Why lipstick lesbians have to keep coming out of the closet

[Quintease]

I don't use the term 'lipstick lesbian' myself, but I thought her point was valid (http://thoughtcatalog.com/2012/why-lipstick-lesbians-have-to-keep-on-coming-out-of-the-closet/).

[aishah]

i really like this article. thank you for sharing it.

i especially like that she points out the distrust of what we say about ourselves (even after we come out), and the fact that we're held accountable for other people's misconceptions.

[CherylNYC]

"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females. It is a radical and subversive act to continually go through the ritual of beauty in spite of alienation from one group and unwanted attention from another. Being femme will stop being radical once it is seen as valid as being butch is."

I could print this on a t-shirt and wear it every day.

[Miss Scarlett]

i love my femininity/girly-girl side and everything that goes with it...curls, make-up, perfume and all other soft & pretty things. But i also embrace all the non-girly-girl things and make them my own. Femme is my core (just as being a submissive is my core)...so i don't need the accessories to make any sort of transformation...if i'm in grubbies because i've been turning a wrench on something i'm just as Femme as when i'm wearing make-up and something very feminine & pretty. Though i do so love the accessories...lol

At times in the past i felt the need to "explain myself" since i was often mistaken for a straight woman, but i no longer do this...perhaps this comes with age...i don't know. What i do know is that i am who i am...a Femme lesbian who is attracted to Butch lesbians...if the world can't figure that out it's not my problem...it only matters to me and my partner...

[laruss]

I guess you could say I am a 'Femme' but I don't really feel it. I hide well in the hetro world because of my look, but in turn it can be a struggle in the community. I don't look 'gay', whatever that means. Getting a woman to take me seriously when I ask them out has been an issue because they look at me and assume we don't play for the same team.

[Ebon]

My favorite part of this article.


"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females."

[princessbelle]

That is such a great article Quintease!!! Thanks for sharing that.

I appreciate all of it, but this really hit home...

"In some ways my invisibility is preferable. I can safely move throughout the mainstream world untethered to a certain identity, while butch lesbians wear their sexuality on their sleeve. My girlfriend can rarely go into a public bathroom without getting a second, confused glance. That’s hard. But she’s also a smash in specifically gay spaces, she gets to fully embody an identity, and she’d get laid more often than the girl in the skirt we’re unsure about."

So basically in the straight world, most of the time, many of us "femmes" have straight privilege and most butch women do not. I don't get the stares in the bathroom ect. But, it is such a two edged sword. I also don't get the acknowledgement of being gay around my people. It does make it more apparent to them now that i walk with my butch, but it is still questionable to family, i'm sure.

I've writtin about this before but one of my first lesbian parties i went to i was so excited but was treated differently. There was not one single femme there, that i could tell, and i was a total outsider. People would stop talking when i walked up to them and just glare at me.

Back then, i certainly felt like i didn't fit in the straight world or the gay world and that was really difficult and i spent many nights crying about it. I was very much alone in this world.

Being femme is not as easy as it looks. Being femme is hard sometimes. Being femme brings it's own set of problems and issues and difficulties with fitting in.

But. I am now proud of who i am. I could never be anything else if i stay true to myself. And I plan on it.

[Morgan]

I have thought about this topic many times, and would like to share my thoughts. I have talked with many of my friends who unfortunately for reasons unknown to me, have stated that they would not date women who are femme. I do not understand this, but have told them to not judge the women I think are beautiful and who I find very attractive. A femme to me is a powerful woman, she has grace, beauty, class, style, a way of carrying herself which embodies all of the feminine traits. She is something really special, and I admire her for not bending or conforming to society's myth or the gay society's myth of what a lesbian should look like or act like.
I find femme women to be very special and I admire them very much....

[starryeyes]

We are are superheroes.... Crushing stereotypes left and right, causing straighties to take a second glance and scratch their heads when we casually grab our Butches hands while walking in public. We cause them to question themselves and think about their own misconceptions about the Gay community. We fiercely defend our Butches and our community. We educate and answer ridculious questions. We open people's minds. We are amazing. We are powerful Femme sistas, we are strong, and we don't let anyone forget that! Femme Pride!!! :-D

[mariamma]

Thanks for sharing. People do think I'm straight. I like to dance and often attract the attention of men only. There are no gay clubs in Eugene anymore so the lgbt community clubs at queer-friendly establishments. Men are stunned when I don't give out my number because I'm lesbian. Almost all do not know what being femme means. Maybe we can get a femme-visibility movement going?

[Miss Scarlett]

We are are superheroes.... Crushing stereotypes left and right, causing straighties to take a second glance and scratch their heads when we casually grab our Butches hands while walking in public. We cause them to question themselves and think about their own misconceptions about the Gay community. We fiercely defend our Butches and our community. We educate and answer ridculious questions. We open people's minds. We are amazing. We are powerful Femme sistas, we are strong, and we don't let anyone forget that! Femme Pride!!! :-D

Amen & the heck with all of those stereotypes!

i love taking Clay's hand or arm in public and am fiercy proud of hym!

Lifting my glass of sweet tea...Here's to Femme Pride & my beautiful Femme Sisters everywhere!!!

Hmmm...should we design our own Femme Pride flag/banner?

[BullDog]

Thanks for sharing the article Quintease and for all the great responses in this thread. It really bugs me when people talk about how butches/FTMS/trans guys have it so much harder or that femmes have it easy. Femmes have their own issues to face and some that I never encounter.

It is sad but true that even among lesbians that are not butch or femme that masculine seems to be valued over feminine. Femmes are just as lesbian/queer/gay as any androgynous or masculine-looking female. Yes Starry, I agree, you are Superheroes. (f)

[gaea]

I haven't had to "come out" in a awhile

recently we hired a new person and on her second day she and i had a conversation went like this

Her: Are you married?
Me : No its not allowed
Her: puzzled expression on her face..
Me: trying not to laugh, "I dont date men"
Her: backing out of the office quickly

me, im still trying not to laugh about this...

one of my coworkers is gay and he is obvious where as i guess im not...the constant "are you married" question is a big ole pain in the ass...

perhaps when it is allowed...perhaps someday i will be able to say "yes" not only to marriage however to the are you married question.

I like the femme that i am :)

[SugarFemme]

Unless I am on the arm of a butch, I come "Out" every single time I walk out the door of my home. And even then it is no guarantee. My ex-partner did not like PDA, so we never held hands in public. Never failed when we were together, we got the question, "Are you two sisters"?? Hmmmmm...lemme see, I'll let you decide.....I am 5'1" light brown eyes, dark hair and Jewish. She is was 5'9" blond hair and blue eyes, Pennsylvania Dutch Mennonite. Really??Sisters??

[LipstickLola]

*Ahem* Lipsticklola here :lips:
I can totally relate to the article. In the hetero world, I'm just another middle aged woman, in the community? I'm just another middle aged woman, LOL, unless I'm with my very butch Xg/f. Having come out later in life, but with a fairly good idea of "who" I was, it's still disconcerting to be somewhat discriminated against amongst other lesbians because I've been previously married to a man. So while we all promote diversity, inclusion, and want to wrap our arms around women like ourselves, (regardless of what label we wear) there is still the stigma of being different, even among gay women. Lipstick lesbians may continually have to come out of the closet, and then again there are times it almost feels easier to stay there.

[Ginger]

I've said already somewhere on the site, being femme was always a contextual ID for me—it was my way of "coming out" in my attraction to butch women.

Eventually, though, I ended up with a woman who looks and acts butch in many ways, but doesn't ascribe to that ID, and it felt like one hand clapping—me holding on to the femme thing, when she is pretty dismissive of butch-femme culture.

So, one day I woke up and it was gone. I felt like my femme ID had become obsolete.

I look very straight—make-up, big earrings, long, layered hair, and I wear dresses and skirts every day, with boots. Most people assume I'm straight.

