What makes a Butch "Butch"

[Morgan]

I have thought about this for a while and would like to hear from others on what they think makes a Butch "Butch".

Is it the walk, the talk, the swagger, the clothes or is it something inside...

Can a Butch dress like a Femme and still be butch inside or is that just to weird? I know plenty of Femmes' who can fix a car or do manual labor. Who can put on a pair of jeans and t-shirt and look just as butch as some butches, but can a Butch put on a dress and heels, go out for a night on the town and still be a butch?

I believe they can, because it is not what is on the outside, but what is on the inside....

I would love to hear from others on this subject.

Hell maybe I will try this experiment just to see...."no pictures please".

[blush]

His huge cock


*waiting for Lady Snow*

[Goofy]

His huge cock


*waiting for Lady Snow*

Really baby?

This is what happens when I spend too much time studying

[Corkey]

Repeat after me, clothes do not make the person.
Now go write it a thousand times. :hangloose:

[blush]

Really baby?

This is what happens when I spend too much time studying

No, not REALLY, and you have studying too much!

[The_Lady_Snow]

His huge cock


*waiting for Lady Snow*



I would of said


Her...

[Toughy]

by definition butch = female masculinity and the ability to fight (and loose gracefully) Snow over who has the biggest cock...........:fastdraq:

[aishah]

i hate identity policing. i tend to take people on their word based on how they self-identify. to me, the clothes should not make the butch anymore than they make the femme, but i think femmes have a lot more freedom in wearing clothing that's traditionally considered "masculine" than butches do in terms of how we are treated at least. i've been told i'm not "not femme enough" plenty of times, but i feel like there's even more of a stigma against a butch dressing in ways that are deemed "feminine."

i like the idea of butch as female masculinity, but i also know many trans* male-id'ed folks who identify as butch (including my partner) and definitely don't identify with "female."

to me, femme is queer/subversive feminine identity. i know a lot of folks don't necessarily like the word queer, but in the sense of "not heteronormative" or "self-defined" or "radical" or "subversive" i think queer masculinity might also be one way of understanding butch. i know some people feel that butch and femme are gender identities and some people feel they are performative (and so there are normative ways to perform them)...for me, i see them as identities that can be performed in any way - so what you wear doesn't necessarily change the id.

edited - i just realized this is in the butch zone, i hope it's okay that i've posted here. apologies if i am speaking out of turn. <3

[bright_arrow]

I think part of it is the outside appearance. We judge, observe, based on what we see. While that does not make a person, sometimes it is what we base perceptions off of.

When I think of the word 'butch', the way they walk come to mind. You know what I mean, right? 'The walk'. Something about it just makes my heart beat a little faster ;)

When it comes to my partner, it's a multitude of looks, of actions, that make her butch. Does she dress masculine? Yes. From the tips of her cowboy boots to her baggy jeans, to the Skoal can in her back pocket. Button-down men's shirt with a tie, cowboy hat sitting just so. It's the way she drawls "Hey gorgeous", the way her lips turn up when she smiles at me, the smouldering look in her eyes when we make love. It's the way she wraps her arms around me when we go to bed at night, the caress of her fingertips on my face when she brushes my hair back, the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd. It's the loving way she brings me dinner to work, the "I love you" text messages throughout the day, the spontaneous love notes. I realize some of this do not 'mean' butch - they mean love, a partner - but it's what makes my partner 'my butch'.. so it counts, right?

*smiles*

[musicman]

Nothing MAKES me butch I just am. It's what I have always been. If you put a dress on me I'd still be butch. I'd just be a really bad drag queen.

Musicman

[girl_dee]

Nothing MAKES me butch I just am. It's what I have always been. If you put a dress on me I'd still be butch. I'd just be a really bad drag queen.

Musicman

THIS.

It's like asking a tree what makes it a tree.

[Words]

Can a Butch dress like a Femme and still be butch inside or is that just to weird?

If a butch chooses to wears a dress and heels hy/she isn't dressing 'like a femme', hy/she's dressing like a butch who likes dresses and heels.

Nothing weird about it.

Words

[princessbelle]

I am certainly not butch but what makes a butch to me is simple..

If someone says "I'm butch", then, they are butch. Period. Nothing else matters. If you stand in front of me with high heels on and beehive hair and say you are a butch, in my eyes, you are a butch.

Self IDs have become so important in my life over the years of learning and listening. If someone says they are male...they are male. If someone IDs as femme, they are femme.

We have the right to be whatever we want to be. And on top of this, it can evolve and grow and change. It is really beautiful to me.

It's simple really, or at least it is how i see it.

[firegal]

Nothing MAKES me butch I just am. It's what I have always been. If you put a dress on me I'd still be butch. I'd just be a really bad drag queen.

Musicman

I,m with you on the bad drag queen,My past partners/gf,s have all loooked so damn sexy in my shirts... but i,m thinking that me in theirs might not get the same reaction.Their is humor in this statement but also i really believe it has some truth to it.

[LaneyDoll]

Nothing MAKES me butch I just am. It's what I have always been. If you put a dress on me I'd still be butch. I'd just be a really bad drag queen.

Musicman

THIS.

It's like asking a tree what makes it a tree.



I agree! I cannot tell you "why" I identify as femme-I just do.

Additionally, I think it is easier to identify with someone based on their energy than it is their wardrobe. Yes, the wardrobe does provide clues but what if the clothes suit the situation more than they do the person? (I used to date a singer who donned what she referred to as "femme drag" to be in plays although she identified as "genderqueer.")

Just my random thinking...

Edit to add:

As far as this, "Can a Butch dress like a Femme and still be butch inside or is that just to weird," I think it is stereotypical to presume that one should present in a way that goes against their personal nature/style just because the world expects them to look a certain way.


:sparklyheart:

[Quintease]

I dated an idiot once who yelled at me that she was too butch to wear a bikini top. I could understand if we lived in a society where women risked being bashed for wearing bikini tops, but we were going to a beach with a bunch of gays, none of whom really cared about ID. She may have thought she was being big and butch, but how comfortable can you be about your ID if you have to rely on rigid clothing rules to get your message across?

[Novelafemme]

I dated an idiot once who yelled at me that she was too butch to wear a bikini top. I could understand if we lived in a society where women risked being bashed for wearing bikini tops, but we were going to a beach with a bunch of gays, none of whom really cared about ID. She may have thought she was being big and butch, but how comfortable can you be about your ID if you have to rely on rigid clothing rules to get your message across?

I love my honey in a bikini...top and bottoms! Of course she played water polo for years so she has those broad swimmers shoulders. :) I appreciate the rainbow of varieties that butches can come in...ALL people for that matter! To me it is all about respect, both for yourself and others, and checking your judgement at the door.

[Quintease]

I too am a fan of bikini tops. Not that you get to see them much in this impossibly cold country that I'm in.

[starryeyes]

Yesterday when I was driving to work, I was at a stop light. I was looking arous and spotted a cute butch in a jeep. Short crew cut, baseball hat, sweatshirt... Typical bucth presentation. When the light turned green, she put her hands on the steering wheel, and her fake nails were longer and more glittery than mine. For a sec I was like... Maybe she wasn't a "butch"... But then I was like, you go! Be who you wanna be. If you wanna dress up like a femme one night and go out on the town, do it! If you wanna dress up in a suit and tie the next, do it! We only live once and the best part of life of self expression. No one can change who you are inside.

Hugs

[bright_arrow]

I think part of it is the outside appearance. We judge, observe, based on what we see. While that does not make a person, sometimes it is what we base perceptions off of.

When I think of the word 'butch', the way they walk come to mind. You know what I mean, right? 'The walk'. Something about it just makes my heart beat a little faster ;)

When it comes to my partner, it's a multitude of looks, of actions, that make her butch. Does she dress masculine? Yes. From the tips of her cowboy boots to her baggy jeans, to the Skoal can in her back pocket. Button-down men's shirt with a tie, cowboy hat sitting just so. It's the way she drawls "Hey gorgeous", the way her lips turn up when she smiles at me, the smouldering look in her eyes when we make love. It's the way she wraps her arms around me when we go to bed at night, the caress of her fingertips on my face when she brushes my hair back, the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd. It's the loving way she brings me dinner to work, the "I love you" text messages throughout the day, the spontaneous love notes. I realize some of this do not 'mean' butch - they mean love, a partner - but it's what makes my partner 'my butch'.. so it counts, right?

*smiles*

ETA: I think it's the energy. Period!

[Novelafemme]

Yesterday when I was driving to work, I was at a stop light. I was looking arous and spotted a cute butch in a jeep. Short crew cut, baseball hat, sweatshirt... Typical bucth presentation. When the light turned green, she put her hands on the steering wheel, and her fake nails were longer and more glittery than mine. For a sec I was like... Maybe she wasn't a "butch"... But then I was like, you go! Be who you wanna be. If you wanna dress up like a femme one night and go out on the town, do it! If you wanna dress up in a suit and tie the next, do it! We only live once and the best part of life of self expression. No one can change who you are inside.

Hugs

I love it!! Gender bending is so fabulous :) My property manager is a big butch and has long, red, gorgeous nails. I asked her about them once and she said it just feels good to her. 'Nuff said :)

[Just_G]

I dated an idiot once who yelled at me that she was too butch to wear a bikini top. I could understand if we lived in a society where women risked being bashed for wearing bikini tops, but we were going to a beach with a bunch of gays, none of whom really cared about ID. She may have thought she was being big and butch, but how comfortable can you be about your ID if you have to rely on rigid clothing rules to get your message across?

Its because people might look and say upon first : She isnt butch...when in fact, she is, but cant make that known to people without having a certain look that she might feel conveys her butchness.

If someone wants to wear a csrtain type of clothing to convey this, then leave them be and let them do what makes them one with how they ID.
Its not about what they where, it is about how what they wear makes them feel. If that makes her an idiot, then I am one proud idiot in all my butchness. :winky:
Just my .02 :winky:

[luv2luvgirls]

I dont know what made me a butch... other than I was just born this way. If my mom put some frilly thing or dress on me as soon as I hit the door to go outside it came off.. I would run the hood neekid rather than wear frilly stuff, thats just how I was. I dont think you can lump us butches in a neat box like that,we have our own tastes and likes about everything *shrugs* even how we like to dress,or what type we are attracted to.

[Corkey]

I have nails most women would kill someone for, hard strong and chip free. Sometimes I let them grow to phenomenal lengths, sometimes I cut them down to nothing. They grow long in 1 week, keeping up is a chore and unless I'm writing a thesis they are pretty much not in the way. It has nothing to do with who I am.

[Parker]

I have nails most women would kill someone for, hard strong and chip free. Sometimes I let them grow to phenomenal lengths, sometimes I cut them down to nothing. They grow long in 1 week, keeping up is a chore and unless I'm writing a thesis they are pretty much not in the way. It has nothing to do with who I am.

Yeah - and I dont keep mine short because I'm butch - they just get in the way and make me crazy so I cut them down to nothing every few days. :winky:

[Quintease]

I have never had nails until now. So for most of my lesbian life I have not had nails or nail polish despite being femme. In fact a lesbian twigged me in a straight setting once, purely on the basis of my hands.

I'm femme and I walk like a man apparently. Somehow I can manage this even in heels, which I don't wear any more so I guess I walk like a man all the time now.

My hubby used to have long hair in his previous life, it was the only 'feminine' thing about him. Obviously now it's shortshort, but he still misses his hair sometimes.

Hair, nails, walk, none of it really has a 'gender'. Anyone can 'drink like a man' or 'cry like a girl'. Yet even though our gender attributes are all mixed up, we all still know if we're male or female/ masculine or feminine/ gay or straight. It's strange that we just know, it's strange that we need to have these distinctions. It's an interesting question. What is a butch if it has nothing to with hair, clothing or sex? What is it that defines her and contrasts her to a femme? I wish I knew the answer to that.

[Cin]

I,m with you on the bad drag queen,My past partners/gf,s have all loooked so damn sexy in my shirts... but i,m thinking that me in theirs might not get the same reaction.Their is humor in this statement but also i really believe it has some truth to it.

This got me thinking how for some people it doesn’t seem to be okay for masculine people of any ilk including butches to wear feminine clothing or participate in any ritual deemed feminizing, but for feminine people there doesn’t seem to be this same rigidity. I don’t know if it has to do with masculine borders being patrolled more stringently but that would be my guess. Male has more currency than female so it stands to reason it would be more highly valued and more aggressively monitored. I believe this is what is behind the hatred of both female masculinity and masculine femininity in general.

I remember a past partner of mine expressing her displeasure and concern over my wearing blouses to work ( i changed jobs while we were together and had to get dressed up more). She felt it took away from my butchness. I doubt much of anything could take away my butchness but that’s just me.

I also painted my toenails orange one summer. I thought it looked good with my tan. Again my partner was not a fan. I have never done my fingernails I just don't think I would like it much or do it well. I had enough trouble coloring inside the lines as a kid. Toenails are more forgiving.

My wife doesn't care what I do. She has encouraged me to let my hair grow cause she loves the curls. I don't get the feeling she things my butchness is connected to anything outside myself.

[Dude]

what makes a decent human being
that's the kind of thread that would feel new to me.
there may suddenly be a "need" to start a femme version of this thread
sigh (maybe there already is one?)

we all have our own types we are attracted to
and hopefully they evolve as we do (hopefully)
period.
the end.

I think threads like this set up more of a competition (undercurrent) amongst each other.
At the end of the day Who cares how you present ,just be ok with yourself ( an inside job )
Insecurities ,jealousy and in fighting. I've seen it, felt it and know it's true.
I could give a fuck who you (the general you) are dating ,because guess what, I don't want her.
That's not how I roll or the kind of human being I am.

I can count the butch friends I have on one hand.(after many years online
and in real life)
They are all secure in themselves and know I am not a threat to their relationships or "butch-hood" <eyeroll>
I could give a fuck what they wear swimming and would not diss them.
There is no weird (frat boy) butch posturing... I hate that more than anything. <puke>
Or leg lifting , a trait I've seen in all genders <ew>

I have (in my many years) been attracted to femme's with short nails and short hair <gasp>
brains, compassion, integrity and humor are hot.
("be about something")
It takes more than getting your nails done and hairs did to keep me interested. call me crazy :seconddoh:
I have many a gay man crush based of their honesty first and their pretty eyes or a nice ass second.
Real allies in this life? I dig them. period.
on a bit of a roll today
pardon me :coffee:

[~ocean]

:) "applauds" you Dude, very well said :)

[macele]

my first recalls of being emotionally attracted to women were teachers in 3rd and 5th grades. one teacher was sweet. the other was strict. it was about the way they treated me with a feminine way of affection and caring. these were some the first feelings that i had, .. knowing but unknowing to an extent, ... that i am a lesbian.

i've never changed a tire or changed the oil. i like sundresses. i'm quiet, ... i don't make a scene. what i do in life is preference. what we like to do or what we like to wear/appearance or how we act, ... varies. we are individuals. our personalities are attracted to what feels natural, at ease. or simply what we think makes us look good. whatever gets the groove on. choice and natural meet up to form indiviualism.

it's true, energy differentiates butch and femme. i am a lesbian butch. i was born with some masculine traits. not entirely. for example, i am an emotional person. the tears roll so easy. that's not thought of as masculine. a butch is a female with some maleness about her. just a woman with a bit of butchiness. and with that said, i'm under the impression that some femmes like it. that's a good deal from where i am.

