The Purse: Unpacking Femme Privilege

[Medusa]

We have knapsacks and backpacks, perhaps it's time to stir the things around in the Purse to take a look at Femme Privilege.

Many of us "pass" as straight whether we want to or not.

There is a long list of privileges associated with being Femme in the outside world. Let's talk about them.
I also believe that privilege can be situational. i.e. Femme privilege looks very different on a website geared toward Butches, Femmes, and Queer folks than it does at the supermarket or on the job.

So there it is. Let's have a discussion between Femmes and Feminine-identified people to see if we can do a little unpacking.

[christie]

... for starting this thread...

Are you in my head??? I've been trying for several weeks to formulate my thoughts for such a thread in a manner that would make sense to others and open a dialogue.

Today is quite busy for me, but I will be back to expand...

Bottom line, for me, from my perspective... I think as a femme I have experienced far more privilege than my beautiful Jess has received male privilege.

I am not on the receiving end of the blatent stares, the not so quiet whispers.... most have no idea of my orientation until I tell them.

ACK! Back to :accountant: before I go off on a tear!

Thanks again... very interested to hear others' points of view.

Christie

[apretty]

let me first say that i am willing to learn, here.

i find that i get a little caught up in being female-bodied as well as feminine and (combined with queer, my olive skin-tone, and my big ASS) and i find it difficult to pluck the *privilege* from the layers of all the -isms that i embody. as i said, i'm willing to learn--take a few of my goodies from my purse, as it were. so i will spend some time thinking and being open to the idea of my priv, i can't wait to hear what everyone's thinking.

(tho i am considering yesterday, Ez and i had to go to the state capital yesterday and there were a LOT of white, middle-aged men to navigate... well there's a large liberty bell out in the courtyard and i wanted to ring it/tried to ring it--i wonder sometimes if Ez is just more "appropriate" than i am or that he's more aware of already being judged (or possible danger?) for who he is--possibly a little of both.... more thoughts later, i am sure Ez will respond, tho just now he's off to the gym.)

[Medusa]

let me first say that i am willing to learn, here.

i find that i get a little caught up in being female-bodied as well as feminine and (combined with queer, my olive skin-tone, and my big ASS) and i find it difficult to pluck the *privilege* from the layers of all the -isms that i embody. as i said, i'm willing to learn--take a few of my goodies from my purse, as it were. so i will spend some time thinking and being open to the idea of my priv, i can't wait to hear what everyone's thinking.

(tho i am thinking about the way that Ez and i had to go to the state capital yesterday and there were a LOT of white, middle-aged men to navigate... well there's a large liberty bell out in the courtyard and i wanted to ring it/tried to ring it--i wonder sometimes if Ez is just more "appropriate" than i am or that he's more aware of already being judged for who he is--possibly a little of both.... more thoughts later, i am sure Ez will respond, tho just now he's off to the gym.)

THIS! THIS! THIS!

My own layers of growing up poor, educationally disadvantaged, being fat, being from the South (and all that it implies for other people), and the added layer of my brand of Femme are sometimes hard to disentangle from the Femme privilege.
Add in the fact that class-wise, I dont have a lot of the markers that some folks have. I think they call that "no home raising". :)
I sometimes end up feeling like no matter the fact that I "pass" as a straight woman, I am still NEVER going to be the "right kind" of woman.

[apretty]

THIS! THIS! THIS!

My own layers of growing up poor, educationally disadvantaged, being fat, being from the South (and all that it implies for other people), and the added layer of my brand of Femme are sometimes hard to disentangle from the Femme privilege.
Add in the fact that class-wise, I dont have a lot of the markers that some folks have. I think they call that "no home raising". :)
I sometimes end up feeling like no matter the fact that I "pass" as a straight woman, I am still NEVER going to be the "right kind" of woman.

"no home training" (tho, my parents were VERY strict and highly critical--so GO FIGURE.) i will ring that damn liberty bell!!!

[evolveme]

THIS! THIS! THIS!

My own layers of growing up poor, educationally disadvantaged, being fat, being from the South (and all that it implies for other people), and the added layer of my brand of Femme are sometimes hard to disentangle from the Femme privilege.
Add in the fact that class-wise, I dont have a lot of the markers that some folks have. I think they call that "no home raising". :)
I sometimes end up feeling like no matter the fact that I "pass" as a straight woman, I am still NEVER going to be the "right kind" of woman.

I once took a womens' studies class that began with an exercise in privilege. Our professor passed out an equal number of tootsie rolls to every student in the room. We were asked to remove a piece of candy from our privilege pile if we could not answer in the affirmative for each question she posed, such as:

I grew up with more than 20 books in my home.

My family never worried about where meals would come from.

Questions around race and education and class were all asked, although I distinctly recall that no questions of size were addressed. When the exercise was complete, and as white as I am, I was still among a group in the room with the fewest tootsie rolls on her desk.

It occurs to me now that had the questions been inclusive of size, I would have had a larger share of 'privilege' at the end of that lesson. It also occurs to me now how much it meant to me to have so few pieces of candy.

We tend to hold our oppression close to us, like a kind of prize. I want to keep in mind of this - that even while I am the daughter of poor, white Southern uneducated people - that holding to my lack of power will not gain me anything, and certainly will not bring me any closer to netting a wider share of power for everyone I believe deserves a more fair share.

While it's true that I pass to the unsuspecting as a straight woman, it's also and equally true that I am not one. I need to be cognizant of the ways in which this can both harm my community and however, if ever, it can serve us. Being read as straight sometimes has the unintended affect of meaning that I am allowed entrance into spaces that would not otherwise permit Queer. And once inside, I have more power to do and change what more visible others might not have.

I have to hold this kind of power carefully, recognizing that backlash is ever immanent and always dangerous. I cannot go incognito. It's their lack of perception that is at issue; not my lack of forthrightness.

[Zimmeh]

I also can pass for being straight and that hurts when you want to date someone who thinks you are. I grew up with three brothers and I have had to work for everything I have now. Some people ask me why I waited so long to *come* out and I explain to them, that my father, was a man who did not like gay people. When I was 28 years old, he passed away and I was finally able to be me. Having to keep your true self hidden for so long, makes you long for your own identity even more. That is why when someone ask's me if I am gay, I tell them very proudly that yes I am; even if I lose my job as a result. I am proud to be femme. I also grew up in the South.

Have a good day,

Zimmy

[julieisafemme]

WHat an excellent thread!! I have to add femme privilege on top of all the other privileges I have: white, upper middle class upbringing, educated, previously heterosexual married mama, able bodied. I chose Judaism as an adult so I don't feel as though I have encountered a lot of antisemitism in my life. The privilege of being a femme and having the ability to disclose my sexual orientation if I choose to is a definite privilege. When I first started dating my partner I did not notice any difference in how I was treated. As time has gone on I am now noticing people looking or seeming uncomfortable. I am sure it was there before I was just oblivious. It never even occurred to me to look for or expect that before because I have never encountered any discrimination in my life.

To those I have come out to in my community and in my family I have experienced some not very nice reactions. The only thing I think has made it easier is the femme invisibility factor. I don't look queer to most straight people so I am more palatable I guess.

The interesting thing to me is that the place I feel the most out of place is the queer community. I don't have any credibility. I've only had one partner, hopefully always will. I don't have a history of activism. I'm not sure if time will change that. So many of the experiences of other femmes here I have yet to experience or may never experience. I guess I don't know how to unpack all this privilege. I'm trying.

[lillith]

I feel it is a priviledge to be a femme in a world that assumes me to be straight. It is a priviledge to me because I am given the opportunity to educate and possible take some of the hate away. My female straight friends are always eager to listen and learn. My friend Melizsa imagined that because I am femme, that my boifriend would have a certain look (Joe Dirt anyone?) It meant a lot to me to teach her. In turn, she educated her family. It was a neat cycle to watch.

[hippieflowergirl]

i dont know what to do with this thread.

i had a super shinyshiny femme chip (with the word " marginalized " inscribed on it in really pretty foo foo calligraphy) on my shoulder and Medusa just poinked it offa me ingloriously with one mighty and gentle flick of her dainty finger.

i dont know whether to swear like a longshorefemme or be uber-grateful. or both. prob'ly going to do both.

i can only shuffle around the following two thoughts at the moment:

1) i dont want to pass. i stopped wanting to pass a bit later in life than some (32) but once i stopped i never looked back. if i thought my bangs would look good parted in the center i'd have "queer-as-fuck" tattooed on my forehead.

2) my white privilege feels more omnipresent to me than any of the other institutionalized ways in which i might benefit. it's the one i feel most keenly anyway. because i live in HippievilleUSA i am blessed with an environment that, quite literally, finds it unremarkable that i'm queer. that same environment is also wildly indifferent to the fact that i am poor, fat, well-educated, and that i'm constantly humming tunelessly. the one thing about me that's difficult not to note is the one thing for which i would prefer not to be noticed: i'm as annoying as hell. i live in a little hippiebubble.

i'm going to apply some pain relief to my now Medusa-shattered paradigms. i'll be back when the thinking stops hurting so much.



:hippie:

[Gemme]

I once took a womens' studies class that began with an exercise in privilege. Our professor passed out an equal number of tootsie rolls to every student in the room. We were asked to remove a piece of candy from our privilege pile if we could not answer in the affirmative for each question she posed, such as:

I grew up with more than 20 books in my home.

My family never worried about where meals would come from.

Questions around race and education and class were all asked, although I distinctly recall that no questions of size were addressed. When the exercise was complete, and as white as I am, I was still among a group in the room with the fewest tootsie rolls on her desk.

It occurs to me now that had the questions been inclusive of size, I would have had a larger share of 'privilege' at the end of that lesson. It also occurs to me now how much it meant to me to have so few pieces of candy.

We tend to hold our oppression close to us, like a kind of prize. I want to keep in mind of this - that even while I am the daughter of poor, white Southern uneducated people - that holding to my lack of power will not gain me anything, and certainly will not bring me any closer to netting a wider share of power for everyone I believe deserves a more fair share.

While it's true that I pass to the unsuspecting as a straight woman, it's also and equally true that I am not one. I need to be cognizant of the ways in which this can both harm my community and however, if ever, it can serve us. Being read as straight sometimes has the unintended affect of meaning that I am allowed entrance into spaces that would not otherwise permit Queer. And once inside, I have more power to do and change what more visible others might not have.

I have to hold this kind of power carefully, recognizing that backlash is ever immanent and always dangerous. I cannot go incognito. It's their lack of perception that is at issue; not my lack of forthrightness.


I relate to this post very much. Thank you.

[friskyfemme]

We have knapsacks and backpacks, perhaps it's time to stir the things around in the Purse to take a look at Femme Privilege.

Many of us "pass" as straight whether we want to or not.

There is a long list of privileges associated with being Femme in the outside world. Let's talk about them.
I also believe that privilege can be situational. i.e. Femme privilege looks very different on a website geared toward Butches, Femmes, and Queer folks than it does at the supermarket or on the job.

So there it is. Let's have a discussion between Femmes and Feminine-identified people to see if we can do a little unpacking.
I just I feel I have earned the 'priviledge'. I grew up in a large family where my Dad was a white collar worker and my mother a blue collar worker. My dad was violent and authoritarian. My mom was sweet, gentle, smart, artistic and could fix almost anything. I have inherited her traits. My MOM could dress to the 'nines' and fix a leaking sink. When I first came out, I presented as butch. Mainly I think because no matter how smart or competent I was a women I couldn't get ahead or be taken seriously because I was a small frame, very young looking, and femme. I saw that with my Mom being passed up for promotion by a younger inexperienced males. I didn't want to re live what mother went through. Also I wanted permission to protect myself, by making myself unattractive to hetro males. However, I didn't id as butch and felt I was acting out a role. It was a very special butch that swept me off my feet 40yrs ago. He accepted me for who I was. He allowed me to grow into my own. Unfortunately, I outgrew him. I continue to discover myself everyday. I have struggled, planned, and worked to develop ME. I have lived long enough to know that priviledge is earned. Position is given.

[SFFemmePrincess]

I'm still sorting out thoughts and feelings and absorbing others thoughts on the subject, but I just wanted to mention that when the subject of femme privilege comes up, my first thought is that it breaks my heart a little every time we're in public and Logic tells me he has to pee...

I never thought that something as simple as going to the restroom would have privilege attached to it, and it makes me sad that it does...

[friskyfemme]

We have knapsacks and backpacks, perhaps it's time to stir the things around in the Purse to take a look at Femme Privilege.

Many of us "pass" as straight whether we want to or not.

There is a long list of privileges associated with being Femme in the outside world. Let's talk about them.
I also believe that privilege can be situational. i.e. Femme privilege looks very different on a website geared toward Butches, Femmes, and Queer folks than it does at the supermarket or on the job.

