

From my pov, cause it's all I got, I am with a very feminine femme and she has my heart... even if she turned into a big ol' burly butch (let alone transitioning) I would struggle very very VERY hard with that. I would try damn hard because I love her so much... but if that physical, emotional reaction, attraction is not there after her changes would we not be just best of loving friends? Would I be expected to remain with her out of political correctness? I don't think it would be healthy, we both deserve better.


This is an excellent point. I have heard the stories of several MTF's and some FTM's where they were ultra masculine or feminine just to try to be the best they could be in their biological sex. Therefore it could happen for someone to get involved in a relationship with someone who is ultra femme but then decides to transition. Although it would be rare, it could happen. It would be a good thing I think for people who have decided to transition to stop and think for a bit about how they'd feel if the shoe was on the other foot.

I remember asking Michael once how he would feel if either one of our girly, girl daughters came to us and told us they had always felt male and wanted to transition. He admitted that while he would be 100% supportive, he would still struggle with it. I believe that is a completely natural response. I believe most of us have a degree of fear of the unknown. I believe we all would go through some degree of mourning for the person "as we knew them".

As Jett said, constant & open communication is of the utmost importance. There will be questions that need to be answered. There will be things to learn by both the person transitioning and the people that love & support them. There will be tears, there will be emotions, and just maybe....
There Will Be Blood. (Okay, not so much of the last part, but I couldn't help myself.) :)

[Cin]

If they find their partner "hard to love" because of their transition...maybe a break up is better for both, because I know I wouldn't want to be "harder to love" just because of who I am.

It probably wasn't meant this way, but this statement feels like it minimizes the process someone would need to go through when faced with the woman you love becoming the man you love. Maybe it's the use of quotes. Or maybe it is simply the tone I am reading into it because of the quotes.

I don't think someone becomes more difficult to love because of who they are but they may not be someone who you can be in love with if they are a man and you are not attracted to men or they are a woman and you are not attracted to woman. Makes sense to me. It's not about the person being harder to love because of who they are.

And this is where I get back to the questions I was trying to ask before:

At what point does being angry or hurt stop justifying the use of transphobic language. Does it ever? Or is transphobic language always something that trans people should just have to put up with if the person using it is "hurting" or dealing with a partner's transition.


No-one needs to put up with phobic language surrounding their identity. However, sometimes pain and anger make us see things in a very myopic way. It does not justify it, but it might, in this case, allow that perhaps the person who used the language is not necessarily transphobic just insensitive. Or not. And trans people or any people for that matter don't have to put up phobic language surrounding their identity because the person using it is hurting or dealing with a partner's transition or whatever. Maybe her husband will because he understands her pain and wants to make allowances or maybe he won't but surely no-one else needs to even consider putting up with it or making allowances at all if they don't want to. And how will she know she is acting in way that is transphobic if no-one tells her. If people explain that what she is saying is hurtful and transphobic and she refuses to accept this and find another way to say the same thing then she IS simply transphobic.

However, it sounds like there is more than her language that is upsetting. It sounds like the idea that someone would be harder to love because of who they are is also a hurtful idea. But I don't think it is about who someone is at all. It might feel that way. But it is not about being harder to love it is simply that people cannot choose what they are sexually attracted to and who they fall in love with. If it is possible for a person to continue to be in love with and sexually attracted to their spouse after transition then i"m sure they will be thrilled. But I don't think it is a choice. And I'm fairly positive that it won't be any harder one way or the other to love the person. They just may not be able to be IN love any longer.

[Cin]

I just wanted to add that I feel the title the woman chose for her blog post is unfortunate. I have been thinking how I would react if my wife decided that she felt she was really a man and needed to transition. I can’t imagine that after loving her for almost nine years that I would find it hard to love him. I may no longer feel the same attraction for him, I may no longer be in love with him, but it would never be that it was hard or easy to love him, it would just simply be, that I do love him. But most likely for me the love would change because I am attracted to women.

I'm sure that's what she meant and finding her way to the IN love again part is what she was referring to. It just made me feel a certain way to read the title of the thread and it took awhile to figure out what was going on for me.

[Stacy]

I just wanted to add that I feel the title the woman chose for her blog post is unfortunate.

I agree...
I have found loving a transman to be the easiest, sweetest, most rewarding love of my life.

[lettertodaddy]

We don't know that the author chose it as the title - it could've been the site editors.

[Cin]

We don't know that the author chose it as the title - it could've been the site editors.

Ah. Okay. That makes more sense. Cause really it is an odd title choice. And doesn't really reflect what she is saying very well.

[EnderD_503]

It probably wasn't meant this way, but this statement feels like it minimizes the process someone would need to go through when faced with the woman you love becoming the man you love. Maybe it's the use of quotes. Or maybe it is simply the tone I am reading into it because of the quotes.

I don't think someone becomes more difficult to love because of who they are but they may not be someone who you can be in love with if they are a man and you are not attracted to men or they are a woman and you are not attracted to woman. Makes sense to me. It's not about the person being harder to love because of who they are.

I used quotations because of the title of the article in question, which is Loving a Trans Man Isn't Easy. Funny enough, I feel like that statement minimizes what trans people go through before finally making the decision to transition. The decision to transition is who they are. The reason transitions are so painful to family and friends to begin with is because of the nature of society, not because of the nature of the trans person.

If they are no longer sexually attracted to their partner, then the decision should be fairly simple: to end the relationship.

No-one needs to put up with phobic language surrounding their identity. However, sometimes pain and anger make us see things in a very myopic way. It does not justify it, but it might, in this case, allow that perhaps the person who used the language is not necessarily transphobic just insensitive. Or not. And trans people or any people for that matter don't have to put up phobic language surrounding their identity because the person using it is hurting or dealing with a partner's transition or whatever. Maybe her husband will because he understands her pain and wants to make allowances or maybe he won't but surely no-one else needs to even consider putting up with it or making allowances at all if they don't want to. And how will she know she is acting in way that is transphobic if no-one tells her. If people explain that what she is saying is hurtful and transphobic and she refuses to accept this and find another way to say the same thing then she IS simply transphobic.

The reason I started commenting on this thread is not because of what her husband may or may not be feeling. It's been stated before that he commented that he doesn't take offense to the use of the word tranny because it's a part of his identity. My issue is with the way she talks about a group of "rah rah tranny people", not her husband. We have to remember that this is not a blog. This isn't a forum post. This is an article in a popular Canadian lesbian and gay newspaper. Something tells me that she isn't completely oblivious to how her words can hurt others. The comments by other Vancouverites has told her that those words were offensive to others, if she hadn't figured it out by the time she wrote the article. In fact, the reason the two statements were made seem directly in response to the kind of people who would call out those kind of statements as transphobic. She seems to see making those statements as a part of her grief. Others see it as transphobic because she is not directly talking about her own coping process, but her anger against others who would even use the word transphobia against her.

If they incorrectly called her transphobic because of the fact that she had to cope with her husband's transition and not immediately feel alright with it, then she should have just said she doesn't like being called transphobic because of her uncertainty or feelings of grief over the transition. She doesn't need to reply to them with statements that are transphobic.

My reasons for participating in this thread are not about her grieving process or to criticize it. That is not transphobic. This is not about whether or not she finds her husband attractive or not. That is not transphobic. This is not about whether she ever considered or ever will leave her husband because he is a transman. That, I don't see as transphobic. It's the two statements she made, that I've been pointing out, which carry with them a lot of transphobia.

However, it sounds like there is more than her language that is upsetting. It sounds like the idea that someone would be harder to love because of who they are is also a hurtful idea. But I don't think it is about who someone is at all. It might feel that way. But it is not about being harder to love it is simply that people cannot choose what they are sexually attracted to and who they fall in love with. If it is possible for a person to continue to be in love with and sexually attracted to their spouse after transition then i"m sure they will be thrilled. But I don't think it is a choice. And I'm fairly positive that it won't be any harder one way or the other to love the person. They just may not be able to be IN love any longer.

If the person you love is no longer "easy" to love, or is "harder" to love because of their transition (aka: who they are), which is what the title states, then I don't see the point of the relationship anymore. That's just me. It's not about it being "hurtful," as you say, but I just don't see the point of maintaining that kind of relationship. Some people work it out, that's good for them. Others don't and they split. Good on them, too. Leaving a relationship because your partner is trans isn't transphobic. At least they're being honest and admitting that they don't want that kind of relationship. I'd prefer that to being told I'm not "easy" to love. But to each their own on that point.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I don't have any problem with the title. She was writing about her own experience. For her, it is hard. She's allowed to feel that and she's allowed to say it. Other people in a similar situation are allowed to see that it's not just them, and there's not something wrong with them because they feel the same way. Even if everyone else around them is treating them like they're a terrible person for having trouble, for not instantly knowing the "right" words to use, or for failing to be 100% joyfully supportive. I hope she continues to write about her experience and her feelings, and I hope she doesn't allow herself to be intimidated into silence.