But one day recently I realized I make the butch conductor on the LIRR very nervous. I'm certain she recognizes me as femme, and sort of activates it in me, though I hadn't been in touch with the ID for a long time.

I guess that sounds very dependent on others, that whole "activate" thing—like I'm some kind of doll waiting to be taken down from the shelf. Yuk! That isn't what I mean.

I have to think about this. The words aren't really right.

[SweetJane]

*Ahem* Lipsticklola here :lips:
I can totally relate to the article. In the hetero world, I'm just another middle aged woman, in the community? I'm just another middle aged woman, LOL, unless I'm with my very butch Xg/f. Having come out later in life, but with a fairly good idea of "who" I was, it's still disconcerting to be somewhat discriminated against amongst other lesbians because I've been previously married to a man. So while we all promote diversity, inclusion, and want to wrap our arms around women like ourselves, (regardless of what label we wear) there is still the stigma of being different, even among gay women. Lipstick lesbians may continually have to come out of the closet, and then again there are times it almost feels easier to stay there.

Boy can I ever relate to your words, Lipsticklola! I am in an area that is gay-friendly for the most part, but I still appear to be straight in most situations because I read femme as an older woman. When I'm at gay events, most of the time I feel like an outsider as if I don't quite belong. It isn't that the lesbians (or the gay men for that matter) that I know value masculinity so much as they value androgyny, looking like everyone else, being like everyone else. Many women in this community read butchish but don't quite have the male energy. And others may sort of look femme but they aren't either.

Recently I was told by a butch-type lesbian to stop using labels for identity and to broaden who I wanted to be with. Well, honey, I'm a stone femme. I don't want to be anything else and I only want to be with someone who gets who I am. My preference is for my stone complement. I may be a very, very late bloomer but I'd rather be alone than settle for someone who would try to make me into something I'm not.

Lipsticklola, we femmes have to stick together.

[Passionaria]

Again, thank you Quintease for posting this article and starting this conversation. I love her attitude, the exuberance of youth and exploration, makes me giggle, Not the subject matter, but her way of dealing.

I have led a pretty sheltered gay life, as in I have mostly been in the Butch Femme community. Recently I have been branching out and going to different events just to explore out of my comfort zone. I am finding that I am more accepted by my straight community of friends as a high femme lesbian than the andro-lesbian world. I have men friends who I know are interested in me, they have said so. I tell them about my (at the time girlfriend) and they are sad but rise to the occasion with respect and care. Same with my straight women friends (well they don't hit on me). I am out at work, and totally accepted. Now this is Austin.

This has not been true in my ventures into the androgynous lesbian world. One evening I went to a lesbian "book club" where a member was doing a reading from a new book she had written and published. I could not believe the reaction I got. I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I'm like OK (don't hate me) I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. No sumptuousness, no creamy rich butter, no honey dripping over cinnamon, just plain oatmeal. I can accept that they like plain oatmeal, but I find it boring. So we have differences, that's cool. I figure I'll just ask intelligent questions and meet them on an intellectual level. Well I made the speaker so nervous she had to be rude to me to feel in control. Her partner had to say in front of everyone, be nice she may want to buy your book. REALLY?

From this and other experiences I am starting believe that what they are yelling in their conformity is I'm not a man or a woman, I'm a Lesbian. And there appears to be a strict and yes narrow adherence to a set of standards that must be followed to be accepted in this community. Running to much male energy or too much female energy means your not one of the pack. Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme. Now I'm going somewhere with this so don't judge me. I could tell that I turned this author on, because she was all twitchy, she had a hard on and I was making her have to deal with her nasty masculinity in front of people who would judge her for it, and her partner who looked just like her, while she was trying to sell us on her book. So she was rude to me to deny the whole situation.

Case in point 2:
I was dating a lesbian boi who likes feminine women. But all the women she had dated were "lesbians" not high femmes. As a femme I am not going to pretend I don't like that nasty man thing your strapping on. I'm going to "put it down", cause I like that kind of sex. She felt her male energy full on for the first time in her life. She was talking about getting a sex change. And the things she was feeling scared her. She was online with a bunch of andro-lesbians and put herself out there like the freaky boi she is, and talking about likening to blindfold people and tie them up, and let me tell you, that went over like a ton of bricks. Next thing I know she's denying any love of her male energy, saying passionate wild sex is cold, and eating plain oatmeal with the rest of her friends, and saying Amen. But she fits in perfectly now. WOW, that's some social pressure!????

From these and a few other experiences the only thing that I can figure out as to why Femmes are treated the way we are in the andro community is this: Feminine energy is a powerful thing, especially when expressed with out inhibition. It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men. And the all out feminine energy represents a sell out to men, or a lushness that arouses the male energy. All of which appears to be taboo. Have I lost my mind, or does any of this make sense?? I'm really trying to understand my experiences.....

Pashi (the Drag Queen Parrot)

http://www.australiazoo.com.au/our-animals/amazing-animals/images/profile_83_600.jpg

[SweetJane]

Passionaria, you're bringing the Word. This is exactly what I've experienced here. I long for my own kind, to be validated by them.

[Martina]

i know a lot of non-bf lesbians who have hot sex, in fact, kinky sex. Just saying.

[LipstickLola]

My Xg/f had never been with a femme lesbian before, all of her previous relationships had been with very androgynous (in appearence outwardly) lesbians. There was a period of time that I felt she was quite uncomfortable with me, then there were times I felt like she reveled in it, I let her be her strong beautiful self, but then when I wanted to, I was just as strong and anything but the femme I appeared to be on the outside, such as changing the oil in my truck, I used to sneak and do it, LOL
All in all, I believe this was a core issue in the demise of the relationship.:seeingstars:

Sometimes I still just want to scream, why, why, why???? can't we all be happy? :hangloose:

[apretty]

good article, thanks.

[apretty]

Yes, a lot.

Thanks for sharing the article Quintease and for all the great responses in this thread. It really bugs me when people talk about how butches/FTMS/trans guys have it so much harder or that femmes have it easy. Femmes have their own issues to face and some that I never encounter.

It is sad but true that even among lesbians that are not butch or femme that masculine seems to be valued over feminine. Femmes are just as lesbian/queer/gay as any androgynous or masculine-looking female. Yes Starry, I agree, you are Superheroes. (f)

[Quintease]

I've said already somewhere on the site, being femme was always a contextual ID for me—it was my way of "coming out" in my attraction to butch women.

Eventually, though, I ended up with a woman who looks and acts butch in many ways, but doesn't ascribe to that ID, and it felt like one hand clapping—me holding on to the femme thing, when she is pretty dismissive of butch-femme culture.

So, one day I woke up and it was gone. I felt like my femme ID had become obsolete.

I kinda had that, but in reverse. I felt very strongly about my femme ID once. It was my ID and had nothing to do with anyone I dated, Femme was who I was. Only then I dated a woman who made me feel like being femme was a cage. There was something about her that made my femininity ugly and dirty and an obligation. It was only after our relationship ended that I realised her ex before me had the same experience and also rejected the femme ID while with her.
It was probably a good thing as then I met my husband and a femme identity would have been obsolete anyhow.

Perhaps if it can be activated it can also be deactivated.

[Passionaria]

i know a lot of non-bf lesbians who have hot sex, in fact, kinky sex. Just saying.

I don't doubt that at all, but it wasn't cool to be kinky in this bunch. The need for conformity shouted that, to me anyway.

<3 Pashi

[*Anya*]

I enjoyed the article and agree that as a femme lesbian I do need to continually "come out" unless I am with my crew-cut butch and then it is pretty clear what I am.

During my last hospitalization as she would walk the halls with me trailing my IV pole and holding her arm, I saw recognition wash over the face of everyone passed or if they came into my room and saw her- they knew right away I was a lesbian. I liked it because I did not need to say a word and I was instantly out.

