What every Femme should know...

[JistMe]

Someone out there was meant to be the love of your life... your best friend; your soul mate.
He'll brush the hair out of your eyes, and send you flowers when you least expect it.
He'll stare at you during the movies, even though he paid $30 to see it.
He'll call you to tell you goodnight, or just because he is missing you.
He will call you right back when you hang up on him.
He'll lay with you under the stars listening to your heartbeat... or stay awake all night just to watch you sleep.
He'll kiss your forehead for no reason, and hold your hand in front of your Dad. He'll say you are just as beautiful without makeup on, and show you off to the world when you're in sweats.
He will constantly remind you how lucky he is to have you.
He'll look in your eyes and tell you that you are the most beautiful woman in the world, and for the first time in your life... you'll believe it.
You will know when you find him ---
He will be the one who turns to his friends, and says...
"Thats her..."

[Cuddles]

He'll sing to you even when he can't sing... just to make you laugh.

[spike]

Someone out there was meant to be the love of your life... your best friend; your soul mate.
He'll brush the hair out of your eyes, and send you flowers when you least expect it.
He'll stare at you during the movies, even though he paid $30 to see it.
He'll call you to tell you goodnight, or just because he is missing you.
He will call you right back when you hang up on him.
He'll lay with you under the stars listening to your heartbeat... or stay awake all night just to watch you sleep.
He'll kiss your forehead for no reason, and hold your hand in front of your Dad. He'll say you are just as beautiful without makeup on, and show you off to the world when you're in sweats.
He will constantly remind you how lucky he is to have you.
He'll look in your eyes and tell you that you are the most beautiful woman in the world, and for the first time in your life... you'll believe it.
You will know when you find him ---
He will be the one who turns to his friends, and says...
"Thats her..."

That is so awesome...I could have never said that better myself. Are you reading my thoughts? Are you inside my head?

[Queerasfck]

Hey fellas, keep in mind not every femme NEEDS or WANTS this and that doesn't make her less than femme.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So what happens to us Femme's who aren't validated by that him?

Are we less beautiful and valuable?

[spike]

Hey fellas, keep in mind not every femme NEEDS or WANTS this and that doesn't make her less than femme.




I absolutely agree. This is just what I desire to do for my woman. Whatever I can to make her feel special.

[spike]

So what happens to us Femme's who aren't validated by that him?

Are we less beautiful and valuable?

By no means are any femmes less beautiful or valuable. I feel that all women should be respected, valued and loved. All women are beautiful to me. (f)

[The_Lady_Snow]

As a Femme I think what every Femme should know is:

You're beautiful, valued and sacred be they coupled or single...

We should know that when we step out into the streets we are forces to be reckoned with, we're capable, independent, proud.

We're sex, candy, strength, love, sisters, lovers, leather, pink boas,friends we're phenomenal women.

[*Anya*]

Let's also keep in mind that not all coupled femmes have a "him" or "hym".

Many of us have a "her" or a gender-free, just plain "butch"!

[apretty]

You don't have to be a simpering idiot to meet and keep a good butch, and s/he's half-way decent s/he'll have some appropriate boundaries and won't be calling your ass back when you hang up on her--You'll then know you've found the one because s/he's got a backbone that keeps him/her strong during trips to the ER and Thanksgiving with your fucked-up family (where she might hold your hand, but most likely is too busy carving the turkey) and you'll be able to actually lean on her once in a while but guess what--She's going to require you to have some personal accountability and won't be staring at you slack-jawed during any of it.

[JAGG]

Someone out there was meant to be the love of your life... your best friend; your soul mate.
He'll brush the hair out of your eyes, and send you flowers when you least expect it.
He'll stare at you during the movies, even though he paid $30 to see it.
He'll call you to tell you goodnight, or just because he is missing you.
He will call you right back when you hang up on him.
He'll lay with you under the stars listening to your heartbeat... or stay awake all night just to watch you sleep.
He'll kiss your forehead for no reason, and hold your hand in front of your Dad. He'll say you are just as beautiful without makeup on, and show you off to the world when you're in sweats.
He will constantly remind you how lucky he is to have you.
He'll look in your eyes and tell you that you are the most beautiful woman in the world, and for the first time in your life... you'll believe it.
You will know when you find him ---
He will be the one who turns to his friends, and says...
"Thats her..."
I have read this poem before on a quote site. It didn't really do much for me. Because if she looks like the joker in sweats I'm going to tell her about it. I'd want her to tell me if I looked bad. Staying up all night watching someone sleep is very creepy. Maybe I'm not very romantic. But just because someone does all these things that doesn't make them the love of my life. I had a gf once who did those things and was cheating on me and stabbing me in the back every chance she got so.....

[Ebon]

It might be a good idea to let her cool off before calling or back or you might get hung up on again.

[Dude]

hang up on me _ I wont be calling you back.
starring _ mom taught me that's creepy and I have to agree.
If I wanted smooshy time we would not be at the movies.
I wont hold your hand in front of Dad , probably ever.(depending on Dad)
I will tell you , that you are beautiful but not the most beautiful in the world.
As my best friend?, you will appreciate this because the truth is important to you.

:twitch:

[BullDog]

Well lucky me, I never have to pay $30 for us to go to the movies because my femme is constantly getting free movie vouchers from her employer because she is a kick ass nurse.

My femme took me out for lunch just yesterday.

Yes I do take her out as well and I am a She.

p.s. she has never hung up on me

[betenoire]

What every Femme should know:

Measure twice cut once. This goes for countertops, neat fabric for throw pillows, and the jeans you need to hem.

How to parallel park. Because driving in circles for 30 minutes looking for a spot you can just pull in to is boring and bad for the environment.

How to brew tea the correct way. Just because it irritates me when you do it wrong.

How to hang up blinds, wall art, and the telephone.

When to call it quits and when to keep on trucking.

How to sneak microwave popcorn and bottled water into a movie matinee because that shit should NEVER cost $30.

And finally that you are worth so much more than some dime-store creepy staring insomniac stalker who won't call you on your shit.

[Julie]

What every Femme should know...

You do not need a butch to complete you.
You do not need an identifying butch (male or female) to validate that you are a Femme.
You can shave your head and still be Femme.
Femme is not about what you wear, but who you are inside.
You are beautiful and not because you are being told by someone... But because you believe it.

The day I have to depend on a Butch to make me feel good about myself... Is the day I have lost who I am.
I am beautiful, because I am Julie - Not because I am told by a butch.

You do not need someone to pay for your dates.
You are an independent woman.
You can change your own oil and if you cannot, you can bring it to the service station.

Dammit... I keep going back to the brushing the hair out of my eyes. Where is it?
If my butch has to keep reminding me how lucky he/hy/she is to have me... I will eventually think they are trying to convince themselves.

This whole thing (while it is sweet in theory) scares me. Not for me, but for the countless Femme's that believe their self worth comes from a being partnered with a Butch.

Julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

Is we have somewhere to go here on BFP...


>LINKY< (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11)

[grenade]

Nothing is absolute or applies to everyone. The sentiment behind this was sweet. Thanks for sharing.

[Julie]

Let us not forget.

Being Femme means you honor and respect your Femme Sisters.

Being a Femme's Femme is more important than any Butch on this planet.

[The_Lady_Snow]

sit in your shiatsu massage chair reading food blogs and drinking cold brew

have a kitchen dance party

make jam at midnight, when it’s finally cooled down outside

spend the day napping and jerking off

read a good book straight through

try a new recipe

flirt with the fed ex man/woman like you’re in a harlequin

take a week off from facebook

wash your sheets and line dry them

listen to whatever you want, all day long

watch gilmore girls for hours, because you can

make your favorite dish. share it with yourself.

try on the clothes that make you feel pretty. prance accordingly.

wear your swim cover up as a nightgown

indulge your organizing neuroses

take a long shower

make your hair do funny things

write

remember that many people enjoy your company. being with yourself is no punishment.

[JustJo]

What every femme should know...

...who you are is just fine.

...it's perfectly okay to choose to be alone....in fact, sometimes that's the best choice....for awhile or forever.

...you get to make your own choices....and so do your friends, your family and your partner.

...it's perfectly okay to choose to be coupled....and it's your choice who you do that with.

...you do not need the approval of others to be who you are.

...and finally, you really don't have to pay a plumber $200 to replace the flapper in the toilet....it truly isn't that hard to do.

...you are more resourceful than you may think you are. :rrose:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Nothing is absolute or applies to everyone. The sentiment behind this was sweet. Thanks for sharing.



The sentiment is sweet nonetheless as a Femme I *have* to speak up, lately there have been discussions in this forum about caution, care, duplicity, red flags. It's very easy for people to get swept up with romantic ideals, fantasies and realities get pushed aside..

I would rather educate my fellow community of Femme's of the things they ALREADY are, hearing them from a butch/guy/boi/boy shouldn't make them more valuable than what we see, feel, think and are...


Poetry like this is not the reality that happens to women, we're much more than fluff us Femme's so therefore I feel as a Femme that IS what we should know..

We are what we are because we make it so, NO ONE has control of that my loins don't control my destinies, fantasies, journey's Gender....

:)

[Julie]

The sentiment is sweet nonetheless as a Femme I *have* to speak up, lately there have been discussions in this forum about caution, care, duplicity, red flags. It's very easy for people to get swept up with romantic ideals, fantasies and realities get pushed aside..

I would rather educate my fellow community of Femme's of the things the ALREADY are, hearing them from a butch/guy/boi/boy shouldn't make them more valuable than what we see, feel, think and are...


Poetry like this is not the reality that happens to women, we're much more than fluff us Femme's so therefore I feel as a Femme that IS what we should know..

We are what we are because we make it so, NO ONE has control of that my loins don't control my destinies, fantasies, journey's Gender....

:)

You are so right Snow...
And in part, this is what being FEMME is about.
We call out the bullshit and we take care of our Femme Sisters.
We make sure they are not swindled or taken advantage of.

And sometimes... We have to blow up the fairy tale, just to keep them safe.

Julie who is so proud and honored to call you Sister.

[grenade]

The sentiment is sweet nonetheless as a Femme I *have* to speak up, lately there have been discussions in this forum about caution, care, duplicity, red flags. It's very easy for people to get swept up with romantic ideals, fantasies and realities get pushed aside..

I would rather educate my fellow community of Femme's of the things they ALREADY are, hearing them from a butch/guy/boi/boy shouldn't make them more valuable than what we see, feel, think and are...


Poetry like this is not the reality that happens to women, we're much more than fluff us Femme's so therefore I feel as a Femme that IS what we should know..

We are what we are because we make it so, NO ONE has control of that my loins don't control my destinies, fantasies, journey's Gender....

:) and you can not speak for all femmes any more than I can, or the original poster. A lot of femmes might read this and swoon. Are they wrong in feeling this type of adoration meets certain desires and needs they might have? It might be more accurate for a person to read this and say not me. I am not THAT femme.

[Dude]

speaking of needs

wanting someone is hot
needing someone is not

huge difference

[The_Lady_Snow]

and you can not speak for all femmes any more than I can, or the original poster. A lot of femmes might read this and swoon. Are they wrong in feeling this type of adoration meets certain desires and needs they might have? It might be more accurate for a person to read this and say not me. I am not THAT femme.


Grenade, I did NOT say that anyone was wrong, I am putting it out there that Femme's have other options, that they DON'T need to validate who they are via a butch/guy/boy/boi.

The title of this thread is

"What EVERY Femme should know"


So therefore since I am Femme I decided to speak not for EVERY Femme but for ALL Femmes especially those of us who do not fall into the heteronormative/mysoginist traps of relationships....

So what EVERY Femme should know is:

She can be the one in charge and not have ANYONE remind her how much the fucking movies cost... I found that to be pretty fucking gross not romantic hence why I spoke up because as a Femme it's insulting...

[Julie]

and you can not speak for all femmes any more than I can, or the original poster. A lot of femmes might read this and swoon. Are they wrong in feeling this type of adoration meets certain desires and needs they might have? It might be more accurate for a person to read this and say not me. I am not THAT femme.

I am responding... Though the question was posed to Snow.

No, they are not wrong for feeling this way. It does make me a bit sad for those Femme's out there, that get their self worth from being loved and adored by a butch and who feel worshiped by a $30 movie.

The title of this thread is "What every Femme should know..."

Personally... I am just sharing my personal wisdom, as are some of the other posters. My personal stuff. Just in case there are some femme's out there, who never experienced the other side. Self worth.

Julie

[Estella]

With all due respect to the original poster, there's something slightly repellent about a butch telling femmes what we should know. My mother told me what I should know ... the rest I figured out the hard way, or learned from other brilliant, brave, beautiful Femmes.

[Tawse]

I just want to say I'd find it very creepy if I went to the movie with someone and they stared at me the whole time.

Would prolly be the last date...



:)

[JustJo]

Someone out there was meant to be the love of your life... your best friend; your soul mate.
He'll brush the hair out of your eyes, and send you flowers when you least expect it.
He'll stare at you during the movies, even though he paid $30 to see it.
He'll call you to tell you goodnight, or just because he is missing you.
He will call you right back when you hang up on him.
He'll lay with you under the stars listening to your heartbeat... or stay awake all night just to watch you sleep.
He'll kiss your forehead for no reason, and hold your hand in front of your Dad. He'll say you are just as beautiful without makeup on, and show you off to the world when you're in sweats.
He will constantly remind you how lucky he is to have you.
He'll look in your eyes and tell you that you are the most beautiful woman in the world, and for the first time in your life... you'll believe it.
You will know when you find him ---
He will be the one who turns to his friends, and says...
"Thats her..."

So....I wanted to pop back in...and say that I, too, appreciate this sentiment posted by JistMe. I think many of us want to feel that rush of romance....of adoration....of being swept off our feet.

Nothing wrong with that in my book. :rrose:

I think, for me, where it stops is when this (above) is supposed to be all I am...the recipient of adoration.

Don't get me wrong....I like adoration. :) I want to feel that. I want adoration and love and dedication and faithfulness and passion and romance and all those wonderful sweet things that are the nectar of life.

It's just that there's so much more that I want.

I want to be respected for my strength, and my intelligence and my resourcefulness. I want to be protected when I feel vulnerable, and be the protective mama-bear when that's needed.

I want to be partners....in the real sense of the word. I want us to talk together, decide together, work together towards our goals.

I am not baggage. I do not want to be carried.

I am not an idol. I do not want to be worshipped.

I am not perfect....and neither are you. I want us to be perfectly imperfect together....for us each to step forward when it's a strength for us, and to allow the other to step forward when we are weak.

And, yes, if you stay up all night watching me sleep or stare at me through an entire movie....I'm gonna be creeped out. :rrose:

[*Anya*]

Femmes...

...come in all shapes, sizes and shades

...fall in love or lust or both with her, girls, bois, boys, him or hym

...fall in love, lust or both, with stones or switches

...we, ourselves, are stones or switches

...can feel strong at times as well as weak

...can take care of ourselves and at the same time, sometimes, may feel the need to be taken care of

...can be fiercely independent but sometimes feel very dependent

...can have long, flowing locks or short, spiky ones

...are moms and are child-free

...love high-heels and hate high-heels

...are free to define who and what we are

...because we are Femme

[Chancie]

With all due respect to the original poster, there's something slightly repellent about a butch telling femmes what we should know. My mother told me what I should know ... the rest I figured out the hard way, or learned from other brilliant, brave, beautiful Femmes.

I feel the same way.

I appreciate Pete's love and support, but

My mother was a feminist and

She encouraged me to go to grad school.

Pete could have used a mother like mine.

[Estella]

Every Femme should know what makes her happy. Unfortunately, this can take years of trial and error to figure out, but once you do it can be genuinely shocking to realize how much energy you wasted on things you thought were supposed to make you happy, but in fact were a colossal waste of time.