[CockyDude]

I have been following this thread and have to admit it's been very informative and has been for the most part a great dialogue. I don't particularly care for labels but I understand the need for them at times. I listed myself as FTM (shorter than transsexual) but I am a man. Always have been except when I was a boy. Like somebody referred to a friend of theirs in a previous post, I have had NO contact with other transsexuals & very little contact with the LGBT community. I totally understand someone using terminology that could/would be offensive to others. For myself all I know is I was definately born in the wrong vessel. Just as people don't choose to be gay, I wouldn't wish this physical hell on anybody. Having said all that, IN MY OPINION this thread seemed to veer off course, to me. It seems to be centered around semantics and terminology. The title is loving a trans man can't be easy. And I'm sure it isn't any easier than being one. This thread did make me think about a lot of issues. My women have all been straight. The reveal was always harder for me than them. Course, I always waited until we were already emotionally vested and I felt she was past the point of no return (yes, I really am that cocky). However, I really never knew any of them to have issues although after reading this thread they must have. Shouldn't they have? Or did they not have any because they fell for a man and didn't have to question their own identity? In the end, the women that have loved me and that I loved me did have a difficult time. Was it because I am a trans man? Kinda. I'm also an ass, a jerk and often caustic and insensitive. Because I'm a trans man. Because I have my own demons.

[Sparx1_1]

I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that when a person transitions - they are making a choice and doing it willingly. It's not a simple or easy process and they need and deserve the support they get. The problem is that there really isn't much thought given to the wives and girlfriends who are forced into transitions of their own as part of his transition.

Their partners don't necessarily have a choice. They didn't ask for it and they are very often labelled transphobic if they do decide they can't or won't deal with it. They are expected to be the supporters but are rarely supported themselves. They are not allowed to grieve for the things they will lose - their female partner, their queer identity, their visibility. For them it ends up being a very big trap that very few can navigate successfully. Like it or not, some resentment, frustration, and anger will usually be part of the process and the world of kindness and PC-speak might just take a (hopefully short) vacation.

Almost all of us lost friends and family simply by coming out of the closet. We lost jobs, homes and opportunities that we can never get back. Femmes in particular already struggle with invisibility both inside and outside the queer community. After such a long, hard uphill battle just to be who you are, why would anyone expect them to be PC about being faced with the transition of someone they love?

Transitioning puts the partner back in the closet. After all I've been through just to come out of my closet, I sure as hell would not be the least bit pleasant or nice about being tucked back into one. But - when you are emotionally invested in someone, you don't just walk away. You stay, you struggle and you try to work it out; that is what a committed relationship is all about.

[julieisafemme]

I am reponsible for finding my own support or creating it where it does not exist. A lot of the challenge for partners in my experience does stem from transphobia. I don't like the idea that I am somehow silenced or not supported. I don't feel that way. Is it readily available? No. Are these conversations happening? Yes! I am concerned about the tone of this thread being about partners not being heard. There are a lot of factors that go in to that. No relationship is easy. I am not easy to love by any means.

There are specific issues that partners of transpeople have to deal with. The writer of that article spoke up about these. I understand her words might have upset some people. I needed to hear what she said and I hope other partners can feel empowered to talk about it too. I am not a victim of my partners transition or gender identity.

[Quintease]

I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that when a person transitions - they are making a choice and doing it willingly. It's not a simple or easy process and they need and deserve the support they get. The problem is that there really isn't much thought given to the wives and girlfriends who are forced into transitions of their own as part of his transition.

Their partners don't necessarily have a choice. They didn't ask for it and they are very often labelled transphobic if they do decide they can't or won't deal with it. They are expected to be the supporters but are rarely supported themselves. They are not allowed to grieve for the things they will lose - their female partner, their queer identity, their visibility. For them it ends up being a very big trap that very few can navigate successfully. Like it or not, some resentment, frustration, and anger will usually be part of the process and the world of kindness and PC-speak might just take a (hopefully short) vacation.

Transitioning puts the partner back in the closet. After all I've been through just to come out of my closet, I sure as hell would not be the least bit pleasant or nice about being tucked back into one. But - when you are emotionally invested in someone, you don't just walk away. You stay, you struggle and you try to work it out; that is what a committed relationship is all about.


That's what I read into it. This woman talked at length about being closeted and finally feeling free, yet suddenly she's back where she started and it hurt.

That resonated with me as I had often wondered how things would have turned out had I stayed with my first trans partner (many years ago). He was still in that transient place, between woman and man, and I was an out and proud lesbian, still fighting my corner to be recognised as a feminine lesbian. I really struggled with the realisation ..and guilt.. that a life with him, meant a life of invisibility. Luckily (possibly more for him!) other things intervened and we went our separate ways.

My current partner had long been part of my life before we got together. Perhaps that emotional connection softened the blow, or perhaps my identity doesn't really mean that much to me any more. Unlike the author of that article I have been out for many, many years and many girlfriends have come and gone. I read that article and feel proud for her that ultimately, she loved her partner more than she grieved her own losses.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I am reponsible for finding my own support or creating it where it does not exist. A lot of the challenge for partners in my experience does stem from transphobia. I don't like the idea that I am somehow silenced or not supported. I don't feel that way. Is it readily available? No. Are these conversations happening? Yes! I am concerned about the tone of this thread being about partners not being heard. There are a lot of factors that go in to that. No relationship is easy. I am not easy to love by any means.

There are specific issues that partners of transpeople have to deal with. The writer of that article spoke up about these. I understand her words might have upset some people. I needed to hear what she said and I hope other partners can feel empowered to talk about it too. I am not a victim of my partners transition or gender identity.

That's great that your experience has been good. It's great that you don't feel silenced or supported. That's you. A lot of people don't have good experiences and do feel silenced and not supported. Those people aren't wrong or to blame for having a different experience from yours, and they're transphobic because their experience is different.

[julieisafemme]

That's great that your experience has been good. It's great that you don't feel silenced or supported. That's you. A lot of people don't have good experiences and do feel silenced and not supported. Those people aren't wrong or to blame for having a different experience from yours, and they're transphobic because their experience is different.

I don't think I said that my experience was good. I am not saying that anyone is wrong or to blame for having a different experience. I don't feel
silenced because I speak out. I feel supported because I have worked hard to find the support I need. You're right, that's me. I don't think I need to apologize for that. I would not want someone who is just starting with a transgender partner to feel like it is all silence, no support or pain. There was not a lot of support for same sex partners in the past. We have to build those networks and support one another.

So much of the alienation and lack of support I have experienced was from the queer community. That was a bitter pill for me to swallow. I was newly out when I met my partner and all the issues we have been discussing like feeling closeted really took a toll on me in the beginning. I felt like I was not accepted as a lesbian. That hurt so much. It was not what I expected coming out but I met my partner and he is a Transman.

Bit by bit it has gotten better as I have tried to make myself more vulnerable and ask for what I need in my community. Sometimes I still feel alone and like a lesser being in the queer world. I try to be present and sit with that discomfort. Just as you said that people don't want to be judged or blamed, I don't want to either. I'm sorry if you or others interpreted me that way. I am trying to share my experiences.

[Soon]

That's what I read into it. This woman talked at length about being closeted and finally feeling free, yet suddenly she's back where she started and it hurt.

That resonated with me as I had often wondered how things would have turned out had I stayed with my first trans partner (many years ago). He was still in that transient place, between woman and man, and I was an out and proud lesbian, still fighting my corner to be recognised as a feminine lesbian. I really struggled with the realisation ..and guilt.. that a life with him, meant a life of invisibility. Luckily (possibly more for him!) other things intervened and we went our separate ways.

My current partner had long been part of my life before we got together. Perhaps that emotional connection softened the blow, or perhaps my identity doesn't really mean that much to me any more. Unlike the author of that article I have been out for many, many years and many girlfriends have come and gone. I read that article and feel proud for her that ultimately, she loved her partner more than she grieved her own losses.


It seems that you are suggesting in the words I bolded that those who have issues with their partner's transition are selfish in that their needs are taking precedence and that that they just don't love their partner enough if they can't forge a future with them b/c of of it.


If I am reading this correctly, I think that is an unfair implication to those partners who struggle in so many ways--one of the major struggles and mind fucks is that YOU DO still love them but must balance that love with one's own needs and not negate one's own struggles and desires.

[SelfMadeMan]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about what the lesbian partners of transmen must go through... and reading everyone's input here. I want to preface this post by saying that I speak from some of our experiences - not suggesting this is true for everyone in every place. Certainly some places have more trans support than others. But as I was sitting here pondering this issue... it dawned on me that in many relationships with transmen, when in the company of other transmen/couples, their lesbian partners aren't really encouraged to speak out about what might be uncomfortable for them during their partner's transition. I have seen, and we have experienced, the ostracizing of a lesbian by her lesbian community for partnering with a transman. And then there are the hetero friends you make - since you're viewed as just another hetero couple by society - the friends you can't always even be open and honest with about your trans partner. So oftentimes, a lesbian who chooses to partner with, or stay with a transman has no real outlet for the very real emotions and fears she is dealing with.

