Is the Confederate Flag Racist?

[Jackhammer]

This discussion was brought up in another thread and in light of not derailing the thread, the original question has been moved here.


I just want to know: on what "Planet" is the Confederate flag NOT racist?

I consider it to be racist. As an owner of this site, The Planet considers it to be racist.

This is where I should include a warning: Confederate flags are NOT allowed in sig lines, avatars, or the gallery.


I am, however, interested to hear discussion from folks who don't think the flag is racist. Tell me where you are coming from.

[IrishGrrl]

I agree!!! On what planet would the NAZI flag NOT be racist either??


Glad we live here and not there!


xo

[Just_G]

Oh, it is sooooo racist!

[Apocalipstic]

Both the Confederate and the Swastika existed before and separate from WWII and the Civil War.

However, they have come to be perceived as Racist, Violent and Vile because of how they were used, and as such need to be avoided.

The actual flags are just pieces of cloth, but they carry a horrible message.

[RNguy]

I agree, the confederate flag represents fighting to keep slavery.
I work as a trauma nurse, and I had a patient transfer to me in my unit.
When we get a trauma patient we all jump in together and tag team to get the admission stuff done quickly.
We stripped the guy down and started cleaning wounds up etc.. ( the guy was in a car accident, blood alcohol level through the roof and positive for benzos and opiates ) when we took his shirt off there on his entire chest was a confederate flag tattoo with the writing above it stating " if the south would have won we would have had it made ". I thought to myself, what a moron and how absurd is a statement such as that.
One of my coworkers who came in to help was african american gal 6ft 1in, 375lbs, I felt so bad that she came in to help with this patient and sit there looking at his chest with the tattoo and writing.
She laughed though and said " lord someone take a stick and beat the stupid right out of this boy " that made all of us laugh.
We thought it would be funny for him to wake up with her standing over top of him and say Hi, my name is XX i'll be your nurse taking care of you today, as she is holding the fattest needle she could find. So, the next morning, he was a bit more alert, and she is standing over his bed with her arms folded and said just that. His eyes were HUGE, and I think he was sweating it a bit.
But yes , I agree that the confederate flag is very racist.
I had to share that little story in the process bc thats what I thought of when I saw this thread.

-RNguy

[SuperFemme]

The Confederate Flag is a hallmark of the Neo-Nazis.
That is all.

[Diva]

The actual flags are just pieces of cloth, but they carry a horrible message.


This says it all for me.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Jack,

You are so right about the Confederate Flag being racist. I live in MD. I see oodles of them on the back of pickup trucks, SUVs, and such in sticker form. It just makes me sick. I am not far from where the KKK are still quite active. You have to be very careful about who you talk with and what you say. You never know who knows who, and what can happen.

[NJFemmie]

I agree. It is racist.

[dreadgeek]

A quick story about the Confederate flag:

Years ago, when I lived in the Bay Area, I went to a memorial concert in Golden Gate park for the music promoter, Bill Graham. EVERYONE was there, the Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Los Lobos, BB King and Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Tom and the Boys got up, started into their set and out of the roiling crowd a Confederate flag was raised. They stopped, mid-song and Tom said that either the flag disappeared or they wouldn't play another note.

The flag disappeared. :) I've loved Tom Petty since Full Moon Fever but that day, he became more than just a musician to me--he became an hero.

Is the flag racist? No, the flag is a piece of cloth. Does it represent racism? Yes. I have heard all kinds of justifications for why it isn't...that the South was fighting for 'freedom'--but it was freedom to preserve their 'way of life' which included keeping people who I am genetically related to as property and, although this is not a particularly popular opinion these days, there are ways of life that we should NOT be sanguine about, no matter where or when they are practiced. Slaveholding is one such way of life. It may have been the culture of the South, but that means that the culture of the South was wrong. After slavery, the flag came to represent segregation and the belief that blacks were inherently less human than whites. I have seen no reason to believe that this has changed one bit in the last century.

Cheers
Aj

[Daywalker]

When I moved to TN, I saw more confederate flags than I cared to.
Not just TN, but a couple of the bordering States as well.
:dots:

Long lonely strips of highway, and outta nowhere on the top of a hill...a huge
confederate flag is blowin' in the wind. It gave me MUCH pause. It also made
me grateful NOT to break down in an area that obviously still flew
such a message so proudly.
:hanging:
Then there was the one day that I was waiting for mah crew to get to work,
standing in the back lot havin a smoke...and in comes a Jeep flying through
the lot...with the back window covered in a Confederate flag. What got me
was, the person driving the Jeep was a Gender Queer Boi that I had hired.
:eek:

I was really really curious to know what made her/hym think that the flag
had any semblance to 'Proud American'...cuz where I come from, that just
is not the case. Now we are back in California, I have yet to see one flying
'proud' anywhere. Not sure what the message is today, but to me...it still
stands for Racism.
:angry:

I'm wondering if there IS any other 'meaning' to that flag nowadays?
Anyone?

:deepthoughts:


:usa:<<<mah flag

:daywalker:

[MsDemeanor]

This is where I should include a warning: Confederate flags are NOT allowed in sig lines, avatars, or the gallery.

Thank you.

[Apocalipstic]

There is a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the creator (founder?) of the KKK surrounded by maybe 10 confederate flags right on Interstate 65 South of Nashville. (have not counted the flags in my nausea)

I am mortified every time I drive past it, it makes me sick at my stomach hoping that visitors don't think the city placed it or that everyone here agrees with it. It is apparently on private property and nothing can be done about it.

It's horrifying.

[evolveme]

Symbols are the tools we utilize to carry/convey meaning. Sometimes meaning is purposefully and intentionally applied to its symbol; other times, meaning becomes attached to its symbol by way of association. There are rarely more powerful symbols than a state or nation's flag, outside of religious iconography.

In the case of the Confederate flag, no one can dispute that America's history of African slave trading and usury in primarily, but not exclusively, the Southern states generated some powerful symbolic meaning. The flag would eventually become saturated with the symbolism of slavery. This cannot be disputed. For some, it may still hold a relevance regarding ancestry and heritage, but so do landscapes, tools, antique furnishings and even the confederate uniform and hardly anyone looks at these items and feels the dark sense of racism imbued so deeply and inexorably as into the Rebel flag.

Listen: the Southland is my home. I get feeling a sense of pride; I understand a longing for symbolic references to our heritage. But if those symbols come at the price of slander and political, even spiritual, offense to an entire population of people whose own ancestors suffered unnecessarily (and not that long ago), then I wonder whether it's worth it.

No, I don't wonder. I know it isn't.

[Daywalker]

There is a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the creator (founder?) of the KKK surrounded by maybe 10 confederate flags right on Interstate 65 South of Nashville. (have not counted the flags in my nausea)

I am mortified every time I drive past it, it makes me sick at my stomach hoping that visitors don't think the city placed it or that everyone here agrees with it. It is apparently on private property and nothing can be done about it.

It's horrifying.

I think I saw that...when we got lost...LOL
:sailing:

And of course, we were low on gas...but I kept going until the last drop
of fuel was consumed and the imagery of that was long gone.
:seeingstars:

:daywalker:

[Apocalipstic]

I think I saw that...when we got lost...LOL
:sailing:

And of course, we were low on gas...but I kept going until the last drop
of fuel was consumed and the imagery of that was long gone.
:seeingstars:

:daywalker:


I wonder how many people have that reaction. I am so sorry you guys had to see that.

[Boots13]

The Confederate flag and it's history, it's representation of a repugnant way of life, has no room in my life.

I consider myself to be a tolerant person...but in the realm of violence,
bias and oppression, I have Zero Tolerance...whether it's hoisted out of deliberate action or waved out of
ignorance does not matter. It has no place in my world, or better stated, on my planet !

[Daywalker]

I wonder how many people have that reaction. I am so sorry you guys had to see that.

Slight derail, but first of all...it is not yer fault.

And folks who have driven past it for years and still allow it to
stand...those are the folks I am sorry for...yes?
:vigil:
Second of all...the Rocky Mountain Chocolate Factory
Imagery...rawked all the negativity outta the park!
:eatinghersheybar:

:chocolate:

:thumbsup:

:daywalker:

[Hudson]

I just remarked to someone in conversation that Nathan Bedford Forrest was the first grand wizard of the KKK (definitely not its founder). Upon researching this to check myself, I just found out that a biographer says he was not and that Forrest himself denied formal membership (on trial) and that it really can't be proved. What is known however is that when the organization became too violent, he ordered it disbanded.

I wonder if memorials throughout my home state (TN - there's also a park in Memphis where I used to live) and others might have been erected in this honor or because of his achievements as a war hero, rather than his ownership of slaves or his (alleged) involvement with the KKK, because with over half a million members throughout the south, that would be no unique 'honor'. As for the statue in Nashville, no one likes it because well, it's oversized and overall a pretty creepy rendering.

[Hudson]

I wonder if those of you who have seen the statue in Nashville could agree that ironically such an unflattering caricature is better suited as a put-down than what its 'artist' (presumably) intended. At least that's how I choose to see it. Again, symbols and what meanings we apply to them.

As William Faulkner once said, 'the past isn't'.

[WolfyOne]

There is a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the creator (founder?) of the KKK surrounded by maybe 10 confederate flags right on Interstate 65 South of Nashville. (have not counted the flags in my nausea)

I am mortified every time I drive past it, it makes me sick at my stomach hoping that visitors don't think the city placed it or that everyone here agrees with it. It is apparently on private property and nothing can be done about it.

It's horrifying.


I think someone should go have a TP Party on Nathan and the flags or picket the place until it comes down.

[HoneyChile]

When I was small, my great grandfather's "right hand man", a self identified Black man and the husband of the then love of my very insular, very small, and very short life, Betty, let me touch a tattered "piece of cloth" he kept in his breast coat pocket.

"You mustn't forget this, girlie. It's who we all are, where we've all been. Things was different then. Things are different now. The nature of things, it seems to me, is to be different. Things are seldom exactly right but they are hardly ever all the way wrong. People forget that."

Betty caught us talking and made a fuss. He called her a "hissy kitty" and we had our dinner.

