Butches and Body Image - Let's Talk About It

[AlexHunter]

The media puts so much pressure on women to look a certain way: to be rail thin, but not with a flat chest; to always be perfectly put together; to have completely symmetrical facial features; to conform to society's idea of femininity; and the list continues.

I have been with plenty of femmes who struggled with body image issues...

But what about the butches?

I decided to start this thread because I've observed body image issues are a largely taboo subject among the butches I've known. So many people associate self consciousness and eating disordered behavior with those who are much more feminine.

I starved myself in middle school when I noticed I was growing breasts. I wanted to be less of a girl and consequently more of a guy. I binge ate in high school and experimented with steroids so I would gain weight and, again, appear to be more of a guy. I tried to alter my body composition to an unhealthy state.

Apart from wanting to appear more male in general (I am genderqueer/transgendered/largely male ID'd), I've felt pressure to be "man enough"/"butch enough" for any femme I liked. I like to be physically strong for myself, but I also want to make sure I am strong enough to impress the femmes.

I want to look good. I want to be appealing. My fear of shallow women has definitely driven me to work a little harder, too.

It's not the toughest, most butch-like act to admit to this sort of thing, but I know I am not the only one of our kind to have gone through this struggle.

What pressure or expectations have you felt from society or yourself with regards to your body, being a butch?

Do these expectations still plague you? How do you handle them?

Let's share our stories.

[Toughy]

It's not the toughest, most butch-like act to admit to this sort of thing, but I know I am not the only one of our kind to have gone through this struggle.

remember this: Every single thing you do/act/look is butch, no matter what it is. That is true because you are butch and if you are doing it....then it's a butch thing.

In my experience what femmes want from us is that we be real....to be who we are without shame or guilt. Muscle strength is way down on the list. Having a generous heart and acting from that heart are way up on the list.

[Scuba]

Good topic and one that I really want to respond to but need to be a bit more together in thought than I am at this moment.

Be back later :)

[PaPa]

I agree 100% with Toughy.

For me, butch is who I am at the core of my being. I am not trying to fulfill stereotypes or impress anyone with that identity. The women I have encountered were seeking a butch who knew how to treat women right and were not looking at superficial aspects (mannerisms or physique).

I live by the adage I am who I am. Of course each day I strive to be the best that I can be, but the basis is still the same. Take me as I am or not. Others opinions of me do not alter who I am. I do not need validation for that role.

That is just my view on this topic.

[AlexHunter]

remember this: Every single thing you do/act/look is butch, no matter what it is. That is true because you are butch and if you are doing it....then it's a butch thing.

In my experience what femmes want from us is that we be real....to be who we are without shame or guilt. Muscle strength is way down on the list. Having a generous heart and acting from that heart are way up on the list.

Well, I agree...

However, I have personally encountered some rather superficial femmes who had quite a list of demands they wanted a butch to meet, ie the attitude of: "I'm hot shit and you better be hot shit, too! You have to be everything I want or I can go find someone who is -- because, once again, I'm hot shit!" I do realize people evolve with time and that the superficial ones I came across when I was, say, 20, have probably grown up quite a bit.

I know I project a tough guy sort of image without necessarily intending to do it. I do occasionally fear disappointing people when they find out I'm not completely the tough guy they thought I was, though I acknowledge that is an assumption they chose to have. Humans are not one dimensional.

[kannon]

Hey good thread. I hope to post when I have more time. I look forward to reading the post.

[musicman]

If a femme came to me and voiced that she is all that and a bag of chips and pepsi is what the hell you talking about, fuck off.

Once I settled down, my thoughts are this, you can never be good enough, you can never please someone like that. You're going to spend all your time trying to be what she wants you to be.In the end when you fail to meet her standards she is going to walk away and try and find someone that can.

It's my experience when a potential partner (either Butch or femme) yes there are butches out there that think they are all that and more as well. Think they can find anyone at a drop of a hat isn't going to take the time to work out issues in a relationship. I think we all know that it takes some work to keep a relationship going. There has to be some give and take, some understanding that we are not perfect and a work in progress.

There is nothing wrong with having self confidence in who or what you are. You just need to know we all are a work in progress.

In my opinion, when someone thinks they are hot shit,think they have lines of people lined up to bed them wake up one morning, looks in the mirror and realizes their still single.

[TimilDeeps]

There was a time when I was concerned with how my "butchness" was perceived by others (albeit that time was over twenty years ago) I've learned a lot since then.

When one decides that they will no longer conform to the societal expectations of how they are to act, dress, perform, eat, sleep, or fuck–then one becomes who they truly are.

So, I say to you, Alex; live up to your own expectations. Strive to meet your own standards and once you have, set the bar higher.

[girl_dee]

just a thought from this femme girl


if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.


just my humble .02

[boobookitty]

If a femme came to me and voiced that she is all that and a bag of chips and pepsi...


LOL... My instant reaction to the idea of a femme saying such to me ... was "Yes, baby what can I do for you?" --I can play that game--

but seriously, I understand what you meant musicman.

I face the stereotype of 'what is Butch' almost every day.
I don't...(I hit an emotionalblock on this train of thought) so I'll rephrase it...
if I see a reflection of myself looking male... as I percive myself... it almost instantly triggers a reaction of "you don't measure up" ... I feel some shame that I don't have the upper body strength.. That I think I should have...

looking butch enought for a woman, is a particular issue I get passed, because I date/play with women who like a female presentation. so I am in drag anyway.

I get quite a bit of headshaking from other Butches. but so far the ones who have talked with me understand where I am coming from. but, I think it stills makes them uncomfortable. (that I am in drag)

came back to add: so far most of the responces have been, along the lines of "just accept who you are, and how you are and get on with it" ... I was thinking that the discussion was intended to be more on HOW to get over it. (with some details) and what does it feel like "in the process" ... very valid points for discussion.

[Okiebug61]

My fear of shallow women has definitely driven me to work a little harder, too.

First I would say love yourself, take pride in being who you are and stay away from shallow women. If a women is after you only because you look the way she wants you to look she is not ready for the many paths and forks your life will take along the way.

[Okiebug61]

just a thought from this femme girl


if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.


just my humble .02

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!

[boobookitty]

just a thought from this femme girl

if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.

just my humble .02


(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

[TimilDeeps]

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

Absofuckinglutely. And I think a lot of times folks can be playful with what they "expect" a butch or femme to act like or wear, etc. and I know I play around with the stereotypes just for the sake of a silly reaction. i.e. I giggle sheepishly or bat my eyelashes knowing full well that "butches aren't supposed to do that" . . . make sense?

[boobookitty]

Absofuckinglutely. And I think a lot of times folks can be playful with what they "expect" a butch or femme to act like or wear, etc. and I know I play around with the stereotypes just for the sake of a silly reaction. i.e. I giggle sheepishly or bat my eyelashes knowing full well that "butches aren't supposed to do that" . . . make sense?

YES !!! IT DOES!!!!

(to me anyway)


--Laughing-- the red lipcolor on a Butch, really bothers a lot of people

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

When I first met my partner, she kept repeating "but I am NOT a butch!" Yeah right. I could FEEL the butch, male energy rolling off of her. 'Bout knocked me over! It was how she walked (she had the swagger going on), how she talked, how she sat, how she dressed... yes it was all of that, but damnit it was WAAY more than that! It came from within her. It was a palpable aura and energy that was just HER. And the femme in ME, the woman in me who has loved on and lusted over butch women for most of my life, woke up, became ALIVE again. Skin-pricklies going on. Breath-catching going on. That inner recognition in ME, recognizing and connecting with the butch energy in HER, THAT is what caught me. Would I have had the same reaction if she had red fingernails or was wearing a dress? If her butch energy was strong enough, it might have triggered something in me. Don't know. I do know that for me, the outer package is just part of it. I need and desire and connect with and give myself to that butch energy. My femme wants to dance the dance with that butch energy.

I was so NOT trying to presume to label her as a butch that first night, and in talks we've had later. I cannot or will not label anyone, that is for them to do. She has told me though, that I am the first person that has truly SEEN *her*, and accepted *her* as she is. She IS a butch, but she is a *woman* too. HELL YEAH! (I told her that for ME, she is exactly what I was looking for... she has the butch side and the female side as well. I get to play with both! Woo-hoo!)

[Parker]

The media puts so much pressure on women to look a certain way: to be rail thin, but not with a flat chest; to always be perfectly put together; to have completely symmetrical facial features; to conform to society's idea of femininity; and the list continues.

I have been with plenty of femmes who struggled with body image issues...

But what about the butches?

My body issues never stemmed from not looking feminine enough - I've never been feminine. Even when I was trying to be feminine with the dresses and makeup in college because that's what my mom wanted me to do - I still wasnt all that feminine and that was ok with me.

Conversely, my body issues never stemmed from not looking male, masculine, or man enough - because I am not, never was, and never will be a man.

Man or male and butch are not the same thing - it took me a few years to figure that out when I was first coming out because the fallacy that all butches are like men, or want to emulate men, or want to and eventually will become men was and still is out there.

But I love my female body - and I love being the butch that I am - so I had no issues with not looking *anything* enough. No one's opinion of my butchness (or the lack thereof, in their eyes) has ever really mattered to me.

My body issues come from my size, my weight. When I was in high school, college (the first time), and the Navy, I was thin - some said too thin at 135lbs and 5'10". After I got out of the Navy in my mid-20s, I gained about 65lbs in one year, averaging about 200lbs. It took me a few years to be ok with that weight. But now I am even bigger - about 265lbs and what I see on the outside is nothing like how I perceive myself on the inside. It sometimes makes me feel unattractive, unlovable, and undesirable.

I know that, along with men's and society's expectations of what I should look like, the birth of my issue probably also comes from when I was young and my mom - who wasnt really "fat" at all - would continually diet and complain about how fat she was. That thinking stuck with me as a kid and into my adult life and it has now become my own issue.

It is something I rarely talk about, but struggle with all the same.

[Toughy]

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

and I am being serious..........yes all of those things are butch when a butch wears/does them. There are plenty of butches who wear skirts and make-up to work every day. It's drag and we all wear drag of some kind or another every day.

-------------------

I cannot tell a butch (or anyone for that matter) what their process looks like when it comes to acceptance of the body we are born into.

I have always identified as a girl/woman and have never doubted that at all. The butch came later when I was in college. I knew I was a different kind of woman than what the TV/magazines/etc said I should be. It was the old bulldyke at the first dive gay bar I went to, who told me I was butch.

I was raised by women of pioneer stock. One of my grandmothers told stories about coming to NM in a covered wagon. All my women elders could do anything men could do and more. They all wore pants as well as dresses. I did not get that indoctrination of my greatest achievement would be in being a wife and a mother. I was lucky.....really lucky and I am always grateful to those women who provided examples of strong women whose worth was not defined by their husband and children.

Of course I was unsure about sex and my body.....everyone is. I was fortunate in finding femmes who helped me along with that....oh yes indeed they helped.....<grin>

I am never impressed with superficiality. never. ever. I understand there are femmes (and butches) who are superficial and I have a high radar for it. And I don't play in their playground. I don't want to be around anyone who is superficial.....there are plenty of other folks in this world.

I think I am rambling so I will stop.......

edited to add..........oh yeah......my only body image was I wanted to be 6 ft tall ...............5'8" is too short and I was a bit insecure about not being feminine enough but I outgrew that.

[Silverseastar]

I'm obviously far from butch but wading in because this thread moved me. I have to agree that it's like some inner space that speaks outwardly to me no matter how a person presents (throw on a dress and I'll still see you but maybe not quite as easily). As a femme, butchness calls to an inner space in me. But just like all femmes are not the same, neither are all butches (thank gawd!).

In a society that constantly evaluates people, especially female genders, on a set of standards and expectations of beauty and attractiveness I don't think you can grow up and dodge that bullet. Being butch may even be more complicated because there are two standards to push against instead of one. There is a silent butch standard even in the queer community.

But no matter what standards might exist in life trying to meet them pulls us farther from our true selves and anyone that might fall for that version of us is falling in love with an idea not a person. So I have to agree with the other posters. Work on being the healthiest happiest YOU you can be and it will be attractive to the right person. Who you are shines from the inside and that is what is attractive.

[TimilDeeps]

I'm obviously far from butch but wading in because this thread moved me. I have to agree that it's like some inner space that speaks outwardly to me no matter how a person presents (throw on a dress and I'll still see you but maybe not quite as easily). As a femme, butchness calls to an inner space in me. But just like all femmes are not the same, neither are all butches (thank gawd!).

In a society that constantly evaluates people, especially female genders, on a set of standards and expectations of beauty and attractiveness I don't think you can grow up and dodge that bullet. Being butch may even be more complicated because there are two standards to push against instead of one. There is a silent butch standard even in the queer community.

But no matter what standards might exist in life trying to meet them pulls us farther from our true selves and anyone that might fall for that version of us is falling in love with an idea not a person. So I have to agree with the other posters. Work on being the healthiest happiest YOU you can be and it will be attractive to the right person. Who you are shines from the inside and that is what is attractive.



Well said....

[clay]

Well said....

Ditto, Silverseastar!!!

[Miss Scarlett]

Ditto, Silverseastar!!!

i concur as well...

[CherylNYC]

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?



Apologies for participating in the derail, but I do want to comment on this. I'm dating a very butch woman who sometimes performs in female drag. Her drag personna feels a lot like a toughened up Diana Ross, but about a dozen sizes larger. Her personna wears wigs, heavy make-up, and sparkly dresses. The reason why everyone enjoys and understands the performance as drag is that her virile, masculine energy easily overwhelms any height of heel. Stereotypically feminine trappings only serve to accentuate her masculinity. That said, I don't think examining the ways in which butches may or may not choose to rock feminine drag is the purpose of the OP.

