Tristan Taormino - loves butch girls

[Kobi]

I saw this quote in another thread. When it started with I love butch girls, I was cautiously optimistic of its contents. By the time I finished I was both amused and annoyed.


"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

-Tristan Taormino


This is why it was annoying to me. I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same or similar thoughts.

1. The word "girl" to me indicates a prepubescent female. To me, post puberty, "girls" become women. To refer to grown people as "girls" to me seems disrespectful and almost infantilizing. It might just be a pet peeve of mine.

2. While Tristan is entitled to her version of what a "butch girl" is. I would have preferred if she worded it as her opinion or preference or what gets her blood hot rather than using sweeping generalizations and stereotypical examples lumped into "butch girls". "Butch" is a very large category of very diverse people, appearances, presentations, genders, etc.

3. This made me chuckle - "Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives". We have Tristan. Regardless of how we now identify, we are female either by birth or by choice. We have your body. We have explored your body. We know your body. We know how to play your body much like a musician plays an instrument. We know how to make many different kinds of music with that body to bring you the different pleasure you might desire. Why does her quote make it seem like some miracle or strange twist of fate?

4. This confused me - "the girls who are a different gender". I admit, I still have trouble with the sex/gender thing. But is this even logical? Can you be a girl of a different gender? Arent you a "girl/female" or gendered in a way more representative of who you are using whatever term you choose to use?

So, your thoughts?

[Tawse]

For me the term 'girl' is yicky for butches or other masculine minded persons.. Could just be that the more masculine minded friends of mine all cringe when "girl" is used to refer to them.

As for the generalization - if we sterilize and PC everything - then it loses it's flow IMO. I don't take her to be defining me, I take her to be defining what she encompasses as butch. I get her point. If it doesn't apply to me, I move along. I don't expect the world to use PC lingo all the time. This may make me the rebel, and I'm ok with that. I don't want all of my literature to read like a legal document.

[Soon]

For me the term 'girl' is yicky for butches or other masculine minded persons.. Could just be that the more masculine minded friends of mine all cringe when "girl" is used to refer to them.

As for the generalization - if we sterilize and PC everything - then it loses it's flow IMO. I don't take her to be defining me, I take her to be defining what she encompasses as butch. I get her point. If it doesn't apply to me, I move along. I don't expect the world to use PC lingo all the time. This may make me the rebel, and I'm ok with that. I don't want all of my literature to read like a legal document.

I just need to pipe in and say that the word *girl* can be considered belittling/demeaning to those of us non-butches as well as it is often misapplied to adult women in general. When referring to adult males, the corresponding term of *boy* is rarely applied.

That being said, I don't believe the author of the quote is doing that here (being intentionally demeaning).

I just wanted to point out that the term *girl* is overused in general and can grate on all identities.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I loved her wording, for me it described how it feels to have the visual, sexual, physical effect I have and have had towards a girl who's opposite of me. Also I can identify with the gender since my gender is not what was imposed at birth. When I read the word girl in her quote above I can close my eyes and visualize my first girl kiss to the first time I was touched by a girl who wore clothes only the boys wore. I have more but typing on this iPhone is a pain in the booty!

[dark_crystal]

I saw this quote in another thread. When it started with I love butch girls, I was cautiously optimistic of its contents. By the time I finished I was both amused and annoyed.


"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

-Tristan Taormino


This is why it was annoying to me. I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same or similar thoughts.

1. The word "girl" to me indicates a prepubescent female. To me, post puberty, "girls" become women. To refer to grown people as "girls" to me seems disrespectful and almost infantilizing. It might just be a pet peeve of mine.

2. While Tristan is entitled to her version of what a "butch girl" is. I would have preferred if she worded it as her opinion or preference or what gets her blood hot rather than using sweeping generalizations and stereotypical examples lumped into "butch girls". "Butch" is a very large category of very diverse people, appearances, presentations, genders, etc.

3. This made me chuckle - "Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives". We have Tristan. Regardless of how we now identify, we are female either by birth or by choice. We have your body. We have explored your body. We know your body. We know how to play your body much like a musician plays an instrument. We know how to make many different kinds of music with that body to bring you the different pleasure you might desire. Why does her quote make it seem like some miracle or strange twist of fate?

4. This confused me - "the girls who are a different gender". I admit, I still have trouble with the sex/gender thing. But is this even logical? Can you be a girl of a different gender? Arent you a "girl/female" or gendered in a way more representative of who you are using whatever term you choose to use?

So, your thoughts?



The term "girl" has a lot of different shades of meaning depending on the context of the speaker. I would like to know how old the speaker is and where she is in the country

I am totally a girl. Mr. Jenny can also be heard to refer to herself as a girl. I am femme, she is butch, we are both over 40, we are in Southest Texas.

If she would have have started out with "The girls I love are the kind I call 'butch girls'" instead of "i love butch girls" i think every objection Kobi has here would be nullified. The only problem is that she is not all the way in her "me" space

i do kind of love the "live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to" line

[Tawse]

I just need to pipe in and say that the word *girl* can be considered belittling/demeaning to those of us non-butches as well as it is often misapplied to adult women in general.

That being said, I don't believe the author of the quote is doing that here. I just wanted to point out that the term *girl* is overused in general (and can grate on all identities) whereas when referring to adult males, the corresponding term of *boy* is rarely applied.


completely agree! however among my friendship group, I see a large portion of "as long as it's me or mine calling me a girl I'm ok with it".

So either way... I act according to whatever the person wants to be called.

[Soon]

completely agree! however among my friendship group, I see a large portion of "as long as it's me or mine calling me a girl I'm ok with it".

So either way... I act according to whatever the person wants to be called.

I'm not referring to any of us who use the term *girl* in an affectionate or personal way b/w lovers and/or friends. Of course, whatever terms float your boat b/w you and your SO or peer group is cool. I am talking about the overuse and misapplication of the term *girl* by society at large when referring to women.

[Kobi]

The term "girl" has a lot of different shades of meaning depending on the context of the speaker. I would like to know how old the speaker is and where she is in the country

I am totally a girl. Mr. Jenny can also be heard to refer to herself as a girl. I am femme, she is butch, we are both over 40, we are in Southest Texas.

