Butch/Butch Theory

[deathbypoem]

:grindevil:

Alright so here goes:

The first focus I would like to make is the butch/butch dynamic and how appealing it is to me and my personal preference. I do however, understand that I cannot and will not satisfy everyone on this topic but it is definately something that I want to put out here. At times, I wonder to myself being a member of the gay community why certain dynamics are shunned by our own. This will be a pill that is continuously hard to swallow. I understand individuals and their own preferences...But, Im not getting the narrow paths that some people tend to follow.
This isn't mainstream-sometimes we dont fit in-no matter what label/terminology is used. I totally get that. But, why is the hate continuing? (I have my own answers).

What does it mean for a butch to desire another butch? How is butch desire expressed? These are only a few questions that I have been asked recently. And I am willing to explain my theory on this.

Must opposites always attract? I do not think always. I do believe that we can be one in the same on all levels and still have an attraction. Does anyone else feel me on this?

Just to add to this little section of my world and to answer a few more questions I will continue with this:

To many people Im a "usual suspect" because i do not date femmes. Sometimes, it is looked upon as in me secretely hating them. THIS IS NOT the case. But, yet im deemed the ultimate threat. Because the butch/butch dynamic negates the binary oppositions and hence is threatening to most. -sighs-

One answer to the question: Who really agrees with the butch/butch dynamic? One who admits it.

Ok, so in a nutshell here is my butch haircut,stance,personality,preference and anything else you would like to claim as such. YES, I adore the butch/butch relationship dynamic and proudly I will continue to wear it.

Anyone else?
Comments?
Perspectives?


:harley:

[Just_G]

I saw this thread posted elsewhere as Butch/Butch Experiment. I think that you need to date or be with the one you are attracted to. For some it is not just one person, for some it is not just femme, for some it is not just butch. People are attracted to a variety of individuals.

Here in Kansas City where I live, I am looked at all kinds of sideways because I am Butch and I love Femmes. My friends don't get why I wouldn't date someone that is androgenous like them. I like Femmes....we have talked about it several times over drinks. I don't think they will ever get it. :thud:

I think if I told them I was attracted to other butches, they would understand that more so than me being attracted to femmes.

I think you should live your life the way you want to live it....even if some don't agree with it. God knows a lot of people sure don't agree with the way I live my life and who I am attracted to. :2cents:

Good luck DBP!

[deathbypoem]

Yes, this is a repost.. I also have this thread posted as Butch/butch experiment on the other site.. Im trying to reach out to as many people as possible...!!! So thanks everyone!

[christie]

Personally, butch/butch is hawt and I've never quite understood why some people are adverse to it.

Then again, I am a "whatever-it-takes, even-if-that-means-licking-your-left-elbow-on-a-blue-moon-odd-month-tuesday". :tongue::perv:

You have to live your life and find joy in it. If its butch/butch that works for you, I say have at it! :thumbsup:

Christie

[Apocalipstic]

I have to agree with everyone who has posted so far.

My town is similar to that G describes. You see Butches with Butches alot.

Snouzepoo?

Avocado Christie, I agree wholeheatedly on all points, though our fetishizing of B/B likely makes us pretty non-PC.

Death, you mention people feeling threatened by Butches who want to date Butches. I think people are naturally inclined to be threatened by something (anything).

I get the allure of dating someone you have tons in common with. I learned in Sociology in college that the more a couple has in common, the more likely it is that they will stay together.

I'm sorry that you feel misunderstood and I totally get that...most regular Lesbians in my town think I am absolutely out on the lunatic fringe somewhere for dressing like I do and liking Butches.

Maybe the power of Butch is what is threatening? I don't know. Interesting thread.

[christie]

=

Avocado Christie, I agree wholeheatedly on all points, though our fetishizing of B/B likely makes us pretty non-PC.



I'm sorry that you feel misunderstood and I totally get that...most regular Lesbians in my town think I am absolutely out on the lunatic fringe somewhere for dressing like I do and liking Butches.

Maybe the power of Butch is what is threatening? I don't know. Interesting thread.

HA! You are the first to call me by my pronoun!!! :cheer::cheer:

I know exactly what you mean about being on the lunatic fringe for being a feminine woman and liking butches! I lived there for the first 36 years of my life and I can tell you that meeting you and the TN gang was probably the most BF couples outside of Pride that I have ever seen at one time!

The bright side is that at least you have a community there.

To your question of the power of Butch being threatening, I don't think that's it - I tend to agree with your analysis of being attracted to the familiar.

[evolveme]

I think it's a problem of internalized homophobia. If we aren't fetishizing it (and it is squicking us out) this is likely the reason. Which is curious, because of who we are. Homophobia is so systemic that it would be over-reaching to assume we are exempt from experiencing it.

I have to share here, if I am honest, that the butch/butch dynamic was something I spent real work getting to be okay with (a previous partner was equally enamored of butches as with femmes). This bothered me. I had to think about why. I had to explore it and work it out.

Eventually, my baseline beliefs were able to overthrow my reflexive ones. I want for all of us to experience not just equality around whom we naturally love, but a sense of celebration.

And that's where I am today.

[deathbypoem]

Many MANY thanks to you grrls/guys that have shed some light on this bois mad rant :) :boxers: I appreciate the support and the real talk here!!! I think its great to be openminded and love who it is we so desire to.

[Dragonfly]

Has anyone experienced a butch/butch relationship where there was BF Community social pressure felt by one of you to "become more feminine"... or did others seem to question your butchness for having this preference?

[RNguy]

I think this is an interesting topic, so thank you for bringing it up.
I really think love is love, and I have always been curious on this one thought:
This is my own opinion. I wondered if 2 people were stranded on an island with no contact or communication with anyone other than the one they are stuck with and who haveno chance of being rescued then I wondered if those 2 people would fall in love .
I think that in that type of situation where 2 people never thought that the other persons identity was ever attractive all of a sudden find them to be the most attractive person they ever saw.
I have never thought that boi's were attractive at all. I have never been in any kind of relationship with another boi , butch, or andro even bc I'm just not that boi. I believe that love is love and who ever you find attractive and love is amazing ! I would think that the intimacy with 2 butches would be very very intence.
I wondered if since I do not think butches are attractive and would not be with one, if maybe I were to be stuck in a stranded place with no hopes of rescue if I would fall in love with another boi???? I think I would.
I think love is a beautiful thing no matter who one shares it with.
I have had several butches that only desire butches tell me that I am nice looking and etc... I'm flattered by that , just as I am flattered if a femme, or whoever would say it.

-RNguy

[Gemme]

I have to agree with everyone who has posted so far.

My town is similar to that G describes. You see Butches with Butches alot.

Snouzepoo?

Avocado Christie, I agree wholeheatedly on all points, though our fetishizing of B/B likely makes us pretty non-PC.