I was much older before I learned that his I-forget-great-or-grand father had died in the service of the Confederate Army. The flag had been his. He had once been in the forced service of my (insert appropriate number of greats, I do not know them offhand, though my great aunt certainly would have, she took her DAR and UDC connections quite seriously) grandfather, alongside whom he served the Confederacy.

"Some things are worth dyin' over." was the last thing Mr. Henry had said to me that day.

("Men don't know a thing about being dead, honey, surely not enough to calculate its worth." was Betty's sharply delivered opinion.)

I understand that pieces become symbols for wholes. I understand that pieces of a whole can be lost. I understand that history, a hundred and some years removed, is more than the sum of its parts.

No, I do not believe that the Confederate flag is racist.

I believe that people are racist.

I believe that in Pratchett's Nation, a little English girl draws an invitation to tea for a little boy who speaks no English. Her careful palm tree landmark, the rendering of the sun for time, the stick figure boy, the arrows defining the way to the wrecked ship on which she makes her home. He decodes it to himself. "When the sun is just above the last tree left on Little nation, you must throw a spear at the big wrecked canoe".

I believe symbols are easy, icons are simplistic, and genuine understanding can be as rare as rubies on trees.

I believe it's dangerous to gift a symbol, be it the swastika, the flag, or the Bible, with anthropomorphic meaning.

I believe it is dangerous because it waters down the reality of human involvement, the necessity for an evil to exist in human context.

I believe it is simply too lazy to point to slavery, slaveholders, and enslavement economies for racism's example, too simplistic to use the Confederate flag to represent the "half that had it wrong", too patted-self-on-back-til-arm-broke making a fuss over the corrected appearance of a thing when the core of it is still wrong, wrong, wrong.

I believe I shall never fly a flag patterned after Mr. Henry's "piece of cloth". (I am aware that it means something, and perhaps something else again, for other folks. I am not intentionally unkind, abrasive, incendiary, or hurtful, though I manage rather nicely sometimes without any intent at all.)

But I will remember that it meant so much to him that he carried it in his pocket every day of his adult life, and that he had tears in his eyes when he showed it to me.

I tried to keep it short, but that appears beyond my limited ability - all apologies extended in advance,
Mme.

[evolveme]

I wonder if those of you who have seen the statue in Nashville could agree that ironically such an unflattering caricature is better suited as a put-down than what its 'artist' (presumably) intended. At least that's how I choose to see it. Again, symbols and what meanings we apply to them.

As William Faulkner once said, 'the past isn't'.

I can't know, but I want to believe that upon being commissioned, the artist decided to make a little magic. This ridiculous looking piece doesn't need toilet paper, man.

It's fucking hilarious.

[Waldo]

Realize I'm not a history buff and school was never my strong point. I may have been out drinking in the parking lot when they covered this, but it's always been my understanding that the "Confederate Flag" was a battle flag for the Southern Union. That the Civil War was about much more than the right to keep slaves. Economic, states rights, etc.

Realize also, that I understand that many racists fly the "Dixie Flag" as a proud sybol of their "heritage" - I'm also painfully aware that many racists dress themselves, their cars, their homes and their very souls in the Stars and Stripes.

Once upon a time pink and black triangles were used to mark queers as "defective" members of society by nazis. Yet we now proudly display these symbols.

/devils advocate

[Waldo]

I tried to keep it short, but that appears beyond my limited ability - all apologies extended in advance,
Mme.

It was only 577 words. You're under the limit.

[evolveme]

I believe symbols are easy, icons are simplistic, and genuine understanding can be as rare as rubies on trees.


Naturally, I loved the whole post (damn these Southern women writers!), but this I wanted to see again.

I love that it is true, and that it is simultaneously untrue. Symbology and its consequences can be complicated structures and deep seeding events. It's hard to know where meanings end or separate; impossible to designate where they begin.

And yes, it is true that flags cannot be racist, only people. But even cloth symbols are powerful tools. No less so than wooden crucifixes, maybe. Hardly less than certain powerful words.

[Selenay]

A symbol is useless unless it is imbued with meaning.

These letters, these words which form sentences, thoughts, ideas. . . We only recognize them as words because we give them meaning. A "T" is just two lines stuck together. A period, a dot.

It is the communal recognition that gives it meaning, that allows you and me to read these words as what they are.

And with all words, my meaning is different than is someone else's. To me, a confederate flag is just a flag with no more inherent meaning than the American flag, the gay flag or any other flag. People are racist, symbols are not.

[June]

It was only 577 words. You're under the limit.

And the sad thing is? I know you really did count them.

I am thinking about the anthropomorphic meaning part of what HC said, and how we do assign deep meaning to so many things. A heart, Triangle, Swastika, The US Flag and of course, the topic of our current discussion, The Confederate Flag.

My guess is that Mr. Henry would fall into a few different Minority categories if in fact, he loved the CF in the way it seems he did (Which is not to say that HC is not conveying what she *felt* and heard from him at the time). It does make me wonder if what he felt was more a familial love for it, being that it was passed down to him. Kind of like how I love the ugly vase that graced my beloved Grandmothers table. The one I cannot bring myself to get rid of because it belonged to her Grandmother too. When I touch it, I feel that sense of history and familial remembering and even, fondness.

If I think of the CF in this way, as a symbol of someones history, or familial ties, I can understand (a tiny bit better) why someone might cling to it.

However.

Given the initial birth of that flag, and the ongoing use of it as a symbol of White Supremacy, Hate Crimes, Separatism, etc. (All over the country!), it is more difficult for me (June) to reconcile why people continue to be so stridently protective of it. To be succinct: It makes most people feel bad.

I cannot properly conjugate anthropomorphic into a "tize" but pretend I am for the sake of discussion. The collective "we" have turned pieces of cloth into a symbol of unspeakable evils against the oppressed, whether we are for or against it, which is different to me than say, speaking on behalf of my dogs, which I do often and is also, unless I am mistaken, a form of anthropomorphic-ing.

When I, June see that flag on the back of a car, flying from a pole or on a piece of clothing, I make a judgement as to that persons character, or lack thereof because of what it means to me, because of how I have seen it used during my lifetime. For me, it is an overt symbol of racism. It is no different to me than someone proudly displaying a Nazi Flag on their front lawn.

Interesting to note, that the Swastika was originally (and still is!) a Hindu religious symbol that the Third Reich took a fancy to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[Waldo]

When I, June see that flag on the back of a car, flying from a pole or on a piece of clothing, I make a judgement as to that persons character, or lack thereof


a. Of course I counted them, but I used a program to. Duh.

b. re: above - you mean like how I judge grown women who carry Hello Kitty bags or have Tinkerbell decals on the backs of their cars?

Yes, yes, I know. I'm being a bastard. But I'm good for conversation. Some days.

[June]

a. re: above - you mean like how I judge grown women who carry Hello Kitty bags or have Tinkerbell decals on the backs of their cars?

Yes, yes, I know. I'm being a bastard. But I'm good for conversation. Some days.

a. I was unaware that Hello Kitty and Tinkerbell were or have become ominous symbols of oppression rather than simply, poor taste. (I personally have an ironic love of HK. Tinkerbell means nothing to me!)

b. You forgot the "Arrogant" prefix of Bastard as I have always applied it to you.

But, yes. All kidding and love aside, and I do love you, lest the good citizens of the Planet think otherwise, we DO judge others according to a myriad of inward and outward thing-a-ma-bobs.

So, let's break it down:

For you: Love of Hello Kitty & Tinkerbell = Un-Fuckable
For me: Love of Confederate Flag = Un-Fuckable

Okay, now I get it. I'm a visual learner and sometimes, it's necessary to *see* it, to get it.

[weatherboi]

There is a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the creator (founder?) of the KKK surrounded by maybe 10 confederate flags right on Interstate 65 South of Nashville. (have not counted the flags in my nausea)

I am mortified every time I drive past it, it makes me sick at my stomach hoping that visitors don't think the city placed it or that everyone here agrees with it. It is apparently on private property and nothing can be done about it.

It's horrifying.

We have a highschool named after that disgusting racist murderer. I have a close friend from highschool that has been working to have the name changed. The school board here is rough, old and set in stone. It has been voted on a few times now with no success.

[sharkchomp]