So, I'm happy to see these dialogues taking place, I know my wife has dealt with these issues and felt she had to become invisible again to fully support me - and that was my fault for worrying so much about being stealth and wanting to blend in. Wanting every rainbow sticker peeled off, and put away. Our relationship has grown and been so much more comfortable for both of us with my becoming an out transman. I'm not saying everyone has to be out - there are ways to support your partner as a 'stealth' transman and let her be honest - let her be vulnerable. By remembering that she is transitioning too.

I will say though, that being out and visible sure made life easier for not only me - but for the hot queer girl I married :)

[Quintease]

It seems that you are suggesting in the words I bolded that those who have issues with their partner's transition are selfish in that their needs are taking precedence and that that they just don't love their partner enough if they can't forge a future with them b/c of of it.

Actually that's not what I'm saying at all, but then again, don't most breakups involve selfishness of some sort? I have no judgements on couples that don't last as I'm far more interested in couples that do!

[Nat]

I struggled to get myself out of the closet, and I made a decision at some point that nobody will be shoving me back into one. My life is as important as the life of whomever I'm with. When I came out, I found myself attracted to people with an entire array of identities - and matching an identity with the attraction/chemistry was like playing pin-the-tail-on-the-sexy-ass-masculine-person-in-a-seemingly-female-body. It took me a while to learn that however a person presents on the outside, there's no telling how that person identifies or feels on the inside unless it's discussed honestly.

Of the people I've dated since coming out, some have been butch, some have been trans, some have been bois, some have not identified, some have been femmish (I'm using the term "date" very loosely here...).

I've known many who have spoken of transitioning and not gone through with it (at least not yet). I've known others who never speak of it, then just start it.

I think honesty is a two-way street, and you can only admit to somebody else what you are willing to admit to yourself. Since I spent much time figuring out my gender and orientation and what I want in life and relationship and communing with my community, I try to be out and open early-on that I identify as a lesbian and do not want to ever ever go back in the closet. I don't want to live a closeted life or have to pretend to be straight for the sake of my partner. I wasn't happy in my "heterosexual" marriage. I wouldn't leave my girlfriend if she decided to transition - and I'd still love her and think she was hot as hell. But I wouldn't pretend to be straight in order to fit myself into the world that her transition might create. I would miss her as she is now, but I would adore her regardless. I don't have the inner resources or desire to create and protect a "stealth" life - and if asked to do so I don't think I could if I tried - and I don't think I would try. I think it can be really difficult when one person being true to himself becomes at-odds with a femme's being true to herself. Love has the capacity to make many things possible and to overcome many difficulties, but I'm pretty committed to being true to myself no matter what goes on with my partner. I definitely think femmes are expected to cheerlead unforeseen transitions, to never complain or express what they have every right to. If I transitioned, I wouldn't expect any stand-by-your-man business from my partner - I would appreciate her being there and loving me and staying with me, but not if she felt like it compromised who she is or if she couldn't feel herself attracted to me as a man.

** edited to add: there was a time when I found myself so attracted to so many transguys I met that I thought I wasn't a lesbian. It was only after breaking down my own gender experience (feeling bigendered) and examining carefully the reality of my attractions that I was able to identify as a lesbian. I have been very enamoured of transmen from time to time, and the guy part of me so yearns to experience what the girl part of me won't let him - and so I tend to vicariously enjoy and identify with transguys. I sort of had to take my glasses off and *play the tape to the end* to realize that one day I'd end up back in the same place I left - closeted, with secrets, isolated from my community, isolated from my own truth. My partner has expressed to me that in the past she assumed she would one day transition - but that she changed her mind at some point. Sometimes I ask her about that, but I don't get clear answers back. She said once that she decided one day she'd rather be a "strong woman" than a man, that much of her feeling had more to do with falling in love with straight women in the past and wishing she could be what they wanted. But I do keep it in the back of my head that transition may be part of the future I have with her - the future is uncharted - but we both know as much as we can about where each of us is regarding the subject.

[Quintease]

My women have all been straight. However, I really never knew any of them to have issues although after reading this thread they must have. Shouldn't they have? Or did they not have any because they fell for a man and didn't have to question their own identity?

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[Greyson]

I realize this thread is focused on "Loving a Transman" in a romantic way. I do want to point out that we can love a Transman in an unromantic sexual way and this friendship love may still require a friend to go on a journey of sorts with their Transman friend.

I am a Transman. (Do not assume because I say I am a Transman that I think I am some sort of mistake or I believe myself to be the same as a cisman.) Back to loving a Transman.

I have friends, that are Transmen and I care about them deeply. Because I am part of their circle, the people they share their authentic life with, I also am expected on some level to respect their choices. If I cannot respect their choices, do I leave their life? Maybe, maybe not. I have a very strong Queer identity. I go into a closet for no one. Not even myself. For me I cannot be in the closet, stealth. Does this make be a better person? IMO, No. It is my choice to be out. Now, I also have Transmen in my life that I care about and love as a fellow human being. It can and has challenged our friendship. I can and will respect their choice to be in the closet and or to leave their Queer identity, allegience behind. (Not all Transmen make that choice, some do.)

I find I still can love this guy and support him but our friendship may be tried. I will hold my tongue and not speak freely if we are with his straight friends that are not privy to the truth of his past life. It is also my choice to decide do I stay in my friend's life or not. As they also choose do they keep a person such as me in their life.

That's it.

[Gemme]

I guess I have become confused as to the purpose of this thread...

It'll come around again...you know us...we have to take the long road to get to the nearest town in serious discussions.

:)

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

(from the original article)




....but no one discusses this

Ebon is the second Transguy I've been with. The first relationship was doomed from the beginning for one reason and no matter how wonderful the other stuff may or may not have been, it was not going to work because of this.

He wanted to sever all ties with the LGBT3Q2I community as if he didn't have his birth defect all those years and he expected...nay, demanded...that I follow suit.

First of all, you damn well don't DEMAND I follow in your footsteps like that and certainly not about anything that's so life changing.

Secondly, you don't get to decide how the rest of anyone else's like plays out except yours.

Third, no matter how I identify...and it's changed over the years...I will always be a part of this community.

Luckily for Ebon, he knows and respects this.

I thought we were discussing it. What do you want to discuss about it? It will be different here than in a room full of partners. I am ok with discussions of transphobia as well as sharing my experience.

I agree that's it's all interconnected by I came in here to read about what femmes in relationships like mine had to say, not necessarily fighting over context and vocabulary.

When I first came out, I hung out at the only gay bar in the little redneck county I lived in. It had an awesome but small drag show and there was always a bevy of beautiful queens and MtF performers there. I learned their lingo and they often used 'tranny' to describe themselves and one another in jest and complete seriousness and it was a perfectly acceptable term.

Maybe it was because there were a lot of gay men there and gay men are very influential. Maybe it was because that's the only terms they knew. Maybe it's because that's what they felt best suited them at that time.

I'm not sure. All I knew was that that was another word to add to my expanding vocabulary. It was only when I came onto sites like this did I realize that others did not share that same or similar experience with the word. Before I realized how offensive it was to some, I felt it was like dyke...a word that could be used against our community by those outside of it for the purposes of hurting or shaming us, but that we could take it back and empower ourselves with it. Not so much, I guess. But part of what makes our community so unique is our diversity and, with that, comes differences in all aspects of our lives.

I think what's being overlooked here is the fact that when a person transitions - they are making a choice and doing it willingly. It's not a simple or easy process and they need and deserve the support they get. The problem is that there really isn't much thought given to the wives and girlfriends who are forced into transitions of their own as part of his transition.

Their partners don't necessarily have a choice. They didn't ask for it and they are very often labelled transphobic if they do decide they can't or won't deal with it. They are expected to be the supporters but are rarely supported themselves. They are not allowed to grieve for the things they will lose - their female partner, their queer identity, their visibility. For them it ends up being a very big trap that very few can navigate successfully. Like it or not, some resentment, frustration, and anger will usually be part of the process and the world of kindness and PC-speak might just take a (hopefully short) vacation.

Almost all of us lost friends and family simply by coming out of the closet. We lost jobs, homes and opportunities that we can never get back. Femmes in particular already struggle with invisibility both inside and outside the queer community. After such a long, hard uphill battle just to be who you are, why would anyone expect them to be PC about being faced with the transition of someone they love?

Transitioning puts the partner back in the closet. After all I've been through just to come out of my closet, I sure as hell would not be the least bit pleasant or nice about being tucked back into one. But - when you are emotionally invested in someone, you don't just walk away. You stay, you struggle and you try to work it out; that is what a committed relationship is all about.

Exactly!!!!

Being the partner of a transitioning person can be another coming out....or pushing in, as the case may be. A rebirth of sorts, but one we have little to no control over. For control freaks like me, it can be a scary ass thing.

I remember sitting in my apartment and just curling up and crying when I was supposed to be on my way to see him. We lived about an hour and a half apart and saw each other on the weekends and odd days off during the week. I literally felt as if all my emotions had taken flight and were swirling around me, like a tornado funnel. I felt as if everything I knew was also in that funnel, just flying around me. Close enough to reach out and touch but I couldn't grasp any of it firmly. It felt like the emotional version of vertigo, like when you stand up too quickly and that momentary spacey swirly feeling, except it didn't go away after a second. It didn't stop. Not until the relationship ended.

