Difference between masculine and male identified?

[Darth Denkay]

Here lately in the forums (on two sites) there has been a good bit of focus on female and male identified butches, some of it respectful and some of it not. As I've read through them, I have found myself not exactly sure which "camp" I belong in. As is so common it feels as though it is reducing gender to a binary.

Here's my take on it. I do identify as female in terms of physical sex. I use the terms male and female to specify physical sex (biological) so it goes without saying that I am female. However when it comes to gender, if I'm going to describe what type of butch I am I prefer masculine-identified to male identified. As I write this, it occurs to me that perhaps many (all?) female identified butches do identify as masculine, so maybe this isn't a useful distinction.

If I had to choose one I would go with male-identified, because in my mind that recognizes my masculine identity. I do prefer male pronouns, again because they celebrate me as a masculine individual. Still I don't want to be a man and I don't really identify as male because to me it describes sex.

Thoughts?

[atomiczombie]

I think you should go with what makes you comfortable when it comes to your ID. No one has a right to tell you who you are, that is up to you to decide.

For me, male is a lot more than what's between my legs. It's what's between my ears. I do experience gender as separate from the physical equipment one was born with. In that sense, male to me is a gender. I don't feel like a woman, and never did. I grew up feeling wrong in my body and knew it from a very young age. As a small kid, I knew I belonged with the boys as school, and had nothing (beyond having a vagina) in common with other little girls. When I told my mother that I wanted to be a boy, she told me I was a girl and that was that and I had to accept it. I resigned myself to that and was miserable for many years of my life. Coming out as a butch lesbian in my early 30s was great, but it still didn't quite feel right. I just know inside that I am male. I knew it as a kid, and I have finally come back to that truth now. That is my story. For me, there is definitely a big difference between being a woman-identified butch and a transguy. My lesson learned in my personal journey is to be true to myself and be aware that I am on a journey of self-discovery. I hope this helps a little.

[Toughy]

I am a walking butch poster.........

I am a woman, a female and masculine........

however I am not masculine id'd or male id'd

I am a butch woman.....2 genders occupying the same space.........

to be honest though...........I do have a male id'd part.....it would the the powered-up leather Top/Dom part..........I'm Syr in that head space.....I don't live in that space though.....I play in it when the mood strikes me........

[Andrew, Jr.]

I live as a man. I try my best to pass. I have had the surgeries, but am not on hormones. I am never going to be allowed to have t. That is what cards I was dealt - all from a childhood head injury.

[Blaze]

Very difficult question for me. 99.9% of the time I am called Sir, Mister, Him. It's not that I try to look male ID'ed. It's just a given. I have been asked many times from others; at what stage am I in my Trans-gendered transformation. My answer is I am at no stage. When I was 16 I had intestine cancer, to which I had to take Chemo as well as steroids. Thus, I could grow side burns as well as a decent beard if I chose to. But I prefer to shave daily sometime twice a day, is it a blessing? Not really, I hate the
5 O'clock shadow that follows. I do feel comfortable with myself, yet sometimes when I look in the mirror, I am down fonded at what I see. I feel very masculine and yet my breast depress me. I don't want to do any changes to my body, I guess because my mind is strong enough to recognize that I am alright with myself. And that I am a woman, and can be butch at the same time.
Thank's for sharing this post!

[Andrew, Jr.]

Blaze, We are like the exact opposite. One who wants and one who wants not. Like driving a car. One wants an SUV and one who wants BMW sedan. Just the cards we were given in life.

Andrew
:harley:
:motorbike:
:cigar:

[Jett]

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

[MainelyButch]

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

Very well said....sometimes this is EXACTLY how I feel!!! I am the sum of both, a female presenting as masculine...BUTCH.

[Darth Denkay]

I appreciate all those who have posted but am not sure I clearly stated my question. Here, let me try again.

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Thoughts?

[Corkey]

I appreciate all those who have posted but am not sure I clearly stated my question. Here, let me try again.

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Thoughts?

To answer your question, yes. What to do about it to change others minds, shrugs, maybe we can't. Maybe we just have to live as we are, and not worry how others perceive us. It really doesn't matter at the end of the day, I still look in the mirror and see me, in all my glory.

[Darth Denkay]

You're right Corkey. It doesn't bother me in the sense that it makes me question myself - I know who I am - not male or female identified - but I just find it frustrating to once again facing an implied binary where I don't fit in one of the boxes. In so many ways around here we are careful not to construct binaries that it just surprises me, that's all.

[Corkey]

You're right Corkey. It doesn't bother me in the sense that it makes me question myself - I know who I am - not male or female identified - but I just find it frustrating to once again facing an implied binary where I don't fit in one of the boxes. In so many ways around here we are careful not to construct binaries that it just surprises me, that's all.

I agree with you my friend, so many times I said the same thing, but unless I put it in my profile, folks assumed a whole lot. I'm not particularly happy about having to choose, I'm Human and that should be enough, thing is it isn't. Don't know why and frankly I am tired of fighting about how I express my gender, is it really worth it in the end? For me no it isn't. I'm Me take it or leave it. :cherokee:

[Jett]

Kind of like having to choose from the two boxes all over again, when neither quite fit eh?

Go figure...

Peace,
Metro

[Greyson]

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.



Yes, it seems at times that the binary is still the standard, the standard to live and measure our identity. For many years I never thought I was "gender queer." I was a butch. No one ever asked me if I were male or female identified. It felt as though many believed that to be butch was by default a immitation of male. I reject all of this.

Through my own inquiry, thinking and living in my skin, I now know that masculinity is not restricted to cisgendered men or other masculine entities.

