Non-packing butches

[stephfromMIT]

I read the "Packing 101" thread, and rather than derail it, I'm curious if I'm the only butch here who doesn't pack, and has no interest in packing?

[boobookitty]

I don't pack, have no desire to do so. it causes me more dysphoria. Toys during play time are ok, that doesn't bother me. but, it totally messes with my mind that the "packer" ...comes off...

[girl_dee]

I read the "Packing 101" thread, and rather than derail it, I'm curious if I'm the only butch here who doesn't pack, and has no interest in packing?

no you are not!

For me, i prefer a non -packing butch !

[Nadeest]

I know of one that doesn't pack, though she doesn't come to this site, either.

[ferret]

LOL. Why am I admitting that I don't pack? I figured maybe if I felt more male-oriented I would, but I definitely identify as a female and prefer female pronouns.

Eh, it's just a thought.

Sue

[stephfromMIT]

LOL. Why am I admitting that I don't pack? I figured maybe if I felt more male-oriented I would, but I definitely identify as a female and prefer female pronouns.

Eh, it's just a thought.

Sue

ferret-You reasons mirror mine exactly! Does this make us bad butches?

[Ebon]

Pack or don't pack. It doesn't make anyone less or more butch either way. Do whatever you want.

[princessbelle]

Pack or don't pack. It doesn't make anyone less or more butch either way. Do whatever you want.


Exactly!!! Was waiting for someone to say that!!!!

I've been with butches that do and those that don't. Some do sometimes, others never do.

I certainly have never felt anyone was ever "more butch" than another.

IMO being butch is in the mind and heart. It is not defined with what is hanging or not hanging between someone's legs.

[stephfromMIT]

ebon-Thanks for that. I think the attitude I presented there is why people left b-f to create this site.

[BullDog]

Yeah what Ebon said. Some butches pack, some don't. Just be yourself.

[Syr]

Pack? I have been known to pack a lunch, pack a suitcase...........
I am a non-packer.

[Syr]

Pack? I have been known to pack a lunch, pack a suitcase...........
I am a non-packer.

Oh yeah. Forgot to add. Let me know where the Butch test is being held. Thanks.

[Rockinonahigh]

Non packer hear,I got all the stuff but found it didnt make me anymore or less than who I already am..

[Jett]

Used to soft pack.. really don't anymore, doesn't seem to have caused any problem... I'm still able to function... you know, live, laugh, love and be loved.

It's all good... xD

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

LOL. Why am I admitting that I don't pack? I figured maybe if I felt more male-oriented I would, but I definitely identify as a female and prefer female pronouns.

Eh, it's just a thought.

Sue

My butch packs most of the time. However, she is NOT male oriented, and I know she is absolutely female-identified 100% of the time. Not Femme, but female. Big diff.

So does that make her c*ck a Femme c*ck, because she is not male ID'ing? hell no!

I love the fact that for HER, she can feel comfortable in her own skin and with or without packing. Same as for everyone else. Find what is comfortable and TRUE for you, and live that life!

[dreadgeek]

I read the "Packing 101" thread, and rather than derail it, I'm curious if I'm the only butch here who doesn't pack, and has no interest in packing?

No, you aren't the only one. Thanks for helping the rest of us realize we aren't alone.

Cheers
Aj

[Kobi]

I read the "Packing 101" thread, and rather than derail it, I'm curious if I'm the only butch here who doesn't pack, and has no interest in packing?


There are many of us.

[thedivahrrrself]

<---not a fan of wearing makeup, still as femme as they come.

pack, don't pack, doesn't change who you are. There are butches on this site who don't use c*cks at all, so I hardly think you are alone.

[SleepyButch]

I have packed in the past both soft and hard, but have not in a long time.

Nothing wrong with doing it or not doing it just depends on your preference.

[Toughy]

I do not own any kind of soft pack, so obviously I do not pack. If I am going to a play party and intend to play then I pack and I pack hard because I am going to use it.

Let's see, circa 1970 Amarillo TX, when I came out we used socks to pack and I only knew folks that packed if they were in a drag show.

There are also butch folk out here who do not strap on a cock. Doesn't make them more or less butch, just makes them a non-packing, non-strapping butch.

Gender has nothing to do with sexual proclivities.

[femmennoir]

Any packing femmes? Just curious!

Elle*

[ferret]

ferret-You reasons mirror mine exactly! Does this make us bad butches?


I think it's safe to say I'm just me, and take it or leave it, you know? Doesn't mean we're bad butches.

Sue

[Parker]

Joining in with the non-packers.

I used to think I had to pack to be butch - because I kept hearing about butches packing and rarely ever heard from the non-packing butches .... especially on the dash site. But I wasnt being authentic to myself when I packed because that wasnt who I really was, so now I only wear my cock when I intend to use it.

If someone cant appreciate me for the butch that I *am* and not the butch that *they want me to be*, why would I want to be with them anyway? Truth is: I wouldnt. :winky:

[Maria]

Any packing femmes? Just curious!

Elle*

Lots of femmes pack!

[Medusa]

Parker - You touched on something that I REALLY REALLY want to talk about and might go start a thread in the Red Zone about it.

I think that a lot of us were a party to some of the groundwork that was laid on the Dash that dictated that Butch = certain things and Femme = certain things.

I think it has really been pivotal to how some people have shaped their gender presentation and also some of the reason we keep having to have the circular conversation of what is good objectification and what is bad objectification.

In my mind there is a lot of gray area in the Butch/Femme dynamic and I think that people really worked to try to make it a black/white issue back then. Hence the "He" for Butches and "Femmes never pack" ideaology.

Anyway, just wanted to say I hear you.

[OS Butch]

This thread leads me to tell a story. Seems I always have a story.

I don't know how many years ago it happened. I belonged to a group of Butchly sorts. We communicated by a yahoo group when we weren't at a gathering at someones home or out and about taking our girlfriends a night on the town.

