Safety in a Failing Economy

[Sachita]

People across the world are concerned with the economic systems, food safety and how they might survive a natural catastrophic event. I know that many of you are on fixed incomes, perhaps SS and government programs that help subsidize your income. In the event there was a shut down or program cuts, how would it effect you and what is your back-up plan?

I think that people are waking up to the fact that its best to cut your overhead, live more simple and that happiness is not about the things you have but the freedom to free from "things". I would like to open a discussion and invite everyone to share ideas, concerns and solutions.

I'd like to open the discussion with one of my favorite topics "Sustainability". No matter where you live you can begin to look at ways to sustain on some level. Recycling, container gardens, the purchases you make, what you do with trash, etc.

There is a thread here called "Tiny Houses (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4019)".
Some great ideas and links on small structures. This is an excellent way to escape that huge mortgage and drastically reduce your overhead.

Another thread "Growing and Preserving Food" (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1056)

No matter the size or location of your home you can grow healthy organic food and preserve it. This lowers your food cost and insures food safety. Let's discuss it.

We also have "Survivalists and Preppers (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63)"
Things to have and prepare in the event of a disaster.

There are also several threads on communal living. An excellent idea to cut cost, get help/support. If ever there was a time for us to ban together and network, now is the time.

rather then get into debates over political issues I'd like to focus on ideas and solutions. I'd like to welcome people to start networking and considering communal living. Work your idea here, post to meet others who share your ideas and how you might come together and make life easier. I see so many of you doing the same thing. Why not do it together? Lets us all help moderate and mediate learning ways to overcome the challenges and obstacles.

Please share!

[clay]

Excellent thread and thanks for starting it...I follow your posts often..you are a remarkable lady!!! Have an awesome day, Sachita!!

[Sachita]

Excellent thread and thanks for starting it...I follow your posts often..you are a remarkable lady!!! Have an awesome day, Sachita!!

how sweet thank you! Please post and join us.

[Sachita]

If you lost your job tomorrow and had no access to welfare or government assistance what would you do?

[Apocalipstic]

If I lost my job tomorrow....

I would have to get another job. I live in an apartment and am not very outdooresy. I guess I could be if my life depended on it though. I am a city girl, but I can work hard.

I admit that communal living makes me happiest. I at least like to have a roomate, if not several. It takes so much pressure off to have multiple incomes and skill sets...though in every situation I have lived like this it was me offering the stability.

[Sachita]

If I lost my job tomorrow....

I would have to get another job. I live in an apartment and am not very outdooresy. I guess I could be if my life depended on it though. I am a city girl, but I can work hard.

I admit that communal living makes me happiest. I at least like to have a roomate, if not several. It takes so much pressure off to have multiple incomes and skill sets...though in every situation I have lived like this it was me offering the stability.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to scare or stress you.

Would getting another job be easy? I have at least a dozen friends right now without a job collecting unemployment and they really want jobs.

Everyone has their strengths. When you partner with others as roommates, housemates, etc someone can cook, another cleans, another gardens, etc. I think its important to find these strengths when pulling your team together. Most of it is shared, however as you pointed out, you're not an outdoor person but this doesnt mean you can't help. right? Or maybe you can learn, share, do other things?

What is your biggest concern living with others and why have you not moved in this direction already?

No pressure. I'm here to help you sort it out loud.

[Countyfem]

First I would panic for about 15mins...Then have a hella yardsale..pack up and
head for the mountains...
I'm lucky that I can always go back to the family home-place in the mountains, growing up we used to raise pigs cows chickens and a large garden, would take some work as the land has laid fallow for the last 20 year but it could be done.

[Sachita]

First I would panic for about 15mins...Then have a hella yardsale..pack up and
head for the mountains...
I'm lucky that I can always go back to the family home-place in the mountains, growing up we used to raise pigs cows chickens and a large garden, would take some work as the land has laid fallow for the last 20 year but it could be done.


I hear you! I honestly feel the safest in the woods/mountains. I think learning basic living skills, regardless where you live is important. I see you are in NC. Perhaps we could meet up and have a little get together for some of these city folks to learn some country skills in the event they needed it.

[Sachita]

This post will be on housing.

Is anyone in construction? I'd like to get some cost to post.

If you review the thread Tiny Houses you'll see a simple shed structure someone took and made a cabin. Today almost every city has a rent to own shed company. You need to find one that makes quality, home like structures. They are basic. If you're handy and can do your own work inside great!

Or what about a used RV hooked up? You insulate the pipes, add a deck or even another small room. Can you live in a small space? Many do. Imagine how affordable to live this way?

How many are living in small tiny houses now?

How many people are considering making this move and downsizing to save money?

[Apocalipstic]

Keep in mind I'm not trying to scare or stress you.

Would getting another job be easy? I have at least a dozen friends right now without a job collecting unemployment and they really want jobs.

Everyone has their strengths. When you partner with others as roommates, housemates, etc someone can cook, another cleans, another gardens, etc. I think its important to find these strengths when pulling your team together. Most of it is shared, however as you pointed out, you're not an outdoor person but this doesn't mean you can't help. right? Or maybe you can learn, share, do other things?

What is your biggest concern living with others and why have you not moved in this direction already?

No pressure. I'm here to help you sort it out loud.

I recently got out of a long term relationship and do actually have a roommate. I was freaked out after the break up, stayed with friends a couple of months and we tried to find a house together, but ended up with apartments in same complex.

I am in a rebuilding and figuring out what I want stage. :)

I think at this point I could get another job because I have varied skill sets and know a lot of people...but as I start looking older who knows? and you are right, things are tough economically.

Great thread S, its making me think about what I really do want and need.

[Apocalipstic]

First I would panic for about 15mins...Then have a hella yardsale..pack up and
head for the mountains...
I'm lucky that I can always go back to the family home-place in the mountains, growing up we used to raise pigs cows chickens and a large garden, would take some work as the land has laid fallow for the last 20 year but it could be done.

If things got really bad I would move to Dalton, GA and live with my buddy Beth. :) Keep her house clean and do catering for movies with her.

[dykeumentary]

This post will be on housing.

Is anyone in construction? I'd like to get some cost to post.

If you review the thread Tiny Houses you'll see a simple shed structure someone took and made a cabin. Today almost every city has a rent to own shed company. You need to find one that makes quality, home like structures. They are basic. If you're handy and can do your own work inside great!

Or what about a used RV hooked up? You insulate the pipes, add a deck or even another small room. Can you live in a small space? Many do. Imagine how affordable to live this way?

How many are living in small tiny houses now?

How many people are considering making this move and downsizing to save money?

I build things, including small, off the grid structures.
I try to have this conversation often, I look forward hearing from people here.

[Rockinonahigh]

I have a life time lease on 20 acers out in the back woods of Louisiana,there is a cabin,deep well,plenty of game with a little used lake that joins the property.My son and I can bug out to it if needed,the cabin is made of brick and stone and has a fire place 10 feet wide and 4 feet deep with a 2 foot drop in the floor of it to keeep the ashes and wood form falling or embers going to far the grate is steel...yeah I know its kinda mid evile but sturdy as can be.My cousin owns the property but has no intrest in it,there is enough room to plant a guarden have some live stock to boot its so wooded that as I chop trees for the fire place I can clear it as I go.The only reson I dont stay there now is its location.When my uncle was liveing he took enough solor panels and all it takes to put them up in the cabin.Uncle is old army he set it up real good.

[Sachita]

I build things, including small, off the grid structures.
I try to have this conversation often, I look forward hearing from people here.

we look forward to your ideas. can you share with us in laymans terms? lol

[atomiczombie]

Nice thread.

I am on disability and MediCal currently because of my PTSD and panic disorder. I live with my folks because the only other choice at the time I moved in with them was to go into a psych hospital. I have been to a psych hospital before, when I was 15, and lemme tell ya they are not a good place to get better. If anything it makes you more afraid and depressed and hopeless feeling.

Anyhoo, I barely get by on what the government gives me. I pay my folks a little rent and I have a couple other monthly bills. That plus gas money to go to my therapist once a week (an hours drive away) and the occasional outing (to safe places) - that leaves VERY little left over for anything else each month.

If I were to lose my benefits, I would be up shit creek. I need my health care because of my ongoing medical issues. My fall back would be my folks. They would have to pay for everything. They are retired and on fixed incomes and this would be a terrible burden on them financially. I would be sucking up their retirement savings just to live. That would be my only alternative. If I didn't have my folks and couldn't get any medical care, I have no freakin' idea what I would do. Probably die somehow-someway.

[SoNotHer]

I started a biomicicry and permaculture thread a few weeks ago. It dovetails into this.

Economics is a system dependent on natural systems (the earth). The parent system is the natural world. The money changing game is a subset of that system, and as the fortunes or misfortunes of the planet go, so go our own.

Although more people will focus on the Kardasians today, some of the real news includes a little article that offers an even stronger message by the Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change that the extreme weather we are seeing more and more of is linked to climate change. And the losses are mounting.

In the past year, I insulated more, bought a couple used bikes, built more cold frames, got a wood insert for the fireplace and saved old windows and found as much reclaimed wood materials as I could over to work with a skilled carpenter to build a sturdy greenhouse. I would recommend the same and the following if at all possible:

1) Plant nut and fruit trees and bushes.

2) Build a greenhouse.

3) Start cultivating alternative energy sources - a wood stove, a wood insert, a 150 watt (or greater) solar panel and battery bank, a small turbine, etc. And consider insulation and anything done for efficiency's sake as important.

4) Create cold frames (very simple to make and old windows are great for this too). In some zones, you can grown year round in cold frames.

5) Start developing some useful skills and tools - e.g., mounting turbines, fixing bikes, preserving food, amending soil, etc.

6) Start treating water like the precious thing it is. Buy a rain barrel. Buy a cistern. Start a wet garden.

7) Have a disaster plan (often said - more relevant than ever).

8) Get to know your neighbors.

9) Make, build or reinforce where you are living as though a fire, flood or strong wind will come through.

10) If you have leaves (or other compostables), heat and time, you have soil. Start "making" your own soil.

11) Stop buying into the idea that the solutions must be bought. You have, can and will do many things on your own that do not require endless trips to Wal-mart and Target. Grow your food, grow your community, grow your mind.

[Cin]

I have to admit that stuff like this is very intimidating to me. I am not handy. As a matter of fact I am actually the exact opposite of handy. Everything I have ever tried to put together, I have screwed up. Sometimes it’s usable, sometimes only parts of it are.

I put this storage cabinet together but I put the shelves in upside down and the cans would slide off because it slanted in the wrong direction. But if you kept the doors, which I managed to put on right, closed it was okay.

Another time I put together this tv stand that had shelves and doors but when I finished you couldn’t use the doors. Unfortunately for some reason I wasn’t able to take it apart and fix it so the person I made it for was stuck with it like that. She didn’t make me feel bad and even thanked me but I don’t remember her ever asking me to put anything together again. Nobody ever does. At least not more than once.

They have come for my butch card but I always manage to hide.

I can paint though, but then who can’t? As long as one’s hands work it shouldn’t be an issue. I couldn’t build the tiny house or do any meaningful work on it, but I could paint the crap out of it.

I fixed a doll cradle I got at a yard sale once. It was off balance. So I took it apart and glued ( I can use glue, but not nails so much) it back together so it rocked and didn’t lean to one side…well not much anyway. And I painted it pink and white with flowers. So I guess I could do useless stuff like that. Not much need for doll cradles though when you are in survival mode.

I won’t even go into my experiences trying to grow stuff. Suffice to say everything dies. I mean I know everything dies, but the things I try to grow never even get a chance to live first.

I can fish though. And hunt if I have to. I am a good shot. I prefer shooting skeet or trap or other target shooting. Balloons blown up and put on water, a lake or a pond will take off right quick and it’s big fun to shoot them with a 22 before they get out of sight. However, I don’t like killing things much. I can do it though. And if I am hungry it probably wouldn’t be a problem at all. But that would be the extent of my ability to survive.

So as much as I love the woods and the outdoors in general, especially any kind of water, I wouldn’t trust my ability to survive on my own. Well, I can start fires and hunt and fish so I would have a very high protein diet. Better than no diet at all.

Truthfully I feel so inadequate around this kind of stuff, I mostly don’t even think about trying anything. I’m all thumbs. But that doesn’t mean I don’t want to live should the shit hit the fan. So I will just stay quiet and keep reading.

[Apocalipstic]

I've never been camping. No, never.

I have managed to keep an aloe plant alive for years only to lose it in a break up. :|

I am incredibly unprepared right now...hell, I am even grossed out by worms.

Maybe I need to make sure I take a direct hit if we go to war.

[dykeumentary]

I started a biomicicry and permaculture thread a few weeks ago. It dovetails into this.

Economics is a system dependent on natural systems (the earth). The parent system is the natural world. The money changing game is a subset of that system, and as the fortunes or misfortunes of the planet go, so go our own.

Although more people will focus on the Kardasians today, some of the real news includes a little article that offers an even stronger message by the Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change that the extreme weather we are seeing more and more of is linked to climate change. And the losses are mounting.

In the past year, I insulated more, bought a couple used bikes, built more cold frames, got a wood insert for the fireplace and saved old windows and found as much reclaimed wood materials as I could over to work with a skilled carpenter to build a sturdy greenhouse. I would recommend the same and the following if at all possible:

1) Plant nut and fruit trees and bushes.

2) Build a greenhouse.

3) Start cultivating alternative energy sources - a wood stove, a wood insert, a 150 watt (or greater) solar panel and battery bank, a small turbine, etc. And consider insulation and anything done for efficiency's sake as important.

4) Create cold frames (very simple to make and old windows are great for this too). In some zones, you can grown year round in cold frames.

5) Start developing some useful skills and tools - e.g., mounting turbines, fixing bikes, preserving food, amending soil, etc.

6) Start treating water like the precious thing it is. Buy a rain barrel. Buy a cistern. Start a wet garden.

7) Have a disaster plan (often said - more relevant than ever).

8) Get to know your neighbors.

9) Make, build or reinforce where you are living as though a fire, flood or strong wind will come through.

10) If you have leaves (or other compostables), heat and time, you have soil. Start "making" your own soil.

11) Stop buying into the idea that the solutions must be bought. You have, can and will do many things on your own that do not require endless trips to Wal-mart and Target. Grow your food, grow your community, grow your mind.

Excellent! Really, really good information in this!
I think it's especially valuable how you reminded us that these are simple steps-- "simple" in the sense of composting, meeting neighbors, and being mindful of water consumption-- they don't take nearly as much complicated management/effort as having a car, for example.
Permaculture is interesting stuff, with so many applications in all areas.
Thanks for this great post!

[Rockinonahigh]

One thing I do is save money at home,shure I have some in the bank but what if I cant get it out of the bank or even get to the bank.I know I would have to trade my cadi on for a 4wheel drive truck or jeep..

[Blade]

I wouldn't have a problem with this type of living. Ya see.........

My Grandpa taught me how to live off the land

I live back in the woods
I've got a shotgun a rifle
and a four wheel drive
I can plow a field all day long
I can catch catfish from dusk til dawn
Ain't too many things this ole boy can't do

We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine
you can't starve us out
and you can't make us run
Cause we's them ole boys raised on shotguns
And we can skin a buck
we can run a trout line

That's how "Hank" put it I'll just add that I'm pretty handy and can do most anything. Growing my own meat or walking in the woods killing it, whatever way it comes I can deal with it. I garden and can. To be honest my biggest set back is POWER. Not for lights or TV but to run the pump so I can have water LOL. So I guess as long as I had a well or running stream where I could get water I'd be ok. Growing up we ate quite a bit of fish and wildlife I don't have a problem dressing it out, but I'd have to wash my hands LOL yeah a country boy can survive

[Sachita]

Great info! I just got in after having to drive an hour to fetch organic food. :(
I'll need to come back and reply to a few post but wanted to say this to the people who say they are not handy or not outdoors people...