I think gender can be primarily a construct. However, I did not realize for most of my life, that I could construct and define my own gender. I identify as a Transmasculine Butch because for me, I cannot label myself a mistake. I am evolving. I was born into a female body because it is a foundational part of who I am. I also choose to move further into a more masculine presentation via surgery and taking T.

I am not content that in the realm of legal recognition I have only two options, male or female. I have the history, hormones, thoughts, experiences of both. Which in my mind makes me "other."

[Heart]

What is it that says that a woman/female can't be masculine? Is it the same thing that says feminine can't be genderqueer?

[Greyson]

What is it that says that a woman/female can't be masculine? Is it the same thing that says feminine can't be genderqueer?

I think that uninformed thinking says a woman/female cannot be masculine. I don't believe this myself. I don't think genderqueer restricts feminine but honestly, I have not given that particular notion much thought. I am sure I will think about it now.

[DapperButch]

I appreciate all those who have posted but am not sure I clearly stated my question. Here, let me try again.

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Thoughts?


Yes, I do believe that there is an expectation that butches be female-identified or male identified.

Personally, I am not a "female identifed butch" OR a "male identified butch". Subsequently, I identify as a TG Butch. I also do not regard myself as a woman, nor do I see myself as a man. (However, I do regard my sex as female, as that is what I am biologically).

Except for a recent thread on the "dash site" (I love that saying by the way...don't know who came up with it) where the request was made for only female-id'ed butches to post, I have never felt like I didn't have a "place" or didn't fit.

It was the first time that I ever considered or was concerned that butch threads would start to get divided into male id'ed and female id'ed threads. It concerned me for the community (more division) and then I also thought....hey, where the hell will I post? lol

[Darth Denkay]

Heart,

I very much agree with what Greyson says - masculinity isn't owned by males or male-identified, and folks can be masculine and female identified. Female masculinity is a wonderfully fabulous thing. If I am using female as a sex marker and not a gender marker, then I am a masculine female in all its glory. That being said, I know that many of my butch sisters have a strong affinity for masculinity, and it is theirs as much as anyone else's.

To go even further, I think even feminine folks can incorporate masculinity into their lives as well. Masculinity is free for all!

[Bootboi]

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

Right on Metro!

[AtLast]

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.


My butch identity lies within the realm of being a woman. One that is lesbian, masculine and feminine and whose gender stems from masculine energies projected (and formed) from the female (animus). This is how it has always been for me even when I did not identify as butch (or even knew of the term). Consequently, female-identified butch does provide me with an identification that allows for this fluidity. I can't provide an answer for how it applies to others only for myself.

I have never felt that masculine falls exclusively in the domain of men. Nor that femininity falls exclusively in the domain of women. And I feel that the limits of western culture (and language) is what keeps us stuck in the binary. Other cultures (including Native American), do not have this dilemma as they have several terms and descriptors of gender. However, gender theory gives us an opportunity to break through this isolation. For a long time, I could only make sense out of my own gender fluidity and integration through Jungian theory.

I gues, I am what I am, too!

[TIMBERWOLF]

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.
Thanks Metro, I guess thats the way I feel too. It wasn't until people and threads were trying to put everyone in a category of male Id or Female Id, well I'm not feminine but am attracted to those that are, I don't always wear boxers and I (WT) just bought a 3 piece women's suit for my job interviews because even as Butch as I am I have to down play it for jobs.I have to shave every day and I don't go by male pronouns . I believe to each their own journey or path to their discovery of who they are,and I wear the strap on in this relationship:bowdown:
TIMBER

[AtLast]

What I am getting the most from this thread right now is about deep hurt around divisive labels/identifications. I don't exactly know why this is just more salient to me in this particular thread (or site), but I just have a much more positive feeling inside about our communication. And this just feels so much better because I want to get past the places where we get stuck so often.

When I think about being butch, it is about a multi-faceted array of constructs. And when I run head-on into the negative stuff I hear at let's say, events like the dyke march during pride (or some other LGB-"TI" event), I become so bewildered. The assumptions about the B-F dynamic and trans-people (including the inter-gendered) along with the B-F dynamic in general remain stuck in what we are talking about. Doesn't matter at all about individual identifications. So much of this has been part of my experience throughout many years now.

I do understand how and why certain identifiers have ended up as terms that can inflame and cause division. I am thinking that developing more sensitivity to this is one way I can at least diffuse some of this. I remember feeling somewhat angry in a thread in the dist site in which I felt I had to keep posting disclaimers concerning TG/I identities to ward off being viewed as anti-trans. My struggle was with needing to claim my female butch identification with pride, but knowing that TG/I friends and a family member also needed my support and for me to just be aware of the other side of the coin.

What I have been experiencing here from many male-identified, TG/I butches (and their partners) feels much more mutually supportive.

Thinking we need a whole lot more of this! I can't see developing more inclusive and positive butch frameworks without sifting out what sets apartmale and masculine. This is just a part of opening one's mind and not depending on stereotypic, or assummed definitions (for me, anyway).

:LGBTQFlag:Hey, maybe we all will gather under this flag once and for all!

[Apocalipstic]

It is great to see this conversation happening with civility and love :)

[Jett]

I find it very interesting that what I hear consistently is that many (not saying all) butches don't feel the pressure/need to publicly identify as one or the other until entering (mainly online) B-F communities. The only advice I would give to someone who's suddenly finds themselves mulling the "ID's" to try and find a fit... is to look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to.

