Embracing faith and sexuality

[yotlyolqualli]

Hello!

Some of you, who have read my other posts, know that I was raised Mennonite. I didn't want to "hijack" the other thread where I was posting, so I decided to post a new thread.


Helping me to embrace my sexuality and my faith, was, amazingly enough, the way I was raised. Mennonites are taught, even as children, to memorize scripture, to never blindly follow someone or someone's teaching. We're taught to always question, always search scripture for ourselves and a personal, one on one relationship with God was quintessential to the Mennonite faith and way of life.

Having been raised Mennonite, indeed living and practicing the faith for 30 years before I came out, made coming out a very scary and painful process. Not only did I have to come out to my family, friends and church, I had to come out to myself.

I had a hard time dealing with being gay, and in that fear, I ran, right into the worst kind of relationship, anyone can have.

However, it was that relationship that made me get a grip on my fear, a grip on the shame that flooded my soul and a grip on standing up for myself and getting out of that relationship.

My mother always told us girls, "you are no better than anyone else, however, you are also the daughters of the King of kings and Lord of lords and whoever wants to share your life with you, had better treat you as such!"

Those words and everything I had ever learned, scripturally, culturally and emotionally, began to move and breathe and syncronize.

Scripture is full of things that are to be condemned and things that are to be commended. There are certain scriptures that call homosexuality an abomination, I won't argue that point with anyone. However, while attending a very ultra conservative Anabaptist/Mennonite Bible college, one of my classes just happened to be, Christian ethics. In that class we studied the law of Moses and the scriptures that included the scripture that condemns homosexuality. The law of moses (not ONLY the ten commandments) but the entire law, found written in the book of Exodus, basically fell into three categories.

First, health... the law about seperating a person from the whole, if that person were sick... or not eating the blood of an animal (blood born diseases) or not eating an animal you didn't kill yourself (an animal dead by unknown means)... the list goes on. But these laws, and they were laws, were put in place to obtain and maintain health for the entire tribe of Isreal.

The next category, "Worship of God" this is where "thou shalt have no other God's before me" and remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy" falls under, and again, there are more such laws.

The third category, and this is where the homosexuality being wrong falls under, Procreation. God wanted the nation of Isreal to grow, so. "do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman" is the most used scripture, after Soddom and Ghomorah, to condemn homosexuality. But along with that was also such laws as "do not have sex with your wife 7 days prior, 7 days of and 7 days after her period. Why? Well, the one week out of the month where it was "lawful" to have sex with your wife, was also the week she would be most fertile. Again, the list goes on.

So, knowing that, things started coming into perspective for me. Add to that, the scripture in the New Testament, about living under grace, and not under the law, as well as other scripture, led me to the awesome and undeniably joyful realization that God created me, just as I am, and He loves me, just as I am.

I'll add more later, or even answer questions if anyone has any. My mind is telling me to stop thinking so hard....*S

BTW, just as an added thing... the "name" YotlYolqualli is made up of two words in the Nuahtl language. An Ute-Aztecan friend of mine, gave me this name, after I had made a ceremonial blanket for her, to take with her, up on the hill. Loosely translated, Yotl means essence of woman and Yolqualli means purity of heart.

Take care.

[yotlyolqualli]

I just read over my previous post and realized that while I explained why, I didn't really explain how.

Spoiler: There will be actualy Biblical references and verses quote here. If this offends you, you may not want to read it.

How does one become "saved, born again, a Christian?" What does one have to do to "become" a Christian?

Many people will answer these questions in many different ways. Now, I'm going to "quote" scripture, and I mean really quote, because I am not in the mood to go look things up, so I will be quoting from memory.

The first question, how is one born again? That is not a stupid question even the disciples asked that of Jesus.

There are several verses that pop into mind:

Proverbs 3:5&6
Trust in the Lord with all your might and do not rely on your own insight, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make straight your paths.

Trust and faith and belief are KEY to salvation or being "born again"

I can't recall the book and chapter of the next verse that just popped into my head...

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us."