So there it is. Let's have a discussion between Femmes and Feminine-identified people to see if we can do a little unpacking.
I have come in to my own throughout a long metamorphsis. When I first came out 40+ years ago, I presented as butch. This was because it was the closest to what I id. I was raised in a large family with a white collared yankee Dad and a blue collared southern Mom. My Dad was paranoid schizophrenia, abusive, and alcoholic. My Mom was gentle, kind and nurturing. She also could fix anything from a broken washing machine to a child's toy. She appeared tombyish, but she was abused and supressed. I fought my own non hetro id because I reasoned my orientation was due to my poor male role model. So, I got married not once but twice. I have 2 bio children and 1 adopted child. I was only married a total of yrs. As a butch guys didn't hit on me, but I didn't feel comfortable. I met my first love a great butch who allowed me to grow into my skin. Unfortunately, I became aware that I had changed and he didn't unfortunately and we grew apart after 10yrs. I have had a few other longterm relationships but never lasting. I spend one day a week in pampering myself (what I call my femme day). I do feel I have earned my priviledge as a femme. I am capable of letting an interesting guy know I am interested.
If a straight guy hits on me, I am capable of letting him know I am not interested. The difference today then back when I was young, I don't have to qualify with my id. I am confident enough to say thanks but no thanks. I don't have to give a reason. I do believe priviledge is earned. It is not entitlement.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I have a whole heap of privlidges. I'm white, educated, with an educated family, I can get things that suit my culture (well, ish. enough) and tastes, I don't have kids so I can pick up and move anytime I like. I'm not bogged down by a morgage cause I don't swing that way so I I dont' have the added debt. I have a loan from school but a canauck loan is far better than an american one, at least they removed the provincial loan.

At 16 I had two set of parents that are all friends. I was shown that you can be friends with your ex's and how to do it - as it's important for people to get along if there's kids involved.

My parents have been pretty damn supportive of me. They didn't care I was gay.

We didn't have much money, and we lived in a group house, I had an extremely disturbed and abusive - severely abusive brother - and severely abusive boyfriends... but this thread isn't about how things don't count cause I've got exception tickets.

it's about how I know I've got priveldge. It's hard when talking about walking into shops though... inks gets occationally hassled/stared at because she looks like a big blonde germanic dyke, I get hassled a little more often for having big tits and white blonde hair.

I don't get harassed for my gender, she rarely ever gets sexual harassment. We are both in the store getting harassed. By the same people, usually. If someone harasses inks, I can gaurentee within 5 seconds that harassment will move on to me. Same the other way, though slightly less often. If I get really verbally harassed by an idiot, that idiot will probably then start harassing inks. We look like lesbians when together.

however, on my own I can keep my sexuality to myself in a minicab going home at 2am. Which is wise. minicabs can be dangerous things. I don't know how many times a minicab driver has tried picking me up. It's rather frightening. If I was visibly a dyke to them, I'd be way way more frightened.

There are times I'm very glad I'm cisgendered and not visibly gay. Makes traveling a lot easier. Makes going in and out of countries easier. Inks gets dirty looks and occational extra checks but not enough to bug her all that much. However she was really fucked off in Malaysia because people stared at her all the time, quite openly and we were CONSTANTLY harassed by people trying to talk to her about her tatoos and using that point to try and bully her into buying something/taking the piss/making shitty comments.

I didn't get that kind of harassment in maylaysia. I found people treated me with greater respect there. Her treatment was worse; mine was blissfully free of sexual harassment, mostly.

She has to hide her sexuality at work - or make it a complete non-issue and skips around questions. She works with very ill/terminally ill children and parents often ask her personal questions. she can normally suss out who's going to be ok with it, but the majority of people she can't take a risk with. Not that she'd be fired for being gay and out. It's against the law and it's a respected hospital, run by the NHS. So that wouldn't happen. But she'd find it difficult to talk to the parents in the way she needs to if they had problems with her.

I don't get asked personal questions.

Inks gets far more personal questions about herself than I do. People are more curious about her "presentation" in the mainstream world. Not rude, mostly, but just "you what?? sorry what did you just ask me?" usually from young people, not meaning harm but being pig stupid about stuff and expecting inki to educate them.

[Puplove]

Every time I need to go to the bathroom when I'm out in public - and I march right to the "women's" door without a worry, knowing without a doubt I will not be challenged or made uncomfortable in any way, I am humbled by how steeped I am in femme priveledge -- all other "isms" aside.

Add to that -- PLUS every time I feel like it, I can have a coffee or soda or drink of water when out in public because I KNOW I can just go to the bathroom with no trouble at all.

[Lady_Wu]

I grew up in a privileged world. Most of my parents friends were either gay or bi, so when I came out that was no big deal. My mother looked more butch than most of the butches I knew in school. She was bi and had a femme girlfriend. I also grew up in an upper-class environment. My parents had graduate degrees; most of our friends were doctors, professors, and the people who ran the county. I came out when I was in my first year of Jr. High. I went on to get a graduate degree at a State University but spent a year in grad school at an Ivy League College. I've managed a bookstore, taught Philosophy at a University, and been a librarian for years. THAT was my privilege.
As far as passing as a femme, I COULD have but chose not to do so. I also made it clear to those around me that I was a queer femme. This could have thrown me out of straight society, but my upper-class up-bringing and "air of education" seemed to prevent this but being femme DID get me thrown of lesbian society more than a few times. I was stopped at bars and coffeehouses for being straight. I wore skirts and dresses rather than the "uniform" of flannel shirts and jeans. My hair, short enough to be a bhikkhuni's, was accompanied by make-up and perfume. I knew enough about b/f dynamics to hope that one day I would meet a butch who wanted a high femme one day. Finally I did, and my world was complete.
I realize that I was extremely lucky to have grown up in the environment that I did and to have been given the education that I had. To this day, according to my two husbands, I still have that aura of high class about me. I don't flaunt it , nor do I apologize for it. I am who I am. I don't think that I am better than anyone else b/c of this, nor do I think I am less. I am very queer where I live: queer, femme, Taoist/Tibetan Buddhist, Asian in my outlook, bookish, intellectual, outspoken in a place where most women aren't, my dresses don't look like anyone elses's, etc I realize that I might get slammed for this extended statement of who I am, but be that as it may.
Lady_Wu

[Mrs. Strutt]

I'm not sure where I fit into this thread either.

I grew up in a family of extreme white privilege--financially, educationally, just about in all ways you can think of. My family also never cared I was gay, I am close to my siblings and my parents are still happily married after 48 years. I don't know a lot about hardship or what it is like to live life without any safety nets.

My background, however, has made me shy away from talking about how I grew up. Mention the word "privilege" and I tend to cringe. Through the years, I've been judged fairly harshly on occasion for having a privileged life, so I hide my upbringing or any indication I might have privileges not enjoyed by others as a result.

My femme privilege is not something I dwell on for those reasons. Maybe someday I will be able to think about privilege--any kind of privilege--without negative energy attached to the thoughts.

[Nat]

I think many femmes do have privilege, but I'm not sure it's exactly femme privilege. I'm trying to think what exactly femme privilege would be, and although I can think of many privileges shared by femmes which are not shared by many butches and transguys, I see these falling into two distinct categories: a very real privilege based on gender-expectation-conformity and passing privilege.

Here are my thoughts.

Gender-Expectation-Conformity Privilege

Insofar as a person's gender-presentation matches a culture's gender-expectation, that person has privilege. When I walk into a bathroom, people see a woman who looks like a woman. When I'm pulled over by the police, they see a woman who looks like a woman. When I go anywhere and do anything, people see a woman who looks like a woman. That is a privilege.

I also think this gender-expectation-conformity privilege extends to issues of being gay-bashed or harrassed by homophobic strangers. It's not usually a person's orientation that strangers notice - it's their gender presentation - unless a person is on the arm of another person of the same perceived gender or wearing items of clothing that scream, "I'm queeeeeeeeeeer." But

I don't consider it a "femme privilege," and here's why: Not all femmes have this privilege. Not all butches are without this privilege, not all non-femme queer or lesbian women are without this privilege.

It's a privilege that many femmes have, but to call it femme privilege seems to put some restrictions on the definition of what a femme is and is not - which subsequently seems to try to disqualify/discount/erase the femmeness of those who don't meet the gender-expectation-conforming requirement.

Furthermore, the term "femme privilege" used to mean "gender-expectation-conforming privilege" also implies restrictions on the definitions of butches, of non-b-f queer and lesbian women and even some transguys (and probably others).. Not every butch is mistaken for a man when she or he or hy enters a bathroom. Not every butch is interpreted as anything other than a gender-non-conforming woman. Not every non-femme lesbian or queer women is interpreted as anything other than a gender-non-conforming woman. To imply that femmes are the only ones who get this privilege - even in a strictly butch-femme culture is to imply that butches who receive the same privilege are somehow not butch or less butch.

Passing-Privilege

Is it a Privilege?

Passing as straight and/or cisgender is often cited as a femme privilege, but passing-privilege is such a mixed bag. I'm not sure it's exactly a privilege, though it sure can have some advantages. I know in the past I've seen some really great, highly informed discussions of whether or not passing is a privilege. I can't replicate those here, but my impression is that it's not the same type of privilege the type of privilege you get for being read for who you actually are. I am sure there are others here who can speak to this aspect with more authority than I can.

Who in our Community has Passing Privilege?

Again, as with Gender-Expectation-Conforming Privilege, conflating Passing-Privilege with "Femme Privilege" implies that this is a privilege unique to and inclusive of all femmes. There are femmes who do not pass for straight and/or cisgender even when they try real hard. There are butches who do pass for straight and/or cisgender. There are plenty of non-femme queer and lesbian women who pass for straight and/or cisgender.

Do femmes have privileges not covered by the above? I can't think of any others, but I'm a bit tired today. Are any of these privileges due to femmeness, or are they due to other traits shared with many other people?

Though I cannot see exactly how "femme privilege" exists, I do think many (the majority?) of femmes have the above-listed privileges. Am I being too stringent in my application? If these privileges applied to 80% of femmes, 60% of non-b-f queer and lesbian women and 20% of butches, would it still qualify as femme privilege?

I have met both butches and femmes in person and online who express dismay at their own lack of conformity to butch/femme gender-expression standards. (For example, how many butches wear make-up vs how many butches will admit they wear make-up in this community? How many butches wear women's underwear vs how many butches will admit they wear women's underwear in this community? How many femmes are daily read as lesbians vs how many femmes will admit they are read as lesbians in this community? How many femmes hate wearing dresses or makeup vs how many femmes will admit they hate wearing dresses or makeup within this community?

I just think calling this privilege "femme privilege" may re-enforce an external standard for internally-defined identities.

I'm open though - these just my tired thoughts for the moment.

[Medusa]

I'm not sure where I fit into this thread either.

I grew up in a family of extreme white privilege--financially, educationally, just about in all ways you can think of. My family also never cared I was gay, I am close to my siblings and my parents are still happily married after 48 years. I don't know a lot about hardship or what it is like to live life without any safety nets.

My background, however, has made me shy away from talking about how I grew up. Mention the word "privilege" and I tend to cringe. Through the years, I've been judged fairly harshly on occasion for having a privileged life, so I hide my upbringing or any indication I might have privileges not enjoyed by others as a result.

My femme privilege is not something I dwell on for those reasons. Maybe someday I will be able to think about privilege--any kind of privilege--without negative energy attached to the thoughts.



I get this, Mrs. Strutt!

It's hard for me to hear "Oh, that's just your privilege" talking when I feel like it's something I didn't have control over.
Being white, a Femme, cisgendered, and the other myriad ways that there are privileges (situational and static) in my way of being feels negative sometimes.
I dont *want* to be told Im privileged for being white or cisgendered when I have a background that includes various class/size/ability struggles. It feels like all of my hardship gets negated by merely being white/cisgendered/Femme in B-F space/etc.
I do know on a core level that I have privileges even if I don't exert them in ugly ways or even if Im hyper aware of them. They're there. Sometimes I can see them, sometimes other people have to see them for me.

I can understand shying away from talking about how you grew up - especially if there is immediate judgment attached to you by other people when you talk about it. :)

[Lynn]

The trap I have fallen into in the past is to imagine that the world is generally one way, and I am another. It has lead to a lot of insecurity and questioning about how I present and how I'm perceived. What's true for me is that my experience of the world, and how I am perceived in the world, has more to do with the specific environment than to a generalized expectation of how the world "is" or what I am supposed to look like. And, how I experience acceptance and privilege is directly proportionate to my ability to be overt about my identity as a lesbian (and sometimes as a Jew).

I know I am privileged in many ways. I am an educated, white, able-bodied, middle class woman who meets all outward expectations. As close as I get to other cultures and experiences in my work, I can never own them as mine. I understand the idea of "femme privilege" but it's more difficult to see this. At least, it seems complex to me. There is no down-side to me being seen as white--I am white. But, maybe if I had African ancestry, I would be ambivalent about "passing" and the associated privileges. Being femme (or, for me, really a lesbian), it is a mixed thing to be perceived in one way but know that I am another. It creates conflict and, for me, and sometimes it causes depression and paranoia. Any time I feel that I must hide my identity, I don't consider this a privilege. But, then again, I am not dealing with basic needs and rights. It is definitely a privilege to reasonably expect to be treated with dignity by people on the street, in stores, in bathrooms, and by public servants.

