Getting Rid of Flippant Language : Check Yourselves Here

[Medusa]

I was doing some thinking over the last few weeks and wanted to bring up a topic of discussion about hurtful language or the flippant use of words that might be super hurtful to other folks.

I have been making a concious effort not to say someone is "a pussy" if I feel they are acting in a rat-like, weasely, wimpish, or spineless manner. Because really, Im a feminist and using a word like "pussy" to describe bad behavior doesnt flow with my feminist roots all that well.

Im also trying to be more conscious of using the verbiage "someone is bitching and griping" because again, "bitching" implies "whining like a bitch". And I think we might all be able to see the problem with using the word "bitch" in this manner

Another one that I feel is particularly hurtful:

"r*tard" - as in "something is r*tarded"

Let's talk about it. Are there words that you find offensive when used flippantly? Have you done work around your own set of problematic language?
Let's talk about breaking those habits and developing new ways of speaking.

[Hudson]

whatever!










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[Selenay]

Gypped and Jewed.

gyp
"to cheat, swindle," 1889, Amer.Eng., probably short for Gypsy.

jewed
verb. To get screwed over or cheated out of something.


(Source (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=jewed&searchmode=none) and Source (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jewed))

[Medusa]

Gypped and Jewed.

gyp
"to cheat, swindle," 1889, Amer.Eng., probably short for Gypsy.

jewed
verb. To get screwed over or cheated out of something.


(Source (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=jewed&searchmode=none) and Source (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jewed))



Ah yes!

I think I was 18 or 19 before I knew that using those words to describe how I got a better deal on something was ignorant and offensive. I grew up with a Step-Father saying those words every Saturday at yard sales "Well, can I get you any lower on the price?"


GREAT examples.

[Medusa]

And I almost forgot:

the terminology around being an "Indian Giver"

ouch.

[Words]

Bastard.

My two adopted children are technically bastards. And yes, I'm ashamed of the fact that I sometimes use the word in jest when teasing folks I care about or else referring to someone I dislike or have issues with.

I am, however, working on not using it and wish other folks would do the same thing.

Words

[Apocalipstic]

Ohhhhhh, this is gonna be hard. :bigcry:

I actually am a bastard and still say it a lot. You are right though, I need to watch it.

[Just_G]

I see what you all are saying with this thread...I totally get it, but....yes the infamous "but":winky:, sometimes people don't think about certain meanings of words before using them. I know I say "you lucky bastard" all the time when a friend of mine wins money playing the lotto. I don't mean it in a bad way at all.:( I will be more aware next time.

Some words or phrases bug people and rub them the wrong way. I know because there is one that drives me nuts, but it is one of those things people say all the time and I know they mean no offense to me when they say it, so I let it roll off. That is: "I could pull my hair out", or "you are making me pull my hair out", and there is even a little smilie avitar guy that pulls his hair (not on this site). You see, I have a hairpulling disorder. I pull my hair, but I do it subconsciously...without knowing I am even doing it....and it is when I am really stressed out. I usually notice when I go to cut my hair and see thinning patches on my head. (it is called trichotillomania)

I know those phrases are ones that people use to show their frustration or stress level. I never say a word because 1. it happens all the time 2. people don't have a clue about hairpulling disorders 3. to me (and this is just ME and my opinion in this situation) it would be petty of my to say "don't say that" when it has nothing directly to do with me. (it could be their bills, or their kids, or their lovers, etc. that make them say that)

I guess all in all, I try not to use words or phrases that are offensive, but I get that they are out there...trust me.

[Medusa]

Bastard.

My two adopted children are technically bastards. And yes, I'm ashamed of the fact that I sometimes use the word in jest when teasing folks I care about or else referring to someone I dislike or have issues with.

I am, however, working on not using it and wish other folks would do the same thing.

Words

Thank you, Words. I had never thought of that type of implication around that word but absolutely see how it can be ouchy.

[Medusa]

I see what you all are saying with this thread...I totally get it, but....yes the infamous "but":winky:, sometimes people don't think about certain meanings of words before using them. I know I say "you lucky bastard" all the time when a friend of mine wins money playing the lotto. I don't mean it in a bad way at all.:( I will be more aware next time.

Some words or phrases bug people and rub them the wrong way. I know because there is one that drives me nuts, but it is one of those things people say all the time and I know they mean no offense to me when they say it, so I let it roll off. That is: "I could pull my hair out", or "you are making me pull my hair out", and there is even a little smilie avitar guy that pulls his hair (not on this site). You see, I have a hairpulling disorder. I pull my hair, but I do it subconsciously...without knowing I am even doing it....and it is when I am really stressed out. I usually notice when I go to cut my hair and see thinning patches on my head. (it is called trichotillomania)

I know those phrases are ones that people use to show their frustration or stress level. I never say a word because 1. it happens all the time 2. people don't have a clue about hairpulling disorders 3. to me (and this is just ME and my opinion in this situation) it would be petty of my to say "don't say that" when it has nothing directly to do with me. (it could be their bills, or their kids, or their lovers, etc. that make them say that)

I guess all in all, I try not to use words or phrases that are offensive, but I get that they are out there...trust me.


Actually you have touched on something else that I am trying to learn to navigate. (and thank you for talking so honestly about this G, I know it can be scary!)

I have a cousin who has constant seizures and I know that my Aunt (her mom) had one really bad argument with someone in my family during a holiday several years back. Someone made the comment, "GOD! Dont have a fucking seizure!"
My Aunt let the other family member know really quick that it was hurtful and triggery.

I can see that. I can see how phrases that are entrenched in our culture can become the "catch of the day" but also might be triggery to someone dealing with real issues.

Much like you G, I try to leave room and humor where I can. Its a fine line and I think we all have to do what feels comfortable for us. For instance, my own 'ouchy' feelings around the word "pussy" dont feel ouchy when other Femmes use that word in the same way. Its just a choice I make for myself and no judgment on other folks who dont see it the way I do.

:)

[Just_G]

Actually you have touched on something else that I am trying to learn to navigate. (and thank you for talking so honestly about this G, I know it can be scary!)

I have a cousin who has constant seizures and I know that my Aunt (her mom) had one really bad argument with someone in my family during a holiday several years back. Someone made the comment, "GOD! Dont have a fucking seizure!"
My Aunt let the other family member know really quick that it was hurtful and triggery.

I can see that. I can see how phrases that are entrenched in our culture can become the "catch of the day" but also might be triggery to someone dealing with real issues.

Much like you G, I try to leave room and humor where I can. Its a fine line and I think we all have to do what feels comfortable for us. For instance, my own 'ouchy' feelings around the word "pussy" dont feel ouchy when other Femmes use that word in the same way. Its just a choice I make for myself and no judgment on other folks who dont see it the way I do.

:)

I used to get really bent out of shape when I was in my teens, but have learned that I deal with this certain situation better if I joke around and make light of it. It is something so rare that a lot of people don't know it exists. I am not offended by it so much any more, but sometimes when I hear it, I :twitch:...luckily that is not very often.

Phrases mean different things to different people....unless it is a blatant, in-your-face, on purpose kind of thing meant to be hurtful, I think there has to be some lee-way given or everyone will constantly be walking on eggshells.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I struggle with words all the time. I words I hate being called retard, stupid, lazy, wacko, or the ones that center on my health issues like having seizures & being asked if I act like a fish out of water flopping on the floor.

I just am not the kind of person to respond negatively back at the sayer of the remark. I tend to keep it in. Sometimes after repeated "attacks" and nobody steps in, I just let loose and say something. The words may not be the right ones, or may come out backwards - that person knows they are being nasty.

When my tics start up, I am a hermit. It is a horrible thing to have. Jokes just seem endless. And when someone see's me with my tic going full force, they laugh. I ignore it. They don't know better.

My bio-father was verbally abuse towards me. I am a very quiet and shy person. I try to let things go, and really try to be a man of forgiveness. However, there are some folks who really do enjoy being mean and ugly, like my father. They are the ones I avoid. At the end of every day, I pray for them. They need it. It takes no more energy to be mean than it does to be kind and loving.

[TeaPartyTart]

While I agree there should be some editing in speech, I do think there is such a think as being overly PC.

For example:
One of my favorite sayings is "Fuck a Duck".

While I mean no harm to the member of the poultry family or have any inkling of beastility, I still say it. I will most likely continue saying it.

I can appreciate a level of checking one's self but I don't want to lose sight of still being able to express myself in a manner that provides a sense of character and uniqueness.

[Waldo]

As someone who wanted to be a linguist I'm well aware of all of the horrible origins in many of the phrases we use every day.

Medusa I get where you're going with this thread but I don't necessarily think of these things as flippant. Often times it's quite calculated.

But we would all do well to educate ourselves on the words we use online and in person.

[Bob]

You see, I have a hairpulling disorder.

Not to make light of your condition, Just_G, but this is a good example of why it's impossible to speak in such a way that no one will ever be offended. Or, to use a more personal example, several years ago I was diagnosed with ADD. It annoys the living crap out of me (no offense to sentient crap intended) when people make silly remarks about ADD, about 'ooh, bright shiny' etc. They've got some sound-bite knowledge about it (ergo, none), and have no idea what the real experience of ADD is like (frequently, quite difficult and painful.) Be that as it may, it's an annoyance, not something that offends me. Because, after all, you can't LOOK at me at tell that I have it.

Using words that are clearly derogatory and directed at body parts, skin color, (obvious) mental handicaps and the like are used way too often by a lot of people who should know better. My theory? We're lazy and as a culture have become coarsened to certain types of language. (I'm so sick of hearing the word fuck and its derivatives used as a noun, verb, adjective, and gerund I could fuckin cut a bitch.) In Medusa's example of using 'pussy/bitch' around her femme friends and that being okay is no more so than blacks referring to themselves as niggas. The argument (which Medusa didn't make, I hasten to add) that it's somehow empowering, I think, is bullshit. I think it subconsciously reinforces negative stereotypes even within the groups that are 'taking back' the word(s) at issue.

I got off track here and can't find the rails. Nevermind. :)

[blush]

"wife-beater" instead of tank top

Yeah, I've used this term, but I'm really trying to get it out of my vocabulary.

[Diva]

I love this thread, even though I'm the Queen of Flippant. Ok....maybe Medusa is the Queen, but I'm in the court there somewhere......

~Don't care for the term "wife~beater" either.
~Don't care for the word "retarded".
~My Dad ~ God bless his redneck heart ~ used to say "colored" all the time when describing an African~American.....and every time I heard him say it, I asked him what color they were. He would look at me like I'd lost my mind and say "black". But I can remember when he said the "n" word as a small child, too.....<shiver>
~Don't care for the word "bastard", but I am known to use the word "bastid", which I guess can be considered doubly bad, as I'm saying "bastard" and making sport of the northeastern accent in the process.....

But like someone mentioned earlier, it's in the intent, I'm thinking......I don't mean for it to be hurtful when I say "bastid".....so if I AM, then call me on it. I'm really ok with that. If we start bein' offended by everything everybody says, we'll all be playin' Pictionary pretty soon.....

Edited to add that I have ADD & am technically a bastid myself.

[Gemme]

I was doing some thinking over the last few weeks and wanted to bring up a topic of discussion about hurtful language or the flippant use of words that might be super hurtful to other folks.

I have been making a concious effort not to say someone is "a pussy" if I feel they are acting in a rat-like, weasely, wimpish, or spineless manner. Because really, Im a feminist and using a word like "pussy" to describe bad behavior doesnt flow with my feminist roots all that well.

Im also trying to be more conscious of using the verbiage "someone is bitching and griping" because again, "bitching" implies "whining like a bitch". And I think we might all be able to see the problem with using the word "bitch" in this manner

Another one that I feel is particularly hurtful:

"r*tard" - as in "something is r*tarded"

Let's talk about it. Are there words that you find offensive when used flippantly? Have you done work around your own set of problematic language?
Let's talk about breaking those habits and developing new ways of speaking.

I think it's a wonderful idea for thread, since we all have used words and phrases that have hurt others throughout our lives. It's impossible to not have done so.

Not to make light of your condition, Just_G, but this is a good example of why it's impossible to speak in such a way that no one will ever be offended. Or, to use a more personal example, several years ago I was diagnosed with ADD. It annoys the living crap out of me (no offense to sentient crap intended) when people make silly remarks about ADD, about 'ooh, bright shiny' etc. They've got some sound-bite knowledge about it (ergo, none), and have no idea what the real experience of ADD is like (frequently, quite difficult and painful.) Be that as it may, it's an annoyance, not something that offends me. Because, after all, you can't LOOK at me at tell that I have it.

Using words that are clearly derogatory and directed at body parts, skin color, (obvious) mental handicaps and the like are used way too often by a lot of people who should know better. My theory? We're lazy and as a culture have become coarsened to certain types of language. (I'm so sick of hearing the word fuck and its derivatives used as a noun, verb, adjective, and gerund I could fuckin cut a bitch.) In Medusa's example of using 'pussy/bitch' around her femme friends and that being okay is no more so than blacks referring to themselves as niggas. The argument (which Medusa didn't make, I hasten to add) that it's somehow empowering, I think, is bullshit. I think it subconsciously reinforces negative stereotypes even within the groups that are 'taking back' the word(s) at issue.

I got off track here and can't find the rails. Nevermind. :)

I got a lot out of this post, but I hesitated when I came to the underlined part. Our community has 'taken back' many terms that were used in a derogatory manner, such as dyke and Queer.

As someone who id's as Queer, I hope that I'm not reinforcing a negative stereotype of Queers.

[apretty]

Gypped and Jewed.

gyp
"to cheat, swindle," 1889, Amer.Eng., probably short for Gypsy.

jewed
verb. To get screwed over or cheated out of something.


(Source (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=jewed&searchmode=none) and Source (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jewed))

coming clean:

while the term 'jewed' makes my skin crawl--i never knew that 'gyp' was related to 'gypsy' until about 6 months ago, the reason it never occurred to me is because 1. i don't normally say, 'gypped' as it seems out-dated and 2. i had thought the spelling was, 'jipped'. i had occasion to write the word, and when i looked it up i was dismayed to find that it was 'gyp' and knew immediately that it had its origins in/of relating to 'gypsy'. i thought to relate this story because i don't consider myself to be unaware when it comes to language and origins of words--somehow this one got by me.

[Darth Denkay]

Hearing someone use the term "retarded" sets me off every time.

Another phrase that gets to me is when someone is having a bad day and someone says "oh, they must not have had their prozac today." That is insulting to anyone who takes psychotropic drugs. I call people on it. I realize that folks don't intend it as insulting but I will not sit by and let it go.

Bob, I get you that it is difficult to say things that will never offend others, but when something is said folks need to be called on it. Offensive language is not okay. I can give someone the benefit of the doubt if they simply don't know any better, but once it is pointed out if they continue to use it it is disrespectful to a group of us.

There are certain areas where we are frequently reminded that if a member of said group is offended by words/phrases then we need to respect them and refrain from said word/phrase. Why is this considered appropriate for some groups but not others? There is nothing remotely humerous about mental illness or the medications used to treat it. If someone makes a flippant statement utilizing that language they should be called on it. No excuses not to be or to continue to use that kind of language.

Can you tell that I'm passionate about this?

[Arwen]

Rape

"That ticket guy raped me for those tickets."
"I went to ths store and got raped. Did you see those prices."

And ad nauseum.

This is one word that makes me see red. I become so infuriated I need to b e :censor:.

It is a hurtful, ugly, nasty word that brings up so much pain.

If I could erase all use of this word other than what it is actually mean for, I would be happy.