Once we DO accept that gift of salvation, we continue to live under mercy, further, that verse states difinitively, that we can do nothing, to become born again. All the good we ever do, will amount to nothing in the end, if we don't believe.

That brings me to the next key passage of scripture.
John 3:16-21

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him, will not perish but have eternal life. For God sent not His Sone into the world, to condemn the world, but to save the WORLD through Him. Those who believe are NOT condemned, but those who do not believe stand condemned already, because they have not believed in God's one and only Son. Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light, because their deeds were evil, whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it can be seen plainly, that what he has done, has been done through God.

Salvation is a gift for EVERYONE, there is not one single person on this planet from the beginning to the end of time, whom God did not create, whom God does not love, nor whose sin was/is not covered by the blood shed on the cross.

So, what do we have to do?

While people seem to think that THIS is where all the "do's and don'ts" come into play, you're wrong.

Again, not looking up book, chapter or verse

If you confess with your mouth, that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved to the Glory of God the Father.

That's it. Confess with your mouth, speak it out loud, believe in your heart and you will be saved.

Other verses that were key to helping me synchronize my faith and sexuality...

"There is no condemnation for those who love the Lord."
Self explanatory.

"Jesus is no respecter of persons, neither male or female, nor Jew or Gentile."
When Jesus see's us, He see's a soul, not a gender.

The last verse (for this post anyway...lol) says it all.

1 John 4: 7&8

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God, and he who loveth is born of God and knoweth God, he who loveth not, knoweth not God, for God IS Love.


Ok, done for now.. making potato salad for the family picnic. Hope your Memorial day was a memorable one!

God bless and take care,
Lissa

[Okiebug61]

Hi Lissa,

Thank you for starting this thread. I look forward to reading your thoughts and hearing what others think. Red and I are both Methodists so our religious backgrounds are pretty laid back compared to most. We are fortunate to have a great church http://www.ststephensnorman.org/ that is open to all without being asked to change.

Great thread!

[yotlyolqualli]

I am excited about this thread too! Thanks for your interest!

I just read over my second post and I really botched John 3:16-21.
I'm going to try again.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him, will not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son, into the world, to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Those who believe in Him, are not condemned, but those who do not believe in Him, stands condemned already for they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Anyone who does evil, hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed, but whoever lives by the truth comes into the light so that it may be seen plainly, that what he has done has been done through God.

[Viola]

Hello Lissa,

I guess this goes back to either grace or legalism,

I find I can only grow in grace, I really don't do very well with trying to perfecting laws in order for approval.

Even if this happens between myself and another person - seeking for approval through ability of perfecting performance laws: its so fearing of pride condemnation, which I say is opposite then love. I love grace even with people.

I've met people who's so strick with laws that I can't get their approval even if I try and if I try, what am I really doing anyways, I can't be me...

I had not yet gone and I'm sure there's many gay friendly churches there, but from reading your post I went and look up: http://agcmcc.org/about_mcc.htm

Also I saw with this thread that Okiebug61 shared another church which I look up http://www.ststephensnorman.org/

um, one thing I want to share about me: I had witness a tragic that shaken me to the core, in my past, and its a challenge to even heal from, as I'm still effected by this tragic, and sometimes I wonder will I ever be free from it, as it seems to have its hold on me...

However its God who I go to and been learning from God about this tragic and slowly healing and understanding a way of thinking so I can be more healthier to be around.

I have a personal relationship with God as mess up I am. And that's it, I'm a mess and still make messes ok, and its ok for me to be a mess and not perfect any laws., I don't have to perfect anything.

What about the law of love anyways, and even this did you know I fail at love?

I can't even love... Cause even the word love is so destroyed by this tragic, its so screwed up for me., and I'm lost to even how to share about this tragic, but its God who's really comfort me, just as I am, as mess up as I am, I'm in a relationship with God just as I am, its ok for me to be me with God and God is my home just as I am.


I need God as I allow God feed me and teach me, and its through allowing...

But this notice of the bible, it confuses me, why no one explains to me how the human race even is, as Eve's sons had to have sex with Eve to continue the human race...

