Identifying Abuse

[Sparx1_1]

I suppose the title says it all.

Seriously how do you tell a kinky person that you suspect they are being abused.

You can't say, "They hit you." After all, the obvious answer to that is, "Of course they hit me, duh."

Almost all of the stereotypical vanilla markers of abuse are things kinky people do. Hitting, manipulation, mind games, humiliation, grabbing, pinching, biting. For every single abusive act, there are thousands of kinky couples who do it intentionally as part of their kink. How do you even begin to sort that shit out?

When you do recognize that someone is abusive, how do you tell the victim? How do you make them take it seriously?

[atomiczombie]

I suppose the title says it all.

Seriously how do you tell a kinky person that you suspect they are being abused.

You can't say, "They hit you." After all, the obvious answer to that is, "Of course they hit me, duh."

Almost all of the stereotypical vanilla markers of abuse are things kinky people do. Hitting, manipulation, mind games, humiliation, grabbing, pinching, biting. For every single abusive act, there are thousands of kinky couples who do it intentionally as part of their kink. How do you even begin to sort that shit out?

When you do recognize that someone is abusive, how do you tell the victim? How do you make them take it seriously?

How you tell when someone is being abused? You can tell when what they are doing:

A) crosses pre-agreed upon boundaries

B) causes injuries that aren't easily healed

C) the sub is manipulated into allowing boundaries to be crossed that they aren't comfortable with

These can include physical injuries that cause significant/possibly permanent damage. Emotional abuse is characterized as sort of brain-washing that systematically wears away someone's self-confidence, sense of self-worth, trust in their own perceptions, and isolates them from their friends/family.

There is a huge difference between BDSM and abuse. BDSM is empowering for Doms and subs. In reality, subs have as much power in the situation as the Doms, just in a different way. Abuse is one person's power-over another at the expense of that person's safety and self-esteem.

Hope this helps.

[The_Lady_Snow]

If you think you may be in an abusive BDSM relationship there is help:

Locate a kink friendly therapist or call 1-800-700-SAFE


1-800-787-3224 TTY

E-mail-- dvchair@nla-i.com

[The_Lady_Snow]

1. 'Jeckel and Hyde behavior': Your partner is wonderful and caring for a while and then will do an about face and be angry about things that they thought were fine at an earlier time. They switch back and forth between behaviors for no apparent reason.

2. "Life Would be so Good If': You frequently think that your relationship would be perfect if not for his or her emotional storms. The storms seem to be coming more and more frequently. Between times, life is wonderful, but when a storm is coming you can often tell by that 'Walking on Eggs Feeling'.

[The_Lady_Snow]

3. 'That Walking On Eggs Feeling': You feel at times that any action on your part will cause your partner to erupt into anger. You try to do everything you can think of to avoid it, but the longer the feeling goes on, the more likely the blowup will happen, no matter what you do.

4. 'I Can't Stand You, But You Better Not Leave': Your partner keeps telling you that you aren't worth having a relationship with, but will not consider breaking off the relationship. Acts more outrageously when he or she finds out you are attempting to leave the relationship.

[The_Lady_Snow]

SM:
An SM scene is a controlled situation.
Abuse:
Abuse is an out-of-control situation.
SM:
Negotiation occurs before an SM scene to determine what will and will not happen in that scene.
Abuse:
One person determines what will happen.
SM:
Knowledgable consent is given to the scene by all parties.
Abuse:
No consent is asked for or given.
SM:
The "bottom" has a safeword that allows them to stop the scene at any time they need to for physical or emotional reasons.
Abuse:
The person being abused cannot stop what is happenning.
SM:
Everyone involved in the SM scene is concerned about needs, desires, and limits of others.
Abuse:
No concern is given to the needs, desires, and limits of the abused person.
SM:
The people in the SM scene are careful to be sure that they are not impaired by alcohol or drug use during the scene.
Abuse:
Alcohol or drugs are often used before an episode of abuse.
SM:
After an SM scene, the people involved feel good.
Abuse:
After an episode of abuse, the people involved feel bad.

[oblivia]

Those are all really great examples... and resources.


But this thread still begs the question...

How do you identify it when it's blurrier than that?

Is it really as simple as - if it's consented to, it's not abuse?

What if someone seems happy - but their behaviour indicates unhealthy levels of dependence and dis-empowerment? What seems dis-empowering from the outside may feel empowering to the people involved - so how can we determine that?

Is corporal punishment, if delivered when the Top or Dominant in charge is feeling charged emotionally (angry, upset, etc) abuse if the bottom or submissive consents to this type of correction?

I know that this is treading on dangerous ground - because everyone's kink... D/s... S/m... M/s... D/g... M/b, etc looks different - and what may seem abusive to one is blissful to another.

But I've found myself in the position (more than once) in my past where I wasn't sure if I was in an abusive relationship - because it was a D/s or S/m or other power-exchange one and harder to define those boundaries....

And I've also found myself in the position (more than once) where, even though I like to think I completely get kink, and BDSM, and power exchange dynamics on a funadmental level - that I have been concerned that someone ELSE's power exchange dynamic was super unhealthy or abusive.

Have any of the rest of you been in these situations (either yourself, or out of concern for a friend or loved one)?

[DamonK]

I've been in a situation similar where I've known someone isn't all they seem, and have seen things on the outside that make me pause.

Sometimes, all you can do is wait.

The person involved may not see it as abuse, but sometimes it takes the person on the outside to recognize something isn't right.

I hate being the outside person.

[Random]

I used to say...

*There is a thin line between controlling and abusive. She's controlling, not abusive*

I held that stance no matter what anyone said. No one could convence me other wise

I was hers and she was the boss.. Period.

It wasn't until something happened that was so strange, so out there that I asked for advice from women I respected and trusted to be straight with me..

The overwelming answer was *GET THE FUCK OUT NOW* This is not healthy, this is abusive, get out now....

I heard them this time... Because I was ready to hear them... Because I asked...

Up until that point, nothing anyone said mattered... They didn't know her, they didn't know us....

*shrug*

Voice your concerns, but don't expect to save anyone... Just be on standby for when/if she asks the question...

[tapu]

I'm going to post because I have experience to bring to bear on this matter. There is nothing in this that I want to argue about or defend myself against. It's just my experience. There is no point-counterpoint in the subjective.

