Cynthia Nixon says she's gay by 'choice.' Is it really a choice?

[Kobi]

By Karen Kaplan, Los Angeles Times/For the Booster Shots blog

1:47 p.m. CST, January 25, 2012

Former “Sex and the City” star Cynthia Nixon says she is gay by “choice” – a statement that has riled many gay rights activitists who insist that people don’t choose their sexual orientation.

Here’s what Nixon, who recently shaved her head to play a cancer patient in a Broadway production of “Wit,” told the New York Times Magazine:

“I gave a speech recently, an empowerment speech to a gay audience, and it included the line ‘I’ve been straight and I’ve been gay, and gay is better.’ And they tried to get me to change it, because they said it implies that homosexuality can be a choice. And for me, it is a choice. I understand that for many people it’s not, but for me it’s a choice, and you don’t get to define my gayness for me.”

The question of whether sexual orientation is subject to nature or nurture – or some combination of both – has been hotly debated for years. If it is not an immutable characteristic, that would imply that a gay person could be somehow transformed into a straight one. In other words, homosexuality could be “cured.” Which in turn implies that being gay is some sort of illness.

Hence, the offense taken to this point of view.

Nixon seemed to anticipate the controversy her remarks might generate. She also told the New York Times:

“A certain section of our community is very concerned that it not be seen as a choice, because if it’s a choice, then we could opt out. I say it doesn’t matter if we flew here or we swam here, it matters that we are here and we are one group and let us stop trying to make a litmus test for who is considered gay and who is not.” Her face was red and her arms were waving. “As you can tell,” she said, “I am very annoyed about this issue. Why can’t it be a choice? Why is that any less legitimate? It seems we’re just ceding this point to bigots who are demanding it, and I don’t think that they should define the terms of the debate. I also feel like people think I was walking around in a cloud and didn’t realize I was gay, which I find really offensive. I find it offensive to me, but I also find it offensive to all the men I’ve been out with.”

As expected, this did not go over smoothly with everyone. Writing on AmericaBlog Gay, John Aravosis wrote that Nixon “needs to learn how to choose her words better, because she just fell into a right-wing trap, willingly. When the religious right says it's a choice, they mean you quite literally choose your sexual orientation, you can change it at will, and that's bull.”

So, what’s the scientific evidence that sexual orientation is either a biologically determined trait or an actual choice?

A Spanish study published in 2009 in the journal Investigacion Clinica summarizes the evidence for genetic influences. Based on research comparing identical twins, fraternal twins and even siblings who were adopted, scientists have determined that 27% to 76% of the chance that one is gay is determined by DNA. The genetic influence appears to be greater for men than for women, according to the study.

Other stuff is probably happening in utero that influences one’s sexual orientation. As a review article published last year in the journal Endocrinology explains, exposure to atypical levels of testosterone and other steroids in the womb is probably responsible for some people being gay. Another review article, published last year in Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology, makes the same point:

“The evidence supports a role for prenatal testosterone exposure in the development of sex-typed interests in childhood, as well as in sexual orientation in later life, at least for some individuals. It appears, however, that other factors, in addition to hormones, play an important role in determining sexual orientation. These factors have not been well-characterized, but possibilities include direct genetic effects, and effects of maternal factors during pregnancy.”

One of those prenatal influences may be the number of males who have previously inhabited the mother’s uterus. It may sound strange, but Canadian researchers have found that “having one or more older brothers boosts the likelihood of a boy growing up to be gay,” as I explained in a 2006 Los Angeles Times story. As I wrote at the time, “The so-called fraternal birth order effect is small: Each older brother increases the chances by 33%. Assuming the base rate of homosexuality among men is 2%, it would take 11 older brothers to give the next son about a 50-50 chance of being gay.” Those findings were reported in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

In addition, my colleague Shari Roan wrote about a fascinating controversy surrounding treatment for a rare condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia. The disorder can cause girls to be born with genitals that look male, making it hard to tell the baby’s gender. One treatment is to give women hormones during subsequent pregnancies to reduce the risk for siblings. But doctors have found that this approach has an unusual side effect:

“The treatment might reduce the likelihood that a female with the condition will be homosexual,” Roan wrote. “Further, it seems to increase the chances that she will have what are considered more feminine behavioral traits.”

This is all just the tip of the iceberg. But the scientific consensus seems to be that there is indeed a biological basis for homosexuality – though it’s not necessarily 100% determined by either genes or by environmental factors.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/la-heb-cynthia-nixon-gay-by-choice-20120125,0,3775839.story

[Kobi]

Leaving the Hollywood aspect, the studies influence, and the political implications out of it, I'm interested in how many people here see their orientation, however you define it, as a choice or the destiny of biological influences.

So which has been your own personal experience?

[DapperButch]

My guess is that Nixon is saying that for her it is a choice to choose to live her life with a woman. Meaning, perhaps she is bisexual and can be satisfied having a relationship with either sex. Therefore, it IS a choice for her.

[DapperButch]

Leaving the Hollywood aspect, the studies influence, and the political implications out of it, I'm interested in how many people here see their orientation, however you define it, as a choice or the destiny of biological influences.

So which has been your own personal experience?




For me, I believe it is biological. I don't have any of the "environmental factors" that the right-wing, Freud, or some researcher somewhere says is the reason a person is gay.

[princessbelle]

MHO...

If it is a choice to some, that translates to being bisexual.....again MHO. You can choose either sex you want and you are physically and mentally attracted to either sex or gender rather. That's what bisexual is as far as i know.

As far as them finding a "cause" for being gay...

I don't think my momma gave me too much testosterone. I dare say i have the limit of minute. It didn't say that was true for everyone, just wanted to point that out. It really doesn't make sense to me at all.

I don't WANT anyone to prove that it is something we are born with though and go messing around with genes and DNA...and here is why....

I know most of "us" are born this way. Or i should say, i know *i* was born this way. Just like i was born to have blonde hair and blue eyes. If they keep messing around in the DNA, and if they isolate some gene or chromosome, the next thing we will be reading is a "right" to have an abortion if this gay-gene is present.

To me, that is still saying we are defective. I don't care what Cynthia says. To each his/hys/her own. We each have our own journey and idea of who we are. I don't speak for others and i truly hope she is not doing that.

I wish the straight world would just freaking accept we are here, we are not going away and we are not defective. Whether we choose it or not.

See? I can sling my arms in the air too.

Live and let live.

[clay]

For me, I was BORN gay! It was in my biological coding map....grin...I just wish I would have been given a "map" so I knew the terms for my gayness many years sooner then I found out the terms...:).
Like Belle, others...I am who I am..I make no apologies. I live my life on my own terms....I live life like I was dying....no regrets...:)

[Sassy]

My guess is that Nixon is saying that for her it is a choice to choose to live her life with a woman. Meaning, perhaps she is bisexual and can be satisfied having a relationship with either sex. Therefore, it IS a choice for her.

My thoughts as well.

[Kobi]

Personally, I have always called my gayness an innate thing. It is a sexual and emotional attraction to women that defies words.

I also have an issue with Hollywood people like Anne Henche and Cynthia Nixon not being aware of the implications of the words they use for the larger whole.

Seems they think we need cheerleaders when we really need more strategists.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

I have a hard time understanding why some people don't get it. Oftentimes it seems a person wants to project their own experiences onto everyone else or put everyone in boxes. You're Straight, you go in box 1. You are born Gay, you go in Box 2. Oh, I'm sorry there isn't a box 3, 4 or 5 or 100 or 1 Billion, you will have to fit into box 1 or 2. LoL. Discovery comes through many different experiences. My personal road doesn't define your path of discovery, and your path doesn't define mine.

For some of us we are born Gay and for others it's a choice whether it be Gay, Bi, Pan, or any other identity. I've known women who didn't discover that they were Gay until they were over 50 years old. I know other women who came out in their 30s, both Bi and Gay, and they had never thought about being with another woman before. That was a WOW moment the first time I met someone with this experience. I almost couldn't fathom it. But I accepted it. And I have met many many women and men with so many different stories of discoveries. So for me, not everyone is born Gay just because I was.

Yes, I was born Gay. But then, my story is still so much more complicated than that, (lol) because I believe in living a life or many lives before this one.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

My guess is that Nixon is saying that for her it is a choice to choose to live her life with a woman. Meaning, perhaps she is bisexual and can be satisfied having a relationship with either sex. Therefore, it IS a choice for her.

I like this too.

[BullDog]

I don't get the uproar over what Cynthia Nixon said. If it's a choice for her, it's a choice. I think I was born being gay. She may think differently. I'm not even sure you would have to be bisexual necessarily to think it was a choice.

Thankfully not every gay person is exactly the same or thinks the same. However I actually do think saying it's genetic could potentially be used against us way more than saying it's a choice. I do think I was born this way. I just hope science doesn't get into the wrong hands.

Oh and I think Cynthia Nixon made a great choice. ;)

[ButchEire]

Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes! I agree, each path is as unique as the individual and yes, absolutely, people are born gay. In equal fashion, i've known people who's heterosexual experiences (in childhood, mainly, but also as adults) were simply so traumatic that same sex relationships were simply the right choice for them. No path is wrong, but I think it's narrow minded to believe it's one way or the other with no grey areas.


I have a hard time understanding why some people don't get it. Oftentimes it seems a person wants to project their own experiences onto everyone else or put everyone in boxes. You're Straight, you go in box 1. You are born Gay, you go in Box 2. Oh, I'm sorry there isn't a box 3, 4 or 5 or 100 or 1 Billion, you will have to fit into box 1 or 2. LoL. Discovery comes through many different experiences. My personal road doesn't define your path of discovery, and your path doesn't define mine.

For some of us we are born Gay and for others it's a choice whether it be Gay, Bi, Pan, or any other identity. I've known women who didn't discover that they were Gay until they were over 50 years old. I know other women who came out in their 30s, both Bi and Gay, and they had never thought about being with another woman before. That was a WOW moment the first time I met someone with this experience. I almost couldn't fathom it. But I accepted it. And I have met many many women and men with so many different stories of discoveries. So for me, not everyone is born Gay just because I was.

Yes, I was born Gay. But then, my story is still so much more complicated than that, (lol) because I believe in living a life or many lives before this one.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes! I agree, each path is as unique as the individual and yes, absolutely, people are born gay. In equal fashion, i've known people who's heterosexual experiences (in childhood, mainly, but also as adults) were simply so traumatic that same sex relationships were simply the right choice for them. No path is wrong, but I think it's narrow minded to believe it's one way or the other with no grey areas.

Thank you, Thank you ButchEire. :) I agree with you. I have also known those with this path too.

And I might also add... ok, I'm going to go ahead and add. Technically, there are those who may identify me as Straight. But please don't tell anyone. LoL. So, maybe I was born Straight. I don't know. I think it depends on who you ask.

[julieisafemme]

I agree with what Cynthia Nixon said. Nobody would publish what I say because I am not a famous actress but I feel the same way. I have been attracted to butches from a very early age. I did not act on that attraction for many reasons. I made a conscious choice to come out a 42. I am out in every part of my life and I am very proud of that choice! I celebrate it every day. I don't consider myself bisexual. I am a queer lesbian.

I especially agree with her point about not letting the religious right wing define the terms of the discussion. No matter how we got here we are gay. That is what matters. I also agree with Belle about the issue of defining being gay through genes. Because it still puts the discussion in the realm of something that can be "cured" or changed. I don't care how I got this way and I do not want to change it.

[Strappie]

Maybe she "thinks" she chose to be gay? She chose to be with men at one time and now women. I personally think that makes her Bisexual, she obviously loves both features of men and women.

I was born gay.... I know nothing else... was that a choice?

I also think there are people that were born Bi... Is that a choice? They choose who they will date... Maybe that is the CHOICE she is talking about?

I believe for some people it is a choice, the choice to live your life as you are or who you are!! "That is the Choice!"

**Disclaimer** I do NOT think being BI is a nasty dirty word (I have many friends that label themselves as Bi)

[betenoire]

I like where she said (to paraphrase and make it something more like how i would say something) who gives a shit how I got here - I'm here.

And can we please all just stop calling her bisexual? She gets to choose how to describe herself.

[Strappie]

I like where she said (to paraphrase and make it something more like how i would say something) who gives a shit how I got here - I'm here.

And can we please all just stop calling her bisexual? She gets to chose how to describe herself.

You make it sound like Bisexual is a dirty word. Yes you are correct that she does get to choose who she is or how she wants to label herself...