In the end, he was demanding things of me that he had no right to demand and I was too naive to know that. I felt that I was doing it wrong. I was not playing the right role in our relationship and that was somehow hurting him. I felt that I was secondary to what was happening to him and that I was a bad girlfriend for speaking in any way that could be determined to be or twisted to be negative. I felt sad. Depressed. Unworthy. Incompetent.

I had given up a wonderful man when I came out. I was married to the sweetest guy and I broke his heart into a million pieces. I had built my life back up from nothing, because I took very little with me due to the shame I felt at hurting my husband. So, I had come from that mindset and I'd dated some and I was beginning to feel as if I had made the right decision and that things were going well.

And then I met him.

And then I was nothing.

Walking away from that relationship hurt and I left a lot of myself on the floor. It really pisses me off when folks try to shame those who leave. We all leave. The butch leaves when the Transguy develops. Sometimes, the femme leaves when the butch leaves and sometimes the femme leaves when the Transguy makes his appearance.

We. All. Leave.

Sometimes it *is* one person's fault. Most of the time, in these relationships that don't work out, it's no one's *fault*. It just is what it is.

Ebon and I have had 'leaving' discussions and have talked about all the 'if then' situations we could think of. We know that he will change as he delves deeper into his transition and, thus, I will change.

But, Hell. Everyone changes. Change is the ONLY thing that is guaranteed. With medical advances and the slickness of tax evasion nowadays, death and taxes aren't always a guarantee anymore.

Maybe we'll mesh more and have a stronger relationship. Maybe we'll drift apart. The one thing I am certain of is that we'll always be a part of one another's lives, no matter the capacity.

[Nat]

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

YES. "a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner"

This is hard to tolerate.

[Nat]

I realize this thread is focused on "Loving a Transman" in a romantic way. I do want to point out that we can love a Transman in an unromantic sexual way and this friendship love may still require a friend to go on a journey of sorts with their Transman friend.

I am a Transman. (Do not assume because I say I am a Transman that I think I am some sort of mistake or I believe myself to be the same as a cisman.) Back to loving a Transman.

I have friends, that are Transmen and I care about them deeply. Because I am part of their circle, the people they share their authentic life with, I also am expected on some level to respect their choices. If I cannot respect their choices, do I leave their life? Maybe, maybe not. I have a very strong Queer identity. I go into a closet for no one. Not even myself. For me I cannot be in the closet, stealth. Does this make be a better person? IMO, No. It is my choice to be out. Now, I also have Transmen in my life that I care about and love as a fellow human being. It can and has challenged our friendship. I can and will respect their choice to be in the closet and or to leave their Queer identity, allegience behind. (Not all Transmen make that choice, some do.)

I find I still can love this guy and support him but our friendship may be tried. I will hold my tongue and not speak freely if we are with his straight friends that are not privy to the truth of his past life. It is also my choice to decide do I stay in my friend's life or not. As they also choose do they keep a person such as me in their life.

That's it.

Love you Greyson :)

[Nat]

Honestly, when I read the phrase "rah rah tranny people" I figured she wasn't speaking about actual transpeople. I figured she was speaking about the cheerleaders, who may not actually be trans themselves.

It's like the term trannychaser. Which is a term I like, frankly. Because it's so fucking spot-on.

In other news: No. Nobody does talk about what it's like to be the SO of someone who is transitioning. It's just fucking not fashionable for the SO to have feelings, especially if not all of those feelings are "rah rah rah GOOOOOOOOOO transperson! wooo!"

True story. Someone I was living with (10 years ago) dropped the "oh hi, I just this week realised that I'm a man and next week I have an appointment at the gender clinic!" (liar liar liar) bomb on me shortly after we moved in together.

Now, he had money troubles. Big money troubles. I was working full-time and he was just on-call at his job. So sometimes I had to pay more than my share of our expenses. I was cool with that because I knew I made more money than he did. So after he started going to his appointments and support groups and hanging out with his cool new boyfriends - he also started buying a shitload of new clothes. I very specifically remember this one month he didn't have money for his half of the phonebill but the next day he came home with a new fucking hoodie. So I called him out on it and he was all *tearfull* *earnest* "But I feel like I pass better in this sweatshirt".

I. Completely. Lost. My. Shit. I absolutely said that "frankly I do not give a fuck if you pass or not at this juncture. Right now I am way more concerned about whether or not we get our telephone cut off." Aaaaaand the universe blew up. "I cannot believe you would say something so TRANSPHOBIC!" blah blah blah. Fuck, I even had to hear what a horrible person I am from some of our mutual friends who he has whined to.

Couple that with the fact that he was, honestly, my First Real Girlfriend and I was feeling real mindjobby about that too (because I was really REALLY stoked to have a First Real Girlfriend, let me tell you.) But you know, I was never allowed to say that out loud to him. And I was never allowed to talk to anybody else about it because saying outloud that I felt ripped off because I no longer had a girlfriend (and what I really wanted was a fucking girlfriend!) was TRANSPHOBIC.

And it really fucking sucks. We are not allowed to have any feelings or disclose any negative experiences because to do so is TRANSPHOBIC. It's almost as if as soon as the person we are with starts to transition we are no longer allowed to be people. We're not allowed to have feelings, unless they are "rah rah rah!".

ETA: More true stories! I have broken up with exactly two other people since then because they decided to transition after we got together. Not because I am TRANSPHOBIC (although I have heard that I am) but because that's just not the relationship that I want to be in. Early on in the transitioning process is often a really selfish/self-absorbed time-frame in a person's life...and so it should be. I certainly am not in any position to tell other people what they should or should not do...but I think it's a time-frame where people are best off single. Or at the very least they are (or I am, more likely) best off not dating ME.

love this post.

[julieisafemme]

I have not spent a lot of time with straight partners of transmen. Most of my experience is in the queer community and I did not have a strong lesbian identity at all. My partner is my first and only. I am sure this contributes greatly to my feeling out of place. My partner is out in all areas of his
life so the queer community is where we feel comfortable although not always welcome. I don't look for support on the straight community at all but the transphobia I experience there is more ignorance. I guess it hurts more coming from a queer person.

I do find places where we are welcome and fit in so this is less of a problem now. I do feel grateful that my partner is not stealth. That would be pretty hard for me.


I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.

*which seems fairly obvious now

[betenoire]

I hope she continues to write about her experience and her feelings, and I hope she doesn't allow herself to be intimidated into silence.

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.


This is an argument thrown at trans people by cis people on a daily basis. When a trans person calls a cis person out on transphobia, they frequently throw it back in our faces as though we're doing it just to play the victim, to hurt them, or act as though we have to be more tolerant of their inability to accept us (which really fucking gets me. Why are trans people always expected to have to put up with this? Because our mere existence is too difficult and confusing for everybody else?), or we're taking things too seriously, or we're too sensitive. That statement is so loaded with all of the above.

I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

[julieisafemme]

Wow that is awful. I have not experienced that in my partner group. No one has ever said that I or anyone else was transphobic. I actually have never had anyone tell me I am transphobic. It is more an internal policing of myself. I have said stupid stuff and had it brought to my attention but always in a kind way. We had many hair discussions in my group! I never felt like it was a competition to be the best supportive girlfriend. it felt like this was the one safe space where I could speak freely and not worry about hurting someone.

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.





I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

[atomiczombie]

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

[Stacy]

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO :)

[julieisafemme]

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO :)

I agree Stacy. The conversation is definitely going to be different here in a public forum but as I said before I am ok having it with the input of transmen.

[betenoire]

I agree Stacy. The conversation is definitely going to be different here in a public forum but as I said before I am ok having it with the input of transmen.

So long as the transpeople in question can go ahead and take a backseat since this is the Femme zone.

[SelfMadeMan]

Well, the way I see it, the partners here - who are so seldomly supported as they transition with their FTM partners - might benefit from seeing that there are transmen who do realize that there's a serious communication wall. I would be the first to leave if it were made clear that our input wasn't wanted here - but I feel it speaks to the fact that some of us have grown to realize that we've been ignorant in the past to our partners transition. I didn't come in here to interrupt the conversation or take it over, but to say, this is a serious issue that I've been guilty of contributing to, but have learned to listen to. When a lot of these women are accused of being transphobic for having issues with their partner's transition, I think it helps to have transguys step up and have their backs. That's all.

[julieisafemme]

So long as the transpeople in question can go ahead and take a backseat since this is the Femme zone.

For you yes. For me I have no expectations of this being a private space to have a conversation. As long as those participating are respectful then I am ok with it. I don't expect anyone to take a backseat.

[Stacy]

Well if that is the case then it's too bad it was posted here because I think the FTM's and butches that have posted here have added significantly to the conversation. There input would be missed by me. IMHO :)

Boy do I hate sleepy typos. :seeingstars:

[Martina]

i liked the article. While she should not have used that phrase, i don't like dismissing the article for that reason or making the discussion all about that.