Yes that's how I take it, cause I don't read any sisters siblings but only of Eve's sons and even if there were sisters, can you imagine having sex with your siblings...

Now talk about not having much choices for a mate...

Even if one of Adam's sons were gay, to whom to be gay to., his brother or father... and even if gay, then its all up to the other brother to have sex with his sister...

I don't know but this sounds like incests to me...

[Ebon]

Although I don't practice any religion I am deeply spiritual and I find this thread absolutely beautiful. Thank you for sharing your experience. Mennonite is one religion I have never studied but it sounds interesting. I'm fascinated by all religions and what people believe in. Not in a bad or condescending way, just because I have my own way of practicing my spirituality and dealing with being queer and I love to learn about people's different beliefs. I grew up baptist but I grew out of it.

"However, it was that relationship that made me get a grip on my fear, a grip on the shame that flooded my soul and a grip on standing up for myself and getting out of that relationship."

This resonated with me. It sounds like a hell of a lesson that you learned.

"First, health... the law about seperating a person from the whole."

I'm interested to know more about this as well.

"The third category, and this is where the homosexuality being wrong falls under, Procreation. God wanted the nation of Isreal to grow, so. "do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman" is the most used scripture, after Soddom and Ghomorah, to condemn homosexuality. But along with that was also such laws as "do not have sex with your wife 7 days prior, 7 days of and 7 days after her period. Why? Well, the one week out of the month where it was "lawful" to have sex with your wife, was also the week she would be most fertile. Again, the list goes on."

I saw a documentary called "For The Bible Tells Me So" and some of the "experts" were saying that these types of laws were in place because the population was so low and they were trying to get people to procreate.

Thank you for this thread!

[mariamma]

Hi Yotlyol,
Not sure why I like calling you that :) I wonder if it means 'pure woman' or 'heart woman'.
I have a strangely opposite and similar way of living spirituality and sexuality. I am 1 of 9 kids, 7 girls and 2 boys. My mother was born as American English as you can get and broke the mold by having 9 kids with 6 different men. I was raised as a vagabond hippie, my mother white (strawberry blond) my 5 blond and 1 ginger haired sister, my deaf sister, my 1/4 Japanese brother and me (African and English American).
I know very little about my father's family as he died before I could meet him in person but I spoke on the phone with him several times. My mother's family were Xian scientists, scientists and educated. She didn't practice any faith but I have been a pagan since 14 and a lesbian since 16. My love of the Goddess brought me to loving women.
I love science and science has been a huge part of my faith since I had a faith. I am an energy worker, a nurse, have studied herbs since 14, a dancer, a mother of 3 and all this is integral to my faith and spiritual practice. My spiritual practice is Shamanic in form, non-codified since for me, codifying spirit makes the energy evaporate. I have a spirit guide who has made life simple and complex for me. She has made learning new things easier and taught me intense things. What I can boil it down to is, our connection to God/dess, The Creator, The Source, The Universe, The One is via hormones, neurotransmitters and the other trace protein structures that make all Life think/do/feel everything we think/do/feel. I know The Source and I connect to The Source via estrogen. Estrogen is 1 of 2 psychic keys (serotonin being the other) that I know of. There may be more. I don't know yet. And the idea of a paternalistic Guy who cares about homosexuality doesn't feel like any spirit or God I've ever met. They VERY MUCH CARE about how mean or nice one is, if you lie, cheat, cause sorrow in another, cause pain, etc. If you love with a full heart, swoon with desire, share loving experiences with others, you celebrate life and spirit (hormonal, etc.) energy with others, with spirits and with God. Also with the horde (collection of snarling energy-sucking negative, greedy, malevolent 'djinni' for lack of a better term) but that's another story.
There are many paths to God. The point is to walk it with love. Living without love of God/dess causes violence and insanity. Living with love, with joy, with respectful appreciation of life and everyone (humans, animals, plants, etc.) who is alive with you brings one close to God. And then there's the Ubunta belief, (bad paraphrase but basically, When I laugh, you laugh, when you have sorrow, I have sorrow'). An old belief that I feel today. This is how I know God is real.
Anyways...similar yet different.
Be well and thanks for starting the thread.