[WolfyOne]

Great topic Medusa. I'm not usually one to use words that hurt others intentionally and rarely swear unless quite angry and provoked at that time. I wasn't raised around it and think there is little use for those words. I will say there is one word that will get me riled up in a heart beat and I will go off on the person that uses it around me. That word would be cunt and writing it here doesn't make me feel good, but if I didn't, you wouldn't know the word.

[atomiczombie]

Rape

"That ticket guy raped me for those tickets."
"I went to ths store and got raped. Did you see those prices."

And ad nauseum.

This is one word that makes me see red. I become so infuriated I need to b e :censor:.

It is a hurtful, ugly, nasty word that brings up so much pain.

If I could erase all use of this word other than what it is actually mean for, I would be happy.


I know that Rush Limbaugh uses the term: "bend down and grab the ankles" to describe what the dems do to the republicans. It always irks me when he does that. He is not only implying rape, but also anal sex. While rape is a horrid thing (as someone who has experienced it first hand), the implication that anal sex is something equally horrible is a problem for me. It has homophobic implications as well.

[Medusa]

Im so glad we are all having this conversation!

And I just want to say that Wolfy brought up a word that made me think a little harder (thanks Wolfy!)


The word "cunt"..aka the "c" bomb *isnt* problematic for me. I personally ADORE that word. It feels like a reclamation of power to me.
Here is the point that I wanted to make with this thread, there are words that we might use in our vocabulary that feel different to other people. Wolfy gave a great example of how the "c" bomb feels when Wolfy hears it.
I can now be *aware* when I use that word in Wolfy's presense that Wolfy feels differently about that word than I do.

And awareness gives us the ability to make choices. I like that.

Now, here is another thing to think about. It feels to me like there is a difference in using words that are racially, ethnically, or culturally offensive (think "gypped") and using words like "cunt" that may be sexist or misogynistic when describing a woman and people like me who use the word "cunt" to take the power back from the hierarchy that tries to villify or silence me with my own sexuality.

One of those is NEVER ok, one of those is ok (for me) because of how *I* own it. I dont know if this makes any sense here.

Now, do I think that someone could come in and say "Well, I use the word "gyp" because it means that I am owning it differently"? No. I think that a word like that, when used in the context of denigrating an entire group of people, can't be owned by anything except one of those -isms. (or ignorance)

Again, I am SO SO SO glad that we are all talking about this. I think that we can all help each other communicate in more thoughtful ways and ways that make the Planet feel more positive to everyone who comes here. Thank you all so much :)

[SuperFemme]

After sustaining a brain injury and being deemed "mentally incompetent" by the government? I have reclaimed the word "retarded". Rather than having it shoved down our throats by others, some of my fellow brain injury rehabilitation students used it in reference to ourselves. Before somebody else got the chance. When you set your own kitchen on fire 16 times in three months and order the same pizza 23 times in an hour from the local pizza parlor...you have to give yourself permission to laugh at that which is painful. I use the word very sparingly in front of certain company. It is not used in an offensive manner, but perhaps I need to rethink?

[Medusa]

After sustaining a brain injury and being deemed "mentally incompetent" by the government? I have reclaimed the word "retarded". Rather than having it shoved down our throats by others, some of my fellow brain injury rehabilitation students used it in reference to ourselves. Before somebody else got the chance. When you set your own kitchen on fire 16 times in three months and order the same pizza 23 times in an hour from the local pizza parlor...you have to give yourself permission to laugh at that which is painful. I use the word very sparingly in front of certain company. It is not used in an offensive manner, but perhaps I need to rethink?

My love!

I have the same stuff going on around the word "crazy". I am, technically and medically, "crazy" and I have used that word to identify myself in mixed company as a way to show folks that Im ok talking about it. It is an intensely personal thing when it comes to medical stuff (as you well know) and I know that I have been in conversations where people are incredibly uncomfortable asking questions or trying to navigate around my idiosyncrasies. I use the word "crazy" to kinda say "Hey, I have a diagnosis for all of this eccentric stuff." I *identify* with "crazy".

But.

A mental health professional has told me that this word is hurtful to people who dont own it in the same way.

The question sets up a weird dichotomy for me where I put my identity as "crazy" first or those other "crazy" people's feelings. I dont think it has to *be* a dichotomy but Im still learning to navigate that.

In short, I HEAR YOU! YAY!

[Gemme]

My love!

I have the same stuff going on around the word "crazy". I am, technically and medically, "crazy" and I have used that word to identify myself in mixed company as a way to show folks that Im ok talking about it. It is an intensely personal thing when it comes to medical stuff (as you well know) and I know that I have been in conversations where people are incredibly uncomfortable asking questions or trying to navigate around my idiosyncrasies. I use the word "crazy" to kinda say "Hey, I have a diagnosis for all of this eccentric stuff." I *identify* with "crazy".

But.

A mental health professional has told me that this word is hurtful to people who dont own it in the same way.

The question sets up a weird dichotomy for me where I put my identity as "crazy" first or those other "crazy" people's feelings. I dont think it has to *be* a dichotomy but Im still learning to navigate that.

In short, I HEAR YOU! YAY!

Crazy is a word that I use that I've always felt it was okay to use. Of course, as an adult, I see the hurt it can cause others and try not to use it, especially when I'm knowingly in the company of someone who would be hurt by the usage.

But growing up, my mother (paranoid schizophrenic) would use it herself and that gave me a feeling of acceptability with it. I still occasionally say...so and so makes me crazy or this or that is driving me to the brink of insanity. I realize that I'm not 'going mad' or insane or crazy, although...in that moment, my world my feel that way...and I can see that someone who didn't know where I was coming from and my ownership of that word (courtesy of mom) could take it to heart in a most painful way. That's certainly not my goal.

I believe that so many of us speak words and phrases that we may not even know the origin of or exactly how hurtful it may be like we're breathing air. It's everywhere and it's only escalating. The youth that I am surrounded by regularly uses verbage that literally makes me cringe.

I love the AWARENESS of so many issues is being raised here and on this site. It's a beautiful thing to behold.

[SuperFemme]

My love!

I have the same stuff going on around the word "crazy". I am, technically and medically, "crazy" and I have used that word to identify myself in mixed company as a way to show folks that Im ok talking about it. It is an intensely personal thing when it comes to medical stuff (as you well know) and I know that I have been in conversations where people are incredibly uncomfortable asking questions or trying to navigate around my idiosyncrasies. I use the word "crazy" to kinda say "Hey, I have a diagnosis for all of this eccentric stuff." I *identify* with "crazy".

But.

A mental health professional has told me that this word is hurtful to people who dont own it in the same way.

The question sets up a weird dichotomy for me where I put my identity as "crazy" first or those other "crazy" people's feelings. I dont think it has to *be* a dichotomy but Im still learning to navigate that.

In short, I HEAR YOU! YAY!

I know YOU get it. What I want to know is how DO we reclaim the epitaths that are commonly used by outsiders to hurt a sub-group? I mean, there is the "Thats so gay" and such. Gay is not a slur any longer. So what about the slurs that runs neck in neck? Psycho? Retarded? Lame?

What of those of us who fit the descriptor? Can we not use it as a tool to just get through the bullshit? Why CAN'T we reclaim the word rather than use them as slurs? I know for me it takes the power of those who use the words as slurs?

[WILDCAT]

I know YOU get it. What I want to know is how DO we reclaim the epitaths that are commonly used by outsiders to hurt a sub-group? I mean, there is the "Thats so gay" and such. Gay is not a slur any longer. So what about the slurs that runs neck in neck? Psycho? Retarded? Lame?

What of those of us who fit the descriptor? Can we not use it as a tool to just get through the bullshit? Why CAN'T we reclaim the word rather than use them as slurs? I know for me it takes the power of those who use the words as slurs?

There is SO much that comes to my mind with this thread, that I have not been able to express. So, I'll just start.

Here.

I think about when I was living in a major city, in a predominantly Black neighborhood where many folks starting referring to each other as "nigga" on the street as an offical greeting at the time - complete with hand grasp and big hug/back pat. There was clearly great pride, and some folks appreciated it, while others clearly did not.

I wouldn't say that to anyone Black. I remember my gay male friends years back reclaiming the word "faggot". I felt, like many of us did... "they could say it, but no one else had better use it". (Like against them.) Then, we start saying "dykes, lesi-humpers", whatever... Don't you say it though. WINK.

Today if you're close to folks, this can be exchanged affectionately back and forth! (Ya bunch of damn queers!! Or, "straight folks", whichever shoe fits... MUST-BE-AWARE-OF-EVERYSINGLEPERSONAND/ORLIFEFORM.)

Don't you think much of this topic concern is so relative to times, political climate and such? Like "Married With Children"... When it first came on, I laughed for probably some of the wrong reasons. I had been conditioned to a certain degree, yes. Then I became politically aware and was appalled at the show. Now, I laugh my butt off at it. I see it now as poking fun of folks - who poke fun of folks... (Like the Archie Bunker show. His show chair is in the Smithsonian for goodness sakes! A racist on the show, but "learning"...?) These shows were "ahead?" of their time and walking a fine "edgy" line. So, did I "regress", or change how I perceive things, what? I know I've changed and changed and grew, but you might not know it, if you don't know my journey.

Speaking of "butts". Songs like lyrics like "I like big butts", or "Fat Bottom Girl" by the group Queen... Offensive? He was a queen, could he write that? Blacks singing about loving large round booties, isn't that a beautiful thing to the women? (While, the white models are anorexic trying to be skin and bone - fucking dying to be "beautiful". That seems "nuts" to me, there I said it! Crazy reference.)

This IS and will be all over the place. Sorry.

Jew-ed and gyp-ed will be offensive as it is referring to a group of people. A culture. Stereotyping. And I don't think with these particular histories: they joke about it amongst each other - or find any fondness with such qualities "inferred". (I'm not sure though, they may joke about it... I wouldn't, but I can't relate and feel thus I have no right. Can't "reclaim" what was never there to begin with for me.)

When I moved back from N.Y.C., ill at that time - and a friend of mine said "so and so was just a fucking cunt"! I nearly fell off the bar stool. That was such a horrible word to me. Now, I occassionally might use it, but verbally disclaim first stating: you know this is NOT a popular word, so it has to be a REALLY bad person for me to think or say such a thing.

But, if we grew up with that word usually being used after a woman was gang raped and [literally] pissed on... and in movies for entertainment! It felt like such a horrible word.

Now, if women amongst theirselves want to have fun and reclaim that word. Is that a problem?

Using the rape word seems terrible to me. I've never used that expression in an anology situation (that I can recall anyway), and didn't even think of it until it was mentioned here. Some folks are even upset that fantasy role playing involves the concept of rape. Consenting adults... Is it wrong or unhealthy? Is it not good to enjoy it? I thought one way back in the day, newly dealing with violence politically in our society against women and now completely different - with regards to consenting adults doing their own thing.

Retarded. Again, one of those words where we had become politically aware to be sensitive and considerate about. Certain folks were called that, even if they simply couldn't talk - with a high IQ. I wouldn't use it, well - my Mom would have threatened us if we did so as kids. However, after a head injury friend said it to me during a phone conversation - I have been freed up here, walking around like "retard's" my special new Tourette's long lost [self included here] friend!
__

Super, even though the things you described a few post back are frigteningly horrific (the fires and such), now - that you're safe and past that period of your life, I found that funnier than hell that you wrote that! Hey, they could have used YOU in the Stone Age as a fire starter! LOL!! Or, "how could you REMEMBER to order a pizza 23 x's"? Ah, ha, ha! I can relate some.

Listen, I was in my local grocery store the other day. I shopped around a bit - it is NOT a pretty picture trust me. (I've wondered before what I must look like as a video short in a store - back and forth, no sense or logic to anything!) Then I thought... "OK I am done here now", and started hunting and hunting up and down the aisles for my basket. Looking repeatedly in the same exacts spots. I often move it around and set it down somewhere - out of harms way for trippers. So, every two minutes I'm flying past the cash register stating, "I can't find my damn basket"!!! Long story short, it was on the egde of the conveyor belt already. I forgot that I had set it down there - and then wondered off for something else (which I often DO). They know me there.
__

Anyway, "intention". Isn't that key, but then what about other folks sensibilities? I guess one person may have to "tone down" in certain forums, while other's have to grow thicker skin? What if a young person IS just learning that "GYPED" came from a stereotype of people - not that is was just a word that meant shorthand slang for "ripped off", spelled "jipped". Intention. Mistakes. I speak out myself when I am not comfortable hearing something. And I apologize if I offend anyone.

I am PISSED right now that things are "QUEER", back in the negative sense of the word - that folks are "gay acting", etc... is not exactly one nice compliment. That the straight kids are using this and it's becoming more and more acceptable. Does it help in ONE way, but hurt in another? Or neither?

If someone's heart is hurt. If folks are still in danger of being hurt physically for who they are... the "Howard Stern Sydrome" needs to stop - or be called out. (What I USED to call the Don Rickles mentality - but, many don't know who that is anymore.) Get a laugh at the joke/expense of others. Insult specialists! Look at how rich it has made Howard to be rude and insulting. Why wouldn't folks think that is cool and want to emulate that?

Right now I have major sundowners! I got up thinking it was Thurs. morning, and wondered how I would make it to tonight's Survivor - the only reality show of interest to me at this time. (Some seasons I like these shows and some I don't watch, or I don't want to get caught up addicted to them - and there are some "big meannies" on some of these shows! We have gotten too used to liking/accepting this negative crap, I feel.) Anyway, then, Rick Sanchez on CNN said, "Larry King up next live at nine". I shot my view to the window and thought, SHIT it is night time 9 o'clock, and I just missed my show!

I didn't even think about the word "crazy" being negative anymore. Old words have new meanings now, right? I joke about it - for myself. But, that has been such a long standard. Someone went "crazy on that guitar or drum solo"! It was a compliment at times! (Like "BAD" is the new "GOOD"!) I've said things like "they only have three burners working", or "dumber than a box of rocks". (And for myself too.) But, I was sensitive when I said these things to others, aware of it. It was usually directed at someone who had hurt someone. (Again, myself included.) SO, intention was perhaps not so "considerate" then? I was human and acted out a bit, in retaliation... in a protective mode(?) Did they have it coming? Is in excusable, forgiveable?

Would I call anyone "retarded", who was - or was someone I did not know, who could be? No. Would I call someone physically challenged, "lame"? No. Have I had lame excuses for things, "yes".

What is/are my point(s)? I don't know...

Sincerely,
WILDCAT

:guitar:

Rock on!

[WolfyOne]

Im so glad we are all having this conversation!

And I just want to say that Wolfy brought up a word that made me think a little harder (thanks Wolfy!)


The word "cunt"..aka the "c" bomb *isnt* problematic for me. I personally ADORE that word. It feels like a reclamation of power to me.
Here is the point that I wanted to make with this thread, there are words that we might use in our vocabulary that feel different to other people. Wolfy gave a great example of how the "c" bomb feels when Wolfy hears it.
I can now be *aware* when I use that word in Wolfy's presense that Wolfy feels differently about that word than I do.

And awareness gives us the ability to make choices. I like that.

Now, here is another thing to think about. It feels to me like there is a difference in using words that are racially, ethnically, or culturally offensive (think "gypped") and using words like "cunt" that may be sexist or misogynistic when describing a woman and people like me who use the word "cunt" to take the power back from the hierarchy that tries to villify or silence me with my own sexuality.

One of those is NEVER ok, one of those is ok (for me) because of how *I* own it. I dont know if this makes any sense here.