[starryeyes]

I thought it was very sweet, but it needs she pronouns to suit me :)



Someone out there was meant to be the love of your life... your best friend; your soul mate.
He'll brush the hair out of your eyes, and send you flowers when you least expect it.
He'll stare at you during the movies, even though he paid $30 to see it.
He'll call you to tell you goodnight, or just because he is missing you.
He will call you right back when you hang up on him.
He'll lay with you under the stars listening to your heartbeat... or stay awake all night just to watch you sleep.
He'll kiss your forehead for no reason, and hold your hand in front of your Dad. He'll say you are just as beautiful without makeup on, and show you off to the world when you're in sweats.
He will constantly remind you how lucky he is to have you.
He'll look in your eyes and tell you that you are the most beautiful woman in the world, and for the first time in your life... you'll believe it.
You will know when you find him ---
He will be the one who turns to his friends, and says...
"Thats her..."

[starryeyes]

I just want to say I'd find it very creepy if I went to the movie with someone and they stared at me the whole time.

Would prolly be the last date...



:)

Lol!!!! :-)

[JAGG]

What every femme should know- truck drivers in semi's can see everything you are doing in your car, we can read the gum wrapper on the floorboard behind your seat. We can see everything. Everything! And yes when you pass by they ARE looking and you can bet you're being talked about on the CB. Thought you should know that.

[Estella]

What every femme should - truck drivers in semi's can see everything you are doing in your car, we can read the gum wrapper on the floorboard behind your seat. We can see everything. Everything! And yes when you pass by they ARE looking and you can bet you're being talked about on the CB. Thought you should know that.

Fair enough ... good to know.

[JAGG]

I just want to say I'd find it very creepy if I went to the movie with someone and they stared at me the whole time.

Would prolly be the last date...



:)

What if they were blind in one eye, and had to turn their head a certain way to see the movie and it just appeared like they were starring at you the whole time ?lol

[Tawse]

What if they were blind in one eye, and had to turn their head a certain way to see the movie and it just appeared like they were starring at you the whole time ?lol

unless they were a fish I don't see why they'd have to do that... O.o

and i try not to date outside my species lol

[1QuirkyKiwi]

You don't have to be a simpering idiot to meet and keep a good butch, and s/he's half-way decent s/he'll have some appropriate boundaries and won't be calling your ass back when you hang up on her--You'll then know you've found the one because s/he's got a backbone that keeps him/her strong during trips to the ER and Thanksgiving with your fucked-up family (where she might hold your hand, but most likely is too busy carving the turkey) and you'll be able to actually lean on her once in a while but guess what--She's going to require you to have some personal accountability and won't be staring at you slack-jawed during any of it.

I have read this poem before on a quote site. It didn't really do much for me. Because if she looks like the joker in sweats I'm going to tell her about it. I'd want her to tell me if I looked bad. Staying up all night watching someone sleep is very creepy. Maybe I'm not very romantic. But just because someone does all these things that doesn't make them the love of my life. I had a gf once who did those things and was cheating on me and stabbing me in the back every chance she got so.....


It was me that posted it on the quote thread….my reason for doing so, was to suggest a partner (however they identify) as gently loving and adoring their Femme in a positive way.

Sometimes it’s nice when your partner watches you sleep or you them; there’s a tenderness about it; a deeply loving trust.

No-one looks their best all the time, yet, your partner will think you’re beautiful to them anyway because they see all the facets that make their Femme who they are and some of the reasons they fell in love with them.

I appreciate something like this doesn’t stoke the fire for everyone, yet, for some, it’s nice to know they are adored in a gently loving way.

It still shouldn’t take away from any Femme what they need or should have; that’s for each of us to decide.

[1QuirkyKiwi]

What every femme should know- truck drivers in semi's can see everything you are doing in your car, we can read the gum wrapper on the floorboard behind your seat. We can see everything. Everything! And yes when you pass by they ARE looking and you can bet you're being talked about on the CB. Thought you should know that.

Now that's creepy!

[Novelafemme]

It was me that posted it on the quote thread….my reason for doing so, was to suggest a partner (however they identify) as gently loving and adoring their Femme in a positive way.

Sometimes it’s nice when your partner watches you sleep or you them; there’s a tenderness about it; a deeply loving trust.

No-one looks their best all the time, yet, your partner will think you’re beautiful to them anyway because they see all the facets that make their Femme who they are and some of the reasons they fell in love with them.

I appreciate something like this doesn’t stoke the fire for everyone, yet, for some, it’s nice to know they are adored in a gently loving way.

It still shouldn’t take away from any Femme what they need or should have; that’s for each of us to decide.


I thought it was sweet AND sort of creepy...but mostly sweet. I'm all about mushy sentiments like that, though. The male pronouns threw me off for sure.

I guess I have a big problem being put on a pedestal by anyone, my partner included. It's too damned much pressure! And I certainly don't want to feel like I am the center of anyone's universe...a part of it, yes, but let's keep everything in perspective. And please don't ever make the mistake of thinking you are the boss of me. Cause HOLY SHIT will there be trouble! ;) I also don't think there's anything wrong with "needing" someone. That needing doesn't necessarily have to mandate something unhealthy. It can be as simple as needing someone's loving presence in your life...their laughter, their support, whatever it is they bring into your world that makes each day a bit brighter and more enjoyable. That can leave some feeling vulnerable, yes...but not wrong.

Thanks for sharing, OP.

[Corkey]

My Femme would kick my ass for most of the op post. Jus saying.

[dixie]

What every femme should know- truck drivers in semi's can see everything you are doing in your car, we can read the gum wrapper on the floorboard behind your seat. We can see everything. Everything! And yes when you pass by they ARE looking and you can bet you're being talked about on the CB. Thought you should know that.

As someone whose family owns a trucking company, I can attest to the truth in this statement. I've heard more "beaver spotting" CB transmissions than I would care to remember. smh

[1QuirkyKiwi]

I thought it was sweet AND sort of creepy...but mostly sweet. I'm all about mushy sentiments like that, though. The male pronouns threw me off for sure.

I guess I have a big problem being put on a pedestal by anyone, my partner included. It's too damned much pressure! And I certainly don't want to feel like I am the center of anyone's universe...a part of it, yes, but let's keep everything in perspective. And please don't ever make the mistake of thinking you are the boss of me. Cause HOLY SHIT will there be trouble! ;) I also don't think there's anything wrong with "needing" someone. That needing doesn't necessarily have to mandate something unhealthy. It can be as simple as needing someone's loving presence in your life...their laughter, their support, whatever it is they bring into your world that makes each day a bit brighter and more enjoyable. That can leave some feeling vulnerable, yes...but not wrong.

Thanks for sharing, OP.

The male pronouns make me feel very uncomfortable, too! When I posted the prose in the Quote thread I changed the male pronouns to female ones, lol!

I’m comfortable with being gently adored in a healthy way, but the idea of being put on a pedestal freaks me out! I don’t put my partner on one, either. For me, I adore my partner for hys/her essences and qualities as the person they are and accept that they are their own person, as I am very much my own.

It’s good to have the vulnerability in a healthy relationship as it creates a bond when communication is open and honest.

[dixie]

I also agree that sentiment behind the op's post seems sweet in that "knight in shining armor hollywood fairy tale" kinda way, so I do get it.

For me, some days I'm the kind of femme who is totally not into it. Then some days, *I* want that hollywood fairy tale feeling.

Is it for me every day? No.

Is it for EVERY femme? No.

Some of us don't need it or don't want it.

Some days though, some of us do want it.

I wouldn't chalk it up to EVERY femme though. Just like I wouldn't chalk up similar things to those who are not femme. We ALL have different wants and needs, and it's important to remember that rather than the one-size-fits-all feel that I get from the thread title.

[grenade]

Let us not forget.

Being Femme means you honor and respect your Femme Sisters.

Being a Femme's Femme is more important than any Butch on this planet.really?? I honor those who deserve honor. I respect those who respect me. Femme, butch, straight, purple.... I don't see the difference. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Medusa]

I might go start a thread in the Femme section but I do want to comment on Snowy's and June's posts about the unspoken sisterhood between Femmes.

In my world, and in the circle of friends I have, I expect my Femme sisters to know that they have value regardless of who they are screwing and if they don't yet feel that power, they have to be doing the work to get there.

I think when we talk about "The Femme Sisterhood", we are talking about the expectation that we have (or at least that I have with my close friends and that they also have of me) an open, honest, authentic relationship not only to each other but to ourselves. Because if you aren't in touch with your damage, you have the potential to radiate that out onto other people.

My girls are smart people who often screw up but who know when they need to be working on something or at the very least are able to hear it when one of us says, "That thing you're doing concerns me because it looks like you are acting out or out of control."

We're able to hear those words from one another and take with us a sense of LOVE rather than those words sounding to us like "I want you to act different because I'm trying to control you or am jealous of you".
Because being surrounded by Femmes who get you and love you makes you feel really safe and secure and you start to accept the love that they want to give you rather than being suspicious of it. (as we are often taught to do with one another)

[Julie]

really?? I honor those who deserve honor. I respect those who respect me. Femme, butch, straight, purple.... I don't see the difference. Maybe I'm missing something.

I do hope one day you will get what I am trying to say... Without a defensive tone.

This is about being part of something much bigger than any of us. It is about honoring our Femme Sisters. It is about not allowing a butch to separate us, or any other person for that matter. It is about caring for one another and having each others backs. No matter if it gets icky.

Simply... Sisterhood.

It's okay if you don't get it. So, yes - Really!!!

Julie

[Novelafemme]

"We're able to hear those words from one another and take with us a sense of LOVE rather than those words sounding to us like "I want you to act different because I'm trying to control you or am jealous of you".
Because being surrounded by Femmes who get you and love you makes you feel really safe and secure and you start to accept the love that they want to give you rather than being suspicious of it. (as we are often taught to do with one another)"

I really love this a lot! :bunchflowers:

[stargazingboi]

Someone out there was meant to be the love of your life... your best friend; your soul mate.
He'll brush the hair out of your eyes, and send you flowers when you least expect it.
He'll stare at you during the movies, even though he paid $30 to see it.
He'll call you to tell you goodnight, or just because he is missing you.
He will call you right back when you hang up on him.
He'll lay with you under the stars listening to your heartbeat... or stay awake all night just to watch you sleep.
He'll kiss your forehead for no reason, and hold your hand in front of your Dad. He'll say you are just as beautiful without makeup on, and show you off to the world when you're in sweats.
He will constantly remind you how lucky he is to have you.
He'll look in your eyes and tell you that you are the most beautiful woman in the world, and for the first time in your life... you'll believe it.
You will know when you find him ---
He will be the one who turns to his friends, and says...
"Thats her..."

I must admit, I read this thread a few time and found myself perplexed. The thread was originally brought to my attention and I thought...hmm let me check this out.

At first when I saw the title I wondered what do all femmes need to know? I’m not a femme...so, really I wouldn’t have a clue, but I’m always interested in learning. I’ll be honest, I thought at first it was a femme thread written and started by a femme, then, I saw it was indeed started by male ID individual.

When I glanced at the actual post I thought to myself…hmm. I don’t know the original poster, and I have no idea what they were truly thinking when they posted it. So, I can only speak from what I took from it and how I felt when I read it.

To me it felt as though the poster saw something, and related to what it was saying and decided to share…similar to the thread that is about how do you know someone is into you? (I forget the actual title of the thread). It’s as if the original poster was saying to the femme community this is how I express love…this how you know I love you.

We all express love differently and for some it’s hard to put into words because they stumble or they struggle to be romantic. So, they express their love differently…like calling...giving compliments, seeing the depth of her beauty, beyond make-up and all that other stuff.

For several posts it seemed that people interpreted as I did…then it turned into something else. What perplexed me was the twisting and turning of what followed. I’m not sure the original poster was trying to say this is how I validate you…or trying to stand up on some soap box beating their chest saying I am male hear me roar, but merely saying...hey, for those I have loved before who may not have known and for the one love I am hoping to find…please know this is how you’ll know that I love you.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Stargazingboi it's unfair to say ANYONE twisted or turned anything, a few Femme's came in to give opinions and VOICE what they feel Femme's should know. I mean if anyone should know what Femme's know is Femmes... I find it empowering that so many (Femmes) chose to use their voice:)

I hope we continue to voice our likes, needs, wants and desires for many many moons.:vigil:

[Mr Nice Guy]

I like asking Femmes questions. Now if I could just get them to answer. Lol
Seriously tho, All you Femmes rock!!!!

[stargazingboi]

Stargazingboi it's unfair to say ANYONE twisted or turned anything, a few Femme's came in to give opinions and VOICE what they feel Femme's should know. I mean if anyone should know what Femme's know is Femmes... I find it empowering that so many (Femmes) chose to use their voice:)

I hope we continue to voice our likes, needs, wants and desires for many many moons.:vigil:

Lady_Snow....but the thread did twist and turn. It went in one direction and then another, much like a winding road. Now mind you I didn't say anything about the femmes who decided to voice their thoughts and their empowerment..did I? Empowerment in general is always encouraged for all that exist :)

I merely stated I got perplexed by the course of the thread....

[girl_dee]

What THIS femme wants (not should) to know about me, and what i want others to know about me;

i am special

i am unique, we are ALL unique!

i don't need anyone to validate who i am

i am strong and submissive

i am loved, cherished and owned

i am not anyone's *better half*, i am whole as i am

i can take care of myself, but i may choose differently :)


i am FEMME!!!

i am going to find that femme thread that i love and bump that sucker! RAWR!

[Corkey]

What I want my honey to know is :
Thank you baby for the sushi, it was wonderful of you to think of me while at work.
I was almost apoplectic for where the colander was, found it!
The light is on and the cat is hogging the heater, again!
In other words, all I want for you is be the woman you are and the Femme you want to be.

[Tawse]

also - I don't call Gillian back if she hung up on me. Chances are if she hung up - it's cause I was being a royal dick.. and if I was being a royal dick - the conversation had gotten to a completely nonproductive point.

And besides, I tried doing that - and it results in a longer time out.


And I *hate* being ignored - so longer time outs are to be avoided.

[JistMe]

Wow. I found it somewhere, and posted. I didn't pick the language/pronouns. It was late, I just posted it. I actually intended it to end up in an entirely different thread, but lookie here... its a thread of it's own. lol If I offended someone.... I apologize?

[JistMe]

P. S. .... This is why I dont post. It was not meant to imply that 'femmes NEED a butch' or anything of the sort. But, it's cool. Gives everyone something to analyze and post on. Tear it up!

[girl_dee]

P. S. .... This is why I dont post. It was not meant to imply that 'femmes NEED a butch' or anything of the sort. But, it's cool. Gives everyone something to analyze and post on. Tear it up!

oh no! it gives us stuff to celebrate!

[Julie]

Wow. I found it somewhere, and posted. I didn't pick the language/pronouns. It was late, I just posted it. I actually intended it to end up in an entirely different thread, but lookie here... its a thread of it's own. lol If I offended someone.... I apologize?

Jist...

Honestly - I think it's good you posted it. It gave opportunity for discussion and cleared the way for an important conversation.

Please continue posting -- I know sometimes it can be scary, especially when there are so many people jumping in and posting their thoughts, which are not necessarily favorable... But that does not mean it is bad. I know I certainly spoke my peace, and I am glad I had the opportunity to.

What every Femme should know... Certainly will not come from prose written by a man or a butch. It will come from her and will come from the dialogue she shares with other Femmes.

It's all good - Hopefully you learned something too.

Julie

[JistMe]

Jist...

Honestly - I think it's good you posted it. It gave opportunity for discussion and cleared the way for an important conversation.

Please continue posting -- I know sometimes it can be scary, especially when there are so many people jumping in and posting their thoughts, which are not necessarily favorable... But that does not mean it is bad. I know I certainly spoke my peace, and I am glad I had the opportunity to.