Because at what point are we no longer breaking gender stereotypes when we define/label ourselves as XYZ ID'd butches, but rather bowing to the binary stereotype and kissing patriarchal ass-umptions and expectations of the sexes by obediently adhering to their perceived limits/restrictions in what female/male means.

I feel like in turn we're sometimes failing to stronghold the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches without needing additional outside affirmation in that context.

Again, just random thoughts...
Metro

[AtLast]

I find it very interesting that what I hear consistently is that many (not saying all) butches don't feel the pressure/need to publicly identify as one or the other until entering (mainly online) B-F communities. The only advice I would give to someone who's suddenly finds themselves mulling the "ID's" to try and find a fit... is to look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to.

Because at what point are we no longer breaking gender stereotypes when we define/label ourselves as XYZ ID'd butches, but rather bowing to the binary stereotype and kissing patriarchal ass-umptions and expectations of the sexes by obediently adhering to their perceived limits/restrictions in what female/male means.

I feel like in turn we're sometimes failing to stronghold the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches without needing additional outside affirmation in that context.

Again, just random thoughts...
Metro

And random wisdom like this that speaks to so much of what I have experienced and I think, bowed to at times. Thoughts about why I have had such differing experiences within the B-F comminity than what I brought along with me as being someone with significant TG friends since the 1960's outside of it. You have hit on something, Metro that has often puzzled (and offended) me just as a human being. I hope this gets explored more in the thread.

[Luckydwg07]

its may just be a style for some and maybe a lucky break to find their niche if they feel comfortable.

no more outside affirmation.. the people you met know you as unique thats the intriguing part

I find it very interesting that what I hear consistently is that many (not saying all) butches don't feel the pressure/need to publicly identify as one or the other until entering (mainly online) B-F communities. The only advice I would give to someone who's suddenly finds themselves mulling the "ID's" to try and find a fit... is to look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to.

Because at what point are we no longer breaking gender stereotypes when we define/label ourselves as XYZ ID'd butches, but rather bowing to the binary stereotype and kissing patriarchal ass-umptions and expectations of the sexes by obediently adhering to their perceived limits/restrictions in what female/male means.

I feel like in turn we're sometimes failing to stronghold the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches without needing additional outside affirmation in that context.

Again, just random thoughts...
Metro

[Corkey]

I think its great if you don't need any other qualifiers to your ID. Some of us however do, so that we have our place under the sun. It really is good for us to be able to discuss these issues in a safe environment. If the male aspect doesn't fit, don't use it. If it does, you are free to decide for yourself how it effects who you are.
I think because we get to choose for ourselves how we identify, information about gender identity is useful. I'm not giving any credence to "The Man" when I choose to use the male identifier. I'm a guy in a female body who isn't going to transition.
Simple, yes, one would think. How I choose to identify has no bearing on any one else, and frankly it isn't any one else's business how I choose to express that energy.
That's my .02 for the day.

[Mister Bent]

I find it very interesting that what I hear consistently is that many (not saying all) butches don't feel the pressure/need to publicly identify as one or the other until entering (mainly online) B-F communities. The only advice I would give to someone who's suddenly finds themselves mulling the "ID's" to try and find a fit... is to look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to.

Because at what point are we no longer breaking gender stereotypes when we define/label ourselves as XYZ ID'd butches, but rather bowing to the binary stereotype and kissing patriarchal ass-umptions and expectations of the sexes by obediently adhering to their perceived limits/restrictions in what female/male means.

I feel like in turn we're sometimes failing to stronghold the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches without needing additional outside affirmation in that context.

Again, just random thoughts...
Metro


Sometimes I really appreciate your random thoughts. I agree that it is of fundamental importance to examine and break down the role that entering "online B-F communities" plays in self-identification. I did a lot of navel gazing on it myself (and my own navel) when I first got involved online back when Al Gore first invented the internets. I didn't pick my lane and quit then, either. I still continue to evaluate what my identity means to me, both online and in the "real world."

It's not a label for identification and nutritional information purposes. It speaks, instead, to the skin that I live in and how I can most be comfortable in that skin. It harkens back to my childhood, my development, and exactly how I live today. It is challenged by being a parent, a professional, a sibling, and offspring. Still, regardless of pronoun, I remain the same. How others see me usually has no impact on what I see in the mirror, but it took me a long time to recognize the face staring back at me. I say "usually" with intent, because I would be lying if I did not admit that there have been times aplenty that interactions with others has driven me to the mirror, or deep inside myself trying to see what they see, and to see past it again.

You give fantastic advice when you say, "look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to." Because once we slap on that tag and step out into the world, online or otherwise a whole shit-ton of expectations and other sundry baggage is going to crop up. It certainly didn't occur to me years ago that my male identification was going to mean I would sometimes face accusations of male privilege and misogyny; that I was a creature of the patriarchy as sure as any cis-gendered man. I know myself otherwise, but have come to see - slowly, I admit - how much responsibility I have to ensure that others can see that as well. While they may operate out of assumption, I do feel the onus is on me to be more careful with my actions and words (and I obviously fail at times) to not reinforce those expectations, even if (especially if) unwittingly. In short, I need to be mindful and take care. I have to practice everyday, even when I am cranky, tired, or lazy.

This has potency for me, "the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches" and I absolutely want to stronghold that.

[Luckydwg07]

Real simple I'll draw blood/fight for me & whoever wants to be themselves its simple.
I stand alone most of the time though n thats ok ;)

[Lillie]

When I first met hym and we started to get to know each other..I asked.."how do you identify" it is important for me to know this..so the boundaries are there..I loved what he said

"Im masculine..but i feel like I am the feminine side of a man..the softer side.."This helped me so much to understand hym...confusion in the beginning for this femme anyway is a turn off..be upfront about who and how you identify..makes it easier for both..