If she would have have started out with "The girls I love are the kind I call 'butch girls'" instead of "i love butch girls" i think every objection Kobi has here would be nullified. The only problem is that she is not all the way in her "me" space

i do kind of love the "live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to" line


Tristan Taormino (born May 9, 1971) is a feminist author, columnist, sex educator, activist, editor, speaker, and pornographic film director (she also appeared in three films, two of which she directed, 1999–2000).

She teaches sex and relationship workshops around the world and lectures at top colleges and universities including Princeton, Yale, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, University of Toronto, Wesleyan, Vassar, University of Oregon, Swarthmore, and New York University, where she speaks on gay and lesbian issues, sexuality and gender, and feminism.

Taormino stated in an online interview, "I identify strongly as queer and as a dyke, because, as I have said before, it's not just about who I fuck and love, being queer is also about my politics, my culture, my community, and the way I see the world. People want to call me bisexual or pansexual or whatever, but I believe in people's power to self-identity."

In addition, "she describes herself as 'equal opportunity.' She doesn't like the word 'bisexual' -- it's too polarizing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Taormino


Just a brief synopsis of who this is.

[Hollylane]

I just need to pipe in and say that the word *girl* can be considered belittling/demeaning to those of us non-butches as well as it is often misapplied to adult women in general. When referring to adult males, the corresponding term of *boy* is rarely applied.

That being said, I don't believe the author of the quote is doing that here (being intentionally demeaning).

I just wanted to point out that the term *girl* is overused in general and can grate on all identities.

I'm not referring to any of us who use the term *girl* in an affectionate or personal way b/w lovers and/or friends. Of course, whatever terms float your boat b/w you and your SO or peer group is cool. I am talking about the overuse and misapplication of the term *girl* by society at large when referring to women.

I completely agree HowSoonIsNow. I love that my Butch calls me her girl, or babygirl. When she says it, it doesn't feel like it is a way to refer to me as less than her, or childlike. It is said with love, and it makes me feel good.

But, I bristle when I hear it used in the manner that you describe. Society has a way of continuing to demean women by using words in a way that makes them sound lesser than men. Being the blunt person that I am, frequently puts me in the position of politely correcting people when they use "girl" in the demeaning way, and patiently explaining why it is not appropriate. I think most people are not even aware that they are doing it, because it is still so engrained in our culture when referring to women.

That's why the universe created people like us, who continue to coax others to evolve(whether they want to or not). ;)

[skeeter_01]

Thanks so much Kobi!! I was just about to ask, who the heck is Tristan Taormino?? LoL!! You saved me the embarrassment of being told (and rightly so!) to go Google her!

[stonewalldog]

I took the "girl" word as playful myself. The hair part reminds me to go get a trim. It's getting a bit shaggy. Otherwise, I thought it was great!

[dark_crystal]

Tristan Taormino (born May 9, 1971) is a feminist author, columnist, sex educator, activist, editor, speaker, and pornographic film director (she also appeared in three films, two of which she directed, 1999–2000).

She teaches sex and relationship workshops around the world and lectures at top colleges and universities including Princeton, Yale, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, University of Toronto, Wesleyan, Vassar, University of Oregon, Swarthmore, and New York University, where she speaks on gay and lesbian issues, sexuality and gender, and feminism.

Taormino stated in an online interview, "I identify strongly as queer and as a dyke, because, as I have said before, it's not just about who I fuck and love, being queer is also about my politics, my culture, my community, and the way I see the world. People want to call me bisexual or pansexual or whatever, but I believe in people's power to self-identity."

In addition, "she describes herself as 'equal opportunity.' She doesn't like the word 'bisexual' -- it's too polarizing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Taormino


Just a brief synopsis of who this is.


LOL

I googled her, but I am at work, so....


https://p.twimg.com/Axiku3YCAAAGYFa.jpg

[Kobi]

Thanks so much Kobi!! I was just about to ask, who the heck is Tristan Taormino?? LoL!! You saved me the embarrassment of being told (and rightly so!) to go Google her!


I should have done a little more research myself LOL.

This quote is from an article she wrote for the Village Voice back in 1999 entitled: Of Butches, Kings, and Masculinity.

The exact quote is the first paragraph of the article and was cleaned up a bit.

" I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger. Girls who have dicks made of flesh and silicone and latex and magic. Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives. Girls who have big cocks, love blowjobs, and like to fuck girls hard. It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

Reading the paragraph within the context helps a lot. LOL. I can be such a freakin doofus.

The entire article is here: http://www.villagevoice.com/1999-10-05/columns/of-butches-kings-and-masculinity/

[~ocean]

the part that got my attention is u know how to play a womans body like an isntrument >>> hmm << wants to be a drum .. bang me baby ~ lol ?? j/k .. maybe not..

[Tawse]

Might I say... Tristan writes some very hot stuff... very... she's one of the top three on my list (along with Patrick Califia and Laura Antoniou)

[thedivahrrrself]

From a language perspective, I can see why she chose the word "girl". I don't think she would ever call a butch person a "girl", but in her writing, she chose the word that most contrasted with butch. Butch: tough, masculine, hard. Girl: sweet, feminine, soft. I think it was an creative artistic choice. I like the quote, though I can understand why you might object to it. I, however, think it's beautifully written. (And I don't think of butches as "girls". But I doubt the author does either.)

[The_Lady_Snow]

I interpreted it as art via words, it resonates with each word you can literally feel it with her words and it can also conjure up feelings for those of us who have had the same exact feelings.

This: " Girls who have big cocks, love blowjobs, and like to fuck girls hard"

As a young dyke I remember those moments of excitement, fear, pulsing areas, the tightness that came with having an epiphany that that cock slinging girl was going to open up a world of unexhibited sexual escapades, it's like a tall glass of ice cold water on as hot as hell day, it's only satisfies your thirst for a second before the temperature rises again.

That's why it's art in my opinion because it's a different experience for every individual.

[Novelafemme]

I interpreted it as art via words, it resonates with each word you can literally feel it with her words and it can also conjure up feelings for those of us who have had the same exact feelings.

This: " Girls who have big cocks, love blowjobs, and like to fuck girls hard"

As a young dyke I remember those moments of excitement, fear, pulsing areas, the tightness that came with having an epiphany that that cock slinging girl was going to open up a world of unexhibited sexual escapades, it's like a tall glass of ice cold water on as hot as hell day, it's only satisfies your thirst for a second before the temperature rises again.
That's why it's art in my opinion because it's a different experience for every individual.

