Sexism in Technology

[Medusa]

I was having a discussion the other night with a geeky friend and recalled various themes of sexism I have encountered at different levels of technology.

One good example of this is that I am a member of several other forums, several of which have nothing to do with gender, Queer, etc. On one of these forums I chose a screen name that is gender-neutral. I have posted on those forums for several months, having conversations on various topics, talking about my likes and dislikes. A few weeks ago, I became involved in a rather heated conversation with another woman. After several heated exchanges, several folks started coming into the thread telling me that I "ought to be ashamed of myself" for speaking to a woman that way and that I was NOT a gentleman. I was puzzled. Most of the people who made these statements were folks I had interacted with several times. After private messaging with a few of them, I was told that most everyone on the site had assumed I was a man because of my "stern way of communicating and articulation around topics that mostly men are concerned with" (like politics??? seriously??)

This wasnt the first time this had happened to me - that people had assumed I was a man by my written communication style. That, because I am a woman, they expected me to communicate online in a certain way?

Anyone else have this happen? Any Trans Males notice a difference in communications online since transitioning? Any Butches who have noticed this?

Some other issues that might be relevant to sexism in technology:

* The notoriously sexist advertising for GoDaddy.com
* Sexist hiring practices in the tech field?

Let's talk!

[Waldo]

Oh girl... don't even get me started with the Godaddy BS.

As you know I work in the domain name space. I run a domain name company. I deal with it online and in person All. The. Time.

I'm a member at several domain related forums under my real name and just a couple of months ago someone recommended a poster reach out to "Kellie at Name.com, she's awesome and will help you out in a snap". That poster was promptly "corrected" and told that Kellie was a man. Sigh.

I get it on another forum on a much more regular basis and you guessed it - I have a gender neutral user name. Even though I have "female-ish" listed as my gender. Seems communication styles do, indeed, play a major role in gender identification online.

[Medusa]

Oh girl... don't even get me started with the Godaddy BS.

As you know I work in the domain name space. I run a domain name company. I deal with it online and in person All. The. Time.

I'm a member at several domain related forums under my real name and just a couple of months ago someone recommended a poster reach out to "Kellie at Name.com, she's awesome and will help you out in a snap". That poster was promptly "corrected" and told that Kellie was a man. Sigh.

I get it on another forum on a much more regular basis and you guessed it - I have a gender neutral user name. Even though I have "female-ish" listed as my gender. Seems communication styles do, indeed, play a major role in gender identification online.


YAY! I was hoping you would chime in!

I was wondering, Kellie, do you ever talk to someone on the phone with your job and when they meet you in person, they have a noticeable reaction to the fact that you arent in a skirt and heels?

[Selenay]

Let's talk about advertisements.


http://contexts.org/socimages/files/2009/08/gameboyad.jpg


http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2008-12-11-images-hitman_dead_woman.jpg

Both women look, um, real happy to be there, huh?

The woman in the first looks visibly distressed and the second, well..
Not really sure what that's selling.

Or even better, this one

http://www.destructoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/chemensmag.jpg

Because women without minds, thoughts or actions of their own is really what I want!

I could go On And On but I'll pause here and come back when I'm less scattered

[Medusa]

BRILLIANT examples!

The first two are particularly violent. Im going to look for an ad that I remember seeing several years back to add to the collection.

Keep them coming, Selly!

[Selenay]

And while I'm on the subject...

Let's talk about science. When you google image "scientist" this is the first image of an actual (not cartoon, not VI) man

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Health/Images/physician-scientist.jpg


This is the first woman:

http://flair4genius.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/sexy_scientist.jpg


This is the first male computer geek alone (the second image on the page, the first being a cartoon rendering):
http://www.jimwcoleman.com/photoblog/1995%20computer%20geek.jpg


This is the first image that comes up for a woman alone under the same search:

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2007/startracks/070611/paris_hilton3.jpg

[Medusa]

Or this one from Dell:

http://stilettorevolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/delledit-1.jpg


I can hear the ad exec meetings now:

Ad exec 1: "I cant think of any good ideas to sell this computer!"

Ad exec 2: "Just stick a pretty woman on it!"