Now, do I think that someone could come in and say "Well, I use the word "gyp" because it means that I am owning it differently"? No. I think that a word like that, when used in the context of denigrating an entire group of people, can't be owned by anything except one of those -isms. (or ignorance)

Again, I am SO SO SO glad that we are all talking about this. I think that we can all help each other communicate in more thoughtful ways and ways that make the Planet feel more positive to everyone who comes here. Thank you all so much :)

If the word is used pertaining to ones self and you feel good about it, great. I have always thought it vulgar. Growing up in Chicago and having 5 brothers, I heard it spit out of their mouths more ways than I can count. Ignorant is all I can say about a few of my brothers. Some grew up and learned and some never grew up.

Communication is a big part of what's missed in some threads. Once one person takes a sentence or two out of context from the OP's way of thinking, others also tend to jump on the band wagon. I know, I've been guilty of it myself. There are threads many won't go into out of fear.....fear of either being rejected or humiliated. We all have our own opinions and it's ok. It's not ok to jump all over anyone in a thread. The language you use to present yourself is reflected upon you. I want others to always feel comfy here, so I'll do my best to watch how I use my words. We can agree to disagree as long as what we say doesn't come across as flippant.

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP...Speaking of "butts". Songs like lyrics like "I like big butts", or "Fat Bottom Girl" by the group Queen... Offensive? He was a queen, could he write that? Blacks singing about loving large round booties, isn't that a beautiful thing to the women? (While, the white models are anorexic trying to be skin and bone - fucking dying to be "beautiful". That seems "nuts" to me, there I said it! Crazy reference.)

thankyouthankyouthankyou! my sweet round phat ass and i thank you.

next subject. i'm rarely offended by words themselves but rather by their intent. it allows for less restriction and volatility in conversation and artistic expression.

i love the word CUNT. i own the book Cunt. i have a friend who turns the spine of the book around every time she walks by my book case. i want to buy her a copy for the holidays.

i love describing myself as phat or fat or ffat or whatever version of it comes out of my fingertips as i type that day. i dont have a weight problem. it's other people who seem have a problem with weight.

i love the word FUCK. i would use it like punctuation if i hadnt been asked not to by someone who matters to me.

i dont like to say G*DDAMMIT or J*SUS because i dont like to walk all over the belief systems of others. it seems unnecessary.

i am bothered when people say "DONT BE SUCH A GIRL" as if to be a girl could possibly be something one would dislike1

i love saying BUGGER and COCKUP and SHITE because they imbue swearing in Amerika with a different flavor.

i love the word QUEER and use it often in many connotations.

i'm offended when people say THAT'S SO GAY because they never mean it to mean "hey, look at how cool and intensely intelligent that is." or "my how pretty and fresh and delightful." perhaps GAY could be the new N-word?

last summer i wrote a prayer for my altar. this thread brings a specific part of it to mind: I will not lose sight of the fact that my words and actions are meant to be gifts to the world rather than weapons against it.

[WILDCAT]

If the word is used pertaining to ones self and you feel good about it, great. I have always thought it vulgar. Growing up in Chicago and having 5 brothers, I heard it spit out of their mouths more ways than I can count. Ignorant is all I can say about a few of my brothers. Some grew up and learned and some never grew up.

Communication is a big part of what's missed in some threads. Once one person takes a sentence or two out of context from the OP's way of thinking, others also tend to jump on the band wagon. I know, I've been guilty of it myself. There are threads many won't go into out of fear.....fear of either being rejected or humiliated. We all have our own opinions and it's ok. It's not ok to jump all over anyone in a thread. The language you use to present yourself is reflected upon you. I want others to always feel comfy here, so I'll do my best to watch how I use my words. We can agree to disagree as long as what we say doesn't come across as flippant.

Wow, this was sad to me. I'm sorry you went through this experience WolfyOne, with your siblings. I can't even imagine.

I always thought the "c" word was vulgar sounding too. It was like the worst thing you could say about a woman. It our area it is still not used - except for my one friend's family! All of the girls there say it. (Think like "Kitty from Gunsmoke", using the highest level of profanity! And ALL quick tempered redheads! FUN!! Now, I am a bit of a redhead, not being "redist" here, Mm-K?)

There were three sisters and ONE brother growing up in our household. IF my brother would have EVER used "any" word like that to/at/for us, there would have been a hole out one of the house walls replicating his exact dimensions.

Places like this with public writing, of course I try to be considerate. Isn't it just common courtesy? Sometimes I am shocked by what I read, AND I also have knee-jerked with the band wagon - that has normally been when someone was not just confused, or not showing they now understand or even care, but actually being downright rude and provocative - seemingly with intent. (WHICH has often kind of proved the point for the "knee-jerk" in the first place and follow up responses. Instigating, so to speak. Target words used with mal-intention.)

But, we are going to make mistakes. It's how we learn and grow! (I know, I always say this kind of stuff!) And everyone is at a different place of personal growth and understanding. I've said this before too - that's just the reality of it all. There are many kind and helpful folks here though.

Some rude ones are "joykill" for me though, I'll admit. The spirit and intention of a brand new thread can be brought down SO QUICKLY. I would get all excited to see something of interest to me - next thing I knew there is someone posting antagonistically somehow. It is hurtful and seems senseless to me. But, "humor" to someone else. Hatred sometimes? Perhaps some of this does make sense to some, well clearly it does - as wars break out for folks taking sides. We usually see these things on what we know are the "hot topics". (And then there's the nasty breakups of course...)

Yes, we also see repeatedly that folks state, "this is why I stay on the fluff and fun threads". I have often considered that myself.

The wars are generally for two different reasons though. Sticking up for someone they know or share the same sentiment(s), OR because someone felt someone was jumped on too harshly. Sometimes in the heat of battle we can't even keep from [distinguishing] that too clearly...

:mob:

We should be able to write anywhere here without fear. IF someone rips on me publicly in a thread, or writes something "anti" any person, group, culture, etc... folks can and will speak up. That is community. That's not all a bad thing.

The trolls kill me. I finally accepted that this is done on purpose (yeah, it was a true shocker and heart breaker), and now can see the pattern at times. We need to be careful with that here I believe - and not turn on each other when we are in fact being set up to do so. (That's NOT the same thing at all where there is a good debate topic up for discussion.)

Generally, once I am done with someone though... I am "done". Their loss! (I do embrace efforts however to clear up things - for the genuine at heart. I'm a softy that way!) I see there are others like this too.

:cheer:


*There are no easy answers. It IS just good that discussions are taking place like this - especially on a new site. Thanks for that!! (I think I got a little too general and broad here. Oops. Emotional "PMS" disclaimer time! :watereyes: Afraid to submit this now...:overreaction: I know, it's boring... but, I hate to expose my thoughts, I just can't help myself though!)

:ambulance:

[Selenay]

"Crazy bitch."

You ain't seen crazy til you call me that.

[Lynn]

When I read the title of the thread, I wasn't thinking of specific words, but rather how words are used to demean or dismiss. As Hudson wrote, earlier, "whatever." Being sarcastic, flippant, and dismissive are ways to hurt someone deliberately or thoughtlessly with language. In my view, using language in this way is more offensive than the use of any particular word.

On the subject of specific words, my feelings have changed about certain words, over time. When I came out the first time, in the late 70's, the word queer was not acceptable in my circles. Coming out again, within the past 7 years, I was surprised to hear how the word has been reclaimed. At this point, I love it and use it to describe myself with pride.

I'm fairly desensitized to the use of any word, especially on line, where nuances can be lost. I don't assume that someone has to speak a certain way to avoid offending me. I *do* get offended, but I really won't bother to engage someone about it unless I really give a shit about the person or the subject. I pick my battles. At the same time, I do try to pick my words carefully, to avoid offending as well as to reflect my own meaning and values, and I respect others who do the same.

When someone does find a word to be offensive, I wish they'd just say so, and give the offender a chance to understand and take ownership of how they affected someone else. On a website I'm on, someone recently posted something using the words f#ck and Jesus in the same sentence, which deeply offended another member. She expressed how she felt, the original poster apologized, and that was that. Simple and honest, and considerate. Everyone has a different idea of the meaning of words. Usually, no harm is meant. Things seem to go smoother when you give people the benefit of the doubt.

[MizzSabra]

I'm sure at some point, on some website, I may have offended someone with my language.

Words I use on a regular basis and don't intend on stopping:
Fuck
Cunt
Wife Beater
Bastard (Yup, my daughter is a bastard)
Cock Sucker (saved for those really special people)
That's so GAY (Hear this more from queers than straights)
Fag (I see/hear it ALL the time in queer circles, as a matter of fact I use it to describe myself)
Fat (ie: I shop at the fat girl store)
Queer
Bitch
Jesus Christ (or some variation thereof)

There are more, but it's early and I haven't had my hot chocolate yet.

I guess we've all been offended at something someone has said at some point in our lives. I don't normally get offended if someone calls me names....whatever. That's their shit to deal with, not mine. It takes much more than someone to call me a bitch or a cunt or a fag to offend me. Usually my response is "thanks and you have a great day too!"

[Queerasfck]

!I'm sure at some point, on some website, I may have offended someone with my language.

Words I use on a regular basis and don't intend on stopping:
Fuck
Cunt
Wife Beater
Bastard (Yup, my daughter is a bastard)
Cock Sucker (saved for those really special people)
That's so GAY (Hear this more from queers than straights)
Fag (I see/hear it ALL the time in queer circles, as a matter of fact I use it to describe myself)
Fat (ie: I shop at the fat girl store)
Queer
Bitch
Jesus Christ (or some variation thereof)

There are more, but it's early and I haven't had my hot chocolate yet.

I guess we've all been offended at something someone has said at some point in our lives. I don't normally get offended if someone calls me names....whatever. That's their shit to deal with, not mine. It takes much more than someone to call me a bitch or a cunt or a fag to offend me. Usually my response is "thanks and you have a great day too!"



The only word that really offends Sabra--WALMART!!

[MizzSabra]

!

The only word that really offends Sabra--WALMART!!

:overreaction: It is true. Walmart sends shivers down my spine.

[weatherboi]

I'm sure at some point, on some website, I may have offended someone with my language.

Words I use on a regular basis and don't intend on stopping:
Fuck
Cunt
Wife Beater
Bastard (Yup, my daughter is a bastard)
Cock Sucker (saved for those really special people)
That's so GAY (Hear this more from queers than straights)
Fag (I see/hear it ALL the time in queer circles, as a matter of fact I use it to describe myself)
Fat (ie: I shop at the fat girl store)
Queer
Bitch
Jesus Christ (or some variation thereof)

There are more, but it's early and I haven't had my hot chocolate yet.

I guess we've all been offended at something someone has said at some point in our lives. I don't normally get offended if someone calls me names....whatever. That's their shit to deal with, not mine. It takes much more than someone to call me a bitch or a cunt or a fag to offend me. Usually my response is "thanks and you have a great day too!"



I can certainly relate to the bold part of the statement. I usually say the same thing as I am dodging a beer can or a 32oz. styrofoam cup of toothachingly sweet ass iced tea that some redneck threw at me from a truck that sits taller than my house!! LOL

Name calling, and words people choose to use in their vocabulary does not bother me. I do try to watch the words I post because I realize words can be triggers for some folks.

[apretty]

i don't think i'm going to ever get used to hearing, 'that's so gay'. i cringe. i ask for 'clarification' in the nicest way possible.

i love CUNT. (and PUSSY) and the terms feel empowering/affirming to me. calling someone a C is a lot different than just saying the word, 'cunt' or, referencing my own *flower*, however (plus to refrain would be asking me to give up a lot of my favorite bedroom talk).

i do say the rape-word for situations that wouldn't really be considered *sexual assualt/hate crime*. rethinking that, not that i won't say it in the future but am considering what Arwen posted, here. though, i have to say that i feel like it IS the definition of re-victimization when some hateful little man (rush), uses it as slang. i do feel like *MEN* of power and privilege should NEVER use RAPE, especially not to further their political agenda. (makes me SO mad)

(i listen to howard stern, clearly people are able to listen to howard stern and also be sensitive with regards to language.)

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I am with Sabra I have my language that I used and don't intend to stop using

I have a huge list of words I use but I shall spare y'all with the horrid list

[Just_G]

I don't really think anyone is asking anyone to STOP using words and language that might be a part of their every day vocabulary per se....I think what is being asked is that you (the general you) be more conscious of those around you (again, the general you) that might be offended by certain words or phrases.

Trust me, I cuss like a sailor :wtf: and then some...so cussing is not one of the things that offends me. It is the blatant name calling, i.e. using the term retard to talk about someone slow or that did something stupid, or like when I pull what I call a "Mcgyver" and fix something by an odd means...my uncle calls it "n*-rigged". I hate that kind of stuff!! :badmood:

Some people can just be so inconsiderate. :rant:

[MizzSabra]

I don't really think anyone is asking anyone to STOP using words and language that might be a part of their every day vocabulary per se....I think what is being asked is that you (the general you) be more conscious of those around you (again, the general you) that might be offended by certain words or phrases.

Trust me, I cuss like a sailor :wtf: and then some...so cussing is not one of the things that offends me. It is the blatant name calling, i.e. using the term retard to talk about someone slow or that did something stupid, or like when I pull what I call a "Mcgyver" and fix something by an odd means...my uncle calls it "n*-rigged". I hate that kind of stuff!! :badmood:

Some people can just be so inconsiderate. :rant:

In effect this becomes censorship (which I am totally against) and me having to monitor other people's feelings. Part of me feels that people have become SO politically correct that you can't say anything without offending someone.

If I find something that offends me (believe me, it takes a LOT) I just pass it by almost every single time. Why? Because it's not MY truth that's being written, it's someone else's and who am I to tell them NOT to say something? I may disagree, but they still have the right to say it.

Offensive to me: "Don't think, just sit there and be pretty." THAT is offensive to ME. And yes, I've had gfs say that to me. Abusive, yes. Offensive, yes. Did I tell them to fuck off? You bet.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Censorship, that's the word I was looking for, thank Sabra

[Just_G]

In effect this becomes censorship (which I am totally against) and me having to monitor other people's feelings. Part of me feels that people have become SO politically correct that you can't say anything without offending someone.

If I find something that offends me (believe me, it takes a LOT) I just pass it by almost every single time. Why? Because it's not MY truth that's being written, it's someone else's and who am I to tell them NOT to say something? I may disagree, but they still have the right to say it.

Offensive to me: "Don't think, just sit there and be pretty." THAT is offensive to ME. And yes, I've had gfs say that to me. Abusive, yes. Offensive, yes. Did I tell them to fuck off? You bet.




I totally get what you are saying Sabra, trust me I do. I guess the way I put it didn't come across how I wanted it to. The second paragraph of what I wrote should have been tied in with the first one. (I know what I am trying to say, but can't seem to word it the best way when typing. :nerd:)
I would more consider it like a common courtesy (not saying that you have none of that, so please don't take it that way) to not use certain terms around certain people when say, standing around in a group of friends. Like if I was talking to my friends, and one of which is Jewish, I would not say something like "man, I really jewed that guy down on the price of that car". They would be mortified. (as would I, because that is not terminology I personally use...but am using it as an example here).

I get that you see it as censorship:), but I guess I see it differently. It's all good:).

And trust me, I am one of the least PC people around sometimes. :winky:

[Arwen]

For me, it is more about self-censorship. G's example was a good one.

It's also about knowing your audience. The C word offends some and not others. It's not a word I'm going to use in church(not that I'm Christian even) but I am not going to set out to intentionally offend.

If I know someone doesn't like something (like say...Wal-Mart) then I will self-censor myself to avoid that word.

There are terms that set me off internally. I may not address them with the person ( working on that ability), but I will mark them on my internal list. :)

So, for me, self-censorship and respecting those I care about is more important than just speaking my mind and saying whatever I want.

I am not saying that is what others ARE doing. I am saying that is what I am not doing. :)

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Sabra mentioned something about people being so PC and I agree, alot have become so PC that to me IMO that it borders on censorship.