[nycfem]

My lesbianism is not biological in the sense that I've been physically attracted to all varieties of gender. Yet at the same time I would not say that being a lesbian was a choice for me.

I grew up in a home that was extremely patriarchal and misogynistic. I would get panic attacks listening at night to my father abuse my mother. And it went on and on, day in, day out. There was not a single moment when his goal was not to be as cruel as possible to her. And she took it, and we all took it, day in, day out. And it sent chills through me. Was this going to be my future?

In junior high school I had my first girlfriend. We fell deeply for each other, though we didn't call it "lesbian." Still, I had a moment of feeling like, "This is what life is about." It was broader than physical attraction. I felt like this was a type of love that rocked me to my core. Her parents and then my parents split us up, forbade us from seeing each other, and called us dykes. We had no idea what that meant and vehemently denied that we were anything bad or perverse.

Then in high school I found the book Radical Feminism, a 1970's anthology. I read that "Feminism is the theory. Lesbianism is the practice." I got into separatist literature and music and learned that "Any woman can be a lesbian." It was at that moment I KNEW I was a lesbian. It became a part of my blood, a political choice and yet it felt deeper than a choice and still does. I knew it would not be a phase, that this was IT, how I would live my life. I knew that I could never have a real romantic relationship with a biological man and would never want that, despite having a wonderful brother and male friends. I've always been happy and fulfilled living my life this way and still am. I couldn't/wouldn't change it for anything or anyone.

[betenoire]

You make it sound like Bisexual is a dirty word.

I am openly bisexual. I clearly do not think it is a dirty word - but I really do not like to hear people naming other people's sexuality for them.

[CherylNYC]

I have some old school lesbian feminist friends who believe, like Ms. Nixon, that they made a choice to be gay. They were able to enjoy sex with men, but once their feminist consciousness was awakened in the 1970s, they couldn't bear to spend very much time with them because of their typically irritating behaviours. One of those couples has been together for more than 30 blissful yrs, and they have sex all the time. I don't think it would be wise for anyone to suggest to them that they aren't really lesbians. So, Pat Robertson was right. Feminism turned them into lesbians.

I was born this way. I'm a very sexual person, and I've forgotten more men than most women ever bed in a lifetime. That information surprises most people since I'm such a ferocious lesbian now. I didn't stop having sex with men until I was 21 or 22 yrs old. (I'm pushing 50 now.) I IDed as bisexual back then, and later as a lesbian.

We all come to our IDs in our own way and in our own time. I'm sure it would be far more convenient if we were all exactly alike, but we're not.

[Arwen]

I've run the gamut from straight to lesbian to bisexual to queer. I don't give a rat's ass what Cynthia Nixon calls herself. I think it's heinous, controlling and overtly something or other ogynist to say she has a duty (implied) to be the right kind of lesbian if she's going to be public about it.

That's bullshit and I call it bullshit.

I'm really tired of our community's attempt to control one another by not who we sleep with but HOW we sleep with them. BAH!

This rant was brought to you by Arwen who was a bit stressed out tonight and is taking that stress out on these nameless arbitrators of what constitutes a "good" public lesbian.

[blush]

Why are we still trying to find the origins of homosexuality like it is a pathology? We've never sought out the cause of heterosexuality. Homosexuality is unusual, but so is being left handed.

[Vlasta]

I really don't care how Cynthia Nixon chooses live her life . It's none of my business , it indicates she it's bisexual and it's her choice . yet , to us gay people going so public with this it's harmful to us since some people thinking we can be cure and we choose to be gay .
I born gay , but naive about my sexuality and growing up, I have a nobody to guide me and give me advice . As many of us I was doing so called "right thing " by society . I got married and have a child . Back then all my friends all ready have children and I was looked it like " what it's wrong with you ?" How come you don't have children , yet ?

I suffered a lot into my marriage which it's no need for me go to into any details . Until one day I met this butch women and it was like aha moment . I realized oh this is what is wrong with me .I haven't have a sex with men since then .

I know I will get it for my opinion , but I never been fond of bisexual people . It's really harming to our reputation since there are some homophobes they would like to cure me . No , thank you !

[Arwen]

I'm going to regret this.:canoworms:

Vlasta, how can you even say that you think bisexuals harm gays? How?

Hello. My name is Arwen. I partner with FTM's.

In some narrow-minded people's eyes, that makes me bisexual.

So I'm harming the gay culture now?

Really?

Can you take a step back and consider what you just said? Please?

[Vlasta]

I'm going to regret this.:canoworms:

Vlasta, how can you even say that you think bisexuals harm gays? How?

Hello. My name is Arwen. I partner with FTM's.

In some narrow-minded people's eyes, that makes me bisexual.

So I'm harming the gay culture now?

Really?

Can you take a step back and consider what you just said? Please?


I knew I will get it for this one lol . I was not talking about FTM's . I was partnered with them as well . However , when a public person steps out and say it's my choice it gives an uneducated heterosexual people impression that we are perverts, unable to raise children in healthy environment since they have a two mothers or two fathers and we choose to be gay . Which is ridiculous !.

I am sorry Arwen as I much I have respect for you this it's just MHO , with bisexuals it's like I want my cake and eat it too .

I am not thinking you are harming the gay culture , I just think you went though an evolution with your sexuality as many of us .

[Random]

I watched a utube by Ivan Coyote this morning and in it he was talking about how some person on a pride committee stated that Pride needed to be more *Family Friendly*

IE: show the straight world more *mainstream* people and less Butches and Drag Queens..

Blink

I'm no quite sure why this thread brought that to mind, other than I had the same reaction to both..

Fuck what the straight world thinks about my community..

ya ya... I know, not very realistic, not very practical...

Cynthia Nixon is in love with her partner...
Her partner is a female..

Is that love less valid because she can fall in love and maintain a relationship with both sexes?

Do any of us think about what it's going to do to the *Community* when we fall in love?

Should we keep in the closet about how we feel to reinforce the illusion that being gay is strickly a biological deal and it can't be helped?

Re: Choice...

I'm a firm believer in the Kinsey Scale...

I believe that someone can choose to be gay, just the same as someone is born gay... I also believe in all the shade inbetween.

One is not less valid than the other..

There are no *Gold Stars*

[Random]

this it's just MHO , with bisexuals it's like I want my cake and eat it too .



Would you please elaborate on this statement?

How can someone being able to fall in love with either sex be *having their cake and eating it too?*

How is dating FtM's a *an evolution with your sexuality* but someone who is bisexual just playing around (that's how I interpreted your statement of having their cake and eating it too.)

[Vlasta]

Would you please elaborate on this statement?

How can someone being able to fall in love with either sex be *having their cake and eating it too?*

How is dating FtM's a *an evolution with your sexuality* but someone who is bisexual just playing around (that's how I interpreted your statement of having their cake and eating it too.)



Thanks , but no I will not elaborated on my statement here since I don't have enough bodies here to high 5 me . It's just MHO and you can't take it or leave it .

thanks for asking , I don't believe in self punishment neither to beat a dead horse .


have a great night

[Glenn]

At first I thought I don't give a rats ass either because I was also born this way and I am a lifelong butch, and I am very secure with it. But all night, I was thinking about the future generations of my brothers and sisters, and their security, and their future battles with the religious right and media steriotypes. A lot of heterosexuals literally raise their kids on what the media tells them. If everyone who is somewhat a star in the media gets up and states it is a choice, then, that may motivate some folks to choose their own, sometimes nefarious methods in the future to change us. I have personally experienced people who hated us, evolve into becoming more accepting when given reasons to believe we are born this way, rather than thinking my nature is just a choice. This thread has made me realize how important it is how my spokespeople respond in the media to people, especially movie stars, and attractive women, that heterosexuals admired. Because this may influence how my brothers and sisters in the future are treated, I am very proud of my people who questioned her "terminology" in the media, and reinforced the fact that for many of us, it never was, nor will be, just simply a... choice.

[T4Texas]

I think everyone is different in that we come to being gay in different ways and times. For me, as I look back, I was attracted to females at the age of six which makes me think for myself, it was a biological/DNA thing. For others, they are late bloomers who come out in their 40s/50s/60s and perhaps for them its more of a choice to leave their straight lives behind. Or perhaps the gene was always there and they are just now acting on it. Society conditions us to live the straight life and for some its harder to just stand up and say NO, Im not going to be conventional. It reminds me of a bumpersticker I saw once that said I wasnt born in Texas, but I got there as fast as I could. I feel we all try to get to that place we think we belong as we grow older. I dont think any person here can say their sexual/gender lives hasnt been some kind of evolutionary process.
As for Cynthia Nixon. I think its her business how she chooses to represent herself. We would all be up in arms if someone told us how we should ID so she gets her choice. The complaints of certain people in the community I feel are nitpicking. If the gay community would stand up and present a more solid front, we would probably have less problems with the religious right but IMO the gay community has always been hit and miss on matters of politics and subjects that relate to our wellbeing as gays.

[Kobi]

At first I thought I don't give a rats ass either because I was also born this way and I am a lifelong butch, and I am very secure with it. But all night, I was thinking about the future generations of my brothers and sisters, and their security, and their future battles with the religious right and media steriotypes. A lot of heterosexuals literally raise their kids on what the media tells them. If everyone who is somewhat a star in the media gets up and states it is a choice, then, that may motivate some folks to choose their own, sometimes nefarious methods in the future to change us. I have personally experienced people who hated us, evolve into becoming more accepting when given reasons to believe we are born this way, rather than thinking my nature is just a choice. This thread has made me realize how important it is how my spokespeople respond in the media to people, especially movie stars, and attractive women, that heterosexuals admired. Because this may influence how my brothers and sisters in the future are treated, I am very proud of my people who questioned her "terminology" in the media, and reinforced the fact that for many of us, it never was, nor will be, just simply a... choice.



This makes sense to me.

Having grown up and come out in an era when homosexuality was illegal and criminal, as well as a mental illness that needed treatment, I am always mindful that there are still folks out there who view my sexuality as a moral issue in need of fixing.

Those same folks are still looking to revoke those gains, rights, and freedoms that so many of our brothers and sisters died for.

I am also aware, that the terminology and concepts used within our community is understood differently by us than it may be viewed by outsiders who are still looking to annililate us from the face of the earth cuz we are a moral disease that must be eradicated.

Words can be tricky things that help or empower us in one way or potentially harm us in another depending on how they are interpreted by others. Others may not define us, but others may have the power and/or need to thwart us in accordance with their own beliefs.

For some people, being queer is a biologically based thing. They didnt choose to be this way. This is how they came. This can be very comforting and empowering.

In a society like ours, where science, genetics specifically is progressing, being queer, might come down to a gene. What is done with that information is a concern to me. Genetic engineering and genetic cleansing is a concern to me.

On the other hand, for some, sexuality is fluid and choice is indeed a big factor. It is who they are. It is how they came. This too can be very comforting and empowering. It may be the ideal, I dont know.

For me, when the media points the spotlight on folks like Anne Henche or Cynthia Nixon for how they personally see their own situations, I get antsy. And, I get antsy for the same reasons some of the transfolks got antsy about Chaz Bono. These people have the visibility to color others perceptions of who the collective, diverse "we" are. Like it or not, what they say and how they say it, has an impact. It is not seen as just their unique presentation of themselves. It is seen as representing a group.

What works for Cynthia Nixon, is great for Cynthia Nixon.

But, what is always lingering in the back of my mind is images of the likes of Matthew Shepard and Brandon Teena.

[BullDog]

If we make our official "stance" that we were all born this way and can't help it- the right wingers could go all out looking for the "gay" gene to cure us.

Why is someone proclaiming being gay as a choice more of a frightening scenario? I don't get it.

I believe I was born with same sex attraction. However how I choose to live my life in a homophobic world is full of personal choices I have made.

Making choices for oneself is powerful. There is no "cure" for that.

[Chancie]

For me, it's not important to explain or analyze why I am queer.

I don't need to say, I was born this way, or

I was made this way.

I am queer.

But it is my choice to be with butches.

I certainly could have continued to have relationships with men, and

Some of those relationships were lovely.

[apretty]

I think we all have the choice to believe whether or not we were "born gay."

I was not "born gay" and I do fully identify as Queer.

E and I have this conversation periodically and for E, it's not the same so I respect our different beliefs and experiences.

[pamela]

the important point is that she expressed her thoughts and was not afraid to do so.