Death, you mention people feeling threatened by Butches who want to date Butches. I think people are naturally inclined to be threatened by something (anything).

I get the allure of dating someone you have tons in common with. I learned in Sociology in college that the more a couple has in common, the more likely it is that they will stay together.

I'm sorry that you feel misunderstood and I totally get that...most regular Lesbians in my town think I am absolutely out on the lunatic fringe somewhere for dressing like I do and liking Butches.

Maybe the power of Butch is what is threatening? I don't know. Interesting thread.

Two points:

1. I agree with you wholeheartedly that some are threatened by the power of (the) butch. I think it's the dichotomy that gets folks' boxers and panties in big ole bunches over it.

2. Schnoodle?

I think it's a problem of internalized homophobia. If we aren't fetishizing it (and it is squicking us out) this is likely the reason. Which is curious, because of who we are. Homophobia is so systemic that it would be over-reaching to assume we are exempt from experiencing it.

I have to share here, if I am honest, that the butch/butch dynamic was something I spent real work getting to be okay with (a previous partner was equally enamored of butches as with femmes). This bothered me. I had to think about why. I had to explore it and work it out.

Eventually, my baseline beliefs were able to overthrow my reflexive ones. I want for all of us to experience not just equality around whom we naturally love, but a sense of celebration.

And that's where I am today.

I had the opposite dynamic that I found I had to work on. For me, I just could not wrap my mind around the Femme/Femme dynamic. In my mind, it was so twisted and tangled with the images shown by straight porn of "lesbians" together that I think I rejected the concept as a whole.

It's my nature to say "whatever floats your boat" so I wasn't completely oppositional to the dynamic....just more along the lines of "why?" Since it's the hotness of the butch that revs my engine, I couldn't grasp why everyone didn't feel the pull towards them as I did. Eventually, I came to my senses and saw what others who do enjoy that dynamic see. I still don't feel it's for me, but my horizon was definitely broadened. :)

[Darth Denkay]

Interesting thought.

I can only theorize what would happen if I was stranded with another butch with no hope of ever being rescued or whatever. Assuming we got along and all, I would think that I would grow to love the other butch. Would I fall in love with them - well, I guess I'm not really sure what the difference would be between loving the butch and being in love with the butch. Splitting hairs - maybe. I imagine that we aould be involved in a sexual relationship. We both have needs and in extreme situations we sometimes do what normally would not be our preference. Happens all the time in situations where a bunch of men or women are forced together - in jails for instance.

So yeah, I would probably - hopefully - love the butch. Yeah, we would probably have sex. But again, this is an extreme situation. If the same butch and I were friends in the real world, would those same feelings and behaviors occur. For me, I would think not.

I think this is an interesting topic, so thank you for bringing it up.
I really think love is love, and I have always been curious on this one thought:
This is my own opinion. I wondered if 2 people were stranded on an island with no contact or communication with anyone other than the one they are stuck with and who haveno chance of being rescued then I wondered if those 2 people would fall in love .
I think that in that type of situation where 2 people never thought that the other persons identity was ever attractive all of a sudden find them to be the most attractive person they ever saw.
I have never thought that boi's were attractive at all. I have never been in any kind of relationship with another boi , butch, or andro even bc I'm just not that boi. I believe that love is love and who ever you find attractive and love is amazing ! I would think that the intimacy with 2 butches would be very very intence.
I wondered if since I do not think butches are attractive and would not be with one, if maybe I were to be stuck in a stranded place with no hopes of rescue if I would fall in love with another boi???? I think I would.
I think love is a beautiful thing no matter who one shares it with.
I have had several butches that only desire butches tell me that I am nice looking and etc... I'm flattered by that , just as I am flattered if a femme, or whoever would say it.

-RNguy

[imperfect_cupcake]

hmn, hard to explain.

for a long time my only exposure to dykedom was through amutual friend who was very much part of the seattle butch/butch leather scene, a long time ago. For the longest time is really affected how I percieved being a dyke. I couldn't be one. I wasn't a butch, nor was I that kind of leather. And as far as I knew, at that point, that's was dykes were.

plus when I was in their company, they did nothing but say dismissive and hideous things about femmes. Some of them occationally dated femmes but their attitude was "bit of fluff on the side."

So I grew from 18 - 25, thinking that the only way to be taken seriously was to be masculine and that butch-butch were so into masculinity, and hated femininity so much (probably due to the phase they had to go through of rejection for themselves), that femmes were pretty much loathed.

So I pretty much thought that butch/butch would hate me for my femininity, without even knowing me. But, there is a similarity in butch/butch as there is in gay male men/men communities. Many of them do hate women and want nothing to do with females. Thankfully, a lot of them don't. And the same with butch/butch.

So when I'm introduced to a butch/butch couple when I'm out, the first thing that skidds across my brain is "how quickly are they going to ignore me/dismiss me because I don't matter."

sometimes I'm proved wrong and that makes me happy. I can have good conversation with good people. And I've made some great, fun friendships. But sometimes, unfortunately, I'm right. And instead of friendship I get the bland dismissal look of "oh. femme. *blank*" Usually because they themselves make assumptions about me and about femininity.

I've been privy to conversation about things like "oh do we have to bring a femme along? she's just going to whine, complain about her feet hurting and demand attention..." when one of them says that they are bringing X to an after-party or whatever. Either forgetting I'm there or just being an asshole.

that said, one of the politest, loveliest butches was one that was with another butch and sincerely helped me when everyone else flaked out.

I'm just scared of wierd misogyny. I'm a bit wary about gay men in the same way when I meet them because of the same issue.

[Lynn]

Having worked so hard and waited so long to pursue the type of individual I would truly desire, I can't begin to judge anyone else for their preferences. I'm a pretty accepting, open person, anyway. I could probably fall in love with you (any of you) if you reveal yourself to me. I am deeply touched by authenticity, in all its forms. But, I've learned that love isn't always love, at least for me. I definitely have sexual preferences and proclivities. If you're a woman, that's great. If you have masculine qualities, that's perfect. I'm absolutely certain that my kind of desire grosses other people out. So, butch on butch doesn't perplex me, nor does femme on femme. Or just about anything else that's legal. We've come too far to require one another to justify who we are and how we're wired.

[labete]

I agree with the internalized homophobia angle that e presented. I think it applies to both butch/butch and femme/femme coupling, but it seems the femme/femme dynamic can more often be seen as arousing in the same way that hetero men often think of two women together, as if they are hot and sexy but incomplete in a way that makes it easy to fantasize sliding in there as a man or a butch and completing the image.

Butch/butch, however, is more often seen as complete, just as gay male couples are, and not inviting that idea of a masculine person to complete the image (not that no one ever fantasizes about being a third with two men or two butches, but that it's not as common to hear about or see, and I think more often the locus of interaction is projected to be the third party rather than the first two).