To me some people are just too sensitive nowadays, EVERYTHING offends them and those are the type of people I stay away from, I tend to stay in my own circle of people where bluntness and honesty reign supreme and noone gets hurts.

[MizzSabra]

For me, it is more about self-censorship. G's example was a good one.

It's also about knowing your audience. The C word offends some and not others. It's not a word I'm going to use in church(not that I'm Christian even) but I am not going to set out to intentionally offend.

If I know someone doesn't like something (like say...Wal-Mart) then I will self-censor myself to avoid that word.

There are terms that set me off internally. I may not address them with the person ( working on that ability), but I will mark them on my internal list. :)

So, for me, self-censorship and respecting those I care about is more important than just speaking my mind and saying whatever I want.

I am not saying that is what others ARE doing. I am saying that is what I am not doing. :)


It is well known my hatred for Wal-Mart ;) But people talk about it all the time and the word itself doesn't really bother me...what bothers me more is that people support Wal-Mart and their unfair business practices and their complete takeover of towns, effectively destroying them. /end rant heh

I do respect people I care about and I can do that and still speak my mind. Would I say Jesus fucking Christ in front of my grandma? Probably not. If someone asked me "how do I look in this?" I'm not gonna lie if it looks bad. But I'm more likely to be more gentle in my delivery.

I know, I'm a big ole UN-PC pain in the ass.....but some people actually like that I am so blunt because I say things other people only wish they could say.

[apretty]

(not directed to anyone, here...)

i hate being called PC, as if that's where the discussion ends. i hate it when anyone tries to reduce what is right and wrong to some kind of "correctness", political or otherwise. i am subversive and edgy, i just don't like stupidity, promise!

[violaine]

normal-

whenever the word is presented as the only option to be- and it's not exactly a realistic, natural, or even desirable course.

[hippieflowergirl]

"Crazy bitch."

You ain't seen crazy til you call me that.


it's like an invitation.... :twitch:

[Arwen]

I do respect people I care about and I can do that and still speak my mind. Would I say Jesus fucking Christ in front of my grandma? Probably not. If someone asked me "how do I look in this?" I'm not gonna lie if it looks bad. But I'm more likely to be more gentle in my delivery.

I know, I'm a big ole UN-PC pain in the ass.....but some people actually like that I am so blunt because I say things other people only wish they could say.


Actually, I think PC and honest are getting confused in this conversation. Thanks to folks like Limbaugh, Politically Correct speech and behaviour has taken quite the beating.

PC, to me, is the idea that it is not okay to call someone by a racial epitath. I'll use a Texas one. It would be very very PI (politically incorrect) of me to call someone a lazy wetback. For those who are not familiar with that ugly term, that refers specifically to those of Mexican heritage and infers that they swam the Rio Grande to come illegally into the US. It is an ugly racist term and I put it in the same category as Gerry and Kyke and Wop and Raghead and Jew and Gypsy and the N word.

Now, if someone is being lazy and they are of Mexican heritage, I could most certainly call them lazy. To add "wetback" to that turns it into a racial slur. That's not okay in my book. Nothing makes that kind of comment okay. There is no amount of honesty or bluntness that can make that okay for me.

Honesty is telling me the dress makes me look fat. Ugly is telling me that the dress makes me look like a fat cow.

I doubt MizzSabra is talking about being ugly in this case.

(not directed to anyone, here...)

i hate being called PC, as if that's where the discussion ends. i hate it when anyone tries to reduce what is right and wrong to some kind of "correctness", political or otherwise. i am subversive and edgy, i just don't like stupidity, promise!

I think apretty says it perfectly.

And PC is used (and is being used here, I think) to try to negate why some words will never be okay to say.

And I'm not talking about the C word. That's one I personally reserve for women who earn it (and I don't mean it like Dusa or any who have reclaimed it mean it.)

I'm talking about words that hold more negative emotional charge than can ever be cleared from them. Retarded is one of those (no offense to those who are working to claim that so the pain is negated) for me. I dislike that word intensely for a lot of very personal reasons.

So can we agree not to hide behind "I'm not PC" or "I am PC" and really discuss what these word choices mean for us? I love that we have so many strenuous and strong voices here. I love that we do not agree. I love that we can not agree and still have these chewy, meaty (or tofu-y for the veggie crowd) discussions.

[Gemme]

Actually, I think PC and honest are getting confused in this conversation. Thanks to folks like Limbaugh, Politically Correct speech and behaviour has taken quite the beating.

PC, to me, is the idea that it is not okay to call someone by a racial epitath. I'll use a Texas one. It would be very very PI (politically incorrect) of me to call someone a lazy wetback. For those who are not familiar with that ugly term, that refers specifically to those of Mexican heritage and infers that they swam the Rio Grande to come illegally into the US. It is an ugly racist term and I put it in the same category as Gerry and Kyke and Wop and Raghead and Jew and Gypsy and the N word.

Now, if someone is being lazy and they are of Mexican heritage, I could most certainly call them lazy. To add "wetback" to that turns it into a racial slur. That's not okay in my book. Nothing makes that kind of comment okay. There is no amount of honesty or bluntness that can make that okay for me.

Honesty is telling me the dress makes me look fat. Ugly is telling me that the dress makes me look like a fat cow.

I doubt MizzSabra is talking about being ugly in this case.



I think apretty says it perfectly.

And PC is used (and is being used here, I think) to try to negate why some words will never be okay to say.

And I'm not talking about the C word. That's one I personally reserve for women who earn it (and I don't mean it like Dusa or any who have reclaimed it mean it.)

I'm talking about words that hold more negative emotional charge than can ever be cleared from them. Retarded is one of those (no offense to those who are working to claim that so the pain is negated) for me. I dislike that word intensely for a lot of very personal reasons.

So can we agree not to hide behind "I'm not PC" or "I am PC" and really discuss what these word choices mean for us? I love that we have so many strenuous and strong voices here. I love that we do not agree. I love that we can not agree and still have these chewy, meaty (or tofu-y for the veggie crowd) discussions.


Thank you for this post. I agree that the two terms were getting kind of convoluted and confused.

I have a question...or maybe not. Bear with me, as this is where I express my ignorance. To me, and granted....it's not my culture or heritage....but I did not realize that Gypsy might be an offensive term. If it were combined with something (like your lazy etc example), I could see it. But, to me, Gypsies are a beautiful, free people not bound by the same material ties that most of us are, but stronger than most of us in terms of familial ties. I see them as human butterflies moving through life.

I know that I've made reference to you....your hair specifically....as Gypsy hair. Absolutely feel free to engage me outside of this thread if you'd rather, but please note that I never meant it to be offensive, if it was.

This thread is making me THINK during my day to day routine. I went to say something earlier....I can't even remember what it was...but I stopped myself and made an effort to rethink the thought so that it would be more appropriate. That's where it needs to start for me, because what swirls about inside my head always finds its way out eventually. It's definitely one of the most thought-provoking threads I've participated in...for me....in years.

Thank you, 'dusa.

[Arwen]

but I did not realize that Gypsy might be an offensive term. If it were combined with something (like your lazy etc example), I could see it. But, to me, Gypsies are a beautiful, free people not bound by the same material ties that most of us are, but stronger than most of us in terms of familial ties. I see them as human butterflies moving through life.


I did not know Gypsy was an ugly word until recently. A woman I know who is of Romany descent posted why it is an offensive term.

Now, another woman, also of Romany descent, posted back on that post (it was on an author's blog) about why she DID like the term "gypsy".

Like you, Gemme, I see them as a beautiful, free tribe. However, the word "gypsy" was synonymous with "thief" and "lazy" and "untrustworthy" in many places.

So it's a word I'm trying to drop from my vocabulary. You may call me that as much as you like. I am not offended by the word. And I adore you for caring enough to ask!

[Darth Denkay]

I very much agree that we seem to be conflating respect with censorship. To use my previous example, someone comments that someone else "obviously didn't take their prozac today." That is offensive to me and I will explain it to them. At this point no harm no foul. If however, the person disregards my request to not use the phrase, then I feel disrespected. There are so many other ways to make the same point that aren't offensive - my concern is not the content but the wording.

Communication is hard. We try to keep forums safe but if words or phrases continue to be used that are offensive to some then it no longer becomes safe for them. From there the individual may - understandably - refrain from participating in a dialogue. They are in effect being silenced. I think the expectation that people grow a tougher skin is unreasonable. We all come from different places, our histories have defined our perceptions and created words/phrases that hurt us. To say that we need to grow a tougher skin is basically saying we need to get over it because the other person can't be bothered to listen and take us seriously.

A reference was made that some people just seem to be offended by everything. I don't believe it is my right to determine what someone finds offensive or not. In the case of offensive statements I don't believe the person expressing being offended should be questioned. Words do hurt, and part of developing and maintaining a safe place where all have a voice is refraining from making statements that you know will be offensive.

[Arwen]

Communication is hard. We try to keep forums safe but if words or phrases continue to be used that are offensive to some then it no longer becomes safe for them. From there the individual may - understandably - refrain from participating in a dialogue. They are in effect being silenced. I think the expectation that people grow a tougher skin is unreasonable. We all come from different places, our histories have defined our perceptions and created words/phrases that hurt us. To say that we need to grow a tougher skin is basically saying we need to get over it because the other person can't be bothered to listen and take us seriously.

A reference was made that some people just seem to be offended by everything. I don't believe it is my right to determine what someone finds offensive or not. In the case of offensive statements I don't believe the person expressing being offended should be questioned. Words do hurt, and part of developing and maintaining a safe place where all have a voice is refraining from making statements that you know will be offensive.

I think that the above bolded in red part should be part and parcel of the TOS/FAQ/Community Statement.

I wish I could say that I've always lived my life adhering to that principle. I am a late "kindness" bloomer. I am trying to make up for lost kindness though. :)

Seriously, this was so very well said.

Today at work, a co-worker asked me if I thought our customers were being "retarded". I told him that wasn't a word I chose to use. He said he only used it for people who were being stupid or lazy. I told him that I chose to call those people stupid and lazy rather than equate retarded with being only stupid and lazy.

I think I got through to him. Thanks to everyone who has posted in this thread. You helped me do that today.

[LadyFlamezzz]

First off , I have met many of you and ya know i just adore ya ...with that said let me add this to this thread. "I" have attempted over the last several years to be PC. Sometimes I manage just fine but then other times i fk up royally. The folks that know me , know my heart is in the right place unless someone was in my face yelling profanities at me or went to physically attack me I'm kinda of a sweet heart,lol
With all that said...

I have to give up and just be me and if i slip i will make my apologies if need be but I cannot any longer put restraints on "me" or my own style of language and yes i have my own style,because it seems that even though I have done my very best at trying to make sure NO one is offended
folks still get offended... it gives me a pain and I won't bother with telling y'all where,lol

In conclusion "look at me being all proper and shit" we are all gonna say things we shouldn't say at some point. period!
We just have to try and not do it repeatedly or vindictively or do it just being an ass!

sign
Me the sometimes improper PC person "never intentionally" to hurt anyone though!

Ps i do think that people are more "up" on what's PC correct in larger cities.

:flowers:

[weatherboi]

When someone uses the word Ghetto to describe something!! Drives me crazy!!

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Oh wait I found something that offends me, seeing someone type or say: dumb redneck

ahem, I am one and I am far from dumb

[Gemme]

I did not know Gypsy was an ugly word until recently. A woman I know who is of Romany descent posted why it is an offensive term.

Now, another woman, also of Romany descent, posted back on that post (it was on an author's blog) about why she DID like the term "gypsy".

Like you, Gemme, I see them as a beautiful, free tribe. However, the word "gypsy" was synonymous with "thief" and "lazy" and "untrustworthy" in many places.

So it's a word I'm trying to drop from my vocabulary. You may call me that as much as you like. I am not offended by the word. And I adore you for caring enough to ask!


I've always associated Gypsies with those of Romanian descent but I found something on Irish Gypsies and I had a :brightbulb: moment that any nomad tribe has probably been labeled a band of Gypsies.

Thank you for sharing your process of how you came to decide to not use that term.

[suebee]

I've always believed that it wasn't the word "gypsy" itself that was offensive so much as words such as "gypped", to mean cheated - referring to the stereotypical picture of all gypsies as thieves.

[apretty]

This just happened today where someone who claims to love, worship and adore ALL Femmes referred to one of them as a pig.

--June

or how about the (very large) butch that makes references to the SIZE of a larger femme?

i think that you should name names so that i can send an xmas card all infected with my current bout of (not really, but it sounds dramatic) swine flu.

:flyingpig:

[apretty]

I digress here, but I sat in the presence of someone once that expounded on what made someone an "A" list Femme. First thing on the list? Thin. Of course, according to this person, an "A" list Femme could only be had by an "A" list Butch who should be in this order 1) Thin 2) Rich

Oh, Jesus. The things we do to each other in the name of heirarchy. For the record, I am not a fan of the threads devoted to the love of big folks, when I know that many in our community would be all up someone's ass if they started one expounding the beauty of thin folks. And that's June's opinion as a community member FWIW. Have at it ;)

I'll see your :flyingpig: and raise you a :badger:

i totally get your point on the thin-empowering-thread. but, fact is--the fat-lacking peoples aren't a disenfranchised group. does this make a difference, or no? just curious. i am fuzzyheaded from this faux-swine flu, so i'm sans piss and/or vinegar.

ps. i'm not a super huge fan of the fatgirl threads because they feel a little woo-woo to me and i'm more than my size, i'm my size in addition to lots of other stuff, but it's not the end-all be all. plus, i am not satisfied with my current weight. i fluctuate a lot and i do weight-watchers (not in the last couple of months) and i go for periods of exercising and not exercising--either way, i am interested in my *health* in relation to *my personal* size and it's a (huge fucking) battle. but, again--it begins and ends with my loving myself. today. currently. at this size. /rant. still, i think it (the big folks threads) has the potential to be some amazing space when you come from a place (in real life) where "the fat" is super hush-hush and never mentioned...

:bigladybug:

ps. i love pigs, i don't even eat pork!

[Queerasfck]

i totally get your point on the thin-empowering-thread. but, fact is--the fat-lacking peoples aren't a disenfranchised group. does this make a difference, or no? just curious. i am fuzzyheaded from this faux-swine flu, so i'm sans piss and/or vinegar.

ps. i'm not a super huge fan of the fatgirl threads because they feel a little woo-woo to me and i'm more than my size, i'm my size in addition to lots of other stuff, but it's not the end-all be all. plus, i am not satisfied with my current weight. i fluctuate a lot and i do weight-watchers (not in the last couple of months) and i go for periods of exercising and not exercising--either way, i am interested in my *health* in relation to *my personal* size and it's a (huge fucking) battle. but, again--it begins and ends with my loving myself. today. currently. at this size. /rant. still, i think it (the big folks threads) has the potential to be some amazing space when you come from a place (in real life) where "the fat" is super hush-hush and never mentioned...

:bigladybug:

ps. i love pigs, i don't even eat pork!

I'm eating Ben and Jerry's Peanut Butter Cup ice cream right now. Want some???

[WILDCAT]

I'm eating Ben and Jerry's Peanut Butter Cup ice cream right now. Want some???

OK, question here. To me this response "seemed flippant".

No offense EzeeTiger, and you and apretty might be very close for all I know and this is just fun joking between you two.

But, to ME... I saw apretty poor her guts out, talking about something very personally vulnerable, as it is to many - to be dismissed by what appears to be a form of mocking, by dangling ice cream in front of someone stating they struggle. I don't get the point of this post, thus. Apretty stated she was not satisifed with her current weight and it is a (huge fucking) battle. As my weight is with me, and I'm sure others as well here.