[betenoire]

I am sorry Arwen as I much I have respect for you this it's just MHO , with bisexuals it's like I want my cake and eat it too .

Well I do like cake as much as the next person, but you are wicked out of line. You're not talking about Arwen, fine. But you -are- talking about me.

In the future I would appreciate it if you would either back your ugliness up or back your ugliness off. Pick one. (Meaning - if you're not prepared to explain or examine your ugliness try and keep it to yourself.)

[The_Lady_Snow]

Nixon is not someone "I" consider a queer I look up to or one that inspires me, frankly I just read about her roll my eyes and go on to the next story, her comments can be ridiculous between this and " man boobs" I'm over her... I am a bit disconcerted with the comments made about bi sexuals that for "me" is more alarming than what Nixon is spewing out..

[JustJo]

I've stayed out of this convo because I don't have strong opinions either way.

I think it's perfectly possible that some of us are born this way, some choose this, some grow into it, some discover it....and I'm good with whatever. To each their own.

I also think it's very likely that the conservative voices that hate us for it will hate us all equally and try to find a way to eradicate it....whether it was born or chosen.

I think the most important thing is that we present a united front to those folks...even when we internally disagree...and not pick each other apart for our differences. This is why I have finally decided to participate....because I find the "anti-bisexual" stuff recently expressed in here as disgusting and mean.

I don't define anyone else, and they don't define me. I don't have to share someone's ID or preferences or lifestyle....or even "approve" of it. However, we are all in this community together...and throwing out those negative judgments based on who someone is, is just plain nasty.

[Arwen]

I realize this has warped a bit from Cynthia Nixon to other areas. I'm not going to support the idea that bisexuals are what's wrong with the queer community. That idea is repugnant to me for a lot of reasons.

A person gets to choose how they define themselves unless we are living in a country where that freedom isn't available any more?

Let me know so I can pack and move, mmmkay?

Honestly, some of the hate and loathing expressed here makes my skin crawl. I'm out for the weekend. Hopefully the air will be a little cleaner once I get back.:byebye:

[Nat]

I think for Cynthia Nixon it's her choice how she defines herself her experience and am annoyed by the anger she's received in response.

I realized it was not a choice for me a long time ago, though I enjoyed men in bed just fine. My heart was the issue, not my loins. Lucky for me, it turned out where my heart lead, my sex happily followed.

I think the waters are muddied by our lack of equality. I think many of us believe - and many straight people are only able to accept us if they believe - that we are born this way. Then being gay seems to have a stronger foothold against the people who would like to call our love abominable, unnatural and the like.

But there are flaws to convincing the world that we are here by nature and not by choice. Flaws like the fact it is seen as a defect. How many gay babies would be aborted if they figured out a way to tell we would be gay? Any subtle or not-so-subtle eugenics movement would weed us out if they could find the markers.

Maybe for some it's a choice and for some it's not. It's annoying to me she's been backlashed for stating what's true for her.

[*Anya*]

My personal belief is that being gay is not a choice for me. Before I was 10 I was attracted to girls, not boys. I took a circuitous route to coming out due to fear of admitting to myself what I really was and having the courage to say outloud that I was a lesbian.

Do I also agree with Kinsey and his identification of a continuum of 100% straight on one side of the scale and 100% homosexual on the other end of the scale-with many folks in between? Yes, of course.

As I read her comments, she specifically states that being gay, for her, is a choice. I can't prove or disprove that for her, as that is how she sees herself.

Does it concern me that the religious right and those that hate us, will seize on that comment as "proof" that we choose to be gay and could be straight if we only wanted to be?

Yes, that is my sole concern with her comments.

(Judge not, lest ye be judged-sorry my Lutheran upbringing just sprang to mind).

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Vlasta, has a right to her opinion and has a right to feel the way she does about Bisexuals, albeit not a popular opinion today. Just 25 years ago it was a very popular feeling. Instead of blasting and attacking anyone who has a difference of opinion, it helps to be patient and maybe help them to better understand another positive side to something that they may not be aware of or have experienced first hand. People have a tendency to judge a person or a situation by their own experiences. If you have had a positive experience, SHARE IT!

It's amazing how much we see this all the time over the last decade in online discussions. When someone has a difference of opinion, instead of looking at it as a time to attack it could be used as a time to educate. If you don't want to educate in a patient manner then back away once you've said you disagree with them. Building bridges and widening roads. We don't get there by saying you have to walk down this narrow path with me and think and act and be just like me, right now in this moment, and you are not allowed to grow at your own pace, and if you can't keep up then GET OFF the road. I hate that way of thinking more than I hate a rusty dusty opinion. A rusty dusty opinion can be changed faster than a controlling person.

The Gay Community grew from being Anti-Bisexual, because some of us stopped, listened, accepted, and educated others that not all Bisexuals are out to hurt, or harm, or use you. And not all Bisexuals are confused. These are all old out-dated sterotype ideas based on a Gay or Lesbian's (or anyone elses) unpleasant past experiences. It created a fear of Bisexuals. I believe that the interenet also helped to educate many quickly that Bisexuals come in many different flavors just like the rest of us. My theory anyway is 70% of the population is Bisexual. LoL.

Another interesting fact...

Just a couple of months ago, driving down the road here in Texas, I was passing through radio stations when I paused long enough to hear a local Pastor/Minister say: "All Lesbians have been sexually abused"! I thought, Oh NO he didn't just say that... but, the truth is even that outdated thought process is still rapant in the Christian Community. The Pastor then went on to say he knew this because he was told by a Pastor of one of the largest Churches with the largest followings in America (I would like to know who this Pastor is!!!!). He also said, that this well-known Pastor said, EVERY Lesbian he has Counseled with has ALWAYS been sexually abused. NO WONDER THEY THINK IT"S A CHOICE!!!!! That explains why some of my Christian relatives in the past asked me if this was true for me, for GOD's sake!!! He was probably their Minister!! LoL.That damned Pastor!!! Anyway the point of this Pastor's message was for his listeners to have compassion on Lesbians and stop the hate and start helping them come back to Jesus.

So there is still lots of work to do, North, South, East and West, but it won't be worked out with hate and impatience against lack of education.

[The_Lady_Snow]

25 years ago homosexual = pedophile, no one was "attacking" Vlasta, her opinion is incorrect about bisexuals. We can post our thoughts and if our thoughts are incorrect they be challenged. Her words were heavy, had this been said about say butches I'm pretty sure you'd challenge her opinion as well.

[ButchEire]

This makes sense though, because it's entirely possible that every lesbian who has sought his counsel has indeed been sexually abused. A lesbian who has not been sexually abused, in contrast, probably wouldn't be seeking help. He is twisting the meaning behind the behavior to fit his schema or his intention, but his experience is likely accurate.


Driving down the road here in Texas, I was passing through radio stations when I paused long enough to hear a local Pastor/Minister say: "All Lesbians have been sexually abused"! I thought, Oh NO he didn't just say that... but, the truth is even that outdated thought process is still rapant in the Christian Community. The Pastor then went on to say he knew this because he was told by a Pastor of one of the largest Churches with the largest followings in America (I would like to know who this Pastor is!!!!). He also said, that this well-known Pastor said, EVERY Lesbian he has Counseled with has ALWAYS been sexually abused. NO WONDER THEY THINK IT"S A CHOICE!!!!! That explains why some of my Christian relatives in the past asked me if this was true for me, for GOD's sake!!! He was probably their Minister!! LoL.That damned Pastor!!! Anyway the point of this Pastor's message was for his listeners to have compassion on Lesbians and stop the hate and start helping them come back to Jesus.

So there is still lots of work to do, North, South, East and West, but it won't be worked out with hate and impatience against lack of education.

[betenoire]

If you have had a positive experience, SHARE IT!

Please, just fucking please no.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

This makes sense though, because it's entirely possible that every lesbian who has sought his counsel has indeed been sexually abused. A lesbian who has not been sexually abused, in contrast, probably wouldn't be seeking help. He is twisting the meaning behind the behavior to fit his schema or his intention, but his experience is likely accurate.

I couldn't imagine that such a large church would not have encountered other types of Lesbians other than abused Lesbians. But maybe that is the case, or maybe he is furthering his agenda on who Lesbians are. A prime example of someone making general blanket judgements about others without additional exploration.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Please, just fucking please no.

...........LoL!

[ButchEire]

A healthy (by healthy, I mean no immediate psychological or spiritual issues in this case) person won't have a reason to seek counsel, so his representative sample is already biased. He's basing his supposition on the lesbians in his church who seek help, not the ones who simply attend his services. It's akin to making an assumption about the people who seek any kind of counseling and ignoring the people who simply walk past the door. They are both a part of the larger population and not mutually exclusive.

I couldn't imagine that such a large church would not have encountered other types of Lesbians other than abused Lesbians.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

25 years ago homosexual = pedophile, no one was "attacking" Vlasta, her opinion is incorrect about bisexuals. We can post our thoughts and if our thoughts are incorrect they be challenged. Her words were heavy, had this been said about say butches I'm pretty sure you'd challenge her opinion as well.

2012 Homosexual still = pedophile for some.

I lived in Atlanta during that time, and Gays were very very popular there and also in other major cities. Granted not so popular in other areas, most often not in smaller cities and towns as often still the case today.

I do understand that Vlasta's words would be very heavy to you or anyone who is Bisexual or anyone else for other reasons. Maybe to you Lady Snow no one was attacking Vlasta, but there were statements that I read, that felt to me as an attack. And I wont go and nit pick them out. And yes, I would be right here and willing to educate and debate if it were about Butches, MtFs, FtMs, or for anyone else that I felt an understanding of the subject. I am all for healthy debates. That is were we grow.

[Sparx1_1]

I have a bigger issue with the comments that I've seen here than the comments that Cynthia Nixon made.

The misinformation, prejudice and outright hatred towards bisexuals has been downright disgusting.

The fact is that there are a huge number of gays and lesbians who consider themselves gay by "choice".
The other fact is that whether or not we were born this way, it hasn't actually been proven yet.

There are exactly two options here - choice or genetics. Expressing this level of hatred towards anyone who chooses to stand behind the (currently) less popular option is unbelievable disturbing.

It took me 4 seconds to find this quote from Cynthia Nixon:
"In terms of sexual orientation I don't really feel I've changed... I'd been with men all my life, and I'd never fallen in love with a woman. But when I did, it didn't seem so strange. I'm just a woman in love with another woman."

If I had to compare the two statements and pass a judgement I would say that she is someone who has enjoyed the freedom to simply be who she is and never had to give it too much thought at all.

[Turtle]

One of my favorite ministers says "If you're here, you're Queer." (The Rev. Dr. Lea Brown, formerly of MCC San Francisco, currently at MCC Palm Beaches)

For me, Queer is Queer, is Queer.

People sometimes talk about an evolution in my sexuality...and I think that it is often really an evolution of thought and perception. And without the discussion, without many discussions, we don't know the variance that is possible and then it is much more difficult to form a shift. More openness in language and position facilitates the process, although it can be annoying to the folk who want you to take a stand.

Never a dull moment dealing with these human beings...

[Quintease]

We all knew that 'gay by choice' usually means bi or homoflexible.

But it's her choice to use the word bisexual as she is very correct that it is thought badly of.

There are very few gay people who are here by choice HOWEVER, why should this matter? Why are we better, more acceptable, more correct by being 'born this way'? By having the choice taken out of our hands, by making the best of a bad situation? Why?

Why shouldn't a boy or girl who has a choice, be able to choose? 'The implication being that noone would choose to be gay, unless they are sick, demented or just dishonest with themselves.

I'm glad Cynthia said what she did. Good on her for starting the discussion.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

OMG.. this picture almost made me want to cry! Have you seen this yet? I don't know if I can make it show up here, because I'm behind the times like that sometimes, Lol.

A Christian group shows up to a Chicago Gay Pride parade holding apologetic signs including "I'm sorry for how the church treated you".


http://imgur.com/bVD9p


If it doesn't work here it is... http://imgur.com/bVD9p

[blush]

It would be interesting to start conversations with straight people about when they choose to be straight.