It's yet another manifestation of misogyny, I think, just as I think all homophobia is when cut to its core.

[Dylan]

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

[imperfect_cupcake]

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

hmn. dunno. I have a friend here for the past 7 years, she's a butch woman, drag king, ID's as a butch woman and dates a transqueer boy - he self ID's as an xxboy. They are different genders. but they still consider themselves a butch/butch couple (in the loosest of terms). They go to HardOn, sex club for gay men that include other queers and the times I've gone, it's been mostly maculine/masculine in terms of dyke/trans/genderqueer/men/cismen in there. So not the *same/homo* genders...

I was thinking about it further today. most of the couples who are masculine/masculine in my circle of friends aren't strictly butch/butch. It's trans/trans, butch/trans, trans/cisman, butch/cisman, butch/genderqueer. I don't think I know a butch/butch couple... I don't think I've met one since toronto (where I was also hugely ignored/dismissed for being feminine).

[eye ball roll self realisation] I obviously have a chip about this.[/eye ball roll self realisation]

[labete]

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

I don't think homophobia is restricted to a traditional understanding of homosexuality. I think sometimes people are suspicious of or uncomfortable around hetero couples when the man is particularly feminine or the woman is particularly masculine or both. It's not just about sex, not just about gender identity, not just about presentation, and it does seem to be largely situational.

Take a femme/femme couple. Some groups or communities would tend toward viewing this as arousing; others would tend toward squicky. Balance is reached when it's not noticed as anything out of the ordinary, instead of either fetishized or rejected as being different.

[Dylan]

hmn. dunno. I have a friend here for the past 7 years, she's a butch woman, drag king, ID's as a butch woman and dates a transqueer boy - he self ID's as an xxboy. They are different genders. but they still consider themselves a butch/butch couple (in the loosest of terms). They go to HardOn, sex club for gay men that include other queers and the times I've gone, it's been mostly maculine/masculine in terms of dyke/trans/genderqueer/men/cismen in there. So not the *same/homo* genders...

I was thinking about it further today. most of the couples who are masculine/masculine in my circle of friends aren't strictly butch/butch. It's trans/trans, butch/trans, trans/cisman, butch/cisman, butch/genderqueer. I don't think I know a butch/butch couple... I don't think I've met one since toronto (where I was also hugely ignored/dismissed for being feminine).

[eye ball roll self realisation] I obviously have a chip about this.[/eye ball roll self realisation]

right

So, even though there may be crosses of sex...genders are somewhat similar (if we're using gender loosely...say like masculine/masculine, feminine/feminine...just to make very ez examples. Obviously gender could be broken down more, but I'm trying to keep this hella ez).

So, you may have two same sex people (say, two female ID'd people), whose gender (butch on butch) match. They are homosexed, and also homogendered. But you may also have two differently sexed folks (male/female...again to keep it simple), whose genders are aligned (effeminate male with a non-masculine female). Heterosexed but homogendered. A transman and a female ID'd butch...could be heterosexed, but homogendered also (or heterosexed and heterogendered if the transman were feminine). (again, using gender very loosely as feminine and masculine just to keep things simple).

Either of these couples (as labete states) is going to make some people somewhat uncomfortable. While this discomfort could be lumped into some sort of 'homophobia', with the het couple, it's not a matter of homophobia (since they're straight). It's the effeminate gender of the male that makes folks uncomfortable. The same could be said for het butches.

I am probably not explaining myself well, but I can't post long right now...I'm at work, but wanted to see what folks had to say.


Dylan

[Bit]

When I see a Femme/Femme couple, I don't get uncomfortable, I just think "Lesbian." They would have to specifically tell me they didn't id as Lesbian before I would know that about them.

The same with a Butch/Butch couple--again I just think "Lesbian" and they would have to tell me that they don't id that way.

Seeing ANYONE I can identify as "Family" always makes me happy. I relax some inside when I'm around people who are identifiable in some way as Queer; I feel more secure when I don't feel like I'm completely isolated, the only Queer in the crowd.

[imperfect_cupcake]

So, you may have two same sex people (say, two female ID'd people), whose gender (butch on butch) match. They are homosexed, and also homogendered. But you may also have two differently sexed folks (male/female...again to keep it simple), whose genders are aligned (effeminate male with a non-masculine female). Heterosexed but homogendered. A transman and a female ID'd butch...could be heterosexed, but homogendered also (or heterosexed and heterogendered if the transman were feminine). (again, using gender very loosely as feminine and masculine just to keep things simple).


Ohhhhhhhhh. yeah yeah, totally get you. Yes that has marched across by brain before in a half-arsed way, getting lost and distracted in any other side thoughts passing along parallel.

totally. I hadn't thought about it in terms of "why people get uncomfortable" just "why I still consider that "het couple" not het at all and actually completely queer. I think the first one a met was my partner's (at the time) ex who was butch lesbian, falling in love with an effeminant bisexual male who wooed her for yonks. it may have been hetero/hetero even in both terms but it was still queer-ass.

that isn't even an example you were using, but it sure as fuck made people VERY uncomfortable, from every single group... Cept the bi friends they had...

But yes I see what you are saying, completely. Also another friend, who transitioned, who used to butch-femme, found he was more attracted to transmen after a few years. we had a good chat. He said that "I dunno, I think my sexuality is just very homo. after transitioning, it just felt too hetero for some reason I can't put my finger on..."

so, maybe for some people the homosex/homosexuality/homogender is all part of it?

[Lillie]

My 4 cents.

I believe the heart what the heart wants..Desire is a power so often out of our control..It comes and goes in all aspects of life..in high school I loved looking at feminine woman..yet my girlfriend was a tomboy lol..I appreciate a beautiful woman any size shape and color..I tend to desire the butch more becuase of the security I find in that dynamic..but like say if Kate Beckensale was available and looked in my direction..i'd take it! lol..and enjoy it lol..ooooooooo would I ever haha..ahem..off topic ok where was I? lol..oh ya..My desire for all things in life are different and eclectic..But being gay and living with the stigma that at times comes with that, made me realize that althougth I do not understand something in my community does not mean it is wrong or shouldnt happen. Do what makes you happy..you only get one go in this world..fuck it up! and in a good way :)

just a side note..I have a 16 yr old daughter who tells me her friends think im the coolest because Im a lesbian..rewind this when I was 16 and I was NOT the coolest because I was..wow how far we have come lol..

Enjoying my coffee and loving my life
Lilli

[Andrew, Jr.]

Love is love. Live your life as what you want and desire. Life is so short.

[KayCee]

Whatever will come, will come
Whatever will happen, will happen
Whatever will be, will be

Que Sera, Sera!