[Selenay]

http://www.mexned.nl/html/humour/Computer4Women.jpg


http://www.mexned.nl/html/humour/mouse-pad1.jpg

[SassyLeo]

Interesting topic. Good idea.

I'll first say, I am by no means an Engineer or DBA or Sys Admin.

But there is a small part of me which is technically savvy enough to hook up tech stuff/audio equipment/internet in my apt. Purchase and install memory in my own and others' laptops, repair/install the wifi at my mom's house while on vacation over Thanksgiving. Do some mild database work and create graphics/collateral for my job. General easy tech-y stuff.

AND (the big AND) I sometimes think they are surprised that I can. Not my family, per se, but work folks. I am sure some of it is because IT is typically a male dominated profession, but it used to piss me off that there was this perception that because I am a woman and not in an IT role, that I would be incapable of doing ANYTHING technical. The assumptions are frustrating. However, now that they have learned I can figure stuff out, folks in my dept generally call me to fix their computer issues before calling tech support. 9/10 of the time, I can do it.

And it doesn't help that we have people in much higher roles than mine, like the Controller...who can barely even use Excel. Not helping the stereotype, in my opinion. However, I guess I should be grateful the Controller is a woman :)

[Medusa]

And I cant tell you how many times I have heard that I "hired PapaChris or Linus to build this site"

(but that might be because people think Im stupid, not a woman) ;)

[Selenay]

And I cant tell you how many times I have heard that I "hired PapaChris or Linus to build this site"

(but that might be because people think Im stupid, not a woman) ;)

actually it's cuz you're from ar-kansas.

[WILDCAT]

Although this is "hardly" my area of expertise...

I will say the same theme, through administration in time, big corporations of any product, and now into the very technical fields there always appears to remain the toughest challange for women to prove themselves. Any field, it seems - where "advancement" may be giving credit to women...(?)

Hell, only fifty years ago - most women were still expected to just be housewives.

The tit mousepads... a bit offensive. I'm sure there are "other kinds" as well... (No thanks.)

And Medusa, you're an assertive women. Powerful women are unfortunately [still at times] considered only aggressive bitches - but, when it's a man in the same exact work situation EVEN being "aggressive" then (!), "he's one hell of a good strong intelligent employee/leader" in his field (heck, in this world).

That's the way I see it anyway - in a very generalized way. (I think Japan is better now in the technical field for sharing credit with women - I could be mistaken though.) We might be giving more now to women in the medical fields with technical advancements though... (?) I have a relative who recently began a field in cancer research.

The advertisements here are atrocious. (Frightening actually.)

My sister works for Intel. I'll have to get a quick opinion sex ratio from her (then their stats), for the higher paid positions. But, you're also talking about attitudes. Stat that (?) At least I know where she is they are a bit progressive with regards towards gay employees. Well, gay men, I'm not sure if it's equal in attitude with gay women. I'm not sure about transsexuals. I will "dig" around a bit with her.

How did you feel being referred to or assumed a gentleman [not?] Medusa?


WILD


Just my wooden nickel's worth anyway for a good thread start. Good luck.

[Linus]

My sister works for Intel. I'll have to get a quick opinion sex ratio from her (then their stats), for the higher paid positions. But, you're also talking about attitudes. Stat that (?) At least I know where she is they are a bit progressive with regards towards gay employees. Well, gay men, I'm not sure if it's equal in attitude with gay women. I'm not sure about transsexuals. I will "dig" around a bit with her.

WILD


Just my wooden nickel's worth anyway for a good thread start. Good luck.


I can bet, as I work with a large corporation that is up-and-coming in the software world, the higher Board of Director positions will be rarely women. Women in IT aren't really known. In fact, can you name any? You can name Bill Gates, Woz, Jobs, Torvalds but do you know of Ada Lovelace (first programmer), Grace Hopper (created COBOL language that's used in the majority of banks and other large institutions as the main language; this was also the language that caused all that stir about Y2K), Susan Kare (did all those graphics for icons and such on the Apple when it first appeared), Sally Floyd (worked on TCP, part of the protocols that built the internet) and so on.. Heck, there was Carly Fiorina, CEO of HP who walked out when she fought with the board and even my own company's first CEO, Diane Green, who also left after differences of opinion.