The conversation truly was confusing me, especially because it was on line and things just get lost in translation. The topic was about Mr. Softee...which confused me even more. So....I had to ask....What does that have to do with ice cream?:sunglass:

Needless to say, to this day, they still tease me about that comment.

[jac]

Early on as a butch I didn't pack or strap-on. Hell, I didn't know there was such a thing. I knew I was not feminine and that I appreciated women but being a lesbian for me has been a growing experience. The person I am is fluid in my likes and dislikes (about myself) and I have changed consistantly... in a fuid way. I've questioned and wondered and explored.

When I was a non-packer I was true to myself and I was content and happy with me at that time. I have changed since and I prefer to pack now. Does that make me any more butch than who I was before... absolutely not. Was it because "everyone else" was doing it? Not at all. In fact not many, if any of my realtime friends pack... Okay one, he's trans... But there's nothing wrong or less-than about an individual who does not pack for being true to self and enjoying the you and your sexuality as you see fit. Being authentic and true to self is what makes the butch...

[DapperButch]

Any packing femmes? Just curious!

Elle*

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3839

[Parker]

Parker - You touched on something that I REALLY REALLY want to talk about and might go start a thread in the Red Zone about it.

I think that a lot of us were a party to some of the groundwork that was laid on the Dash that dictated that Butch = certain things and Femme = certain things.

I think it has really been pivotal to how some people have shaped their gender presentation and also some of the reason we keep having to have the circular conversation of what is good objectification and what is bad objectification.

In my mind there is a lot of gray area in the Butch/Femme dynamic and I think that people really worked to try to make it a black/white issue back then. Hence the "He" for Butches and "Femmes never pack" ideaology.

Anyway, just wanted to say I hear you.

Thanks for this :)

[Corkey]

Just be the best you, you can be. The pack, like the clothes don't make the person.

[Mel C.]

Cool thread...I have packed, soft and hard. I may pack again, but I don't feel that packing is essential for me. If someone thought less of me based on whether I pack or not, they aren't really someone I need in my circle of friends. I wouldn't assume a butch has to pack, or dress in men's clothing, or wear a compression shirt (and so on) to be butch.

[iamkeri1]

Hey y'all,
I'm not trying to de-rail here, but I would like a little clarification or enhancement of what I thought I understood. I thought packing, whatever way you choose to do it, happened during non-sex (like sitting around the house or going out for the evening or having lunch at the in-laws house.)
I understand you can hard pack or soft pack or not pack at all, and its all good.

I've thought myself round in a circle and lost track of what I wanted to say, maybe just simply this. Is it still called packing DURING sex? I've heard the phrase many time "butches who strap on" Is that what one calls it during sex?

Crap!... I'm embarrasing the hell out of myself. Could you just tell me what you mean by "packing"?

Very embarrassed smooches,
Keri

[Mel C.]

Hey y'all,
I'm not trying to de-rail here, but I would like a little clarification or enhancement of what I thought I understood. I thought packing, whatever way you choose to do it, happened during non-sex (like sitting around the house or going out for the evening or having lunch at the in-laws house.)
I understand you can hard pack or soft pack or not pack at all, and its all good.

I've thought myself round in a circle and lost track of what I wanted to say, maybe just simply this. Is it still called packing DURING sex? I've heard the phrase many time "butches who strap on" Is that what one calls it during sex?

Crap!... I'm embarrasing the hell out of myself. Could you just tell me what you mean by "packing"?

Very embarrassed smooches,
Keri

I'm not gonna portray myself as an expert but strapping and packing are different in my mind. I think of packing as creating a bulge that appears similar to a penis. Strapping (again, in my opinion) is one way of securing the bulge so you don't lose it on the dance floor. Strapping can also describe wearing a strap-on for sex. I have never thought of "packing" as related to sex, other than the fact that some people see the bulge and are ready to giddyup

Oh, and feel free to check out the packing thread(s) cuz I am sure they would be happy to answer questions. You are also welcome to PM me.

[Kobi]

Parker - You touched on something that I REALLY REALLY want to talk about and might go start a thread in the Red Zone about it.

I think that a lot of us were a party to some of the groundwork that was laid on the Dash that dictated that Butch = certain things and Femme = certain things.

I think it has really been pivotal to how some people have shaped their gender presentation and also some of the reason we keep having to have the circular conversation of what is good objectification and what is bad objectification.

In my mind there is a lot of gray area in the Butch/Femme dynamic and I think that people really worked to try to make it a black/white issue back then. Hence the "He" for Butches and "Femmes never pack" ideaology.

Anyway, just wanted to say I hear you.


It would be nice to be able to have conversations about these kinds of things.

Is the Red Zone the place to have them? In my experience, the Red Zone perpetuates the circular conversation along with a lot of anger, emotion, hurt feelings and nastiness.

This, in turn, makes it harder for non-popular or non-dominant thoughts to be expressed. One has to decide if expressing an idea or opinion is worth the aggravation of doing so. It is also a peer pressure thing.

To be unpopularly blunt about it, we try our best to ignore or downplay the fact that the same masculine-feminine dynamics, the same internalized sexism/misogyny on both sides of the dynamic, which created and fuel the dichotomy in the first place, just get replicated in a Red Zone arena.

Thus, what could be a fruitful and exploratory conversation with lessons learned on all sides, becomes a monologue of many to reinforce the status quo.

Red Zone does make it easier for the mods tho.

[arcstriker]

Okay I am a cop...when I am asked if I am packing...forgive the "deer in the headlights" look you get! I just never know how to answer that question..."yes and no!" "yes and yes" or "no and yes"....tonight the answer is yes and no...I am home. Someone will figuer that one out!

:wine: waiting for Mrs Arcstriker to come home!

[Corkey]

I think it comes down to personal preference and in my mind there is no debating a personal choice. I'm weird like that.