So, am I too sensitive and overprotective? If someone said, "I don't care what size I am" and then someone offered ice cream, I would feel completely different about it. But, this felt hurtful somehow.

Hope it is OK that I used this example. I felt I couldn't get past it. If you or anyone could help me understand why this would not be seen as possibly hurtful - then please do.

Sincerely,
WILDCAT

[apretty]

I'm eating Ben and Jerry's Peanut Butter Cup ice cream right now. Want some???

feeder! and thanks, i really didn't need that dairy!

thanks Wildcat, EZ is being as sensitive as he can (which ain't a lot). :)

[Queerasfck]

OK, question here. To me this response "seemed flippant".

No offense EzeeTiger, and you and apretty might be very close for all I know and this is just fun joking between you two.

But, to ME... I saw apretty poor her guts out, talking about something very personally vulnerable, as it is to many - to be dismissed by what appears to be a form of mocking, by dangling ice cream in front of someone stating they struggle. I don't get the point of this post, thus. Apretty stated she was not satisifed with her current weight and it is a (huge fucking) battle. As my weight is with me, and I'm sure others as well here.

So, am I too sensitive and overprotective? If someone said, "I don't care what size I am" and then someone offered ice cream, I would feel completely different about it. But, this felt hurtful somehow.

Hope it is OK that I used this example. I felt I couldn't get past it. If you or anyone could help me understand why this would not be seen as possibly hurtful - then please do.

Sincerely,
WILDCAT

Dear WILDCAT,

Yeah, we're kinda close.

Thanks,

Ezee

[WILDCAT]

feeder! and thanks, i really didn't need that dairy!

thanks Wildcat, EZ is being as sensitive as he can (which ain't a lot). :)

OK, perhaps then I should wait and see responses. I apologize. (I initially was going to state you two could be partners for all I know!)

:builder:


PEACE! :innocent:

[Queerasfck]

feeder! and thanks, i really didn't need that dairy!

thanks Wildcat, EZ is being as sensitive as he can (which ain't a lot). :)

where thread for me--insensitive, caveman butch?? UGH.

[apretty]

OK, perhaps then I should wait and see responses. I apologize. (I initially was going to state you two could be partners for all I know!)

:builder:


PEACE! :innocent:

sorry, Wildcat, i didn't even consider that that was a 'fat comment' because i know EZ so well and he's just not like that (we are partners, living together and all that good stuff). i would have probably said something too, being sensitive to that kind of thing. thank you for your thoughtfulness. :)

[WILDCAT]

sorry, Wildcat, i didn't even consider that that was a 'fat comment' because i know EZ so well and he's just not like that (we are partners, living together and all that good stuff). i would have probably said something too, being sensitive to that kind of thing. thank you for your thoughtfulness. :)

Smiling here. I DO feel a bit embarrassed. Yep! I thought "what if these two are partners"? However, my other protective and sensitive side took over and thought, "ouch, that felt like a kick in the gut". Well, my issues and it was being discussed here. I admired your post on your personal take - responding to June's post. (Liked your post too June!)

This is why it is good that we discuss these kinds of things. We're just writing and I certainly don't realize who all knows who and "how". See, now I know with [you two] the response was really about "acceptance", which is a beautiful thing!

The weight issue is so loaded in our society - and as some have posted here, comes through on the site in ways not always comfortable for all.
__

I did "pause" to see if someone was going to stand up somehow, (you or a friend to be exact - you seem to be "apretty strong woman"). I just didn't wait LONG ENOUGH!

My bad... I distain folks ripping on heavier folks.

:bowdown:

Wildcat

*Thank you so much for understanding and the feedback. I really appreciate that! Thanks to you too, EZ!! Enjoy your holidays!! :stocking:

[MsDemeanor]

Gee, if every potential misunderstanding or misinterpretation or just questioning intent could be handled in the manner of the last series of posts, we'd all end up being nice to each other!!!!!

[MsDemeanor]

Offensive to me: "Don't think, just sit there and be pretty." THAT is offensive to ME. And yes, I've had gfs say that to me.

I can not possibly even begin to imagine that anyone who knows anything about you would ever dare to say that to you.

[WILDCAT]

Gee, if every potential misunderstanding or misinterpretation or just questioning intent could be handled in the manner of the last series of posts, we'd all end up being nice to each other!!!!!

I know, I "hate" being nice.

So, MsD - imagine that!!?? Where's your political thread? I am really missing those here?!


Sincerely,
WC

[MsDemeanor]

Sorry, Wildcat, I've been up to my eyeballs in stuff and crap and shit and things for the past couple of months. Perhaps things will settle down a bit in another month or so.

It's nice to know that I've been missed, kinda makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

[MizzSabra]

I can not possibly even begin to imagine that anyone who knows anything about you would ever dare to say that to you.



That's why the 2 people who said it to me are exs. :D

[Arwen]

Wicket said:
A reference was made that some people just seem to be offended by everything. I don't believe it is my right to determine what someone finds offensive or not. In the case of offensive statements I don't believe the person expressing being offended should be questioned. Words do hurt, and part of developing and maintaining a safe place where all have a voice is refraining from making statements that you know will be offensive.


I woke up thinking about this statement. I wanted to address one piece of this or rather one important person in that scenario above.

The person who is offended needs to have the courage to say something to the person who said the offending term. As has been pointed out by many of us, we do not always know when a word is offensive. So being told in a frank and gentle way is important.

I do have to tell you that the co-worker I said something about the word retarded said something to another co=worker who used the term later that day. I don't know what was said because i was in the middle of helping a customer, but I did hear the 2nd person say "retarded."

Now, the other co-worker may have said "That's not a nice thing and here's why" or more likely he said, "Don't say that where she can hear you." Either way is fine as long as they learn to eliminate that word within my hearing.

Who knows...maybe they will realize why it is wrong to equate the word retard with lazy and stupid. :D

I can hope. I can also hope that when someone tells me a word offends them or something I've done offends them that I can think and act instead of kneejerk and react. That's not a pretty sight when I do that.

[julieisafemme]

Ok this is a very personal pet peeve of mine about language and popular use of it. I hear lots of times people say "oh I am so OCD" about this or that. It bugs me for a few reasons. The first is the correct way to say it is "I am so OC" obsessive compulsive, not I am so obsessive compulsive disorder. The other reason is that I have OCD and have lived with it for most of my life. It is a lot more than cleaning. The pain that is associated with the compulsions (cleaning, hand washing, counting) is terrible. The obsessions that cause the compulsions are exhausting. I am mentally ill or crazy. I am reclaiming those words and often use the c word to describe myself (crazy). Having any kind of mental illness it stigmatizing. When I hear someone joking about being a fanatic housekeeper and equating that with OCD it makes me feel invisible.

[Arwen]

Ok this is a very personal pet peeve of mine about language and popular use of it. I hear lots of times people say "oh I am so OCD" about this or that. It bugs me for a few reasons. The first is the correct way to say it is "I am so OC" obsessive compulsive, not I am so obsessive compulsive disorder. The other reason is that I have OCD and have lived with it for most of my life. It is a lot more than cleaning. The pain that is associated with the compulsions (cleaning, hand washing, counting) is terrible. The obsessions that cause the compulsions are exhausting. I am mentally ill or crazy. I am reclaiming those words and often use the c word to describe myself (crazy). Having any kind of mental illness it stigmatizing. When I hear someone joking about being a fanatic housekeeper and equating that with OCD it makes me feel invisible.

Thank you for saying this. This is a term I actually use more than necessary. I use it in a joking way a lot. I will work on remembering that this is not a toss-away word but a very real affliction for some people in this world.

So thanks for taking the time and having the courage to put that out there, Julie.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I struggle all the time with oral communication. It takes me alot of courage to post online here. What I say and what I mean sometimes comes out wrong, or what I mean is read differently by others, and they get so angry. It boggles my mind because I really am lost on what is so upsetting. And I can pretty much guarantee that I don't mean any harm by what I am saying. I just struggle with the words & reading comprehension. Dyslexia does that to me.

That is what my real life is like. That is why I got and still get called retard. I hate some words like stupid, lazy, and retard. I also hate confrontation. It just is that people don't understand me. I feel so isolated sometimes. And sometimes I just stop trying. It is one thing to be forgiving. It is another to really understand.

I hope this makes sense.

Andrew

[Dragonfly]

As human beings, no one can be perfect. Things get said and misunderstood. IMHO it is the reaction given to those mistakes. By others who hear/ read the mistakes and also by the person saying it to begin with. It isnt censorship to express your thoughts and opinions with consideration for other's feelings. It isn't about political correct to express offense to things and explain why. What causes a breakdown in communication, feeling welcome or safe to post, and comfortable to be valued for your opinion is the Over-reactions to it. There is a good way to handle bad feelings I think....

:gimmehug: Andrew: I hope more tolerance and understanding (with loving compassion) flows your way than the name calling... and I wish for you to find a way to allow the positive people to out shine the negative when you look around you....

[SuperFemme]

I have no impulse control and absolutely NO FILTER.
This happened with my head bump, and I have struggled to finesse the lack of impulse and the lack of filter to make myself fit for human consumption.
Still, it is up to me. The world need not bend around my brain injury, my brain injury must in fact bend around the world.

I like cheese. I love Ponies. I get called names and it makes me laugh. In my head I am thinking "Oh honey, you have no idea".

[WolfyOne]

I have no impulse control and absolutely NO FILTER.
This happened with my head bump, and I have struggled to finesse the lack of impulse and the lack of filter to make myself fit for human consumption.
Still, it is up to me. The world need not bend around my brain injury, my brain injury must in fact bend around the world.

I like cheese. I love Ponies. I get called names and it makes me laugh. In my head I am thinking "Oh honey, you have no idea".





Reading what you wrote(in red) made me remember something I read painted on a wall. It said, if it is to be, it is up to me. If we let every little thing that is written or said bother us, we'd walk around angry all the time. Laughter is good for the soul, so lets laugh as you do when someone wants to provoke us.

Oh and I'd call you a name right now, but I can't think of any good ones. So, if it's all the same to you, I'll just call you Adele.

[SuperFemme]

Reading what you wrote(in red) made me remember something I read painted on a wall. It said, if it is to be, it is up to me. If we let every little thing that is written or said bother us, we'd walk around angry all the time. Laughter is good for the soul, so lets laugh as you do when someone wants to provoke us.

Oh and I'd call you a name right now, but I can't think of any good ones. So, if it's all the same to you, I'll just call you Adele.


Awww. Wolfy! You made my eyes leak.
The people that know me and love me accept me. Warts and all.
I'm blessed to be able to count a handful of people who love my swiss cheese.
BTW, I want you to know that I'd never call you late for dinner!

[Random]

I struggle with this issue..

It feels like such a slippery slope to me...


On one hand I think that we as a society can become too *polite* too careful.. We want to make sure that no one is offended...

But someone is going to be offended by something.. Period..

Where does it end?

Art?
Film?
Music?
Books?

People have both fought for and against the right to censor these things..

Shouldn't it be up to each indivdual to decide (i hate that word, I have to type it three times EVERY TIME to get it right) what is right for them...

But on the other hand... Words have power.. to lift up and to tear down..

I think for me... Anytime ANY word is used in a negitive way.. then I hate it being used that way... and of course I express that feeling.. rather strongly...

There is a book... For some reason it came into my mind while I was reading this thread...

I can't remember the name of it.. It's about a society that frowns on strong emotions, strong colors, over dramatic use of language.. Everything is for the good of the community... Everyone has classes.. when you get to a certain age, then you do a certain thing.. The main charater is a boy who is going to become the keeper of memories and feelings.. He will hold all the stronger emotions for the comunity.. So they can be pure...

They say that they love, but they really don't know what love is, they say anger, but they don't know what it is...

They have traded the *flavor/passion* of life for safety and the well being of the community.. If a baby won't sleep through the night, then it's put to sleep.. If someone threatens the peacefulness of the comunity then they are given the needle..

For a book that made such an inpression on me,I can't ever remember it's freaking name!!!!!

For me.. self expression is the greatest freedom there is.. But that is a two sided coin.. If I want the right to express myself, then I have to expect that right for everyone else..

*shrug* For me.. there is no answer.. I try to be mindful of other people.. as I want them to be mindful of me... but I also have no intention of being so worried about my words, that I silence myself..000

[WILDCAT]

I have no impulse control and absolutely NO FILTER.
This happened with my head bump, and I have struggled to finesse the lack of impulse and the lack of filter to make myself fit for human consumption.
Still, it is up to me. The world need not bend around my brain injury, my brain injury must in fact bend around the world.

I like cheese. I love Ponies. I get called names and it makes me laugh. In my head I am thinking "Oh honey, you have no idea".




Well, I like people who "like cheese". I love people who LOVE PONIES! And I adore folks with a wonderful sense of humor - and you have one brilliant, beautiful mind! So, BIG HUGE HUGS to you Sister Mountain!!

So, julieisafemme - about that OCD thing. Yes, just not using the acronym phrasing correctly could/would be a trigger! I do make reference to my "OCD stuff" quite a bit. And I think it's GOOD that you use the word crazy and "reclaim" that word for yourself. I do as well.

I feel "compulsive" to explain to folks why I straighten up their rugs if they are crooked when I walk into their homes, or rearrange the kitchen chairs all perfectly around the table, etc... I usually let them know their picture on a wall is not square - and ask them if they want me to straighten that up. (I have a really good eye for that!) I guess in the clear case of art, they may have wanted it off kilter and I respect that more. Biased I know. They might need their chairs at "their own" angles artistically too!

I could go on and on. I've gotten pretty good with nonchalantly doing these things. HERE, in my place, I am on the wrong end of [my] OCD and it scares me some. I do feel overwhemled at times. (And no, I don't do this rearranging to strangers in their homes, but to family and friends who know this about me!)

However, I am sure I've said this "ODC phrase" incorrectly too at times. But, I want folks to know what I am referring to. But, to not understand how comsuming and tiring this all is and throw it out there simply as a joke... I'm really glad you spoke up here about it. Thank you.

Actually, in fact, this reminds me of one of my troublesome things here in large community writing. For example, I know "alot" is not one word. When folks say they HATE seeing that or it "drives them nuts", I've had to be really thoughtful then. Now, is it their own OCD talking? Or, just bitching for fun and fluff. I'll tell you how I take it (like a thread about hating people's improper grammar, typo's, etc... "DUMBING DOWN", that is a good one)... It feels so incredibly judgmental to me. To not consider that someone might be head injured, have a different level of education, not speak English as their primary language, have developmental disorders, or birth defects, on and on, etc... To me, actually, "a LOT", is a parcel of land, with a very specific dimension footage-wise. (My humor, I know it has more than one meaning.) So, forgive me when I do that, and I hope it doesn't ruin anyone's day. And yes, once I believe I DID write "irregardless", so shoot me. I may have had a migraine that day. But, the main point is, this is hurtful to many I think for all of these reasons I mentioned above and keeps folks from writing and creates fear for being a part of our experience here - for these "tearing apart" concepts of nit-picking. Not that anyone can't do a thread like that here. That's fine. I'm saying how it could possibly make folks feel, for everyone has imperfections for reasons we do not always know about. And last I read here, we didn't have to have a doctorate in writing/literature to belong and participate.

And yes, I was raised by my mother to stick up for the "underdogs".

My exception for the "dumbing down" sentiment would be when folks are writing hating things and not backing them up. Even when asked and asked about where they got their facts, etc... they can't or won't do it. I do not mind folks being questioned or challenged with that AT ALL.