12 years ago I wore 4 inch heels, big hair and never left the house without makeup. I knew a bit about camping and fishing but nothing about living in the country, taking care of animals or any of that shit. When I first moved out to the everglades, my first real attempt at rural living, I thought I would have a break down. I had no idea what to do and things I never expected happened. But you know what? I did it. I cried, screamed and taught myself everything. Books and the internet didn't help me nearly as much as trial and error. Was it easy? hell no. Is it easy now? NO. BUT I can't even describe the level of freedom I have or the woman all of this has made me. My connections are stronger and even though now I can afford to pay someone, I also love the fact that if I needed to do it I could.

Nothing compares to challenging yourself. Nothing compares to the connection you might be missing with the universe. Get outside, explore and learn how to work with nature.

[SoNotHer]

I appreciate the honesty of this, Miss Tick. Einstein said, “I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.” That's what matters. Stay curious and interested. Everyone starts at a beginning.

I'd like to see a future Planetary gathering to be an offering of homesteading, off-the-grid, permaculture and survival classes. Hint, hint Sachita :farmbull::farmchicken::farmtractor::farmcow:


I have to admit that stuff like this is very intimidating to me. I am not handy. As a matter of fact I am actually the exact opposite of handy. Everything I have ever tried to put together, I have screwed up. Sometimes it’s usable, sometimes only parts of it are.

I put this storage cabinet together but I put the shelves in upside down and the cans would slide off because it slanted in the wrong direction. But if you kept the doors, which I managed to put on right, closed it was okay.

Another time I put together this tv stand that had shelves and doors but when I finished you couldn’t use the doors. Unfortunately for some reason I wasn’t able to take it apart and fix it so the person I made it for was stuck with it like that. She didn’t make me feel bad and even thanked me but I don’t remember her ever asking me to put anything together again. Nobody ever does. At least not more than once.

They have come for my butch card but I always manage to hide.

I can paint though, but then who can’t? As long as one’s hands work it shouldn’t be an issue. I couldn’t build the tiny house or do any meaningful work on it, but I could paint the crap out of it.

I fixed a doll cradle I got at a yard sale once. It was off balance. So I took it apart and glued ( I can use glue, but not nails so much) it back together so it rocked and didn’t lean to one side…well not much anyway. And I painted it pink and white with flowers. So I guess I could do useless stuff like that. Not much need for doll cradles though when you are in survival mode.

I won’t even go into my experiences trying to grow stuff. Suffice to say everything dies. I mean I know everything dies, but the things I try to grow never even get a chance to live first.

I can fish though. And hunt if I have to. I am a good shot. I prefer shooting skeet or trap or other target shooting. Balloons blown up and put on water, a lake or a pond will take off right quick and it’s big fun to shoot them with a 22 before they get out of sight. However, I don’t like killing things much. I can do it though. And if I am hungry it probably wouldn’t be a problem at all. But that would be the extent of my ability to survive.

So as much as I love the woods and the outdoors in general, especially any kind of water, I wouldn’t trust my ability to survive on my own. Well, I can start fires and hunt and fish so I would have a very high protein diet. Better than no diet at all.

Truthfully I feel so inadequate around this kind of stuff, I mostly don’t even think about trying anything. I’m all thumbs. But that doesn’t mean I don’t want to live should the shit hit the fan. So I will just stay quiet and keep reading.

[dykeumentary]

I appreciate the honesty of this, Miss Tick. Einstein said, “I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.” That's what matters. Stay curious and interested. Everyone starts at a beginning.

I'd like to see a future Planetary gathering to be an offering of homesteading, off-the-grid, permaculture and survival classes. Hint, hint Sachita :farmbull::farmchicken::farmtractor::farmcow:

Hell yes! Let's all gather at Sachita's and share skills and slow food! Let's do it!

[Sachita]

Hell yes! Let's all gather at Sachita's and share skills and slow food! Let's do it!


Mi casa yo casa- have at it. I have 25 acres back there, 30 total, nice creek, greenhouse, all waiting to be used.

what is slow food? lol is that a typo?

[Sachita]

I appreciate the honesty of this, Miss Tick. Einstein said, “I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.” That's what matters. Stay curious and interested. Everyone starts at a beginning.

I'd like to see a future Planetary gathering to be an offering of homesteading, off-the-grid, permaculture and survival classes. Hint, hint Sachita :farmbull::farmchicken::farmtractor::farmcow:


don't take classes- submerge yourself into life and survive that!

but seriously, any time you wanna tackle it, pitch a tent, yurt, rv out here and learn/work, have at it. I don't wanna see no cry babies though. lol ok ok go ahead and cry then get up and do it again.

I'm open to any kind of class or get together involving sustainability, outdoors, survival, gardening, (I suck at preserving so someone else needs to teach that)

[Sachita]

you can even live in my woods long as you take care of it and help me garden. If you eat eggs you gotta also clean the coop now and then,

[atomiczombie]

What I keep thinking about as I read this thread is that most poor people simply can't do this kind of stuff. They have no land where they can grow food. They have no money to buy disaster supplies. They get by on so little that keeping a roof over their heads and food in their mouths is hard enough, let alone investing time and money into gardening and solar power, etc. I like the idea of community gardens, but they aren't enough to keep people regularly fed.

In disasters, it's always the poorest of the poor (and disproportionately, those people are POC) who get hit the hardest. I am thinking of Katrina here as an example. They couldn't prepare and get out because they had no cars/gas money, etc to get out before the hurricane hit. People who are poor and live in urban areas would have the hardest time pulling off sustainable living. It's sad but true.

[Sachita]

what can't poor people do?

when faced with a economic challenge and unable to import food, Havana, Cuba ( a poor country) did this:

LME9d59xwpw


There are plenty of farms outside NYC cheap and or offering ANYONE a chance to farm free, live and work, partner. Maybe its true that they don't have knowledge of all the resources but they are most certainly there.

I don't think I even want to depend on solar. I like the idea of it now because I'm conditioned to use power, however if shit really hot the fan or the cost of EVERYTHING went up, can you afford the parts to upkeep solar?

I know a couple living in Maine who go to bed when it gets dark. They heat and cook with wood. They use some gas to power their boat to fish. They collect lots of things to eat in the water and woods, preserve it and when they can they grow and can. They can't afford too much else. They are happy and doing what they love. They don't have to worry about losing a job, right? lol

[Rockinonahigh]

My uncle told me once that no matter who or where u wre if u get with like mindes people chances of servival are better,u may not think u have anything to offer in skills but u will be surprised at the things u will be able to do.Just use this as a pretend..im choping wood others can be stacking it by sise or help in cooking,cleaning or jusy giveing moral support besides as the group progresses new skill can be learned by those who want to do do,asfar as im conserned "cant" dose not exist.

[dykeumentary]

Mi casa yo casa- have at it. I have 25 acres back there, 30 total, nice creek, greenhouse, all waiting to be used.

what is slow food? lol is that a typo?
Found this online:
"What is Slow Food?
Slow Food is an idea, a way of living and a way of eating. It is a global, grassroots movement with thousands of members around the world that links the pleasure of food with a commitment to community and the environment."

But mostly my friends use "slow food" as a way to describe the pleasure- and THE WORK - of food that they grew themselves, foraged for, traded for, made for themselves by canning or pickling.... Etc.
We use that term as a way to express the commitment to ourselves that we don't find virtue (or good flavors) in "buying" food in 21st-century-US-supermarket-ways.

Sounds stuffy to describe, but it's fun, interesting and home-brewed beer makes the girls go crazy!

[Sachita]

Found this online:
"What is Slow Food?
Slow Food is an idea, a way of living and a way of eating. It is a global, grassroots movement with thousands of members around the world that links the pleasure of food with a commitment to community and the environment."

But mostly my friends use "slow food" as a way to describe the pleasure- and THE WORK - of food that they grew themselves, foraged for, traded for, made for themselves by canning or pickling.... Etc.
We use that term as a way to express the commitment to ourselves that we don't find virtue (or good flavors) in "buying" food in 21st-century-US-supermarket-ways.

Sounds stuffy to describe, but it's fun, interesting and home-brewed beer makes the girls go crazy!


I love it!

[Blade]

What I keep thinking about as I read this thread is that most poor people simply can't do this kind of stuff. They have no land where they can grow food. They have no money to buy disaster supplies. They get by on so little that keeping a roof over their heads and food in their mouths is hard enough, let alone investing time and money into gardening and solar power, etc. I like the idea of community gardens, but they aren't enough to keep people regularly fed.

In disasters, it's always the poorest of the poor (and disproportionately, those people are POC) who get hit the hardest. I am thinking of Katrina here as an example. They couldn't prepare and get out because they had no cars/gas money, etc to get out before the hurricane hit. People who are poor and live in urban areas would have the hardest time pulling off sustainable living. It's sad but true.

My grandparents were poor but they was proud folk. This is where folks learn to take care of one another. One hand washes the other. People will share their seed with one another, they would share their canned or dried or cured meat with one another. You can only eat so much so fast and you don't want it to go bad before it's eaten. It doesn't take a lot of land to have a garden. You can use boxes, hay bales, drink crates, buckets anything you can throw some dirt in. I think one of the things people don't realize is how much waste there is in gardening, now during modern times. You plant it, it grows, you give some away, eat some can or freeze some and you are tired of fooling with it and you let it grow up. Back in the day you didn't do that. You ate from the garden until the frost got it and if you were smart you covered the delicate things and got up just before the sun and turned the water on the garden to get the frost off the plants. Best thing to do is plant a fall garden in the shade and it will make it threw several frosty days, and the very best thing to do is only plant the hardy green stuff in the fall. But again as for land you don't have to have a bunch of land to make a garden. My Dad plants his around the eaves of his house. And there are many things you can put in rows together if you do have a tiny plot of land to work with, example plant corn and when it comes up plant green beans in the corn, the beans will crawl the corn, you have 2 crops in one row.

Sachita I haven't noticed or seen you say that you are but I hope you are saving and turning and drying that chicken poop and tilling it in with your garden or whatever soil you are using. It's to stout to put straight on your garden ya have to let it dry out. Alpaca poop is the best thing in the world for organic gardening and you can put it straight on the garden.

[dykeumentary]

What I keep thinking about as I read this thread is that most poor people simply can't do this kind of stuff. They have no land where they can grow food. They have no money to buy disaster supplies. They get by on so little that keeping a roof over their heads and food in their mouths is hard enough, let alone investing time and money into gardening and solar power, etc. I like the idea of community gardens, but they aren't enough to keep people regularly fed.

In disasters, it's always the poorest of the poor (and disproportionately, those people are POC) who get hit the hardest. I am thinking of Katrina here as an example. They couldn't prepare and get out because they had no cars/gas money, etc to get out before the hurricane hit. People who are poor and live in urban areas would have the hardest time pulling off sustainable living. It's sad but true.
Hi-
I do not mean to pick on your post. You just expressed what a lot of people think, because of a system that has an absolute interest in keeping people "victims".
The point is: There is no alternative. The way capitalism destroys earth, and everything on it can't continue. Having an opinion that "poor people can't live sustainable lives" not only takes away their agency and shows a lack of confidence in their resiliency and ingenuity, but it diverts attention away from the institutional systems in place that inhibit them (and or legally forbid) them from acting in their own best interest. Health department red tape about selling/trading food you've grown, anyone?

It's clear that poor people get hit hardest by everything, including situations like the levees failing in the poor neighborhoods of New Orleans. (I refuse to call it "katrina"- it was corps-of-engineered racism.) but it's also clear that there are millions (billions?) more poor people than rich people, so they must be smart enough to figure out survival techniques, no?

What I, as a white US citizen see my role as is this:
Consume less. Grow more, eat what I grow and help others do the same.
Support anti-oppression organizing at local, national and international levels.
Expose and dismantle systems that keep peolple from using their local resources in their own interests.
Use the information and resources so richly available to me as a US citizen to figure out ways to heal the earth, try to make sure this info is shared fairly.

I'm not some pie-in-the-sky intellectual. I build and fix things for an hourly wage. I think it's because of working at that level that is easy to see when shit needs to be ripped down and rebuilt, rather than patched. And also to see when structures can be repaired or re-purposed in service of a more worthy goal.

[atomiczombie]

Hi-
I do not mean to pick on your post. You just expressed what a lot of people think, because of a system that has an absolute interest in keeping people "victims".
The point is: There is no alternative. The way capitalism destroys earth, and everything on it can't continue. Having an opinion that "poor people can't live sustainable lives" not only takes away their agency and shows a lack of confidence in their resiliency and ingenuity, but it diverts attention away from the institutional systems in place that inhibit them (and or legally forbid) them from acting in their own best interest. Health department red tape about selling/trading food you've grown, anyone?

It's clear that poor people get hit hardest by everything, including situations like the levees failing in the poor neighborhoods of New Orleans. (I refuse to call it "katrina"- it was corps-of-engineered racism.) but it's also clear that there are millions (billions?) more poor people than rich people, so they must be smart enough to figure out survival techniques, no?

What I, as a white US citizen see my role as is this:
Consume less. Grow more, eat what I grow and help others do the same.
Support anti-oppression organizing at local, national and international levels.
Expose and dismantle systems that keep peolple from using their local resources in their own interests.
Use the information and resources so richly available to me as a US citizen to figure out ways to heal the earth, try to make sure this info is shared fairly.

I'm not some pie-in-the-sky intellectual. I build and fix things for an hourly wage. I think it's because of working at that level that is easy to see when shit needs to be ripped down and rebuilt, rather than patched. And also to see when structures can be repaired or re-purposed in service of a more worthy goal.

I am not saying the poor can't do things. They are as capable as anyone. I guess I am just thinking, that when you work 2 minimum wage jobs to keep a roof over you and your children's heads, worry about how to get them clothes for school, can't afford a babysitter, can't afford a doctor, having to apply for food stamps, etc., how is one to have any time or energy to put into sustainable living?

[dykeumentary]

I am not saying the poor can't do things. They are as capable as anyone. I guess I am just thinking, that when you work 2 minimum wage jobs to keep a roof over you and your children's heads, worry about how to get them clothes for school, can't afford a babysitter, can't afford a doctor, having to apply for food stamps, etc., how is one to have any time or energy to put into sustainable living?

Ok, so what do you suggest? Let's talk about what we CAN do.

[SoNotHer]

Good reference. Cuba is the post Peak Oil model, and if anyone hasn't seen the documentary "The Power of Community," you should. It's inspiring.

what can't poor people do?

when faced with a economic challenge and unable to import food, Havana, Cuba ( a poor country) did this:

LME9d59xwpw


There are plenty of farms outside NYC cheap and or offering ANYONE a chance to farm free, live and work, partner. Maybe its true that they don't have knowledge of all the resources but they are most certainly there.

I don't think I even want to depend on solar. I like the idea of it now because I'm conditioned to use power, however if shit really hot the fan or the cost of EVERYTHING went up, can you afford the parts to upkeep solar?

I know a couple living in Maine who go to bed when it gets dark. They heat and cook with wood. They use some gas to power their boat to fish. They collect lots of things to eat in the water and woods, preserve it and when they can they grow and can. They can't afford too much else. They are happy and doing what they love. They don't have to worry about losing a job, right? lol

[SoNotHer]

Part of my vision with my farm involved teaching, learning and sharing. My farm has to be put on hold for now, but I would be happy to help support a gathering at Sachita's or elsewhere.

I understand your point, Drew, and I know people have to make choices they don't always want to. But seeds cost almost nothing, and even if you don't have land, you probably have a window and a pot. I grew a garden in different rented spaces, and I consumed less, recycled, walked or biked, read botany books and made other choices that didn't involve a lot of time or expense.


Hell yes! Let's all gather at Sachita's and share skills and slow food! Let's do it!

[atomiczombie]

Ok, so what do you suggest? Let's talk about what we CAN do.

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

[SugarFemme]

In my opinion, and speaking as a low income person, what I have often thought of is low income people need to pool resources like they did in old days. If you take 3-4 peoples income, abilities, and talents and have them share a home, food etc, they would be much better off. If one person is disabled and cannot do gardening, then maybe they can be in charge of bills. The person who is not so good with finances could take care of the gardening and so on. We live in such singular society that people are not so open to revisiting the past where it was a much more nuclear family situation. Just a thought.



Ok, so what do you suggest? Let's talk about what we CAN do.