I am thinking out loud about this--.

[lipstixgal]

I don't know where I fit in this thread but here goes. I'm white, educated and very privileged. I don't fit the typical lesbian whatever that is I'm a femme but look straight. In fact all the women at my school I'm studying medical assistant so most students are women and very few lesbians. The lesbians that are there are of color and they don't seem to really care. They are butch!! maybe that makes a difference I don't know. But its really hard to try to be out when everyone thinks you are straight. Anyway, it was good reading everyone's posts and it makes me feel better to be a femme.

[Nat]

I know that in the past, I've supported the idea that there is femme privilege, so this morning I decided to dig up the lists I made way back when (May, 2007) to see if anything on my list might fall outside of the gender-conforming privilege or passing privilege. Here is the list I made back then:

Oh, I'm gonna color-code these:

Passing Privilege
Gender-Conforming Privilege
Other / Possible Femme Privilege (at least within the Queer Context)


As a femme -

- I can cry without worrying that somebody will think I`m less feminine <--how would you categorize this?
- If I chose to be a housefemme, I wouldn`t face the same judgment a butch would
- I can choose to come out when I want to - on my terms and in the way I choose
- When I go through a breakup, people are more likely to assume I was the innocent victim
- If I talk about my chest - it`s not controversial. Nobody cringes (at least not at the idea of my having a chest)<-- how would you categorize this one?
- If I ask somebody for a tampon - I get a normal reaction <--how would you categorize this one?
- If I walk into the ladies room, I get no reaction
- If I sit down at Denny`s, the old man across the way doesn`t stare at me all through dinner due to my gender presentation
- I can walk down the street without worrying I`m going to be the target of a hate crime due to my gender presentation
- People don`t call me `sir` as a joke <-- how would you categorize this one?
- I can easily find clothes that fit my gender as well as my body
- If I approach (or PM) somebody, it`s usually not seen as predatory or creepy
- I see very few personal ads that say, `NO FEMMES!!!`
- People look at me and give me eye contact when I`m speaking with them
- I can go to the doctor and have the doctor see me and treat me as though I am my gender.
- I can carry a baby without worrying that it negates my perceived gender.
- I can wear a wide range of clothing without bringing my own gender into question or being accused of mocking other people`s gender
- Nobody calls my gender into question if I participate in activities/hobbies which are seen as feminine (i.e. knitting)
- I can spend time, money and attention on making myself look good - without it calling my gender into question
- I can be chatty and giggly without it bringing my gender into question
- I can wear makeup without calling my gender into question.
- I can wear shoes that make me taller without calling my gender into question
- I have the privilege of having titles and pronouns that fit me (she, ma`am, Ms.)
- Nobody has ever once laughed at or made fun of me for my gender presentation

Some of these were hard for me to categorize, but the one that stuck out to me today is that when a butch and a femme break up, it does seem like the sympathy of a community often goes with the femme, and the butch is seen as a dirty dog scoundrel - even if nobody knows the dirty details of the breakup. I'm not sure if other people have seen this or if my vantage point is skewed. I have seen the other scenario happen too - where the femme is painted with the scarlet letter or other implications occasionally.

Again, still open and thinking on this topic. It's a topic that intrigues me very much. I talked a lot earlier about how the gender-nonconforming and passing privileges do apply to people who are not femme and what those effects are - but I think the purple items above apply do apply to femmes and our close cousins - especially in the context of butch-femme culture and dynamics.

[MsMerrick]

Nat, I've been thinking along much the same lines, but haven't time today to reply in any kind of depth : )
Later perhaps, and thanks for putting in the time and effort :)

[Nat]

Nat, I've been thinking along much the same lines, but haven't time today to reply in any kind of depth : )
Later perhaps, and thanks for putting in the time and effort :)

I am very much looking forward to hearing your perspective! I have lots of feelings, opinions and questions, but trying to think about this is difficult because the subject shifts around so much when I try to think about it.

[Nat]

I was listening to an Outbeat Radio podcast called, "Coming out from Behind the Badge." This was a podcast about police officers both in and out of the closet, and they ended up talking about the negative side-effects of passing within the context of closeted officers. Because I feel that some of these issues do apply to passing privilege as experienced within this community, I went ahead and copied it down:

Gay officers, because a majority of them are in the closet, become the target of harrassment unknowingly by the harrasser. Many officers, they're not out to their families, friends, coworkers - and for that fact, they're unseen. Because they're unseen, a person will make homophobic jokes, gay comments, not knowing that they're affecting their officers sitting at the table. There's been many examples of good officers leaving agencies just because they were afraid that they would not get back-up because of what they've heard in the locker room, or they've heard at the briefing table. The unseen officer is a problem. The officers - once they come out - some harrassment will discontinue. They will not be harrassed in that manner. But their fear of not getting back-up or being ostricized once they are out is a very real threat to their safety.

This is just one example of how passing is a mixed bag. The podcast did interview one female cop and one man who said he is effeminate and that it's always been assumed he was gay. The majority of the officers were masculine men who spent years in the closet, and people assumed they were straight based on their gender presentations. Although there are definitely differences between passing for a straight cisgender man and passing for a straight cisgender woman, I still think this is one of many examples illustrating the mixed bag of passing for straight.

Honestly these days, I'm sick of coming out of the closet. Every aquaintanceship or friendship I begin feels like a game of double-dutch. I'm trying to figure out exactly how and when and in what way to jump in there and say, "I'm a lesbian." If it's too soon, it's out of context. If it's too late, things start feeling dishonest because I know they are assuming I am straight. It's taxing. It doesn't feel like a privilege to feel like I either have to discuss my personal life and identity with people or have them interpret and speak to me me as a straight woman.

Also, as suggested in the quoted text, I don't think it's better to be exposed to homophobic remarks by people who assume I'm straight than to be the intentional target of homophobic language. If I had to choose one-for-one between the two, maybe being the direct target is worse in that it's more immediately threatening, but receiving these messages from people who assume I'm straight is more insidious, frequent and unnerving. I definitely begin to feel those messages are the true feelings of society, and overall that makes me feel less hopeful about humanity.

[LotusFlower]

Hi - passing privilege is true but true. But I do get harrassed for being a femme too.

A butch woman I know wanted to know if I was really gay even though I had been coming to the same gay event for 6 months.

I am not super :yeahthat: girlie but a femme through and through.

[Mrs. Strutt]

Hi - passing privilege is true but true. But I do get harrassed for being a femme too.

A butch woman I know wanted to know if I was really gay even though I had been coming to the same gay event for 6 months.

I am not super :yeahthat: girlie but a femme through and through.
This is what often frustrates me the most. How is the "privilege" of passing an advantage without any validation--or perhaps 'acknowledgement' is a better word--from the butches in our community? So I "pass" in straight society...woo-fucking-hoo.

I suppose the fact I can "pass" in public is a privilege in some ways, but it has its share of challenges as well when I feel invisible within my own dynamic.

[Heart]

It feels weird for me, as a femme, to talk about "passing privilege." Passing as what? A straight women? Okay, if that's it, I have to question the privilege inherent in that. I guess from a narrow perspective, passing as straight in a homophobic world is a privilege.

But saying that passing as a straight woman is a privilege overall, is very questionable to me -- given the routine dangers that women face in a sexist, misogynistic world.

Heart

[ButterflyKisses]

I don’t think of passing as straight as a privilege. True, no one cares when I enter a public restroom; no one hurls gay slurs at me when I’m walking around by myself. But I do get drunken idiots who assume I'm straight, and that they have a right to grab me. I have gotten cat calls and crude sexual comments that made me want to carry around a bat and curl up in a ball at the same time. As many femmes here probably have.

On the flip side (while I'm not Butch and would never pretend to know what that feels like) I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, past the wrong side of the tracks. Clerks would follow me around in stores, would ask me if I was in the right place, or even kick me out. My face still burns at those memories and I have a hard time talking about my past. Of being judge instantly as a deviant or “un-normal” because of the way I looked and dressed, and where I was from.

People see what they want to see. Whether it’s as someone who fits society "norms" or not, both sides have their share of bad and good.

[MsMerrick]

My thoughts..
The other day, I had a .. shift or a moment.. when I felt deeply , how much I can never really experience or know, what it is like, to always steel oneself, before going to a public bathroom, and other such things that being clearly Butch, lends it self to.
I think that some of the thoughts i have had recently, concerning how there's no way to convey, how demoralizing and tiring it is, to constantly have to think in terms of how many steps are involved in any journey around town, something that is a recent fun thing in my life , due to my knees and other conditions.. That something I never noticed, because i didn't have to.. when I was younger .
Maybe it was some conversation with a Butch friend, I really don't know.. I just know that moment for me..happened.. and I got, that its not something I can ever fully comprehend..though I can and do empathize.
I thought I already understood it, but this emotion that passed through me, made it clear that I didn't.
But yes, is this a cisgendered privilege or a Femme one?
I tend to go with cisgendered.
I also am tending to think, that that is pretty much the privilege from which most others spring .
While I understand Heart's deep suspicion that being seen as female, in this society, is not quite all that privileged, even so, it is an "extra" in too many instances, and one in which everyone should be able to partake, not just those that are in conformity with, a general idea of what female looks like..
Within the queer context, its NOT such a good thing, and many people have already mentioned this. Yep,, I too tire of coming out over and over.. to groups people etc..
Actually , most of the masculine appearing woman I know, have also been hot on, and although they are usually pretty surprised, its a real example of the sexist way society operates..

[Diva]

Well.

Some of these posts have made me cry. And they have made me think. And they have pissed me off. And they have given me the courage to say the following....

I came out later than some ~ I was 36. I'm not sure why I landed in Dallas, but I did. My future partner, with some mutual friends who wanted us to meet, saw me first and said, "She's not a lesbian! She's somebody's MOTHER!"

At first, I want You to know, I was incredulous at best. What???

Well....from that point on, I began to notice that we were always stared at/glared at in public. I hated that, but soon, I learned to stare them down because, by God, I wanted them to know that *I* was a lesbian, TOO, dammit!

And there is privilege coming out of every pore, even now. These days, financially, I guess I would be considered poor, but I have an upper~middle class mentality. I grew up in a white collar household, though my parents were both very frugal. I don't have to worry about going into the bathroom....there are never raised eyebrows there. And, like Merrick, the thought of having to 'steel oneself' is a foreign thought to me. I can't even imagine, though I know it is a reality.

But now, I am reading that the GOP ~ for their convention (in Texas, I'm sad to say) ~ has made their platform known, in that they will 'officially' state that homosexuality should be punished with incarceration .....that marriage should only take place between a "natural man and a natural woman"....and that anyone who performs a marriage for anyone other than those 2 folks will also subject themselves to incarceration.

And in seeing that this morning, I felt as thought it was now time (past time, actually) for me to flush my privilege down my Queer Toilet and scream very loudly against THEIR privilege, which takes away mine and those I love.

[Diva]

Jeez, I hope ANY of that made sense....in reading it over again, it seems disjointed at best....my apologies....I have a bazillion thoughts bouncing all around in my brain on this subject......one post just won't cover it all.....

My heart's in the right place....whether my brain is or not..... :|

[Kätzchen]

Well.

Some of these posts have made me cry. And they have made me think. And they have pissed me off. And they have given me the courage to say the following....

I came out later than some ~ I was 36. I'm not sure why I landed in Dallas, but I did. My future partner, with some mutual friends who wanted us to meet, saw me first and said, "She's not a lesbian! She's somebody's MOTHER!"

At first, I want You to know, I was incredulous at best. What???

Well....from that point on, I began to notice that we were always stared at/glared at in public. I hated that, but soon, I learned to stare them down because, by God, I wanted them to know that *I* was a lesbian, TOO, dammit!

And there is privilege coming out of every pore, even now. These days, financially, I guess I would be considered poor, but I have an upper~middle class mentality. I grew up in a white collar household, though my parents were both very frugal. I don't have to worry about going into the bathroom....there are never raised eyebrows there. And, like Merrick, the thought of having to 'steel oneself' is a foreign thought to me. I can't even imagine, though I know it is a reality.

But now, I am reading that the GOP ~ for their convention (in Texas, I'm sad to say) ~ has made their platform known, in that they will 'officially' state that homosexuality should be punished with incarceration .....that marriage should only take place between a "natural man and a natural woman"....and that anyone who performs a marriage for anyone other than those 2 folks will also subject themselves to incarceration.

And in seeing that this morning, I felt as thought it was now time (past time, actually) for me to flush my privilege down my Queer Toilet and scream very loudly against THEIR privilege, which takes away mine and those I love.