Last thing now I must say. I will always use the word gypsy and refer to myself as such. It is a proud part of my history. I disagree that it is a negative word. My girlfriend from Romania and I have discussed this at great length. It IS often used as a racist word there - it is one of the most horrible words you could be called in the street or referred to! That is their own discimination, there. Like we have some here. To the gypsies THERE, it is horrible for them. They get profiled, not unlike some culture or racial groups do here. (You can figure them out, but I will say our best example: Queer = pedophile.)

Not debating you Arwen and I see how hard you are trying - and completely respect that. I just don't want folks to think I am being racist using that word... for to me it is a wonderful, beautiful word - in fact, brave way of being or walking through life.

YEARS back here, folks were biased against bands of gypsies too! If you didn't work in a factory or job that you absolutely hated, in order to "be seen as responsible", for 50+ years you were heavily criticized. Now, we know that some folks need and must change their careers several times - or their location in living. (And of course you do what you have to when the kids need food. Work-wise, not holding up an elderly lady on the street or robbing a liquor store!)

Some folks are nomads in spirit, or it is tradition. Not all boxcar jumpers were/are alcoholics either. Some cross country hikers and bikers are not aimless drifters. Not all homeless folks are "bums, drunks, illiterate". In fact some homeless folks I knew in N.Y.C. had IQ's so HIGH, it was stunning. Some of them had been professors at one time, etc... They just had to "leave society", as they could not or would not be part of what was "expected". What is "normal" anyway? (I realize this is not across the board for ALL people, some DO have addictions, some DID LOSE their jobs, some ARE mentally ill, etc.. that is not my point here. I'm talking about the exceptions, the ones who are world travelers, who need and require complete freedom in a way that most of us cannot understand, to go into the wild to be alone, for example... to find their most creative selves perhaps.) I don't feel like judging someone who is different than me. If someone knows how to forage for food, and cooks dandelions for lunch, or has a complete and thorough knowledge of medicinal herbs - then power to 'em, I'm happy for their chosen independence from the "expected norms" in society.

Anyway, I am proud of my gypsy spirit and love that part of me. The ONLY thing I don't like about it, is that my spirit has been trapped here for awhile. I've had some difficult circumstances the past few years. That hurts me more than anyone could imagine, and everyone who knows me then as well - is affected by this.

Thanks for allowing me to share these things. I feel better, don't you?!

Sincerely,
WILDCAT

*About the PC commenting. We are all so different. Again, we know what is insulting, usually. And good point about knowing the difference between being considerate and completely ignorant and hurtful. I don't care if someone uses words in understanding between theirselves - even here, (that I might not use here, but with friends in private - yes). If you call someone a "crazy bitch", you probaby should be friends though, and understand it is with love and humor or expect a direct confrontation - and if someone does NOT "know" that (about who are friends and whatnot), they might also question it, politely, of course. :artist:

:stillheart:

[Arwen]

There is a book... For some reason it came into my mind while I was reading this thread...

I can't remember the name of it.. It's about a society that frowns on strong emotions, strong colors, over dramatic use of language.. Everything is for the good of the community... Everyone has classes.. when you get to a certain age, then you do a certain thing.. The main charater is a boy who is going to become the keeper of memories and feelings.. He will hold all the stronger emotions for the comunity.. So they can be pure...


That's The Giver by Lois B(urton?) and it blew me away when I read it this past year for a class.

It's the first of three novels apparently. I've only read that one.

I see where you could get that energy from this thread. I really do.

However, I think it is the intent. I laughed my REAR off Saturday night while watching Robin Williams. And believe you me, the man was offensive as all get out. No really! He hit some buttons pretty hard--one of them being some stereotypes we've discussed here.

But I think if I said to you, Cyn, it makes me uncomfortable when you use the word "blue" around me (and gave you a compelling reason) that you would probably not use that word around me.

Knowing our audience. For me, it's about knowing my audience. In a large community like this, I can't know my audience that well. That's probably how smaller more intimate groups get formed (the so-called "cool kids" syndrome.)

We gravitate towards those that laugh and feel and emote like us.

Can we expect all of us here to homogenize with the rest? Nope. Not gonna happen. Because, like in The Giver, our world would become bland. But I can try not to intentionally hurt someone.

[Random]

My post went bye bye and now I'm too tired to redue it..

Will comment again tomorrow..

[Random]

That's The Giver by Lois B(urton?) and it blew me away when I read it this past year for a class.

It's the first of three novels apparently. I've only read that one.

I see where you could get that energy from this thread. I really do.

However, I think it is the intent. I laughed my REAR off Saturday night while watching Robin Williams. And believe you me, the man was offensive as all get out. No really! He hit some buttons pretty hard--one of them being some stereotypes we've discussed here.

But I think if I said to you, Cyn, it makes me uncomfortable when you use the word "blue" around me (and gave you a compelling reason) that you would probably not use that word around me.

Knowing our audience. For me, it's about knowing my audience. In a large community like this, I can't know my audience that well. That's probably how smaller more intimate groups get formed (the so-called "cool kids" syndrome.)

We gravitate towards those that laugh and feel and emote like us.

Can we expect all of us here to homogenize with the rest? Nope. Not gonna happen. Because, like in The Giver, our world would become bland. But I can try not to intentionally hurt someone.

Thank you... all my books are still packed.. (Still looking for those perfect narrow TALL bookcase)

I hear what you are saying..

It's up to us to be mindful of each other.. While being true to who we are at the core... it's actually harder than going one way or the other.. Balance is the key, I think..

You are right.. knowing your crowd is the key... I feel more comfortable being a bit ranchy with some folks than with others...

[Selenay]

That's The Giver by Lois B(urton?) and it blew me away when I read it this past year for a class.

It's the first of three novels apparently. I've only read that one.


Lois Lowry, and the trilogy is The Giver, Gathering Blue and Messenger.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Yep, I have swiss cheese for a brain. It happened from an accident when I was a day old, and dropped on my head onto a hardwood floor. My skull was cracked and some major blood vessels tore open.

It still doesn't stop ppl from calling me retard or idiot, the looks when my tic starts, or the negative responses I usually get when my words don't match what my thoughts are, or if I have a seizure in public. It hasn't happened yet.

I think it also has to do with how ppl are perceived. Superfemme is perceived one way, and I am another. If we both were laying on the ground unconscious, who do you think ppl would go to first? My bet is on Superfemme without a doubt.

I believe that most ppl fear the unknown. It was like when my adopted father had his stroke. He lost the left side of his body. One day he was walking to the mailbox using his walker, and his neighbors seeing this, waved hi to him, but did not stop to chat as was the usual. Having good health is a gift. When you don't have it, and you have chronic health problems, it changes you. You don't see life and living as the same as someone who is healthy.

[Arwen]

It's up to us to be mindful of each other.. While being true to who we are at the core... it's actually harder than going one way or the other.. Balance is the key, I think..

You are right.. knowing your crowd is the key... I feel more comfortable being a bit ranchy with some folks than with others...


So what are our obligations to one another? How do we live a life that is true to ourselves and still respectful of our fellow humans?

If I call someone a stupid redneck because they've just called me a dyke--who am I hurting, if anyone?

If I am angry at another woman and I call her a fat, stupid cow--have I insulted cows, other women and myself (since I am fat)?

I think on some level we ALL do this. I honestly do not know of anyone who doesn't react in anger and speak from that ugly place we all own.

How do I learn how to speak from that loving, joyful place? Is it necessary to do that all the time?

I think, for me, it is. I could live my life whining about how others have hurt me. Or, I can forgive them and release all that negativity in my soul to make room for better stuff.

That is one reason that I choose to seek joy. I've now layered in forgiveness for those who've intentionally hurt me. It feels good but it also feels weird. I'm not used to it yet. But I know when I engage in :gossip: I will make it the good kind rather than the hurtful kind.

[SuperFemme]

Yep, I have swiss cheese for a brain. It happened from an accident when I was a day old, and dropped on my head onto a hardwood floor. My skull was cracked and some major blood vessels tore open.

It still doesn't stop ppl from calling me retard or idiot, the looks when my tic starts, or the negative responses I usually get when my words don't match what my thoughts are, or if I have a seizure in public. It hasn't happened yet.

I think it also has to do with how ppl are perceived. Superfemme is perceived one way, and I am another. If we both were laying on the ground unconscious, who do you think ppl would go to first? My bet is on Superfemme without a doubt.

I believe that most ppl fear the unknown. It was like when my adopted father had his stroke. He lost the left side of his body. One day he was walking to the mailbox using his walker, and his neighbors seeing this, waved hi to him, but did not stop to chat as was the usual. Having good health is a gift. When you don't have it, and you have chronic health problems, it changes you. You don't see life and living as the same as someone who is healthy.

I think this is a great lesson in SELF perception. Because I have had many seizures in public Woodie. Hmm. Let me give you a few examples. One time I had a doozie of a seizure in the supermarket. When I came to the store security was pointing a gun at me.

Two other times I went from having a seizure to nobody helping, calling for help and tried to walk myself home. These two times I was arrested for *drunk in public* despite having a letter from my Neurosurgeon and a seizure card and medic alert bracelet. I blew 0.0 on the breathalyzer and then had forced blood tests. I sat in jail for over eight hours until the results came back. Without apology.

I flew to NM with my family who had decided my head injury was me being dramatic. We got off the shuttle at the car rental place and again I had a doozie. My own fucking family stepped right over me and left me laying on the cement in 102 degree weather. The shuttle driver turned me on my side and talked gently to me. He had a son with epilepsy.

In Vegas in 06 I had a seizure during the Ball at the Bash. Do you remember that? Because everybody walked right by me, and when I was taken to the ladies room by a dear friend? Bash attendee's were coming in and rolling their eyes.

The only place I experienced compassion was in my brain injury school. We all looked out for each other and had a plan of action. The teachers knew my quirks and could tell when I was going to seize. They kept a pillow and blanket in the cupboard and always made sure I didn't get hurt and that I came to in a soft, quiet and safe environment. We all did that for each other because it is kind of like a special club we are in, where only we can truly know...

So the assumption that I get some kind of pretty privilege is hurtful. At the end of the day we are the same. We have these seizures and it scares the bystanders because it is in the realm of the unknown for them. It usually traumatizes them, and then us because we hear the nasty/ignorant comments as we are trying to find our way back to our bodies.

Regardless of the bad experiences I am NOT a victim. I am a fucking MIRACLE and if one person learns something and changes their perspective after witnessing my seizure, then perhaps they will pass it on and the torch of empathy, compassion, and love will burn a little brighter. You are a miracle to Woodie. Not a victim.

I have to say that you hurt my feelings, but only for a second. Because I'm not giving them away. :byebye:

[Andrew, Jr.]

Superfemme,

Like you, I have had seizures in public. And yes, people walked overtop of me during my seizures. It was at my last job. I was left alone. Afterwards, I peed myself, and vomited. It is all apart of epilespy. I had to give a blood test to my employer to verify I wasn't drunk as well. I also had to hire a lawyer. They tried to fire me for being who and what I was for years. Then to have epilespy was just one more thing to throw in the pot. My employer also tried to have my driver's license taken away from me.

You are not understanding what it is I am trying to say. I apologise to you if I hurt you. That is not my intent. Not at all. And I am the same way as you, but I am trying to bring those who are the "norm" to our world. To build a bridge. Not to make you a victim. That is confusing to me. Perception is different to each one of us. I am very happy you found compassion. I have yet to find it within a group. I have found compassion person by person. That is it. Even in my rehab. group, each one of us was handicapped in different ways. There was no way we could have compassion for each other since we had no clue as to what compassion even was.

Anyway, my apologisies to you. I meant no harm, ugliness, or evilness. I won't be back here. I don't want to get timed out, banned, or anything else.

Andrew

[WolfyOne]

Just wanted to chime in and say what a great thread topic this is. I haven't seen one this good anywhere in a long time. Thanks for getting us started Medusa.

[Diva]

My heart goes out to SF and Andrew in light of insensitive treatment by others. Shame on those people.

In other news, I'm a flippant kinda girl (the [sometimes] "lacking seriousness" part, not the "lacking respect" part). When I was in college learning how to teach, one of the things we were "taught" was NEVER to use sarcasm. I discarded that 'rule', as I couldn't teach without it. That being said, there are 2 types of sarcasm....I don't have to tell YOU that.....there's silly sarcasm and there's hateful (hate-filled sarcasm.....which, imho, is oh~so passive-aggressive).

And I also believe there is a certain responsibility which we ALL must share in the giving and receiving of comments made to us. Sometimes, I think there are people who are just waiting to be offended. And they will look for anything and everything over which to be offended. "Chip on their shoulder" is the phrase which comes to mind. Then, of course, there are the whiners and those who are the victims....and there's ALways someone sayin' something 'wrong' to them.

I do my best to be sensitive with my own words, but I know I don't always succeed. It is our human condition, after all. If someone says things to me [repeatedly] that makes me go "hmmm....that was icky", I have no problem just stepping back from that person with no hard feelings......I have found that that works best for me. I know we can't know what that person may be going through at any given moment. And while that's all well and good, I have the responsibility to ME to not be someone else's doormat.

[SuperFemme]

First off, I want to tell Woodie that there is absolutely no need to leave the thread. You are invaluable and not going to get banned or flamed for speaking your mind.

I am not/was not offended. Perhaps my feeler were hurt but not necessarily by you Woodie. It just floored me that you think if we both had a seizure in the same time and place the *I* for some reason would be assisted first. We have such big things in common. I'm not faring any better in the world of different-ability than you. I guess I couldn't understand why you would think so? If you're up to it can you please tell me WHY you have this impression?

I would also like to point out to you gently that lots of people care about you. This community seems to wrap their arms around you in love and compassion. I'd like to hold a mirror up to you so that you could see how much you are cared about.

So please. Don't go away. Let's talk about this, it could be very enlightening and I for one am open to learning.

hugs,

SuperFemme :superman:

[MsDemeanor]

And I also believe there is a certain responsibility which we ALL must share in the giving and receiving of comments made to us. Sometimes, I think there are people who are just waiting to be offended. And they will look for anything and everything over which to be offended. "Chip on their shoulder" is the phrase which comes to mind. Then, of course, there are the whiners and those who are the victims....and there's ALways someone sayin' something 'wrong' to them.
For me, this is a part of the problem. Sadly, it takes watching the behavior repeat before one can readily identify the victims, whiners, and chipsters; you can't always see it right away, so you end up thinking that you've wronged someone when the reality is that you're dealing with someone who jumps at the opportunity to act/be hurt or offended. It makes me quite happy that no one can hear me snort or see my eyes roll when I'm in front of my computer.

[Diva]

For me, this is a part of the problem. Sadly, it takes watching the behavior repeat before one can readily identify the victims, whiners, and chipsters; you can't always see it right away, so you end up thinking that you've wronged someone when the reality is that you're dealing with someone who jumps at the opportunity to act/be hurt or offended. It makes me quite happy that no one can hear me snort or see my eyes roll when I'm in front of my computer.


Totally get THIS! And it IS sad that it takes a while to figure that out. And just as sad, I think, is that it might not even be evident to THEM until one day, that person's gonna look around them and say to themselves, "Hey! Where'd everybody go?!?!" and what they will hear back is the echo in the room.

[Gemme]

I think this is a great lesson in SELF perception. Because I have had many seizures in public Woodie. Hmm. Let me give you a few examples. One time I had a doozie of a seizure in the supermarket. When I came to the store security was pointing a gun at me.

Two other times I went from having a seizure to nobody helping, calling for help and tried to walk myself home. These two times I was arrested for *drunk in public* despite having a letter from my Neurosurgeon and a seizure card and medic alert bracelet. I blew 0.0 on the breathalyzer and then had forced blood tests. I sat in jail for over eight hours until the results came back. Without apology.