What every Femme should know... Certainly will not come from prose written by a man or a butch. It will come from her and will come from the dialogue she shares with other Femmes.

It's all good - Hopefully you learned something too.

Julie
Oh yes... I did. I learned how new people must feel coming in here, and trying to post. Lucky for me, I am not a newbie.... have been a poster many years.
And no... I am not scared to post again. There's not much in this life that does scare me, and a little criticism is not on the list.
I'm just a little disheartened that something so simple, and well intended .... can be taken so literally that people even have a 'discussion' about it.
Not to mention... it was posted in a forum that was supposed to be for writings and ramblings, and not a philosophical discussion board.
All of that aside, it has nothing to do with being afraid or intimidated... or even caring... about someone else's opinion. It has to do with what a waste of my time and energy it is for me to even go read the replies. Why post?
One last note --- It never ceases to amaze me how much people can (or THINK they can) glean from one silly post. I went from being in a sweet and swoony mood over a great girl, to now a chauvinistic pig... ? .....
Not a single one of you (aside from grenade) even know me. So.... quite the judgement leap on your part.
I am actually pretty sweet. I am polite, generous to a fault, and am one of the only ones to stand up for the ladies in chat, or in real life. I am all about a woman standing on her own two feet, and speaking her mind. She doesn't need me, or anyone else to be whole. That's what I love the most about them.
But then.... none of you know that. Do you?

[pynkkameleon]

Someone out there was meant to be the love of your life... your best friend; your soul mate.
He'll brush the hair out of your eyes, and send you flowers when you least expect it.
He'll stare at you during the movies, even though he paid $30 to see it.
He'll call you to tell you goodnight, or just because he is missing you.
He will call you right back when you hang up on him.
He'll lay with you under the stars listening to your heartbeat... or stay awake all night just to watch you sleep.
He'll kiss your forehead for no reason, and hold your hand in front of your Dad. He'll say you are just as beautiful without makeup on, and show you off to the world when you're in sweats.
He will constantly remind you how lucky he is to have you.
He'll look in your eyes and tell you that you are the most beautiful woman in the world, and for the first time in your life... you'll believe it.
You will know when you find him ---
He will be the one who turns to his friends, and says...
"Thats her..."

I daresay that this was posted for a particular Femme.. and not as a means to imply that ALL Femme's need or want this. It was meant to bring a smile to a certain woman's face. It was meant to let her know that she was wanted, appreciated and cherished. I think that the purpose and the sentiment behind it is simple and beautiful. It was never intended to be anything other than the sweet words one shares when they find themselves wanting to speak from their heart.

None of us can speak for any one particular group. What one person may want/need will vary. I am a strong Femme Woman. I honor my Femme Sisters. At the same time I still wish for that "love of my life, best friend and soul mate." That doesn't make me any less strong or able to stand on my own. It also doesn't mean that I NEED that in my life but I do think it would be wonderful to find someday. I also respect that there are many people that have no desire for that kind of relationship and that's okay too. Honor that we are all different and appreciate the loving sentiment behind the message. We see enough hate and judgement out there in the world. It's nice to see a bit of love and appreciation.

[Tcountry]

Every femme should kno ...
... that her/hir(etc) ideas, ideals, dreams, passions, & realities are as unique as any freckles she may have, expression she chooses to show, & opinion she voices...
... that it is ok to want the fairytale & it's ok to be alone
... that u can cuss like a sailor & turn heads in ur favorite outfit
... that words like need, want, desire, passion, & romance mean different things to different people... kno what they mean to You
... kno your reality, dream your dreams, appreciate art(however it is expressed) for what it is & live the life that makes You happy

*tip hat*

[Corkey]

So we should not have the discussion? Or are we to not comment on misogyny? Or are we to sit placidly back while a whole group of people are marginalized?

Yea that's not going to happen obviously.

[GinaSofia]

JistMe, I loved your quote & didn't feel the need to dissect/inspect/analyze/criticize it.
I LOVE catching my Love looking at me when I least expect it.It happened just tonight before I read your post so when I did read your post it made me feel all mushy. Thanks!
I'm also fortunate to receive everything else from the quote from my spouse(except the watching me sleep bit-she sleeps like a bear & I rarely do). While I don't need it to validate me, it sure feels fucking good!
You don't need anyone to validate you or your posts(unless you're violating the TOA) so, let everyone's differing opinions roll off your back. Someone will always find some reason to get their stinger out of joint.

[GinaSofia]

Let us not forget.

Being Femme means you honor and respect your Femme Sisters.

Being a Femme's Femme is more important than any Butch on this planet.

What?
I'm married before anything else. My spouse will always come before any friendship, femme or other. I didn't take vows with any of my friends to put them before all others & I wouldn't expect my friends to put me in higher regard than their SO's either.

[~ocean]

** applauds gina ** i loved that poem that "jist me" shared :) as well. I'd like to be the jewl in hys eyes.

[Julie]

What?
I'm married before anything else. My spouse will always come before any friendship, femme or other. I didn't take vows with any of my friends to put them before all others & I wouldn't expect my friends to put me in higher regard than their SO's either.

What is the question?
Or are you just making a statement?
Confused by your language structure.

Julie

[Julie]

Oh yes... I did. I learned how new people must feel coming in here, and trying to post. Lucky for me, I am not a newbie.... have been a poster many years.
And no... I am not scared to post again. There's not much in this life that does scare me, and a little criticism is not on the list.
I'm just a little disheartened that something so simple, and well intended .... can be taken so literally that people even have a 'discussion' about it.
Not to mention... it was posted in a forum that was supposed to be for writings and ramblings, and not a philosophical discussion board.
All of that aside, it has nothing to do with being afraid or intimidated... or even caring... about someone else's opinion. It has to do with what a waste of my time and energy it is for me to even go read the replies. Why post?
One last note --- It never ceases to amaze me how much people can (or THINK they can) glean from one silly post. I went from being in a sweet and swoony mood over a great girl, to now a chauvinistic pig... ? .....
Not a single one of you (aside from grenade) even know me. So.... quite the judgement leap on your part.
I am actually pretty sweet. I am polite, generous to a fault, and am one of the only ones to stand up for the ladies in chat, or in real life. I am all about a woman standing on her own two feet, and speaking her mind. She doesn't need me, or anyone else to be whole. That's what I love the most about them.
But then.... none of you know that. Do you?

Jist,

You are taking this from a negative standpoint, not a positive one. You are not seeing the value in your posting and how it brought out all of the positive words from Femme's.

If I were a Butch and saw how my original (while misogynistic in my view) posting was turned around and brought out some wonderful words (empowering) from Femme's -- I would be feeling pretty good right about now. I would feel as if I learned a great deal from some of the Femme's in this community. And I don't believe anybody took your head off. We just put our own thoughts in there (which we are entitled to do).

I clearly disagreed with the words of the writer of the prose. Especially coming from a Femme's standpoint (Mine).

Instead of thanking the Femme's who posted... You are feeling somewhat wounded. I am sorry for this.

Julie

[weatherboi]

i often see posts and threads that describe how femmes should act or be perceived. It leads to some really educational conversations about how greatly diverse and empowering the femme community is! i am always disappointed when it gets met with the same sentiment and defense. It is disheartening to see so many people get defensive about people making a stand for their own style of space. Can we please stop playing victim long enough to have a thoughtful conversation where everybody gets heard?

As a male identified person, i learned there are some things i am guilty of and i am glad people came in and spoke there minds about what is good for them and what isn't.

[Kobi]

I can see why Jist might be a little confused by the reaction and how to interpret it. Julie's clarification did help shed some insight on this.

I am a little confused myself and trust someone can help me out.

The original title: "what every Femme should know", can be seen as a blanket(generalized) statement that might ruffle feathers.

"Being Femme means you honor and respect your Femme Sisters." and "Being a Femme's Femme is more important than any Butch on this planet." also appear to be blanket (generalized) statements yet they dont seem to be as much of an issue.

So, I am confused as to what exactly is it about blanket (generalizations)statements that is problematic?

Is it when the id of the OP may differ from from the id about whom the actual post is about that makes it problematic i.e. if a Femme posted it, it might not be quite as troublesome. But, a non Femme posting it makes it more indicative of <misogyny, stereotyping, whatever other terms work>.

Is it the actual content where one might be seen as disempowering while another is seen as empowering? If it is, then isnt this a dual standard? If it isnt, shouldnt both types of generalizations be addressed as issues?

Is it popular opinion? By this I mean, if we agree with what is said, does it make it ok as opposed to when we dont agree with it?

Is it a combination? Or maybe something I am not even thinking of at the moment?

I thought I understood it. Now I am not so sure.

[Julie]

I can see why Jist might be a little confused by the reaction and how to interpret it. Julie's clarification did help shed some insight on this.

I am a little confused myself and trust someone can help me out.

The original title: "what every Femme should know", can be seen as a blanket(generalized) statement that might ruffle feathers.

"Being Femme means you honor and respect your Femme Sisters." and "Being a Femme's Femme is more important than any Butch on this planet." also appear to be blanket (generalized) statements yet they dont seem to be as much of an issue.

So, I am confused as to what exactly is it about blanket (generalizations)statements that is problematic?

Is it when the id of the OP may differ from from the id about whom the actual post is about that makes it problematic i.e. if a Femme posted it, it might not be quite as troublesome. But, a non Femme posting it makes it more indicative of <misogyny, stereotyping, whatever other terms work>.

Is it the actual content where one might be seen as disempowering while another is seen as empowering? If it is, then isnt this a dual standard? If it isnt, shouldnt both types of generalizations be addressed as issues?

Is it popular opinion? By this I mean, if we agree with what is said, does it make it ok as opposed to when we dont agree with it?

Is it a combination? Or maybe something I am not even thinking of at the moment?

I thought I understood it. Now I am not so sure.





Kobi,

I would like to answer your questions based on my perspective.

As we know, the title of any subject can hold as great a bearing as the actual content. Be it a post here on the planet, a magazine article or the title of a poem.

When I read, "What every Femme should know." My automatic response is to read what perhaps I am missing as a Femme. Hmmm, perhaps I have not learned something in my 50 years of life and my 33 years of being an identified Femme (though I have had some lapses for personal reasons).

I do know this from a personal standpoint. In my younger years, I thought I needed to be adored and worshiped by my partner to have any value. I had long hair, just so my partner could sweep the hair in front of my eyes and would see me as more feminine. When they spent money on me, I felt loved. I wanted to hear how lucky they were, because honestly... I did not have the value within myself to believe it on my own. I wanted to be told that I was beautiful and sexy, because I did not feel this inside. It gave me validation as a Femme.

When I cut off all my hair... I was challenged. Are you really a Femme? You and I have spoken on the phone Kobi. You have heard my voice Kobi and know that I have an extremely deep voice. Not a voice of a girl. I am often mistaken for a Sir. I have heard, are you really a Femme. Years ago, this would have shamed me. These are my issues... Not the issues of any other person that I am speaking about. When I lost (partial) my breast - I lost a sense of my femininity. I felt like I was not Feminine enough to wear the clothes that made me sexy at one time. What a Femme should know... For me. None of the above matters. If I can say out loud here, what other Femme's might be feeling, similar to what I have felt in the past. Then that is a good thing. I am a Femme. I have the knowledge about being a Femme that a butch just does not have. This is not to say, I have the knowledge what all Femme's should feel. Feelings are personal.

Regardless if the OP identifies as Male Identified, Heterosexual, Female or anything else which might fall in between, matters not to me. I responded based on the Title and then of course on the content.

I believe we are all entitled to our opinions. And in being entitled to our opinions, we are "all," welcome to post them. I do not believe anybody attacked the OP. Strong and beautiful self empowered Femme's came in here, and gave their own rendition.

If a Femme came in here and posted the same content. My response and reaction would be the same. I would have come in and posted it. If a Femme says to me. You know Julie, if you were just a little bit more domestic (a lot actually) and cooked and cleaned for your butch... You might be able to hold on to one long enough. True that! But the fact of the matter... I am not domestic and I certainly am not going to change the character of my being to keep a butch. Some might. And some garner pleasure for the acts of domestication. I do not. Regardless if it makes my Butch feel love and adored. I am not doing it. Anymore than I want my Butch to do something for me that does not garner them pleasure.

What every Butch should know!

What should every Butch know?
Simple - Do not tell me how I am supposed to feel.
Just as I would NEVER tell you how you are supposed to feel.

Honoring my sisters is huge for me. For me. I know they have my back. I know I have their backs. I know I would go to the depths of the world for some of these sisters of mine. I know they would do the same for me. I do hope Butches have similar relationships with their Butch Sisters/Brothers.

Julie

[JAGG]

Always turn your headlights on when its raining . Without fail .

Don't drive around on bald or underinflated tires. Its like playing russian roulette with a car.

Those oil air freshner plug ins get really hot if they run out of oil they can catch on fire pretty easily.

Have a chimney co. Clean your fireplace once a year. It costs about 70 dollars, a dirty chimney its one of the leading causes of house fires.

[Julie]

Always turn your headlights on when its raining . Without fail .

Don't drive around on bald or underinflated tires. Its like playing russian roulette with a car.

Those oil air freshner plug ins get really hot if they run out of oil they can catch on fire pretty easily.

Have a chimney co. Clean your fireplace once a year. It costs about 70 dollars, a dirty chimney its one of the leading causes of house fires.

Jagg,

Is this something Every Femme should know? Or Butches too?

Just curious.

Good information, I had no idea about oil air fresheners. Good thing I don't use them. I am horrible about unplugging things.

Julie

[Kobi]

Kobi,

I would like to answer your questions based on my perspective.

As we know, the title of any subject can hold as great a bearing as the actual content. Be it a post here on the planet, a magazine article or the title of a poem.

When I read, "What every Femme should know." My automatic response is to read what perhaps I am missing as a Femme. Hmmm, perhaps I have not learned something in my 50 years of life and my 33 years of being an identified Femme (though I have had some lapses for personal reasons).

I do know this from a personal standpoint. In my younger years, I thought I needed to be adored and worshiped by my partner to have any value. I had long hair, just so my partner could sweet the hair in front of my eyes and would see me as more feminine. When they spent money on me, I felt loved. I wanted to hear how lucky they were, because honestly... I did not have the value within myself to believe it on my own. I wanted to be told that I was beautiful and sexy, because I did not feel this inside. It gave me validation as a Femme.

When I cut off all my hair... I was challenged. Are you really a Femme? You and I have spoken on the phone Kobi. You have heard my voice Kobi and know that I have an extremely deep voice. Not a voice of a girl. I am often mistaken for a Sir. I have heard, are you really a Femme. Years ago, this would have shamed me. These are my issues... Not the issues of any other person that I am speaking about. When I lost (partial) my breast - I lost a sense of my femininity. I felt like I was not Feminine enough to wear the clothes that made me sexy at one time. What a Femme should know... For me. None of the above matters. If I can say out loud here, what other Femme's might be feeling, similar to what I have felt in the past. Then that is a good thing. I am a Femme. I have the knowledge about being a Femme that a butch just does not have. This is not to say, I have the knowledge what all Femme's should feel. Feelings are personal.

Regardless if the OP identifies as Male Identified, Heterosexual, Female or anything else which might fall in between, matters not to me. I responded based on the Title and then of course on the content.

I believe we are all entitled to our opinions. And in being entitled to our opinions, we are "all," welcome to post them. I do not believe anybody attacked the OP. Strong and beautiful self empowered Femme's came in here, and gave their own rendition.

If a Femme came in here and posted the same content. My response and reaction would be the same. I would have come in and posted it. If a Femme says to me. You know Julie, if you were just a little bit more domestic (a lot actually) and cooked and cleaned for your butch... You might be able to hold on to one long enough. True that! But the fact of the matter... I am not domestic and I certainly am not going to change the character of my being to keep a butch. Some might. And some garner pleasure for the acts of domestication. I do not. Regardless if it makes my Butch feel love and adored. I am not doing it. Anymore than I want my Butch to do something for me that does not garner them pleasure.