:fan: is it hot in here or what!! :sunglass:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm more offended when I see folks online/real time so easily use bitch when referring to Femmes/Women/Feminity then again I'm all about Girl Power!!!

Spice Girls anyone?

[JAGG]

I loved it. I thought it was awesome. That some female, femme,lady,woman, whatever you prefer,embraces who I am and isn't embarrassed by my appearance. Isn't trying to soften, my look but saying ,people wouldn't call you sir so often if you would grow your hair out, or maybe if you would wear some womens clothes or even unisex clothes once in awhile. Maybe if you would get your ears pierced. She is saying, she wants that, that's what attracts her, she doesn't just accept it, deal with or tolerate it, she loves it!
Wish I could have known women like that exsisted when I was a teenager.
But then again I'm not one to read into things and pick apart word for word. Something someone wrote, I just take the face value of it, I know what she meant. She may not have used the proper wording, she assumed butch was a cut and dry stereotype . But I know she meant, that is the type she likes.
Since we are on the subject, I will stick my neck on the chopping board here. I was born butch. I have been butch all my life. And even I don't know half the terms or words or titles some people in the community think others should be using. Or terms that others find offensive. I guess it's all relative to the individual.
I'm pretty sure the person who wrote this wasn't trying to offend anyone, just the opposite, she was trying to say this is what I love. And probably if she thought she was offending someone would have worded it to their liking. Butch girl doesn't bother me at all. But that's just me, my opinion.

[thedivahrrrself]

I'm more offended when I see folks online/real time so easily use bitch when referring to Femmes/Women/Feminity then again I'm all about Girl Power!!!

Spice Girls anyone?

I like the word bitch. But I don't associate anything particularly negative with it. If you call me a bitch, obviously I intimidate you. That makes me smile. I got quite used to it when one of my best friends and I started calling each other Bitch in college.

"Hey, Bitch, how you doin'?"
"Bitch, you gotta see this!"

I guess you could say we were "taking it back".

She fit the word. She still does. She is competitive as hell, assertive, intimidating, aggressive, and unapologetic. I like those qualities. Long live the Great American Bitch!

[Kobi]

She fit the word. She still does. She is competitive as hell, assertive, intimidating, aggressive, and unapologetic. I like those qualities. Long live the Great American Bitch!



I like women who are competitive, assertive, intimidating, aggressive and unapologetic. Would never occur to me to call or see them as a bitch. I could see referring to them as my idol tho. :)

[The_Lady_Snow]

I meant more as in the ugly animalistic way bitch is used when referring to women.

Bitch in cultural circles as no big deal until it's flung in a derogatory or spit out by a male bodied person attempting to super impose their bullshit on women.

[thedivahrrrself]

I meant more as in the ugly animalistic way bitch is used when referring to women.

Bitch in cultural circles as no big deal until it's flung in a derogatory or spit out by a male bodied person attempting to super impose their bullshit on women.

I agree. Like I tell my straight friends, "I can say dyke, you can say lesbian. But nobody, anywhere outside the scientific community, can say homosexual. That shit is offensive."

[Soon]

I like the word bitch. But I don't associate anything particularly negative with it. If you call me a bitch, obviously I intimidate you. That makes me smile. I got quite used to it when one of my best friends and I started calling each other Bitch in college.

"Hey, Bitch, how you doin'?"
"Bitch, you gotta see this!"

I guess you could say we were "taking it back".

She fit the word. She still does. She is competitive as hell, assertive, intimidating, aggressive, and unapologetic. I like those qualities. Long live the Great American Bitch!

Those same qualities are revered in a man (esp. in the workplace) and, yet, those women who display such traits are negatively perceived, by some, as a bitch--a way of cutting her down to size, discouraging such traits in other women, and denigrating her achievements.


These qualities are only synonymous with the gendered word bitch when it is a woman who possesses them.

As far as reclamation of words amongst friends, I have no issues there, but it isn't for me.

As a high school teacher, I know how easy it is for some students to label some female teachers as a bitch where they give major kudos to the men who act/teach in a similar manner. Frustrating.

[starryeyes]

I thought it was hot!! <3

[CherylNYC]

I should have done a little more research myself LOL.

This quote is from an article she wrote for the Village Voice back in 1999 entitled: Of Butches, Kings, and Masculinity.

The exact quote is the first paragraph of the article and was cleaned up a bit.

" I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger. Girls who have dicks made of flesh and silicone and latex and magic. Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives. Girls who have big cocks, love blowjobs, and like to fuck girls hard. It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

Reading the paragraph within the context helps a lot. LOL. I can be such a freakin doofus.

The entire article is here: http://www.villagevoice.com/1999-10-05/columns/of-butches-kings-and-masculinity/





Thank you for finding the complete quote, Kobi. I remember reading that in the Voice when Tristan wrote it. That was nearly 15 years ago, and we were all much younger! This piece was incredibly subversive at the time.

Back then I was more sensitive to any man, gay or straight, who called me or any other woman 'girl'. I corrected them relentlessly because... well I really don't have to bother explaining it. Everyone knows why it was so demeaning coming from a man. It was an especially dangerous word to use on me back in the 1980s when I was struggling so hard to be treated with respect while working as a carpenter/stagehand. Now I really don't care about 'girl' when it's applied to me unless it's thrown down in a way that's designed to infantilise me.

On the other hand, I certainly still get twitchy when anyone who isn't one of us refers to a butch as 'girl'. It seems as if that person isn't seeing the butch for who she is, and that gets me all wound up. It's interesting to re-read this quote now, because at the time I never even noticed the use of 'girl'. I think I must have been too distracted by the erotic content.

[Wolfsong]

I took the "girl" word as playful myself. The hair part reminds me to go get a trim. It's getting a bit shaggy. Otherwise, I thought it was great!

I always know when it's time to get a haircut.......people stop calling me sir. :|

Might I say... Tristan writes some very hot stuff... very... she's one of the top three on my list (along with Patrick Califia and Laura Antoniou)

I honestly took it as more poetic, creative writing than a statement in which the use of the word "girl" could be offensive. My mind thinks more in terms of the creative than the analytical....I would be far more in tune with something like....