I personally would rather keep this thread on the original focus and point of the article, than turn it into one on some androgynous lesbians being intolerant of the butch-femme dynamic.

It always makes me very uncomcomfortable when I see that happening. Butch-femme is a small minority within a small minority and generalizations always bother me. I am not discounting anyone's own personal experiences.

I personally would rather hear about how each of us continually need to come out as invisible femmes, than becoming negative about other lesbians not into our dynamic.

I have been out for some 34 years. I have had relationships with a femme, butches and androgynous lesbians. It is the fault of no one that what rings my own chimes are butches in general and at this point in my life, my love, my butch; in particular.

Why anyone of us are turned on by the butch-femme dynamic can't be explained, it just is.

My lesbian androgynous sisters not into our shared b-f dynamic still deal with the same issues that we do as lesbians in general and for that reason alone, I personally do not feel comfortable focusing on how they may or may not feel comfortable with strap-on sex. For me, that would be another thread entirely.

[LipstickLola]

I actually 'came out' again this past weekend to someone I'd known all my life, the look on their face was pure confusion.
Sigh......:vigil:.....Just keep on shining in my own way I guess!

[Kelt]

I enjoyed the article and agree that as a femme lesbian I do need to continually "come out" unless I am with my crew-cut butch and then it is pretty clear what I am.

During my last hospitalization as she would walk the halls with me trailing my IV pole and holding her arm, I saw recognition wash over the face of everyone passed or if they came into my room and saw her- they knew right away I was a lesbian. I liked it because I did not need to say a word and I was instantly out.


From the butch perspective this provided me with an interesting learning experience as well.

Given my appearance I am pretty much never mistaken as straight. I am accustomed to being instantly categorized whether for good or for bad. When we would walk the hospital together it was just those same old looks as far as I was concerned.

I first started to realize what she was going though when I would return to her room and someone else was already there. Sometimes if I would step out to check on something, or get a meal I would come back and there would be somebody new talking to her. Whether a nurse or doctor or someone else, there would be this big double take when I would walk into the room.

They would be looking at her and talking with her and glance over to see me. At that point you could practically see the gears start turning in their heads. They would look back at her and give her that second evaluation look. Then the lightbulb would go on.

They were extremely good about treating us as a respected couple. But it gave me a chance to see that she does in fact operate under a cloud of assumption that others place upon her. I don't know what went on in these people's minds as they reassessed her. But it was clear to me that that was what was going on.

It was good for me to see this. I guess I just always thought that it would be easier to select who did and did not know, and have the option of passing.

I think about it a little differently now. I can see where having everyone assume that you are something you are not and having to constantly correct them if you want them to get it right would be cumbersome at best.

No answers here, just an observation.

I continue to be impressed with all of the femmes out there, but this one in particular.

:balloon:

[Passionaria]

I personally would rather keep this thread on the original focus and point of the article, than turn it into one on some androgynous lesbians being intolerant of the butch-femme dynamic.

It always makes me very uncomcomfortable when I see that happening. Butch-femme is a small minority within a small minority and generalizations always bother me. I am not discounting anyone's own personal experiences.

I personally would rather hear about how each of us continually need to come out as invisible femmes, than becoming negative about other lesbians not into our dynamic.

I have been out for some 34 years. I have had relationships with a femme, butches and androgynous lesbians. It is the fault of no one that what rings my own chimes are butches in general and at this point in my life, my love, my butch; in particular.
.

Hi Anya,
I was sharing a couple of recent experiences, about me coming out as a femme, out side of the B-F Community. Several in a row, that left me feeling really seen and unwanted. I didn't create the mindset of the different groups, I walked into it, and was shocked. I apologize if my experiences make you uncomfortable. I can assure you not as uncomfortable as I am......And strap on sex was a subject in this experience, as well as male energy, and being too femme. The bottom line is that these experiences were far from positive, and left me really sad and baffled.

I can't pretend these experiences were wonderful sisterhood bonding moments in the lesbian world, they were not, and quite frankly I needed a bit of support. I realize that I have strong feelings about my experiences, and that I am intense and verbose and descriptive, but I am also straight up honest about how I felt it, what I saw. Writing it out helped me process it. Honestly if you all read that and can not tell my heart is hurting, well.................


PS I hope you are mending well. It's nice to see you happy with your sweetie
<3 Pashi

[deedarino]

I crave being out and proud...yet unless partnered, I am invisible. I am automatically considered straight and I assure you I am not. In fact, often I have to assure potential partners and wayward males that I am not.

There was a time that I changed my look to fit in, to be able to be a LESBIAN...but I did not fit in. Turns out you can change your clothes but it doesn't change you. I looked ridiculous and more importantly, felt like I was in logger drag. I wanted to just be who I was but thought something was wrong with me. Maybe I was a faker, maybe I was confused. I was constantly asked by my friends (who didn't understand it any more than I did), "If you like girls that look like guys why don't you just date guys???" I had no idea but that thought wasn't appealing at all.

My life changed when I found a community of Butch/Femmes. Forever the loves of my life. I was like a kid at christmas...and probably acted like one too...lol. I put back on MY clothes and my lipstick, and my confidence...I still have no answers as to why but I now know exactly who I am. I may not always be "out" but I am always proud.

And I am grateful for you all...

[Morgan]

Again, thank you Quintease for posting this article and starting this conversation. I love her attitude, the exuberance of youth and exploration, makes me giggle, Not the subject matter, but her way of dealing.

I have led a pretty sheltered gay life, as in I have mostly been in the Butch Femme community. Recently I have been branching out and going to different events just to explore out of my comfort zone. I am finding that I am more accepted by my straight community of friends as a high femme lesbian than the andro-lesbian world. I have men friends who I know are interested in me, they have said so. I tell them about my (at the time girlfriend) and they are sad but rise to the occasion with respect and care. Same with my straight women friends (well they don't hit on me). I am out at work, and totally accepted. Now this is Austin.

This has not been true in my ventures into the androgynous lesbian world. One evening I went to a lesbian "book club" where a member was doing a reading from a new book she had written and published. I could not believe the reaction I got. I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I'm like OK (don't hate me) I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. No sumptuousness, no creamy rich butter, no honey dripping over cinnamon, just plain oatmeal. I can accept that they like plain oatmeal, but I find it boring. So we have differences, that's cool. I figure I'll just ask intelligent questions and meet them on an intellectual level. Well I made the speaker so nervous she had to be rude to me to feel in control. Her partner had to say in front of everyone, be nice she may want to buy your book. REALLY?

From this and other experiences I am starting believe that what they are yelling in their conformity is I'm not a man or a woman, I'm a Lesbian. And there appears to be a strict and yes narrow adherence to a set of standards that must be followed to be accepted in this community. Running to much male energy or too much female energy means your not one of the pack. Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme. Now I'm going somewhere with this so don't judge me. I could tell that I turned this author on, because she was all twitchy, she had a hard on and I was making her have to deal with her nasty masculinity in front of people who would judge her for it, and her partner who looked just like her, while she was trying to sell us on her book. So she was rude to me to deny the whole situation.

Case in point 2:
I was dating a lesbian boi who likes feminine women. But all the women she had dated were "lesbians" not high femmes. As a femme I am not going to pretend I don't like that nasty man thing your strapping on. I'm going to "put it down", cause I like that kind of sex. She felt her male energy full on for the first time in her life. She was talking about getting a sex change. And the things she was feeling scared her. She was online with a bunch of andro-lesbians and put herself out there like the freaky boi she is, and talking about likening to blindfold people and tie them up, and let me tell you, that went over like a ton of bricks. Next thing I know she's denying any love of her male energy, saying passionate wild sex is cold, and eating plain oatmeal with the rest of her friends, and saying Amen. But she fits in perfectly now. WOW, that's some social pressure!????