[Martina]

Well, i fetishize butch on butch. It's just hot.

i once got seriously chastised because i couldn't stop looking at this hot hot hot threesome of young butches at a play party. It was worth it. OMG.

i have got some shit from femmes for dating a femme. i mean some serious shaming stuff. i wish they just thought, oh, there goes a lesbian. Really homophobic reactions. "Ewwwwww" i got several times. This is LIVE. No computer to hide behind. i got that online -- in chat -- though too. i have heard things like, "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII don't do Ma'ams." i don't know what to say to that except, good, that leaves more for me.

[christie]

Well, i fetishize butch on butch. It's just hot.

i once got seriously chastised because i couldn't stop looking at this hot hot hot threesome of young butches at a play party. It was worth it. OMG.

i have got some shit from femmes for dating a femme. i mean some serious shaming stuff. i wish they just thought, oh, there goes a lesbian. Really homophobic reactions. "Ewwwwww" i got several times. This is LIVE. No computer to hide behind. i got that online -- in chat -- though too. i have heard things like, "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII don't do Ma'ams." i don't know what to say to that except, good, that leaves more for me.

Amen! Amen!!

I also thinks its just hawt - and will just tell folks that I am objectifying them!

I don't understand the very rigid perceptions people have concerning butch/butch or femme/femme. I didn't give up my "lesbian card" when I embraced that I fit into the femme category. Hell, I probably salivate over women more than Jess does! :freak:

I really wish that we, as a LGBTIQ (etc) community could stop being so critical and judgmental of one another - how do we expect the rest of the world to embrace our diversity when we don't practice what we preach?

[shadows papa]

I have to freely admit that when I first became a part of the online community that has blessed me with so many interesting caring friends and acquaintances,my knee jerk reaction to butch-butch was a big ole "YUK!" But after sitting with this and realizing it was a homophobic reaction I asked myself a simple question; "Who are you to judge what two or more consenting adults do in their bedroom or out of it,or to question what attracts them to another person?" The answer was,and is "nobody". That was a very freeing thing for me and allowed me to grow and more fully embrace the never ending diversity of our community. Just my .02. Shad

[tiggs]

For me having my formative :baby: queer years in a very much lesbian/andro community I really didn't have any exposure to the B-F dynamic until later in life :blink: . I have to admit when I finally found other butch/femme :cheer: queers I was kinda jealous when I would see the butch-butch dynamic. Mostly due to the fact that I couldn't find a butch that was into femmes, :p so you see, it seemed quite unfair that another butch could have one when you all seemed in such short supply already :lol2: Now that I am all growed up and married to my handsome Husbutch :love1::lips: I don't mind at all ;)

[Galahad]

butchonbutch dot ning

If you happen to be looking for something try it. We wish we knew where this b4b community is. Sort of the mythical lost land of butches, we hear about it but no one knows where it really is. Nice to daydream about it sometimes. It's like the lost tribe of Amazons.

[swagger]

ohhh zomg but i find butches hot, hot, HAWT! mostly though, i want to be them, rather than fuck them. but i don't see anything wrong with any adult being with another adult. butch on butch? beautiful.

[naturlover_52]

I have been out for 10 yrs and this is my whole life.....being a middle to a soft butch and being w/ a butch...Never thought I would find one that just loves me for me. WELL Now I have she is in Conn....but wants to move out to CA. She was born in Britain but moved to RI when she was 14 and then to SD and now to Conn. but she wants to move out to Calif to be w/ me. Never been this deep in love w/ someone before....having to pinch myself all the time...is this real.:moonstars::hangloose::fastdraq::bunchflowers ::batman::pirate:

[DaddyDevon]

:grindevil:

Ok, so in a nutshell here is my butch haircut,stance,personality,preference and anything else you would like to claim as such. YES, I adore the butch/butch relationship dynamic and proudly I will continue to wear it.

:harley:

deathbypoem, have you checked out www dot butchboi dot com ? Lots of hot butches, bois, and ftms! In fact, I know many of them. ;)

In Oakland/San Francisco a lot of masculine ID'd folks date, play, have sex, and partner with each other. Many femme/femme couples do as well, but it’s extremely rare to actually see them coupled. Knowing many of these femmes (my partner included), it has nothing to do with fear of stigma, they simply prefer butches. I must admit that at first I did feel a bit uncomfortable with my partner's attraction to femmes. Within all these possible combinations though, the vast majority of couples here are butch/femme.

I haven't seen or personally experienced judgment for any combination of queers including cisgender men. Perhaps I'm just fortunate to have an open-minded circle of friends. However, on very rare occasions there does tend to be some stigma if a butch or femme marries or partners with a cisgender man, more so when a femme does.

:grindevil:

What does it mean for a butch to desire another butch? How is butch desire expressed?

:harley:


I don't date or partner masculine ID'd people, but do play and occasionally have sex with them. I always top and the energy is quite different, more rough, raw, more emotionally detached, no romance, less physically and sexually satisfying, but extremely mentally satisfying and a much different power exchange that I really love. Even as mean and nasty as I can be with them, I'm still sensitive and nurturing, and it's always mutually satisfying; once a Daddy, always a Daddy. ;) Speaking of which, I love being in a D/b relationship. I definitely understand the attraction and hotness aspect of masculine/masculine energy and have been with people that prefer that. It's just not the sort of dynamic I want full-time. I’m really hardwired attracted to femmes. I adore everything about them. :)

[naturlover_52]

In Oakland/San Francisco a lot of masculine ID'd folks date, play, have sex, and partner with each other. Many femme/femme couples do as well, but it’s extremely rare to actually see them coupled. Knowing many of these femmes (my partner included), it has nothing to do with fear of stigma, they simply prefer butches.
why is there the stigma of 2 butches or a middle and butch being together....I am a softy and my gf is a butch....THIS is all I have been w/ the whole 10 yrs that I have been out as a lesbian. The first woman I ever dated was on Gay.com she was a tweener and me the soft butch.....most people can tell the min they meet me that I am gay...because of the fact that I guess I wear my sexuality out there...that I don't hide very well.

I just recently started coming to the planet in the last yr. IN fact I think it has been only in the last 6 mos that I really got involved w/ getting to know people here. I like seeing femmes....they are wonderful "eye Candy" but there isn't a sexual attraction to them. I always think that I am the odd duck....for my feelings towards butches.

Does anyone know about the Butch/femme Scene in the Stockton Sacramento area or down here in say the area of Pomona/covina/claremont/glendora area???

[DaddyDevon]

In Oakland/San Francisco a lot of masculine ID'd folks date, play, have sex, and partner with each other. Many femme/femme couples do as well, but it’s extremely rare to actually see them coupled. Knowing many of these femmes (my partner included), it has nothing to do with fear of stigma, they simply prefer butches.
why is there the stigma of 2 butches or a middle and butch being together....I am a softy and my gf is a butch....THIS is all I have been w/ the whole 10 yrs that I have been out as a lesbian. The first woman I ever dated was on Gay.com she was a tweener and me the soft butch.....most people can tell the min they meet me that I am gay...because of the fact that I guess I wear my sexuality out there...that I don't hide very well.