What every Butch should know!

What should every Butch know?
Simple - Do not tell me how I am supposed to feel.
Just as I would NEVER tell you how you are supposed to feel.

Honoring my sisters is huge for me. For me. I know they have my back. I know I have their backs. I know I would go to the depths of the world for some of these sisters of mine. I know they would do the same for me. I do hope Butches have similar relationships with their Butch Sisters/Brothers.

Julie


Julie, thank you for answering. I think I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure it solves my confusion. Let me try it this way:

You wrote..."Being a Femme's Femme is more important than any Butch on this planet."

To me, this says, in order to be a Femme's Femme all Femmes are require to believe the sisterhood is more important than any Butch/partner/spouse. It sounds to be as a general statement alerting Femme's as to expected/required behavior of being a Femme's Femme. Is that different from just being a Femme?

Now this might not be what you meant. It might just be how I interpreted it.

Then you said:

"What should every Butch know?
Simple - Do not tell me how I am supposed to feel.
Just as I would NEVER tell you how you are supposed to feel."

And, now I am confused because the first statement, to me, indicated you were saying this is how a Femme was supposed to feel/believe/act in order to be a Femme's Femme.

And then you are saying we shouldnt ever tell someone else how to feel.

Are you clarifying what you meant to say initially i.e. this is just your take on it? Or are these 2 different standards? Or, have I now totally confused myself even more?

[apretty]

I am a little confused myself and trust someone can help me out.


It's patronizing, pandering and least of all, heteronormative--Which is all great if I consent and but none of us did.

The title could have read, 'Here's where I degrade and patronize Femme and perpetuate female-feeble mindedness' and that's cool, I wouldn't have reason to read that thread.

I hope that helps your confusion.

[Kobi]

It's patronizing, pandering and least of all, heteronormative--Which is all great if I consent and but none of us did.

The title could have read, 'Here's where I degrade and patronize Femme and perpetuate female-feeble mindedness' and that's cool, I wouldn't have reason to read that thread.

I hope that helps your confusion.

LOL, I got that part. Kobi not that dense. Well sometimes. I understood why it might be insulting to some. I can also see it wasnt insulting to some. Perspective.

[Julie]

Julie, thank you for answering. I think I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure it solves my confusion. Let me try it this way:

You wrote..."Being a Femme's Femme is more important than any Butch on this planet."

To me, this says, in order to be a Femme's Femme all Femmes are require to believe the sisterhood is more important than any Butch/partner/spouse. It sounds to be as a general statement alerting Femme's as to expected/required behavior of being a Femme's Femme. Is that different from just being a Femme?

Now this might not be what you meant. It might just be how I interpreted it.

Then you said:

"What should every Butch know?
Simple - Do not tell me how I am supposed to feel.
Just as I would NEVER tell you how you are supposed to feel."

And, now I am confused because the first statement, to me, indicated you were saying this is how a Femme was supposed to feel/believe/act in order to be a Femme's Femme.

And then you are saying we shouldnt ever tell someone else how to feel.

Are you clarifying what you meant to say initially i.e. this is just your take on it? Or are these 2 different standards? Or, have I now totally confused myself even more?



Kobi,

I think you are reading more into it than I intended.

I do not place Femme's higher on my love list than I place my partner who is Butch. I love my Femme sisters differently. My relationship with my Femme Sisters is different than my relationship with my partner and it is different than my relationships with Butches or Trans Guys for that matter.

Let's use this as an example (Femme's Femme) and why my Femme Sisters and that Sisterhood is more important. I am not saying that I would be okay with a Femme Sister if they did something hurtful and unkind. I would call them out and perhaps I would question my friendship with them.

Two Femme (Femme A and Femme B) friends are at a party. Femme (A) has made it known she has this crush on this Butch. All of her friends know this and the two of them have been communicating and slowly developing. While Femme A and Femme B are not great friends, they are social at times and are friendly. Femme B gets a look at said Butch and slowly makes her move. Femme B has the knowledge that Femme A is developing this relationship. Femme B does not care. Femme B has decided at all costs to move in and make her play.

A Femme's Femme would not do this. A Femme's Femme would respect Femme A and step back.

Another Example.

Femme A knows that Femme B and Butch are having relationship issues. She consoles and acts as a confidant to Femme B. Femme B cries in the ear of Femme A. Femme B is heartbroken when the relationship ends and in the process has shared intimate details with Femme A.

Femme A makes her move. She then slides in and friends the Butch. They start developing a relationship and not only has Femme B lost her partner, she has been manipulated and hurt by her friend Femme A.

A Femme's Femme would never ever ever do this.

My reference to what every butch should know, was a tad sarcastic. Perhaps why it appeared as a double standard and confusing. I would never assume to know what anybody should know. I only have my experiences. The only thing that I would ever possibly say that a Butch should know - Show your Femme respect. But I would say this to a Femme as well. Just be respectful, but hopefully everybody already knows this.

That is not to say, people should not date who they want and find love. But this is a tough one. Where do you draw the line?

Example:
I have shared many intimate details about my relationship with some of my Femme Sisters. My partner knows I share these things. Intimate details which have helped me process aspects of my relationship. DJ and I break up. My dear dear Femme Sister decides it is okay to pursue my ex without talking to me. Talk to me FIRST! But for god sake, give me time to heal.

I have fixed up friends with two of my exes. I thought... WOW, these two would make a great match. Different than the above example. I had a friend tell me years later, she ran into an ex of mine. How would I feel if they pursued something. I thought it great. After an ex and I broke up, and the wounds were still painful for me. A Femme I know called me and asked if I would put in a good word for her. Put in a good word? Are you kidding me? Not a Femme's Femme.

Make more sense?

Julie

[Novelafemme]

Kobi,

I would like to answer your questions based on my perspective.

As we know, the title of any subject can hold as great a bearing as the actual content. Be it a post here on the planet, a magazine article or the title of a poem.

When I read, "What every Femme should know." My automatic response is to read what perhaps I am missing as a Femme. Hmmm, perhaps I have not learned something in my 50 years of life and my 33 years of being an identified Femme (though I have had some lapses for personal reasons).

I do know this from a personal standpoint. In my younger years, I thought I needed to be adored and worshiped by my partner to have any value. I had long hair, just so my partner could sweep the hair in front of my eyes and would see me as more feminine. When they spent money on me, I felt loved. I wanted to hear how lucky they were, because honestly... I did not have the value within myself to believe it on my own. I wanted to be told that I was beautiful and sexy, because I did not feel this inside. It gave me validation as a Femme.

When I cut off all my hair... I was challenged. Are you really a Femme? You and I have spoken on the phone Kobi. You have heard my voice Kobi and know that I have an extremely deep voice. Not a voice of a girl. I am often mistaken for a Sir. I have heard, are you really a Femme. Years ago, this would have shamed me. These are my issues... Not the issues of any other person that I am speaking about. When I lost (partial) my breast - I lost a sense of my femininity. I felt like I was not Feminine enough to wear the clothes that made me sexy at one time. What a Femme should know... For me. None of the above matters. If I can say out loud here, what other Femme's might be feeling, similar to what I have felt in the past. Then that is a good thing. I am a Femme. I have the knowledge about being a Femme that a butch just does not have. This is not to say, I have the knowledge what all Femme's should feel. Feelings are personal.

Regardless if the OP identifies as Male Identified, Heterosexual, Female or anything else which might fall in between, matters not to me. I responded based on the Title and then of course on the content.

I believe we are all entitled to our opinions. And in being entitled to our opinions, we are "all," welcome to post them. I do not believe anybody attacked the OP. Strong and beautiful self empowered Femme's came in here, and gave their own rendition.

If a Femme came in here and posted the same content. My response and reaction would be the same. I would have come in and posted it. If a Femme says to me. You know Julie, if you were just a little bit more domestic (a lot actually) and cooked and cleaned for your butch... You might be able to hold on to one long enough. True that! But the fact of the matter... I am not domestic and I certainly am not going to change the character of my being to keep a butch. Some might. And some garner pleasure for the acts of domestication. I do not. Regardless if it makes my Butch feel love and adored. I am not doing it. Anymore than I want my Butch to do something for me that does not garner them pleasure.

What every Butch should know!

What should every Butch know?
Simple - Do not tell me how I am supposed to feel.
Just as I would NEVER tell you how you are supposed to feel.

Honoring my sisters is huge for me. For me. I know they have my back. I know I have their backs. I know I would go to the depths of the world for some of these sisters of mine. I know they would do the same for me. I do hope Butches have similar relationships with their Butch Sisters/Brothers.

Julie

This ENTIRE post. In its entirety. Gorgeous! Julie for President!!! (f)

[Kobi]

Kobi,

I think you are reading more into it than I intended.

I do not place Femme's higher on my love list than I place my partner who is Butch. I love my Femme sisters differently. My relationship with my Femme Sisters is different than my relationship with my partner and it is different than my relationships with Butches or Trans Guys for that matter.

Let's use this as an example (Femme's Femme) and why my Femme Sisters and that Sisterhood is more important. I am not saying that I would be okay with a Femme Sister if they did something hurtful and unkind. I would call them out and perhaps I would question my friendship with them.

Two Femme (Femme A and Femme B) friends are at a party. Femme (A) has made it known she has this crush on this Butch. All of her friends know this and the two of them have been communicating and slowly developing. While Femme A and Femme B are not great friends, they are social at times and are friendly. Femme B gets a look at said Butch and slowly makes her move. Femme B has the knowledge that Femme A is developing this relationship. Femme B does not care. Femme B has decided at all costs to move in and make her play.

A Femme's Femme would not do this. A Femme's Femme would respect Femme A and step back.

Another Example.

Femme A knows that Femme B and Butch are having relationship issues. She consoles and acts as a confidant to Femme B. Femme B cries in the ear of Femme A. Femme B is heartbroken when the relationship ends and in the process has shared intimate details with Femme A.

Femme A makes her move. She then slides in and friends the Butch. They start developing a relationship and not only has Femme B lost her partner, she has been manipulated and hurt by her friend Femme A.

A Femme's Femme would never ever ever do this.

My reference to what every butch should know, was a tad sarcastic. Perhaps why it appeared as a double standard and confusing. I would never assume to know what anybody should know. I only have my experiences. The only thing that I would ever possibly say that a Butch should know - Show your Femme respect. But I would say this to a Femme as well. Just be respectful, but hopefully everybody already knows this.

That is not to say, people should not date who they want and find love. But this is a tough one. Where do you draw the line?

Example:
I have shared many intimate details about my relationship with some of my Femme Sisters. My partner knows I share these things. Intimate details which have helped me process aspects of my relationship. DJ and I break up. My dear dear Femme Sister decides it is okay to pursue my ex without talking to me. Talk to me FIRST! But for god sake, give me time to heal.

I have fixed up friends with two of my exes. I thought... WOW, these two would make a great match. Different than the above example. I had a friend tell me years later, she ran into an ex of mine. How would I feel if they pursued something. I thought it great. After an ex and I broke up, and the wounds were still painful for me. A Femme I know called me and asked if I would put in a good word for her. Put in a good word? Are you kidding me? Not a Femme's Femme.

Make more sense?

Julie



Ok. I think I got you now.

You seem to be saying 2 things - there is a friendship code, so to speak, of behavior you expect from people who know you well, In my head, that is a friend thing not a Butch or Femme thing.

Then there is a Femme code of honor, so to speak, as to expected behavior in a relatively closed community in order to promote harmony rather then conflict.

Yes?

[Julie]

Ok. I think I got you now.

You seem to be saying 2 things - there is a friendship code, so to speak, of behavior you expect from people who know you well, In my head, that is a friend thing not a Butch or Femme thing.

Then there is a Femme code of honor, so to speak, as to expected behavior in a relatively closed community in order to promote harmony rather then conflict.

Yes?


Exactly. Butch or Femme... Behave appropriately.
Code of Honor... Simply respect for one another. Sex is not as important as friendships, when there is a cost to be paid.

Yes.

[NorCalStud]

First thing I looked at when op posted is their join date and their number of posts. Jan.2012 5posts. On the way to education...the op was laughed at, kinda yelled at, and I dont know this person but (no pun intended) if it was just me...I might look at the two words double message in our communities. If their had been a vibeswatcher....?? Not such a good vibe. I have to be honest...the way the op was educated gives me pause for thought about moving in closer in this community

[BullDog]

An individual copies and pastes something they find on the internet.

Then other individuals- mostly femmes- add their own personal and very detailed responses to a thread entitled "What Every Femme Should Know" and they are the ones being criticized? Wow.

I don't see the conversation being critical of the OP since he didn't write it.

If someone wants to send a special message to an individual femme they like maybe a different title would convey that better. If the message appealed to the one femme then mission accomplished and why so defensive?

I personally am finding a lot of value in this conversation.

[LaneyDoll]

The OP reminded me of a poem someone once shared with me. Soooooo, I think I am going to go share it now...

:sparklyheart:

[NorCalStud]

You know the segment on snl where they examine an issue and say "cmon really" at some point. I gotta say it. Cmon really.

I agree because Im a feminist. We are educating about the use of the word Every. Wrong choice of word

Im discussing how the education was delivered. It wasnt as loving as it could have been. Cmon really...the whole story has to include the part in the education where the op was made fun of

[Dude]

I dont see the laughing at or any yelling.
what >every< femme should know is a big statement

the poster is responsible for what they put out there
is this really gonna be called bullying stuff in here ?

[Tawse]

To me - I read it like I read Twilight (yes I did read all four books and I still think book four was written by some rabid fans).

It was on one hand fun to read and on the other hand - deeply disturbing.

It's not realistic.

Now - we all like to escape reality at times - and that type of love and attraction (remember Edward DID watch Bella all night) is... wow.

But then when you think about the *reality* of that - it's creepy and completely unrealistic.


Ok now on to the title. If a femme posted about something all butches/TGs/FtMs should know - and it contained stuff that was unrealistic and creepy. I'd probably say something.

I don't know. I'm torn.

I get the romantic gesture.

But I really don't want anyone staring at me all night, or during a movie, or being so consumed by me that if I decided we weren't going to work out - I'd be scared of them stalking or killing me.

But that being said..

I read all four of the twilight books


but that being said...

I make fun of them all the time.


See I'm conflicted. lol

[Julie]

First thing I looked at when op posted is their join date and their number of posts. Jan.2012 5posts. On the way to education...the op was laughed at, kinda yelled at, and I dont know this person but (no pun intended) if it was just me...I might look at the two words double message in our communities. If their had been a vibeswatcher....?? Not such a good vibe. I have to be honest...the way the op was educated gives me pause for thought about moving in closer in this community

We all have our various ways of reacting and responding.

I have read through all of the posts and I do not see where the OP was yelled at. I think many of us have tried to educate and explain the problem with such a posting as this.

Where is your education in this? I would like to know how you would speak to the OP in a constructive manner that would inform and educate, not only him, but other members of our community who might do the same thing.

Julie

[LaneyDoll]

Now - we all like to escape reality at times - and that type of love and attraction (remember Edward DID watch Bella all night) is... wow.

But then when you think about the *reality* of that - it's creepy and completely unrealistic.


Ok now on to the title. If a femme posted about something all butches/TGs/FtMs should know - and it contained stuff that was unrealistic and creepy. I'd probably say something.

I don't know. I'm torn.

I get the romantic gesture.

But I really don't want anyone staring at me all night, or during a movie, or being so consumed by me that if I decided we weren't going to work out - I'd be scared of them stalking or killing me.



I have had this happen with two different people.

One person I had been with for years. And one night, he drove hours just to watch me sleep. Kind of sweet.

