Butch as an umbrella of presentations

[Fanbutch]

Do you feel that butch is a single way to act and dress, or a grouping of ways?

[aishah]

what do you think?

[girl_dee]

Yes, tell us what you feel.

[Lady Pamela]

In my opinion,
The answer to that question is certainly not if butches are being compared to each other.
And the answer is yes if they are being compared to a femme...of course


Butches come in all forms,styles, and dispositions.

People may personally define BUTCH seperately depending on personal prefrence.
But that does not make other styles or forms of Buth any less valid.


Just saying.


.

[Fanbutch]

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

[The_Lady_Snow]

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XVSRm80WzZk

[Tony]

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XVSRm80WzZk


Haha Lady! I was sorta feeling the same but prolly for a different reason.

[Gráinne]

Only you define who you are. It doesn't matter what "they" say you are, or what a butch is, or anything. There's a real freedom when you decide not to listen to the "thems" in your head.

[KayCee]

To be or not to be, that is the question! lol...


ps: Idk..is it just me..I'm kinda receiving strange vibes here...AGAIN!

[Bard]

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XVSRm80WzZk

thinking the same think when I first saw the thread but I figured I was just being a jerk :canoworms::canoworms:

[dreadgeek]

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Many years ago, when the world was young, a crusty old butch gave me some great advice which was this: 'butch is a label, wear the label don't let the label wear you'. I took that to mean that I shouldn't ever let myself be constrained by the idea that I can't do 'X' because 'butches don't do X'. The things I do, alpha geek that I am, are butch because *I* am doing them. That means that if I get giddy as a schoolgirl because Steven Pinker or David Sloan Wilson have just released new books, so be it I'm still a butch getting excited because two of her favorite authors have new work out. If it means getting into high-nerd happiness because I just saw something interesting in my telescope or the vet let me go to the backroom to look at the sample they took from my dog, then butches do that as well.

If you wear bright colors then butches wear bright colors because you identify as a butch and do so. While there's a spectrum of butch such that in most circles, if a group of people 'in the life' were to walk into a room and someone said "woo! look at that butch over there!" everyone would probably look in the same direction there is a point, ineffable as it might be, where people wouldn't look at the woman wearing a dress with her hair coiffed like she'd just stepped off a 1940s film noir set. What that point is, I don't know but as a practical matter it exists because we all have some idea of what the other person means when they use the word 'butch'.

You are butch because you identify yourself as a butch. The things you do are butch because you are doing them. Butch is just a label, wear the label proudly, don't let the label wear you.

Cheers
Aj

[firegal]

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XVSRm80WzZk

My favorite show! I have the dvd collection!

Thanks for making me laugh OUT LOUD! at work...:hangloose:

[SugarFemme]

I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing. I hate the fact that we have to feel "en guard" right now.










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XVSRm80WzZk

[Toughy]

this poor kid picked the wrong day to start a thread like this........laughin...

Aj said it very well with this statement:

You are butch because you identify yourself as a butch. The things you do are butch because you are doing them.

Who ever said bright colors are not worn by butch folk....looking in my closet....mmmmm.........only 2 white dress shirts and a whole bunch of dress shirts of many different colors and probably 40 ties to match all those colors.....

I giggle. I cry. I laugh. I can act like a fool.

I do not like or feel comfortable in feminine clothing.....lace, frills, short skirts, prom dress, gown.....I will not say that an article of clothing without legs (a skirt/sarong/kilt) is strictly for girls cuz I know some Maori and Scottish men who would kick my ass up into next week.

I do not bind

It makes me nuts when folks are afraid to say they are butch just because they have and express their emotions or because they pick a particular style of clothing....

[CherylNYC]

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Hello Fanbutch, and welcome. One of the butchest butches that ever walked the earth was a huge fan of bright colours. In fact, it was rare for Woody to wear anything other than bright colours. If you want to see a picture of Woody wearing something very bright and gay to match her rainbow mohawk, look up 'dyke' in Wickipedia. Yes, my good friend Woody was so butch that they illustrated the word 'Dyke' with a picture of her leading the NYC Pride Parade down 5th Ave on her vintage /6 BMW. We all miss her terribly, but it's nice to visit her inspiring photo on Wickipedia. Woody also looked great in a tux, and she could rock the heck out of a seersucker suit.