"The heat of the day was oppressive and had driven her to her bedroom. Shrugging off her clothing, she slipped into a sheer pink camisole. “Well so what if it’s the middle of the day, she thought to herself as she went to pull closed the window shade, it’s too hot to wear or do anything else!” She heard hym before she saw hym. The old tractor rumbled as it bumped up the dirt road, throwing up clouds of dust as it went past. She peeked through the lace curtains hoping hy wouldn’t look up and catch her watching hym. Her breath caught as her eyes caressed hys body in the way that she wished that her hands could…… "

than I would had the verbiage been changed to add something about her pussy becoming sopping wet when she saw hym (which I find to be both uncomfortable and arrogant).


and your right....she does write some hot stuff.

[Dude]

I just need to pipe in and say that the word *girl* can be considered belittling/demeaning to those of us non-butches as well as it is often misapplied to adult women in general. When referring to adult males, the corresponding term of *boy* is rarely applied.

That being said, I don't believe the author of the quote is doing that here (being intentionally demeaning).

I just wanted to point out that the term *girl* is overused in general and can grate on all identities.

I got prickly when I tried to read what that woman wrote.
Something in me screeched to a halt and stopped reading.
So many things just do not fit for butches.
Lword? A show I tried to get excited about.
I saw the pictures of those women and said nope
thats not for you either lol and never watched.
Glamour butch , pretty butch, nope ,not hardly.
I'm fifty and need things to relate to and decided that
story was not for me
somewhere around the second sentence.

Several years back I tried "dating" a (girl) woman
who digs butches but she didn't understand or "get me".
(not a member on this site) She started an event thing
called girl on girl. Um no.
Not only am I so not a girl ,you will never hear me call
anyone that I'm involved with a "girl" or any form of it.
I am also not ok with the term boi or boy in terms of
describing me.
I hated being called a baby butch but way (WAY) back in the
day, I was one.

I prefer the company of women and hope that there are
femmes out there who still prefer the term woman
in describing themselves.
Words are important to me and some have deeper meanings
than others.

(To me) The word woman brings amazing thoughts and feelings,
that girl cant begin to come close to.
The scent of a woman :thud:
When I think woman I think captivating , well seasoned
and capable grown up.
I am very literal in my thinking and that's ok.
Is it an old school thang? Should I blame it on my mother?(f)
Should I change my mentality? nahhh, it's just me.
I respect the word woman in a way I just cant respect girl.
An adult, grown, mature,woman (who is also very much a lady)
sounds like a dream come true (to me.)
There are people who hate the term lady and what that
implies too. To me, it means charming with a bit of demure that
oozes a confident wisdom and subtle sexiness.
Light on the "public" raunch (at least what can be seen..snort)
but worlds away from prudey.
Dare I say classy woman because classy grates
on some people too. My grandmother grew up a migrant worker and
had class for days ( what I speak of , is so not about the money )

different strokes and all that

:coffee: slurpin my coffee with my pinkie out kind of butch :sunglass:

[Tawse]

and to me... girl and boi/y are used in an entirely different light... brings to mind eager submissives... (with nothing immature about them)


*le sigh

I think I will be rereading "the boy in the middle" now...

[dykeumentary]

"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

If I read that in a personal ad, I would ask her out on a date in a new york minute.

[*Anya*]

I should have done a little more research myself LOL.

This quote is from an article she wrote for the Village Voice back in 1999 entitled: Of Butches, Kings, and Masculinity.

The exact quote is the first paragraph of the article and was cleaned up a bit.

" I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger. Girls who have dicks made of flesh and silicone and latex and magic. Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives. Girls who have big cocks, love blowjobs, and like to fuck girls hard. It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

Reading the paragraph within the context helps a lot. LOL. I can be such a freakin doofus.

The entire article is here: http://www.villagevoice.com/1999-10-05/columns/of-butches-kings-and-masculinity/


I would like to offer another perspective on this!

Before I read it to my butch, I said: "Just substitute butch for 'girl' when you hear it".

When I first read it, that actually is what I did mentally, instead of focusing on the word "girl" but you could substitute whatever ID or gender or gender-free ID that you prefer.

I absolutely loved it because butches in general and my love in particular; thrill and turn me on and my sweetie’s hair is trimmed so short I can’t even grip it and love it dearly *sigh*. Everything else in this paragraph also describes her to a T:

Butches "with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Butches with shirts that button the other way. Butches that swagger. Butches who have dicks made of flesh and silicone and latex and magic. Butches who get stared at in the ladies' room, butches who shop in the boys department, and butches who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Butches with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives".


(My apologies to Tristan for changing the context of her original article, which was written in 1999. A lot has changed in our knowledge and understanding of gender since that time, too).

:moonstars:

[WickedFemme]

Thanks so much Kobi!! I was just about to ask, who the heck is Tristan Taormino?? LoL!! You saved me the embarrassment of being told (and rightly so!) to go Google her!

lol... I think she would just 'die' if someone didn't know 'who' she is cause of course she's all that. Anywho... I think she wrote that quote years and years ago before the whole gender identity revolution became so widely accepted within the lesbian or queer community.
She really doesn't know any more than any of us about gender identity, etc.. she just chooses to make it her job and her livelihood. I wouldn't look to her as the source of all knowledge. however, I'm sure the vanilla hetero world finds her quite remarkable, which is good cause she is paving the way towards societal acceptance of 'differences'.

[Dude]

"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

If I read that in a personal ad, I would ask her out on a date in a new york minute.

I might "try" dating her for a minute.
Nope, no I wouldnt lol.
I would get an insensitive vibe from her choice of words.
Even 40 years ago (for me) that word was a trigger for all that I am not.
In this tiny paragraph , she says it 11 times.
(To me) that cancels out the good words she chose like swagger and cock.
The disconnect between sir and girl is fucking enormous. helllooooo?

I would think that she does not know the ==>first thing about butches to begin with.

[Dude]

I'm sure the vanilla hetero world finds her quite remarkable, which is good cause she is paving the way towards societal acceptance of 'differences'.

ohhh
so she is talking about butches TO straight people?
it's almost as if the word is used for "shock value"
and this explains that it was , I guess

it still has nothing but sting value for me

but
but
but
werent butches the anti-girls from the beginning of time?
I think so

[WickedFemme]

ohhh
so she is talking about butches TO straight people?
it's almost as if the word is used for "shock value"
and this explains that it was , I guess

it still has nothing but sting value for me

but
but
but
werent butches the anti-girls from the beginning of time?
I think so

I'm not butch and it had 'sting' value for me too. so, I can only imagine how you must feel. At the time, I guess it was cutting edge for some... meh.

[Martina]

i know quite a few butches who visit their girl space as well as boy space. One has a deep glorious commanding voice.