I flew to NM with my family who had decided my head injury was me being dramatic. We got off the shuttle at the car rental place and again I had a doozie. My own fucking family stepped right over me and left me laying on the cement in 102 degree weather. The shuttle driver turned me on my side and talked gently to me. He had a son with epilepsy.

In Vegas in 06 I had a seizure during the Ball at the Bash. Do you remember that? Because everybody walked right by me, and when I was taken to the ladies room by a dear friend? Bash attendee's were coming in and rolling their eyes.

The only place I experienced compassion was in my brain injury school. We all looked out for each other and had a plan of action. The teachers knew my quirks and could tell when I was going to seize. They kept a pillow and blanket in the cupboard and always made sure I didn't get hurt and that I came to in a soft, quiet and safe environment. We all did that for each other because it is kind of like a special club we are in, where only we can truly know...

So the assumption that I get some kind of pretty privilege is hurtful. At the end of the day we are the same. We have these seizures and it scares the bystanders because it is in the realm of the unknown for them. It usually traumatizes them, and then us because we hear the nasty/ignorant comments as we are trying to find our way back to our bodies.

Regardless of the bad experiences I am NOT a victim. I am a fucking MIRACLE and if one person learns something and changes their perspective after witnessing my seizure, then perhaps they will pass it on and the torch of empathy, compassion, and love will burn a little brighter. You are a miracle to Woodie. Not a victim.

I have to say that you hurt my feelings, but only for a second. Because I'm not giving them away. :byebye:


I want names, missy. Names and locations and I'll go open up a :canoworms: ("worms" = whoopass, btw) on those people. The same for Andrew.

That kind of behavior is absolutely reprehensible in my mind. Absolutely. There's no excuse for it.

Having said that, I am most definitely NOT what might be called a "pc" person. I say a LOT of things that I've begun to reevaluate and tweak since this thread started.

There is a stark difference between saying something that may or may be offensive and walking away from someone in a medical emergency situation, though. That is something I could never do.

*shakes head*

[Darth Denkay]

Arwen makes a really important point here. If I am offended by what someone posts, it is my responsibility to let that be known, and again as Arwen said, in a frank and gentle way. I think that the individual should explain what is offensive about the word/phrase as well. While I am certain that at times folks make comments that they know will be offensive but do so anyway, in the majority of the cases (I hope) the person doesn't realize that it might be taken offensively. The intention is not to be offensive, but yeah, we're all going to say stuff not realizing how it is taken by some. I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt - if something is said that bothers me I'll point it out while assuming that no ill will was intended. In this way, my point is made respectfully, no accusations thrown, and we can get on with whatever discussion was going on to begin with.



The person who is offended needs to have the courage to say something to the person who said the offending term. As has been pointed out by many of us, we do not always know when a word is offensive. So being told in a frank and gentle way is important.[QUOTE]

Slippery slope indeed. You mention various areas where censorship has been used/abused: art, film, books, music. I'm going to offer a thought, wondering if it is a useful distinction to make. The mediums you mention, as artistic expressions, are things that we generally have a choice in whether or not we view them. If we don't like a movie or book, we don't bother with them, and this affects no one except ourselves. When art is displayed, books written, music played, the intended audience is some population full of folks the artist doesn't know. SUre, some people might be offended, but this is a case where that is entirely unavoidable. Specific example - I find Howard Sterns absolutely completely offensive. I choose not to listen to him. But my being offended is nothing directed personally at me. No relationship between us, nothing personal.

To my mind this is a very different scenario than art offered to the public in general. We are a group of folks involved in dialogues between specific people. Some of us know each other in real-time, some don't but know folks well in online terms - there are relationships involved here. Real people, real names. Real feelings. I think it is different here, there should be attempts to not offend because, well, we're a community. Mistakes will be made, of course. Disagreements are going to happen. But if we try to communicate respectfully, seems as though our discussions should generally go reasonably smoothly.

Thoughts? Fair distinction?



[QUOTE=Ms Cyn;23880]I struggle with this issue..

It feels like such a slippery slope to me...


On one hand I think that we as a society can become too *polite* too careful.. We want to make sure that no one is offended...

But someone is going to be offended by something.. Period..

Where does it end?

Art?
Film?
Music?
Books?

People have both fought for and against the right to censor these things..

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

[Dragonfly]

I think that the word "whiner" can have a BIG negative result. I see when things are said about people in general "being like that" and how they are making a big To-Do about being a victim... it is harmful to the whole community. If the people you are representing when you use that word "whiner" are unable to recognize they are one, what good does it do for it to be said publically in the community forums?

What happens is a silencing in general, of people that you are probably not even talking about. No one wants to reach out for support and love if they worry that someone will label them a whiner. Psychologically speaking, a "whiner" has real feelings and are misunderstanding because they have been encouraged to feel free on these sites to be themself, share, and find acceptance and support here. Maybe they have no one to listen to them in the real world and I think the eye rolls can be "felt" if not seen.

Sometimes people are just uncomfortable and need to judge or be cold about that "whiner" person because they are just too tired to be a shoulder to another someone else. Some people may think if positive is the only type conversation then it will be a fun and pleasantly smiley place to be. But I saw that movie pleasantville. It wasn't real at all.... and it was NOT pleasant.

[Dragonfly]

Just because this was how I wanted to say it and I took myself to the red zone afterwards to make an angry rant. I regret that didn't help anything and was selfish of me. I was mad. And sad about what I was hearing/seeing. No excuse though. I still stand by what I said here.

[friskyfemme]

Great topic Medusa. I'm not usually one to use words that hurt others intentionally and rarely swear unless quite angry and provoked at that time. I wasn't raised around it and think there is little use for those words. I will say there is one word that will get me riled up in a heart beat and I will go off on the person that uses it around me. That word would be cunt and writing it here doesn't make me feel good, but if I didn't, you wouldn't know the word.
This word brings me to rage! I have a bad history related to hearing it and being called this word in a debilitating time of my life.

[friskyfemme]

Okay here is my 'offended by words' list.
(any word that slangs race, geographic orgin, religious belief or intellectual level / capacity, physical or mental disorders), asshole, bastard, bitch, cunt, fuck(er,'MF'), slut,
whore.

These are words heard/read recently. Most within this site. If you are willing to be educated and wish to be respectful take heed of what others feel/perceive as hurtful/offensive.

[friskyfemme]

Not to make light of your condition, Just_G, but this is a good example of why it's impossible to speak in such a way that no one will ever be offended. Or, to use a more personal example, several years ago I was diagnosed with ADD. It annoys the living crap out of me (no offense to sentient crap intended) when people make silly remarks about ADD, about 'ooh, bright shiny' etc. They've got some sound-bite knowledge about it (ergo, none), and have no idea what the real experience of ADD is like (frequently, quite difficult and painful.) Be that as it may, it's an annoyance, not something that offends me. Because, after all, you can't LOOK at me at tell that I have it.

Using words that are clearly derogatory and directed at body parts, skin color, (obvious) mental handicaps and the like are used way too often by a lot of people who should know better. My theory? We're lazy and as a culture have become coarsened to certain types of language. (I'm so sick of hearing the word fuck and its derivatives used as a noun, verb, adjective, and gerund I could fuckin cut a bitch.) In Medusa's example of using 'pussy/bitch' around her femme friends and that being okay is no more so than blacks referring to themselves as niggas. The argument (which Medusa didn't make, I hasten to add) that it's somehow empowering, I think, is bullshit. I think it subconsciously reinforces negative stereotypes even within the groups that are 'taking back' the word(s) at issue.

I got off track here and can't find the rails. Nevermind. :)
Thanks Bob. (Not identifying you as this type of person).
I hear you that most of the time, people offend others with words out of ignorance. I use the word 'ignorance' as a lack of an understanding/awareness of misspeaks. We all grew up in our own community's rules, morals, language, and communication in which being apart of location, place in time, and in that social network , we knew exactly what was meant/intended by others' around us. But...PEOPLE, PEOPLE, PEOPLE!!!!!

Get a clue! If someone says they are offended by what I/You said, believe it! Apologize(unless it was intended, then shame on me/you, and shut up!). Use in the same forum 'public/private' they identified the offense. If you can't act as a responsible person, go away!

[Nat]

I did have a guy ask me not to use the word "bastard" because he was born without a dad and that word hurt him every single time he heard it. I managed to never use the word around him, but occasionally it still slips out. But then I think of him and regret saying it.

Words can hurt and I am more and more aware of that the older I get. I try to be respectful.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=June;128651]Frisky. You just took away most of my vocabulary. Can you explain why asshole, fucker, bitch, cunt are problematic to you?

I get Bastard, (I still use it for special folks in my life) because of the origins of the word. Technically, my son is one because he was born out of wedlock 8^O however, when I used it, it has no reflection on the original meaning.

We have the capabilities with this software to make **** appear when people type certain words, but I wonder if that would be taking censorship too far?

For me, context means a lot:


QUOTE]



I find cunt extremely offensive, personally. Then, again, I don't much like any slang for female or male reproductive/sexual body parts. Just don't. On a website, however, I expect to see them used and I wouldn't react to usage overall, unless used to directly cut a person down (any person) or in a sexist manner. CONTEXT really does say a lot!!

I don't use foul language much in real-time. Just don't and I don't really have any kind of reason for this. Sure, If I whack a thumb with a hammer, f-u-c-k does come out of my mouth.

I also know that in my background, there was an unwritten code not to sound like the daughter of an uneducated immigrant garbage man... because that is what people expected of us.

Guess, I just try to understand what someone else migfht be feeling about certain terms and not use them here if they let me know it is offensive to them.

The key word for me in the title of the thread is flippant.... sometimes flippant gets old.

[Nat]

I curse like a sailor and I think part of that for me is the feeling of liberation from the good girl mold I still feel pressured to fit into.

But I think I'm gonna give up the foul language.

As I grow older, I am realizing that (for me) there is a correlation between respectful behavior and self-respect.

[AtLast]

"wife-beater" instead of tank top

Yeah, I've used this term, but I'm really trying to get it out of my vocabulary.

I really don't like this either. My oldest sister was with a wife-beating, cheating, alcoholic husband for 14 years and there is just not one redeeming quality about its usage to me. She left him, raised her kids (did not get one penny of child support and worked to provide for them even after remarriage, put all 3 through college/vocational school) and did remarry a great guy that loves and respects her and her kids.

Besides, some peeps look great in them and I just can't put that identification on them! My son has a great body and is a good man, husband and father. He (like most people) do not deserve to be having what they have on put in this context. Many peeps here do not deserve this, either!

[friskyfemme]

Frisky. You just took away most of my vocabulary. Can you explain why asshole, fucker, bitch, cunt are problematic to you?

I get Bastard, (I still use it for special folks in my life) because of the origins of the word. Technically, my son is one because he was born out of wedlock 8^O however, when I used it, it has no reflection on the original meaning.

We have the capabilities with this software to make **** appear when people type certain words, but I wonder if that would be taking censorship too far?

For me, context means a lot:

That X, she's a real cunt <--- Bad
My cunt itches <--- Vulgar, but not offensive (for me)

I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts on this :)
Ok, Here goes! Let me preface my response by saying all of these words have been directed toward me and my siblings in childhood by my father. Let's just say they weren't words of endearment. However, I have conditioned myself not to assume it is an intentional slur unless I have said so. I let others fight their own battles. But, I think awareness and intention are the keys for any social exchange. As in any situation, majority rules and the minority 'suck it up'. Determining which is which is the key! :)

[friskyfemme]

I curse like a sailor and I think part of that for me is the feeling of liberation from the good girl mold I still feel pressured to fit into.

But I think I'm gonna give up the foul language.

As I grow older, I am realizing that (for me) there is a correlation between respectful behavior and self-respect.
I agree with you, Nat. I actually used most of the words I listed I find offensive before I became a mom over 40 yrs ago. It was somehow liberating and empowering for me too.

However, I finally realized, I was judged by how I expressed myself. I didn't want to pass that on to my kids. My own mom's strongest cuss words are 'shit and hell'. If she was that mad we knew to 'straighten up'.

Thanks for sharing.

[Nat]

I'm also trying to become more aware of my own able-ist language (metaphorical uses of blindness, hearing, standing, etc), and I'm trying separate/balance my moral and spiritual ideas from the concepts of light and dark because I think the correlation of lightness and whiteness with goodness and the correlation of darkness and blackness with evil or badness contribute (to some extent) to unconsciously perpetuated racism.

It's hard because both of these tendencies are built on a lifetime of interrelated, built-upon thoughts which are very much culturally re-enforced.

[friskyfemme]

I do think it is fair to say that the "Majority Rules" when it comes to language on a site like this. For instance, if I was participating in a Theological site, or one geared towards parents or the participants were there primarily for support for illness, etc., I would think that we would all participate in a much different way. For me, when I am participating on this site, I often think of us as sitting at my table, and in real life, I am sometimes profane and even, vulgar. I do not however, think it's okay to use them against someone as a slur, here.
Hugs June,

The moderators and the members on this site do a good job of keeping things in check.
It is difficult sometimes to determine who is the majority because the one that is most vocal is often thought of as speaking for the majority if no one challenges them. If something is distasteful, hurtful, or a slur to someone, that person may not feel comfortable speaking up. So it goes.

[MsDemeanor]

I've developed a fondness for "asshat", which I often spell as "a$$hat" to bypass the profanity filters on some sites.

*wonders if a$$hat is offensive to milliners*

[Gemme]

I feel comfortable expressing myself in this medium as I see fit. As a result of that level of comfort, I often use profanity. Would I use that same profanity in the company of someone's grandmother? Um, no. Would I curse more if I were in the company of a bunch of sailors? No. If I were in a person's living room and I knew that s/he hated or had issues with a particular curse word, I would do my very best to avoid saying it. In someone else's world, I adapt. When someone is in my environment, I expect them to adapt to my preferences. If they can't, and it bothers me that much, then I am perfectly able and willing to show them the door.

In this medium, we're such a lovely mishmash of identities, genders, creeds, etc that it's like blending something in the blender. You have all of what you put into it, but the final result is something different, in all aspects. We all have to have a level of tolerance and acceptance when we log on here because some days we are the cursers and some days we are the squeaky cleans and those days can flip flop mighty quick.

[TruTexan]

BUMP BUMP BUMP

[JDeere]

I know this one word might be put in another thread but here goes:

Dyke, ohhh that word just irks me to the core

Retard why is that word even in existance anymore

Crazy as she is mentally messed up

Any thoughts?

[TruTexan]

for me I find the term Dyke to be offensive because I grew up being called DYKE by straight men yelling it at me meaning that they thought because I'm butch and look butch that I wanted to be a man and used in a very demeaning and derogatory way towards me and friends of mine when we were young. I'm 52 now and I still take it offensively if someone calls me a dyke. I know however that some other folks have reclaimed that word and are proud to be called a dyke and that it means something totally different to them, but for me, Don't.call.me.a.DYKE. period.
Anyone else who doesn't mind that term it's their choice, but I refuse to reclaim a derogatory word that was used towards me and be proud of it. Just my opinion.

Does anyone else have a word or words that they find offensive and other's don't? I see JD and I posted about the same time, and Yeah, don't call me crazy either I hate that word or the word Retard. Those words need to get gone from our vocabulary.

[Kobi]

Lesbians reclaimed the word dyke many decades ago. It isnt used much these days but it is a word of pride, identity, and recognition for me. Makes me smile. Havent run into anyone using it as a derogatory thing in years.

It irks me when anyone calls me "bro" even as a solidarity type thing. I am not a bro nor do I aspire to be a bro. It is insulting, demeaning, and derogatory to me.