[VintageFemme]

I've heard it said that we are all either homosexual with heterosexual tendencies or heterosexual with homosexual tendencies. I was friends with a woman a long time ago who defined herself as straight yet she was living with and deeply in love with, another woman. She explained to me that she identified as a straight woman who happened to fall in love with a gay woman and that if something were to ever happen to her partner, she would not in fact pursue or date other women rather she would go back to her hetero lifestyle of dating men exclusively. I have been in love twice in my life. Once with a woman and once with a man. Do I consider myself bisexual? No, I do not. Do I think I have a choice in who I love? I absolutely do not. I am a walking breathing witness to that. I don't know if being gay is a choice that we consciously make or not, I'm inclined to think it isn't strictly personally speaking, but I do know that who we love is not a choice. I think sometimes sexuality is fluid and we continually grow and evolve in this business of being human, and in that I applaud anyone and everyone who knowingly explores every facet of their heart, soul, and sexuality.

[blush]

Vlasta, has a right to her opinion and has a right to feel the way she does about Bisexuals, albeit not a popular opinion today. Just 25 years ago it was a very popular feeling. Instead of blasting and attacking anyone who has a difference of opinion, it helps to be patient and maybe help them to better understand another positive side to something that they may not be aware of or have experienced first hand. People have a tendency to judge a person or a situation by their own experiences. If you have had a positive experience, SHARE IT!

It's amazing how much we see this all the time over the last decade in online discussions. When someone has a difference of opinion, instead of looking at it as a time to attack it could be used as a time to educate. If you don't want to educate in a patient manner then back away once you've said you disagree with them. Building bridges and widening roads. We don't get there by saying you have to walk down this narrow path with me and think and act and be just like me, right now in this moment, and you are not allowed to grow at your own pace, and if you can't keep up then GET OFF the road. I hate that way of thinking more than I hate a rusty dusty opinion. A rusty dusty opinion can be changed faster than a controlling person.

The Gay Community grew from being Anti-Bisexual, because some of us stopped, listened, accepted, and educated others that not all Bisexuals are out to hurt, or harm, or use you. And not all Bisexuals are confused. These are all old out-dated sterotype ideas based on a Gay or Lesbian's (or anyone elses) unpleasant past experiences. It created a fear of Bisexuals. I believe that the interenet also helped to educate many quickly that Bisexuals come in many different flavors just like the rest of us. My theory anyway is 70% of the population is Bisexual. LoL.

Another interesting fact...

Just a couple of months ago, driving down the road here in Texas, I was passing through radio stations when I paused long enough to hear a local Pastor/Minister say: "All Lesbians have been sexually abused"! I thought, Oh NO he didn't just say that... but, the truth is even that outdated thought process is still rapant in the Christian Community. The Pastor then went on to say he knew this because he was told by a Pastor of one of the largest Churches with the largest followings in America (I would like to know who this Pastor is!!!!). He also said, that this well-known Pastor said, EVERY Lesbian he has Counseled with has ALWAYS been sexually abused. NO WONDER THEY THINK IT"S A CHOICE!!!!! That explains why some of my Christian relatives in the past asked me if this was true for me, for GOD's sake!!! He was probably their Minister!! LoL.That damned Pastor!!! Anyway the point of this Pastor's message was for his listeners to have compassion on Lesbians and stop the hate and start helping them come back to Jesus.

So there is still lots of work to do, North, South, East and West, but it won't be worked out with hate and impatience against lack of education.

This is not a difference of opinion, to me. Saying you don't like a particular radio station is a difference of opinion. Stating that bisexuals are a threat to queer society (I'm paraphrasing as I understood Vlasta's comment) is going to elicit a strong response. As it should. If this kind of comment was leveled by a right wing minister, would we write it off as a harmless difference of opinion?

Sometimes it feels like we are a bunch of crabs in boiling water trying to climb out of the pot. When one group starts to climb out, they get pulled back down. These types of comments about bisexual people pull all of us down.

[AtLast]

Scientific inquiry has certainly pointed to the genetic, biological bases of all sexuality- and actually points to an awful lot of support for it being quite fluid. Personally, I am not going to judge anyone's belief system about their sexuality- nor their sexuality along the scale of uman sexuality.

I do, wish, however, that we all did a lot more reseach on what has been uncovered about sexuality in recent years.

[T4Texas]

I have a bigger issue with the comments that I've seen here than the comments that Cynthia Nixon made.

There are exactly two options here - choice or genetics. Expressing this level of hatred towards anyone who chooses to stand behind the (currently) less popular option is unbelievable disturbing.

.



Perhaps we should all be concerned with how to conduct ourselves now that we are here, rather than how we got here. At the end of the day we are still gay and still oppressed by some sections of society so its up to us to make the difference because the religious right surely wont.

[Kobi]

We all knew that 'gay by choice' usually means bi or homoflexible.

But it's her choice to use the word bisexual as she is very correct that it is thought badly of.

There are very few gay people who are here by choice HOWEVER, why should this matter? Why are we better, more acceptable, more correct by being 'born this way'? By having the choice taken out of our hands, by making the best of a bad situation? Why?

Why shouldn't a boy or girl who has a choice, be able to choose? 'The implication being that noone would choose to be gay, unless they are sick, demented or just dishonest with themselves.

I'm glad Cynthia said what she did. Good on her for starting the discussion.


I didnt know "gay by choice" usually means bi or homoflexible. I never heard homoflexible either. What does it mean? Is there a heteroflexible?

Thinking out loud and trying to sort it out in my head....I find questions swirling around up there like..... Is sexual orientation determined by who we choose to fuck at a certain time in our lives or is it something more? What does it mean to Cynthia to call herself gay by choice rather than a lesbian by choice? Is there a difference? If Cynthia and her girlfriend break up, will she simply unchoose to be gay? Or would she be choosing to be ungay Is there such a thing as episodic gayness? If I, god help me, ever decide to have a relationship with a man, does that mean I am no longer a lesbian? Does that make me a hetero?

Is gay by choice different from gay by preference i.e. those who are equally attracted to both sexes but prefer one over the other? Are people in prison who have only one sex to choose from considered gay by circumstance?

How does all this impact gay or questioning kids today? How does it affect any kid who is becoming sexual and experiementing. It confuses the crap out of me and I have been at this for a while now.

[Corkey]

I don't allow anyone to decide how I identify, she may speak for herself, she can not speak for the rest of us. Actors have a stage, we give it to them, take the stage away and they are just the same as everyone else. Would any of us give another person the right to define us? I think not. Her decision to id as what ever she id's as is her choice, in that it is a choice. Who she sleeps with, or has a physical relationship with is none of my concern. If we think she speaks for us, then we've given her our power. I haven't and she doesn't.

[Martina]

This is not about Vlasta -- at all.

But i don't think that we should let comments like that stand. It's no different, IMO, from a racist or sexist remark.

It doesn't belong here. We can feel however we feel, but we don't get to say it everywhere.

People can publish their own site or blog or whatever or go to one that hates bisexuals. But that's not us.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

I didnt know "gay by choice" usually means bi or homoflexible. I never heard homoflexible either. What does it mean? Is there a heteroflexible?

Thinking out loud and trying to sort it out in my head....I find questions swirling around up there like..... Is sexual orientation determined by who we choose to fuck at a certain time in our lives or is it something more? What does it mean to Cynthia to call herself gay by choice rather than a lesbian by choice? Is there a difference? If Cynthia and her girlfriend break up, will she simply unchoose to be gay? Or would she be choosing to be ungay Is there such a thing as episodic gayness? If I, god help me, ever decide to have a relationship with a man, does that mean I am no longer a lesbian? Does that make me a hetero?

Is gay by choice different from gay by preference i.e. those who are equally attracted to both sexes but prefer one over the other? Are people in prison who have only one sex to choose from considered gay by circumstance?

How does all this impact gay or questioning kids today? How does it affect any kid who is becoming sexual and experiementing. It confuses the crap out of me and I have been at this for a while now.

Yes, there is now Heteroflexible. All good questions, Kobi.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

This is not a difference of opinion, to me. Saying you don't like a particular radio station is a difference of opinion. Stating that bisexuals are a threat to queer society (I'm paraphrasing as I understood Vlasta's comment) is going to elicit a strong response. As it should. If this kind of comment was leveled by a right wing minister, would we write it off as a harmless difference of opinion?

Sometimes it feels like we are a bunch of crabs in boiling water trying to climb out of the pot. When one group starts to climb out, they get pulled back down. These types of comments about bisexual people pull all of us down.

Blush, I disagree. For someone to say, "Bi's are harming the Gay Community". ...or "Transgendered people are harming the Gay Community". ...or "Gays are destroying the sanctity of Marriage". ...or "Being Gay is a choice". To me all of those are opinions and opinions can change either by personal experience or a change in perspective by some other mind or heart bending situation. Peoples minds over the decades keep changing, stretching and expanding, in turn creating more acceptance for all of us. And I don't look at any of the statements above as harmless. They can be damaging. And through the carnage, understanding can come. It sucks that mental and emotional battlegrounds exist. Too bad everyone couldn't be born with a knowning of all. Instead we are faced with an existence of educating each other on our differences if we choose to.

[Corkey]

I like facts, 'cause everyone has an opinion. Bi's are no more hurtful than any other segment of the lgBtq spectrum. This site is more open than any other site, and if someone wants to have an opinion that is different than the rest, perhaps they'd best be prepared to back up why they have a particular opinion. I don't tend to hand out passes for opinions which degrade anyones identity.
Me having an opinion.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

This is not about Vlasta -- at all.

But i don't think that we should let comments like that stand. It's no different, IMO, from a racist or sexist remark.

It doesn't belong here. We can feel however we feel, but we don't get to say it everywhere.

People can publish their own site or blog or whatever or go to one that hates bisexuals. But that's not us.

If we kicked everyone out that said something that offended us whether it be racist, sexist, ageist, classist, anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-american, anti-you-name-it-anything, how would we learn from each other and grow as a community? If someone says something and their point of view is challenged and they continue to knowingly go on and hurt others with their words than I can see where that type of a person may get themselves to a point of no return. But until then, I believe give that person a chance to learn. If it's a valid opinion I want to hear it. I would like people to feel safe to voice that opinion even if it isn't a popular opinion. Some of us have the patience to teach.

[Martina]

Who said anything about kicking people out?

If we kicked everyone out that said something that offended us whether it be racist, sexist, ageist, classist, anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-american, anti-you-name-it-anything, how would we learn from each other and grow as a community?

[blush]

Blush, I disagree. For someone to say, "Bi's are harming the Gay Community". ...or "Transgendered people are harming the Gay Community". ...or "Gays are destroying the sanctity of Marriage". ...or "Being Gay is a choice". To me all of those are opinions and opinions can change either by personal experience or a change in perspective by some other mind or heart bending situation. Peoples minds over the decades keep changing, stretching and expanding, in turn creating more acceptance for all of us. And I don't look at any of the statements above as harmless. They can be damaging. And through the carnage, understanding can come. It sucks that mental and emotional battlegrounds exist. Too bad everyone couldn't be born with a knowning of all. Instead we are faced with an existence of educating each other on our differences if we choose to.
I hear you. I think we just define it differently. It should always be a choice, not an obligation to educate.

[aishah]

has anyone seen this article?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/bruni-gay-wont-go-away-genetic-or-not.html?_r=2&hp

i've been thinking about responding to this thread for awhile but don't feel like i'm in a place yet where i can articulate what i really want to say. but i just saw this on facebook and thought it was really interesting.

[Martina]

Well, i agree that it will be a good day when we don't need the argument -- that we are born this way -- anymore. It will mean we have less need to defend ourselves.

It's hard for me to deny that it's biological though. My first erotic dream was about a woman. My romantic connections with men were ALL emotionally flat. i have been in relationships with bisexual women, and i just don't notice men the way they do. i don't react. That is really the only difference between us. But it is real. I can't imagine feeling what they do. It seems strange to me. Not strange yucky. Just something i can't relate to.

This has nothing to do with my ability to connect with men as friends. But it is pronounced. Undeniable. From the beginning.

[Chancie]

If we kicked everyone out that said something that offended us whether it be racist, sexist, ageist, classist, anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-american, anti-you-name-it-anything, how would we learn from each other and grow as a community? If someone says something and their point of view is challenged and they continue to knowingly go on and hurt others with their words than I can see where that type of a person may get themselves to a point of no return. But until then, I believe give that person a chance to learn. If it's a valid opinion I want to hear it. I would like people to feel safe to voice that opinion even if it isn't a popular opinion. Some of us have the patience to teach.

I have nothing to learn from someone who is "racist, sexist, ageist, classist, anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-american, anti-you-name-it-anything" and follows it with, and that's just what I believe, too bad.