[SweetJane]

Being butch or femme is not a matter of outward accoutrements (dress, hair, nails). And sometimes it isn't even a matter of self-identity. It is truly a matter of energy.

Many butches are indeed female-bodied; others find themselves along a range of trans-expression (whether they are still female-bodied or not). All of them generate male energy, whether in a swagger, a smirk, a look, a presence. It is an intrinsic part of their very core.

Put one of them in a dress or red nails. They're still butch.

For me, though, to see their delicious maleness transposed over a fleeting whisper of femaleness that sometimes passes across their faces is...... well....swoonable. It is a soft expression of vulnerability within a strong persona.

Damn...

[Merlin]

Being butch is every fibre of my make up, it's who I am. Put me in a dress and I am a butch in a dress. Dress me in a starched white shirt,cuff links,tie, waistcoat,jacket and trousers and I feel like its a second skin, a glove, moulding my body and exuding my confidence.

I love being butch - its who I am.

[Just_G]

Butch just radiates from me. I AM butch, I was born butch...not taught how to be butch. It is who I am, how I act, how I dress, and it is tattooed on me. :fastdraq:

I take pride in being butch. I have never known how to act like some females...which to ME, that would be like doing my hair, nails, liking to shop, wearing make-up, accessorising with jewelry, etc. I know that there are even some men that are good at those things....I am not.

The funny thing is, there are some things that a lot of butches like to do that I don't care to do; like working on cars....I cannot stand to get grease and dirt all over my hands and around my cuticles. I sit back and think my buddy Cheech is REALLY butch because he does like to work on cars and stuff, but then he will turn around and say that he thinks I am REALLY butch because I am good at building things and good with tools. We have had this discussion a gazillion times over beer and wings. :winky:

I could build a room addition before I could change my oil....lol

Anyway, as far as what makes a butch a butch.....well, that is up to the individual person. I don't really think that anything MAKES someone butch, I think it is just something that is very natural and it comes from within one's heart and soul....their core.

[firegal]

what makes a decent human being
that's the kind of thread that would feel new to me.
there may suddenly be a "need" to start a femme version of this thread
sigh (maybe there already is one?)

we all have our own types we are attracted to
and hopefully they evolve as we do (hopefully)
period.
the end.

I think threads like this set up more of a competition (undercurrent) amongst each other.
At the end of the day Who cares how you present ,just be ok with yourself ( an inside job )
Insecurities ,jealousy and in fighting. I've seen it, felt it and know it's true.
I could give a fuck who you (the general you) are dating ,because guess what, I don't want her.
That's not how I roll or the kind of human being I am.

I can count the butch friends I have on one hand.(after many years online
and in real life)
They are all secure in themselves and know I am not a threat to their relationships or "butch-hood" <eyeroll>
I could give a fuck what they wear swimming and would not diss them.
There is no weird (frat boy) butch posturing... I hate that more than anything. <puke>
Or leg lifting , a trait I've seen in all genders <ew>

I have (in my many years) been attracted to femme's with short nails and short hair <gasp>
brains, compassion, integrity and humor are hot.
("be about something")
It takes more than getting your nails done and hairs did to keep me interested. call me crazy :seconddoh:
I have many a gay man crush based of their honesty first and their pretty eyes or a nice ass second.
Real allies in this life? I dig them. period.
on a bit of a roll today
pardon me :coffee:

I hear you and agree on many of your statements. Ive had to remind myself that alot of these threads even amongst the controversy or undertones have folks reading/looking at them some of whom are brand spanking new to this site.Some of them growing,learning,maturing,absorbing.Who maybe need to hear both sides and/or need to hear someone else thoughts challenged.

I get reminded regularly that "its not always about you' which helps me realize somebody else may benefit from this convo.

[Parker]

Being butch or femme is not a matter of outward accoutrements (dress, hair, nails). And sometimes it isn't even a matter of self-identity. It is truly a matter of energy.

Many butches are indeed female-bodied; others find themselves along a range of trans-expression (whether they are still female-bodied or not). All of them generate male energy, whether in a swagger, a smirk, a look, a presence. It is an intrinsic part of their very core.

Put one of them in a dress or red nails. They're still butch.

For me, though, to see their delicious maleness transposed over a fleeting whisper of femaleness that sometimes passes across their faces is...... well....swoonable. It is a soft expression of vulnerability within a strong persona.

Damn...

Not do get into semantics, but I have to disagree with your use of the terms male and maleness when describing all butches.

I have masculine energy and exude masculinity, but I am not a man or male and do not exude anything to do with men, males, or maleness.

Again, it may be semantics to some, but to me, there is a huge difference between masculine and male - I am the former but I will never be the latter. :)

[Dude]

I hear you and agree on many of your statements. Ive had to remind myself that alot of these threads even amongst the controversy or undertones have folks reading/looking at them some of whom are brand spanking new to this site.Some of them growing,learning,maturing,absorbing.Who maybe need to hear both sides and/or need to hear someone else thoughts challenged.

I get reminded regularly that "its not always about you' which helps me realize somebody else may benefit from this convo.

I guess I should have been more clear with my post as I did not
mean any offense to the Original Post.
I do get there are people here of all ages and growing processes.
My post was not meant to minimize anyone but just an observation
I've had over the years.
I could almost bet in a day or so a "gold star butch" will appear who
is the greatest butch of all ( in their own mind) and I think that
kind of posturing is gross.
I like to think someone might get some comfort from what old goats have
to say as well.
I'm not trying to shut down the conversation at all, in fact.
I like to think there is room for everyone here and I have earned my seat here
as well, thanks.

[firegal]

I guess I should have been more clear with my post as I did not
mean any offense to the Original Post.
I do get there are people here of all ages and growing processes.
My post was not meant to minimize anyone but just an observation
I've had over the years.
I could almost bet in a day or so a "gold star butch" will appear who
is the greatest butch of all ( in their own mind) and I think that
kind of posturing is gross.
I like to think someone might get some comfort from what old goats have
to say as well.
I'm not trying to shut down the conversation at all, in fact.
I like to think there is room for everyone here and I have earned my seat here
as well, thanks.I'm thinking were r on same page. as i stated in my agreement with your statements...

My comments werent in opposition as you also state yours werent either.

just sharing information, points of view and thoughts which is what i love about all these threads.

[girl_dee]

Not do get into semantics, but I have to disagree with your use of the terms male and maleness when describing all butches.

I have masculine energy and exude masculinity, but I am not a man or male and do not exude anything to do with men, males, or maleness.

Again, it may be semantics to some, but to me, there is a huge difference between masculine and male - I am the former but I will never be the latter. :)


Agree completely, to assume butch = male energy is grossly incorrect!

Masculinity is an energy all on it's own, and it's not owned by the male population.

Not all butches are or want to be male identified or invoke maleness, they are quite happy being a female identified butch.

[Corkey]

My sisters and brothers all agree, Butch is owned by those who are.

[macele]

well i'll say on my part that i shouldn't have used the word maleness. i don't even like it lol. i certainly didn't mean in any way that a butch is male. i just associated the two words together maleness/masculine. i can understand how some could be offended by either word. i don't have a male sex organ and i do not want a male sex organ. it would probably serve me well to just identify as a woman.

[girl_dee]

This got me thinking how for some people it doesn’t seem to be okay for masculine people of any ilk including butches to wear feminine clothing or participate in any ritual deemed feminizing, but for feminine people there doesn’t seem to be this same rigidity. I don’t know if it has to do with masculine borders being patrolled more stringently but that would be my guess. Male has more currency than female so it stands to reason it would be more highly valued and more aggressively monitored. I believe this is what is behind the hatred of both female masculinity and masculine femininity in general.

I remember a past partner of mine expressing her displeasure and concern over my wearing blouses to work ( i changed jobs while we were together and had to get dressed up more). She felt it took away from my butchness. I doubt much of anything could take away my butchness but that’s just me.

I also painted my toenails orange one summer. I thought it looked good with my tan. Again my partner was not a fan. I have never done my fingernails I just don't think I would like it much or do it well. I had enough trouble coloring inside the lines as a kid. Toenails are more forgiving.

My wife doesn't care what I do. She has encouraged me to let my hair grow cause she loves the curls. I don't get the feeling she things my butchness is connected to anything outside myself.


i'm so glad you posted this. i was wondering the same thing. i have also been told that something i did made me *less femme*. i don't have long nails, that was *less femme*.

Also, When femmes dress up in the butch's white cotton shirt and wear boxers it's all cutesy but if a butch wants to grown long hair or have a manicure they lose the butch card? i don't think so!

My butch could wear/do/say/grow anything She wants and She is still butch. i could pull the engine from your truck, run power tools, curse like a sailor, while wearing Carharts and a baseball cap and not be anything but femme because that is who i am.

[Corkey]

Knows Butches with long hairs, n they are some good lookin' Butches. Says the confident one over here in da corner.

[Ebon]

I'm sorry I have never seen a butch wear a dress and heels without it being a costume of some sort. Or they have to wear it for work or military uniform (if they still have to do that).

As far as what makes me butch is something that I feel. It just is. I don't feel comfortable being any other way.

[boobookitty]

I am feMALE
... I have ovaries and womb
I am a woMAN
... I have breast, I have nursed the baby born
I am MALE ID'ed transgender
... and such I will stay
I am masculine energy and desire...
... within a bio-female form

I am Butch.

[Martina]

To me it has to be how they ID because i do not always feel the energy. i don't. And sometimes (unfortunately), i don't get the mutual recognition and respect that is the most important thing to me. There is something about being recognized as a femme and having someone know what that means. They could be butch or femme. If they are butch, they may be a butch who prefers butches (as long as they don't dislike femmes), and i still feel that recognition, that being at home.

A butch recognizes me as a femme -- and honors that. And as a femme, i recognize who she is, and i honor that. That's the most important thing to me.

[mariamma]

A butch recognizes me as a femme -- and honors that. And as a femme, i recognize who she is, and i honor that. That's the most important thing to me.
YES! I live for that feeling....being seen as I am. *Le sigh of contentment*

[Cin]

I think threads like this set up more of a competition (undercurrent) amongst each other.



I could almost bet in a day or so a "gold star butch" will appear who
is the greatest butch of all ( in their own mind) and I think that
kind of posturing is gross.


I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.

[BullDog]

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

[Novelafemme]

I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.

I love this! Thank you Miss Tick :)

[Kobi]

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.


Thank you for this. I love when people see me and appreciate me for the woman I am.

[macele]

this thread has made me rethink the word butch. and i've decided that i will not ever use the word masculine or any word that is considered a synonym/related to the word masculine by most dictionaries, ... when talking about a butch. a traditional word i am throwing out the window, so to speak.

[aishah]

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

i love this post. <3

it reminds me of an article my partner shared with me recently which talked about the idea that some folks have that transitioning is somehow the "completion" of butchness...so all butch lesbians should essentially want to be trans*/want to be "real men." i've seen this stereotype especially coming from straight folks who misunderstand butch/femme and trans* identities, but i feel like it is related to the masculine/maleness supremacy in our society and the idea that we should all essentially have penis envy and want to be as cool as "real men" (yuck). to me this idea is harmful to everyone, and it misinterprets our queer identities.

(the article is here (http://www.butchwonders.com/1/post/2012/01/why-arent-all-butches-trans.html) - it's written by a female butch - if anyone wants to check it out.)

[Novelafemme]

this thread has made me rethink the word butch. and i've decided that i will not ever use the word masculine or any word that is considered a synonym/related to the word masculine by most dictionaries, ... when talking about a butch. a traditional word i am throwing out the window, so to speak.

My partner would LOVE this :)

[BullDog]

I personally do embrace masculinity as part of myself- female masculinity- but not all butches do.

Thank you aishah for that article. I completely relate to it.

I think genderqueer is a perfectly fine identity for those who resonate with it. It doesn't resonate with me at all. I have experienced times when people try to place butch under some sort of GenderQueer, Transgender and/or Masculine of Center "Umbrella." While I believe the attempts are made with good intentions towards being very inclusive, a big problem I have encountered with this is woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront. At least that has how it has felt to me. It hasn't felt "woman friendly" at all to me when attempts are made to use it as an umbrella term. Now an individual identifying as genderqueer is of course their identity so that is not at all problematic to me.

[starryeyes]

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe :)

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

[Novelafemme]

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe :)

That question makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

[Cin]

I don’t think either male or female is necessarily synonymous with the identity of butch. For some butch is a gender unto itself. Others see a male or female identity as something to add to butch. To me the definition of butch and butch energy is fairly encompassed in the term female masculinity but I get that’s not for everyone.

I agree with bulldog’s assessment that woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront, as per usual.

The hierarchy I think is more a natural extension of a misogynistic society that places more value on anything male than it is a consciously held belief in the superiority of male id’d butches or any other masculine identity over female id’d butches. Whether this is better or not is debatable. At least a consciously held belief is owned and therefore can be challenged. The sneaky ways misogyny can control some of our thought processes is difficult to break through.

[BullDog]

I don’t think either male or female is necessarily synonymous with the identity of butch. For some butch is a gender unto itself. Others see a male or female identity as something to add to butch. To me the definition of butch and butch energy is fairly encompassed in the term female masculinity but I get that’s not for everyone.

I agree with bulldog’s assessment that woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront, as per usual.

The hierarchy I think is more a natural extension of a misogynistic society that places more value on anything male than it is a consciously held belief in the superiority of male id’d butches or any other masculine identity over female id’d butches. Whether this is better or not is debatable. At least a consciously held belief is owned and therefore can be challenged. The sneaky ways misogyny can control some of our thought processes is difficult to break through.

Yes I agree with this. I don't believe people go around thinking oh well male id butches are superior. It is that butch gets defined on male terms because male is valued over female- and we get that from being in a misogynistic society.