I'm really interested in how butches choose role models, especially while growing up. It must be extraordinarily complex. We're all bombarded with impossible ideals for feminine beauty, but for better or worse, there are virtually no media representations of butchness. How can/do butches, especially butches who grow up in relative isolation, make choices about how to present themselves? If that happens in isolation, it would seem like a minor miracle if eating disorders were not widespread amongst younger butches.

[clay]

For me, I don't "march to anyone else's drumbeat! I march to my own! I don't give a darn about society's "standards" or ideas of how they may "perceive" I should act.
I am a LESBIAN, a woman, and I embrace that part of me. I do happen to enjoy wearing "sportier" clothing, and yes they are male clothing items. I wear them because it just feels right to me..it feels like ME.....I don't wear them because it is what is dictated to me by some other's ideas of whom I should be, do, act like, or dress like. I make MY own choices! I was a tomboi from as early as when I was walking....and by age 5 I was always "daddi" in playing house. Oh yes, we emulated the role models we had...but by age 23 I knew I walked a different pathway to my own inner journey..and I walked it on my own terms...no one else's.
I have never let anyone dictate how I should look, act, or be..it just is NOT negotiable. I have always tried to live by the old adage, "to thine own self, be true, then thou cannot be false to any (wo)man"
I am a rare breed of butch.... I am very tender hearted, gentle, compassionate, and very sentimental, and I wore my "heart on my sleeve" until a certain southern lady told me to roll it up in my sleeve..it was no longer available...grins.....I treat my partner as an equal in all respects. While we have dynamics we enjoy in our own personal space, again, we neither march to anyone else's drums...we make our own "rules of engagement"..allowing NO fashion police, no collar police, NO etiquette police, and No dom police to rule how we interact. But I digress.....
Superficiality has no place in my world. Someone who is out to "change" someone else will probably never be satisfied...there will most likely always be one more thing, one more way, or one more something that will make you be what they are trying to mold...
My own butchness comes from deep within my soul..it is something I was born with...I embraced that very early on in life...it isn't something learned, or studied, taught, or emulated..it resonates deep within me...it is my own drumbeat..it is that inner sanctum of where I reside....I dress for me, and me alone....I act for me, and me alone, and I love for me, and me alone...and when I find someone who "gets" me, gels with me, and we have the incredible synergies, chemistries, and dynamics that just work for us...we make our own symphony...NOT according to society or any other person..
My butchness can't be described in any particular terms, or be in a certain manner of dress, or be set by anyone else's standards...this is MY own personal aura....coming from within...it is my soul...my heart...my inner being...how I treat others...my own credo and motto, and my own outer wrapping as I so choose....I am after all, a human being..being "butch" is just one tiny part of this unique ME...it is my humaneness...my staying true to my own self...walking this journey with love, respect, and understanding of all others..and respecting their freedom to be who they are...and not trying to change the world..living within my own space...I am a woman...I am a human...I am loved...for being myself!
Excellent post, awesome feedback, and great idea for a thread, Alex! I just wanted to say I admire you...you have an awesome soul, buddy!!!

[clay]

Excellent post, Cheryl!
For me, I grew up with no role models,(until age 19-23) my butchness came from within..I was born with mine...I am a "rare" breed of butch...and I always danced to my own tunes. I walked to my own drumbeat! I never let anyone dictate to me who, what, how, where, or when I should be anything BUT me. It was very hard, growing up in the 60's...BUT I thank Woodstock, the Hippies, the age of the Flower Power people, and living in Hawaii for 4 years. The island of Oahu gave me so much..so damned much..it was a huge melting pot of some truly gentle peoples...the South Pacific Islanders...who were so gentle, so loving, so accepting of so many different "identities"
My role models were the survivors of the Stonewall beatings and witch hunts, the super human heroes of the Military who fought to ensure my rights while losing many of their own, and the awesome women such as Phyllis & Del Lyons, Radclyffe Hall (Well of Loneliness), the Marchers on Washington, and the others who followed..so bravely and gave their all..and made huge sacrifices....but I never dressed according to anyone's standards, instead as to how I felt comfortable. I am a sporty butch, if you will. If I wanted to wear combat boots, carry a heavy chained wallet in my back pcket, and chew tobacco.,..it was because I made that choice...NOT because someone wrote or said I should....or that it defined any gender or identity.
I never had any "gay" friends until I was in my late 20's. I came out at age 23 with a 36 year old femme...and the song "Help Me Make It Through The Night" by Sammi Smith lol..and I never looked back. I didn't know the words "lesbian, gay, queer, dyke" or such til I read the works of Radclyffe Hall and of course the Beebo Brinker series...lol...BUT it also never mattered to me..as I loved women and that was all I needed to know. I have never been a fan of labels..of any kind...and I HATE the word "queer" and "faggot"...I try to live and love my own terms and respect others. I have never made any apologies for who I am and how I am...nor will I. It is surprising how open minded I am, having been reared in the Deep South, in the Bible Belt, no less...BUT I always accepted folks for themselves, never was prejudiced in any way, and respected others! My family was quite the opposite. I was shunned when I came out, and I still lived and stayed true to my own self..I REFUSE to be told how I should live, love, dress, act, or anything else..it is my life and my chocies, on my own terms. I live my life on my own terms...and I am thankful to have grown up with some incredible pioneer role models...it is through the sufferings and humiliations of those before me that I am afforded the liberties and slow but sure rights we are gaining today.
My thoughts here are from my own perspective, and are not meant to "generalize" or to "compartmentalize" anyone...just my own .02!!! Apologies for participating in the derail, but I do want to comment on this. I'm dating a very butch woman who sometimes performs in female drag. Her drag personna feels a lot like a toughened up Diana Ross, but about a dozen sizes larger. Her personna wears wigs, heavy make-up, and sparkly dresses. The reason why everyone enjoys and understands the performance as drag is that her virile, masculine energy easily overwhelms any height of heel. Stereotypically feminine trappings only serve to accentuate her masculinity. That said, I don't think examining the ways in which butches may or may not choose to rock feminine drag is the purpose of the OP.

I'm really interested in how butches choose role models, especially while growing up. It must be extraordinarily complex. We're all bombarded with impossible ideals for feminine beauty, but for better or worse, there are virtually no media representations of butchness. How can/do butches, especially butches who grow up in relative isolation, make choices about how to present themselves? If that happens in isolation, it would seem like a minor miracle if eating disorders were not widespread amongst younger butches.

[BullDog]

I am butch, I am female, I am a woman. I have never compared myself to males or used that as any sort of measuring stick for what butch is for me. Therefore I never come up short.

I do embrace masculinity- female masculinity. It is expressed through my energy, my appearance, my attitude and sense of self. It is a large part of being butch and who I am.

As to my body I would prefer not to have breasts, but I can live with it and do. Other than that I am quite fine with my female body.

[Scuba]

First let me say. I speak ONLY for me and anything put down in this post refers ONLY to how I feel. I am not making blanket statements in anything I write here but only trying to lay out the experiences I have had.

I identify as butch/queer. I only identify because it helps OTHERS understand who I am. If I had a choice, I would like to identify as Chris but that's a whole different topic.

To me, the media is just downright evil when it comes to defining the human form whether masculine, feminine or other. How would it be if we all just lived in the dark? I wouldn't question my body or appearances because, well, what would I be comparing it to? I fully admit that commercialized beauty gets into my fragile little psyche and does a number on it. Do I want to look like an Adonis? Hell yes. Do I? Hell no. Do I care? Hell yes. Do I want to care? Absolutely not. It is a struggle. It is a daily struggle. It makes me feel superficial and shallow and I hate that.

There are days when I wake up and look in the mirror and think "there is NO way in HELL I'd show this body to anyone". Since I am not considering transitioning, I need to come to a happy compromise when it comes to what I "see" and what is real. For me, this is simply eating well, working out and keeping my body fit. Notice, I didn't say lean. I said fit. However, commercialized beauty will either send me under the blanket on the couch (there's now way I can measure up to society's expectations) or it motivates me back to the gym. This is a crap shoot on any given day and I tend to react both ways.

It's no wonder folks have eating disorders. I know for me, I choose my clothing wisely. I am actually quite anal about this. I buy only men's clothing and make sure that it makes my physique look masculine. Shopping for me is a chore and not a fun one. It takes a lot of trying on of clothes to make me happy. It can be depressing and makes me go to that "under the blanket place" pretty quickly. Especially when you finally find that brand that fits and they change it or discontinue it.

As far as what femmes expect? I can't answer that. But I do catch myself posturing and puffing out the chest sometimes. Does this help my cause? I have no idea. I'm sure I get more snickers than anything. The bottom line in my world is: everyone is different and well, not everyone is for everyone.

I am at a place in my life now where my body image is all about me. I need to be happy with how I look. Really, that's all that matters. I don't always get to that place but that's okay. I do believe that when I feel like I look like a million bucks (even if I just stepped off of a dirt pile) then others see that in me as well. Confidence does amazing things...just saying. :)

The overall sentiment that it's how we feel inside that defines us is the absolute truth. There is indeed someone for everyone.

Cheers,

Scoobs

[clay]

well spoken, Scoobs!!! ^5 dood!

[Kelt]

First let me say. I speak ONLY for me and anything put down in this post refers ONLY to how I feel.
Scoobs

Actually, you spoke quite well for me too. Thank you.

:balloon:

[Scuba]

For me, I grew up with no role models,(until age 19-23) my butchness came from within..I was born with mine..."

I read "The Well of Loneliness" in my early 20s and it changed my world. It was my first exposure to female masculinity and my first exposure to the butch/femme dynamic. Later on in life, maybe late 30s, I happened to cross paths with a very butch woman who ended up bring vast amounts of wisdom and insight to my life under the rock :)

[Turtle]

I've never fit in with the society I've observed around me.

Somehow, I know "tomboy" was probably me, but it took awhile to figure out what it meant and if it was a putdown or not because, for me, it just felt like a statement of fact. You could always find me up a tree, riding bikes, or catching frogs (and letting them go) somewhere.

I wanted "boy's underwear," black high tops, and to run around in the summer with my shirt off.

As a teenager, I wanted to cut off my breasts and cut out my uterus...and a couple of times since then...AND I have given birth to two babies and fed those babies with those breasts, which brought me to accepting my body in all of its ways of being.

I've tried having discussions (mostly because I process information better out loud or in expression) with other people about what they think about breasts/no breasts, hormones, etc....and learned that all that doesn't matter, I need to do what I need to do and others do what's best for them.

I do appreciate a good discussion though, on anything.

I have gotten used to not fitting in so neatly with the society around me. I have learned to find like folk. I have learned to say "fuck it." I have come to a place where I really love this life and I just try to share that where I can...no matter what I'm wearing, what's in my pants, or how my hair is cut. Amen.

[AlexHunter]

ScubaDyke - I identify strongly with everything you said. You summed up my sentiments perfectly.

[Mr Nice Guy]

I've had pressure from a Femme because I wasn't big enough. I'm sorry but I'm not going to gain weight to make you feel more secure. I'm a small butch who can kick ass if I need too. ;)

[girl_dee]

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

indeed it does :)

Who we are is not defined by clothes or fingernails :)

i am femme not matter what i wear, i feel the same goes for butches! :)

[girl_dee]

I've had pressure from a Femme because I wasn't big enough. I'm sorry but I'm not going to gain weight to make you feel more secure. I'm a small butch who can kick ass if I need too. ;)

i was once told i was not femme enough because i clean fish and don't always run around in skirts... my reply was less than "ladylike" :)

i agree i am not going to change to validate someone else.

[AlexHunter]

I had more to say, but no time to sit down and write it until now. :)

With regards to role models, I was a very boyish kid. When people asked me who I wanted to be when I grew up, my reply was always, "I want to be a man!" This scared some adults. :) I thought I wanted to transition, so I looked up to the men who I found honorable. I definitely viewed my dad in high regard and wanted to be just like him. He treated my mom well and instilled in me the ideals of being a gentleman. I also looked up to the leading men in old movies because they were well-dressed, polite, and surrounded by ladies.

When I was 20 years old, I read "Stone Butch Blues" and felt I had many similarities with the narrator, Jess. She was an inspiration; even though she was a character in a book, she made me feel like someone "got it." I felt very third-gendered; not quite a man and not quite a woman - Jess called herself a "he she" and I called myself a "dude chick."

Like the young Jess, I, too, had a couple older butches take me under their wing when I first moved to DC and immersed myself in the gay scene. They both saw bits and pieces of themselves in me and were happy to talk to someone young, green, and sincere. I did not see them as role models per se, but I deeply respected them and enjoyed swapping stories.

I also see Ivan E Coyote as an inspiration.

I dated and pursued a few girls when I was a teenager. Most of them were "straight," so I felt definite pressure to one-up bio men. I thought I could treat a girl better than most of the guys (both in and out of the bedroom), though I was deeply saddened that I couldn't grow a dick and do what guys could. Once I bought my first strap on at 18, that insecurity went away. ;) *Smirk*

I was sheltered from queer culture as a teen, so I found myself constantly asking, "Who would want someone like me?" and even crying about it. I was so excited when I discovered femmes. :D Having grown up around guys (weight lifting team in high school, was friends with all the jocks), I gained some of that typical guy mentality and wanted the hottest girl possible on my arm. In order to get the hottest girl possible, I put a lot of pressure on myself to look very good, too.

I have since realized the grave importance of intellectualism (sure, beauty and brains are both important, but an intelligent mind is what will keep me around). That is simply part of growing up. I have also gotten my fair share of compliments on the way I look, which made me feel compelled to keep things nice. The compliments have been a huge turnaround from what I was used to while growing up. I was pushed down the stairs in middle school for being an "ugly boy" and ridiculed throughout my youth for being different. The insults to my physical appearance as a kid scarred me. Frankly, I was not ugly. No. I was just different.