From these and a few other experiences the only thing that I can figure out as to why Femmes are treated the way we are in the andro community is this: Feminine energy is a powerful thing, especially when expressed with out inhibition. It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men. And the all out feminine energy represents a sell out to men, or a lushness that arouses the male energy. All of which appears to be taboo. Have I lost my mind, or does any of this make sense?? I'm really trying to understand my experiences.....

Pashi (the Drag Queen Parrot)


http://www.australiazoo.com.au/our-animals/amazing-animals/images/profile_83_600.jpg


I understand where you are coming from...I am not ashamed to admit it took many years for me to come out as a butch. The women I dated and the women who were my friends were adrogynous, I had no clue about femme women. Oh how ignorant I was to the Butch/Femme community...I finally met a femme woman who brought me out and showed me another facet of my true identity. When I finally stepped out I realized how much I was missing, how comfortable I felt in the B/F lifestyle, I prepared myself for what I knew would be the backlash of identifying as a proud butch.
I am honored to wear the Butch badge, just as I hope my Femme sisters are proud to wear their badge. I feel that the lesbian community needs to be educated, I am willing to step forward and do my part. I believe we teach others how to treat us, yes there are going to be some who no matter what will not appreciate or like us, but if I can teach just a few, maybe they will be able to educate others.
I am only one, speaking about my own feelings, I would never claim to speak for anyone else.....

[Library_girl]

I crave being out and proud...yet unless partnered, I am invisible. I am automatically considered straight and I assure you I am not. In fact, often I have to assure potential partners and wayward males that I am not.

There was a time that I changed my look to fit in, to be able to be a LESBIAN...but I did not fit in. Turns out you can change your clothes but it doesn't change you. I looked ridiculous and more importantly, felt like I was in logger drag. I wanted to just be who I was but thought something was wrong with me. Maybe I was a faker, maybe I was confused. I was constantly asked by my friends (who didn't understand it any more than I did), "If you like girls that look like guys why don't you just date guys???" I had no idea but that thought wasn't appealing at all.

My life changed when I found a community of Butch/Femmes. Forever the loves of my life. I was like a kid at christmas...and probably acted like one too...lol. I put back on MY clothes and my lipstick, and my confidence...I still have no answers as to why but I now know exactly who I am. I may not always be "out" but I am always proud.

And I am grateful for you all...

Absolutely! We femmes ARE usually invisible when unpartnered, which is so frustrating. Several femmes together can look like a group of straight women. Going to a "lesbian" event as a solo femme....eek! I stick out like a sore thumb. The looks I get feel like "What's with the skirt?"

This is not new. When I first came out of the closet 25 years ago, I tried to fit into some type of lesbian classification. Back then it was sporty dyke, hikin' dyke, granola dyke, baby dyke, etc. (Pardon the use of "dyke" if that offends you--that's what we said in my part of the world back then.) It always felt weird and unnatural. I still never purchased Birkenstocks, but I did get some Tevas. LOL Then later when I discovered the butch/femme world of the early 90's...woo hoo! It was like coming home. There were so few of us, but I didn't care. I'd found my femme identity. It has gotten a little bit easier in "Mainstream Lesbiana" in the last 20 years, I have to say. But that's due, in part, to societal improvements, as well as the growth of the LGBT community. Hooray for all of it!

And now I just hope for and push for a better recognition of femmes who are unpartnered, like myself. Short of a giant forehead tattoo.....I like the suggestions on the Femme Flagging thread. :)

[*Anya*]

Since I was personally addressed because of my post, I shall respond in kind. I generally prefer to do it in a pm but again, since the post was addressed to me specifically, I will post my response here.

Pashi, I was not uncomfortable hearing of your own personal experiences.

What I did state, without calling you out personally in my post, was that generalizations made me uncomfortable!

Besides generalizations about androgynous lesbians, there felt to me, a judgmental tone to your post that yes, did make me uncomfortable and I quote:

"I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. "

You, yourself, acknowledged that you were generalizing:

"Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme."

One of the insults some straight men (not all) have always liked to throw at lesbians is that we hate or dislike men as the reason we are lesbians.

I expect it when I hear it from them but did not expect to see you use that same old tired myth that lesbians dislike men and that is why we are lesbians. Your post also included this:

"It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men".

We have no idea what their issues with butch identity are but to say that many of them dislike men? That is part of that old myth about lesbians.

The intent of the article was about the need for femme lesbians to keep on coming out due to our invisibility.

That is one issue that all of us as femmes/ femme lesbians can relate to.

I just do not relate to the need to put down, be critical or hostile towards lesbians or dykes that are not into the butch-femme dynamic or who chose to live their life in a more androgynous manner than I do.

Some may have been rude to femmes from a lack of understanding. It has happened to me. I just accepted that we had differences and found my place in our community.

I still think it is a large enough community to have some sensitivity and understanding of those issues that we have in common with all dykes and lesbians: a lack of tolerance and acceptance by the society at large.

I can love the butch-femme dynamic without needing to be intolerant of those not into it for whatever their reasons may be.

That is how I see it.

[Passionaria]

I understand where you are coming from...I am not ashamed to admit it took many years for me to come out as a butch. The women I dated and the women who were my friends were adrogynous, I had no clue about femme women. Oh how ignorant I was to the Butch/Femme community...I finally met a femme woman who brought me out and showed me another facet of my true identity. When I finally stepped out I realized how much I was missing, how comfortable I felt in the B/F lifestyle, I prepared myself for what I knew would be the backlash of identifying as a proud butch.
I am honored to wear the Butch badge, just as I hope my Femme sisters are proud to wear their badge. I feel that the lesbian community needs to be educated, I am willing to step forward and do my part. I believe we teach others how to treat us, yes there are going to be some who no matter what will not appreciate or like us, but if I can teach just a few, maybe they will be able to educate others.
I am only one, speaking about my own feelings, I would never claim to speak for anyone else.....

Thank you Morgan, I appreciate your story, and your intent. Big hugs to you!!!

Pashi

[Passionaria]

Since I was personally addressed because of my post, I shall respond in kind. I generally prefer to do it in a pm but again, since the post was addressed to me specifically, I will post my response here.

Pashi, I was not uncomfortable hearing of your own personal experiences.

What I did state, without calling you out personally in my post, was that generalizations made me uncomfortable!

Besides generalizations about androgynous lesbians, there felt to me, a judgmental tone to your post that yes, did make me uncomfortable and I quote:

"I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. "

You, yourself, acknowledged that you were generalizing:

"Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme."

One of the insults some straight men (not all) have always liked to throw at lesbians is that we hate or dislike men as the reason we are lesbians.

I expect it when I hear it from them but did not expect to see you use that same old tired myth that lesbians dislike men and that is why we are lesbians. Your post also included this:

"It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men".

We have no idea what their issues with butch identity are but to say that many of them dislike men? That is part of that old myth about lesbians.

The intent of the article was about the need for femme lesbians to keep on coming out due to our invisibility.

That is one issue that all of us as femmes/ femme lesbians can relate to.

I just do not relate to the need to put down, be critical or hostile towards lesbians or dykes that are not into the butch-femme dynamic or who chose to live their life in a more androgynous manner than I do.

Some may have been rude to femmes from a lack of understanding. It has happened to me. I just accepted that we had differences and found my place in our community.

I still think it is a large enough community to have some sensitivity and understanding of those issues that we have in common with all dykes and lesbians: a lack of tolerance and acceptance by the society at large.

I can love the butch-femme dynamic without needing to be intolerant of those not into it for whatever their reasons may be.

That is how I see it.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoints and feelings. Some stereotypes are hype, some have basis in reality, especially when a pattern forms over time. Just because I call some people on their behavior does not mean I am anti-anything, besides the behavior it's self, and it's obvious it was working my nerves. I just honestly say what I see and feel, and my vivid imagery often gets me into hot water. That is how I saw it lol. Oatmeal, birds and all. We may have different styles of expression, and that's cool. We'll just leave it at that. I do appreciate you taking the time to express yourself. I won't derail any further.
Pashi

[lettertodaddy]

(Pardon the use of "dyke" if that offends you--that's what we said in my part of the world back then.)