The flag is a symbol of southern heritage but what a sad symbol that is. Slavery. War. Separation. Racism at it's ugliest. Alot of people died over what that flag stood for, the nation was divided and families divided over it too. It's just sad to me.

~~~shark~~~~~~~

[Medusa]

My personal feelings:

As a Southern woman, (notice the capital "S") I have pride in my culture: Sipping sweet tea on the porch at sundown, swatting mosquitos, fried chicken, quilting, gardening, sticky buns, hair buns, mint juleps, Dorothy Allison, Johnny Cash, Maya Angelou, Bill Clinton, Chevy trucks, camping, fishing, snowy Christmases, a hearty people, wearing your heart on your sleeve, and Grandma.

Even those ugly-ass velveteen couches with the wagon-wheel motifs and the wooden arms and legs.

Even the over-zealous "flag-wavin', fun-lovin' crowd".

Even my Uncle, who was arrested for riding a horse while drunk through the middle of town.

Even country music (which I sometimes dance to but also sometimes throw up in my mouth a little over).

Those things are a part of my heritage. Even the ugly stuff. Even the racism. Why is the racism part of my heritage? Because Im a white woman in the South. Thats why.
Most Southern people that I know were raised on a healthy dose of racism with some good ole' sexism gravy on the side. Add in Uncle Fester the Child Molester and you've got a great combination of "heaping shitpile" to overcome if you ever want to live as a healthy, evolved person.
Even if I didnt have a great-great Grandfather who was one of those "grand cyclops" thing-a-ma-bobs for the KKK, I would still know now as a grown adult that racism doesnt always wear a white sheet.

Sometimes its knowing without ever having been told that bringing Dante Bryson home as a Prom date will, at the least, get your ass beat and at the most, thrown out of your Daddy's house at the age of 16.

Sometimes its being scared of the new girl in school because she is Asian and you've been told all your life that Asian folks "eat dogs and dont wipe when they use the bathroom".

Sometimes you stick your foot in your mouth or say racist things because you have a LOT of work to do.

But you gotta be willing to do it, nonetheless.

My point is this: As a white woman from the South, I would never ever feel ok having a Confederate flag on any surface of anything I owned. I also would not frequent a business that displayed one. I also would be one of those folks who would make a judgment on anyone else who did.

As a white woman from the South, I would also feel that showing pride in my Southern heritage by displaying a Confederate flag would be a gross display White Privilege and highly insensitive to the folks to whom the flag represents oppression.

[Waldo]

a. I was unaware that Hello Kitty and Tinkerbell were or have become ominous symbols of oppression rather than simply, poor taste. (I personally have an ironic love of HK. Tinkerbell means nothing to me!)

::snip::

So, let's break it down:

For you: Love of Hello Kitty & Tinkerbell = Un-Fuckable
For me: Love of Confederate Flag = Un-Fuckable


HK is oppressive to my ability to get laid! Is it really just me??

But I'm glad you broke it down with a chart. Very helpful.

xo Juney Pants

[Write14u]

Given the initial birth of that flag .....

I'm not picking on you June, but Hotprof did a nice breakdown on the origins of the confederate flag back on the other thread. Here's the link if anyone would like a history course on the flag itself.

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24024&postcount=40

The flag was a battle flag, concocted to look different than the Stars & Stripes. It wasn't concocted for hate. But as others have pointed out, it's about what we give meaning to, and yes, plenty of negative meaning goes hand-in-hand with the Confederate Flag.

Moving along...

This is a tough subject for Southerners to deal with, in some way. For one, most of us who grew up in the South have been exposed to the Confederate Flag all our lives. In all likelihood, even if you're smart enough to know better about flying it and offending people, then your cousin Billy down the road has one flying on his flagstaff. It takes time and education for things to change.
Simply calling someone an ignorant redneck doesn't do anything to bring about a change. Some things are so ingrained that it's unbelievable.

The South obviously has far more people who can be seen flying this flag, but it's all over the place. And as I said in a post on the other thread, racism is alive and well all over the country. I think Southerners are just blessed/cursed with the inability to keep their mouths closed and their opinions to themselves. They will tell you what they think, even if it's racist. When I've visited other parts of the country, I've witnessed a far quieter version of racism.

Apocalipstic made some great points about that in the other thread, as well:
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24562&postcount=79

I grew up in this culture. In regards to the CF, the bottom line for me became this: If a symbol had so much negative attacted to it and had the power to hurt that many people, then it wasn't anything to be associated with.

I do understand why some Southerners claim heritage when they talk about the flag. But I know there are for more people who use that flag to represent hatred and racism.

I can't condone displaying the flag for that simple reason.

[Dean Thoreau]

Everything on earth can be considered offensive to someone...I am sure there are places in this world when they see "old glory" they feel it is offensive and racist because of THEIR experiences and what it represents to THEM.

Personally I like confederate flags,,people that fly them wave their prejudice high and proud and dont try to hide it with a mask of " acceptance, or ignorance or political correctness" think of how much time my children of color could save when looking for jobs if they avoided the places that said: BIGOTS hiring here" Personally i like the nazi flag for the same reason ...and i get nervous when i see a neighborhood with lots of old glory's waving on the street..cause bluntly....it usually is a signal of a conservative neighborhood...just like i get nervouse when i see a bunch of elephant sitckers....vote for john mccain...or rush limbaugh fan club locations......

I am a proud American and I shall defend the right of every person in the USA to fly, burn, puke on whatever flag they wish to as long as they are the ones who own the land that it is flying on, or it is "their purchased flag" or completely affiliated with them.

If it is public property..then of course there needs to be rules...If it is privately owned property...like this website then the owners in my humble opinion have the right to deny anything from being hung, displayed on the "public portion of the site"..
If however one is displaying their "flag" in their signature line...if I were the site owner I would permit it as an expression of the members right to personal expression..cause once you go down the pathway as an owner of saying what is or is not racist or offensive .......when it comes to members signature lines...that slippery slope will put u right in with the CENSORSHIP that has become prevalent at other places. :2cents:

:kettlepot: <<<<<ok look at this why is there no phrase "Well thats calling the corningware white?"

[MsDemeanor]

this website then the owners in my humble opinion have the right to deny anything from being hung, displayed on the "public portion of the site"..
If however one is displaying their "flag" in their signature line...if I were the site owner I would permit it as an expression of the members right to personal expression..
Everyone can see the signature line. I'm interested in your definition of "public portion of the site". Mine is any portion that the public can see.

[Waldo]

If however one is displaying their "flag" in their signature line...



Dean, I want to thank you for reminding me that I can tick a box on my preferences page to block viewing signatures entirely. I'd all but forgotten this handy little feature but your signature burned my retinas. Good god, man!

[Jet]

Everything on earth can be considered offensive to someone...I am sure there are places in this world when they see "old glory" they feel it is offensive and racist because of THEIR experiences and what it represents to THEM.

Personally I like confederate flags,,people that fly them wave their prejudice high and proud and dont try to hide it with a mask of " acceptance, or ignorance or political correctness" think of how much time my children of color could save when looking for jobs if they avoided the places that said: BIGOTS hiring here" Personally i like the nazi flag for the same reason ...and i get nervous when i see a neighborhood with lots of old glory's waving on the street..cause bluntly....it usually is a signal of a conservative neighborhood...just like i get nervouse when i see a bunch of elephant sitckers....vote for john mccain...or rush limbaugh fan club locations......

I am a proud American and I shall defend the right of every person in the USA to fly, burn, puke on whatever flag they wish to as long as they are the ones who own the land that it is flying on, or it is "their purchased flag" or completely affiliated with them.

If it is public property..then of course there needs to be rules...If it is privately owned property...like this website then the owners in my humble opinion have the right to deny anything from being hung, displayed on the "public portion of the site"..
If however one is displaying their "flag" in their signature line...if I were the site owner I would permit it as an expression of the members right to personal expression..cause once you go down the pathway as an owner of saying what is or is not racist or offensive .......when it comes to members signature lines...that slippery slope will put u right in with the CENSORSHIP that has become prevalent at other places. :2cents:

:kettlepot: <<<<<ok look at this why is there no phrase "Well thats calling the corningware white?"


Good post with good points. Can't go with the Nazi thing though, grew up and was basically raised by second generation holocaust Jews (I'm very sensitive being a contributor to the Simon Weisenthal Foundation...so it's a no go with me.) You got guts, though. Frankly, I could give a shit what anybody does down here, having no affinity toward southern culture.

[Jet]

...yeah, i guess so.

[Bit]

:kettlepot: <<<<<ok look at this why is there no phrase "Well thats calling the corningware white?"

I thought at first you were kidding when you asked this, but then I realized everyone isn't into history, and probably even less into the history of cooking. The reason the saying is "pot calling the kettle black" is that it's an old old saying, from the days when all good pots, pans, skillets and kettles were iron. Iron cookware turned black with use; there was no way to make it any other color. Cast iron cookware still turns black after the first use. It has nothing whatever to do with racism, only with the physics of the metal.



ps to June--"anthropomorphize"

[June]

ps to June--"anthropomorphize"

See. Hudson was trying to tell me 'cize'.

Baby Girls Rule! Thank you, Bit!

ANTHROPOMORPHIZE

[Dean Thoreau]

Good post with good points. Can't go with the Nazi thing though, grew up and was basically raised by second generation holocaust Jews (I'm very sensitive being a contributor to the Simon Weisenthal Foundation...so it's a no go with me.) You got guts, though. Frankly, I could give a shit what anybody does down here, having no affinity toward southern culture.


Like I said jet..I figure if they are flying a nazi flag....then least they are honest aobut their prejudice and with that knowledge I can use it as a signal they may be honest aobut their hatred but I dont hafta become their friends, or do business with them.....
But I will defend the rights of all people..to fly whatever flag it is they want to fly...or burn..or wear......
Once we say...no u can not fly the.....flag or banner....then another one will be offensive and then another one and then another one..till the only one we are allowed to "fly" is the one the owners, the government,,,,the majority decides we may......


Ok now regarding the "pot calling the kettle black" yes I know where the phrase came form..unfortunately it is no longer looked in that way since very few individuals cook with cast iron....any longer......and since people do cook with corneing ware why is it we never came up with :
Well isnt that the corelle calling the corning ware WHITE!

Thats what we say in our house :goat:

[Hudson]

See. Hudson was trying to tell me 'cize'.

Baby Girls Rule! Thank you, Bit!

ANTHROPOMORPHIZE


mean.


------------

[BornBronson]

I am, however, interested to hear discussion from folks who don't think the flag is racist. Tell me where you are coming from.