Hi naturlover,

I'm not sure if you're responding directly to my quote or not, but I believe you may have misunderstood me. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I stated not having seen any stigma in my community between butch or femme couples, and that there are many more butch couples, but hardly any femme couples. The lack of femme couples isn't due to their fear of stigma, but a preference for butches. I hope that clears things up for you.


I don't date or partner masculine ID'd people, but do play and occasionally have sex with them. I always top and the energy is quite different, more rough, raw, more emotionally detached, no romance, less physically and sexually satisfying, but extremely mentally satisfying and a much different power exchange that I really love. Even as mean and nasty as I can be with them, I'm still sensitive and nurturing, and it's always mutually satisfying; once a Daddy, always a Daddy. ;) [/SIZE]

I also just realized that my statement above sounds like I'm not as mean and nasty nor have rough and raw sex with femmes. That is FAR from the case! :) It's just not as emotionally and sexually satisfying for me with masculine folks.

[naturlover_52]

yes it did thanks very very much

I am wondering if this is the same for other areas up there my love and I can't afford to live directly in the Bay area but would love to go and hang out there a lot when we can and have the $$ to.:glasses::sunglass::hangloose::fastdraq::pirate ::batman::2butch:

[DomnNC]

To each their own, as long as it's two consenting adults it shouldn't matter to anyone. Your kink may not be my kink and vice-versa but we each have a right to pursue our own personal happiness.

[Brewcityboi]

butch on butch is such a fascinating concept.

To me its such a celebration of equals. Its also really sexy. Here in milwaukee, butches dating butches is a strict no-no. They feel that in order to really be a true lesbian it has to be butch/femme or femme/femme. Its nothing but bs and discrimination. I've noticed that people will always be uncomfortable with anything they dont even slightly understand.

I am nothing but a gender fuck. My identity lies all over the grey area of the kinsey scale in terms of gender and orientation. I love all women and trans bois. Its amazing the about of bull i get for being a butch that loves other butches and trans guys. For me its all about gender play and the fact that its taboo here makes it so much sexier. Its like being 2 gay men but far from it. Its impossible to find another butch that enjoys being with other butches. ironically now, the girl im with is the farthest thing from being butch. ultra femme and not my type. maybe thats why it works so well.

[LediskoLove99]

My thoughts have always been, we have so many limitations put on us by society as a whole, why put them on ourselves?

I personally love all relationships. Butch/butch femme/femme butch/femme ect.. (I think you get the point) relationships. I find that nothing is more adorable than seeing two butch women walking hand in hand. I love butches and find them sexy, so why wouldn't I love that dynamic?

Like I said I love all relationships and all people. I LOVE EVERYONE! Ok well some I love on a strictly platonic basis, like men. But I still love everyone.

Ok shutting up now.

[Quintease]

I live in a city, where lots of b/b, b/f, f/f, f/t, g/t, g/b and so on all date each other and hang out in different scenes. In fact I feel I'm doing a bit of a disservice as a lot of people I know have no interest in actually wearing a label, else they wear a rather 'shallow' label (as in, I have short hair therefore I call myself butch).

I think it's great! For myself I have dated a fantastic variety of women, so I was mortally offended once to join a b/f site only to read endless 'jokes' about how disgusting b/b was and how horny f/f was *vom*

[iamkeri1]

The B-F Community is exciting to me because it is the only place I have found affirmation for myself as a femme. I spent many years in politically active and politically correct Ann Arbor MI. Now that was a hard place to be a femme. I was actually degraded for wearing dresses - or makeup (dresses are soooo much cooler in a hot Michigan summer.) The norm was "andro" which translated at least in appearance to everyone looking (to me, the femme) butch. So most relationships at least in physical appearance were butch with butch.

Historically I have mostly been in relationships where the person I was with transitioned FTM. This reeked havoc with my lesbian identity, but conversely carries much privilege with it. What I made peace with over time, is that my ftm partner must have come out of the gay community and hopefully still identify somewhere along the queer continuum.

I find love hot.

If you as butch love another butch person, that is hot.
Femme loving Femme is hot.
Femme loving butch is hot
Femme lovng FTM is hot
Femme loving MTF is hot.

Finding someone to love who loves you back in this hard old world is hot
Smooches,
Keri

[SoberBoi]

Thank you for posting this! I have been feeling kind of lost because of this same issue.

I am a boi...not femme in any way, shape or form. I am attracted to butches. I like someone with strong shoulders and confidance who has not removed or contoured any female parts. I find tattoos and muscles sexy and I am totally not into BDSM, role-playing, vampirism, or any other new wave ideas... LOL

I am simply a boi that likes to be in the company of a gentleman. I do not want to be expected to be a girl counterpart or any of that. I just want a nice butch who is naturally butch, not forced or trying to be anything they are not. I don't care if I call my partner by masculine pronouns or they are completely male-identified, I just want a nice butch with a good heart.

Does that make me odd? :)

I know there are more of us out there....c'mon, 'fess up!

[QueenofSmirks]

Batten down the hatches and prepare for a shit storm, Sober Boi. Some of us will take your post for exactly how you meant it, but don't be surprised if you see a barrage of posts nit-picking every single word of your post and drawing conclusions that you didn't intend. Most of those posts will come from people whose insecurities crop up when they read words that state a preference that doesn't include them. Don't let it discourage you - it's an unfortunate reality of public posting.

Good luck finding your ideal partner ... there are many fine people on this site :)

[The_Lady_Snow]

Welcome to BFP!!!

Hope you find a gentleman butch and good friends!!!

[NorCalStud]

For every action in life we have only to come from a place of LOVE. If what we are saying and what we are doing does not come from a position of love and regard...we may be wasting time. I have to ask myself regularly..."Am I teaching or punishing?" In play? Punishing is pleasure...in real life...it is unacceptable .

[Merlin]

Labels are for tins,whatever floats your boat is fine.
So long as you are true to yourself.


Me .. I am a femme worshipper, I adore everything about a femme. It's in my blood :wine:

[weatherboi]

Hey!!! I'm in a Femme Led relationship which can be the minority here!! Don't be discouraged!!! There's some good folks here!!

[Merlin]

I am hoping to meet some good folk .. Just stating my preference is all.

As for labels .. :seeingstars: mega confusion.

Only label yourself not others lol.

[MarineCorps1]

Sigh. If only I had found this post when it was still active.