The other, I was dating. And she told me that she stayed up and watched me sleep. Kind of creepy. THEN, she decided to do something "romantic" and called me when she knew I would not answer so that she could sing "You Are My Sunshine" to my voice mail. When I got the message a few days later (I never check voice mail) it felt bizarre and stalkerish but mostly because she sang in a whispery, breathy, "Happy Birthday Mr. President sans Marilyn Monroe sexiness" kind of voice. Sing it to yourself-see how it sounds; I will wait while you shudder.

I think that with ALL gestures, there is always a way to add in the weird, psychopathic overtones.

:sparklyheart:

[Novelafemme]

i often see posts and threads that describe how femmes should act or be perceived. It leads to some really educational conversations about how greatly diverse and empowering the femme community is! i am always disappointed when it gets met with the same sentiment and defense. It is disheartening to see so many people get defensive about people making a stand for their own style of space. Can we please stop playing victim long enough to have a thoughtful conversation where everybody gets heard?

As a male identified person, i learned there are some things i am guilty of and i am glad people came in and spoke there minds about what is good for them and what isn't.

JistMe,

I would encourage you to read the above post and then read it again a couple more times after that. There are a great many things to be learned from some of our wonderful male identified community members. And something you might want to perhaps think about (or not) is checking those defensive behaviors at the door and leaving your mind and heart wide open to the amazing knowledge and life experiences you can absorb from long time B-F planteers. It takes a while (I know from personal experience) but it is so worth it! (f)

[Tawse]

One person I had been with for years. And one night, he drove hours just to watch me sleep.
:sparklyheart:


I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep. ;)


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

[Novelafemme]

I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep. ;)


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol


You are sooooo wrong. ;)

[LaneyDoll]

I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep. ;)


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

If he had told me he was coming, I would have stayed up!!!

lol

:sparklyheart:

[JAGG]

Tell us what you think

And also, there are a few of us that would be rich if we had a dollar for every time we pissed someone off.
Better to be pissed off than pissed on I always say. Jist keep on posting friend who cares if people don't agree with what you like or think. No one is attacking you personally so don't take it so personal. If someone did or does in the future Admin will step in and correct the problem. You can post that the sky is blue and someone is going to make a post saying they disagree and yet another will be offended by your blanket statement. So they disagree . Big deal, who cares? If that's what I think and someone disagrees , so they different view point than I do. Doesn't make one wrong or the other one right, just different. Doesn't mean that person hates you or thinks less of you, it simply means they disagree. I love Juile to death and I'm sure she feels the same about me and I have disagreed an debated a 100 times in posts through the years. I know sometimes Lady Snow would love to hang me by my eyelashes,in some posts but go look at other posts and we are thanking each other. Because we don't dislike the person just disagree with a view point. So don't take it so hard. I don't care if everyone on the planet disagreed with a post I made, disagree until your heart is content but I will still have that same view point regardless. I respect their view I understand where they are coming from but I still see it differently. That's the beauty of it. Free speech. That's what makes a thread interesting. If everyone agreed with you this thread would have 4 posts and die off. But look how its rolling. Even the people that agree with you probably agree for totally different reasons than you do. But that's how threads work. You say something, someone else chimes in , and on it goes. Just keep posting friend say whatever you need to say and hit submitt. Don't worry about who likes it and who doesn't .

[Kobi]

We all have our various ways of reacting and responding.

I have read through all of the posts and I do not see where the OP was yelled at. I think many of us have tried to educate and explain the problem with such a posting as this.

Where is your education in this? I would like to know how you would speak to the OP in a constructive manner that would inform and educate, not only him, but other members of our community who might do the same thing.

Julie



I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

[Corkey]

I think the usage of words is important, if the title had been something along the lines of what every femme should know ( about me ) then perhaps it may have made it more palatable.
Blanket statements tend to get discussed, as they should. Making "I" statements not so much.
I do not believe anyone attacked the op, and speaking for me, this is me being "nice".
I think integrity and honesty are important, and explaining why blanket statements are not such a good thing in any community.
Sentiments are great, but stereotypical misogynistic statements are going to get discussed. Yey for diversity!

[weatherboi]

i don't equate passion for hostility. i think it is on the reader not to make up stuff in there heads about a members tone of post. we are all adults here and as long as everybody is following the TOS it should be all good. Honestly all this talk of how the femmes should voice their opinions and the accusations of yelling and laughing sounds like the same old deflective song and dance some butches and transguys do when they have a hard time accepting they have crossed a boundary or insulted some femme or not femme members.

[BullDog]

Passionate does not equate hostility.

Kobi, why are you always trying to control the "tone" of how people speak (usually femmes)? It is seriously irritating.

[Julie]

I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

I have been really working hard to not react and respond. I know in the past, I have jumped in and voiced my very strong opinion. Sometimes it was valid and warranted, other times I know I could have handled the situation better. But emotions do come in. We are all human beings with one common attribute. We are emotional. Be it rational or irrational, emotions are simply that.

Each of us here have our own skills in communicating. Not all people can formulate the structure of educating posters in one form or another. We all have our individual styles. I have been accused on numerous occasions of ganging up - dog piling, etc. I will use my relationship with Snow as an example. Snow and I are friends. We also share a lot of the same political views, as well as how we as Femme's and Women prefer to be addressed and spoken to.

And here comes the BAM!

If Snow is positing in a thread which might be controversial and then I come in and post in that thread, with similar thought processes - We are immediately called out for ganging up on the person. This is really unfair Kobi and unjust. It just so happens that we are friends and share similar thought processes. I stopped posting for awhile, because I got tired of people yelling and screaming gang bang or dog pile. It got really old. I thought about NOT posting in this thread, because Snow posted before me - but I said... Bullshit. These are my thoughts and emotions and I have every right to post in a thread, as does Snow, as do you and as does every other community member here, without people screaming their automatic response of being bullied because they are being called out.

I am glad we had the dialogue we did. It was absolutely constructive and it was good. But I do want to say. Just because we had the dialogue we did and it was positive - does not mean others will have the same type of dialogue. We all communicate differently and that is in part what makes this community so rich and diverse.

Julie

[JAGG]

Don't ever grab the muffler of a hot lawn mower with your bare hand.
Do not EVER ride your bike off a roof. Even a small close to the ground one over your back porch.
Those plastic drycleaner bags make nice superman capes but not so good parachutes.
Umbrellas make terrible parachutes
Do not take a big whiff of smelling salts to see what they smell like.
Witch hazel is NOT the same thing as vinegar.
Boats do not have brakes.

Don't ask me how I know.

[joyfulfemme]

thanks for sharing such caring thoughts....we all see expressions of love differently and the ones you shared here speak to how you choose to honor your femme....i applaud you and your tenderness

[Kobi]

Passionate does not equate hostility.

Kobi, why are you always trying to control the "tone" of how people speak (usually femmes)? It is seriously irritating.



Julie asked how we could make the process more constructive.

This makes sense given we are a developing community with new members added everyday who are going to make mistakes. Looking at how we can deal with mistakes more effectively without hurting peoples feelings in the process makes sense to me.

I voiced my opinion on the matter based on my experience in this thread today. And, I voiced why I felt the way I did.

You know what irritates me? It irritates me that I saw the original post before anyone responded to it. I could have said something to Jist and I didnt. And I didnt because I didnt want to get stuck in the middle of what I knew was going to be a problem. I didnt want to deal with the passion that was likely to find it way to me.

Knowing I did this makes me feel pretty fucking shitty about me. I let Jist down. And I let me down. Just like the Femmes have a code of honor, so do we butches. I dropped the ball here simply because I didnt want to put up with the bull. And that is making me feel pretty fucking cowardly.

And Jist, I owe you an apology. I should have said something to you and I didnt. I'm sorry. Maybe if we can discuss this without people getting chaffed, we can stop this from happening to other people.

If you need to feel chaffed, do it. I got my own irritations to deal with and, today, you are not going to be one of them.

[Corkey]

I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

See Kobi I have a problem with some of your statement here and I'll highlight it. I have a right to speak up about subjects that are problematic, as does everyone. Some times I feel as though you are trying to silence me, and others by your statements. I usually get past it because I don't let anyone silence me, be that as it may. The learning curve is different for everyone, thing is someone may have a different way of learning than you or I do. Not everything is obvious.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Oh yes... I did. I learned how new people must feel coming in here, and trying to post. Lucky for me, I am not a newbie.... have been a poster many years.
And no... I am not scared to post again. There's not much in this life that does scare me, and a little criticism is not on the list.
I'm just a little disheartened that something so simple, and well intended .... can be taken so literally that people even have a 'discussion' about it.
Not to mention... it was posted in a forum that was supposed to be for writings and ramblings, and not a philosophical discussion board.
All of that aside, it has nothing to do with being afraid or intimidated... or even caring... about someone else's opinion. It has to do with what a waste of my time and energy it is for me to even go read the replies. Why post?
One last note --- It never ceases to amaze me how much people can (or THINK they can) glean from one silly post. I went from being in a sweet and swoony mood over a great girl, to now a chauvinistic pig... ? .....
Not a single one of you (aside from grenade) even know me. So.... quite the judgement leap on your part.
I am actually pretty sweet. I am polite, generous to a fault, and am one of the only ones to stand up for the ladies in chat, or in real life. I am all about a woman standing on her own two feet, and speaking her mind. She doesn't need me, or anyone else to be whole. That's what I love the most about them.
But then.... none of you know that. Do you?


I didn't realize from the get go what zone the thread was in because the title is what caught my attention...

"What Every Femme Should Know"

So I read the post, thought hmm, this makes no sense because not ALL Femme's want these things that were in the OP. Hence my post regarding it. There was no criticism tied to my posts regarding *you*

My thoughts and and posts were regarding things a Femme

should know because I thought at the beginning that's what it was about, a thread about what Femme's should know...


Your sentiment was sweet and now I understand that the title was meant for only one particular Femme hence the confusion and the voicing from a lot of Femme's about what we should know, sorry if you felt it was an attack against your character.. It really wasn't...


----------------------------------------------------------

JAGG I have NEVER wanted to hang you from your eye lids, see this is how rumors get started.... The eyelids would tear and cause a bloody mess, and I am pretty sure that blood play would be a limit....:|


As for the whole *gang bang* theory....

I think gang bang is an awfully violent yucky gross term to use when describing people coming in to voice different opinions and state how they feel. That's just me though...

If we're gonna focus on wording maybe we should focus on that terminology as well because truthfully I see no one running around shooting up anybody, cutting up anybody, or slicing up anyone, it's not violent in here its a bunch of folks with similar ideas and thoughts and some with not so similar ideas and thoughts discussing and I think learning I am unsure at this point...:canadian:

[Novelafemme]

Julie asked how we could make the process more constructive.

This makes sense given we are a developing community with new members added everyday who are going to make mistakes. Looking at how we can deal with mistakes more effectively without hurting peoples feelings in the process makes sense to me.

I voiced my opinion on the matter based on my experience in this thread today. And, I voiced why I felt the way I did.

You know what irritates me? It irritates me that I saw the original post before anyone responded to it. I could have said something to Jist and I didnt. And I didnt because I didnt want to get stuck in the middle of what I knew was going to be a problem. I didnt want to deal with the passion that was likely to find it way to me.

Knowing I did this makes me feel pretty fucking shitty about me. I let Jist down. And I let me down. Just like the Femmes have a code of honor, so do we butches. I dropped the ball here simply because I didnt want to put up with the bull. And that is making me feel pretty fucking cowardly.

And Jist, I owe you an apology. I should have said something to you and I didnt. I'm sorry. Maybe if we can discuss this without people getting chaffed, we can stop this from happening to other people.

If you need to feel chaffed, do it. I got my own irritations to deal with and, today, you are not going to be one of them.





I really think you are spending a lot of time and energy worrying about whether or not people (yourself included) are going to get their/your feelings hurt.

We have a magnet on our fridge at home that says, "put your big girl panties on and deal with it." 'Nuff said. We are all adults. Some of us more direct than others, some handle tough situations with humor (JAGG) ;) and others are natural peace-keepers. No one is right or wrong. What becomes challenging and frustrating is when people start personalizing everything, don't learn from situations, and continue to scream VICTIM!

I don't think you behaved cowardly, but I do read a lot of passive/agressiveness in your posts, and I personally don't generally have positive reactions to that sort of behavior. But that's just me.

[Kobi]

I will try and make this as simple as possible.

If you want to build bridges, you build bridges. To build bridges, it takes give and take, it takes adjustments on everyones part, it means being committed to learning new stuff that we might not want to learn. That means if someone tells you (generic you) they feel hostility, do you have the right to tell them they dont? Who is the better judge of what they feel and why they feel it...you or them?

If you dont want someone telling you (generic you) what you as a butch or femme should think and feel, you do not have the right to tell them they are not entitled to what they feel and think. It is a 2 way street. Cant get if you dont give. Well you can but thats how wars start.

If you want to build pseudo bridges i.e. the illusion of bridges without doing the actual work to actually build them, have at it. And when we keep revisiting history over and over again, are we justified in saying over and over this irritates me or that person irritates me cuz they dont agree with me, or why is my passion a problem etc? I dont think so.

I am not advocating people be silent. I was silent and it is making me feel crappy. I am not advocating people not be passionate. Passion is good. Im not even advocating you not be chaffed. Chaff away.

What I am advocating is, if the goal is to be constructive, then post constructively. You can be passionate and still be constructive. If the goal is to educate, you can still educate without making someone feel crappy in the process.

And if someone is telling you (generic you) that something you are doing or saying is making them feel crappy or attacked - stop and listen to them. Maybe you are doing something. Maybe that isnt your intent but that is how they are experiencing you at that moment. Will it fucking kill us to just stop and listen for a change? Might we actually learn something?

I dont want to chaff BullDog or make Corkey feel silenced or make Julie feel she cant post after someone else. I dont. It makes me feel bad that they think this. Its not my intent.

Let me ask this.... and let it stew a bit. When do we stop talking about looking out for our brothers and sisters and actually start doing it? Do we have as much responsibility to look out for Jist as we do to look out for Corkey or BullDog or Julie and anyone else I am bound to chaff today?

[starryeyes]

Don't ever grab the muffler of a hot lawn mower with your bare hand.
Do not EVER ride your bike off a roof. Even a small close to the ground one over your back porch.
Those plastic drycleaner bags make nice superman capes but not so good parachutes.
Umbrellas make terrible parachutes
Do not take a big whiff of smelling salts to see what they smell like.
Witch hazel is NOT the same thing as vinegar.
Boats do not have brakes.

Don't ask me how I know.

Haha!! This was awesome. Thanks for the laugh.

[NorCalStud]

Im almost sixty. It was not until I was almost 30 that I heard the whole story about north america.

What is a real story? The real story has all the parts...not some of the parts.

Part of the story of our reactions to this piece of our bfp herstory is that the op was made fun of. If you didnt do it then okay but it was done.

I am learning that info is all so Im trying to remember to ask questions first so that is one way I may have dealt with it. Curiosity is friendly. Everybody fucks words up. What I really want to know about someone is what their tone is and what they are reverant about. My part in this story has one purpose....to help some see...

[Corkey]

I will try and make this as simple as possible.

If you want to build bridges, you build bridges. To build bridges, it takes give and take, it takes adjustments on everyones part, it means being committed to learning new stuff that we might not want to learn. That means if someone tells you (generic you) they feel hostility, do you have the right to tell them they dont? Who is the better judge of what they feel and why they feel it...you or them?

If you dont want someone telling you (generic you) what you as a butch or femme should think and feel, you do not have the right to tell them they are not entitled to what they feel and think. It is a 2 way street. Cant get if you dont give. Well you can but thats how wars start.

If you want to build pseudo bridges i.e. the illusion of bridges without doing the actual work to actually build them, have at it. And when we keep revisiting history over and over again, are we justified in saying over and over this irritates me or that person irritates me cuz they dont agree with me, or why is my passion a problem etc? I dont think so.