DIVA, do you mind if I use your thoughts as a segueway for mine?

Your last paragraph above, comes closest to what's been on my mind about "privilege."

In my mind, privilege finds its roots in the idea that who we are, what we do, how we live, what systems of beliefs and values we own are at risk when it comes to whether we are accepted by others or choose to accept others into our lives. We (the general "we") experience privilege when we find ourselves granted the favor of social acceptance. But at what cost do we accept that privilege???

And that's just it - the cost factor - when it comes down to how I make decisions about whether or not I experience privilege or align myself with others who might believe similarly to how I might make sense of my world or the world at large or am willing to accept privilege in all its shape-shifting forms.

At what cost am I willing to experience privilege if the end-goal results in minimizing or marginalizing the identity, lifestyle or political gems that comprise who each of us are individually as people who long to find community that is willing to embrace us for who we are?

It's complicated, this thing called "privilege."

I want to say that I would be strong enough on my own and not be in need of being granted a particular construct of what privilege can mean. What I am trying to say is that, when privilege comes knocking at my "door" - there's always the risk that a person may have to compromise their views, their identity, their anything and sometimes I am not all that willing to compromise - even if it falls under the rubric of finding common interests that might facilate a larger-scaled social model of acceptance of that which is not all that common.


In other words, the term "Privilege" (to me) means a particular form of inequity and I'm not so sure how equitable privilege will ever be when it comes down to the cost of accepting privilege if it means that I will never be accepted unless I do "X, Y & Z" to earn favor (the privilege) to be me.

I'm not sure if I have conveyed all that is on my mind about privilege, but I remain open to dialogue and discussion of how we perceive what privilege means to each of us in this community.

~ALK
:candle::candle::candle:

[HoneyedChrysanthemum]

even if i didn't look Dykey queer, i'd still look queer (odd). i have extremely short hair; i dress eccentrically; i don't talk like the people around here; i wear strange jewelry; i read books in public *GASP* ,and they are weird books, not romances or chicklit (nothing wrong with those, just not my cup of tea; i carry a mug of char around with me; i mutter to myself in strange languages! oh, yes, i am queer indeed!
i've never had the "privilege" of passing for "normal" ever, just by virtue of being who i am. i'm a tomboy femme who sometimes looks like an adoledcent kid. i've even had kids call out to me, "hey, are you a grown-up or a kid?" i sometimes have to think on that one. i'm a 49 yr-old femme who can pass in some of my clothes as a teenage boy! but hey, take a look at how i gesture, walk, or talk, and you'll know i'm a grrl!
my world id is a queer, queer world! *grin*
pres :moonstars:

[Nat]

There's another cost factor with femmes - not all femmes but those who wear makeup, dye our hair or buy product to manage our hair, keep up with style, shoes, hosiery, lingerie, etc. There are butches who might spend just as much on butch style, but I would guess makeup alone adds an expense to many a femme's gender presentation. (some butches also wear makeup too). There are issues of expensive surgeries and medical treatment among some butches and many transmen which would easily outstrip cost of beauty/style products, but then I don't know the numbers when it comes to femme cosmetic surgeries.

I would also think there is more pressure to look younger when one is femme, as age differences between butches and femmes often seem to go in the younger femme / older butch direction (or is this a misperception on my part? Perhaps a poll is necessary). So there might be more femme buying of anti-aging products.

Even when butches or transguys and femmes are around the same age, femmes may tend to feel that pressure as young butches and some transguys often look super young just because of the female-desinated-body masculine presentation can translate this way. I know I have been on one date where my date was interpreted by a flirty waitress as my high school aged son rather than my date - which I found rather irritating at the age of 28 (he was 23).

[Passionaria]

Femme privilege? As many have suggested : privileged compared to what? `Compared to Butches when it comes to cultural acceptance by the dominant society? Because of my dress, my style and mannerisms I do not have to pay a "social toll" for being outside of the "norm" when it come to what is expected of women. Even within my own family, and with my children, I know it is easier for them to accept my GAYNESS because I look feminine. I only rock the boat a little on first glance. It is defiantly easier, but I am not sure I would call it a privilege.

We are spurring a cultural revolution over one of the most deeply ingrained aspects of our society. Gender identification. A 2-3 year old child is aware of gender and the implications of it. Societies are built on, and run on the roles of these ingrained identities.(Weather of not the belief is true or accurate) So how can we expect bending societies gender expectations not to be painful? To many we shake the core beliefs that they have built their lives on. We are gender revolutionaries, and Butches and TG's are on the front line. I think as a group we need to be very real about what we are doing. We are not victims, we are revolutionaries. And yes I see it is a privilege to support and love those who are on the front lines, our Butches. Where would they be without our love??????

:cat: Pashi

I_0sg0XDfmg

[Medusa]

Nat kinda touched on this with an earlier post.

Age and Privilege in the Femme world.

Are younger Femmes more privileged in the B/F community than older Femmes? Or is that just an age thing in general?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Nat kinda touched on this with an earlier post.

Age and Privilege in the Femme world.

Are younger Femmes more privileged in the B/F community than older Femmes? Or is that just an age thing in general?

I feel sexism gives them perceived privilege, Nat touched on it with the often older butch younger femme. I do think that it depends on the non femme person though, if they are valuing younger to better that's on them. I personally don't have and have not had an issue growing older as far as dating or fucking. I've enjoyed the company of younger femmes and older because when together and not around a *dating pool* of opportunities femmes bond and talk and share regardless of age. When in a group of Femmes it's really amazing how we all come together, you may have an occasional person who is not there for the bonding with femmes but more on the look out for a future dating prospect but I think those people weed themselves out quite early. So no I don't think they are more privileged per say though I do think they are more free to express themselves and have more ways to access and meet up other queers like themselves. I could be wrong though:|

[Julie]

Nat kinda touched on this with an earlier post.

Age and Privilege in the Femme world.

Are younger Femmes more privileged in the B/F community than older Femmes? Or is that just an age thing in general?

Maybe I am alone in my thoughts...

I feel (for myself) that I have WAY more privilege now as an older femme (gonna be a crone soon) then a younger femme. I have EXPERIENCE.

I have no doubt misogyny plays heavy in our community. Older butches lusting after younger femmes. But my internal self esteem knows and believes... What I got going on with this body, mind and soul and the years I have lived and the scars I have endured...

I have even experienced reverse ageism. I would NEVER date a young butch. Hell NO! What would we possibly discuss? LOL - see. Poor younger butches are shunned by older femmes like me.

Give me a seasoned butch with history and the know how - and I am a very happy older femme.

The only privilege I feel a younger femme has over me, is time. She has more time to live her life and experience so many more years of love and love making than I do. She has the privilege of making babies if she should choose. She has the privilege of wearing what she wants, that I (my choice) as an older femme would not wear. She has the opportunities to change her career over and over again, whereas - I am 50, and I know the work place is not as interested in me, as perhaps they might be in someone younger.

Julie

[dixie]

Maybe I am alone in my thoughts...

I feel (for myself) that I have WAY more privilege now as an older femme (gonna be a crone soon) then a younger femme. I have EXPERIENCE.

I have no doubt misogyny plays heavy in our community. Older butches lusting after younger femmes. But my internal self esteem knows and believes... What I got going on with this body, mind and soul and the years I have lived and the scars I have endured...

I have even experienced reverse ageism. I would NEVER date a young butch. Hell NO! What would we possibly discuss? LOL - see. Poor younger butches are shunned by older femmes like me.

Give me a seasoned butch with history and the know how - and I am a very happy older femme.

The only privilege I feel a younger femme has over me, is time. She has more time to live her life and experience so many more years of love and love making than I do. She has the privilege of making babies if she should choose. She has the privilege of wearing what she wants, that I (my choice) as an older femme would not wear. She has the opportunities to change her career over and over again, whereas - I am 50, and I know the work place is not as interested in me, as perhaps they might be in someone younger.

Julie

I agree with this. For me, I feel that older femmes do usually have more advantages such as experience, respect, etc. Younger femmes may have more time for opportunities, but are sometimes viewed as "less than" or not taken as seriously, based solely upon age.

[jelli]

Well.

Some of these posts have made me cry. And they have made me think. And they have pissed me off. And they have given me the courage to say the following....

I came out later than some ~ I was 36. I'm not sure why I landed in Dallas, but I did. My future partner, with some mutual friends who wanted us to meet, saw me first and said, "She's not a lesbian! She's somebody's MOTHER!"

At first, I want You to know, I was incredulous at best. What???

Well....from that point on, I began to notice that we were always stared at/glared at in public. I hated that, but soon, I learned to stare them down because, by God, I wanted them to know that *I* was a lesbian, TOO, dammit!

And there is privilege coming out of every pore, even now. These days, financially, I guess I would be considered poor, but I have an upper~middle class mentality. I grew up in a white collar household, though my parents were both very frugal. I don't have to worry about going into the bathroom....there are never raised eyebrows there. And, like Merrick, the thought of having to 'steel oneself' is a foreign thought to me. I can't even imagine, though I know it is a reality.

But now, I am reading that the GOP ~ for their convention (in Texas, I'm sad to say) ~ has made their platform known, in that they will 'officially' state that homosexuality should be punished with incarceration .....that marriage should only take place between a "natural man and a natural woman"....and that anyone who performs a marriage for anyone other than those 2 folks will also subject themselves to incarceration.

And in seeing that this morning, I felt as thought it was now time (past time, actually) for me to flush my privilege down my Queer Toilet and scream very loudly against THEIR privilege, which takes away mine and those I love.




{{{{{Diva}}}}}

[Medusa]

I agree with this. For me, I feel that older femmes do usually have more advantages such as experience, respect, etc. Younger femmes may have more time for opportunities, but are sometimes viewed as "less than" or not taken as seriously, based solely upon age.


Dixieboo!

I hear you and experienced some of this when I was a 23-year-old Femme first signing up on the Dash site. I was head-patted by lots of older Femmes because "How could I possibly know anything about life" and also by older Butches who thought of me as a "party girl" or whatever.

I did, however, feel that I had privilege in the dating pool as a younger Femme because I felt like many Butches in my orbit objectified younger Femmes as sexier/more sexual or whatever. But I dunno if that was such a privilege, only being seen for sexual value. IMO now, not so much.

I have been witness to older Femmes being called things like "crusty" or having insults hurled about like "who'd want to fuck her old ass?" so I do think there are huge elements of ageism when it comes to us...but more than anything, this is residual from the ageism in the world at large and our community has proven that we are not immune to it.

I always try to keep in mind that there are Femmes older than me who "know things" and also Femmes younger than me who "know things" and that all of those experiences are valid, valued, and essential!

[Julie]

I believe the bottom line falls on ourselves.
We can allow ageism, sexism, misogyny and all the other negatives to influence our lives.

None of us are better than the other... As Medusa said (without quoting) We all bring something valuable to the table.

It is my hope always - that all of us are empowered by the Femme's we are and by one another. That we do NOT ever allow someone to get away with dis-empowering us.

And I challenge any person to call me "crusty." Perhaps though, it will be a great day in my life, when I have this descriptor thrown on me. It will mean, I have lived.

Julie

[princessbelle]

I believe the bottom line falls on ourselves.
We can allow ageism, sexism, misogyny and all the other negatives to influence our lives.

None of us are better than the other... As Medusa said (without quoting) We all bring something valuable to the table.

It is my hope always - that all of us are empowered by the Femme's we are and by one another. That we do NOT ever allow someone to get away with dis-empowering us.

And I challenge any person to call me "crusty." Perhaps though, it will be a great day in my life, when I have this descriptor thrown on me. It will mean, I have lived.

Julie

Yes!!!

I have a hope as well. I sincerely hope that the young femmes do have more privilege than i had.

My hope is that *our* existance in this world is way more than self appropriating. I hope that we have, even in some small way, smoothed the path, added an additional stone on the yellow brick road, attended a gathering standing proud to be a femme, forged an accepting thought from others, signed at least one petition for human/femme/any ID's rights that actually helped broaden the world's acceptance. I hope that we have some how made the journey a tiny bit easier, a little more obvious that we exist, and have shined a little light toward the beautiful ID of femmes for the younger generation.

For all of the hard times *we* have shared, the fights for identifications and self-recognition, standing proud with our brothers/sisters and being heard, it was worth it for ourselves as well as providing a beacon for the young, ever evolving femmes.

Just as the ones before us have done and just as these femmes will do for the next generation.

That is my hope.

[CherylNYC]

Yes!!!

I have a hope as well. I sincerely hope that the young femmes do have more privilege than i had.

My hope is that *our* existance in this world is way more than self appropriating. I hope that we have, even in some small way, smoothed the path, added an additional stone on the yellow brick road, attended a gathering standing proud to be a femme, forged an accepting thought from others, signed at least one petition for human/femme/any ID's rights that actually helped broaden the world's acceptance. I hope that we have some how made the journey a tiny bit easier, a little more obvious that we exist, and have shined a little light toward the beautiful ID of femmes for the younger generation.