Except maybe to keep them away from vulnerable children.

[Kobi]

I have nothing to learn from someone who is "racist, sexist, ageist, classist, anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-american, anti-you-name-it-anything" and follows it with, and that's just what I believe, too bad.

Except maybe to keep them away from vulnerable children.



I tend to see it a little differently.

I prefer a healthy dose of difference. I find when I dont venture out of my comfort zone, I get bored, stagnant, and intellectually rusty.

I also find people who think differently than me have much to teach me. They teach me tolerance which is a huge asset in a very diverse world. They also teach me patience and who cant afford to be more patient. But, most of all, they teach me a lot about the person I am and the person I strive to be.

[Gemme]

I have nothing to learn from someone who is "racist, sexist, ageist, classist, anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-american, anti-you-name-it-anything" and follows it with, and that's just what I believe, too bad.

Except maybe to keep them away from vulnerable children.

I agree.

The underlined part is what gets me. Yes, we are all free to express our opinions, be they right or wrong or mired in some gray muck inbetween, however, if one cannot take a moment to say, "And this is why...." then not only do I not hold ANY value in what they said (be it a learning experience for me or an opportunity to educate someone who may need it) but it feels like nothing more than shit stirring.

To hone in on the thread topic, I feel Cynthia has the right to love who she wants and to do it in the fashion she wants, but I really do wish she would word things differently. Someone mentioned the 'man boobs' thing and I remember cringing when I heard that. PC, she is not.

[Quintease]

Is there a heteroflexible?

Yes. It's people who have labels, but don't feel the need to restrict themselves because of those labels.

[The_Lady_Snow]

As a Latina Queer Woman I get sick and fucking tired of having to educate peoples ignorant statements... It gets old.. It's not that hard to think before you speak and check your isms at the door.

[Kobi]

Yes. It's people who have labels, but don't feel the need to restrict themselves because of those labels.



Ok but I still am not sure I am understanding what homoflexible and heteroflexible refers to. Are you saying this means someone who is primarily one but may occasionally be the other?

How does homo/hetero flexible differ from the older concept of bisexual? Or is it the new terminology for bisexual?

[WolfyOne]

Well I do like cake as much as the next person, but you are wicked out of line. You're not talking about Arwen, fine. But you -are- talking about me.

In the future I would appreciate it if you would either back your ugliness up or back your ugliness off. Pick one. (Meaning - if you're not prepared to explain or examine your ugliness try and keep it to yourself.)


Is it wrong for someone to express their thoughts without being afraid?
We all have our own opinions and share our personal thoughts.
It doesn't mean we want to get into a pissing contest with anyone else.
Some of us are good at debates and can explain what we mean, others can't.
I personally don't like pissing contests.
We will always agree to disagree or disagree to agree.

I have an ex that once told me, it's not about being with man or woman that defines who she is, it's who she falls in love with. That day, I opened my eyes and actually heard and understood what she was saying. She put no labels on herself because you can't tell the heart who it can or can not love.

For myself, I don't know if I was born this way. I grew up in a society in an era when you were told that marrying a man and having a family is what was expected of women. My dad was a cop, I was not defiant back then because I knew it would only lead to an ass whooping. I can honestly say, I grew up a tomboy, but at 17 was married and by 19 divorced. I was on a 2 year journey trying to figure out why I didn't like sex or being touched by men. A straight friend of mine sat me down with a bottle of wine one night and we talked for hours. She opened me up to a world I never knew existed because I was really sheltered from it as a kid. Honestly, as a kid, I never knew gay existed. Another friend used to call me a baby bitch in the making and I had to have her tell me what she meant. This is part of my journey, this is my story, this is my truth. I wouldn't change the me I became on my journey for anyone. So, was I born this way or was it a choice?

[betenoire]

The underlined part is what gets me. Yes, we are all free to express our opinions, be they right or wrong or mired in some gray muck inbetween, however, if one cannot take a moment to say, "And this is why...." then not only do I not hold ANY value in what they said (be it a learning experience for me or an opportunity to educate someone who may need it) but it feels like nothing more than shit stirring.

Exactly. My new worldview this week really is "back it up or back it off".

Is it wrong for someone to express their thoughts without being afraid?
We all have our own opinions and share our personal thoughts.
It doesn't mean we want to get into a pissing contest with anyone else.
Some of us are good at debates and can explain what we mean, others can't.
I personally don't like pissing contests.
We will always agree to disagree or disagree to agree.

As far as I'm concerned, anybody who drops a hateful bomb and then refuses to engage beyond their one-liner is trolling.

[WolfyOne]

As far as I'm concerned, anybody who drops a hateful bomb and then refuses to engage beyond their one-liner is trolling.

Bet, I get what you're saying, but not everyone can put in words why they think what they think. I'm not making excuses for anyone, it's just how some are. Like me, I'm better writing my thoughts than speaking face to face. I don't know why, but it is. I have learned a lot just by reading what others have posted in this thread. My verbal words may come out tongue twisted but my written word is usually pretty darn good. I do think to ask someone why they feel as they do may be a private issue. We all have baggage, just some of choose to check it at the door before we enter a room. If I'm so upset or concerned over what a person posts and they don't want to elaborate in another post, I may want to PM them and ask. I personally have a lot of old baggage I keep locked away. Sometimes someone says something or I read something that brings it to the surface. It makes me think about it, but am leery to talk or write about it. I don't know if any of this makes sense to you, but it does in my mind. I wasn't jumping on you, but I think you already know that :)

[CherylNYC]

Ok but I still am not sure I am understanding what homoflexible and heteroflexible refers to. Are you saying this means someone who is primarily one but may occasionally be the other?

How does homo/hetero flexible differ from the older concept of bisexual? Or is it the new terminology for bisexual?



Yes, that's my understanding. A gay man who may occasionally dally with women, but whose primary sexual and romantic interest lies with men, may call himself homoflexible. And vice-versa. My understanding is that some people don't like to use 'bisexual' because the word implies that there are two genders.

That said, people just loooove to try on IDs, find them too restrictive, and then demand that the label expand to meet who they feel they are. Once that happens, new labels are invented once again.

[Soon]

"[T]he born-this-way approach carries an unintended implication that the behavior of gays and lesbians needs biological grounding to evade condemnation. Why should it? Our laws safeguard religious freedom, and that’s not because there’s a Presbyterian, Buddhist or Mormon gene. There’s only a tradition and theology that you elect or decline to follow. But this country has deemed worshiping in a way that feels consonant with who you are to be essential to a person’s humanity. So it’s protected. Our laws also safeguard the right to bear arms: not exactly a biological imperative. Among adults, the right to love whom you’re moved to love — and to express it through sex and maybe, yes, marriage — is surely as vital to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as a Glock. And it’s a lot less likely to cause injury, if that’s a deciding factor: how a person’s actions affect the community around him or her." - New York Times columnist

Frank Bruni, on Cynthia Nixon's controversial comments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/bruni-gay-wont-go-away-genetic-or-not.html?_r=1

[AtLast]

Interesting how the chicken & egg paradigm or the nature/nurture debate continues- no matter the population.

It isn't the debate or choosing to buy into one or the other that is important to me. The discussion is. And discussions that are not filled with negative judgement.

Bi-sexuality has been one of the most negatively judged forms of sexuality as I have developed through various stages of queerdom (speaking individually).

Although I personally embrace the bio-physiological nature of sexuality, I respect those that do not.

I find bi-bashing disturbing as an individual.

[Martina]

This is not an opinion like "meat is murder," which could challenge you and take you out of your comfort zone. It is an opinion that makes it conveys hatred toward members of our community. If we are committed to including bisexuals among our members, then we need to do what we can to prevent statements like that from being made. People can think and feel whatever they like. They can explore and research and discuss with friends. But to make a statement like that where there are undoubtedly bisexuals is to knowingly risk hurting and alienating others. i do not think that is what we want to do here.

There's nothing "healthy" about that kind of remark.



I tend to see it a little differently.

I prefer a healthy dose of difference. I find when I dont venture out of my comfort zone, I get bored, stagnant, and intellectually rusty.

I also find people who think differently than me have much to teach me. They teach me tolerance which is a huge asset in a very diverse world. They also teach me patience and who cant afford to be more patient. But, most of all, they teach me a lot about the person I am and the person I strive to be.

[Kobi]

This is not an opinion like "meat is murder," which could challenge you and take you out of your comfort zone. It is an opinion that makes it conveys hatred toward members of our community. If we are committed to including bisexuals among our members, then we need to do what we can to prevent statements like that from being made. People can think and feel whatever they like. They can explore and research and discuss with friends. But to make a statement like that where there are undoubtedly bisexuals is to knowingly risk hurting and alienating others. i do not think that is what we want to do here.

There's nothing "healthy" about that kind of remark.



I hear what you are saying.

I think you misunderstood what I said. Let me explain.

Like it or not, people come with preconceived notions, thoughts, beliefs, feelings based on their experiences and teachings. We may not always agree with these. They might not be the type of thing we want to hear. They are obviously things that rarely go unchallenged.

To me, we can strive to just stop stuff like this from occuring because it offends us. Hence the goal might be seen as to just shut someone up.

Or, we can have a different type of goal. Changing someones heart is more lasting and more beneficial and advantageous to the whole. To me, that is a heathy response and coming out of ones comfort zone. It is a royal pain in the ass to do it, but since when have we ever backed down from a challenge?

I base this on my own experiences. I came here with outdated knowledge and a lot of stuff that was challenged a great deal. I didnt understand a lot of what the challenge was about until I was given the knowledge as to why something was seen as this or that. It taught me a lot. It made me and still makes me see things differently. It makes me more mindful and careful when posting stuff.

To me, the healthy part, is not what was initially done, but how we choose to deal with it and why we choose this way.

Perhaps this makes it clearer?

[Gemme]

Bet, I get what you're saying, but not everyone can put in words why they think what they think. I'm not making excuses for anyone, it's just how some are. Like me, I'm better writing my thoughts than speaking face to face. I don't know why, but it is. I have learned a lot just by reading what others have posted in this thread. My verbal words may come out tongue twisted but my written word is usually pretty darn good. I do think to ask someone why they feel as they do may be a private issue. We all have baggage, just some of choose to check it at the door before we enter a room. If I'm so upset or concerned over what a person posts and they don't want to elaborate in another post, I may want to PM them and ask. I personally have a lot of old baggage I keep locked away. Sometimes someone says something or I read something that brings it to the surface. It makes me think about it, but am leery to talk or write about it. I don't know if any of this makes sense to you, but it does in my mind. I wasn't jumping on you, but I think you already know that :)

You, my friend, have taken the time and effort to explain yourself (and you do just fine). I know that I personally was specifically referring to the 'this is what I think/feel and I don't have to say anything else about it, so there' issue.

In a forum like this, one cannot say something....anything...and not be prepared to discuss it in some manner. That's the price we pay for the privilege of being able to post our beliefs. Others may inquire about them or challenge them or expound upon them. Once we hit submit our thoughts belong to the great WWW.

[nowandthen]

I have read several articles and find Ms. Nixion's comment to be truthful. The falseness of Enlightenment ERA science and many of the modalities/pathologies born of that time is that they constructed and spurred the need to define "natural" as a location "normal". For me any form of biological essentialistism is scary as it permits a binary expectation of human variance.
There are not two choices, this is the fundamental issue, trying to erase difference by constructing false expectations of "other" as only two. The scientific method in its need to name and prove, prove's by excluding difference, not by acknowledging difference.
One may be born gay or not, just as one may be born bi or not. The social construction of difference as needing to be in a hierarchy is about power, specifically economic power.

[apretty]

I have read several articles and find Ms. Nixion's comment to be truthful. The falseness of Enlightenment ERA science and many of the modalities/pathologies born of that time is that they constructed and spurred the need to define "natural" as a location "normal". For me any form of biological essentialistism is scary as it permits a binary expectation of human variance.
There are not two choices, this is the fundamental issue, trying to erase difference by constructing false expectations of "other" as only two. The scientific method in its need to name and prove, prove's by excluding difference, not by acknowledging difference.
One may be born gay or not, just as one may be born bi or not. The social construction of difference as needing to be in a hierarchy is about power, specifically economic power.

Clearly, you're flirting.