I am not advocating people be silent. I was silent and it is making me feel crappy. I am not advocating people not be passionate. Passion is good. Im not even advocating you not be chaffed. Chaff away.

What I am advocating is, if the goal is to be constructive, then post constructively. You can be passionate and still be constructive. If the goal is to educate, you can still educate without making someone feel crappy in the process.

And if someone is telling you (generic you) that something you are doing or saying is making them feel crappy or attacked - stop and listen to them. Maybe you are doing something. Maybe that isnt your intent but that is how they are experiencing you at that moment. Will it fucking kill us to just stop and listen for a change? Might we actually learn something?

I dont want to chaff BullDog or make Corkey feel silenced or make Julie feel she cant post after someone else. I dont. It makes me feel bad that they think this. Its not my intent.

Let me ask this.... and let it stew a bit. When do we stop talking about looking out for our brothers and sisters and actually start doing it? Do we have as much responsibility to look out for Jist as we do to look out for Corkey or BullDog or Julie and anyone else I am bound to chaff today?



I think we have to be adults and look out for ourselves. If that means being blunt, then that's what it means. I think we have to be aware of our words, that they may turn around and bite us in the rump. Most importantly I think we have to be aware that our words can be offensive.
Do I think it was done deliberately, not in the least. Holding a defensive position for too long can scream victim, whether one is or not. Egging people on is kind of like waving a red towel at a bull, there's gonna be consequences.

[BullDog]

Kobi, why don't you practice what you preach.

Now, I am off with my sweetie to a basketball game. Go Lady Vols!

Have a great night everyone.

[Novelafemme]

"And if someone is telling you (generic you) that something you are doing or saying is making them feel crappy or attacked - stop and listen to them. Maybe you are doing something. Maybe that isnt your intent but that is how they are experiencing you at that moment. Will it fucking kill us to just stop and listen for a change? Might we actually learn something?

I dont want to chaff BullDog or make Corkey feel silenced or make Julie feel she cant post after someone else. I dont. It makes me feel bad that they think this. Its not my intent.

Let me ask this.... and let it stew a bit. When do we stop talking about looking out for our brothers and sisters and actually start doing it? Do we have as much responsibility to look out for Jist as we do to look out for Corkey or BullDog or Julie and anyone else I am bound to chaff today?"



Oh dear...this is getting quite redundant.

Feelings are wonderful and amazing and beneficial EMOTIONS! Behavior is how you actualize your thought process, the physical manifestation of how your brain interprets various stimuli, and ultimately, how you respond. If you interpret every situation emotionally than you are going to exhaust not only yourself but lots of others in trying to get everyone to not only see something from your perspective (which is emotional) but to agree with it as well.

[Scuba]

I didn't appear to ME that JistMe meant harm or was telling others what they should or should not be in life. It was simply an expression of emotion...

This is the writing and poetry thread. For the sake of having a place to expose ourselves through our writing WITHOUT persecution I ask you to PLEASE take this discussion to another thread more suitable for the topic.

Scoobs

[Novelafemme]

I didn't not appear to ME that JistMe meant harm or was telling others what they should or should be in life. It was simply an expression of emotion...

This is the writing and poetry thread. For the sake of having a place to expose ourselves through our writing WITHOUT persecution I ask you to PLEASE take this discussion to another thread more suitable for the topic.

Scoobs

My apologies, Scoobs. I just now, for the first time, looked up and saw where it was I am. I'm bad at that. :)

[Corkey]

I think calling out isms is appropriate in any thread.

[Dude]

I didn't not appear to ME that JistMe meant harm or was telling others what they should or should be in life. It was simply an expression of emotion...

This is the writing and poetry thread. For the sake of having a place to expose ourselves through our writing WITHOUT persecution I ask you to PLEASE take this discussion to another thread more suitable for the topic.

Scoobs

are you a new moderator or something?
and who gets to decide more suitable?

[LaneyDoll]

I didn't appear to ME that JistMe meant harm or was telling others what they should or should be in life. It was simply an expression of emotion...

This is the writing and poetry thread. For the sake of having a place to expose ourselves through our writing WITHOUT persecution I ask you to PLEASE take this discussion to another thread more suitable for the topic.

Scoobs


Thank you for the reminder :)

:sparklyheart:

[Scuba]

are you a new moderator or something?

No and by no means do I want a job like that...but I do like this thread.

I am not saying we shouldn't call out "isms" I just think another thread can be started to address that directly. We have a whole site for that. Why not use it. :)

All opinions are of value in my eyes. I have nothing against anyone here and I'm not here to argue. I would just like to see this area maintain it's purpose which is writing and poetry.

Cheers,

Scoobs

[Corkey]

No and by no means do I want a job like that...but I do like this thread.

I am not saying we shouldn't call out "isms" I just think another thread can be started to address that directly. We have a whole site for that. Why not use it. :)

All opinions are of value in my eyes. I have nothing against anyone here and I'm not here to argue. I would just like to see this area maintain it's purpose which is writing and poetry.

Cheers,

Scoobs

While I agree that another thread might be in order, the offense happened here, therefore here is as good a place to address it as any other.

[Julie]

I didn't appear to ME that JistMe meant harm or was telling others what they should or should not be in life. It was simply an expression of emotion...

This is the writing and poetry thread. For the sake of having a place to expose ourselves through our writing WITHOUT persecution I ask you to PLEASE take this discussion to another thread more suitable for the topic.

Scoobs

Indeed it is the Poetry Thread. Quotes, Snippets and Other Writing. However, that does not mean there is not room for dialogue and discussion about said writing.

Are you making an attempt to censor the feelings of others, when it comes to the prose/poem that was posted? When in fact, this poem can be searched and various renditions of it can be found.

I sure hope not scubadyke... That would be a clear act of censorship and not productive or indicative of any writing thread.

Julie

[*Anya*]

This is the femme thread.

Sometimes, topics start out in one place and wind up in another, depending on the thoughts, feelings and insights of those that it speaks to.

Obviously, the original post spoke to many of us and generated a lot of feelings.

I personally have no concerns about where it wound up-writing thread or not.

I would rather not censor anyone. I think everyone has a valid viewpoint-even when I do not agree with them.

I am not a moderator and this is my perspective and my opinion.

[Scuba]

Indeed it is the Poetry Thread. Quotes, Snippets and Other Writing. However, that does not mean there is not room for dialogue and discussion about said writing.

Are you making an attempt to censor the feelings of others, when it comes to the prose/poem that was posted? When in fact, this poem can be searched and various renditions of it can be found.

I sure hope not scubadyke... That would be a clear act of censorship and not productive or indicative of any writing thread.

Julie

Writing inspires us one way or another for sure and censorship is not a good path to start down nor was it my intention to suggest that.

I may not always agree but I will always appreciate.

Scoobs

[starryeyes]

Here is my stereotypical list of what ALL Femmes need to know lol :-D All in fun!

Hugs!



Always get the gel top coat so your nails don't chip after a Manicure. Worth the extra money!

Cheap mascara doesn't always do the trick... Go for the more expensive!

If you are going to wear nothing else, wear eyeliner. You eyes will pop, girl!

The blister Bandaids are a lifesaver for a night out dancing when you are wearing non- dancing shoes.

If you lose a toenail cause you were out dancing all night in non-dancing shoes without the bandaid (tsk tsk) the nail ladies can hook you up with an acrylic and no one will ever know.. :)

Brown and black are opposites on the color wheel...

If you don't have enough time to get your nails done, Press-Ons do the trick and no one will know! ( this was hard for me, but they looked good!!) haha.

Spanx are awesome!

Lace stockings are sexy with anything!

Black heels are also sexy with lace stockings, all the time!! Especially with a little black dress! You betta werk!!

[Dude]

If I was the op
my lesson in this would be to be more careful.
Especially with the >every< word.
This person created a thread when they just meant to post?
Had it been one post in the swoon thread it would not have
gotten this kind of response.

Saying all of the post's in here are a waste of time to read
is probably not something I would have said but this is where AGAIN we all
get to be different.

I dont think people were dissing romantic gestures or thoughts
at all.
This particular (not original) poem? is not every femme's ideal romance and that's ok.

To me, it really is that simple.

[atomiczombie]

Someone out there was meant to be the love of your life... your best friend; your soul mate.
He'll brush the hair out of your eyes, and send you flowers when you least expect it.
He'll stare at you during the movies, even though he paid $30 to see it.
He'll call you to tell you goodnight, or just because he is missing you.
He will call you right back when you hang up on him.
He'll lay with you under the stars listening to your heartbeat... or stay awake all night just to watch you sleep.
He'll kiss your forehead for no reason, and hold your hand in front of your Dad. He'll say you are just as beautiful without makeup on, and show you off to the world when you're in sweats.
He will constantly remind you how lucky he is to have you.
He'll look in your eyes and tell you that you are the most beautiful woman in the world, and for the first time in your life... you'll believe it.
You will know when you find him ---
He will be the one who turns to his friends, and says...
"Thats her..."

When I read this, what comes to mind is, why do I need someone else to treat me that way? How can I be loving, kind and attentive to myself? Why do I need a best friend and soul mate to be happy? How can I be my own best friend and soul mate? How can I feel beautiful just as I am? What makes me not feel that way? Not that I am femme or that I would partner with someone who is masculine lol. But I guess my point here is, why would I need a partner to mirror for me what I can be for myself? Is depending on a partner for that a healthy expectation? I think that partners are wonderful to have if you want to share your life with someone and build a strong bond of love and mutuality. But expecting a partner to mirror for me what really I am not already to myself - i.e., compassionate and accepting, it is unrealistic and won't work. Because if I don't believe I am wonderful and beautiful just as I am, no partner or anyone else will ever really convince me that I am. It has to come from me.

This is not to say that we shouldn't look for love and compassion and acceptance in a partner. Who we choose to have in our lives reflects how we feel about ourselves. I just think it's a myth that we can only be happy and feel loved when we have a partner who loves us. Don't wait for someone to come along and make you happy. Be happy with yourself here and now!

[dixie]

Here is my stereotypical list of what ALL Femmes need to know lol :-D All in fun!

Hugs!



Always get the gel top coat so your nails don't chip after a Manicure. Worth the extra money!

Cheap mascara doesn't always do the trick... Go for the more expensive!

If you are going to wear nothing else, wear eyeliner. You eyes will pop, girl!

The blister Bandaids are a lifesaver for a night out dancing when you are wearing non- dancing shoes.

If you lose a toenail cause you were out dancing all night in non-dancing shoes without the bandaid (tsk tsk) the nail ladies can hook you up with an acrylic and no one will ever know.. :)

Brown and black are opposites on the color wheel...

If you don't have enough time to get your nails done, Press-Ons do the trick and no one will know! ( this was hard for me, but they looked good!!) haha.

Spanx are awesome!

Lace stockings are sexy with anything!

Black heels are also sexy with lace stockings, all the time!! Especially with a little black dress! You betta werk!!

Yup, very stereotypical, so I'm glad you put the "all in fun" disclaimer on there. Although I do kinda wonder what the purpose of this post was, especially being purposely stereotypical in the midst of a conversation in which the general topic has become about how NOT to lump all folks into one of those one-size-fits-all categories.

And yes, this is just my own personal thought upon reading this post.

[starryeyes]

Yup, very stereotypical, so I'm glad you put the "all in fun" disclaimer on there. Although I do kinda wonder what the purpose of this post was, especially being purposely stereotypical in the midst of a conversation in which the general topic has become about how NOT to lump all folks into one of those one-size-fits-all categories.

And yes, this is just my own personal thought upon reading this post.

I dunno... just posting stuff

[girl_dee]

I dunno... just posting stuff
"just in fun" disclaimer isn't really an excuse to be purposely stereotypical. You surely know this by reading most of the posts in this thread.


People of my heritage are often stereotyped into movies and *just in fun* makes fun of us.

They think it's ok because it's "just in fun". It's not funny to us.


The fact that you capitalized the word ALL , added a *lol* then a *just in fun* sounds to me like you knew you were about to piss off a bunch of people.

Nothing on your list applies to this femme, just so you know.

[dixie]

I dunno... just posting stuff

And from this...I can't help but wonder if you had even read any posts in this thread?

[dixie]

"just in fun" disclaimer isn't really an excuse to be purposely stereotypical. You surely know this by reading most of the posts in this thread.


People of my heritage are often stereotyped into movies and *just in fun* makes fun of us.

They think it's ok because it's "just in fun". It's not funny to us.


The fact that you capitalized the word ALL , added a *lol* then a *just in fun* sounds to me like you knew you were about to piss off a bunch of people.

Nothing on your list applies to this femme, just so you know.

I think that's what bothered me as well. That, and the fact that I am not one to be lumped into that "stereotypical" femme category either.

[starryeyes]

And from this...I can't help but wonder if you had even read any posts in this thread?

It was just in fun... can we lighten up? It too scary to post around here **runs away

[pynkkameleon]

As one who is also new to this site, I can easily understand why JistMe felt somewhat attacked. I think that I would have felt that way too. This thread should have been a safe place to share well intended, simple and sweet words.

I do think however that this created a very valuable and worthy discussion (thank you JistME) that should continue elsewhere without the OP's intentions being the center of the discussion. I truly feel as if I have gotten quite a bit out of it and I would like to see it continue.

As someone who is finding her voice and her place on this site, I do have to say that I am a bit disappointed and somewhat intimidated by the very occasional rude comment I see made, not against JistMe, but towards others that are simply sharing their point of view or even just asking for clarification. I'm not talking about the humor, such as JAGG's lovely list of "DO NOT DO'S". I think that throwing in that bit of humor is awesome, appreciated and a necessary means to keep any conversation or debate lively. I'm talking about the personal attacks. Respect and honor each person's opinions and if you so vehemently disagree that you can't be at least kind, step away and go find something else to do. It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.

[Corkey]

Good grief. People are allowed to post their opinion, we don't have to agree with it, but running away is passive aggressive and if you didn't think about what you posted just say so. OY!

[girl_dee]

like causing a 10 car pile up and keep going.

[Corkey]

As one who is also new to this site, I can easily understand why JistMe felt somewhat attacked. I think that I would have felt that way too. This thread should have been a safe place to share well intended, simple and sweet words.

I do think however that this created a very valuable and worthy discussion (thank you JistME) that should continue elsewhere without the OP's intentions being the center of the discussion. I truly feel as if I have gotten quite a bit out of it and I would like to see it continue.

As someone who is finding her voice and her place on this site, I do have to say that I am a bit disappointed and somewhat intimidated by the very occasional rude comment I see made, not against JistMe, but towards others that are simply sharing their point of view or even just asking for clarification. I'm not talking about the humor, such as JAGG's lovely list of "DO NOT DO'S". I think that throwing in that bit of humor is awesome, appreciated and a necessary means to keep any conversation or debate lively. I'm talking about the personal attacks. Respect and honor each person's opinions and if you so vehemently disagree that you can't be at least kind, step away and go find something else to do. It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.

People don't respond well to finger wagging when they are pointing out ism's. Happens all the time. Every poster has followed the TOS, or we would have heard about it.

[dixie]

It was just in fun... can we lighten up? It too scary to post around here **runs away

Seriously? If someone attempting to start a calm dialogue with you in hopes of understanding the meaning of a slightly confusing statement you make is "too scary" then I would like to live in that bubble as well, because your reality seems to be much different than mine.

And I am also sorry, but I am the kind of femme who would literally go insane if the most important worry in my life was the "right" hair, makeup, and nails. Therefore, it's not very "fun" for me to be stereotyped in jest.

[Tawse]

I think we should be careful about the your filters versus my filters and who has responsibility issue.

And I say that for one reason.


All the sexual harassment classes I've ever gone to.


The guy says sweetheart. He means nothing by it. But if the woman interprets it as harassment - then it is. If she's ok with it - then it's not.

It has nothing to do with his intention, and 100% with the way it is received.