What she was referring to is the cheerleading that goes on -- and the expectation of it. i think that someone struggling with a partner or family member's changes should not be burdened with expectations that they have to respond positively or else be considered a bad partner or family member.

They get to feel what they feel. In public, in a newspaper, yes, i would expect people to choose their words more wisely. But i get resenting the folks who expect one to only have positive feelings or feel guilty if not. A lot of that used to go on.

[CockyDude]

I've been thinking about this and what Juliaisafemme wrote.

All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out).

The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice.
*which seems fairly obvious now

I think some of the issues you have ran into are very common for straight women involved with trans men who are stealth (or even possibly not stealth). They are with a straight man and if you are a lesbian, they can't make a connection with you being with a man. For me personally, I could not be involved with a woman who clearly is lesbian. How would that work? For me, it couldn't. She loves women, and so do I but I am not one. I also am not active in the community and that would take a large part of who she is away from her. Just a quick thought and my .02.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Femmes are just as guilty of stepping into butch trans zones alllllll the time I'm not sure why at this point anyone is being asked to take a backseat because of people aren't agreeing. Would we say that to ftm/butches/nonfemnes if they chose to participate? Femmes aren't the only ones who love transmen..

No one is dismissing the article her use of verbiage deems her less credible "to me", taking a back seat to hurtful verbiage shouldn't be expected regardless of what zone we're in...

I wouldn't like it if someone threw racist verbiage to describe their relationship I would hope that just because it's an article or in some zone that it wouldn't get looked over...

[*Anya*]

I think it is difficult to have dialogue about anything without varying perspectives and points of view. I always read the differently ID'd zones and I have posted in zones that were not my own identity.

That said, I do wonder if people, in general, do mind that we all, at one time or another, post in zones that we do not ID.

Should we keep some spaces only for those that the zone ID's specifically, in that space? How would it even be policed?

This would be a good poll, I think.

[Quintease]

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

Yep, I have experienced something similar.

Was not impressed.

[Random]

For you yes. For me I have no expectations of this being a private space to have a conversation. As long as those participating are respectful then I am ok with it. I don't expect anyone to take a backseat.

How I read Bets post was...

All are welcome, but please remember that this IS in the femme zone. The topic is how partners of transpeople might be conflicted or feel less than positive about their partners transition.

I read it as, please participate but don't make it all about the trans experience from the trans side of it..

[DapperButch]

The OP did not state whether it is open for FTMs/transguys/others to post. I think that is typically the way we determine if others identities are welcome to post in a particular zone. I think that lettertodaddy needs to come back to say what is her preference. My guess is that she doesn't really have an investment in who posts in this thread, but it would be helpful if she came back and stated it clearly <waving to lettertodaddy>

For ME the way I approach threads that do not state the above is to tread lightly until I see how (in this case) femmes respond to other genders/identifiers posting. If it seems cool (which it has in this thread), then I may post. However, I still tend to feel like I need to "take a backseat" to the gender's/identifier's (in this case femmes) that the thread is in (and it does seem to ME that overall that is happening here...meaning the thread isn't being "taken over" by those who do not identify as femme).

ETA: My second paragarph is similar to what Random posted. I wrote my post prior to reading her post, but that covers mostly what I meant.

So long as the transpeople in question can go ahead and take a backseat since this is the Femme zone.

[The_Lady_Snow]

There are 102 replies to this thread 34 by butches and transmen the rest ate femme or women. That's hardly a take over. I still feel it's ok that some people have come into say that hurtful verbiage is not ok to just skip over. It's not something some people are willing to sweep under the rug, I can express my feelings all I want about the men in my life but certainly not in ugly words & derogatory slurs.

[Gemme]

I guess it hurts more coming from a queer person.


I find this true. The same statement or accusation can come from outside the community and I be fine with it (aka don't get my feathers ruffled by it) or can ignore the person or people saying it but when it comes from within the community, the wounds are far deeper and slower to heal. It truly does hurt more.

I think it is difficult to have dialogue about anything without varying perspectives and points of view. I always read the differently ID'd zones and I have posted in zones that were not my own identity.

That said, I do wonder if people, in general, do mind that we all, at one time or another, post in zones that we do not ID.

Should we keep some spaces only for those that the zone ID's specifically, in that space? How would it even be policed?

This would be a good poll, I think.

This discussion has come and gone a number of times over the years. I'm not sure if there was ever a definitive decision on it but you are right in that policing it would be a logistical nightmare and not everyone plays nicely or shares well, especially if it's a hot topic.

How I read Bets post was...

All are welcome, but please remember that this IS in the femme zone. The topic is how partners of transpeople might be conflicted or feel less than positive about their partners transition.

I read it as, please participate but don't make it all about the trans experience from the trans side of it..

I read her that way too.

[betenoire]

The OP did not state whether it is open for FTMs/transguys/others to post. I think that is typically the way we determine if others identities are welcome to post in a particular zone. I think that lettertodaddy needs to come back to say what is her preference. My guess is that she doesn't really have an investment in who posts in this thread, but it would be helpful if she came back and stated it clearly <waving to lettertodaddy>

Now I'm certainly not trying to answer for anybody who is not me, but the OP -did- thank the post (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=444056&postcount=90) where atomiczombie pointed out that this thread is likely in the femme zone for a reason.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I posted this in the femme zone instead of the trans zone because it was written by a femme whose "perfect masculine woman" began transitioning to male four months after they married. I posted it because I've not read many transitioning stories written from a femme's perspective.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/Loving_a_trans_man_isnt_easy-10868.aspx



The OP does NOT clarify if butches/guys/bois/boys/ can or can't give imput in the convo nor has she till this point. Now have there been differences in opinions yes, have people pointed out verbiage yes.

105 posts later and 34 posts are made by non femmes and have been done so in a conducive manner.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

No flames from me. I absolutely appreciate your saying this.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

Oh good. Is her blog linked in the article? I didn't see it. Can you direct me?

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

Weren't we *just* having a conversation about that sort of thing? ;)

I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

All of this.

It happens from all sides. The support group I was banned from started out being just for non-trans partners. Then some of the trans partners felt excluded, like they weren't allowed in the group because there was something "wrong" with them. Well, no, they weren't allowed because the group wasn't for them. But they put up a stink, and no one wanted to be called transphobic, so they were allowed into the group with the caveat that they were just there to observe and the group was still a safe space for partners to talk about their feelings. Then a few of the trans partners felt "silenced" by that caveat, and you know we can't have that. I entered the group while all of this was going on, and it didn't take long at all for it to become clear that while the group's mission statement said it was a safe space for partners of transfolk to discuss their feelings, it was anything but. There was a faction in the group who seemed to be there solely to lie in wait for someone to say something they didn't like so they could pounce. By the time I was banned, the group had turned almost entirely into a competition to prove who could be the most supportive of trans people and call out the most transphobia. It certainly wasn't a place where any partner of a person in transition could express that they weren't feeling so great about that.

I found the same thing all over town. There were at the time 4 or 5 in-person support groups in Portland that I was able to track down, and every one had an inclusive policy that pretty well defeated the purpose of a support group for me. The whole concept of partners discussing transition and related issues out of earshot of trans people was apparently offensive. I asked a couple of the organizers of those groups if they knew of any groups that were *just* for non-trans partners, and I got called transphobic for that, too.

I'm glad to hear that there are such groups elsewhere, but I didn't have access to any of them.

[betenoire]

Oh good. Is her blog linked in the article? I didn't see it. Can you direct me?

I put it in your rep notes just now. :)

Weren't we *just* having a conversation about that sort of thing? ;)

YES!

Also some obnoxious people have followed her to her blog to yell at her in the comments. I want to find each one of them and do them bodily harm.

I hope that nobody HERE is harassing her. And if you are, know this: I don't fucking like you.

[betenoire]

I asked a couple of the organizers of those groups if they knew of any groups that were *just* for non-trans partners, and I got called transphobic for that, too.

I forgot to respond to this part. I almost choked on my coffee when I read it!

Because, honestly, it is wildly inappropriate that these groups operate any other way. They SHOULD be just for non-trans partners. PERHAPS if the trans partners weren't always fucking THERE in those groups people would tone down the performative "look how supportive and happy I am!" rhetoric and just be honest for 30 seconds.

[Soon]

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.



Just snipped part of what I need to address.

I, too, had a poor experience on a SOFFA group.

I expressed some concerns/anxieties and out of hundreds of members maybe two responded and I didn't feel very supported.

Also, there were transfolks that posted in the SOFFA group. I didn't feel comfortable with that b/c I wanted to share my personal thoughts/feelings about this experience, and I felt I had to censor myself b/c I might hurt someone's feelings.

If it is a group for SOFFA's why do I have to worry about what the transfolks thought of my thoughts? Then again, reading the past posts from the SOFFA partners, I also noticed there seemed to be an emphasis on how we can SUPPORT and cheerlead our partner's transition and not enough concern for the non-transitioning partner.