We are who we are, but in my experience, there are a lot of butch girls out there, and thank god for them.

[BullDog]

I know of plenty of butches who refer to themselves as girl and it has nothing to do with them being submissive. I don't particularly like being called girl but it doesn't sting and I don't consider it an insult unless someone is clearly trying to insult. I also don't like being called lady. I can't stand when men refer to women as girls, but when other women do it it doesn't bother me. I also don't like straight people using the term dyke.

As for the quote, I wasn't offended. I think the author was talking about her own feelings using her own words. I think it was a very butch positive quote and she clearly admires and is attracted to butches.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't believe she was educating straight men she was more examining the draw they had towards her girlfriend.. I'll have reread it.

[BullDog]

I think she gets butches just fine ;)

"Straight men (my friends included) can and have been friendly to my lovers, but they're often uncomfortable when they're butches. Part of their discomfort is that butches are inherently threatening to most men. Men sense that a butch's masculinity is more appealing to me than theirs, and if she's packin' heat (wielding a dildo), which you know they imagine she is, well, there you have it. My girlfriend Red is a better man than most men.

At my cousin's wedding a few weeks back in upstate New York, Red and I were (surprise, surprise) the only lesbians. We were seated at a table with all my cousin's friends—married yuppies. The husbands were totally fascinated by Red. One in particular wanted to know where she got her hair cut, and he admired her flattop repeatedly, saying he wished his looked so good. This experience at the wedding has actually been happening a lot lately, and other butches I know report similar situations. I'm still mystified when straight men seem drawn to Red, but I have a few theories. In some cases, I think that men feel they can have a safe gay interaction with her; they can flirt and be playful (and even talk interior decorating) as if she were another guy because they know she's really a woman. Sometimes men actually identify with her as one of the guys, automatically admitting her into that fraternal order. But when they admire her suit, her wingtips, her hair, they seem to be learning from her what it's like to be a good man. She embodies a study of ideal masculinity, which is all in the details."

[Random]

So butch only comes in one flavor and if it's not the right flavor it has an ick factor?

That's how the last couple of posts felt to me...

Just because the term doesn't resound with you, doesn't make it less than or geared twards hetros...


This piece resounded with me...

I got what she was saying...

I like butch girls..(Ok, I like butch in just about any flavor, but have a weakness for a big ol butch who is a girl)

I happened to be partnered with one...

Nothing shocking, nothing cutting edge..

Just a big old hard working, hard fucking, gets called sir, taking up space butch who is also a girl...

[Dude]

she doesn't "get me" fine at all = different strokes ( Did I not say that?)
even at my youngest (around four)
that word was very off-putting and insulting (to me)
and I know for certain I am not alone in those thoughts.


diversity
don't we all get to be who we are?
cant we all say what is true (for ourselves) without someone
taking offence?

[dykeumentary]

I might "try" dating her for a minute.
Nope, no I wouldnt lol.
I would get an insensitive vibe from her choice of words.
Even 40 years ago (for me) that word was a trigger for all that I am not.
In this tiny paragraph , she says it 11 times.
(To me) that cancels out the good words she chose like swagger and cock.
The disconnect between sir and girl is fucking enormous. helllooooo?

I would think that she does not know the ==>first thing about butches to begin with.

Great, pal! Please don't waste the time of Femmes who appreciate complexity. That leaves them more available for feminist butches like me, who laugh at the sexist world we live in. I'm hot for Femmes who can negotiate that oppression without asking us butches to be reflect the binary back to them. I'm hot for Femmes who can call me any word that makes them feel sexy and want to get with me. I'm hot for Femmes who often suffered because of not being seen as "girly enough" because they were strong and independent. My "butchness" grew from my girlhood. I'm neither ashamed of it, nor diminished by culturally common references to it.

[BullDog]

Dude if you won't want to be called "girl" then fine, but she wasn't talking TO straight people and was partnered to a butch at the time and words like "ick" and "sting" are pretty loaded terms when there are plenty of butches who are fine with the term girl (some are submissives and some are not).

I think people need to read the entire article before leaping to conclusions about what the author does or doesn't know.

http://www.villagevoice.com/1999-10-05/columns/of-butches-kings-and-masculinity/2/

[WickedFemme]

It's my opinion, I own it whether or not you agree or disagree is your opinion and I respect differences. Yes, when she lectures at universities I assume that the majority of the audience are heterosexuals because statistics don't lie. I don't know her personally, but I have met her once briefly. She seems like an okay person. However, I don't think anyone is the authority on any subject regardless of who they think they are. We are all people experiencing our own lives and living our own biases because we are subjective. My partner is one who identifies as female butch and I'm very okay with that. I accept how everyone identifies - who am I to judge. However, I can see how her statements could be interpreted as misogynistic depending upon where you are standing on the spectrum of gender identity. My butch is my boy. I'm sure that Tristan's butch at that time was quite alright with the way she represented her at the time. I'm hoping and quite sure she wasn't speaking of all butches. and yes, I will not retract my statement that heteros probably find her quite intriguing. personally, she bores me and I don't read her stuff or pay for her lectures. She just isn't that interesting to me, but that's my perogative. I'm sure I did not spell that word correctly. hahaha!

[Just_G]

I am sure a lot of people see me as a butch "girl". I, personally, do not. I have never liked being called a girl or liked it when someone says "you go girl" or "girrrrrl, you should have seen....", but that is just me. I am not a boy (depending on who calls me that..:winky:) or a girl, a man or a woman. I am butch, I am A butch....I am what I consider the gray area....or the best of both worlds. :winky:

I don't like being referred to as someone's "girlfriend" in a relationship sense, but if that is how they want to term it, fine. To be really honest, I feel like I have to settle for whatever makes everyone else comfortable, and it is getting tiring....anywho.....

I get what Tristan was saying in the article, I really do. I just had to substitute the word "girl" with "butch", and then I was quite happy. :)

btw, this is all coming from my ME space, and I am by no means trying to say anyone else should feel this way or that the word "girl" is icky or gross...it's just not for me.

[dykeumentary]

I would think that she does not know the ==>first thing about butches to begin with.

I dont know whom you have dated, but are you sure you want to tell a Femme "what she knows about butches"?
Let's not be critical. Let's celebrate that someone took the time to say something (anything) about butches. If it doesn't exactly describe you, well....something else probably does.