And that is a very polarized example - and yes it could be argued rather easily that it's wrong and completely different.

So I'll pull up another point - dealing with difficult people in the work place. If someone has a problem with you and you're pulled to DEO - you better not say "it's his/her fault because of their filters, I didn't intend..." or "this is just the way I am, if he/she doesn't like it they are the problem..." It won't get you anywhere and may even see you lose your job.

Now we're in a casual laid back atmosphere here - but I have to say, maybe due to corporate / legal brainwashing, that anytime someone says 'it's your fault if you hear me wrong' - it makes me want to grab my documentation and get ready to head to a mediator.

Just a thought...


edited to add: oh shit I just realized this long thread is because of the way something was received instead of intended.

kinda makes you go hmmmm

[starryeyes]

Seriously? If someone attempting to start a calm dialogue with you in hopes of understanding the meaning of a slightly confusing statement you make is "too scary" then I would like to live in that bubble as well, because your reality seems to be much different than mine.

And I am also sorry, but I am the kind of femme who would literally go insane if the most important worry in my life was the "right" hair, makeup, and nails. Therefore, it's not very "fun" for me to be stereotyped in jest.



This was not about you in any way shape or form. I don't even know you.

And your comment "And I am also sorry, but I am the kind of femme who would literally go insane if the most important worry in my life was the "right" hair, makeup, and nails"... where was this insinuated?

I am a Girly Femme to the T, but it is not the most important worry in my life... I guess you have some stereotypes yourself coming out. Maybe you need to look at that.

Have a nice day

[girl_dee]

i sometimes feel that the world has been stereotypical for so long, and especially in the name of comedy that people are shocked when someone says. "hey, that's not ok"

[Corkey]

My Femme is not obsessed with her hair or nails or looks or lipstick.
She is a capable warm intelligent funny talented wonderful human being.
She is awesome and I am a lucky guy to be married to her.

[starryeyes]

My Femme is not obsessed with her hair or nails or looks or lipstick.
She is a capable warm intelligent funny talented wonderful human being.
She is awesome and I am a lucky guy to be married to her.

That's awesome! I AM into my looks, clothes, make-up, hair, nails. whatever. But, I also am a warm, caring person, I am very successful in my career, I am a awesome friend, and know the people who have come and gone in my life have appreciated me and felt lucky also to be with me, and I was with them. Hair and Makeup do not dictate that. It also does not make you any less than other people.

Other people have posted funny little things in here... and I was doing the same.. and YES what I posted is important to me! Please don't take that away or make it about yourself. It is mine, and I love it.

Thank you :-)

[Corkey]

That's awesome! I AM into my looks, clothes, make-up, hair, nails. whatever. But, I also am a warm, caring person, I am very successful in my career, I am a awesome friend, and know the people who have come and gone in my life have appreciated me and felt lucky also to be with me, and I was with them. Hair and Makeup do not dictate that. It also does not make you any less than other people.

Other people have posted funny little things in here... and I was doing the same.. and YES what I posted is important to me! Please don't take that away or make it about yourself. It is mine, and I love it.

Thank you :-)

Now see this is an "I" post. Voila'.
Your welcome.

[girl_dee]

That's awesome! I AM into my looks, clothes, make-up, hair, nails. whatever. But, I also am a warm, caring person, I am very successful in my career, I am a awesome friend, and know the people who have come and gone in my life have appreciated me and felt lucky also to be with me, and I was with them. Hair and Makeup do not dictate that. It also does not make you any less than other people.

Other people have posted funny little things in here... and I was doing the same.. and YES what I posted is important to me! Please don't take that away or make it about yourself. It is mine, and I love it.

Thank you :-)

And what a wonderful list this is! i feel it's fabulous that all of us femmes are different and unique, what a boring world we would live in if we were all the same.

You directed your list to ALL Femmes and maybe would have been better if you posted from you *me* place. :)

[Dude]

No and by no means do I want a job like that...but I do like this thread.

I am not saying we shouldn't call out "isms" I just think another thread can be started to address that directly. We have a whole site for that. Why not use it. :)

All opinions are of value in my eyes. I have nothing against anyone here and I'm not here to argue. I would just like to see this area maintain it's purpose which is writing and poetry.

Cheers,

Scoobs

So you know ,I meant absolutely nothing ugly towards you.
I could have chosen friendlier words . I own that and apologize.
Things happen where they happen is what I have noticed.
Ever start a thread about one thing and it turns into twenty other
topics? I have.

[starryeyes]

And what a wonderful list this is! i feel it's fabulous that all of us femmes are different and unique, what a boring world we would live in if we were all the same.

You directed your list to ALL Femmes and maybe would have been better if you posted from you *me* place. :)

I was following the title of the thread.... sorry for the confusion.

[Tawse]

So you know ,I meant absolutely nothing ugly towards you.
I could have chosen friendlier words . I own that and apologize.
Things happen where they happen is what I have noticed.
Ever start a thread about one thing and it turns into twenty other
topics? I have.


I have to think hard to think of discussion threads that DON'T take a long and winding road - usually consisting of several 90 to 180 degree turns.

It's kinda what I find cool about the internet - it's like real conversation.

If I sit down with friends - we may start talking about something serious and pressing - then someone will have an ADD moment and we'll be off in that direction - then someone else will remember something about their trip to the grocery store and you just continue like that - playing off of each other.



So - what about softball?

[Dude]

So - what about softball?

I was a pitcher
aint played in years
hate to run
how bout you?

[starryeyes]

Now see this is an "I" post. Voila'.
Your welcome.

well, it was MY post... so of course there is an I.

[Tawse]

I was a pitcher
aint played in years
hate to run
how bout you?

First base / outfield but have skipped a couple of seasons due to nerve issues. Apparently if you can't feel part of you hand - it effects both offense and defense lol and I can't play if I'm mediocre. Can't do it.


Soooooooooooo


before my career ended I did manage to turn an unassisted double play :) that was on the "bucket list" and I got to strike it off.

And I'm very happy that ESPN shows a fair amount of college ball.. and I'm VERY Happy that the big players are still valued players in the sport.

Yay for power sluggers!!!

[Corkey]

well, it was MY post... so of course there is an I.

Yes instead of an ALL, yey!

[Corkey]

First base / outfield but have skipped a couple of seasons due to nerve issues. Apparently if you can't feel part of you hand - it effects both offense and defense lol and I can't play if I'm mediocre. Can't do it.


Soooooooooooo


before my career ended I did manage to turn an unassisted double play :) that was on the "bucket list" and I got to strike it off.

And I'm very happy that ESPN shows a fair amount of college ball.. and I'm VERY Happy that the big players are still valued players in the sport.

Yay for power sluggers!!!

Squirrel, derail LOL

[grenade]

"just in fun" disclaimer isn't really an excuse to be purposely stereotypical. You surely know this by reading most of the posts in this thread.


People of my heritage are often stereotyped into movies and *just in fun* makes fun of us.

They think it's ok because it's "just in fun". It's not funny to us.


The fact that you capitalized the word ALL , added a *lol* then a *just in fun* sounds to me like you knew you were about to piss off a bunch of people.

Nothing on your list applies to this femme, just so you know.

Everything in her list applies to me, just so you all know. I've decided to follow suit and talk about myself and because I'm certain you all care.

Right? You know you do!

[dixie]

This was not about you in any way shape or form. I don't even know you.

And your comment "And I am also sorry, but I am the kind of femme who would literally go insane if the most important worry in my life was the "right" hair, makeup, and nails"... where was this insinuated?

I am a Girly Femme to the T, but it is not the most important worry in my life... I guess you have some stereotypes yourself coming out. Maybe you need to look at that.

Have a nice day

I'm fully aware that it was not about me. That was the entire point of speaking from *my* space, in trying to clarify your ALL comment. That is where the perceived insinuation occurred, just as the case with the original OP. There were no stereotypes involved on my part, nor anything that I need to look at. I was communicating *my* thoughts. Not attempting to lump you or anyone else into a category. Unfortunately, I am not always the most eloquent communicator, especially when I'm trying to understand my own thought process...lol Like you said, I don't know you. It was nothing against *you* as a person. As a matter of fact, I've enjoyed reading some of your posts around the board in the past, and thought you seemed like a genuine and interesting individual. I apparently come off a lot more harsh and personal than I intend sometimes.

That's awesome! I AM into my looks, clothes, make-up, hair, nails. whatever. But, I also am a warm, caring person, I am very successful in my career, I am a awesome friend, and know the people who have come and gone in my life have appreciated me and felt lucky also to be with me, and I was with them. Hair and Makeup do not dictate that. It also does not make you any less than other people.

Other people have posted funny little things in here... and I was doing the same.. and YES what I posted is important to me! Please don't take that away or make it about yourself. It is mine, and I love it.

Thank you :-)


And what a wonderful list this is! i feel it's fabulous that all of us femmes are different and unique, what a boring world we would live in if we were all the same.

You directed your list to ALL Femmes and maybe would have been better if you posted from you *me* place. :)

Yes! The *me*'s and *I*'s spaces, rather than the general inclusion. These are what I was trying to get at, but in such an obviously confusing and roundabout way. (Like I said, sucky at thought processes sometimes.)

[girl_dee]

Everything in her list applies to me, just so you all know. I've decided to follow suit and talk about myself and because I'm certain you all care.

Right? You know you do!

i DO! i actually love the diversity and want to hear more!!


i love to weed eat the yard wearing my glittery sneakers....

[dixie]

I have to think hard to think of discussion threads that DON'T take a long and winding road - usually consisting of several 90 to 180 degree turns.

It's kinda what I find cool about the internet - it's like real conversation.

If I sit down with friends - we may start talking about something serious and pressing - then someone will have an ADD moment and we'll be off in that direction - then someone else will remember something about their trip to the grocery store and you just continue like that - playing off of each other.



So - what about softball?

<---basketball team. Would have preferred softball, but attempted to follow mom's "legacy".

[Tawse]

<---basketball team. Would have preferred softball, but attempted to follow mom's "legacy".


uh oh... your nick is dixielady... and you like basketball..


*cringes in anticipation


Are you a Volunteer?

O.o


Signed,

Bulldawg fanatic

[dixie]

uh oh... your nick is dixielady... and you like basketball..


*cringes in anticipation


Are you a Volunteer?

O.o


Signed,

Bulldawg fanatic

No, despite only being about a half hour away I just wasn't into the orange and white. I bleed Tarheel blue.

[Novelafemme]

I don't particularly care for long, manicured nails...but I MUST have my toenails painted and I have been known to do yard work without a top on.

I'm not big on softball talk but if someone wants to discuss periods or other bodily functions I AM SO THERE!!

[Tawse]

(blah blah blah)... and I have been known to do yard work without a top on. (blah blah blah blah)

I'm sorry - I missed it when you gave your address.. could you repeat it?

[Corkey]

Oh one more thing then I'm done. A girly girl can wear overalls, have no nails, spit and shoot. Jus sayin. My girly girl doesn't do these things but she doesn't like boxes to begin with.

[Melissa]

You are so right Snow...
And in part, this is what being FEMME is about.
We call out the bullshit and we take care of our Femme Sisters.
We make sure they are not swindled or taken advantage of.

And sometimes... We have to blow up the fairy tale, just to keep them safe.

Julie who is so proud and honored to call you Sister.


Jullie - I love love love this line "And sometimes... We have to blow up the fairy tale, just to keep them safe."

[JistMe]

"It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.
__________________
~Vonni~"

No worries Vonni. If posting requires that I sit for three hours making sure the semantics are correct, I'll gladly miss out.

[Corkey]

"It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.
__________________
~Vonni~"

No worries Vonni. If posting requires that I sit for three hours making sure the semantics are correct, I'll gladly miss out.

So you in other words learned nothing.

[macele]

tawse, that looks like a UT orange colored mustang in your profile pic ... no? LOL

just joking with you lol.

i need to know what every femme should know, ... for the sake of the mercy rule. and for mercy's sake!

(i know what you are thinking. she's from mississippi and that means something lol.)

[julieisafemme]

Hi Vonni. Welcome to the site. I wanted to address some of the things you are talking about here. I know it is hard to jump in and start posting. One thing you mention is diversity. You are right that there is a lot of diversity here and it is part of what makes it so fun to read and post! I learn things all the time here.

On the dash site someone started a fun thread about OCD. At least that is what they though they were doing. I have OCD and so of course I was interested and went in to read it. It was actually not about OCD. It was about joking about being extra clean or particular about certain things. I wasn't offended but did want to post that for some people these quirks were'nt funny and actually were debilitating, scary and difficult to deal with. The OP pretty much called me a buzzkill. I was bumming people out. They suggested I go read something else or stay out of the thread.

I wasn't trying to cause problems or make a fuss. I wanted to suggest that maybe the thread not be called OCD but something else. I wanted to let people know that it might not be funny to everyone.

I am telling this story to illustrate that posting things and having others disagree or challenge what you are saying is the diversity that makes this site and others like it so great. Sometimes people may not be nice about it. One person's "nice" might be someone else's mean. I think it is ok to address someone and let them know that you are uncomfortable with what they have said or even how they have said it. That seems to be how things work on forums.

As far as the OP and this thread it seems like people have posted how they feel as femmes and are showing the diversity here.

As one who is also new to this site, I can easily understand why JistMe felt somewhat attacked. I think that I would have felt that way too. This thread should have been a safe place to share well intended, simple and sweet words.

I do think however that this created a very valuable and worthy discussion (thank you JistME) that should continue elsewhere without the OP's intentions being the center of the discussion. I truly feel as if I have gotten quite a bit out of it and I would like to see it continue.

As someone who is finding her voice and her place on this site, I do have to say that I am a bit disappointed and somewhat intimidated by the very occasional rude comment I see made, not against JistMe, but towards others that are simply sharing their point of view or even just asking for clarification. I'm not talking about the humor, such as JAGG's lovely list of "DO NOT DO'S". I think that throwing in that bit of humor is awesome, appreciated and a necessary means to keep any conversation or debate lively. I'm talking about the personal attacks. Respect and honor each person's opinions and if you so vehemently disagree that you can't be at least kind, step away and go find something else to do. It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.

[BullDog]

I never saw the OP's intentions ever being the center of discussion in this thread.

I also think who is considered rude is going to vary depending on whose perception it is.

[GinaSofia]

"It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.
__________________
~Vonni~"

No worries Vonni. If posting requires that I sit for three hours making sure the semantics are correct, I'll gladly miss out.

Me too. It's tiresome,inhibiting, & boring.
I'll reserve my life's lessons for real life experiences instead of getting schooled online by wannabe cyber life coaches.

[apretty]

I miss the days where being specific about context and meaning and fucking language was something of value and not me being a big meaniehead.

[Novelafemme]

Me too. It's tiresome,inhibiting, & boring.
I'll reserve my life's lessons for real life experiences instead of getting schooled online by wannabe cyber life coaches.

booooooo :(

[Corkey]

Me too. It's tiresome,inhibiting, & boring.
I'll reserve my life's lessons for real life experiences instead of getting schooled online by wannabe cyber life coaches.

Not here to school anyone, but your rudeness is duly noted.

[1QuirkyKiwi]

http://www.electricsquirrel.com/images/pony_squirrel.jpg


--June

Ugh! That photo of me isn’t one of my best! My hair needed combing and wasn’t my mane attraction and my behind was a little too fluffy that day! LOL!

Orange and blues are good; All Black is great, but…..Silver, now silver is where it’s AT! Ooooooh! The eye-candy on the New Zealand Women’s Rugby team…..a Femme cannot help but perv, admire salaciously, lol!

[Tawse]

tawse, that looks like a UT orange colored mustang in your profile pic ... no? LOL


YES It is! and you want to hear what's worse? My interior dash lights are soft blue.