When I was an instructor at a private IT school, the majority of networking admin types (non-programmers) were guys. Very few women went through the course (odd since network admin requires more human contact and socialization if we're to look at gender roles and how communications are done) while programming (often a solitary job) was nearly or over 50% women.

Although IT tries to come across as being whacky and unique and not necessarily caring about gender, the reality is true. We expect IT support, admins and engineers to be men. We expect answers from men and the image of a geek is either the nerdy Matthew Broderick (see Wargames) or, if a woman, it's Angelina Jolie (Hackers). It's interesting that Sandra Bullock's character from The Net isn't something that comes to mind for people when thinking about women in science.

It's interesting that Google came up with those images as it's contrary to what I envisioned. When I think of scientist my first thought is an older woman in a lab coat. Bing's search results were similar but their first female images are better than the ones listed here. I know that there are (were?) programs in place to encourage women into math and sciences more but those programs don't seem as prominent as they used to be. Are they still in place?

[Selenay]

Currently, 15 FORTUNE 500 companies are run by women, and a total of 28 FORTUNE 1000 companies have women in the top job.

Of these, the highest ranking woman places 27th in the list.


When one looks at computer science in particular, however, the proportion of women has been falling. In 2001-2, only 28 percent of all undergraduate degrees in computer science went to women. By 2004-5, the number had declined to only 22 percent. Data collected by the Computing Research Association showed even fewer women at research universities like M.I.T.: women accounted for only 12 percent of undergraduate degrees in computer science and engineering in the United States and Canada granted in 2006-7 by Ph.D.-granting institutions, down from 19 percent in 2001-2. Many computer science departments report that women now make up less than 10 percent of the newest undergraduates.


I would go on but I gots thangz. Maybe later.


Sources:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/womenceos/
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.html

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I guess I am rather odd when it comes to sexism, I personally do not see anything wrong with the ads for things, sex sells for alot of products and it works, people gobble up certain products simply because of what the ad has displayed.

But what about the male underwear models? Isn't that sexism too?

I don't partake in technology so I am not much for conversation when it comes to that topic but I put my 2 cents in when I have an opinion.

[Bootboi]

I think its very true that there is alot of sexism within IT. I can recount many past and current experiences with sexism.

I am an IT exec for a fortune 500 company here in Minneapolis. I will also say that I am 1 of 2 women that are at exec management level. The other 14 are male. To get to this level has been nothing short of sheer bullheaded perseverance and a strong passion for what I do for a living.

Ive been discriminated against when applying for hire level jobs. Ive had a man win a position when he clearly did not have the qualifications to do so. I've also been called sir many times on the phone, undoubtedly because I have a very deep voice for a female. (not trans gender btw just good ol butch) ;) Even though I did answer the phone and gave them a clearly frilly feminine name. (ahh the perils of a butch being named a foo foo girly name ;))

When I moved on to my current employment it was really refreshing to feel that higher level positions were awarded on merit and accomplishments. It makes you feel like you have your feet well planted.

Historically, IT has been a male predominant field but as time progress's its not an all male environment anymore. Like any sterotyping cultures there has to be a starting point to breaking that proverbial glass ceiling. Breaking it comes with its ups and downs but the point is to keep pushing so we educate others into taking thier sexist blinders off and stop being ignorant.

The most technically savvy people Ive worked with in the past 15yrs have been women. Interestingly enough I will also say its been my experience that women tend to take a more holistic approach to IT than most males do. Go figue huh?

Anyhow, while it can really get on a persons nerves to be equivilated as being male because you possess technical knowledge. I think we need to keep in mind we are educating the ignorant.

If all else fails "Claw their eyes out" HA! :)

[Selenay]

But what about the male underwear models? Isn't that sexism too?

I don't partake in technology so I am not much for conversation when it comes to that topic but I put my 2 cents in when I have an opinion.



How can you POSSIBLY see male underwear models as being on the same PLANET as a woman on satin sheets in underwear with a BULLET IN HER HEAD selling a VIDEO GAME?

You're on a computer which automatically puts you in a category in which you use technology.


Good Lord I don't even know what else to say.

[Andrew, Jr.]

:bunchflowers: For Medusa

I just don't get sexism no matter what field. Look at medicine. Who would have ever imagined male nurses, and female doctors?