[DapperButch]

Hey y'all,
I'm not trying to de-rail here, but I would like a little clarification or enhancement of what I thought I understood. I thought packing, whatever way you choose to do it, happened during non-sex (like sitting around the house or going out for the evening or having lunch at the in-laws house.)
I understand you can hard pack or soft pack or not pack at all, and its all good.

I've thought myself round in a circle and lost track of what I wanted to say, maybe just simply this. Is it still called packing DURING sex? I've heard the phrase many time "butches who strap on" Is that what one calls it during sex?

Crap!... I'm embarrasing the hell out of myself. Could you just tell me what you mean by "packing"?

Very embarrassed smooches,
Keri

In my world not during sex, packing (hard, soft). During sex, strapping. A butch who "straps on", means that they participate in strap on sex.

[Parker]

Hey y'all,
I'm not trying to de-rail here, but I would like a little clarification or enhancement of what I thought I understood. I thought packing, whatever way you choose to do it, happened during non-sex (like sitting around the house or going out for the evening or having lunch at the in-laws house.)
I understand you can hard pack or soft pack or not pack at all, and its all good.

I've thought myself round in a circle and lost track of what I wanted to say, maybe just simply this. Is it still called packing DURING sex? I've heard the phrase many time "butches who strap on" Is that what one calls it during sex?
Crap!... I'm embarrasing the hell out of myself. Could you just tell me what you mean by "packing"?

Very embarrassed smooches,
Keri

Please dont be embarrassed - you're just being honest and it's a good question - not to mention the fact that if one person poses the question, odds are there are others who have the same question, they just havent asked it ... yet. :winky:

I believe that, generally, when one speaks of packing, they mean that they are wearing (for lack of a better term) something that resembles or approximates a penis or butch cock under their clothing, i.e., a Mr. Softie, which is a realistic looking and feeling cock that resembles a flaccid penis. These can be worn with or without a harness.

Even if one speaks of "packing for play," generally speaking again, they mean they are wearing a hard cock with their harness (strap-on) under their clothing because they anticipate using it at some point in the near future.

I say generally speaking because (a) I dont speak for all butches and (b) some people may use different terms for different things or actions or they may just toss it all into the same pot and call it packing.

But a lot of times, you can usually guess what someone is talking about based on the context of what they are saying - so if someone mentions packing and fucking at the same time, they probably mean they were using a hard cock and harness for sex.


Also - if I could sneak off topic for one second here ..... I wanted to let you know that when you add font, bold, color, size, etc to your posts, you dont have to do it for each separate paragraph - you can highlight the whole post at once and add your font, etc that way .... saves time and energy. :winky:

[Mrs Arcstriker]

Okay I am a cop...when I am asked if I am packing...forgive the "deer in the headlights" look you get! I just never know how to answer that question..."yes and no!" "yes and yes" or "no and yes"....tonight the answer is yes and no...I am home. Someone will figuer that one out!

:wine: waiting for Mrs Arcstriker to come home!

Why Mr. Arcstriker...So this is what you do when you have two days off!

So are we talking "heat" or cock? If so, then I prefer Yes and Yes. The cock definitely turns me on, and the .40 cal. makes up for the height discrepency. (Or is it the other way around?)

(tippy-toeing out of the room now...)

[girl_dee]

i'm packing right now, for the Reunion! It's going to be a tight squeeze!

[girl_dee]

Any packing femmes? Just curious!

Elle*

i would never want to pack but if my butch wanted me to strap it on i would do it without hesitation...(She doesn't just for the record) in my eyes who is strapping, getting penetrated if anyone, penetrating, who is fucking who, on top , on bottom or hanging from the trapeze does NOT define butch or femme, top or bottom. Doing what feels good in the safety and comfort of that special person is what is right. No one can define that for you, not society and certainly not this website.

[femmennoir]

"Lots of femmes pack! " (Maria)

It was a rhetorical question meant to open up the conversation! I find packing femmes hot!

Elle*

[*Anya*]

No interest in packing by butch or femme.

Now I said packing, not strapping, to be clear and all.

[girl_dee]

"Lots of femmes pack! "

It was a rhetorical question meant to open up the conversation! I find packing femmes hot!

Elle*

Yes and i hope it does, ( although maybe not on this thread ) !!!

[Stud_puppy1991]

I do not pack, nor have I ever. I may be young, but I'm fully aware that I don't need to pack to know I am butch. I am just as much of one whether I pack or I don't. We all have things that make us who we are, and we are no more or less without said traits. So, does that make me less of a butch? no. not at all. We were made to be our own versions, not copies of another type. We're all still who we are. I'm still a young, dapper butch, without anything between my legs. I am me, and that's what counts.

[Martina]

If a butch I am seeing wants to soft pack, I say go for it. It's none of my business really. If she wants me to groove on it, it's going to be disappointing for her because I just don't. It doesn't do a thing for me.

I hear about femmes who scrape it with their nails and share that MOMENT, that acknowledgement of difference, and I think, wow, we are so not the same. Seriously.

I love those moments of acknowledgement with butches or femmes. That frisson of recognition of who we are. That delicious exchange. But the softpack as a signifier of gender is not erotic for me. It is not a manifestation of masculinity that I find hot or even interesting. If someone were to wear it and not need me to interact with it in that way, then we'd be good.

It wouldn't mean I didn't see them for who they are or that I wouldn't groove on their masculine presentation.

[BstlMyhart]

As I have always said...packing or not packing doesn't matter to me. I will pack if the femme I am with wants me to, but I don't define me by an addition carried between my legs. I am just ME.

[Sweet_Amor_Taino]

I pack on certain occasions depending on what I have plan for us. I love to pack when I go out dancing. I know femmes that love the feel while dancing. :daddy:

[Martina]

When I think about it, that moment, reaching for someone -- it's a fun thing. All consensual, of course. Whether doing it slyly in public or not, it's a pleasure.