[SoNotHer]

There's a great book entitled, Everything I Want to Do is Illegal. The HOAs have, in their infinite wisdom, made everything from hanging up clothes on a line to growing vegetables in your front yard a crime. This must and will change.

I appreciate you've got limited choices, Drew. I've had no car and taken two hour and half bus rides to work. I've slept on an old mattress on a floor with one sheet. I've gotten down to two cans of food in the cupboard, and I've had no place to live.

Obviously, when I was bouncing between a friend's couch and a vacant house and a friend's basement, I wasn't thinking about living off the grid or participating in a CSA. But the moment I had a rental contract and a place to stay, I was planting.

These times reinforced for me the idea of frugality and the value of "repurposing" of things. But I first learned to save and reuse from my mother who survived the Great Depression at least in part because she and the aunts she lived with were eating from their garden.


I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

[Sachita]

It might not be easy, however I believe we can do anything we really want to do. Instead of being forced to do it, having no choice, choose to do it and be prepared.

I spent most of my childhood, a poor girl in the ghetto, people telling me I can't do this and that. Thank Goddess I didnt believe them.

There is always a way. You have to want it bad enough. I believe you do or you wouldnt be here.

[Sachita]

In my opinion, and speaking as a low income person, what I have often thought of is low income people need to pool resources like they did in old days. If you take 3-4 peoples income, abilities, and talents and have them share a home, food etc, they would be much better off. If one person is disabled and cannot do gardening, then maybe they can be in charge of bills. The person who is not so good with finances could take care of the gardening and so on. We live in such singular society that people are not so open to revisiting the past where it was a much more nuclear family situation. Just a thought.


this is exactly what you should be doing. We have moved away from hands on community models and we need to return. Network, devise a small team not only for help but moral and emotional support.

As Blade said "This is where folks learn to take care of one another."

what a very beautiful thing. When was the last time someone took care of you?



and Blade- of course I save my poops! silly boy!

[Sachita]

There's a great book entitled, Everything I Want to Do is Illegal. The HOAs have, in their infinite wisdom, made everything from hanging up clothes on a line to growing vegetables in your front yard a crime. This must and will change.

I appreciate you've got limited choices, Drew. I've had no car and taken two hour and half bus rides to work. I've slept on an old mattress on a floor with one sheet. I've gotten down to two cans of food in the cupboard, and I've had no place to live.

Obviously, when I was bouncing between a friend's couch and a vacant house and a friend's basement, I wasn't thinking about living off the grid or participating in a CSA. But the moment I had a rental contract and a place to stay, I was planting.

These times reinforced for me the idea of frugality and the value of "repurposing" of things. But I first learned to save and reuse from my mother who survived the Great Depression at least in part because she and the aunts she lived with were eating from their garden.


I could not live in a HOA environment, however the times I considered creating some type of community out here I wondered how we'd approach this without so many rules. In order for people to live together collectively you must have some kind of guide. For instant I may not favor having a bunch of old cars close to my place or a lot of noise.

But I do think they take it too far when they deny someone's right to garden food. If a community like this doesnt suit your needs then find one that does.

FYI- I have a bunch of cheap shop light fixtures and those plant and aquarium bulbs. I have been successful growing all kinds of greens, bok choy, lettuce, etc in my basement. I might try growing tomatoes with them this year and hand pollinate the flowers. (its easy btw). It all depends if I get help soon or not. I need full time live in help. In fact I'm building my micro community.

Back on topic- you can get free 5 gallon buckets which make excellent grow containers. Let us get you hooked. If you have a small amount of money for some kind of lighting, I will personally ship you the seeds. Try one small edible plant and expand from there.

[Sachita]

Look at your overhead verses your income. Even if you have a low income are there ways you can save money and work towards sustainability?

For instance-

don't use paper towels, ziplock bags, etc. Use dish towels, containers.

Plan your trips to the store. Make a list ahead of what you need and go once a week.

Check your local farmers market and see if they offer coupons for disabled, retired, unemployed. Most do.

Check local farms and see if you can work out a labor trade program. Perhaps you can pull weeds, organize, clean, something? In exchange for fresh organic produce. Perhaps it only once a week and maybe you even have to take a bus but can you think of a better way to spend your day? You not only help the grass roots efforts but you help yourself. Don't waste their time. If you make a commitment stick to it. Contact them, offer to clean, do whatever they need in exchange of a box of produce of equal value.

Team up with a few friends to share meals or trade meals. Sit down, decide on a menu and health plan. When you cook there's always enough for a few meals. Make a budget with your team and share the expense and labor. Better yet sit down and share a meal or two per week.

Turn off lights, use supplemental heat when you can and heat the areas you are in. I stopped using central heat here at the farm and invested in infrared heater. I only turn them on when we need them and they are also in the dog areas set at 60 degrees. My electric bill has dropped a few hundred just doing this. I have a lot of power use because I work at home and my business (dog boarding) is at home.

Go to store offering bulk buys without packaging. Many of the health food stores offer this. You can also team up with a few local friends and purchase from bulkfoods.com they have lots of conventional and organic items.

Buy things on sale. Look online and see what stores carry organic things such as soups, beans, etc. things you can easily fix and also that store up to 2 years or longer. Check dates, buy extra on sale and begin your own stock pile.

Eat less- its amazing how much money we spend on food that will kill us.

If you are on disability consider moving to an area where the cost of living is a little cheaper and where you have good access to things. You have a wonderful resource here- get a few roommates also on disability, find affordable housing and share expenses.

more coming

[Sachita]

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?


I don't think anyone is trying to offend or deny that some people have additional challenges to consider. I believe we confront them and find solutions. We also need to be sensitive to things we don't understand.

Atom I think you are exactly where you need to be. Your parents are your family and need you. There are things you can learn to help your family. Stop looking at the "can't do's" and focus on what you "can do". It won't hurt to learn and be prepared to protect you and your family. You don't need a lot of money to do this.

[Glenn]

For those of us who have not prepared at all and are reasonably healthy if/when SHTF, and really do not know anyone close by, please, at least have a bike, some munchies, a bag of your important things like meds, water, etc., and a hand gun with at least 200 rounds of ammo so you can have a chance to bug out to another town for supplies. Also, I'd like to personally thank Sachita again for offering up her land to our community. Farmland here in the midwest, has risen to nearly $6000 an acre.

[Dominique]

I'd like us to take a few minutes to look around us. There are people all around us who need help. This is so important. I'm big on paying forward. As I said in the OWS thread, those of us that can, SHOULD.

The people needing help, may not know how to ask for help. They do not have white handkerchiefs tied to their front door. They are suffering in silence. Something as little as a ride to the grocery store (this is the first of the month, and food stamps get recharged) can be huge to a person who is feeling defeated and doesn't have a car. If you can afford $1.50, buy them a cup a coffee at the grocery store and shop with them. It will make them feel human. Too often we take time spent with people, for granted. This simple thing could very well make some ones day. That same person, I save my coupons for. I also recycle my newspaper to them. Yes, I can read it on line....but I keep the newspaper delivery person working (and I can afford the newspaper @ the $1.00 a week special I got it for) it pays for itself in the coupons. It then goes to my neighbor, who is a vietnam vet and is on a portable 02 tank. It helps him pass his day.(reading the paper, doing the crossword puzzle and the sudoku) He hand rolls the news papers into small logs and passes them on to a buddy :confused:...

This is a time when we have to pull together as a community, as neighbors. We have to reach out. Singles moms...do you realize how much you could help if you could buy some notebooks for the kids? Something we make a habit of doing, when we go to these professional outreach programs and they are giving away promotional pencils and pens (sometimes tablets) we put them in a designated spot, and we give them to a mom with a couple of kids every little bit helps.
How sad is it to be a kid and not have a pencil...or not have paper...(heartbreaking). This is something we always do. We buy pet food every time we grocery shop (treats too) what ever is on sale. We donate it to food drives. Familys hard on their luck, have pets...and it's extremely heartbreaking when your life is falling apart, to have to give up your pet because you can't buy it food. A $3.00/ 6 pak of canned food or bagged food isn't going to break us....and it's nice to give a big bagful of pet food to a food drive.

I took 14 computer paper boxes of books I had no use for (i mean really, NO USE FOR) to half priced books.....and they gave me $72.00 for them. I went to TARGET, asked to see the pet dept manager (that isn't what they called him, but that worked) told him I was spending all my money on cat food for animal friends .....they had a request out for food. (I had the article in my pocket) He gave me two bags that
were sliced open and I bought 7, eighteen pound bags of meow mix that was on sale, and target gave them to me tax free because it was for a non profit and I was donating......see why I love TARGET!!!

Again, we have to always (if we can) pay forward. all around us people need help. It's not hard to help. It's not hard to be nice. It's very rewarding. These are desperate times for some people! (don't forget about our little animals too)

[Sachita]

For those of us who have not prepared at all and are reasonably healthy if/when SHTF, and really do not know anyone close by, please, at least have a bike, some munchies, a bag of your important things like meds, water, etc., and a hand gun with at least 200 rounds of ammo so you can have a chance to bug out to another town for supplies. Also, I'd like to personally thank Sachita again for offering up her land to our community. Farmland here in the midwest, has risen to nearly $6000 an acre.


a bag of munchies and 200 rounds of ammo? lol thats funny. You can shoot your food or yourself if you get too hungry? lol

I have a few bins packed with stuff but you can pack a back-pack in the event you need to leave quickly. If you live in the city no doubt you'll have to leave.

But lets get back on topic as far as how you'll survive is the government stopped sending out money and large corporations closed down forced us into a mega recession. How can you live cheap, safe and sustain in the worse of times. Being prepared is important and I also think while you figure out a plan how to grow or get food and water, perhaps start stock piling what you can. Remember when the price of rice jumped really high? This could happen with everything. Especially the more big companies control our food sources. having enough food and water to survive should be on everyone's list. Even if you take an extra 5.00 a week, start now buying a few extra can's or a bag of rice and store it.

[Apocalipstic]

I do have a backpack of freeze dried food, blankets, wind up flashlights and wind up radio with cell phone charger.

[Sachita]

If you live in urban areas where you are solely dependent on public works such as sewage, water, etc. you should definitely have a back up plan. Know how you would leave if you needed to. Know what your next move might be. I know its hard but it's important to be prepared. Not just for disasters but devastating economic times. Have a food supply of some degree to at least hold you over until you figure something out. Learn some skills - how to start a fire (or buy something that will help you start a fire in wet and wind), how to create shelter, get safe water.

If you are able you begin to make a plan to live some place safer, maybe towards the country where you can at least garden, fish, forage for food. Imagine living like you did back in the old days when they didnt have electric, running water and walmart. I'm not saying you must live this way now but if you are able to live rural now would be the time to start planning to do so.

[Blade]

One thing that those of us who think our survival skills are honed well, don't really think of or at least I know I don't is gasoline. I live quite a few miles from town and I no longer have a horse. So if gasoline wasn't available or was expensive I'd have to figure out something there.

I believe it was 2008 a hurricane hit the gulf coast and it made gas here in the Carolina's hard to come by. I also remember we never thought hurricane Hugo could possibly come this far inland. I happened to see a gas truck at a convience store, it was a small local company's truck. The driver thankfully filled my tank for like $3 a gallon. LOL we think that is cheap now but trust me it wasn't in 1989. Actually pumping it off the truck is illegal.

But it is something to think about. How would those of us who live "out of town" get to town to get supplies if gas was hard to come by or if we couldn't afford it.

[Sachita]

this is for you Blade

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k485/dancingcreek/388718_291227854230703_155875627765927_1034666_163 1264691_n.jpg

[SoNotHer]

There's a gentleman in my community who has made it his mission to tell anyone he meets about Peak Oil. If you aren't aware of the term, the theory and the period we are in and about to enter, familiarize yourself please.

There is a movement called "Transition Towns" that is based on the idea that the easy, cheap oil has largely been found and the idea of transporting things from great distances at a hefty environmental cost (if not yet an economic one) is unsustainable.

Here are a couple videos and links on Peak Oil and the Transition Towns movement:

Or-TyPACK-g
rQF09NG00V8
FtcGTIsR964&feature=related
Q3uvzcY2Xug&feature=related


One thing that those of us who think our survival skills are honed well, don't really think of or at least I know I don't is gasoline. I live quite a few miles from town and I no longer have a horse. So if gasoline wasn't available or was expensive I'd have to figure out something there.

I believe it was 2008 a hurricane hit the gulf coast and it made gas here in the Carolina's hard to come by. I also remember we never thought hurricane Hugo could possibly come this far inland. I happened to see a gas truck at a convience store, it was a small local company's truck. The driver thankfully filled my tank for like $3 a gallon. LOL we think that is cheap now but trust me it wasn't in 1989. Actually pumping it off the truck is illegal.

But it is something to think about. How would those of us who live "out of town" get to town to get supplies if gas was hard to come by or if we couldn't afford it.

[dykeumentary]

Peak oil = yes.
Plus, the internal combustion engine was a bad idea when it was developed almost 200 years ago. I hope the stirling engine gets a more thorough investigation, it is an intriguing technology.

Here's a tip for your survival kit, from a builder:
Start stockpiling nails - all sizes, especially big galvanized ones. They are metal, which will always have value, they are great for structural applications. Nails can be hit with anything heavier than the nail. Screws are much less valuable, they break, the heads strip, they rust. Without power, you'd hurt your wrist and elbow driving them, that is if you have a screwdriver.
Just sayin'.

[Stacy]

I have a life time lease on 20 acers out in the back woods of Louisiana,there is a cabin,deep well,plenty of game with a little used lake that joins the property.My son and I can bug out to it if needed,the cabin is made of brick and stone and has a fire place 10 feet wide and 4 feet deep with a 2 foot drop in the floor of it to keeep the ashes and wood form falling or embers going to far the grate is steel...yeah I know its kinda mid evile but sturdy as can be.My cousin owns the property but has no intrest in it,there is enough room to plant a guarden have some live stock to boot its so wooded that as I chop trees for the fire place I can clear it as I go.The only reson I dont stay there now is its location.When my uncle was liveing he took enough solor panels and all it takes to put them up in the cabin.Uncle is old army he set it up real good.


I like the idea of communal living in separate dwellings. I'd love to find someone who owns a huge chunk of land, like the one mentioned above, and work out an arrangement with them to park my RV or Tiny House on their land in exchange for any services I can offer to the little community. It would be awesome to live on huge plot of land with tiny houses scattered everywhere and a like a big tent/building as a common area. I think it could work and could be pretty awesome.

[SugarFemme]

I agree with you 100%. People would have privacy in separate sleeping dwellings and maybe communal meeting and eating areas. And work could could possibly be each according to his/her ability. Each according to need. Socialist/Kibbutz ideology. I've lived it before and it works really well if thats the lifestyle one is comfortable with.





I like the idea of communal living in separate dwellings. I'd love to find someone who owns a huge chunk of land, like the one mentioned above, and work out an arrangement with them to park my RV or Tiny House on their land in exchange for any services I can offer to the little community. It would be awesome to live on huge plot of land with tiny houses scattered everywhere and a like a big tent/building as a common area. I think it could work and could be pretty awesome.

[SoNotHer]

And if for no other reason than for the pleasure of stepping on boards with nails. Ha!!!

Actually, I'm about to head to the gym and then head back to a pile of curbside boards that I started scavenging yesterday. Many are 2 x 4s with nails in them but still entirely usable.

Peak oil = yes.
Plus, the internal combustion engine was a bad idea when it was developed almost 200 years ago. I hope the stirling engine gets a more thorough investigation, it is an intriguing technology.

Here's a tip for your survival kit, from a builder:
Start stockpiling nails - all sizes, especially big galvanized ones. They are metal, which will always have value, they are great for structural applications. Nails can be hit with anything heavier than the nail. Screws are much less valuable, they break, the heads strip, they rust. Without power, you'd hurt your wrist and elbow driving them, that is if you have a screwdriver.
Just sayin'.

[SoNotHer]

That was the plan for my farm. You share the work and the wealth and draw upon people's strengths. Intentional communities are happening, and I think we may see more and more of them.