My first longterm SM relationship started ~1984-85. I don't remember hearing the distinction between SM/BD made in those years. SM for us consisted of dramatic language and roleplay, bondage, and whipping--the latter starting with hand spanking, and leading to leather straps.

I'm going to cut to the chase, though the process I'm describing took a considerable amount of time to go through:

When we started with spanking, I had a gauge of how far I was going--if my hand hurt worse and worse, and turned red and then purplish, I knew when this was a lot. But my lover always wanted more. I always ended it; she wouldn't.

When we switched to a strap, I didn't have the physical gauge anymore. It would be much harder to tell when I was going too far. And she seemed never to think it was too much, so I gauged it as I could and I stopped it when she wouldn't.

A few times when I could tell this was too much for the body (I won't go into how), I realized that she might never want to stop. We talked about it, and she went to a therapist to check it out. After a long while, she got at why she wanted to go to such an extreme, and it really wasn't a good thing for her. Really, really wasn't.

Though it was her deal, and I was new at this, I have never really shaken the guilt of not realizing her pain sooner.

Conclusion: I think that often the sub (yes, often) has underlying psychological issues, as we all do, and can consent to things that are not good for themselves, psychologically or physically. So no, I don't think we can be sure about trusting a person always to know what's best for them. (As with so many things.) But we can't say, "Hey, you're fooling yourself," either. We can't know everything. So here's what I would do:

1. Gauge the facts and decide how convinced you are that the details of their interaction constitute possible abuse. If yes,

2. Gauge your feelings and decide how intuitively you feel that the sub is being harmed. If yes,

3. Don't go into details, but suggest that it might be a good idea to see a therapist "just to check things out and maintain a happy relationship." Point out that if all is well, no harm seeing a therapist. If something is not well, it can be worked through. Don't take the position of being her therapist.


I probably have more to say because I always do. But gotta run. Good luck with this. It's a lot of responsibility to help someone out this way. I have not addressed the additional matter of speaking to someone when she has a dom. Wow. That intuition thing comes in here, and you will have to be brave to intercede. Best-- tapu

[The_Lady_Snow]

How do you know if someone's slap to the face is a good time or abuse?

You don't with kink relationships and that's where things get rough because someone may think that Master Hank is abusive cause he pisses in Dandy's mouth in public settings or Mistress Candy makes her boy dress up in Raggedy Ann wear even though he's transgender.

I could go on and on yet until Dandy or Sam say I'm being abused we have to remain vigilant and safe to come to without judgment.

Now if Madame Handy has 7 kids and boy sal is sleeping in a broom closet, taking cate of kids, house, bills while she sits watching Dr Oz and kicks him in the ribs for not making Velvetta Mac & cheese instead of Save a lot kind one may start poking around to investigate further.

[The_Lady_Snow]

What Makes A Healthy Relationship

Whether you are hard-core leather, occasional kinkster or straight vanilla, here are some simple rules of thumb to keep any relationship happy and healthy.
Synergy, in general, may be defined as two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable. Healthy relationships embrace synergy.
Before you can love anyone else you need to love yourself. Respect and accept yourself for who and what you are.  Happy relationships don’t happen when two halves come together to make a whole. It is two whole people working together that make a successful relationship.  So be as whole and together as you can be, love yourself and be good to you.  Too often in relationships one person becomes unhappy because they blame their partner for not having the power to make them happy. Happiness does not come from external sources, from places, people or things. Happiness is an inside job. Only YOU can make YOU happy.

Differences between two people is a natural occurrence. How those differences are respected and negotiated will directly impact how successful your relationship will be. No two people ever agreed on everything 100% of the time.  Learn to negotiate and compromise and commit to the plan. Keep your word and keep your agreements. If adjustments need to be made to the plan, be open and honest. Keeping your word demonstrates respect for yourself and your partner in addition to building trust and safety. If you agree to monogamy then stick with it, be sure to disclose and discuss any feelings you may have about someone else before acting upon those feelings. Trust is hard earned and too easily lost. Remember your word is your bond.

Communicate! Communicate! Communicate! Healthy communication is essential to sustain a healthy relationship. It is vital that there be a safe haven to share and nurture mutual collaborative agreements and compromise. There should be a way to safely communicate not only positive but negative feelings.  Doing so, will promote an atmosphere of collaboration and mutual trust. You won’t always agree but there needs to be a common ground to air and discuss disagreements. You can choose to be “right’ or you can have a happy relationship, you can’t always have both.  Character assassination, verbal abuse and manipulation are NOT healthy ways of communicating.  Play Nice!
Learning and growing together as a couple can be a rewarding experience. We each come to the table with our own set of challenges as well as our own set of assets. Learning about each other and working through challenges together can be incredibly bonding experience.

To paraphrase Shakespeare “To thine own self be true”. This can be especially applicable when sharing your feelings with  your partner. Tell your partner the truth about how you feel. Too often we have been taught to prevaricate to spare feelings.  You can argue with facts, but you can’t argue with emotions. Be honest and open with your feelings; lies create a gulf that can destroy trust. Truth is the foundation of trust and trust is the foundation of a healthy relationship.

Do things for your partner because you enjoy doing things that make them happy. Doing things with the idea of future reciprocation is opening your relationship up to emotional blackmail and resentment. Creating an atmosphere of generous giving within your relationship can promote feelings of love and trust.
We all make mistakes and it is inevitable that at some point in time your partner is going to make one. Occasional resentment towards one partner is normal. How that resentment is handled can make or break a relationship.  Learning to forgive and let go of resentment can be a determining factor to the health of your relationship. Holding grudges, bringing up past mistakes can destroy the best of relationships. “To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover it was you. “
It is essential to any healthy relationship that you accept the person’s personality and the way they process the world.  It is extremely unrealistic to expect anyone to change their processing style or personality to meet your expectations or needs.  Healthy relationships understand and accept their partners for who and what they are.  That being said, it is vital to be very open and honest with what you expect from your partner in regards to behavior and attitude. There should be a very clear understanding about what is expected from each other. This is especially true when it comes to finances.
Responsible”= your ability to respond, not that you’re accepting blame. By responding you are acknowledging your needs and the real problem — taking ownership. For instance, if you have been behaving badly towards your partner, own it and change it. That is something you can not only control, but you can change! You are responsible for your actions, no one else’s. There is power in that.