[yotlyolqualli]

There's a popular sountry song that says, "you've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for everything".

I think the same can be said about faith. I believe that each and every man, woman and child; past, present or future, are born with a yearning inside of them. A yearning to be one with their Creator. It is a hunger, if you will, that makes us seek to satisfy it.

I have written and rewritten this "part 3" several times, from a standpoint of not wanting to sound preachy nor wanting to offend. I was finding myself trying to be religiously ultra-PC (politically correct). However, I began this thread to explain how I myself, came to be able to embrace my sexuality, without giving up or altering my belief and faith.

I don't want this to become a battle ground for proselytizing, which "is the act of attempting to convert people to another opinion and, particularly, another religion."

I had no intentions of doing that and I truly hope and ask that those who come here to share their own faith and their own spiritual journey, that we do so with respect to and for each other. I am NOT saying that this IS what is happening, I am acknowledging that it is a possibility when we're talking about such a personal and profound thing such as faith.

Mari and Viola and Ebon, thank you so much for your thoughts and input. I am profoundly moved by what Mari and Viola shared.

Mari, to come from the past, as you have, to find such an incredible understanding of yourself, the world around you, nay the universe around you, inspires me to meditate with more focus, on my own surroundings and coorelating them with my faith.

Viola, my heart hurt when I read your post. I have thought of how to word what I want to say to you and again, I've had trouble doing it because I truly know what you are feeling and I do not want to offend you or in any other way, cause you any more strife.

Two things you said in your post, took my breath away, because you are already learning what Love really is. You said that you don't know what love is, that you fail at love. Love never fails, Viola, we, as humans, do. God is Love. The fact that you feel, with God, the ability to be yourself, "just as I am" you said, in all your imperfections, you can still be with God. Don't you see, that that is what love is? Love is embracing someone with all their imperfections and "messiness" with all their emotions and spiritual victories, defeats and still ongoing battles.

Viola, if you have never, ever felt loved by any other human being around you, if you've never been shown an example of true love, by any human around you, I am telling you, that your ability and belief that you can be yourself and God still is with you, comforting you and bringing you peace, I say, Viola, that even where mankind has failed in your life, to show you love, you are feeling it with and from and for, God. That is a miracle, Viola. I don't know what you witnessed, I don't need to know. I can tell from your post that it was horrifically traumatizing for you and that you can now find peace with God... there is no other word for it, besides miracle!

As for legalisms and grace. Again, I stand on scripture when I say that scripture tells us that before the coming of Christ, before the sacrifice of His life, before His blood was shed, we lived by law. Now that death has been defeated, now that His blood covers all sin, we can live by grace.

As for questioning what is in the Bible. I am the FIRST to say that the Bible is NOT a blow by blow guide as to what we are supposed to do. The Bible is a tool, just like a hammer. Try driving a nail into wood, without a tool, like a hammer. Try blow drying your hair without a blow dryer. Try cooking without heat, try swimming on dry land, try closing your eyes and walking through the streets of New York and get to your destination without getting hit by a car. Without a guide, without a tool, those things would be impossible.

The Word of God, is an inspiration. It shows the agony, the many defeats, the many temptations, evils and horrible things that the world and mankind has to offer. But, it also shows us, what consequences there are to such things, not only that, most importantly, it shows us how to overcome those things.

The three most important things that the entire Bible has to offer are "Peace, Hope and Love. But the greatest of those three, is Love." Scripture says that those three things are what abides throught eternity. Now abides those three things.

Salvation was/is a gift from Creator/Father God, to and for His creation. That gift is what brings about peace and hope and that was/is accomplished through Love.

I'll add more later, but my mind is getting muggy so I'm going to out and walk and think.

Take care and God bless.

[yotlyolqualli]

I'll finish part 3 later on.