I agree with you 100%. People would have privacy in separate sleeping dwellings and maybe communal meeting and eating areas. And work could could possibly be each according to his/her ability. Each according to need. Socialist/Kibbutz ideology. I've lived it before and it works really well if thats the lifestyle one is comfortable with.

[SugarFemme]

Seriously, if you can ever pull this together, or need help doing it, please let me know. It is something I have seriously been thinking about for many many years.



That was the plan for my farm. You share the work and the wealth and draw upon people's strengths. Intentional communities are happening, and I think we may see more and more of them.

[SoNotHer]

You've really made me smile tonight. Thank you, and I certainly will. :-)

Seriously, if you can ever pull this together, or need help doing it, please let me know. It is something I have seriously been thinking about for many many years.

[Sachita]

Seriously, if you can ever pull this together, or need help doing it, please let me know. It is something I have seriously been thinking about for many many years.

you can start here! seriously. I have everything in place except dwellings. Greenhouse, barn, pastures, lots of fruit and nut trees, hens, coops, what else?

[Sachita]

I like the idea of communal living in separate dwellings. I'd love to find someone who owns a huge chunk of land, like the one mentioned above, and work out an arrangement with them to park my RV or Tiny House on their land in exchange for any services I can offer to the little community. It would be awesome to live on huge plot of land with tiny houses scattered everywhere and a like a big tent/building as a common area. I think it could work and could be pretty awesome.

I have a huge chunk of land. You guys are more then welcome to put tiny houses or rv's here. Much of the land is already cleared and I have a large creek.

The great part about southern virginia is its not too awful cold or hot. There are long seasons for growing and with a greenhouse you can extend that even longer. I am one hour to the Blue Ridge Mountians

[Sachita]

I like this one but would have wood siding put on. I like the windows.

http://www.capitolsheds.com/sunroom12x24v-whiteblackcharcoal-pch.html


I have a shed from this company:

http://www.leonardusa.com/browse.cfm/2,8.html

The sheds are made like houses and you can get any size, any style, with or without porch, lofts, etc. Obviously it effects the price. I would be more inclined to buy a simple shell and add the features as I go. For instance to install an upgraded window they may charge 3 times more then you waiting and installing new windows later. A deck is nice but you can probably get someone to build it later, cheaper or do it yourself.

I have another 10 X 26 (I think) out there that I paid 7000.00 for. I converted it into a dog kennel, however its huge and could easily be a cabin.

Most shed companies so rent to own so in 5-6 years you own it. If you have a business this really works out because storage sheds are deductible. My new building is only 10 X 15 but I pay 176.00 a month. It has two small lofts I use to store feed but they could have been made larger and especially with a deeper pitched roof.

I'm going to guess that adding walls, electric, floor, plumbing (not septic and well) could be about 4-7K. It depends how fancy you want to get. It could be as low as 2K with a simple set of walls and a compact kitchen
http://www.compactappliance.com/CK30-1-Avanti-Complete-Compact-Kitchen-With-Countertops-Sink-Hold-And-Refrigerator/CK30-1,default,pd.html?cgid=Appliances-Ranges_Cooktops-Combo_Kitchen_Units

The compact kitchens can get pretty fancy and expensive. they've become popular with the smaller living movement.


As for well, septic and electric it would be better if a few people got together and got a permit to handle one well and one septic. I have a 20 X 30 barn I might convert into a community center. I would need to put in floor, walls, plumbing, fix electric & would like to put internet, showers, potties, cooking area, etc.

[dykeumentary]

I wish I could go there now, Sachita!
Its great that you are making this opportunity available.
Thanks. Even if we can't go, it is valuable to keep our imaginations open to possibilities like this.

[Sachita]

I wish I could go there now, Sachita!
Its great that you are making this opportunity available.
Thanks. Even if we can't go, it is valuable to keep our imaginations open to possibilities like this.


I've always offered it, however as you know it's a scary leap for people to go rural this way. A lot of people dream about it, talk about it and want to but they don't for some reason. I know quite a few people who bought land with lots of dreams to do a community, offer classes, etc. Once into it they realize its tough to depend on other people.

But I'm forging forward regardless. I've accomplished a lot and I have the feeling the right people will surface. I'm working on extra living space now.

[Sachita]

lol- also I think I'm holding out for the "right" people. (wink) Maybe a nice collection of 4-6 somewhat kinky folks or at least kink friendly folks. You never know what I'll be doing outside and I wouldn't want to offend anyone. lol

[SoNotHer]

Given this week's news about the biggest jump ever in greenhouse emissions, you may see folks sooner than later.

What's your water source/s? And what's your elevation?

lol- also I think I'm holding out for the "right" people. (wink) Maybe a nice collection of 4-6 somewhat kinky folks or at least kink friendly folks. You never know what I'll be doing outside and I wouldn't want to offend anyone. lol

[Sachita]

Given this week's news about the biggest jump ever in greenhouse emissions, you may see folks sooner than later.

What's your water source/s? And what's your elevation?

I am 500 ft, however I also have a location scouted that is several 1000.

They seriously need to address the emissions problem worldwide. Do you have a link to the news?

I have a large creek that flows along the whole back side and a stopped up spring. It has rock steps that must be 100 plus years old where someone probably use to fetch water. It has dribbled and created a bog. It just needs to be cleaned out, dug some. I have a well but I'd like to get a hand pump.

[Stacy]

I've been reading this thread & loving it! I'm definitely subscribing. :)

[Sachita]

Stuff like this freaks me out

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/quirks-quarks-blog/2011/11/another-close-call.html

I mean come on... do we really think the government is going to tell us that it could hit? They wouldn't even if they could predict its general location. If it was to hit it would spawn huge trouble.

What I like about living tiny and simple is being somewhat nomadic. (I Know Stacy loves that!) so that you are able to move where you need and set up homestead. You could actually buy utility trailers and convert or used RV's but the biggest problem will be storage and taking things with you. I might be a large horse trailer.

[SoNotHer]

I put this in the breaking news thread as well. I knew inherently that the "worst case scenarios" were grossly underestimated.


http://news.yahoo.com/biggest-jump-ever-seen-global-warming-gases-183955211.html

WASHINGTON (AP) — The global output of heat-trapping carbon dioxide jumped by the biggest amount on record, the U.S. Department of Energy calculated, a sign of how feeble the world's efforts are at slowing man-made global warming.

The new figures for 2010 mean that levels of greenhouse gases are higher than the worst case scenario outlined by climate experts just four years ago.

"The more we talk about the need to control emissions, the more they are growing," said John Reilly, co-director of MIT's Joint Program on the Science and Policy of Global Change.

The world pumped about 564 million more tons (512 million metric tons) of carbon into the air in 2010 than it did in 2009. That's an increase of 6 percent. That amount of extra pollution eclipses the individual emissions of all but three countries — China, the United States and India, the world's top producers of greenhouse gases.

It is a "monster" increase that is unheard of, said Gregg Marland, a professor of geology at Appalachian State University, who has helped calculate Department of Energy figures in the past.

Extra pollution in China and the U.S. account for more than half the increase in emissions last year, Marland said.

"It's a big jump," said Tom Boden, director of the Energy Department's Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center at Oak Ridge National Lab. "From an emissions standpoint, the global financial crisis seems to be over."

Boden said that in 2010 people were traveling, and manufacturing was back up worldwide, spurring the use of fossil fuels, the chief contributor of man-made climate change.

India and China are huge users of coal. Burning coal is the biggest carbon source worldwide and emissions from that jumped nearly 8 percent in 2010.

"The good news is that these economies are growing rapidly so everyone ought to be for that, right?" Reilly said Thursday. "Broader economic improvements in poor countries has been bringing living improvements to people. Doing it with increasing reliance on coal is imperiling the world."

In 2007, when the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued its last large report on global warming, it used different scenarios for carbon dioxide pollution and said the rate of warming would be based on the rate of pollution. Boden said the latest figures put global emissions higher than the worst case projections from the climate panel. Those forecast global temperatures rising between 4 and 11 degrees Fahrenheit by the end of the century with the best estimate at 7.5 degrees.

Even though global warming skeptics have attacked the climate change panel as being too alarmist, scientists have generally found their predictions too conservative, Reilly said. He said his university worked on emissions scenarios, their likelihood, and what would happen. The IPCC's worst case scenario was only about in the middle of what MIT calculated are likely scenarios.

Chris Field of Stanford University, head of one of the IPCC's working groups, said the panel's emissions scenarios are intended to be more accurate in the long term and are less so in earlier years. He said the question now among scientists is whether the future is the panel's worst case scenario "or something more extreme."

"Really dismaying," Granger Morgan, head of the engineering and public policy department at Carnegie Mellon University, said of the new figures. "We are building up a horrible legacy for our children and grandchildren."

But Reilly and University of Victoria climate scientist Andrew Weaver found something good in recent emissions figures. The developed countries that ratified the 1997 Kyoto Protocol greenhouse gas limiting treaty have reduced their emissions overall since then and have achieved their goals of cutting emissions to about 8 percent below 1990 levels. The U.S. did not ratify the agreement.

In 1990, developed countries produced about 60 percent of the world's greenhouse gases, now it's probably less than 50 percent, Reilly said.

"We really need to get the developing world because if we don't, the problem is going to be running away from us," Weaver said. "And the problem is pretty close from running away from us."

[dykeumentary]

I am 500 ft, however I also have a location scouted that is several 1000.

They seriously need to address the emissions problem worldwide. Do you have a link to the news?

I have a large creek that flows along the whole back side and a stopped up spring. It has rock steps that must be 100 plus years old where someone probably use to fetch water. It has dribbled and created a bog. It just needs to be cleaned out, dug some. I have a well but I'd like to get a hand pump.

Sounds great!

What zone are you in? The permaculture people I studied with believe that the zone we are in will change, maybe even 2 zones in the next 10 years. Good to consider when planting trees.

I'm interested in water management with earthworks, but I'm not sure the little stirling engine tractor I will build will be able to bulldoze much...

[Sachita]

Sounds great!

What zone are you in? The permaculture people I studied with believe that the zone we are in will change, maybe even 2 zones in the next 10 years. Good to consider when planting trees.

I'm interested in water management with earthworks, but I'm not sure the little stirling engine tractor I will build will be able to bulldoze much...


I'm in zone 7.

I have lots of fruit and nut trees. Some have been here hundreds of years. I have cherry, apple, pear, plum, fig, goji berry, walnut, pecan, chestnut and I also have grapes and berries. Even if the zone changed I be ok.

[SoNotHer]

The zones have already changed, and we're adding on weeks to the growing season.

This animation details my area's migration from 5 to 6:

http://www.arborday.org/media/mapchanges.cfm

Here's another good source -

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9243405

Sounds great!

What zone are you in? The permaculture people I studied with believe that the zone we are in will change, maybe even 2 zones in the next 10 years. Good to consider when planting trees.

I'm interested in water management with earthworks, but I'm not sure the little stirling engine tractor I will build will be able to bulldoze much...

[SoNotHer]

From -
http://wwwp.dailyclimate.org/tdc-newsroom/usda/climate-change-comes-to-your-backyard

23 March 2009
USDA revises its plant hardiness map, bringing climate change down to earth for millions of households across the country.

By Jennifer Weeks
for the Daily Climate

As winter retreats northward across the nation, gardeners are cleaning tools and turning attention to spring planting. But climate change is adding a new wrinkle, and now a standard reference – the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Plant Hardiness Zone Map – is about to make very clear how much rising temperatures have shifted planting zones northward.
Hopefully the new map will clear up a lot of confusion about what’s happening to the climate.

- Charlie Nardozzi, National Gardening Association.

The guide, last updated in 1990, shows where various species can be expected to thrive. A revision is expected sometime this year, and while the agency hasn’t released details, horticulturalists and experts who have helped with the revision expect the new map to extend plants’ northern ranges and paint a sharp picture of the continent’s gradual warming over the past few decades. The new version will have a wide audience: the National Gardening Association estimates 82 million U.S. households do some form of gardening, a number expected to increase as more Americans plant vegetable gardens to cut food costs.

USDAmap-450“Anyone involved with gardening, especially with perennials, uses the map to pick the right plants for their location,” says NGA horticulturist Charlie Nardozzi. “Shifting hardiness zones are a very tangible result of climate change, and people will see that change happening where they live over a short period of time.”

Familiar to anyone who has paged through a nursery catalogue, the USDA hardiness map divides North America into 11 latitudinal zones, each representing a 10ºF range of “average annual minimum temperature” - the coldest lows that can be expected in that area. Zones 2 through 10 are each subdivided into two sections - “a” and “b” - that represent 5ºF ranges. Zone 11 (southern Mexico and much of Hawaii) is tropical, with winter lows above 40ºF.

Reclassifying a gardener’s yard into a warmer area opens new options for planting flowers and shrubs that would probably not have survived local winters in the 1970s or 1980s. And the visual impact of a map, with inevitable comparisons to the 1990 version, is likely to make even non-gardeners ask what it means to live in zone 7 instead of 6.

By injecting climate change into one of America’s favorite pastimes, the revised USDA map could become an important public education tool. “Hopefully the new map will clear up a lot of confusion about what’s happening to the climate,” said Nardozzi.

* * *

USDA climate zones are based on measurements from the Commerce Department’s National Climatic Data Center, plus national sources in Canada and Mexico. Every ten years the data center calculates new U.S. “climate normals,” or 30-year average values, for meteorological elements such as temperature, precipitation, and heating and cooling degree days for thousands of U.S. weather stations.

group-500Station locations change and methods evolve, so the climate data center warns that comparing normals between different 30-year periods may lead to “erroneous conclusions” about climate change. Nonetheless, the center released an image in 2003 showing the difference between average minimum winter temperatures throughout the United States for 1961-1990 and 1971-2000. In nearly every part of the continental United States winter lows were warmer during the second period, rising as much as 2.5ºF in parts of the Rockies, the northern Great Plains, and central and southern California.

USDA is not describing what the new map will show, but outside experts say that the trend is for zones to shift northward. “Some places have definitely warmed, although others haven’t changed at all,” says Tony Avent, owner of North Carolina-based Plant Delights Nursery and an advisor for the revision.

They also describe the new map as much more sophisticated than the 1990 version, which was based on a data set covering only 13 years (1974 through 1986 for the U.S.). The revised map draws on 30 years of data and uses a complex algorithm to factor in other variables that affect local temperatures, such as altitude and the presence of water bodies.

“All we could really do earlier was draw a straight line between data points, but now we’re trying to input a lot of other information,” says USDA spokeswoman Kim Kaplan. “We’ll pick up more heat islands and cold zones, and the edges of zones will be defined more clearly.”
We always try to test the limits. All gardeners are in zone denial.

- Michael Dosmann, Harvard University’s Arnold Arboretum

The new map is being developed by Oregon State University’s PRISM Group, a team of modelers that also produces climate maps for other state and federal agencies. Unlike past versions, the 2009 map will be GIS-compatible, storing and linking layers of information in a digital version that can be read with widely available GIS (geographic information system) viewing programs. It will have a resolution of 800 square meters, so users will be able to zoom in on their home towns or zip codes and see where they lie within zones.

USDA commissioned the revision after a flap in 2003, when the American Horticultural Society released a draft update based on 16 years of temperature data. USDA had funded the project but rejected the update, which was configured differently and showed significant warming over the 1990 version, with many parts of the nation shifted into warmer climate zones. (The Arbor Day Foundation displays a modified version of the rejected map on its web site, along with an animation that shows the foundation’s estimate of warming since 1990.)

Some observers suggested that the Bush administration pulled the map because it showed the nation warming, but Kaplan calls that idea an urban myth. “There was no memo from the White House,” she says. “The draft was rejected because it wasn’t web-friendly and wasn’t layered in a standard GIS format. The data were never reviewed – formatting and technology issues got it bounced.”

Both the 1990 map and the aborted 2003 version are unreliable because they use too little data to show lasting trends, Avent contends. “The first time they got a cold data set and the second time they got a warm data set,” he says.