[WickedFemme]

Dude if you won't want to be called "girl" then fine, but she wasn't talking TO straight people and was partnered to a butch at the time and words like "ick" and "sting" are pretty loaded terms when there are plenty of butches who are fine with the term girl (some are submissives and some are not).

I think people need to read the entire article before leaping to conclusions about what the author does or doesn't know.

http://www.villagevoice.com/1999-10-05/columns/of-butches-kings-and-masculinity/2/

Like I said, many years ago - 1999... lol...

[BullDog]

The piece doesn't feel all that outdated to me. *shrug*

[Dude]

Great, pal! Please don't waste the time of Femmes who appreciate complexity. That leaves them more available for feminist butches like me, who laugh at the sexist world we live in. I'm hot for Femmes who can negotiate that oppression without asking us butches to be reflect the binary back to them. I'm hot for Femmes who can call me any word that makes them feel sexy and want to get with me. I'm hot for Femmes who often suffered because of not being seen as "girly enough" because they were strong and independent. My "butchness" grew from my girlhood. I'm neither ashamed of it, nor diminished by culturally common references to it.

Please dont call me pal.
What have I written that leads you to believe I am an oppressor of women or non feminist butch?

signed
the un-complex? I think fucking not :]

[WickedFemme]

I don't know, but someone who id's as femme writing an article about butch masculinity doesn't seem very informative or insightful to me. However, attending a conference called 'butch voices' or something like that where butches speak to their identity and experiences is definitely more insightful coming form the 'first' person perspective. Nothing against Tristan or Red or whomever.. again, just my opinion. The article is dated, it's one person's experience with a butch and it's her perception of that person at the time. I thought it was boring the first time I read it. I'm more interested in hearing butches speak and share their own personal experiences with masculinity and gender fluidity. If I want to know or bond with femmes, I will go to a femme conference. It's my opinion that you have to be living it to be an authority or sell yourself as an authority. I thought the article was hot and belonged in lesbian erotica rather than an article about masculinity in the Voice. I'm just glad that as a community we have evolved since then.

[BullDog]

I didn't see her as trying to sell herself as an authority on masculinity in the article. I don't see the article as revolutionary but it's not boring to me either.

We definitely have a very different opinion on what progress has been made. No comment from me on butch conferences.

[aishah]

i'm grateful for all of the discussion here...it has all been really thought-provoking.

i love butches. i love reading other femmes' reflections on what they love about butches...as much as i love reading different butches write about what they love about femmes.

i'm personally hyperconscious of how i talk about butch identity, because it isn't my identity, and because, like femme identity, it is complex and multifaceted...and different people embody/experience/express it differently.

i know many people who would hate to be called "girl"...hell, i am not butch and there are only very specific instances where i am okay with being called "girl." outside of those instances it makes me feel insulted and infantilized. i know my partner would find it really triggering and upsetting for people to call him "girl."

at the same time...i respect that others feel differently. hell...that is one of the things i love most about butch identity...that y'all express it in so many different and amazing and hot ways.

[Dude]

let me try to put it another way

the term girl for many butches,tgs and transmen ( somewhat like me growing up)
(not that I am speaking for all of them or everyone please note all the disclaimers)
can and does lead to really fucked up and dysphoric feelings.
You dont as a kid feel "right", ever. You want to feel "right" but dont know how.

So you grow up and look masculine, get secure in yourself because your face is
screaming hi I'm a deisel dyke everyday 24/7. Some take it to the next
level of comfort to feel "right" aligned etc and transition. Some dont.

Its really all about comfort and the details. (To me)

[aishah]

dude, your description mirrors what i've heard from a lot of masculine id'ed folks in my life...that's why i'm really careful how i use gendered language.

i def agree june that feminine doesn't own beauty! at the same time many masculine id'ed folks in my life have balked when i told them they were beautiful because they are used to "beautiful" being a gendered word (to me it is not). i also change the language when i speak it sometimes because i don't want to trigger or offend people.

[bright_arrow]

I'm more offended when I see folks online/real time so easily use bitch when referring to Femmes/Women/Feminity then again I'm all about Girl Power!!!

Spice Girls anyone?

Tell me what you want, what you really really want!

< desd, who loves the spice girls

[Martina]

I have known butches who ID as butch but would do a double take if their girlfriend referred to them as "my butch" or frequently referred to them as butch at all. A lot of folks who are butch ID'd do not use the word a ton. I know of two who have complained when others have overused it referring to them. The others may have been trying to impose gender expectations on these people or were overly foregrounding gender.

Just adding that point.

[~ocean]

soo many opinions .. and all valid to ones own perspective. u can reslove it by

1. wearing a tshirt w. ur own logo and ur own ID
2. get ur own personal ID tattoo'd on ur forehead
3. or don't get mad at ppl who ID diff than u would << now theres a thought ~
4. u can fight the world and stress urself out <<not good causes wrinkles ~
5. just let it be known . that u r .. OH ~~ that nice person we just met ~~

~ocean

[SugarFemme]

I remember at age fifteen being offended at being called, "girl" after finding out the definition was, "A young, immature female". I certainly did not feel that described me at all as I was a very mature, responsible and politically astute young woman. Now that I am fifty, it REALLY annoys me when I go to a restaurant with my nineteen year old daughter and the twenty year old server asks, "What can I get you girls to eat??" Really??? Oh and fuggedaboutit if she calls me, "Honey" LOL.





she doesn't "get me" fine at all = different strokes ( Did I not say that?)
even at my youngest (around four)
that word was very off-putting and insulting (to me)
and I know for certain I am not alone in those thoughts.


diversity
don't we all get to be who we are?
cant we all say what is true (for ourselves) without someone
taking offence?

[Wolfsong]

On another thread I said;

“To the jackass that spent 15 minutes staring at me yesterday, your thoughts were loud and clear; "Is that a guy or a girl?" I have an answer for you......

Fuck off”

In greater Chicagoland, my gender identity to the general outside world seems to be directly linked to the length of my hair regardless of my choice of clothing. I wasn’t really kidding about that. I just spent a week in South Carolina. There was no deviation; I was addressed as Ma’am 100% of the time. There is it a sign of respect and I accept it as such.

My own fur bristled more at the word “Pal” (Sorry, I know you didn’t mean to offend in using it) than it did at “girl” but then again I don’t like being called dude, bro, or buddy either by people who don’t know me.