For me, I have more genetically male disorders. When I was being tested by a woman, by law, she had to confer with another doctor. The two were quite shocked at the results. They went to a 3rd doctor. Same response. 2 women, 1 man, but the same results.

Basic essentials of running a website I know that Dusa and Jack did great. I am sure Linus helped out with the smilies & Papa Chris did whatever. But that is just a small fraction of what is involved in something this huge. In the end, the full credit goes to Dusa and Jack. They are the ones who keep this site up and running all hours of the day and night. They are the ones who need full credit of our new home. For me, it makes no difference if someone is male or female id'ed. All that matters is that we are here together as a family. So, my hat is off to Medusa and Jack.

Medusa, do not ever let anyone tell you that you did nothing because you are a female. You do more than you will ever know. I have the utmost respect for you, and always have. You just hold your head high, and know that alot of us are so proud of you and your accomplishments.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

How can you POSSIBLY see male underwear models as being on the same PLANET as a woman on satin sheets in underwear with a BULLET IN HER HEAD selling a VIDEO GAME?

You're on a computer which automatically puts you in a category in which you use technology.


Good Lord I don't even know what else to say.



Use of a computer is technology but if you are talking about IT fields, etc I have no knowledge.

But I see anything that is sexual in any nature such as underwear models, the pics you posted on here, etc as sexism of both genders. But thats just my opinion.

[PapaC]

And I cant tell you how many times I have heard that I "hired PapaChris or Linus to build this site"

(but that might be because people think Im stupid, not a woman) ;)

I heard someone call my name.

whatever improvements there might have been in the last 20 years in Technology, is still not enough. IT is predominately dominated by men, and I'd personally be lying if I said that I wasn't aware of it on a cellular level when I stepped further into this career path (of sorts).

Even though, most of my bosses and clients and co-workers (like my ex gf) are women, and I've got some amazing work history with some pretty smart IT women (they're like blow your fuckin' minds smart), the image is still male, the brute force of numbers of geek still reads MALE, the only real advance I'm seeing is Marketing (how ironic). The marketing people have figured out that women have similar levels of interest in goods and services related to IT.

But sorry, do I believe that sexism is improving in IT?

Would you like to know how fuckin happy I'll be if I ever work on internet phone support again, that I *won't* be asked on a date or offered flowers or ask if I'm married or have a boyfriend?

:glare:

Thanks Selly, really,.... pointing me to this thread didn't give me happy joy joy feelings

(but you knew that didn't you).

[Bob]

For a really fascinating read, try "Making Programming Masculine" - http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~nathanen/files/cbi-gender.pdf . Sort of a history of how IT started out female-dominated in the 1940s and became ever more a boysport over time.

[Arwen]

I guess I am rather odd when it comes to sexism, I personally do not see anything wrong with the ads for things, sex sells for alot of products and it works, people gobble up certain products simply because of what the ad has displayed.

But what about the male underwear models? Isn't that sexism too?



You do not see anything wrong with a woman in her underwear on a bed with a PSP game controller plugged into her belly telling the viewer to "dream of a better world"?

Can you not see the objectification of women in that? That women are simply sex toys to be plugged in and controlled? That a "better world" consists of controllable women who just want to be used?

It may also be sexist to show a man in his underwear but I challenge you to find one that will deliver the same message about being controlled and being an object as that particular one does.

[Selenay]

Would you like to know how fuckin happy I'll be if I ever work on internet phone support again, that I *won't* be asked on a date or offered flowers or ask if I'm married or have a boyfriend?

:glare:

Thanks Selly, really,.... pointing me to this thread didn't give me happy joy joy feelings

(but you knew that didn't you).


I would buy you flowers, but they'd be really manly ones, like...
I don't know.

http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/flowers/images/saguaro_cactus_blossom.jpg

These.


I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden. . . .

[PapaC]

Thanks Selly, but I happen to love tulips.
of all colours.

I was born in a land full of tulips

Signed,

-the manly one

[NotAnAverageGuy]

You do not see anything wrong with a woman in her underwear on a bed with a PSP game controller plugged into her belly telling the viewer to "dream of a better world"?

Can you not see the objectification of women in that? That women are simply sex toys to be plugged in and controlled? That a "better world" consists of controllable women who just want to be used?