[AtLast]

Genetic or Not, Gay Won’t Go Away
By FRANK BRUNI
Published: January 28, 2012

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/bruni-gay-wont-go-away-genetic-or-not.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share

[MsTinkerbelly]

Cynthia Nixon Releases Statement to Clear Up Controversial Gay Comments.
Next.RadarOnline, Monday, January 30, 2012, 12:00pm (PST)

By Amber Goodhand - Radar Reporter


Cynthia Nixon recently caused a stir when she did an interview with The New York Times in which she said for her, homosexuality is a choice.


But now she's taken it a step further, giving a statement to The Advocate to explain what she meant in the interview -- saying bisexuality is not a choice, but her decision to be in a homosexual relationship is.


"My recent comments in The New York Times were about me and my personal story of being gay. I believe we all have different ways we came to the gay community and we can't and shouldn't be pigeon-holed into one cultural narrative which can be uninclusive and disempowering," Cynthia said.


"However, to the extent that anyone wishes to interpret my words in a strictly legal context I would like to clarify: While I don't often use the word, the technically precise term for my orientation is bisexual. I believe bisexuality is not a choice, it is a fact. What I have 'chosen' is to be in a gay relationship."


Earlier this month Cynthia told The New York Times: "I gave a speech recently, an empowerment speech to a gay audience, and it included the line 'I've been straight and I've been gay, and gay is better.' And they tried to get me to change it, because they said it implies that homosexuality can be a choice. And for me, it is a choice."


The notion that being gay is a choice is something that has ruffled the feathers of the LGBT community for quite some time, as most believe their sexual orientation is something inherited at birth and is not a choice, just as much as heterosexuality is not a choice.


"As I said in the Times and will say again here, I do, however, believe that most members of our community -- as well as the majority of heterosexuals -- cannot and do not choose the gender of the persons with whom they seek to have intimate relationships because, unlike me, they are only attracted to one sex," Cynthia continued in her statement to The Advocate.


"Our community is not a monolith, thank goodness, any more than America itself is. I look forward to and will continue to work toward the day when America recognizes all of us as full and equal citizens."

[cinderella]

Who in their right mind would 'choose' to be gay??!!*

Hell, not me, that's for sure. I would have loved to have been born with blue eyes instead of brown, but it is what it is. I would have preferred to have been born straight, but I wasn't. I just thank God that in spite of all the adversity being gay has brought upon me, I have stood fast in my convictions. I cannot be what I am not.

Cynthia, give me a break!!

*Speaking from a pre-Stonewall days place, when being gay was far from easy - it was down right dangerous! I guess the stigma has never left me...

[Kobi]

Who in their right mind would 'choose' to be gay??!!*

Hell, not me, that's for sure. I would have loved to have been born with blue eyes instead of brown, but it is what it is. I would have preferred to have been born straight, but I wasn't. I just thank God that in spite of all the adversity being gay has brought upon me, I have stood fast in my convictions. I cannot be what I am not.

Cynthia, give me a break!!

*Speaking from a pre-Stonewall days place, when being gay was far from easy - it was down right dangerous! I guess the stigma has never left me...


I think I understand what you are saying. I feel I have the privilege of walking on a different path because of the struggles and sacrifices of those who came before me. What they endured is almost a visceral part of me. And, it just feels to me, that I have the obligation and responsibility to honor the memory of them and what they did.

I wouldnt mind choosing to walk the lesbian path again. I would, however, choose to be born about 30 years later. I expect it would have been a pretty different experience.

I give Cynthia credit for clarifying things. Tho, I am seeing she has the same tripping over words/definitions I usually go thru. Saying she is a bisexual who is choosing to be in a gay relationship seems clearer and has a more accurate feel to it.

I still want to know why she sticks with using "gay" and "homosexual" rather than using "lesbian" tho.

[CherylNYC]

Who in their right mind would 'choose' to be gay??!!*

Hell, not me, that's for sure. I would have loved to have been born with blue eyes instead of brown, but it is what it is. I would have preferred to have been born straight, but I wasn't. I just thank God that in spite of all the adversity being gay has brought upon me, I have stood fast in my convictions. I cannot be what I am not.

Cynthia, give me a break!!

*Speaking from a pre-Stonewall days place, when being gay was far from easy - it was down right dangerous! I guess the stigma has never left me...

Well, I would. I've certainly had to struggle as a consequence of being a lesbian. Yes, I've been discriminated against. Yes, I was very confused at first, but I thank the Goddess on nearly a daily basis that I was born a lesbian.

The biggest reason I would choose to be gay if given the option, is that I don't have to seek partnership from among the available stock of heterosexual men. I'm sure there are plenty of nice straight men. Somewhere. I do know a few, but most of the straight men I work with and meet on a daily basis act like... men. I'm often astonished and baffled by their behaviours. They don't make sense to me, and I sometimes need a translator to explain their motives. Really. Plus, for the last 49 and 1/2 years I've been fighting off threatening, unwanted sexual attention from them. So much so that I've come to expect straight men to act like jerks, and I'm relieved when they don't. I don't hate them, I just expect certain levels of behaviour from them, and they mostly fulfill my expectations.

Why else would I choose to be gay? Because in my protected corner of the world in an artist's community in NYC, I have friends and associations with other gay people who are SUPER cool, that I would otherwise never have made, because we're all members of 'the club'. My extraordinary life would have been a lot more pedestrian had I been just another straight person.

Finally, I'm sooooo relieved that I don't have to worry about being feminine enough to catch a man. I ride and fix motorcycles, and my work as a sculptor is very dirty and physical. I may doubt myself at times, but I have never had a butch woman tell me that they're anything but impressed. Straight men are mostly frightened by a woman like me, which works really well for me as a lesbian, but that would really bum me out if I were interested in them romantically.

YES, I would choose to be a lesbian, and I know quite a few straight women who wish they could make that choice for themselves.

[DapperButch]

Well, I would. I've certainly had to struggle as a consequence of being a lesbian. Yes, I've been discriminated against. Yes, I was very confused at first, but I thank the Goddess on nearly a daily basis that I was born a lesbian.

The biggest reason I would choose to be gay if given the option, is that I don't have to seek partnership from among the available stock of heterosexual men. I'm sure there are plenty of nice straight men. Somewhere. I do know a few, but most of the straight men I work with and meet on a daily basis act like... men. I'm often astonished and baffled by their behaviours. They don't make sense to me, and I sometimes need a translator to explain their motives. Really. Plus, for the last 49 and 1/2 years I've been fighting off threatening, unwanted sexual attention from them. So much so that I've come to expect straight men to act like jerks, and I'm relieved when they don't. I don't hate them, I just expect certain levels of behaviour from them, and they mostly fulfill my expectations.

Why else would I choose to be gay? Because in my protected corner of the world in an artist's community in NYC, I have friends and associations with other gay people who are SUPER cool, that I would otherwise never have made, because we're all members of 'the club'. My extraordinary life would have been a lot more pedestrian had I been just another straight person.

Finally, I'm sooooo relieved that I don't have to worry about being feminine enough to catch a man. I ride and fix motorcycles, and my work as a sculptor is very dirty and physical. I may doubt myself at times, but I have never had a butch woman tell me that they're anything but impressed. Straight men are mostly frightened by a woman like me, which works really well for me as a lesbian, but that would really bum me out if I were interested in them romantically.

YES, I would choose to be a lesbian, and I know quite a few straight women who wish they could make that choice for themselves.

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

[apretty]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I feel slightly superior to those that think they don't have a say in the matter.

Who in their right mind would 'choose' to be gay??!!*


Also, I could never be okay with participating in a relationship out of a desire for normalcy.

And, the personal is political.

[betenoire]

Also, if being queer is the worst thing that's ever happened to you I think you live a pretty fucking charmed life.

And as someone who -does- have a choice / other potential options - I gotta say landing here isn't half bad.

[Heart]

"Here’s the problem with that argument [it's not a choice]: It hinges on the notion that what is problematic about the idea that Nixon’s gayness—or anyone else’s—being a choice, is that we shouldn’t choose it. The rhetoric of shame tells us that either LGBTQ folks had no choice and therefore are gay, or, if we had a choice and chose to be gay, we made the wrong one. But what if we made the right one? And we keep making it every day?"

http://lgbtpov.frontiersla.com/2012/01/30/lane-the-best-choice-i-ever-made-or-why-queer-is-revolutionary/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/bruni-gay-wont-go-away-genetic-or-not.html?src=tp&smid=fb-share

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Also, if being queer is the worst thing that's ever happened to you I think you live a pretty fucking charmed life.

And as someone who -does- have a choice / other potential options - I gotta say landing here isn't half bad.

Losing your family, losing loved ones, being discriminated against, losing a job or being turned down for a job, getting beaten and murdered for being Gay/Queer, being treated like a second class citizen for being Gay/Queer. I would hardly call any of these situations a charmed life.

[Quintease]

I'm pretty f**king glad I turned out to be gay.

I'm particularly glad I was born at a time when gayers were fighting for the right to be cheery.

[BullDog]

I would hardly call being a straight woman in a highly misogynist world to be a charmed life either.

I am VERY happy being a butch and lesbian and definitely wouldn't want it any other way.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

I would hardly call being a straight woman in a highly misogynist world to be a charmed life either.

I am VERY happy being a butch and lesbian and definitely wouldn't want it any other way.

BullDog, are you making a comparison of both situations: Your statement of being a Straight Woman vs. being Gay/Queer in order to support Betenoire's statement that being Queer is living a charmed life?

ANYONE who lives a fullfilling life is very fortunate. That doesn't change the fact that there are still multitudes still suffering.

[BullDog]

What I am saying is as a woman I would never choose to be straight. I do believe I was born with the predisposition of same sex attraction, but if given the choice I would most definitely choose to be a lesbian.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

What I am saying is as a woman I would never choose to be straight. I do believe I was born with the predisposition of same sex attraction, but if given the choice I would most definitely choose to be a lesbian.

I agree, even for myself. Even with the trials and tribulations I have lived through due to being Gay, I still wouldn't change being true to myself. I am always very happy to see this in others, being true to oneself, no matter the consequences.

[starryeyes]

I choose to love women, and I wouldn't change it for the world!!!

I know I was born with the "gay gene", I guess. I have a gay father and I am a lesbian. I don't think it is a coincidence. I was married before, but I do not believe I was ever straight. I was doing what I was supposed to do with a man, whom I still love and will always love no matter what.

There are so many of us out there who choose to stay married to men or stay in hetero-relationships. They are not straight, but they chose to do so because of their reasons (whatever they are).

I know I would NEVER choose to go back to that world... no way, no how. I am so happy, and I choose to be who I am, a hot-blooded femme lesbian. Growl. lol.

<3

[betenoire]

Losing your family, losing loved ones, being discriminated against, losing a job or being turned down for a job, getting beaten and murdered for being Gay/Queer, being treated like a second class citizen for being Gay/Queer. I would hardly call any of these situations a charmed life.

My first girlfriend used to do a lot of blah blah blahing about "If you've never been beaten up you don't understand what it means to be queer". Like being shit on was some sort of a homa right of passage or a badge of honour.

But I have very little patience for the "being gay is horrible" doctrine. Very little patience.

I chose to be here. I have partnered almost exclusively with women for the last 13 years. (granted, that's not a very long time but I -am- only 34.) And you know what? Since diving head-first into the "community" my life has improved immeasurably.

Have I ever been harassed? Oh you bet. Is my relationship with my parents strained and complicated now? Yep, that too. But you know what? Those things are hardly a blip on the radar compared to the world of awesome that I CHOSE to live in.

[Softhearted]

Being homosexual or bisexual is not horrible, but when you are a teenager it certainly feels like it...

If I really had a choice, I wonder if I would have choosen teenaged years feeling tomrented, depressed, suicidal, and yes, I dare to say, abnormal...

The only choice I had was either to accept it or to repress it... I repressed it until my late 20's...

[mariamma]

I came out as a lesbian at 16 but was with men for 18 years out of choice. A major issue is ... I expected the men to be as capable emotionally as women. This is why I have never felt bi or straight. I can say I love women. Can't say I love men. I like them. I respect them. I just can't have a deep, meaningful relationship with men.
I can see how Cynthia might feel similar. I can see how some women or men can choose to be with a gender that fits better with soul, spirit and mind before the body

[Gemme]

I still want to know why she sticks with using "gay" and "homosexual" rather than using "lesbian" tho.


Maybe she doesn't identify as a lesbian. Maybe she doesn't like that word or doesn't feel that it fully describes who and what she is.