Avent points to Chicago, which lies on zone 5b on the 1990 map but shifted into zone 6 on the 2003 draft. “In 2004 Chicago had a -21º winter, “Avent said. “If Chicago gardeners had planted zone 6 plants, they would all have failed. When plants die customers give up gardening, and that’s the nursery business’s worst nightmare.”

Michael Dosmann, curator of living collections at Harvard University’s Arnold Arboretum in Boston and an advisor on the USDA revision, expects that the new map will be much more credible than either the AHS version or the current 1990 map. “I think we can have a lot of faith in it. The data set is very robust, and the modelers have done an amazing job,” says Dosmann. (Arnold Arboretum horticulturists produced early climate zone maps from the 1930s through the 1960s.) Like Avent, he predicts that the new map will show “some zone creep, but not the extremes in the Arbor Day map.”

* * *

Although it’s significant when hardiness zones shift, gardening experts emphasize that they are guidelines, not blueprints. “The map minimizes people’s odds of planting things that are likely to fail,” says Avent. For example, calla lilies are hardy in zones 8 to 10, so there’s not much point in planting them in Minneapolis, which lies in zone 4a..

harvest-350But there’s no guarantee that a plant rated hardy for zone 4 will actually thrive in Minnesota backyards. Every garden contains microclimates that influence what can grow there. Fragile plants may thrive in sunny protected corners, even if exposed areas of the same yard are ten degrees (i.e., a full climate zone) colder.

“To help plants succeed, you have to understand how they grow and site them carefully,” says Dosmann. “Plants can’t read the map, and they don’t always respect our zones.” Dosmann and his colleagues study the Arnold Arboretum’s microclimates intensively and try to work with them – for example, by planting less-hardy plants on warm south-facing slopes.

Once gardeners know what’s possible in their own flower beds, they can start to push the envelope. Boston lies in zone 6, but the Arboretum constantly tests species that are adapted to warmer areas, such as some hardy types of camellias. It does so not in response to climate change but as part of its mission to keep adding new plants to its collection.

“We always try to test the limits,” says Dosmann. “All gardeners are in zone denial.”

[SoNotHer]

500' is good; 1000' is better.

Do you know if you have springs? And did you say you have Bobcat or any digger?


I am 500 ft, however I also have a location scouted that is several 1000.

They seriously need to address the emissions problem worldwide. Do you have a link to the news?

I have a large creek that flows along the whole back side and a stopped up spring. It has rock steps that must be 100 plus years old where someone probably use to fetch water. It has dribbled and created a bog. It just needs to be cleaned out, dug some. I have a well but I'd like to get a hand pump.

[atomiczombie]

I put this in the breaking news thread as well. I knew inherently that the "worst case scenarios" were grossly underestimated.


http://news.yahoo.com/biggest-jump-ever-seen-global-warming-gases-183955211.html

WASHINGTON (AP) — The global output of heat-trapping carbon dioxide jumped by the biggest amount on record, the U.S. Department of Energy calculated, a sign of how feeble the world's efforts are at slowing man-made global warming.

The new figures for 2010 mean that levels of greenhouse gases are higher than the worst case scenario outlined by climate experts just four years ago.

"The more we talk about the need to control emissions, the more they are growing," said John Reilly, co-director of MIT's Joint Program on the Science and Policy of Global Change.

The world pumped about 564 million more tons (512 million metric tons) of carbon into the air in 2010 than it did in 2009. That's an increase of 6 percent. That amount of extra pollution eclipses the individual emissions of all but three countries — China, the United States and India, the world's top producers of greenhouse gases.

It is a "monster" increase that is unheard of, said Gregg Marland, a professor of geology at Appalachian State University, who has helped calculate Department of Energy figures in the past.

Extra pollution in China and the U.S. account for more than half the increase in emissions last year, Marland said.

"It's a big jump," said Tom Boden, director of the Energy Department's Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center at Oak Ridge National Lab. "From an emissions standpoint, the global financial crisis seems to be over."

Boden said that in 2010 people were traveling, and manufacturing was back up worldwide, spurring the use of fossil fuels, the chief contributor of man-made climate change.

India and China are huge users of coal. Burning coal is the biggest carbon source worldwide and emissions from that jumped nearly 8 percent in 2010.

"The good news is that these economies are growing rapidly so everyone ought to be for that, right?" Reilly said Thursday. "Broader economic improvements in poor countries has been bringing living improvements to people. Doing it with increasing reliance on coal is imperiling the world."

In 2007, when the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued its last large report on global warming, it used different scenarios for carbon dioxide pollution and said the rate of warming would be based on the rate of pollution. Boden said the latest figures put global emissions higher than the worst case projections from the climate panel. Those forecast global temperatures rising between 4 and 11 degrees Fahrenheit by the end of the century with the best estimate at 7.5 degrees.

Even though global warming skeptics have attacked the climate change panel as being too alarmist, scientists have generally found their predictions too conservative, Reilly said. He said his university worked on emissions scenarios, their likelihood, and what would happen. The IPCC's worst case scenario was only about in the middle of what MIT calculated are likely scenarios.

Chris Field of Stanford University, head of one of the IPCC's working groups, said the panel's emissions scenarios are intended to be more accurate in the long term and are less so in earlier years. He said the question now among scientists is whether the future is the panel's worst case scenario "or something more extreme."

"Really dismaying," Granger Morgan, head of the engineering and public policy department at Carnegie Mellon University, said of the new figures. "We are building up a horrible legacy for our children and grandchildren."

But Reilly and University of Victoria climate scientist Andrew Weaver found something good in recent emissions figures. The developed countries that ratified the 1997 Kyoto Protocol greenhouse gas limiting treaty have reduced their emissions overall since then and have achieved their goals of cutting emissions to about 8 percent below 1990 levels. The U.S. did not ratify the agreement.

In 1990, developed countries produced about 60 percent of the world's greenhouse gases, now it's probably less than 50 percent, Reilly said.

"We really need to get the developing world because if we don't, the problem is going to be running away from us," Weaver said. "And the problem is pretty close from running away from us."

I wish I could say that I'm surprised, but I'm totally not. *sigh*

[Sachita]

500' is good; 1000' is better.

Do you know if you have springs? And did you say you have Bobcat or any digger?

yes I have springs but no heavy equipment other then my vibrator. lol kidding

I can rent equipment

[SoNotHer]

Good one! I love it. That made me laugh...

You might want to create swale plumes, sillways and ponds beyond what you have. Anything to slow down the flow of water and retain it for harvesting:

UFeylOa_S4c

wdh4u1BUHzg&feature=relmfu

I worked a deal with the company that created a two-acre horse fence for my farm in Maryland. They really cut the price of the fence in exchange for me letting them keep their equipment on my land over a season. Someone might work a similar deal with you in exchange for digging out some ponds and swales.


yes I have springs but no heavy equipment other then my vibrator. lol kidding

I can rent equipment

[Okiebug61]

Red and I are fortunate and paid our house off 5 years ago. We live on an 1 1/2 acres and have plenty of room to garden. I work with a guy who sells meat and pork and have our freezer stocked for sometime.

We have bills but if worse came to worse I could make enough money to keep the utilities on and the other bills would have to wait. We have 2 cars paid off and have kept them maintained so knock on wood for that.

We are both about pitching in whenever we can. We have good neighbors and I am confident that we would all help each other if it got really bad. Of course we would open our home to any of our community, family and friends if that was needed.

I have often wondered what we could do on here to help those who are in need of things. Any ideas?

[Blade]

http://www.no-dig-vegetablegarden.com/no-till-gardening.html

This article is about no till gardening. At the bottom of the page is links to raised gardens, strawbale gardening, square foot gardening, and lasagna gardening.

[Sachita]

Red and I are fortunate and paid our house off 5 years ago. We live on an 1 1/2 acres and have plenty of room to garden. I work with a guy who sells meat and pork and have our freezer stocked for sometime.

We have bills but if worse came to worse I could make enough money to keep the utilities on and the other bills would have to wait. We have 2 cars paid off and have kept them maintained so knock on wood for that.

We are both about pitching in whenever we can. We have good neighbors and I am confident that we would all help each other if it got really bad. Of course we would open our home to any of our community, family and friends if that was needed.

I have often wondered what we could do on here to help those who are in need of things. Any ideas?

Since you have so much land why not organize a large shared garden project. My garden was not as large this year as it has been in the past, however any extra food, which there always is, I drop off at the food bank on my way to get Mia. Maybe there are a few people here in your area or other like minds that live close enough to share labor and resources. You can plan projects together, preserve together and come up with a good local plan to help some families in need.

Most food can be dried and preserved somehow. Just make sure you store properly and rotate and or mark dates.

[Sachita]

http://www.no-dig-vegetablegarden.com/no-till-gardening.html

This article is about no till gardening. At the bottom of the page is links to raised gardens, strawbale gardening, square foot gardening, and lasagna gardening.


Or just ask me. lol
I've done almost all of them. To date my fav is still raised beds because you can double them as cold frames. Strawbales very good IF you don't get a lot of seed that sprouts once you start watering. You also need to think about watering a lot or set up irrigation. Square foot gardening is good for small gardens, however a sustainable plan would mean growing more and preserving some.

[Sachita]

Here is a thread on Growing and Preserving. Lots of good info.

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1056


So lets start pulling it together.

You've got your tiny house and maybe even a tiny yard. You have part solar and part electric. What things do you think you'd need to run off solar? Let's say shit hit the fan, you had no money at all, therefore no electric. You want to reserve your solar panels and batteries for essentials. What are they?

You can catch water with a reservoir and depending on the time of year or tank it can have its own solar effect to heat. You can heat and cook with wood.

How about building a small glass green house attached to your tiny house? If you use poly you'll have to replace it in 4 years. Glass is forever. It can also help heat your house if done properly

[Okiebug61]

We had a straw bale garden this year but a drought hit us and we were not allowed any outside watering. The only thing that survived was the rosemary and the basil. I am hoping some friends will want to participate this next year.

[Sachita]

We had a straw bale garden this year but a drought hit us and we were not allowed any outside watering. The only thing that survived was the rosemary and the basil. I am hoping some friends will want to participate this next year.

yes you definitely don't want strawbale if water is an issue. In drought areas or where you have problems getting water you need to consider beds and adding soil mixes that retain moisture. It's not really organic but you can buy bulk bags of of a polymar like Terrasorb (not sure how to spell it). I use a ProMix that has peat and perlite, no dirt. But I also add lost of compost and then use straw, hay or dried leaves for mulch. Water is not a problem here.

But even still I had to water the bales everyday, sometimes twice depending how hot or dry. If I did it again it would be a drip irrigation with a fertilizer injector with compost tea.... constantly dripping and feeding the roots.

[dykeumentary]

*snipped*
I would recommend the same and the following if at all possible:

1) Plant nut and fruit trees and bushes.

2) Build a greenhouse.

3) Start cultivating alternative energy sources - a wood stove, a wood insert, a 150 watt (or greater) solar panel and battery bank, a small turbine, etc. And consider insulation and anything done for efficiency's sake as important.

4) Create cold frames (very simple to make and old windows are great for this too). In some zones, you can grown year round in cold frames.

5) Start developing some useful skills and tools - e.g., mounting turbines, fixing bikes, preserving food, amending soil, etc.

6) Start treating water like the precious thing it is. Buy a rain barrel. Buy a cistern. Start a wet garden.

7) Have a disaster plan (often said - more relevant than ever).

8) Get to know your neighbors.

9) Make, build or reinforce where you are living as though a fire, flood or strong wind will come through.

10) If you have leaves (or other compostables), heat and time, you have soil. Start "making" your own soil.

11) Stop buying into the idea that the solutions must be bought. You have, can and will do many things on your own that do not require endless trips to Wal-mart and Target. Grow your food, grow your community, grow your mind.

This is such a valuable list I reposted it in case people don't start reading the thread at the beginning (I seldom do!)

I am doing eldercare for my Mom these days, and for the rest of her life I suppose. Can someone recommend a good book on herbal medicine and natural healing? I think I should start growing my pharmacy now. I am trying to build a reference library. Where we have land there isn't good internet access. I already am not dependent on "calling the google" to find answers.

Thanks!

[SoNotHer]

Dr. Duke's The Green Pharmacy is the usually the first thing I turn to. I can post or PM some more if you need it.

http://www.greenpharmacy.com/

http://www.christopherpublications.com/images/Green%20Pharmacy%20James%20Duke.jpg

This is such a valuable list I reposted it in case people don't start reading the thread at the beginning (I seldom do!)

I am doing eldercare for my Mom these days, and for the rest of her life I suppose. Can someone recommend a good book on herbal medicine and natural healing? I think I should start growing my pharmacy now. I am trying to build a reference library. Where we have land there isn't good internet access. I already am not dependent on "calling the google" to find answers.

Thanks!

[Sachita]

This is such a valuable list I reposted it in case people don't start reading the thread at the beginning (I seldom do!)

I am doing eldercare for my Mom these days, and for the rest of her life I suppose. Can someone recommend a good book on herbal medicine and natural healing? I think I should start growing my pharmacy now. I am trying to build a reference library. Where we have land there isn't good internet access. I already am not dependent on "calling the google" to find answers.

Thanks!

I have a lot of experience with herbs and essential oils, however in the last few years i've learned so much about radical intensive healing. check out a book on Amazon and research Gerson Therapy. Try it, seriously. I take my mom fresh foods because she can't afford to buy food on her monthly piddlings SS gives her. She worked all her life, they used her money and now she gets shit. Anyhow, we are seeing amazing things. Its not always easy but it works.

As for herbs- anything plant based is good and the fresher the better. Micro nutrients provide intensive healing. You could never get this with dried herbs. You can juice and use lots of fresh herbs such as cilantro, parsley, basil, etc. These should be a regular part of your diet.

Have you thought about growing some of this indoors under simple plant lighting? Doesnt have to be expensive. You and your mom would great benefit from the effort.

[dykeumentary]

Thank you both for the recommendations!
I have to admit I'm more interested in building irrigation and grey water systems and greenhouses than in growing things, but I'm going to apply myself to this healing stuff.

Sachita, don't even draw me on about how seniors have gotten robbed of their qualitIty of life!! My mom started shucking oysters when she was 5 years old to help her family, then produced a flock of children who work hard, vote and volunteer. And for all that she's contributed over 70+ years, our lovely system sends her about $600 a month. Good thing she is used to living simply.

She's a good gardener and is great at preserving what she's grown. I hope Mom can get well again, she's a wonderful person. She still makes her own clothes. I used to be embarrassed about that. :(

[Sachita]

Thank you both for the recommendations!
I have to admit I'm more interested in building irrigation and grey water systems and greenhouses than in growing things, but I'm going to apply myself to this healing stuff.

Sachita, don't even draw me on about how seniors have gotten robbed of their qualitIty of life!! My mom started shucking oysters when she was 5 years old to help her family, then produced a flock of children who work hard, vote and volunteer. And for all that she's contributed over 70+ years, our lovely system sends her about $600 a month. Good thing she is used to living simply.

She's a good gardener and is great at preserving what she's grown. I hope Mom can get well again, she's a wonderful person. She still makes her own clothes. I used to be embarrassed about that. :(

don't you build a greenhouse to grow things? even if you buy dried herbs, sometimes I do, it's missing elements IMO that help heal. So I think if you're doing greenhouses, irrigation etc, pop a few seeds in there.

[dykeumentary]

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/dykeumentary/photo-4.jpg
My grocery store

[dykeumentary]

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/dykeumentary/photo-7.jpg

My gym.

I have to smile when my urban friends think that living in a rural area means living with "less"! If/when the current economy continues to fail, this life might look pretty good after all.

[Sachita]

posted this in tiny homes


this is affordable and they have a lease buy program


http://parkcabins.com/

offers financing on their homes. What I like about them is they are super easy to convert into solar.

[Sachita]

this is also kind of cool although not as pretty

http://www.earthbagbuilding.com/


also good info


Natural Building:
How to Build an Affordable Eco-Friendly Home (http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/articles/naturalbuilding.htm)

[Sachita]

Ok let's ramp things up here and put some action to these words...

Do you think we need a new thread for this or prefer to keep it here?

After discussing community and people coming together to live and work together in order to save money and survive a failing economy, how about posting what your needs might be?