It may also be sexist to show a man in his underwear but I challenge you to find one that will deliver the same message about being controlled and being an object as that particular one does.


I see alot of things as wrong in many ads that do include both genders. All I am saying is that sexism runs rampant with both genders. MY opinion only. Not to be taken as said word.

[Medusa]

The sexism that runs rampant in both genders is different.

Women are most often portrayed in *violently* sexist ads. Check out the ads that Selly posted: Particularly the ones where one woman is chained to a bed (think: sex slave) and the other ad where the woman appears to have been shot in the head.

Women are also portrayed often as disjointed body parts. Random asses, breasts, mouths, legs, etc. And dont get me started on how often women are portrayed as sexual automatons (think the plug-in woman). I have often made comments about feeling like a "Stepford Pussy" when people value the body part over the person. This is reinforced daily in advertising.

[NJFemmie]

It's nearly impossible to find comparable ads depicting men in the same manner in which they depict women. If they are out there, they are scarce.
(Unless of course I am googling the wrong search terms).

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I googled, binged and such and didn't come up with anything and if they are out there is VERY VERY scarce and it's being hidden.

[Bob]

Here's a good start: http://www.genderads.com/Vio._Ag._Males.html

[Medusa]

Here's a good start: http://www.genderads.com/Vio._Ag._Males.html

Interesting to note that a great number of the ads appear to be subjugating the power of men (i.e the stiletto in the back, the chains around the neck and being walked like dogs)

[NJFemmie]

Interesting to note that a great number of the ads appear to be subjugating the power of men (i.e the stiletto in the back, the chains around the neck and being walked like dogs)

Also interesting to note that you don't see these things as advertisements.

[Bob]

Also interesting to note that you don't see these things as advertisements.

Er, they're all ads.

[NJFemmie]

Er, they're all ads.

I've never seen them here. When I turn on my TV, or flip open a magazine - or drive past a billboard - I don't see ads like these. It's usually the other way around.

And ... when you consider the number of ads like these versus ads against women - again, it's far and few in between.

[Bob]

I've never seen them here. When I turn on my TV, or flip open a magazine - or drive past a billboard - I don't see ads like these. It's usually the other way around.

And ... when you consider the number of ads like these versus ads against women - again, it's far and few in between.

With all respect, whether YOU'VE seen them is merely anecdotal and, frankly, irrelevant to the question of whether violence against men is being depicted in advertising. It's rather the same argument that many people use to say sexism doesn't exist at all, simply because they've never seen it (somehow); I've heard women say they've never experienced it.

As for quantifying the number of ads that show women in misogynistic, violent poses versus that of men, your point is taken, of course. It doesn't excuse those that depict men in similar positions, nor does it make those ads less offensive and demeaning to all people.

[Linus]

Interesting to note that a great number of the ads appear to be subjugating the power of men (i.e the stiletto in the back, the chains around the neck and being walked like dogs)

So a question to all about these ads: do you consider these as a way of reclaiming some privilege or as something else?

[NJFemmie]

With all respect, whether YOU'VE seen them is merely anecdotal and, frankly, irrelevant to the question of whether violence against men is being depicted in advertising. It's rather the same argument that many people use to say sexism doesn't exist at all, simply because they've never seen it (somehow); I've heard women say they've never experienced it.

As for quantifying the number of ads that show women in misogynistic, violent poses versus that of men, your point is taken, of course. It doesn't excuse those that depict men in similar positions, nor does it make those ads less offensive and demeaning to all people.

My point was that it is not as "mainstream" as violence against women. Of course I KNOW that violence against men exists - but it is not as "acceptable" or as "common" as that of the depiction of women. When I turn on my TV, I don't see some guys junk hanging out in a car ad - I'll see boobs. Lots of boobs. Boobs and ass. Boobs, ass and ... well you get the drift.

[MsDemeanor]

So a question to all about these ads: do you consider these as a way of reclaiming some privilege or as something else?
I see some of them as playing to mens' sexual fantasies. The ads in the link that had both men and women tended toward mild/vanilla-ish BDSM. The overall levels of violence were quite mild compared to what one finds in the female ads from the same site.

linkyloo (http://www.ltcconline.net/lukas/gender/pages/violence.htm)

Ads that feature blood and bodies (or body parts) aren't appropriate, not matter the sex of the model; those sorts of ads are far more common and mainstream, though, when the victim is female.