Just rubbing that high inner thigh in the car or anywhere. Yum.

A soft pack, for me, means I won't be going there. There are things we do for the pleasure of our partners that don't do all that much for us. But to fake that I want to reach for her stuff when I don't, no, that would not work.

Yet, I'd have to be busy or in a pretty pissy mood not to want to touch a partner between the legs if she wanted it.

The softpack is, ironically, a cock block to me. I do not have any interest in it. If it's there, I am not likely to fondle her.

[Femminator]

My Butch does not pack, and until coming to the Butch-Femme site I had no idea that packing was something some Butches did. I don't judge a Butch by what's in their pants.

[Rope]

I only pack when I'm going to use it needless to say, it's not a soft pack.

Packing vs. non-packing is about personal preferences of the butch and has nothing to do with being butch enough or this or that kind of butch or whatever the hell people want to come up with.

Yes, I've met femmes that pack and butches that do and do not pack all the time, some of the time, only on a Sunday <g>....

Rope--

[rustedrims]

Getting educated here.
I thought all Butches had to pack or strap on to be in "The Bois Club".
Hummm,maybe not.

[Leigh]

I know I spend alot of time in the butch c*ck thread, however that doesn't mean I have to be with someone who does - I accept my butch as they are, whether they pack or not :)

[Rockinonahigh]

When I first came out to the big world other than a fue friends I was told by nearly everyone that if I didnt pack or strap it on I would never really be any kind of a butch.With that in mind I bought whatever it took to fill the toy bag...I spent mucho deniro....wow that good stuff aint cheep.That's been a long time ago,and to tell the truth untill I became a bfp planiteer I never felt I could ever not have or need to strap or pack to intrest anyone in the community.It dosent bother me to do either one way or the other..there is another thing I got from being hear that is being called her isnt a black ball word,I can stull be a big old butch jaust the same.I learn something reading these post that its ok to relax and be me without haveing to fix in a box that i'm expexted to be in.

[Mel C.]

Getting educated here.
I thought all Butches had to pack or strap on to be in "The Bois Club".
Hummm,maybe not.

I have had the pleasure of spending time (in real life) with quite a few butches and only a few of them packed. It certainly wasn't an issue to them whether I packed or not, but the ones who did pack explained their rationale. I imagine more info is available from the packing thread.

I did pack for a few b-f gatherings, but never mainstream. I don't think I would pack again unless it was a turn-on for the femme. I don't mind packing, but it isn't something I need to do currently.

[lusciouskiwi]

I've never actually been with anyone who packs. My ex in San Diego used to think about it but never went shopping. And when I came out 20 years ago, I don't know that we knew much about it in New Zealand. Although, I'm sure there were plenty of butches who did think about it and tried doing it with socks etc.

[girl_dee]

Getting educated here.
I thought all Butches had to pack or strap on to be in "The Bois Club".
Hummm,maybe not.


Definately NOT.

[Rockinonahigh]

Rockin' -- This right here that I bolded. Thank you for this. I hope others feel this way too now.

Being called her or she doesn't make anyone less than anyone else.


Thank you bunches June:bunchflowers: Finaly beleaveing this came late but better late than never.

[girl_dee]

i don't care what anyone else does in their pants, that's their beeswax, but for me i have learned along the way that i prefer not to simulate hetero sex. i always thought that's what B-F was, being with a *male* ID'd butch and having heteroish sex. Now i know different. We have an allotment of toys which are great fun, but without engaging in hetero-like sex. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone.

i am so happy that others are seeing they don't lose their butch card for not packing and not being a *he*.. and that a femme is still a femme no matter what her butch has in their pants, or doesn't have.

[starryeyes]

Everyone has their thing and as long as everyone is having safe, happy consensual fun, let the good time roll!

No one should be judged, looked down upon, treated differently, looked at sideways for their kink or their self expression! Especially here. We already get that out there! This is our place to embrace, love and cherish our community of packers, non-packers, hys, shes, butches, femmes, whoever you are. It is you and you should be proud.

It hurts that people in our community feel like they are not "butch enough" for not packing, or not in the "boys club". What is this? Since when is there a standard. I am confused. This reminds me of high school labels and it feels yucky.

[BullDog]

When I first came out to the big world other than a fue friends I was told by nearly everyone that if I didnt pack or strap it on I would never really be any kind of a butch.With that in mind I bought whatever it took to fill the toy bag...I spent mucho deniro....wow that good stuff aint cheep.That's been a long time ago,and to tell the truth untill I became a bfp planiteer I never felt I could ever not have or need to strap or pack to intrest anyone in the community.It dosent bother me to do either one way or the other..there is another thing I got from being hear that is being called her isnt a black ball word,I can stull be a big old butch jaust the same.I learn something reading these post that its ok to relax and be me without haveing to fix in a box that i'm expexted to be in.

Yep just be yourself. How butch is presented online and how butches live out in the real world are often very different. Either way, there is no right or wrong way to be butch.

I pack very occasionally but never soft pack. I don't feel the need for it. My connection is always there whether I am packing or not.

[BstlMyhart]

Getting educated here.
I thought all Butches had to pack or strap on to be in "The Bois Club".
Hummm,maybe not.

"Butch" is your essence....not a predetermined mold shaped by anyone. Anyone who tries to put anyone else in a mold of any kind needs to remember to look past the outside and see into the soul. As always, just stating my opinion. Whether I'm right or wrong <shrug> lol

[StrongButch]

I am a woman who is gay and butch and thats it And honestly im an older butch and all these labels are starting to confuse me It seems like everyday a new label is created at times I cant keep up (lol)

[Kobi]

i don't care what anyone else does in their pants, that's their beeswax, but for me i have learned along the way that i prefer not to simulate hetero sex. i always thought that's what B-F was, being with a *male* ID'd butch and having heteroish sex. Now i know different. We have an allotment of toys which are great fun, but without engaging in hetero-like sex. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone.

i am so happy that others are seeing they don't lose their butch card for not packing and not being a *he*.. and that a femme is still a femme no matter what her butch has in their pants, or doesn't have.