Love does mean having to say your sorry. We all make mistakes and that is no less true for our behavior within our intimate relationship. Owning up to our mistakes lets our partners know we can be trusted to be fair and honest. You can be right 100% of the time or you can have a healthy relationship. You can’t have both.

Relationships are like bank accounts:  if you don’t make regular deposits eventually you will overdraft your account.  We all know how horrible and costly those overdraft fees can be!   Spending quality time with your partner can be one of the greatest investments you can make towards your relationship.

[oblivia]

thanks for sharing your experience, Tapu..... I think that's really good advice. I also think that sometime there are things going on with the bottomish type person that prevent them from taking adquate care of themselves or drawing clear boundaries.

Speaking for myself - I had a lot of baggage when I found kink. I was not in a place to know how to draw clear boundaries or establish limits. I was the ultimate yes-girl and would do anything or almost anything to please a Top. I was lucky that I only had a few really bad experiences given this. I was also very young and didn't recognize the impact this could have on the Toppish people I encountered who trusted that I could establish my boundaries appropriately. I wasn't aware I had this problem - but in hindsight if I had, it would have been irresponsible to negotiate even a single scene. I thought I knew myself so well, then. Hindsight is 20/20 and all...

I think that - to be fair - most submissive or bottomish type people who have these issues are rarely aware they have them. A huge part of my journey over the last ten years has been facing, addressing, and dealing with these issues. By the time my relationship with Sparx began, I was already in a place to be able to draw some clear lines. With Sparx's very gentle care and handling, encouragement and ability to push me in the direction I needed to go - I've come so much further.

But.... if I had another Toppish type person in my life.... either one who had no interest or desire in working with me on this stuff because it's not the healthy choice for them or one who wasn't intuitive enough to understand me on those deeper levels - it would have been easier for an abusive situation to blossom without either of us realizing that was going on.... at which point it might be not abuse but more a bad set of circumstances - or the wrong combination of people or some other name for it.

I don't know.... this stuff is hard.

I agree with Random though - when you're in it, if other people tell you it's bad before you'r eready to hear it, it doesn't seem to do any good - ever. The person has to realize (on some level) that it's unhealthy before anything you say can really be helpful.

[ReDo]

Telling a kinky person they are being abused is hard. As you said you will get the answer "of course hy/he/shy/she does"

I was in a relationship married it was a BDSM relationship and yes there was hitting, that I enjoyed in the beginning, there was a wide spectrum of everything honestly and in the beginning it was okay.

Somewhere however and I am not sure where it happened or how but it did turn into abuse instead of pure kink. It took me years to realize that what was actually going on was not okay anymore and it was abusive. I would ask my other "kinky" friends if this or that was normal behavior and I would get the answer of course it is he is the Dom you are sub. So I believed that with him being Dom I never had a voice. I had no right and whatever he said went and that was the way it was. Here I sit 6 years later I left that relationship in August so its really only been 2 months and the walls are just now coming down. I am with an amazing partner now who is Dom and though that scared me as I was afraid that I would be back in the same place I was with evil ex I learned that being Dom doesn't mean that I have to be a door mat. I have a voice I can say no and it is okay. I learned that when I am sick its okay to not jump out of bed and feed the animals or make breakfast and do everything. When my body hurts its okay to hurt. And when I need to cry its okay to cry and let it all out.

These last couple of weeks I have done a lot of crying letting the flood gates open and the past 6 years of physical, emotional, mental abuse out. My partner Panama is amazing about it. Hy never tells me to stop crying in fact hy encourages me to let it out. I am afraid to let the tears out however. Afraid I will look weak or pathetic or that hy will get angry with me for falling to pieces over something that has nothing to do with hym. However Panama is nothing like that at all. Hy wakes up at night when he hears me crying rolls over and asks if hy can hold me. (Sometimes I can't be touched) Hy rubs my back and lets me know its okay and that it will all be okay. When hy sees me hurting hy makes sure to stop me and ask what is going on. Being Dom isn't a ticket to be an ass. I am learning that now.

As far as your friend ask her what happens if she says no. Does she feel as though she has the right to say no?

Can she make decissions that need to be made that are the best for her.

Ask her what she thinks abuse is. Let her tell you and if you feel that is what is going on when she says what she feels it is then ask her doesn't so and so act that way?

For me I saw it but didn't want to see it. It took being thrown down 3 flights of stairs for me to wake up that this man was going to kill me if I didn't get out. I never want another person to go through that. I never want another person to live in fear never knowing if their partner is going to yell, scream, hit, fight, or drive them so insane they hurt themselfs.

So if you beleive abuse is going on ask the questions and keep asking. If she gets angry with you then just tell her that you love her. If she needs someoen to talk to then give her my contact information and if she wants my email address let me know and I will give it to her without a problem.

Anyway... going to end this here I am exhausted today I didn't sleep well at all last night so heading home to curl into bed with someone I know loves me just the way I am.

ReDo

[tapu]

Wow. Oblivia, What you're saying there captures what I hope my ex is thinking and feeling today. She didn't know what she was doing, I didn't know what I was doing, the damage was mutual, and we both had to work that out.

Thanks for the time you've taken to express that so well. I'm glad this crucial aspect of your life and psychology took such a consistent up-turn. Good work!

[atomiczombie]

Is corporal punishment, if delivered when the Top or Dominant in charge is feeling charged emotionally (angry, upset, etc) abuse if the bottom or submissive consents to this type of correction?

YES. If a Dom is taking out their anger on a sub, that is abuse no matter if the sub agrees to it or not.

Just because someone consents to something doesn't mean it's not abuse. A sub can consent to having their bones broken or being tied up to the point of passing out, or getting blood supply cut off of a limb to the point of getting permanent nerve damage, but that is still abuse that is way over the line of safety.

And then there is emotional abuse. I was in an abusive marriage for several years. We were a vanilla couple, but I consented implicitly to her verbal abuse because I let her berate me even though it hurt me terribly. And a sub can explicitly consent to humiliation and berating but if that causes psychological and emotional damage, then it is abuse. If it is done in anger, it is abuse.

