2012 - What does it mean to you?

[friskyfemme]

Welcome all,

We are daily reminded that December 21, 2012 is fast approaching. This forum is a place to discuss your beliefs, ideas, concerns of the 'end of the world' approaching. Please be respectful in your discussion and replies.

[SuperFemme]

I am glad that I have already lived through a few "end of the world" dates.
Personally, I think it is used by organized religion as a way to manipulate people through fear. Dinner party at my house Dec. 22 2012. The guest of honor will be Jesus. (f)

[Hudson]

YouTube- Sarah palin in 2012 SNL keith Olbermann

[friskyfemme]

I received a Vision during a meditation in 1994 which is the basis for my belief system. I was 'born' with a gift of precognition. As a child, I was told it was a series of coincidences and or my imagination. By the time I reached puberty, I had accepted those explanations and stopped paying attention to any premonitions that came about. I went from a devote Catholic to an atheist at this same timeframe. In my 20s I began to reexamine the possibility that there was 'something' bigger than each of us as human beings. I pretty well held that idea until my early 40s. I studied and discussed many religions, my ancestry (Scandianavian) beliefs, and shared my life with three individuals from different Native American Nations. A number of my ceremonies were adopted from these. I also embrace a number of the Asian Pacific Islander, Middle Eastern,and Norse traditions. I do believe that our earth's crust is shifting validated by scientific research and discovery of the movement of the North Pole. I do ccept that the seasons are shifting in response to this. I am very intrigued with the pyramids in Egypt nd in Mexico. These that are interpreted as calendars for the end of the world December 21, 2012. This correspoding to the Bible's 'Book of Revelation'. I don't personally ear this time arriving, I see i as a metamorphsis of human beings into loving, caring, sharing, peaceful beings with extraordinary capabilities of healing on all levels of being.

[friskyfemme]

I am glad that I have already lived through a few "end of the world" dates.
Personally, I think it is used by organized religion as a way to manipulate people through fear. Dinner party at my house Dec. 22 2012. The guest of honor will be Jesus. (f)

I would like to attend. It would definitely make great table discussion. I have so many questions. :)

[Rufusboi]

Welcome all,

We are daily reminded that December 21, 2012 is fast approaching. This forum is a place to discuss your beliefs, ideas, concerns of the 'end of the world' approaching. Please be respectful in your discussion and replies.

Hello - my belief is that it is all media hype to push the movie that came out (is coming out?). Rufus

[Hudson]

Hello - my belief is that it is all media hype to push the movie that came out (is coming out?). Rufus

Totally. That along with tons of books to be sold and other agendas needing to be fueled/filled.

The Mayan calendar was designed to be cyclical, so the fact that it comes to an end in December 2012 means it's the end of the great calendar cycle in Mayan society (as SuperFemme mentioned past 'ends' she's lived through - remember when our society was gonna end at the millenium?) not the 'end of the world'. In fact, if the Mayan calendar does not even end then, then why in the world does anyone believe there is any evidence to suggest that the Mayans (or anyone for that matter) knew when the world's going to end?

I wonder, on the winter solstice in 2012, when the sun will be aligned with the center of the Milky Way for the first time in about 26,000 years and whatever energy typically streams from it's nougaty center to the earth will be disrupted, if we'll be able to sell a bunch of candy bars.

[Corkey]

Welcome all,

We are daily reminded that December 21, 2012 is fast approaching. This forum is a place to discuss your beliefs, ideas, concerns of the 'end of the world' approaching. Please be respectful in your discussion and replies.

It means to me that I have to get a new debit card, as it expires then, oh and to call my friend on the 22nd to see how he's doing. Thanks for the reminder!

[Corkey]

See this is what I find rather amusing about the End of Timers, in the Bible it clearly states that the day and time of the end of days isn't known by any man. Therefore how could the Maya know that their calendar would be held captive by the very same religion who believes in the Bible. Beyond belief for me. It isn't the end of the earth, it is the end of a calendar cycle, the 4th one. See life goes on........

[Corkey]

I wonder, on the winter solstice in 2012, when the sun will be aligned with the center of the Milky Way for the first time in about 26,000 years and whatever energy typically streams from it's nougaty center to the earth will be disrupted, if we'll be able to sell a bunch of candy bars.



This has already happened 4 years ago according to the Science channel, the aligning of the center of our galexy and the earth and sun, um pinches m'self, yep still here.

[Andrew, Jr.]

This will be a time of change for people. Other than that, I am going to refrain from posting my true feelings/beliefs.

Superfemme, I want to come to your dinner party. Tell me what to bring.

[Dean Thoreau]

My oldest daughter will turn 25 on that day......it will mean to me a big celebration....

with regard to the mayan calendar and the numerous misinterpretations and the movie that just feeds into all that stuff.... ehhhhhh
I am sure the good christians that are pushing for a nuclear holocaust in the middle east will work to make sure it does not occur on that day....cause if it does then "non christians" were right.

:sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep:

[lillith]

What also needs to be remembered is that this alignment will last for only a fraction of a second and the planets will go about on their orbits. So, unless the galaxy blinks and we all miss it, life will go on.

[hottprof]

well the year 2012...

I will turn 30...

I will run my first marathon and...

if that does not kill me I will hopefully be invited to previsouly said dinner party...

only time will tell... we all have survived the millenium so why not wait to see whats next...

if it is the end of the world or spaceships come and take us away, or God comes down and is all God like.. I just hope I am with my family and loved ones... and no matter what happens we are all at peace with one another...

the end (so to speak)

Smiles :frog:

[WolfyOne]

Well, after reading all the posts, it means I get to have dinner in California the day after.....yay!!!

[MsDemeanor]

Dec 21, 2012 is a super duper all out special day because it's our anniversary, as is Dec 21, 2011, as is Dec 21, 2010, as is tomorrow.

The world better fucking not end on my anniversary. You wanna see wrath?

[weatherboi]

Dec 21, 2012 is a super duper all out special day because it's our anniversary, as is Dec 21, 2011, as is Dec 21, 2010, as is tomorrow.

The world better fucking not end on my anniversary. You wanna see wrath?

Not really!!

:twitch: Happy Anniversary MsDemeanor/MrDemeanor

[morningstar55]

2012 to me??
i think its just a hype thing........
but i i also believe in god.
some might think its silly to believe in that.......... but i dont.
but i also believe there are a lot of unexplained mystery's on this earth.

i also believe in my travels and seeing the world from this truck... that there has to be more then what i can see.
i LOVE this song

YouTube- Brooks & Dunn believe

[MsDemeanor]

I found the truth:


Bizarro, by Dan Piraro, Dec 21, 2009 comic: linkyloo (http://www.seattlepi.com/fun/Bizarro.asp?date=20091221)

[Gemme]

Dec 21, 2012 is a super duper all out special day because it's our anniversary, as is Dec 21, 2011, as is Dec 21, 2010, as is tomorrow.

The world better fucking not end on my anniversary. You wanna see wrath?

December 21st was my anniversary too! And to the one I liked, so that's a good thing.

Happy Anniversary!

[Joe Mario]

Why does everyone get all jiggy over the Neptune Cycle?

...Just askin'...

[Blade]

I agree with others here, it's a bunch of hype and as someone said I've already lived through several end of the world dates. I figure it like this. We are all gonna die sometime. It's what we all have in common. The minute of birth we start to die. So I've been waiting 47 yrs to die, and by then it will be 50 yrs I've waited to die. So if it comes it comes and if it don't then perhaps I'll make 51, but lets not rush things I want to finish 47,and do 48 and 49 first.

[Boots13]

I'm definitely curious. Just as I was curious about Y2K, and I'm observant and curious about nuclear warheads being constructed. I'm also curious
about biological warfare, and terrorism and I have a mild curiosity over errant meteors slingshoting their way to terra firma.

I guess, in short, while these things snag my attention, what can I/we really do about things that escape our immediate control ?

I think something is bound to happen somewhere...then I'll go get a cup of coffee and be glad some god-awful cataclysmic event didn't take place.

And in the meantime live every moment like it might...cause you never know.

[Sachita]

I think something will happen. I'm just not sure what.

[SuperFemme]

I think 2012 will begin an averge weight of 235 amongst women.

Who is average now bitches?

[LadyFlamezzz]

I watched the big documentary on the supposed event and I came away with this idea....true enough the milky way does have a black hole in the center which we all know the gravitational pull of a black hole, right? The alignment with our core <earth> has to have some kind of effect much like that of a full moon accept greater. The oceans waters will rise creating floods. To what degree who knows. The cycle of life could be changed drastically if the earths movement is changed to the .1 degree they said it would, it would create a counter clockwise rotation flipping the poles. I don't think this would be an over night event though. It would take years and years causing a gradual altering of the entire life cycle on the planet.
:deepthoughts:
just my three cents

[Write14u]

I tend to agree with Corkey. I'm not sure why the Bible thumpers are jumping on this one since the Bible says that: No man knows the hour or day.
I remember growing up in the church and there being a big deal made of 1984 ...and then 1999. Fascinating stuff, and while Revelations does talk of end times, wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc.... well, those things have been going on for a long time too.

[Jet]

Just another year, FF

[dreadgeek]

I watched the big documentary on the supposed event and I came away with this idea....true enough the milky way does have a black hole in the center which we all know the gravitational pull of a black hole, right? The alignment with our core <earth> has to have some kind of effect much like that of a full moon accept greater. The oceans waters will rise creating floods. To what degree who knows. The cycle of life could be changed drastically if the earths movement is changed to the .1 degree they said it would, it would create a counter clockwise rotation flipping the poles. I don't think this would be an over night event though. It would take years and years causing a gradual altering of the entire life cycle on the planet.
:deepthoughts:
just my three cents


I hate to ruin the party here (well, sort of) but there's a couple of things I think need to be clarified here because the supposed 'science' behind the 2012 idea is actually a misunderstanding of the science.

I'll take these one-by-one:


Black hole at the center of the galaxy: Is there a black hole at the center of the galaxy? Yes. Does that black hole have any gravitational effect on the Earth? No. At least none that is measurable. Why? Because gravity falls off according to the inverse square law. What this means is that, like all other measurable fields, the strength declines as a *square* of the distance to the source of that field. Even though the supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy has a gigantic gravitational field, it is not strong enough to have any effect on our local neighborhood. What holds our solar system in its little neighborhood of the Milky Way is the angular momentum of the solar system in relation to the rest of the galaxy, NOT the supermassive black hole itself. To give you a sense of the gravitational forces effecting Earth consider the following three celestial bodies: the Sun, the Moon, and Jupiter. Obviously the Sun, being the center of gravity for the solar system has the largest effect. The Moon has an effect on the Earth which causes the tides. Jupiter, which is the next largest gravitational body in the Solar system, has an effect ONLY in as much as it acts like a gigantic vacuum cleaner hoovering up Oort cloud objects (read comets) and asteroids before they reach the inner solar system.
Polar shift: Here the misunderstanding is caused by mistaking the magnetic North pole from the arbitrary geologic point we label the North pole. These are not the same thing. As it turns out, what we *call* the North pole happens to correlate with the magnetic North pole but that has not always been the case. At various points in the Earth's history, the magnetic poles have flipped and the magnetic poles do 'wander' a bit because of geophysics of the Earth's core (which is what causes the Earth's magnetic field). However, these flips are ONLY of the magnetic poles and not the *physical* (arbitrary) points on the map we call the North and South poles. That would require rotating the Earth 180 degrees on its axis. Could this happen? Highly doubtful and any force that COULD do that would sterilize the surface of the Earth. How can we be so certain of this? Two events, one in the very distant past and one in the relatively recent past (on geologic terms not human terms) demonstrates why. At some point, the object that became the Moon slammed into the early Earth almost shattering the planet and creating the Earth-Moon gravitational system. This impact most likely created the 23 degree axial tilt of the Earth (the Earth does not, in fact, rotate perpendicular to the plane of orbit but at an angle which is what gives us seasons). The other event is the last *major* impact the Earth went through which was the K-T extinction event which wiped out the dinosaurs. In that event an meteor about the size of Manhattan island (6 miles in diameter or so) slammed into the Earth. This impact was so traumatic that crystals on the *other* side of the planet from the impact have a 'shock mark' through them! It rang the planet like a bell and through up huge amounts of material into the atmosphere and wiped out 50 - 70 % of all life on the planet. But it did not effect either the angular momentum (rotation) or the orientation (axial tilt) of the Earth at all! Even if we took every single nuclear weapon on the planet, piled them all up on one side of the planet and detonated them simultaneously it would not change the axial tilt of the Earth.
Alignment with the galactic plane: Where to begin with this one? The simplest thing is that every December the Earth-Sun system lines up with the approximate center of the galaxy with no effect. There is nothing special about the galactic plane itself and Earth is not about to cross the galactic plane at any rate. The last time we did was several *million* years ago.
Solar follies: The last one is the idea that a massive solar flare will flip the Earth on its axis. Most of why this is *impossible* I've already covered in the polar shift section. However, it might be useful to just inject that a solar flare would NOT have the mass necessary to move the Earth at all because the Earth is hugely massive. Think about it this way. Imagine that you are in, say, a 747 on the tarmac. Someone shines a gigantic spotlight on the airplane. Will this cause the plane to move? No. Do all of those photons striking the plane actually put pressure on the plane? Yes, as a matter of fact they do but the amount of pressure compared with the mass of the plane is negligible. The same is true of any *conceivable* solar flare. Any flare that was large enough to cause us worry would not be because it would cause the Earth to change its axial orientation. Rather it would be that it would ionize the atmosphere shutting down our very complex electronic civilization. However, the magnetic field of the Earth protects us from the worst of those effects.
Meteor strikes: Might we be hit by a meteor in 2012? This is *possible* however, there are no *known* objects that will make a close pass to the Earth in 2012. The next near close pass of a major object is Apophis in 2029. That pass will be VERY close, beneath the orbit of geosynchronous orbit satellites (25K miles or so) but it is not expected to hit the Earth in 2029. However, there is a non-zero probability that it will pass through a *very* small region labeled the 'keyhole' which if it does, it *will* hit the Earth in 2035 when it is on its way out of the solar system. However, the 'keyhole' is a region of maybe only a five or ten miles. To give you a sense of context, imagine standing in New York City and trying to shoot a basket hanging somewhere in central China!


The whole 2012 thing is hype and nothing more. It sells books, it sells movie tickets but there is nothing to it. Dec 21 2012 will come and go and Dec 22 2012 will come and go. People who have made their money on the 2012 hysteria will have their money and they will then go on to pretend that they DIDN'T make predictions that failed to come true and will then start hyping the Apophis event in 2029. There is NO scientific basis for believing that anything at all interesting will happen on Dec 21 2012 unless humans do something incredibly stupid but that isn't the kind of thing we're discussing here.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

I watched the big documentary on the supposed event and I came away with this idea....true enough the milky way does have a black hole in the center which we all know the gravitational pull of a black hole, right? The alignment with our core <earth> has to have some kind of effect much like that of a full moon accept greater. The oceans waters will rise creating floods. To what degree who knows. The cycle of life could be changed drastically if the earths movement is changed to the .1 degree they said it would, it would create a counter clockwise rotation flipping the poles. I don't think this would be an over night event though. It would take years and years causing a gradual altering of the entire life cycle on the planet.
:deepthoughts:
just my three cents


Lady Flamezz:

I thought I'd add a bit more about the supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy and why it has no measurable effect on us. In order to understand the full implications of this, it's necessary to dive a bit deeper into gravity--what it is and how it works.

So....

Gravity is the warping of space-time by the presence of mass. The more massive an object is, the more gravitational influence it has. One implication of this is that, EVERYTHING with mass has SOME gravitational influence. That includes you, me, and everything else. However, your mass compared with the mass of the Earth is absolutely negligible so for all practical purposes we can ignore the mass of living things for the kinds of applications we're talking about. Another reason why we can ignore the mass of living things is that gravity is a field and ALL fields obey the inverse square law. To understand this falling off, let's take an ideal situation.

Imagine a sphere that has mass. At distance 1R from the sphere, let's say that there are 9 'lines of force' radiating out in all directions contained in a box that we'll label B1. The lines of force in B1 will be F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F At distance 2R there will be *four* foxes which will have a pattern like B1: F-F-F B2: F-F-F B3: F-F B4: F-F. At distance 3R: there will be *nine* boxes with one line of force. The more F's in a box the greater the force. So a box with 9 lines of force in it has a greater amount of force than a box with one line of force.

The reason I explained this was to give you some way of visualizing what is happening with the gravitational force between the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way and the Earth. Now, we are 30,000 light years from the galactic center. A light year is 5,878,488,057,210 miles. That is an incomprehensible distance! To put it into scale, it takes light about 8 minutes to traverse the 93 million miles from the Sun to Earth. Moving at that speed it takes 30,000 years to traverse the distance between the Sun and the galactic center. Gravity propagates through space at the speed of light. Now, what I'm trying to get you to visualize is this: the gravitational effect of the galactic center is negligible while still being non-zero. However, it is so negligible as to not be worth considering for ANY applications that we're likely to use. (The only one I can think of where we would need it is to account for what is caused 'gravity lensing' when dealing with an object on the *other* side of the galaxy from us.)

The gravitational force of the galactic center has NO effect on the tides (which are effected by the Moon pulling on the crust of the Earth slightly deforming it and causing the water to rise).

The axial tilt of the Earth does not stay precisely at 23 degrees, by the way. It actually precedes at MORE than the .1 degree you mention (it actually changes about 1 degree over a 72 year cycle).

As far as the Earth ever reversing its rotational direction that will NEVER happen. The angular momentum of the Earth (angular momentum is what keeps you upright when riding a bike) has so much energy in it that any force that would change that angular momentum enough to effect our rotation so drastically would literally shatter the Earth into pieces.

Cheers
Aj

[Jet]

I like the informative post by da geek Personally, I don't subscribe to the ancients, in theories or conjecture or anything paranormal. I believe in logic and scientific proof. I also believe is that God has things in control. I believe if we're meant to know things that become facts, we'll know.

Sidebar: I don't regard God, the supernatural or preter-natural as paranormal in the usual sense.

[Apocalipstic]

Yeahhh, how many times has Earth been supposed to end in my life time alone?

When I was a kid I would get all bent out of shape and scared, now I am jaded. 2012 will be just another year. Probably more annoying than usual with people acting like they did in Y2K and stocking up on wheat, water and Spam.

Really interesting posts as always AJ!

and

For those of you who do believe in the "Celestial Dictaphone" version of the Bible. Jesus warned his followers several times that the end would happen when we least expect it.

[NJFemmie]

From as astrological standpoint - the Pluto-Jupiter-Saturn quincunx on that date does signify an intense spiritual change/enlightenment of sort - also indicating a 'painful' transformation for some (thanks to Saturn and Jupiter). In a nutshell, it does signifies a new beginning - both on a personal level and a collective level. (These planets are more "generational" than they are "individual" and the effects vary upon the placement of these planets in a person's chart.)

Yeah, I know .. blah blah blah. It means something is going to happen, but I really don't believe it will be the end of the physical world. It might feel that way to some - (but that will be more on an emotional level).

Change is good, even if it feels bad at first.

Otherwise, I'll be 46 in 2012, Mare will be 49. Hopefully by then, we'll have our farm and a pot belly pig named Harold. Oh and a chicken, and maybe a horse or two. (and no, not of the apocalyptic breed).

[Sachita]

From as astrological standpoint - the Pluto-Jupiter-Saturn quincunx on that date does signify an intense spiritual change/enlightenment of sort - also indicating a 'painful' transformation for some (thanks to Saturn and Jupiter). In a nutshell, it does signifies a new beginning - both on a personal level and a collective level. (These planets are more "generational" than they are "individual" and the effects vary upon the placement of these planets in a person's chart.)

Yeah, I know .. blah blah blah. It means something is going to happen, but I really don't believe it will be the end of the physical world. It might feel that way to some - (but that will be more on an emotional level).

Change is good, even if it feels bad at first.

Otherwise, I'll be 46 in 2012, Mare will be 49. Hopefully by then, we'll have our farm and a pot belly pig named Harold. Oh and a chicken, and maybe a horse or two. (and no, not of the apocalyptic breed).

I totally agree with you. How exactly it will manifest is yet to be seen. I will always be prepared for things but my most important preparation is my spiritual consciousness. I have been increase my vibration and doing what I need to do to prepare for the future, whatever that means.

Although I am not an expert I am certain it's all about
Quantum Physics
http://library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html

What reality will you manifest?

I will be with my soulmate, we will be happy each moment we breathe. It will be our commitment to feed each other and keep each other safe.

Things are aligning and change is inevitable. The planet has always shifted and change. This will be great change. Will it happen all one one day? No, I dont think so but i do believe there will be a great sign. Its already happening all around us.

YouTube- Lisa Thiel - Song to Inanna

[DELSDAUGHTER]

nothing...over my life time..they have said the world was gonna end a couple of times....i will believe when i see it........and by that time i wont have time to care anyway

[dreadgeek]

Although I am not an expert I am certain it's all about
Quantum Physics
http://library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html



I don't see how it could have anything to do with quantum physics. The reasons for this will require a bit of explanation.

QM (quantum physics) is a theory dealing only with microscopic objects. By this I mean that it really only deals with *sub-atomic* objects. The reason for this is that the sub-atomic world deals with objects on what is called the Planck length. The Planck length is the smallest conceivable distance. It is 10^-43 (that's a 1 with 43 zeros in front of it). Atoms are HUGE compared to the Planck length. Once you start talking about molecules and other macro-objects (and for our purposes here even a single bacterial spore is a macro-object) all of the various statistical effects cancel one another out and we can safely treat that object as a classical phenomena (meaning we don't need to use quantum physics). (This is not ALWAYS the case, computer circuitry is becoming so small that engineers have to take into account quantum mechanical effects but they are building logic gates that are only, maybe, a dozen or so atoms across. To give you a sense of scale the average human hair is between 800,000 and 1,200,000 atoms across.)

Quantum mechanics is necessary when talking about things like the nucleus of an atom or the electron shells around that nucleus but that is really about all. The only OTHER exception I can think of is when you are dealing with the interior of a black hole (which, no matter the size of the black hole's event horizon can be treated as a singularity at or a little larger than the Planck length). However, it's important to note that this ONLY applies to the *interior* of a black hole, once you are beyond the event horizon black holes can be treated as relativistic objects because they are so massive and you can ignore any quantum mechanical effects.

Fritjof Capra and Fred Alan Wolf (Dr. Quantum) not-with-standing people in the mainstream of physics do not ascribe quantum mechanical effects to macro-objects.

Another important thing to remember about quantum mechanics is that it is a *statistical* theory. While it is still deterministic what is usually talked about is the probability that, for instance, a given electron will be found in a given orbit (shell) of an atom.

Quantum mechanics is a vital part of what is called the Standard Model of particle physics but the key words here are *particle* physics. QM enables physicists to describe the four fundamental forces (electromagnetic, gravitational, strong and weak nuclear)*, what they are made of (quarks and bozons) and why they have the strengths they do. However, once you are talking about objects *effected* by those forces typically quantum mechanics is not particularly useful.

Anything the size of the Earth and certainly any living things ON the Earth are too large and too hot (from a thermodynamic perspective) for quantum mechanics to apply to them. Even a single neuron in your brain is too large and too hot for quantum mechanics to be usefully applied to it.

I'm not saying that it is absolutely *impossible* just very, very, very, very, very, very improbable!

*The four forces in order of strength are:


Strong nuclear force: Responsible for holding atoms together. Messenger particle is the gluon.
Weak nuclear force: Responsible for atomic decay. Messenger particle the W and Z gauge bozons.
Electromagnetic force: Responsible for light, electricity and magnetism. Messenger particle is the photon.**
Gravity: Warping of space-time by the presence of mass. Messenger particle is the graviton.


** To appreciate the difference in strength values between the electromagnetic force and the gravitational force (the two forces we're most familiar with) try this. During a thunderstorm take a comb and rub it on your shirt (best if it is wool) then hold that comb over a piece of unimpeded paper sitting on your desk. It should lift the paper. Think about this. It takes the mass of the entire PLANET to hold the paper on the desk and only the small amount of static electricity you can generate during a thunderstorm with a comb to overcome the planet's gravity!

Here is a link to a paper I wrote on the misuse of quantum mechanics for a philosophy of science class last term. While I wrote it with my professor (who was a chemist in another career incarnation) as a target audience it should still be accessible to most people (I hope):

http://web.me.com/dreadgeek/Dreaded_Memes/Blog/Entries/2009/12/30_quantum_mysticism.html

[Cyclopea]

Here is a link to a paper I wrote on the misuse of quantum mechanics for a philosophy of science class last term. While I wrote it with my professor (who was a chemist in another career incarnation) as a target audience it should still be accessible to most people (I hope):

http://web.me.com/dreadgeek/Dreaded_Memes/Blog/Entries/2009/12/30_quantum_mysticism.html

That is a fantastic paper and I wish it was short enough to have posted it here directly. You are very good at explaining complex theories to a layperson.
That paper deserves a thread of it's own.
Just say No to New Age Fascism! ;)
"any meaning-creation systems we deploy should be in line with science or, if that is not possible, they should stay as far away from the purview of science as is humanly possible." Indeed.

[Glenn]

Last Nov. 3, www.bbc.co.uk aired a documentary on the subject of black holes. In the search of Black Holes they found something that is the building block of existence, and a subject that keeps the balance in the Universe. They said this discovery has frightened scientists as they can't make sense of it. They have found something which cannot be seen, it is so small yet it's mass equals infinity. It's where time stops and there is no Space. This is where physics fails. This is where the Universe came from and is at the centre of each black hole. It cannot be seen, but will give traces of light. There are millions of it, and I'm sure science will discover it is closer to home then they think. Science has given this place where infinite Gravity and Infinite Density exists the name "Singularity." This "Singularity" is something they cannot explain as the equations make this equal Infinity. Theory of Relativity is thrown out the window, and when they use Quatum Mechanics it gets even worse as this equals Infinity x Infinity. Astrologically, there will be an alignment, but we cannot say for certain what will occur.

[dreadgeek]

Last Nov. 3, www.bbc.co.uk aired a documentary on the subject of black holes. In the search of Black Holes they found something that is the building block of existence, and a subject that keeps the balance in the Universe. They said this discovery has frightened scientists as they can't make sense of it. They have found something which cannot be seen, it is so small yet it's mass equals infinity. It's where time stops and there is no Space. This is where physics fails. This is where the Universe came from and is at the centre of each black hole. It cannot be seen, but will give traces of light. There are millions of it, and I'm sure science will discover it is closer to home then they think. Science has given this place where infinite Gravity and Infinite Density exists the name "Singularity." This "Singularity" is something they cannot explain as the equations make this equal Infinity. Theory of Relativity is thrown out the window, and when they use Quatum Mechanics it gets even worse as this equals Infinity x Infinity. Astrologically, there will be an alignment, but we cannot say for certain what will occur.

Okay, a bit of clarification. A singularity is a mathematical construction to describe the center of a black hole. It doesn't terrify scientists it is interesting. The issue with the interior of a black hole is that you need two different, mutually exclusive models, to deal with it. Those two models are quantum mechanics (which deals with very small objects as discussed above) and general relativity. The problem with this is that the two theories do *not* agree and when you try to use them both, you get nonsensical answers (infinity). There are several prospects on the table to deal with this situation, string theory is one (although it may not pan out) and loop quantum gravity is another. Both are altogether too arcane and technical for me to delve into here.

The singularity as the beginning of the Universe is not used anymore. It is an artifact of cosmology that includes general relativity but not quantum mechanics. If you 'roll the tape backwards' to the beginning of the Universe without incorporating quantum mechanics you end up with an infinitely dense mass in an infinitely small space (a singularity). However, later developments in cosmology that *do* incorporate quantum mechanics eliminate the need for a singularity and no one in cosmology uses it any longer.

Singularities do *not* keep the balance of the Universe because the Universe is not in balance. Dark matter and dark energy (whatever they are) are *far* more important at explaining the expansion of the Universe (and thus its topology) than black holes or singularities.

Actually if there were a black hole in our immediate neighborhood, we would detect it. They are NOT subtle objects. Black holes have a number of very noticeable effects if they are in the neighborhood of other objects so it would NOT sneak up on us. Our sun lacks the mass to become a black hole by a couple of orders of magnitude. The nearest black hole to us is the SMBH at the center of the galaxy and that is 30,000 light years away (that's 17,634,641,716,300,000 miles away!).

There are millions of black holes, in fact all the spiral galaxies appear to have supermassive black holes at the center of them but they are ALL very far away from us.

To say that black holes terrify scientists because we don't fully understand the physics of them is an insult to scientists. It is that lack of understanding that creates interesting scientific work. The only reason it would terrify them if, for some reason, we found one in our immediate (solar) neighborhood but there isn't one and there isn't anything near (within a few hundred light years) massive enough to create one.


Cheers
Aj

[SuperFemme]

I think he is responsible for the singularity:

http://daisydownunder.com/images/M-spockA.jpg

[SuperFemme]

http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2007/12/xfiles-mulder-and-scully.jpg

[Jess]

I believe if sheit hits the proverbial fan , then I will have lived and loved my woman for the last/ next and best two years of our lives.

Make it so.

[SuperFemme]

YouTube- It's the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine)- Historical Music Video

[Strappie]

Well if I make it that long, then 2012 will be a blast!!

[Strappie]

Oh and I'll get a shinny new check card in the mail..

[Jess]

Oh and I'll get a shinny new check card in the mail..
and if everything blows up.. your debts will be forgotten!!!

[dreadgeek]

That is a fantastic paper and I wish it was short enough to have posted it here directly. You are very good at explaining complex theories to a layperson.
That paper deserves a thread of it's own.
Just say No to New Age Fascism! ;)
"any meaning-creation systems we deploy should be in line with science or, if that is not possible, they should stay as far away from the purview of science as is humanly possible." Indeed.

Thank you for the praise. I enjoyed writing it and my professor thought it was a lot of fun to read. I appreciate your saying that I was able to make it understandable because one of the books I would really like to write at some point is a full-bodied exploration of what a new meaning-creating system would look like that took, as a jumping-off point, the world as described by science.

One thing that has caused me to lose sleep over the last decade or so is that I have come to realize that our meaning-creating systems (read religion or spirituality) are largely out-of-date. Most of them describe a world that is actually very much contrary to the world as described by modern science. This is something that we can ill-afford any longer because there are some very big questions that are either barreling down on us or have already arrived and our meaning-creating systems do not appear to have the tools to deal with them.

I'll mention three to illustrate the kinds of problems I'm talking about:

1) Climate change. We *must* deal with this problem but it is not so simple or straight-forward as all of us getting rid of our cars and no longer using fossil fuels. Unless you have the stomach for a VERY large die-off (think half the human population) we can't just turn the clock back to the pre-agricultural era. The agricultural era (pre-Industrial revolution) can't sustain 6 billion+ people. What's more, those of us in the nations that have *already* passed to a post-industrial nation cannot ethically go to those nations that have yet to pass through the industrial phase and say "yes, granted, we chopped down our forests and paved over everything in sight but YOU can't do that because the planet can't afford it so, sorry, it's no better than subsistence agriculture for you and your descendants".

2) Advances in biology. Within our lifetimes some very interesting things are going to happen. One of which is that we are going to develop truly NEW lifeforms. By this I mean DNA patterns that have *never* existed, in any form, on this planet before. The first artificial cell has been created. A truly novel form of life is on the horizon. What's more, at this point, cloning is an engineering problem and not a scientific problem. (The difference here is this: the scientific problem is "can it be done" the engineering problem is "how do we do this efficiently, safely and economically".) When human clones exist what do we do then?

3) Sentient machines. While I think this one may be the most distant from where we sit now, at *some* point I think we're going to have to deal with a truly sentient machine. It may be a robot, it may be an AI but it will be self-aware. What rights should a self-aware artifact have? Should it own itself or can it be owned by its creator?

NONE of the religions or spiritual systems created so far appear to have any real means of dealing with these questions and they are *deep* questions. At least two of those I expect to see on our plates in my lifetime. The last one is most likely beyond the horizon of my life but will almost certainly be addressed by the time my granddaughter is an old woman. We currently don't have the tools to solve the problems. "We shouldn't play god" isn't an answer. "This or that ancient civilization was in harmony with nature" isn't an answer even if it were true (and it has never been true for any civilization). "We shouldn't build such things" isn't an answer. "The Bible forbids it" isn't an answer. All our cop-outs and short-cuts to actually truly entering into the question.

What's more most of our meaning-creating system misappropriate scientific *sounding* language to bolster their cases. The invocation of quantum mechanics is just the latest and most egregious example of this. Quantum theory doesn't say what New Agers say it does. At the same time, New Agers miss the elegance of beauty of what quantum mechanics *does* say because they are trying to make it into something it isn't. I love QM and wish I had the mathematics to read the literature on it in its native language but I don't (particle physicists take math classes that are, essentially, tuned for their field and while there is cross-over it is a different kind of mathematics than what I, as a biologist, will ever use). What I do know of QM, leaves me in awe with my head spinning because the sub-atomic world is so wonderfully wacky and weird. I wish that people who use QM as a way to give their spiritual beliefs the imprimatur of science would just sit with the subject matter, meet it on its *own* terms and try to wrap their heads around objects as small as an electron or try to imagine, really viscerally imagine, the problem of detecting the position and momentum of an electron at the same time. Once you've grasped that this is a problem that cannot be solved, ever, by anyone, under any circumstances, one gains an appreciation for just how majestic the universe is and just how puny our brains actually are.

One last thing before I close. I wish that more people truly internalized what several very eminent scientists have called the three blows to homo sapiens inflated sense of itself. Those three are this:

1) The heliocentric model. The insult here was that it took the Earth from being a special place in the Universe and made us realize that our planet is a perfectly ordinary nickel-iron rock, orbiting a completely undistinguished main-sequence star at the outer edge of a perfectly ordinary spiral galaxy.

2) Darwinian evolution by natural selection. The insult here is that it took us from being some special creation, above and beyond nature and told us that we are a large-brained African primate that is an absolute newcomer to this planet.

3) Neuroscience. The insult here is just getting warmed up. Already we are discovering that we ARE our brains. There are no thoughts you have that occur outside your brains. All your loves, all your joys are electrochemical reactions happening in your neural system. That doesn't mean that they are not *real* just that they are not *special*.

Cheers
Aj

[Cyclopea]

Thank you for the praise. I enjoyed writing it and my professor thought it was a lot of fun to read. I appreciate your saying that I was able to make it understandable because one of the books I would really like to write at some point is a full-bodied exploration of what a new meaning-creating system would look like that took, as a jumping-off point, the world as described by science.
That sounds fascinating. I can't imagine a formal merging of the two that doesn't end up in a cultic kool-aid situation- lol!


One thing that has caused me to lose sleep over the last decade or so is that I have come to realize that our meaning-creating systems (read religion or spirituality) are largely out-of-date. Most of them describe a world that is actually very much contrary to the world as described by modern science. This is something that we can ill-afford any longer because there are some very big questions that are either barreling down on us or have already arrived and our meaning-creating systems do not appear to have the tools to deal with them.

I'm not sure that religions have truly been "meaning systems" for some time now. I think they function as an ideological and cultural glue tying together human superorganisms which vie with each other for resources. Like a bacterial meme substrate. Ecstatic experiences result from abandoning the independent self into the comfort of the larger (super)organism.
I don't really see any religions embracing modernity itself, much less scientific and technological advances. Most religions seem to be concerned with creating a child-like infantilized worldview where some "great parent" cares for the believer and cradles them safely in a place of stasis.
I don't really see any religion embracing any technology or forward looking view but rather nostalgia for an era that believers feel existed when they were children, or an imagined nostalgia for an era that they feel must have existed in times past. In fact, "The Past Into The Future" might be an adequate slogan for the relationship religion has with science. Or maybe "The Past As We Fantasize It". In that context it will be ethicists, not religious folks, that "wrestle" with the future. Religion will just say "Future Bad."

I'll mention three to illustrate the kinds of problems I'm talking about:

1) Climate change. We *must* deal with this problem but it is not so simple or straight-forward as all of us getting rid of our cars and no longer using fossil fuels. Unless you have the stomach for a VERY large die-off (think half the human population) we can't just turn the clock back to the pre-agricultural era. The agricultural era (pre-Industrial revolution) can't sustain 6 billion+ people. What's more, those of us in the nations that have *already* passed to a post-industrial nation cannot ethically go to those nations that have yet to pass through the industrial phase and say "yes, granted, we chopped down our forests and paved over everything in sight but YOU can't do that because the planet can't afford it so, sorry, it's no better than subsistence agriculture for you and your descendants".

Well that would be nice. But a biological colony's prerogative is expansion in size and the allocating of increased resources for same. Therefore, only when decreased carbon emissions (etc.) increase "profit" will such changes be adopted. To do otherwise would require that a massive biological meta-organism be formed among all existing colonies, one that suddenly stopped expansion and practiced containment in response to a theoretical future threat. Both parts of that equation- that all countries/peoples/cultures would join together in agreement, and that such a uniform coalition would voluntarily cease seeking wealth, seem highly unlikely.

2) Advances in biology. Within our lifetimes some very interesting things are going to happen. One of which is that we are going to develop truly NEW lifeforms. By this I mean DNA patterns that have *never* existed, in any form, on this planet before. The first artificial cell has been created. A truly novel form of life is on the horizon. What's more, at this point, cloning is an engineering problem and not a scientific problem. (The difference here is this: the scientific problem is "can it be done" the engineering problem is "how do we do this efficiently, safely and economically".) When human clones exist what do we do then?

I agree, the age of "artificial" life is upon us. Novel lifeforms, cloning, transhumanism, total body transplants, etc. The ethicists will have their day, and taboos will be both created and discarded, and I believe it will all be quite shocking and distasteful to the backward-looking folks but human creativity is unstoppable and it will all eventually become quite rote and all of us alive now will have our DNA preserved as "heritage" DNA for our ancestors to play with. New social conventions will be adopted that are easily integrated into "meaning creation systems" as they truly exist (media/educational/cultural agreements), but not for religions which will continue to look backwards to an imaginary time.

3) Sentient machines. While I think this one may be the most distant from where we sit now, at *some* point I think we're going to have to deal with a truly sentient machine. It may be a robot, it may be an AI but it will be self-aware. What rights should a self-aware artifact have? Should it own itself or can it be owned by its creator?

It will be interesting to see how that plays out...

NONE of the religions or spiritual systems created so far appear to have any real means of dealing with these questions and they are *deep* questions. At least two of those I expect to see on our plates in my lifetime. The last one is most likely beyond the horizon of my life [You never know! :)] but will almost certainly be addressed by the time my granddaughter is an old woman. We currently don't have the tools to solve the problems. "We shouldn't play god" isn't an answer. "This or that ancient civilization was in harmony with nature" isn't an answer even if it were true (and it has never been true for any civilization). "We shouldn't build such things" isn't an answer. "The Bible forbids it" isn't an answer. All our cop-outs and short-cuts to actually truly entering into the question.

What's more most of our meaning-creating system misappropriate scientific *sounding* language to bolster their cases. The invocation of quantum mechanics is just the latest and most egregious example of this. Quantum theory doesn't say what New Agers say it does. At the same time, New Agers miss the elegance of beauty of what quantum mechanics *does* say because they are trying to make it into something it isn't.[I had to bold that part!] I love QM and wish I had the mathematics to read the literature on it in its native language but I don't (particle physicists take math classes that are, essentially, tuned for their field and while there is cross-over it is a different kind of mathematics than what I, as a biologist, will ever use). What I do know of QM, leaves me in awe with my head spinning because the sub-atomic world is so wonderfully wacky and weird. I wish that people who use QM as a way to give their spiritual beliefs the imprimatur of science would just sit with the subject matter, meet it on its *own* terms and try to wrap their heads around objects as small as an electron or try to imagine, really viscerally imagine, the problem of detecting the position and momentum of an electron at the same time. Once you've grasped that this is a problem that cannot be solved, ever, by anyone, under any circumstances, one gains an appreciation for just how majestic the universe is and just how puny our brains actually are.

One last thing before I close. I wish that more people truly internalized what several very eminent scientists have called the three blows to homo sapiens inflated sense of itself. Those three are this:

1) The heliocentric model. The insult here was that it took the Earth from being a special place in the Universe and made us realize that our planet is a perfectly ordinary nickel-iron rock, orbiting a completely undistinguished main-sequence star at the outer edge of a perfectly ordinary spiral galaxy.

Good point.

2) Darwinian evolution by natural selection. The insult here is that it took us from being some special creation, above and beyond nature and told us that we are a large-brained African primate that is an absolute newcomer to this planet.

I agree, and also think there is quite a bit more to understand about Group Selection and it's relationship to evolution, and what that "blow" will mean to our sense of culture and civilization (including religion).

3) Neuroscience. The insult here is just getting warmed up. Already we are discovering that we ARE our brains. There are no thoughts you have that occur outside your brains. All your loves, all your joys are electrochemical reactions happening in your neural system. That doesn't mean that they are not *real* just that they are not *special*.

I'm not sure how this will play out. Perhaps this is what will erode the sense of "self" and ultimately allow the formation of a larger colony?


Cheers
Aj------------------------
What fun!
I told you you should have started another thread on it!
:giggle:

[dreadgeek]

So I have a question for those who believe that 'something' will happen in 2012. Now, it's obvious that I don't think that anything will happen. 2012 will be a year like 2011. There will probably be a hurricane, there'll probably be an earthquake, some tornados will touch down somewhere in the midwest, there will be shootings and bombings. But since we can expect this to occur, I assume that these regular, sadly commonplace events aren't the kinds of things that the Mayans were talking about in their prophecies. So my question is this: what do you think that these prophecies actually predict?

One or two people have said that they think it will be a time of emotional transition. If you believe that my question for you is this: why on Earth would the Mayans make THAT prophecy? Let me try to put my confusion in context. Let's say you believe in fortune telling so you go to a fortune teller. She says to you, "in ten years you will be experiencing deep and profound thoughts". You pay whatever it costs for a fortune teller, walk out of her little storefront, step off the curb and are immediately struck by a bus, killing you instantly. Now, if this woman were a fortune teller and could really see the future, don't you think that the information that you were going to be struck by a bus would be a tad bit *more* important than that you were going to be experiencing deep thoughts a decade from now? (Which, of course, you aren't going to be around to be doing now.) The reason I ask is that if, in fact, the 2012 prophecy refers to some great emotional change that will take place planet-wide isn't that just a little prosaic? What's more, why is it that they could predict *that* event but couldn't predict the fall of their own civilization--an event much closer to home and far more relevant for them?

I understand the hesitancy to commit to a position but if you *actually* believe something is going to happen in 2012, what? Will the Earth be struck by an asteroid? Where? (To give you a sense of context--and the standard I'm thinking of--you'll recall yesterday that I mentioned the Apohpis meteor potentially hitting the Earth in 2035. Now, I cannot give you the precise grid coordinate but astronomers do know that IF Apophis passes through the 'keyhole' in 2029, it will hit the Earth in 2035 somewhere in the Pacific between California and Hawaii. That means that a quarter century BEFORE the hypothetical event, a prediction has been made that is actually verifiable.) I've already explained that there's nothing special about passing through the galactic plane (and we're not going to do that anytime soon at any rate) and that the SMBH at the center of the galaxy doesn't have any real effect on us. We can also rule out the Earth flipping upside down (again for reasons that, hopefully, I've explained adequately enough for our purposes here). So what is it that is supposed to happen?

While I don't believe this prophecy to be at all true, I'm asking questions of those who do believe it is true taking your belief very seriously. I presume that you are saying what you believe and believe what you are saying. I'm just curious as to how those who believe this process this information.

Thanks.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Since black holes were invoked in this thread, I thought it might be interesting to delve into these a tiny bit more because these objects are SO cool!

So to understand black holes one must understand that in the interior of all stars there is a battle raging. The mass of the star, which is what creates gravity, wants to cause the star to collapse on itself (remember that gravity is ALWAYS attractive) but the fusion process (caused by that same gravitation) generates heat that prevents the star from collapsing. For 'main sequence' stars of .4 to 1.4 solar masses (using our sun as the baseline) near the end of their lifetime, as the fuel is exhausted, heat briefly triumphs over gravity and the star expands to a red giant. This will be the end-game cycle for the Sun. It will eventually expand out to 1 AU (Earth's orbit), completely obliterating our planet and then collapse into a cooler, white dwarf star about the size of the Earth.

Larger stars > 1.4 solar masses but < 4 solar masses will expand out to red supergiants and then collapse into neutron stars.

Truly massive stars > 4 solar masses go through one of the most interesting and violent transitions in the Universe. In these stars gravity fully triumphs over heat and the core of the star becomes iron. This increases the mass of the star while not generating more heat. At some point the star collapses in a supernovae and then collapses further into itself creating a black hole. When this happens very high energy particles may be ejected in the x-ray part of the spectrum which is one way we can detect black holes.

So why are black holes 'black'? They are black because the gravitational force is so extreme that not even light can escape it. If the black hole is part of a binary system it will tend to capture its partner and begin sucking stellar mass from it, feeding itself. This is another way we can detect black holes. As mass approaches the event horizon (boundary) of a black hole, it will be accelerated to a substantial fraction of the speed of light (C) which can cause atoms to be ripped apart with photons being ejected in the x-ray band.

We cannot detect black holes directly (because no signal can escape or be reflected from it) but we can infer them by the presence of mass being accelerated to a substantial fraction of C because of the gravitational tidal forces.

One more interesting bit about black holes. As you pass the event horizon the tidal forces grow more extreme. Imagine that you pass through a black hole feet first. Since your feet will be closer to the center of mass than your head, your feet will start to accelerate faster than your head causing your body to be stretched out. As you fall deeper, your molecules will be strung out in a process that Neil Degrasse-Tyson calls "spaghettification" and then your very atoms will be ripped apart. What's really interesting about this is that, counter-intuitively, if you were to fall into a supermassive black hole this *wouldn't* happen because the tidal forces are less intense but if you were to fall into a 'normal' black hole (a stellar-mass black hole) then you would undergo that process. So, ironically, you might actually *survive* falling into a supermassive black hole long enough to appreciate what was beyond the event horizon although you would still NEVER be able to get a signal out so you wouldn't be able to report what you found.

Cheers
Aj

[NJFemmie]

What it means astrologically is ....

- A quincunx (150 degree aspect) between Jupiter and Pluto.
- A quincunx between Jupiter and Saturn.
- A central opposition (180 degree aspect) made between Jupiter and the Mercury/Venus conjunction.

The two quincunxes are almost exact, and have an orb of less than 1/2 of a degree. The quincunx between Jupiter and Pluto is exact at December 21 2012.

Pluto (The Energy of Evolution) is the planet of radical transformation, death and rebirth. (Pluto causes the disintegration of psychological blocks obstructing our evolutionary growth.)

Saturn (the Great Cosmic Teacher) is the planet of the earthly realm and of learning experiences, especially those of a more painful nature.

Jupiter (Ruler of all things philosophical) is also the planet of expansion (expanding the mind (higher mind) to superconscious realms and philosophy/expanding our physical horizons through long journeys). This is the focus of this alignment, the planet which receives the strong energy of the other planets involved. It also expands the energy of the other planets involved (especially Saturn and Pluto). This indicates transformational processes which can be emotionally painful.

Jupiter has a central place in this because it is the focal point of the energy. This indicates changes in our religious systems, beliefs, philosophical systems. These fall under Jupiter.

Also notable:

Jupiter squares (90 degree aspect) Neptune.
Neptune (The Ruler of all things "subtle") squares Venus.
Venus is in opposition to Jupiter (making this the central opposition).

Therefore Neptune, the planet of spirituality, ascension, confusion and floods is a crucial planet within this alignment. It rules all the processes of enlightenment.

What is interesting is that on that date, there will be an unusual astrological alignment combined with a rare galactic event.

Do I still think the world is coming to an end? No. But I think there are going to be some worldwide changes - and as previously mentioned - both individual and generational. Alignments like these have ushered in brand new eras, collectively changing the way humanity thinks, feels and interacts with one another.

I know I am making popcorn that day.

[NJFemmie]

So my question is this: what do you think that these prophecies actually predict? One or two people have said that they think it will be a time of emotional transition. If you believe that my question for you is this: why on Earth would the Mayans make THAT prophecy?

Well, I can speak for no one but myself, but ...

The Mayans did not make that prophecy - the astrological alignment on that date does. I know a lot of people like to look at astrology as a new age concept - but astrology is a science. The art of astrology is based in it's interpretation. It's a science with a metaphysical twist. One thing NO ONE can deny, is that the planets move in a constant around the universe. The energies associated with each planet has their own unique effect depending on how they position to each other - and are intensified during astrological alignments.

Edited to add: It is speculated that the Mayans stopped their calendar on that date because they did believe that it begins another cycle of evolution. Not necessarily of the "end of the world kind", but a more spiritual evolution, if you will.

And ... there is also speculation that they "just stopped" and didn't feel a need to go further.

Let me try to put my confusion in context. Let's say you believe in fortune telling so you go to a fortune teller. She says to you, "in ten years you will be experiencing deep and profound thoughts". You pay whatever it costs for a fortune teller, walk out of her little storefront, step off the curb and are immediately struck by a bus, killing you instantly. Now, if this woman were a fortune teller and could really see the future, don't you think that the information that you were going to be struck by a bus would be a tad bit *more* important than that you were going to be experiencing deep thoughts a decade from now? (Which, of course, you aren't going to be around to be doing now.) The reason I ask is that if, in fact, the 2012 prophecy refers to some great emotional change that will take place planet-wide isn't that just a little prosaic? What's more, why is it that they could predict *that* event but couldn't predict the fall of their own civilization--an event much closer to home and far more relevant for them?

First of all, fortune telling IS NOT a science. It doesn't fall into the category of astrology. Astrological influences and psychic ability are certainly not one and the same.

For lack of a better definition:

An astrological age is a time period in astrology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology) which is believed by some to parallel major changes in the Earth's inhabitants' development, particularly relating to culture, society and politics. There are twelve astrological ages corresponding to the twelve zodiacal signs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac) in astrology. At the completion of one cycle of twelve astrological ages, the cycle repeats itself. Astrological ages occur because of a phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_of_the_equinoxes). One complete period of this precession is called a Great Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Year) or Platonic Yearof about 25,860 years.

Honestly, I am not sure what will happen in 2012. To be truthful, I didn't go into "study mode" over this. But, based on the alignment itself, it does indicate (to an astrologer), that there are changes coming. (In fact, the wheels for those changes have already been placed in motion.

[dreadgeek]

Jupiter (Ruler of all things philosophical) is also the planet of expansion (expanding the mind (higher mind) to superconscious realms and philosophy/expanding our physical horizons through long journeys). This is the focus of this alignment, the planet which receives the strong energy of the other planets involved. It also expands the energy of the other planets involved (especially Saturn and Pluto). This indicates transformational processes which can be emotionally painful.

Please pardon my ignorance. How would we know this happened? What would a year where there wasn't a transformational process look like as opposed to the kind of event you're talking about? (Again, please pardon my ignorance but I'm presuming that you are talking about observable events so I'm curious as to what we should expect to observe.)




Do I still think the world is coming to an end? No. But I think there are going to be some worldwide changes - and as previously mentioned - both individual and generational. Alignments like these have ushered in brand new eras, collectively changing the way humanity thinks, feels and interacts with one another.

I know I am making popcorn that day.

Can you give me an example of this? Admittedly, astrology is FAR outside of my competency and I have some questions (which I'll spare you) about the mechanics of astrology (in other words how it's supposed to work). I mean, was the start of the European Enlightenment one of these periods? Were the planets aligned the same way when Rousseau, Burke, Smith, Condorcet, Paine and Hume were writing?

Cheers
Aj

[NJFemmie]

Please pardon my ignorance. How would we know this happened? What would a year where there wasn't a transformational process look like as opposed to the kind of event you're talking about? (Again, please pardon my ignorance but I'm presuming that you are talking about observable events so I'm curious as to what we should expect to observe.)

We wouldn't know this happened, because it hasn't yet. This in itself is a rare alignment and it is SPECULATED, based on the interpretations of the planets and their positions, that this may take place. Have others taken place? Yes, but the astrological alignments for other eras/changes are not exactly the same.

In astrology, the distant planets Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto have more of a generational effect. In other words, humanity as a whole. The inner planets have more of an individualized effect (like.. what makes a taurus a taurus, etc..)

Alignments are complex. As an example, in the early 1930's - a T-Square alignment in certain planets/signs (I think it was Saturn, Uranus and Pluto) was symbolic of an economic breakdown in Western economies (the Depression), which in fact, affected all countries. Also during this T-square, the Nazi regime flourished, and well, we all know what impact that made on societies all across the world.

The 1960's was in itself an era ushered in by Saturn opposing Uranus and Pluto.

Each "era" has their own unique signature of planetary alignments and influences that have made them what they were/are. So, it's impossible to say what will EXACTLY happen - only speculate based on gathered information that has been accumulated over the centuries.

Can you give me an example of this? Admittedly, astrology is FAR outside of my competency and I have some questions (which I'll spare you) about the mechanics of astrology (in other words how it's supposed to work). I mean, was the start of the European Enlightenment one of these periods? Were the planets aligned the same way when Rousseau, Burke, Smith, Condorcet, Paine and Hume were writing?

Astrology may be outside your realm as much as quantum physics would be outside of mine. :) Honestly? I have NO idea (unless I sit and extensively research this) what alignments were in place during this particular time period and what plausible astrological effects to provide.

[dreadgeek]

Please pardon my ignorance. How would we know this happened? What would a year where there wasn't a transformational process look like as opposed to the kind of event you're talking about? (Again, please pardon my ignorance but I'm presuming that you are talking about observable events so I'm curious as to what we should expect to observe.)

We wouldn't know this happened, because it hasn't yet. This in itself is a rare alignment and it is SPECULATED, based on the interpretations of the planets and their positions, that this may take place. Have others taken place? Yes, but the astrological alignments for other eras/changes are not exactly the same.

In astrology, the distant planets Uranus, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto have more of a generational effect. In other words, humanity as a whole. The inner planets have more of an individualized effect (like.. what makes a taurus a taurus, etc..)

Alignments are complex. As an example, in the early 1930's - a T-Square alignment in certain planets/signs (I think it was Saturn, Uranus and Pluto) was symbolic of an economic breakdown in Western economies (the Depression), which in fact, affected all countries. Also during this T-square, the Nazi regime flourished, and well, we all know what impact that made on societies all across the world.

The 1960's was in itself an era ushered in by Saturn opposing Uranus and Pluto.

Each "era" has their own unique signature of planetary alignments and influences that have made them what they were/are. So, it's impossible to say what will EXACTLY happen - only speculate based on gathered information that has been accumulated over the centuries.

Can you give me an example of this? Admittedly, astrology is FAR outside of my competency and I have some questions (which I'll spare you) about the mechanics of astrology (in other words how it's supposed to work). I mean, was the start of the European Enlightenment one of these periods? Were the planets aligned the same way when Rousseau, Burke, Smith, Condorcet, Paine and Hume were writing?

Astrology may be outside your realm as much as quantum physics would be outside of mine. :) Honestly? I have NO idea (unless I sit and extensively research this) what alignments were in place during this particular time period and what plausible astrological effects to provide.




Well I appreciate your answering my questions. Thank you.

Cheers
Aj

[Cyclopea]

When people believe in totally unscientific things like astrology or tea leaves or evolution-denial how do they rationalize their belief? What do people get out of believing such things?

Who decides what attributes to give to planetary bodies? Who decided on the attributes of the planet Pluto after it was discovered in the 1930s? And what about Ceris, which we now know is a larger planet than Pluto? It all seems so random, like believing Noah kept dinosaurs on the ark.

I don't say this to insult anyone- I am genuinely curious how one makes that decision to believe. Is it just something in your "gut" that you just feel you have to go with, or how does that work?

[SuperFemme]

I'd like to take this moment to join together in an armageddon song?

YouTube- Aerosmith - I Don't Wanna Miss a Thing

[NJFemmie]

We believe what feels right within. I think the original question was "what does it mean to you" - and those answers are not always going to be comprised of answers based on scientific fact, everyone's rationalization is going to be what feels right to them.

What do people get out of believing such things?

For me, it's illogical to think that everything is purely scientific and "logical". Because in reality, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS - they only know what they do know - and if the universe is infinite, so are the possibilities.

[SuperFemme]

I believe I thought NJ's sig line referred to the Yoruban Goddess until about one minute ago.

Ohhh. OCEAN.

I believe in lots of stuff because I choose to. Astrology being one of them.

End of the world predictions? Not so much.
I like surprises.

[dreadgeek]

We believe what feels right within. I think the original question was "what does it mean to you" - and those answers are not always going to be comprised of answers based on scientific fact, everyone's rationalization is going to be what feels right to them.

What do people get out of believing such things?

For me, it's illogical to think that everything is purely scientific and "logical". Because in reality, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS - they only know what they do know - and if the universe is infinite, so are the possibilities.



I read the question a bit differently. For instance, let's take, as a point of contrast, belief in a divine being (which I also see no reason to believe in). This can be a comforting belief. But what does one gain from believing, for instance, that a now extinct civilization (not the people but the civilization) predicted some ill-defined cataclysm? It's certainly not comforting NOR is there anything one can do about it. As another point of contrast, consider (if you're old enough) the response to fears of a nuclear war that dominated the (industrialized) world from 1948 until the early 1990's. Here there WAS something that could be done about it. Fear that Goldwater might be crazy enough to attempt to fight a nuclear war kept him from the Presidency and, quite possibly, prevented us from getting into one. Or consider the somewhat more remote possibility of a planet-killer asteroid out there. If we can spot it we MIGHT be able to divert it (it's essentially a physics/engineering problem). But if the threat is ill-defined (something will happen, who knows what) then what is the point? As I said yesterday it sells books and movie tickets but other than making Hollywood moguls and New Age gurus a little heavier in the wallet, what actual *good* does it do?

As far as everything not being scientific and logical, this depends upon what you mean. To give another illustration, I'll take something I mentioned in the paper I linked to yesterday. You are mostly empty space. Everything is. There is a non-zero probability that you could walk through a wall. However, because both you and the wall are macro-objects if you started *today* to try to walk through a wall and you attempted once every second to do so, you would have to wait until the universe were around a hundred billion years old before you had done enough attempts that it would have some probability of actually happening. We can, therefore, treat walls as solid objects that it is impossible to pass through.

What's more, there are things that are *conceivable* but so highly improbable that we save a great deal of time by treating them as impossible. For instance, there is no law of physics that prevents air from *spontaneously* re-inflating your tire when it goes flat. The process that deflates your tire is, in fact, time-reversible meaning that it is process-reversible. However, the statistical nature of the movement of molecules means that it is very *unlikely* to ever actually occur. (This, by the way, is one way of understanding the Second Law of Thermodynamics: e.g. entropy)

Lastly, I would have to say that the possibilities are not actually infinite nor is there any reason to take our *profound* ignorance about nature to mean that anything goes. It is simply true that, to the best of our knowledge, it is *impossible* to accelerate an object with mass to the speed of light through space-time. We can safely treat any claims that someone has built a device that can achieve acceleration to the speed of light as a false claim. The same applies for perpetual motion machines (any machine where it generates its own energy without any loss: e.g. 100% of the energy used by the machine can be used for work). To say that 'no one knows because the universe is infinite' is to treat the laws of physics as nothing more than just some localized, arbitrary caprices when, in fact, they are not.

I want to tack on another question: what is WRONG with the universe having limits on us? Why is it that people balk at that? Why does the universe 'owe' us perpetual motion machines, psychic powers, or a divine being that cares for us (but, interestingly, doesn't condemn us to hell). Why is it illogical for nature to be governed by some set of rules that are discoverable by any species clever enough to hit upon the idea of the scientific method?

It seems to me that this claim is actually somewhat testable. For instance, if there are psychic powers (whatever that might mean) then we should expect that these powers would exhibit SOME kind of behavior. For instance, Einstein came up with a clever suggestion about how to determine if psychic powers existed. If they are a field then they should fall off according to the inverse square law (just like every other field does) if they don't, in other words if distance from the source has no effect on strength, then they don't exist because *every other single field we have discovered* obeys that law. Now, alternatively, if psychic powers aren't subject to the inverse square law of fields then those who argue in favor of them have the burden of proof placed on *them* to explain the nature of these powers and why they are the exception.

This is just a matter of consistent thinking and an attempt to keep the cognitive dissonance to the absolute minimum possible.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

I am not a scientist (obviously) but have been giving the subject of why people believe in religion, astrology and so forth much thought.

I wonder, in some cases, like for example astrology, psychic ability and so forth, if it is possible that somehow there are perfectly rational explanations? (science we don't know yet).

Could the planets have a pull on us like the moon might?

So many scientific discoveries have happened in our lifetimes alone that I have to think there are many completely rational explanations for things we might consider "magical thinking".

[dreadgeek]

I am not a scientist (obviously) but have been giving the subject of why people believe in religion, astrology and so forth much thought.

I wonder, in some cases, like for example astrology, psychic ability and so forth, if it is possible that somehow there are perfectly rational explanations? (science we don't know yet).

Could the planets have a pull on us like the moon might?



If they did, then this pull would be of a completely DIFFERENT kind of field (meaning one we have never detected before). The only field from the other planets that have ANY effect on us here on Earth is the electromagnetic field (light). The only other field that the planets have that would effect us here would be the gravitational field but because of how fields fall off with distance we are not significantly affected by the gravitational fields of EITHER of our two nearest planetary neighbors (Venus and Mars) and outside of the effect of Jupiter hoovering up objects as they traverse into the inner solar system, Jupiter has no effect on us. That means that this 'astrological field' (if you will) either has to be energy in some form that we cannot detect (but it's NOT dark energy that we can be certain of) or it does not obey the inverse square law. It's not electromagnetism (because we could detect it if it were, there's no part of the EMF spectrum that we cannot detect) and it can't be gravity (for the reason cited above).

This puts the burden of justification on the proponents of astrology to explain what kind of energy it is, to propose tests we could use to determine if this energy exists and whether or not it obeys the inverse square law (and if it doesn't why and how it breaks what appears to be a *fundamental* rule).

Here's the thing that I think is lost in a lot of science education taken at the high school and non-science major undergrad level: a universe with, say, psi powers looks very different than one without. If one is going to propose these powers, okay, but then one should be prepared for curious sorts to ask probing and difficult questions.

Because I'm more comfortable talking about how this works with various scientific issues (because there's no danger I'm going to step on someone's cherished beliefs and thus insult them) I'll use an example of the kind of questioning and curiosity I'm talking about. Let's take string theory.

String theory is a mathematically *beautiful* structure that seeks to explain, amongst other things, why the four forces have the strengths they do and what those four forces would look like if unified. I will admit that from the minute I became aware of string theory I was captivated by it. I would really LIKE for the universe to work this way. However, there are some non-trivial problems with the theory and after five years of reading everything I could find that was in support of string theory I heard on NPR's Talk of the Nation Science Friday an interview with someone who had been a prominent string theorist who wrote a book called "The Trouble with Physics" which argued that string theory was almost certainly wrong. I went out and bought that book and another book by a mathematician with an interest in the subject called "Not Even Wrong". I waded through both (they're very dense and the subject matter is extremely arcane) but after reading both of those and some various journal articles on the subject, came to the conclusion that string theory was unlikely to be true. While I still hold out SOME hope it might be rescued from its problems, I am dubious this can or will happen which means that no matter how much I might *want* the universe to work this way, it is vanishingly improbable that it *does* work that way.

It required me to ask some very deep and difficult questions and whenever there was resistance to question MY motivations for that resistance. However, the rules are the rules and the two biggest problems string theory has are not trivial. There are some 5 *million* possible permutations of string theory any of which might be true with no way to whittle that down to a manageable number. This means that string theory is not falsifiable as a practical matter and it may not be falsifiable even in principle. If it's only the former, then it's a matter of time but if it's the latter then no matter how beautiful string theory is, it isn't science. The second problem is allied to the first. String theory requires 9 MORE dimensions than our familiar 3+1 (time is its own dimension) which are curled up so small that they are not detectable. This goes back to the falsifiability issue.

The reason I bring this up is to illustrate how I think about these things and what scientific thinking looks like. I also bring it up to show that when I ask these questions about, say, astrology I am applying the SAME standard to that idea that I apply to ideas I actually DO believe might have something to them. I do so because it's only *fair* to do so. It would be unfair for me to have one standard for astrology and another for string theory and it would be terribly inconsistent to boot. To the best of my ability I want to be consistent and fair-minded and that means treating all kinds of claims about the universe as being on an equal footing and not privileging some kinds of claims above others just because some are labeled 'spiritual' and some scientific.

Cheers
Aj

[NJFemmie]

My only suggestion is to investigate astrology. I could go on and on about it, but honestly? I really have no desire to, lol. It wouldn't be fair to turn this thread into science vs. metaphysics - since my original intent was to simply answer a question about what I thought about 2012.

[dreadgeek]

My only suggestion is to investigate astrology. I could go on and on about it, but honestly? I really have no desire to, lol. It wouldn't be fair to turn this thread into science vs. metaphysics - since my original intent was to simply answer a question about what I thought about 2012.

Well, so that the thread doesn't die I'll bow out of it. Obviously, it's more entertaining to talk about, on the one hand, vague, non-specific events than it is to actually delve into the grounding issues of what might happen and why. I thought that good information about the science would crowd out bad information but that only works if people want good information which, clearly, they don't.

So enjoy the 23 month "the Mayans said the world will end!" party. On 22 Dec 2012, I'll be giggling my butt off and wondering how many people will have the courage to admit that 2012 was just another year.

Cheers
Aj

[NJFemmie]

Well, so that the thread doesn't die I'll bow out of it. Obviously, it's more entertaining to talk about, on the one hand, vague, non-specific events than it is to actually delve into the grounding issues of what might happen and why. I thought that good information about the science would crowd out bad information but that only works if people want good information which, clearly, they don't.

So enjoy the 23 month "the Mayans said the world will end!" party. On 22 Dec 2012, I'll be giggling my butt off and wondering how many people will have the courage to admit that 2012 was just another year.

Cheers
Aj

Everyone isn't going to care about the details. Details can be quite boorish. The web is vast and there's tons of information on it for those who want it though.

[Cyclopea]

Everyone isn't going to care about the details. Details can be quite boorish. The web is vast and there's tons of information on it for those who want it though.

Details can be quite unmannered, rude and insensitive?

Maybe you mean boring?

As in: Detailed discussion on a thread topic can be boring? (to you)

:deepthoughts:

It's hard to imagine how the details of something that one believes controls or effects all aspects of life in a mystical sense would be boring to that person, especially in a thread about how those beliefs will spur an impending global transformation...

[NJFemmie]

Details can be quite unmannered, rude and insensitive?

Maybe you mean boring?

As in: Detailed discussion on a thread topic can be boring? (to you)

:deepthoughts:

I choose to not sit here and write about astrology and the science behind it and bore myself (and others) to death. Yes, I meant boring.

And yes, I am bored now.

[Legendryder]

Well, if my roommate had any money, the idiot would be building a fall-out bunker, buying guns, and stocking up on food. It is funny. He gets his information off the internet, and when I tell him about a site that debunks most of his stupid crap, he says "You can't trust what you read on the internet!" WTF???

Hell, to me 2012 is the year I will be getting my BS finished. Go me.

[Cyclopea]

Can anyone tell me who ascribed astrological characteristics to the planet Pluto after it was discovered in 1930?

I've looked on the internet and can not locate that info.

[NJFemmie]

Modern planets

Since the invention of the telescope, Western astrology has incorporated Uranus, Neptune, Ceres, Pluto and other bodies into its methodology. Indian and Chinese astrologies have tended to retain the ancient seven-planet system. Meanings have had to be assigned to them by modern astrologers, usually according to the major events which occurred in the world at the time of their discovery. As these astrologers are usually Western, the social and historical events they describe have an inevitable Western emphasis. Astrologers consider the 'extra-Saturnian' planets to be 'impersonal' or generational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generational_planet) planets, meaning their effects are felt more across whole generations of society. Their effects in individuals depend upon how strongly they feature in that individual's birth-chart. There is also a great discussion going about what Ceres should rule in astrology. Some western astrologers hope that within a few years, astrological rulerships will be changed in order to include Ceres. The following are their characteristics as accepted by most astrologers.

To most modern Western astrologers, Pluto is the ruling planet of Scorpio. In Roman mythology Pluto is the god of the underworld and of wealth, hence the coin-and-chalice glyph. Pluto and its moon Charon form a unique pairing in the solar system because Charon is so massive relative to Pluto. This means that they revolve in a 'dumbbell' formation around a common point in space lying between them, permanently locked in a 'power struggle' for dominance.[13] This is symbolic of the role Pluto has come to represent astrologically. Pluto takes 248 years to orbit the sun, spending on average approximately 21 years (20.6) in each sign of the zodiac. However, Pluto's orbit is so eccentric that this can vary dramatically, from 25 years in Cancer (1913 - 1938) to a mere 12 years in Scorpio (1983 - 1995), when its orbit was actually closer to the sun than Neptune's.

Astrologically Pluto is called "the great renewer", and is considered to represent the part of a person that destroys in order to renew, through bringing buried, but intense, needs and drives to the surface and expressing them, even at the expense of the existing order. A commonly used keyword for Pluto is "transformation". It is associated with power and personal mastery and the need to co-operate and share with another, if each is not to be destroyed. Pluto governs big business and wealth, mining, surgery and detective work, and any enterprise which involves digging under the surface to bring the truth to light. Pluto is also associated with the day Tuesday along with Mars.

Pluto is also associated with extreme power and corruption; the discovery of Pluto in 1930 coincided with the rise of fascism and Stalinism in Europe, leading to the Second World War. It also coincided with the Great Depression and the major proliferation of organized crime in the United States.

Its entry into Cancer in 1913, the sign in which it was later discovered, coincided with the First World War. It is also associated with nuclear armament, which had its genesis in the research of the 1930s and 40s. Later on, it gave rise to the polarized nuclear stand off of the Cold War, with the mass consumer societies of the United States and other democracies facing the totalitarian state of the USSR. The discovery of Pluto also occurred just after the birth of modern psycho-analysis, when Freud and Jung began to explore the depths of the unconscious. In real life events and culture, Pluto has been a major astrological aspect.

In art, movements like Cubism and Surrealism began to deconstruct the 'normal' view of the world and reassemble it in new and sometimes disturbing ways. In medicine Pluto seems to be associated with regenerative forces in the body involving cell formation and the reproductive system. Pluto is considered by modern astrologers to be co-ruler of the 8th house with Mars. Many traditional astrologers do not use Pluto as a ruling planet, but do use the planet for interpretation and predictive work, obliquely making reference to projections of influences from higher to lower dimensional spaces.

[Cyclopea]

Can anyone tell me who ascribed astrological characteristics to the planet Pluto after it was discovered in 1930?

I've looked on the internet and can not locate that info.

OK I found it, it was Jeff Green who in 1985 dreamt of what astrologers now believe about Pluto, as explained to him in the dream by Yogananda.

From Eric Francis:

"He started reading charts, came to Seattle, and put up his "Free Charts" sign, which was popular. He did a lot of readings on the radio. One night he had a dream in Sanskrit, in which Yogananda gave him some really intense info about Pluto. He started writing. He lit candles on his desk, illuminating the first page, and called his then-girlfriend, so she could come and see the first page; that is how it all began. It was an extremely challenging task to complete the book, but he did it. Yogananda stuck around. A lot happened. It's all history. It is fair to say that no book of the last half century has had as much impact as Jeff's. (Pluto: The Evolutionary Journey of the Soul)"

So there it is.

[dreadgeek]

Well, if my roommate had any money, the idiot would be building a fall-out bunker, buying guns, and stocking up on food. It is funny. He gets his information off the internet, and when I tell him about a site that debunks most of his stupid crap, he says "You can't trust what you read on the internet!" WTF???

Hell, to me 2012 is the year I will be getting my BS finished. Go me.

Well, congrats on your BS (assuming that the Mayans are right, you'll have about six months to enjoy it LOL).

My wife and I sometimes talk about starting some kind of New Age consulting business. You see, she's got the whole "Celtic Earth-Mother" thing going on (red hair, curvy, I call her my own personal Flaming June (http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/Eric_B/flaming_june.jpg)) and I've got the whole dreadlocked black woman thing down and I can fake a passable Caribbean accent. With that schtick we could make money beyond our dreams of avarice!

I have a couple of people in my life who do the same thing as your roommate. On the one hand they'll say "I saw this on the Internet...." and then riff on some completely ludicrous idea and then, when they are pointed to a site where their sacred cow is well and truly debunked they'll respond "well, you can't believe everything you see on the Internet!" It boggles the mind.

Cheers
Aj

[NJFemmie]

OK I found it, it was Jeff Green who in 1985 dreamt of what astrologers now believe about Pluto, as explained to him in the dream by Yogananda.

From Eric Francis:

"He started reading charts, came to Seattle, and put up his "Free Charts" sign, which was popular. He did a lot of readings on the radio. One night he had a dream in Sanskrit, in which Yogananda gave him some really intense info about Pluto. He started writing. He lit candles on his desk, illuminating the first page, and called his then-girlfriend, so she could come and see the first page; that is how it all began. It was an extremely challenging task to complete the book, but he did it. Yogananda stuck around. A lot happened. It's all history. It is fair to say that no book of the last half century has had as much impact as Jeff's. (Pluto: The Evolutionary Journey of the Soul)"

So there it is.

So there it's not.

It's no surprise how you are attempting to handle the topic.

Peace out.

[Cyclopea]

Well, if my roommate had any money, the idiot would be building a fall-out bunker, buying guns, and stocking up on food. It is funny. He gets his information off the internet, and when I tell him about a site that debunks most of his stupid crap, he says "You can't trust what you read on the internet!" WTF???

Hell, to me 2012 is the year I will be getting my BS finished. Go me.

Well, congrats on your BS (assuming that the Mayans are right, you'll have about six months to enjoy it LOL).

My wife and I sometimes talk about starting some kind of New Age consulting business. You see, she's got the whole "Celtic Earth-Mother" thing going on (red hair, curvy, I call her my own personal Flaming June (http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/Eric_B/flaming_june.jpg)) and I've got the whole dreadlocked black woman thing down and I can fake a passable Caribbean accent. With that schtick we could make money beyond our dreams of avarice!

I have a couple of people in my life who do the same thing as your roommate. On the one hand they'll say "I saw this on the Internet...." and then riff on some completely ludicrous idea and then, when they are pointed to a site where their sacred cow is well and truly debunked they'll respond "well, you can't believe everything you see on the Internet!" It boggles the mind.

Cheers
Aj

It reminds me of all the fundamentalist ("bible believin') Christians I've talked to who have never even read the book that they believe with all their heart has come straight from the mouth of God.
I wonder if there is an inverse relationship between true believers and their own need for information about the things they believe. I'd love to see it studied...

[Jet]

I'll be 55, that's all.

[dreadgeek]

I'll be 55, that's all.

For a small feee, I can give you an elixir that will make you feel and look 35.

Cheers
Aj

[Jet]

we love those elixirs.

[friskyfemme]

dreadgeek

I, personally, do not find science boring...but what I have issue with is a scientists trying to make theory fact by agreement.

excerpt from dreadgeek 'This puts the burden of justification on the proponents of astrology to explain what kind of energy it is, to propose tests we could use to determine if this energy exists and whether or not it obeys the inverse square law (and if it doesn't why and how it breaks what appears to be a *fundamental* rule). '

I have the tenacity to believe that 'if ain't always true-meaning no exceptions-it ain't true'. To me this is 'truth' - that each person holds a portion of the truth emcompassing a merge from levels of understanding at the physical level (science), the mental level (change), the spiritual level (ominiscence). Incorporating all = truth, however dismissing a portion = theory. Each serves a invaluable reasoning for existence.

:freak: :huhlaugh:

[friskyfemme]

My only suggestion is to investigate astrology. I could go on and on about it, but honestly? I really have no desire to, lol. It wouldn't be fair to turn this thread into science vs. metaphysics - since my original intent was to simply answer a question about what I thought about 2012.
Off topic but I tend to wander off alot...LOL
Is this pic with the cat an image of mouse in 'light' form intentional? or am I having a '60s flashback'?

[Toughy]

2012......I will be 60 yrs old (June 24) and that's a number I cannot even understand.......laughin..........

It reminds me of a bumper sticker found all over NM during the Y2K hype:

Y2K is everyday in NM

Meaning: if all the hype had come true, nothing in NM would have changed........laughin....

I must admit I did go out to Point Reyes with a bunch of friends and 'harmonically converged' when we were supposed to do that to save the planet..........it was a great time hanging at the beach and doing a bit of meditation to the sound of the waves and the light of the moon.

It's the Solstice and I will be having a Solstice Celebration just like I do every year. It's a celebration of the return of the light.

[WILDCAT]

Clearly, this is a deep topic for some and then, NOT SO - for others.

I just want to play this song - for something to think about... Well, plus I love music as a "communicator". (But! This is NOT "science"! Just an old video.)

I was actually waiting for our science geek to give me the facts here, and then... once I knew we wouldn't BLOW the fuck up or spin into obscurity out of control... cool. I was "down" with it.

The "religious" part of this equation FREAKS ME THE HELL OUT!

However, I happen to LOVE both Astrololgy AND Astronomy! I can tell you for a FACT, that there is effect for every single "SECOND" of changed allignment" out there. Plus, I've had experiences that would make folk's hair stand up straight on their heads if I shared them... they simply would NOT believe me.

There IS a plane of existence that we do not [fully] understand. I'm NOT into organized religion and actually that thought of Armageddon is NUTS to me. But, I know what I know... for I am an OLD SOUL! Just the way it is. (And I don't need to explain or justify it to ANYONE.)

STILL, hate to see folks fighting here over "our own DEMISE". Kinda of funny, if you really "think about it, yes"?

Enjoy an old video/song and MY sense of "humor"? K?

YouTube- Peter Schilling Major Tom coming home

LOVE THIS STUFF!

Count down, ya'll!!!

WILDCAT

[WILDCAT]

I should explain a bit more...

When you throw a stone into a pond, the ripple effect moves on and on...

Out in space, when anything COLLIDES, we FEEL IT!
__

If you are in the woods and close your eyes... you can FEEL the tree before you reach it - for it has it's own aura.

Here, personally: I can feel a change in energy, and walk downstairs and just happen to see twenty deer in my yard.

Well, some might say... "just a wild coincidence"! But, then.. why do some of us "FEEL IT"?

I can tell you honesty, that I feel when deer are right outside my cabin.
___

Anyway, that is not even my most important concern! (Like, if you believe me or not...) What matters to me, IS... ???

LOVE

[WILDCAT]

My POINT IS...

I will NOT carry a cup of HOT tea that day... I will respect the laws of gravity - just in case.


Peace and love...

(Oh, and by the way... we will all live in a "lighter" way - take that as you may, but it IS the reality. SMILE.)

[dreadgeek]

Out in space, when anything COLLIDES, we FEEL IT!


I'm not sure what you mean by this? Can you explain what it is you're saying here? When comet Schumaker-Levy slammed into Jupiter 14 years ago what did we feel on Earth? We certainly *detected* the collision because, as it happened, someone noticed the comet being torn apart by Jupiter's tidal forces *before* the comet hit the planet. But I can't imagine what we felt here.

Things collide in the solar system all the time and that's just the solar system. I'm genuinely confused so could you help dispel that by explaining what you mean? Thanks.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

dreadgeek

I, personally, do not find science boring...but what I have issue with is a scientists trying to make theory fact by agreement.


Frisky:

All we have in science is theories*. A fact is data. The way I like to explain it is like this: Fact: The Earth orbits the Sun. Theory: The Sun's gravitational mass describes various orbits around its center of mass. Earth occupies the third orbital position and is taking the least energetic path around the sun. Now, it so happens that theory is very much in agreement with observation and that is the mark of good science. It sounds like the issue you have with scientists is that they approach things like, well, scientists.


excerpt from dreadgeek 'This puts the burden of justification on the proponents of astrology to explain what kind of energy it is, to propose tests we could use to determine if this energy exists and whether or not it obeys the inverse square law (and if it doesn't why and how it breaks what appears to be a *fundamental* rule). '

I have the tenacity to believe that 'if ain't always true-meaning no exceptions-it ain't true'. To me this is 'truth' - that each person holds a portion of the truth emcompassing a merge from levels of understanding at the physical level (science), the mental level (change), the spiritual level (ominiscence). Incorporating all = truth, however dismissing a portion = theory. Each serves a invaluable reasoning for existence.



So the spiritual level is all-knowing? Because that's what I take the use of the word omniscience to mean?


*A theory, in science, isn't a guess. A theory, in science, is a well-established model for how some system works in nature. When I use the term theory, I am (almost) always using the scientific use of that term. In fact, when I use the term theory in these venues it's the *only* way I use that term because to do otherwise just creates confusion.

Cheers
Aj

[WILDCAT]

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Can you explain what it is you're saying here? When comet Schumaker-Levy slammed into Jupiter 14 years ago what did we feel on Earth? We certainly *detected* the collision because, as it happened, someone noticed the comet being torn apart by Jupiter's tidal forces *before* the comet hit the planet. But I can't imagine what we felt here.

Things collide in the solar system all the time and that's just the solar system. I'm genuinely confused so could you help dispel that by explaining what you mean? Thanks.

Cheers
Aj

I'll try my best to explain my reality, at this time - which is very open for the most part - but, I do "pick" and choose. However, it is hard to put into the English language or words at times, for it is not hard concrete factual knowledge as a scientist such as yourself would be able to better relate to and then someone such as myself cannot write properly to try and transfer any of my thoughts and feelings over to your way of writing/thinking and what you believe.

I'm considering that anyway, but I will try... in very simplistic terms. (Of course - for me!)

I'm glad that you brought up the comment from that year. Several friends of mine who are "sensitive" (as in picking up, at times, even the very smallest altering of shifts or changes of any kind - like being in a woods, not hearing anything, but feeling a sense of movement, and then seeing an animal that was not there in that spot to start with). Heck, we can call it women's intuition here! (Unless you're a man, then call it something else!! Don't want to exclude.)

BUT, the exact moment of that "impact" back that year, and none of us realized it, until we spoke of it later, all at different or varying increments in [later] time: That I, at that time... who did not take afternoon naps, nor did my friends... all at (let's say) the impact what around 3:30PM or so - and whatever precise moment it was) were like friggin' robbots and got overwhelmingly exhausted and had to go and lie down. All of us had forgotten about the comet coming and whatever collision expectations that day - we didn't think too much of it. Little by little we just all discussed this, one would and then another said they had a similar reaction and went to bed, etc...

Sure, someone could argue it is just a coincidence. Someone could say we subconsiously knew of it at a precise time and thus we created our own reality response to it. I can only tell you from honest experience, that I have never been so instantly pooped out. Whatever I was doing at that time (out in the yard I think), I had to go directly to bed and fell immediately asleep. I later saw the time of collision on the news and still did not fully correlate that with what happened to me. Not until I shared with others further along in time... a pattern emerged. That's all.

I'm not going to argue about it, it just keeps my mind open to things. I'm happy with that. And I've had other experiences, like when folks I knew passed away, I felt it - sometimes they were not even sick and it was very sudden and unexpected... but, some of this is personal so I don't feel like going into details at this point right here and now. And I've just recently felt two losses - so quite honestly I'm not up for it here at this time.
__

Let me ask you AJ, when it's said that a beam of light goes to infinity, do you believe that? I kinda "don't", as the battery from a flashlight, "think?" (small beam example) only has so much power, but some would say the different levels of light never end, so still go to points of where we cannot see anymore or recognize with our naked eye, (or some such effect?). I've heard something about a candle light in a room...(?) Like the immediate flame - sure we see quite clearly, and then an outer one (ring/glow - uh huh), and then... well, really the whole room does have light affect, different levels of it to it's darkest corners.

I'd love your own explanation or opinion on this - as I have mixed feelings (which I'm aware does seem somewhat contradictory with some of my thoughts and opinions, and I said I am "selective"). Smile...

And then if you sit across the room and blow, eventually you will see a slight flicker of that flame. Hence, I do feel every movement impacts things around it. Scientifically, I feel we only know at any given time in history what we were capable of finding out, to the adding to the discoveries - which is fascinating and amazing in it's own right, but... I also believe there are other abilities or things we don't yet understand - some that even we hold as human beings, maybe with our senses, maybe if one believes in the chakras and their function on a certain spiritual plane or even healing levels, whatever... (?)

I do not keep religion and my beliefs with my personal experiences providing some kind of effectual, if not personal proof to me at this time - on the same page - AT ALL. However, I am quite fine with incorporating scientific proof with certain things though, I can easily connect them. Again, religion - NO.

And by the way "fortune teller" is SO out dated and not having to do with mediumship in history at this time. I don't even care for the word psychic for it implies someone has this specific power, but rather I am comfortable with we all have the ability to "receive" from the spiritual plane (or some "source", however one feels/believe or has experienced it, if they have?) from a mulitude of factors - including the opening of the chakras (as one example).

I do love the tradition of the ancient eastern philosophies as well. Which incorporate seasonal changes, have the meridians which are amazingly accurate to their exact points of location, on and on... some believe this, some do not. That's not religion though, yet something not always easily proved scientifically. Some scientists who have studied this affect with accupunture treatment, believe and some do not. (I saw a show recently on the History or a PBS channel regarding this, as well as herbal remedies and such.)

I think the times are changing, more towards a mixed acceptance of the old knowledge with the new forthcoming - whatever that may be.

Heck, at one time folks know that when the Columbus ship got further and further away from shore, and much SMALLER, people then were afaid that he was going to fall off a flat earth.

If a meteor strikes the Atantic ocean, the ripple affect will no doubt come crashing inland. We know this. Why wouldn't that be different on any collision or ripple energy affect no matter where it is? Outside the gravity force, thus not susceptible for us - says who? I have my opinion on it... And again, I may choose to not walk with a full cup of hot tea that day, in case gravity is slightly fucked up or altered for me (?), but that is my only concern, really. And I do care what the scientists know. And I do believe the energy shift could very possibly be a positive one for mankind. (We're due anyway!)
__

But, if the things happened in the bible as they did, it surely would be happening now, when needed. A GOD could/would not be so calculating and manipulative and ugly - when you think of certain disasters and murders and such. Plus, I don't have sticks turning into snakes in my yard here either. One loaf of bread does not last me forever. I have had physical objects move though, when I asked for this in my mind. (I did NOT feel alone at that time here somehow, thus why I asked... quietly.)

But, symbolically I suppose some folks could get some benefit out of some religious words of wisdom. But, the judgment part of christianity (as one example) kills it for me. For example, queers will burn in hell. That is nearly hysterical to me in humor, if it wasn't for how dangerous these minds are.

BUT, I'm talking about movement of things in space (on land, in space), something quite different. Allignments... Things shifting. Things impacting each other for it. Sure I believe we feel that. They surely are real - to me and my way of thinking at this time. Just on this planet alone... things are constantly shifting. As yes, lots of impacts out in space too.

And sure folks have felt something OFF before opening their apartment to find they have been robbed and their place is perhaps torn apart. Maybe we have gone to a family members house at night and walked in and FELT the furniture was not where it usually is... before turning on the lights. Sure I slammed on my breaks three times in a row, seeing this huge BUCK in front of me at night on a back dark road, and it wasn't there... then after thinking I was sleepy crazy or something, and needed to turn the radio down and pay more attention, the deer was there on the next turn. Not "a deer", but the EXACT picture I saw in my mind. ? Go figure... Yes, I left my grandmother's house and saw her with blood pooring down her face out of her nose and thought I was a morbid fucked up shit (post head bump way back), and then my mother called me the next day to say that my grandmother had been taken to the hospital for her nose would not stop bleeding.

And these are just some "baby" stories. I've had some that really defy logic, honestly. So, I am "open" to what I don't know sometimes for certain, yes! Especially, with regards to our own sensiblities and sensitivities.

But, I will never be a "follower". That is what matters to me right now. And I DO loathe organized religion. I think what I want. And folks can follow religion if they want or need - just stay off of my life and lifestyle, which is a problem for me, 'cause their beliefs do not allow for that. Many are so far from unconditional. Hypocrites in fact.

And no, it is not the END OF THE WORLD on that date. Humbug, I say to that!! Thanks for your postings. Can it be a nice aid in the shifting of energies towards something more positive than we have now? Sure. Some say we do create our own realities. Perhaps there will be an outnumber of folks, not feelin' the Amageddon "thang", and that will help in the long run with the fanaticism. It is stressful to me at times, that folks have to come up with a reason like biblically what is said for their their very own existence. I wouldn't mind things becoming a little bit more spiritual than religious, personally.

Freud referred to religion as being neurotic if I'm not mistaken. Just sayin'... like a psychological crutch.

OK. On first cup of tea here still, hope this makes any sense regarding what you asked of me AJ.

Cheers!

Wildcat

[dreadgeek]

BUT, the exact moment of that "impact" back that year, and none of us realized it, until we spoke of it later, all at different or varying increments in [later] time: That I, at that time... who did not take afternoon naps, nor did my friends... all at (let's say) the impact what around 3:30PM or so - and whatever precise moment it was) were like friggin' robbots and got overwhelmingly exhausted and had to go and lie down. All of us had forgotten about the comet coming and whatever collision expectations that day - we didn't think too much of it. Little by little we just all discussed this, one would and then another said they had a similar reaction and went to bed, etc...

I'm curious about this. How long did this exhaustion last? I ask because there wasn't ONE impact, there were twenty-one impacts! Over an extended period of time. The largest one happened about 7:30 in the morning GMT two days after the 'event' began.

[/quote]

Let me ask you AJ, when it's said that a beam of light goes to infinity, do you believe that? I kinda "don't", as the battery from a flashlight, "think?" (small beam example) only has so much power, but some would say the different levels of light never end, so still go to points of where we cannot see anymore or recognize with our naked eye, (or some such effect?). I've heard something about a candle light in a room...(?) Like the immediate flame - sure we see quite clearly, and then an outer one (ring/glow - uh huh), and then... well, really the whole room does have light affect, different levels of it to it's darkest corners. [/quote]

Well, do I believe that it goes on forever? Yes, after a fashion I do. The light from a flashlight is the same 'stuff' as the light from the sun (albeit, in the case of the former, a much more narrow band of the stuff). The light from any source (regardless of what that source is) spreads out according to the inverse square law (our old friend from a couple of days ago) such that as it travels it becomes more diffuse and as it gets more diffuse, it becomes more and more dim. To give you a sense of what is happening, think of a laser--the most focused and coherent stream of photons (light) that we know how to create. A laser pointed at the Moon starts out as a tightly focused beam maybe one or two human hairs think (40 microns or so), by the time it reaches the moon it is a beam a *mile* wide!

So does the light keep going forever? Yes, it does since photons (particles of light) have no mass they just keep moving at the speed of light. However, because of the inverse square law, they become very, very dim to the point of not being visible but the photons are still traveling. Some alien intelligence, looking back at the Earth wouldn't really notice our visible light because it would be washed out by the brightness of the Sun. In fact, most of our light transmissions would be washed out by the sun with the exception of microwave and radio transmissions. These would be *very* faint but there would be a lot more of them than one would expect from a star like ours which would be a tip-off to any aliens doing a SETI-like search.



I do love the tradition of the ancient eastern philosophies as well. Which incorporate seasonal changes, have the meridians which is amazingly accurate, on and on... some believe this, some do not. That's not religion though, yet something not always easily proved scientifically. Some scientists who have studied this affect with accupunture treatment, believe and some do not. (I saw a show recently on the History or a PBS channel regarding this, as well as herbal remedies and such.)

I know the show you're talking about. NOVA has done some pretty decent work on CAM therapies but there's only so much you can communicate in one hour. My reading on CAM therapies is that when subjected to the kind of testing we put every OTHER medical intervention through (or did before the Republicans decided that the FDA and the NIH were boondoggles and gutted them) there's no healing ability beyond what we would expect from the placebo effect.



If a meteor strikes the Atantic ocean, the ripple affect with no doubt come crashing inland. Why wouldn't that be different on any collision or ripple energy affect no matter where it is? Outside the gravity force, thus not suseptible for us - says who?

The difference here is that the meteor crashing into the Earth is actually obeying some rather simple physics. As it moves through the air, it is displacing air (thus the shockwave in front of it and the sonic boom behind) and being heated by friction (thus the glow). When it hits, all of that energy gets transferred to the Earth and using a very simple equation (Force=mass*acceleration) we can make predictions about what kinds of things we should see. If it hits the water, it will displace the water (thus a tsunami) and then when it finally strikes solid ground it will displace more earth (thus a second tsunami) causing it to eject into the stratosphere. The heat will be transferred to the ejecta and a crater will form.

The thing is, we've detected all four forces. Now, to give you an idea of just how sensitive our instruments are we can detect the strong and weak nuclear forces. These are of such short range that they ONLY exist inside atoms! You will never ever feel either the nuclear force or the weak force. Even though this is true, the gravitational force is weaker than either of those. The only reason why gravity seems so strong is that there's so damn much mass in the Earth to create it. So if there's some other force out there then it is MUCH weaker than the gravitational force and would need to be shorter range than either the strong or weak nuclear forces in order to explain why we haven't detected it so far. Might there be one? Sure, it's *possible* but that doesn't make it likely.



BUT, I'm talking about movement of things in space (on land, in space), something quite different.

Actually, these are not different *at all*. In fact, if we were in a perfectly sealed spaceship and moving at a constant velocity you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between being on the spaceship and being at rest on the launchpad! They would feel *exactly* the same, provided we didn't accelerate. There's nothing particularly special about being on land or in space when talking about movement. Acceleration and gravity are interchangeable for one another.

One thing I find really interesting about these discussions is just how much other people trust their brains/minds and how little I trust mine. I presume that my brain is error-ridden, tends to see patterns where none exists, and subject to various optical-illusions and errors in thinking. I sometimes *wish* that I trusted my brain enough to presume that if I think that, for instance, my grandmother contacted me psychically the night she died that means that she *did* contact me. However, I don't trust my brain that much which might seem odd but it isn't. My habit of thinking is to try to avoid what I *want* to be true and to always question 'why do I think this is the way things work'.

Cheers
Aj

[Toughy]

I know the show you're talking about. NOVA has done some pretty decent work on CAM therapies but there's only so much you can communicate in one hour. My reading on CAM therapies is that when subjected to the kind of testing we put every OTHER medical intervention through (or did before the Republicans decided that the FDA and the NIH were boondoggles and gutted them) there's no healing ability beyond what we would expect from the placebo effect.


derail here.................

Actually acupuncture does work in certain cases and when used the way it is practiced in China. It is a 3000+ year old system of medicine.

When Nixon went to China he took a bunch of western docs with him. They were STUNNED to find the Chinese preforming surgery using acupuncture as anesthesia. STUNNED does not even describe their reactions.

The Community Program for Clinical Research on AIDS (CPCRA) did a large study comparing acupuncture to elavil for pain relief in peripheral neuropathy. I was a member of the team that designed that study. It was an amazing thing to watch Japanese and Chinese acupuncturists argue about which meridans to use for neuropathy. If memory serves the study was equivocal when the data was analyzed. I could be wrong as I was out of the biz by the time the study was finished.

On a anecdotal note from my personal experience......Many years ago (like 25) I was having huge amounts of trouble with my asthma due to eucalyptus allergies (I had just moved to the Bay Area). It was so bad I was on high dose (with a taper) prednisone 4 times in a year.....asthma out of control with nothing really working. My color was that gray you get when you don't move oxygen well.

A friend hounded me into going to an old chinese woman (Madame Wu) who was a chinese doctor for acupuncture. She did not speak much English....she just patted my hand and said.....no worry me fix.....as I was filling out paperwork. She watched me, took my pulses .........smiled and said.....you strong me fix.....

She put me on a table and stuck about 30 or so needles in my body..........I promptly went sound asleep for about 45 minutes..........this in a strange woman's house deep in Chinatown SF who spoke very little English. She finally came in and started taking out the needles......I woke up as she was doing that. She patted my hand and said........you fix now........and took me to a mirror.........I looked in the mirror and damn if I wasn't all pink and I could breathe.......I could feel the air moving in my lungs. I did not have any issues with my asthma at all....no meds....no nothing......for 3-4 years.

Flash forward about 15 years and I am living in Santa Fe NM. My lungs started acting up again..dirt allergies..I had been working with an acupuncturist designing a study using acupuncture for fatigue/quality of life issues. So.........I am in the middle of an attack....lips turning blue I need to go to the hospital....epi pen in hand....and I go to her office. She put about 6 or so needles in my back and my lungs opened up immediately........Air moved.........no western inhaler acts that fast..........

So from my experience acupuncture works great for asthma. And I would much prefer some needles to all those nasty western drugs.


Anyway............derail over

[WILDCAT]

I'm curious about this. How long did this exhaustion last? I ask because there wasn't ONE impact, there were twenty-one impacts! Over an extended period of time. The largest one happened about 7:30 in the morning GMT two days after the 'event' began.



Let me ask you AJ, when it's said that a beam of light goes to infinity, do you believe that? I kinda "don't", as the battery from a flashlight, "think?" (small beam example) only has so much power, but some would say the different levels of light never end, so still go to points of where we cannot see anymore or recognize with our naked eye, (or some such effect?). I've heard something about a candle light in a room...(?) Like the immediate flame - sure we see quite clearly, and then an outer one (ring/glow - uh huh), and then... well, really the whole room does have light affect, different levels of it to it's darkest corners. [/quote]

Well, do I believe that it goes on forever? Yes, after a fashion I do. The light from a flashlight is the same 'stuff' as the light from the sun (albeit, in the case of the former, a much more narrow band of the stuff). The light from any source (regardless of what that source is) spreads out according to the inverse square law (our old friend from a couple of days ago) such that as it travels it becomes more diffuse and as it gets more diffuse, it becomes more and more dim. To give you a sense of what is happening, think of a laser--the most focused and coherent stream of photons (light) that we know how to create. A laser pointed at the Moon starts out as a tightly focused beam maybe one or two human hairs think (40 microns or so), by the time it reaches the moon it is a beam a *mile* wide!

So does the light keep going forever? Yes, it does since photons (particles of light) have no mass they just keep moving at the speed of light. However, because of the inverse square law, they become very, very dim to the point of not being visible but the photons are still traveling. Some alien intelligence, looking back at the Earth wouldn't really notice our visible light because it would be washed out by the brightness of the Sun. In fact, most of our light transmissions would be washed out by the sun with the exception of microwave and radio transmissions. These would be *very* faint but there would be a lot more of them than one would expect from a star like ours which would be a tip-off to any aliens doing a SETI-like search.




I know the show you're talking about. NOVA has done some pretty decent work on CAM therapies but there's only so much you can communicate in one hour. My reading on CAM therapies is that when subjected to the kind of testing we put every OTHER medical intervention through (or did before the Republicans decided that the FDA and the NIH were boondoggles and gutted them) there's no healing ability beyond what we would expect from the placebo effect.




The difference here is that the meteor crashing into the Earth is actually obeying some rather simple physics. As it moves through the air, it is displacing air (thus the shockwave in front of it and the sonic boom behind) and being heated by friction (thus the glow). When it hits, all of that energy gets transferred to the Earth and using a very simple equation (Force=mass*acceleration) we can make predictions about what kinds of things we should see. If it hits the water, it will displace the water (thus a tsunami) and then when it finally strikes solid ground it will displace more earth (thus a second tsunami) causing it to eject into the stratosphere. The heat will be transferred to the ejecta and a crater will form.

The thing is, we've detected all four forces. Now, to give you an idea of just how sensitive our instruments are we can detect the strong and weak nuclear forces. These are of such short range that they ONLY exist inside atoms! You will never ever feel either the nuclear force or the weak force. Even though this is true, the gravitational force is weaker than either of those. The only reason why gravity seems so strong is that there's so damn much mass in the Earth to create it. So if there's some other force out there then it is MUCH weaker than the gravitational force and would need to be shorter range than either the strong or weak nuclear forces in order to explain why we haven't detected it so far. Might there be one? Sure, it's *possible* but that doesn't make it likely.




Actually, these are not different *at all*. In fact, if we were in a perfectly sealed spaceship and moving at a constant velocity you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between being on the spaceship and being at rest on the launchpad! They would feel *exactly* the same, provided we didn't accelerate. There's nothing particularly special about being on land or in space when talking about movement. Acceleration and gravity are interchangeable for one another.

One thing I find really interesting about these discussions is just how much other people trust their brains/minds and how little I trust mine. I presume that my brain is error-ridden, tends to see patterns where none exists, and subject to various optical-illusions and errors in thinking. I sometimes *wish* that I trusted my brain enough to presume that if I think that, for instance, my grandmother contacted me psychically the night she died that means that she *did* contact me. However, I don't trust my brain that much which might seem odd but it isn't. My habit of thinking is to try to avoid what I *want* to be true and to always question 'why do I think this is the way things work'.

Cheers
Aj[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the responses AJ.

You know I'm not sure of length of time (feeling affected), being back that far - and I was recovering from a nice contusion on the left side of my brain, where my "intuitive" right side kind of blew wide open at that time. I'm not sure what your opinion is of the left brain/right brain functions. It seems medical scientists know or have concluded quite a bit thus far...(?)

I had been told for many years that I needed to get past my left side thinking brain, as I was too "triple earth grounded", from my birth moment - if one believes spacing, location and allignment with planets and all, longitude/latitude, and time of births affect our personalites and such. (Horoscope, planetary allignment charting stuff is where I would hear this... I knew some good astrologers, who respected this as such a science?)

However, it (being so left brain) helped me to be very good at the type of work that I did. And even being sensitive as an emotional human being really helped me in the field I was in! (Of course, other factors affect who we are also.)

However, I'm thinking I may have an incorrect reference of collision here. Did something happen around '94? I'm thinking this was actually two comets colliding? And it seems to me that it happened around 3:30PM something - give or take so many minutes...(?)

Then, I just happened to look at the clock, and found out later it was the same precise time of the collision I have in mind. I nearly blacked out, like getting shot up with a heavy tranquilizer, or something like that I hear of. I slept for a few hours, and I may have been out of it for a few days after - but again it is a bit fuzzy in recall now - but what an amazing coincidence that experience was.

And I apologize if I am mixing up collisions and dates. This is only one period that I identify with as something changed and happened, that I felt. It was quite particular - to me and some others I knew as it turned out. Perhaps other things happening out there in the great beyond had impact on me too over the years, I just don't think about it or keep abreast of much of the happenings - even though I am fascinated by it all. I saw on the "last" site, you had posted something, starting a thread on a near collision with something (meteor?) and earth, that we were not really told much about. I remember I wanted to write on that thread, but I think you dropped out of writing there sometime not too long after that. (Or, I found the thread... later after you had begun it.)

But, I digress a bit here.

Yeah, I'll bet it's hard trusting things with your brain having the type of scientific mind that you do. And there nothing to defend with a scientific mind or brain! It's all good, and necessary. All things serve their purposes, mostly good for the most part - I think! (I try and stay positive, but I'm only human!) I hope that your grandmother came to visit you though. How wonderful is that, if it were somehow true?

Years back, while living in N.Y.C. I was enjoying what happened to be Good Friday, reading the paper in my apt., the sun was streaming in and the cats were basking in it, and all was good and happy in my life - and then I was hit with the worst sense of PURE HARDCORE GRIEF that I have ever experienced. I bent over in emotional pain and cried and cried... I drove into Manhattan (from Brooklyn) sobbing so hard my stomach hurt and I wasn't driving too well in the heavy traffic! I went to my girlfriends at that time, and she saw my facial and body expression and asked what had happened. I could only say, someone just died and that I was so much pain and full of grief... (and I said it must be my one grandmother, I just naturally, for whatever reason, assumed her - she was older and I felt such a close "gut" feeling about this, etc... I didn't question someone had died, I knew.) So, I stayed with her until Easter Sunday and she came back with me on Sunday. I said "can't you feel the change in the energy just coming into the neighborhood"? I know that doesn't make sense, it was just how I was feeling. She of course, did not pick up on anything different. I also said there was going to be one message on the answering machine and it wasn't going to be good news.

Well, there was one. I didn't want to take it, but she said "what if it is for me" from a family member? So, here it was my best friend from Pittsburgh. We were getting ready to go to Washington for an AIDS demonstration or gay rights (?)... and I really thought I was nuts right then, and that he was calling about our hotel arrangements for D.C. So, I called him and rattled off this hysteria to him (it's kind of funny now, thinking about it) and he was SOOOOOOO quiet. I asked him if I interrupted sex between him and his partner! He just said, "no, I don't know how to tell you this". And what it was, on Good Friday an ex-girlfriend of mine had died - and I'm telling you AJ I don't have a doubt in my mind that she was there in spirit or something somehow, in an INSTANT!

I later found out she did closure with everyone, all of our old friends - except for my best friend in Pittsburgh (and they had not kept in touch anyway), and myself. In fact, she asked folks not to let me know she was dying. She lived in San Fran then.

Just a little story to think about... (?)

Hope you're having a nice day!
__

Oh, when I said "I'm talking about movement on land and space, as being something different", I believe I was in my head relating the difference to biblical like stories and religion based on these stories that folks believe in, that we have no fact of... not the difference between impact on land and space - just movement wherever (including impacts). But, appreciate your explanation on that. And I might even being mixing your response up incorrectly (?)

I have a fun little old link somewhere I want to track down and post. I'd be curious to see what some folks think of it... It in interesting and ties into science and astrology, etc... I'll look for it (once my cramps settle down).

And another question for ya AJ. What is outside of our known "universe"? Do you think it's possible that there are other universes - that space is infinite and that it is quite possible (and beyond our current scientific capabilities) to see or know about this at this time? Like for shits and giggles, say somewhere like earth exist in another universe, and perhaps folks are much more advanced and different spiritually - having evolved I'll say, (kind of like in the movie Contact, if you happened to have seen that, with Jodie Foster).

I think how in the '60 our rockets shot up and dumped back into the ocean, and now we have precision landing. Maybe that's why at vary times in history here, folks perhaps saw various flying objects or crafts - not familiar to them? (And no, I don't believe all stories!) If we advanced so quickly in a few short decades, what about somewhere else, maybe "ahead of us" then? Maybe we will evolve in ways not yet understood. Maybe there's somewhere behind us evolving where we or others "were"...(?) How can there ONLY be space past our universe? And of course, I don't think there is a wall or sorts to stop space...

Just thinking here... letting the Motrin kick in.

Thanks,
Wildcat

*If this is too deraily folks, oops.

[dreadgeek]

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Thanks for the responses AJ.

You know I'm not sure of length of time (feeling affected), being back that far - and I was recovering from a nice contusion on the left side of my brain, where my "intuitive" right side kind of blew wide open at that time. I'm not sure what your opinion is of the left brain/right brain functions. It seems medical scientists know or have concluded quite a bit thus far...(?)

It's clear that the brain organizes itself in hemispheres and that these hemispheres have somewhat different roles. I see no reason, at present, to doubt that this is the case.


However, I'm thinking I may have an incorrect reference of collision here. Did something happen around '94? I'm thinking this was actually two comets colliding? And it seems to me that it happened around 3:30PM something - give or take so many minutes...(?)

The Shoemaker-Levy collision with Jupiter was in the summer of 1994, over a period of about a week. Keep in mind that if you are saying you felt some signal sent to you from Jupiter that signal took around 45 minutes to reach you (that's the transit time for a signal, moving at the speed of light, to go from Jupiter to Earth).



And I apologize if I am mixing up collisions and dates. This is only one period that I identify with as something changed and happened, that I felt. It was quite particular - to me and some others I knew as it turned out. Perhaps other things happening out there in the great beyond had impact on me too over the years, I just don't think about it or keep abreast of much of the happenings - even though I am fascinated by it all. I saw on the "last" site, you had posted something, starting a thread on a near collision with something (meteor?) and earth, that we were not really told much about. I remember I wanted to write on that thread, but I think you dropped out of writing there sometime not too long after that. (Or, I found the thread... later after you had begun it.)

You might be talking about the Apophis near-Earth pass event that will take place in 2029. I've written about it elsewhere on this thread so I'll just give the quick recap. Apophis will pass VERY close to Earth (lower than the geosynchronous orbit of satellites) in 2029. It's not likely to hit the Earth then however, if it passes through a very small region called a 'keyhole' (I was wrong in my earlier post the keyhole is only about 600 meters across) then on its outbound pass it will hit the Earth on April 13, 2036.


Yeah, I'll bet it's hard trusting things with your brain having the type of scientific mind that you do.

This is a matter of training my mind to behave. I was, at one point in my life, a believer in faith healing, speaking in tongues, that homosexuality was caused by a demon, all manner of non-sensical things. After I left that worldview, I spent another few years studying astrology and tarot until one of my professor's asked me to explain how astrology worked in a complete and full manner since I was claiming it was scientific. When I couldn't come up with a reasonable mechanism, given the standard of astronomy (and since I was claiming that astrology and astronomy were both science the standard of evidence had to be normalized between the two) I had to abandon my faith in astronomy.


I hope that your grandmother came to visit you though. How wonderful is that, if it were somehow true?

That would be a nice thought but that doesn't make it a true thought.


And another question for ya AJ. What is outside of our known "universe"?

Well that depends upon what you mean by the 'known universe'. If you mean 'what is the Universe expanding into' I'm not sure that I can even give a speculative answer because I don't know and I'm not sure that it is a meaningful question. We are used to things like balloons expanding into available space but, as I understand it, as the Universe expands more space is being created! So outside of that known universe, I have no idea. There's another concept of known universe (and it's the one I prefer because it makes more sense to me) is that which is visible within our light-cone. Keep in mind that whenever you see *anything* you are looking at as it was however long ago light left it. Now, for all of our day-to-day seeing that can be considered instantaneous because light is fast and nothing on Earth is far away when traveling at the speed of light. However, when you look at the sun you are not seeing as it is now but as it was 8 minutes ago. So telescopes are, after a fashion, time machines. The very BEST telescope humans have built, the Hubble Space Telescope, can see back to the early Universe when it was only half a billion years old. But no further back than that. Why? Because before that the Universe was too hot for there to be free-floating photons so that is out of what is called our 'light cone'.


Do you think it's possible that there are other universes - that space is infinite and that it is quite possible (and beyond our current scientific capabilities) to see or know about this at this time?

I think it's *possible* certainly. What I have read of various multiverse hypothesis seem reasonably coherent although it's hard wrapping my head around them.


Like for shits and giggles, say somewhere like earth exist in another universe, and perhaps folks are much more advanced and different spiritually - having evolved I'll say, (kind of like in the movie Contact, if you happened to have seen that, with Jodie Foster).

Well, we don't necessarily have to look outside our universe for that. Given how many stars there are in all of the galaxies I think it's likely that life exists elsewhere in the Universe. Given what a neat trick intelligence is, I'd be willing to wager that there's other *intelligent* life in the Universe. Now, I think the supreme cosmic joke is that there may be intelligent life throughout the Universe but because of the limitation of the speed of light, we're all isolated in our little pockets.


I think how in the '60 our rockets shot up and dumped back into the ocean, and now we have precision landing. Maybe that's why at vary times in history here, folks perhaps saw various flying objects or crafts - not familiar to them? (And no, I don't believe all stories!) If we advanced so quickly in a few short decades, what about somewhere else, maybe "ahead of us" then?

I very strongly doubt that the Earth has been visited by extraterrestial beings. The reasons for this are numerous. For starters, exploration of distant stars is time consuming so if you're going to go somewhere you have a destination. Let's say we could build a spaceship capable of traveling the speed of light. A round-trip to the next *nearest* star would be 8 years (four out and four back). Because of the time-dilation affect, your subjective 8 years would be close to a thousand years here on Earth! So there's that for starters (this is not something related to us on Earth this is just true for ANY civilization that could build a ship that could accelerate to the speed of light). So why would aliens come to this planet? Until about 100 years ago, there would be no sure tell-tale sign from space that the planet had *intelligent* life (you could view the chemistry of our atmosphere and, presuming you were from a planet like Earth where animals breathed oxygen, surmise that this much oxygen in the atmosphere means that there must be plant life). So until we started sending radio signals out we would look like a planet with an unusually poisonous atmosphere (remember that oxygen is waste gas of plants). The other reason I doubt that we've been visited is that the energy requirements would be HUGE.

I'm not saying that interstellar travel is impossible. I'd like to believe that, in fact, some civilization has reduced the problem from a scientific issue (can it be done) to an engineering problem (how to do it economically and safely).


Cheers
Aj

[friskyfemme]

Frisky:

All we have in science is theories*. A fact is data. The way I like to explain it is like this: Fact: The Earth orbits the Sun. Theory: The Sun's gravitational mass describes various orbits around its center of mass. Earth occupies the third orbital position and is taking the least energetic path around the sun. Now, it so happens that theory is very much in agreement with observation and that is the mark of good science. It sounds like the issue you have with scientists is that they approach things like, well, scientists.



So the spiritual level is all-knowing? Because that's what I take the use of the word omniscience to mean?


*A theory, in science, isn't a guess. A theory, in science, is a well-established model for how some system works in nature. When I use the term theory, I am (almost) always using the scientific use of that term. In fact, when I use the term theory in these venues it's the *only* way I use that term because to do otherwise just creates confusion.

Cheers
Aj
Dread
Thanks for your clarification regarding the 'scientific' use of theory.
It is my intention to say spiritual= omiscience 'total awarenes/all knowing'. Each of the levels are representative of beginning of itself to the touch of the next. It is truly a simplistic view of existence. Each brings it's own properties to life. The physical(body), what is measureable, mental (mind), what is reasoned, spirit, what is.

[Toughy]

Dread
Thanks for your clarification regarding the 'scientific' use of theory.
It is my intention to say spiritual= omiscience 'total awarenes/all knowing'. Each of the levels are representative of beginning of itself to the touch of the next. It is truly a simplistic view of existence. Each brings it's own properties to life. The physical(body), what is measureable, mental (mind), what is reasoned, spirit, what is.

Maybe it's because I haven't had breakfast yet......

This post makes absolutely no sense to me. Can you clarify what you mean?

[BornBronson]

*snort*

I think that's the year Sarah Palin will be our first woman president.Y'all know we should of put Mrs.Clinton in first.:canoworms:

[morningstar55]

what do you all think about
this video...

g7cylfQtkDg

[Rockinonahigh]

*snort*

I think that's the year Sarah Palin will be our first woman president.Y'all know we should of put Mrs.Clinton in first.:canoworms:

Lord help us if Sara Palin becomes our first woman prezz,Hillary should run again,but I doubt she will.

[friskyfemme]

what do you all think about
this video...

g7cylfQtkDg
MS,
Thank you for posting this.
I follow the believe that the change is near. I also believe that before the renewal is death. As human beings become aware of ending, there will be diverse reaction some will choose to ignore it, some will embrace it, some will try to change it. I believe there will be major chaos which will grow with the change setting off a catastrophic panic. I think if you are living respectful of your environment, you'll survive the change.

[EnderD_503]

I think the same thing about it as I do any other claim that the end is nigh. Just like with Y2K people will hype about it as it approaches, then once it's past everyone will forget about it and move onto the next "apocalypse." People have been thinking the end of humanity was around the corner for millions of years now, probably starting with the first thunder clap heard by human ears.

Every few years people freak out because some "prophecy" or misinterpreted piece of information says so. Y2K, the Large Hadron Collider, some meteor spotted near earth, Nostradamus. Take your pick.

[Venus007]

1. That I am going back to Detroit to Honest John's Bar and No Grill to attend a party on 12/20/2012 from 10pm-2am 2012 called "Absolutely NO Tabs" I am looking forward to it greatly

2. That I will only have less than a year to prepare for the roll out of ICD-10.

Other than that, I think the guy who made the calendar had to stop somewhere and so he did.

I would wish fervently it would mean the end of the world as we know it as far as pinched irrational nastiness but I am thinking it is too much to ask.

[Kobi]

December 21, 2012 will be my 57th birthday. I have a ritual of going out for breakfast with a pal for cranberry-walnut pancakes. I am giving the universe notice that I expect to get my pancakes BEFORE anything out of the ordinary happens.

Have read up on the projections for that date. The science and theories are fascinating, invigorating, and sometimes downright astounding. But, I think I am sticking to my wait and see approach to most projections of impending doom. No sense wasting time and energy on something I have no control over.

I'm thinking it is also going to take me til 2013 to figure out what Aj and Wildcat are debating.

[Luckydwg07]

The Year Of The Dragon ~ Appalachian Trail Thru Hike? :)

[Cyclopea]

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0911/palin-2012-demotivational-poster-1258177543.jpg

[Scorp]

God Help Us All........... :eek: :eek: :eek:




http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0911/palin-2012-demotivational-poster-1258177543.jpg

[Cyclopea]

God Help Us All........... :eek: :eek: :eek:
The End Is Nigh...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_to_dITiFe90/S1cGtiTSA_I/AAAAAAAADBw/tDr0rkGu-Gs/s320/palin-beck2012.jpg



http://www.allhatnocattle.net/sarah-palin-glenn-beck.jpg-



.

[FlowerFem]

I believe this date will come and go just like Y2k did. Just like 10/10/10 did. Just like 6/6/6 did. " The sky is falling the sky is falling, I think I hear chicken little.......

[Starbuck]

I'm gonna greet, what day is it? December 21st? 22nd? 2012 head on and say, "bring it..."

[foxyshaman]

The Mayan calendar does not predict the end of the world in 2012. I know that many of our global doomsayers are predicting that, but I REFUSE to stand in line to buy FEAR, no matter how good the bargain basement price is. Good grief. I don't know what is going to happen, but I am hopeful for some sort of spiritual awakening, whatever the heck that means.

We had an amazing ritual on Dec 21. The eclipse was beautiful and the ritual was just astounding, everyone came away with a feelings of connection, peace and renewal. Each solstice and equinox to Dec 21, 2012 I will spend in ritual. 2012 for me means a new beginning. Who knows maybe the world will change so drastically that I will no longer be allergic to :eatinghersheybar: and maybe I will want a pair of :blueheels: and maybe I can :phonegab: to long lost friends. Maybe it will be a birth of hope... hey I could get behind that.

[Andrew, Jr.]

If the world ends, it ends. I am more than ready to meet my maker. I personally believe that nothing will happen on 2012. Just hype. It will be time when God says it's time.


:moonstars:

[dreadgeek]

It's 21 December 2012. No rogue planets crashing into the Earth. No gigantic solar storms knocking the planet on its axis. No gigantic solar flares knocking out all electronics on the planet. No polar shifts. And another prophecy of "we're all gonna die! The wisdom of the ancients tells us so!" goes into the dustbin of ludicrous history.

[Girl_On_Fire]

I had heard of December 21st, 2012 since I was a very young child. I always had it in the back of my mind. I never really bought into the whole "we're all gonna die" mentality but since I'm open-minded, I believed anything was possible. Since we're all still here, I can only hope that the changes that this date has ushered in have come quietly but will improve our lives for the better. I, myself, am filled with great hope.

[Ginger]

I was thinking about this.

12/12/12 is the furthest logical extension of a certain pattern finally made possible in this century: 1/1/1, 2/2/2/ 3/3/3, etc.

Maybe the Mayans just meant, it's the end of that pattern.

But then I heard, they didn't have the same numerical system for years. 12/12/12 is actually represented with some other numerical symbols i their system.

So then I thought, well maybe it's the furthest logical extension in whatever system they do have.

But I don't know have enough information to check that out.

And then I started thinking, maybe it's the "end" in a more subtle way.

Maybe something happened on 12/12/12 that set into motion, a series of events that will culminate in the end of the world.

But if you look at it that way, the "end" started as soon as the earth "began," because the thing that set it into motion was itself set into motion by something before that—

so the end has always been inevitable, according to that logic.

What a cheery thought.

[Toughy]

The Mayan calendar did not frigging end............shaking my hand. The date (and I'm not it's actually 12/21/12) simply marks the end of the long count cycle. The next long count cycle began on 12/22/12 (date questionable).

It's a cyclic thang that calendar........no end in sight ever.........

[Ginger]

The Mayan calendar did not frigging end............shaking my hand. The date (and I'm not it's actually 12/21/12) simply marks the end of the long count cycle. The next long count cycle began on 12/22/12 (date questionable).

It's a cyclic thang that calendar........no end in sight ever.........



LOL "shaking your head"

Oh! It's 12/21/12, not 12/12/12!!!

I feel like Rosanne Rosanna Dan, and "Soviet Jewelry"—Never mind!!!