Also despite all the talk about how horrible "the binary" is people still seem to have a hard time separating masculinity from male or femininity from female . I think it is abundantly clear that there are men with feminine energy and women with masculine energy and plenty of people with a mixture and who don't clear identify with being strictly male or female. Yet we tend to fall back to what we have been raised with. Again, I believe one of the major points of identifying as butch, femme or other gender identities is that we are forging our own paths.

Butch has everything to do with being a lesbian/queer masculine female for me- that is what butch is to me. It isn't for everyone. Butch is obviously not synonymous with female- not all females identify as butch and not all butches identify as female.

[LaneyDoll]

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe :)

I hate that question.

It is right up there with the statement "well if you like women then you have not had the right man." Luckily, I have a great reply for that.

:sparklyheart:

[Cin]

Butch is obviously not synonymous with female- not all females identify as butch and not all butches identify as female.

Obviously. LOL. You are right. It was perhaps not the right word to choose. I meant neither male nor female are a necessary addition to the identity of butch and that butch is not automatically considered a female or male identity. Although for me it is a female identity, as I am female and a woman as well as a butch and a feminist and a lesbian.

And I do identify with genderqueer but I don't identify as genderqueer because as a woman there is something about it that feels a tad erasing. But I am eternally evolving so perhaps i will find a way to reconcile the two. My feelings are probably left over from when people argued over whether femme could be a genderqueer identity.

[Dude]

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?
<cringe> I really hate the stereotyping. ALL of it.
Knight in shining armor bs saving the damsel in distress fantasy?
really?
Can we stop with the harlequin stuff ,one day? please?! snort! :runforhills:


Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing (f)

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

[Novelafemme]

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?
<cringe> I really hate the stereotyping. ALL of it.
Knight in shining armor bs saving the damsel in distress fantasy?
really?
Can we stop with the harlequin stuff ,one day? please?! snort! :runforhills:


Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing (f)

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone
I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

Love this!!!

[Toughy]

this thread has made me rethink the word butch. and i've decided that i will not ever use the word masculine or any word that is considered a synonym/related to the word masculine by most dictionaries, ... when talking about a butch. a traditional word i am throwing out the window, so to speak.

Why? I don't understand how you came to this conclusion.

[thedivahrrrself]

What makes a butch "butch" to me is whether or not he/she/hy ID's that way.

I know a ton of lesbians who wear mens' clothes, sport short hair, maybe even pack once in a while, but they are not "butch", and they generally resent the term.

Butch is that certain je ne sais quoi that cannot be defined, and it is different within each butch person. Some are "soft", most are hard, at least at one point or another :tease: , but there is something about them that makes them Butch, and they have usually almost always been or at least felt that way.

They could wear a dress and heels, but, at least in my experience, they usually can't walk for shit. LOL

Butches are like fine chocolates, each one unique, each delicious in their own way.

[thedivahrrrself]

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?



Well, Dude, I like to think I do! But I am certainly not helpless.

I'll just say I can sew

You have no idea how sexy that is, Dude! I'd give my big toe to be able to sew! If there is something you cannot do, I will so trade you something (cookies, maybe?) for your sewing services. LOL Stereotypes are usually there for a reason, but they are never all-encompassing. If someone does not appreciate your softer side, well she's not good enough for you anyway.

:)

[Leigh]

What makes a Butch, "Butch"?

Easy .............

Whatever makes them who they are!

Seriously, what makes someone a butch is no different than what makes the rest of us human ~ we are who we are, that's good enough for me :)

[Apocalipstic]

Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing (f)

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post! :)

[Dude]

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post! :)

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry :tea:

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table :koolaid:
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages :rrose:
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

[Apocalipstic]

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry :tea:

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table :koolaid:
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages :rrose:
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

I did not mean to sound like you were being insensitive :), just wanted you to know its hard for all of us.:sunglass:

Nah, I was cool in Vegas, I had a date. New Orleans was really rough though. We've all come a lonnnng way since then. The Reunions are wayy more friendly on all fronts. :)

[Deborah]

Yes. As a Femme, I see this all the time within our community. I don't care if you choose to or have to shave every day, or sleep in your Engineer boots. What I care about is how you behave towards others. None of these identities/Genders should be a competition.

If I were in the dating pool, I would be looking for a masculine person who treated everyone respectfully and was secure in who they were, shared similar goals, was emotionally available, didn't have a real messy past and was able to build relationships with my friends, regardless of how they identified because they trusted me.

That Butch/Man in the corner with a beer making snide remarks about "chicks" and blustering about how they are so masculine they "would never..." -- I don't want that.


Glad you're not in the dating pool...cause you just described my man Mr Princess himself...just call me lucky :)

[Deborah]

I agree with theDevilherself...I have no issue with 'ooozing femmeness' in fact its part of who I am...but dont think for a second I am a damzel in distress or looking for a night in shining armor - I can hold my own with just about anyone. I love my nails done and my hair did and have brains and skills to go with it! I been called Daddi before but only once...but I could be one if I wanted. I am a strong femme and I like a strong partner, one that is strong enough to be the most sensitive person there is and that is whether they're butch, ftm or femme...I don't like people that judge books by their cover or judge books they haven't read...I love the diversity of this life and I am still learning what all this means and some of you have been here a long time and still seem to be evolving which I consider growth...what I have learned is all these 'labels' mean very different things to each of us and none of us are wrong about 'who we think/feel we are' the wrongness comes when we impose our definition on someone else that doesn't feel the same way...

[Deborah]

I agree with this Apocalipstic - it's always been hard for me to have femme friends even in the straight world...and I am sure I was partly responsible for that...at this point in my life and this stage of the game I don't take all that stuff so seriously or myself for that matter and I find it much easier to know who is real and who isn't and I love my femme friends....sadly right now most all of them live in Tennessee <3



Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post! :)

[Dude]

first off ,to me ,straight women are Not femme's

secondly this is a butch thread , not a man thread

and that's all I'm gonna say ( I think ) :|

[Toughy]

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

[Billy]

first off ,to me ,straight women are Not femme's

secondly this is a butch thread , not a man thread

and that's all I'm gonna say ( I think ) :|

I quess you get to say what people can and cannot say ....It's not a femme thread either but you had a lot to say about them ..But I see it's what ever YOU chose it to be ...

[CherylNYC]

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I really, really like this thread because of this post, and the vast majority of the other posts in this thread that say similar things. Many butch posters have gone to great lengths to say in ways both simple and complex that their female bodies carry their butch-i-tude. That being butch is, for them, masculine energy in a woman's body. That being butch means simply being themselves.

That's super cool. (And super hot.) What's not cool is that so many butches have been made to feel defensive about being both butch and a woman. I wish it were not so. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the bs disappear. Unfortunately, the only thing I can do is continually offer my unquestioning support. You're all perfect and beautiful exactly the way you are.

[Cin]

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I guess that happens because some butches identify as male. And male seems to overpower and sometimes erase female. So it feels as though we are put on the defensive. And often we do have to be on the defensive because the female part of female masculinity gets lost in male posturing and bravado.

Yet the reality is that some butches don’t identify as women and some don’t even identify as female. Personally I believe butch is a default female or woman identity. It is about butch masculinity carried in a female body. It is most definitely for me about queering masculinity in a female body. And there certainly is a difference between masculine and male/man. Yet there are butches who identify as male or man. I just don’t see this as having to do with a butch identity. To me it is another identifier used in conjunction with but not a requisite part of being butch. Yet it is a part of that butch.

I remember being told growing up that my actions were not the actions of a woman. I was told that little girls didn’t act in whatever way I was acting. I finally explained that this couldn’t be true because I was in fact a girl and I was doing whatever it was I was doing so consequently girls did indeed do it. I remember how that felt when someone tried to take female from me. I am a butch but I am also a woman. Anyway knowing how that felt, I wouldn’t tell anyone else who they can be or that any action or identity takes away another. I could never say butches cannot be male or man. I just don’t think that being male or man is connected to their butchness.

Butch does not equal male or man. Man is not butch taken to its logical conclusion. Neither is male. Butch is about female masculinity or masculinity queered. But masculinity can be queered without a female identity and I don't think that erases butch. Perhaps then it is not exactly female masculinity but it is queered masculinity. And that is not your straight man’s masculinity. It is quite a different animal indeed.

[Corkey]

I am Butch and TG and male and not woman, but female bodied. My identity does not put me anywhere on a spectrum, it puts me in a circle, for I AM HUMAN.

[Dude]

yup , I'm the ruler of the thread :sunglass:

what I wrote WAS ==> to me (for me, my opinion, etc.)

no show here, folks

the end

put me on ignore , if I bother you so fucking much

[Glenn]

yup , I'm the ruler of the thread :sunglass:

I said ==> to me

no show here, folks

the end

put me on ignore , if I bother you so fucking much

Uh..that would put you in default Dude.

[Ebon]

I am Butch and TG and male and not woman, but female bodied. My identity does not put me anywhere on a spectrum, it puts me in a circle, for I AM HUMAN.

First and fucking foremost human. I agree brother Corkey!

[Mr. Cynthia]

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I think you're quite clear, Toughy.

I was born butch but I didn't really want to be male. I wanted to be a female who could wear what she wants, cut her hair like she wants, work and play like she wants and love the kind of women she wants. Society makes the cognitive leap from all that to "oh, she wants to be a man."

I ID as a bulldyke because the term connotes "lesbian" (which includes "woman" by default) and "butch" all in one tidy little word that just rolls off my tongue...especially in the presence of earnest straight people trying really hard to be cool :cigar2:

[Corkey]

From my perspective, perhaps its time we dropped the linear and embraced the circular. I know I'd be happy to do so.

[Billy]

yup , I'm the ruler of the thread :sunglass:

what I wrote WAS ==> to me (for me, my opinion, etc.)

no show here, folks

the end

put me on ignore , if I bother you so fucking much


LOL .......You don't bother Me at all . I find you very funny !
Carry on oh mighty ruler !

[~ocean]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Vive la difference'~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ocean

[Medusa]

DUDE and BILLY -

You both have been told before to put each other on ignore. The next one of you who takes a swipe, posts to the other person, quotes the other person, or drags this bullshit to another thread will receive an immediate time out.

You both are better than this and it's embarrassing to see two people I respect slapping the shit out of each other in a thread where people are trying to have a conversation.

STOP IT IMMEDIATELY.

No more warnings.

Thanks,
Angie

[mariamma]

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post! :)

I love sisterhood! Bonding does seem easier for femmes (minus the catty back-stabbing) which is why I tend to hang with other femmes.
No one has mentioned something obvious to me. We are engendered with masculine or feminine characteristics via the actions of T and E. Ones normal endogenous levels will effect whether or not you have mild or bodacious secondary sex characteristics (butch swagger or wide hips that swing when you walk, etc.).
In this case, yes, butchness will come out the pores. T, E and many other hormones do come out your pores. It's sexy as frak! to a femme like moi and makes me wax girly (I'll even get a high lilt to my speech and laugh).
In closing, I just want to say again....bodacious. Thank you very much. :poc-bleah:

[Reader]

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I really, really like this thread because of this post, and the vast majority of the other posts in this thread that say similar things. Many butch posters have gone to great lengths to say in ways both simple and complex that their female bodies carry their butch-i-tude. That being butch is, for them, masculine energy in a woman's body. That being butch means simply being themselves.

That's super cool. (And super hot.) What's not cool is that so many butches have been made to feel defensive about being both butch and a woman. I wish it were not so. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the bs disappear. Unfortunately, the only thing I can do is continually offer my unquestioning support. You're all perfect and beautiful exactly the way you are.

What great posts. Thanks for posting these sentiments so well Toughy and Cheryl.

[Toughy]

I am a young masculine girl....I play bball, soccer, volleyball, softball, track/field....pick a ball and I can play with it..................

I get the masculine part.,....I do really live it.....it lives with me every day with every gesture, movement. I am masculine.....there is no doubt.

Who will help me find my feminine that lives with my masculine?

When I came out, I was blessed to have a femme who loved my masculinity and understood my femininity and helped me put them together.

I will always forever give thanks to her

[rustedrims]

Going to go back a few posts and comment on the hair cut and Butches wearing a dress..I kinda know something about both subjects..

Is a butch any less a butch if they are wearing a dress..??..I say no..My little brother was getting married and my mom,sister and grandma was giving me a real hard time about what i was going to wear..They were pushing me real hard on wearing a dress..I wasnt in the wedding so couldnt i wear what i want..??..Well took it as a dare and me and my girlfriend at the time went shopping for a dress for me..Yep bought one and wore it..I felt out of place so bad that i was very uncomfortable..It seemed like everyone came to the wedding to see if i was going to wear that dress..My girlfriend liked seeing me in it..Couldnt wait till i could take it off..Ok i got the dress and wearing it and my sister makes the comment on how i was walking..REALLY..?..I put the dress on and it still wasnt enough..I cant change the walk/swagger even in a dress..I wasnt any less a Butch in a dress,,just an uncomfortable one..That was about 25-26 years ago..They are still married..

A few years later my older sister was getting married..Here we go again..This time she asked me to be in the wedding..That was quite an ordeal because they were going to get married on my 21st birthday..WHAT.!!.You are going to make me wear a dress on my 21st BIRTHDAY and plan my day according to what you want me to do..Ummm NO.!.I turned down the offer to be in the wedding because of my birthaday and didnt want to wear a dress the whole entire day..On my Birthday.!!.That caused a bunch of trouble..She wouldnt change the wedding day and i wouldnt change my mind..My Butchness was fully entact that day..My other sisters boyfriend took me across the street and bought me my first legal drink while the pictures were being taken..Think we had a few..That was about 20-22 years ago..They are still married..

Yet another wedding..Another sister is getting married..She asked me to be in her wedding and i accepted..We had to wear a light pink dress with a big bow on our a#ses..Not a pretty sight or dress..None of us liked it..It was very low cut and if we bent over far enough you could see all the way to our bellybuttons..Oh yeah flower in our hair..I took that out imediately or as soon as i could..Very uncomfortable and i felt like an idiot..Again i was told to walk like a girl..How can i do that being a butch..??..Anyway it was time to take that dress off..I went out to my car and got my other clothes..Went in the bathroom to change and my grandma was in there..I said i am sorry grandma and that da#n hoop dress went right over my head and on the floor..There i was naked infront of grandma..I felt more comfortable like that than with that dress on..Put on my tightest pair of Levis and my "dress up t-shirt" with my hiking boots..Went out sat with my cousins and said now it is time to drink..My cousin smiled put a cup in front of me and filled that thing up..That marriage was over less than 3 years..{told ya,but what do i know}..