[mariamma]

I agree Yotlyol. About proselytizing and love and miracles. I like to see and react to the similarities, not the differences. I believe all life has the same spiritual tradition, we silly humans just call it something different. There are too many common threads for there to be differing religions. Honoring the similarities honors you and me. I cannot walk your path, you cannot walk mine. I would only divert you from your path if I made you do something different. That will not bring me or you closer to God/dess.

[yotlyolqualli]

It's taken me while to get back to this. Sorry about that, life has a funny way of derailing even the best of plans.

Ok then. I think now is where I should explain, as best I can, how I came to be able to embrace my faith and sexuality.

First, there is a verse in scripture that states,
"There is no condemnation for those who love the Lord."

I love the Lord, so does this verse REALLY apply to me? Yes, it does. Scripture cannot not be and should not be, pulled apart and certain things applied to certain people. That's not what God intended and most certainly not what Jesus preached and lived. But what does it mean? I think that answer lies within all of us, we just each, individually, have to seek that answer for ourselves. My answer is that it means precisely what it says, "there is no condemnation for those who love the Lord." Not a single solitary one of us are above reproach or sinless. I don't mean only telling lies or getting and reacting wrongly in anger. ANYTHING that comes between me/you and God, is a sin. That means that even doing "the Lord's work" can become a sin, if it comes between you and God.

I want to delve a bit more deeper into this concept and verse. In another part of scripture, ti states, "If your brother can only eat bread and milk, don't invite him to your home and eat meat in front of him."
What that means is this, : Christ is the fullfillment of the Law, thereby allowing us to live by grace. However, just as a child needs strict structure in order to grown into a thriving well rounded adult, new believers need structure in order to become firm in their foundation. When that foundation is established, when that person can discern spiritual rights and wrongs, then he can move out of that structure.

What that tells me, is that we are each on our own path with God. Notice I said with, not too. God is with those who believe in Him. When we first start out, we need the structure of the law. It's necessary to build a foundation, but just like a child eventually grows up and tries things on his own, believer go through the same process of growth and coming to age. If I am doing something that does not spiritually seperate me from God IE: reading erotica, for example, there's nothing wrong with it. But with someone else, if they read it, or if they state they can't for fear of sinning, then I will sin if I encourage them to read it.

God works at His own pace. We can not put a time limit or schedule on Him. If there is sin in our lives, He will work with us to remove it. I know I am spending a good bit of time on this, but it was a crucial turning point for me.
I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but I also know that man can not exist on the same plain as God and can not be purely "divine" in thought or deed. Mankind wrote the scripture, so it is wrough not only with the writers thoughts and interpretations of what God was saying through them, but also was influenced by society around them.

For example, a lot of joking with SB in the chat room concerning my "prayer cap" is a prime example of writing for the times and society surrounding the writing of the books of Corinthians. Mennonites wear prayer veilings, prayer caps, or what most Menonite women call "coverings". They do so because in the books of Corinthians, it states, "a woman should have her head covered" when she prays. Now, it comes with all sorts of interpretations, IE: a sign of submitting to God's authority, orn a spouses spiritual authority and the list is as long as the list of differing Mennonite/Amish sects. However, back in the tim when those books were writting, a woman always covered her head, always, UNLESS, she was a prostitute. The whole concept of covering a woman's head had less or nothing to do with a "sign" of submission, and more to do with presenting oneself and her spouse and family at Temple, with respect and keeping from conforming to the non-believing populace.

So, I believe that since I love the Lord, I am not condemned. Since I put Him first, and search His inspired Word and my own heart, I can discern for myself, what is right and what is wrong.

Backing up a bit. The underlying premise of the "naysers" about homosexualirty, is that homosexuality is a choice, not something that is hardwired in a person. While I believe there are those who chose to be with members of the same sex, for various reasons, the majority of us, are born this way. The whole "God doesn't make mistakes" here, infuriates me. Because it's coming close to saying that anyone who is born who is even in the slightest way, different or abnormal, isn't perfect, and therefore, since it can't be a mistake from God, it must be something that they or their parents did.