Lillie

[MysticOceansFL]

Darth I agree with you on this topic I am a lesbian identified Butch. My behaviours are butch.

[Liam]

Could the distinction between the two, be that one identifies as a lesbian, and the other does not?

[chefhottie25]

Yes, I do believe that there is an expectation that butches be female-identified or male identified.

Personally, I am not a "female identifed butch" OR a "male identified butch". Subsequently, I identify as a TG Butch. I also do not regard myself as a woman, nor do I see myself as a man. (However, I do regard my sex as female, as that is what I am biologically).

Except for a recent thread on the "dash site" (I love that saying by the way...don't know who came up with it) where the request was made for only female-id'ed butches to post, I have never felt like I didn't have a "place" or didn't fit.

It was the first time that I ever considered or was concerned that butch threads would start to get divided into male id'ed and female id'ed threads. It concerned me for the community (more division) and then I also thought....hey, where the hell will I post? lol




I agree with what you say about not regarding yourself as a woman or a man. I identify as a boi. I am called hy and hym. However, I have no desire to transition...because I am not a man. I also don't identify as a butch of any sort. I feel uncomfortable posting in butch threads. I am not really sure what all this means in terms of my identity and gender. Whatever the confusion...it works for me. I am comfortable and happy being a boi.

[AtLast]

I agree with what you say about not regarding yourself as a woman or a man. I identify as a boi. I am called hy and hym. However, I have no desire to transition...because I am not a man. I also don't identify as a butch of any sort. I feel uncomfortable posting in butch threads. I am not really sure what all this means in terms of my identity and gender. Whatever the confusion...it works for me. I am comfortable and happy being a boi.

I am finding more and more that younger people take this stance and actually are breaking down the binary in a whole new way. Every generation makes its distinctive mark. This is a good thing.

I don't think you are the only one that feels the discomfort in butch threads. Sometimes I think we need some branching out with our topic area zones. maybe we need a BOI ZONE? Are there other identifications like this that may not (I am only talking from my own feelings, have no idea about everyone else) be represented well within the identification zones we have?

Just a random thought as I do see a younger generation coming up that really does seem far less caught up with butch, femme, trans, intergendered.

Could the distinction between the two, be that one identifies as a lesbian, and the other does not?

It is for me, but I have to think about those that use dyke instead. If there is anything I have learned about all of this from joining online B-F communities is that one identification just doesn't fit all. Thinking about Dapper's internalization and identification. And there are so many that really have combinations. I do view my sexuality as lesbian and am a masculine female attracted to femmes (although, a wide spectrum within femme identity- femme is really not a look to me- far deeper). Butch does fit for me in many ways, yet, is not my entire make-up. It actually is a small part of the person I am. The lesbian aspect is larger, but both are not defining for me overall.

Geez, then there is all the unfortunate negative stuff many have gone through from the old guard separatist lesbians that I have learned about from so many here that have been part of the B-F dynamic much longer. So, for some, identifying as lesbian is not what they want to do.

[EnderD_503]

I am finding more and more that younger people take this stance and actually are breaking down the binary in a whole new way. Every generation makes its distinctive mark. This is a good thing.

I don't think you are the only one that feels the discomfort in butch threads. Sometimes I think we need some branching out with our topic area zones. maybe we need a BOI ZONE? Are there other identifications like this that may not (I am only talking from my own feelings, have no idea about everyone else) be represented well within the identification zones we have?

Just a random thought as I do see a younger generation coming up that really does seem far less caught up with butch, femme, trans, intergendered.

I realise you post is moreso about creating an area for those who do not identify as butch or femme, and the discomfort some feel in posting/taking part in those areas, however, I just wanted to bring something up that was brought to mind during the first part of your post. Really, only part of it is a direct response to you, AtLast, while the other is addressing an observation I've made both offline and online.

I've read quite a few times now, on this site as well as the dash site, people stating that the new generation as a whole is moving away from the butch/femme dynamic, that it is breaking down the binary, that it is breaking away from stereotypes, and that young people are no longer caught up in gender, as though feeling a resonance in traditional gender dynamics is somehow negative.

That is all well and good for those who are truly androgynous and doing so, however, I think such posts give off the impression that the entire younger generation (not sure how exactly you're defining it here, or if at 25 I fall into that younger generation) is moving further into the realm androgyny and leaving gender behind. This hasn't been my experience, and there are still quite a few young butches and femmes who feel the dynamic fits them perfectly.

Over time I've also read a few statements that either directly state or imply that moving toward androgyny is moving toward openmindedness, and that falling into the binary somehow denotes closedmindedness, or the inability to remove one's self from a box society has placed us in (as though one could only ever be placed within that binary by society). There are still many people under 30 who find that the butch/femme binary resonates with them, and there seems to be a tendency now to denounce such individuals as "slaves" to so-called "patriarchy," just as has been done in the past.

I also think that we should recognise that androgyny is a part of the current trend right now. It's what's being pushed by the media and by popular culture as a whole. I do not deny that there are many out there who truly feel themselves to be androgynous, but if we're going to delve into the fact that that some, in the past, have felt forced into the dynamic in order to follow a trend within a given sub-culture, then we should also recognise the state of current trends and youth sub-cultures.

I agree that everyone should have their own space (and if this post invades that space, then I'll be glad to start another thread on it, instead), but I get the impression that asking for that space often comes hand in hand with the implication that the binary itself is something inherently closedminded and oppressive, which is not the case unless one is forced into it, or feels the need to follow a trend. As if one has to be superior to the other.