Now the hair..I prefer a little length..When i was little mom forced me to have short hair..It was her decision on how i was to wear my hair not mine..I didnt like the way it looked on me..Thought it made my ears stick out..So i like my hair to cover my ears..Told my hair girl the story and she cuts/trims accordinly..

Now with that being said..Through all those dresses and longer hair..I am still a butch on the inside and able to express it on the outside..No one can change that with a dress..It is what i feel and what i am..I am a Butch woman and very secure with that..

Kinda funny.. A few months ago i had to attend a funeral of a close family member..The kids were taking bets on what i was going to wear..Not a dress this time it was dress pants or the Levis..I picked the Levis and a shirt i ironed..They told me about it and who won..We laughed about it..The kids were not around during the dress time..They do know i will not be wearing a dress at any time even on Halloween..They know i am a Butch and respect that as it is and they dont care how i walk either..Love those kids..

sorry it got kinda long
thanks for reading

s..

[Mr. Cynthia]

Going to go back a few posts and comment on the hair cut and Butches wearing a dress..I kinda know something about both subjects..

Is a butch any less a butch if they are wearing a dress..??..I say no..My little brother was getting married and my mom,sister and grandma was giving me a real hard time about what i was going to wear..They were pushing me real hard on wearing a dress..I wasnt in the wedding so couldnt i wear what i want..??..Well took it as a dare and me and my girlfriend at the time went shopping for a dress for me..Yep bought one and wore it..I felt out of place so bad that i was very uncomfortable..It seemed like everyone came to the wedding to see if i was going to wear that dress..My girlfriend liked seeing me in it..Couldnt wait till i could take it off..Ok i got the dress and wearing it and my sister makes the comment on how i was walking..REALLY..?..I put the dress on and it still wasnt enough..I cant change the walk/swagger even in a dress..I wasnt any less a Butch in a dress,,just an uncomfortable one..That was about 25-26 years ago..They are still married..

A few years later my older sister was getting married..Here we go again..This time she asked me to be in the wedding..That was quite an ordeal because they were going to get married on my 21st birthday..WHAT.!!.You are going to make me wear a dress on my 21st BIRTHDAY and plan my day according to what you want me to do..Ummm NO.!.I turned down the offer to be in the wedding because of my birthaday and didnt want to wear a dress the whole entire day..On my Birthday.!!.That caused a bunch of trouble..She wouldnt change the wedding day and i wouldnt change my mind..My Butchness was fully entact that day..My other sisters boyfriend took me across the street and bought me my first legal drink while the pictures were being taken..Think we had a few..That was about 20-22 years ago..They are still married..

Yet another wedding..Another sister is getting married..She asked me to be in her wedding and i accepted..We had to wear a light pink dress with a big bow on our a#ses..Not a pretty sight or dress..None of us liked it..It was very low cut and if we bent over far enough you could see all the way to our bellybuttons..Oh yeah flower in our hair..I took that out imediately or as soon as i could..Very uncomfortable and i felt like an idiot..Again i was told to walk like a girl..How can i do that being a butch..??..Anyway it was time to take that dress off..I went out to my car and got my other clothes..Went in the bathroom to change and my grandma was in there..I said i am sorry grandma and that da#n hoop dress went right over my head and on the floor..There i was naked infront of grandma..I felt more comfortable like that than with that dress on..Put on my tightest pair of Levis and my "dress up t-shirt" with my hiking boots..Went out sat with my cousins and said now it is time to drink..My cousin smiled put a cup in front of me and filled that thing up..That marriage was over less than 3 years..{told ya,but what do i know}..

Now the hair..I prefer a little length..When i was little mom forced me to have short hair..It was her decision on how i was to wear my hair not mine..I didnt like the way it looked on me..Thought it made my ears stick out..So i like my hair to cover my ears..Told my hair girl the story and she cuts/trims accordinly..

Now with that being said..Through all those dresses and longer hair..I am still a butch on the inside and able to express it on the outside..No one can change that with a dress..It is what i feel and what i am..I am a Butch woman and very secure with that..

Kinda funny.. A few months ago i had to attend a funeral of a close family member..The kids were taking bets on what i was going to wear..Not a dress this time it was dress pants or the Levis..I picked the Levis and a shirt i ironed..They told me about it and who won..We laughed about it..The kids were not around during the dress time..They do know i will not be wearing a dress at any time even on Halloween..They know i am a Butch and respect that as it is and they dont care how i walk either..Love those kids..

sorry it got kinda long
thanks for reading

s..

Damn, I'm glad I've only got one sister! I didn't wear a dress to her wedding but I did grow out my flat top and wear a women's suit - for my mom, not my sister.

In fact, when I asked my sister if she was gonna want me in a dress for the big day, she laughed out loud and said, "Don't be silly, you'd look ridiculous."

I think she was secretly afraid that the novelty of her big bulldyke sister in a dress would become the one thing everybody remembered about her wedding...

[Billy]

Damn, I'm glad I've only got one sister! I didn't wear a dress to her wedding but I did grow out my flat top and wear a women's suit - for my mom, not my sister.

In fact, when I asked my sister if she was gonna want me in a dress for the big day, she laughed out loud and said, "Don't be silly, you'd look ridiculous."

I think she was secretly afraid that the novelty of her big bulldyke sister in a dress would become the one thing everybody remembered about her wedding...


I was trying to remember how long its been since I was in said dress .. It was at My fathers wedding :| I did it for him , it was not pretty at all .. I think it looked like a football player in drag ! lol

[Leigh]

I just love how every butch is different; no matter how you identify or dress or how you are in general you are a human being and that to me above all else counts the most :)

[rustedrims]

Hey Mr.Cynthia..
The kids are all in their early 20's and would never concider even asking if i was going to wear a dress for any reason..They know i am not going to..Why cant those other people let me be me..It is Levis and a ironed shirt or a Tux for the Grand Ball..Those are the choices..The kids get it..

Billy..
Yeah..Thinking back on those days i am sure i looked like i was in Drag..It will never happen again..If i am invited to share an important day in their lives what difference does it really make what i am wearing..Isnt it important that i show up and share the day with them..No to dresses and still am a Butch inside and out..

About a month ago i had a very important meeting i had to go to..Even still my mom pointed her finger in my face and gave me her opinion on what i should wear..Bascially dont dress like a Butch she was trying to say..Threw the dresses away many years ago so the Levis and a shirt..What i was wearing had no affect on the out come of that meeting..Hummm Really.??.

[aishah]

I just love how every butch is different; no matter how you identify or dress or how you are in general you are a human being and that to me above all else counts the most :)

this :)

i am also grateful for butch diversity. i love all the different ways you have of expressing yourself to the world. you are so handsome and sexy it just floors me. you are seen and loved and respected.

[Mr. Cynthia]

I was trying to remember how long its been since I was in said dress .. It was at My fathers wedding :| I did it for him , it was not pretty at all .. I think it looked like a football player in drag ! lol

I did drag for Halloween one year- back when I practically lived at the bar. I had some of the girls from work put makeup on me, wore a real wig and a normal outfit. I looked in the mirror and said, "Yeah, I'd buy me a drink."

Nobody recognized me until I clued them in, or moved or spoke. It was fun.

[rustedrims]

As i read in the Planet i see how we as Butches and Femmes have fallen into the ways of the people around us and do what they expect of us..At the time i think we go numb and "act out" what is expected of us in a straight world to fit in to their enviroment not to upset the apple cart..Ya know i think we are all tired of tip toeing around that apple cart not to knock it over..That cart needs to be kicked over to let everyone know that we are here and we arent going away anytime soon..Butch or Femme we are humans and do have feelings of acceptance and rejection..

[rustedrims]

this :)

i am also grateful for butch diversity. i love all the different ways you have of expressing yourself to the world. you are so handsome and sexy it just floors me. you are seen and loved and respected.

Sending a little Thank-You your way..
Us Butches are nothing without all you Femmes..

[Leigh]

As i read in the Planet i see how we as Butches and Femmes have fallen into the ways of the people around us and do what they expect of us..At the time i think we go numb and "act out" what is expected of us in a straight world to fit in to their enviroment not to upset the apple cart..Ya know i think we are all tired of tip toeing around that apple cart not to knock it over..That cart needs to be kicked over to let everyone know that we are here and we arent going away anytime soon..Butch or Femme we are humans and do have feelings of acceptance and rejection..


I know its really easy for us to act a certain way because that is what the straight world expects of us. If only they would accept us for who we all are and not make us act a certain way or be a certain person just to appease them. Absolutely butches and femmes have feelings; we all want to be accepted and loved without the fear of being rejected.

[Billy]

I have enjoyed reading this thread ...
I remember when I went to My first bash , It was confusing for Me ...I saw folks like Toughy and Mr C that where very masculine and yet folks would say she or her ..I caught Myself saying he or him , I did not understand all that at the time ..Its threads like this that really help folks understand how different we all are and it's ok :) I STILL have a hard time keeping up with ALL the ID's , but I do My best to not disrespect anyone ..

[Morgan]

These posts are great...I have enjoyed reading them.

I went out last night and yes, I dressed to the hilt. I found a black "Jones Wear" dress at the second hand store, tags were still on it, a pair of black 3" pumps, black strapless bra, skimpy undies, black thigh hose, bangles, necklace, large hoop earrings and yes those are fake glue on nails. I had Starryeyes help me with the makeup and my hair and I went into San Diego and met up with some friends at an event. I managed to walk and stand for 3 hours last night, before I finally had enough and changed back into my real clothes....I admire the femmes for putting so much work into being femme. It was a lot of work to get myself out the door and park the car, catch the shuttle and head over to the event without guys oogling and staring at me. Walking up the long flight of stairs and not tripping was a hoot.

Would I do it again...perhaps, for me being a butch is not on the outside, but on the inside. I am a woman first and it felt good to embrace the feminine side of myself, if only just for a night.

I am sharing the link here. http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/OZisme/Morgan%20picture/

[Cin]

Reading the last page or so of this thread made me think of the last time I wore a dress. It was at my father’s funeral. I hadn’t worn anything of the kind for many years before that. I did it to make a statement. I did it as a kind of tribute to my dad. Yet, my father would have been the last person to give a fat rat’s ass what I wore.

He was always very okay with the way I dressed and pretty much with me in general. It was because of him that I had any boy toys at all to play with growing up. He always defended me to my mother. My poor mother could never get her head around my behavior. She really couldn’t get it. She would glance my way with a puzzled expression as I rode the ends of the couch up to the saloon, swaggered in and put a crayon or a piece of dry spaghetti in my mouth as a stand in for a cigarette and drank water out of shot glasses while I played cards and got in fights. These fights consisted of punching myself and throwing myself around the room and wrestling with myself on the ground until I beat the shit out the bad guys.

Then my sister was born. She was very feminine and loved to wear my mother’s high heels and put stuff on her head and play wedding. She wore tiaras and loved being the princess. My mother was so pleased. Fast forward fifteen years and she was completely flummoxed when she brought her butch girlfriend home for a visit.

My dad seemed to be okay with whoever his kids were. When I was little he always tried to make peace in the home while not squashing who I was. When I wanted to wear my guns to church instead of freaking out about how girls shouldn’t be playing with guns like my mom did, he would explain how guns, even toy ones, didn’t belong in church. When I complained about how I had to dress to go to Mass, he would tell me how lots of real bad asses wore long coats. All the better to hide stuff in and besides he would say, it just looked cool. He taught me to fight and he was proud of how good I was at it. Keep your hands up he would say as he smacked me in the mouth to emphasize the importance. He would tell his friends what a good fighter I was. He also taught me to fish, hunt with a bow and arrow and shoot a gun. Not to mention how to throw a football, hit a baseball and pitch a wicked curve. Put some English on it he would say to me. He taught me to swim and dive and always told me I could do anything I wanted to do.

He was quite a dapper dresser. He never considered certain colors off limits. When I think of my dad I often see him in a pink shirt with a pink and purple striped tie, a very cool handkerchief in his jacket pocket and a fedora on his head. I loved to dress in his clothes as a kid.

So when I decided to wear a dress to his funeral it was a surprise to me. I don’t know why it felt right, but it did. It was something I did for him even though he never would have asked me to or even really cared if I did or not, except in that it would please my mother. So the reason I wore a dress was not to make my mother happy even though it did, it was because my mother’s happiness was important to my father and also because throughout my life he tried so hard to keep peace between us. It was for him, especially because he wouldn’t care and he wouldn’t ask.

I don't imagine I will ever do it again. Even reading this sounds like I think wearing a dress is some kind of immense sacrifice. LOL, I guess it is. It feels like it compromises who I am. It feels like I am participating in my own oppression. I'm speaking just for myself here. If you're butch and you like dresses, I mean like them on you, that's cool. I don't feel good about wearing stuff like that. It's wrapped up in all kinds of baggage for me.

[Corkey]

I admire those of you who can pull off the wearin' o' the dress.
I fail completely and look like a linebacker in drag with a limp.

[dykeumentary]

I've been following this thread, and finally I will jump in.
First, when I decide to wear a dress, I look hot. This stands to reason: when I decide to wear a dress, I go all out-- it fits fabulously, my shoes and accessories are stylish, and I WORK The Dress. I have a lot of confidence, and people respond to confidence, no? As a butch, I understand that it is all about how you wear the outfit, not the outfit.

Another point to add here: Several posts here seem to refer to "drag" as a negative thing, and that is not cool. Drag queens are people who are expressing their truth. Some of my dear friends are drag queens. Also, as a feminist, i feel that drag queens make an important contribution politically by pointing out "performative" femininity in our sexist society.

I challenge butches to find another way to describe their appearance than to assume we all are snorting with derision at references to drag.

[aishah]

my butch partner does drag...some of the comments about wearing dresses and about drag in this thread made me wonder (in a positive way) if others ever do drag and find it a fun way to express themselves.

[Corkey]

If you are referring to my post I can clearly refute that. I big I with all the personal that comes with an I post would truly look like I was in drag. I did not disparage drag or those who participate in doing drag. I also admire folks who do drag. So I hope that sets your reading of MY post at ease.

[Metro]

“We all came into this world naked. The rest is all drag.”

~ RuPaul

[Cin]

I never looked very good in a dress. I have had to wear women’s clothes for some jobs. I wore blouses and slacks, pant suits, some make-up now and again and jewelry. I have femmed it up a bit like that to go out occasionally for fun. But it never fails that someone will remark how I look like I’m in drag. It's better if I don't move cause once I commence walking the illusion is gone. I think it's kind of interesting and gender bending for someone who is female to do drag by dressing up as female, same if someone who is male does drag by dressing up as male. I mean it doesn't look like drag if I dress like a guy. Except for the breasts it looks like a guy, a pretty one for sure, but a guy nonetheless. So it's kind of a 21st century type of drag. Maybe. I sure don't mean any disrespect. And good on ya if you are a butch who looks good dressed in traditionally feminine clothing. I don't. I don't mind playing at dressing up in feminine attire. I just know I can't seriously pull it off.