D/s isn't about anger. A good Dom cares for the sub and cares about how the sub feels. Anger has no place in D/s IMHO. D/s is about pleasure. Anger is displeasure.

[Random]

YES. If a Dom is taking out their anger on a sub, that is abuse no matter if the sub agrees to it or not.



I have to disagree with this statement.

If it is negotiated that part of the subs *job* is to help defuse the Dom/Dommes more explosive emotions then that's what it is... Part of the job..

I don't know if you are talking about taking anger at the sub OUT on the sub... That would feel not right to me.. In the same way that you never correct a child when you are angry with them.

For me... being angry, frustrated, pissy, cranky doesn't mean I'm out of control... It means that I'm human and angry, pissy, cranky, ect...

A big part of Mitmo's *job* is to help me NOT be those things that I just listed. It doesn't matter if it's taking time to be out in the yard laying on the blanket talking, or me working her over for a couple hours. This is part of her service to me...

To me BDSM is NOT all about pleasure... It doesn't always end with a lovely afterglow. Sometimes the only satisfaction my girl gets out of an event is the knowledge that she pleased me or made my life a little easier.

[oblivia]

YES. If a Dom is taking out their anger on a sub, that is abuse no matter if the sub agrees to it or not.

Just because someone consents to something doesn't mean it's not abuse. A sub can consent to having their bones broken or being tied up to the point of passing out, or getting blood supply cut off of a limb to the point of getting permanent nerve damage, but that is still abuse that is way over the line of safety.

And then there is emotional abuse. I was in an abusive marriage for several years. We were a vanilla couple, but I consented implicitly to her verbal abuse because I let her berate me even though it hurt me terribly. And a sub can explicitly consent to humiliation and berating but if that causes psychological and emotional damage, then it is abuse. If it is done in anger, it is abuse.

D/s isn't about anger. A good Dom cares for the sub and cares about how the sub feels. Anger has no place in D/s IMHO. D/s is about pleasure. Anger is displeasure.

Thank you for this feedback. I think having this dialogue within the greater kink/leather/BDSM community is really important.

I think that this is where it gets hard to pin down. I agree with you 100%. In my opinion - if someone is taking out anger at a sub ON a sub - that is crossing the line whether the sub agrees or not.

But, again, this comes back to the question: At what point is consent NOT enough and the behaviour (consent or no) is enough to cry foul?

Your examples are good ones - yet I still wonder if they could be applied unilaterally.

I'm a pretty black & white thinker - I suppose I'm looking for the impossible: a set of rules that can be applied in any situation to KNOW it's abuse. I know that's unrealistic - but dammit if it wouldn't make it all so much easier to navigate.

Some BDSM folk's kink allows for some stuff that others might see as abusive - but... if they've consented and claim that this is acceptable behaviour within the context of their relationship - and in those situations being on the outside looking in, we are left helpless if we try to say "hey, that sounds abusive!"

This is hard stuff no matter how you slice it and I really think it's great to get so many different viewpoints on the matter. Thanks everyone who is chiming in - I think this is good.

[oblivia]

I have to disagree with this statement.

If it is negotiated that part of the subs *job* is to help defuse the Dom/Dommes more explosive emotions then that's what it is... Part of the job..

I don't know if you are talking about taking anger at the sub OUT on the sub... That would feel not right to me.. In the same way that you never correct a child when you are angry with them.

Good feedback, Random - thanks.

And an excellent point - some relationships may negotiate exactly this sort of arrangement. My hypothetical example was referring to anger at the sub taken out on the sub... for example it has always been a given in the relationships I've been in that if the Toppish person is angry than any punishment being given me waits until the Toppish person has cooled off, dealt with their emotions and is in a safe headspace. So, my question was - if this isn't done - is that abuse? Even if that relationship has negotiated that this IS okay?

Grey area. I no likey.

So yeah, this is what I mean when I say there probably just aren't blanket 'rules' we can apply across all relationships.

[atomiczombie]

I have to disagree with this statement.

If it is negotiated that part of the subs *job* is to help defuse the Dom/Dommes more explosive emotions then that's what it is... Part of the job..

I don't know if you are talking about taking anger at the sub OUT on the sub... That would feel not right to me.. In the same way that you never correct a child when you are angry with them.

For me... being angry, frustrated, pissy, cranky doesn't mean I'm out of control... It means that I'm human and angry, pissy, cranky, ect...

A big part of Mitmo's *job* is to help me NOT be those things that I just listed. It doesn't matter if it's taking time to be out in the yard laying on the blanket talking, or me working her over for a couple hours. This is part of her service to me...

To me BDSM is NOT all about pleasure... It doesn't always end with a lovely afterglow. Sometimes the only satisfaction my girl gets out of an event is the knowledge that she pleased me or made my life a little easier.

It is my job to defuse and regulate my emotions. I would never make that anyone else's responsibility, that would be patently unfair IMHO. Anyone who submits to me is not going to be my figurative or literal punching bag upon which I can take out my anger and frustration. I don't consider that type of behavior healthy or safe in any situation, be it D/s or not. That is not what D/s is about IMHO.

[Sachita]

I have to disagree with this statement.

If it is negotiated that part of the subs *job* is to help defuse the Dom/Dommes more explosive emotions then that's what it is... Part of the job..

I don't know if you are talking about taking anger at the sub OUT on the sub... That would feel not right to me.. In the same way that you never correct a child when you are angry with them.

For me... being angry, frustrated, pissy, cranky doesn't mean I'm out of control... It means that I'm human and angry, pissy, cranky, ect...

A big part of Mitmo's *job* is to help me NOT be those things that I just listed. It doesn't matter if it's taking time to be out in the yard laying on the blanket talking, or me working her over for a couple hours. This is part of her service to me...

To me BDSM is NOT all about pleasure... It doesn't always end with a lovely afterglow. Sometimes the only satisfaction my girl gets out of an event is the knowledge that she pleased me or made my life a little easier.

Thank you.

There is such a fine line here. Let's not also forget passive aggressive manipulations and head games. Years ago I had a female sub who was by far the most manipulative person I ever encounter. She twisted and turned things around. She told a very private circle of friends that I abused her. She did some pretty fucked up things and once i did hit her in the face. She violated my space and because uncontrollable. I ordered her to leave and never saw her again. That was it for me. That was not part of a scene.