I hope you aren't too confused by the seemingly odd answers that some of the other Planeteers posted in response to your question. You showed up just as a very annoying person with a fake ID, who took up a tremendous amount of attention with her pestering questions, was being shown the door. One of the queries from the false poster sounded a bit like your innocent and legitimate question.

Once again, welcome.

[CherylNYC]

Drat! I just revisited Woody's infamous Wikipedia pic, and she's wearing a black tank top. What you can't see is her pair of awesome rainbow shorts. I know she was wearing them because I have so many other pics of her from that day that show her bright clothing. She loved her neon coloured tailcoat, and the crayola cummerbund that looked so good under her leather tailcoat.

Anywho, I'm with Aj and Toughy. Be who you are, and do as you please. No one else gets to tell you how to be you.

[Kobi]

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.



Ok what is a rom com?

[aishah]

Ok what is a rom com?


romantic comedy. also know (*cringe*) as a chick flick.

[Kobi]

romantic comedy. also know (*cringe*) as a chick flick.



Oh ok. I was thinking like comic-com for romulans.

[ruffryder]

ayyy dios mio, santa maria, y nino! hehe.


hello Fanbutch. Are you a fan of butches? There is lots of threads here regarding butches. I say start there! Butches is definitely a grouping of different ideas and folks! :)

[mariamma]

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

[Toughy]

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

Ok................shaking my head..........

People.......individuals ARE NOT HORMONES! Nor is there ANY scientific basis for you to draw that conclusion.

Femme is NOT defined by attraction to butch women or babies. And you just lumped sexual attraction in with babies........ick. But I will let the femmes have at you over that little statement.

Twin-spirited sounds a whole lot like two-spirit which is an Indian (aboriginal/indigenous) concept found in many tribes in North America and across the world. 'Scientists' have long spent hours trying to define concepts in western terms that have NO place in western thought. I'm sure the two-spirit folks will appreciate you defining them by western pharmacology and thought.....but then there is nothing new about that, as it's been going on in the Americas for at least 400 years. Damn white people sure do like to appropriate non-western, non-white culture..........

[princessbelle]

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

I cringe really for quoting you because you can't prove or disprove a real negative. Even though cis men and women do have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, it ebbs and flows and is not a constant.

So, saying that femmes or butches harvest or maintain a constant of more than one or the other is not exactly true.

I am a femme because i was born that way. Has nothing to do with who i am around cis men or butch women or FTMs ect.

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme.

No one and no gender and certainly not one steady or unsteady hormone determines who i am.

I just am.

[mariamma]

I cringe really for quoting you because you can't prove or disprove a real negative. Even though cis men and women do have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, it ebbs and flows and is not a constant.

So, saying that femmes harvest or maintain a constant of more than one or the other is not exactly true.

I am a femme because i was born that way. Has nothing to do with who i am around cis men or butch women or FTMs ect.

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme.

No one and no gender and certainly not one steady or unsteady hormone determines who i am.

I just am.





Don't let me define you. It doesn't feel good.

[girl_dee]

please don't let google define who you are either.

[princessbelle]

Don't let me define you. It doesn't feel good.

You don't define me. Neither does how much estrogen, or other hormone i have in my body at any given time or lack thereof.

[Daywalker]

It's a self Identifier, it's an energy, it's not a definition.

And.

It's a Gender Identity, not always indicative of ones Sexual Identity.
Example ~ no one makes love 'like' a Butch, they make love 'as' a Butch.

:sparklyheart:

Just like any other 'group' folks choose to Identify with, no one person
can be the epitome of that group. That's the beauty of it that
folks forget to stand proud in appreciation of...our Diversity
as folks who include Butch in our list of Identities.
:yeahthat:

:weedsmoke:

:daywalker:

[mariamma]

Ok................shaking my head..........

People.......individuals ARE NOT HORMONES! Nor is there ANY scientific basis for you to draw that conclusion.