[julieisafemme]

I am so sorry to hear that so many people have had bad experiences in these groups. The group I attended was a facilitated group led by a therapist. It was small and you had to pay. We met once a month. There were only non- trans partners allowed. I would not want to participate in an online support group. I have too much trouble figuring things out and would surely say something that would piss people off. That does not happen in person. The group I was in was the only one like it. I have participated in other non-facilitated support groups before for OCD and those did not go well for me. I think maybe sometimes it helps to have a facilitator in difficult conversations. I am so sorry that so many other partners have experienced this.

[Soon]

I am so sorry to hear that so many people have had bad experiences in these groups. The group I attended was a facilitated group led by a therapist. It was small and you had to pay. We met once a month. There were only non- trans partners allowed. I would not want to participate in an online support group. I have too much trouble figuring things out and would surely say something that would piss people off. That does not happen in person. The group I was in was the only one like it. I have participated in other non-facilitated support groups before for OCD and those did not go well for me. I think maybe sometimes it helps to have a facilitator in difficult conversations. I am so sorry that so many other partners have experienced this.

I am glad you found a group to attend in real life and with a therapist--you are lucky.

I think it is safe to assume that most of us live in areas where we, unfortunately, don't have access to such groups and the only resources/forums are online.

I'm envious that you live in a area that is progressive and has multiple options for those who are trans and their partners, but, of course, also happy for you in that you have such resources that work for you.

[Quintease]

All of the above explains a lot.

When we first got together my husband and I tried to find a support group for me to join, but nothing. Ironically that search eventually led me here.

I did wonder why there wasn't a single support group when actually I know quite a few lesbians in relationships with transguys, both there from pre and post transition. It makes sense that groups fail to survive if they initially fail to provide a safe space.

Then again, is it the spaces or the partners themselves that are at fault? I know through personal experience that an FTM partner could potentially be the one to stab me in the back if she felt I was expressing an 'unacceptable' opinion.

Nor would I be likely to join a support group which granted my husband access. It should be an outlet for me to vent, free from the fear of hurting my relationship or his feelings.

I may just stick to writing down my thoughts and feelings here, tempered in the knowledge that all of my words are public property.

[nycfem]

MODERATION

A post was reported for possible concern regarding threatening language against other members. Mods have discussed, and the conclusion is:

Please remember that even though it might be being used as a figure of speech without any real intentions, it is against the TOS to make references to doing physical injury to others. Please take care to avoid these types of statements in the future.

Thank you.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I forgot to respond to this part. I almost choked on my coffee when I read it!

Because, honestly, it is wildly inappropriate that these groups operate any other way. They SHOULD be just for non-trans partners. PERHAPS if the trans partners weren't always fucking THERE in those groups people would tone down the performative "look how supportive and happy I am!" rhetoric and just be honest for 30 seconds.

This. Seriously. Could you imagine if you were in therapy and your partner demanded to come to your sessions to monitor what you were saying? Or if they got access to your therapist's notes so they could bring up things you'd said in your "safe space" later on in an argument? I really doubt that anyone would think that was okay, but apparently in this case it's supposed to be okay.

The really sad thing is that my experience was in Portland, OR. We have a huge LGBT community here. Sometimes I think the transmen in this town outnumber the female ID butches (they probably don't, but it feels that way on occasion). I think part of the problem here is that we've gone so far to the other side of the pendulum swing. So many people just don't have any access to support groups at all. Here, there are so many they're competing with each other, and they all seem to have decided the way to compete is by being the very most inclusive of all the inclusive groups. A large part of the Portland ethic is that you can never, ever be exclusionary about anything, ever. That sounds great on the surface, but what it actually translates to is hundreds of groups that aren't actually *about* anything. We have knitting clubs where half the members don't knit, cooking clubs where half the members don't cook, I recently joined the campus Queer Club, and only about 1/3 of the membership is actually LGBT. It used to be called something like LGBT Students of {college} but they changed it to Queer Club because people felt excluded. Because, you know, we're inclusive and that means it doesn't matter what the group is actually for, everyone who feels like coming is welcome whether they care about the stated purpose of the group or not.

[lettertodaddy]

Now I'm certainly not trying to answer for anybody who is not me, but the OP -did- thank the post (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=444056&postcount=90) where atomiczombie pointed out that this thread is likely in the femme zone for a reason.

Yeah, I can speak for myself. ;)

I thanked atomiczombie for hys post because I appreciated the sensitivity hy showed by realizing that this thread was posted in the Femme Zone, and as such, maybe it would be more appropriate for the discussion to take place among femmes only. I don't agree or disagree, I just wanted to thank hym for recognizing that it might be an issue for some folks.

As for me, this isn't my site, and I'm not interested in policing the thread. If others feel that this thread is best left to femmes only, I trust that they'll take that up with the site admins. I don't have a horse in this race one way or the other.

[lettertodaddy]

I also want to say without appearing flip that the only reason I posted this in the Femme zone was because the article was because it was from the POV of a femme involved with a transman. I don't want it to seem like I did it to exclude other voices or contributions, but that considering the subject and perspective, the Femme Zone seemed like the best place to post it.

[Words]

Blue isn't a transman but Hy's had top surgery and is on T, neither of which would have been possible were it not for Hys regular visits to a London based gender clinic.

The worst part of the whole experience from my point of view (apart from the awful mood swings that I put down to Blue being on the wrong medication)? Receiving a copy of the letter sent by the gender clinic psychologist to O/our family doctor and realizing that the most intimate details of my relationship with Blue in general and O/our sex life in particular were now no longer private. I was angry with the psychologist, I was angry with the system that made sharing the information a necessity, and for a time, yes, I was very resentful of the fact that no one - including Blue - had sought my permission to talk about things that related to my life as much as they related to Blue's (I still question the ethics of this and honestly feel that somewhere along the line, my permission should have been sought.)

Apart from that, no complaints whatsoever (apart from the 'man sweat' socks - those are nasty;))

Words

[Quintease]

The worst part of the whole experience from my point of view. Receiving a copy of the letter sent by the gender clinic psychologist to O/our family doctor and realizing that the most intimate details of my relationship with Blue in general and O/our sex life in particular were now no longer private. I was angry with the psychologist, I was angry with the system that made sharing the information a necessity

My husband and I have been looking into fertility treatment. I didn't realise the moment I told my gynaecologist that my husband was transsexual, we lost our right to privacy. It was awful and I felt violated, receiving copies of the letters she had written regarding our treatment and my husbands transsexuality. It's an endless journey my friend :sigh:

[DapperButch]

Just an FYI. I didn't realize this thread existed until it just came up to the front page:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=976

I haven't read this thread but I hope it is a place that is safe for partners to about their difficulties with their partner transitioning.

[julieisafemme]

I am glad you found a group to attend in real life and with a therapist--you are lucky.

I think it is safe to assume that most of us live in areas where we, unfortunately, don't have access to such groups and the only resources/forums are online.

I'm envious that you live in a area that is progressive and has multiple options for those who are trans and their partners, but, of course, also happy for you in that you have such resources that work for you.

I live in an area with lots of resources for transpeople. That does not seem to translate to partners! The way I found about this group was by meeting the therapist in Seattle when we went to Gender Odyssey. She is married to a Transman who is not out. So I think even here there are not multiple options for partners. That seems crazy to me and that is why I am focused on partners speaking up and creating what we need. The group I was in was small too. It seems like there must be more partners who would want to be in it.

Anyone who is interested in the therapists name and e-mail. She might be able to suggest someone or some place in other areas.

I am really upset to hear that so many groups allow transpeople in them. That makes it impossible to have an honest conversation. Partners need a space with other partners. Period. There is nothing transphobic about that.

[Quintease]

I've just had a thought.

There are FTM groups all over Facebook, my husband is on about 3 of them. Are there equivalent ones for partners on Facebook? Should there be? If not, why not?

Should we start one?

[iamkeri1]

My husband and I have been looking into fertility treatment. I didn't realise the moment I told my gynaecologist that my husband was transsexual, we lost our right to privacy. It was awful and I felt violated, receiving copies of the letters she had written regarding our treatment and my husbands transsexuality. It's an endless journey my friend :sigh:

The worst part of this is that the therapist often exaggerates (on paper)problems in a transpersons life since the more f'd up they are, the more likely they are to get insurance coverage for their transition. This exaggeration is then passed on, possibly endlessly, sending the impression of "malfunction" in the T person's life and relationship ahead of them to any treatment situation. My husband was the most loving, generous, stable, "normal" person you could hope to meet, yet his psych chart made him read like a paycho, LOL.

A piece of advice for those of you seeking fertility assistance. Unless you already have children, INSIST on having tests done to assure your own fertility before you submit to artificial insemination.

The women in my family have had many fertility issues. Two of my Aunts wre unable to conceive at all, My Mother had seven miscarriages and two live births, and the one fertile Aunt had eight live births, but also eight miscarriages. I brought this up with every doctor I saw, and also said I had never become pregnant in my earlier straight life, (short though it was!) NOOOOO! they wouldn't do any fertility tests, even though my periods were irregular and there was not much of a temperature change throughout my cycle. I endured many months of insemination and disappointment and EXPENSE.