Dear JH,I don't believe the flag is racist.Some people who display it might be though.Take where I live,in N.CA.Why just the other day someone drove right by me on the highway with the Confederate flag waving proudly in the back of his PU bed.I was disturbed by it because I knew in my heart that person was an asshole and was looking for a fight.I was thinking to myself that he'll probably find a fight(or worse) on his hands if he decides to hit any major highway near the city limits.Trust me.It doesn't look like that story was going to end nicely.Of course I won't feel the least bit sorry for him,he's asking for a good butt kick.But I will feel sorry for the person who might go to jail because of this idiot.

I don't believe that everyone who displays that flag Is a racist,I just don't.
That flag has a history,some good,some bad.It belongs to someone's culture.

Black people fought for that flag,so did some native americans.I knew a native american indian man who had ancestors fight for the south during the civil war.He gave me this Confederate flag with a native american man on it.Out of respect for your site I won't put it in the gallery or anywhere else on your site.I know emotions run deep.I did this on another site once,huge mistake.But it hangs in my office.And no,I am not a racist.It's there for sentimental reasons alone.

People have a right to fly the Confederate flag,but for peace sake,there is a time and place for everything.

Jesse

[Greyson]

I am not a Southerner, I am from the Land of dreams, movie stars, "diversity" and palm trees. I am also a person of mixed ethnic heritage. My surname is Latino/a and my mother's Irish American roots are in Missouri. A state that was divided. Missouri had both confederate and yankee soilders and sympathies.

I know there are good southern people, thanks to the BF community I have met many of them. I have also met straight up, straight talking, no politically correct nada, "rednecks."

It has been my experience that the racism of what the confederate flag represents for some is not limited to anti black folks. The racism seems to be anti anything or anyone not white.

When I was a child one of my mother's sisters married a man that was a member of the KKK, born and raised in Tennessee. He was also a child molester and a very angry human being. He had a perception of the world that I would not want. It takes a lot of energy to carry that sort of hate for a lifetime.

I can tell you from him and media images, I learned that I was hated and people like me just because of the color of my skin. It sounds simplistic to some but do not judge until you wear those shoes. I have spent much of my lifetime proving to myself and those that hated, feared POC that we are humans with hearts, dreams, brains, disappointments, humanity.

I went to the Bash in New Orleans. It was the first time in my life, I was in the South. Do some of you remember that there was a storm coming at the end of the weekend and many people were leaving town to avoid this storm? I could not get a flight out of New Orleans and headed North with my girlfriend at the time. The highway was congested and the hotels along the way were full. I saw quite a few confederate flags on the roads and towns as we made are way out of the Metropolitan New Orleans area. I was scared. I am not white, I was afraid to speak because at the time it would give away the fact that I was not a guy and was clearly a queer and a brown one at that. All things turned out okay but I did not do the talking. My girlfriend would talk to all of the hotel clerks, ecetera. I was happy when I finally reached the home of a family member in a larger metropolitan area of the South.

My point, for many of us the Conferate Flag is a symbol of pain, fear, danger. Do you have a right to feel differently, of course you do. But please realize, your reality is NOT the reality of others.

[NJFemmie]

Mare and I were driving home one night from the grocery store, and on the way home, a pickup truck with this huge confederate flag back window decal sped right past us. We both looked at each other and our eyes popped wide open - we didn't have to say out loud what we were thinking ... the dude was a racist of some sort. Was that wrong of us to think that? Perhaps. (We're from/living in New Jersey - we don't see much of that around here).

Yes, it's a flag. It's a flag that was originally meant to mean something different, but unfortunately, it doesn't anymore. As previously stated by many, it's a symbol of fear, racism, danger and a lot of pain for a lot of people. It doesn't just represent being anti-POC - but anti-everything that's not white or "right" by certain religious standards - homosexuality being included.

*I* don't like seeing that flag, just as much as I hate seeing the nazi flag.
To me, hate is hate. It has no room in "my house".

And yes.. a lot of things can be taken as offensive - but I don't see an uproar over the old saying "pot calling the kettle black". I am sure if this saying triggered the same emotional response as the confederate and/or nazi flag - then I am certain it would be addressed accordingly.

It is what it is, it's too deeply ingrained to be diminished.

[Daywalker]

When I fly the American Flag and/or
the LGBTQ flag...I do so with Pride and Intention.

:usa::LGBTQFlag::usa:

Do you think...there is intention of affliction upon others when
the Confederate flag is flown by others?

:daywalker:

[Sapph]

People have a right to fly the Confederate flag,but for peace sake,there is a time and place for everything.

Jesse


BINGO Bronson!

I read through ALL the pages of this post in the red zone, Snow and I discussed it off and on through the next day, and I've taken to heart everyones statements, both good and bad. I really try to bite my tongue and keep my "middle of the road" political view points to myself. I'm sure I'm going to piss more than a few people off, but will try to explain myself as clearly as possible to avoid misunderstandings.

I guess I should start of with alittle bit of background, since most of you don't know me at all. I was born and raised in a stereotypical small southern town in the backwoods of Louisiana. I know Klansman. I have met the Imperial Grand Wizard over the South (who's actually a really nice guy, despite his short-comings). I grew up with, and around the stereotypes of the south. We were raised with (as someone previously state *sorry I can't remember who*) a healthy dose of racism. You just knew that Mom and Dad werent going to be proud to see a non WASP walk through the door with you arm in arm. My family did own slaves, but they were family. My great-great-great grandparents worked side by side with them, took good care of them, when slavery was abolished they choose to stay with my family. Their descents are still in touch with our family, one of them helped raised me in fact. I openly embrace the term "redneck", and most of my friends own something that has the "stars and bars", as we refer to it, on it.

With this being said....
The Confederate Flag CAN be a racist identifier, but like most labels, it isnt always the case. There are lesbians here that have pride colored Confederate Flag stickers on their vechiles. Knowing the stigma the flag itself carries, we should try to be alittle more understanding to those around us.

For me personally though, I don't always deem it as an identifier for a racist. I see it more as a reminder of history. So many of the principles that went into that flag, also went into making me, me. It's a note to remind me to keep my head down, work hard to provide for my family, to take pride in what I do, to remember the family values passed down from generation to generation through my family.

I respect the descision to not allow it on the site, and agree with it infact. This is just my little way to possibly give a different perspective on what it means to different people. That everyone that flies the flag isnt always a big evil racist, that they are actually just 'good ole boys'.


Sorry if I got alittle long winded, or off topic, and my deepest apologies if I even slightly offended someone. This was not my intentions at all.

:farmshotgun:
Lin

[The_Lady_Snow]

Those good ol' boys are the boys who won't hesitate to take your ass behind the bar, in the alley and kick your ass to a bloody pulp for

A. Being brown and lookin at they girl the wrong way

B. Being a biggo dyke and lookin' at their girl the wrong way

C. Being a biggo dyke refusing their advances

D. Being the *boy* and I don't mean leather who thought they could have a beer.

E. Just being game for the night cause 6 Bud Lights later and hell we are bored fellas...

I believe it was them good ol kinda boys that dragged James Byrd behind their pick up truck...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Byrd,_Jr.

I mean after all, what's a good ol boy to do on a nice afternoon right??

[Sapph]

Theres good and bad in every society in this world. I haven't had any negative experiences, and my world is surround by them.

[NJFemmie]

Theres good and bad in every society in this world. I haven't had any negative experiences, and my world is surround by them.

It's wonderful that you haven't had any negative responses. Seriously. I wish we could all say that.

[weatherboi]

I suggest you do some reading because that flag is definitely a symbol of racism. If you want to think that to some it is not, then denial of white priviledge is an issue.

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/rebelsclue2.html

Hope you take the time to read and rethink!

Grant :mohawk:








Dear JH,I don't believe the flag is racist.Some people who display it might be though.Take where I live,in N.CA.Why just the other day someone drove right by me on the highway with the Confederate flag waving proudly in the back of his PU bed.I was disturbed by it because I knew in my heart that person was an asshole and was looking for a fight.I was thinking to myself that he'll probably find a fight(or worse) on his hands if he decides to hit any major highway near the city limits.Trust me.It doesn't look like that story was going to end nicely.Of course I won't feel the least bit sorry for him,he's asking for a good butt kick.But I will feel sorry for the person who might go to jail because of this idiot.

I don't believe that everyone who displays that flag Is a racist,I just don't.
That flag has a history,some good,some bad.It belongs to someone's culture.

Black people fought for that flag,so did some native americans.I knew a native american indian man who had ancestors fight for the south during the civil war.He gave me this Confederate flag with a native american man on it.Out of respect for your site I won't put it in the gallery or anywhere else on your site.I know emotions run deep.I did this on another site once,huge mistake.But it hangs in my office.And no,I am not a racist.It's there for sentimental reasons alone.

People have a right to fly the Confederate flag,but for peace sake,there is a time and place for everything.

Jesse

[Sapph]

Unfortunately not everyone can say the same things I have, and I understand this. The good ole boys are the first to get piegon holed, but its been my experience that many other races are quicker to jump on the band wagon of homophobia.

And as I said in my previous post, this has been my experience in life. It's not the easiest world to come out in, but it has made me into the person that people love and adore.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Theres good and bad in every society in this world. I haven't had any negative experiences, and my world is surround by them.

So FUCK how anyone else who has been harrased, lost a family member, hey how about them lil kids in Alabama who's church got blown up while they were IN IT..

I mean come on. the Imperial Wizard is a good guy, buys sweet tea and just does this for shits and giggles..

I want in on that country club!!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Unfortunately not everyone can say the same things I have, and I understand this. The good ole boys are the first to get piegon holed, but its been my experience that many other races are quicker to jump on the band wagon of homophobia.

And as I said in my previous post, this has been my experience in life. It's not the easiest world to come out in, but it has made me into the person that people love and adore.


Aww poor ol good ole boys being picked upon and misunderstood.. Do you see where here you smell of privelege.. I mean I know that your buddies who run around in the white sheets, well we just don't get them, poor guys...

It so hard being racist, mean and misunderstood..

Yeah, sad indeed.:computer::scorp:

[Corkey]

I'm too steamed to post my thoughts right now about the Native American on a confederate flag just now. Trust me I'll be back.

[Sapph]

So FUCK how anyone else who has been harrased, lost a family member, hey how about them lil kids in Alabama who's church got blown up while they were IN IT..

I mean come on. the Imperial Wizard is a good guy, buys sweet tea and just does this for shits and giggles..

I want in on that country club!!!!

I never said he was a "good guy" as you put it. I said he was a nice guy. There is a difference.