People fear what they do not understand.

[Scuba]

Frankly, I was not ugly. No. I was just different.

People fear what they do not understand.

Amen to both statements!!

[Novelafemme]

I've never fit in with the society I've observed around me.

Somehow, I know "tomboy" was probably me, but it took awhile to figure out what it meant and if it was a putdown or not because, for me, it just felt like a statement of fact. You could always find me up a tree, riding bikes, or catching frogs (and letting them go) somewhere.

I wanted "boy's underwear," black high tops, and to run around in the summer with my shirt off.

As a teenager, I wanted to cut off my breasts and cut out my uterus...and a couple of times since then...AND I have given birth to two babies and fed those babies with those breasts, which brought me to accepting my body in all of its ways of being.

I've tried having discussions (mostly because I process information better out loud or in expression) with other people about what they think about breasts/no breasts, hormones, etc....and learned that all that doesn't matter, I need to do what I need to do and others do what's best for them.

I do appreciate a good discussion though, on anything.

I have gotten used to not fitting in so neatly with the society around me. I have learned to find like folk. I have learned to say "fuck it." I have come to a place where I really love this life and I just try to share that where I can...no matter what I'm wearing, what's in my pants, or how my hair is cut. Amen.


Fucking, AMEN!!!! I love this post!

[charlie1]

first, let me say how much i have enjoyed these posts. a lot of common ground regarding our paths that have led to self-acceptance.

i too wanted to be a boy. from my earliest memories i was begging my parents for more masculine clothes, boy toys, to cut my hair shorter. i even wore my brother's suit for picture day in second grade. i was very fortunate to have parents that indulged my interests and was given a carpentry set and all sorts of tools, fishing / hunting equipment, bicycles, motorcycles, b-ball, etc from the age of 5. my dad would tell me if i could kiss my elbow i would turn into a boy. i struggled with that contortion.

when it comes to butch energy i believe that is spot on...alive and well. i'm androgyneous. and physically have been able to live as a butch and a femme. now note and i will say again that's physically as a femme. and i did so in my late 20s into my mid-30s because i believed it would help me assimilate more in the corporate world. i grew my hair out, i wore skirts, make-up, earrings. i attracted a lot of butches, i had men try to carry my luggage for me at the airport, etc. but i still had the swagger / mannerisms that conflicted with what people saw and what they sensed about me. if i approached a ticket agent and she had her head down to the computer, she would always say, "how my i help you, sir?" then look up and gulp. i didn't look like a man in drag. i was a beautiful woman. the butch energy just exudes from me.

1997 rolled around. i found myself living in LA with a partner that loved my dichotomy but struggled with her own sexuality and outness. i said fuck all this, shaved my head clean and headed out on my bicycle for a 6-week sabbatical. after 3 weeks i was itching to get back to work...and my head itched under my bandana because my hair was growing out. i haven't ever looked back. i keep my hair short and dress as myself in a butch corporate kind of way. no longer do i focus on being so much a success there as i concentrate on being the best me i can be. don't get me wrong, i still strive to do a great job at work. i don't identify "success" with my job as the target i'm trying to hit any longer. i want my personal happiness and acceptance to be that.

[WomenMoveMe]

"Can I help you, sir?" For so many years this question tumbled from the mouths of those who did not know me. I thought this question came only because they were looking at my height, and the substance of me, and not the whole of me. Surely it could not be that they truly thought I was a man. Yes, I was 6’ tall and lean with shoulders wider than hip. Yes, I had short hair. Yes, I wore men’s clothing and shoes. Was this all it took to be thought a male?

Quickly hunching over in effort to pull my breasts into me, dropping my voice down as many octaves as possible, I attempted to become the man my addresser thought me to be. Without making eye contact, I would hurry to the sanctity of the exit, as I muttered, “just looking". More often than not, they stood staring at me, confused, before apologizing and falling all over themselves to correct their mistake. This only made it worse. I hated myself, as well as the angst and confusion being me, seemingly caused others.

I knew were I to open my mouth to speak, were I to look them squarely in the eye, they would see the error of their way. I knew it would be uncomfortable for them. Why did I care if this person, whom I did not know, was made to feel uncomfortable? It was not my issue after all. It would fall on their shoulders right? They were the ones that did not “see” me. Did not take the time to “see” the woman that stood before them. So many years I blamed others. It took me so very long to understand that they DID “see” me. It was I who did not “see” myself. It was I that was uncomfortable. It saddens me to admit, I performed this on the spot transformation, because I was ashamed and embarrassed. I did this because I did not know then, that is was not only alright to be me, but that being me was something special, and rare.

I can not blame my struggle with my “butchitude” (as I would come to call it) on not knowing any other like me. I can not blame it on the ignorance of others. The struggle was mine. I did not trust that being who and what I was, was alright. It was not until I met, what I was to learn was a “femme”, that I came to know the dynamic I needed in order to realize complete love and acceptance. It was enlightening and life-altering. My person, and my ability to express it, became part of me, and I reveled in it. I felt the personal freedom to no longer hide the masculine essence that was so much a part of me. I embraced it, and it changed my world.

She was the one that helped me understand that not only was I worthy of being loved just as I am, but because of it. And to think, I almost walked away from her because I felt being with me might cause her public embarrassment. My struggle might have lingered, had this beautiful woman not seen me, had not said to me “Listen, you idiot, get over yourself and do it right now! I knew when I got with you people would know I was queer, and for the first time in my life, I don’t care and you shouldn‘t either”.

That statement alone, allowed me to accept who and what I was. It afforded me the ability and the understanding to just be. It gifted me with the confidence to revel in my masculine energy. It gave me happiness and self-acceptance.

Gone are the days of sucking in my chest, of speaking in some distorted voice in effort to appease the comfort levels of others. Butch did not mean I had to be, or was, a man, It did not mean I was not meant to be in my body. I am a butch woman and masculine energy pours forth from within me. It is palpable, and truthfully, it kinda makes me feel desirable. It seems so easy now, being butch. I spent a lot of years struggling internally, but here I sit today, proudly proclaiming, I am butch…I am me.

[Turtle]

Thank you all for sharing yourselves here.

Every time I take a gender test I score androgynous. I certainly had a long time of rejecting my femaleness and I am very thankful for having had my children - not just for the amazing experience of parenting children into adults, but for growing me into a fuller human being and for coming into accepting and liking my femaleness. Being pregnant and breastfeeding is amazing.

And yes, there were times when I struggled with society's perceptions, parameters, and projections. Yes, I worked seriously on the idea of "looking better" with make-up on my face....and getting to the place of "No, I don't want to do that" and what it means for me (please do not read any judgement of what others may do).

And yes, at this point I love it when someone in a store calls me "sir" - then realizes and apologizes - and I say "It's all right - REALLY" in hopes of readjusting the paradigm just a bit. :hammer:

Sometimes being unique is difficult, but it gets easier - it's one of the good parts about getting older...much of this stuff gets to a more "settled" place...and these kinds of discussions and sharings are part of how I got here. Thank you.

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

"Can I help you, sir?" For so many years this question tumbled from the mouths of those who did not know me. I thought this question came only because they were looking at my height, and the substance of me, and not the whole of me. Surely it could not be that they truly thought I was a man. Yes, I was 6’ tall and lean with shoulders wider than hip. Yes, I had short hair. Yes, I wore men’s clothing and shoes. Was this all it took to be thought a male?

Quickly hunching over in effort to pull my breasts into me, dropping my voice down as many octaves as possible, I attempted to become the man my addresser thought me to be. Without making eye contact, I would hurry to the sanctity of the exit, as I muttered, “just looking". More often than not, they stood staring at me, confused, before apologizing and falling all over themselves to correct their mistake. This only made it worse. I hated myself, as well as the angst and confusion being me, seemingly caused others.

I knew were I to open my mouth to speak, were I to look them squarely in the eye, they would see the error of their way. I knew it would be uncomfortable for them. Why did I care if this person, whom I did not know, was made to feel uncomfortable? It was not my issue after all. It would fall on their shoulders right? They were the ones that did not “see” me. Did not take the time to “see” the woman that stood before them. So many years I blamed others. It took me so very long to understand that they DID “see” me. It was I who did not “see” myself. It was I that was uncomfortable. It saddens me to admit, I performed this on the spot transformation, because I was ashamed and embarrassed. I did this because I did not know then, that is was not only alright to be me, but that being me was something special, and rare.

I can not blame my struggle with my “butchitude” (as I would come to call it) on not knowing any other like me. I can not blame it on the ignorance of others. The struggle was mine. I did not trust that being who and what I was, was alright. It was not until I met, what I was to learn was a “femme”, that I came to know the dynamic I needed in order to realize complete love and acceptance. It was enlightening and life-altering. My person, and my ability to express it, became part of me, and I reveled in it. I felt the personal freedom to no longer hide the masculine essence that was so much a part of me. I embraced it, and it changed my world.

She was the one that helped me understand that not only was I worthy of being loved just as I am, but because of it. And to think, I almost walked away from her because I felt being with me might cause her public embarrassment. My struggle might have lingered, had this beautiful woman not seen me, had not said to me “Listen, you idiot, get over yourself and do it right now! I knew when I got with you people would know I was queer, and for the first time in my life, I don’t care and you shouldn‘t either”.

That statement alone, allowed me to accept who and what I was. It afforded me the ability and the understanding to just be. It gifted me with the confidence to revel in my masculine energy. It gave me happiness and self-acceptance.

Gone are the days of sucking in my chest, of speaking in some distorted voice in effort to appease the comfort levels of others. Butch did not mean I had to be, or was, a man, It did not mean I was not meant to be in my body. I am a butch woman and masculine energy pours forth from within me. It is palpable, and truthfully, it kinda makes me feel desirable. It seems so easy now, being butch. I spent a lot of years struggling internally, but here I sit today, proudly proclaiming, I am butch…I am me.

this almost brought me to tears. so beautiful and powerful and fierce.... the truth! thank you!

[Scuba]

"Can I help you, sir?" For so many years this question tumbled from the mouths of those who did not know me. I thought this question came only because they were looking at my height, and the substance of me, and not the whole of me. Surely it could not be that they truly thought I was a man. Yes, I was 6’ tall and lean with shoulders wider than hip. Yes, I had short hair. Yes, I wore men’s clothing and shoes. Was this all it took to be thought a male?

Quickly hunching over in effort to pull my breasts into me, dropping my voice down as many octaves as possible, I attempted to become the man my addresser thought me to be. Without making eye contact, I would hurry to the sanctity of the exit, as I muttered, “just looking". More often than not, they stood staring at me, confused, before apologizing and falling all over themselves to correct their mistake. This only made it worse. I hated myself, as well as the angst and confusion being me, seemingly caused others.

I knew were I to open my mouth to speak, were I to look them squarely in the eye, they would see the error of their way. I knew it would be uncomfortable for them. Why did I care if this person, whom I did not know, was made to feel uncomfortable? It was not my issue after all. It would fall on their shoulders right? They were the ones that did not “see” me. Did not take the time to “see” the woman that stood before them. So many years I blamed others. It took me so very long to understand that they DID “see” me. It was I who did not “see” myself. It was I that was uncomfortable. It saddens me to admit, I performed this on the spot transformation, because I was ashamed and embarrassed. I did this because I did not know then, that is was not only alright to be me, but that being me was something special, and rare.

I can not blame my struggle with my “butchitude” (as I would come to call it) on not knowing any other like me. I can not blame it on the ignorance of others. The struggle was mine. I did not trust that being who and what I was, was alright. It was not until I met, what I was to learn was a “femme”, that I came to know the dynamic I needed in order to realize complete love and acceptance. It was enlightening and life-altering. My person, and my ability to express it, became part of me, and I reveled in it. I felt the personal freedom to no longer hide the masculine essence that was so much a part of me. I embraced it, and it changed my world.

She was the one that helped me understand that not only was I worthy of being loved just as I am, but because of it. And to think, I almost walked away from her because I felt being with me might cause her public embarrassment. My struggle might have lingered, had this beautiful woman not seen me, had not said to me “Listen, you idiot, get over yourself and do it right now! I knew when I got with you people would know I was queer, and for the first time in my life, I don’t care and you shouldn‘t either”.

That statement alone, allowed me to accept who and what I was. It afforded me the ability and the understanding to just be. It gifted me with the confidence to revel in my masculine energy. It gave me happiness and self-acceptance.

Gone are the days of sucking in my chest, of speaking in some distorted voice in effort to appease the comfort levels of others. Butch did not mean I had to be, or was, a man, It did not mean I was not meant to be in my body. I am a butch woman and masculine energy pours forth from within me. It is palpable, and truthfully, it kinda makes me feel desirable. It seems so easy now, being butch. I spent a lot of years struggling internally, but here I sit today, proudly proclaiming, I am butch…I am me.

Well said!!! Although not 6 foot tall, this was my experience as well!