[Waldo]

YAY! I was hoping you would chime in!

I was wondering, Kellie, do you ever talk to someone on the phone with your job and when they meet you in person, they have a noticeable reaction to the fact that you arent in a skirt and heels?

It used to happen all the time. But now that I'm a higher profile person word has gotten out that I'm a dyke. And I'm visible on the web as well so people tend to Google me and aren't as obvious.

When I was working the phones years ago I used to get all sorts of BS. Before that I worked in video retail and regularly got hassled by guys who loved my voice and would call to ask about adult films, etc. Even had guys sending me flowers and other "gifts" completely unsolicited. Sigh.

My favorite personal experience was several years ago when I was working transfer support for a hosting company in New Mexico (by the way - working for a man I now employ!) and I was on a call with a "gentleman" who said "Honey, you don't know what you're talking about. Let me talk to a guy. Any guy." and I turned him over to my boss who politely listened and then said "Sir, let me have you speak to Kellie again - she's the expert in this area and can help you out." And I never had a problem with that customer again.

NotAnAverageGuy - I think you might be confusing using sex to sell with sexism. Yes, both men and women are used to sell products. The difference comes in when you look at the context.

It makes sense to see a man or a woman in underwear when that's what you're selling. If you're selling a domain name or web hosting please explain to me why tits and ass come into play?

[MsDemeanor]

Why is that so often when we talk about things like violence against women, someone says "you know, it happens to men once in a while too", and we find ourselves on the defensive? It's not prevalent, it's not widely accepted by society, and it's not a valid argument. I say enough of that bullshit!

[Waldo]

Why is that so often when we talk about things like violence against women, someone says "you know, it happens to men once in a while too", and we find ourselves on the defensive? It's not prevalent, it's not widely accepted by society, and it's not a valid argument. I say enough of that bullshit!

The answer is simple, really. It's not pleasant but it's simple.

[Arwen]

Okay, so I looked at those ads. Some of them are violent. Others are just more objectification of women. The border patrol one is horrific. That's not violence against men. That's the sexy female cop with her bra showing and her panties "just there". http://www.genderads.com/Vio._Ag._Males.html#24 is another one that is a man hitting his shadow or a woman's shadow. How is that violence against a man?

The fact remains that those in power really can not be lessened or controlled by those images.

Women are used as bait in advertising. A good marketing campaign can create a sexual response in a non-sexual item such as a car or a powertool. Throw a bikini-clad babe at it and you have an attention-getter.

Honestly, if I were male, I'd be insulted that my libido was thought to be the only thing that drives me.

Kellie, I had many of those calls where they thought I was the RECEPTIONIST! Grrrrr. Made me want to break their computer rather than fix it.:4femme:

[Waldo]

This morning I was reminded about the woman who hired me into the company I now run. Anyone ever experience this?

Woman hires me and when I actually do great she moves from supportive and encouraging to hostile and undermining - eventually to the point of screaming at me and blaming me for her poor decisions in front of not just staff, but also customers.

Why is it that some women see other driven and successful women as such threats?

[RNguy]

This morning I was reminded about the woman who hired me into the company I now run. Anyone ever experience this?

Woman hires me and when I actually do great she moves from supportive and encouraging to hostile and undermining - eventually to the point of screaming at me and blaming me for her poor decisions in front of not just staff, but also customers.

Why is it that some women see other driven and successful women as such threats?

Wow, friend, I'm so sorry to hear that occurred. To pull someone in private and have a professional conversation is one thing, but to do so in front of coworkers, and customers even is just absolutely over the top wrong and the lowest you can take things.
That makes her look like a complete fool! If I were a customer and witnessed something such as that, I would feel so bad, and let her know I would not take my business there at all.
I feel so sad and sorry you had to go through that.
Do you ever feel that the good employees get all the crap, and the employees who are lazy and call off all the time get rewarded?
I just don't get how and why things occur at all. Makes no sence to me.
Sorry to hear that again, keep your head up my friend.