Femme is NOT defined by attraction to butch women or babies. And you just lumped sexual attraction in with babies........ick. But I will let the femmes have at you over that little statement.

Twin-spirited sounds a whole lot like two-spirit which is an Indian (aboriginal/indigenous) concept found in many tribes in North America and across the world. 'Scientists' have long spent hours trying to define concepts in western terms that have NO place in western thought. I'm sure the two-spirit folks will appreciate you defining them by western pharmacology and thought.....but then there is nothing new about that, as it's been going on in the Americas for at least 400 years. Damn white people sure do like to appropriate non-western, non-white culture..........

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

[macele]

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme. -- princessbelle


i have to add this to my quote collection. that's a first time i've heard that. made me laugh. good laughing. thanks.

[CherylNYC]

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

@mariamma- First of all, Fanbutch has requested female pronouns. Second, I wouldn't call your concepts modern in any way. In fact, pontificating about the alleged correlation beween estrogen and femmeness, and testosterone and butchness, is backwards enough to be really offensive. I try not to read your posts on this subject, but they've become harder and harder to avoid.

While I've never been tested, it's clear to anyone with eyes that my testosterone levels are on the high end of the female scale. That has NOTHING to do with me being femme. Unless a person is intersex or has adrenal hyperplasia there is NO way to correlate hormone levels with butchness or femmeness. Your simplistic outlook is kind of horrifying, and certainly insulting. Please stop.

[Parker]

I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

.... or her.

[DapperButch]

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

Actually, studies have shown that some biological females that define as male have higher levels of testosterone (than the general female population), but this does NOT hold true for biological females who define as female who have same sex relationships. I am assuming the people that you are calling butch women define as female.

EDIT: Just read Cheryl's post...agreed

[Martina]

Welcome to the site, Fanbutch.

[Parker]

Many years ago, when the world was young, a crusty old butch gave me some great advice which was this: 'butch is a label, wear the label don't let the label wear you'. I took that to mean that I shouldn't ever let myself be constrained by the idea that I can't do 'X' because 'butches don't do X'. The things I do, alpha geek that I am, are butch because *I* am doing them. That means that if I get giddy as a schoolgirl because Steven Pinker or David Sloan Wilson have just released new books, so be it I'm still a butch getting excited because two of her favorite authors have new work out. If it means getting into high-nerd happiness because I just saw something interesting in my telescope or the vet let me go to the backroom to look at the sample they took from my dog, then butches do that as well.

If you wear bright colors then butches wear bright colors because you identify as a butch and do so. While there's a spectrum of butch such that in most circles, if a group of people 'in the life' were to walk into a room and someone said "woo! look at that butch over there!" everyone would probably look in the same direction there is a point, ineffable as it might be, where people wouldn't look at the woman wearing a dress with her hair coiffed like she'd just stepped off a 1940s film noir set. What that point is, I don't know but as a practical matter it exists because we all have some idea of what the other person means when they use the word 'butch'.

You are butch because you identify yourself as a butch. The things you do are butch because you are doing them. Butch is just a label, wear the label proudly, don't let the label wear you.

Cheers
Aj

this poor kid picked the wrong day to start a thread like this........laughin...

Aj said it very well with this statement:



Who ever said bright colors are not worn by butch folk....looking in my closet....mmmmm.........only 2 white dress shirts and a whole bunch of dress shirts of many different colors and probably 40 ties to match all those colors.....

I giggle. I cry. I laugh. I can act like a fool.

I do not like or feel comfortable in feminine clothing.....lace, frills, short skirts, prom dress, gown.....I will not say that an article of clothing without legs (a skirt/sarong/kilt) is strictly for girls cuz I know some Maori and Scottish men who would kick my ass up into next week.

I do not bind

It makes me nuts when folks are afraid to say they are butch just because they have and express their emotions or because they pick a particular style of clothing....