[RNguy]

First off , thank you for this thread . It's very interesting and thank you for all of the butches/bois/FTM/he/hy/she for stepping out and sharing your feelings ... I just want to NOT offend anyone and before you read this , please comprehend that this is about ME ONLY . How I feel only about ME . :) ok I think that opening paragraph clears me :) wow , I don't talk about really who I am as a person really , I'm pretty closed down unless you know me very well in real time . This is a big deal that I'm sharing something personal . I have one brother , who I am very close to . It's just he and I as siblings . We are 3 years apart and a few months . He should have been a girl and I should have been a boy no doubt . With that said my brother is not gay , he is a heterosexual married male . We grew up in a very small area and there were about 20 boys all close in age and only one girl my age in our neighborhood. At 3 to 4 years of age is when I can remember things of toys , what I played with and how I was . I can remember being extremely upset that my mom put a dress on me and I told her boys don't wear these and I stripped naked . She said to me " you're not a boy , Blake " ( well she shouldn't have named me Blake right :) that's my real name by the way , I'm lucky :) ) anyways , when she said that , I flat out didn't believe her in the least . I only was around the boys , played with boys toys etc... I was too young at that point to know the anatomical differences . My mom said that she couldn't put any dresses on me because of the scene I made as a young child. All that changed later but that's a story that ill never go into here . Anyways , as I grew older into elementary years I looked like a little boy . I played football , strong as an ox , the little girls chased me and treated me like all the other boys and the other boys treated me as alike because appearance wise that's what I looked like . Well junior high hits and my facial structure changes and my body starts the big change . Except my face which still was the boy face really . My gosh I hated the body change . I knew at this point the anatomical difference between boys and girls were and I was not happy at all. I lucked out in the sence that I have a masculine body structure naturally with how my shoulders , arms , legs , thighs are. I never had prominent curves like the female body structures tend to have so that's good . Where I am from , being so small , we all grew up from K-12th grade . Nobody really viewed me as being a girl nor did I view myself as one even though I was aware that I was born a female . At 12 I was diagnosed with having a gender identity disorder . This was my mothers way of coping with a butch child , to make herself have the clarity that it was nothing she did wrong , and to make it known to me that I had a serious mental problem that needed corrected . At 27 , I paid a visit to the same doctor to diagnose him as uneducated , unsympathetic, and a quack :) . I took t shots for some time , had a top surgery alteration as well trying to correct what is flawed with me . I'm now 36 and feel I'm not flawed at all . I'm perfect . I'm me , I dress how I want which is how your typical male dresses , I smell how I do , which is how your typical guy smells , my hair is how it is which is well short , brown with some silver coming in here and there , I soft pack sometimes when I feel like it , I never bind my chest , bc I don't care for one and for a second there isn't much there to bind . Was a born in the wrong body ? YEP NO DOUBT ... Am I upset about it ? NOPE , GOD WANTED ME LIKE THIS FOR HIS REASONS. Do I like my body ? LOVE IT ALL 5 FT 1 IN OF IT :) . Do others like my body ? I DO NOT CARE. Have I been called a freak from people on the streets ? YEP OFTEN IN APPALACHIA ,. does that offend me ? I LOVE FREAKS :) NO !!!!! its taken me a ling time to be in this mindset but this is something personal about me. Thanks for reading .....RNguy ( Blake )

[dykeumentary]

Regarding body image and self-care:
I'd just like to take a moment to pour a cyber-libation for my butch sisters ive known who have died. I knew many butches who wouldnt/couldn't go to the ob/gyn, and died of preventable and treatable cervical and breast cancers. Also, I've known many butch women who struggled with addictions. When I think of my years of being a young butch, i remember the older butches at the bars, and in the softball leagues always hed a beer and a cigarette.

I imagine the butches I knew who have died would be happy that so many young people go to the doctor. One of the reasons I support Planned Parenthood is because for many of us butches, it was the only health care clinic where we felt comfortable.
I'm glad this thread is pointing out how proud butches are of their bodies now.
Because for a very long time our butch bodies were a battlefield, and many good friends lost the battle.

[TimilDeeps]

Regarding body image and self-care:
I'd just like to take a moment to pour a cyber-libation for my butch sisters ive known who have died. I knew many butches who wouldnt/couldn't go to the ob/gyn, and died of preventable and treatable cervical and breast cancers. Also, I've known many butch women who struggled with addictions. When I think of my years of being a young butch, i remember the older butches at the bars, and in the softball leagues always hed a beer and a cigarette.

I imagine the butches I knew who have died would be happy that so many young people go to the doctor. One of the reasons I support Planned Parenthood is because for many of us butches, it was the only health care clinic where we felt comfortable.
I'm glad this thread is pointing out how proud butches are of their bodies now.
Because for a very long time our butch bodies were a battlefield, and many good friends lost the battle.

salut:beerbros:

[clay]

Thanks for that post dykeumentary (hope I spelled your nic right...:)....)
I have always have my yearly screenings done..labs/pelvic with pap/mammos. As far as that , my being butch has nothing to do with the choice of getting or not..it is MY choice to remain as healthy as I possibly can...as a womyn! :). I was in health care field for 21 years..and I KNOW to get those screenings done!
Last year, I had female issues that led me to a uterine biopsy, that netted me being sent to a Gynecological Oncologist at a nearby major teaching hospital. Before I saw trhat doc, she ordered a colonoscopy! I hadn' t had one of those in "years" but went on and had it. Luckily for me, a mass was found, biopsied, and WAS malignant. So I had TWO major abdominal surgeries Dec. 9th back to back..with an abd hystero done then a colon resection..I lost 16 inches of colon...BUT am alive and "unofficially" cancer free. I am having scans and labs done May 8th to check for anything new...the surgeons said I had dodged a major bullet, having that colon malignancy found as early as it was...and I didn't have to have nay chemo or radiation. So, my point? I urge everyone of us to get those yearly screenings done. Mine literally saved my life...
I, too, have lost friends to the dreaded C...which may have been prevented with screenings done regularly! So I am with you on that one....thanks for the reminder!!!

[Ginger]

What an interesting thread, in content of course, but also in that so many femmes are responding to it! :)

It triggered a memory of a butch I knew a long time ago. She was a young, thin person, and talked about feeling pressure to put on weight! Big butch women teased her for not being "butch" enough, because she was small.

I realized then that oppression around body image was not limited to the cultural pressure on feminine women, to be thin!

[girl_dee]

What an interesting thread, in content of course, but also in that so many femmes are responding to it! :)

It triggered a memory of a butch I knew a long time ago. She was a young, thin person, and talked about feeling pressure to put on weight! Big butch women teased her for not being "butch" enough, because she was small.

I realized then that oppression around body image was not limited to the cultural pressure on feminine women, to be thin!

That's because femmes go through this stuff too.

We do. :)

[dykeumentary]

That's because femmes go through this stuff too.

We do. :)

Please tell us more about this.

[Soft*Silver]

I am opening up two resale clothing shops..one for plus sized females, and one for all sized males.

I fully expect males to be shopping in the female store, and females to be shopping in the male store

for themselves.

I want my stores to be a place where people feel valued for who they are, not what number they wear, or what gender they need to costume up as.

I have gone thru such an incredible evolution over the past few years. I am as femme as they come yet I certainly dress quite different. At times, I could almost pass as butch, if wardrobe were the only thing that would define as such.

My sub is a bio male who is 6'5" and MASSIVE. And femme. I buy him lingerie as well as carharts. He is all muscle but hates the outdoors. I wear nailpolish and heels and live to be dirty, either gardening or at the barns. He wears red lipstick. I wear pink. He has long hair. I have short. We both are round bellied. I am enchanted by him. He desires me. We both feel good about ourselves (now)...and that is where worth comes in. It costs us so much when we value ourselves thru others' eyes, but its priceless when we treasure who we are ourselves. The enormity of this treasure is one of the many reasons we are so drawn to one another. Regardless of how we fit in the world, we fit with each other. Yet, first and foremost, we had to journey on our own, to where we first felt we fit as Our Selves.

in the past we both have felt like the world disowned us by gender because we didnt fit the norm. We both felt at different times in our lives, we were freaks and felt shame over it. And yet we also fit the "norm" as well. We could "pass" as "acceptable". Yet what we realy wanted was to be defined as acceptable by not "passing" but simply "being"...

People can live in dual realities that split open like atoms depending on who is viewing us, and that includes ourselves.

[Parker]

"Can I help you, sir?" For so many years this question tumbled from the mouths of those who did not know me. I thought this question came only because they were looking at my height, and the substance of me, and not the whole of me. Surely it could not be that they truly thought I was a man. Yes, I was 6’ tall and lean with shoulders wider than hip. Yes, I had short hair. Yes, I wore men’s clothing and shoes. Was this all it took to be thought a male?

Great post - all of it.

I go through this as well. One time, I stopped the clerk and asked him to look at me. He immediately apologized profusely, embarrassing me even more, but I persisted and refused to shrink away that day.

He told me he didnt see me, that he wasnt paying attention, that he saw the hat and assumed. I told him that was the point - that, instead of just glancing up and assuming, stop for a moment and look at the human being in front of him.

I have heard the excuse that it's my short hair, or it's my hat, or it's my clothes, or it's my stance - but in reality, people are just in too much of a hurry to stop and really *see* the people around them.

Because when you actually look at me, you can see the masculinity, sure; but you can also see the woman in which that masculinity resides.

[Miss Scarlett]

Thanks for that post dykeumentary (hope I spelled your nic right...:)....)
I have always have my yearly screenings done..labs/pelvic with pap/mammos. As far as that , my being butch has nothing to do with the choice of getting or not..it is MY choice to remain as healthy as I possibly can...as a womyn! :). I was in health care field for 21 years..and I KNOW to get those screenings done!
Last year, I had female issues that led me to a uterine biopsy, that netted me being sent to a Gynecological Oncologist at a nearby major teaching hospital. Before I saw trhat doc, she ordered a colonoscopy! I hadn' t had one of those in "years" but went on and had it. Luckily for me, a mass was found, biopsied, and WAS malignant. So I had TWO major abdominal surgeries Dec. 9th back to back..with an abd hystero done then a colon resection..I lost 16 inches of colon...BUT am alive and "unofficially" cancer free. I am having scans and labs done May 8th to check for anything new...the surgeons said I had dodged a major bullet, having that colon malignancy found as early as it was...and I didn't have to have nay chemo or radiation. So, my point? I urge everyone of us to get those yearly screenings done. Mine literally saved my life...
I, too, have lost friends to the dreaded C...which may have been prevented with screenings done regularly! So I am with you on that one....thanks for the reminder!!!

Screenings...i understand that this is not a comfortable subject or experience for a lot of folks...even some femmes.

But please, please, please don't neglect your bodies...i'm grateful that Clay did not.

[girl_dee]

Please tell us more about this.

i can only speak for myself. i am a girl, a woman, a femme ... thats who i am. i didn't go out and find a label then try to conform to it. i am me and if there is a label out there fine i don't care, but i can't live up to someone expectations of what the label means.

i also like to play in the mud, catch, clean and cook my own fish, i want to drive my own boat thank you. i can change the oil in my truck and am very mechanically inclined. i fix things. i am just as comfy in overalls (sometimes i even wear a shirt with them) and workboots as i am in a sundress and sandals. i don't cater to long nails but my toes are well taken care of. i guess at tomboy at times, i've always been that.

WHen i left my job as a banking officer i ditched all of my dress up clothes and enjoyed a life of not having to deal with all of it. i love jeans, a nice shirt and boots, i cuss, i cut my hair off if it gets in the way.

i have been with butches who felt my being less than high femme was not acceptable. i will never forget the look on my exes face when she walked in and i had my hand in a fish's gut. She was horrified and said femmes just don't do those sorts of things.

i was told to get fingernails and wear more *feminine* clothes.

One day a butch was at my house visiting when it began to pour down raining. My boat was filling up with water... she went out to bail it... i grabbed my pump and hooked my battery up to it like i always did. Afterwards she told me i took away her butch card by doing that. i suppose i was to let my boat sink so her so called pride could stay in tact? She said i kill her pride.

There was a butch on the forums somewhere that said she asks if a femme has long nails before they even start talking. i thought that was so sad.


The day i have to be someone else to validate my partner is a sad day indeed.

[justkim]

dee, thank you so much for this... all of it... I am many things... most of all NOT afraid to get dirty... so my friend you are not alone...
For me I have been told that because my hair was short/shorter that I wasn't femme enough... Yet, when I came out I was told because I wore makeup, heels, skirts, and had long nails I wasn't a lesbian. I wear heels, skirts, my nails are long, and my toes are polished... mind you there is so much more to me than those things I have listed. I can work most power tools and I am not afraid to pick up a hammer...
I hate labels... I don't want to feel like a can of soup that can be removed from the shelf, looked over and put back because I am not femme enough...
I hope I have made some kind of sense as I have yet to have a full cup of coffee...

Lets all take a moment to truly see the person in front of us, no matter how they id...




i can only speak for myself. i am a girl, a woman, a femme ... thats who i am. i didn't go out and find a label then try to conform to it. i am me and if there is a label out there fine i don't care, but i can't live up to someone expectations of what the label means.

i also like to play in the mud, catch, clean and cook my own fish, i want to drive my own boat thank you. i can change the oil in my truck and am very mechanically inclined. i fix things. i am just as comfy in overalls (sometimes i even wear a shirt with them) and workboots as i am in a sundress and sandals. i don't cater to long nails but my toes are well taken care of. i guess at tomboy at times, i've always been that.

WHen i left my job as a banking officer i ditched all of my dress up clothes and enjoyed a life of not having to deal with all of it. i love jeans, a nice shirt and boots, i cuss, i cut my hair off if it gets in the way.

i have been with butches who felt my being less than high femme was not acceptable. i will never forget the look on my exes face when she walked in and i had my hand in a fish's gut. She was horrified and said femmes just don't do those sorts of things.

i was told to get fingernails and wear more *feminine* clothes.

One day a butch was at my house visiting when it began to pour down raining. My boat was filling up with water... she went out to bail it... i grabbed my pump and hooked my battery up to it like i always did. Afterwards she told me i took away her butch card by doing that. i suppose i was to let my boat sink so her so called pride could stay in tact? She said i kill her pride.

There was a butch on the forums somewhere that said she asks if a femme has long nails before they even start talking. i thought that was so sad.


The day i have to be someone else to validate my partner is a sad day indeed.

[CherylNYC]

While I really enjoyed both Cajun Dee's and justkim's posts, and I understand that Dykumentary invited posts on femme experiences with body image, I think that these posts would be more appropriate in a different thread.

This is the Butch Zone. The OP started a really important conversation about butch body image. It seems that we femmes are far more experienced at discussing body image issues. It would be easy for us to overwhelm this thread, which is about a subject butches aren't often accustomed to addressing.

[girl_dee]

While I really enjoyed both Cajun Dee's and justkim's posts, and I understand that Dykumentary invited posts on femme experiences with body image, I think that these posts would be more appropriate in a different thread.

This is the Butch Zone. The OP started a really important conversation about butch body image. It seems that we femmes are far more experienced at discussing body image issues. It would be easy for us to overwhelm this thread, which is about a subject butches aren't often accustomed to addressing.

Femmes are more experienced at discussing body image issues? Maybe i didn't get that because it's not for me. i felt comfortable answering in this thread when i was asked to as this seemed like a pretty safe place to talk about a sensitive issue for me. i appreciated that. i know Kim pretty well and feel safe to say she felt the same way. She can correct me if i am wrong on that. I've share some of the same experiences as the butches that have posted so letting them know they aren't alone in the BF world felt like a good thing. If NOT, i surely do apologize. i hardly think speaking up, when asked by a butch about this subject constitutes overwhelming a thread.

[Turtle]

For me, it is quite present the depth to which people are hurt by being put out of community and/or told they are not a "proper ______" - fill in the blank.

I believe our lives are for us to figure out who we are and that we do that in relationship with other beings. In this society (of course this is a generalization), there is more rejection, judgement, and damage than in some other societies where people are kinder and view young people as spiritual beings to be nurtured into healthy adulthood.

In my life, I try to be present and really see people and value who they are because we are all in different places in the process of learning how to be better, more full and conscious beings and I believe we should be helping, not hurting, each other as best we can.

I believe identity formation, be it butch or femme or anything else, is central to who we are as human beings.

...even if we end up letting go of said identity later on...it's all part of the process of becoming a more full human being capable of loving ourselves and others.

When I had someone tell me at the age of 14 when I was in a wedding in a lovely dress - that I looked so grown up - I needed to figure out why that compliment bothered me. I decided that what bothered me was that I was the same person that Saturday as I was the Sunday before when they saw me and that seeing me in a dress had nothing to do with who I really was at the time. They were not really seeing or knowing me.

And without these types of incidents and without spending the time thinking about them I would not come to know who I am and what I think about things...and for that I am thankful.

[Toughy]

This is a thread about butch body image in the butch zone. There are plenty of threads in the femme zone about femme body issues. I promise if a couple of three butches posted about our body image in a femme thread (even if asked by a femme) all holy hell would break loose.

Please take your femme stuff to the femme threads. Thank you

[Okiebug61]

For me, it is quite present the depth to which people are hurt by being put out of community and/or told they are not a "proper ______" - fill in the blank.


Yes unfortunately humans can be downright mean. I think there are times when we think this community or others we have belonged to would be a safe haven. Not so true!

Clicks are everywhere including here. If you don't fit the click you don't fit. There are some who judge everyone by looks and looks only.

I find it a shame that anyone feels bad about who they are, how they id and how they think they have to look to fit in.

All of us no matter our ID come in all shapes and sizes and that is what makes us all so damn cool!

[Syr]

This is a thread about butch body image in the butch zone. There are plenty of threads in the femme zone about femme body issues. I promise if a couple of three butches posted about our body image in a femme thread (even if asked by a femme) all holy hell would break loose.

Please take your femme stuff to the femme threads. Thank you

Perhaps you should read back where the 'femmes' were asked for their opinion.

[Scuba]

Yes unfortunately humans can be downright mean. I think there are times when we think this community or others we have belonged to would be a safe haven. Not so true!

Clicks are everywhere including here. If you don't fit the click you don't fit. There are some who judge everyone by looks and looks only.

I find it a shame that anyone feels bad about who they are, how they id and how they think they have to look to fit in.

All of us no matter our ID come in all shapes and sizes and that is what makes us all so damn cool!

Agree. There is no escaping the herd mentality, not here, not in the real world of our real lives. The media feeds this ugly beast by simply indicating that we are "less than perfect" and that is NOT acceptable....

...IMHO

[Toughy]

Perhaps you should read back where the 'femmes' were asked for their opinion.

Is this necessary? Why would you assume I did not read the post by dykeumentary? Cheryl also addressed it.

I actually addressed that in my post only it was the reverse.....and I will repeat it: Even if asked by a femme.............ALL HELL would break loose if a butch posted about body image in a femme thread.

Could we please continue talking about butch body issues and not get side-tracked. Thank you.

---------------------------
I have always believed my comfort with my body came as a result of the strong women in my life and the fact masculine women (straight and lesbian) were not uncommon in the farm and ranch communities I was raised in. I had masculine women and feminine women to serve as role models for the different ways a woman can walk in this world. It certainly was a blessing.

My maternal grandmother was the first to address my masculinity and sexual orientation when I was about 11-12yrs old. Grandmother was a dancing fool and spent many a saturday night at the shit kicker bar dancing with cowboys. She told me a story about this woman who went dancing with her crowd of friends. It seems this woman wore a suit and tie and always only danced (and lead) with other women. She said it was just fine and that this woman was a great dancer.

That is just one story.....out of many others.

My mother is the one who taught me to open doors, hold coats, and do all that good manners, how to treat a lady stuff. She taught me by example and how she insisted my Dad treat her. I remember her sitting in the car one day waiting for my Dad to come back outside and open her car door. He forgot to do that.....I tried to open her door and she barked at me and said NO that is your father's job. I went in the house and told Daddy he best go open her car door.....He kinda gasped and ran out the door and opened her car door. My mother was a role model.

[Turtle]

Things happen in our lives and we think, "I'll never do THAT again" or "I sure want to do that better." We learn from others - good and bad.

I seek to heal, to leave the world a better place, to bridge communities, to apologize when I screw up, to love wherever I can, to welcome into community - I always have an empty chair in the circle to be welcoming of all comers...

I am responsible for the way I behave and I do not choose to tell people to leave because I know I would be told to leave "their" place. How we learn from each other's identity place is relevant.

Once upon a time, I was in a bar playing a video game with an older man. I was winning. He didn't take it very well. I lost on purpose, then I felt shitty about it and swore to my self that I would never have my femaleness defer to a maleness like that again. This is some of how I have learned to be me.

And no, I don't think someone should let their boat flood and sink to protect some dipshit's butch "pride," just like I'm not not ever gonna lose on purpose for somebody else's fragile ego again.

Do I want to talk about zebras in a car thread - no. But identity formation, figuring out who we are and how we move in the world is complicated with a lot of overlapping areas...and some people might even do some "switching" in the navigating of who and how they want to be when.

And I'm up for the discussion of that and all it entails.

[Okiebug61]

Has anyone read any of the works by Esther Newton. I find her to be wonderfully honest and intellectually stimulating. She has written articles about being butch and the body image issues. She is not afraid to put controversial things in writing so you have to have a very open mind into her definitions.

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/women/faculty/facbio.asp?ID=43

[Scuba]

Has anyone read any of the works by Esther Newton. I find her to be wonderfully honest and intellectually stimulating. She has written articles about being butch and the body image issues. She is not afraid to put controversial things in writing so you have to have a very open mind into her definitions.

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/women/faculty/facbio.asp?ID=43

No but thanks for the information. I'll be sure to check it out.

[ScandalAndy]

Has anyone read any of the works by Esther Newton. I find her to be wonderfully honest and intellectually stimulating. She has written articles about being butch and the body image issues. She is not afraid to put controversial things in writing so you have to have a very open mind into her definitions.

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/women/faculty/facbio.asp?ID=43

She was my intro to gay & lesbian studies and Gay & Lesbian studies Jr/Sr seminar professor. She wears her butch identity with pride every day and is DEFINITELY not afraid to speak out against things she does not agree with and find oppressive. She and I use different definitions of "butch", and we butted heads from time to time (I was butch presenting when I took her lectures), but her knowledge and conviction is astounding. She presented some interesting thoughts on being butch and aging, too.

[StoneOne]

I will read on I have felt and tried to deal with all of this and it feels good to talk about it...........

[StoneOne]

talked about the bathroom issues ?
Good God I walk into any public bathroom and everyone stops and stares then they go look to see what the sign says thinking they walked into the wrong room and then I get Syr your in the wrong bathroom not sure what to do with this or how to feel or just feel nothing at all............... OMG it is sometimes funny to see the group of women stuck in their footsteps bogged .......
can I just say I'm sexy and I know it LMAO the m&m ad

[Heavenleahangel]

talked about the bathroom issues ?
Good God I walk into any public bathroom and everyone stops and stares then they go look to see what the sign says thinking they walked into the wrong room and then I get Syr your in the wrong bathroom not sure what to do with this or how to feel or just feel nothing at all............... OMG it is sometimes funny to see the group of women stuck in their footsteps bogged .......
can I just say I'm sexy and I know it LMAO the m&m ad

I have been in this same situation when I was with my ex. When we went out, hy avoided the restrooms at all cost, except Wal-Mart which has the "family restroom" in the back. Of course then I had to remind the pervert the family restroom is not for *trying to create a family*!!!! :tease: Hy always had that devilish grin that sait "It didn't hurt to try!"

[Okiebug61]

talked about the bathroom issues ?
Good God I walk into any public bathroom and everyone stops and stares then they go look to see what the sign says thinking they walked into the wrong room and then I get Syr your in the wrong bathroom not sure what to do with this or how to feel or just feel nothing at all............... OMG it is sometimes funny to see the group of women stuck in their footsteps bogged .......
can I just say I'm sexy and I know it LMAO the m&m ad

I'm sorry you are being stereo typed. A new trend we have here in Oklahoma which I am sure is not a first is family bathrooms. I love it. It truly helps those who do not fit the worlds view of men and women have an option where going to the freaking bathroom is not such an issue. I frankly am more worried about a clean stall than who is using it.

[StoneOne]

I'm sorry you are being stereo typed. A new trend we have here in Oklahoma which I am sure is not a first is family bathrooms. I love it. It truly helps those who do not fit the worlds view of men and women have an option where going to the freaking bathroom is not such an issue. I frankly am more worried about a clean stall than who is using it.

I would give anything for a butch restroom ... as we change everyday becoming who we are suppose to be it gets harder to be part of the "public" vision . I could pass enough to use the mens restroom but ......that really does not feel right. I have not seen the family restroom as of yet but I will keep my eyes open. My guess is the "public" may view it as the mom with 5 kids and that would be a sight to see lmao as I go into use the restroom and there are 3 familys 14 kids saying mom why is that man in here?? Thanks for having my back on the stereotyped

[StoneOne]

weird is using the restroom at work.................

[clay]

I would give anything for a butch restroom ... as we change everyday becoming who we are suppose to be it gets harder to be part of the "public" vision . I could pass enough to use the mens restroom but ......that really does not feel right. I have not seen the family restroom as of yet but I will keep my eyes open. My guess is the "public" may view it as the mom with 5 kids and that would be a sight to see lmao as I go into use the restroom and there are 3 familys 14 kids saying mom why is that man in here?? Thanks for having my back on the stereotyped

this isuue does have its humor....at times...may as well see the sunny side of it, right? in SC there are also the "family" BR's. They generally only have two adult sized toilets and a smaller kiddie size toilet. So is only for one "family" use at a time..no room for 14 at once..lol..GA and Fla has them, and the rest areas along I 95 as well..they are awesome, and much cleaner! The ones here have kids' artworks on the tiles on walls and around toilets! They have a low sink and hand dryer for them...so Okie they are out there...and actually pretty clean. The truck stops with the restaurants have them...so are relaly clean for most part.

[ruffryder]

I mostly use the guys rest room. They give a shit less.. Ha ha! <not what I meant>
Less looks. Just shows guys don't really care whats all around them. Get in, do the damn business, get out. Should be that simple. Maybe its a good thing women are aware of their surroundings? ..with freaks in this world such as peeping toms..when I do choose womens restroom I do tend to get looks, people looking to make sure its womens room, someone saying excuse me you're in the wrong room, blah, blah, blah.. Be nice to have Trans restrooms I guess. I adore the ones with no female/male sign.

[Turtle]

...that over the years I have spoken with plenty of people who dramatically changed their personal presentation to the world (or in their home) at some time or another....and some have changed how they present many times.

For me, I so always felt like a boy when I was young, knew I wasn't a boy, wanted to be a boy, and did the best I could in my circumstance....I can hardly imagine what would have been different if I had gotten those tighty-whiteys and black high-tops ;-)

And as life went on and I made sense of things or rejected them I grew into the new a different me.

And I still am...

...this granbaby thing has kinda fucked with how male I feel. "Granpa" does not feel right, "granma" does...I am still working on making peace with that.

BUTCH? FEMME? I am definitely butch. I am definitely not femme. The rest of me is up for discussion...I like hearing ideas that are different and often better than mine - for me, it is not a crime to change my mind about something.

Some folks have told me they would like to post here and that they don't want to get jumped on. I sure wish people would feel like they can express their thoughts constructively here without fear of criticism.

[Okiebug61]

... Some folks have told me they would like to post here and that they don't want to get jumped on. I sure wish people would feel like they can express their thoughts constructively here without fear of criticism.

I think whomever is wanting to post should do so. Each of our thoughts and ideas bring something different to the table. We will never all agree but dang it no one should feel threatened because of bully attitudes. So tell your folks to come over and participate in the conversation. I for one want to hear what they have to say.

[ButchEire]

My reaction to anyone who questions my presence in any restroom is to look them in the eye and say "excuse me?" My not-so-hidden meaning is to infer "Really? You have all the time in the world to worry about who is in the restroom?" After many years of ME getting embarrassed when I was younger, I decided that if someone indeed DID walk into the wrong restroom, who gives a f**k? Restrooms are there to get your business done and get out, not to socialize. Clearly also, it's UNLIKELY that someone would venture into the "wrong" restroom, so people are getting caught up in something that isn't probable.