If you have space in your home, land, etc and would like to offer it to another BF person post it along with the ideal person. post what you have to offer and the type of person that will fit well with you. Others may post ideas and tips but please for continuity when re posting a Want Ad always add WANT AD at the top of the post and increase the font size so that people scrolling looking for arrangements can quickly find ads.

If you are seeking to live with with someone else, find an arrangement the same thing.

Please feel free to share, discuss and ask others to join in on the discussion. I'll be posting my own ad soon.

[Sachita]

WANTED

This is a situation that offers free room, electric and internet. It also pays a stipend.

I am seeking a roommate/helper. this person will have their own room, access to fresh eggs, whatever we grow together. I am private and enjoy being a lone. You are the same and although its nice to have company from time to time you're comfortable with your own space.

I am seeking someone with vision. Someone who really loves animals and rural living. You are also committed in helping me grow and expand to offer "The Farm" to others of like mind to build a small community. You are not afraid of hard work.

* You must be able to work 6 hours a day, 5 days a week.
* You must be healthy, able to lift 80 pounds, bend and do physical work
* You do not drink or smoke excessively.
* You are detailed oriented and have no problem cleaning, consider yourself a neat person and a self starter.
* You can dig, do some gardening and have at least some experience with this.
* You are not afraid of dogs.
* You are ok with a background check
* You prefer living rural and enjoy being outdoors.

The work is a little of everything. Basically giving me more time to work on other projects to earn more income to expand and build. You literally become my right hand and assist me in achieving this goal-

"To build a sustainable small community for conscious people. The community has projects to earn income and educate others."

The work can involve-

*Keep house and all animal areas clean.
* Feed and walk dogs
* gardening
* errands
* some cooking (I cook most of the time)
* Washing dogs
* Keeping barns, sheds, etc clean and organized.

For the "right" person that goes on and beyond I would be thrilled to give this person space at the farm to build a small cabin or house. The "right person is motivated, articulate and able to see a long term vision and not just get by. If you want to simply just do your job and get by you shouldn't apply.

The right person would even start to see bonuses (after a year) as a result of the fruition of projects I am able to complete because of their help.

Please inbox me with as many details as possible. Please also include a contact phone number.

Thanks!

[SoNotHer]

Yes, this thread and any like it need to be recharged. The wake up calls are going to get louder because the denial is deep.

The IEA came out this week and essential said we have five years to reverse course before were extreme weather events become the norm (we're now averaging 10 a year, vs. 3.5 less than 20 years ago). We are closing in on 2 C (3.6 Fahrenheit), making the avoidance of disastrous scenarios must more difficult if not impossible.

So I am interested in how people are preparing to transition, and I will looking to form a community with a group of like-minded people.



Ok let's ramp things up here and put some action to these words...

Do you think we need a new thread for this or prefer to keep it here?

After discussing community and people coming together to live and work together in order to save money and survive a failing economy, how about posting what your needs might be?

If you have space in your home, land, etc and would like to offer it to another BF person post it along with the ideal person. post what you have to offer and the type of person that will fit well with you. Others may post ideas and tips but please for continuity when re posting a Want Ad always add WANT AD at the top of the post and increase the font size so that people scrolling looking for arrangements can quickly find ads.

If you are seeking to live with with someone else, find an arrangement the same thing.

Please feel free to share, discuss and ask others to join in on the discussion. I'll be posting my own ad soon.

[Sachita]

Yes, this thread and any like it need to be recharged. The wake up calls are going to get louder because the denial is deep.

The IEA came out this week and essential said we have five years to reverse course before were extreme weather events become the norm (we're now averaging 10 a year, vs. 3.5 less than 20 years ago). We are closing in on 2 C (3.6 Fahrenheit), making the avoidance of disastrous scenarios must more difficult if not impossible.

So I am interested in how people are preparing to transition, and I will looking to form a community with a group of like-minded people.

I read that and hopefully the global governments are banning together and instead of fighting each other coming up with a plan to save the planet.

I think now more then ever people need to create mini tribes and start thinking about the future being different. I sat on the fence a while but decided I need to try and just do it. I need a good person to help me. I can earn more income if i wasn't running around all over the place doing a million things. Income that can go towards expanding and setting the foundation to create a community/tribe. I have so many things in place. It would not take much to make it happen.

[Glenn]

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Underground:city.htm

[Sachita]

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Underground:city.htm

hey there, thank you for the link but in the future can you give a little description of what the link is so people know before they click it?

[SoNotHer]

I've looked at cave, bermed and underground homes as recently as this weekend. There's something about being in a 45 to 65 degrees range with a minimal amount of heating required. However, even underground homes and cities are vulnerable to seismic activity, an increased risk in the era of hydrofracking.

There are some bills that would give some of us who are already working toward efficiency and a lowered carbon foot print some hope. I grateful to see a consideration of energy efficiency as part of a home's value and as a factor in calculating a mortgage cap:

New Senate Bills Would Give Homeowners Credit for Energy Efficiency, Streamline Renewable Energy Siting

SustainableBusiness.com News

Two bills introduced in the Senate would support energy efficiency and renewable energy. One would make a home's energy costs part of the mortgage approval process and the other bill would streamline permits for siting renewable energy projects on public lands.

Homes Rewarded for Greater Energy Efficiency

Even though most people know they could save money if they made their home more energy efficient, the majority of people still aren't willing to pay the upfront costs. But what if your home got a higher (or lower) appraised value based on its efficiency? Residential energy efficiency would become a key part of the home buying and selling process in a bill introduced by Senators Michael Bennet (D-CO) and Johnny Isakson (R-GA), The Sensible Accounting to Value Energy (SAVE) Act (S.1737).

The SAVE Act would change current banking rules to include energy efficiency upgrades as part of the appraisal process that determines a home's value. A home that uses 30% less energy than the average would add over $10,000 to its appraised value, the Alliance to Save Energy estimates. This incentive would spur energy efficiency upgrades to existing and new homes, saving homeowners an estimated $1.1 billion in energy costs by 2020, according to the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE) and the Institute for Market Transformation.

Federal mortgage agencies (which account for 90% of loans)would be required to include energy efficiency in their calculation of mortgage caps, the size of the mortgage an applicant can qualify for. Since their utility bills would be lower in an efficient home, a buyer could qualify for a higher cap.

In evaluating whether applicants can afford to carry a mortgage (debt-to-income ratio), they would have to include energy costs in addtion to the usual criteria (principal, interest, property taxes and insurance).

Streamlined Permits for Renewable Energy on Public Lands

The Public Lands Renewable Energy Development Act, sponsored by Senators Jon Tester (D-MT) and Jim Risch (R-ID) would create a clear, straightforward development process that treats renewable energy similar to traditional sources of energy development like oil and gas. It would eliminate the red tape of acquiring permits, which takes about two years for solar and wind companies, and make it easier for companies to plan for the long term. The bill also ensures that funds generated by energy development benefits states, counties and various conservation efforts through royalty payments.

"A broad domestic energy supply is critical for America to grow its economy," says Risch. "This plan helps accomplish that by putting renewable energies under a similar framework as conventional energy sources. It also requires royalty payments that will benefit the counties and states where the projects occur."

The Act is supported by a broad array of organizations, including Taxpayers for Common Sense, the National Association of Counties, and the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership.

http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/23140

[Hollylane]

I've looked at cave, bermed and underground homes as recently as this weekend. There's something about being in a 45 to 65 degrees range with a minimal amount of heating required. However, even underground homes and cities are vulnerable to seismic activity, an increased risk in the era of hydrofracking.

There are some bills that would give some of us who are already working toward efficiency and a lowered carbon foot print some hope. I grateful to see a consideration of energy efficiency as part of a home's value and as a factor in calculating a mortgage cap:

New Senate Bills Would Give Homeowners Credit for Energy Efficiency, Streamline Renewable Energy Siting

SustainableBusiness.com News

Two bills introduced in the Senate would support energy efficiency and renewable energy. One would make a home's energy costs part of the mortgage approval process and the other bill would streamline permits for siting renewable energy projects on public lands.

Homes Rewarded for Greater Energy Efficiency

Even though most people know they could save money if they made their home more energy efficient, the majority of people still aren't willing to pay the upfront costs. But what if your home got a higher (or lower) appraised value based on its efficiency? Residential energy efficiency would become a key part of the home buying and selling process in a bill introduced by Senators Michael Bennet (D-CO) and Johnny Isakson (R-GA), The Sensible Accounting to Value Energy (SAVE) Act (S.1737).

The SAVE Act would change current banking rules to include energy efficiency upgrades as part of the appraisal process that determines a home's value. A home that uses 30% less energy than the average would add over $10,000 to its appraised value, the Alliance to Save Energy estimates. This incentive would spur energy efficiency upgrades to existing and new homes, saving homeowners an estimated $1.1 billion in energy costs by 2020, according to the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE) and the Institute for Market Transformation.

Federal mortgage agencies (which account for 90% of loans)would be required to include energy efficiency in their calculation of mortgage caps, the size of the mortgage an applicant can qualify for. Since their utility bills would be lower in an efficient home, a buyer could qualify for a higher cap.

In evaluating whether applicants can afford to carry a mortgage (debt-to-income ratio), they would have to include energy costs in addtion to the usual criteria (principal, interest, property taxes and insurance).

Streamlined Permits for Renewable Energy on Public Lands

The Public Lands Renewable Energy Development Act, sponsored by Senators Jon Tester (D-MT) and Jim Risch (R-ID) would create a clear, straightforward development process that treats renewable energy similar to traditional sources of energy development like oil and gas. It would eliminate the red tape of acquiring permits, which takes about two years for solar and wind companies, and make it easier for companies to plan for the long term. The bill also ensures that funds generated by energy development benefits states, counties and various conservation efforts through royalty payments.

"A broad domestic energy supply is critical for America to grow its economy," says Risch. "This plan helps accomplish that by putting renewable energies under a similar framework as conventional energy sources. It also requires royalty payments that will benefit the counties and states where the projects occur."

The Act is supported by a broad array of organizations, including Taxpayers for Common Sense, the National Association of Counties, and the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership.

http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/23140

Great post!

As an employee at a utility company, I'd like to see more renters taking the initiative to investigate before they rent. You can call your utility to check average usage for a potential rental.

If more renters sought out energy efficient rentals, there might be more incentive for slum lords to make some changes to their properties.

I talk to people every day that have electric bills $200 to $300 on average for a rental property. Because they didn't do the research, they are generally stuck living in this situation. When you have bills this high, some find that they have a hard time coming up with money to buy out of a lease, or even move when the lease is over.

As a home owner in Oregon, I have had Energy Trust of Oregon come out for a free home energy audit to help me make energy efficient changes. They also offered incentives for upgrades. I highly recommend having a home energy audit to all of my customers.

[SoNotHer]

Absolutely right. The energy audit is important, and people might be able to save their homes or rentals if they are made more energy efficient.

I'm grateful to hear that there's some movement to recognize and appraise a property's value based on its energy use and efficiency.

Great post!

As an employee at a utility company, I'd like to see more renters taking the initiative to investigate before they rent. You can call your utility to check average usage for a potential rental.

If more renters sought out energy efficient rentals, there might be more incentive for slum lords to make some changes to their properties.

I talk to people every day that have electric bills $200 to $300 on average for a rental property. Because they didn't do the research, they are generally stuck living in this situation. When you have bills this high, some find that they have a hard time coming up with money to buy out of a lease, or even move when the lease is over.

As a home owner in Oregon, I have had Energy Trust of Oregon come out for a free home energy audit to help me make energy efficient changes. They also offered incentives for upgrades. I highly recommend having a home energy audit to all of my customers.

[Sachita]

Great post!

As an employee at a utility company, I'd like to see more renters taking the initiative to investigate before they rent. You can call your utility to check average usage for a potential rental.

If more renters sought out energy efficient rentals, there might be more incentive for slum lords to make some changes to their properties.

I talk to people every day that have electric bills $200 to $300 on average for a rental property. Because they didn't do the research, they are generally stuck living in this situation. When you have bills this high, some find that they have a hard time coming up with money to buy out of a lease, or even move when the lease is over.

As a home owner in Oregon, I have had Energy Trust of Oregon come out for a free home energy audit to help me make energy efficient changes. They also offered incentives for upgrades. I highly recommend having a home energy audit to all of my customers.


I'll never forget moving to Rochester NY and renting a cute off season house on the lake. Being a florida girl I had no idea what heat cost were. It blew my mind and my budget. I actually had to break the lease or freeze.

My electric bills here are easily 300.00 a month and in winter higher. But I also operate the dog boarding business and I really work at keeping my electric bill down. I honestly don't know how some families manage.

Its a great idea tho to call the power companies and find out what programs are available to you even if you rent.

[Sachita]

On the park cabins- for anyone interested, (I shared the link above) these range from 20K up to 60K but they include appliances. The interesting thing is the financing because you can lease buy one with several different options including deferred payments to help you get well, septic and power in.

For me, a business owner, it leasing with a 1.00 at the end is very affordable because I can write it off. I'm not sure for the typical homeowner but its still very affordable and from what I'm told pretty easy to get financing.

Some people use them completely off grid because they are self contained meaning they have a sewer holding tank (ewwww not me) and have a honey truck come out and empty them. They use a water catch system and operate off solar power.

[Sachita]

bump

now that the holidays are over I am hoping we can inspire others to become proactive in change. I am going to attempt to start a local group in my area of people interested in health and organics. Maybe start a large garden, buy bulk, rent a large kitchen to prepare meals ahead together. Save money, save time, get healthy.

My search for finding people to live on the farm has not been easy. I had a few good prospects that changed their mind last minute. So I'm still plugging forward focusing on money making efforts to keep building. I'd love to find someone who was handy and could build things. That would make this so much easier. :)

[Sachita]

I wanted to share this. Its such a powerful video for me:

http://www.theeconomicsofhappiness.org/helena-on-tedx

Small businesses locally producing and purchasing basic needs help create healthier communities. Farmers markets and small businesses revitalize the economy sucked dry by globalization. Let's become more aware of how our resources and energies can be efficiently used to increase healthy connections to the natural world.

On another note I have been visualizing and thinking about ways I an turn the farm into a small community of like minds. I have no doubt that not only could it be a wonderful place to live, a true sustainable queer commune but can also be profitable. I am still a lone trying to do this but hoping the right people step forward.

[SoNotHer]

"Sucked dry" is right. One of my students recently showed me a text called The Atlas of the Real World: Mapping the Way We Live. It's fascinating and recommended, especially if you want to know truly how quickly we are running through the earth's "resources."

The first page I turned to in it revealed the rate of aquifer recharge throughout the world, the best being Costa Rica at 76% or there about and the worst being Bahrain at 0%. In other words, for every gallon of ground water (the source of most drinking water) Costa Rica uses, 3/4 of that gallon is replaced through rain water recharging an aquifer (subterranean or ground water). In Bahrain, nothing is recharged or replaced.

And what does the Atlas identify as the average rate of aquifer recharge in the United States? Try 16%. So imagine taking a dollar out of your savings account and putting 16 cents in to replace it. Eventually, and probably sooner than later, you have nothing.

Industrial agriculture is having a tremendous effect on the drawn down of aquifers, and almost no one is talking about this. Local farms and biodynamic, sustainable and permaculture systems that use rain cachment systems are the way to go.

http://cache0.bookdepository.com/assets/images/book/medium/9780/5002/9780500288535.jpg


I wanted to share this. Its such a powerful video for me:

http://www.theeconomicsofhappiness.org/helena-on-tedx

Small businesses locally producing and purchasing basic needs help create healthier communities. Farmers markets and small businesses revitalize the economy sucked dry by globalization. Let's become more aware of how our resources and energies can be efficiently used to increase healthy connections to the natural world.

On another note I have been visualizing and thinking about ways I an turn the farm into a small community of like minds. I have no doubt that not only could it be a wonderful place to live, a true sustainable queer commune but can also be profitable. I am still a lone trying to do this but hoping the right people step forward.

[Sachita]

Here is what needs to happen for that to take place...

the same movement you see with Occupy, people coming together not sitting around but gathering in fields, planting and working crops. 1000's of people taking control and working with local farmers. That is as proactive as it gets.