-RNguy

[Medusa]

An interesting article:

http://www.medialit.org/reading_room/article448.html

[Daryn]

I've worked in IT for a very long time and my job titles and duties have changed over the years. In the 70s, overt sexism was rampant. Vendor support personnel would address me as honey, little lady, sweetheart, missy, darling, etc. and doubt my technical aptitude at every turn. I worked for IBM for awhile and my basic training included being taught to accept full on harrassment. It was expected. Times have changed on that front. And I think women are more accepted in the industry. However, mostly I still don't see them in the senior most positions.

As for Medusa's initial comment about communications, I'd say that if a woman has a very direct communication style that is seen as masculine and usually not acceptable. Years ago, I had worked about a 12 hour day on a stressful project (it was day 3 of this) and I was handling 2 really critical issues. A woman came with a minor issue and I told her she'd have to wait until the other problems were solved. She complained to my (female) boss and I got disciplined. My immediate response was to ask if one of my male co-workers (used his name) would be getting talked to if he'd done the same thing (and he would have) and I was told I was not him. I have issues about being too direct in communications than almost anything else.

[WILDCAT]

Glad you posted here again, about this concern Medusa.

Sorry, you got batted down a bit with "but, men are victimss too" when you first reached out here on this topc, on YOUR SITE... (Which reminded me of some of us friends in town talking one night about a female friend of our getting banged up by her boyfriend - and one person said, "well, women are batterers too"!)

Yuck. Missed the point. Big time.

I encourage you to get all of the support you possibly can. TO ME, what you have started up here IS AKIN to building the friggin' Starship Enterprise from your kitchen table!

Now me, being the good technophobe that I am, would handle it this way:

:overreaction:

So, I bow down to you (looked for that emoticon and could NOT find it)!?
__

Anyway, also wanted to mention that when I wondered into chat the other night, with that NEW FORMAT from the original - and you guys gave out a holler, and I was so excited I knew someone... and they knew me, AND I couldn't figure OUT WHERE THE HELL to answer and... then "changed the channel?"" or some damn thing... (?!) and never could find you again.

Thus, I did not blow anyone's "hello's" off! Really.

Now, I see there are MANY places to go for everyone there. But, why did I start out on that - where YOU guys happened to be, and "where was it, anyway?", (if you even remember)... and I'm wondering since the site had to be rebooted after that, will I be back "on track" when I try again to go back on chat? (i.e. What determines where you open up to, when you first go on there - like where you last were perhaps?) Because I last was LOST! That night, I kept re-opening the chat and was still on that changed channel - alone (lol) wherever that was. I tried to do this private message to Jack then there (on chat?) to help out, but didn't get a response. I don't know if he got it or not... (?)

Making no bones about my stupidity here. :weightlifter:
__

And finally, this post of yours, the link - reminded me of high school, wondering why I HAD to take HOME EC. class! Blech!! But, by my senior year I signed on for wood shop, the first female to do so. That felt MUCH more to my comfort zone. I know, this is a little bit of a derail (actually two of them), but there is a point in here somewhere to this thread topic - honest.

SMILE,
WILDCAT

[Medusa]

One of the things that happened at my job recently (again, in a high-tech marketing firm):

Someone actually suggested color-coding datapackets (not paper ones, ELECTRONIC ones), as in changing the font color, to PINK for any company that was "female related".

[Linus]

One of the things that happened at my job recently (again, in a high-tech marketing firm):

Someone actually suggested color-coding datapackets (not paper ones, ELECTRONIC ones), as in changing the font color, to PINK for any company that was "female related".

Seriously.. my response is.. :|

[Gentle Tiger]

One of the things that happened at my job recently (again, in a high-tech marketing firm):

Someone actually suggested color-coding datapackets (not paper ones, ELECTRONIC ones), as in changing the font color, to PINK for any company that was "female related".

Ok, FOR REAL?? REALLY?? Seriously, REALLY??

Now to the thread itselgf - once again, this is why I appreciate you Medusa because you force me to exercise the matter that is allegedly under my skull! I have had odd experiences in the tech world moving from black female to black male on the QA/QC side of the technology fence.

The first category falls under performing as female and operating at that same level as male as a tester (not lead or manager).

As a Female - It seemed that the level of expectation and even demand was higher as female - more like of course you achieve. That's to be expected. However, you still need to work twice as hard to be considered equal.