For all of the hard times *we* have shared, the fights for identifications and self-recognition, standing proud with our brothers/sisters and being heard, it was worth it for ourselves as well as providing a beacon for the young, ever evolving femmes.

Just as the ones before us have done and just as these femmes will do for the next generation.

That is my hope.

I was thinking about this very thing just the other day after shopping in a vintage clothing store with a femme friend. We found a fluttery pink chiffon skirt with pink spangles, and it was her size. She really wanted to buy it, and we had a fascinating discussion about how very transgressive it would be for her to wear it. We called it 'the skirt one must not wear'. This skirt would have been sooooo off limits to any lesbian when I was in my twenties. Had I shown up to any of our events in such a thing I would have been the object of derision, and I probably wouldn't have gotten laid for the rest of the decade. Even though my friend is 10 years younger than I, she's certainly felt the judgement of many a lesbian for her interest in all things girlie. Not to the extent I would have of course, but enough. She ended up not buying the skirt, but only because she couldn't find a blouse that would match. When she put it back on the rack she commented that a 20 something femme with no idea that the skirt represented anything or was in any way transgressive would happily buy it and wear it for her Daddy, conflict-free.

It took me a day or two to realize that this reality for many young femmes, that they can express themselves without the judgement and conflict those of my generation experienced, is an awesome gift that we've given to them. I don't personally care whether or not any one of them recognises it as such. I'm quite certain that I took many things for granted when I was in my 20s, and those advances had been purchased in blood by my forebears.

I'm not sure what this has to do with femme privilege. Probably not much at all. My point is that whether or not we're privileged over butches, or any other stripe of our communities, we still face and fight our own battles. This is one battle that seems to have had a wonderful outcome.

[Quintease]

I didn't have a privileged life. I'm privileged as I'm white, I'm pretty, I pass as middle-class, no one questions my intelligence (except older white heterosexual males), no one bars my way as I walk into the bathroom and most believe me to be better educated than I am.

I don't consider 'passing' as straight to be a privilege aside from the bathroom privilege it accords me. I definitely didn't consider appearing 'straight' to be a privilege when I was trying to get laid on the gay scene. Nor is being pretty much of a privilege when you're young, gay and fending off misogynistic male attention.

I didn't have a privileged life at all, but I accept that in many ways I have been very lucky.

[Reader]

Just a few thoughts. One cannot fake being a femme, nor can one fake being a butch.

Take a femme, throw her in a flannel shirt, dirty jeans and work boots and she will still scream femme. Take a butch, tie her down and put a dress on her and she will still scream butch, no? I know that if I was forced into a dress I would look like a straight man pretending to be a transvestite.

A femme friend once said that she felt a sense of femme anti- privilege, or disadvantage for lack of a better word, because she often saw butches in the public giving each other the “hey dude” acknowledgment look.

She said it was hard for her to get butches to ever ask her out unless she was at a gay event, etc. She said it was a hard to get butches to pay attention to her in public and that other femmes had the same issue. This gave me pause.

So, like an idiot, as an experiment I began to ask women who seemed to be flirting with me (in non-gay places) out for coffee, just to see what would happen. Every single time I got a stunned look and was politely turned down. LOL. Now, sure , maybe I am beastly in every way and that was why I was turned down each time, but I sort of doubt it. I think the women were just straight. After being turned down so often in non-gay places I can see why femmes have a tough time getting butch attention.

I suspect each has its advantages or privileges, and the opposite.

[Vivacious1]

I really don't know if I am completely on track here, but when I was reading I couldn't help thinking of some of the experiences that I have had as a femminine woman. The things I do know are that pretty things make me happy. The fancier the dress the happier I am. I feel like a child at Christmas and my eyes light up when I see something beautiful. I so enjoy the feminine side of me and I indulge it as often and as much as I can. (on a budget) lol.
There is alot of happiness for me being femme and truly living as the woman that I am.
However, that is not to say that there are no negative things that are involved. I have been shunned by other femme women. There are the incidences of partners friends whispering to my partner "Are you sure you wanna deal with this, she is high maintainence" as if this was an insult to who I am. My own family teases me because I dress up when going to dinner. My personality is quite down to earth if given the chance. Why judge the cover? I just wanna be me. I have experienced the defending of a partner when they are entering a women's restroom.... I have felt invisible a good part of my adult life. My last relationship (which was 7 yrs) ended in part because I was only a supporting role, a trophy (per se) to have on hys arm...
Privledged, possibly... I would prefer to think of it as we all have our own burdens. I don't know if mine are bigger than hers or hys all I know is that throughout all of these experiences I have grown stronger and learned to be okay with who I am, how I dress and what makes me me.

[Angeltoes]

Just a few thoughts. One cannot fake being a femme, nor can one fake being a butch.

Take a femme, throw her in a flannel shirt, dirty jeans and work boots and she will still scream femme. Take a butch, tie her down and put a dress on her and she will still scream butch, no? I know that if I was forced into a dress I would look like a straight man pretending to be a transvestite.

A femme friend once said that she felt a sense of femme anti- privilege, or disadvantage for lack of a better word, because she often saw butches in the public giving each other the “hey dude” acknowledgment look.

She said it was hard for her to get butches to ever ask her out unless she was at a gay event, etc. She said it was a hard to get butches to pay attention to her in public and that other femmes had the same issue. This gave me pause.

So, like an idiot, as an experiment I began to ask women who seemed to be flirting with me (in non-gay places) out for coffee, just to see what would happen. Every single time I got a stunned look and was politely turned down. LOL. Now, sure , maybe I am beastly in every way and that was why I was turned down each time, but I sort of doubt it. I think the women were just straight. After being turned down so often in non-gay places I can see why femmes have a tough time getting butch attention.

I suspect each has its advantages or privileges, and the opposite.

True, but what about eye-contact first? If you lock eyes first, then you pretty much know how she feels. Around here butches seem to glance and wait for you to notice them. If you do they have the confidence to give that little smile and then if you wait around long enough you get approached.

[Reader]

Just a few thoughts. One cannot fake being a femme, nor can one fake being a butch.

Take a femme, throw her in a flannel shirt, dirty jeans and work boots and she will still scream femme. Take a butch, tie her down and put a dress on her and she will still scream butch, no? I know that if I was forced into a dress I would look like a straight man pretending to be a transvestite.

A femme friend once said that she felt a sense of femme anti- privilege, or disadvantage for lack of a better word, because she often saw butches in the public giving each other the “hey dude” acknowledgment look.

She said it was hard for her to get butches to ever ask her out unless she was at a gay event, etc. She said it was a hard to get butches to pay attention to her in public and that other femmes had the same issue. This gave me pause.

So, like an idiot, as an experiment I began to ask women who seemed to be flirting with me (in non-gay places) out for coffee, just to see what would happen. Every single time I got a stunned look and was politely turned down. LOL. Now, sure , maybe I am beastly in every way and that was why I was turned down each time, but I sort of doubt it. I think the women were just straight. After being turned down so often in non-gay places I can see why femmes have a tough time getting butch attention.

I suspect each has its advantages or privileges, and the opposite.

True, but what about eye-contact first? If you lock eyes first, then you pretty much know how she feels. Around here butches seem to glance and wait for you to notice them. If you do they have the confidence to give that little smile and then if you wait around long enough you get approached.


Well, I hear you about the eye-contact thing. Perhaps in NJ it is different.

About two weeks ago I was in Dunkin Donuts and it was late at night and two nurses in scrubs were getting coffee. I was next to them getting my own coffee, when the dark-haired one began chatting me up. I chatted back. She was kind of nice and seemed like she could have been a femme lesbian, but it was hard to tell since she and her friend were both wearing scrubs.

I got the feeling she was flirting with me. Normally, I am sort of dense about such things, but I have been lacking a femme in my life, missing that pleasant femme energy a lot lately and so I am more aware of its absence, I guess.

She and her friend received their stuff and I said to her, "I'd be happy to get that for you ladies", holding out a bill in their server's direction. She said "Oh, uh,..." and she stammered and looked at her friend. I added, "Might I get those coffees for you?" She finally said, "Oh, no, no. Thanks anyway. We have it." I said "OK", paid for my coffee and left.

Now, I could interpret that interaction in a few ways. My best friend, a femme by the way, made a disparaging remark about straight women who enjoy flirting with butches when I recounted this tale to her. Maybe she was just a friendly woman who was not flirting at all. Who knows?

Until I am coupled, I will continue, on those rare occasions, to make friendly gestures to women who appear to flirt with me in public.

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Maybe she was flirting, and was confused or put off how that equaled getting her coffee payed for. Maybe next time slip her your number unnoticed.

[tantalizingfemme]

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public.

How do you know you were shot down? She said no, you paid and left.

She could have very well been flirting because she was interested, but maybe she felt uncomfortable because she was with a co-worker/friend. You may have been able to continue to chat while she was waiting. You don't really know for sure whether you were shot down or not.

I personally don't allow anyone I don't know buy my coffee or anything else for that matter, even if it was a hot butch and I was single. Makes me uncomfortable; nothing personal against anyone.

What do you think you would have done if she said yes? Would that say to you that she is interested?

[Toughy]

Maybe she was flirting, and was confused or put off how that equaled getting her coffee payed for. Maybe next time slip her your number unnoticed.

calling them 'ladies' might not be a good idea either.......

I don't let random folks I am talking to in a line buy me coffee or anything else...........

[The_Lady_Snow]

calling them 'ladies' might not be a good idea either.......

I don't let random folks I am talking to in a line buy me coffee or anything else...........



Toughy, that's a whoooole fucking other thread I tell ya!

[Toughy]

Toughy, that's a whoooole fucking other thread I tell ya!

ain't it the truth.......

[*Anya*]

Well, I hear you about the eye-contact thing. Perhaps in NJ it is different.

About two weeks ago I was in Dunkin Donuts and it was late at night and two nurses in scrubs were getting coffee. I was next to them getting my own coffee, when the dark-haired one began chatting me up. I chatted back. She was kind of nice and seemed like she could have been a femme lesbian, but it was hard to tell since she and her friend were both wearing scrubs.

I got the feeling she was flirting with me. Normally, I am sort of dense about such things, but I have been lacking a femme in my life, missing that pleasant femme energy a lot lately and so I am more aware of its absence, I guess.

She and her friend received their stuff and I said to her, "I'd be happy to get that for you ladies", holding out a bill in their server's direction. She said "Oh, uh,..." and she stammered and looked at her friend. I added, "Might I get those coffees for you?" She finally said, "Oh, no, no. Thanks anyway. We have it." I said "OK", paid for my coffee and left.

Now, I could interpret that interaction in a few ways. My best friend, a femme by the way, made a disparaging remark about straight women who enjoy flirting with butches when I recounted this tale to her. Maybe she was just a friendly woman who was not flirting at all. Who knows?

Until I am coupled, I will continue, on those rare occasions, to make friendly gestures to women who appear to flirt with me in public.

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat.

Goodlooking, hot, very sweet-appearing butch, or not; no stranger buys me anything.

Very nicely, however, I would have said: "Thanks very much but I have this". If said butch was pleasant about it, I might have said, "But I have time to sit and drink some of my coffee with you, if you would like to chat".

Would you have said, OK or "I would like that"?

[Angeltoes]

I'm curious as to why people feel uncomfortable about accepting a cup of coffee from a stranger. I have bought for and accepted various things from strangers.

[Dance-with-me]

Just a few thoughts. One cannot fake being a femme, nor can one fake being a butch.

Take a femme, throw her in a flannel shirt, dirty jeans and work boots and she will still scream femme.
I had to chuckle at this, remembering my pathetic attempts to do the flannel-shirt short-haired dyke routine. Maybe the dangly earrings were the problem?!?

Someone else in this thread commented about the issues the older femmes faces in the lesbian community. I started going to "lesbians united" meetings in 1979 in Dayton Ohio, and would go there right after work wearing a dress, with long hair and nothing at all about me that (to them) said "lesbian" and they didn't hesitate to tell me so - sometimes with a level of sheer meanness that makes me so amazed that I didn't just run away and stay away.

So to take it back to the point about privilege, I really do get that from the bigger picture, femmes do enjoy the privilege of "passing" but I would challenge that as a privilege. Let's put it a different way: Would I consider it a privilege that I "pass" as a Jew and people presume I'm Christian? Would I consider it a privilege if my biracial granddaughter "passed" as white? I don't know that passing as a privileged class of people is in itself a privilege FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL. There is an advantage to being able to walk into a room and have people know something about you that's an important part of your identity without your having to say a word. I can only come out by deliberate action: Telling someone that I'm gay walking on the arm of a handsome butch, for example. There's very little feeling of privilege in having to always correct people's assumptions of being straight and Christian.