I love the word dyke. I consider myself to be a femme dyke. That word encapsulates so many meanings, but when I say I'm interested in butch dykes, people seem to understand what I mean.

[grenade]

"I could literally fingerbang a girl in the street but because I’d do it with glitter nail polish and bracelets clanging, I won’t be viewed as truly, purely gay."

This is so true to me.

My boss recently confided to me that because her boss had hired a close friend (her boss is a lesbian) the whole company would be nothing but lesbians. "You know how they are, if you have one they bring all their friends."

I looked at her and asked, "Really? You're saying this to me?"

Her response, "Oh, I forget."

[mariamma]

My boss recently confided to me that because her boss had hired a close friend (her boss is a lesbian) the whole company would be nothing but lesbians. "You know how they are, if you have one they bring all their friends."

I looked at her and asked, "Really? You're saying this to me?"

Her response, "Oh, I forget."

Well that's just poor manners on your boss's part. Did she say "Pardon me?" I need to learn from others mistakes but this one is kind of yucky. May I never be as yucky and insensitive as Grenade's boss. I wish you :rrose: :rrose: :rrose: :) and peace.

[mariamma]

It is a radical and subversive act to continually go through the ritual of beauty in spite of alienation from one group and unwanted attention from another. Being femme will stop being radical once it is seen as valid as being butch is. But for now, I choose to celebrate my girlyness and my gayness. I choose to say that getting gussied up is as essential and important to me as my queerness is, and that I wouldn’t give up either to become culturally comprehensible or belong to some imagined club. That would be the real tragedy.

I came out again almost two years ago. No on believes I'm not bisexual, even my kids. Straight men like me a lot but I'm not interested in dating men ever again. I was with men by choice, for children and the sight of a butch woman broke me of my habit. I was considering being poly with a couple, saw her and suddenly never wanted to have sex with a man ever again. Men could give me babies but truthfully were a substitute for butch women. As I'm learning now, a Daddy.
What's a femmilicious babe to do? There is this weird stigma against femmes by some women (lesbian and straight) because we have curves and proudly display our finesse in life while dancing in 4" heels. And I don't do make up except perfume and lip balm. I love being a vibrant radiant beauty (even though I'm missing teeth). I have lived this way since 14 and will hot tub with, pick flowers with, dance in bra only by the light of the moon with, giggle with, swim in open waters with, cry with depth and love with euphoria all women until the day I die. That's just how this babe rolls. And obviously my sister from another mister, the author of this article.
I initially read a few paragraphs and for some reason didn't like it. I'm so glad I gave the piece another peek.
Anyways, I have writing to do...

[yotlyolqualli]

Hello! This article really spoke to me, on many levels. It made me take a deep breath, sit back and examine my own feelings of invisibility and inability to somehow find a "niche" where I fit in.

I was raised Mennonite, and always "knew" women's role in life and in the family. What I didn't realize, until later on in life, was that trying to live that role, would be not only extremely difficult for me, but damned near impossible.

My parents were strict and we girls wore dresses. The only time pants were permitted, was when it was cold out, we were going to be out in that cold, and even then, we were only permitted to wear them under a skirt or dress. Things changed in my teen years, but I've always felt most comfortable in a dress.

When I realized I was gay at age 30 (took me a long time to figure out why I just didn't seem to like men..lol) I not only knew why the knight in shining armor of my girlhood dreams, was always a girl, I also realized why nothing ever seemed to click for me. It seemed like I was always one second behind, one moment behind and I was missing out on so much.

I was excited and terrified and horrified, all at the same time. I was gay. For some, realizing that is a relief. For me it was like a "light bulb" moment, and then I was devastated. You can't go 30 years through of life, being taught that homosexuality is a sin, then realizing that you are gay, without paralyzing and crippling fear grabbing hold of your throat and ravaging your soul. But eventually, I was able to grasp the reality and over time, learned that I am perfect, just like any other creature in God's creation.

So, it was with great excitement, that I stepped "out" not only to my family, friends and church (I got kicked out..lol) but I was stepping into my "niche" the place I had been longing for, for my entire life.

What I got, instead, was a slap in the face. No one believed I was gay. For a long time, not even my family would believe it. When people saw me, they saw ME... the mennonite.. the sunday school teacher... the worship leader... the "shore" girl... and in the gay community, I was straight. I wanted so badly and so desperately to fit in, that I stopped wearing dresses, stopped being "girly" emotionally, (stopped claiming to be a christian.. another topic)stopped doing what came naturally to me and started "acting" gay. I was welcomed then, with open arms.

But, once again I felt like I was one second too slow, one moment behind and I began to rebel against all of it. I started doing all the things I used to do, and when I did, I was accused of "going straight." So, once again, I allowed myself to be drawn back in to that world, to that society. I eventually met and became involved with a woman in a relationship that lasted over 5 years. Every time I would move back to anything that even closely related to who I was before, I would get an instant reaction from my girlfriend, which always started and ended with the question, "are you going back to men?"

There were other issues within our relationship (her belief that monogamy is for straight people... again another topic) but this one always seemed to be the "hot spot" that would result in fights, arguments and me always backing down and conforming. I found out that iking butch women, meant that I really wanted to be with a man, acting too femme meant I wasn't really gay and finally, one day, my mind just screamed and my strength finally woke up and said "hello!"

I became determined to be who I felt I was, to live how my heart told me to live. Yay! End of story, right? Afraid not.

When I stopped allowing myself to be influenced by the "non B&F" lesbians, I started doing what I had and wanted to do. When someone found out that I built a deck in my ex's back yard, I was butch. When someone found out I had designed and sewn my god daughters christening gown, I was femme. The roles of butch and femme, seemed to me, almost as rigid as the "non B&F" lesbian roles. So, I started to identify as androgynous, simply to stop the whole "argument" of butch or femme. Once again, I felt out of place.

Finally, one night, while laying in a hospital bed, I just had myself a talk with God, Jesus, and myself. We all agreed that I was exactly who God had created me to be and no matter what others thought about me, I was a woman. Period. I was a woman who was a nurturer, a woman who could build a deck, a woman who could fix things, cook things, grow things and a woman who was femme. A femme who is drawn to butch women. A woman, who could still be a christian, a wife (and a "husband" when needed) and even a mother (not yet..lol). I was someone unique, and while I may never fit into someone elses "niche" I could and have, created my own.

Now, I have found my "niche". I have found the place I truly fit into and it's one I treasure and one that has an open door with a welcome mat. While I will always proudly identify as a lesbian, I also proudly identify as a non-comformist.

[rustedrims]

I have a question..
Living in the Mennonite lifestyle didnt you tell any of your friends..??..Did any of them have the same feelings you had..??..Any attracted to other girls..Wondering..???..
Put a dress on me and i will out myself sooo fast it will make that sewing machine jam..!!!..I know i couldnt live or dress like that..NO..!!..

Yo..
You gotta be who you are or you will be misriable every day..
Think you are better off in here with us..
Welcome again..

s..

[yotlyolqualli]

I was so very far in denial that I refused to believe it myself. There was a man, on my father's side of the family; a distant cousin, his name was Wendell. It was a known fact that Wendell was gay and it was not spoken highly of. In fact, it was made light of and while I can't say anyone was ever cruel to him, not even cruel when they spoke so lightly of him, but I knew, even as a child, that being "that way" was not approved of, nor thought highly of.

Add into that, the factor that I was raised in such a conservative faith, I was never, ever, in any doubt that the feelings I was experiencing were NOT normal and indeed were sinful in their very nature. I contributed that to what I now see as the perfect storm, if you will.