We can make a lot of progressive headway while either staying within the binary or moving away from it, whichever more accurately reflects each of us. But I see a lot of people today both irl and online who seem to think that associating with androgyny, ecclecticism, underground sub-cultures or anything that appears to outwardly defy tradition automatically makes them openminded and intelligent, when in reality they have little clue as to why they've decided to jump on the bandwagon. To me there is nothing openminded about mindlessly following a trend, which many young people continue to do. Again, I'm not implying that everyone who identifies in such a way is following a trend, or that anyone in this thread or forum is doing so, but there are certainly those who are, and so I think we should be looking at both sides of the coin if there's going to be discussion on the negatives of one side.

I don't bring this up to point fingers or start an argument, but I do feel that this is often a barrier and the source of some hostility in gender-related discussions.

[AtLast]

I realise you post is moreso about creating an area for those who do not identify as butch or femme, and the discomfort some feel in posting/taking part in those areas, however, I just wanted to bring something up that was brought to mind during the first part of your post. Really, only part of it is a direct response to you, AtLast, while the other is addressing an observation I've made both offline and online.

I've read quite a few times now, on this site as well as the dash site, people stating that the new generation as a whole is moving away from the butch/femme dynamic, that it is breaking down the binary, that it is breaking away from stereotypes, and that young people are no longer caught up in gender, as though feeling a resonance in traditional gender dynamics is somehow negative.

That is all well and good for those who are truly androgynous and doing so, however, I think such posts give off the impression that the entire younger generation (not sure how exactly you're defining it here, or if at 25 I fall into that younger generation) is moving further into the realm androgyny and leaving gender behind. This hasn't been my experience, and there are still quite a few young butches and femmes who feel the dynamic fits them perfectly.

Over time I've also read a few statements that either directly state or imply that moving toward androgyny is moving toward openmindedness, and that falling into the binary somehow denotes closedmindedness, or the inability to remove one's self from a box society has placed us in (as though one could only ever be placed within that binary by society). There are still many people under 30 who find that the butch/femme binary resonates with them, and there seems to be a tendency now to denounce such individuals as "slaves" to so-called "patriarchy," just as has been done in the past.

I also think that we should recognise that androgyny is a part of the current trend right now. It's what's being pushed by the media and by popular culture as a whole. I do not deny that there are many out there who truly feel themselves to be androgynous, but if we're going to delve into the fact that that some, in the past, have felt forced into the dynamic in order to follow a trend within a given sub-culture, then we should also recognise the state of current trends and youth sub-cultures.

I agree that everyone should have their own space (and if this post invades that space, then I'll be glad to start another thread on it, instead), but I get the impression that asking for that space often comes hand in hand with the implication that the binary itself is something inherently closedminded and oppressive, which is not the case unless one is forced into it, or feels the need to follow a trend. As if one has to be superior to the other.

We can make a lot of progressive headway while either staying within the binary or moving away from it, whichever more accurately reflects each of us. But I see a lot of people today both irl and online who seem to think that associating with androgyny, ecclecticism, underground sub-cultures or anything that appears to outwardly defy tradition automatically makes them openminded and intelligent, when in reality they have little clue as to why they've decided to jump on the bandwagon. To me there is nothing openminded about mindlessly following a trend, which many young people continue to do. Again, I'm not implying that everyone who identifies in such a way is following a trend, or that anyone in this thread or forum is doing so, but there are certainly those who are, and so I think we should be looking at both sides of the coin if there's going to be discussion on the negatives of one side.

I don't bring this up to point fingers or start an argument, but I do feel that this is often a barrier and the source of some hostility in gender-related discussions.

I don't read this as hostile at all- you are claiming who and what you are and disagreeing with me. You are making points about something that matters to you. I did refer to many, not all in my post. I am also speaking from where I am geographically as an active person in many areas of our community and still do work (I’m retired, but volunteer clinical time to organizations) with younger people, mainly those raised in queer families (lesbian, gay, bi, trans, or intergendered, some being past heterosexuals). The population I am speaking about is urban, mostly middle-class (some working-class), and in college. Considering these variables is important because this is the make-up of the some I am speaking about. They all are active in an organization committed to offspring of queer people.

I do not view either staying within or going outside of the binary as better or less than. Neither is positive or negative. I am pointing out another way that I have indeed been experiencing younger people as part of our community That's all.

I do agree it is not a good idea to generalize, however, I didn't. We most likely do have a difference of opinion if what you are speaking in terms of traditional gender dynamics being based upon the age old patriarchal misogynist paradigms. Different generation, same old sexism and male privilege.

If you are speaking from some other context in this regard, then that would be different. I don’t have enough information from your post to ascertain this, however.

There are many positive attributes of female or male within the traditional binary. I am not saying that there isn’t.

Actually, I would like to hear more from you about this because I don’t want to assume anything negative with what you are talking about. You could be speaking to a whole new paradigm that I am unfamiliar with and I am always ready to hear something new.

[AtlantaButch824]

Very difficult question for me. 99.9% of the time I am called Sir, Mister, Him. It's not that I try to look male ID'ed. It's just a given. I have been asked many times from others; at what stage am I in my Trans-gendered transformation. My answer is I am at no stage. When I was 16 I had intestine cancer, to which I had to take Chemo as well as steroids. Thus, I could grow side burns as well as a decent beard if I chose to. But I prefer to shave daily sometime twice a day, is it a blessing? Not really, I hate the
5 O'clock shadow that follows. I do feel comfortable with myself, yet sometimes when I look in the mirror, I am down fonded at what I see. I feel very masculine and yet my breast depress me. I don't want to do any changes to my body, I guess because my mind is strong enough to recognize that I am alright with myself. And that I am a woman, and can be butch at the same time.
Thank's for sharing this post!
Blaze thank you for sharing. I feel the same way you do. I am masculine it's just my nature. I think like a man but when I look in the mirror I know I am in a woman's body. I am simply a butch/stone butch. I am comfortable with myself. Hopefully one day I will find a woman to spend the rest of my life with, who will love me for who I am.