[Toughy]

I'm curious as to why people feel uncomfortable about accepting a cup of coffee from a stranger. I have bought for and accepted various things from strangers.

cuz my momma didn't raise no fool.........laughin.........

don't take candy from strangers........

[Bèsame*]

It has come to pass unfornately that strangers, are not who they portray themselves to be. As much as we/I want to believe they are kind, no one really knows what lurks behind their motives. Most of us see and feel the flags, but some do not.I'm curious as to why people feel uncomfortable about accepting a cup of coffee from a stranger. I have bought for and accepted various things from strangers.

[Angeltoes]

True, but I grew up a long way from Boise, Idaho in a really harsh environment and have yet to regret buying or accepting something so small from a stranger. If I'm chatting on line with someone and say 'I'll get this' and pay for their coffee it's just a simple gesture to be nice. So if I would do it to be nice, I can't see why others wouldn't.

It has come to pass unfornately that strangers, are not who they portray themselves to be. As much as we/I want to believe they are kind, no one really knows what lurks behind their motives. Most of us see and feel the flags, but some do not.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm curious as to why people feel uncomfortable about accepting a cup of coffee from a stranger. I have bought for and accepted various things from strangers.



I like my boundaries to be crystal clear with folks especially strangers, it's unfortunate that sometimes if not most of the time that when something is purchased it'll equate in their mind one "owes" them time, your attention, your gratitude.. *My* time is valuable, certainly worth much moré than a beverage.

That's how *I* roll not everyone may share this particular line of thought.:)

[Kätzchen]

I like my boundaries to be crystal clear with folks especially strangers, it's unfortunate that sometimes if not most of the time that when something is purchased it'll equate in their mind one "owes" them time, your attention, your gratitude.. *My* time is valuable, certainly worth much moré than a beverage.

That's how *I* roll not everyone may share this particular line of thought.:)


Just to add to this line of thought:

This is how *I* roll, too.

Angeltoes, as you grow on your journey these days, you will find that you tinker with your own system of boundaries and you may even find that several experiences of your own, now or in the future, will sharpen your focus on where your boundaries will need shoring up or expansion - on any given day or time or even more specific, as defined by an event that is unique to your own experience.

My boundaries in the past were pretty open. Not so much anymore but to add specificity to my statement: I remain open minded but govern my boundaries judiciously with each event or circumstance that presents the opportunity to fine tune my boundary system... because this is how my stone rolls these days.

[Angeltoes]

But I do have clear boundaries. We're still talking about a cup of coffee, aren't we??

That's how you roll and that's fine. But personally, I do NOT think my time is worth more than the price of beverage because unless I'm working, my time is not for sale. I give it freely or not at all.

Just to add to this line of thought:

This is how *I* roll, too.

Angeltoes, as you grow on your journey these days, you will find that you tinker with your own system of boundaries and you may even find that several experiences of your own, now or in the future, will sharpen your focus on where your boundaries will need shoring up or expansion - on any given day or time or even more specific, as defined by an event that is unique to your own experience.

My boundaries in the past were pretty open. Not so much anymore but to add specificity to my statement: I remain open minded but govern my boundaries judiciously with each event or circumstance that presents the opportunity to fine tune my boundary system... because this is how my stone rolls these days.

[Kätzchen]

But I do have clear boundaries. We're still talking about a cup of coffee, aren't we??

That's how you roll and that's fine. But personally, I do NOT think my time is worth more than the price of beverage because unless I'm working, my time is not for sale. I give it freely or not at all.


My response was a direct response to your original question of:
I'm curious as to why people feel uncomfortable about accepting a cup of coffee from a stranger. I have bought for and accepted various things from strangers (Angeltoes).

Three other members besides myself posted in response to your original question for a total of 4 other perspectives of various experience in direct answer to your statement in question.

Accepting a cup of coffee, whether it be from a complete stranger to someone we barely know to someone we know better than as just a stranger (the aforementioned are examples of a particular context), come with types of intended or unintended consequences, which we may or may not be fully aware of. Hence why you got 4 offerings of perspective of various degrees.

Clear boundaries and valuation of time and other sets of items associated with the "cup of coffee" scenario you spoke of, are clearly not as simple as one might think.

[Reader]

Hi all. OK, I will try and answer some of the posts.

First of all, not everyone is offended by being called a "lady". Sure, in theory, I could staunchly go around using terms deemed acceptable by the current intellectual ruling class feminist theorists, et al, but, I was just chatting in line late at night at Dunkin Donuts unexpectedly. "Ladies" is what I said. They neither blanched, nor fumed. Just sayin'.

To me, giving someone my number directly seems even more forward than giving a waitress a five for two cups of coffee. But, maybe they were offended. If so, then even if she/they were dykes, we would not have been suitably matched even as pals. I am fairly laid back in many ways. As some of you know, I am considered non-'pc' by some folks, gauche by others. For example, I have been known to take my own spinach to Chinese food restaurants and ask them to sautee it because they didn't serve it on their menu. This could mortify some dining companions.

If the woman had said "Why, thank you, that's very nice of you. Might you join us?", I certainly would have joined them for the coffee and chatted for a few minutes. Offering to pay for a beverage certainly does not seem as ominous to me as it seems to be to some of you, but I don't know what kind of experiences you've had.

I've been at plenty of bars when folks buy rounds or single drinks for me. It never felt odd. But, I can understand if some folks don't like it.

I often pay for my companions when dining out, because there were times when others paid for me. I honestly never feel that anyone "owes" me a thing just because I happen to pay for us to do something. I OFFER. I hang out with folks who do not have a sense of entitlement, who do not EXPECT me to pay. My pals pay for me, too, sometimes and if they don't pay for me they do other things which are even better, like COOK for me and then wash the dishes...who can beat that! Who can beat having your girlfriend cook food, dish it up, serve it to you as you sit on her couch and then have her take the dishes away and wash them, too? I will gladly pay for dinner out to get that treatment at home. However, the second I think someone feels entitled to such treatment or is using me I will stop treating them well. I am always appreciative when a woman does things for me and I always feel appreciated, now, that is, when I do things for people. Otherwise, I do not do them. I simply S-T-O-P doing them if I feel used.

I am not on this board as much lately, but I'm glad I saw this thread is active again. Let me also just add that as a butch I do possess butchness. I AM a butch. I will bring a woman flowers. I will remark that she looks pretty. I will delight in her femininity as it defines itself and reveals itself in my world. I like femmes. I do think there is "femme privilege" and I support that for the most part.

[aishah]

If the woman had said "Why, thank you, that's very nice of you. Might you join us?", I certainly would have joined them for the coffee and chatted for a few minutes. Offering to pay for a beverage certainly does not seem as ominous to me as it seems to be to some of you, but I don't know what kind of experiences you've had.

I've been at plenty of bars when folks buy rounds or single drinks for me. It never felt odd. But, I can understand if some folks don't like it.

I often pay for my companions when dining out, because there were times when others paid for me. I honestly never feel that anyone "owes" me a thing just because I happen to pay for us to do something. I OFFER. I hang out with folks who do not have a sense of entitlement, who do not EXPECT me to pay. My pals pay for me, too, sometimes and if they don't pay for me they do other things which are even better, like COOK for me and then wash the dishes...who can beat that! Who can beat having your girlfriend cook food, dish it up, serve it to you as you sit on her couch and then have her take the dishes away and wash them, too? I will gladly pay for dinner out to get that treatment at home. However, the second I think someone feels entitled to such treatment or is using me I will stop treating them well. I am always appreciative when a woman does things for me and I always feel appreciated, now, that is, when I do things for people. Otherwise, I do not do them. I simply S-T-O-P doing them if I feel used.

i've had a lot of experiences with masculine-of-center folks who felt entitled to my time and attention because i am a femme woman, period. mainly cisgendered men, but not only. that's why i'm wary of strangers, especially strangers doing nice things for me. i'm extremely friendly to everyone and i like to believe the best of people, but my experience has been more often than not that masculine-of-center folks have taken that to mean that they can invade my space physically, pressure me to go out with them, pressure me for my number, etc. often if i say no, i'm completely ignored and they refuse to stop pressuring me or they get angry and threaten me. that is why i personally understand the wariness to accept free cups of coffee, free drinks at the bar, or what have you.

obviously not all strangers are like that, but i'd say about half or more of the time, i end up in a very uncomfortable situation. so, you know. i'm still an extremely friendly person, but it has made me very wary, and i completely understand why some people might not be friendly, or might appear standoffish, or might not accept a drink from a stranger or acquaintance.

for me, buying something for someone i know and have an understood relationship with where there are not implied expectations or we're cool like that is a totally different story. i buy things for friends and they buy things for me all the time.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Clear boundaries and valuation of time and other sets of items associated with the "cup of coffee" scenario you spoke of, are clearly not as simple as one might think.

I believe often times it can be a simple gesture and others may read too much into it and miss out on the kindness of strangers.

Granted I've been on the receiving end too when it was meant to gain more.

[Toughy]

I could staunchly go around using terms deemed acceptable by the current intellectual ruling class feminist theorists,

Reader do you really think this comment was necessary? It feels snarky in my mind.
--------------
As to ladies or or girls or ma'am or miss or mister or other gender specific words.......some like it and some don't.........I err on the side of just saying 'Hi how is it going' vs 'Hi ladies, how is it going?'......the ladies thing is totally un-necessary when addressing strangers and that is my nickel's worth.

It just feels creepy if someone I do not know at all.......a complete stranger offers to buy anything for me. If it's someone I see regularly in a store then it's all good. If someone I don't know is short some change in the grocery check-out, generally I will dig in my pocket to help them out and appreciate it if someone does the same for me. I think of it as paying forward.

so as you can see my feelings are totally muddy around this.....

[Martina]

Let me also just add that as a butch I do possess butchness. I AM a butch. I will bring a woman flowers. I will remark that she looks pretty. I will delight in her femininity as it defines itself and reveals itself in my world. I like femmes. I do think there is "femme privilege" and I support that for the most part.

You get that is not what femme privilege means? Femme privilege is what we get from passing as straight. It means we aren't read as gender non-conforming and don't receive the hostility that folks who do receive. It's nothing most of us want, and it has nothing to do with receiving flowers from butches or being flattered.

Moreover, BEING butch does not mean bringing women flowers or delighting in femininity. As you know, the world is full of butches who prefer other butches.

[Nomad]

I had to chuckle at this, remembering my pathetic attempts to do the flannel-shirt short-haired dyke routine. Maybe the dangly earrings were the problem?!?

Someone else in this thread commented about the issues the older femmes faces in the lesbian community. I started going to "lesbians united" meetings in 1979 in Dayton Ohio, and would go there right after work wearing a dress, with long hair and nothing at all about me that (to them) said "lesbian" and they didn't hesitate to tell me so - sometimes with a level of sheer meanness that makes me so amazed that I didn't just run away and stay away.

So to take it back to the point about privilege, I really do get that from the bigger picture, femmes do enjoy the privilege of "passing" but I would challenge that as a privilege. Let's put it a different way: Would I consider it a privilege that I "pass" as a Jew and people presume I'm Christian? Would I consider it a privilege if my biracial granddaughter "passed" as white? I don't know that passing as a privileged class of people is in itself a privilege FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL. There is an advantage to being able to walk into a room and have people know something about you that's an important part of your identity without your having to say a word. I can only come out by deliberate action: Telling someone that I'm gay walking on the arm of a handsome butch, for example. There's very little feeling of privilege in having to always correct people's assumptions of being straight and Christian.

(grumbling over a well thought out post that was lost when my computer crashed)

i'm working out some understanding here and you're all cracking my skull open at once so bear with me. (arrggghhhhh! the light! THE LIGHT!!!!)

what i think you're saying Dance, is that privilege can also be a twisted variety of the backhanded compliment because it is also a negation of reality -- that it doesnt have the feeling of a benefit when it diminishes who one is. am i close?

so in THAT context, privilege becomes a double edged sword and someone is going to be hurt no matter which way it swings?

(**disclaimer** i am NOT being the "oh poor me! everyone thinks i benefit because i'm (insert amazingly privileged group word here) and i dont i dont i dont! boo hoo hoo" girl. my statement is meant to indicate that i'm used to thinking of the impact of privilege as a one way street rather than wondering if damage is done no matter what side of the privilege coin one is on.)

another thing that struck me in your observation was the part about being able to walk into a room and have people understand something important about you without having to explain (or justify?) ourselves. this is an example of femme/female invisibility but not a negation of the reality of femme (straight) privilege, yes? as women we are often invisible. as straight femmes and queer femmes both we are often invisible. (i imagine that men who ID as femme are subjected to their own kind of invisibility --- it's wrong to think that the ID word "femme" is one that should be limited to female bodied people, isnt it?)

if the subject at hand were invisibility i would say that i am typically a non-entity and undefined by the normative-minded masses unless i present myself for inspection accompanied by the person who defines me in the eyes of the pigeon-hole types:

if i enter a room with a man, i'm assumed straight.
if i enter with a butch, i'm assumed queer.
if i enter with another femme, we're both invisible or we're considered meat, which is to say that someone there wants to take on the role of defining who we are (slut, conquest, new girl friend, etc) by adding themselves into the picture.