I can get cranky, pissy, frustrated and can be extremely aloof. I expect someone coming into a relationship with me to understand this and never ever provoke me. If I react violently, lose control, then they must leave my space. I am strong and at times very demanding. I don't raise my voice and I keep anger at bay. I am calculating and my motives must be constructive. For me it's reward and punishment. If you deserve to be punished you will but I won't make it part of a scene. I'm also not going to give you a spanking when spanking if your thing. I might reward you with one. :) When you are engaging in a D/s dynamic ongoing its hard to not move into intense spaces and for there not to be conflict. You work through it and when the relationship stops being constructive and its evolving positively you exit no matter what.

I've met subs who would wanted a lot. Hardcore masochist that needed physical and emotional intensity. If they are able to properly seduce the beast in me we'll have it. There has to be some type of balance tho proper descend. I would never just jump into play with a stranger and there needs to be a lot of communication not only to discuss boundaries but so you can get a good sense of where their head is at. You might be opening a cans of worms. lol I;m a real mind player, totally into dominance, submission and control. At times its misunderstood. Its important to be clear about your intentions.

[Sachita]

It is my job to defuse and regulate my emotions. I would never make that anyone else's responsibility, that would be patently unfair IMHO. Anyone who submits to me is not going to be my figurative or literal punching bag upon which I can take out my anger and frustration. I don't consider that type of behavior healthy or safe in any situation, be it D/s or not. That is not what D/s is about IMHO.

I don't think random meant "punching bag" but that when you have dominant, controlling and projective energy sometimes it wells up. Its hard to explain with words. When you are moving through sub-space, desire builds, you feel it in the back of your throat and you become receptive. It can reach points where its almost painful/needy. IMO, at least in my world, I become pensive and demanding. I may lash out but I never harbor. I have a short fuse and then its done, over and finished. I would never lift my hand to anyone in anger especially not someone I love and I won't own you unless I love you.

I think we all know when respect is present. No matter who is on top or bottom you both need to clearly have respect for one another. Otherwise you have no business dabbling in sexual alternatives.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It is my job to defuse and regulate my emotions. I would never make that anyone else's responsibility, that would be patently unfair IMHO. Anyone who submits to me is not going to be my figurative or literal punching bag upon which I can take out my anger and frustration. I don't consider that type of behavior healthy or safe in any situation, be it D/s or not. That is not what D/s is about IMHO.

In your relationships it may not be as such for others it may be negotiated that is the boi/boy/girls job to be the voice of reason.. This is where I'm hesitant to share examples that come from my dynamics because someone's kink may be someone's "abuse" trigger.

I'm assuming Random meant her girl is her voice if reason.

There are some Doms who may walk in the door from a bad day look at it's property pointing to the back of the house and it's on.

Abuse?

Good times?

I'm hesitant to answer honestly since we all have different views on what is acceptable and what isn't..

[Cajun_dee]

I think there is a HUGE difference between *taking anger out* on someone and using them for tension relief (yes, please) in a controlled environment.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thinking More Clearly About BDSM vs Abuse

By: Clarisse Thorn


Years ago, when I first started thinking about BDSM and abuse, I — like a lot of feminist BDSMers — was defensive.

We get scared of the accusation that “BDSM is always abuse” … and we’re accustomed to accusations from certain feminists such as “those of you who pretend to like BDSM just have Patriarchy Stockholm Syndrome and don’t know what you really want” … and often, we’re also fighting our own inner BDSM stigma demons. We get angry that our sexual needs are seen as politically problematic, or unimportant.

And so, for a lot of people, our instinctive angle on abuse in the BDSM community is: “Shut up! That’s not what’s going on!” And that’s a problem.

Obviously, I don’t think BDSM is inherently abusive! Exploring my personal BDSM desires has given me some extraordinary, consensual, transcendent experiences and connections. I also genuinely believe that BDSM has the potential to control, subvert, and manage power. BDSM can be a place where people learn to understand bad power dynamics in past relationships; it can be a place where people learn to manage or destroy bad power dynamics in their current relationships; it can be a place where people find glory, self-knowledge and freedom by manipulating their own reactions and responses to power. Here’s a great, complicated relevant essay by Pepper Mint, and here’s one of my favorite quotations on the matter from violetwhite:

It’s ironic that the most perverse manipulations of power in my life occurred in a past vanilla relationship, where I tolerated tyranny because the normative structure of our relationship obscured the fact that that is what it was.

Still, I’ve seen things happen in my local BDSM community that turned my stomach. Terrible manipulative behavior exhibited by people who have the greatest reputations. Blaming the victim when they try to speak up. Telling “rumor mongers” to shut up when people are trying to talk openly about problematic community members. The BDSM subculture has its own version of rape culture, where “lying bitch” and “drama queen” and “miscommunication” are used against abuse survivors. Miscommunications do happen … but not everything that could be a miscommunication is actually a miscommunication.

Oh yes, rape culture can happen in BDSM just the same way it happens in the “vanilla” mainstream. And there are certainly people in my local community who I would never get involved with, because I do not trust them. (Here’s a great call to action by BDSM writer and abuse survivor Kitty Stryker. I also like Asher Bauer’s old post, “A Field Guide To Creepy Dom“, which is all about how to spot predators — although, like Asher, I think the post has a few problems.)

Being defensive about BDSM and abuse won’t help; yes, BDSM is stigmatized and stereotyped, but the abuse is still a problem. So after I started blogging, I tried to move past my defensiveness and write more concretely — to write about what exactly the BDSM community does to work against abuse. One of my first posts on BDSM and abuse was called “Evidence That The BDSM Community Does Not Enable Abuse“. It highlighted anti-abuse initiatives within the BDSM community. As I learned more about BDSM and abuse, and my perspective got more nuanced, I wrote a more expansive post called “The Alt Sex Anti-Abuse Dream Team“. It covered all the information I’d given in the earlier post, and also talked about how I personally would structure an anti-abuse initiative with alt-sex people in mind.

Looking back now, those posts still strike me as defensive. I was making good points, but I also think that I didn’t fully understand where some feminists are coming from when they react negatively to BDSM. This past year, I’ve learned a lot more about abusive gender-based violence, power, and control. And I’ve concluded that while BDSM is obviously not equivalent to abuse, we need better theory to describe the difference between BDSM and abuse, and we should try to avoid defensiveness while articulating that theory.