[Parker]

Yeah, I dont give a fuck about people staring at me in the bathrooms anymore either. Hell, I have had women physically try to keep me out of the bathroom, thinking I was a man (I was about to offer to show her my tits when she realized her mistake and let me pass). Usually, I just ignore everyone, do my thing, and get out; but if they want to stare at me, I'll stare right back - after a pretty obvious look down at my rather large breasts for effect.

I am not male ID'd or trans &/or trying to pass, so I wouldnt use the men's bathroom unless it was the only one available &/or it was some sort of a bathroom emergency .... I dont want to spend time in their stinky, nasty bathrooms unless I absolutely have to! :winky:


Oh, and speaking of family bathrooms, the VA here has women, men, and unisex bathrooms all over the place - I think in large places and newly built places it might start becoming the "norm."

[~ocean]

Us femmes have it soo easy , ((((((( hugs all of u butchs ))))))) :)


your bodys r measured by a tailor (tailorette ) and ur mind is measured by ur soul : the soul is endless..

[Queerasfck]

I am not male ID'd or trans &/or trying to pass, so I wouldnt use the men's bathroom unless it was the only one available &/or it was some sort of a bathroom emergency .... I dont want to spend time in their stinky, nasty bathrooms unless I absolutely have to! :winky:



I try to avoid the use of any public restroom whenever possible. I have to say I do believe women's restrooms can be just as nasty and unsanitary as men's restrooms.

[clay]

Us femmes have it soo easy , ((((((( hugs all of u butchs ))))))) :)


your bodys r measured by a tailor (tailorette ) and ur mind is measured by ur soul : the soul is endless..

(((((((((((ocean)))))))))))))
Thanks for the hug...and your words....

[apretty]

Us femmes have it soo easy , ((((((( hugs all of u butchs ))))))) :)


it's not easy being femme, it's different but not easy.

[Parker]

I try to avoid the use of any public restroom whenever possible. I have to say I do believe women's restrooms can be just as nasty and unsanitary as men's restrooms.

True - especially when they make a mess on the seat. :blink:

But to me, men's are just nastier - maybe bc they miss the bowl a lot & their mess ends up on the floor - not sure, just how it feels to me. Maybe I've just been around some nasty mens.

[ButchEire]

Always been the opposite in my experience. Women's bathrooms are much dirtier than men's. What's weird to me is that I get how men "miss" the toilet but can't figure out how women can't hit the two pointer,lol.



True - especially when they make a mess on the seat. :blink:

But to me, men's are just nastier - maybe bc they miss the bowl a lot & their mess ends up on the floor - not sure, just how it feels to me. Maybe I've just been around some nasty mens.

[girl_dee]

i personally like to take my butch into the same stall with me :)

[Parker]

What's weird to me is that I get how men "miss" the toilet but can't figure out how women can't hit the two pointer,lol.
LOL

Probably from hovering over the bowl so as to avoid touching the seat and catching imaginary diseases. :winky:

[Okiebug61]

The 2003 International Building Code requires that all new construction and substantial renovation for public restrooms include a family, or unisex, bathroom. Most new, large venues such as malls, airports, and sports arenas, now include at least one type unisex bathroom in addition to men's and women's public restrooms. But not all states have adopted the codes. Planning construction or renovation? Check your local public restroom regulations.

[Dude]

I have encountered many a scared woman confused by me.
Security has been called ,etc.

The bottom line is they are reacting from a fear place and really
who can blame them for that.
Yes, they might become rude with their non thought out reactions
when encountering some of us but we get to think about our reactions
to them. They are women in a place that most times feels safe to them.

Never has my reaction or response been to show them what I have under my shirt.

I guess reading that response over and over through the years bugs
the shit out of me.
I get the hurt and the anger of being questioned but I dont get the threat of
flashing tits or anything else as a well thought out response.
They are surprised by us but we get to think about it.
Cut them some fucking slack already.

speaking as someone who's done some janitorial
work in the past
all people have the ability to be equally disgusting.
and men are not the only sex who enjoy some reading material either:reader:

[Gemme]

LOL

Probably from hovering over the bowl so as to avoid touching the seat and catching imaginary diseases. :winky:


Not so imaginary things are able to be caught, however. I totally get the hovering, but really wish they'd just use the damn toilet seat cover or, if there's not one, put tissue on the seat.

All bathrooms that don't have an attendant are icky.

[CherylNYC]

Not so imaginary things are able to be caught, however. I totally get the hovering, but really wish they'd just use the damn toilet seat cover or, if there's not one, put tissue on the seat.

All bathrooms that don't have an attendant are icky.

A friend once caught ringworm from a toilet seat. Just sayin'.

My aim is true.

[Okiebug61]

I'm curious to know where those who have had trouble using a public restroom live. I am in the only totally Red State and while there are and always will be issues. I have never seen these vicious things happen. It's totally disturbing and if nothing else knowing the locations will help me keep an open eye if I ever visit any of the said locations.

[DapperButch]

Probably from hovering over the bowl so as to avoid touching the seat and catching imaginary diseases. :winky:


Not so imaginary things are able to be caught, however. I totally get the hovering, but really wish they'd just use the damn toilet seat cover or, if there's not one, put tissue on the seat.



"If you sprinkle when you tingle, please be neat and wipe the seat".

- Sign humorously posted in Dapper's grandmother's bathroom.

[Parker]

I'm curious to know where those who have had trouble using a public restroom live. I am in the only totally Red State and while there are and always will be issues. I have never seen these vicious things happen. It's totally disturbing and if nothing else knowing the locations will help me keep an open eye if I ever visit any of the said locations.

I dont think it's limited to any specific locations - I've lived in a lot of different states (IL, OK, CO, CA, MS, WA) and driven through even more on my way to one place or another and I've encountered everything from stares, to shocked looks while they check the sign on the door, to stopping their friend or security to say loudly that "there's a man in there", to saying something directly to me, to physically trying to keep me from entering.


Also, the urge to lift one's shirt in an effort to be seen as the woman that you are is a natural urge. Would I have really done it? No, of course not. But the urge is still there because I belong there just as much as any woman does - it's my space too; and the fact that it's considered a safe space for feminine looking women but not masculine looking women is sad to me. That's really all I had on that issue. :)

[girl_dee]

Not so imaginary things are able to be caught, however. I totally get the hovering, but really wish they'd just use the damn toilet seat cover or, if there's not one, put tissue on the seat.

All bathrooms that don't have an attendant are icky.

and what amazes me is the baby changing station. :|

Okie it doesn't matter where you are because narrow minded stupid people are everywhere. I've been with a butch twice when the bathroom thing happened.. once in Oregon and once in Alabama. Both times my partner was confronted by males who made snide comments about the butch being in the *wrong bathroom* as they exited or entered and in a completely confrontational manner.

[Okiebug61]

Okie it doesn't matter where you are because narrow minded stupid people are everywhere. I've been with a butch twice when the bathroom thing happened.. once in Oregon and once in Alabama. Both times my partner was confronted by males who made snide comments about the butch being in the *wrong bathroom* as they exited or entered and in a completely confrontational manner.


I was just curious. Being from Oklahoma we don't have a lot of positive things going on for our community. Red and I went see Melissa E a few years back and I saw more Lesbians in one place than I had seen in years. There were many hard core butches and I never once saw anyone having problems with the bathroom issue. Maybe I don't keep my eyes open well enough,for I would not stand by and let this happen If I were present. It just saddens me when someone has to be nervous, scared or anything else when they need to go to the bathroom.

[Dude]

I geuss for me, I dont take it so personal anymore.
Of course it's awkward and I'd prefer that it did not happen but
It's not really my issue how someone interprets my gender.
Showing someone proof of what I am is not a natural urge ,for me.

Let's say grandma and maybe your neice were in stalls 3 and 4 ,
someone enters bathroom who you read as male.
What would your response be to them?
Have I been offended and embaressed? yes ,of course
I had one lady peek over the stall even.

To me what is "totally disturbing" is being beaten because then
it is personal. I think it would be interesting to do a poll on the
areas in which this has happened to people.
I feel fortunate to have only once experienced some teenage
kids screaming queers out their window while walking with a girlfriend
down the street 20 years ago.

[apretty]

...I belong there just as much as any woman does - it's my space too; and the fact that it's considered a safe space for feminine looking women but not masculine looking women is sad to me...


I don't think public restrooms are designated or designed as a safe space--In most cases they're designed to satisfy building codes and to be a place to relieve yourself as quickly as possible.

[Parker]

I don't think public restrooms are designated or designed as a safe space--In most cases they're designed to satisfy building codes and to be a place to relieve yourself as quickly as possible.

I understand that - I was working off of & responding to the post that mentioned that - I probably should have quoted it but was being lazy. :)

[Toughy]

Like Okie if I am in NM or TX or OK or any of the ranch country I rarely get called Sir and rarely get the 'OMG a man is in our potty room'. I think the ques for woman are different in farm/ranch land......lots of masculine women who are straight in those parts of the world. Seeing a woman in work boots, cowboy boots, jeans, hats is not unusual.

Years back, I was in an airport and went into the ladies room. This woman followed me in yelling at me that this was the women's bathroom. I just ignored her and went into a stall. She started banging on the door to the stall................serious folks.....she started banging on the door. The banging stopped, I finished and washed my hands and went out the door. Well, a security guard was standing outside the door with this woman. He looked at me and asked why I went in the ladies room. I looked at him and said that I belonged in that bathroom and walked off. At least he didn't follow me after that. On the trip back in that same airport I went in the same ladies room and some woman looked at me and told me I was in the wrong bathroom. I looked at her and pulled up my shirt and showed her my tits (I haven't worn a bra since high school). she turned about 100 shades of red and started apologizing. I ignored her and did my business and left.

I get it once in a while at the VA, but it's usually if someone sees me from behind and when I turn around they apologize. Military folks also seem to have a different set of ques for women and are not likely to mistake me for a man.

I always wonder if they think I can't read and recognize the sign for women vs men. It never has made any sense to me. And if I am already in there...it's like I know the difference between the mens room and the ladies room............mens potty has urinals and the womens does not.

As to safety..............oh please it's a damn bathroom and what about MY safety to be able to walk in a bathroom without all that crap.

anyway.....I'm rambling..........

[DapperButch]

"If you sprinkle when you tingle, please be neat and wipe the seat".

- Sign humorously posted in Dapper's grandmother's bathroom.

Ooops! I meant tinkle! (thanks Ezee).

[Jess]

I always wonder why every conversation regarding being butch and self image goes to the toilet. :twitch:

I think at least for me, because it is that one place out in the world that constantly reminds me of just how "different" I am from "most" women. My hair is different.. my clothes are different, my demeanor is definitely different and it is a rarity that it is not pointed out to me when I step into a multi-stalled bathroom.

My struggles with body image started so early on that I can't even pinpoint when or how it began. My mom tells me of my crying myself to sleep when I was three because I couldn't pee out of my belly button. Apparently I saw my dad standing up to pee and thought that must be how you do it.

I have body dysphoria/ gender dysphoria in that I truly have a disconnect in "loving" the package I came in. It is a hard thing to describe as I don't necessarily want to change genders, I just don't deal well with the "norms" society has placed on mine. I am a masculine entity, no doubt and being in a visually female shell has been a very interesting thing to say the least.

I struggle with my size at times. I have a small frame and for many being small is equated to being weak. Many only view larger butches as "real" butches. For some , yes, size does matter.. LOL. It's hard to bulk up as the female body distributes weight differently and requires much more focused exercise to put mass in the "right" areas. Well, frankly, I am getting older and unless a miracle happens, that just isn't gonna work. I am by no means a weak person and I know this clearly. However, when it comes down to "body image" , I can allow myself to buy into the BS a little too often.

I am learning not to compare myself in the negative. I am learning to look at other butches clearly and when I do compare it is about internal issues. It is about whether or not they exemplify traits I respect or not. This is how I am seeing role models or folks I want to avoid. I tend to keep people at arms length and am trying to allow a few more in. Slowly and very selectively. I am reading people on different levels than I have in the past and am able to see beyond whatever facades or armor we put up and that is how I am seeing myself more clearly. I am not ready to put down my own shields.. and honestly, I know that only a handful of people will ever truly "know" me or my struggles. my insecurities.. or my true strengths.

I am not sure how many other butches feel similar, but I know for me it can be a painfully lonely path at times. It can also be an incredible journey living this life in the body we were given and helping other folks see beyond it. It is fraught with obstacles almost daily. I just keep moving through them. I hope everyone else does too. I know we have lost so many butch women to depression, angst, suicide, isolation and it breaks my heart. There are times when the world gets really ugly and all we can do is look to one another for the encouragement to keep on keeping on. I hope to be that encouragement.

Thanks for the topic.

[Jett]

I am highly "butch" (adjective) on the inside, always have been. I am also highly woman on the inside... and the flow of the two feels seamless to me dawn to dusk. On the outside I have my happy places, which may include a suit or tux- in addition to my long hair and makeup. I have a wicked hourglass figure that I hide in no way... it's just the way it is, I like it. I don't do cutesy, frilly or dresses though, guess it's just not my thing.

None of it feels like drag for me, or off limits... I just do what feels right. I spent most of my life under the pressure of others expectations, including my own... and I have to say now is screw it all cause I'm free, and it feels like friggen Nirvana...

No matter what you do... somebody's not going to be happy with it... so you might as well make yourself happy and well then after that... who the hell cares?

[tara_kerrie]

This is a great thread for me. I am currently looking for myself and my place in this world. I thought that I had found myself but I was wrong.
I think of myself as a "butch" but there are many "doubts" right now.
I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on this matter and look forward to reading more.

[Just_G]

One of the biggest things I struggle with is the fact that people keep telling me to love myself, love who I am, I am okay just the way I am, be myself.....etc....blah! I love my personality, humor, integrity, work ethic.....you name it...I love a LOT of things about me, but to be really honest, I do not like the physical me one bit!

I know that some of you will know what I am trying to say when I say that it is so fucking hard to put in to words what a struggle it is internally...(let alone externally; the way the whole world sees you) to have to deal with insides matching outsides. I see myself one way in the mirror...which I try to avoid as much as possible....and when I see myself in pictures, I cringe. I do not like the way I look female...body wise. This has been so fucking hard as I have been out having to buy a whole new wardrobe for my new job in a very conservative company. Finding pants in my size with my inseam has been HORRIBLE! Thank God my mom sews and can hem all of them for me!

This clothes shopping experience has been so fucking disasterous.

Cheech and I were talking the other day about binding and how it all bunches up in the middle, making a bump in the middle of our chest, and how uncomfortable we always feel in our own bodies. I think if the insurance companies would help pay for some of the body modification things we want to have done, they wouldn't have to pay so much for anti-depressants because of people's body issues!

I am not depressed, just really fucking frustrated. I do not like my body one bit, but have learned to adapt and be content.

People can tell me til they are blue in the face how they see me or how to feel because they like the way I look, but it doesn't help. I do not like the way I look. (and this is not even a weight issue...this is just all "female body" stuff....blech!)

Sometimes when I am shopping, I feel like I am a kid shopping in the grown up department because my arms and legs are so short to be fitting in men's clothes...it sucks ass man!

[tara_kerrie]

I totally understand amd relate to what you are saying G. Since i have gained so much weight i see myself as a fat ugly blob that isnt good enough to be with anyone. I absolutely HATE shopping for new clothes.

[Just_G]

I totally understand amd relate to what you are saying G. Since i have gained so much weight i see myself as a fat ugly blob that isnt good enough to be with anyone. I absolutely HATE shopping for new clothes.

Kerrie, do me a favor, tell me something about yourself that you love.

I came off kind of negative in my post above, and I wish I would have worded some of that differently.

You see, I am one of the most positive people on this earth. (which from my post above, it doesn't sound like it....but I do have a couple of things that get me down...I just don't focus on them) I really try to find the good things when I don't feel so hot about myself. For example: I have 2 arms and 2 legs that function and I am a healthy person over all....I am truly blessed!! I don't take that for granted. I might struggle with body issues and not like certain things, but I am beyond thankful that I am healthy and able bodied to get around and do things that a lot of people would kill to do! I know that some people wouldn't give a shit what they looked like, they would just be happy if they could walk or feed themselves or even just be able to get out of their bed. I am blessed. Period.

I don't focus on what I don't like...I focus on what I have and what I like about myself.

I am always saying to my friends: Find the good. I know I drive them nuts sometimes! :winky:

[tara_kerrie]

G...
The only thing that I can say that I love about myself at the moment is this:

I can love unconditionally. When I do love unconditionally, I love with everything that I am.

I am a good listener.

When I am in a relationship, my partner comes first ALWAYS.

Right now I am in too much pain to think about anything else that I love about myself.

I have no self-confidence at all.

There is one thing that I LOVE about my body...I have a GREAT ass.

I wish the boobs were gone and I wish I weighed about 40-50 pounds less than I do.

I wish I was stronger than what I am.

Those are the things that I like and dont like about myself.

[Just_G]

G...
The only thing that I can say that I love about myself at the moment is this:

I can love unconditionally. When I do love unconditionally, I love with everything that I am.

I am a good listener.

When I am in a relationship, my partner comes first ALWAYS.

Right now I am in too much pain to think about anything else that I love about myself.

I have no self-confidence at all.

There is one thing that I LOVE about my body...I have a GREAT ass.

I wish the boobs were gone and I wish I weighed about 40-50 pounds less than I do.

I wish I was stronger than what I am.

Those are the things that I like and dont like about myself.

Excellent! Thank you for replying back K!

You've got a big heart that is full of love!! You and I have that in common! :) My life coach told me last year that I need to become my own best friend. I was to quit with the negative self talk, and to tell those around me that if I did talk about myself in a negative way, that they were to kindly remind me that I shouldn't do that. Negative self talk brings us down even more and trying to correct it is a baby step in the right direction. In a positive direction. When you think something negative, over ride it by remembering something you like about yourself..something good.

I've met you, and I think that you are pretty cool...I loved talking to you at the Reunion and remember that you have a great sense of humor.

I think a lot of us wish we were X amount of pounds lighter, so I am sure several people reading this nodded their heads when reading that...I know I did. That is something I can do something about, but I know right now I am so busy that I can't put a lot of time in to it...but I have started to eat better and have quit gaining weight; now I will get my life in order and make the time to go walking every night to work on what I don't want.

Just one baby step in the right direction will do wonders for your self esteem...you just have to be patient and keep putting one foot in front of the other. You know the old saying: "Rome wasn't built in a day!" :winky:

If you want to get stronger, start with doing some push ups and lunges or squats...even if you just start off with 5 of each a day and add 5 more a few days later...you will gradually start feeling stronger..another way of baby stepping in the right direction.

You can do it...I have complete faith in you; as do a lot of people here! Remember that you have to be kind to yourself. :)

[Okiebug61]

I'm 50
I'm chunky
I'm gray
I'm achy
I'm almost as wrinkled as a pug in areas.
And by fucking god I love who I am where I am and have no issues with my body.

[AlexHunter]

Bringing the discussion back into the toilet... ;)

I have many experiences to share with regards to public restrooms.

I normally use the men's restroom. I feel like I belong there much more than I belong in the women's. I don't particularly feel like getting screamed at or slapped.

I didn't always use the men's restroom. When I got sick of knowing that using the women's restroom would become an event of ample magnitude, I decided to venture into the other.

The women's restroom smells like artificial flowers. The men's restroom smells like piss.

When I was eighteen, I walked out of the women's restroom. I inspired a man to walk in! Trolling, genderqueer style.

I had an argument once with a middle-aged woman who insisted I was in the wrong bathroom. I flashed her to shut her up.

I've been smacked a few times for being a "boy" or "a man" in the ladies' room.

I've been yelled at in fear and terror. I've had women shriek at me and ask, "What are you doing in here?! Get out!"

I've been called a predator.

I've heard women whisper things to each other at the sight of me.

I've gotten confused looks, but those were expected.

I was once told to dress more feminine after minding my own business because I scared some lady washing her hands. I was twenty. I told her to fuck off.

In the men's room, I get an occasional nod of the head like "hey man" at most.

I wonder... why do women feel the need to talk, look at themselves in the mirror, and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys? So what makes people so different out of the home? Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?

I was afraid to use the men's restroom because I was scared of being found out. I thought some big dude would kick my ass when he realized I was (biologically) female. That never happened. I started using the men's room out of frustration when I was twenty-one. Now, the only time I will use the ladies' room is if the men's is absolutely disgusting or completely occupied.

Recently, I went to IHOP with a few friends. We waited to be seated. I needed to pee. The one stall in the men's restroom was "out of order."

I really needed to pee, so I went into the ladies' room. It's ironic to feel like you're going to get assaulted, told off, or kicked out of the restroom that you "technically" belong in.

I braced myself and walked in. I pretended to have tunnel vision. As I was peeing, I realized a lady complained to management about me. Two managers walked inside. One asked the other, "Is there a man in here? Is it a man or a woman?" The other replied with, "I don't know, I haven't seen it."

When I walked out, one of the managers looked at me angrily and asked, "Sir! What are you doing in here?"

I said, "It's cool, I'm a woman."

She yelled at me for lying, so I pulled out my driver's license, pointed to the "F," and walked out.

[musicman]

I try not to use public restrooms, I make sure if I know I am going out, that I don't drink anything before leaving the house. If there are no washrooms where either sex can use I make sure that my partner comes with me. I make sure that as we step into the ladies room that my partner is talking to me. For me this lets the women in the washroom know 1. this person knows me 2. that I am in the right washroom.

I will NEVER walk into a ladies washroom without a female friend or my partner. Been there, done that and don't have the patience for the looks and snide remarks.

[boobookitty]

I wonder... why do women feel the need to talk, look at themselves in the mirror, and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys? So what makes people so different out of the home? Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?


just incase anyone really wants to know--

...why do women feel the need to talk, -- it helps them suss out their place in the pecking order. and who they might need to be afraid of.

...look at themselves in the mirror, -- females (the girly types) are trained to do this, their sense of self worth is tied to it.

...and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? -- fear based, they worry if someone is a possible threat, they worry if someone else is sick (and possibly contagious )/ or might need help, they worry if a child is being treated correctly, they worry if their child is safe...

Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys?

...most likely not, but home is way safer...

So what makes people so different out of the home?
...fear

Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?
...all of the above,

[CherylNYC]

Bringing the discussion back into the toilet... ;)

I wonder... why do women feel the need to talk, look at themselves in the mirror, and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys? So what makes people so different out of the home? Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?

.

Alex, because I'm not butch I can't know what you go through, but you can't know what I go through either. Why do we worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Because it's a place where we're in a vulnerable position with our pants down. Because if a man does deliberatly come into the women's room, he probably does have nefarious intent. Have women been assaulted by men in the bathroom? You bet. It once happened to a woman at one of my jobsites, and there was another recent case here in NYC. That one was particularly violent. I personally witnessed a young man stalk into the women's locker room so he could physically assault a woman he knew. Yes, the men really were predators.

Not looking hard enough to really see you is inexcusable. Harrassing and intimidating you out of the bathroom where you should belong is inexcusable. Women worrying about their person safety in the bathroom? I'll stop worrying when men stop assaulting women.

[Gemme]

I wonder... why do women feel the need to talk, look at themselves in the mirror, and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys? So what makes people so different out of the home? Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?

I braced myself and walked in. I pretended to have tunnel vision. As I was peeing, I realized a lady complained to management about me. Two managers walked inside. One asked the other, "Is there a man in here? Is it a man or a woman?" The other replied with, "I don't know, I haven't seen it."



It??? Fucking IT???

People suck to the nth degree.

just incase anyone really wants to know--

...why do women feel the need to talk, -- it helps them suss out their place in the pecking order. and who they might need to be afraid of.

...look at themselves in the mirror, -- females (the girly types) are trained to do this, their sense of self worth is tied to it.

...and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? -- fear based, they worry if someone is a possible threat, they worry if someone else is sick (and possibly contagious )/ or might need help, they worry if a child is being treated correctly, they worry if their child is safe...

Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys?

...most likely not, but home is way safer...

So what makes people so different out of the home?
...fear

Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?
...all of the above,

Actually, I look in the mirror more to make sure I don't have a bat in the cave or spinach in my teeth more than anything. I don't care how smart or how pretty someone is, if they have one of the following, I'm going to have to try hard not to laugh. Because I have a 12 boy inside me that tends to laugh at that stuff.

I will assess the space when I initially walk in and before I leave for safety's sake. If my Spidey sense goes off, I leave. Immediately.


Alex, because I'm not butch I can't know what you go through, but you can't know what I go through either. Why do we worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Because it's a place where we're in a vulnerable position with our pants down. Because if a man does deliberatly come into the women's room, he probably does have nefarious intent. Have women been assaulted by men in the bathroom? You bet. It once happened to a woman at one of my jobsites, and there was another recent case here in NYC. That one was particularly violent. I personally witnessed a young man stalk into the women's locker room so he could physically assault a woman he knew. Yes, the men really were predators.

Not looking hard enough to really see you is inexcusable. Harrassing and intimidating you out of the bathroom where you should belong is inexcusable. Women worrying about their person safety in the bathroom? I'll stop worrying when men stop assaulting women.

Bathrooms are like traps. Enclosed. One exit. Not much room to maneuver should a fight occur. Safety's definitely a concern.

[Novelafemme]

Alex, because I'm not butch I can't know what you go through, but you can't know what I go through either. Why do we worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Because it's a place where we're in a vulnerable position with our pants down. Because if a man does deliberatly come into the women's room, he probably does have nefarious intent. Have women been assaulted by men in the bathroom? You bet. It once happened to a woman at one of my jobsites, and there was another recent case here in NYC. That one was particularly violent. I personally witnessed a young man stalk into the women's locker room so he could physically assault a woman he knew. Yes, the men really were predators.

Not looking hard enough to really see you is inexcusable. Harrassing and intimidating you out of the bathroom where you should belong is inexcusable. Women worrying about their person safety in the bathroom? I'll stop worrying when men stop assaulting women.

Yes! Exactly, Cheryl!

I am uber laxidazical at home and really don't ever double check things, but when I enter a public restroom ALL senses are on over-drive. I scan the floor and make a mental note of how many pairs of feet I see. I look in the mirror so I can get a better view of each stall, which doors are closed, etc. When I was around 10 there was a series of rapes happening at a local Denny's Restaurant. The victims were all young girls my age and Denny's was a restaurant my family frequented regularly since it was affordable for a large family such as ours. I remember being so scared that if I had to pee I would hold it until we got home. Then when we first moved to Tucson a man was stalking women at our local community college. He would hide in the restroom, standing on the toilet tank, and when there was only one woman there he would attack. He was finally caught but it really shook up our community.

On another note, since I have only ever been partnered with very butch women, I always accompany them to the restroom when we are out in public. From my personal experience, a smile, direct eye contact, and a hearty, "you doing ok?" defuses the situation almost immediately. And if you ever need a femme friend to accompany you, just grab me and off we'll go. :) Just last week at Target a gender ambiguous person was standing outside of the ladies bathroom looking absolutely terrified. As I approached to go in I smiled and asked my usual, "how are you doing?" and she smiled and said "I guess I'm ok." I asked if she wanted to walk in before me and she looked SO relieved and said yes.

So, as frustrated as I am for you guys, please know that for me it is about my personal safety. I am very trusting of just about everyone but I will admit that bio men have to work a little bit harder to earn that trust.

[sarahwho]

The 2003 International Building Code requires that all new construction and substantial renovation for public restrooms include a family, or unisex, bathroom. Most new, large venues such as malls, airports, and sports arenas, now include at least one type unisex bathroom in addition to men's and women's public restrooms. But not all states have adopted the codes. Planning construction or renovation? Check your local public restroom regulations.

You boi's can come into ANY bathroom I'm in! No really! :eyebat:

[MrSunshine]

I have found that having had an arm cut off was less painful than using a public restroom.
It's only pain, you get use to it.

[StoneOne]

not to I guess when the courts change it and I dont answer they will get it..... but what do u call them when I'm called "IT"

[Morgan]

When I walk into a women's restroom, I find myself feeling very awkward....I get double takes and outright stares. Some kids will say "mommy is that a boy or a girl"? And the parents, embarased usually will tell their kids to "shhhhhh"...
At the gym it is even more awkward, as the showers and dressing area is open and women are in there changing. I avoid eye contact or looking over in that direction.
Is this just me or do other butches feel the same? I avoid public restrooms as much as possible and if I see a private family restroom I will use that instead.
Lately at the gym while lifting, usually more than most guys there....I get a few stares, today I got some comments and they started talking about their male genitilia. I actually was called a "freak" today....under there breath of course. Like I didn't know, makes me smirk even more and feel a little smug, jealousy....hmmmm, yep think so.

[Corkey]

not to I guess when the courts change it and I dont answer they will get it..... but what do u call them when I'm called "IT"



Ignorant jackass would be my guess.

[Metro]

Thought I'd share a positive experience or two... by way of background, being called "Sir" is not an uncommon occurrence for me. I do not "pass" as straight and ID both as butch lesbian and female -- presenting a masculine style of dress, hair style and facial structure.

This morning, like many a Saturday, I took a trip to my neighborhood Homo Depot. Upon entering I sighted an employee, clad in the HD neon orange apron, and walked in his direction to ask a question. When I approached and got close enough to speak he immediately smiled and asked "May I help you, Sir?". I responded with an extended silent pause and a very big smile. A look of surprise flashed across his face as he recognized that I was not male -- almost simultaneously he corrected himself (with a quick apology) -- and was, in fact, quite helpful and pleasant throughout the remainder of our exchange.

In another recent situation... I was in an unfamiliar shopping/parking structure downtown one evening just before the shopping part of it was due to close for the night. Didn't know where to get my parking stub validated or what the minimum purchase would be to get the validation/discount (which can be substantial in downtown Chicago on a Saturday night). I found a coffee/bakery kiosk on the ground floor and walked up with a smile on my face, asked the dude working it how he was doing, then proceeded to ask what the minimum purchase was for parking validation. Without hesitation he said he was fine, thanks, and extended his hand offering me a parking validation pass, saying -- it was on him tonight. That was nice. And all I did was be courteous and smile.

Over the years I have learned not to underestimate the power of a simple smile, and at times, the addition of a hand shake when greeting a stranger. In my experience, these simple gestures set a tone that often engenders, at the very least, cooperation and respectful conversation.

:thumbsup:

[AlexHunter]

I've been meaning to come back around and reply to this thread.

I have been called "it" more times than I can count throughout my life. I find it very disrespectful to have my humanity discredited like that.

I noticed some of you mentioned insecurities about not being big enough. Count me in with that one. While I am somewhat tall (between 5'7" and 5'8"), I am also somewhat slim. I do have broad shoulders and a little bit of muscle, but most people just say I am small/skinny/etc. I don't like that. I don't want people assuming I am weak or believing I am in any way scrawny.

In my mind, I'm big (in the buff way) and hulked to hell. ;) At the same time, I accept my body for what it is. I'm healthy, in shape, and actually quite strong. I think it is human nature to want what you do not have or to desire to be "better." I have attempted to gain muscle weight and been successful at it, but getting any further than where I've gotten requires an extent of dedication that I honestly don't have at this point.

At the same time, I feel I have no right to complain about this because I know too many people who would probably slaughter a small country to be "naturally thin."

With regards to smiling, yes, everyone likes a smile... and it took me awhile to like my own. My smile is very feminine and has "given me away" before. During more dysphoric periods of my life, I refused to smile in pictures entirely because I thought it made me look female.

My friends kept telling me what a nice smile I had and encouraged me to smile more. I eventually decided they were right. :)

[Okiebug61]

I try not to use public restrooms, I make sure if I know I am going out, that I don't drink anything before leaving the house. If there are no washrooms where either sex can use I make sure that my partner comes with me. I make sure that as we step into the ladies room that my partner is talking to me. For me this lets the women in the washroom know 1. this person knows me 2. that I am in the right washroom.

I will NEVER walk into a ladies washroom without a female friend or my partner. Been there, done that and don't have the patience for the looks and snide remarks.

I am so sorry you have to go through this. I thought Canada was much more accepting.

[Ginger]

When I first met my partner, she kept repeating "but I am NOT a butch!" Yeah right. I could FEEL the butch, male energy rolling off of her. 'Bout knocked me over! It was how she walked (she had the swagger going on), how she talked, how she sat, how she dressed... yes it was all of that, but damnit it was WAAY more than that! It came from within her. It was a palpable aura and energy that was just HER. And the femme in ME, the woman in me who has loved on and lusted over butch women for most of my life, woke up, became ALIVE again. Skin-pricklies going on. Breath-catching going on. That inner recognition in ME, recognizing and connecting with the butch energy in HER, THAT is what caught me. Would I have had the same reaction if she had red fingernails or was wearing a dress? If her butch energy was strong enough, it might have triggered something in me. Don't know. I do know that for me, the outer package is just part of it. I need and desire and connect with and give myself to that butch energy. My femme wants to dance the dance with that butch energy.


I know what you're saying I think, in terms of falling in love with a butch-appearing and acting woman who doesn't identify as butch. Looking back on why I fell so hard for someone like that, I realize it was because her sexual energy expressed in a dominating way that I was drawn to, and of course, our emotional connection was strong; I'd never met anyone so gentle, brilliant and focused on me.

When things started to go bad, it wasn't because of the ways we ID, though I've wondered if a little b/f dynamic might not have helped us through some of the hard times.

*****************

Lately I've realized that one thing I love about women who ID as butch is their sense of humor about their differences from femmes or more feminine women. Also, they see what is femme in me, in a more positive light than a non-butch woman would.

Just talking about my own experience, of course. It sounds like your experience, ArkansasPiscesGrrl, has been really positive.

[Little Fish]

IslandScout:
Lately I've realized that one thing I love about women who ID as butch is their sense of humor about their differences from femmes or more feminine women. Also, they see what is femme in me, in a more positive light than a non-butch woman would.

Scout,
I've been thinking about this since you wrote it. I've realized more recently in my life that while I am eternally attracted to feminine women, it's really the femme ID'd woman who understands me as Butch in a way that the non-Femme (but feminine women) do not. A woman the who really "owns" her Femme title, is the one to really "own" me....;-)

(see what I did there? lol--I tried to pull that off with a straight face but no....*smirking*)

[Ginger]

IslandScout:
Lately I've realized that one thing I love about women who ID as butch is their sense of humor about their differences from femmes or more feminine women. Also, they see what is femme in me, in a more positive light than a non-butch woman would.

Scout,
I've been thinking about this since you wrote it. I've realized more recently in my life that while I am eternally attracted to feminine women, it's really the femme ID'd woman who understands me as Butch in a way that the non-Femme (but feminine women) do not. A woman the who really "owns" her Femme title, is the one to really "own" me....;-)

(see what I did there? lol--I tried to pull that off with a straight face but no....*smirking*)


Dear Little Fish,

Thanks for that glimpse of how your mind works ;)

Clearly, I have much to learn about the butch sense of humor—thankfully, though, I am a quick study, or so I've been told.

Sincerely,

Scout

[mr.misnomer]

i'm new to the planet. hope nobody minds if i drop in here.

i've read a good bit of back and forth on self love and acceptance, on body concerns, and public response to the way many of us masculine/butch types appear. i don't have any wisdom to impart on any of these topics. i can only share my experience.

for me, accepting my body has been a thing that i've had to do more than once. as i age, my body changes, and my feelings about it change. as i age, and my perspective changes, my feelings about my place in the world change. and, honestly, as i age, the public (in general) seems a little more accepting (or, maybe i'm getting better at ignoring them ;). the only thing that stays constant is that, like that person you know/knew that's in a 'bad' relationship but can't/won't get out until they see it for what it is and see that their worth is greater than that relationship....you have to be in a place to see yourself as someone you like/love/accept and then put it to work for you. nobody can do it for you, no one can make you love yourself, nobody can change the way the world treats you...its about what you do with what you've got.

at the end of the day, i'm glad i'm gay. i'm glad i'm butch. i feel fortunate to live in a time and place when/where its a helluva lot easier to be all of these things than it was pre-stonewall. i try to focus on the up sides....makes all of life a little bit sweeter.

cheers!
mr. m

[Ginger]

[QUOTE=mr.misnomer;599777

for me, accepting my body has been a thing that i've had to do more than once. as i age, my body changes, and my feelings about it change. as i age, and my perspective changes, my feelings about my place in the world change. and, honestly, as i age, the public (in general) seems a little more accepting (or, maybe i'm getting better at ignoring them ;). [/QUOTE]



Dear Mr. M,

You bring up an interesting point, which is, how does aging affect the culture's level of acceptance of people, like butches, who present in ways that are not hetero-normative?

I wonder if you are on to something; if there is indeed more acceptance of butches once they reach a certain age.

I think it might be the opposite for femmes—we become more invisible, and are devalued because of our age.

Anyway, thanks for putting your thoughts out there.

Welcome to the Planet!

Scout

[~ocean]

thers nothing invisable about a confident aging butch w. grey o r slightly greying hair .. makes this femme swoon :)

[Okiebug61]

I wonder who's thoughts on image some us worry about. Is it our own or what we want others to think of us. I'm a light butch and as I said before. For the most of my life I have only been picked out of a crowd by someone who is LGBT and very seldom by a straight person. The image I have of myself is I am who I am, the lovers/girlfriends/partners I have have had never questioned my image (or if they did they never told me) and I it has never been requested by anyone I have been with to look or act a certain way. It has always bothered me that society has such a stronghold on what a girl or boy should act or look like. Screw society and their hegemonic attitudes.

We own our lives and we have the right to dress as we want, cut our hair as we want, present ourselves as we want without being ridiculed.

Admiration to those of you who live outside the box and fight for the rights to be who you are without conceding to societies definitions.

[Ginger]

Okiebug wrote:

I wonder who's thoughts on image some us worry about. Is it our own or what we want others to think of us... Screw society and their hegemonic attitudes.


That kinda sums it up.
:)
Scout

[StoneOne]

of friends and family and people I dont know making judgements and statements about how I look and dress, my facial hair, how I carry myselt, T , Top surgery . I am who I am and finally walking the path I should have years ago (more than I care to admit) Please dont make me be a ass and back up your bus I have had enough.
Is not my intent to be rude so I am sorry if I offend anyone but man it feels good to say out loud.
The higher power does not make mistakes and here I am so deal with it and I wont judge you all.
Thank You
ps
:daddy::onebutch::angry::wallbreak:

[StoneOne]

of friends and family and people I dont know making judgements and statements about how I look and dress, my facial hair, how I carry myselt, T , Top surgery . I am who I am and finally walking the path I should have years ago (more than I care to admit) Please dont make me be a ass and back up your bus I have had enough.
Is not my intent to be rude so I am sorry if I offend anyone but man it feels good to say out loud.
The higher power does not make mistakes and here I am so deal with it and I wont judge you all.
Thank You
ps
:daddy::onebutch::angry::wallbreak:

my family here and all on the planet to know I feel nothing but love and respect from you all !
This post is aimed at the my personal experience not anyone here.
Thank You for the planet and all the love, respect and support
SyrDamon

[Luv]

I wonder who's thoughts on image some us worry about. Is it our own or what we want others to think of us. I'm a light butch and as I said before. For the most of my life I have only been picked out of a crowd by someone who is LGBT and very seldom by a straight person. The image I have of myself is I am who I am, the lovers/girlfriends/partners I have have had never questioned my image (or if they did they never told me) and I it has never been requested by anyone I have been with to look or act a certain way. It has always bothered me that society has such a stronghold on what a girl or boy should act or look like. Screw society and their hegemonic attitudes.

We own our lives and we have the right to dress as we want, cut our hair as we want, present ourselves as we want without being ridiculed.

Admiration to those of you who live outside the box and fight for the rights to be who you are without conceding to societies definitions.

well said Okie...Medusa once called me a "faggy butch" cause I love all things theater,musical etc lol

Im just mellow..take me as I am or not at all. In the community they look at me and say id=butch,,Ive never liked being called "sir" because I am femaile-identified..now,,I sit here with my hair pulled back into a small ponytail...,, I guess as I hit my 50's I dont care as how people see me anymore on the outside as long as they know its the insides that last

[Okiebug61]

well said Okie...Medusa once called me a "faggy butch" cause I love all things theater,musical etc lol

Im just mellow..take me as I am or not at all. In the community they look at me and say id=butch,,Ive never liked being called "sir" because I am femaile-identified..now,,I sit here with my hair pulled back into a small ponytail...,, I guess as I hit my 50's I dont care as how people see me anymore on the outside as long as they know its the insides that last

Well hey "Faggy Butch" I'm with you on this. I love the theater and musicals. Red and I are hoping you stop and stay a few days when you head back to Tenn. You are bringing Gypsy correct?