Believe we when I say I STRUGGLE with this.. lol at least once a month. If ONLY Tennessee WAS NOT Tennessee - I could obsess freely.. but as is I make sure I put a LOT of magnets on the Stang when we go to the UGA vs UT games. And even then I'm nervous...


lol

signed,

Torn between the love of a color and the hate of a rival

[Daktari]

YES It is! and you want to hear what's worse? My interior dash lights are soft blue.

Believe we when I say I STRUGGLE with this.. lol at least once a month. If ONLY Tennessee WAS NOT Tennessee - I could obsess freely.. but as is I make sure I put a LOT of magnets on the Stang when we go to the UGA vs UT games. And even then I'm nervous...


lol

signed,

Torn between the love of a color and the hate of a rival

http://shop.blackpoolfc.co.uk/catalogue/replica-kit-home-kit/adult-home-shirt

Go the Seasiders!!

[*Anya*]

Is this still the "what every femme should know thread"?

Cars, interior blue lights Tawse & Incubus? You know I love both of you ( in a sister sort of way) but really guys!

:|

[Tawse]

http://shop.blackpoolfc.co.uk/catalogue/replica-kit-home-kit/adult-home-shirt

Go the Seasiders!!


LOL On my Pinterest page - I have a bunch of Grabber Orange Cars!! :D lol


And Anya - MUAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHA welcome to the long and meandering path.. and be honest. EVERY femme wants to hear about cars and sports. It's common knowledge ;)

[DapperButch]

LOL On my Pinterest page - I have a bunch of Grabber Orange Cars!! :D lol


And Anya - MUAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHA welcome to the long and meandering path.. and be honest. EVERY femme wants to hear about cars and sports. It's common knowledge ;)

How about posting your car in the car gallery? I'd love to see a larger picture.

[DapperButch]

Is this still the "what every femme should know thread"?

Cars, interior blue lights Tawse & Incubus? You know I love both of you ( in a sister sort of way) but really guys!

:|

Hey, Anya. I think because this is actually in the Quotes, Snippets, and Other Writing and was actually only meant to be brief quote from the OP and not a discussion on "what every femme should know", people are feeling free to just blab. Meaning, since the thread already moved away from its original purpose (which was not a discussion thread), it is undefined :)

[*Anya*]

Hey, Anya. I think because this is actually in the Quotes, Snippets, and Other Writing and was actually only meant to be brief quote from the OP and not a discussion on "what every femme should know", people are feeling free to just blab. Meaning, since the thread already moved away from its original purpose (which was not a discussion thread), it is undefined :)

Good try Dapper.

[Daktari]

<<<Doesn't even drive

:bicycle:

What every femme should know.

Humour the chaps once in a while :groucho:



:p

[Gemme]

What every femme should know- truck drivers in semi's can see everything you are doing in your car, we can read the gum wrapper on the floorboard behind your seat. We can see everything. Everything! And yes when you pass by they ARE looking and you can bet you're being talked about on the CB. Thought you should know that.

Sometimes, that's the whole point.

This coming from someone who's been in the car as well as the cab.

:cheesy:

Now that's creepy!

Crap.

You all fussed so long and so much that the page that this was referencing is too far back for me to figure out what in the Hell I was addressing for Quirky.

I'll have to check it again and come back to finish my thought.

As one who is also new to this site, I can easily understand why JistMe felt somewhat attacked. I think that I would have felt that way too. This thread should have been a safe place to share well intended, simple and sweet words.

I do think however that this created a very valuable and worthy discussion (thank you JistME) that should continue elsewhere without the OP's intentions being the center of the discussion. I truly feel as if I have gotten quite a bit out of it and I would like to see it continue.

As someone who is finding her voice and her place on this site, I do have to say that I am a bit disappointed and somewhat intimidated by the very occasional rude comment I see made, not against JistMe, but towards others that are simply sharing their point of view or even just asking for clarification. I'm not talking about the humor, such as JAGG's lovely list of "DO NOT DO'S". I think that throwing in that bit of humor is awesome, appreciated and a necessary means to keep any conversation or debate lively. I'm talking about the personal attacks. Respect and honor each person's opinions and if you so vehemently disagree that you can't be at least kind, step away and go find something else to do. It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.

Hi, Vonni!

Posting in emotionally charged threads CAN be daunting for those who are new to this particular group of people. It would be so easy if everyone who ever got upset would put their big boy/girl shorts/panties/etc on and either walked away or dealt with things in an 'adult' manner. Some of the time, we do. Sometimes, we don't. We're all human and all of us have different spheres of reference from which to draw.

So, don't lose faith or think poorly of us. We get it right more days than we get it wrong.

I think we should be careful about the your filters versus my filters and who has responsibility issue.

And I say that for one reason.


All the sexual harassment classes I've ever gone to.


The guy says sweetheart. He means nothing by it. But if the woman interprets it as harassment - then it is. If she's ok with it - then it's not.

It has nothing to do with his intention, and 100% with the way it is received.

And that is a very polarized example - and yes it could be argued rather easily that it's wrong and completely different.

So I'll pull up another point - dealing with difficult people in the work place. If someone has a problem with you and you're pulled to DEO - you better not say "it's his/her fault because of their filters, I didn't intend..." or "this is just the way I am, if he/she doesn't like it they are the problem..." It won't get you anywhere and may even see you lose your job.

Now we're in a casual laid back atmosphere here - but I have to say, maybe due to corporate / legal brainwashing, that anytime someone says 'it's your fault if you hear me wrong' - it makes me want to grab my documentation and get ready to head to a mediator.

Just a thought...


edited to add: oh shit I just realized this long thread is because of the way something was received instead of intended.

kinda makes you go hmmmm

Exactly. Perception is key.

Ebon and I can be the biggest, most hateful, sexist asses to one another but it's okay. Because it's coming from us and we know us. Many a time, we've made our friends cringe from the things we say to one another.

I was following the title of the thread.... sorry for the confusion.

I'm going to let you in a secret that I've learned a few years ago. Never do I post without reading not only the first couple of posts, to see what the intention of the thread is, but I then jump to the last page and read the last few posts to see what the thread has actually turned into.

It just seems to me that you saw the heading and posted. It's not the end of the world!

For the record, I used to love gels and like the handpainting of the gel coating. I like manicures. I love having my toes done too and they are almost NEVER the same color as my fingers. Because I can.

Also for the record, I do maintenance on my golf carts at work as well as climbing ladders and taking down and installing 8-9 foot lighting bulbs. I don't do it because it's fun and I am quite afraid of, not so much the height, but the hard landing should I fall. But I do it. Because I can.

Also also for the record, I feel most comfy in jeans and a shirt that makes my breasts look bigger. I wasn't blessed with an ample bosom, so I'm making lemonade out of this batch of lemons I have (extra weight). It just so happens that the best clothing for this is maternity clothing. My current favorite pair of jeans are maternity and they hug my hips in a delicous manner. Because I can.

Also also also for the record, I am the epitome of Gemini, but I am often clumsy and/or careless with my words. But I think that everyone can understand when I say that I am femme. Not the 'every' kind of femme, but the 'only' kind of femme I can be. I like and do the things that I do, sometimes because I am femme and sometimes because I am me. I can do things that aren't 'femme' and I'm still 'me' while doing them but find no joy in doing things just to 'be' femme if it's not 'me'. I enjoy things that 'some' femmes enjoy but not 'all' femmes. Not 'all' femmes enjoy the things that 'I' enjoy.

Quantified expressions are hard to handle sometimes. It's good for us all to have a reminder that we ALL speak from our 'me, myself, I' place. Things get hinky when folks start talking from the viewpoint of others. That's not good.

I love that we can have multiple discussions and multiple viewpoints going on within the same thread at the same time. It's makes my Gemini multi-tasking heart beat a little faster.

However, I thought that the dialogue between Kobi and Julie went really well. It felt like a real time discussion in which they hashed things out and really LISTENED to one another. Is it really so bad to wish that that happened more often?

[Gemme]

Now that's creepy!

Found it!

Three flippin' pages back.

Eh, it's not so bad. Many girls and guys know that and will do things to get the truck driver's attention.

I like truck drivers. I feel safer sandwiched between two semis than I do two pick up trucks or two cars. In my experience, most of them are good guys and gals just making a living like the rest of us. They just do it several feet higher than the rest of us. :)

[1QuirkyKiwi]

Found it!

Three flippin' pages back.

Eh, it's not so bad. Many girls and guys know that and will do things to get the truck driver's attention.

I like truck drivers. I feel safer sandwiched between two semis than I do two pick up trucks or two cars. In my experience, most of them are good guys and gals just making a living like the rest of us. They just do it several feet higher than the rest of us. :)

I agree there are some that seek the attention; I'm not one of them...

I'm very nervous near Trucks; Not long after I qualified as an Emblamer my car was literally sandwiched between two lorries on the motorway. Traffic had stopped due to an accident and the lorry behind didn't stop in time and hit me, pushing my car into the back of the lorry in front.

I had hazardous chemicals in my car boot that were leaking badly. The lorry driver who hit me was over the limit!

Unfortunately, not everyone has good experiences.....I'd prefer the truck driver's eyes be on the road than checking out me and what's in my car.

[Tawse]

Also also also for the record, I am the epitome of Gemini, but I am often clumsy and/or careless with my words. But I think that everyone can understand when I say that I am femme. Not the 'every' kind of femme, but the 'only' kind of femme I can be. I like and do the things that I do, sometimes because I am femme and sometimes because I am me. I can do things that aren't 'femme' and I'm still 'me' while doing them but find no joy in doing things just to 'be' femme if it's not 'me'. I enjoy things that 'some' femmes enjoy but not 'all' femmes. Not 'all' femmes enjoy the things that 'I' enjoy.

I simultaneously want to cheer and grab a protractor after reading this...

:bowdown: :seeingstars:

[DapperButch]

Good try Dapper.

???? I'm confused by your response.

People aren't "staying on topic" (so to speak) because the purpose of the thread was not stated in the opening post. The opening post was just a quote. The section this thread is in is the "Art, Poetry, and Writing" section. That is all I was saying. What did you think I was saying here?

[yotlyolqualli]

Wow!

Several people have encouraged me to post my writings here.

I don't think I will.

I write what I feel, how I feel it, when I feel it and why I feel it.

When I write, I don't write for everyone, and my writing will not please everyone, nor will it "fit" everyone.

I wrote a poem about myself entitled "Lissa's song"

It is a very personal, very self promoting song (in so much as it speaks to the content of my soul)

No way in HELL would I feel comfortable posting something here, in the POETRY, WRITING... section, knowing that

A) someone may be offended because I say "I bask in the rays of the sun and dance in the light of her sister, moon"... because obviously, the sun isn't female or male, and neither is the moon.

B) someone would think nothing of taking that "offense" and decimating something as personal as MY own feelings about how I feel. No thanks.

C) if poetry, stories, how people feel about themselves and about someone or "generic" all, can and will be decisively polarizing, why bother?

Can we not see poetry as someone's inner beauty shining through?

Are we so "frightened" of the "male" dominated world that we take offense at someone's feelings that may or may not reflect poorly or richly on themselves or someone else?

Confusing? Yep! Thats the way I felt when I read this thread, confused as HELL!


The dialogue between Kobi and Julie helped, but speaking as someone who often puts my feelings "out there" I could definitely feel WHY the OP felt attacked. Was that the intent? For some, obviously not. For other's... well lets just say that I felt like there were some who wanted to cause chaos, hard feelings, and some who just wanted to stand on a soap box and beat their own chest.

Do we not get enough of that from the "outside" world? Should we not all stand together as a COMMUNITY of beautifully diverse people, regardless of IDs and isms?

Ever heard the phrase, you get more bee's with honey?

"Hey, dude, Jist, please correct your "what EVERY femme should know" title, it may be offensive to some.

OR.. PEOPLE, this is a POETRY, WRITING post.

How about, ASKING the OP what he meant by "EVERY" femme, instead of INSTANTLY believing that he obviously MEANT every femme and so he MUST be SEXIST or what the fuck ever that M word is!

There are so many blasted labels here, that I am tempted to start mentally slapping labels on everyone I meet.

People say that "Jist" or anyone else who takes offense at words, should put their big girl panties on.

Guess what? Quit trying to dress other people while you're standing there NEKKID!

Had YOU put your big girl panties on and ASKED simple questions instead of getting ALL OFFENDED at what was a SWEET POEM, maybe this would have been a much nicer read!

You don't have to be a simpering idiot to meet and keep a good butch


It's patronizing, pandering and least of all, heteronormative--Which is all great if I consent and but none of us did.

The title could have read, 'Here's where I degrade and patronize Femme and perpetuate female-feeble mindedness' and that's cool, I wouldn't have reason to read that thread.

I hope that helps your confusion.

Don't ever speak for me. Ever! I didn't find this POEM any of those things and I can assure you that I am NOT some "female-feeble minded" woman! I didn't feel degraded, I didn't feel patronized and I sure as hell didn't feel that this was in any way "heteronormative". What the hell kind of word is that anyway? Am I "heteronormative" because I want to be married, I want to be a "submissive" wife to a butch woman who can lead the household because that is what I believe to be right for me?? Then I guess along with "femme, lesbian, and homosexual and gay, add THAT label to my lapel as well. No label and no one's thoughts or idea's threaten me nor how I identify, not only on an online forum, but in my life.

In my life I have been degraded (by a woman) I have been raped (by a woman) I have been marginilized (by a woman) and I have been patronized (by a woman). Does that mean all women SUCK? Nope. But by the theory or thought process here, I SHOULD think all women suck, because thus far, that is all I have found. No, instead I realize that women, like any other faction of society, differs, sometimes hugely, and while ALL X chromosonal people are biologically "female" not all of them are bitches, psychotic, sexist, patronizing, degrading, raping people.

Interesting how one comes about understanding that, isn't it?

I will put here, these are MY thoughts, opinions and whatnot. And I LIKED the OP's original post and just because I LIKED it, doesnt mean that I am weak, or that I am a simpering fool, or that I need to be validated by someone else nor does it mean that I am so cowed by the "heteronomrmative" standards that I can't see the forest for the tree's. it means that in that POEM, I saw beauty, I saw love, I saw affection and while it may be idealistic, maybe even overly mushy, I saw someone putting their heart on their sleeve. That's more than most ever say or do.

Whose woods these are, I think I know, his house is in the village though, he will not see me stopping here to watch his woods fill up with snow. My little horse must think it queer..... "Robert Frost"

Discect/analyze/criticize that. He said "queer" he must be homophobic! (SARCASM ALERT!)

Put personal thoughts, idea's and emotions on here to be analyzed, dissected, made fun of, made light of or even looked down on?


No thanks.

[blush]

Usually when someone says "every," it doesn't require a lot of interpretation.

"Heteronormative" is acting in a way that is stereotypical of heterosexual couples.

The op's quote is attributed to Nicholas Sparks, a bastion of heterosexual luv.:praying:

Part of femme invisibility is the constant assumption that we act (or are) just like straight women. Some of us relish that role because it fits who we are. Some of us don't. Many of us get cranky when we are yet again expected to fall in line with a quote usurped from the straight community and "applied" to us.

I, personally, have a problem with not giving credit to the author of the quote, but I'm persnickety.

As far as posting your own stuff, you might check out other writing threads and see the comments. It's hard to put your stuff out there. Good luck!

[LadyRieinAL]

No one can read my mind - no more thinking that just because someone doesn't do what I think, they should do it anyway because if they love me they would know what it is that I need them to do, without me telling them what it is that I need.

This femme should know I am my own best friend and I should never think anyone's opinion of how I look, dress, or feel is more important than my own.

I This femme knows it is not the responsibilty of anyone else to make me happy - and it is so wonderful to have a partner who supports me being the happiest, healthiest me I can be and thinks I'm damn cute doing it.

This femme knows she can completely give herself to another and she will always have the right to change her mind. She loves getting lost in another, but there is always a trail of bread crumbs so she can always come back home to self.