[Angeltoes]

I used the word "gypped" all the time as a kid despite having a heritage that includes Romani people, otherwise known as "gypsies." When I was older I asked my grandparents why they never corrected me and they said, "it's just a word...you didn't mean anything bad." Personally, I think family members should let kids know how their words might sound to others, but I do agree that intention matters. For example, I've known straight girls who called everyone "bro." They weren't implying anything about gender or identity. It was just a habit for them. I might call a group of women "guys" like, "come on guys, let's go get a snow cone" Again, I may be a dork, but I'm not implying anything about gender or identity. it's just a speech habit.

I think "dyke" is a tough call since so many lesbians identify with that word. Yes, it's stupid to make assumptions or to go around randomly calling every lesbian a dyke. But we (the community) should also be sensitive to the fact that labels can be confusing. There has never been a time in history when people chose their own label based on sexual identity. Now gay women and transmen are almost expected to choose a label and make it known to the community. I don't mind conforming to that expectation. I consider myself to be a "queer femme" and I most definitely identify as a lesbian, but if someone makes an innocent mistake and calls me by another label, oh well. It's no big deal.

Of course, there are some words so loaded with historical baggage that they should never be used. But the constant censorship gets draining after awhile too. I think sometimes it's better to give people the freedom to show who they really are and what they're all about. That way we know who to avoid.

[JDeere]

for me I find the term Dyke to be offensive because I grew up being called DYKE by straight men yelling it at me meaning that they thought because I'm butch and look butch that I wanted to be a man and used in a very demeaning and derogatory way towards me and friends of mine when we were young. I'm 52 now and I still take it offensively if someone calls me a dyke. I know however that some other folks have reclaimed that word and are proud to be called a dyke and that it means something totally different to them, but for me, Don't.call.me.a.DYKE. period.
Anyone else who doesn't mind that term it's their choice, but I refuse to reclaim a derogatory word that was used towards me and be proud of it. Just my opinion.

Does anyone else have a word or words that they find offensive and other's don't? I see JD and I posted about the same time, and Yeah, don't call me crazy either I hate that word or the word Retard. Those words need to get gone from our vocabulary.

I still deem the word offensive to me even though some claim it. Just the way negative connotation irks me.

[Chad]

I am fairly easy going. You can call me dude, guy, buddy, sir, daddy, and him. Dyke was a negative term from the past that is hard to get past so I would prefer not to be called a dyke.

[boioboi]

I'm working on not using the words stupid, dumb, crazy, and insane as ways to describe experiences.

[storyspinner70]

Any kind of label word can be volatile. For example, I don't mind c**t, but most women I know hate it. My butch happily refers to herself as a dyke. My online "brother" refers to our "dad" as "an old boston dyke" and my dad would say the same. I don't identify as such, mostly because I'm bi. It's more important, I think, that you make yourself clear when someone uses a word you don't like and that they have enough respect to stop using it.

I'm from a small town in the south. There are a LOT of things people say that needs to stop - repairs that are hastily slapped together, for example, or the common word here for brazil nuts. The word retarded hasn't completely gone away and it needs to. People need to stop saying "You....like a girl" or "Your.....is so gay", as an insult.

I will call an ex queer because he's such a homophobe. My friend has several mental illnesses but tries to make light of it, so she and I talk about her being crazy or schizo when she's having a particularly difficult moment. My gay online friend doesn't hesitate to call other gay men faggots.

There are so many careless things we all say that need to stop. I try to be more observant but I'm still horribly at fault sometimes. Once you say it you can never undo it. Words are heavy and they are dangerous. All you can do is try to be as careful as you can to rid yourself of your own ignorance. I've still got a long way to go.

[Nat]

Hmm. Dyke isn't part of my daily vocab, but it has a charge for me. I perk up a bit when people embrace the term.

[JDeere]

Bump bump bump

[Angeltoes]

I don't like the whole "bitch" thing. I don't think the word bitch really needed to be reclaimed. It means a female dog and that's all. I'm not young and I know women my age who come to work and say idiotic things like "where's my bitchez at" lol.

And I want to say, "I'm not your bitch, you bitch." I guess they think it's cool or trendy, but it sucks.

But I have weird, inappropriate sense of humor, so sometimes I laugh at things that offend me. It depends on how funny it is and my mood.

[imperfect_cupcake]

"Whore". People use it here and it bugs the living crap out of me. I'm an ex-sex worker. I don't mind when sex workers use it to tease each other with or to say it with a reclaim sense of pride. And I don't think there is *anything* shameful about being a sex worker. I'm not in the sex-worker closet like so many of us have to be.

Imagine if you could *never* talk ab it your day at work and you felt you had to lie to people about your job? How stressful do you think that would be? The shame from the job doesn't actually come from the work itself, but from how people will treat you if they find out. Kind of like BEING GAY. Being gay isn't a choice for many people, or it's the best choice for others. It's "best choice" for me. Just like sex work was best choice for me when I did it. I preferred it to waitressing, house cleaning, clerking or office work. I was good at it, people thanked me, they treated me with respect (unlike many jobs) and I had more control of my job than any other work I had ever done.

Plus I got to tell people to fuck off if I didn't want to deal with them. Total job perk.

Sex (industry) work includes:
Porn
Phone sex
Web cramming
Stripping (though there are strippers that try and put themselves above all other sex industry workers and distance themselves from us)
Escorting - (and with these, there are so many different kind. There are pro-dommes, GFE [girlfriend experience - those who will pretend to be your girlfriend for that time], pro-subs, happy finish massage, tantric/spiritual sex guides, just to name a few - and some may offer a combination of those).

It takes patience, unbelievably good people skills, extremely high communication skills, admin skills. Most are independent workers where it's legal. That means they screen people against a database for safety, screen for type of client, screen for time wasters (80% of people enquiringly are time wasters and just get off on talking to a sex worker for free, costing us time and energy). I have a lot of friends who are sex workers of many kinds, all are lesbians or dykes, not all agree to penetrative sex, it may not be part of their services. None of the ones I am friends with or had my community with did things "bareback" or without protection. They also know what all of the STDs look like and insist on viewing what is presented before anything proceeds, for possible skin pathologies that are virulent (communicable or able to be passed on to others) and if they have any contact with genitals, they get tested regularly - even though they use barriers. They also happen to be some of the most intelligent women I know.

So when someone on here says that someone deserved to be treated in a shit way because she was "some dumb whore" or "some whore" you are actually talking about *ME*

And I don't deserve to be treated with disrespect. I would never have allowed a client to treat me with disrespect. Ever. I was very proud of what I gave people. Many people suffer with lack of company because they are so socially unable to function, that a sex worker is they only way of talking to someone they fancy. Anyone escort worth her salt, trains and educates her clients sexually, socially. I got a *lot* of men with homosexual urges that had no idea what they were or were so ashamed of them they twisted them into something else.
I educated my clients about the desires they were confused and ashamed of.

So, when you, as a non-sex-worker, use the term "whore" to mean a dishonest ex who fucked around on you with no integrity and I might point out *for free* ;) you are calling them *me* and frankly I behave a fuckton better than that. I have never done anything of the sort, nor would I ever. So I take exception to the word whore being used as an insult to people who behave horribly. And to label women who have sex as she pleases *for free* is also rather insulting. Being paid for a job is quite different that doing something for free. And frankly I find it just as baffling as calling a friend who knows a little something about pipes coming over and fixing a leak for you being called "a plumber." It makes no sense.

A whore is a sex worker. And sex work done by people who are not on drugs/high/drunk, which is the majority of us- just like the majority of people in your job are not high/drunk- have standards, rules, and are self regulating. Your shitty ex obviously did not. So it pisses me off very deeply when people use that term as an insult for people who are far below the pride of that word.

Kind of like calling a straight guy who does something stupid "faggit" or "dumb faggit"

Feels exactly the same to me.

[Ascot]

I'm pretty okay with 'dyke', and often use it in reference to myself. I've never had it flung at me as an epithet with the exception of once in traffic and that was 30 years ago, so it holds no barbs for me.


These days I'm also rather fond of 'lesbo'.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I actually quite like "lesbo" and dyke.
Sometimes I say I'm a "lezzo" or what not. There is nothing wrong with being gay, so it's kind of like someone calling me "Canuck" instead of "Canadian." Yeah. And? However using the term "lesbian" "lezzo" "lesbo" to put down a straight women, I don't fucking like. It's not an insult. It's a fact. So I don't like any word that describes my job, career, education, sexuality or gender used as an insult. Lesbo, when applied to me is correct and a fact and since there is nothing wrong with being a lesbo, I'm not offended by it.

Someone calling my straight best friend a lesbo just because she's a tomboy and a feminist is very irritating. She just looks at them and asks them if being a lesbian is supposed to be an insult. Or just goes with it and tells them she gets more pussy than they do/or bet I can fuck your gf better than you do. Which always makes me laugh

Although lesbian dosent quite fit me exactly, the way it's used here, to most people I'm a female and my partners gender doesn't matter because she/they/he have a female body and thus we are lesbians. So I use it awkwardly.

I prefer dyke. It fits better. Queer-dyke fits best in most places I trundle about in now.
But lesbian fit fine in London. Words are funny like that. Local interpretation and all.

But I totally get some people can't use dyke or queer on themselves. We all live very different lives.

[Greyson]

I am over women being referred to as females. Since when did a woman become simply a female? I find the term woman to be strong, independent and intelligent. Female sounds as if a woman is reduced to some sort of commodity without any depth.

[Soon]

I am over women being referred to as females. Since when did a woman become simply a female? I find the term woman to be strong, independent and intelligent. Female sounds as if a woman is reduced to some sort of commodity without any depth.

Huge pet peeve of mine. Here's an article on it but this one point especially makes the point clear:
Because the words "female" and "woman" mean different things.

"Female" is a scientific term that refers to the sex of a species that is capable of producing children. The term "woman" refers specifically to human beings, while "female" could refer to any species.

http://jezebel.com/the-problem-with-calling-women-females-1683808274 (comments under article on point as well)

[Nat]

Female doesn't bother me. I don't refer to people generally as male or female, but working with medical data all day I am much more irked when there isn't a third choice than I am by the terms. I don't identify as a woman nearly as much as I identify as a femme. As a bigender person, I feel slightly annoyed checking the box for female, but I would be more annoyed if I had to check a box that said "woman." Like - my femme side balks at having a gender applied to me that I generally don't apply to myself outside of discussions about women's rights.

[Ascot]

I am over women being referred to as females. Since when did a woman become simply a female? I find the term woman to be strong, independent and intelligent. Female sounds as if a woman is reduced to some sort of commodity without any depth.

My brother does that and it irks the hell out of me. He's in law enforcement. That irks the hell out of me, too.

[Nat]

My brother does that and it irks the hell out of me. He's in law enforcement. That irks the hell out of me, too.


It does remind me of cops and the military.

[JDeere]

I don't see anything wrong with the word whore, bitch, women or females. As I don't see them as derogatory as other words. Right now my list of offensive words are minor.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I refer to people as female if I know they are female but I don't know their gender. They could be female and *not* women. How would I know? Many of my ex partners are female and Butch as their gender, not women. Or genderqueer. Or agender. But still female.

Female = biology
Women = gender

Two females (of whom having various different genders, but I'm lazy and not going to list them all, thus the use of "female" to acknowledge biology since I don't know gender specifically) with each other as still regarded as "lesbian" from the general public because the general public sees female = woman because they think gender and sex are the same thing.

There are so far 16 different chomasomal sexes. I am, as far as I know, a female. And since I work in medicine and have a background in biology, to me it sounds an accurate description.

Unless it's used by a bunch of frat boys when I walk in "hey, who fought the female". But then if they used "hey who brought the woman" or "who brought the lesbian" or "who brOught the femme" I would find that equally insulting. Mainly because I am being talked about in the third person to my face and being reduced to my presentation. Rather than a human.

I don't mind it when newspapers do it. "28 year old female" because it's factual and "28 year old male" is used as often. If someone is reporting facts, it doesn't bother me at all.

If someone is reducing me to my chromasomal sex, my gonads, or secondary sex characteristics - or my gender for that matter - when I am present, then I'll get pissed. I hate it when people say "hey ladies!" Or "hey girls!" It makes my skin crawl. Eugh.

So I'm the opposite, I guess!

I don't actually say anything, though as most people are just trying to be friendly and polite. And intent is important.

[Greyson]

It does remind me of cops and the military.


Nat, I spend a lot of time in the company of Air Force military people because of the field work I am doing. I have never heard any of them refer to women as females. The term I hear them use most often when talking to a woman is "Ma'am" when they are officers and by rank and surname or only by their surname when referring to a woman that is not an officer.

As for me, they call me Mr. _____ , Sir, Ma'am or Greyson. I too wish there was another term besides binary terms when talking gender. On base, I am out as a Trans, (gender variant) person.

[meridiantoo]

And intent is important.

This sums it up for me, I think...what the person intends behind a comment or label. I'm pretty easy-going. I don't get offended usually by someone calling me a bitch or whore or c**t or her or she or whatever. I don't care if someone calls me dude. But, I do pay attention to the intent behind the word(s). If someone means to be derogatory, then I try to look at the overall conversation going on. My bottom line is that if someone calls me something they intend to be a nasty remark, if I don't take offense, don't own it, it just rolls off my back, and I can move along.

I know this is easy for me to say though. I'm not butch or trans. Getting my gender confused never seems to be an issue. So, I know others go through this a lot more. So, I don't mean to take the topic lightly.

[Kobi]

I am over women being referred to as females. Since when did a woman become simply a female? I find the term woman to be strong, independent and intelligent. Female sounds as if a woman is reduced to some sort of commodity without any depth.


The word female is very special to me. Being female, just like being a lesbian, is something very special and a source of pride. It signifies something very important, very substantive, and very empowering. It is very much a part of who I am.

Calling adult women girls bugs me.

[Angeltoes]

I don't mind being called a girl by someone I like. That's fine with me. But I don't call other women "girls."

Ugh there are so many rules... :(

[JDeere]

Bump, anyone else?

[femmeandstrong]

I don't see anything wrong with the word whore, bitch, women or females. As I don't see them as derogatory as other words. Right now my list of offensive words are minor.

holy cow, jdeer... lol...hope u feel better soon

[~ocean]

some ppl say dirty words ~ some ppl do dirty words ~ some ppl are just a dirty word ~ your own choice :) ~ enjoy lol

[JDeere]

holy cow, jdeer... lol...hope u feel better soon

Lol I wasn't feeling bad when I posted this, I was being honest.

[JDeere]

some ppl say dirty words ~ some ppl do dirty words ~ some ppl are just a dirty word ~ your own choice :) ~ enjoy lol

Care to clarify? lmao

[TL1]

some ppl say dirty words ~ some ppl do dirty words ~ some ppl are just a dirty word ~ your own choice :) ~ enjoy lol

And some people are/do all.


In general "dirty" words do not bother me.

[femmeandstrong]

Lol I wasn't feeling bad when I posted this, I was being honest.

hm...
that is quite incomprehensible to me...
but so be it

[~ocean]

Care to clarify? lmao

LOL JD brat !

[JDeere]

hm...
that is quite incomprehensible to me...
but so be it

How so? I'm just asking to get clarification?

[JDeere]

LOL JD brat !

Ahaha you know it!

[Reach *BANNED*]

After reading all of these posts my word does not seem as hurtful but more dismissive. I do not like the word whatever because it feels dismissive. I think that it could be used in a flippant manner as well which leads to that dismissive feeling.

A lot of where I have been around this word is when you are trying to have a discussion with someone very important to you and say you have given a good 3 minutes of dialogue only to have this person say "whatever" or "whatever you want", etc.

It really feels dismissive to me as though everything I just said was not taken in at all by the other person, where they have digested it, mulled it over, and come up with a thoughtful and constructive response.

(Hopefully I have stayed with the vein of this thread- but again that is what came to mind when I read all of the posts)