At work my team is well aware of who we (my partner and I) are. I am also referred to on occasion as “girl” “hoe” and “bitch” as local colloquialism. I find no offense in it as it is intended to include me in the group rather than belittle or offend. They are all straight and often ask the most interesting (?) questions. It’s ok by me as I know they feel safe enough to ask me “stupid” questions without fear of being dressed down for doing so.

For me, girl is just another word among many. We can choose to claim it as we claim dyke, pussy, c@#t (sorry guys, that word is the ultimo ick factor for me) or bitch. Or reject it as we do others along the way. I'd be interested in knowing why some "claim" a word and reverse its power while other words do not seem to make that list.

[QueenofSmirks]

I saw this quote in another thread. When it started with I love butch girls, I was cautiously optimistic of its contents. By the time I finished I was both amused and annoyed.


"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

-Tristan Taormino


This is why it was annoying to me. I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same or similar thoughts.

1. The word "girl" to me indicates a prepubescent female. To me, post puberty, "girls" become women. To refer to grown people as "girls" to me seems disrespectful and almost infantilizing. It might just be a pet peeve of mine.

2. While Tristan is entitled to her version of what a "butch girl" is. I would have preferred if she worded it as her opinion or preference or what gets her blood hot rather than using sweeping generalizations and stereotypical examples lumped into "butch girls". "Butch" is a very large category of very diverse people, appearances, presentations, genders, etc.

3. This made me chuckle - "Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives". We have Tristan. Regardless of how we now identify, we are female either by birth or by choice. We have your body. We have explored your body. We know your body. We know how to play your body much like a musician plays an instrument. We know how to make many different kinds of music with that body to bring you the different pleasure you might desire. Why does her quote make it seem like some miracle or strange twist of fate?

4. This confused me - "the girls who are a different gender". I admit, I still have trouble with the sex/gender thing. But is this even logical? Can you be a girl of a different gender? Arent you a "girl/female" or gendered in a way more representative of who you are using whatever term you choose to use?

So, your thoughts?



Hi Kobi,

The exerpt looks familiar, and I'm thinking I might have read it in an introduction to an anthology, a LONG time ago. Is this the case?

I have a couple of different thoughts about this -- being a published writer of erotic fiction myself, sometimes you have to tweak your words to appeal to your audience. I'm not sure that's what Tristan is doing here, but that's the vibe I got. Second, everyone has a journey, and I'll admit my own journey of involvement with people who have identified as butch and /or trans has come a LONG way, so words I may have used in the past I wouldn't use today, and views I may have had in the past don't exist today. Lastly, I know several butches who refer to themselves as "butch girl", so while those two words together may not resonate with everyone, it *is* a label that exists.

That's just my six cents....

[QueenofSmirks]

I'm running late so can't read the rest of the thread, but I did just read Post #14 where you explain it's a quote from 1999. Will read (and post) more later!

[Novelafemme]

I have known butches who ID as butch but would do a double take if their girlfriend referred to them as "my butch" or frequently referred to them as butch at all. A lot of folks who are butch ID'd do not use the word a ton. I know of two who have complained when others have overused it referring to them. The others may have been trying to impose gender expectations on these people or were overly foregrounding gender.

Just adding that point.

Thank you for this, Martina! :)

[BullDog]

Like I said before, girl still = less than to many people. It's so fucked up.

There is an entire universe of difference to me in the following:

Some guy says "You, girl. I need some service over here"
My lover says "You're my girl" and has that tone of wonder in her voice
I say to my friend "Girl, you need Jesus"
My friend says "I need to check with the girl first"
Someone says to someone else (consensually) "Girl, you need to drop and stay until I say otherwise"

Girl is not a bad word. Girl is not less than. I never get "Sir'd" ever, but I think I know the difference when people are speaking from their own place of internal hierarchy.

Girl does not default to submissive or weak or helpless. Not all girls are children or childlike any more than a masculine word defaults to strong or Top or capable or adult.

You can get "Sir'd" in a derisive way too. It's all in context.

Ya know when people are using a term like girl it's usually in real life interactions with people they know- like how June describes above.

It isn't about deeply seeded gender identity or whether someone ids as submissive etc. It's just real people having real conversations and the ebb and flow of language.

I don't see how anyone can not read the essay by Tristan Taormino and not see that she is quite familiar with butches and that it was a butch positive piece.

Isn't it all about context and intent?

[Sachita]

"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

If I read that in a personal ad, I would ask her out on a date in a new york minute.

This is how I feel too. I know we all have our own thing and clearly labels and descriptors are important to many, however I am into anything girl, bitch, cunt, whatever, HOWEVER the moment one outside our culture says it I too get a little twitchy (CherylNYC lol).

I'm really turned on by butch lesbians. That very masculine energy whether it overt or androgynous. I especially love a faggie little butch boi. We all have different things that make our panties wet and things we find politically correct.

[JustJo]

Interesting conversation...

I didn't get twitchy when I read "girl", simply because I read it as a creative piece coming from her own "me" space. She likes butch girls. Others like butch bois. Others like *fill in the blank.*

The word girl used to be insulting to me....back in the 80s and 90s when I was younger and working hard to stand up for myself, be independent, and be respected.

Now that I'm a crone of 50 (and, yes, that's a word I like for myself :) ), I am not offended by "girl" unless there's a derogatory or sarcastic tone included. I work out 3 times a week with a group of 60, 70 and 80 year old women....who all call themselves girls. I like it. In that context, it's embracing the youthful spirit and energy they feel....and I give a wave and a "see ya later girls...have a great day!" as I leave, just like they all do.

Since moving to South Florida, I've felt less "isms" than anywhere I've ever lived. It feels accepting....like whoever you are and whatever you do is all good. Snack and I sat at the beach one day, talking about this very thing as people of all ages, sizes, colors, etc. walked by. We were spotting Family...and loving that no one appeared to give a single rat's ass about what anyone else was doing. We were all too busy enjoying ourselves.

Living here...I've also been called "girl" or "lady" or "ma'am" more than I ever have in my life either, but there's no edge....it's just how people greet and talk here. I'm good with it. For me, context and tone counts for more than the word used (with a few exceptions).

[DapperButch]

I read it as her talking about what she desires, using the words she had at that point in her life. Maybe she still calls her Butch partners Girls. Maybe they like it. Maybe some of you think that makes them less than.