One thing I think people can do is try to “start from a position of strength, and seek strength afterwards“. The overall point of that maxim is that any given BDSM activity can eventually make all parties feel more supported, more capable, more powerful in the world. That’s my ideal end goal; that is what I personally would aim for with my BDSM practice. Perhaps I might do an intense BDSM scene that makes me feel terrible in the moment — or for a lot of moments … but I want to be sure it will make me more supported, more capable, more powerful later.

That’s an awfully vague maxim, though, and one that can be different for every person. I may have found a more concrete focus in a 1984 anti-abuse concept — the Power & Control Wheel:

In 1984, staff at the Domestic Abuse Intervention Project (DAIP) began developing curricula for groups for men who batter and victims of domestic violence. We wanted a way to describe battering for victims, offenders, practitioners in the criminal justice system and the general public. Over several months, we convened focus groups of women who had been battered. We listened to heart-wrenching stories of violence, terror and survival. After listening to these stories and asking questions, we documented the most common abusive behaviors or tactics that were used against these women. The tactics chosen for the wheel were those that were most universally experienced by battered women.

Here’s an image of the Power & Control Wheel. The text of that and other relevant wheels can be found here. In a BDSM context, a lot of those behaviors could be part of a consensual encounter — violence, headgames, name-calling, all kinds of things can be BDSM. But this part, this is important:

MINIMIZING, DENYING AND BLAMING:
* Making light of the abuse and not taking her concerns about it seriously.
* Saying the abuse didn’t happen.
* Shifting responsibility for abusive behavior.
* Saying she caused it.

(The original wheel uses gendered language, but I’d like to note that although abuse is most often perpetrated by men against women, abuse can happen in any kind of relationship and to people of any gender.)

In the brilliant documentary “Graphic Sexual Horror”, which profiles a now-defunct BDSM porn site, there’s footage of a scene with a porn model named S4. The dominant partner slaps S4 across the face, and S4 reacts angrily. She says something like, “We didn’t talk about that in advance!” The dominant doesn’t apologize; he doesn’t take her seriously, and he doesn’t talk to her carefully or work to calm her down. Instead, the dominant partner snaps: “We can’t talk about everything in advance,” and aggressively demands to know whether she’s ready to continue. This is an example of minimizing, denying, and blaming.

I have some sympathy for his awkward position — I’ve made small mistakes as a dominant partner, too, and he’s correct that it’s impossible to talk about everything in advance. But the way to deal with those mistakes is by apologizing sincerely and making sure the mistake never happens again. For example, one of my exes really hated being bitten on the lips, and at one point I bit him on the lower lip. And he called me out, and I said, “I’m sorry,” and I put my arms around him to offer comfort; I said, “I won’t do it again,” and I didn’t.

My experience of BDSM relationships is that it’s best for there to be both communication ahead of time — and lots of discussion and processing afterwards. Both partners get to set “hard limits”: things they absolutely don’t want to do. If one partner has concerns, those concerns get airtime. Both partners acknowledge a role in the proceedings, and blame isn’t spread around; even if something goes wrong, the discussion focuses on how to prevent that from happening again rather than making accusations.

And if BDSM is happening, it must be possible to acknowledge it, even if it’s subtle. For example, I ran into a partner on the street the other day; he gave me a hug and held me in place for a while, even though I tried to move away. This, my friends, is subtle BDSM. Which was fine with me! But it was only okay because I knew I could call him out on it later and be sure it was acknowledged!

And I did mention it later, and he did acknowledge it, and we both laughed and said it was hot. And if I had told him not to do it, that would have been okay too. And the fact that I knew I could talk about it, that I knew I could tell him not to do it and he’d listen … meant that I also could have declined to mention it, and I would have felt fine.

Something else worth acknowledging here is time boundaries. If a person is indeed calling names, controlling what the other person does, etc, then it’s often useful for it to be communicated — and also time-bounded. For example: “You can only call me pathetic during this sexual encounter. Otherwise, please don’t.”

There are BDSM couples that get rid of time boundaries, and have ongoing BDSM relationship situations; there are also BDSM couples that don’t use safewords. I think those relationships require a lot of understanding and care from all parties involved. I’ve never gone without safewords, but sometimes I go without time-bounding, and when I do, I make very sure that I can trust my partner and communicate well with him. (Thomas MacAulay Millar calls safeword-free BDSM “the advanced class”.)

The same group that made the Power & Control Wheel has another useful wheel — the Equality Wheel. Here’s the text of the wheel:

ECONOMIC PARTNERSHIP:
* Making money decisions together.
* Making sure both partners benefit from financial arrangements.

NEGOTIATION AND FAIRNESS:
* Seeking mutually satisfying resolutions to conflict.
* Accepting changes.
* Being willing to compromise.

NON-THREATENING BEHAVIOR:
* Talking and acting so that she feels safe and comfortable expressing herself and doing things.

RESPECT:
* Listening to her non-judgmentally.
* Being emotionally affirming and understanding.
* Valuing her opinions.

SHARED RESPONSIBILITY:
* Mutually agreeing on a fair distribution of work.
* Making family decisions together.

RESPONSIBLE PARENTING:
* Sharing parental responsibilities.
* Being a positive, nonviolent role model for the children.

HONESTY AND ACCOUNTABILITY:
* Accepting responsibility for self.
* Acknowledging past use of violence.
* Admitting being wrong.
* Communicating openly and truthfully.

TRUST AND SUPPORT:
* Supporting her goals in life.
* Respecting her right to her own feelings, friends, activities, and opinions.

All these things ought to be present in a BDSM relationship! Even the very rare people who do full-time Master/slave relationships can make sure that all those elements are included; for example, they can keep simultaneous journals about the relationship, and thereby keep up with each others’ feelings and consent without breaking out of their roles.

I also think that the list is especially useful in that it highlights places where non-consensual control is likely to happen … and therefore, places where BDSMers should be especially careful. For example, failing to support a partner’s life goals would be okay in the middle of an intense BDSM encounter. But afterwards, it might be good to give extra support, just because that can be such an important genuine danger spot.