[Billy]

I've been following this thread, and finally I will jump in.
First, when I decide to wear a dress, I look hot. This stands to reason: when I decide to wear a dress, I go all out-- it fits fabulously, my shoes and accessories are stylish, and I WORK The Dress. I have a lot of confidence, and people respond to confidence, no? As a butch, I understand that it is all about how you wear the outfit, not the outfit.

Another point to add here: Several posts here seem to refer to "drag" as a negative thing, and that is not cool. Drag queens are people who are expressing their truth. Some of my dear friends are drag queens. Also, as a feminist, i feel that drag queens make an important contribution politically by pointing out "performative" femininity in our sexist society.

I challenge butches to find another way to describe their appearance than to assume we all are snorting with derision at references to drag.

I respect Your opinion , really I do .....But it never fails , and I am not saying You personally ..But someone will come it and pick apart one word , and all it takes is one ...I don't think any of us used the word "drag" in a negative manner ..I said what I said the way I wanted to say it the best way I could .

[Mr. Cynthia]

I've been following this thread, and finally I will jump in.
First, when I decide to wear a dress, I look hot. This stands to reason: when I decide to wear a dress, I go all out-- it fits fabulously, my shoes and accessories are stylish, and I WORK The Dress. I have a lot of confidence, and people respond to confidence, no? As a butch, I understand that it is all about how you wear the outfit, not the outfit.

Another point to add here: Several posts here seem to refer to "drag" as a negative thing, and that is not cool. Drag queens are people who are expressing their truth. Some of my dear friends are drag queens. Also, as a feminist, i feel that drag queens make an important contribution politically by pointing out "performative" femininity in our sexist society.

I challenge butches to find another way to describe their appearance than to assume we all are snorting with derision at references to drag.
I dress in what society-at-large considers "drag" every single day. I put myself out into the world as a woman-id'd butch who passes as a man just as often as not...and that is MY truth. Any comments here that might appear derisive toward drag seem to be directed inward at the posters who experienced awkwardness and discomfort in clothing that does NOT express their truths.

The only difference between me and a drag queen is that I don't do shows. :dance2:

[Ebon]

I respect Your opinion , really I do .....But it never fails , and I am not saying You personally ..But someone will come it and pick apart one word , and all it takes is one ...I don't think any of us used the word "drag" in a negative manner ..I said what I said the way I wanted to say it the best way I could .

It was bound to happen. It always does.

[Toughy]

drag is the clothes you have on........

drag queens are entirely different except when they aren't........all I know is the draq queens that helped me along my butch path told me not to ever wear a dress because I looked like a horrible bad drag queen......

the last time I had on a dress....well it was a military uniform skirt, shirt, jacket...was at a WAC (women's army corps) gathering in SF in the mid-80s. I was in the color guard. The last time I wore a civilian dress/skirt was in 1970 when I graduated from high school. We could not wear pants to school, girls had to wear dress or skirt and the length was no shorter than 3inches from the middle of the knee (you had to kneel and it was measured from the floor).......

I never ever felt comfortable in a dress or skirt....except for military uniforms.....that kind of drag just is not me. I am the oldest generation in my family so I don't have to please parents grandparents aunties uncles and neither of my sisters would ever think I should wear a dress/skirt.

[Corkey]

Oh and I limp fer real in real time.

[Toughy]

Oh and I limp fer real in real time.


me too bud!!!

[clay]

me too bud!!!

hey buds...at least I am in great company..it is an honor to be amongst your presence, for I limp, for real, as well....am NOT able to walk more than few feet, so it will knock me out of the butch bonding gathering at the Reunion..but I will hang out with the ducks in the lobby..at least I waddle like them..lol

[girl_dee]

at the risk of invading the butch space, i would like to say that for this femme, i don't want a shiny new mint condition butch, i like the battlescars, limps, silver top, and everything in between, every character trait,

i don't want what you used to be, i want who i see in front of me right now.

[Miss Scarlett]

at the risk of invading the butch space, i would like to say that for this femme, i don't want a shiny new mint condition butch, i like the battlescars, limps, silver top, and everything in between, every character trait,

i don't want what you used to be, i want who i see in front of me right now.

Amen Sistah! i feel exactly the same way!

Clay, my beloved, Sexy Silver Butch...i love you just the way you are, for you are absolutely perfect in the eyes of my heart and those are the ones that matter...although the others do make it easier to avoid things like putting one's elbow in ice cream... :winky:

[clay]

Thank YOU & dee!!! I so appreciate your kind words...
as for "elbow in ice cream...umm that would be "frozen custard"...lol...too funny that episode was Honey, thank you for loving me..just as I am...huge grinAmen Sistah! i feel exactly the same way!

Clay, my beloved, Sexy Silver Butch...i love you just the way you are, for you are absolutely perfect in the eyes of my heart and those are the ones that matter...although the others do make it easier to avoid things like putting one's elbow in ice cream... :winky:

[clay]

thanks, sweet lady!! Your words mean so much....I miss being able to walk any place, any time...but now I can't...
Like I said, I "waddle" so I will play with those Peabody ducks..maybe sneak a peek around the hotel lobby, find myself something to get into...and like YOU, I am so darn mischievious, I won't be "idle" too long..grinsat the risk of invading the butch space, i would like to say that for this femme, i don't want a shiny new mint condition butch, i like the battlescars, limps, silver top, and everything in between, every character trait,

i don't want what you used to be, i want who i see in front of me right now.

[girl_dee]

mischievous?? MOI? oh dear

there are things we all miss in our lives, i miss my boobs not disappearing into my armpits when i lay down but hey life goes on.....

[Miss Scarlett]

Thank YOU & dee!!! I so appreciate your kind words...
as for "elbow in ice cream...umm that would be "frozen custard"...lol...too funny that episode was Honey, thank you for loving me..just as I am...huge grin

LOL...it was frozen custard and you DID tell me to keep my eyes closed...

How could i possibly NOT love you just as you are?

[clay]

mischievous?? MOI? oh dear

there are things we all miss in our lives, i miss my boobs not disappearing into my armpits when i lay down but hey life goes on.....

hey I can bring a lasso and "wrangle" ducks...yea and a fishing pole and fish in the pool...can I borrow a pole and hook, dee one? lmao
I can make me some sushi with the fresh fish and have duck ala orange

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

thanks, sweet lady!! Your words mean so much....I miss being able to walk any place, any time...but now I can't...
Like I said, I "waddle" so I will play with those Peabody ducks..maybe sneak a peek around the hotel lobby, find myself something to get into...and like YOU, I am so darn mischievious, I won't be "idle" too long..grins

Clay, I am soooo looking forward to meeting you at the Reunion!!

[clay]

and I, you...lady!!!!Clay, I am soooo looking forward to meeting you at the Reunion!!

[LaneyDoll]

at the risk of invading the butch space, i would like to say that for this femme, i don't want a shiny new mint condition butch, i like the battlescars, limps, silver top, and everything in between, every character trait,

i don't want what you used to be, i want who i see in front of me right now.

I love, love, love this!!! I especially love the part where you state "I like the limp." I do too. It sure makes me feel less self aware when the end of the night finds me, past the point that I can feel my feet, and I take the shoes off, stand barefooted and the pain is very present. Yes I realize that it is the price of wearing the heels that I love but I sure as Hell can't point any fingers about anyone walking a certain way.

And the battle scars are super attractive.

;)

:sparklyheart:

[clay]

I love, love, love this!!! I especially love the part where you state "I like the limp." I do too. It sure makes me feel less self aware when the end of the night finds me, past the point that I can feel my feet, and I take the shoes off, stand barefooted and the pain is very present. Yes I realize that it is the price of wearing the heels that I love but I sure as Hell can't point any fingers about anyone walking a certain way.

And the battle scars are super attractive.

;)

:sparklyheart:

Thank you, my sweet Laney friend! I know I have many "battle scars"...a 12 inch one along my right side rib cage, a 30 inch one from breastbone to pubic line, one on an ankle. a trach scar, a right knee scar, and Miss Scarlett thinks they are super sexy!!!
I wear mine with pride...esp. the one down the middle of my chest and abdomen....reminds me daily of a "major bullet" I dodged....smiles... I kicked cancer's ass!!!

[firegal]

at the risk of invading the butch space, i would like to say that for this femme, i don't want a shiny new mint condition butch, i like the battlescars, limps, silver top, and everything in between, every character trait,

i don't want what you used to be, i want who i see in front of me right now.

Thanks Cajun that made me smile.... Yes it sounds like a franklin mint limited edition ad.

Oh do i have a hitch in my get-along!

[Leigh]

I know that we all have our own "battle" scars; its what shows that we have been through alot but we are still here alive and kicking. I prefer a butch with said battle scars, or something like that, because it shows alot about what they've gone through and that they are strong after its all said and done. There is something very sexy about a butch who, as Dee said, is not in mint condition but has all the bumps and battle scars that life has to offer :)

[CherylNYC]

my butch partner does drag...some of the comments about wearing dresses and about drag in this thread made me wonder (in a positive way) if others ever do drag and find it a fun way to express themselves.

I'm just catching up. Aisha asked this question a page or so back.

reprinted in part from a post I wrote in the Butches and Body Image thread:

"...I'm dating a very butch woman who sometimes performs in female drag. Her drag personna feels a lot like a toughened up Diana Ross, but about a dozen sizes larger. Her personna wears wigs, heavy make-up, and sparkly dresses. The reason why everyone enjoys and understands the performance as drag is that her virile, masculine energy easily overwhelms any height of heel. Stereotypically feminine trappings only serve to accentuate her masculinity..."

[Wolfsong]

I dress in what society-at-large considers "drag" every single day. I put myself out into the world as a woman-id'd butch who passes as a man just as often as not...and that is MY truth. Any comments here that might appear derisive toward drag seem to be directed inward at the posters who experienced awkwardness and discomfort in clothing that does NOT express their truths.



Throughout the course of my day I would say that I get addressed as a equal times as Sir or Ma'am. There are times that, for no apparent reason, when people address me as Sir I just want to scream at them "Are you fucking blind? Do you NOT see these tits? If these tits got any bigger they'd be required to have break lights and a license plate you dumbass!" but I just smile and move along. I've come to believe that this reaction is more about being hurt at being invisible to people than it does to my gender identity.


I never ever felt comfortable in a dress or skirt....except for military uniforms.....that kind of drag just is not me. I am the oldest generation in my family so I don't have to please parents grandparents aunties uncles and neither of my sisters would ever think I should wear a dress/skirt.

I went through a period where dresses and I didn't get along. I put on a kilt for a function once and something changed. (I know, weird!!) Now I am simply neutral on the issue. I am in general physically comfortable in the dresses/skirts that I have. They are modest in appearence and color. Not frilly or with coloful patterns or anything like that. The shoes not so much. Actually, the shoes make me feel way more gender-discomfort than the dress does. I hate those damn shoes!!

I do not wear dresses now except for special occasions where, for me, it is a sign of respect (Such as my cousin's funeral earlier this year) for my family. I should clarify that this is my choice to do that for them, they would be fine if I had worn respectful (in this case black) clothing.

*Laughing....in those situations I am still simply a butch in a dress.

[Liem]

its not something I wear, its nothing i do
Be gracious
respect
pride
self care
belief
earn respect

[Toughy]

<snip>
There are times that, for no apparent reason, when people address me as Sir I just want to scream at them "Are you fucking blind? Do you NOT see these tits? If these tits got any bigger they'd be required to have break lights and a license plate you dumbass!" but I just smile and move along. I've come to believe that this reaction is more about being hurt at being invisible to people than it does to my gender identity.

<snip>

ok you made me spit donuts (yeah yeah I know real healthy) and coffee all over my puter...........laughin....

oh yeah welcome to the Planet.........

[Mr. Cynthia]

Throughout the course of my day I would say that I get addressed as a equal times as Sir or Ma'am. There are times that, for no apparent reason, when people address me as Sir I just want to scream at them "Are you fucking blind? Do you NOT see these tits? If these tits got any bigger they'd be required to have break lights and a license plate you dumbass!" but I just smile and move along. I've come to believe that this reaction is more about being hurt at being invisible to people than it does to my gender identity.





I used to get anxious every time I had to interact with people who don't know my name- would they call me sir, ma'am, he, she? Should I correct them? Should I make a joke or should I be all offended and snap at them?

Now, I just don't care.

Cashiers, wait staff, the guys at Jiffy Lube...they don't know that blue is my favorite color. They don't know that I collect Zippo lighters and books and sharp-pointy things. They don't know that I have a dog named Max and cats named Bella and Vinnie. Why should they know all about my gender identity/sexual orientation?

I just go with whatever they call me...which is especially funny when they call me "sir" 15 times and then look at the name on my Visa card- talk about priceless!

[Hollylane]

Would I do it again...perhaps, for me being a butch is not on the outside, but on the inside. I am a woman first and it felt good to embrace the feminine side of myself, if only just for a night.

I am sharing the link here. http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/OZisme/Morgan%20picture/

I've chewed on this for a few days. I guess I just want to say that I don't think that feeling in touch with my femininity means that I need to put on a dress, make-up, pantyhose or high heels, or expect to be oogled by someone of another gender.

I don't feel like I am any less feminine when I am wearing hiking boots, hiking pants, and a t-shirt, struggling uphill, sweating and trudging through mud and muck. I feel strong, and I feel feminine, because that is who I am.

I don't mean to invade butch space, or discount anyone's experiences. I just don't feel that "What makes a Butch "Butch"" has anything to do with clothing. I think that what makes a butch "Butch" is about how they feel about themselves.

[Parker]

I havent yet evolved to the point where being called sir or having mail addressed to Mr. Wolf doesnt bother me. I would like to say that I have but it would be bullshit - it hurts and pisses me off at the same time - which is interesting, seeings how it happens all the time - you'd think I'd be used to it by now.

Like Wolfsong, I am surprised they dont see these huge tits - even in an over-sized t-shirt, they are still quite prominent and enter a room a few minutes before I do. I would love to get a breast reduction if for no other reason than to be able to lay on my stomach without having to adjust them and move them out of the way.

But I digress with my TMI ...

I have to agree with what Wolfsong said about being invisible - no, I dont expect strangers to know anything about my sexuality or gender identity, but being invisible as a woman simply because I am masculine gets tiresome - hell, it even happens on sites like this where "he/hy" is still the default for a lot of folks when addressing butches.