And I should hold it against every African American and every man in this country that a guy killed my cousin for being in the wrong place at the wrong time? People can claim labels till they are blue in the face, doesnt mean everyone who has uses that same label has the exact same ideas or mentalities.

[Sapph]

Aww poor ol good ole boys being picked upon and misunderstood.. Do you see where here you smell of privelege.. I mean I know that your buddies who run around in the white sheets, well we just don't get them, poor guys...

It so hard being racist, mean and misunderstood..

Yeah, sad indeed.:computer::scorp:

A good ole boy and a Klansmans are two completely different things. That would be like saying a butch and a FTM are the same thing. They are not.

[Daywalker]

Feeling no pain...feeling special...surrounded by the white sheets,
blood stains removed by the discount bleach.

Real special.
:|

See, but special in one world ain't so fucking special in another.

One must experience all worlds before declaring their own Supreme.


:daywalker:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I never said he was a "good guy" as you put it. I said he was a nice guy. There is a difference.

And I should hold it against every African American and every man in this country that a guy killed my cousin for being in the wrong place at the wrong time? People can claim labels till they are blue in the face, doesnt mean everyone who has uses that same label has the exact same ideas or mentalities.


Why paint me black and blue and call me silly, for thinking they are similar.. I mean really what was I THINKING that the Gran Pooba of Imperialism and Hate against my kind.. I mean gosh willikers, what's a lil hate amongst friends yes?

I am sure that if I came up to good ol Wizard guy he would have me come right in and sit at his very white, hating, yet loving table..

Oh yessum he would...

As for your other situation, I bet chu iz really nice to POC when you meet em, considering who raised you and all..

:sparklyheart: <for good measure

[Dylan]

BINGO Bronson!

I read through ALL the pages of this post in the red zone, Snow and I discussed it off and on through the next day, and I've taken to heart everyones statements, both good and bad. I really try to bite my tongue and keep my "middle of the road" political view points to myself. I'm sure I'm going to piss more than a few people off, but will try to explain myself as clearly as possible to avoid misunderstandings.

I guess I should start of with alittle bit of background, since most of you don't know me at all. I was born and raised in a stereotypical small southern town in the backwoods of Louisiana. I know Klansman. I have met the Imperial Grand Wizard over the South (who's actually a really nice guy, despite his short-comings). I grew up with, and around the stereotypes of the south. We were raised with (as someone previously state *sorry I can't remember who*) a healthy dose of racism. You just knew that Mom and Dad werent going to be proud to see a non WASP walk through the door with you arm in arm. My family did own slaves, but they were family. My great-great-great grandparents worked side by side with them, took good care of them, when slavery was abolished they choose to stay with my family. Their descents are still in touch with our family, one of them helped raised me in fact. I openly embrace the term "redneck", and most of my friends own something that has the "stars and bars", as we refer to it, on it.

With this being said....
The Confederate Flag CAN be a racist identifier, but like most labels, it isnt always the case. There are lesbians here that have pride colored Confederate Flag stickers on their vechiles. Knowing the stigma the flag itself carries, we should try to be alittle more understanding to those around us.

For me personally though, I don't always deem it as an identifier for a racist. I see it more as a reminder of history. So many of the principles that went into that flag, also went into making me, me. It's a note to remind me to keep my head down, work hard to provide for my family, to take pride in what I do, to remember the family values passed down from generation to generation through my family.

I respect the descision to not allow it on the site, and agree with it infact. This is just my little way to possibly give a different perspective on what it means to different people. That everyone that flies the flag isnt always a big evil racist, that they are actually just 'good ole boys'.


Sorry if I got alittle long winded, or off topic, and my deepest apologies if I even slightly offended someone. This was not my intentions at all.

:farmshotgun:
Lin

When over 500 hate groups use the confederate flag as a symbol of their group...how am I supposed to distinguish the 'good ole (white) boys' from the (white) haters?

I mean, am I supposed to walk up to the truck and ask, or should I just start heading back the way I came?


Southern Poverty Law Center Supplied The Info That Over 500 Hate Groups Use The Flag,
Dylan

[Sapph]

Why paint me black and blue and call me silly, for thinking they are similar.. I mean really what was I THINKING that the Gran Pooba of Imperialism and Hate against my kind.. I mean gosh willikers, what's a lil hate amongst friends yes?

I am sure that if I came up to good ol Wizard guy he would have me come right in and sit at his very white, hating, yet loving table..

Oh yessum he would...

As for your other situation, I bet chu iz really nice to POC when you meet em, considering who raised you and all..

:sparklyheart: <for good measure

The only point I'm attempting to make is to base people solely on THEM, not the stigma their labels imply. And isnt that a tad be racist in and of yourself to imply that I speak as you so gracefully phonetically spelled out? Why cant I be articulate, and just simply speak with a southern drawl?

[Blade]

WOW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

the first part of this link has been discussed scroll down to "Controversy" and read from there down

http://www.rulen.com/myths/
I found this interesting

http://www.elon.edu/e-web/pendulum/Issues/2005/04_07/opinions/flag.xhtml

yet another perspective

[The_Lady_Snow]

A good ole boy and a Klansmans are two completely different things. That would be like saying a butch and a FTM are the same thing. They are not.



Yanno this is where I sit at home, look at Grant and wanna say this..

I am the Imperialist Wizard Bitch of FUCK YOU...

I mean come on are you for realz???

Butch FTM compared to people who hate and have killed in the name of the confederacy..

Your good ol boys, are not a bunch of guys hanging at the pool bar discussing todays events.... They get bored or the wrong POC comes along they wanna hurt someone...

[Corkey]

While it is true that "some" Cherokee and Cree fought for the confederates, not all were in their camp. The ones who went were lied to by the white man yet again and told that if they helped, they would be rewarded with their homeland back. Bold face lie! The white man never would have kept that promise because gold was found on our lands. Gullible, perhaps, but lied to just the same. So some fought for the south, while others didn't, either way WE got the shaft. Please leave the "indian" out of the race war until you get your facts straight, as it were.

[Sapph]

Dylan,

I'm not saying you can distinguish. Hell I probably cant distinguish. I was trying to not everyone that flies the dixie pride is a racist.

I'm not saying that everyone that flies it is good either. There are good and bad in everything. We (as a minority being in the LQBTQ community) dont like to be stereotyped, but yet we do it to others just the same.

[NJFemmie]

I suggest you do some reading because that flag is definitely a symbol of racism. If you want to think that to some it is not, then denial of white priviledge is an issue.

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/rebelsclue2.html (http://www.lipmagazine.org/%7Etimwise/rebelsclue2.html)

Hope you take the time to read and rethink!

Grant :mohawk:

There is too much controversy surrounding this flag. It was a battle flag, that was adopted by the KKK and other racist groups. It didn't start as a racist flag, but it's history is convoluted and the attached propaganda made it what it has become.

[Blade]

I think assuming that anyone who displays the Confederate Flag is racist is about as narrow minded and ignorant as assuming because I am obviously female, but wear a hat and boots and jeans all the time that I am a pedophile, that because I am assumed to be GLBT I am a pedophile.

[Sapph]

Your good ol boys, are not a bunch of guys hanging at the pool bar discussing todays events.... They get bored or the wrong POC comes along they wanna hurt someone...

MY good ole boys as you are calling them now, havent actually killed anyone in their lives EVER. I'm assuming that the ones you are calling MINE are the ones I met and know, correct?

I cant speak for the hundreds of thousands of others I don't know, and only the good ole boys kill from hate?

Seems like they arent the only ones that commit hate crimes. They happen all day, everyday.

[The_Lady_Snow]

The only point I'm attempting to make is to base people solely on THEM, not the stigma their labels imply. And isnt that a tad be racist in and of yourself to imply that I speak as you so gracefully phonetically spelled out? Why cant I be articulate, and just simply speak with a southern drawl?

So your queer label, what does that imply or do you deny your gayness when people assume or know you are?? You think I am being racist how?? I was not compliant and did not agree to the fact the Wizard is a nice fella or good guy or what have you.. As for your southern drawl, I am all about it, I have a thick one too, yanno what they say, you can take the girl out of Alabama, but you can't take the Alabama out the girl.... We iz dirty that way.:wateringgarden:

[Dylan]

Dylan,

I'm not saying you can distinguish. Hell I probably cant distinguish. I was trying to not everyone that flies the dixie pride is a racist.

I'm not saying that everyone that flies it is good either. There are good and bad in everything. We (as a minority being in the LQBTQ community) dont like to be stereotyped, but yet we do it to others just the same.

I see what you're saying

But I'm seriously wondering why anyone would want to don a symbol that is linked to so many hate groups.

I mean, if you saw someone with a swastika tattoo, wouldn't you wonder why, of all the symbols in the world, a peace-loving person decided to don one associated with such hatred? I mean, of ALLLLLLLLLLLL the symbols in the whooooooooole world, why would a person who didn't identify with/or want to be linked to the hate groups, pick a symbol sooooooooo entrenched in so many hate groups?

It's kind of like me waving a BDSM flag, and then getting angry when people ask me if I'm into BDSM, no? Or if I were to wave a Canadian flag and then get ticked when people make the assumption that I'm Canadian.


Dylan

[VuDu]

There is too much controversy surrounding this flag. It was a battle flag, that was adopted by the KKK and other racist groups. It didn't start as a racist flag, but it's history is convoluted and the attached propaganda made it what it has become.


Thank you, Femmelicious. This is why I heart you.

As I have stated before, feel free to remove the flag from here. It won't bother me a bit. I am still Southern. Proud of my heritage and all that has happened along the way. I have been kidnapped by a POC, shot at by a POC, car jacked by a POC. Does this make me racist? I don't think so... but it does make me leery of large POC (obviously my own issues). Am I about to fly a flag to declare that? No. Will I fly my flag because I am proud of the ideals behind it? Absolutely.

Think what you want about why I fly it. Will still fly it. Will still be a proud lesbian flying a rebel flag. For my own reasons. Sure the guy next door has his OWN reasons for flying it (which don't include slavery the teensiest bit), as does the woman down the street, the kids at the school, etc.

I am horrified that the southern accent is being made fun of. That is definitely not in the community spirit. tsk tsk

[Sapph]

So your queer label, what does that imply or do you deny your gayness when people assume or know you are?? You think I am being racist how?? I was not compliant and did not agree to the fact the Wizard is a nice fella or good guy or what have you.. As for your southern drawl, I am all about it, I have a thick one too, yanno what they say, you can take the girl out of Alabama, but you can't take the Alabama out the girl.... We iz dirty that way.:wateringgarden:

I dont deny my gayness, but as a femme wouldnt you get annoyed if someone assumed that you only slept with other femmes (because thats what is mostly protrayed on TV and in Movies). I happen to fall into the the BF dynamic, but what if I were into other butch girls. I would get annoyed when people would assume I was into femmes.