Finally the third doctor I worked with agreed to do testing. Turned out both fallopian tubes were fully blocked and there was no possible way I could conceive without surgery. The surgery would produce only a 15% chance of conceiving, with a 50% chance of ectopic pregnancy. The low possible success rate, I could face, but not the ectopc pregnancy. To spend years trying to conceive (there is no way I could describe to you how stressful and emotionally painful this was), only to have to terminate the pregnancy in order to save my own life? No I could not face that. So we took some time to recover emotionally, and then we adopted (out of the foster care system.)

Blessings to all of you, and your partners as well.

Smooches,
Keri

[Linus]

I've just had a thought.

There are FTM groups all over Facebook, my husband is on about 3 of them. Are there equivalent ones for partners on Facebook? Should there be? If not, why not?

Should we start one?

There are some "SOFFA" groups out there (here's one I found, not sure how good: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=190034887698 ).

It may be worthwhile to create one that's for partners/family of transmen, specifically those within the BF community.

[Quintease]

A piece of advice for those of you seeking fertility assistance. Unless you already have children, INSIST on having tests done to assure your own fertility before you submit to artificial insemination.


In the UK fertility tests for both partners are mandatory if you have any kind of fertility issue. My hubby doesn't even have a sperm count but they STILL sent him off for a health check. If the paperwork isn't done then you do not get your treatment. That fact annoyed me, right up until I read your post. Now I am grateful.

[iamkeri1]

In the UK fertility tests for both partners are mandatory if you have any kind of fertility issue. My hubby doesn't even have a sperm count but they STILL sent him off for a health check. If the paperwork isn't done then you do not get your treatment. That fact annoyed me, right up until I read your post. Now I am grateful.

QT
I hadn't read your post till now. I'm glad my words helped ease your annoyance. It's so wonderful that you have health care available for your treatments. Good luck sweetie. Hope you are soon bouncing your sweet baby (gently, LOL) on your lap.
Smooches from the USA
Keri

[Soon]

Good for her. She's allowed to be upset and she's allowed to mourn. And she's allowed to express it however the hell she wants to express it.

I've been there. I wish 10 years ago that I had the kind of backbone of honesty that she has now.

---I agree---

[Vivacious1]

I respect the writer's honesty in her feelings! I understand what she is saying totally. I think it may be easy to get caught up on terminology that to some may be offensive, but to others it is not. I think that being with someone that is transitioning is quite difficult because what is so often not seen is that the couple is transitioning, not just the trans-person. It is a difficult lifestyle for many reasons, one which I believe can be worked out with the right communication etc, but for some it is impossible because the lack of understanding on either side.
This is something that I believe is discussed (probably at length) prior to the person transitioning but it is really reallllllly hard to know what you are really in for until the transition actually takes place. Beyond surgeries,testosterone, social issues etc, there are so many issues and adjustments that are required.

[Soon]

I have considered posting in this thread for awhile.

I just want to speak up for the femmes who loved their butches the way they were born.

I can't go further, emotionally, it is too hard.

Is there a space for women like me?

[SelfMadeMan]

I have considered posting in this thread for awhile.

I just want to speak up for the femmes who loved their butches the way they were born.

I can't go further, emotionally, it is too hard.

Is there a space for women like me?

I can only speak for myself - but I think your space is here.

I just want to add, that my wife had a very hard time with my having top surgery 7 years ago. She loved and accepted me 100% the way I was. I had already transitioned when we met, and she only knew me as male, but she loved and appreciated my body the way it was, and was afraid she wouldn't be attracted to me after surgery. She also felt guilty she said, for not wanting me to change my body just because she liked it - when she knew it caused me so much pain. We went through a very emotional time. I am happy to report though, that she was 100% fine with it afterwards and loves my chest now. I know this isn't exactly the same as a woman falling in love with a Butch woman who decides later to transition - I can't imagine how hard that would be - I did ID as a Butch prior to transition, but was single when I transitioned. It would've been very difficult had I done it while with a partner, I'm sure.

[Soon]

I had already transitioned when we met, and she only knew me as male,


Yeah, totally not what I was trying to get at.

[BrutalDaddy]

Yeah, totally not what I was trying to get at.


Maybe he misunderstood cause this is a thread about loving transmen?

There's tons of other threads about enjoying being with female/women ided butches from what I understand. Maybe try those out? Unless you're speaking of FTMs/transguys who do not ignore the fact they were female in the past? I know a few on here who have stated that and might be some threads on it.

I'm not exactly sure which you're speaking of so tried to cover both bases.


Just A Suggestion,
Brute.

[Soon]

BrutalDyke,

Have you read the thread? It's about femmes/women who have some difficulty with their partner's transition.

[DMW]

I respect the writer's honesty in her feelings! I understand what she is saying totally. I think it may be easy to get caught up on terminology that to some may be offensive, but to others it is not. I think that being with someone that is transitioning is quite difficult because what is so often not seen is that the couple is transitioning, not just the trans-person. It is a difficult lifestyle for many reasons, one which I believe can be worked out with the right communication etc, but for some it is impossible because the lack of understanding on either side.
This is something that I believe is discussed (probably at length) prior to the person transitioning but it is really reallllllly hard to know what you are really in for until the transition actually takes place. Beyond surgeries,testosterone, social issues etc, there are so many issues and adjustments that are required.

I can totally concur with what this woman has said. I have seen it and lived it. I was successful with my relationship. But, she told me..before i came out to her that she didn't want to be with another transman. And i told her anyway. We met when i was a butch...this is just a quick note. But, i get it. She had been with a transman prior to me and it was really hard on her. She didn't want to go through the same experience.
We parted for reasons other than my being trans. It isn't easy for the women in these relationships. It really isn't. And unless the transman can be open and observe that she is also
going through it....and include her and reach out to her and not be so...self absorbed...she hasn't a chance in hell and neither does the relationship. I mean fortunately, for the two of us...
i was open to her and i shared a shit load. And she was patient and kind and understanding that...sometimes i needed space to read and learn and analyze myself.
But, i have seen some transmen get so self absorbed in their growth and change and the woman
just gets left out. It is sad. So, i feel for you. And, i feel for the other (significant others) that
have to struggle through that ...somewhat alone. I will leave this thread now. Cause i think this
is a special space for some of you. Feel free to send me a note.
Take care and good luck,
DMW

[Soon]

Also, Brutal Dyke...this is the Femme Zone...so, um, how about staying in the trans threads and letting me vent about my shit about my ex transitioning?

[femmsational]

BrutalDyke,

Have you read the thread? It's about femmes/women who have some difficulty with their partner's transition.


WTF with you telling me about threads where I can find women/female ID butches?



Wow, really?


Not sure why you are hostile. But it's not a good look. :confused:

I didn't understand your earlier post either. Would you be able to explain it again in another way. Are you saying that you are mourning the loss of the body of someone you had been with when they transitioned?? Or are you saying that you are not happy about the transition idea at all?? Or what are you saying.

I don't understand what you're wanting to say??? It could easily be read as not liking the thought transitioning. But i'll hold off on anything else cause I really don't know what we are trying to talk about.



j

[femmsational]

Also, Brutal Dyke...this is the Femme Zone...so, um, how about staying in the trans threads and letting me vent about my shit about ex transitioning?



Vent your shit but it would be nice if it didn't tranlate to taking your shit out on someone else.

Are we now only allowed to post in our little box here?

Holy cow....I need to step outta this cause I don't get it, and don't want it.


j

[BrutalDaddy]

Alrighty.

Soon, you said that wasn't what you were getting at. So I made a suggestion. If you want to get all bent out of shape over it, that's on you. Not me.

If I misread your statements in your original post then hey, that one is on me and I apologize for that. However, the attitude coming at me, from you, isn't on me. Good luck to you in your future.

Hope you have a great day/night.

Sorry For Derail Folks,
Brute.

[DMW]

Also, Brutal Dyke...this is the Femme Zone...so, um, how about staying in the trans threads and letting me vent about my shit about my ex transitioning?

Soon, my apologies. I didn't realize it is a femme zone. Sincerely, everyone
deserves a place where they feel comfortable to share.

My respects,
DMW

I don't think she was being hostile?

[Soon]

I can only speak for myself - but I think your space is here.

I just want to add, that my wife had a very hard time with my having top surgery 7 years ago. She loved and accepted me 100% the way I was. I had already transitioned when we met, and she only knew me as male, but she loved and appreciated my body the way it was, and was afraid she wouldn't be attracted to me after surgery. She also felt guilty she said, for not wanting me to change my body just because she liked it - when she knew it caused me so much pain. We went through a very emotional time. I am happy to report though, that she was 100% fine with it afterwards and loves my chest now. I know this isn't exactly the same as a woman falling in love with a Butch woman who decides later to transition - I can't imagine how hard that would be - I did ID as a Butch prior to transition, but was single when I transitioned. It would've been very difficult had I done it while with a partner, I'm sure.

If my space is here, why are you, as a man, in the femme zone, trying to tell me where my space is?