Hello Fanbutch, and welcome. One of the butchest butches that ever walked the earth was a huge fan of bright colours. In fact, it was rare for Woody to wear anything other than bright colours. If you want to see a picture of Woody wearing something very bright and gay to match her rainbow mohawk, look up 'dyke' in Wickipedia. Yes, my good friend Woody was so butch that they illustrated the word 'Dyke' with a picture of her leading the NYC Pride Parade down 5th Ave on her vintage /6 BMW. We all miss her terribly, but it's nice to visit her inspiring photo on Wickipedia. Woody also looked great in a tux, and she could rock the heck out of a seersucker suit.

I hope you aren't too confused by the seemingly odd answers that some of the other Planeteers posted in response to your question. You showed up just as a very annoying person with a fake ID, who took up a tremendous amount of attention with her pestering questions, was being shown the door. One of the queries from the false poster sounded a bit like your innocent and legitimate question.

Once again, welcome.

I just wanted to jump on the bandwagon of these posts because I am tired so anything I post may not be very coherent. :winky:

These folks hit the nail on the head quite nicely - if you feel that you are butch (or a butch), then you are; and this means that everything you wear, eat, watch, do, love, etc., is something a butch would wear, eat, watch, do, love, etc., because you are butch (or a butch) .... like a neat little circle.

And hey - welcome to the site. :)

[Martina]

I have to say that if I had the money, I would go to this nurse practitioner in Sacramento that some friends go to. She does hormone balancing. I don't understand it. But they have felt a lot better since going. It's observable how much better they are. So . . . who knows?

She is godawful expensive though, and my cats seem to want to eat everyday. They are unreasonable like that.

[girl_dee]

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Yes it is baffling that you mention binding on this day. But here it is.

if you feel like a butch then you are one. No one can take that from you no matter what you wear or what you do. If you feel like a butch, you are!

Now rejoice!

[Angeltoes]

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Mostly I think of butch as a dominant personality type, but that's just the type of butch I prefer. It can mean something totally different to others. Of course that person should have complexity and depth and even quirkiness. Outside of a hook-up that should be welcomed. If whoever with you're with objectifies you and doesn't accept you as a complete individual, then personally I think you should strive for better.

[Corkey]

A butch is. Period.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Submissive/bottom butch?

Still BUTCH

Dominant doesn't belong to one gender...

[Martina]

Mostly I think of butch as a dominant personality type

You should meet some of the femmes I've dated and/or been in service to. Oh my.

[Angeltoes]

You should meet some of the femmes I've dated and/or been in service to. Oh my.

I'm just speaking for myself. :blush:
And like I said, it can mean something totally different for others.

[SugarFemme]

Why is it when people don't agree with someones (ridiculous, not based on fact) theories, the "modern concepts" are thrown around?? Because something is allegedly "modern", those of us who don't agree or call bullshit on it are accused of being "upset" by it?? Just because you say it's a modern concept, does NOT make it fact. Just because you accept them as YOUR truths, do not make them THE truth. You say that this is not, "the place to argue about my beliefs", so we are just supposed to accept what you say whether we agree or not?




Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

[Corkey]

1. If hormones make the butch, or femme, then anyone who has had a hysterectomy would not fall into the "modern concept". Science can no more tell from someones hormone levels what their gender identity is than knowing if there is life on other planets. Gender is between the ears not the legs.
2. Dominance is no more a Butch fact then a Femme fact. It is as individual as the many identities on any spectrum.
3. If someone starts a thread based on nothing more than a sentence and does not clarify, they will get a multitude of answers from folks all over the spectrum, and we all have our opinions. But scientific facts are facts and google is not now or has it ever been a place for clear scientific fact.

I don't presume to know what the OP was thinking, it isn't clear, but I'll wait for clarification.

[Toughy]

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.


you define me..................big ole snort..........

you certainly do like the western paradigm regardless of your gene pool......

nothing you spout off about is modern nor is it fact, so stop pretending you are some kind of intellectual and scientifically knowledgeable.... as you said....these are your notions and beliefs....and despite what the Republicans would have you think notions and beliefs are not facts.

[yotlyolqualli]

Wow.

Mariamma...