[macele]

hey marinecorps, you just re activated it! maybe others will share, i hope, for you.

i have been attracted to many butches. i'm butch. i've also been jealous of many butches lol. if i've ever been jealous of a femme, i can't recall. i'm thinking as i'm typing, so if i don't make sense lol.

i've always felt that no one can tell me who to fall in love with. i've never been in love with a butch, nor have i ever had sex with a butch. but no one can tell me i can't. i will if i want to.

yeah, i guess i'm just a femme lovin' butch lol.

[Jaques]

i feel there are no wrongs or rights in this, makes no difference, its about two women who are attracted to one another, butch & butch or femme & femme, we all have our preferences so theres no valid reason to discriminate...........

[MarineCorps1]

I am simply a boi that likes to be in the company of a gentleman. I do not want to be expected to be a girl counterpart or any of that. I just want a nice butch who is naturally butch, not forced or trying to be anything they are not. I don't care if I call my partner by masculine pronouns or they are completely male-identified, I just want a nice butch with a good heart.


Thank you so much - you took the words right out of my mouth.
And I agree, tattoos and muscles are HOOOOOOOOTTTTT!!!!!

[MarineCorps1]

hey marinecorps, you just re activated it! maybe others will share, i hope, for you.

i have been attracted to many butches. i'm butch. i've also been jealous of many butches lol. if i've ever been jealous of a femme, i can't recall. i'm thinking as i'm typing, so if i don't make sense lol.

i've always felt that no one can tell me who to fall in love with. i've never been in love with a butch, nor have i ever had sex with a butch. but no one can tell me i can't. i will if i want to.

yeah, i guess i'm just a femme lovin' butch lol.


Thanks for your response - and I agree, I've been attracted to both, too. And your last line of that last paragraph will officially become my new mantra - "I will if I want to!!!" hahahaha

Thanks again!:hangloose:

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

Thanks for your response - and I agree, I've been attracted to both, too. And your last line of that last paragraph will officially become my new mantra - "I will if I want to!!!" hahahaha

Thanks again!:hangloose:

*grinning* Picturing a kid, stomping their feet, sticking their chin out. I would even add the phrase "you're not the boss of ME!"

[WingsOnFire]

I have had the honor and pleasure of knowing a butch/butch couple. It is a very intense dynamic and one I also find HOT. lol.

And APG... I can SOOOO see that foot stomping action here as well...

[not2shygrrl]

OK, my 2 cents! The package we fantasize and hope for, it is just the start, the reality is that when you care/love another and have that love/care back from them, it is what makes your morning sunny! It is what makes us hurry up home at the end of the day, why we want to snuggle with them in bed, it is why they turn us on and much more!! I think how someone looks is just the tip of the iceberg that is to be discovered.

I agree that physical attraction does have its place, yup yup. On the same token have you ever been disappointed by someone who is outwardly beautiful (all genders included) and yet gags you with their personality?? I have, and I am not naive to think I have not gagged someone by my personality and/or looks. Likely I have, but its ok, life goes on.

My ideas of a partner when fantasizing and wondering are nice and can be exciting, certainly wanted and needed in my mind, to dream. I tend to be reality based in most approaches in this life, and my reality is......... what is in your heart is what attracts me. I don't limit myself to whom it is that attracts me with this one exception, age. ( It is one of my quirks and imperfections that I accept about myself) So many of you here in the planet for one reason or another I think are very attractive and or sexy! If I eliminate femmes from potential dating....I may pass on the best thing that would have ever happened to me in not even giving her a chance. Or enter any description you want where I used the word femme. The list can be long so please don't be offended for not seeing your ID listed.

Love who you want to love, if they love you, and enhance your happiness as well as you do for them, if you support each other when times demand it, its a win win! When I look at a couple and see they care for and love each other, who cares if it is homosexual, heterosexual, or any of the other variations of relationships. It is your life, if you are butch and want to be with another butch then go for it! What works for you may not work for me in determining potential in a person of interest. I respect you no less because of your choices.

Of course my post here is purely my opinion only, I speak for no one but myself. It is not my intent to insult anyone. Thank you BF Planet, as well as the members for providing this site and the many opportunities to speak and be heard respectfully. It is one of the few places I come to and don't feel as if topics are about being right or wrong.......

[ChainerBoi]

Butch/butch relationships have a whole different level of... I dunno... something going on. I think, for me, it's more cerebral, more... spiritual? A more intense type of sexuality - and less predictable.

[ChainerBoi]

Or, as someone in a previous post said, "A celebration of equals."

Thanks.

[Chancie]

Or, as someone in a previous post said, "A celebration of equals."

Thanks.

I hope I'm not sorry if I ask, What does that mean?

[Quintease]

Or, as someone in a previous post said, "A celebration of equals."

Thanks.

Wow...

How fcking insulting.

[Rope]

What you say about anothers sexuality/desire says more about you then it does about them. Internalized homophobia, mysoginistic turns of phrases, unintentionally insulting anothers relating with phrases like, 'more equal' or 'more spiritual' puts down the ability of another that they cannot have a more equal or spiritual relationship but you can...please. I sent a butch boi that was tracking me at an event to hang with the other bottoms who happened to be femmes for a bit in a hotel room, hys comment was, 'and do what, talk about fingernail polish?' Wow, way to turn me off by insulting my femme friends and assume their conversation could be nothing more than fluff.

We're attracted to what we're attracted to and that said, it can change over time.

So "our" community putting others down for their preferences is very sad and in my opinion should not be tolerated and challenged in conversations all the time.

Rope--

[Quintease]

What you say about anothers sexuality/desire says more about you then it does about them. Internalized homophobia, mysoginistic turns of phrases, unintentionally insulting anothers relating with phrases like, 'more equal' or 'more spiritual' puts down the ability of another that they cannot have a more equal or spiritual relationship but you can...please. I sent a butch boi that was tracking me at an event to hang with the other bottoms who happened to be femmes for a bit in a hotel room, hys comment was, 'and do what, talk about fingernail polish?' Wow, way to turn me off by insulting my femme friends and assume their conversation could be nothing more than fluff.

And the fastest way to show your complete ignorance of how the world works. As a femme I never talked about nail polish*. Most of my friends are feminine and I can't think of a single conversation we had which centred about nail polish. What I did have, unfortunately, was masculine-type dykes talking to me as if I was 3 years old. I even had women express shock and outrage that I wasn't willing to follow them home like they expected me to. I'd say the problem isn't the femmes in a lot of cases, but less mature boi's and butches buying into the idea that feminine = passive.


*(not until I found a woman who could paint it on for me and make it stay for 3 weeks so I wouldn't have to do anything myself. I still wear it, not because I'm a 'femme' but because my husband loves it)

[firegal]

Desire is Desire. I don't see anything wrong with Butch/Butch, Femme/Femme, Femme/Bi, Poodle/Schnauzer, etc.

I hope folks will engage on this, I think it there is some (wrongful, in my opinion) shaming that goes on when someone steps outside of the "Norm" but you know...everything "we" do is kind of out of the norm according to most folks.

:junesmiley:

Poodle /schnauzer..... thats outside the box.:blink:... thanks for the chuckle.

[Quintease]

Poodle /schnauzer..... thats outside the box.

Actually they're cute! I prefer Poodle /maltese though.

[ChainerBoi]

Ok, for those of y'all who don't read, here is the quote in its original context, (NOTE that I stated CLEARLY, "As someone said in a previous post" - that meant I was QUOTING somebody):

butch on butch is such a fascinating concept.

To me its such a celebration of equals. Its also really sexy. Here in milwaukee, butches dating butches.....

That statement was made last January, & seems Brewcityboi didn't get as much flak for it then as I did when I repeated HIS statement.

I don't speak for anyone but myself. For me, there is a different level of connection in a butch on butch relationship. I apologize that I don't have a better way of describing it than "spiritual" or "equivalent," but hey, I'm not a walking dictionary. And just because I feel that way about myself and my relationships does NOT mean I'm judging you and yours. If your relationships didn't do something for you on a level of spirituality and equality, then I'm sure none of you would be IN them, regardless of what manner of relationships they may be.

Again, I speak for myself alone, and I stand by what I said.

[Toughy]

Butch/butch relationships have a whole different level of... I dunno... something going on. I think, for me, it's more cerebral, more... spiritual? A more intense type of sexuality - and less predictable.

Or, as someone in a previous post said, "A celebration of equals."

Thanks.

Ok, for those of y'all who don't read, here is the quote in its original context, (NOTE that I stated CLEARLY, "As someone said in a previous post" - that meant I was QUOTING somebody):

That statement was made last January, & seems Brewcityboi didn't get as much flak for it then as I did when I repeated HIS statement.

I don't speak for anyone but myself. For me, there is a different level of connection in a butch on butch relationship. I apologize that I don't have a better way of describing it than "spiritual" or "equivalent," but hey, I'm not a walking dictionary. And just because I feel that way about myself and my relationships does NOT mean I'm judging you and yours. If your relationships didn't do something for you on a level of spirituality and equality, then I'm sure none of you would be IN them, regardless of what manner of relationships they may be.

Again, I speak for myself alone, and I stand by what I said.

The first sentence I bolded implies that f/f, b/f are less than. You flat out say that sex other than b/b is less than.

I bolded the word 'more' up there in your posts. It's the 'more' that creates problems for some of us. By saying 'more' it implies f/f or b/f is somehow 'less than' b/b.

The 'celebration of equals' also implies that femme is less than equal to butch.

You can talk about how your sexual proclivities work for you without putting down other folks through the use of un-neccessary adjectives.

Language is powerful. We must all take the time to think about what we write. We must actually understand what 'I' statements really look like. Saying "I think sex with butches is a whole different level and is more intense' is not an I statement. 'I find sex with another butch to be incredible' is an I statement. Or 'for me sex with another butch is incredible, intense, spiritual and cerebral'.

[MarineCorps1]

You're right, Toughy, language IS powerful.

So is what one CHOOSES to hear.

You make a great point in how ChainerBoi could have worded his statement by telling him that he could have said "For me, ...etc.", but you completely overlook the fact that, in his original post, he said EXACTLY that. He said the exact words "for ME" (emphasis added).

I've read a lot of posts on here in different forums that got my blood to boilin', or that I was ready to respond a certain way to, until I took a second to re-read what the person said, and fully understand it.

I think most of us would agree that what ChainerBoi said could have been said better and in a more tactful way, but I think we can all ALSO agree that he probably didn't mean it the way some folks took it.

Maybe we ALL just need to ease up a bit...?

At any rate, thanks to ALL for their comments.

[MarineCorps1]

Oh, and thanks, Toughy, for your point about "I" statements. Some of our youth may not have gotten that kind of education in relating to their peers, and even some of us who have may occasionally need refreshers.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I think it's fine and dandy to state our desires and preferences without having to belittle others when doing so.

That whole thing about equal and all that was poorly worded in regards to how a Femme is and how Femmes are being portrayed.

If a person wants to set a hierarchy and exclude Femme out of it I will and do have an issue with it.

I'm glad others do too and called it out. It'll be a good learning experience for all involved:)



You're right, Toughy, language IS powerful.

So is what one CHOOSES to hear.

You make a great point in how ChainerBoi could have worded his statement by telling him that he could have said "For me, ...etc.", but you completely overlook the fact that, in his original post, he said EXACTLY that. He said the exact words "for ME" (emphasis added).

I've read a lot of posts on here in different forums that got my blood to boilin', or that I was ready to respond a certain way to, until I took a second to re-read what the person said, and fully understand it.

I think most of us would agree that what ChainerBoi said could have been said better and in a more tactful way, but I think we can all ALSO agree that he probably didn't mean it the way some folks took it.

Maybe we ALL just need to ease up a bit...?

At any rate, thanks to ALL for their comments.

[Toughy]

You're right, Toughy, language IS powerful.

So is what one CHOOSES to hear.

You make a great point in how ChainerBoi could have worded his statement by telling him that he could have said "For me, ...etc.", but you completely overlook the fact that, in his original post, he said EXACTLY that. He said the exact words "for ME" (emphasis added).

I've read a lot of posts on here in different forums that got my blood to boilin', or that I was ready to respond a certain way to, until I took a second to re-read what the person said, and fully understand it.

I think most of us would agree that what ChainerBoi said could have been said better and in a more tactful way, but I think we can all ALSO agree that he probably didn't mean it the way some folks took it.

Maybe we ALL just need to ease up a bit...?

At any rate, thanks to ALL for their comments.

I pointed out that his 'for me' statement is not a good 'for me' or 'I' statement because the 'for me' is followed by 'more cerebral' and 'more spiritual' setting up a hierarchy with b/b being at the top and everything else falls below b/b. Leave the 'more' out of the statement and it's all good....no hierarchy.

I can only read what Chainer wrote. I have to believe he meant what he wrote.

I will never ease up when I see hierarchies being set up, especially when they are ones that appear to value masculine over feminine. Masculine and feminine are equal. Period. Full Stop.

[Rope]

Butch/butch relationships have a whole different level of... I dunno... something going on. I think, for me, it's more cerebral, more... spiritual? A more intense type of sexuality - and less predictable.

Just because you say 'Ithink, for me' does not remove the judgment language of 'it's more cerebral and more spiritual'. Back pedalling doesn't erase what you typed.

Rope--

[StrongButch]

I am a butch who dates other butches I respect everyones choice to be and date who they are attracted to I find that since I do date other butches many think im feminine and think because they are butch I would date them Both of these are untrue I am very butch and would never date or try to convince someone who wasnt into butch-butch dynamic to date me or switch teams Have a great day and keep loving who you love

[Reader]

Well, i fetishize butch on butch. It's just hot.

i once got seriously chastised because i couldn't stop looking at this hot hot hot threesome of young butches at a play party. It was worth it. OMG.

i have got some shit from femmes for dating a femme. i mean some serious shaming stuff. i wish they just thought, oh, there goes a lesbian. Really homophobic reactions. "Ewwwwww" i got several times. This is LIVE. No computer to hide behind. i got that online -- in chat -- though too. i have heard things like, "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII don't do Ma'ams." i don't know what to say to that except, good, that leaves more for me.

Interesting post and thread.

I was once at a public play party and I began watching a scene between a boi sub/bottom and a Butch Top.

The Butch Top had negotiated in advance with the boi's Owner, another Butch Top, and was actually borrowing the boi for the scene.

So, here's the tableau: me (a Butch Top) watching a boi be topped by a Butch Top while the boi's owner, a third Butch Top stands with a look of satisfaction, nodding, while the first Butch Top flogs the daylights out of the boi with two floggers at once, one in each hand, against a saw horse, and so on.

It was a great scene and it unfolded beautifully and slow. It was memorable.

I never really thought about if/how the Butch/boi couple had to deal with shit from others. There was just some intense energy between the couple that you could see and feel as the 'borrower' Butch flogged the boi as the Butch Owner watched nearby. And the aftercare between the Butch Owner and the boi was good to discreetly watch, too.

[deathbypoem]

I remember back in 09 when I first started this thread! WOW, that has been so long ago! Thanks Marine, for re-activating the thread :o) Its been a while, since I have even gone through these threads. Must have been super busy these last couple years hah!!! Glad you also agree that butch/butch is super hot :P. As for me, YES Im still on the very extremely butch on butch love boat!

[Mormegil]

I have been attracted to femme and butch in the past. But anymore im almost always attracted to butches. I recently spoke to a woman that flat out told me i was weird because im more attracted to other butch women. She then informed me it is unnatural . I was kinda shocked and told her that some folks think gay in general is unnatural. And that i think you should just like what you like and thats it. She then told me its to weird and two butches together make her think of two men. I asked about femme /femme and that was unnatural to. I just quit talking to her lol .

Ive also had my brother tell me it would be hard for me to find a butch that would date me because im butch. And i say thats bs. Ive seen plenty butch/butch couples. And i attended the wedding of a soft butch and butch that had been together 20 years. So i say its natural and more common than some believe.

[cinnamongrrl]

the only issue I have with butch on butch....is that whn they partner up, its two fewer butches for us femmes that love em.....lol

[homoe]

I have absolutely no issues with either butch on butch or femme on femme! If two people find someone in this day and age all the best to them:praying:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Internal homophobia is an ugly stain in our queer tapestry...

I have been attracted to femme and butch in the past. But anymore im almost always attracted to butches. I recently spoke to a woman that flat out told me i was weird because im more attracted to other butch women. She then informed me it is unnatural . I was kinda shocked and told her that some folks think gay in general is unnatural. And that i think you should just like what you like and thats it. She then told me its to weird and two butches together make her think of two men. I asked about femme /femme and that was unnatural to. I just quit talking to her lol .

Ive also had my brother tell me it would be hard for me to find a butch that would date me because im butch. And i say thats bs. Ive seen plenty butch/butch couples. And i attended the wedding of a soft butch and butch that had been together 20 years. So i say its natural and more common than some believe.

[JDeere]

Who cares who loves who and what label, they use, love is love!

Just my little take on the subject :p

[Angeltoes]

I don't think it's always a case of internalized homophobia. Some femmes may pout about the butch/butch dynamic for the simple reason that they're jealous. It means fewer butches available to them, especially if they find the butches involved to be attractive. It's hard to find a partner and it's easier to pass the blame for that by saying 'no wonder I can't find a partner when all the butches are being taken by other butches!" I have had brief moments where I felt that way. I know it's dumb and selfish, but I'm human. I always come to my senses, because we all need to find love and happiness. Life's too short to worry about other people's expectations.

[kittygrrl]

I think it's hot...everybody deserves to be happy

[Angeltoes]

I said we all need love, because whether we deserve it depends on the individual. Clearly not everyone deserves love, because some people don't behave in lovable ways. If they do behave well but never find love, then whose fault is it that they didn't get what they deserved? God's fault? Society's fault? There's no point in walking around thinking we didn't get what we deserved.

It's one thing to say that love is a need. It makes little sense to say that love is something we 'deserve.' We don't always get our needs met in life and sometimes we have make up for that in other ways.

[kittygrrl]

I said we all need love, because whether we deserve it depends on the individual. Clearly not everyone deserves love, because some people don't behave in lovable ways. If they do behave well but never find love, then whose fault is it that they didn't get what they deserved? God's fault? Society's fault? There's no point in walking around thinking we didn't get what we deserved.

It's one thing to say that love is a need. It makes little sense to say that love is something we 'deserve.' We don't always get our needs met in life and sometimes we have make up for that in other ways.

"little sense to say that love is something we deserve" hmm well that is an interesting point of view, however, there are all kinds of love in this world, romantic love is only one kind..:)

[Angeltoes]

"little sense to say that love is something we deserve" hmm well that is an interesting point of view, however, there are all kinds of love in this world, romantic love is only one kind..:)

True. I was just thinking the same thing. Some people are aromantic and don't even want romantic love.

[kittygrrl]

True. I was just thinking the same thing. Some people are aromantic and don't even want romantic love.

yes! very true...I have two sisters. Each have decided to be celibate and have been for more then 10 years and yet they have lives which are rich in all kinds of love..they are happy and there is no lack..they are awesome :)

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know asexually who are sexually celibate but still have romantic relationships.

There are people who desire sexual love but not romantic.


The ancient Greeks had six different words for different types of love, some of which I think some people based on their cultural/religious background wild not consider love at all, but I think it would be better to be more specific about the kind of love one desires as we all express and want different kinds of love. In my opinion, we for us far too much on one kind "Eros" as being the kind of partnership love to have with others outside of non-sexual love.

We seperate them. Put them in piles. No sex with friends, that's wrong, for example.

It's amazing how much I have to say about things when I'm studying for board exams...
Back to work...

[Tuff Stuff]

I never had a problem with butch on butch love,to each his and her own.My problem has always been being in love,i just like being in love..and then i'd get bored and leave.I always wanted new things(bad habit back in the day) that included a new love interest every weekend or at least once a month..way off topic here.

I'm heavy into voyeurism,so even though I don't participate in some things,doesn't mean I don't find it sexy.. again off topic.

There are different kinds of love,i know that.What i'm trying to say is I don't have a problem with it.

If you ever find yourself falling in love,fall hard!

:love1:

[JDeere]

I still don't see anything wrong with it, its love, go with it!