That just angers me. I don't believe that God makes mistakes. Scripture tells us "You knitted me together in my mother's womb, you know the number of the hairs on my head, even before I was born... you loved and knew me, while I was still in that secret place." Loosely translated of course, but still. So why, are people born with deformities, blindness, more than 4 limbs, conjoined... the list goes on and on... why? God doesn't make mistakes.

But if God is Love, how can He allow "imperfection" in a child?

Now, this is where people start getting antsy with me and it's probably because I don't explain this very well. But, here goes. Genetics are the basis of each of us. Hair and eye color, igenetically inherited traits passed down from generation to generation. Scripture tells us that as mankinds mind becomes stronger, his body will become weaker. We see that evident in todays society. We're finding cures for illnesses, for cancers, for diseases and just when we figure one thing out, something else comes along and it's back to square one. Genetics.

In the Amish sect, there are more children born with downs syndrome, per ratio, than any other segment of society. Why? Because Amish, a very closed and cut off community, often intermarry. It got so bad at one point that the government actually paid to transport young single Amish men to different Amish communities, to find spouses. What am I getting at?

Evolution. Not darwins theory, but our own evolution of mankind. There is also a spiritual evolution. Back in biblical time, women were not to speak out in church. They were to remain silent and ask their husbands, at home. Men were to be the leaders of their family, not only in every day life, but in church life as well. As more and more men abandoned that role, women, were being gifted with the traits to be the ones who lead. Are we born homosexual? Yes. Was that ultimately God's plan? No. But neither was it God's plan to have to throw adam and eve out of eden because of sin. Neither was it God's plan that cain would kill able. It happens and because we are human and God created us with free choice, plans are altered, not because God wanted it that way, but because mankind did and does.

Ok, I'll stop there. I'm going to figure out where I want to go next and I want to open this up for questions. Thank you for "listening".

Take care and God bless.
Lissa

[yotlyolqualli]

Hello! This will be my last post on this subject. I will answer questions and respond to/with open dialogue, but I am hoping this ties everything up.

Thanks to all who showed an interest. This has made me revisit my own convictions and beliefs, and how I got to where I am now.

The last passage of scripture that made concrete my belief that I am NOT an abomination to God, is the following.

Christ is no respector of persons. Neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile.

To me, what that says is that when God looks at me, He see's the blood of His Son, He see's one of His creations who has accepted His and His Son's gift of salvation. He see's one of His children. He looks at my soul, not at my "gender".

The common interpretation of that passage of scripture, is that Christ died for all, and I don't disagree with that, in fact I strongly believe that. But, when searching prayerfully through scripture, and asking God to help me discern if being gay was right or wrong, I was always brought back to that particular passage.

Each person must, MUST learn and discern for themselves what is right and what is wrong. Each of us, must also decide what we believe and what we don't believe.

Is there right or wrong? Yes. Are there absolutes in scripture? Yes. Do I, or anyone, have a right to tell you what they are? No. They are things that you, we, each individually, must discern for ourselves.

Christianity and homsexuality do not negate each other. For me, one has nothing to do with the other.

"Lesbian" is a label, and just like a label on a soup can tells you what that particular can of soup is, the label lesbian tells you WHAT I am.

"Christian", is not a label. It is a living, breathing sign of WHO I am and WHO I follow, and Who lives in me.

"As lives the flower, within the seed
As in the cone, the tree
So praise the God of truth and grace
His Spirit dwelleth in me.

Christ liveth in me, Christ liveth in me
Oh what a salvation, this
That Christ liveth in me!"

Take care and God bless,
Lissa

[rustedrims]

I just read through this thread..
My Mom has a very strong belief in God and i do respect her for that..I do believe he takes care of the spiritual world..In the physcial world sometimes you need to react with a physcial reaction..Things happen as they do and you need to step up and take care of things on your own..I cant wait until the spirit finds me..I need help from a real person now..In the mean time while i wait for the spirit things get uncomfortable and the out come changes not for the good..I wish i had the strong beliefs my mom has..I do believe in something and on occasion feel something in my soul but i am not sure what it is..

s..