You and I have our own set of beliefs that can be pretty damned unpopular. I don't believe as you do and thats OK. But this.... this is pretty fucking sad. I can't believe that your INTELLECT is being attacked because you shared your beliefs, your opinions.

For that, I'm sorry. I had thought better of us. I'll now have to rethink that.

Take care.

[Corkey]

My rep to Toughy is not an acknowledgment of her words to whom she posted, but I really have a herd time with folks trying to tout BS as science. As for me, I acknowledge Toughy's humor in speaking for herself. Presumptions are sometimes putting cart before horse.

[Rope]

As a native American, I just HAD to google twin-spirit. A semi-copting of the term Two-Spirit, the term LGBT native Americans use to describe themselves. For many of us, Two-Spirit is a calling/vocation and not just a way to describe queer or our sexuality but rather our spirituality because THAT is the TWINS we're referencing. Before I googled it and followed any link though--here's what I thought I'd find: white people offering a retreat in which you can find your "twin spirit" self and of course, charging money for it---I wasn't disappointed, that's just what I found. Probably the same people that market dream catchers to hang from your car rearview mirror.

So as not to totally derail this thread---the umbrella of butch is long and wide. You can be a vegetarian, long haired, dull colored-dress wearing, Republican and still call yourself butch. Key word, call YOURSELF butch--it is not something any of us can tell you that you are or not. You will meet femmes that say to you, 'you're not butch enough' or OTHERS that say, 'this is how butches should act/dress/be/etc.' and somehow you will come out of it the butch you were meant to be provided you can throw off the shit of what others say and be you in all your butch glory. Additionally, you won't CARE what others say, because as Popeye says, 'I am what I am and that's what I am'.

Rope--

[OS Butch]

This Butch loves to wear pink polo shirts:) Yep, I do:) What I did discover though, my slacks are mostly black or navy blue...So the next pair I bought were khaki ...That is tan, right?

[dreadgeek]

This Butch loves to wear pink polo shirts:) Yep, I do:) What I did discover though, my slacks are mostly black or navy blue...So the next pair I bought were khaki ...That is tan, right?

The *only* downside to being married to a serious foodie is that I have two salmon polo shirts that no longer fit me about the belly. I love those things and, quite honestly, didn't think I'd ever like pink.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

As a native American, I just HAD to google twin-spirit. A semi-copting of the term Two-Spirit, the term LGBT native Americans use to describe themselves. For many of us, Two-Spirit is a calling/vocation and not just a way to describe queer or our sexuality but rather our spirituality because THAT is the TWINS we're referencing. Before I googled it and followed any link though--here's what I thought I'd find: white people offering a retreat in which you can find your "twin spirit" self and of course, charging money for it---I wasn't disappointed, that's just what I found. Probably the same people that market dream catchers to hang from your car rearview mirror.

This. So much this. A billion years ago during the explosion of New Age appropriating of Native American culture I had a roommate who kept trying to get me to adopt some aspects of Native American spirituality because she said I 'could be' part Native. That may be the case but since I don't know anything about where my genes come from (adoptee) I can't say I am so it's not my culture. I also feel too Western to really feel comfortable appropriating African culture. My skin is brown but I'm not African. But that's another topic for another thread.


So as not to totally derail this thread---the umbrella of butch is long and wide. You can be a vegetarian, long haired, dull colored-dress wearing, Republican and still call yourself butch. Key word, call YOURSELF butch--it is not something any of us can tell you that you are or not. You will meet femmes that say to you, 'you're not butch enough' or OTHERS that say, 'this is how butches should act/dress/be/etc.' and somehow you will come out of it the butch you were meant to be provided you can throw off the shit of what others say and be you in all your butch glory. Additionally, you won't CARE what others say, because as Popeye says, 'I am what I am and that's what I am'.

Rope--

Back when I turned thirty, I asked my friend and boss at the time what the difference was between forty and thirty. She looked at me and said, "somewhere right around forty you develop an utter failure to give a good goddamn what people think of you". At forty-five, I'm much more comfortable in my butchitude than even ten years ago. I'm me, nerdy butch. Everyone wears butch their own way, we all have different ways to swagger, and no one can take that away from us. We can't even really give it away.