I dont like being invisible, but I refuse to change who I am or how I dress in order for others to "see" me; so I just have to suck it up and find a way to get past the hurt and anger and come to understand that no harm is meant - some people will just never see me.

I hope one day to evolve into that state of Zen where things like that dont even come up on my radar of things that bug the crap out of me.

[BullDog]

I don't pay much attention to whether someone calls me Sir, Ma'am, he, she etc when it's coming from store clerks or some other customer service person. I figure they are either required to say it or they are saying it out or habit. Not everyone who says "have a nice day" truly means it, lol.

When it comes to butch femme communities it is extremely invalidating and frustrating when male defaults are used. Most butches are not male or male id'd so why this continues to be perpetuated is truly beyond me. I thought we were trying to get past the binary. It's certainly not as bad on this site as others but it still occurs.

I am happy to refer to anyone by he or hy if that is what that individual prefers. However most butches are not he/hy and when it is used as a default I just feel the person doing it must be truly out of touch with the reality of how most butches live or they do it to not offend males (which is another sign of male being valued over female). The argument that we have to use he/hy for butches and she for femmes to tell the difference between the two is truly beyond ridiculous to me.

[rande]

Some Butches feel ok "cross dressing," some don't. What makes a Butch butch is who they are, how they are within their own head and how they express that to the outside world.
Some use clothing as part of that presentation. In some cases it is ingrained deep enough to be beyond presentation....more part of the persona.

I feel much more comfortable in male attire. With the exception of the binder, I wear everything from the Men's department. And since the binder is kinda home-made, I guess that's "male attire" too.

But I am Butch because I feel the masculine energy surging inside me...undeniable....vivid. And because of how this energy is carried on into the outside world.

If I ever had to wear a dress, it would be long, loose and more like a robe...I'm not comfortable accentuating my "female" form. But that's just me.

[Ginger]

Wolfsong wrote: "Throughout the course of my day I would say that I get addressed as a equal times as Sir or Ma'am. There are times that, for no apparent reason, when people address me as Sir I just want to scream at them "Are you fucking blind? Do you NOT see these tits? If these tits got any bigger they'd be required to have break lights and a license plate you dumbass!" but I just smile and move along. I've come to believe that this reaction is more about being hurt at being invisible to people than it does to my gender identity."



Wolfsong, your response to being mistaken for a man, despite your impressive boobage, made me remember fondly a butch lover who was almost always called "Sir," and who was confronted by security not once but twice in the time I knew her—after women reported a man in the ladies' bathroom.

She too marveled that anyone could mistake her for male, as her breasts were (and are, I suppose, though I haven't seen her for a while), absolutely huge.

What's interesting is that I read her as butch from the first moment I heard her beautiful deep voice on a friend's answering machine (she was trying to set us up, and knew I would swoon for it), and my reading never wavered, even though she is much more endowed upstairs, than I am.

Her breasts, in other words, did not feminize her. She didn't "present" them the way I present my own little girls, when we are dressing up to go out. She kept them under wraps, snugly out of the way. And they behaved, of course.

I think we "read" people based on certain indicators, and that we do this instantly and subconsciously. The signs that masculine energy is approaching were so clear, in my lover—physical aspects like her walk, her way of holding herself, her gaze, as well as cultural indicators, like her clothing—that the signs she is a woman became secondary.

I raise my glass (I mean, paper cup with coffee), to the large-breasted butch women out there in the world, who emit a welcome and much-appreciated vibe.

[Wolfsong]

ok you made me spit donuts (yeah yeah I know real healthy) and coffee all over my puter...........laughin....

oh yeah welcome to the Planet.........

You dope....don't eat donuts. Even my fat ass is smarter than that. Hey listen I've had this mental image for years and it cracks me up every time. Whenever I take my bra off I see this in my head.....

Looks great! Little full, lotta sap - YouTube



I just go with whatever they call me...which is especially funny when they call me "sir" 15 times and then look at the name on my Visa card- talk about priceless!

My standard reply for "Excuse me sir, that is the ladies room" is "Great thanks. You know you would think after all these years by now I would have figured out how to pee standing up"



I havent yet evolved to the point where being called sir or having mail addressed to Mr. Wolf doesnt bother me. I would like to say that I have but it would be bullshit - it hurts and pisses me off at the same time - which is interesting, seeings how it happens all the time - you'd think I'd be used to it by now.

Like Wolfsong, I am surprised they dont see these huge tits - even in an over-sized t-shirt, they are still quite prominent and enter a room a few minutes before I do. I would love to get a breast reduction if for no other reason than to be able to lay on my stomach without having to adjust them and move them out of the way.

But I digress with my TMI ...

I have to agree with what Wolfsong said about being invisible - no, I dont expect strangers to know anything about my sexuality or gender identity, but being invisible as a woman simply because I am masculine gets tiresome - hell, it even happens on sites like this where "he/hy" is still the default for a lot of folks when addressing butches.

I dont like being invisible, but I refuse to change who I am or how I dress in order for others to "see" me; so I just have to suck it up and find a way to get past the hurt and anger and come to understand that no harm is meant - some people will just never see me.

I hope one day to evolve into that state of Zen where things like that dont even come up on my radar of things that bug the crap out of me.



I think it is a lot more for me than feeling invisible as a woman, although there is that. Just because I am masculine does not automatically mean that I want to get rid of every aspect of my female self. I've worked hard to love me as my whole self. That includes her. It is because of her that I can. The woman in me is where my strength and power comes from and I would not betray her for anything in the world. I did that once and I fucked myself up. I think of myself as berdache, two spirits that are part of a whole me.

Besides, I can ignore my womaness all I want........ then when that first cramp hits every month all deniability is out the window and there I am in bed with a quart of ice cream, a box of tissue, and a remote watching Grease for the 900millionth time.

Anyways more than that, it's the feeling of being invisible as a person. As if my presence to that person means so little that they haven't looked me in the eye while speaking to me and actually saw me. *Shrugs.....my baggage I guess..... but I hate it when it happens to me so I make it a point not to do it to other people.

[Wolfsong]

What's interesting is that I read her as butch from the first moment I heard her beautiful deep voice on a friend's answering machine (she was trying to set us up, and knew I would swoon for it), and my reading never wavered, even though she is much more endowed upstairs, than I am.

Her breasts, in other words, did not feminize her. She didn't "present" them the way I present my own little girls, when we are dressing up to go out. She kept them under wraps, snugly out of the way. And they behaved, of course.

I think we "read" people based on certain indicators, and that we do this instantly and subconsciously. The signs that masculine energy is approaching were so clear, in my lover—physical aspects like her walk, her way of holding herself, her gaze, as well as cultural indicators, like her clothing—that the signs she is a woman became secondary.

I raise my glass (I mean, paper cup with coffee), to the large-breasted butch women out there in the world, who emit a welcome and much-appreciated vibe.

I :stillheart: you right now. Thank you for that

[Jett]

I have long hair and painted black nails... two coats and nice top coat, I also wear make-up with my t- and jeans or hoodies or more "female" clothing... nope I don't do dresses or even flowers, frilly or cutesy but just because it's not my style but I like my hips and tits... and my deep voice. I am a very strong, protective, loving, kind and bad azz female likes to get dirty (sometimes not) and who wants a good life for me and mine.

This is who I am... what does it mean beyond that about my sex or gender? Nothing. It doesn't speak for who I am. My heart and soul does that. I do admit, these days at first glance I could probably be mistaken for a femme or straight more than pegged queer or butch, somedays not, but the proof is in the pudding... dark intense chocolate w/ sprinkles on top in my case... xD

I will add that I don't like to "identify" w/ a single word... so I don't... but here (b/f spaces) is where I find myself again and again because the dynamic draws me... it is natural to me.

No rules,
Jett

[SleepyButch]

Wolfsong wrote: "Throughout the course of my day I would say that I get addressed as a equal times as Sir or Ma'am. There are times that, for no apparent reason, when people address me as Sir I just want to scream at them "Are you fucking blind? Do you NOT see these tits? If these tits got any bigger they'd be required to have break lights and a license plate you dumbass!" but I just smile and move along. I've come to believe that this reaction is more about being hurt at being invisible to people than it does to my gender identity."



Wolfsong, your response to being mistaken for a man, despite your impressive boobage, made me remember fondly a butch lover who was almost always called "Sir," and who was confronted by security not once but twice in the time I knew her—after women reported a man in the ladies' bathroom.

She too marveled that anyone could mistake her for male, as her breasts were (and are, I suppose, though I haven't seen her for a while), absolutely huge.

What's interesting is that I read her as butch from the first moment I heard her beautiful deep voice on a friend's answering machine (she was trying to set us up, and knew I would swoon for it), and my reading never wavered, even though she is much more endowed upstairs, than I am.

Her breasts, in other words, did not feminize her. She didn't "present" them the way I present my own little girls, when we are dressing up to go out. She kept them under wraps, snugly out of the way. And they behaved, of course.

I think we "read" people based on certain indicators, and that we do this instantly and subconsciously. The signs that masculine energy is approaching were so clear, in my lover—physical aspects like her walk, her way of holding herself, her gaze, as well as cultural indicators, like her clothing—that the signs she is a woman became secondary.

I raise my glass (I mean, paper cup with coffee), to the large-breasted butch women out there in the world, who emit a welcome and much-appreciated vibe.


In my own experience, I used to have very large breasts but I always wore baggy shirts. I still thought they were noticeable. I think a lot of people don't look there once they see the short spikey hair and masculine looks. They just assume I'm male.

One time, I was walking out of the women's bathroom and a woman was coming in. She gave me a look, hesitated, walked back to see the woman's sign for the bathroom. I said.. you are in the right place and I walked out. lol

If I'm in a mood, I will correct them and many times, I get the response: Oh, I didn't look up. Another time, I was checking into a rather fancy hotel and the woman at the desk kept saying sir... I kept saying ma'am.. this happened several times and she never looked at me. She even had my driver's license with my name which is not a male name.

Now that I have longer hair (for me), I don't get mistaken for male as much. My breasts are smaller so that leads me to believe people just don't look at the whole person.

[lusciouskiwi]

Cleo Gardner (amazing Writer) wrote this...wished I had written it...it expresses my feelings sooo well....thank you Cleo!

♥♥♥ Butch Appreciation & Adoration ♥♥♥ to all the handsome, swarthy, perverted, warrior, two-spirted, gender bender, dapper, faggy, delicious, top, bottom, switch, witch, heart wounded, un/complicated, careful, pragmatic, chivalrous, rope tying, knitting, tool wielding, packing and anywhere on the masculinity/femininity spectrum Butches. those who are creating the geography of their own identity maps in the face of their constructed “otherness” ! To those who are gentle, firm, tender, those who make us proud to be on their arms, in their lives, their fantasies and a part of their dreams, the Butches who get harassed in the “ladies” rooms and those whose bodies refuse to conform. Those who stand quietly at the back of the room, bar, party but will be the first to step up when you need them.. those who smile even though they have struggled to get through the day dealing with homophobic looks and commentary as they live their everyday lives.. KNOW THIS.. as a Femme I love who you are and I’m aware that when I tell you you are damn fine and sexy that of course you squirm and blush because you enjoy it but it hurts my heart to know your discomfort also comes from being told you are ugly, too often.. yet you continue to challenge the heterosexist construct of being born female that is regurgitated relentlessly and for that humble but giant strength, I adore you.. understand that I have your back as I stand by your side.. That for me there is nothing more perfect and complete than a Butch who embraces their Butchness.. I will always notice your swagger and that your centre of gravity is low, growling vibrations that I can hear 100 metres away. The sound of your boots and the smell of your cologne lingers in my senses long after you have left the room.. Your energy, contradictions and essence are what fits my being and makes me feel I have found “home”. x

[~ocean]

~ I cant speak for a butch this is their knowing ~from an admiring femmes point of view ~ a butch from birth;s confidence ~ hys knowing of hymself ~ is the most sexiesttttttttt ~ dayummmmm ~

[Amante]

I'm glad that I came across this thread.

After 15 years of almost exclusively dating very masculine butches - most of whom were to a large degree male-identified - and a few FTMs, I am now with a fully female-identified butch who is what I refer to as my "peacock butch" because of how male peacocks are far more showy and colorful than the females.

I knew even before we met in person that she sometimes wears makeup and sometimes paints her nails, that she sometimes carries a purse and that she buys most of her clothes from the women's section, and while she would never wear a dress or skirt, there are many things that she has worn and still wears that are far from masculine. I honestly wasn't sure at first how I'd react to this: Would I be able to relate to her as a butch if she had on lipstick?!? And I knew before we met that even her sexual expression was different than I was used to, in ways that I won't go into detail, but it left me wondering how I'd be with that.

So this took some seriously getting used to for me, but in the end I was glad to be forced to reexamine my definition of what makes someone butch. Because in all the ways that in the end really matte to ME, she is the butchest butch I've ever been with: In the butch/femme relationship and sexual energy that we have, in how we make love, in how she cares for me and is protective of me without it ever taking away from my own strength, in how in this butch/femme dance she naturally leads while I naturally follow while always being completely equal partners in that dance.

So yes, it was strange and new to me that when we went to the opera last week, along with her slacks and tailored silky blouse she wore a dramatic velvet cape, carried a clutch purse, and wore makeup. But it didn't diminish who she was as a butch one tiny bit, and I was relieved to find myself finally relaxing about my own responses. She loves flashing her colorful feathers and showing off her glorious self, and I love her all the more for her courage to be exactly who she is instead of feeling that she has to conform to a certain standard of dress in order to know that she's butch to the core. SHE knows who she is, and her confidence in that and her comfort in expressing herself in any way she wants (as opposed to if she dressed like that i order to hide) is all it took for me to be completely comfortable with her as my butch.

[DapperButch]

WOW! Great post! Good to hear of such a confident butch who knows who she is and doesn't give a crap as to others` definitions! She is lucky to have a partner like you who doesn't box her in!

[suebee]

There are so many things that make my wife butch: the way she walks, the way she dresses, her code of conduct when with a straight woman or a femme. But the bottom line is that she identifies as butch. This isn't *what" she is, but *who* she is. Of all the external attributes or behaviors I could name, how she sees herself is the most important factor in her butchness. I know of many women who might be as masculine who don't see themselves as butches. It's first and foremost a state of mind. :)

[psykftm]

desd said...