I identify as Queer, not gay (although, in mixed company I have allowed it for the sake of ease of conversation and being too tired to delve into the world of gay vs. queer as it relates to me), not lesbian, and although I am a homosexual in the most basic of definitions, I do not use that word to describe myself unless I am in a clinical or sterile environment (clinic, hospital, etc).

[lettertodaddy]

Leaving the Hollywood aspect, the studies influence, and the political implications out of it, I'm interested in how many people here see their orientation, however you define it, as a choice or the destiny of biological influences.

So which has been your own personal experience?


I'm attracted to both men and women. I've dated men in the past. I was even married to one. Now I'm choosing to pursue women, and align my emotional and romantic feelings with my political and interpersonal beliefs.

I liked Nixon's quote:

"I say it doesn't matter if we flew here, or we swam here, it matters that we are here and we are one group and let us stop trying to make a litmus test for who is gay and who is not."

[Vlasta]

Hello to everyone, I am out of the corner since I break the TOS and I must take a full responsibility for my actions.

First of all , since I see how much my comment upset so many people and I was not willing to put my very personal life to explain why I feel the way I do as I done it with my son’s situation and beg for support . The second comment on my son’s thread was rude and I regretted immediately when I hit that submit button, but there were also very kind and compassioned people trying to help me. I was in agony if I would lose my only child and unable to function. I was offered help that I couldn’t even follow on since I just dealt with the lawyers, on my knees and hoping for the best outcome.

I break the TOS, but I was under impression as I see I was called on this thread ugly and my ugliness is was against TOS also, but guess not.

I really didn’t want to clarify my statement however my true friend from here encouraged me to do so , it’s obvious for people to calm down I should. Please, do not take this as I am on the soap box, but a true part of my life.

Back in late 80’s, I was partnered with a butch for two and half years. I was happy since I have my child and a very attractive butch and just happy family, house with white picket fence. She was binding her breast and she could pass back then. Just to give you idea that she was not some girly partner. She always questioned me why I have been somewhere for so long, I never understood that, but just took it as a part of her personality .She was thinking with her mind, not mine since she was the one had a double life.

In two and half years she forgot to tell me that she was bisexual. It was dishonest since if she told me that from beginning I would never get into that type of relationship.
Make a long story short as much I can, I for first time in my life ended up with STD which thanks God was only Chlamydia and was treated with antibiotics in very short time I was clear. However, I have tested myself since every year for HIV until this day. I can’t even think I would jeopardize someone’s life with lack of my responsibility of knowing. I have been negative all this years; otherwise I would not have a relationship with anybody.

It was back in 80’s and I am sure by now, I would know and I would completely refrain from any relationship if I was infected. When I was infected with STD , I felt dirty , crushed by my delusional happiness and I was unable function , I have to take time off from my work since I cried 24/7 by this betrayal and waste of my life .

I was equally guilty in my future relationships after this ordeal, I never give my relationships 100 %. I always guard my heart and she truly screwed my life in my future. It was that traumatic for me since I believe in monogamy .

So, I would like from my community until you walk in my shoes, don’t jump in my throat, you was not there for me when I begged for support for my child while he was detained by immigration , but when I expressed that I am not fond of bisexuals suddenly people that I know in person noticed my opinion .

If you are bisexual it’s none of my business, but please be honest about your sexuality. In my case, I could save two and half years of my life, heartache and being more open to my relationships.

In addition of that, I found out she molested my son while I was not home and working. It was so disgusting and I couldn’t even deal with it. My son knew how horrible was for me and really never talk about it, but he did admit to me that happened. Unfortunately, it was many years later and the statute of limitation ran out and what I supposed to do 10 years later? Go to police? They wouldn’t even pay me attention. I wouldn’t even spit on her if she was on fire. Last what I heard from one of our friends, she has two children and still living with a woman. Her ways didn’t changed , dishonest and still have her cake and eat it too .
So once again, don’t judge me until you walk in my shoes. Thanks .

[Semantics]

Hello to everyone, I am out of the corner since I break the TOS and I must take a full responsibility for my actions.

First of all , since I see how much my comment upset so many people and I was not willing to put my very personal life to explain why I feel the way I do as I done it with my son’s situation and beg for support . The second comment on my son’s thread was rude and I regretted immediately when I hit that submit button, but there were also very kind and compassioned people trying to help me. I was in agony if I would lose my only child and unable to function. I was offered help that I couldn’t even follow on since I just dealt with the lawyers, on my knees and hoping for the best outcome.

I break the TOS, but I was under impression as I see I was called on this thread ugly and my ugliness is was against TOS also, but guess not.

I really didn’t want to clarify my statement however my true friend from here encouraged me to do so , it’s obvious for people to calm down I should. Please, do not take this as I am on the soap box, but a true part of my life.

Back in late 80’s, I was partnered with a butch for two and half years. I was happy since I have my child and a very attractive butch and just happy family, house with white picket fence. She was binding her breast and she could pass back then. Just to give you idea that she was not some girly partner. She always questioned me why I have been somewhere for so long, I never understood that, but just took it as a part of her personality .She was thinking with her mind, not mine since she was the one had a double life.

In two and half years she forgot to tell me that she was bisexual. It was dishonest since if she told me that from beginning I would never get into that type of relationship.
Make a long story short as much I can, I for first time in my life ended up with STD which thanks God was only Chlamydia and was treated with antibiotics in very short time I was clear. However, I have tested myself since every year for HIV until this day. I can’t even think I would jeopardize someone’s life with lack of my responsibility of knowing. I have been negative all this years; otherwise I would not have a relationship with anybody.

It was back in 80’s and I am sure by now, I would know and I would completely refrain from any relationship if I was infected. When I was infected with STD , I felt dirty , crushed by my delusional happiness and I was unable function , I have to take time off from my work since I cried 24/7 by this betrayal and waste of my life .

I was equally guilty in my future relationships after this ordeal, I never give my relationships 100 %. I always guard my heart and she truly screwed my life in my future. It was that traumatic for me since I believe in monogamy .

So, I would like from my community until you walk in my shoes, don’t jump in my throat, you was not there for me when I begged for support for my child while he was detained by immigration , but when I expressed that I am not fond of bisexuals suddenly people that I know in person noticed my opinion .

If you are bisexual it’s none of my business, but please be honest about your sexuality. In my case, I could save two and half years of my life, heartache and being more open to my relationships.

In addition of that, I found out she molested my son while I was not home and working. It was so disgusting and I couldn’t even deal with it. My son knew how horrible was for me and really never talk about it, but he did admit to me that happened. Unfortunately, it was many years later and the statute of limitation ran out and what I supposed to do 10 years later? Go to police? They wouldn’t even pay me attention. I wouldn’t even spit on her if she was on fire. Last what I heard from one of our friends, she has two children and still living with a woman. Her ways didn’t changed , dishonest and still have her cake and eat it too .
So once again, don’t judge me until you walk in my shoes. Thanks .

I'm sorry for everything you've been through.

I also want to say that you weren't infected with a disease because your partner was bisexual, you were exposed because your partner was unfaithful and a cheater. Despite what many believe, exclusively lesbian women contract and transmit STD's among themselves all the time.

I don't judge you. I believe that you're entitled to your opinion, I just disagree with it because I believe it harms the bisexuals in our community.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm sorry someone hurt you like that Vlasta, it's not because she was bisexual it was because she is not a nice person and a POS for doing what she did to you, your son, your heart...

We've all been hurt it still DOES NOT give us the right to make broad generalizations about a group of people..

Pedophiles come in all genders and sexual orientations, same with liars, cheaters and pricks..

[EnderD_503]

I think human sexuality is a lot more complex than biological vs. choice or biological vs. environmental and there has been some interesting stuff written on it by theorists during the 20th century.

I can see how sexuality can be all of the above, meaning a mixture of biological, environmental and choice. I can remember only being attracted to women since I was a kid. I don't ever remember being genuinely attracted to boys as a kid. Developing politics and interests made me more attracted to queer women, and that much, I think, is both environmental and choice (in that I opt not to date straight-identified and/or particularly normative women).

Although if I think of what some have been saying in this thread, I think if I could flip a switch and suddenly be physically attracted to men or even queer men...the thought really brings out an adversarial reaction in me. I really would not take that option. I think if I could choose I would continue to be strictly into (queer) women. That much has to do with politics and personal values/beliefs.

As far as Nixon, I do see why some people are pissed off at her. In many places, lgbtq rights can rest on the biological argument. Additionally, as a celebrity people are, unfortunately, more likely to listen to her than to 10,000 activists. Hence why I generally think Hollywood stars should stfu about social issues in general. Most of them aren't particularly educated (and I don't mean this in an academic way) on social issues and tend to fuck up more than they help.

Edit: That being said, I would add that I find it hard to believe that any one person is 100% straight or gay. I think society has created this binary and it's led to a lot of fucked up shit. That being said, I still think everyone has their preferences. Just because something might have originally (or might eventually be) a possibility does not leave out the fact that people have their preferences. Different people have different preferences based on how they fuck...same with who they fuck.

Also, Straight celebrities aren't coming out saying "I chose to be straight," so I think all this "I chose to be gay" shit by Nixon is playing further into a lot of fucked up social bullshit.

[Vlasta]

Thank you for your reply's and I didn't expected that someone would agree with me . I knew since nobody would risk to be unpopular with they friends and I agree with me .

Yes , I am biased and I will not denied that. There are millions gay people rightfully fighting for the equal rights , they have been together for many years and not getting nowhere . Sad situation , but true .

On the other hand , no wonder that heterosexual community looking us as freaks and they don't recognized that we live an equally loving and normal lives as they do . If there are people that one day they are with John and few days later they are with Jane .Therefore , they are thinking it's a choice for us in which in so many cases it's not .

and to Snow , I hate pedophiles and I am just grateful that my son has been strong enough to overcome this situation and as a loving child kept that from me , because I wouldn't be posting here , I would be in a prison .

It's ok to be bisexual , but be honest and not living a double life .

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yanno Vlasta I'm not going to disagree with someone's opinion because it's gonna keep my homies "happy". I DON'T agree with what you stated because it was a sweeping generalization of members in this community. I wanted to clarify that particular detail....

:)

[Softhearted]

Since when living a double life is linked to being bisexual?!??????

[Vlasta]

I am not going to debate any longer on this thread , I am done with it . I made myself clear how I feel . I lived through a very bad situation. I am not the one that you come home to me with a sperm from whoever you had sex with .

I am done , have a good night .

[JustJo]

Thank you Vlasta for coming back into the thread and telling your story and where your point of view comes from. I know that had to be difficult, and I appreciate you having the courage to do that. :rrose:

I can also understand how your experiences with this partner, especially when it came to what she did to your son, can create bitterness...even though it was the individual that hurt you, and not others who may also identify as bisexual.

[betenoire]

On the other hand , no wonder that heterosexual community looking us as freaks and they don't recognized that we live an equally loving and normal lives as they do . If there are people that one day they are with John and few days later they are with Jane .Therefore , they are thinking it's a choice for us in which in so many cases it's not .

Wow. You know, I always thought that things like "the religious right" and "conservatism" and "general fear mongering hogwash" was the reason that we don't have equal rights in many countries.

I mean, come on. BISEXUALS are the reason you don't have equal rights? Really?

[betenoire]

And you know. While I'm real sorry you had a bad experience with someone who happened to be bisexual...I'm gonna tell you a story.

My dad used to be a trucker in the 80s. I used to travel with him a great deal of the time when I wasn't in school. This one time we were at a rest stop in Michigan when a man with a knife came up to us. He stole my dad's wallet and scared the shit out of us both.

Now, the dude at the rest stop happened to be Black. Given that one bad experience does my father (and me too) have a pass to shit-talk Black people? Would it be acceptable for my father to say "I don't have a problem with Black people so long as they don't steal wallets"? Of course not. Even though my dad had a bad experience once that would STILL be a bigoted thing to say because 1 - any time you say "I don't have a problem with ____" you obviously DO have a problem with ____. and 2 - it gives the impression that stealing wallets is a "Black thing" to do and any Black person who doesn't steal wallets is the exception to the rule.

so when you say:

It's ok to be bisexual , but be honest and not living a double life .

It's clear that you don't think it's okay to be bisexual, and that you think there is a positive correlation between bisexuality and living a dishonest double life.

I am not the exception to the rule. Your ex is not the rule. There just IS no rule.

Just like there is no "rule" to lesbians or heterosexuals.