Cheers
Aj

[blush]

Wow.

Mariamma...

You and I have our own set of beliefs that can be pretty damned unpopular. I don't believe as you do and thats OK. But this.... this is pretty fucking sad. I can't believe that your INTELLECT is being attacked because you shared your beliefs, your opinions.

For that, I'm sorry. I had thought better of us. I'll now have to rethink that.

Take care.


We see it differently. But for me, if someone makes an outrageous claim (such as: I saw an alien), it requires equally outrageous proof (such as: I have the alien over there). Trotting out google or whatnot as evidence of my alien visitation is not convincing enough evidence for the claim I made.

As a community, it is our obligation to question, defend, and define ourselves. If we don't, others will. Now, I don't give a rat's ass if someone takes a shine to that worn out theory about the hormones. It's their prerogative. But it heartens me to see so many responses that question the outrageous-ness of the claim.

[Bèsame*]

In my mind..

This umbrella is huge, like the one you find at the beach. You would be surprised at how many butches can squeeze under it. Lucky for us, there are no two alike under it :)

[AlexHunter]

Hey there, Fanbutch! How 'bout them... Braves? O.o

It seems people have already stated my sentiments: the definition of butch is subjective and up to personal interpretation - this would mean that for me, it's an umbrella of presentations.

I've recently been incorporating more bright colors into my wardrobe... and I'm proud of it! Black, white, gray, and the occasional green or red were the only colors I wore for years. It's been exciting to wear colors like burgandy and indigo and yellow and, yes, even pink. When I was younger, I was absorbed with the idea of being society's idea of an acceptable "butch," but - to quote Ivan E Coyote (in "A Butch Roadmap") - "(We) are a rare species, not a stereotype."

I love clothes shopping. In fact, I love it so much that I've actually used it in place of something therapeutic during times of tragedy. I don't think this makes me less butch. It's not my primary method of consolation, but even if it was, it wouldn't revoke my butch card. I (like most of us) was raised being forced to wear "girl clothes" ; as soon as I could buy "guy clothes," I... think I went buck wild and never went back.

I'm going to take things a step further and say I like wearing my clothes on the tighter side. I'm rather slim and slightly tall; baggy clothes look ridiculous on me. I am assumed male most of the time and have been told people either think I'm a hipster, a rock band singer, or a twink when I'm in my casual wear. I like to incorporate the formal with the casual as much as possible.

So yeah, I preen. I watch what I eat and cut my own hair, too. I also own a remodeling business, drive a big truck, am on the hunt for a motorcycle, know a little bit about vehicular restoration and repairs, drink beer and shots almost exclusively, am sexually dominant, usually dislike "rom coms" (but I definitely dig the term you invented), always felt more like one of the guys than one of the girls, shave my face, bind, sometimes pack, and only date femmes.

The last paragraph represents things that might make other people call me butch - NOT the exact traits or sentiments of butches who are not me. I define myself as butch because I feel it is a term that suits me, both in its meaning of masculine and its place in queer history. I also define myself as butch, in part, because of the dynamic I like sharing with femmes.

What I'm trying to say through sharing my personal experience is: be your own definition of butch. If "butch" is a term you want to claim for yourself, do it. Own it. Rock it proudly and look damn good doing it... bright colors and all.

[jac]

I don't need someone, society or the community to define me as butch. I am as butch as I am because I say that I am. Is one butch more defined than another? Not hardly. If I say I am an artist who chooses to draw/sketch but not paint... am I any less an artist? Nope.

[Daktari]

Everyone wears butch their own way, we all have different ways to swagger, and no one can take that away from us. We can't even really give it away.

Cheers
Aj


This. This is all that needs be said on the matter.

Many folks will repeat it in their own words no doubt.


Ta ever so much for posting this Aj. :chaplin:

[Dude]

In my mind..

This umbrella is huge, like the one you find at the beach. You would be surprised at how many butches can squeeze under it. Lucky for us, there are no two alike under it :)

Welcome!

I think this post should be quoted over and over again.
Just as femmes , are all very different , so are we.