As male - it seemed more like people were amazed that I came to work on time. The level of expectation as male was lowered. So in some instances it was easier to shine and in other instances it was impossible to even get a shot at taking on a more challenging project because it was assumed I could not operate at that level. Not sure if what I'm saying makes sense.

The other category falls under experiences during interviews for a QA Manager position as black female vs. black male.

I have to put color in there because I go back to the level of expectation. The interviews were easier as female. Easy not in difficulty of question but being able to discuss background, opinion. The employer's questions were about determining if I would fit into their department/organization. It was more about getting to know me. The flow was there. I felt I truly was being questioned as a potential candidate. However, after transitioning the questions were from one of suspicion; like they didn't believe I could really have the credentials and experience I have. So the questions have at times been more of trying to catch me in a lie. I actually had a person look at a sample of the work I provided (test plan and automation scripts because I always bring them to an interview) and ask if I actually wrote the documents myself. What?! that was my reaction internally.

I've tried to explain the above to others but haven't communicated clear enough.

Where I can say I have seen clear sexism is in pay. Unfortunately I have experienced better pay as a man than I did doing the same job as a woman. That bothers me too!

Thanks again for the thread.
Gentle Tiger

[Medusa]

Ok, FOR REAL?? REALLY?? Seriously, REALLY??

Now to the thread itselgf - once again, this is why I appreciate you Medusa because you force me to exercise the matter that is allegedly under my skull! I have had odd experiences in the tech world moving from black female to black male on the QA/QC side of the technology fence.

The first category falls under performing as female and operating at that same level as male as a tester (not lead or manager).

As a Female - It seemed that the level of expectation and even demand was higher as female - more like of course you achieve. That's to be expected. However, you still need to work twice as hard to be considered equal.

As male - it seemed more like people were amazed that I came to work on time. The level of expectation as male was lowered. So in some instances it was easier to shine and in other instances it was impossible to even get a shot at taking on a more challenging project because it was assumed I could not operate at that level. Not sure if what I'm saying makes sense.

The other category falls under experiences during interviews for a QA Manager position as black female vs. black male.

I have to put color in there because I go back to the level of expectation. The interviews were easier as female. Easy not in difficulty of question but being able to discuss background, opinion. The employer's questions were about determining if I would fit into their department/organization. It was more about getting to know me. The flow was there. I felt I truly was being questioned as a potential candidate. However, after transitioning the questions were from one of suspicion; like they didn't believe I could really have the credentials and experience I have. So the questions have at times been more of trying to catch me in a lie. I actually had a person look at a sample of the work I provided (test plan and automation scripts because I always bring them to an interview) and ask if I actually wrote the documents myself. What?! that was my reaction internally.

I've tried to explain the above to others but haven't communicated clear enough.

Where I can say I have seen clear sexism is in pay. Unfortunately I have experienced better pay as a man than I did doing the same job as a woman. That bothers me too!

Thanks again for the thread.
Gentle Tiger

Thanks for giving such a great example, Tiger! (and so so SO happy to see you around!)

This is, indeed, an interesting perspective. I had never thought about how the interview process might be different for males v. females except for wondering if males get asked about their "communication style" (which I always read as "are you a good bitch or a bad bitch?")

Do you think that when being interviewed as a male and they question your work as your own that it might be because plagiarism or "resume padding" happens more with males or is it maybe that whole "women are more honest" thing? Did you ever get a vibe for that?

Great thoughts here for sure, Im pondering more now!

[Gentle Tiger]

More to think about:deepthoughts:
I'll be back. And it's good to be here.

Thanks for giving such a great example, Tiger! (and so so SO happy to see you around!)

This is, indeed, an interesting perspective. I had never thought about how the interview process might be different for males v. females except for wondering if males get asked about their "communication style" (which I always read as "are you a good bitch or a bad bitch?")

Do you think that when being interviewed as a male and they question your work as your own that it might be because plagiarism or "resume padding" happens more with males or is it maybe that whole "women are more honest" thing? Did you ever get a vibe for that?

Great thoughts here for sure, Im pondering more now!

[Medusa]

Pardon me while I grumble about encountering too many tech teams that want to give the women on the team the "design" work and leave the actual building of the infrastructure to the men.