Thank you for sharing this.

As a butch lesbian, I have no desire to act out male-female dynamics or roles in or out of bed. So, this makes a lot of sense to me.

There are many ways of pleasuring ones partner and many toys to use if one chooses aside from phallic ones. I prefer those techniques and toys which accentuate and celebrate the unique interplay between two women who enjoy both enjoy the splendor and wonder of the female body.

I am not a boi or a boi, so I am not familiar with or interested in a club for such. I dont even understand butch-ftm bonding.

It is nice to know there are femmes who still appreciate phallic-less female butches. :cheesy:

[BstlMyhart]

i don't care what anyone else does in their pants, that's their beeswax, but for me i have learned along the way that i prefer not to simulate hetero sex. i always thought that's what B-F was, being with a *male* ID'd butch and having heteroish sex. Now i know different. We have an allotment of toys which are great fun, but without engaging in hetero-like sex. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone.

i am so happy that others are seeing they don't lose their butch card for not packing and not being a *he*.. and that a femme is still a femme no matter what her butch has in their pants, or doesn't have.



Pffffttttt like anyone could ever take my butch card away <smirk>

[Arwen]

Oh yeah. Forgot to add. Let me know where the Butch test is being held. Thanks.

Syr hits something for me here.

Why all the "does this make me butch/less butch/more butch" questions? Is it that hard to just be who you are? Don't compare yourself to others. Don't measure your......self against them.

Butchness, like femmeness, (while not being real words) isn't a quantifiable thing.

Can we have less talks that pivot on how butch/femme we are/aren't and more about what real community is?

I'm as femme as I need to be. My honey is as masculine as he needs to be. He suits my preferences. Everyone is not meant to be with everyone.

Be who you are and the one(s) meant to be with you will find you.

It really is that simple.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I can't think of anyone in this forum that has "heteronormative" sex. We're all having queer, gay, lesbian sex I thought. Well that's unless you identify as straight.

I enjoy penetration and penetrating nothing about it = heteronormative:|

[BstlMyhart]

I can't think of anyone in this forum that has "heteronormative" sex. We're all having queer, gay, lesbian sex I thought. Well that's unless you identify as straight.

I enjoy penetration and penetrating nothing about it = heteronormative:|

It's not about "hetero" sex for me by a long shot. Sometimes a femme wants deeper penetration and I'm happy to oblige. Besides, leaves both hands and mouth free for other things. ;)

[BullDog]

Well I do agree not to let things get you down, but no I don't think it is just that simple. That would be like telling women just because so much of our culture tells us that we are inferior to men, just don't let that get you down, it's just that simple. Some are valued more than others. There is nothing simple about that. There are hierarchies in place and they do need to be discussed.

On another note, I am a stone butch lesbian with a cock. There is nothing heteronormative about me or how I have sex.

[Parker]

Syr hits something for me here.

Why all the "does this make me butch/less butch/more butch" questions? Is it that hard to just be who you are? Don't compare yourself to others. Don't measure your......self against them.

Butchness, like femmeness, (while not being real words) isn't a quantifiable thing.

Can we have less talks that pivot on how butch/femme we are/aren't and more about what real community is?

I'm as femme as I need to be. My honey is as masculine as he needs to be. He suits my preferences. Everyone is not meant to be with everyone.

Be who you are and the one(s) meant to be with you will find you.

It really is that simple.

Sometimes we are hit with it when we are younger - like Rockinonahigh, I too was with someone who felt I should pack to be butch and I went through a period of packing a Mr. Softie and hard-packing because that's what I thought I was supposed to do - that's what I was being told that butch was - that a butch is supposed to pack and feel like their cock is a part of themselves. When I didnt feel that, I questioned my "butchness."

Sometimes we are hit with it on-line as well - when I see person after person after person talking about how butches are so connected to their cocks, etc, I end up feeling like an outsider looking in on a community to which I dont belong.

When I see people talking about the above - referencing all butches, etc. I think about the younger lesbians and butches (or those who might be older but just figuring things out) who might be lurking about, reading, wondering who they are and where they fit in.

That's why I post in threads like this - not to one-up anyone or put anyone down for who they are and what they do, or even to talk about who's more butch than who; but to show others that there isnt just ONE kind of butch out there - we dont all need to be male ID'd, pack, or bind - and no matter which kind of butch we are, we are all butch and none of us should ever be made to feel less than or like an outsider in our own community. :)

[Martina]

I can't think of anyone in this forum that has "heteronormative" sex. We're all having queer, gay, lesbian sex I thought. Well that's unless you identify as straight.

I enjoy penetration and penetrating nothing about it = heteronormative:|

I don't think of people who pack or strap as heteronormative. It's queer sex if queer folk are doing it. And we get to fuck any way we want and still be queer. As leather folks, or as older ones, we had to fight that fight back in the day. I did anyway.

So, I agree. I don't know why I am the way I am. I like butch and femme cock. And I like pussy. A soft pack does leave me cold.

In another post, I mentioned a friend who introduced someone to butch cock. The someone immediately owned it, just wagged it around, danced, played and strutted. My friend laughed with delight at her sexual partner's newfound joy in the cock. I think that's awesome. I would, in the abstract, be happy for the butch, but I would not enjoy the display. That's the difference.

That doesn't make me more queer than anybody else. Or less cock loving in terms of sex. There are stone femmes who don't have a strong interest in pussy, or any interest in it. They are as queer as anybody else.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't think my preference is political anymore than I think anyone's is. It's just a preference.