[Jett]

I realise you post is moreso about creating an area for those who do not identify as butch or femme, and the discomfort some feel in posting/taking part in those areas, however, I just wanted to bring something up that was brought to mind during the first part of your post. Really, only part of it is a direct response to you, AtLast, while the other is addressing an observation I've made both offline and online.

I've read quite a few times now, on this site as well as the dash site, people stating that the new generation as a whole is moving away from the butch/femme dynamic, that it is breaking down the binary, that it is breaking away from stereotypes, and that young people are no longer caught up in gender, as though feeling a resonance in traditional gender dynamics is somehow negative.

That is all well and good for those who are truly androgynous and doing so, however, I think such posts give off the impression that the entire younger generation (not sure how exactly you're defining it here, or if at 25 I fall into that younger generation) is moving further into the realm androgyny and leaving gender behind. This hasn't been my experience, and there are still quite a few young butches and femmes who feel the dynamic fits them perfectly.

Over time I've also read a few statements that either directly state or imply that moving toward androgyny is moving toward openmindedness, and that falling into the binary somehow denotes closedmindedness, or the inability to remove one's self from a box society has placed us in (as though one could only ever be placed within that binary by society). There are still many people under 30 who find that the butch/femme binary resonates with them, and there seems to be a tendency now to denounce such individuals as "slaves" to so-called "patriarchy," just as has been done in the past.

I also think that we should recognise that androgyny is a part of the current trend right now. It's what's being pushed by the media and by popular culture as a whole. I do not deny that there are many out there who truly feel themselves to be androgynous, but if we're going to delve into the fact that that some, in the past, have felt forced into the dynamic in order to follow a trend within a given sub-culture, then we should also recognise the state of current trends and youth sub-cultures.

I agree that everyone should have their own space (and if this post invades that space, then I'll be glad to start another thread on it, instead), but I get the impression that asking for that space often comes hand in hand with the implication that the binary itself is something inherently closedminded and oppressive, which is not the case unless one is forced into it, or feels the need to follow a trend. As if one has to be superior to the other.

We can make a lot of progressive headway while either staying within the binary or moving away from it, whichever more accurately reflects each of us. But I see a lot of people today both irl and online who seem to think that associating with androgyny, ecclecticism, underground sub-cultures or anything that appears to outwardly defy tradition automatically makes them openminded and intelligent, when in reality they have little clue as to why they've decided to jump on the bandwagon. To me there is nothing openminded about mindlessly following a trend, which many young people continue to do. Again, I'm not implying that everyone who identifies in such a way is following a trend, or that anyone in this thread or forum is doing so, but there are certainly those who are, and so I think we should be looking at both sides of the coin if there's going to be discussion on the negatives of one side.

I don't bring this up to point fingers or start an argument, but I do feel that this is often a barrier and the source of some hostility in gender-related discussions.

I'd remind you that there are those that have called butch femme a trend, and also that non-butch- boi's, GQ, tombois, tomboys etc. or in general queer female bodied masculine "non-butch" people are not a "new" thing.

In the same sense that trans people always existed, but are now more in the media seemingly making them more in number... they are I believe just more visible and able to put a name to themselves and be out in who they are more easily and somewhat more safely.

I'll even put forth that many masculine females and women before this "trend" (which I call a movement even though yes these things get trend jumpers by default) ID'd as butch because there wasn't a choice, wasn't the visibility and thus information out their for them to put the correct "name" to the internal feeling.

I know quite a few who ID'd as butch previously are finally finding a place, they grew up taking the closest thing that fit even if itchy and not quite right. Personally I really struggled with butch ID for years, and avoided acknowledging what I'd felt for a long time... and to be upfront I haven't ID'd as "a" butch for a while, hence my lesser participation over time and finally change of my ID section.

I didn't talk about it publicly here because of e-x-a-c-t-l-y what you conveyed here, I'm painfully aware that this feeling is not all that uncommon in bf circles and I've been part of this community for a long time and I guess didn't want to lose it. But now I feel similar to chefhottie in finding a place in it and for me, and my own concerns about being accepted and so I've avoided like the plague expressing I'm not butch a noun. I would hope it wouldn't make a difference, but I also live in the real world.

Unfortunately my hand is forced here... as whether intended or not posts such as yours can create mis-information and judgments toward non-butch GQ, boi's, tomboys etc. etc. etc. and make it seem unwelcoming here.

But ironically I'm glad you said it, because come what may it's something that's been weighing on me for a long time.

It's not a threat to butch femme culture, it's simply a different "culture", other queer masculine female bodied cousins just being out and proud too. I don't know why we all can't just support each other without it always being seen as some kind of affront.

Metropolis

[AtLast]

I'd remind you that there are those that have called butch femme a trend, and also that non-butch- boi's, GQ, tombois, tomboys etc. or in general queer female bodied masculine "non-butch" people are not a "new" thing.

In the same sense that trans people always existed, but are now more in the media seemingly making them more in number... they are I believe just more visible and able to put a name to themselves and be out in who they are more easily and somewhat more safely.