Just like vanilla people, BDSMers have a lot of unspoken elements of our relationships. For example — the partner I mentioned earlier, who held me in place when I gave him a hug on the street. We didn’t negotiate that particular act ahead of time. But we have an established relationship, and we’ve done similar things before; I knew that if I wanted to talk about it — or ask him not to do it — then he’d listen. And, even more importantly, the rest of our relationship lines up with the Equality Wheel.

Shoutout to Kitty Stryker and Maggie Mayhem, two awesome feminist BDSM writers who will be running a workshop on BDSM and abuse in San Francisco on August 4! (Note: both those blogs are assuredly not safe for work.) More info on the workshop here; event hosted by the awesome Center for Sex & Culture.

Tagged as: BDSM

[Sachita]

This is from Snow's paste of an article above.

"Something else worth acknowledging here is time boundaries. If a person is indeed calling names, controlling what the other person does, etc, then it’s often useful for it to be communicated — and also time-bounded. For example: “You can only call me pathetic during this sexual encounter. Otherwise, please don’t.”

There are BDSM couples that get rid of time boundaries, and have ongoing BDSM relationship situations; there are also BDSM couples that don’t use safewords. I think those relationships require a lot of understanding and care from all parties involved. I’ve never gone without safewords, but sometimes I go without time-bounding, and when I do, I make very sure that I can trust my partner and communicate well with him. (Thomas MacAulay Millar calls safeword-free BDSM “the advanced class”.)"


There is a definite distinction between sessions/scening and an ongoing 24/7 dynamic when it comes to a few things. Time boundaries can be one of them, although some couples have a standard relationship and have predetermined times that they role-play or explore bdsm fantasies. Not so much in an ongoing dynamic, although I might have a beginning and end to a more intense scene or role-play. The day to day is an ongoing subtle D/s dynamic and then I may plan events, scenes, fun, sex and these will have time boundaries and a safe word. Day to day I most likely would not use a safe word unless we have very physical relationship. But in a scene I think its important. There are people I might have a relationship with that I might not use a safe word because we are BOTH experienced lifestyle players and understand how to communicate.

Something else I want to say about safe words- if you're in a hot scene its nice to let go and not worry if its too much or too little. You want your partner to ride the high with you and they may be really reeling or more sensitive that day. Then here are times when a bottom doesn't want to call a safe word because their desire to please is stronger then their common sense. I don't want someone to control me or to feel like I am servicing someone, yet at the same time I want us both enjoying the scene. This is another reason why I don't casually play. I need to feel connected and committed. I need time to understand and study them. I need deep chemistry.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I would also advice if you're looking for a set of skills on how and what to look for then attend some BDSM workshops on Healthy BDSM and what is abuse. Leather events happen throughout the country...

[Random]

It is my job to defuse and regulate my emotions. I would never make that anyone else's responsibility, that would be patently unfair IMHO. Anyone who submits to me is not going to be my figurative or literal punching bag upon which I can take out my anger and frustration. I don't consider that type of behavior healthy or safe in any situation, be it D/s or not. That is not what D/s is about IMHO.

I think we come from different worlds and our D/s has different flavors.

The concept of using another human being as my figurative or literal punching bag has never crossed my mind... For me to do so would be an abusive action. I try very hard not to do anything that is going to permantly alter someones psyche in a negitive way.

Let me try an example that might get my point across with less *hot spot* words.

You come home from work.. Worn out, cranky, anti social and frazzled. Your partner sees this and runs you a nice hot bath, with your favorite oils and candles. As you soak in the tub She/He makes a nice dinner, gets out your favorite lounge wear and pops in a DvD that He/She knows will make you laught..

This is service...

This is someone helping you transmute/shed negitive emotions.

Different example...

You come home from work, worn out, mad, cranky,frustrated from the world.
You walk in your door see her and tell her to strip and drop...
You circle around her telling her all the things that you are going to do and why... You tell her to get you a cup of coffee and get into the room and wait....
While she is waiting, you do some things around the house, play on the computer, watch a tv show, read a bit of your book...
But you are not really focused on any of those things... You are not thinking of anything but her in that room... Eventually you go in and do all the things you had told her you were going to do to her...

This is service... This is someone helping you transmute/shed negitive emotions. This is someone helping you be in a different headspace..

Because for me... I will not touch my girl unless I am 100 percent in control of all my emotions. The negitive emotions transmute into energy that I focus on her...

Damn.. I had more to say but I have to head out to work...

[Sparx1_1]

Because for me... I will not touch my girl unless I am 100 percent in control of all my emotions. The negitive emotions transmute into energy that I focus on her...


If I can't control myself then I have no right to be on control of someone else.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank you Random!!!

Sadism runs a tie with Master for some of us, sex eh I can have that whenever, hours of torturing my slaves for release be it daily or just cause you forgot to add the exact amount of ice to my drink ranks way higher in my hotness scale. My romance may look like abuse, your romance may look like I'd rather have needles digging under my fingernail bed. It's hard to "judge" in this dynamic then again if something doesn't leave you feeling good then it's when you tune into your instinct cause good intentions leave you secure as does transparency abuse has no good feeling vibes our instinct recognizes this we just need to listen to it..

[Cajun_dee]

Master comes home, full of tension, I'm feeling kinda not in the mood for play, but She says, "I had a hard day, get upstairs and get in your chair, get things ready" ...

I go of course, and let Her use me for release. Was I in the mood? Nah, not really, did it feel wonderful? YES!!!!! I was serving Her.

Had I voiced a really good reason for not wanting to play, She would have listened and made a decision I assume, but submitting when you are being used for the sole purpose of pleasing and service, now THAT"s a turn on!

Now would I allow this from anyone else? Nope. I trust Her and I know She would never lay a hand on me unless She was in complete control.

Just a thought.

[Sachita]

Master comes home, full of tension, I'm feeling kinda not in the mood for play, but She says, "I had a hard day, get upstairs and get in your chair, get things ready" ...

I go of course, and let Her use me for release. Was I in the mood? Nah, not really, did it feel wonderful? YES!!!!! I was serving Her.

Had I voiced a really good reason for not wanting to play, She would have listened and made a decision I assume, but submitting when you are being used for the sole purpose of pleasing and service, now THAT"s a turn on!