When it comes to my partner, it's a multitude of looks, of actions, that make her butch. Does she dress masculine? Yes. From the tips of her cowboy boots to her baggy jeans, to the Skoal can in her back pocket. Button-down men's shirt with a tie, cowboy hat sitting just so. It's the way she drawls "Hey gorgeous", the way her lips turn up when she smiles at me, the smouldering look in her eyes when we make love. It's the way she wraps her arms around me when we go to bed at night, the caress of her fingertips on my face when she brushes my hair back, the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd. It's the loving way she brings me dinner to work, the "I love you" text messages throughout the day, the spontaneous love notes. I realize some of this do not 'mean' butch - they mean love, a partner - but it's what makes my partner 'my butch'.. so it counts, right?

*smiles*[/QUOTE]

Dang what a writer! lol but you brought something to mind mind which is great for me with this 'what makes a butch' topic. It would kill me for someone to call me feminine, as to why? The best I can come up with is it is not me.
I know labels suck, but since I'm working on trying to figure out who I am, I love them as descriptions. So my question comes from this scenario as written above
"the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd."
Now if my butch girlfriend did that to me, that would be hot!

I'm having a hard time getting at what I'm trying to get at lol

Being in a butch-butch relationship has turned up some threats to masculinity, like in pictures, she doesn't like it when I have my arm over her shoulder, because it makes her feel less butch. Well then I feel less butch.
I'm sure this is why someone would question a butch-butch relationship, but its so worth it lol!

I don't want to say I have a submissive side. I might, but it can't be considered feminine. I wanna know how other butches feel about these tight areas (if I have described it enough)...hopefully this is all still on topic

take care

[lilapache]

subscribing... will definitely be back tonite...

[Toughy]

desd said...

When it comes to my partner, it's a multitude of looks, of actions, that make her butch. Does she dress masculine? Yes. From the tips of her cowboy boots to her baggy jeans, to the Skoal can in her back pocket. Button-down men's shirt with a tie, cowboy hat sitting just so. It's the way she drawls "Hey gorgeous", the way her lips turn up when she smiles at me, the smouldering look in her eyes when we make love. It's the way she wraps her arms around me when we go to bed at night, the caress of her fingertips on my face when she brushes my hair back, the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd. It's the loving way she brings me dinner to work, the "I love you" text messages throughout the day, the spontaneous love notes. I realize some of this do not 'mean' butch - they mean love, a partner - but it's what makes my partner 'my butch'.. so it counts, right?

*smiles*

Dang what a writer! lol but you brought something to mind mind which is great for me with this 'what makes a butch' topic. It would kill me for someone to call me feminine, as to why? The best I can come up with is it is not me.
I know labels suck, but since I'm working on trying to figure out who I am, I love them as descriptions. So my question comes from this scenario as written above
"the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd."
Now if my butch girlfriend did that to me, that would be hot!

I'm having a hard time getting at what I'm trying to get at lol

Being in a butch-butch relationship has turned up some threats to masculinity, like in pictures, she doesn't like it when I have my arm over her shoulder, because it makes her feel less butch. Well then I feel less butch.
I'm sure this is why someone would question a butch-butch relationship, but its so worth it lol!

I don't want to say I have a submissive side. I might, but it can't be considered feminine. I wanna know how other butches feel about these tight areas (if I have described it enough)...hopefully this is all still on topic

take care

I will make it short and sweet. Anything and everything a butch does is butch. Period. Full Stop.

Do not ever let anyone tell you that you are less than as a butch or less than as a person, or that your relationship is less than.

[CherylNYC]

I don't want to say I have a submissive side. I might, but it can't be considered feminine. I wanna know how other butches feel about these tight areas (if I have described it enough)...hopefully this is all still on topic

take care

Please, PLEASE do NOT equate feminine with submissive!

If you have submissive moments or are submissive, then you're a submissive butch. Period.

[Hollylane]

Wolfsong wrote: "Throughout the course of my day I would say that I get addressed as a equal times as Sir or Ma'am. There are times that, for no apparent reason, when people address me as Sir I just want to scream at them "Are you fucking blind? Do you NOT see these tits? If these tits got any bigger they'd be required to have break lights and a license plate you dumbass!" but I just smile and move along. I've come to believe that this reaction is more about being hurt at being invisible to people than it does to my gender identity."



Wolfsong, your response to being mistaken for a man, despite your impressive boobage, made me remember fondly a butch lover who was almost always called "Sir," and who was confronted by security not once but twice in the time I knew her—after women reported a man in the ladies' bathroom.

She too marveled that anyone could mistake her for male, as her breasts were (and are, I suppose, though I haven't seen her for a while), absolutely huge.

What's interesting is that I read her as butch from the first moment I heard her beautiful deep voice on a friend's answering machine (she was trying to set us up, and knew I would swoon for it), and my reading never wavered, even though she is much more endowed upstairs, than I am.

Her breasts, in other words, did not feminize her. She didn't "present" them the way I present my own little girls, when we are dressing up to go out. She kept them under wraps, snugly out of the way. And they behaved, of course.

I think we "read" people based on certain indicators, and that we do this instantly and subconsciously. The signs that masculine energy is approaching were so clear, in my lover—physical aspects like her walk, her way of holding herself, her gaze, as well as cultural indicators, like her clothing—that the signs she is a woman became secondary.

I raise my glass (I mean, paper cup with coffee), to the large-breasted butch women out there in the world, who emit a welcome and much-appreciated vibe.

Bravo!....

[macele]

desd said...

When it comes to my partner, it's a multitude of looks, of actions, that make her butch. Does she dress masculine? Yes. From the tips of her cowboy boots to her baggy jeans, to the Skoal can in her back pocket. Button-down men's shirt with a tie, cowboy hat sitting just so. It's the way she drawls "Hey gorgeous", the way her lips turn up when she smiles at me, the smouldering look in her eyes when we make love. It's the way she wraps her arms around me when we go to bed at night, the caress of her fingertips on my face when she brushes my hair back, the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd. It's the loving way she brings me dinner to work, the "I love you" text messages throughout the day, the spontaneous love notes. I realize some of this do not 'mean' butch - they mean love, a partner - but it's what makes my partner 'my butch'.. so it counts, right?

*smiles*

Dang what a writer! lol but you brought something to mind mind which is great for me with this 'what makes a butch' topic. It would kill me for someone to call me feminine, as to why? The best I can come up with is it is not me.
I know labels suck, but since I'm working on trying to figure out who I am, I love them as descriptions. So my question comes from this scenario as written above
"the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd."
Now if my butch girlfriend did that to me, that would be hot!

I'm having a hard time getting at what I'm trying to get at lol

Being in a butch-butch relationship has turned up some threats to masculinity, like in pictures, she doesn't like it when I have my arm over her shoulder, because it makes her feel less butch. Well then I feel less butch.
I'm sure this is why someone would question a butch-butch relationship, but its so worth it lol!

I don't want to say I have a submissive side. I might, but it can't be considered feminine. I wanna know how other butches feel about these tight areas (if I have described it enough)...hopefully this is all still on topic

take care[/QUOTE]



are you saying that your girlfriend is the dominate one in the relationship? you can say that you are submissive, or have submissive tendencies, it's ok lol. own them!

[lilapache]

ok... i haven't been able to read but i have thought about it alot today... and this is just my opinion...

a Butch is a Butch when that is how they feel.... not ID... Male or Female ID butches feel the way they do.. it is apart of them... its the core values of what they believe... and its an aura... NO femme can miss... the confidence.. the way they hold themselves and the way that they treat their partner...

this is just my thoughts..,.

[Diablo]

pN-py8zojfk&list=FLVkEaxacCNQrL5Oz7U4-Xbg&index=93

[starryeyes]

A Butch is whoever they want to be. Individuality is amazing and conformity sucks!

[psykftm]

Please, PLEASE do NOT equate feminine with submissive!

If you have submissive moments or are submissive, then you're a submissive butch. Period.

Thanks for the dividing line, and calling me out; I really don't know why I felt submissiveness was a feminine quality, instead of being a quality. I will definitely make sure when I'm posting to watch for myself equating feminine/submissive/weakness, but I can sense how wrong it is. Its all I've ever associated with. I've got some issues man, forced into one too many dresses or something. The only submissiveness I know of is abuse, although I keep hearing people put it in a positive or sexy light, there's something out there more then the bullshit I have experienced apparently.

You used the phrase "submissive butch"...that will give me something to ponder.

I think I might be changing the topic slightly here, I apologize

[psykftm]

are you saying that your girlfriend is the dominate one in the relationship? you can say that you are submissive, or have submissive tendencies, it's ok lol. own them![/QUOTE]

Funny we just got into it yesterday over this and my girlfriend said I make her feel like more of a femme, which is upsetting to her as a butch. I'm thinking it's due to my insecurities, because the second you try to 'pin' submissiveness on me lol, my mind goes "hey now wait a minute". Who knows maybe I just don't know how to be a dom. Or maybe I am submissive, or both...its going to be a freakin enigma to me for awhile it looks like.

[DapperButch]

are you saying that your girlfriend is the dominate one in the relationship? you can say that you are submissive, or have submissive tendencies, it's ok lol. own them!

Funny we just got into it yesterday over this and my girlfriend said I make her feel like more of a femme, which is upsetting to her as a butch. I'm thinking it's due to my insecurities, because the second you try to 'pin' submissiveness on me lol, my mind goes "hey now wait a minute". Who knows maybe I just don't know how to be a dom. Or maybe I am submissive, or both...its going to be a freakin enigma to me for awhile it looks like.[/QUOTE]

Is it possible you both are consciously or unconsciously looking to have the "butch-femme dance", in your relationship, even though you are two butches? It seems like you both struggle with not feeling like "the butch" in the relationship. Can't you both be butch and just have your "own dance"? What about the butch-butch dance?

My point is...get what you expect out of your head and just go with the flow...don't label it.

Good luck.

[psykftm]

Is it possible you both are consciously or unconsciously looking to have the "butch-femme dance", in your relationship, even though you are two butches? It seems like you both struggle with not feeling like "the butch" in the relationship. Can't you both be butch and just have your "own dance"? What about the butch-butch dance?

My point is...get what you expect out of your head and just go with the flow...don't label it.

Good luck.[/QUOTE]

That is a good point-I think maybe unconsciously we do both get into these moments of the butch-femme dance. She does not struggle with her identity at all..."I'm Dee" she says. I still really struggle with how others see me, and how they will construct me in their minds. Just the other day I had some customer say I would look better with long hair. That to me is on the list of some of the worst things a person could say to me. I haven't learned how to roll it off my shoulder yet :(

I think my rationality is that if I fit a stereotype first, and be accepted, then I can relax into myself later but that is likely flawed I'm thinkin lol

[wahya]

This is an interesting thread. I am not all that great with words I am better one on one talking.(not txting email or phone) But for me being butch I never tried to analyze myself. Being a mother & grandmother my main character trait is my protective nature. But when you meet me you know I have more masculine traits than femme. Yeah I have been mistaken for a guy plenty of times. It used to bug me but now I just chuckle or in a harmless way embarrass them. But I know they are already embarrassed but at least maybe now they will take the time with other people and pay attention to them. I love who I am and being butch is right up there with my native pride.

[~ocean]

birth makes a butch a butch ~ just my personal opinion ~

[Chancie]

My Pete is a butch because she says she's a butch.

She's my boy because I say she's my boy.

[rustedrims]

For me and only speaking for myself.The circumstance that makes me feel most like a Butch is being in the presents of Pretty Femmes.Being around the ladies really brings it out for me.

[StrongButch]

I was born butch! Its my energy.

[Wolfsong]

Dang what a writer! lol but you brought something to mind mind which is great for me with this 'what makes a butch' topic. It would kill me for someone to call me feminine, as to why? The best I can come up with is it is not me.
I know labels suck, but since I'm working on trying to figure out who I am, I love them as descriptions.

Know what? I used to have this friend that whenever anyone ever asked her whether she was butch or not she would smile and say, "I'm not anything. I'm just me." At the time I guess you can say I didn't get it completely. The truth is I wasn't thinking about it anymore than if someone had asked her, "Why do you like that shirt?" and she replied; "I dunno. I just do."

That all changed when I started contemplating my own labels. Lord there were a lot of them. I always knew that my destiny was not to eventually transition, but I was set free when I had arrived in a place where people actually used male pronouns for me. Once that gate was open I was off through like a wolf that had been caught in a pen it's whole life. I let myself become a little of that Neanderthal asshole that everyone dislikes. *Shrugs.....learning curve.

What I would tell you is this. When I stopped looking for the perfect label I found myself. That perfect label, the perfect description for others, will stop you from being all of who you are. Don't waste time. There will be a moment when, for the very first time, you are able to look in the mirror and genuinely like the whole person looking back at you. I'm telling you the truth. That is the moment when you really start living.



So my question comes from this scenario as written above "the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd." Now if my butch girlfriend did that to me, that would be hot!



Tell her. If you are challenged to find the right words, print that post and show it to her.




Being in a butch-butch relationship has turned up some threats to masculinity, like in pictures, she doesn't like it when I have my arm over her shoulder, because it makes her feel less butch. Well then I feel less butch.
I'm sure this is why someone would question a butch-butch relationship, but its so worth it lol!

I don't want to say I have a submissive side. I might, but it can't be considered feminine. I wanna know how other butches feel about these tight areas (if I have described it enough)...hopefully this is all still on topic

take care

So I'm not the best person to give advice on butch-butch relationships but consider this....

http://images.inmagine.com/img/aspireimages/cd266/336129rkt.jpg

What I would say is that once you become more secure in yourself some of that shit won't matter anymore. There are so many things in every day life that do not need gender assignment but we force them anyway because we feel like it what we need to have to establish our own identities.

What you are really talking about right there is this right?.....The refusal of a common gesture of love and tenderness, the feeling of belonging to and giving of one heart to another because it violates some ingrained belief of male and femaleness?

*Blinks


Funny we just got into it yesterday over this and my girlfriend said I make her feel like more of a femme, which is upsetting to her as a butch. I'm thinking it's due to my insecurities, because the second you try to 'pin' submissiveness on me lol, my mind goes "hey now wait a minute". Who knows maybe I just don't know how to be a dom. Or maybe I am submissive, or both...its going to be a freakin enigma to me for awhile it looks like.

Maybe I missed it someplace in your posts. Are the two of you in a BDSM relationship? Because that is where the terms Dominant and submissive come from in the way that you are using them. D/s is not for everyone nor is it a naturally progressive state from one type of relationship to another. Neither role is specific to a gender.

[psykftm]

Heya you said:
Know what? I used to have this friend that whenever anyone ever asked her whether she was butch or not she would smile and say, "I'm not anything. I'm just me." At the time I guess you can say I didn't get it completely. The truth is I wasn't thinking about it anymore than if someone had asked her, "Why do you like that shirt?" and she replied; "I dunno. I just do."

lol my girlfriend is like that. "I'm just Dee".