I'll even put forth that many masculine females and women before this "trend" (which I call a movement even though yes these things get trend jumpers by default) ID'd as butch because there wasn't a choice, wasn't the visibility and thus information out their for them to put the correct "name" to the internal feeling.

I know quite a few who ID'd as butch previously are finally finding a place, they grew up taking the closest thing that fit even if itchy and not quite right. Personally I really struggled with butch ID for years, and avoided acknowledging what I'd felt for a long time... and to be upfront I haven't ID'd as "a" butch for a while, hence my lesser participation over time and finally change of my ID section.

I didn't talk about it publicly here because of e-x-a-c-t-l-y what you conveyed here, I'm painfully aware that this feeling is not all that uncommon in bf circles and I've been part of this community for a long time and I guess didn't want to lose it. But now I feel similar to chefhottie in finding a place in it and for me, and my own concerns about being accepted and so I've avoided like the plague expressing I'm not butch a noun. I would hope it wouldn't make a difference, but I also live in the real world.

Unfortunately my hand is forced here... as whether intended or not posts such as yours can create mis-information and judgments toward non-butch GQ, boi's, tomboys etc. etc. etc. and make it seem unwelcoming here.

But ironically I'm glad you said it, because come what may it's something that's been weighing on me for a long time.

It's not a threat to butch femme culture, it's simply a different "culture", other queer masculine female bodied cousins just being out and proud too. I don't know why we all can't just support each other without it always being seen as some kind of affront.

Metropolis


Thanks, Met. You have always been someone that has given me comfort in realizing that this can be a painful experience- trying to navigate through what is or is not butch, female or masculine and personally reconcile a place of harmony.

Like you, I am just not going to post much anymore about this even though it very much touches my soul. For me, even as one who identifies and FIB, there is still an area somewhere in-between that has yet to be defined that I can embrace fully that is consistent with my female masculinity (speaking only for myself with the last statement).

I find that I can get support and understanding much more readily outside of B-F sites for this. But, so glad this site exists and is growing. Have hope that the obvious care of the admin in creating a much more open space will prevail concerning gender issues. Open in the sense that there is much to uncover as yet and each person needs to find a comfort zone that is respected and honored.

[Jett]

Thanks, Met. You have always been someone that has given me comfort in realizing that this can be a painful experience- trying to navigate through what is or is not butch, female or masculine and personally reconcile a place of harmony.

Like you, I am just not going to post much anymore about this even though it very much touches my soul. For me, even as one who identifies and FIB, there is still an area somewhere in-between that has yet to be defined that I can embrace fully that is consistent with my female masculinity (speaking only for myself with the last statement).

I find that I can get support and understanding much more readily outside of B-F sites for this. But, so glad this site exists and is growing. Have hope that the obvious care of the admin in creating a much more open space will prevail concerning gender issues. Open in the sense that there is much to uncover as yet and each person needs to find a comfort zone that is respected and honored.

Thanks Atlast, in the end we are just who we are eh. If we find ourselves here, we're here for a reason.

I may not identify as a butch, but I have and do identify with butch on many fronts, like I said cousins. I'm still a "masculine" female gender bender (no that's not my "ID") and femmes are still the yin to my yang.

I think the personal connections that brought us all here, no matter the personal feeling of identity, is where the "community" of it all comes from, and not in that we all ID the same. And just because finding that "place of harmony" doesn't always land us in the same place, doesn't mean we don't travel a lot of the roads together.

I'm not going to derail any further except to say I have no doubt about the inclusiveness the Jack and Medusa intend for this space, I know their good intentions personally and have faith in that.

Ok, I have a date with mo' coffee... ;)
Metropolis

[Thinker]

And just because finding that "place of harmony" doesn't always land us in the same place, doesn't mean we don't travel a lot of the roads together.

Amen to that, Met. This is a huge statement and, in my opinion, is all that really needs to be said when people ask *those* questions....... Why would a man come to this site? If you don't get the "butch" thing then why not go to a lesbian site? Etc...

[DapperButch]

I'd remind you that there are those that have called butch femme a trend, and also that non-butch- boi's, GQ, tombois, tomboys etc. or in general queer female bodied masculine "non-butch" people are not a "new" thing.

In the same sense that trans people always existed, but are now more in the media seemingly making them more in number... they are I believe just more visible and able to put a name to themselves and be out in who they are more easily and somewhat more safely.

I'll even put forth that many masculine females and women before this "trend" (which I call a movement even though yes these things get trend jumpers by default) ID'd as butch because there wasn't a choice, wasn't the visibility and thus information out their for them to put the correct "name" to the internal feeling.

I know quite a few who ID'd as butch previously are finally finding a place, they grew up taking the closest thing that fit even if itchy and not quite right. Personally I really struggled with butch ID for years, and avoided acknowledging what I'd felt for a long time... and to be upfront I haven't ID'd as "a" butch for a while, hence my lesser participation over time and finally change of my ID section.
I didn't talk about it publicly here because of e-x-a-c-t-l-y what you conveyed here, I'm painfully aware that this feeling is not all that uncommon in bf circles and I've been part of this community for a long time and I guess didn't want to lose it. But now I feel similar to chefhottie in finding a place in it and for me, and my own concerns about being accepted and so I've avoided like the plague expressing I'm not butch a noun. I would hope it wouldn't make a difference, but I also live in the real world.
Unfortunately my hand is forced here... as whether intended or not posts such as yours can create mis-information and judgments toward non-butch GQ, boi's, tomboys etc. etc. etc. and make it seem unwelcoming here.

But ironically I'm glad you said it, because come what may it's something that's been weighing on me for a long time.