I was abused as a child, by two men, not of my family or church family. Women, sadly, within that culture, the conservative ones, were taught to believe (although the Mennonite church is moving away from this idealism) that men simply could not control themselves. This was why women dressed so modestly and did not call attention to themselves. I'm not suggesting that the church convinced me that I was to blame for being molested, but the culture laid that foundation and once those feelings get a foot hold into the mind of an impressionable child, who already feels guilty, it creates the perfect storm.

So I believed what I was feeling was sinful and that I was sinful. My mind, the turmoil I had been through, the guilt that I felt, ate at me, until I believed that I was already something sinful and ugly to God, without redeemable qualities. When I allowed myself to actually feel anything towards any sex, it automatically registered in me, as being horribly sinful and wrong.

My first inkling that something wasn't quite "right" to me, was shortly after I hit puberty, at age nine. I was spending Sunday afternoon with my best friend and her family, between morning and even church services, which we would often do. Twila and I were playing "house" which, trust me, was something that girls were encouraged to do. So, Twila was the "Dad" and I was the "Mom" and we were in the hay loft, acting as though we were going to bed. Twila, bless her heart, leaned down and kissed me. A simple peck on the lips that lasted maybe 3 seconds tops, but that kiss sent a shock through me, a very very physically pleasurable shock, but a shock none the less.

It scared me. I never spent another sunday afternoon with her again. Not because I was afraid of her, but because I was afraid that I would somehow "taint" her, because I was so sinful and dirty.

It wasn't until years later that the idea that I could be gay, actually formed in my mind and I spent the next 20 years trying to hide it, to supress it, to not acknowledge it, indeed to PROVE that I was wrong. When I met my first g/f, which was basically an experimental fling, I realized that I was gay. I realized that I could no longer deny it, or control it nor did I want too. But even then, the years of faith, the Bible college, the year spent in the mission field, the years spent as a sunday/bible school teacher, as a worship leader as head of committees and various roles within the church, kept me from believing that I was anything but sinful.

So, admitting that I was gay, to myself, was not a moment of "that's why I felt that way" but rather a moment of "OK! That's it! I can't deny myself anymore, I give up!" It took me a year, living with a woman who was NOT nice, to say the least, to finally allow my faith and my sexuality, begin to merge. It was when I truly felt, deep within my soul, that I was God's creation and God doesn't make mistakes, that I could allow myself to see myself as not only normal, not only NOT sinful or an abomination, but as a Christian, who also happened to be a lesbian.

When I stopped labeling myself as something bad, allowed myself to acknowledge my still deep and abiding faith, and embraced who I was, fully and completely (lots of therapy to get over the abuse... then lots of therapy to get over the not nice woman), that's when I began to emmerge out of my shell.

As for dressing as a Mennonite? For me, that was all that I knew. It was normal for me. I felt most comfortable in a dress, with the prayer cap. In fact, it allowed me to escape into a semblance of normalcy. When I came out to myself, then to my family and then to my church, even before I "left" the church, I stopped wearing the prayer cap and I stopped wearing the ultra conservative dresses. However, I still preferred dresses. It was what I was most comfortable in.

As for leaving the church. Mennonites practice shunning. That's where an elder is sent to "confront" a sinning member of the church, and try to councel that person into compliance with the church's teaching. If that doesn't work, then the entire board of elders will approach the sinning member (with wives if said member is a woman) and if that doesn't bring the menber into compliance, they are shunned. Sometimes to the extreme. When a person is shunned, not even the parents or siblings, or even children and spouses are permitted to eat with that person or talk to that person or pray with that person. Even in the most loving fashion (and most shunnings are done in love) they are harsh and very very strict in their view of what compliance is. The point of them is scripturally based, they are done to "lovingly shame" that member into coming back into compliance with the teachings of the church.

That was where I used the brain God gave me. Most of the people I went to church with, were siblings, aunts, uncles and cousins. In order for me to continue to go to church, if I chose too, and in order for my family to be able to relate to me without the overshadowing of the shunning, I simply withdrew my membership from the church, but not the congreghation.

I probably just answered more than what you wanted to know..., but there it is. As far as anyone else feeling that way? Not that I know of and Twila is now married with a little girl, a good husband and is happy, genuinely happy, so I know that kiss didn't mean anything to her or do anything "for" her.

One more thing, being Mennonite isn't just a religious experience, it is a culture, a beautiful culture, steeped in tradition and a very simplistic way of life. Even as a lesbian, I want to be the "wife", the role I truly believe God has called me to. A wife in the Mennonite traditional sense of the word. Someone who see's her "husband" as head of the family of the relationship and even as head of the spiritual health of the relationship. Most Mennonite women are submissive to their spouses. I am no different, my ideal spouse just happens to be another woman, a butch woman who feels the need to BE that head of the family.

I like it here, it has a very nice feel to it and I thank you rustedrims, for your interest and your welcome... *S

[rustedrims]

Hey Yo..

Just got done reading your post..
I sat back in my chair and said hum out loud..
There are a million thoughts going on in my mind now.
Thoughts of my x and the creepy things her dad did to her as a kid and her mom knowing..sister..??..
There is a word you used that stuck out in my mind i will ask you about a little later..I need to go outside and ride around on the mower for a while and think..I know what i have gone through finding a place in life where i was accepted and comfortable..I cant imagine living in that enviroment and being who you are..The stress has got to be unbearable..
You did answer my questions and the ones i was going to ask..Thank-you so much for your honesty..After reading what you wrote i am guessing it was still weighing on your mind..Being "let go" from your family,friends and maybe comfort zone to be by yourself..Maybe a blessing in disguise..If you were standing in front of me right now i would give you the Biggest Butch Hug..

s..

[femmsational]

I came out later in life. I was married to a man when I figured out I was in fact a big old dyke. I'd never been with a woman in any way but had always been unhappy. I'm not sure how to explain it other than it just dawned on me why I always got a little flutter in the tummy around butch women and men never did a thing for me. So, I got divorced and proceeded to try and figure out *my* gay. Or how I fit into the world as a lesbian.

I didn't know what to do so I hit a lesbian bar, had a couple flings, and joined a lesbian hiking club I found locally on line. It took almost a year before they even believed me. Which I can understand. I had been married and I was REAL new to being who I should have been all along.

It was so frustrating. I sure as hell wasn't going to change who I was, or how I presented, I was gay, not fashion confused??? I liked make-up, skirts, heels but I also wore jeans and boots to work every day and came home smelling like every nasty horse thing you can think of.

At first it bothered me. I met someone and began a year long relationship. It didn't work out and when I tried to tell her kindly that I was sorry but it wasn't working for me, she blew a gasket and yelled at me...."I should know better about you straight girls." :seeingstars: This from someone I dated for a year :seeingstars:

At that point I was pissed. I was who I was. If "they" don't get it, that's on "them." I had a moment. Got really mad one night and got one kanji tattoo on my right wrist that represents a rainbow and another on my left wrist that represents woman.....and I felt better. I stopped caring and just started living my life. I met someone who "got it" and dated them for four years. It seems to get easier the older I get. I guess I'm unwilling to give that much power to people who don't get me.

I don't "come out" today at all. I feel like if someone asks me if I'm married I just say yeah, my husband, she's wonderful. They either get it or they don't lol. If someone asks me about me, I'm filling in THEIR blank with my answer. So I really don't consider it me coming out. I'm already out.

I do understand the frustration about being unseen as who I am. But I just can't bring myself to care anymore. Unless of course someone acts a fool about it.

This is just how it works for ME!!! I hope I haven't offened anyone.