[Sachita]

This is really a great article, looks like an awesome book:

Could there ever be an alternative stock exchange dedicated to slow, small and local? Could a million American families get their food from CSAs? What if you had to invest 50 percent of your assets within 50 miles of where you live? Such questions — at the heart of “Inquiries into the Nature of Slow Money” — represent the first steps on our path to a new economy.

Read more: http://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-community/slow-money-ze0z10zhir.aspx#ixzz1hJGXUF6N


I had a few people come out who were interested in partnering with me on growing something and building a sustainable farm. One very qualified person decided that being a vegetarian they could not live somewhere that raised hens for meat or even ate eggs. Although I don't eat meat everyday, I still do and I don't want to limit myself from raising meat for for myself and especially one day my dogs. The quality of all dog foods really scares me.

The second person stayed for 2 days, helped out but was more interested in sitting around talking, hanging out and picking my brain. I don't mind company but I'm really busy and need people that are ok with being on their own.

[Sachita]

another great article

How to Save a Million Dollars With a Sustainable Lifestyle

Read more: http://www.motherearthnews.com/healthy-people-healthy-planet/sustainable-lifestyle-zb0z1112zrog.aspx#ixzz1hMVk504A

perhaps we can share some of these tips? I have been helping Mia's mother with a budget. She's always broke and I buy a large part of their food, cook it to insure they eat mostly organic and safe. As we lay things out you can clearly see how things add up

[Glenn]

Folks and All; Although the unseasonably warm weather has been breaking records all over, now is the time to prepare for the cold snap. I cannot stress enough how important it is to read your own gas and electric meters if you rent or own a house.. Just today, I received an unestimated electric bill that was estimated wrong by the company. I know they never came here, because my meter is inside. So how could I get two unestimated electric bills in a row for the exact same amount? Also your cars... Folks, Try to check the antifreeze or the cold could blow out plugs and that will cost you some serious money.

[Sachita]

wow we just have so many forums that all have the same concerns.

http://www.filmsforaction.org/Watch/Coming_Home_The_Reinvention_of_Localized_Economies/

You have to watch this film. I had not heard of this concept before but it has inspired me! I have all kinds of shit going through my head. If one community can do this then why can all of them?

If you;re into restoring local economy you must see this.

[Sachita]

and just as a quick update we have two people out on the farm now helping to take this farm project to the next level. Within the next few weeks we'll plan, rent a tractor and start preparing the pastures for growing. We will develop a plan to create food and more living space.

If we build it they will come. lol

Our goal is to become a fully sustainable queer commune/community on 30 acres.

Stay tune.

[Sachita]

anyone that is in the general area that would like to come out and help on the weekends let me know. There will be hard work but also some good food and company. You'll need to bring a tent tho. There is some work now but most of the land works starts in April. If its chilly at night there is some electric we can run for heating blankets and such. We hope to build an area for everyone to hang out soon as well as a bathroom and hot showers.
If you have skills, great! If you don't, don't worry. Just bring a good attitude and strong back!

BTW we are talking about documenting this as a documentary and helpful guide.

[Glenn]

Sachita and Folks; The Garden of Findhorn has really grown since I read the book "The Garden of Findhorn" back in the seventies. Three people were spiritually guided to turn a garbage dump into a garden where they grew forty pound cabbages, and other huge plants and veggies guided by the Nature Spirits there. They lived in old trailers, and it was amazing and miraculous how they were provided with everything they needed. Wow.. It amazes me to read how they have expanded and have some eco community building information on their site to give ideas to others. www.findhorn.org

[Sachita]

Sachita and Folks; The Garden of Findhorn has really grown since I read the book "The Garden of Findhorn" back in the seventies. Three people were spiritually guided to turn a garbage dump into a garden where they grew forty pound cabbages, and other huge plants and veggies guided by the Nature Spirits there. They lived in old trailers, and it was amazing and miraculous how they were provided with everything they needed. Wow.. It amazes me to read how they have expanded and have some eco community building information on their site to give ideas to others. www.findhorn.org


Thats very cool! Thanks!

[Sachita]

Morgan has arrived from CA to help on the farm. Big things coming!

[uniquetobeme]

i am extremely concerned about the economy and my families well being. I am a single mom with 3 kids, and my son's boyfriend lives with us also. I went through a break up in 2009 that left me in financial ruin and I am also making much less money than I used to earn.
I am barely scraping by, yet I know that I have it better than a lot of people.
I live in a suburban area and I don't have a yard for a garden, but I plan to use containers this spring to grow food.
I keep saying if I ever win the lottery I want to buy land and build a self sustained farm that is organic and humane to animals. (not that owning livestock can ever be humane, but as humane as possible). But, I don't know the first thing about farming.
I find it so sad that we are being poisoned by the crap that is manufactured andante that animals are treated so harshly.
I would love to come out some weekends and help, when it warms up a bit...that is if I can afford the gas. I've heard it is supposed to go way up...which means the price of food is going to go up even higher.
My mom owns a large plot of land in West Virginia and many times, lately, I have contemplated moving there and seeing if I could talk them into starting an organic farm.
I don't think a lot of people are seeing the writing on the wall. Most of America is asleep at the wheel. There are lots of web sites on emergency preparedness and survival training. My 14 year old is constantly watching the videos. he has a bug out bag that has a few essentials inside. We also have a pantry with extra water and flood, but I don't think we could survive for more than a week. Plus, society in America has become so much more violent. If people are hungry, they will fight and kill for the food. Not all, but there will be some who would. I haven't read all the thread, so I apologize for redundancy. The reality that things are going to get worse economically for the middle and lower class is a real possibility, if not inevetable. I am learning to appreciate the little things in life and be grateful for what I do have, but I can't say that I'm not really scared. Things can get really crazy in the world really fast and those that aren't prepared are going to have a really hard time.
I am grateful for this thread because hopefully some people will see it and take measures before it is too late.
Also, I use freecycle to get things for free (and to give things away) and I also use couponmom.com for saving on groceries when I have time. Which, unfortunately isn't often. ( hopefully there aren't too many typos...I did this from my phone)

[Sachita]

i am extremely concerned about the economy and my families well being. I am a single mom with 3 kids, and my son's boyfriend lives with us also. I went through a break up in 2009 that left me in financial ruin and I am also making much less money than I used to earn.
I am barely scraping by, yet I know that I have it better than a lot of people.
I live in a suburban area and I don't have a yard for a garden, but I plan to use containers this spring to grow food.
I keep saying if I ever win the lottery I want to buy land and build a self sustained farm that is organic and humane to animals. (not that owning livestock can ever be humane, but as humane as possible). But, I don't know the first thing about farming.
I find it so sad that we are being poisoned by the crap that is manufactured andante that animals are treated so harshly.
I would love to come out some weekends and help, when it warms up a bit...that is if I can afford the gas. I've heard it is supposed to go way up...which means the price of food is going to go up even higher.
My mom owns a large plot of land in West Virginia and many times, lately, I have contemplated moving there and seeing if I could talk them into starting an organic farm.
I don't think a lot of people are seeing the writing on the wall. Most of America is asleep at the wheel. There are lots of web sites on emergency preparedness and survival training. My 14 year old is constantly watching the videos. he has a bug out bag that has a few essentials inside. We also have a pantry with extra water and flood, but I don't think we could survive for more than a week. Plus, society in America has become so much more violent. If people are hungry, they will fight and kill for the food. Not all, but there will be some who would. I haven't read all the thread, so I apologize for redundancy. The reality that things are going to get worse economically for the middle and lower class is a real possibility, if not inevetable. I am learning to appreciate the little things in life and be grateful for what I do have, but I can't say that I'm not really scared. Things can get really crazy in the world really fast and those that aren't prepared are going to have a really hard time.
I am grateful for this thread because hopefully some people will see it and take measures before it is too late.
Also, I use freecycle to get things for free (and to give things away) and I also use couponmom.com for saving on groceries when I have time. Which, unfortunately isn't often. ( hopefully there aren't too many typos...I did this from my phone)

Is moving to your mom's land an option? If it is, that sounds like a good plan especially if you have strong kids willing to help you. Will it be easy? Nope, it won't but it will get easier and it will be worth it. If you can earn some kind of income there that seems like your best option. Start a garden, till the soil, grow extra things like tomatoes, greens, almost anything you can sell on the side of the road. There is most likely a horse farm close around there that will give you manure. have your boys till it into the soil good. In fact see if the horse stable will let them work a few hours a week for money and or to trade for the use of a tiller. I had a guy that lived down the street, very close that I use to trade with. He would bring his tractor and tiller and till for me. He sold his tractor. Now I have to rent one. But if there is a farmer close I bet he/she could use an extra hand and will trade with you. Gotta work hard tho.

If you need seeds I'll send you some. If you need laying hens you gotta come get them. But on craigslist you can probably buy chicks pretty cheap in the spring.

I feel safer on land then I would in the city. each year I put in more fruit bushes and trees. My hope is to get a shower and potty built by the barn so people can at least camp out and help develop the land.

[uniquetobeme]

I did buy a little herb garden today :-). I don't know much about farming. I would need to look into it some more. I'd want to find out how to become certified organic. I'd also like to build some cabins and have a little writers retreat or something like that. This particular area could use a decent cultural type center. There is not much to do around there. I would like to open up a used/new bookstore and maybe a coffee shop or bar and have theme nights and live music, maybe a thrift store too. (couldnt do the shop on my mom's land...there is a river and the only way to get to the propery is a long walk over the swinging bridge or to drive a vehicle through the shallow part of the water. The best part of moving is most of my family is there and it would be nice to be near my family. It is also very isolated...I probably wouldn't have many friends and it is highly unlikely that I'd find anyone that I could date. LOL there are probably only 2 lesbians in the entire town! LOL, if that many :-). I'd love to have a writers resort or a couples retreat on the property. I don't think there are any horse farms, but my aunt and uncle own about 3 horses. I just don't know how I would survive until I started to make money and I'm also worried about health insurance. I'll give it more thought and talk with my mom more about it. it would be a big move, but I'd have lots of help, love and support from my family. (again typing from my phone...my cat destroyed my router by knocking over a glass of water onto it!)

[uniquetobeme]

I talked to my mom last night and she is going to talk to her husband and then I'm going to do a bit more research. It sounds like a good idea in theory. Probably, if something doesn't give here within a year, I will move to WVA. In the meantime, I will do as much research as I can :-)
The thought of growing a real watermelon from non-genetically modified seeds is almost enough to motivate me to make such a change right away! Haven't had a good watermelon since I was a kid!

[Sachita]

I talked to my mom last night and she is going to talk to her husband and then I'm going to do a bit more research. It sounds like a good idea in theory. Probably, if something doesn't give here within a year, I will move to WVA. In the meantime, I will do as much research as I can :-)
The thought of growing a real watermelon from non-genetically modified seeds is almost enough to motivate me to make such a change right away! Haven't had a good watermelon since I was a kid!

I am sorry it took me so long to respond. I've been very busy.

What exactly are you waiting to see happen? I feel the best course of action, especially if you have kids, is to move towards safety and sustainability. I do know you need income. Is it possible for you to get some kind of job where your mom is?

Sometimes it takes a leap of faith and learning as you go. You're lucky that you have some little helpers. Pull your family together, make a plan and start moving in that direction. If you'd like to come down some weekends and help I'm sure you'll learn a lot and meet some great people.

[uniquetobeme]

I'm waiting for my son to graduate. Unfortunately, the last 5 years have been crazy in my world and my sons had to change schools 4 times. (I went through a really bad breakup in 2009 that really impacted our lives) so I don't want to move him another time.
The other issue is my 14 year has some medical problems that need to be resolved before I move and I found out he has to have 2 more surgeries :-(.
I am also thinking about going back to school to be a social worker.
I am giving it serious consideration, but I can't move just yet. My eldest son's boyfriend (he is 18) lives with us and he also has another year until he graduates.
I'm certainly keeping the idea in my head as a possibility. I wish I had a crystal ball to see what the best choices were, but I guess that would take the fun out of life. :-).
I would like to know more about some of the struggles people have had setting up a farm, and also about issues such as health insurance and things like that.
I was thinking, if I got a degree in Education, I could work at a school in the area and do farming in the summer.
Life is so full of complicated decisions. I know I long for a more simple life :-)
Thank you all for your support and advice :-)

[Sachita]

I'm waiting for my son to graduate. Unfortunately, the last 5 years have been crazy in my world and my sons had to change schools 4 times. (I went through a really bad breakup in 2009 that really impacted our lives) so I don't want to move him another time.
The other issue is my 14 year has some medical problems that need to be resolved before I move and I found out he has to have 2 more surgeries :-(.
I am also thinking about going back to school to be a social worker.
I am giving it serious consideration, but I can't move just yet. My eldest son's boyfriend (he is 18) lives with us and he also has another year until he graduates.
I'm certainly keeping the idea in my head as a possibility. I wish I had a crystal ball to see what the best choices were, but I guess that would take the fun out of life. :-).
I would like to know more about some of the struggles people have had setting up a farm, and also about issues such as health insurance and things like that.
I was thinking, if I got a degree in Education, I could work at a school in the area and do farming in the summer.
Life is so full of complicated decisions. I know I long for a more simple life :-)
Thank you all for your support and advice :-)

I have a thread here called Sachita Collective where we will document the progress at the farm. Or you can also subscribe to www.sachitacollective.com there is a place to add your email on the left and it will send you an email each time we post to the blog.

A site that I find very helpful is http://rodaleinstitute.org/ there is lots of valuable articles, market studies, etc. Decide on a clear plan based on your ability. If you have a few teenage son's grab your tent and bring their butts down here to help us! lol You'll learn a lot.

Once we get ramped up our goal is to not only operate a successful organic farm business for the farm family but to teach other women to start up and operate the same. Hopefully we'll have some clear grant and loan options. Anyhow, much of this will be discussed in the thread. If you and your boys decide to come down let me know. I can help you with gas and feed you while you are here. We really could use some strong backs to clean up the greenhouse area and start tilling very soon.

[uniquetobeme]

I will plan on coming for a weekend sometime between April and late June. We can plan a specific date as it gets closer. It sounds like it will be hard work, but great fun and a good chance to see how it works for me before jumping in with both feet and moving to WVA. My 17 year old is a football player, so I enlist his help for moving heavy things :-) My 14 year old wants to try "bugging out" and see how we do. This would be a great opportunity for him to get his wish :-)

For some reason, I don't know why, whenever I think about starting a farm, or farm life and communal type living, Nathaniel Hawthorne's book, The Blithedale Romance, comes to mind. It was a strange book...interesting, but strange. LOL The main character, Miles Coverdale, was a strange man. Anyway, back to the topic...

I am wondering what I need to be prepared to bring. Do you have restroom facilities and a shower? If not, I'm thinking I will see if I can find portable ones. When I used to visit my Grandma's (the place I'm thinking of moving to) she had an outhouse, a well outside of the house to pump water, and wood stoves...They did have electricity, but that was it. I remember how much I loved watching the light flicker on the walls at night and sleeping with 10 quilts at night because it was so cold in the winter :-)

I do believe in fate, and I think life will lead me in the right direction. It's kind of funny, because I said that if I won the lottery I would want to start my own organic farm, and I haven't won the lottery, but the opportunity to start a farm at my Mom's house can be a reality. I just wish I had more "cushion" to get started :-) (Still waiting on the lottery part.. LOL)

[aishah]

I honestly don't know. I think there are so many things that need to happen to lift up the people in poverty in the US. A lot of those things are being addressed by the Occupy movement right now. I think it would be great if we all had some option to "live off the grid" so to speak. I am not the best at being able to answer your question because I happen to be someone with very little money myself.

I live with my folks and I am on disability. They live in a planned community where the home owners association tells you what you can and can't do with your tiny front and back yards. Anything you do to your home, including what color you paint it, is dictated by the HOA here. And my folks are retired and don't have the physical ability to plant anything. They pay people to mow their lawn every week. I have agoraphobia so going out of the house isn't exactly easy for me. I don't mind trying to fix things or putting them together as long as I am in the house.

I think all the ideas put forth in this thread are great. I just don't know how people without much in the way of resources (such as moi) would be able to put them into practice. Does that somehow offend you dykeumentary?

i feel this so much.

i love talking about sustainability, survival, etc. but i struggle with it a lot when working with sustainability organizers because frequently the solutions presented are NOT realistic for elders and disabled people especially, but also poor people and others. yes, in some urban areas now, if you are poor you can work on a community farm - IF you are able bodied. the truth is, most disabled people are going to be fucked when shit hits the fan because of our society's rampant individualist, independence/dependence model of dealing with disability. and there is still a LOT of 'survival of the fittest,' 'we'd be better off without the cripples' sentiment in the u.s. generally speaking. there's also a huge disconnect (in my experience) between folks who live off the grid due to severe mcs and folks who live off the grid for sustainability reasons, but there is so much in common between those two groups. i also feel like those of us who are working on building interdependent community-built access could probably focus more on working sustainably.. a lot of the work i've been doing over the last several months has dealt with introducing disability justice principles into permaculture/holistic health/sustainable living communities and trying to bridge the gaps between us. i'm not sure what the right answer is yet. but i think it's important to include disability in these conversations.

to answer the original question of the thread...

People across the world are concerned with the economic systems, food safety and how they might survive a natural catastrophic event. I know that many of you are on fixed incomes, perhaps SS and government programs that help subsidize your income. In the event there was a shut down or program cuts, how would it effect you and what is your back-up plan?

this is actually why i started doing sex work. if our entire society were to collapse or there were some kind of natural disaster it wouldn't be a viable option for me, but being a disabled person who doesn't have access to benefits and having lost my job during the recession, it is the best option for me right now. so sex work has always been my backup plan, i suppose.

i'm surprised no one's mentioned octavia butler yet...her book 'parable of the sower' is one of my favorites and was my first real introduction to sustainability/survivalist thinking.

[Sachita]

i feel this so much.

i love talking about sustainability, survival, etc. but i struggle with it a lot when working with sustainability organizers because frequently the solutions presented are NOT realistic for elders and disabled people especially, but also poor people and others. yes, in some urban areas now, if you are poor you can work on a community farm - IF you are able bodied. the truth is, most disabled people are going to be fucked when shit hits the fan because of our society's rampant individualist, independence/dependence model of dealing with disability. and there is still a LOT of 'survival of the fittest,' 'we'd be better off without the cripples' sentiment in the u.s. generally speaking. there's also a huge disconnect (in my experience) between folks who live off the grid due to severe mcs and folks who live off the grid for sustainability reasons, but there is so much in common between those two groups. i also feel like those of us who are working on building interdependent community-built access could probably focus more on working sustainably.. a lot of the work i've been doing over the last several months has dealt with introducing disability justice principles into permaculture/holistic health/sustainable living communities and trying to bridge the gaps between us. i'm not sure what the right answer is yet. but i think it's important to include disability in these conversations.

to answer the original question of the thread...



this is actually why i started doing sex work. if our entire society were to collapse or there were some kind of natural disaster it wouldn't be a viable option for me, but being a disabled person who doesn't have access to benefits and having lost my job during the recession, it is the best option for me right now. so sex work has always been my backup plan, i suppose.

i'm surprised no one's mentioned octavia butler yet...her book 'parable of the sower' is one of my favorites and was my first real introduction to sustainability/survivalist thinking.

I really want to address this but not sure how. I can talk about our challenges in bringing together a sustainable farm community. Everyone needs to do "something" in order for it to work. Exactly what that "something" is depends on the individual and needs of the community. Even if there are programs for each community to assist people with disabilities or elderly there obviously has to be a balance because you can't have a village of 30 disabled people and 5 able workers. The other thing that would concern me is what would define disability. I see able bodied people that could do "something" and not doing anything.

It doesn't cost money to make movement. I honestly get sick of the word "I can't" and hear too much of it. As long as we keep convincing ourselves that is the pattern we'll create. Learn something, teach, do anything but sit there or spend countless hours online complaining about what you don't have. This is not directed at you BTW, but my mindset. I am impressed by your gumption and honesty. I see nothing wrong with sex work if it doesnt eat your power. If you're ok with it and can use it as an effective tool then by all means! You go girl! But if you strive to step up then do it. You seem very articulate and intelligent. I bet you have a lot to offer without using your back. :)

But I'm not going to get caught up in the PC of it all. I do understand that they must be addressed and its everyone's responsibly.

[Sachita]

I really wish that you hadn't written this--It's (your reasoning is) startlingly ugly and dismissive to someone that is apparently, an ally.

I didn't mean in reference to sex work. Not at all. I meant physically work. But I should have worded it differently. Obviously I have nothing against sex work since I was a professional dominatrix for quite a number of years and have done phone sex work. My comment wasn't addressing her sex work.

[Sachita]

aishah my apologies please.

I meant to say that you seem like someone that could help teach others. If someone is disabled and able to articulate the way that you do and some of the things you are passionate about, it seems you would be a great asset to teach people.

I know a woman right now that is in a wheel chair and has lost use of one whole side of her body. She works for an organization I am networking with as a record keeper and also provides the organization with countless research. She was so passionate about food safety that she taught herself these skills, how she could be valuable and then offered her services free for a chance to prove what she could do. Needless to say, years later she is an employee and very proactive for the cause.

[aishah]

i do teach people, i just don't get paid for it. i also have many other skills and have worked a number of other jobs, they just don't involve lifting more than 5 lbs or standing up for more than 5 minutes. or having decent balance, a great memory, the ability to focus for long periods of time, etc. etc. ;)

i find it frustrating when people assume i'm 'high functioning' because i am so 'articulate' because there is this underlying value judgment that goes with it - i am good and those other disabled people are bad. that's really not okay. people do this a lot with me in real life because i don't 'look disabled.' (i have cerebral palsy, spinal cord injuries, osteoarthritis, and fibromyalgia.) it's not about being 'pc,' it's about - if we are going to talk about futurism, if we are going to talk abut survival in the future, i believe we have to talk about a future that includes everyone. not just able-bodied or 'high functioning' (vomit) disabled people. that's all i'm saying. and having those conversations is also part of the work of building a society that is actually inclusive of everyone in the present, too (which we don't have).

I really want to address this but not sure how. I can talk about our challenges in bringing together a sustainable farm community. Everyone needs to do "something" in order for it to work. Exactly what that "something" is depends on the individual and needs of the community. Even if there are programs for each community to assist people with disabilities or elderly there obviously has to be a balance because you can't have a village of 30 disabled people and 5 able workers. The other thing that would concern me is what would define disability. I see able bodied people that could do "something" and not doing anything.

imho the method of creating 'assistance programs' that we have now is not a sustainable, interdependent way of dealing with disability. i also find it helpful to think of disability as a spectrum rather than a discrete category. the fact is, everyone has access needs - the difference between you and me is society is set up to deal with yours and not mine. in order for everyone - including disabled folks usually labeled 'low functioning' - to be included, their access needs would have to be taken into account. but that really isn't that difficult, to be honest. i do non-profit work in a community of disabled people with a huge variety of disabilities and access needs, and we get shit done. we just have patience and understanding for one another, and we don't expect each other to interact or do everything the exact same way. for example, there's a man who lives downtown in the city where i live and he is considered 'low-functioning' because he has a lot of difficulty with adls (adult daily living skills) due to his developmental disability. he would not be able to hold a job even using voc rehab services because most jobs are not willing to work with his access needs. but he does a billion different odd jobs for the stores downtown and the employees there take care of him and work with his access needs (having short, defined tasks - doing one task before being told to do the next one rather than working down a list - that sort of thing).

in my experience, the work of building supportive community among people with disabilities has a lot to do with not assuming that everyone does everything the same way and with being flexible and supportive in that way.

[Sachita]

i do teach people, i just don't get paid for it. i also have many other skills and have worked a number of other jobs, they just don't involve lifting more than 5 lbs or standing up for more than 5 minutes. or having decent balance, a great memory, the ability to focus for long periods of time, etc. etc. ;)

it's not about being 'pc,' it's about - if we are going to talk about futurism, if we are going to talk abut survival in the future, i believe we have to talk about a future that includes everyone. not just able-bodied or 'high functioning' (vomit) disabled people. that's all i'm saying. and having those conversations is also part of the work of building a society that is actually inclusive of everyone in the present, too (which we don't have).

I agree. So let's talk. How do you see it in your minds eye?

[aishah]

sorry, i was just editing while you were writing ;) i hope that answers the question to some extent.

imho the method of creating 'assistance programs' that we have now is not a sustainable, interdependent way of dealing with disability. i also find it helpful to think of disability as a spectrum rather than a discrete category. the fact is, everyone has access needs - the difference between you and me is society is set up to deal with yours and not mine. in order for everyone - including disabled folks usually labeled 'low functioning' - to be included, their access needs would have to be taken into account. but that really isn't that difficult, to be honest. i do non-profit work in a community of disabled people with a huge variety of disabilities and access needs, and we get shit done. we just have patience and understanding for one another, and we don't expect each other to interact or do everything the exact same way. for example, there's a man who lives downtown in the city where i live and he is considered 'low-functioning' because he has a lot of difficulty with adls (adult daily living skills) due to his developmental disability. he would not be able to hold a job even using voc rehab services because most jobs are not willing to work with his access needs. but he does a billion different odd jobs for the stores downtown and the employees there take care of him and work with his access needs (having short, defined tasks - doing one task before being told to do the next one rather than working down a list - that sort of thing).

in my experience, the work of building supportive community among people with disabilities has a lot to do with not assuming that everyone does everything the same way and with being flexible and supportive in that way.

[Glenn]

Folks; This also seems to me to be a nice place to visit or hunker down. Over 3-400 acres of lesbian-owned land for 25,000 per two acre plots. http//:alapine.org/

[Sachita]

Folks; This also seems to me to be a nice place to visit or hunker down. Over 3-400 acres of lesbian-owned land for 25,000 per two acre plots. http//:alapine.org/

I think there is a short documentary about them or some type of news coverage. 25,000.00 is still a lot for people today. There seems to be a lot of communities springing up around the US, some all women, some mixed. Long term I will most likely turn Sachita Collective into a land trust so it can continue and provide homes for all types of people.

Actually now that I think about it I did email and make contact with these women right after I bought the farm. We exchanged a few ideas and I asked them how they got started.

For many years there was a woman who published a guide of all the available women's land. She had an ad in the Lesbian Connection.

[Sachita]

This is a very interesting article about how a household of 7 people live together on only 21.00 a day.

http://www.verdant.net/sharedhousing.htm

[Sachita]

This is a very interesting article about how a household of 7 people live together on only 21.00 a day.

http://www.verdant.net/sharedhousing.htm


As you read it you'll see that their mortgage is over 2000.00 a month! Can you imagine in other parts of the country where its cheaper?

I know a couple that was laid off from huge companies (IBM-HP) earning over 100K a year. When they were laid off they could no longer afford the huge mortgages and car payments they had. They were forced to foreclose on their homes. They sat down and came up with a great plan and its working. In fact they are in NC, just south of me. Both couples walked away from their homes. They rented a house in the country with a few acres of land. Nothing fancy. They kept ONE car and a truck. Three of them went to work and one stayed home. The jobs they were able to get were nothing close to what they were use to but they easily paid their overhead and two of them work part time. The rest of the time they car pool each other, grow all of their own food and take some to the market. They bought a big oven and one of them bakes bread and other baked goods bringing in a few hundred a week just from those sales.

No one is killing themselves and they will all tell you that they are happier then they have ever been. They are healthier, more at peace and relationships stronger.

[aishah]

yeah, mortgages in oakland are ridiculous. unfortunately that area is still one of the best places to find other radical organizers, sustainability oriented folks, etc. for shared housing - i have lots of friends who live in community living situations out there, especially disabled folks. one of the reasons i love kansas is because of the low cost of living here. when i first moved out here people were trying to talk me to moving out to the bay area because of how much awesome organizing is happening there, but imho the idea that if you are radical or into sustainability or other social justice issues you should move to the bay/portland/toronto/new york is really damaging - that vision is not sustainable for the future. we need to be community building and organizing everywhere, not just four cities in the u.s. even if it is easier to move to where the building is already happening. that's one of the reasons i love the allied media conference (it's a social justice conference that focuses on a lot of different issues - i do disability justice work there - but they have sustainability tracks as well as community tech tracks and other tracks) - allied media projects is doing in detroit what we need to be doing everywhere - actually bringing these principles into our own communities rather than moving where it's already easy to practice them, if that makes any sense.

/ramble :)

[aishah]

forgot to add - sachita, that is one of the things i love about the model you are building (& sharing with other women). that it is accessible to different communities/built on a model that is actually sustainable. versus a lot of folks i've seen doing sustainability organizing work in a way that is in reality unsustainable in a lot of communities. if that makes any sense.

[Sachita]

forgot to add - sachita, that is one of the things i love about the model you are building (& sharing with other women). that it is accessible to different communities/built on a model that is actually sustainable. versus a lot of folks i've seen doing sustainability organizing work in a way that is in reality unsustainable in a lot of communities. if that makes any sense.


not entirely no lol

I know what it needs to be. Who the people are that make it happen, I don't know. I'd love for it to be all queer but I'm more interested in good humans who don't get caught up in labels. I think it would be cool to have a very diversified group of people- kinky, poly,BF, spiritual, whatever. we come together for a much much bigger concept and although different we appreciate everyone's "thing".

My main motivation is to build a small loving community that focuses on food safety and teaching others to do the same. Thats why I am posting here and want to share with all of you. I would love to see more of you ban together and do what I hope to do.

[Sachita]

‎"We live in a technological age and have the notion that every problem has a technological solution. In the process, we've lost the experience of magic in our daily lives. Self-sufficient living allows us to experience magic daily, and it's wonderful: the magic of germination, decomposition, the cycling year, the relationship between soil and plants, the diversity of birds and insects and how they do this great wheeling, complex dance." — Harvey Ussery

No matter where you live or where you are in your journey toward self-sufficient living, you'll be inspired by the accounts and advice shared by Harvey and eight other modern homesteaders in our piece below.




http://www.motherearthnews.com/modern-homesteading/self-reliance-zm0z12fmzkon.aspx

[dykeumentary]

‎"We live in a technological age and have the notion that every problem has a technological solution. In the process, we've lost the experience of magic in our daily lives. Self-sufficient living allows us to experience magic daily, and it's wonderful: the magic of germination, decomposition, the cycling year, the relationship between soil and plants, the diversity of birds and insects and how they do this great wheeling, complex dance." — Harvey Ussery

No matter where you live or where you are in your journey toward self-sufficient living, you'll be inspired by the accounts and advice shared by Harvey and eight other modern homesteaders in our piece below.


http://www.motherearthnews.com/modern-homesteading/self-reliance-zm0z12fmzkon.aspx

Just thought since things don't seem to be getting that much better here in NYC, I'd stir the pot and see what people here think:

*Do people who think "government is too big" expect that Wal-Mart, or their hedge fund will rescue them today from their flooded house or to help their elders evacuate?

*How many more disasters will it take until people consume less (generally), and consume more things that are grown locally and sustainably (specifically)?

*Did you know that NYC built their low-income housing in flood zones, and so the poorest and most needy of the area's residents have been without elevators, hot water and heat since Sunday?

*How will poor people in areas with no power vote for elected officials who oppose global corporate capitalism? How will anyone vote if there's no power at their polling place? Oh wait, mega-corporations are people now, so they will be fine to vote.

*What can we learn from this storm, and all the "100 year storms" that happen annually in these days?

[Sachita]

ooooo would love talking about that. I have a bunch of kids I have to prepare a Halloween thing for but will be back!

[Sachita]

I thought about where to really post this. I'd like to see the direct of this thread move towards sustainability even if you live in the city, apt whatever. This includes ways to make things, save money and generally survive or live frugally.

I thought this was great info and something I will most likely try. During the winter my electric bills are easily 400-500 a month to heat several buildings.
This would also be great for a greenhouse.

http://www.permies.com/wood-burning-stoves.html