We are so hell bent on policing the genders, gender presentations, etc. of others. Not Butch, not Butch enough, not Femme, not Femme enough. Not Masculine enough. Not man enough. Man up. Blah, blah, blah.

God. All the things she talked about, I love too. I especially love it in people who are secure enough in their heads that a fucking word doesn't send them over the edge and make them unable to hear something beautiful. Yeah, to me, that is beautiful.

<Big Clap>

I hate when the whole, "use this exact wording because otherwise we will pound the fuck out of you because you have insulted .000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the population of ______ identity, causes everyone to miss the beautiful/power/enlightening/humorous/etc., message, the person was trying to share.

[Massive]

Maybe it's different for me because I'm from over the pond, but I didn't see her use of 'girl' in a negative sense at all. I've been getting called Sir now since I was 18 years old, when I finally got the courage to come out and I went from having hair down to my arse to a short back and sides, it doesn't offend me when I get called ma'am or miss or lady, I do get taken aback when it happens now, more because I'm just not used to being referred to in that manner. I ID as a GenderQueer, Masculine ID'd, Butch, Dyke, which I have to say, here in the UK, fuck, I even have to explain it frequently to my own family, let alone complete strangers walking up to me in the street who see a 6' tall dude, in mens clothes, with short hair, broad shoulders and a deep voice.
I think if we let ourselves be offended by everything out there today, we might as well just shut ourselves indoors, lock the door and throw away the key, then retreat into our own personally built forts in the living room...
People are people, they make mistakes, the good ones are those who own up to it and apologise, for instance, today I was walking along the beach and had a foodbag in my pocket to collect shells and stones so that I would have less sand in my pockets by the time I got back to the car, a large, loving black lab came bounding up to me, grinning, tail wagging, expecting a treat from the bag I'd just returned to my pocket, his owners were not far behind me, the gentleman said "Don't be greedy, that fellow doesn't have any food for you!" then as he drew closer and saw my face he stopped and stuttered, "Oh dear, it's a lady, I am so sorry, I cannot apologise enough." and my reaction was to grin. It was no big deal, it is never a big deal for me, but again, as I said at the beginning, maybe it's a cultural thing from being over here ...

[dark_crystal]

We all have different things that make our panties wet and things we find politically correct.

I think you mean undergarments! "Panties" assumes a gender ID that may not be accurate for others in the thread!

NO, I mean, my assigning a gender to panties indicates a projection of my undergarment preference on others who may share my gender id but choose for their own valid personal reasons to wear boxers

WAIT, why am I assuming boxers are the opposite of panties?? What is the deal with my undergarment binary???

[Dude]

.. u can reslove it by

3. or don't get mad at ppl who ID diff than u would << now theres a thought ~
4. u can fight the world and stress urself out <<not good causes wrinkles ~
~ocean


I snipped a bit out of what you said here, so forgive me.
I dont even know who you are writing to but will jump off
of this to be clearer about who I am and where I am coming from.

I have absoultely no problem with people who ID differently
than me. If I came across that way to anyone , I apologize.

I tried to carefully describe how a few words feel to me. period.

For most of my life I have had close friends who I would
describe as tweeners (<= in a non insulting way and have had
many conversations about butch-femme stuff with them )
I love them ,they are my friends. All of them very much supported me
as a baby butch when I needed it the most.

I was actually refered to a butch-femme site by a bisexual I had
a quite enjoyable tyrst with. (who I met on a yahoo dating thing)
There was no future for us in the long term because she really
desired femminine women and manly men.
She knew it would be sick and wrong (lol and what a relief)
to try to change me so she steered me to a place to be appreciated.
That was brutally honest and I know hard for her because she
liked and enjoyed me a lot but.....
I warned her , I really did.
Yet she was attracted to ME (but not in the perfect way )
and so it went wilty after a few months.

I can not tell you how many times my life that I have dated
women who have tried to soften me up, change my walk, hair
and try to convince me to dress differently
( to be more OK and loved by them)
I was called sir even with long hair, way back in the day.
This is what (some) butches go through in life and it does become
a war just to be ourselves and secure in who we are , exactly as we are.
If your experiences are different from mine ,then jolly good for you ( seriously)

We dont have the worry or headache of coming out constantly like
femmes do , which I feel quite grateful for.
When we do go out to face the world sometimes it is not exactly
a picnic either. We confuse people , which is fun somedays and
somedays not.
My personal "resolve" is to not change who I am for anyone. ever.
wrinkles show a life well lived (or character I've always heard)
I have many.
This chip on my shoulder, isnt really a chip it's called survival.
I'm sure I'm not alone in having one and I love that it has kept me safe.

[Novelafemme]

I think you mean undergarments! "Panties" assumes a gender ID that may not be accurate for others in the thread!

NO, I mean, my assigning a gender to panties indicates a projection of my undergarment preference on others who may share my gender id but choose for their own valid personal reasons to wear boxers

WAIT, why am I assuming boxers are the opposite of panties?? What is the deal with my undergarment binary???

I just don't like the word panties period! We call 'em chonies at our house. And I've never heard (or even thought of) an undergarment binary, but I think I'm in love with your brain, DC!

[~ocean]

~~ dude ~~ not writing to anyone .. just saying :) .. thought i'd add a bit of humor ~

[Martina]

I briefly dated a fifty-something male-ID'd butch -- not a member of this or the other site -- who, if say a waitress addressed us as "ladies," would have a sullen half an hour or so. I can't say it ruined too many dates, but even so. . . . . Looking back on it, I am not sure I would go out with someone now who was so easily bruised by a social reality they were sure to run up against with some frequency.

[Wolfsong]

I just don't like the word panties period! We call 'em chonies at our house. And I've never heard (or even thought of) an undergarment binary, but I think I'm in love with your brain, DC!

Roos here.......but these are adult roos boxers & panties............not under-aged roos like under-roos.........oh damn....... binary age bias. I'm pretty certain that Andi just went by wearing the Jaws boxers that I never wore because they are cut funny and ride just enough to be too annoying for me.

[julieisafemme]

I liked the piece. My partner is not a girl but he is a butch. I would not call him girl but he was not offended by the piece. I liked the juxtaposition of girl and butch in the piece. It highlighted the usual connotation of the word by expressing what many would say girls should not be. I understand that the word might not be acceptable to some people. Some butches don't want to be called he. I would have a problem if I wrote a piece about my partner and used he instead of girl just like she did and then was told I was being offensive, heteronormative or dated.