It's not a threat to butch femme culture, it's simply a different "culture", other queer masculine female bodied cousins just being out and proud too. I don't know why we all can't just support each other without it always being seen as some kind of affront.

Metropolis

Thanks Atlast, in the end we are just who we are eh. If we find ourselves here, we're here for a reason.

I may not identify as a butch, but I have and do identify with butch on many fronts, like I said cousins. I'm still a "masculine" female gender bender (no that's not my "ID") and femmes are still the yin to my yang.

I think the personal connections that brought us all here, no matter the personal feeling of identity, is where the "community" of it all comes from, and not in that we all ID the same. And just because finding that "place of harmony" doesn't always land us in the same place, doesn't mean we don't travel a lot of the roads together.

I'm not going to derail any further except to say I have no doubt about the inclusiveness the Jack and Medusa intend for this space, I know their good intentions personally and have faith in that.

Ok, I have a date with mo' coffee... ;)
Metropolis

Hey there, Met. I am wondering if you are willing to share how it is that you do ID at this point?

Or is your point that you don't ID in any way at this point?

Please hear this question as coming from a place of desiring to learn the different ways that masculine folks identify and not an attempt to pigeonhole you (and also know that it comes from a place of support for however you do see yourself!).

[Jett]

Hey there, Met. I am wondering if you are willing to share how it is that you do ID at this point?

Or is your point that you don't ID in any way at this point?

Please hear this question as coming from a place of desiring to learn the different ways that masculine folks identify and not an attempt to pigeonhole you (and also know that it comes from a place of support for however you do see yourself!).

I'm queer, more specifically dyke, I'm a full grown motorcycle lovin' hardcore tomboy artist who is a female. A she that looks like a he that looks like a she... daddy's little ambiguity. I'm fluid and depending what light you see me in I can be handsome or beautiful. But above all else I'm a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend, a lover, human and fallible.

I'm not trying to be dramatic or complicated... quite the opposite, it's that simple.

[AtLast]

Thanks Atlast, in the end we are just who we are eh. If we find ourselves here, we're here for a reason.

I may not identify as a butch, but I have and do identify with butch on many fronts, like I said cousins. I'm still a "masculine" female gender bender (no that's not my "ID") and femmes are still the yin to my yang.

I think the personal connections that brought us all here, no matter the personal feeling of identity, is where the "community" of it all comes from, and not in that we all ID the same. And just because finding that "place of harmony" doesn't always land us in the same place, doesn't mean we don't travel a lot of the roads together.

I'm not going to derail any further except to say I have no doubt about the inclusiveness the Jack and Medusa intend for this space, I know their good intentions personally and have faith in that.

Ok, I have a date with mo' coffee... ;)
Metropolis

Yeppers... very much a community based journey for me. Also, what Thinker brings up about the concept of butch in this all rings true. And I have been really fortunate in meeting and getting to know quite of few here on the same road and have landed at different intersections and our harmony is better than any barber shop quartet! Never off-key, just a different tempo at times.

[DapperButch]

I'm queer, more specifically dyke, I'm a full grown motorcycle lovin' hardcore tomboy artist who is a female. A she that looks like a he that looks like a she... daddy's little ambiguity. I'm fluid and depending what light you see me in I can be handsome or beautiful. But above all else I'm a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend, a lover, human and fallible.

I'm not trying to be dramatic or complicated... quite the opposite, it's that simple.

:thumbsup: :beerbros: :hangloose:

[AtLast]

The gender-blended female person that I have read some about most fits for me if I have to have a gender specific fit- which I don't really feel necessary. I have never felt what some GBF's feel about questioning being more of a man, but certainly know this is true for some. Feeling more woman than man (we all have both within us bio-physiologically) is at the core for me with an appreciation of the masculinity I carry that for me, stems from the female.

LOL... but trying to wear an exact identification of gender isn't really how I navigate in the world even though I do feel fully female.

An individual of any genetic sex may self-identify as fully female, having always considered herself to be a woman or girl, or as a female with maleness, in which current identification is as a woman, but with significant questioning regarding being more of a man (or boy) at least some time in life, or as a gender-blended female person, in which the individual perceives herself to be in some significant way both a woman and a man, although more woman than man. http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/IJT/97-03/numbers/symposion/ijtc0102.htm#An individually-based gender continuum

What I do feel is an appreciation for gender theory because it has room for all of the various ways so many of us have felt in terms of femininity and masculinity, masculine and feminine. However, I still feel so many of the traditional interpretations around me of what a man/masculinity or a woman/feminity is (or should be) and this is disheartening at times. I guess I prefer the blend and fluidity about present day gender identification, not the rigidity that seems to continue to permeate and control our lives. I think we are on the road to change this!

[SelfMadeMan]

I'm queer, more specifically dyke, I'm a full grown motorcycle lovin' hardcore tomboy artist who is a female. A she that looks like a he that looks like a she... daddy's little ambiguity. I'm fluid and depending what light you see me in I can be handsome or beautiful. But above all else I'm a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend, a lover, human and fallible.

I'm not trying to be dramatic or complicated... quite the opposite, it's that simple.

LOVE this! Thanks for sharing!

[Stacy]

I'm queer, more specifically dyke, I'm a full grown motorcycle lovin' hardcore tomboy artist who is a female. A she that looks like a he that looks like a she... daddy's little ambiguity. I'm fluid and depending what light you see me in I can be handsome or beautiful. But above all else I'm a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend, a lover, human and fallible.

I'm not trying to be dramatic or complicated... quite the opposite, it's that simple.

I love this!:cheer: