Do you *want* people to assume you're a man?

[stephfromMIT]

In my thread about my doctor esperience, I made mention of the fact that if you saw me, you might assume I'm male. I was asked if I liked the idea of "passing". I replied that I hate that I can/do "pass". What does everyone else think?

[apretty]

Seriously.

[BullDog]

No I do not.

Yes, it is an issue for butch women.

[girl_dee]

i cannot answer for Syr but i think she prefers to be seen as a woman in the world.

[Hack]

I shoot for human being first, followed closely by somewhat smart and funny. As long as people are nice to me, how they perceive me is entirely up to them.

[The_Lady_Snow]

In my thread about my doctor esperience, I made mention of the fact that if you saw me, you might assume I'm male. I was asked if I liked the idea of "passing". I replied that I hate that I can/do "pass". What does everyone else think?

steph did you really go to MIT!!?!! ;) :) I am just kidding with you.


I am gonna assume that if you are not a man, or identify as a man, then your not going to like being referred to, or mistaken as a man. It is just that simple.

How do you handle it when you "steph" are mistaken for a man?

Another interesting topic...

[stephfromMIT]

Snow-Gender Studies doesn't overlap with Physics AFAIK. ;)

[BullDog]

Um women wear jeans and t shirt too.

I understand the underlying stuff that's going on, but I am real confused why people don't understand the issue of butch women not wanting to be seen as men. Oh well, learn something new every day.

[durrrrrrrr]

I am me. I don't give a fuck what others think of me.

[aishah]

most female id'ed butches i know want to be perceived as women. most male id'ed and trans butches i know want to be perceived as men.

clothing doesn't "make" one's gender id. i agree with bulldog...jeans and t-shirts are not just for men.

I am gonna assume that if you are not a man, or identify as a man, then your not going to like being referred to, or mistaken as a man. It is just that simple.

this.

[girl_dee]

Im confused, If someone doesnt want to be percieved as a man, or masculine why dress so masculine knowing it would cause this problem, I dress masculine but I accept that people will mistake me for a man, because I am comfortable in jeans and t shirts

Question?

What does *dress masculine* mean to you?

[macele]

i know what charming is talking about, and i know what bulldog is talking about. we are all just different and assuming is most often not a good thing to do.

truth. i like doing tomboy stuff. i'm not a man. i like being a woman. just because i have a ball cap on, ... don't assume i'm male. men don't own the patent to ball caps.

[CharmingButch25]

I went ahead and deleted my message, I dont want to cause drama in this thread,

What I said was misunderstood and I am sorry, have a good day all

Dressing masculine, I dunno Cajun, I dress in guys jeans,cargo shorts,t shirts, baseball cap, boxers,wifebeaters,v neck white shirts, I buy from the mens section,

[Corkey]

I am me, male ID's so for Me, yes, but my cloths don't make who I am, my brain does. Other folks not so much. Personal preferences are just that. Am I seen as a man in the world? Sometimes, until I turn sidewise, ya' just can't mistake the chesticals....

[stephfromMIT]

most female id'ed butches i know want to be perceived as women. most male id'ed and trans butches i know want to be perceived as men.

clothing doesn't "make" one's gender id. i agree with bulldog...jeans and t-shirts are not just for men.



this.

Put WAY better than I could've/did!

[BullDog]

I really don't care if a store clerk or someone like that temporarily mistakes me for a man. But I don't want to be viewed like a man or seen as a man or treated as man. It also doesn't surprise me that butches who prefer male pronouns wouldn't care.

I do wear all mens clothes and I am a butch woman. :)

[Okiebug61]

I went ahead and deleted my message, I dont want to cause drama in this thread,

What I said was misunderstood and I am sorry, have a good day all

Dressing masculine, I dunno Cajun, I dress in guys jeans,cargo shorts,t shirts, baseball cap, boxers,wifebeaters,v neck white shirts, I buy from the mens section,

I know this has been brought up before but I'll say it here. Referring to your tee-shirts as W**B###%# is not cool.

I wasn't born with a handbook that said I had to dress in certain clothes, and certain colors. It bothers me that along with gender assignment so many think the outer part has to meet the so called "normal" look.

[DaddyNik12]

let see , yes i get called Sir alot in public , and I dress in mens clothing , shop in mens wear dept . yes I have the facial hair , have i takin t-shot ? NO ! but sometimes I think and react like a male ..but who doesnt ? each person can act and think in thier own way! some use the hy , he , boi , boy but as I said each to thier own and do i get double takeing looks ? bet your ass I do , do I care ? hell no ..I am me.:cigar :cigar2:

[CharmingButch25]

I apologize if that reference offended you , I didn't realize but I dont like them being called that either I just didn't know what else they are called, tank tops I guess hope that's better , id take the reference out of my post but cant from my phone.

[CharmingButch25]

That was exactly what I was trying to say thank you ,Nik

[Corkey]

A lines or tanks are perfectly acceptable.

The thing with assuming is this, it presupposes, often wrongly so. I'm sure everyone has heard of the quote, "to assume makes an ass out of you and me." Don't assume, if one doesn't know ask, respectfully.
:)

[The_Lady_Snow]

I apologize if that reference offended you , I didn't realize but I dont like them being called that either I just didn't know what else they are called, tank tops I guess hope that's better , id take the reference out of my post but cant from my phone.



Hi:)

I'm gonna help you out since no one else has, the t-shirts are called A Line shirts, tank tops, or better yet Wife Pleasers:)

OOPS I'm on my phone didn't see where folks helped you out!!!!


Thanks everyone!

[CharmingButch25]

Thank you Lady, I really didn't mean to offend anyone.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank you Lady, I really didn't mean to offend anyone.



Hang in there CB! It's rough but you'll catch on quick!

[Daywalker]

I don't 'pass' unless someone thinks
they teleported back to Woodstock.

:peacelove:

:daywalker:

[Parker]

In my thread about my doctor esperience, I made mention of the fact that if you saw me, you might assume I'm male. I was asked if I liked the idea of "passing". I replied that I hate that I can/do "pass". What does everyone else think?

I absolutely hate it. It makes me feel invisible as a butch, but even more and in the grander scheme of things, it makes me feel invisible as a woman.

Just because it is called the men's department, it doesnt mean men are the only ones who own the right to wear the clothing, nor do men own masculinity.

Could I grow out my hair and wear more feminine clothing with makeup and earrings? Sure - but I would still be mistaken for a man, just a man in drag. Even when I was in high school and had long hair, wore earrings, some makeup, and whatever clothes my mom made me wear, people *still* thought I was a man.

It isnt about clothes and it bothers me that people still judge others based on their clothing or whether or not they wear a hat - which is what I get with the stuttered apologies when the person who called me sir stops and takes an actual look at me, seeing that I am, in fact, a woman.

So no, I dont like that I pass as a man 90% of the time, but I am not about to change how I look, dress, stand, or walk just to appease the people who think I should dress, act, look, walk, etc a certain way so that I will be perceived by them to be the woman that I already am.

Btw - this is not at all directed at you, CharmingButch - I would have posted about clothing, etc whether you mentioned it or not - it's the world that sees me this way based on the clothing I wear, not you - we've never even met. lol :winky:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Steph, I find it funny (not in a ha ha way) that you've not shared your experience on how you feels when mistaken for a man.

How come?

[stephfromMIT]

Fair enough. When it happens, and it doesn't happen often, I just gently correct them, by telling them my name. :D

[The_Lady_Snow]

Fair enough. When it happens, and it doesn't happen often, I just gently correct them, by telling them my name. :D



Right?!


That's the polite thing to do:)


Thanks!

[*Anya*]

I know this has been brought up before but I'll say it here. Referring to your tee-shirts as W**B###%# is not cool.


In another thread I saw a butch call them wife-lovers.

I think that is kind of cute!

[morningstar55]

When I and electrocell were together.....
if I had a dime everyone someone calls.hm a him, he, sir , my husband id b a millionaire ha
and I cant speak for hm , but it never ever bothered me to be around hm when ths happens .. I always felt comfy with hm .
I been put on the spot a lot of times others askng me y cell looks the way he does... my answer
He was born that way.
That usually ends the conversation:)

[morningstar55]

CrAps spider laThe PHONE!!!'

[jac]

I am continuously mistaken for male.... until they see my chest area. Then they backstep and apologize and blah blah blah. I don't dress nor act the part to be seen as male. I am me and I walk the streets as the person that I am comfortable being. If this is what most perceive to be male, then there ya go.... It doesn't bother me in the least to be called sir, buddy or male. I answer to any of it. I leave the interpretation of what is seen to the individual. If it makes the other person more comfortable to see me as male then fine, or female then fine. I know I am a female. I know I appear to be male.

Do I "want" people to assume I am a man? It really doesn't bother me in the least. I've never felt icky about it or bad, sad angry, in fact there are times it feels kinda good. Actually more often than not (when it happens). :)

[The_Lady_Snow]

When I and electrocell were together.....
if I had a dime everyone someone calls.hm a him, he, sir , my husband id b a millionaire ha
and I cant speak for hm , but it never ever bothered me to be around hm when ths happens .. I always felt comfy with hm .
I been put on the spot a lot of times others askng me y cell looks the way he does... my answer
He was born that way.
That usually ends the conversation:)



I can see where that would be comfy if said butch identified as man or is man (self-made ) etc.


But if said butch didn't then a polite correction is gonna happen because people either forget or weren't taught that masculinity is not for just "man".


Butch woman is a perfect example of female masculinity at it's finest, that's where we go wrong with that whole gender assigning crap!!

[Ginger]

StephFromMIT,

I've heard people outside the GLBT community ask questions like, "If you like masculine women, why aren't you with a man?" or "Why do they dress like that? Do they want to be men?"

To me, your question, "Do you want people to assume you're a man?" is kind of in that category. It's a question I would never have thought to ask, myself, and have never heard one LGBT person ask another, so it really caught my eye.

Steph, have you known butch women (who were not trans), who wanted people to assume they were men?

It would be interesting to hear about that.

I have never known a butch woman who wanted people to think she's a man.

And so far, no one responding on this thread has said she wants people to assume she's a man, though some have said that when it happens, they aren't bothered.

Thank you for answering my question, above.

Scout

[Corkey]

Although I didn't say so in so many words, I would like to be seen for who I am, will it happen, more than likely not.

[DaddyNik12]

your welcome Charming :)

[Kelt]

Interesting thread

I am seeing two types of answers
a) what do we want
b) what do we get

Ok, a third
c) how do we feel about the match/mismatch between the two

I'm enjoying seeing the variety in the answers so far. I'll toss in my two cents with the up front codicil that I am only relating my opinion and fully respect the opinions of others that differ from mine.

What I want for myself is to just be a person. No gender label need be applied, no preferred pronouns. Just a person/human/being. A while back someone else coined the term gender-free and I like it. I happily answer to things like my name, or even "Hey you!"

Yeah well, we don't live in that world. What I get labeled by others seems to be as dependent on location as much as anything else. I noticed this especially on a road trip I took by myself last summer. Where I live now has a high percentage of gay population, very liberal politics, and folks are used to looking before speaking. I am usually addressed as female. When I was out driving through a variety different towns of varying sizes and political climates, mileage varied. I chose a route of "blue roads", two lane highways with some mid-sized and many small to tiny towns along the way. My experience was that the mid sized towns yielded the most blunder type incidences of being called Sir and if noticed we would just have a bit of a laugh. (I try to put people at easy and really don't care anyway). The small towns, pop. over say 1000, were where I encountered the most real confusion and the folks seemed defensive, even if I said nothing, and a couple of times I encountered open hostility. I found it interesting in light of that, the tiny towns pop. less than 500 down to 39, seemed to find my appearance totally normal. I think maybe because these were ranch and farm towns where everyone was in "work" (male) clothes and no one thought twice about it. Even my crew cut didn't phase anyone and I was referred to as female. Of course this only applied to this one person on a trip that only covered three states and one province.

So, for me it varies. As far as match/mismatch goes, they both kind of bother me because I don't see a need for assigning gender in general public settings. Is "Good morning miss, ma'am, sir, fella" somehow better or more appropriate than just "Good morning"?

Recognizing I am probably in the minority on this, just wanted to toss my hat in the ring.

[stephfromMIT]

Island-I have many Militia teamates who are butch, though I don't think they male ID.

[Corkey]

Interesting thread

I am seeing two types of answers
a) what do we want
b) what do we get

Ok, a third
c) how do we feel about the match/mismatch between the two

I'm enjoying seeing the variety in the answers so far. I'll toss in my two cents with the up front codicil that I am only relating my opinion and fully respect the opinions of others that differ from mine.

What I want for myself is to just be a person. No gender label need be applied, no preferred pronouns. Just a person/human/being. A while back someone else coined the term gender-free and I like it. I happily answer to things like my name, or even "Hey you!"

Yeah well, we don't live in that world. What I get labeled by others seems to be as dependent on location as much as anything else. I noticed this especially on a road trip I took by myself last summer. Where I live now has a high percentage of gay population, very liberal politics, and folks are used to looking before speaking. I am usually addressed as female. When I was out driving through a variety different towns of varying sizes and political climates, mileage varied. I chose a route of "blue roads", two lane highways with some mid-sized and many small to tiny towns along the way. My experience was that the mid sized towns yielded the most blunder type incidences of being called Sir and if noticed we would just have a bit of a laugh. (I try to put people at easy and really don't care anyway). The small towns, pop. over say 1000, were where I encountered the most real confusion and the folks seemed defensive, even if I said nothing, and a couple of times I encountered open hostility. I found it interesting in light of that, the tiny towns pop. less than 500 down to 39, seemed to find my appearance totally normal. I think maybe because these were ranch and farm towns where everyone was in "work" (male) clothes and no one thought twice about it. Even my crew cut didn't phase anyone and I was referred to as female. Of course this only applied to this one person on a trip that only covered three states and one province.

So, for me it varies. As far as match/mismatch goes, they both kind of bother me because I don't see a need for assigning gender in general public settings. Is "Good morning miss, ma'am, sir, fella" somehow better or more appropriate than just "Good morning"?

Recognizing I am probably in the minority on this, just wanted to toss my hat in the ring.

Gets it, and has been saying for a few years, we're all Human, that's my label, the rest is how I see myself, not how the world sees me.

[Sweet_Amor_Taino]

I am not a man although I dress male nothing feminine ever !! My mannerism is male. My energy is strong but gentle.
My femme and I enjoy the butch femme dance. Women and man.

I probably when off track but while out in the public if I am referred to as Mr.
I am not offended and once they see I am a women they apologies and I respond it's OK.

[Electrocell]

Fair enough. When it happens, and it doesn't happen often, I just gently correct them, by telling them my name. :D

LOL my first legal name is Cynthia yet when I went to get my 1st drivers license they put male on it. Had that corrected moved to NM and exchanged TN license for NM they put male on it just left it that way until I moved to Utah I believe.

[Electrocell]

Kinda the way I feel doesn't bother me either way.


I am continuously mistaken for male.... until they see my chest area. Then they backstep and apologize and blah blah blah. I don't dress nor act the part to be seen as male. I am me and I walk the streets as the person that I am comfortable being. If this is what most perceive to be male, then there ya go.... It doesn't bother me in the least to be called sir, buddy or male. I answer to any of it. I leave the interpretation of what is seen to the individual. If it makes the other person more comfortable to see me as male then fine, or female then fine. I know I am a female. I know I appear to be male.

Do I "want" people to assume I am a man? It really doesn't bother me in the least. I've never felt icky about it or bad, sad angry, in fact there are times it feels kinda good. Actually more often than not (when it happens). :)

[Tcountry]

In my own little world it all depends on context...
Every day with my jeans, boots & bandana ..it could go either way & for the most part I just get the double take looks.
Sometimes checking out of a store, I get the deer in the headlight look when they say "here's Ur change sir" & I just give the a warm smile & say thank u (totally non-masculine voice)...
But when I dress up button up & tie & take an elegantly dressed lady to a nice dinner ...I Like the "sir" in fact I even tip them better than usual...I guess to me it is showing that they understand or at least respect that we are on a date& we will be treated as well as any other couple on a date...no less ....


*tip hat*

[jac]

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

[stephfromMIT]

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.

[Electrocell]

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.

Well when you get into the real world to work and such it will continue to happen believe me lol.

[Corkey]

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.


There's a thread for that!:phonegab:


"http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1528][/URL]

[Sparkle]

StephFromMIT,

I've heard people outside the GLBT community ask questions like, "If you like masculine women, why aren't you with a man?" or "Why do they dress like that? Do they want to be men?"

To me, your question, "Do you want people to assume you're a man?" is kind of in that category. It's a question I would never have thought to ask, myself, and have never heard one LGBT person ask another, so it really caught my eye.

Steph, have you known butch women (who were not trans), who wanted people to assume they were men?

It would be interesting to hear about that.

I have never known a butch woman who wanted people to think she's a man.

And so far, no one responding on this thread has said she wants people to assume she's a man, though some have said that when it happens, they aren't bothered.

Thank you for answering my question, above.

Scout

Just a point of semantics not all male-ID'd butches identify as trans (gender/sexual), and yet they may still feel more male than female.

The ID: genderqueer is a good example, and there are many others.

There are as many variations as there are individuals, and along with that, I expect a spectrum of feelings/beliefs/preferences as regards how they are perceived and addressed by the public, by the queer community, by their families, and their co-workers, and their peers, and their partners -- one butch might, in fact, have a variety of different preferences when it comes to IF they are perceived as a man or not, even some female-ID'd butches.

I feel as though your question is rooted in the binary, and that may be *your* experience and *your* peers' experience of butch identity...but I don't think "a butch does not want to be seen as a man" is a truism that applies to all non-trans butches.

[CherylNYC]

I apologize if that reference offended you , I didn't realize but I dont like them being called that either I just didn't know what else they are called, tank tops I guess hope that's better , id take the reference out of my post but cant from my phone.

The official name for those shirts is A Shirt. I always cringe when I hear them being called the more common name, and I do wish people would stop using it, but most people will have NO idea what you're talking about when you say "A Shirt".

[Ginger]

Just a point of semantics not all male-ID'd butches identify as trans (gender/sexual), and yet they may still feel more male than female.

The ID: genderqueer is a good example, and there are many others.

There are as many variations as there are individuals, and along with that, I expect a spectrum of feelings/beliefs/preferences as regards how they are perceived and addressed by the public, by the queer community, by their families, and their co-workers, and their peers, and their partners -- one butch might, in fact, have a variety of different preferences when it comes to IF they are perceived as a man or not, even some female-ID'd butches.

I feel as though your question is rooted in the binary, and that may be *your* experience and *your* peers' experience of butch identity...but I don't think "a butch does not want to be seen as a man" is a truism that applies to all non-trans butches.

Thanks, Sparkle, for your post.

I didn't mean to imply that all male-ID'd butches are trans. I'm not new to the b-f world or the GLBT world, etc. I've dated all kinds of butches and also dated transguys at many different levels of transitioning, including one with top and bottom surgery—not that those experiences mean I am not ignorant of the things you are explaining to me.

And no, I'm so not rooted in the binary.

Clearly my post was disastrously unclear, and did not accomplish what I was hoping it would, but you responded so thoughtfully, and I appreciate it.

[Corkey]

There's a thread called "Bravehearts----" started by Linus, for those of us who are not transitioning. I think that male id'd guys like me are not always going to transition, we're still Butch some of us, some are genderqueer, some Transgendered and not in transition. We're all still human with human needs and feelings.

[spritzerJ]

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

How I feel as a partner....
When my partner reacts to the assumptions with easy and even humor I relax. In general I feel protective of my sweeties feelings and wish them to be seen how they feel. I am not one that is good at in the moment corrections of other peoples behavior. I will give a touch that says "I know who you are" in the moment.

Beyond being assumed male by strangers or in passing... I support how the person wants to handle it.

[starryeyes]

Island-I have many Militia teamates who are butch, though I don't think they male ID.

Do you talk do your butch teammates? Seems you may need some sense of community. Make some friends and find out who you are and where you fit! We are great people here and you will learn bunches, but real life community connections are equality important.

Good luck.

[Lazy Daze]

I completely agree with both Corkey and Spritzer. Being partnered with a TG butch, it is about understanding who they are, how they feel about who they are, and how they wish others would see them. As Corkey pointed out, there are several TG butches who chose not to "transition" or become FTM. Yes, there is a difference between a TG butch and an FTM. My partner is TG. He is a Male Butch, or as he calls himself "a butch guy". Does he care if someone calls him Sir? No. Does he care if someone calls him ma'am, no. Because being gender queer, you cannot expect society to understand the personal struggles you go through with your own identity as TG.

As Spritzer pointed out, at the end of the day, I know who my partner is, and I support him in every way possible. He knows and appreciates my love for him, and that is all that matters. What people perceive of him, me, or our BF dance is not what matters.

[spritzerJ]

I completely agree with both Corkey and Spritzer. Being partnered with a TG butch, it is about understanding who they are, how they feel about who they are, and how they wish others would see them. As Corkey pointed out, there are several TG butches who chose not to "transition" or become FTM. Yes, there is a difference between a TG butch and an FTM. My partner is TG. He is a Male Butch, or as he calls himself "a butch guy". Does he care if someone calls him Sir? No. Does he care if someone calls him ma'am, no. Because being gender queer, you cannot expect society to understand the personal struggles you go through with your own identity as TG.

As Spritzer pointed out, at the end of the day, I know who my partner is, and I support him in every way possible. He knows and appreciates my love for him, and that is all that matters. What people perceive of him, me, or our BF dance is not what matters.


Not to highjack....

I am grateful that Stoney is so gracious, patient and kind about how people experience who Stoney is. This is not easy nor is it Stoney's job to be so patient with folks. People don't get it quickly when gender presentation isn't binary. I have experienced that my friends want to be respectful and use the right "pronoun" and even understand. And the patience gives them space to formulate their questions. I find questions can lead to understanding.

Specifically related to Stoney... my experience of hym is that hy values people getting to know hym. The pronoun matters not. Hy lets people get to know hym and expresses (looks, says, dresses, etc...) as hymself with out reservation.

Now of course I use hy when referencing Stoney on the planet but that is what we've talked about.

[aishah]

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

my partner identifies as butch and male (he is trans). he lived as a butch woman for a long time before transitioning. now he doesn't pass and it is a huge problem for him that he is constantly misgendered - it's really upsetting to him.

i'm a pretty protective person and i have a lot of friends who are trans*, genderqueer, or who otherwise don't fit gender norms. i tend to be pretty assertive about other people respecting the ids and pronoun choices of all the people in my life (and sometimes that means having to be patient and explain or educate, which i don't like having to do but i will). that means if someone i am with doesn't id as male and is perceived as male, i would politely try to correct or remind the other person that they are or support the person i am with doing that, if they are comfortable addressing it. same with if the person i am with is perceived as female and doesn't id that way, or ids as something else altogether. i respect the choices of the person i am with too...i know it's not my "job" to swoop in and save anyone - but i also know that for a lot of my friends it's helpful to have allies who will step in and correct people or say that's not okay, so they don't always have to be the ones doing it.

i'm the same way with my partner. i will correct people and confront them if they try to start any shit about it, although i try to respect that he worries about my safety and doesn't want to put me in a situation where that might lead to things being unsafe.

[girl_dee]

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

for *me* i don't like it. i want to be a visible femme with my female butch partner.

[Hack]

What is always interesting to me when I am called "sir," which I don't mind at all, btw, is when the person goes to correct him- or herself, they immediately say, "Oh, it was the haircut." I just nod and grin and assure them, "It's ok." But I always think...you had time to study my hair and assume I am male (and that's cool), but what then tipped you off I wasn't? Maybe I should start asking.

Hmmmm.

[princessbelle]

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?




My partner is a she, is identified as a she and is referred to as a she. But, really, it's not about me and what i feel. It's about how my partner feels.

If someone mistakenly called her he (which i've never seen happen) she would be the one to straighten them out. And rather quickly i would think.

If for some reason she couldn't speak, i would be happy to straighten them out. I wouldn't have a problem doing that either. :readfineprint:

[BullDog]

I just had an incident tonight which kind of made me chuckle, since we are talking about this today. I went into a convenience store today to use the ATM machine and buy a couple of sodas. As I was walking in the door there was a man ahead of me, he looked back, I figured to make sure I had the door. Then he looked back a couple more times and just stared and stared. I think he was trying to figure out which box to put me in, lol.

[Corkey]

I just had an incident tonight which kind of made me chuckle, since we are talking about this today. I went into a convenience store today to use the ATM machine and buy a couple of sodas. As I was walking in the door there was a man ahead of me, he looked back, I figured to make sure I had the door. Then he looked back a couple more times and just stared and stared. I think he was trying to figure out which box to put me in, lol.



Ami stares back at them and will yell Boo! LOL stops them dead in their tracks. They often plow into other things n people, it's hilarious to watch!

[starryeyes]

for *me* i don't like it. i want to be a visible femme with my female butch partner.

I agree. It's a pride thing. I do not want to be seen with a man, but as a femme lesbian with a butch female partner and I will correct if my partner doesn't. Lol :-D

[Parker]

I just had an incident tonight which kind of made me chuckle, since we are talking about this today. I went into a convenience store today to use the ATM machine and buy a couple of sodas. As I was walking in the door there was a man ahead of me, he looked back, I figured to make sure I had the door. Then he looked back a couple more times and just stared and stared. I think he was trying to figure out which box to put me in, lol.

Oh god, the staring .... I sometimes wonder if they realize how rude they are being by staring or if they are so preoccupied with wondering "what" I am that they dont even notice their behavior.

[jac]

Not to highjack....

I am grateful that Stoney is so gracious, patient and kind about how people experience who Stoney is. This is not easy nor is it Stoney's job to be so patient with folks. People don't get it quickly when gender presentation isn't binary. I have experienced that my friends want to be respectful and use the right "pronoun" and even understand. And the patience gives them space to formulate their questions. I find questions can lead to understanding.

Specifically related to Stoney... my experience of hym is that hy values people getting to know hym. The pronoun matters not. Hy lets people get to know hym and expresses (looks, says, dresses, etc...) as hymself with out reservation.

Now of course I use hy when referencing Stoney on the planet but that is what we've talked about.

I was sleeping but woke with this post in the forefront of my mind and wanted to elaborate on it a little bit.

I absolutely appreciate that my Spritz sees it as not my "job to be patient with folks." In some ways I totally agree and in other ways, I like to think that I do have a role in being patient and educating others with something they don't understand or are struggling with to accept. I'm a rather complex individual, ya know, and even knowing me personally requires one to understand me wholly.

I can be a rather sarcastic person but, for the most part, it's in play and with those that already know me. Those that can appreciate my sense of humor. Or at least tolerate it. If someone on the street looks at me with a questioning look/stare I don't take offense, I just smile to ease the tension and confussion. If it persists I greet them with hello and go about my business. This is the person they need to see and appreciate... Me, the kind and respectful individual that acknowledges them for being an active member of my day.

I believe that everyone is brought into our day for a reason. I also believe that prior to coming to this Earth plane it was agreed upon that I and you, and you and you (generalized) would have our interaction and it would go in such n' such a way. Lessons will be learned. You, the individual, will be an asshat and I will deal with it... because without this interaction how am to know and appreciate a more loving and respectful interaction if I don't know the opposite. (Guess this is all for another thread.... sorry... rambling)

Anyway, should someone question or ask about who I am and why I am and what, and where, and when and and and... I answer their questions... with compassion. And if I walk another block and it happens again... I answer again and again and again. It truly doesn't bother me for people to question and ask... and nine times out of ten they walk away satisfied with the answers and a smile on their face as I say to them - have a nice day!

It's really just that simple...

[QueenofSmirks]

Ami stares back at them and will yell Boo! LOL stops them dead in their tracks. They often plow into other things n people, it's hilarious to watch!



LMFAO!

.....

[Mrs Arcstriker]

Arcstriker told me about this thread but was afraid to post to it after our last flap...

That said, and I can speak for my husband...he doesn't WANT to pass as male, it just happens. He cannot help who he is anymore than I can help who I am. In the end, we both just want to be judged by our character.

I love that he passes as male, because that is what turns me on...but make no mistake about this...I KNOW exactly who he is and how he was born, and that just makes him sexier to me.

[Bard]

I know what I am I am a woman a strong Butch woman yes I get the stares at time and get called sir and don't get me started on the bathroom issues lol I scare little old ladies... My daughter however does not find it funny she has been known to stamp her little foot and say "that's my MAMA" and the guys I work with get very upset when we are in a stop or dealing with a suspect and they call me sir.. they are protective :fastdraq:

[Syr]

I do not consider myself male at all. I am called Sir often in stores etc. funny but not funny story. I was in Montreal at a hospital as my brother was dying. Went to the washroom, yes, the ladies room :) i startled an elderly lady who was in there. I finish my business, exit washroom to be grabbed by a cop. He speaks french, I speak english. It finally becomes clear to me that he is informing me he is arresting me for being in the ladies washroom. I'm thinking this is a bad fuckin' joke. I guess I was under a little stress because I snapped. I told him he was a f??? Idiot and promptly pulled my shirt off to expose proof that I was a woman. Asshats!

[Bleu]

I was sleeping but woke with this post in the forefront of my mind and wanted to elaborate on it a little bit.

I absolutely appreciate that my Spritz sees it as not my "job to be patient with folks." In some ways I totally agree and in other ways, I like to think that I do have a role in being patient and educating others with something they don't understand or are struggling with to accept. I'm a rather complex individual, ya know, and even knowing me personally requires one to understand me wholly.

I can be a rather sarcastic person but, for the most part, it's in play and with those that already know me. Those that can appreciate my sense of humor. Or at least tolerate it. If someone on the street looks at me with a questioning look/stare I don't take offense, I just smile to ease the tension and confussion. If it persists I greet them with hello and go about my business. This is the person they need to see and appreciate... Me, the kind and respectful individual that acknowledges them for being an active member of my day.

I believe that everyone is brought into our day for a reason. I also believe that prior to coming to this Earth plane it was agreed upon that I and you, and you and you (generalized) would have our interaction and it would go in such n' such a way. Lessons will be learned. You, the individual, will be an asshat and I will deal with it... because without this interaction how am to know and appreciate a more loving and respectful interaction if I don't know the opposite. (Guess this is all for another thread.... sorry... rambling)

Anyway, should someone question or ask about who I am and why I am and what, and where, and when and and and... I answer their questions... with compassion. And if I walk another block and it happens again... I answer again and again and again. It truly doesn't bother me for people to question and ask... and nine times out of ten they walk away satisfied with the answers and a smile on their face as I say to them - have a nice day!

It's really just that simple...

Thank you, that was truly beautiful to read.

[BullDog]

There are a lot of great posts, awesome conversation!

Like Parker said, one of the main reasons many butch women do want to be seen as women is because when we are not, our type of woman is invisible. There are many ways to be woman and we would like that to be seen. You can't control how someone is going to perceive you and that's ok, but we stretch the definition of what woman is and can be. Many of us also do want to be treated as women because that is what we are.

I don't really have the issue of passing as male and I am happy about that. If people do think I am, it is usually just a temporary mistake. If someone calls me sir at the grocery store or something I don't tend to correct them, I just let it slide.

Sometimes kids will ask me if I am a boy or girl (they tend to use that rather than man or woman). I will smile and say girl. You see them thinking and that makes me smile. They don't really care either way, they are just curious. If they do call me he and we are friends, I don't correct them. They find their own way just fine.

I do agree with Kelt that I would prefer our society wasn't so rigidly gendered. Why does it matter if a store clerk says ma'am or sir? Why do we have to have an F or M on our driver's license? Why do people get so extremely uncomfortable if they can't tell right away if someone is female or male?

[Rockinonahigh]

No I do not wish to be thought of as a man,i'm just being me and wearing clothes that I feel best in.Yes i'm a masculine butch woman that often gets called sir a lot,no it dosent bother me because often people take a second look then I get sorry mam with a red face,or they sort of stutter with confuson.Going to the bathroom is a trick cause I often get the look like i'm in the wrong place..I just go on a take care of buisness,wash my hands then out the door I go.
Now haveing said this I will say in certain circles if I had said this out loud or on the site I would have been blasted then called out for it.Admitting you were a butch woman and not wanting to be seen as a male wouold have been sacriligouos(sp?.sorry)

[Words]

I agree. It's a pride thing. I do not want to be seen with a man, but as a femme lesbian with a butch female partner and I will correct if my partner doesn't. Lol :-D

I don't necessarily like being invisible as a queer either.

Thing is, when it comes to pride, I have so much pride in my butch and the way in which Hy carries Hymself/responds regardless of how people perceive Hym that that kind of outweighs the fact that by referring to Hym using masculine pronouns, they are somehow erasing my identity.

Make sense?

Words

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't necessarily like being invisible as a queer either.

Thing is, when it comes to pride, I have so much pride in my butch and the way in which Hy carries Hymself/responds regardless of how people perceive Hym that that kind of outweighs the fact that by referring to Hym using masculine pronouns, they are somehow erasing my identity.

Make sense?

Words


Thank you!!!

Femme is not defined by who I am fucking, it's my Gender:)!

[Daywalker]

When I realized that the reaction by a portion our own Community to
folks who 'pass' is to immediately default to male pronouns, I had to
examine myself at that time. Why? Because I was one of those in
the 'portion'. Fast forward a few years and see me crediting all of
you for helping me see why that was not so groovy and now
I use that to educate others.
:LGBTQFlag:

A reply I gave to someone who continued to default to he/hy for Butches:


"...but why do you call them he/hy to start of with. By doing this,
you're taking away from them not only their visibility as Butch
Women, but you're also removing the beauty of the
fact that they are women who love other women."

:daywalker:

[starryeyes]

I don't necessarily like being invisible as a queer either.

Thing is, when it comes to pride, I have so much pride in my butch and the way in which Hy carries Hymself/responds regardless of how people perceive Hym that that kind of outweighs the fact that by referring to Hym using masculine pronouns, they are somehow erasing my identity.

Make sense?

Words

I totally get your point, and totally respect it! We are all different here with totally different perspectives, and that is what I love about this place.

Justin and I both totally label ourselves as 100% lesbian women, so the accidental "male" label doesn't sit well with us. We are women, and we are proud, and they will be corrected either by Justin or I, whichever is convenient. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to be "invisible", or having an erased identity. It is a pride thing. I am proud to be a femme lesbian on my female identified butches arm, and you will see me as one because it is who I am. You will see her as a butch because that is what she is and you will see us as a couple because we are fucking beautiful! <3

Hugs.

[Jaques]

As someone who has gone through the mill for a lifetime before transitioning, I spent a lot of my childhood wanting people to assume I was male when I looked very feminine. Now I look male and ive come through most of the "stuff" I can now concentrate more on living the kind of life where others views on my gender arent relevant

[NorCalStud]

I am not aware of a desire to be seen as a man. And I definately do not have a desire to be seen as a woman. I dont mind it but Im not burnin up to present an identity. I feel better being called "sir" than "mam". I can truthfully say mam and lady make me cringe like Ive been hit. Im being honest.

I like being seen as butch. I do not like the breasts and yet there is a part of me that wants them there doin what they do which is to say Im this person in this body and Im okay. I do like being seen as who I am for me and for the young butches coming up. Ive said it before..tho.....we are skeletons and spirit...that is how we are walking around. The other stuff is stuff

[Stronghealer]

I do not want anyone assuming anything about me-ask.
We are more intricate then our outsides.

[BullDog]

I don't like being called ma'am or lady either. My partner calls me Sir. I would prefer she would be the only one that does.

[Daywalker]

I don't like being called ma'am or lady either. My partner calls me Sir. I would prefer she would be the only one that does.

There are a few naybors here that call me Sir.

That is not an aesthetic call for them, lol...it's an energy they
pick up and when I ask if they're gonna get to
school on time...they answer 'Yes, Sir!'
:hangloose:

:daywalker:

[BullDog]

Most of the times I get called sir, ma'am or lady are in customer service situations and it doesn't greatly offend me, but it does seem to add to having to gender everything.

[Bard]

late at night a very drunk young man me and 2 of my officers talking to him trying to get his story now mind you I have my full duty uniform on that includes bulletproof vest.. it went something like this: me " look I know you have been drinking you need to stop giving my officers a hard time " Officer Bingo " so you need to give us you ID" Young man points to me and says " Shut up I want to talk to HIM" my officer becomes very angry and shakes his finger at drunk young man " have some respect can't you see my Corporal is a LADY" young man stopped and almost cried saying how sorry he was .. yeah I ended up wrapping him in a tarp {he had poopied his pants) and took his gross ass home he kept saying sorry finally I told him look I cut you a HUGE break do not have me called to your dorm for you tonight or I WILL arrest you

[Corkey]

I think the whole point here is that none of us wants anyone to assume our identities. 'Cause boy howdy that assumption can get one in some deep doo doo. Sorry Bard had to...

[BullDog]

late at night a very drunk young man me and 2 of my officers talking to him trying to get his story now mind you I have my full duty uniform on that includes bulletproof vest.. it went something like this: me " look I know you have been drinking you need to stop giving my officers a hard time " Officer Bingo " so you need to give us you ID" Young man points to me and says " Shut up I want to talk to HIM" my officer becomes very angry and shakes his finger at drunk young man " have some respect can't you see my Corporal is a LADY" young man stopped and almost cried saying how sorry he was .. yeah I ended up wrapping him in a tarp {he had poopied his pants) and took his gross ass home he kept saying sorry finally I told him look I cut you a HUGE break do not have me called to your dorm for you tonight or I WILL arrest you

Puts a whole new spin on things. Lady can be kick ass awesome!

[Parker]

I don't like being called ma'am or lady either. My partner calls me Sir. I would prefer she would be the only one that does.

Interesting - we are all so complex!

I never really minded ma'am - probably because even though I was enlisted, a lot of military folks use that as a sign of respect, so I got used to it - but I never really cared for lady (as in, ladies and gentlemen - I identify with the latter more than the former); and yeah, if my partner calls me Sir, that's different. :winky:

Also, I identify more as a daddy than a mom/mommy to my fur babies, which confuses people who know I am a woman and want to be seen as a woman - but I dont get offended if people call me mom when addressing me about my babies or when talking to my babies about me - it means they see me as a woman :) ..... I guess it's why being female and masculine at the same time can sometimes fuck with my (and other's) head.

[Kelt]

You all have got me thinking more about this business of how folks address each other and I have had a couple of new thoughts. Mostly about this business of when and why we and others seem to feel a need to assign gender at all.

Still forming the thoughts so it may be a little rough around the edges.

Some of this might go back to era and social class norms. Back when…I'll pick 1940's out of a hat. People behaved more formally with each other, gender and professional titles were used as a form of etiquette and an indicator of station in life, sometimes instead of a name, e.g. "Welcome Judge", Hello Dr.", "Reverend Smith", "Chairwoman of the committee". At the time people also dressed much more strictly along gender lines (mostly) so that if someone of a different class (lower) needed to address someone and did not know their title the default was something like "May I take your hat Sir" or "Help you with your bags Ma'am?" Kind of like the customer service model mentioned earlier.

Some of this, at least out in public, may be hold over language from when we spoke differently and it just won't die yet. I was also thinking about some other areas of communication, for instance in writing. Not that long ago pretty much all writing in business and personal began with "Dear so and so," and ended with "Sincerely". Now with emails, texts, and tweets, that has mostly become much less structured.

Maybe some of what I have been experiencing has been hold over etiquette in our language. Maybe I've been getting my boxers in a twist over something that I'm just making bigger in my own mind. Most of, if not all of the time it seems that those who get it wrong are not doing it on purpose, not trying to insult me. Yes I have been harassed intentionally in the past, but that is not what I'm talking about here. It bothers me a lot that every thing and person seems to be labeled with a gender. But maybe if I turn it around and look at it from the other side, we/they/us just haven't modified our language as quickly as our appearances and societal behavior.

Frankly, it used to be much easier at a glance to put most folks in an easy to define checkbox in our minds. My presenting in a less-boxable way causes confusion in some of the people that I meet. It was mentioned earlier that children are sometimes the best (thanks Bulldog), they just ask if I'm a boy or a girl, (if you want to screw with the parents, just answer loudly; "Both!"). I guess my point is that uncertainty makes people uncomfortable, by being visibly different I have the opportunity to expose them seeing something possibly unexpected and the next time they have the chance to get it right.

Yep, still ticks me off. Trying to see different angles though.

Hmmm……:thinking:

[QueenofSmirks]

It was mentioned earlier that children are sometimes the best (thanks Bulldog), they just ask if I'm a boy or a girl, (if you want to screw with the parents, just answer loudly; "Both!"). I guess my point is that uncertainty makes people uncomfortable, by being visibly different I have the opportunity to expose them seeing something possibly unexpected and the next time they have the chance to get it right.

Yep, still ticks me off. Trying to see different angles though.

Hmmm……:thinking:

You might also consider that the parents are enlightened beings, and wouldn't be "screwed with" by answering "both!". My friend is bisexual, and although she's explained to her 10 yr old daughter that people can love whomever they want, and that she likes both "boys and girls", the fact remains that her daughter is 10. She said to us, one night at dinner, something like "if that boy liked that other boy then he'd be a lesbian.". So, obviously she was in the ballpark, but it's probably not all crystal clear to children of that age range,regardless if their parents are dense or whether they completely "get it" and try to pass on those enlightened values to their children.

[Kelt]

You might also consider that the parents are enlightened beings, and wouldn't be "screwed with" by answering "both!". My friend is bisexual, and although she's explained to her 10 yr old daughter that people can love whomever they want, and that she likes both "boys and girls", the fact remains that her daughter is 10. She said to us, one night at dinner, something like "if that boy liked that other boy then he'd be a lesbian.". So, obviously she was in the ballpark, but it's probably not all crystal clear to children of that age range,regardless if their parents are dense or whether they completely "get it" and try to pass on those enlightened values to their children.

Touche`:)

Just shooting for a little humor. No offense intended.

[QueenofSmirks]

Touche`:)

Just shooting for a little humor. No offense intended.

None taken. I just wanted to make the point that not everyone out there is a complete dumbass, although there are days and weeks where it certainly seems like they are!

[Quintease]

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

The only time I was with someone female-gendered who enjoyed being mistaken for a man, was also the time I was with someone who held quite misogynistic views, so no, I wasn't great about it.
As for my other partners... Like someone else has said it didn't make me comfortable as a/ my partner was being misgendered and not generally very happy about it (tho sometimes amused) and b/ I wanted to be recognised and seen as a lesbian and c/ It really annoys me that your regular person on the street is so gendered in such a disrespectful and blind way. You are muscular with short hair? Then you must be a male with tits. Long haired and slender? Clearly a woman with stubble. It's so ridiculous. As gay people we make an effort to actually look at people, yet those people out there don't bother. It's too easy to dump their own assumptions on us.
[/rant]

[EnderD_503]

I guess this question is hard for me, lol.

First of all, I kind of wish we lived in a society where people didn't assume other people's sexes and/or genders. So, no, people shouldn't assume...because maybe I might look one way, but identify another. And it should only be up to the individual person to identify themselves.

But like others have said in the thread, I think that most people just want to be recognised as their identities. If someone identifies as female chances are they want to be recognised as female. If someone is genderqueer they probably don't want people assuming they are either male or female.

I'm a transguy and also identify with male id'd butch. There's a lot of narrative in the trans community about passing and being "stealth." A lot of transguys feel it affirms their maleness to blend in and be assumed as a cisguy, and if they like women then they think it affirms them as men to pass as a straight couple. I don't really feel that way. Because I'm not a cisguy and I'm a queer guy into queer women. Being assumed a cisguy doesn't affirm maleness...my transguyness affirms my maleness...as does my queerness. Being assumed straight wouldn't feel affirming to me either. I guess I'm torn because as much as I have never felt female/woman and never identified as female/woman, I also can't say that I'm a cisguy and at this point I'm actually happy to have been born a transguy and not a cisguy. I want to "pass," but I want to "pass" as a transguy :p ...somehow recognised as legitimately male without people assuming all the shit that they usual assume when they hear "male." Meaning certain genitalia as well as certain experiences, attitudes amongst other things.

So yeah I want people to assume that I'm a guy in my daily life...but I wish that somehow society recognised different types of guys in a positive way. It also gets more complicated than that when sharing experiences and personal histories.

It kind of reminds me of that transguy recently who volunteered to become the leader of a breastfeeding group. He had borne his own child and was breastfeeding his own child and participating in the breastfeeding group. He had the opportunity to become the leader of the group and suddenly all hell broke lose. The media/society making fun of him and making a circus out of it, other transguys turning their backs on him and asking "why you would want to be the leader of a breastfeeding group when you're a guy," and so on and so forth. But people just generally have trouble seeing him as both a guy and someone capable of giving birth and breastfeeding...who should have the right to lead a group like that as much as anyone else who has the experience of breastfeeding their kid.

So I think that brings up the issues of the complications that arise when you assume anything about a person. Yeah many transguys want people to assume they're guys (as it seems this guy does, too), but what does that mean? Their experiences as certain people with certain experiences, histories, physical capabilities and so on seem to conflict for many people with being read as male.

There's a lot of baggage that comes with assuming someone's sex/gender...and I wish there wasn't. That I could be assumed a guy without people assuming shit about my life, my body, my attitudes towards my body and my experiences.

[Jaques]

I just had an incident tonight which kind of made me chuckle, since we are talking about this today. I went into a convenience store today to use the ATM machine and buy a couple of sodas. As I was walking in the door there was a man ahead of me, he looked back, I figured to make sure I had the door. Then he looked back a couple more times and just stared and stared. I think he was trying to figure out which box to put me in, lol.

,,,,,im glad you chuckled, so many people butches and transguys get angry when people stare or do a double take - i just see it that if you look different (in any way) or people arent sure what to make of you, people are naturally curious, staring is rude of course but before I passed as male, lots of people stared and i just used to smile back because i understood.
I had one incident where a guy actually stopped me and told me when I was very much looking like a woman in a suit and tie, which i never wear now, he said "you look fabulous" - which was a lovely thing to say and i appreciated it at a time when I was trying to find my way in the gender confusion I was experiencing - I used to wear suit, tie and - wait for it - "makeup"!!! Dont you just love the mascara...lol!
http://http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh634/gj2go/1078.jpg

BIG DIFFERENCE NOW- no suit and NOOOOOOOOOO makeuphttp://http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh634/gj2go/JaquesBilly.jpg

[Dude]

The older I get, the more I am sir'd.
I do not like it
but I don't like the alternatives either.
I think it's possible to engage with people
without using either pronoun and just be polite.