[macele]

i've never packed, ... that's not good or bad. just is what it is. well ... i have put socks down but that was only a time or two and that's been so many years ago ... i don't know that it can still count lol. so yeah, i have thought about packing. not going to say that i never will, because i just might, if i decide that i want to. now i've never thought about going out, say dancing, packing. that never crossed my mind until this group.

very true. life online and in the real, ... sorta beg to differ at times. no one should tell another person what makes them or breaks them. i don't give a care what folks say online (or in person) about their butchiness. and i don't care what they say about mine. but you know, i can't even find my butchiness at times! lol

maybe the packing isn't so much about the significant other as it is about the packer. we all need different things to turn us on. i don't know enough about the experience to share. just saying gender could be no where in the picture. and then again, it could be. sometimes we have to experience things to really know what's happening. i learn everyday. thanks for that. i watched a shawn colvin video. she had on a dress and pants, ... at the same time. my first thought is, what the hell! but then i step back and say, i might try that! lol now that's what a butch would do.

[rustedrims]

Ok here it goes.

As far as me packing i never have.I set things down and forget where i put them.I have read the horror stories of droping the "package" on the floor in public restrooms.Do you pick it up or leave it and say "Thats not mine" ! There is just to many things that can go wrong in the public that might catch you with your pants down so to speak.Like a trip to the emergency room.Hanging around home sure if my girl wants me to but probly never in public.Not a believer in baggy Levis.If you can see a "buldge" in my jeans and these things called "boobies",,,think i might be asking for it from the public.

The Ex'es,
I never strapped on for them because i was very good at satisfying them with just my self.Actually they didnt allow me to "go inside".That made me kinda crazy not being able to do that because i sure wanted to.Every now and then i would surprise them and slide in there.{no pun intended}.I would get my hair pulled hit on the back or my ears grabbed.That just wasnt a good idea to do that.To me it was worth it.My last Ex liked me going inside of her.She was wild and i loved every minute of it.I would ask her"One towel or 2?"OOPS another thread.I used vibrators and a dildo on her and it was great for us both.Then she wanted to use them on me and the relationship ended shortly after letting her know i wasnt going to lay on my back.I am a giver not a taker.

Then i find the Dash Site and my world opened up.I sat back and said WoW!But then i see the femmes in there like the "toys" that resemble the bio male cock/dick.Automatically i think they arent really gay or lesbian for that matter.I always thought that if they liked that kind of stuff for sexual pleasure they were using a gay/lesbian woman for couriousity and will eventually go back to the bio male.Over the years of living and reading about this lifestyle i love that isnt the case at all.I am very clear on that now.I am willing to do what my femme asks or declines.For me it is all about the Lady and not me.I love being a Butch Woman and identifies as she.

[Bèsame*]

Lots of femmes pack!

I love to pack.....my overnight bag

[Two-spirit]

Hi,

I dont pack.and never have,I tried it once but when I slept on my stomach ..it hurt so I took it off..

The strap on comes out of the toy box when Im ready for it with the ladies..

[oksoftbutch]

Like two-spirit I don't pack either, but I have been known to oblige a beautiful femme....:cigar2:

[chris1life]

I just found this site so I'm a newbie and am finding it so helpful. I have always thought of myself as butch and I loved that about myself. Where I am from there doesn't seem to be a lot of butch women. Anyway after getting online to try And find more women Like me I stumbled across a site that pretty much led me to believe I am not "butch enough" Because I don't like my hair short (it looks horrible on me) I have large breast, I hate binding it hurts and I rarely ever pack Because in public around my neck of the woods isn't smart. I do love for my femme to to strap Nothing sexier than her begging to use her cock. Yummy :sunglass: but at the end of the day I'm her butch she tells me she wants to feel my cock while she is dancing with me at a club I strap it, pack it or what ever she wants.
It Really does help to see there are so many different types of women out there. Some times we are just hard on each other. One thing I have learned from all of this is I'm me. I'm butch enough for me. If packing makes u feel like a complete you then do it up if it doesn't then don't. Wear long hair or short hair bind or don't. Only thing that counts is if you are Happy.

[bright_arrow]

i don't care what anyone else does in their pants, that's their beeswax, but for me i have learned along the way that i prefer not to simulate hetero sex. i always thought that's what B-F was, being with a *male* ID'd butch and having heteroish sex. Now i know different. We have an allotment of toys which are great fun, but without engaging in hetero-like sex. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone.

i am so happy that others are seeing they don't lose their butch card for not packing and not being a *he*.. and that a femme is still a femme no matter what her butch has in their pants, or doesn't have.



I never thought about it in those terms. I just figured if I liked it, what the hell? :) Though I now understand why my girlfriend a few years back freaked out on me liking penetration and told me I "wasn't really a lesbian". Cause to some penetration = straight sex? Bah.

I don't care what you call it as long as I am getting laid!

ETA: I do not care if my butch decides to pack or not. It is [obviously] her choice, and she would if I requested I suppose, but it all comes down to her comfort! It does not make her [or you, or you, or you!] less of whatever ID you feel you fit. You are you, and you are awesome!

[always2late]

I just found this site so I'm a newbie and am finding it so helpful. I have always thought of myself as butch and I loved that about myself. Where I am from there doesn't seem to be a lot of butch women. Anyway after getting online to try And find more women Like me I stumbled across a site that pretty much led me to believe I am not "butch enough" Because I don't like my hair short (it looks horrible on me) I have large breast, I hate binding it hurts and I rarely ever pack Because in public around my neck of the woods isn't smart. I do love for my femme to to strap Nothing sexier than her begging to use her cock. Yummy :sunglass: but at the end of the day I'm her butch she tells me she wants to feel my cock while she is dancing with me at a club I strap it, pack it or what ever she wants.
It Really does help to see there are so many different types of women out there. Some times we are just hard on each other. One thing I have learned from all of this is I'm me. I'm butch enough for me. If packing makes u feel like a complete you then do it up if it doesn't then don't. Wear long hair or short hair bind or don't. Only thing that counts is if you are Happy.