You said:
"I was set free when I had arrived in a place where people actually used male pronouns for me. Once that gate was open I was off through like a wolf that had been caught in a pen it's whole life."

You're probably right, I have this guy at work that calls me sir, and that kinda thing helps, I don't really know why though.

You said:
"What I would tell you is this. When I stopped looking for the perfect label I found myself. That perfect label, the perfect description for others, will stop you from being all of who you are. Don't waste time. There will be a moment when, for the very first time, you are able to look in the mirror and genuinely like the whole person looking back at you. I'm telling you the truth. That is the moment when you really start living."

Really good description. I mean my girlfriend was really into femmes, but I don't think she looked to label me as butch, she liked who I was. I want to somehow balance being proud to be a butch with not relying on the label so much

You said:
Tell her. If you are challenged to find the right words, print that post and show it to her.

and you also said:
Maybe I missed it someplace in your posts. Are the two of you in a BDSM relationship? Because that is where the terms Dominant and submissive come from in the way that you are using them. D/s is not for everyone nor is it a naturally progressive state from one type of relationship to another. Neither role is specific to a gender.

Well....I don't think she likes anything to do with bdsm, we might run into a compatibility issue. The only way I could really get that hotness off of being walked through the crowd is if the person...liked to dominate? Dee is really gentle...I don't think I am, and would rather be handled roughly myself. Oye...


Thanks for the advice...I do tend to just blend butch/femme sub/dom all together

[Ascot]

I've been thinking a bit about this since I saw this topic on the front page the other day. Rare is it that I actually consider what makes me butch because like anything other aspect, it is inextricably woven into my very fiber. Butchness is simply another thread in my tapestry. When a straight female friend was talking about wanting me in her wedding, sans any prompting from me she said, "And of course you can wear a tux." So a part of who I am is my butchness that it seems my being anything but doesn't even occur to anyone else. A couple of friends' kids who are certainly old enough to know I am female refer to me as Uncle Lise on their own accord and it just makes sense to everyone even though I am not male identified. Perhaps I'm fortunate in that I've known I was butch since I was really young and my parents were open minded enough to let me be who I was. My mother knew enough to buy me the jeans with the reinforced knees and the Converse chucks with no pink on them. She did clamp a bit on the sound that I made while playing shooting games with my buddies, but that was only because I was running around the neighborhood shouting "douche douche!" (you must admit, with enough emphasis, it makes a pretty good gun noise) Everything I do is imbued with female masculinity because I am. The way I smoke a cigar, the way I arrange flowers, that I love to cook, the way I fuck. Do those things make me butch? I don't know. I just know they make me, me.

[Wolfsong]

Heya you said:


Well....I don't think she likes anything to do with bdsm, we might run into a compatibility issue. The only way I could really get that hotness off of being walked through the crowd is if the person...liked to dominate? Dee is really gentle...I don't think I am, and would rather be handled roughly myself. Oye...


Thanks for the advice...I do tend to just blend butch/femme sub/dom all together

Listen, there are plenty of people here with a lot of experience with BDSM (I am not one of them) that can help you with that and they are typically very open to people that are interested.

I've been thinking a bit about this since I saw this topic on the front page the other day. Rare is it that I actually consider what makes me butch because like anything other aspect, it is inextricably woven into my very fiber. Butchness is simply another thread in my tapestry. When a straight female friend was talking about wanting me in her wedding, sans any prompting from me she said, "And of course you can wear a tux." So a part of who I am is my butchness that it seems my being anything but doesn't even occur to anyone else. A couple of friends' kids who are certainly old enough to know I am female refer to me as Uncle Lise on their own accord and it just makes sense to everyone even though I am not male identified. Perhaps I'm fortunate in that I've known I was butch since I was really young and my parents were open minded enough to let me be who I was. My mother knew enough to buy me the jeans with the reinforced knees and the Converse chucks with no pink on them. She did clamp a bit on the sound that I made while playing shooting games with my buddies, but that was only because I was running around the neighborhood shouting "douche douche!" (you must admit, with enough emphasis, it makes a pretty good gun noise) Everything I do is imbued with female masculinity because I am. The way I smoke a cigar, the way I arrange flowers, that I love to cook, the way I fuck. Do those things make me butch? I don't know. I just know they make me, me.

I was not quite so fortunate. My mom was forever and up until about 7th grade when I finally put my boots down about it trying to femmify me. In 6th grade she picked a bra for me that was probably not the best choice as it had a padded liner. Now, I mentioned previously that these things were big enough for their own zip code. It wasn't much different back then except......back then it was painful and humiliating. That bra ruined me for about a week. One of those cheerleading bitches yelled out over the lunch room for everyone to look at my boobage because I had clearly stuffed my bra. No real way to prove that at the short length I was willing to go at the time. I stomped out of there humiliated, and angry with hot tears running down my face. I didn't know at the time it would only last until the next unwitting target presented itself.

[Corkey]

Heya you said:


Well....I don't think she likes anything to do with bdsm, we might run into a compatibility issue. The only way I could really get that hotness off of being walked through the crowd is if the person...liked to dominate? Dee is really gentle...I don't think I am, and would rather be handled roughly myself. Oye...


Thanks for the advice...I do tend to just blend butch/femme sub/dom all together

Here's a bit of information, unsolicited...Never assume Identities, relationships and or Domance, within a community. We have Femmes who are Doms, and boi's/boys who are subs. This whole subject has it's own thread.

Here is one. Click on Forums on the front page and happy exploring, and welcome to the Planet. http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=970

[macele]

are you saying that your girlfriend is the dominate one in the relationship? you can say that you are submissive, or have submissive tendencies, it's ok lol. own them!

Funny we just got into it yesterday over this and my girlfriend said I make her feel like more of a femme, which is upsetting to her as a butch. I'm thinking it's due to my insecurities, because the second you try to 'pin' submissiveness on me lol, my mind goes "hey now wait a minute". Who knows maybe I just don't know how to be a dom. Or maybe I am submissive, or both...its going to be a freakin enigma to me for awhile it looks like.[/QUOTE]



time helps with learning about ourselves. most need to go through the labels in order to work it all out in our minds and hearts. we all are unique. you are your own butch. there's not another you in this whole wide world. keep what works, ... throw the rest back.

[puddin']

I'm thinking it's due to my insecurities...


i'm curious as to why it's about YOUR insecurities?

[macele]

hey puddin'. i meant to bold my text so that it wouldn't all blend. psykbutch is discussing insecurities. i do have them though lol.

[Ascot]

Scratch everything I previously said. Clearly what makes me butch is the fact that my bowling ball looks like an 8-ball.

[Wolfsong]

Listen, there are plenty of people here with a lot of experience with BDSM (I am not one of them) that can help you with that and they are typically very open to people that are interested.



Psky -

Ok ......some of them. One thing is certain, if you step on someone's label around here you can be sure that several someones will let you know about it.

:doh:

Don't sweat the small stuff in any case. Know what the real truth is? Being butch to you is whatever the hell you want it to be. Yesterday some guy called me Sir 5 times in a 4 minute conversation AFTER I stopped him and said Sir my name is Margherita.

What I really wanted to say is "Listen pencil-dick, my name is "Margherita Natalia Luisa panty-wearing Wolferelli. Did you not hear me or are you just really that stupid?" I didn't say anything............I wear boxers. :|

[psykftm]

I just got back from sawmill..its a gay community in florida that allows lesbians to come and camp every now and then.

I saw a lot of couples that you would call butch/butch couples via appearance...makes me feel like its not as rare as it seems. However, the couple who comes to mind with this...no way would I walk up to them and be all "hey, your in a butch/butch relationship?" I think they met each othewr and liked each other, and that was it...I get the feeling that they reject labels altogether..sounding more and more like the way to go..but at the same time I have pride in being butch.

I guess how this all relates to what defines a butch for me....part of it for me is my admiration/love for butches. Dammit I had a thought but I got drunk

[Ascot]

What about, rather than putting any sort of pressure on yourself to define/determine what sort of butch you are, you simply strive to get the best sense of self you can? Perhaps in doing that the butch tumblers will fall into place for you. As I said above, my butchness isn't generally something I even think about because it's simply one aspect of my existence. While I understand how labels are useful in the context of some conversations because they help delineate constructs, for the most part I'm inclined to say, "Fuck 'em."

I'm curious about something else. You've said that part of what defines butch for you is your "admiration/love for butches". By that do you mean women who present in the physical way that reads butch to you (allowing for the fact that we come in every conceivable shape, size, attire, hair style, plumage, etc), or are you also talking about that energy, in all its permutations, that is endemic to the butch nation? I ask because it's always interesting to me to find out what turns people on. And, probably, I'm nosy.

[psykftm]

What about, rather than putting any sort of pressure on yourself to define/determine what sort of butch you are, you simply strive to get the best sense of self you can? Perhaps in doing that the butch tumblers will fall into place for you. As I said above, my butchness isn't generally something I even think about because it's simply one aspect of my existence. While I understand how labels are useful in the context of some conversations because they help delineate constructs, for the most part I'm inclined to say, "Fuck 'em."

"I'm curious about something else. You've said that part of what defines butch for you is your "admiration/love for butches". By that do you mean women who present in the physical way that reads butch to you (allowing for the fact that we come in every conceivable shape, size, attire, hair style, plumage, etc), or are you also talking about that energy, in all its permutations, that is endemic to the butch nation? I ask because it's always interesting to me to find out what turns people on. And, probably, I'm nosy.


Finding out what type of butch I am has been problematic for me, so I'm definitely trying to retrain my mind to not label myself...however, when I see someone who identifies as butch....it makes me so happy lol, butches who identify as butch must have some pride there, right?
Lol I really don't know what I meant by my admiration of other butches is part of what makes me butch...more like a brotherhood/sense of belonging feeling? But a butch that really turns me on...will come up and shove me, and if I shove back, which I will lol, my type of hot butch is durable if not stronger than I am. When this butch shaves my head, it digs in rough so I can feel it-roughness is huge for me. Confident butches are super hot. Short hair, baggy clothes...the walk haha. Butches that pack are also a huge turn on. If it didn't freak my gf out, I might pack too. (she also does not pack. I'm lucky we are together in the first place, she likes femmes, but she did like "me".)

And some of the butchness ties into bdsm stuff for me...
So thanks to CheryINYC, I now have this term I can throw around for myself..."submissive butch". I mean, I'm not going to be bossed around or anything, I'm a bit of a switch anyway. I'm five foot nothing, so its hard for me to think someone would take me seriously as a dom, especially since I'm not much of an entertainer.

I love dom butches though. But no degradation/shame, and they can't say "obey me" or "submit"...it would have to be more like.. jeez I donno..."you're going to relax. Stop fighting me. Now." You know, all standing over me and shit daring me to challenge it.
That's one of my wrestling fantasies. Just that firm confidence. So I guess I'm saying the dynamic has to be right. My girlfriend is not into bdsm...it would kill me if we broke up over it, but the incompatibility might be a major problem. Now she's a gentle butch, but she's bigger than me, even though I'm stronger....but, she is a manger :D

I think I'm gonna stop there; hope I actually answered your question somewhere in there lolz

[TruTexan]

I was born butch I believe, honestly I do. I fit so well in my butchness it's like being "home". I have the walk, swagger, whatever else you wanna say. I'm just me and I'm butch. I also believe my "attitude" is also what makes me butch to an extent. How I carry myself.
But, I would look like whoopie goldberg in a dress and heels....lmao I can't walk in heels and I look out of place in a dress and makeup. Just don't work for me at all. LOL
No offense to anyone else, butch or not, that can wear feminine clothing, and I completely understand that some jobs butches have calls for them to wear more feminine clothing. Wear what you want when you either have to or want to, the clothing doesn't make you butch......YOU MAKE YOU BUTCH!!

[QueenofSmirks]

Funny we just got into it yesterday over this and my girlfriend said I make her feel like more of a femme, which is upsetting to her as a butch. I'm thinking it's due to my insecurities, because the second you try to 'pin' submissiveness on me lol, my mind goes "hey now wait a minute". Who knows maybe I just don't know how to be a dom. Or maybe I am submissive, or both...its going to be a freakin enigma to me for awhile it looks like.

I've seen some posts in this thread that have suggested you and your girlfriend have some subconscious interest in the "butch-femme" dance. I don't really understand that, it seems to imply that some type of power dynamic equates a butch-femme relationship :: shrug :: In any case, I think you can also drop the assumption that one of you must be "submissive." There *is* such a thing as just being a bottom, or a receiver, all times, sometimes, or once in a blue moon. It doesn't have to "mean" anything except that you like sex the way you like it. You don't need to put a label on it.

Lastly, you've mentioned a couple of times that you and your girlfriend may be incompatible when it comes to BDSM - I hope you find a way to work it out, to both your satisfaction.

[Loren_Q]

...snip...

And some of the butchness ties into bdsm stuff for me...
So thanks to CheryINYC, I now have this term I can throw around for myself..."submissive butch". I mean, I'm not going to be bossed around or anything, I'm a bit of a switch anyway. I'm five foot nothing, so its hard for me to think someone would take me seriously as a dom, especially since I'm not much of an entertainer.


You might be surprised... I know a number of tops/doms that hover at the 5' mark. Dominance isn't about size, it's about composure and authority.

Personally, I find it thrilling that I can engage with someone who could throw me across the room, but I know they won't.

[dykeumentary]

Hi -
Just putting this out there, and yes I've struggled with this before...

I just had a medical emergency that will take a few months to heal. I won't be able to do my work (construction ) during that time. I am clear that being "butch" is not limited to what's referred to as "able-bodied people," but FOR ME so much of what makes me feel butch overlaps with my body and what my body does.
So now that I am very limited, I feel sad and scared that I'm not as butch as I was before.
I used to play sports, be super active all day long, run and jump and work and dance and have very physical sex. I just found out yesterday how long this recovery might take. I am worried, even though I know it's silly to think like this. *sigh*

[macele]

hey dyke. i've felt/feel this. and in no way are your feelings silly. i went through a lot before and after heart surgery. i'm still having to learn how to handle the stress of never being the same. certain things. i've really beat myself up. don't do that to yourself.

i feel like i've lost some of my butch swagger. hurts my ego. and not being able to do what i love, what makes me who i am, ... frustrating.

there's always a new that will take the used to be's place.

because i've delayed the healing both physically and mentally. because i thought i didn't deserve. because i had lost. because i have been so angry. i have not been kind to myself.

be kind to yourself. let's both be kind.

thank you for sharing.

mac