Take care,
julie

[rustedrims]

I had no idea what your day was like..I thought your lifestyle was hidden because " you dont look gay".. Then as you go about your daily business people dont look-stare at you because your lifestyle isnt written all over your appearance..Every time i leave my house i out myself..{Like today,went to the gas station..I put on my dirty jeans cut off t-shirt baseball hat on backwards in my 4x4 truck..How much more can i do to get the looks or stares..Guess i am asking for it}..Anyway i always thought that was a good thing like flying under the radar then when you get home you can be who you are..I see now getting asked out by bio males can be overwhelming at times..I do get asked by a guy at work to go out all the time..Always have turned him down..He is a nice guy and i do like him but cant do it..Guess he doesnt see it..The agervation also that a butch doesnt take you serious when asked out has to get a little discouraging to..I live in little town USA and if a pretty girl asked me out i would think she was setting me up for something uncomfortable and i might turn her down..I had no idea..
I tell ya if you were walking with me down any street any where people would know whats up and that we were together by my apperance. I would be attentive to your needs like opening doors and stuff like that..Funny as i wrote that my mom and sister always step back so i can get the door..Just habbit for them and me..

s..

[rustedrims]

I re-read your post again..
Still amaizes me how your own family and friends turn their back on you so easily because your lifestyle is different than theirs..Maybe they had thoughts of our lifestyle and was courious to it and wondered..

Did Wendal stay there and be celibate [spelling?] or pretend his ways were changed when he was confronted..??..Was he confronted..??..Are the rules the same for males that believe they are gay..??..Sorry just trying to understand..I watch the documentary shows about the different religious beliefs and their practices..I pay attention to why the little girls are forced into sexual acts and i am still not understanding why..You answered that question already..Not an accepital one to me..That is just crazy and very a very weak excuse..

Ok now a word you used i would like to know the meaning to..
Abomination i have heard it being used in 2 different ways and maybe a 3rd with you using it..
My Xes family always put on a front that they were Christin people and believed in the Bible 100%..From what i saw they hid behind it..Every now and then they would quote something in there to make it seem like they knew what they were talking about..There was a disscussion with her sister about something in the straight life that was against the Bible and she said it was an abomination..Cant remember what it was but it was relating to the straight life and doing something wrong..There was also something going on in that family that was real creepy..They didnt like the idea that i asked her to move in with me and she did..Just creepy..Another time was relating to the gay lifestyle..It was mentioned that living the gay lifestyle was an abomination..Either way that word was used was not in a positive way..
Could you please explain to me exactly what that word abomination means..
I just want to understand this and eger to learn also..

Thanks again for your honesty..

s..

[yotlyolqualli]

An abomination is a word used in scripture, to describe an evil, vile, or disgusting act.

I used that word, because it is the word used by all christians, who believe homosexuality is wrong, to describe homosexuality.

I am very learned in scripture. The Mennonite church really pushes their members, especially children, to not only memorize scripture, but to search it for the truth. Unlike some faiths that preach on dogma and doctrine, the Mennonites rely more heavily on the scripture (Bible) itself.

Something I noticed in your posts, that I wanted to clarify. When I left the church, I did it in such a way, that I could still have "fellowship".. meaning contact and interaction with them, without making them choose between following the church's teaching, and following their heart where I was concerned. My family, while supportive, even to the point of inviting my (ex) g/f, to family functions and included her in family photo's, do NOT think that homosexuality is right, but love me in spite of what they feel about my sexuality. I wanted to make that known and understood.

Perhaps I'll start another thread, explaining more about how I came to embrace both my faith and my sexuality.

Again, thank you so much for your interest and for making me feel so welcome.

[rustedrims]

I thought you were left alone without any contact with anyone..
That is good that you are still welcomed in the family..
sorry..I missunderstood..

I was right on guessing that word ment something bad..
Living this lifestyle isnt bad to me ,,,it is comfortable..

[spritzerJ]

YO: thank you for sharing so openly. You have a beautiful story of love and faith. So grateful you are willing to share.
Thank you RR for being respectfully open.
This is a beautiful community here and the dialogue between you two is a wonderful example.

[rustedrims]

Thanks for the kind words Spritzer..
I like it in here and if there is something i dont understand i ask and it is
answered very honestly..Always ready to learn new things..

s..

[Quintease]

It took over a year for the lesbians to believe I was gay. Even while I was with my first girlfriend I still had doubters.

At the time it sucked but now, now I understand it. Lesbians are just like anyone, we all hate rejection. It's ok to say 'She left me because she wasn't into women and it's ok', but it's not ok. None of us are ever ok about being dumped. Yet so many non-lesbians walk into the lesbian community as women are so warm and welcoming and so understanding, only to walk out a few years later when they realise they love the company of women, not the sexuality.

I ''stole'' one of my exes from a girl, who we later found out had realised she was heterosexual while she was still with my friend. My friend couldn't face it but the rest of us knew. Did I feel bad about stealing her? Not really, especially when it came out later that she'd been having an affair with a boy behind my friends back. Did it make my friend feel better knowing that she'd moved on with someone else? Not really. She'd turned to me as she was feeling hurt, paranoid and rejected. To have all of that confirmed as a reality really stung. It's that kind of behaviour which makes gay women excessively cautious.

I'm not in the habit of stealing other peoples girlfriends btw, that was the one and only time.

[mariamma]

It took over a year for the lesbians to believe I was gay. Even while I was with my first girlfriend I still had doubters.

At the time it sucked but now, now I understand it. Lesbians are just like anyone, we all hate rejection. It's ok to say 'She left me because she wasn't into women and it's ok', but it's not ok. None of us are ever ok about being dumped. Yet so many non-lesbians walk into the lesbian community as women are so warm and welcoming and so understanding, only to walk out a few years later when they realise they love the company of women, not the sexuality.

I ''stole'' one of my exes from a girl, who we later found out had realised she was heterosexual while she was still with my friend. My friend couldn't face it but the rest of us knew. Did I feel bad about stealing her? Not really, especially when it came out later that she'd been having an affair with a boy behind my friends back. Did it make my friend feel better knowing that she'd moved on with someone else? Not really. She'd turned to me as she was feeling hurt, paranoid and rejected. To have all of that confirmed as a reality really stung. It's that kind of behaviour which makes gay women excessively cautious.

I'm not in the habit of stealing other peoples girlfriends btw, that was the one and only time.

This is all great and everything. I'm glad we're talking about this stuff but fuck people are emotionally retarded! Really....emotionally delayed, wtf people.
This is just my opinion. I expect no one to subscribe to it. But that 'girlfriend that was stolen' was not stolen since she did not belong to anyone but herself. She is not someone's property. She DID do a douchey and dishonest thing be being with more than 1 BUT ONLY IF SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE COMMITTED TO ONE.
This is why I think people should be more poly and honest about it. Then people won't have to be the romantic drama (emotional) focal point in the world and people can just be honest and clear about needs and desires (it's ok to have needs and desires. just be emotionally clean, non-douchey and speak when you know how you feel).
When we have sex, the potential for love is there. Love comes from the actions of hormones (O,V,T,E, prolactin and it's run by dopamine). Love feels holy and sacred since these are the same hormones and neurotransmitters that we connect to God or the Creator with. When anyone (elephants, humans, dogs) have sex they run these hormones, they create the potential for love. It's how one runs and guides oneself (hormonally and via which neurotransmitters in the brain) when you do have sex that determines whether or not one will be in love with said lover at some point.
Anyways, I guess I am better off being a cracked gem and unable to attract a lover. At least an emotionally stable lover. At least that's what I'll tell myself as I huddle alone in my bed :doh: :poc-bleah:

[mariamma]

I had no idea what your day was like..I thought your lifestyle was hidden because " you dont look gay".. Then as you go about your daily business people dont look-stare at you because your lifestyle isnt written all over your appearance..Every time i leave my house i out myself..{Like today,went to the gas station..I put on my dirty jeans cut off t-shirt baseball hat on backwards in my 4x4 truck..How much more can i do to get the looks or stares..Guess i am asking for it}..Anyway i always thought that was a good thing like flying under the radar then when you get home you can be who you are..I see now getting asked out by bio males can be overwhelming at times..I do get asked by a guy at work to go out all the time..Always have turned him down..He is a nice guy and i do like him but cant do it..Guess he doesnt see it..The agervation also that a butch doesnt take you serious when asked out has to get a little discouraging to..I live in little town USA and if a pretty girl asked me out i would think she was setting me up for something uncomfortable and i might turn her down..I had no idea..
I tell ya if you were walking with me down any street any where people would know whats up and that we were together by my apperance. I would be attentive to your needs like opening doors and stuff like that..Funny as i wrote that my mom and sister always step back so i can get the door..Just habbit for them and me..

s..