This post hit home for me...because sometimes our community (not THIS community, but our community in general) can get very caught up in definitions and labels. It seems that some are more comfortable living in a cookie-cutter world where only their personal definition of what is "butch" or "femme" is applied. It galls me when I hear someone say something like "oh, so and so isn't a REAL butch (or femme)" because of the way they look...their hair is too long, or too short, they don't wear the "right" clothes, etc... No one has the right, or invitation, to define anyone else. Besides, who wants to live in a world like that? Where everyone had to conform to some predefined version of what butch or femme is? How boring would that be??

[TruTexan]

I'm a non packer. It's never even crossed my mind til now about packing. Hmmm, I wonder what it's like to pack? Maybe one day I'll try it an see if I like it. Who knows. But packing or not packing does NOT define my butchness. I am who I am and I'm me, period.

[Tangle]

I don't respond often to threads, but I felt compelled to do so in this thread. I skimmed most of the responses in here, and was surprised that I felt taken aback at a couple things I saw. I'd like to address them politely.

I read the following phrases used to describe sex with someone wearing a strap-on: "simulate hetero sex," and "act out male-female dynamics" - and they were both used in a negative context. Wow, really? I saw that Lady Snow addressed this a bit, but wanted to add my two cents. I have not, in the last 13 years, been with someone who did not choose to use a strap-on, and I have to say, I never felt even once that my relationship - or the act of sex within that relationship - was "simulating" anything! Trust me, every time it was the genuine article, an original piece of art. Granted, I at times "act out" lots of naughty things, but it never has to do with pretending to be straight. :pirate: :girleating: :spank: :bellydancer:

This attitude seems reminiscent of verbiage used decades ago by feminist lesbians about how the B/F dynamic was in itself a pretend version of heterosexuality. I have to say, if the people participating in sex say they are queer - and believe they are queer - aren't they queer, and isn't that sex ultimately queer? Can I not claim a sexual act for myself because it feels good and sexy, without being told - not only by the straight world - that it isn't gay enough? Now that I'm on a roll, it feels a lot like being in a queer space and being told by some random person that it's not for straight girls like me b/c i'm wearing heels, a skirt, and long hair.

Isn't one of the first rules that you learn when you get your queer handbook to believe what someone tells you about their own identity? Come on now. Pretending to be straight has never entered my mind while being fucked by a butch or transguy. Even with a cock. Even on my back, in missionary position, in the dark!

*Sweet ladylike smile* Now. With regard to the spirit of this thread, my initial response, before I saw red, was that I personally have no preference when it comes to my lover packing or not. I've been with a transman who occasionally packed, a female-identified person who did constantly except to sleep, and another who never packed. In none of these situations was I turned-off by the lack of packing, nor did it change my perception of that person's gender or butchness.

This is my actual point, with that background in place: I personally find many things attractive about people I love. If my lover packs, it's a turn-on because it signifies something about her or him. I've had lovers who were into breasts until they fell for me, and now they're small-waist/ big-hip lovers. It's me that they love, and particular turn-ons follow naturally. If I were to fall in love with someone who had lots of freckles, that would become something I adored... but it's not something I need or that I seek out. If my spouse later had no freckles, would I miss them? Of course not. Each relationship is different. Packing is different things to different butches, and it isn't about what's between someone's legs that is important, it's about the energy with which they carry themselves - packing or not.

It is sad for me to think that there are butches who have been made to feel less a part of the community, or who have called into question their own feelings of masculinity because of their choices to pack or not. Likewise, people who do choose to pack have different reasons for it. Some may like the gender fuck of it, some may feel it helps them to feel more comfortable in the world or in their bodies to have that sensation. There are many other reasons. I'd like for all of us not to make presumptions about the meaning of packing or the lack of packing, and realize that we are all different, and that packing is not a sign or symptom of any level of gender-queer or masculinity.

*end novella*

[whale]

I think it's too much work for me to handle. I don't bind nor pack and I think I'm keeping it like that for a while.

[ProfPacker]

I don't respond often to threads, but I felt compelled to do so in this thread. I skimmed most of the responses in here, and was surprised that I felt taken aback at a couple things I saw. I'd like to address them politely.

I read the following phrases used to describe sex with someone wearing a strap-on: "simulate hetero sex," and "act out male-female dynamics" - and they were both used in a negative context. Wow, really? I saw that Lady Snow addressed this a bit, but wanted to add my two cents. I have not, in the last 13 years, been with someone who did not choose to use a strap-on, and I have to say, I never felt even once that my relationship - or the act of sex within that relationship - was "simulating" anything! Trust me, every time it was the genuine article, an original piece of art. Granted, I at times "act out" lots of naughty things, but it never has to do with pretending to be straight. :pirate: :girleating: :spank: :bellydancer:

This attitude seems reminiscent of verbiage used decades ago by feminist lesbians about how the B/F dynamic was in itself a pretend version of heterosexuality. I have to say, if the people participating in sex say they are queer - and believe they are queer - aren't they queer, and isn't that sex ultimately queer? Can I not claim a sexual act for myself because it feels good and sexy, without being told - not only by the straight world - that it isn't gay enough? Now that I'm on a roll, it feels a lot like being in a queer space and being told by some random person that it's not for straight girls like me b/c i'm wearing heels, a skirt, and long hair.

Isn't one of the first rules that you learn when you get your queer handbook to believe what someone tells you about their own identity? Come on now. Pretending to be straight has never entered my mind while being fucked by a butch or transguy. Even with a cock. Even on my back, in missionary position, in the dark!