"Oh yessum he would...

As for your other situation, I bet chu iz really nice to POC when you meet em, considering who raised you and all.." came off as a slight be racist, that simply because I was raised by an older African American woman that she, or I would speak in that perticular dialect.

[VuDu]

I think assuming that anyone who displays the Confederate Flag is racist is about as narrow minded and ignorant as assuming because I am obviously female, but wear a hat and boots and jeans all the time that I am a pedophile, that because I am assumed to be GLBT I am a pedophile.

Funny thing... here in LA, almost all women wear boots, hats and jeans and no one assumes they are a pedophile. I have seen so many GLBT here and can say the same.

My daughter thinks men who look like Santa are pedophiles. tit for tat.

People shouldn't generalize

[BullDog]

I do assume if someone is flying the Confederate flag that they are racist, homophobic and God only knows what else. I don't want to be anywhere near them. They choose to fly the flag- thanks for the warning. Same thing with the swastika. If they are such good people why do they choose a symbol associated with racism and hate? You can be proud of being Southern or whatever you are without using symbols of hate. If the rainbow flag ever gets co-opted by hate mongers I won't use it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Funny how I too have some pride, southern even, but it has NOTHING to do with a flag that represents hate, oppression and other not so nice things..

Let's just say I would sho not be stickin around ya'll neighborhood after dark...


Ya'll skeer me... and not in a good way..

:brightbulb:

[Daywalker]

I think assuming that anyone who displays the Confederate Flag is racist is about as narrow minded and ignorant as assuming because I am obviously female, but wear a hat and boots and jeans all the time that I am a pedophile, that because I am assumed to be GLBT I am a pedophile.

Pedophile...really?

:LGBTQFlag:

That's just fucking creepy and a new one to me,
but I will not exchange mah boots for flip-flops just yet.

:daywalker:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I dont deny my gayness, but as a femme wouldnt you get annoyed if someone assumed that you only slept with other femmes (because thats what is mostly protrayed on TV and in Movies). I happen to fall into the the BF dynamic, but what if I were into other butch girls. I would get annoyed when people would assume I was into femmes.

"Oh yessum he would...

As for your other situation, I bet chu iz really nice to POC when you meet em, considering who raised you and all.." came off as a slight be racist, that simply because I was raised by an older African American woman that she, or I would speak in that perticular dialect.


No I don't get annoyed if people assumed I fucked other femmes, I have... I don't fall into any dynamic when fucking so don't get cha there, and as for the boy on boy thing I am all for it..

As for how I am with POC, btw I don't know how you know who raised me and all, since we don't know one another.. I've had no problems with any cousins, friends, who are all POC like myself when we sit around and communicate with them as I am with you now...

So your point?

[Sapph]

I see what you're saying

But I'm seriously wondering why anyone would want to don a symbol that is linked to so many hate groups.

I mean, if you saw someone with a swastika tattoo, wouldn't you wonder why, of all the symbols in the world, a peace-loving person decided to don one associated with such hatred? I mean, of ALLLLLLLLLLLL the symbols in the whooooooooole world, why would a person who didn't identify with/or want to be linked to the hate groups, pick a symbol sooooooooo entrenched in so many hate groups?

It's kind of like me waving a BDSM flag, and then getting angry when people ask me if I'm into BDSM, no? Or if I were to wave a Canadian flag and then get ticked when people make the assumption that I'm Canadian.


Dylan

Very good points Dylan, and I certainly dont mind getting the questioned about my stance on racism. I'm simply stating my opinion on it, and what it means to me. I completely understand the chaos surrounding it, just offering a different perspective. Kind of "different side of the same coin" type of thing.

[Blade]

Funny thing... here in LA, almost all women wear boots, hats and jeans and no one assumes they are a pedophile. I have seen so many GLBT here and can say the same.

My daughter thinks men who look like Santa are pedophiles. tit for tat.

People shouldn't generalize

That is exactly what I'm saying. Just because a person displays a Confederate Flag somewhere doesn't make them racist.

[Dylan]

There is too much controversy surrounding this flag. It was a battle flag, that was adopted by the KKK and other racist groups. It didn't start as a racist flag, but it's history is convoluted and the attached propaganda made it what it has become.

What we today call the 'Confederate Flag' was actually never flown over any of the confederate states. The battle flag was actually different (a small little square similar to today's confederate flag on a massive sea of white). Today's version didn't come into existence until the 20th century (namely around ww2).

I say this, not to argue with you, but because I always get completely confused when good ole Southern (white) folk say this flag has been around for generations and SoAndSo Family Member flew it in battle, and blah blah blah


Dylan

P.S. The 'stars and bars' when used to reference today's confederate flag is actually incorrect usage as the 'stars and bars' was a different flag completely that looked more similar to Texas' state flag

[NJFemmie]

Thank you, Femmelicious. This is why I heart you.

As I have stated before, feel free to remove the flag from here. It won't bother me a bit. I am still Southern. Proud of my heritage and all that has happened along the way. I have been kidnapped by a POC, shot at by a POC, car jacked by a POC. Does this make me racist? I don't think so... but it does make me leery of large POC (obviously my own issues). Am I about to fly a flag to declare that? No. Will I fly my flag because I am proud of the ideals behind it? Absolutely.

Think what you want about why I fly it. Will still fly it. Will still be a proud lesbian flying a rebel flag. For my own reasons. Sure the guy next door has his OWN reasons for flying it (which don't include slavery the teensiest bit), as does the woman down the street, the kids at the school, etc.

I am horrified that the southern accent is being made fun of. That is definitely not in the community spirit. tsk tsk


See, I'm not from the South. I was born and bred in New Jersey. I cannot and probably never will be able to relate to your reasons, and frankly, I don't have to, just as you don't have to relate to mine. And, it's all good. Do I think you're a racist because you fly the flag? No. I don't know you to make that assessment. Even that night I asked myself when we saw the dude in the pickup truck drive past - was it wrong for me to assume he's racist? Maybe it was - hell, I don't know him either.

But I know what that flag means to a lot of people (despite it's origin). I know that a lot of white supremacists use that flag. Yes, it's a stereotype - and a sad, horrible one at that - but it exists. They bastardized that flag, and made it what it is.

Oh .. and P.S. I heart you even though you fly that flag. *smirk*

[VuDu]

I see what you're saying

But I'm seriously wondering why anyone would want to don a symbol that is linked to so many hate groups.

I mean, if you saw someone with a swastika tattoo, wouldn't you wonder why, of all the symbols in the world, a peace-loving person decided to don one associated with such hatred? I mean, of ALLLLLLLLLLLL the symbols in the whooooooooole world, why would a person who didn't identify with/or want to be linked to the hate groups, pick a symbol sooooooooo entrenched in so many hate groups?

It's kind of like me waving a BDSM flag, and then getting angry when people ask me if I'm into BDSM, no? Or if I were to wave a Canadian flag and then get ticked when people make the assumption that I'm Canadian.


Dylan

The swastika was originally a symbol for peace which then became widely known when Hitler adopted it as a symbol for racial purity and massacred those he deemed unworthy. It has similarities ONLY because they are symbols that have turned into a stigma.

Your last paragraph I can only shake my head at. Of course people are going to assume you are Canadian if you fly the flag. Most people here in the south are only going to think you are southern if you fly the "dixie".

[NJFemmie]

What we today call the 'Confederate Flag' was actually never flown over any of the confederate states. The battle flag was actually different (a small little square similar to today's confederate flag on a massive sea of white). Today's version didn't come into existence until the 20th century (namely around ww2).

I say this, not to argue with you, but because I always get completely confused when good ole Southern (white) folk say this flag has been around for generations and SoAndSo Family Member flew it in battle, and blah blah blah


Dylan

P.S. The 'stars and bars' when used to reference today's confederate flag is actually incorrect usage as the 'stars and bars' was a different flag completely that looked more similar to Texas' state flag


And you would be right. However, there were a few versions of the confederate flag - the one in question being the last one - which yes, was never raised. They made the last one because the white was mistaken as a truce flag. By the time they created the "Rebel Flag", the war already ended.

This flag was used after the first battle of Manassas (Bull Run). Designed by General Beauregard, the thirteen stars represented the states claimed by the confederacy. This flag is known as the "Southern Cross".

[Dylan]

Very good points Dylan, and I certainly dont mind getting the questioned about my stance on racism. I'm simply stating my opinion on it, and what it means to me. I completely understand the chaos surrounding it, just offering a different perspective. Kind of "different side of the same coin" type of thing.

I'm not questioning your stance on racism. I was asking why, if One knows the flag is used by so many hate groups, One would want to be associated with the symbol.

I mean, if you know you're going to get mistaken for a member of a hate group, simply because you're waving their symbol around, why then complain if people associate you with a hate group?

Again, if I waved a swastika around, I would expect people to associate me with Nazism...ergo, I couldn't really complain if people pointed at me and said, "Hey, look at the Nazi"

So, my shortened question, why wave a symbol you KNOW is associated with a hate group and then complain when people think you're associated with a hate group?


Dylan

[NJFemmie]

The swastika was originally a symbol for peace which then became widely known when Hitler adopted it as a symbol for racial purity and massacred those he deemed unworthy. It has similarities ONLY because they are symbols that have turned into a stigma.



And you would be correct. When I see it, I think of what my parents went through during WWII and being prisoners of war. I can't see it as a peaceful symbol, and probably never will.

[Sapph]

No I don't get annoyed if people assumed I fucked other femmes, I have... I don't fall into any dynamic when fucking so don't get cha there, and as for the boy on boy thing I am all for it..

As for how I am with POC, btw I don't know how you know who raised me and all, since we don't know one another.. I've had no problems with any cousins, friends, who are all POC like myself when we sit around and communicate with them as I am with you now...

So your point?

So you get annoyed when put in a dynamic. Noone likes to be piegon holed.

And No, I dont know who raised you, and no I don't know you. I have stated in a couple of different post that a African American woman helped to raise me. "I bet chu iz really nice to POC when you meet em, considering who raised you and all.." is really comes across as an insult, wheither it was meant that way or not.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So you get annoyed when put in a dynamic. Noone likes to be piegon holed.

And No, I dont know who raised you, and no I don't know you. I have stated in a couple of different post that a African American woman helped to raise me. "I bet chu iz really nice to POC when you meet em, considering who raised you and all.." is really comes across as an insult, wheither it was meant that way or not.


I often feel misunderstood when I am not complying to peoples ideals on what good racism and bad racism is... I mean after all, you have the game on what it's like to be a POC and the feelings around the flag, considering who help raise you and all.. I bet you were really empathetic to your Ms who helped raise you, she must be so proud of you and I bet loved or loves each time see sees that pretty lil flag anywhere near ya..