Thank you for your kindness and understanding. When we reach for each other, try to understand how each other think/feel, we make our hearts more complete and whole. I honor and respect the place in you that honors and respects me.
I do energy work, meaning I work on understanding and knowing hormones, neurotransmitters and the other trace protein structures that make us think/feel/do everything we think/feel/do.
We live in a world where T is more respected that E so when a woman is being her normal self, she is seen as making a man be attracted to her. His T is being normal, making him have that surge in energy (which often will initially manifest as a desire to fuck or fight). But one needs to be responsible for their own T reaction. Men are often let off the hook. And some feel offended when a woman doesn't want their T (or body or whatever).
This is the hardest part about being a femme. I am very maternal, I'm told I am radiant and men and children stop and stare at me often. Straight women my age or younger hate me. Older women love me because I talk about deep things they feel now that they're menopausal. The part about straight women hating me makes no sense since I'm missing teeth and you see it when I smile (HEY! I'm 1/2 English!). I feel not that beautiful. But beauty comes from the action of E. The markers of beauty in the body (soft, fair skin, long silky hair, big breasts and wide hip to waist ratio, that swaying walk, large luminous eyes, etc.) are expressions of the actions of estrogen from in utero to now. It is normal for T to react to seeing those expressions of E. It's how you handle it that makes you a man or a douche (which you obviously know already rustedrims).
I guess what I really wanted to get across is that we all have our struggles in dealing with emotions and other people. I appreciate gaining perspective and hearing about how others deal with life.

[Quintease]

But that 'girlfriend that was stolen' was not stolen since she did not belong to anyone but herself. She is not someone's property. She DID do a douchey and dishonest thing be being with more than 1 BUT ONLY IF SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE COMMITTED TO ONE.

I see your point as I'm all for poly, but even by my reckoning she was kinda stolen as she was supposed to be committed to someone in a monogamous relationship. Finding out afterwards that you were both cheating doesn't quite nullify the fact that you did it in the first place.

I guess the thing that crystallised my thoughts about it was when my friends ex confronted me much later, publicly, and after we had the big picture. It was a confrontation that went nowhere as I refused to engage. I don't think you have any right to be judgemental if you're the one who behaved badly first.

[ValKyrie]

I was raised in a fundamental christian religion that believes in a literal bible. I first felt the desire to kiss another girl when I was 8 years old and I made the mistake of telling a family member. I was severely chastised and told that I had to ask god for forgiveness and pray continuosly for him to change my heart. When I was 13 my father caught me in the closet with 2 of the neighbor girls. He sent me to reform school clear acrossed the US. I was there for 2 years. I went to a strict religious boarding academy for highschool, and there I met my first girlfriend. She was butch, but she would dress in dresses, etc. because it was expected of her. We both ended up marrying bio boys when we graduated, because we knew that if we were open we would both be shut out by our families, friends, everyone we knew. I am very femminine and always have been. Although I am pretty athletic and play some sports, and I don't mind getting dirty, or working on my car, I like to be girly about the way I do all of those things. I finally got the courage and confidence to come out last year. I left the church I grew up in several years ago, but it still has taken me a lot of time to make peace with the self shame so ingrained in me. I was married to a bio man (my second marriage) when I came out, although our relationship had been strictly platonic since the the birth of my youngest child (2 years old). He actually was the only person who didn't question the validity of me claiming to be a lesbian. I play roller derby and have a large group of friends who are on varrying degrees of the queer/gay continuim, but even to a lot of them, I feel like I have had to prove that I really am gay. My family has cut me off, not even allowing me to come to the funeral of a family member. My oldest child (from my first marriage), 13 year old, has not spoken with me since Thanksgiving. He is being raised in the same religion as I was and has been taught the same things about homosexuality being wrong.

I guess I've kind of gone off on a tangent here, my point is that I feel that now I actually have the courage and confidence to be my authentic self, I want everyone to know. It's frustrating to have bio men constantly hitting on me (sometimes they do it even when I'm out with my partner!) And if I tell them that I am a lesbian, they think it's hot and tell me that it's just because I haven't been with a "real" man. It feels really degrading. I am in an amazing relationship with a stone butch. People just assume that when I talk about dates, gifts, etc, that I am talking about a man. Even some of my lesbian friends have told me that I am not a real lesbian because my partner looks, talks, and acts like a boy. I guess I just want to feel validated. It's hard to feel like you don't fit in even with most of the people inside of your minority.

One of the sweetest things that my love has ever told me was that she never doubted that I was gay from the first time she saw me and I looked into her eyes.

[mariamma]

What a great tale. Thanks for sharing. And I do think it's great when I'm busted by gaydar. I used to hate it when I was with men (conscious choice....long story) but it is great when someone looks into your eyes and SEES you.
I was raised in a fundamental christian religion that believes in a literal bible. I first felt the desire to kiss another girl when I was 8 years old and I made the mistake of telling a family member. I was severely chastised and told that I had to ask god for forgiveness and pray continuosly for him to change my heart. When I was 13 my father caught me in the closet with 2 of the neighbor girls. He sent me to reform school clear acrossed the US. I was there for 2 years. I went to a strict religious boarding academy for highschool, and there I met my first girlfriend. She was butch, but she would dress in dresses, etc. because it was expected of her. We both ended up marrying bio boys when we graduated, because we knew that if we were open we would both be shut out by our families, friends, everyone we knew. I am very femminine and always have been. Although I am pretty athletic and play some sports, and I don't mind getting dirty, or working on my car, I like to be girly about the way I do all of those things. I finally got the courage and confidence to come out last year. I left the church I grew up in several years ago, but it still has taken me a lot of time to make peace with the self shame so ingrained in me. I was married to a bio man (my second marriage) when I came out, although our relationship had been strictly platonic since the the birth of my youngest child (2 years old). He actually was the only person who didn't question the validity of me claiming to be a lesbian. I play roller derby and have a large group of friends who are on varrying degrees of the queer/gay continuim, but even to a lot of them, I feel like I have had to prove that I really am gay. My family has cut me off, not even allowing me to come to the funeral of a family member. My oldest child (from my first marriage), 13 year old, has not spoken with me since Thanksgiving. He is being raised in the same religion as I was and has been taught the same things about homosexuality being wrong.

I guess I've kind of gone off on a tangent here, my point is that I feel that now I actually have the courage and confidence to be my authentic self, I want everyone to know. It's frustrating to have bio men constantly hitting on me (sometimes they do it even when I'm out with my partner!) And if I tell them that I am a lesbian, they think it's hot and tell me that it's just because I haven't been with a "real" man. It feels really degrading. I am in an amazing relationship with a stone butch. People just assume that when I talk about dates, gifts, etc, that I am talking about a man. Even some of my lesbian friends have told me that I am not a real lesbian because my partner looks, talks, and acts like a boy. I guess I just want to feel validated. It's hard to feel like you don't fit in even with most of the people inside of your minority.

One of the sweetest things that my love has ever told me was that she never doubted that I was gay from the first time she saw me and I looked into her eyes.

[boobookitty]

"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females."

I agree...
I just wanted to share a remiinder that not all lipstick lesbians are femme.
Most of the time when I read something about lipstick's --'lipstick lesbian' and 'femme' are treated as if the terms mean the same thing.

We are few in number, but there are for real Lipstick Butches, out here in the real world.

[nycfem]

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