*Sweet ladylike smile* Now. With regard to the spirit of this thread, my initial response, before I saw red, was that I personally have no preference when it comes to my lover packing or not. I've been with a transman who occasionally packed, a female-identified person who did constantly except to sleep, and another who never packed. In none of these situations was I turned-off by the lack of packing, nor did it change my perception of that person's gender or butchness.

This is my actual point, with that background in place: I personally find many things attractive about people I love. If my lover packs, it's a turn-on because it signifies something about her or him. I've had lovers who were into breasts until they fell for me, and now they're small-waist/ big-hip lovers. It's me that they love, and particular turn-ons follow naturally. If I were to fall in love with someone who had lots of freckles, that would become something I adored... but it's not something I need or that I seek out. If my spouse later had no freckles, would I miss them? Of course not. Each relationship is different. Packing is different things to different butches, and it isn't about what's between someone's legs that is important, it's about the energy with which they carry themselves - packing or not.

It is sad for me to think that there are butches who have been made to feel less a part of the community, or who have called into question their own feelings of masculinity because of their choices to pack or not. Likewise, people who do choose to pack have different reasons for it. Some may like the gender fuck of it, some may feel it helps them to feel more comfortable in the world or in their bodies to have that sensation. There are many other reasons. I'd like for all of us not to make presumptions about the meaning of packing or the lack of packing, and realize that we are all different, and that packing is not a sign or symptom of any level of gender-queer or masculinity.

*end novella*
I think the above is very true. I am one of those older feminist who was not quieter enough if I grabbed up a few decades ago, not poo logical enough because of my clothes for the radical lesbians. I am female identified but love being butch in bed. As others know I have just asked myself to pack and it has to do with the sensuality of the packing not gender bending. In my younger days of we wanted to use and like cock in bed it was on pc. I can now see what I was denying myself great joy.
When our community was denied our desires to celebrate all on the continuum we join the heteronormative world in maintaining our own oppression.

[imperfect_cupcake]

None of my partners have ever soft packed.

A few have strapped under their clothes if we went out to a dyke night to fool around in the back. or a doorway on the walk home. Of course we've fooled around without it, but there has been the rare partner (some of them not IDing as butch) that "packed for play"

But generally, no. most of them have not.

[*Anya*]

My GF is butch. I recently asked her if she ever thought about packing or had any desire to do so and her answer was no.

Do I have any desire for her to do so?

Answer to that is also no.

This has nothing to do with our enjoyment of an occasional strap nor does it have anything to do with our being feminists.

Different strokes...

...literally and figuratively.

[*Anya*]

Didn't mean for my finger to hit the >>>?<<< in the title below.

[Scots_On_The_Rocks]

I did the whole packing thing for a couple of years. And while at first I was all about it as that I thought it would make me feel more "male", but as time went on, I found that what made me male in my eyes was not some synthesized chunk of silicone intricately tucked into my boxerbreifs. And well, I have gotten to a point now, that packing may be done on occasion, but it is a rare occasion these days...like total blue moon, hell has just frozen over occasion. As I alluded to earlier, being male-identified for me is about so much more than "props", it is about the soul and essence of me. I can just as easily be male with breasts and a vagina as anyone else can. So, yeah, no packing these days....it's just too much work to further elaborate on something I see myself as anyways.

[Cin]

I have never been interested in soft packing. Nothing wrong with it, I'm just not interested. Once in awhile I can see packing something I can use. But overall not my thing.

[Martina]

I have been with butches who have a cock and those who do not. What I don't get is defining butch -- and femmes do this too -- by whether someone has a cock or not. As many people have said on other threads, some femmes have cock. People of all genders have cock. People of all genders do not.

I still see that association made here all the time. Cock equals butch. Someone said recently that she only dates butches with cocks. That's cool. But as I recall she went on to equate butch with having cock. I doubt she meant it the way it read. I didn't call her on it, and I don't think anyone else did. But it's very casual and common in our community to equate the two. Doesn't work. It's just not the way the world is. People are too complex for that.

[LexiLove]

My GF is butch. I recently asked her if she ever thought about packing or had any desire to do so and her answer was no.

Do I have any desire for her to do so?

Answer to that is also no.

This has nothing to do with our enjoyment of an occasional strap nor does it have anything to do with our being feminists.

Different strokes...

...literally and figuratively.

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is exactly the situation with my girl and I.

[whale]

I don't and no plans to.

[Paradox]

I don't pack or bind. I've thought about it but I like to be light as possible.
To each their own.

[Rockinonahigh]

Year's ago while I was in college I met a couple of queer ladies that I had classes with,one night we were having a poker party at their home,someone brought up packing and strap on sex.I herd about it but hadn't considered spending the cash for any of it cause simply it did nothing for me.Now as time rolls on I started to wonder about giving it a try,so I spent a bunch of $$$ to get the good stuff.I tried it,it was o.k. but didn't really fit,I didn't see the hoop la about it and still don't.Now the bag sits in the closet gathering dust.One thing that bugs me as well as puts me off is that it seems to be the first thing or nearly the first that I get ask about,"do you, " "why not","come on all butches do it" ect..ect.If packing make me butch or more so I could care less i'm fine with out doing so, besides if packing or strap on sex makes or breaks a relationship it wasn't men't to be.As for binding,yes I do wear a spandex t-shirt to keep them where they need to be.

[Tuff Stuff]

I read the "Packing 101" thread, and rather than derail it, I'm curious if I'm the only butch here who doesn't pack, and has no interest in packing?

I only pack when I play.
Another poster wrote,it misses with their head when it comes off,huh?
tg my comes off...personally I can't see myself packing 24/7.

I don't bind,either...not much there to hide.

That is all

[Mormegil]

I dont pack or bind and Im a 44dd . Doesnt make me feel any less masculine not to. just like having larger breasts doesnt bother me other than they get in the way sometimes and they seem to be bra slayers. You can also however use them as a tray to lay a sandwich on when your relaxing back on the couch...just saying.