Now would I allow this from anyone else? Nope. I trust Her and I know She would never lay a hand on me unless She was in complete control.

Just a thought.

Not much different then a vanilla relationship really. There are times when you're both are not on the same page, however when you care about someone you want to make them happy and give them what they need. I'm willing to bet Dee that if you were feeling extra submissive, more needy, etc. that even if she wasn't in the mood she would address your needs. I'm not saying that she would feel pressured to "service" you but her deep love and commitment would want to make sure you were ok. Let's face it, our desire for D/s, etc. is much deeper then sexual libido, right? It is for me. At the same time I realize that all can be a compromise.

If someone approaches me it begins as friends. There may be an exchange of some sort that feeds our nature. After all when you're kinky and single it sucks so it's nice to have even a bit of exchange and flirty banter. But the moment a commitment is made is a whole other story. I then require them to please me at any capacity I see fit. They have evaluated the situation fully, know that I am sane and have their best interest at heart BUT they commit knowing the road won't be easy and that it could very well be a challenge. IMO this is what bonds and builds a relationship with me. Their ability to stand up, no matter what and make my world a better place. just because you;re submissive doesn't mean you crumble or run away. I am more turned on by strength of character and a submissive's ability to please me.

This doesn't make it ok for me to abuse them in any way that is not constructive to our relationship. My pleasure and happiness is essential to the overall tempo of our union. Giving me comfort, relieving stress, sexual pleasure, yadda yadda is why I chose you.

[Heart]

SM:
An SM scene is a controlled situation.
Abuse:
Abuse is an out-of-control situation.
SM:
Negotiation occurs before an SM scene to determine what will and will not happen in that scene.
Abuse:
One person determines what will happen.
SM:
Knowledgable consent is given to the scene by all parties.
Abuse:
No consent is asked for or given.
SM:
The "bottom" has a safeword that allows them to stop the scene at any time they need to for physical or emotional reasons.
Abuse:
The person being abused cannot stop what is happenning.
SM:
Everyone involved in the SM scene is concerned about needs, desires, and limits of others.
Abuse:
No concern is given to the needs, desires, and limits of the abused person.
SM:
The people in the SM scene are careful to be sure that they are not impaired by alcohol or drug use during the scene.
Abuse:
Alcohol or drugs are often used before an episode of abuse.
SM:
After an SM scene, the people involved feel good.
Abuse:
After an episode of abuse, the people involved feel bad.

Great list. I'd like to clarify one point in the first item: Abuse is an "out-of-control" situation for the recipient of the abuse. For the abuser, it's about maintaining control without regard for negotiation or consent. The abuser is not out of control, they are invariably willing to engage in any tactic to maintain control.

Another way to think about abuse vs SM might be in terms of power exchange. SM is an exchange of power dynamics. Relationship abuse involves no exchange.

Heart
(disclosure: I have worked as an abuse prevention/intervention advocate for 20 years, including with folks in kink/leather/queer communities).

[Quintease]

Both of my really unhealthy relationships involved kink. I'm not saying the kink caused the nastiness, I'm saying I didn't notice how unhealthy we were because of the kink. One of my exes was sub and our relationship got harder and harder for me to be in, until one day she accused me of abuse. We pretty much never played again until we broke up not long after.

The other relationship, ironically, was completely vanilla, though my partner at the time described herself as 'top' and even had a sub. Manipulative, lying and a total head-fuck she was, Top she was not. Her relationship with her sub really disturbed me but really, I should have been more concerned about her relationship with me!

Being an on/off part of the kink scene, I guess I knew the rules but didn't think they applied to me. However it later transpired that a few kinksters in my extended circles were 'concerned', but they never said anything to me:|

[Kaison]

I've witnessed stuff like this before and it is very disturbing but unless the sub/bottom is willing to accept that they are being abused I'm guessing there is buggery flip you can do about it.

[Cajun_dee]

<snip>Not much different then a vanilla relationship really. There are times when you're both are not on the same page, however when you care about someone you want to make them happy and give them what they need. I'm willing to bet Dee that if you were feeling extra submissive, more needy, etc. that even if she wasn't in the mood she would address your needs. I'm not saying that she would feel pressured to "service" you but her deep love and commitment would want to make sure you were ok. Let's face it, our desire for D/s, etc. is much deeper then sexual libido, right? It is for me. At the same time I realize that all can be a compromise.

</snip>

OH Absolutely, in fact, I am required to express any wants or needs i have, I may not get them but I am expected to state my wishes, especially if it is for stress relief. Syr knows it's like medicine for me, and if I don't receive some sort of release, I start to snowball into a big ball of emotional basketcaseness, it ain't pretty. She prefers to avoid that, but sometimes it just comes up on me, like when I am stressed about something, or the moon is empty, or I am PMSing, etc etc etc... BUT She decides when, how , where, with what ( :| ) , and for how long no matter who initiates play. I better be ready when She points up those stairs, or wherever She sends me. Sometimes out of the blue, She decides She likes a certain tree along one of the trails and before I know it I am tied to it, naked, getting my backside worked over. But if She thinks I need it, I get it. If She feels like giving it to me, I get it. If She feels like we need family play time, we all get it, that's how we roll... To me, it's a win win, very healthy situation.

[Sachita]

OH Absolutely, in fact, I am required to express any wants or needs i have, I may not get them but I am expected to state my wishes, especially if it is for stress relief. Syr knows it's like medicine for me, and if I don't receive some sort of release, I start to snowball into a big ball of emotional basketcaseness, it ain't pretty. She prefers to avoid that, but sometimes it just comes up on me, like when I am stressed about something, or the moon is empty, or I am PMSing, etc etc etc... BUT She decides when, how , where, with what ( :| ) , and for how long no matter who initiates play. I better be ready when She points up those stairs, or wherever She sends me. Sometimes out of the blue, She decides She likes a certain tree along one of the trails and before I know it I am tied to it, naked, getting my backside worked over. But if She thinks I need it, I get it. If She feels like giving it to me, I get it. If She feels like we need family play time, we all get it, that's how we roll... To me, it's a win win, very healthy situation.



oh girl I know you love those trees! lol


yes no matter the intensity of the play or degradation it must strengthen,

I tell my slaves "to make you the best you can be so you can be that for me."