[*Anya*]

I feel I must say this:

The title of this thread is Loving a Transman isn't Easy, in the femme zone.

What I read in Soon's original post was that this subject was very difficult for her because she had been in love with a female-bodied butch. She loved her butch and her female-born body.

The unsaid was clearly that her butch transitioned and that it was very hard for her, so hard she really could not talk about it.

Soon was only referring to herself. Self-Made Man and DMV's posts were supportive and appeared to "hear" where Soon was coming from.

I saw a very good documentary on Netflix a couple of years ago, about transmen. One of the segments explored a lesbian couple and how it was for them when the butch came to terms with being trans and went on T and how it was for the partner who went through her feelings of loss and sadness. It gave me some real empathy for the femme's perspective and experience.

[Soon]

Well, now that is all coming out in the wash ... so to speak.

Yeah, when the love of my life transitioned it was hell on me. Hell.

I had made it VERY clear that I was not attracted to FTM's.

Just not my thing...he was not the man I fell in love with...regardless of how much love was there.

Kudos to all the femmes who can deal but I could not.

I feel no one discusses this, and I thought this thread would be a bit supportive in that regard.

[Soon]

The unsaid was clearly that her butch transitioned and that it was very hard for her, so hard she really could not talk about it.



I mean, beyond your other words, you really summed up my heart here.

I'm grateful that I can even CONTEMPLATE (*nods to siteowners) talking about it. That's how weird it is in my head and also how I don't want to offend.

[Soon]

Maybe he misunderstood cause this is a thread about loving transmen?


.

Coming back to this...actually, this IS NOT a thead about loving transmen (and they do exist--and thanks for telling me of other options!). Not at all. It's about the potential difficulties/challenges that one may have to face when loving someone who is trans.

[Soon]

There's tons of other threads about enjoying being with female/women ided butches from what I understand. Maybe try those out?

Just A Suggestion,
Brute.

I cannot let this go. Seriously? Are you telling me where to go? What threads I should be on? WTF. Maybe "try those out"? What does that mean?

This is not a single/dating/meetup thread--ffs. Unbelievable. I know what thread I am on.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Coming back to this...actually, this IS NOT a thead about loving transmen (and they do exist--and thanks for telling me of other options!). Not at all. It's about the potential difficulties/challenges that one may have to face when loving someone who is trans.



Soon, hi. I'd like to share part of my experience in hopes you don't feel isolated. I understand how you feel when it comes to the challenges and emotions that come when someone you love transitions and how it kind of leaves you in the dust.

The transitioning period was difficult, filled with anger, disappointment, it felt like a deep loss and I never got the person back that they once were once the first T shot went in.

I'd be willing to have this difficult conversation with you, but also I'd like to say that it would be difficult because it's going to be ugly, sad, angry and in emptying out our emotional tanks that like earlier there will be interruptions because it seems when Femme's speak or want to speak about these issues it happens.


Maybe you can start a thread in the Femme Zone about this particular issue and ask that it stick to Femme's posting only. Other than that it can be had here in hopes that this can be examined without someone coming in and inserting their me me me's.

It's a great topic a difficult topic and I hope you can work this out safely here:)

[girl_dee]

Soon, i've never been with anyone who transitioned but i do completely understand your feelings. i don't have any stories to share but i do know, that "i" would have to leave the relationship.

i hope you come and share more, and others as well, because i am very interested in what you have to say.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have considered posting in this thread for awhile.

I just want to speak up for the femmes who loved their butches the way they were born.

I can't go further, emotionally, it is too hard.



Is there a space for women like me?


Soon, I used your last sentence and started a thread so you can have that space to vent if you want safely:)

LINKYLOO (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=696089#post696089)

[SelfMadeMan]

Wow. Well, I was only trying to offer support and FYI, I was agreeing that it's very hard on not only our partners, but partners of Butches, and that they have the right to have their feelings and struggles acknowledged. Not sure why I deserved such an acrid response - but best of luck to you. I didn't realize FTM voices weren't welcome here, I see a lot of cross talk in the Trans threads, so I assumed (my mistake) that as long as the posts were supportive, that it was cool. I'll stick to the trans threads. Sorry for the intrusion.

[Vivacious1]

I was reading some of this thread and saw it got a bit dis-railed, but, I would like to contribute my experience. I did have a relationship with a trans-man. When I involved myself, I was a bit naive. I did not understand the numerous issues that were involved. I can say for myself that being in a relationship with him was very difficult. The things that I encountered ranged from dealing with the wide range of emotions (male and female) the feeling of being invisible evern more and the lack of acceptance of my idenity as a lesbian. I did try to make it work but at the end of the day, it was not something I could do. I felt that I could not be me.

[Sheridan]

I can understand her going through emotional and sexual conflicts because her partner was changing their body to who they really were but the whole "tranny people" statement was gross.

[Miss Scarlett]

I remember how I felt when my Beau told me that he is a Transman. It was about halfway into our first date and I was surprised but not unpleasantly. We were having such a wonderful time talking, laughing and getting to know each other that it just didn't matter at the time and it still doesn't matter.

I have many friends who happen to be Transgender but I've never dated a Transman before. He has many friends who happen to be lesbian but had never dated a lesbian, much less a Femme.

We've discussed, and I've been asked by friends, what that "makes" us as far as labels...straight, bi, etc. The answer to that question is that it makes him just him, me just me and us just us.

In other words, to us it just doesn't matter...period.

Let me add this...without divulging whether or not he has, is or is considering surgery, etc. (That's his private business. He is not a member of this site and I do not have his consent to share something so personal.) If he had, was or was considering transition, without hesitation I would support him 100%.

[flapdoodle]

I rarely write, almost never reply. I loved the simplicity in which you describe your relationship. That really is the bottom line. Enjoy it.

[*Anya*]

I remember how I felt when my Beau told me that he is a Transman. It was about halfway into our first date and I was surprised but not unpleasantly. We were having such a wonderful time talking, laughing and getting to know each other that it just didn't matter at the time and it still doesn't matter.

I have many friends who happen to be Transgender but I've never dated a Transman before. He has many friends who happen to be lesbian but had never dated a lesbian, much less a Femme.

We've discussed, and I've been asked by friends, what that "makes" us as far as labels...straight, bi, etc. The answer to that question is that it makes him just him, me just me and us just us.

In other words, to us it just doesn't matter...period.

Let me add this...without divulging whether or not he has, is or is considering surgery, etc. (That's his private business. He is not a member of this site and I do not have his consent to share something so personal.) If he had, was or was considering transition, without hesitation I would support him 100%.



I am truly happy for you that you found your beau.

This thread was quite a while ago but I think the difference is that the OP fell in love with a female-bodied/ identified butch and during their relationship, her lover came out as Trans.

The posts read as this was a surprise, shock and a sense of loss for her.

Your beau had knew this information about his transition and shared it with you during your first date. It was a wonderful thing that he already knew this when he began to date you and that he immediately shared it with you half-way through that first date.

I don't know what I personally would do if a year into my relationship my female-identified butch came out as trans and was going to go on T.

Even though I love her dearly, it would be very, very difficult for me.

Again, I am so happy for you. It is lovely to read of the joy you are feeling in your posts!

Best wishes, always. ❤️

[Miss Scarlett]

I am truly happy for you that you found your beau.

This thread was quite a while ago but I think the difference is that the OP fell in love with a female-bodied/ identified butch and during their relationship, her lover came out as Trans.

The posts read as this was a surprise, shock and a sense of loss for her.

Your beau had knew this information about his transition and shared it with you during your first date. It was a wonderful thing that he already knew this when he began to date you and that he immediately shared it with you half-way through that first date.

I don't know what I personally would do if a year into my relationship my female-identified butch came out as trans and was going to go on T.

Even though I love her dearly, it would be very, very difficult for me.

Again, I am so happy for you. It is lovely to read of the joy you are feeling in your posts!

Best wishes, always. ❤️

Thank you ~Anya. He is a wonderful person and I am richly blessed.

He's known who he was from a very early age and has embraced it for the majority of his life. His family is very accepting as are his friends and coworkers.

But if that were not the case and he came to me after we were together for a while, told me he was Transgender and wanted to (or not) transition it wouldn't matter to me then either. He would still be the same wonderful person only happier with himself and him being happy is as important to me as my happiness is to him.

[DapperButch]

Miss Scarlett,

Just for clarity, this is a "Transman" (your word) identified person who is not yet on T?

Meaning, you didn't think that you were out on a date with a biological male and he came out to you as FTM, correct?

--------------------

I agree Anya, I think it is very different to meet a person who tells you they are going to/might go on testosterone, than to have your currently female identified partner tell you they plan to go on testosterone.

Perhaps it would be less of a big deal for the partner who dates (or who have found themselves attracted to), both butches (female/male identified) and FTMs, but I can imagine it would be quite traumatic for a person who only dates butches. Especially if their partner had also identified as a woman. Huge loss. Huge carpet pulled out from under you.

[Leigh]

I've been lucky enough to fall in love with a pretty amazing guy myself and I'm happy for the first time in a long time :)