I have to admit I do like the mind-fuck area
better than blending. Queers do see me and I
relish that.

I'm not quit sure what it is about freeways but I enjoy some
good cruising action ,stuck in traffic, at times. When the
eyes are on me , I wonder if these women know what I am.
Are they straight , could they be femme? It's not like it's going to
go anywhere. Their eyes met across a crowded freeway and.... :sigh:


I had a strange thing happen at work yesterday. Two male co-workers
and I were talking and one commented about a female co-worker really needing to
get some ( as in get laid.) He then quickly said he was not giving IT to her.
It was like I was not even there.
Then it dawned on him , that I was right fucking there growling and ready to
insult the hell out of him.
He said oh you heard that right? I said I sure the hell did and may have
angrily flounced away. If only I could flounce better I could be mistaken
for a gay man which would somehow feel better to me, than a straight one.

> Edited to add: this is not to say that all gay men flounce but I would likely be a flouncer. If I could choose:]

There will be an incident report filled out by me. How can I not, really?
I'm so Sick of working with bozo 's . It's 2012, pull your head out already.

[Ginger]

I had a strange thing happen at work yesterday. Two male co-workers
and I were talking and one commented about a female co-worker really needing to
get some ( as in get laid.) He then quickly said he was not giving IT to her.
It was like I was not even there.
Then it dawned on him , that I was right fucking there growling and ready to
insult the hell out of him.
He said oh you heard that right? I said I sure the hell did and may have
angrily flounced away. If only I could flounce better I could be mistaken
for a gay man which would somehow feel better to me, than a straight one.

> Edited to add: this is not to say that all gay men flounce but I would likely be a flouncer. If I could choose:]

There will be an incident report filled out by me. How can I not, really?
I'm so Sick of working with bozo 's . It's 2012, pull your head out already.


I work in a potentially sexist environment where the men in my immediate area sort of tiptoe around me on their best behavior. When my boss is inappropriate, I put him back in his place and document it, but it takes a toll on me.

I often feel like I have no one to really "talk to" at work, though my work is respected.

I miss working in literacy, with more social-justice minded folks. I think that feeling of being alone has been exacerbated by the conditions of my relationship. I'm moving out, and looking for an apartment. In fact I'm on the computer tonight going back and forth with a real estate broker.

But I'm not out yet. And feeling alone at work as well as home, has been hard. One good friend at work would make a huge difference. When I read your post I thought, Damn, I wish she worked where I work.

[WintergreenGem]

I have a question and I am only asking because I truly do not know or understand:

How does a transguy pass as a transguy and not a straight guy? (Sorry if that is worded wrong.) I really want to get a visual/understanding on this. Thanks. GG

[Glenn]

Sorry I can't help you GG. I'm still trying to understand why a bio male, would want to pass as a butch, but who also is a male identified butch, and not a gay guy, who wants people to assume their a female identified butch, and not trans.

[Dude]

Sorry I can't help you GG. I'm still trying to understand why a bio male, would want to pass as a butch, but who also is a male identified butch, and not a gay guy, who wants people to assume their a female identified butch, and not trans.

I have read this thread forward and in reverse in search of the
bio male you "might" be speaking of.
Not found.
If you are talking about someone in this thread ,it might be a nice touch to quote them and ask them directly.

[Angeltoes]

If I tried to pass I would probably be perceived as a 9-year-old boy, but I do not care about my partner 'passing' personally. My relationship would be with the person not the rest of society.

[Corkey]

Sorry I can't help you GG. I'm still trying to understand why a bio male, would want to pass as a butch, but who also is a male identified butch, and not a gay guy, who wants people to assume their a female identified butch, and not trans.

My only thought was, huh?

[ruffryder]

What do you think people perceive Thomas Beatie to be, a man? Well he is, even if he is getting impregnated. He is ready for his fourth child and says if his current g/f can't have the child, he will again. I just have to wonder what people assume about this. . or even Chaz when he went on Dancing With the Stars. There are those that love these people for who they are and coming out and sharing their lives with the public, then there are others who do not agree with the whole lifestyle or say they aren't men. I am actually glad there are trans like this out in the community to enlighten people that they are men too. I know this is a butch thread but I wanted to share this to show that men come in all variations and men come from identifying as lesbian and then as butch also (in Chaz's case). I think when it comes to identifying as male-identified butch and trans man it does have to do with the word man and instead of "assuming" people should just embrace. That includes all the gender identities on the spectrum.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/757953/thumbs/r-THOMAS-BEATIE-PREGNANT-MAN-CHILDREN-large570.jpg

[starryeyes]

Sorry I can't help you GG. I'm still trying to understand why a bio male, would want to pass as a butch, but who also is a male identified butch, and not a gay guy, who wants people to assume their a female identified butch, and not trans.

Kinda off topic but I watched a show on NatGeo or something about Transfolk where they featured a section of the straight male population that want to transition into the butches. Also, in Ivan Coyotes new novel, I believe I read some stories written by a few of these transfolk. I never knew of this population. We are a very diverse world, we are!

[Parker]

I have a question and I am only asking because I truly do not know or understand:

How does a transguy pass as a transguy and not a straight guy? (Sorry if that is worded wrong.) I really want to get a visual/understanding on this. Thanks. GG

You might get a better answer and a better understanding of trans guys if you asked this in a trans thread and/or in the trans zone.

Here, we are making a concerted effort to discuss butches who may or may not pass as male, whether they are trying to or not, and whether they find these assumptions ok - so you may not find an answer to your question in this particular thread. :)

[WintergreenGem]

You might get a better answer and a better understanding of trans guys if you asked this in a trans thread and/or in the trans zone.

Here, we are making a concerted effort to discuss butches who may or may not pass as male, whether they are trying to or not, and whether they find these assumptions ok - so you may not find an answer to your question in this particular thread. :)


Thanks Parker. I will do, I only asked after I read a post in the thread. Sorry.

[Parker]

No apology necessary. :)

[Maverick]

This whole topic is extremely interesting to me as I am in the midst of struggling with my own gender issues. As it stands now I certainly expect that people will recognize me as female as that's the body that I am in. How could they possibly know how I feel inside? That said, there is an occasional sir from people who only catch a quick glance and don't take the time to notice the whole person. I don't get offended at all and usually don't say anything unless it's important that they know I'm female (like at a doctor's office). In the past, I have gotten upset with people for seeing me as male but I attribute that to my own internal conflict over the issue...not theirs.