Heart touching I tell ya, how could I be so wrong about you.... You are a really nice, good person~:dots:

[Dylan]

The swastika was originally a symbol for peace which then became widely known when Hitler adopted it as a symbol for racial purity and massacred those he deemed unworthy. It has similarities ONLY because they are symbols that have turned into a stigma.


Right.

However, if I fly the swastika, no one's going to say, "Hey, look at the really peaceful pagan!"

Nope, because hardly anyone knows where the swastika came from. But everyone knows the Nazis used it, and that it was a symbol for them.

It's been branded.

Just as the confederate flag has been branded by hate groups.


Dylan

[BullDog]

I've never heard of proud African American, Latina/Latino or Native American Southerners riding around with the flag in the back of their pickup trucks- only white people. Who gets to decide what "Southern pride" is? Just some white people, at the expense of others?

I'm proud to be a transplanted Oregonian but wouldn't use any symbol of hate to express that. Go Beavers, Go Ducks.

[Admin]

Hey Folks,

There haven't been any reported posts or fuckery from this thread or anything today (knock on wood) but just wanted to give a gentle reminder to keep discussing this issue in healthy ways.

So far, the discussion has been pretty amazing. :)

Thanks.

[weatherboi]

Hey Lin!
I highlighted some of your words in red because they am a Southernerare important for me to address you about...since you put yourself out here.

1- There is nothing middle of the road about your view points. Your right lean is obvious even if you don't vote that way and I am assuming you vote.

2-There is no healthy dose of racism!! I know this from my own experince. I am a Southerner like you...4th generation Floridian and we also had a hand in settling Georgia going back more genrerations. I know this only because of a quest to find out through a visit to the geneology school in Utah. It was from my own personal struggle I needed to know and understand. Why am I telling you this?? I too had a little dose of racism growing up...but it wasnt healthy for me!! I can remember as a little guy my grandfather loading me up in his station wagon and driving me across town and telling me we was going to pick up some N......'s to do some work. I cringed like to the extreme of folding my arms and feeling a level of discomfort that to this day I will never get past. Karma is a bitch cause thazt day my grandfather got a dose. It came in the form of the victimizing his granddaughter by a very angry oppressed man. Racism/hate is a funny thing...haters oppress and the popressed reacte.

3- Wizard over the south?? You got a name buddy??? I think you are full of crap and a liar!!!

4- What part of histry does it remind you of???? Concrete history I am asking for please???

5- Good ole boys??? This statement was formed from racism...you will never see a POC saying that dude!! Here is the definition....
Noun 1. good ole boy - a white male Southerner with an unpretentious convivial manner and conservative or intolerant attitudes and a strong sense of fellowship with and loyalty to other members of his peer group.

6-I am not offended by you!! I think you are misguided!! My Southern pride does not come in the form of the opressive confederate flag. It comes in the form of a desire to see the South make the forward move to progressive thinking and retain that heritage we all know and love.




BINGO Bronson!

I read through ALL the pages of this post in the red zone, Snow and I discussed it off and on through the next day, and I've taken to heart everyones statements, both good and bad. I really try to bite my tongue and keep my "middle of the road" political view points to myself. I'm sure I'm going to piss more than a few people off, but will try to explain myself as clearly as possible to avoid misunderstandings.

I guess I should start of with alittle bit of background, since most of you don't know me at all. I was born and raised in a stereotypical small southern town in the backwoods of Louisiana. I know Klansman. I have met the Imperial Grand Wizard over the South (who's actually a really nice guy, despite his short-comings). I grew up with, and around the stereotypes of the south. We were raised with (as someone previously state *sorry I can't remember who*) a healthy dose of racism. You just knew that Mom and Dad werent going to be proud to see a non WASP walk through the door with you arm in arm. My family did own slaves, but they were family. My great-great-great grandparents worked side by side with them, took good care of them, when slavery was abolished they choose to stay with my family. Their descents are still in touch with our family, one of them helped raised me in fact. I openly embrace the term "redneck", and most of my friends own something that has the "stars and bars", as we refer to it, on it.

With this being said....
The Confederate Flag CAN be a racist identifier, but like most labels, it isnt always the case. There are lesbians here that have pride colored Confederate Flag stickers on their vechiles. Knowing the stigma the flag itself carries, we should try to be alittle more understanding to those around us.

For me personally though, I don't always deem it as an identifier for a racist. I see it more as a reminder of history. So many of the principles that went into that flag, also went into making me, me. It's a note to remind me to keep my head down, work hard to provide for my family, to take pride in what I do, to remember the family values passed down from generation to generation through my family.

I respect the descision to not allow it on the site, and agree with it infact. This is just my little way to possibly give a different perspective on what it means to different people. That everyone that flies the flag isnt always a big evil racist, that they are actually just 'good ole boys'.

Sorry if I got alittle long winded, or off topic, and my deepest apologies if I even slightly offended someone. This was not my intentions at all.
:farmshotgun:
Lin

[Medusa]

A quick story about the Confederate flag:

Years ago, when I lived in the Bay Area, I went to a memorial concert in Golden Gate park for the music promoter, Bill Graham. EVERYONE was there, the Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Los Lobos, BB King and Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Tom and the Boys got up, started into their set and out of the roiling crowd a Confederate flag was raised. They stopped, mid-song and Tom said that either the flag disappeared or they wouldn't play another note.

The flag disappeared. :) I've loved Tom Petty since Full Moon Fever but that day, he became more than just a musician to me--he became an hero.

Is the flag racist? No, the flag is a piece of cloth. Does it represent racism? Yes. I have heard all kinds of justifications for why it isn't...that the South was fighting for 'freedom'--but it was freedom to preserve their 'way of life' which included keeping people who I am genetically related to as property and, although this is not a particularly popular opinion these days, there are ways of life that we should NOT be sanguine about, no matter where or when they are practiced. Slaveholding is one such way of life. It may have been the culture of the South, but that means that the culture of the South was wrong. After slavery, the flag came to represent segregation and the belief that blacks were inherently less human than whites. I have seen no reason to believe that this has changed one bit in the last century.

Cheers
Aj


Just wanted to bump this post back up. Thought it was poignant.

[AtLast]

My internal gauge for this has always been based upon how POC view this flag. It stings of racism to those I have conversed with. But, these are only people I know and ever had this discussion with. I have to admit that people flying it or having a rebel flag bumper sticker or front license plate that I have delt with were racist. Again.... this experience is mine and from a Western geographic location. I certainly believe that California has had a history of stereotyping people from the south, however. And not in very positive terms.

I don't understand why someone would choose this symbol as representative of southern pride either, given the association it has with hate groups. I certainly see a lot that southerners should be proud of and am glad that as I grew up, I became involved with several people from the deep south including my very longtime partner. There are wonderful traditions within southern culture that I appreciate.

Just seems like so many other symbols of southern heritage can be more positively identified.

I do stand behind the site administration for banning this symbol and think it is a matter of sensitivity to POC, especially members that do indeeed, have familial history stemming from black slavery in the US.

Frankly, I find the use of master & slave in any context disturbing. I really appreciate it when BSDM friends use other terms (dominant/submissive, etc.) around me as I have stated my distaste for these in particular (has nothing to do with one's sexual expression).

About 10 years ago, I bought a new car and in the manual it had master & slave keys listed. I thought... So, you couldn't call them main (or primary) & secondary, or even master & auxilary?

Maybe it is just a personal thang....


:thinking:

[suebee]

My personal feelings: <snip>

As a Southern woman, (notice the capital "S") I have pride in my culture:
Even country music (which I sometimes dance to but also sometimes throw up in my mouth a little over. <snip>
THIS was worth reading the whole thread! :)



Symbols. I'm not much into them myself. But there's not much doubt - whatever the confederate flag might have been at one time - what it's used for primarily now. It reeks of the worst of the south. It taints the south. I can't believe this thread popped up again!

P.S The confederate flag is used here in Canada too. There's not much doubt as to what it symbolizes here, 'cause southern pride ain't real big around these parts.

[weatherboi]

Hey NJFemmie!! Hi!!
Do you think the guys that thought up the flag werent racist when they created it?? They were, and it doesnt matter how many pretty words that were put into our history books about the development of it. The ideals behind the south and fighting that civil war was over racism. It stands to say that the flag holds those same values...Racism values. The racist idiot troops avdopted it because of that exact significance!!! It is a racist symbol from birth!!!




There is too much controversy surrounding this flag. It was a battle flag, that was adopted by the KKK and other racist groups. It didn't start as a racist flag, but it's history is convoluted and the attached propaganda made it what it has become.

[Jackhammer]

Dear JH,I don't believe the flag is racist.Some people who display it might be though.Take where I live,in N.CA.Why just the other day someone drove right by me on the highway with the Confederate flag waving proudly in the back of his PU bed.I was disturbed by it because I knew in my heart that person was an asshole and was looking for a fight.I was thinking to myself that he'll probably find a fight(or worse) on his hands if he decides to hit any major highway near the city limits.Trust me.It doesn't look like that story was going to end nicely.Of course I won't feel the least bit sorry for him,he's asking for a good butt kick.But I will feel sorry for the person who might go to jail because of this idiot.

So you're assuming the reason for this person flying a flag was racism, it was, as you say, "a feeling in your heart"? Why is that, because its notoriously known as a symbol of Hate?

I don't believe that everyone who displays that flag Is a racist,I just don't.
That flag has a history,some good,some bad.It belongs to someone's culture.

You're contradicting yourself.

Black people fought for that flag,so did some native americans.I knew a native american indian man who had ancestors fight for the south during the civil war.He gave me this Confederate flag with a native american man on it.Out of respect for your site I won't put it in the gallery or anywhere else on your site.I know emotions run deep.I did this on another site once,huge mistake.But it hangs in my office.And no,I am not a racist.It's there for sentimental reasons alone.

People have a right to fly the Confederate flag,but for peace sake,there is a time and place for everything.

And that place would be your office wall and not on the back of a pickup truck?

Jesse

.................

[Odarlin]

...I have met the Imperial Grand Wizard over the South (who's actually a really nice guy, despite his short-comings)....

I'm curious, if your interested in answering:

Would this individual have been aware that you were a gay butch* during this interaction/s?


*if my identification of you is incorrect please insert correct ID

[Daywalker]

I'm intrigued by the placement and the use of the phrase...'...short comings'