--losing my train of thought-- sorry for the ramble.

i dont know what i meant to say here. maybe just that i saw the difference between the subject of privilege and the subject of invisibility. i imagine that they overlap in some places.

i think i AM privileged in this and many other ways. i pass as straight no matter what i might do to counter that culturally accepted image and i benefit from the assumption that i am straight in that i am not ridiculed or threatened or intimidated for being other than straight. but that's a completely different issue than invisibility.

also, to adopt the 'i'm not privileged because i dont want to pass' stance might probably be just as dismissive as saying 'just because i'm white/a citizen/speak english/etc doesnt mean i'm privileged' wouldnt it? (NOT saying anyone is doing that -- just working out my jumbled thoughts aloud)

thanks for the discussion everyone. looking forward to more enlightenment.

[aishah]

i totally get what you're saying, nomad. and what dance-with-me is saying.

i have privilege because i usually pass as white - i have the privilege of not, for example, automatically being stopped by the police (although i have been for being muslim). or automatically being denied a job.

i also deal with the erasure and colonialist violence inherent in being mixed-race and indigenous. passing as white is partly a function of genocide. it erases my identity and means i often don't fit in either white or poc spaces. but it sure as hell does afford me a lot of privilege in the world in terms of getting through my day to day life.

same with being femme. it really fucking sucks not to be seen for who i am, but i also don't have to worry that someone is going to attack me for my gender presentation when i walk into a bathroom. i don't have to worry that my gender doesn't match my id. i don't have to worry that someone's going to beat me up because they automatically assume i'm queer. (unless i out myself somehow.) that is privilege. that is really really real.

[Femminator]

Sometimes I feel sad that I actually have Femme privilege,and my wife does not have it. We go places, and I see other people stare at her, because she's pretty Butch, and they don't realize that I am with her, so they are quite open with it. I try to show I am with her, to let people know we are an united front, but I get very,very frustrated.

[tantalizingfemme]

I believe often times it can be a simple gesture and others may read too much into it and miss out on the kindness of strangers.


Yes, however the incident we are discussing, Reader offered to buy the women's coffee with the intention of getting something in return or else she wouldn't have said she was "shot down"; Not in an act of kindness towards a stranger. Which feeds into the reason why a lot of us wouldn't accept someone else paying for our coffee.

[Nomad]

Well, I hear you about the eye-contact thing. Perhaps in NJ it is different.

About two weeks ago I was in Dunkin Donuts and it was late at night and two nurses in scrubs were getting coffee. I was next to them getting my own coffee, when the dark-haired one began chatting me up. I chatted back. She was kind of nice and seemed like she could have been a femme lesbian, but it was hard to tell since she and her friend were both wearing scrubs.

I got the feeling she was flirting with me. Normally, I am sort of dense about such things, but I have been lacking a femme in my life, missing that pleasant femme energy a lot lately and so I am more aware of its absence, I guess.

She and her friend received their stuff and I said to her, "I'd be happy to get that for you ladies", holding out a bill in their server's direction. She said "Oh, uh,..." and she stammered and looked at her friend. I added, "Might I get those coffees for you?" She finally said, "Oh, no, no. Thanks anyway. We have it." I said "OK", paid for my coffee and left.

Now, I could interpret that interaction in a few ways. My best friend, a femme by the way, made a disparaging remark about straight women who enjoy flirting with butches when I recounted this tale to her. Maybe she was just a friendly woman who was not flirting at all. Who knows?

Until I am coupled, I will continue, on those rare occasions, to make friendly gestures to women who appear to flirt with me in public.

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat.



maybe she just wasnt "out" to her friend. co-worker/work environment situations are hard for some people.

maybe she didnt know you were flirting. maybe she's the 2 x 4 type.

maybe she thought "OMG you think i'm flirting with you because i wanted you to pay for our coffee" and got embarrassed because she thought she was sending the wrong message

maybe she's married and didnt want her friend to see her accepting coffee from you or accuse her of flirting with someone

maybe she changed her mind mid flirt because your offer to pay was overt and she felt shy of it. (next time just pay the cashier for all 3 and walk away. if she's pleased she'll catch up with you to say 'thank you'.)

Yes, however the incident we are discussing, Reader offered to buy the women's coffee with the intention of getting something in return or else she wouldn't have said she was "shot down"; Not in an act of kindness towards a stranger. Which feeds into the reason why a lot of us wouldn't accept someone else paying for our coffee.

i thought the intention was to return the flirtation with equal interest and to check to see whether it was ok to take things one step further - i.e.: a cup of coffee. is that not so? i feel like i'm being slow here. sorry. "shot down" is just a phrase. i use it for all sorts of things that have nothing to do with me trying to get my groove on with someone. is it not ok for me to have thought, "oooh. way to get your flirt on!" when Reader offered to pay for coffee during a mutually engaged flirtation? people do it in bars all the time for more obvious reasons few of which involve intent that's above board. obviously Reader doesnt have any ill intent and coffee seems pretty benign to me. is this another one of those "(sigh) someone crack Nomad's skull open another inch please" education moments?

i want to understand both sides. i think i do understand both sides but i see them as a perspective in the moment sort of thing and not something that can be debated clearly because it's been taken out of context. i understand that it wasnt an altruistic act, thus eliminating the random act of kindness thing but is it necessarily a "wrong" act? cant it just be an act that is interpreted differently based on individual circumstances and the context of the moment or would it have always wrong for a femme (using Reader's reference word) to initiate or accept unexpected flirtation plus a sudden invitation for coffee from someone?

would we be talking about this at all if the person being offered something wasnt a femme? would it have been considered equally wrong if Reader was the one who received the "let me get that for you" from the femme? i understand the mindset behind leaving the "power to direct" with the person being approached (a femme, in this case) at first, allowing that person to tell you which direction they're willing to go and which direction they're not, and accepting that without attitude or aggression. that's just respect. and isnt that what Reader did? offered. got a "no thanks" and moved on without pushing?

if someone had done it for me i wouldnt have automatically thought "quit trying to buy me buster." i would have thought either "no thanks, not interested and dont want to lead you on" or "oooh! way to get your flirt on!" if that person were standing in line next to me at the grocery store and was flirting with me and then offered to pay my $60 grocery bill i'd have thought "uhm. no. creepy. buh bye now." but we're talking $2 here.

for the price of a cup of coffee my dignity cannot be bought. anyone assuming so would find themselves spitting out pieces of their pathetic ego by the time i was done with them. but for the price of a cup of coffee i might get the hint that someone was flirting with me. (i'm the 2 x 4 type meself)

i would sincerely appreciate further explanation/discussion. (small words, type slowly)

[tantalizingfemme]

[/B][/COLOR]
i thought the intention was to return the flirtation with equal interest and to check to see whether it was ok to take things one step further - i.e.: a cup of coffee. is that not so? i feel like i'm being slow here. sorry. "shot down" is just a phrase. i use it for all sorts of things that have nothing to do with me trying to get my groove on with someone. is it not ok for me to have thought "awww. that's sweet." when Reader offered to pay for coffee during a mutually engaged flirtation? i want to understand both sides but at this point the only one i "get" is Reader's. i understand that it wasnt an altruistic act, thus eliminating the random act of kindness thing. but is it necessarily a "wrong" act? I don't recall reading where it was said that it was wrong, what I have issue with is the assumption that had she said yes she must have been flirting, but because she said no, Reader was shot down. cant it just be an act that is interpreted differently based on individual circumstances? Of course it can. It is evident right in the responses in this thread.

if someone had done it for me i wouldnt have automatically thought "quit trying to buy me buster." i would have thought either "no thanks, not interested and dont want to lead you on" or "cool! the flirt is working!" now if the person standing in line next to me at the grocery store was flirting with me and offered to pay my $60 grocery bill i'd have thought "uhm. no. creepy." but we're talking $2 here. See, we differ here because I would never knowingly accept something from someone that I knew was flirting with me and i had no interest in, but accepted the offer cause shit, it's only 2 bucks. That to me is leading someone on. Okay, I am rereading and I misread what you said, sorry (I am leaving my original response so it makes sense to those who have read this already) Anyway, creep factor to me doesn't equate to the dollar amount, it has to do with the person's presentation of the offer. for the price of a cup of coffee my dignity cannot be bought. anyone assuming so would find themselves picking the pieces of their ego up off the floor when i was done with them. but for the price of a cup of coffee i might get the hint that someone was flirting with me. (i'm the 2 x 4 type meself)

i would sincerely appreciate further explanation/discussion. (small words, type slowly)

Bear with me, this will probably be all over the place.

Above Blue - Nomads text Red - My response

"Return the flirtation" and "mutually engaged flirtation" is assuming the woman was flirting back. Why is someone talking to someone else automatically flirting? Reader stated that she looked like she could be a femme lesbian. What does that even mean?

I talk to everyone. I will start a conversation with a stranger on the street, I say hello to anyone who makes eye contact, I chat up people in grocery lines, gas stations, coffee shops. Does that mean I am flirting? Nope, because I'm not. I am just a very friendly person. And I am also very conscious of cues that I get back from that person. And by that I mean if I feel that the person is misinterpreting my friendliness, I stop, nicely.

I personally have never had a stranger, out of the blue, want to buy something for me where I didn't feel like there was something more behind it. Am I jaded? Maybe. I like to think of myself as cautious. My experience has been with men wanting to buy me xyz with the intention that I will now give them more of my time, etc. (Now don't get me wrong, I like men. In my area of work I work mostly with men and most of them are the nicest guys. I say this because I don't want to convey the idea that I assume all men are out to get something.)

I find it easier to be consistent in politely saying no thank you then trying to interpret each situation. Don't have the desire and I just keep it moving under the assumption that it was a nice gesture.

And you can't compare being a line at a coffee shop with being in a bar. Two totally different environments; two totally different worlds. (I bartended for years in my twenties, so I have lots of experience with people buying other people drinks in bars).

[Nomad]

Bear with me, this will probably be all over the place.

Above Blue - Nomads text Red - My response

"Return the flirtation" and "mutually engaged flirtation" is assuming the woman was flirting back. Why is someone talking to someone else automatically flirting? Reader stated that she looked like she could be a femme lesbian. What does that even mean?

I talk to everyone. I will start a conversation with a stranger on the street, I say hello to anyone who makes eye contact, I chat up people in grocery lines, gas stations, coffee shops. Does that mean I am flirting? Nope, because I'm not. I am just a very friendly person. And I am also very conscious of cues that I get back from that person. And by that I mean if I feel that the person is misinterpreting my friendliness, I stop, nicely.

I personally have never had a stranger, out of the blue, want to buy something for me where I didn't feel like there was something more behind it. Am I jaded? Maybe. I like to think of myself as cautious. My experience has been with men wanting to buy me xyz with the intention that I will now give them more of my time, etc. (Now don't get me wrong, I like men. In my area of work I work mostly with men and most of them are the nicest guys. I say this because I don't want to convey the idea that I assume all men are out to get something.)

I find it easier to be consistent in politely saying no thank you then trying to interpret each situation. Don't have the desire and I just keep it moving under the assumption that it was a nice gesture.

And you can't compare being a line at a coffee shop with being in a bar. Two totally different environments; two totally different worlds. (I bartended for years in my twenties, so I have lots of experience with people buying other people drinks in bars).

totally makes sense that there is an assumption going on. i think there's more than one but they're all fairly natural given the variety of filters being applied to the story. Reader mentioned something like it felt like the woman was flirting. i wasnt there so i'm making the assumption that Reader is right about the way the environment felt. those are just 2 examples.

i chose not to get caught up in the idea that someone looked like "a femme lesbian" because i understood the idea Reader was trying to convey. having said that, i agree with you. what does a femme lesbian "look like"? (there! now we're back to an aspect of the femme privilege conversation i derailed. :D )

we share the habit of beginning conversations with almost anyone. like you, i take my cues from the person i'm speaking to. mostly they're positive experiences and when they're not i also move on politely. again, Reader felt the woman in question was flirting and i was not there so i'm making the assumption that this was the case. with that being my jumping off point, i dont understand the issue with taking things one step further to see if the woman was interested in doing the same. very few people have the chutzpah to continue a flirtation without a return on the investment they're making when they put themselves out there.

i tended bar for several years also. i agree wholeheartedly that a bar and a coffee shop are two different worlds but i dont think they lack a shared arena of engagement. the difference in the intent of the people one finds there is another assumption as there is a whole group of people who dont drink for one reason or another and so they have to get their flirt on in other places. i've had more creepy experiences in coffee shops than i have in bars. (of course, i spend more time in coffee shops and am more interested in coffee than i am in booze so maybe my perspective is skewed!)

like you, i think that being sincerely but consistently polite by saying 'no thank you' mitigates any problem that might arise from saying yes but i'm not willing to say that every circumstance merits a no either. it's just what makes me most comfortable in most cases. i dont think your perspective is a jaded one. i think it's usually wise to choose the most neutral path given the way some people's minds work. it's not hard to misinterpret 'no thank you'. having said that, i have been in the position where a stranger has stepped up to make a similar offer more than a few times. i've said no more than i've said yes but when i did say yes my response was appropriate to the circumstances. i'm not sure what my point is here except that i think context matters. maybe part of the question is whether or not we can interpret these circumstances objectively from this perspective? we werent there and have to trust Reader's judgement. i wouldnt have said yes to the offer to buy my coffee either, unless i was flirting with Reader and felt safe saying yes. the fact that the woman was with a friend adds to the safety of the situation for her and Reader didnt lay out the story with the opening line "so i approached a completely random woman and came on to her." every circumstance has context. Reader noted the context of that particular situation and chose to act in a particular way given the information she thought she was getting from this woman. given the tone of almost all the other responses i wonder whether a yes in this situation would make (the collective and general) you consider the woman Reader approached as mercenary or just an idiot. what enlightenment would we be offering the femme who says "yes" to this offer of coffee? does context matter or is it always wrong to offer and wrong to say yes to such an offer? i'm not boarding the Naive-ville bus here. i get that psychos drink coffee too. but if we take danger off the table for a minute, isnt this just the way that some people meet one another? does there have to be a deeper meaning to it?

it's not my intention to derail the topic of this thread so i'll leave off asking more questions along this vein. i appreciate your perspective. you gave me more to think about. thanks for adding to my understanding.