[SnackTime]

I mean, come on. BISEXUALS are the reason you don't have equal rights? Really?

I do not see anywhere in her posts where she has stated this.

[betenoire]

I do not see anywhere in her posts where she has stated this.

Yes , I am biased and I will not denied that. There are millions gay people rightfully fighting for the equal rights , they have been together for many years and not getting nowhere . Sad situation , but true .

On the other hand , no wonder that heterosexual community looking us as freaks and they don't recognized that we live an equally loving and normal lives as they do . If there are people that one day they are with John and few days later they are with Jane .Therefore , they are thinking it's a choice for us in which in so many cases it's not .

Maybe it was actually a non sequitur, but I was crediting her post for following a cohesive train of thought.

Best case scenario she said that bisexuals are the reason that heterosexuals think of us all as freaks. BEST case scenario.

[Toughy]

I'm wondering if there is something in the TOS about this kind of nastiness directed at bisexuals....bisexual phobia should not be acceptable on this website.

Replace 'bisexual' with ohhhh say 'black' or 'mexican' or __________ and shit would hit the fan.

[Sparx1_1]

Maybe it was actually a non sequitur, but I was crediting her post for following a cohesive train of thought.

Best case scenario she said that bisexuals are the reason that heterosexuals think of us all as freaks. BEST case scenario.

The reality is that for some heterosexuals that is a very correct assessment of how they think and feel. We are all affected by our experiences and unfortunately vlasta has had an incredibly negative experience. Even more unfortunate is that there are people in our community who have the same opinions yet have never had a bad experience.
All vlasta has done is been honest about how her experiences have affected her. Rage filled responses will only guarantee that her opinion and the opinions of people with similar ideas will never change.

[betenoire]

Rage filled responses will only guarantee that her opinion and the opinions of people with similar ideas will never change.

You've got an interesting definition of rage.



I also want to say that you weren't infected with a disease because your partner was bisexual, you were exposed because your partner was unfaithful and a cheater. Despite what many believe, exclusively lesbian women contract and transmit STD's among themselves all the time.

I don't judge you. I believe that you're entitled to your opinion, I just disagree with it because I believe it harms the bisexuals in our community.


We've all been hurt it still DOES NOT give us the right to make broad generalizations about a group of people..

Since when living a double life is linked to being bisexual?!??????

Wow. You know, I always thought that things like "the religious right" and "conservatism" and "general fear mongering hogwash" was the reason that we don't have equal rights in many countries.

I mean, come on. BISEXUALS are the reason you don't have equal rights? Really?


It's clear that you don't think it's okay to be bisexual, and that you think there is a positive correlation between bisexuality and living a dishonest double life.

I am not the exception to the rule. Your ex is not the rule. There just IS no rule.

Just like there is no "rule" to lesbians or heterosexuals.

Best case scenario she said that bisexuals are the reason that heterosexuals think of us all as freaks. BEST case scenario.

I'm wondering if there is something in the TOS about this kind of nastiness directed at bisexuals....bisexual phobia should not be acceptable on this website.

Replace 'bisexual' with ohhhh say 'black' or 'mexican' or __________ and shit would hit the fan.

[Kobi]

The reality is that for some heterosexuals that is a very correct assessment of how they think and feel. We are all affected by our experiences and unfortunately vlasta has had an incredibly negative experience. Even more unfortunate is that there are people in our community who have the same opinions yet have never had a bad experience.
All vlasta has done is been honest about how her experiences have affected her. Rage filled responses will only guarantee that her opinion and the opinions of people with similar ideas will never change.


I tend to agree with the principles here. Sometimes there is a difference between what is said and what is heard. And, focusing on a line or two from the context of what was said can dramatically alter the perception of what was meant.

Within the context of what was said, I heard someone expressing their displeasure at having been deceived by someone they felt wasnt upfront and honest with them, and someone who betrayed their trust. And, this bothered them.

[Martina]

I agree with Toughy. i know people have their own biases, but this is not the place to express them. It's not. It's a public forum.

Bisexual people are welcome here. They do not need to read that others think they are unfaithful or carriers of disease or whatever.

Even the "i would never date a bisexual" thing is questionable if you think about it. i remember when people were taken to task about that re trans issues.

i mean we want who we want, we have the life experiences we have, etc.

But expressing that stuff here is potentially alienating and harmful to others. Do it in PM's. This is not a therapy group. People come here for fun or to relax as well as for other reasons. They do not come here to be reminded that they are hated by others. We are a community. If you have hateful feelings and thoughts, keep them to yourself.

In the past i told some of my stories about dating/befriending some transmen. They were not positive. I got schooled about how sharing those stories in the way i did was harmful to others. i learned. i appreciate the folks who took the time out to explain it to me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

The reality is that for some heterosexuals that is a very correct assessment of how they think and feel. We are all affected by our experiences and unfortunately vlasta has had an incredibly negative experience. Even more unfortunate is that there are people in our community who have the same opinions yet have never had a bad experience.
All vlasta has done is been honest about how her experiences have affected her. Rage filled responses will only guarantee that her opinion and the opinions of people with similar ideas will never change.



I'd like to clarify that not one time that I have posted about this particular subject have *I* personally been "rage filled" it feels insulting to me that when we (general) have a difference with opinion with something that is OBVIOUSLY harmful to members of this community (what Vlasta said is, was, incorrect and harmful)

Having a different opinion and not agreeing with ugly statements regardless of someones own personal experience is not *RAGE* it's standing up and saying "hey, you don't get to insult our bisexual members here just because someone you were with cheated on you, molested you kid, and gave you a disease"


I find it ridiculous and insulting to be accused of being *rage filled* because one stands up for the rights of others to be here and not have to be insulted....

:olive:

I tell ya what does piss me off, when someone takes it upon themselves to *assume* that because I am standing up for others that I am some angry pissed off woman.

[adorable]

I know for sure that when I was 13 my mother walked into my room and accused me of being a dyke because I had wallpapered my room with Madonna posters. I also know that I took it all down in horror. It was said with such distaste and hate that no way did I want to be associated with that “dyke” thing. That was a choice I made.

I also know that I was accused of being bisexual by people here in my real time community. I know that it was said with the same distaste and hate. I know in an effort to fit in with the gay crowd I had to distance myself from my past of being with men. The only thing worse than being a man, it seemed, was to sleep with them. My distancing was a choice, due to being young and wanting to belong.

I’m no longer young, nor do I give a shit if I belong. I make different choices today.

We clearly were (or are) seen as traitors and get no stars. I have two beautiful girls. I loved a man enough at some point to make those babies. I can say today that I will partner with men and it’s just fine if people try to take my birthday away for it. Many of us made choices based on limited knowledge, youth, inexperience or all those things. We all walk around making choices every day of our lives. Most of us too, no matter how we ID, have been accused by society in general of being wild sex crazed maniacs hanging from chandeliers who can’t control ourselves and freaks set out to destroy innocent children.

I have said this before, and (surprise) I’m saying it again, it is NOT OKAY for ANY group to hate another group, but it’s especially disturbing when a minority group hates on another minority group. That is exactly what those in the larger society who hate us WANT US TO DO. It is much easier to divide us into small manageable factions and take away the “other” other’s rights first. Divide and conquer.

It’s so nonsensical, that it would seem like it would go without saying.
Evidently, not.

Let me say to everyone reading this that what has been said here was hateful, bigoted, stereotypical, and untrue. Bisexuality doesn’t make a person promiscuous. Bisexual people are not dirty lepers running around transmitting diseases. Bisexuals are not living a double life. They are not trying to “have their cake and eat it too.” Bisexuality doesn’t cause people to molest children. Being bisexual doesn’t mean that you are not a feminist or are a sellout. Nor does it mean you bring sperm home. Heterosexuals are not stereotyping us based on what bisexuals do or don’t do.

Those who are against the gay community, are against us ALL - across the board. THEY don’t give a shit what we call ourselves or how we identify. We, as a collective minority, need to STOP discriminating against members in our own community. It’s a matter of life and death. Even under the guise of “my experience,” clear bisexual stereotypes must be called out. I’m calling it out.
These exact stereotypes are perpetrated against us ALL every single day in our society. They justify our collective rights being taken away. This includes ALL OF US – you, me, us and them. Stereotypes that justify everything from discrimination to hate crimes.

Everyone should be outraged whenever hate or intolerance is directed at any minority group. It is silence that allows this bullshit and stereotyping to continue.

(To be fair I did manage to stay out of this thread for several pages...in case any ribbons are being handed out.)

[betenoire]

Being bisexual doesn’t mean that you are not a feminist or are a sellout.

I'm going to take that one step further and say that shaming bisexual women is anti-feminist. It's not okay to try and police my body.

[Corkey]

I don't care if someone is Bi, Str8, Queer, Trans, Butch or Femme. What I care about is their integrity, their humor, their humanism. We are All Human beings, degrading anyone for their choice of whom they sleep with is offensive. Broad brushing Humans into boxes and defaming them because of ONE persons actions is offensive. If one cannot separate one person from a group then it is offensive. I do not understand why this is hard to get.
Rage is something that is not in this discussion, it is however something that fuels hate, as well as ignorance.
My .02

[Medusa]

All -


Wanted to come in here for a minute and address the direction that the conversation has taken and hopefully move past the ugly stuff so we can get back to talking about Cynthia Nixon and her clumsy-ass comments.

First off, not only do we have a clause in the TOS about hate speech but I've also talked about this being a welcoming community on every level. Just to be clear, this community is sexuality-positive meaning that whatever your sexuality is, it's perfect and absolutely correct just the way it is.

This means we are bi-positive, poly-positive, fetish positive, kink positive, asexual positive, vanilla positive, Butch on Butch positive, Trans on Trans positive, Femme on Femme positive, Mommy/boy positive, Daddy/girl positive, Top positive, bottom positive, simple sex positive, penetration positive, frottage positive, dolphin vibrator positive, dildoes-that-look-like-real-dicks positive, oral positive, ass positive, vagina positive, Butchcock positive, Transcock positive, Transwoman vagina or cock positive, hairy pussy positive, shaved pussy positive, monogamy positive, and any other kind of sexuality or sexual appetite positive that you can think of. It's ALL good.

Here's the deal, however you get off or partner or fuck is CORRECT!

However the person next to you gets off or partners or fucks is CORRECT, even if it's different from how you do it!

I don't think anyone here gets to have an opinion on how or who I fuck unless they are paying my bills, also fucking me, or living in my house. That goes for everyone here.

As a side note to Vlasta: I know you are a good person Vlasta and it looks like you have been through a lot in your life that is incredibly painful. I get that your experiences have jarred you and given you a historical context that is very negative. I do hope you will consider that what you have been through was done to you by individual people, not by how they fuck and that even if they had been straight or gay that it probably wouldn't have changed things if they were dishonest or a person who didn't think about how what they did would hurt you. That comes in every form and in every sexuality.
On this website, we have a lot of people of all different sexualities. I want you to be a part of what makes this website welcoming, not what might make someone think they weren't welcome here.

I do hope we can get the conversation back on track.

Much love,
Dusa

[WickedFemme]

I have been so busy with work and life that I missed all this. For me, being gay isn't and wasn't a choice. I feel offended by Cynthia's statement because she is in the spotlight of the media and the Right Wing Anti-Gay movement is solely based in the belief that being gay is a Choice. That is the problem with her statement... it's a problem because mainstream people are ignorant for the most part and will believe that it is a choice for all Gay people. This belief will further the Anti-Gay movement.

As far as Vlasta is concerned. She had her experiences and it looks like she harbors much resentment. I don't think her intent was to harm anyone here on this site. I know Vlasta, I lived with her for awhile and she is a good friend and the best friend I ever had. What most of you don't know is that Vlasta is from another country and I think Culturally, she is often very misunderstood due to the fact that English is her second language as well as her Cultural background and upbringing. A lot of people can not even begin to understand, but please if you have an issue with a statement she or anyone else makes - take it offline before making wild accusations and assumptions. AT the very least try to gain some cultural competence. I'm not saying that I agree with her statements. I am saying that i know her and I know some of her history, which I am not at liberty to discuss... just ask before jumping to conclusions based upon her attempt to convey her thoughts in a language that is foreign to her as well as the Culture of this Country.

sorry Vlasta - don't be angry with me... I just felt like I had to say something as your friend and someone here who truly knows you.

[Reader]

Fascinating, illuminating posts here...