[Ginger]

Just catching up on this thread ... such a good discussion.

I notice that when money becomes a variable in an interaction, emotions flare up and beliefs and assumptions surge up (in a way that enriches).

Money is such a loaded, divisive, triggering, complicated thing and concept.

Maybe there should be a "money" thread.

[Reader]

Well, I hear you about the eye-contact thing. Perhaps in NJ it is different.

About two weeks ago I was in Dunkin Donuts and it was late at night and two nurses in scrubs were getting coffee. I was next to them getting my own coffee, when the dark-haired one began chatting me up. I chatted back. She was kind of nice and seemed like she could have been a femme lesbian, but it was hard to tell since she and her friend were both wearing scrubs.

I got the feeling she was flirting with me. Normally, I am sort of dense about such things, but I have been lacking a femme in my life, missing that pleasant femme energy a lot lately and so I am more aware of its absence, I guess.

She and her friend received their stuff and I said to her, "I'd be happy to get that for you ladies", holding out a bill in their server's direction. She said "Oh, uh,..." and she stammered and looked at her friend. I added, "Might I get those coffees for you?" She finally said, "Oh, no, no. Thanks anyway. We have it." I said "OK", paid for my coffee and left.

Now, I could interpret that interaction in a few ways. My best friend, a femme by the way, made a disparaging remark about straight women who enjoy flirting with butches when I recounted this tale to her. Maybe she was just a friendly woman who was not flirting at all. Who knows?

Until I am coupled, I will continue, on those rare occasions, to make friendly gestures to women who appear to flirt with me in public.

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat.


I don't think it will be especially helpful to respond in-depth to everyone's or anyone's reaction, in particular, to my post, except to say thanks to all for reading it. Of course, I had no idea that my little tale would generate such interest.

Sometimes, on BFP, I imagine that I am chatting with pals in a small cafe and yet somehow it evolves into something quite different; my post and I end up being inspected, dissected and soundly rejected (I do believe I have the end-line for a new poem---> "inspected, dissected and soundly rejected" ...but I digress ;-) , sometimes my post and I end up being inspected, dissected and soundly rejected by the same folks in multiple threads. I find this harmless, possible coincidence rather flattering at times and oddly amusing at others (truth be told) and not for what may seem to be the obvious reasons.

The folks who do the inspecting, dissecting and rejecting often actually do not know what I mean or what I am referring to, and a misunderstanding can occur which happened recently in another thread. As in real life, I only clarify my statements to folks when they ask me to. Otherwise, I assume I am clearly understood. I usually take some care in what I post. If people misunderstand me I do not blame them, I blame my own lack of writing skill, for this is a forum where one communicates by writing (mostly), and it does take skill to discuss complex issues in such a one-dimensional, black and white, way. I believe the need for skill is the reason there are so many "fluff" and fun threads and those light threads have the most hits.

Many people come here to socialize in a safe way and have an enjoyable time. They don't dare post anything that could cause them to gain the notice of those who might misunderstand them, even if they might need to vent or get support or wish to be educated.

I'm sure there is tons of stuff we all could learn and share with each other, but I suspect, nah, I KNOW from talking with people offline, that folks are afraid to post things because they lack confidence in their writing/communication skills and they are concerned that there is a roving pack of Post Police (and I DO NOT MEAN ADMINS) who are anxious to filet them for what often amounts to their inability to effectively communicate using this awkward medium.

All of this leads me to my reason for this post, my reason for replying in this way to all of the replies to my anecdotal post in this thread. I wish to clarify one thing because another post of mine was apparently misunderstood and, Can I Just Say, it left me rather perplexed.

In this thread I posted: <SNIP> "It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat."

For the record, what I was referring to above was a larger message to all of us: defeat, of any kind, public or private, can be taken apart and made harmless. Defeat can be temporary. There is always the option of outlasting defeat, no matter how big, no matter how small. In short, you can beat defeat.

Incidentally, I wasn't "defeated" or "shot down" in my attempt to "get something" in return, I was shot down in my attempt to have someone "take" something from me in the form of coffee.

This is a clear example of how it often is true that by doing service or "giving" service to others, we ourselves, in reality, are often the ones "receiving" the most from the act. I'm sure all of you fine folks who do social work or volunteer or help animal rescue or deposit spiders outside instead of killing them know just what I mean, eh?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm sorry but who exactly is this "roving pack of Post police?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't think it will be especially helpful to respond in-depth to everyone's or anyone's reaction, in particular, to my post, except to say thanks to all for reading it. Of course, I had no idea that my little tale would generate such interest.

Sometimes, on BFP, I imagine that I am chatting with pals in a small cafe and yet somehow it evolves into something quite different; my post and I end up being inspected, dissected and soundly rejected (I do believe I have the end-line for a new poem---> "inspected, dissected and soundly rejected" ...but I digress ;-) , sometimes my post and I end up being inspected, dissected and soundly rejected by the same folks in multiple threads. I find this harmless, possible coincidence rather flattering at times and oddly amusing at others (truth be told) and not for what may seem to be the obvious reasons.



Sometimes we do have the opportunity to have conversations, chat with pals in a intimate situation be it over coffee, food, telephone, Reunion, visiting, etc. I have been part of conversations or just listened and we (people) do disect, inspect and sometimes reject the things we are having conversations about. This is how we learn, how we teach, how we discuss and yes dissect things that to YOU (general) may not be a big deal but to some of us it is therefore we learn from one another...

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The folks who do the inspecting, dissecting and rejecting often actually do not know what I mean or what I am referring to, and a misunderstanding can occur which happened recently in another thread. As in real life, I only clarify my statements to folks when they ask me to. Otherwise, I assume I am clearly understood. I usually take some care in what I post. If people misunderstand me I do not blame them, I blame my own lack of writing skill, for this is a forum where one communicates by writing (mostly), and it does take skill to discuss complex issues in such a one-dimensional, black and white, way. I believe the need for skill is the reason there are so many "fluff" and fun threads and those light threads have the most hits.


Sometimes the dissecting and rejecting is nothing personal against the person who posted, or we ourselves posted. We are a vast community with different opinions and life experiences. I am not surprised that in a Femme Zone a few femme's decided to talk about what their experiences were in regards to your scenario. I don't find anything wrong with it, it's women.Femmes. talking about what it feels like to them in a Zone made for them therefore thinking that they can safely talk about their experiences.

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Many people come here to socialize in a safe way and have an enjoyable time. They don't dare post anything that could cause them to gain the notice of those who might misunderstand them, even if they might need to vent or get support or wish to be educated.



Even those who speak more or dissect things come in here with the thought of being safe to be able to do so. I don't understand how you can say that others do not post because of some kind of vigilant pack waiting to jump or attack these people. Just because someone needs to vent or get support does not mean they get to do it in a way that has an ism attached to it.


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I'm sure there is tons of stuff we all could learn and share with each other, but I suspect, nah, I KNOW from talking with people offline, that folks are afraid to post things because they lack confidence in their writing/communication skills and they are concerned that there is a roving pack of Post Police (and I DO NOT MEAN ADMINS) who are anxious to filet them for what often amounts to their inability to effectively communicate using this awkward medium.


I am going to be honest and tell you that the above statement pisses me off, it is a tiring assigned label that gets placed on people who choose to speak up about things, talk about experiences, or say hey that isn't ok or hey that kinda shit makes me uncomfy and here is why..

That's not a pack of post police Reader, that is community members wanting to have hard discussions about things that may not make you feel warm inside your brithches but they are conversations that need to be had nonetheless. I find it ugly. mean and unfair that you have labeled those of us who do speak up, cause let me tell you it is a fucking pain in the ass to continuously have people label you as some kind of *pack* animal, police, gang just because you took the fun or lifted the veil of someone's post and pointed out what may or may not make others feel uncomfy.

Also the whole others tell me they won't post bullshit is tiring, old and frankly against The TOS, it's not up to you to be the shining knight in armor falling onto a sword for those to *scared* of the post police..



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All of this leads me to my reason for this post, my reason for replying in this way to all of the replies to my anecdotal post in this thread. I wish to clarify one thing because another post of mine was apparently misunderstood and, Can I Just Say, it left me rather perplexed.

In this thread I posted: <SNIP> "It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat."

For the record, what I was referring to above was a larger message to all of us: defeat, of any kind, public or private, can be taken apart and made harmless. Defeat can be temporary. There is always the option of outlasting defeat, no matter how big, no matter how small. In short, you can beat defeat.

Incidentally, I wasn't "defeated" or "shot down" in my attempt to "get something" in return, I was shot down in my attempt to have someone "take" something from me in the form of coffee.

This is a clear example of how it often is true that by doing service or "giving" service to others, we ourselves, in reality, are often the ones "receiving" the most from the act. I'm sure all of you fine folks who do social work or volunteer or help animal rescue or deposit spiders outside instead of killing them know just what I mean, eh?


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I hate spiders, I am no social worker nor do I walk animals at the rescue. I can say though I am someone who believes in service especially to a community and I truly believe that those of us who speak up, who call out the bullshit, the racism, the ism's are doing this online community a service doing so. That's how we learn, that's how we STOP the ism's and I find it really sad that you are dismissing the words of the women.femmes who decided to take part of your post and talk about what it feels like for them in regard to your sceneario.

[Medusa]

Ok Folks-

We are getting reported posts about the recent exchanges.

Everyone in this thread needs to remember a few things:

* Invoking the "clique out to get me" or "certain people" scenario is not a way to engage in actual conversation. It's a red herring that, whether intended or not, creates an "anyone who doesn't agree with me is part of 'those people'" situation, and further derails the actual conversation into an ugly "us versus them" diatribe.

We don't want that. And further, it is against our TOS.

* Everyone needs to be speaking about their own experiences, not speaking for other people and certainly not "white knighting" for the invisible masses.

This is a nice thread and has created some wonderful discussion. I don't want to see this thread go to hell so please, let's all be super respectful of one another and anyone feeling like they can't post within those guidelines needs to take a time out from this thread (or they will receive a free one from the site).

Thanks!

[pinkgeek]

Reading this thread gave me an interesting insight into the world I live in that is not mainland USA. Sometimes paying for dinner, lunch, snack or coffee is a cultural thing, and not one that can be ignored.

A school pal and I often go out to lunch before or after studying. We usually just pay our own way - no worries. One day we went someplace that only took cash and all I had was a cc (not ATM) card on me because I forgot my wallet. I keep a back up card stashed deep in the bottom back pocket of my bag because well.. I'm forgetful..

So anyway - it wasn't a big deal I just decided to forgo lunch. She said no, I said yes, she said no, I said yes, and finally she looked at me and said "this is Hawaii, it's rude for me to eat alone, so pick something or I'll pick for you, but I'm not eating alone, don't be rude!" (I don't eat fish and she does, so I picked out of fear of being stuck with seafood soup!) Since then - we don't question if one of us doesn't have cash or is broke we just eat because it is the culturally appropriate thing to do.

The above is a deviation on what has been discussed - my point is that our views about "a simple cup of coffee" or "just a drink" and "the value of time" are, like all things, inherently affected by our culture. Not just the culture(s) we grew up with or the ones we live in/adhere to as adults, but also by the cultures of the people we interact with. Hence we have differences of opinion about something as seemingly simple as "a cup of coffee".

:bunchflowers:

[lisa93]

We do have straight passing privilege.