:daywalker:

[WolfyOne]

I'm a Northerner who knows little about the south or the flag, but from everything I read in this thread so far, I see everyone's side. Anyhow, after all I've read, if someone was to ask me what I thought about the flag now, I'd have to say.....it says slavery to me and slavery to me means racism in this day and age.

Once again, I've popped into a thread where I'll say, you can all agree to disagree, but when you've finished saying it, I hope that each of you can still shake hands in the end. After all, this is an open discussion and all opinions, good or bad should be welcome.

[Jess]

Hey Lin!
I highlighted some of your words in red because they am a Southernerare important for me to address you about...since you put yourself out here.

1- There is nothing middle of the road about your view points. Your right lean is obvious even if you don't vote that way and I am assuming you vote.

2-There is no healthy dose of racism!! I know this from my own experince. I am a Southerner like you...4th generation Floridian and we also had a hand in settling Georgia going back more genrerations. I know this only because of a quest to find out through a visit to the geneology school in Utah. It was from my own personal struggle I needed to know and understand. Why am I telling you this?? I too had a little dose of racism growing up...but it wasnt healthy for me!! I can remember as a little guy my grandfather loading me up in his station wagon and driving me across town and telling me we was going to pick up some N......'s to do some work. I cringed like to the extreme of folding my arms and feeling a level of discomfort that to this day I will never get past. Karma is a bitch cause thazt day my grandfather got a dose. It came in the form of the victimizing his granddaughter by a very angry oppressed man. Racism/hate is a funny thing...haters oppress and the popressed reacte.

3- Wizard over the south?? You got a name buddy??? I think you are full of crap and a liar!!!

4- What part of histry does it remind you of???? Concrete history I am asking for please???

5- Good ole boys??? This statement was formed from racism...you will never see a POC saying that dude!! Here is the definition....
Noun 1. good ole boy - a white male Southerner with an unpretentious convivial manner and conservative or intolerant attitudes and a strong sense of fellowship with and loyalty to other members of his peer group.

6-I am not offended by you!! I think you are misguided!! My Southern pride does not come in the form of the opressive confederate flag. It comes in the form of a desire to see the South make the forward move to progressive thinking and retain that heritage we all know and love.


Sorry to derail a bit. However, no matter which thread it is in or what the topic is, a man violating another mans daughter as some sort of karmic payback is just a fucked up way to view violence against women. Black, white green, polka dot, it is an act of violence not to be excused.

[Apocalipstic]

Thank you, Femmelicious. This is why I heart you.

As I have stated before, feel free to remove the flag from here. It won't bother me a bit. I am still Southern. Proud of my heritage and all that has happened along the way. I have been kidnapped by a POC, shot at by a POC, car jacked by a POC. Does this make me racist? I don't think so... but it does make me leery of large POC (obviously my own issues). Am I about to fly a flag to declare that? No. Will I fly my flag because I am proud of the ideals behind it? Absolutely.

Think what you want about why I fly it. Will still fly it. Will still be a proud lesbian flying a rebel flag. For my own reasons. Sure the guy next door has his OWN reasons for flying it (which don't include slavery the teensiest bit), as does the woman down the street, the kids at the school, etc.

I am horrified that the southern accent is being made fun of. That is definitely not in the community spirit. tsk tsk


If the flag you fly makes one single person uncomfortable or scared is it worth it?

To be honest with you, I have been raped, almost raped, hit, attacked by white people, do you know who stood up for me? Black women stood up for me.

Everything bad that has ever happened to me in my life has been at the hands of white people....do I hate white people?

Has nothing bad ever happened to you at the hands of white people?

It is the person who is bad, not the color of the skin.



That is exactly what I'm saying. Just because a person displays a Confederate Flag somewhere doesn't make them racist.

Maybe not, however I do think it makes them incredibly insensitive at best.

I am Southern, I am not bashing you guys...simply trying to say that it makes us all look bad when we hold on to something we KNOW is frightening to so many people.

Right.

However, if I fly the swastika, no one's going to say, "Hey, look at the really peaceful pagan!"

Nope, because hardly anyone knows where the swastika came from. But everyone knows the Nazis used it, and that it was a symbol for them.

It's been branded.

Just as the confederate flag has been branded by hate groups.


Dylan


I so agree with this.

We can't it all good loving conscience use symbols that represent hate for millions of people without it appearing that we too are filled with hate.

Why not try to find a loving symbol to fly?

[weatherboi]

Hey Jess and thanks for your input!! I was the girl in this story. My family and my experince. The karma I refer to is only to my family and no other. I do not view all violence against women as karma. I dont think i said that!!!! This is merely my way of dealing so I dont hate my grandfather and i dont hate the guy that did it. The violence wasnt excused. The guy was jailed and went on to live the oppressed life he was born into. I think he is dead. My grandfather went on to learn absolutely nothing but to hate even more...and blame others.

Karma is a alive and thriving!!

Grant

Sorry to derail a bit. However, no matter which thread it is in or what the topic is, a man violating another mans daughter as some sort of karmic payback is just a fucked up way to view violence against women. Black, white green, polka dot, it is an act of violence not to be excused.

[Jess]

Hey Jess and thanks for your input!! I was the girl in this story. My family and my experince. The karma I refer to is only to my family and no other. I do not view all violence against women as karma. I dont think i said that!!!! This is merely my way of dealing so I dont hate my grandfather and i dont hate the guy that did it. The violence wasnt excused. The guy was jailed and went on to live the oppressed life he was born into. I think he is dead. My grandfather went on to learn absolutely nothing but to hate even more...and blame others.

Karma is a alive and thriving!!

Grant

I'm sorry to hear this happened to you Grant. Thank you for sharing it. I thank you very much for making that more clear, because as I read it initially, it seemed you were saying that karma was playing a horrible payback on an innocent.

Thanks again!

[suebee]

I guess I should start of with alittle bit of background, since most of you don't know me at all. I was born and raised in a stereotypical small southern town in the backwoods of Louisiana. I know Klansman. I have met the Imperial Grand Wizard over the South (who's actually a really nice guy, despite his short-comings). I grew up with, and around the stereotypes of the south.
Lin


This post has been bothering me, so I decided to come back and address it.

Lin, I think you have to make peace with your past. It's easy to talk about "a racist" and think of them as evil, despicable people, whose opinions and beliefs are hateful and just plain wrong. It's a whole lot harder to apply the term "racist" to those you grew up around, and quite likely still have contact with. They're part of your world, and after all.....YOU'RE not racist. Right?

Guess what? Stereotypes apply to people. Real people. They may be people who love you and who you've loved. They may very well do good things in their community, take care of their children, their mother, their dog.....their neighbour who has just had surgery. They may give to good causes, and pray to Jesus every Sunday morning. But if they believe in racist philosophy, they are racist.

The Imperial Grand Wizard: he may be "a nice guy" when you meet him. He may pay his taxes and keep his garden free from bugs and weeds. But sorry Lin - him being Imperial Grand Wizard? If there were a point system he'd be WAAAAAAAYYYYYYY in the red with just this one part of his life, because it encourages, nutures and practices so much more hate in this world than ANYTHING else he could do in his life.

He IS NOT a nice guy. He may have smiled at you, shook your hand and said your daddy was a good man. But he is not a nice guy.

[Medusa]

Interesting sidenote: I've been researching the structure of the Klan and the many subsets of white supremacist hate groups and have yet to find more than one that is explicitly welcoming to Gay/Lesbian folks. (most certainly NOT welcoming to Transfolks)

[Jess]

Interesting sidenote: I've been researching the structure of the Klan and the many subsets of white supremacist hate groups and have yet to find more than one that is explicitly welcoming to Gay/Lesbian folks. (most certainly NOT welcoming to Transfolks)


I would be surprised that you were able to find even one.

[apretty]

People have a right to fly the Confederate flag,but for peace sake,there is a time and place for everything.

Jesse


absolutely! a klan rally comes to mind. (to be certain i should consult the Emily Post's Guide to Klan Matters Manners.)

[The_Lady_Snow]

absolutely! a klan rally comes to mind. (to be certain i should consult the Emily Post's Guide to Klan Matters Manners.)


I can't wait for this event!! We should do it at the Reunion!!!

Fun times!:help:>me activating phone tree on Ms Dress

[Gentle Tiger]

I've been reading and rereading this thread for a few days now without posting. I wanted to really think this through and not just react. My experience includes being a black woman and a black man. Growing up in the city of of Boston where racism is subtle but lethal and attending Bible School and Seminary in Columbia, SC where racism was blatant and clear in some areas but also sweet and quite dangerous in other areas. I have had my share of experiences with those who were proud of the confederate flag - with some who clearly wanted me silenced and with others who claimed to be my christian brother or sister protesting every step of the way that we are all equal and yet who made it clear by their actions and decisions that white was always right.

I was trying to remember if I had had any positive first hand experiences with the confederate flag or those who loved them; if I had any encounters where the flag represented at that moment what its original meaning had been. And I have to say I have had NONE! I wish that I could say that wasn't the case even on the evangelical christian campus - I caused quite a bit of controversy by the speeches and debates confronting bigotry while there (I know those who know me are surprised). I will never forget the sticker flag on my car and mirror busted after I gave a presentation calling for the real church, the one where all are equal; that Jesus demonstrated to stand up during a Black History Month chapel. Maybe it was equating those who practice bigotry in the church with the Pharisees and Saducees who also practiced classism, sexism, bigotry etc. Maybe that was a little over the top. *smirk*

I get what the flag represented at one time in history. And I understand that each person has a right to freedom of speech as a citizen of this country. I get that a person has a right to express themselves on their property. But I didn't get and still don't get how the confederate flag was proudly waved over the capitol building that is supposed to represent EVERYONE; knowing that the meaning of the symbol had changed and we were in different times.

But what always irked me, and this thread showed me that I am still vexed is the expectation/belief by those who embrace the confederate flag today that I must go through the mental and emotional exercise to believe for the good - that their pride is good. I would be told that I shouldn't assume the worst; I should be open to the possibility that they're pride means me and those like me no harm. I am supposed to do this even though erring on the side of caution could cost me my life. I was expected to change my attitude and adapt to their definitions, their beliefs. Why?

And yet these individuals felt no need to do any sort of exercise and think what their action pertaining to this flag could be saying to those different from themselves. There was no willingness to put themselves in my shoes. There was no willingness to expand their minds as they were expecting us to do with their viewpoint. And to suggest that they do so was clearly not my place. Why is that? I never was one to stay inside the lines.

Sorry to be so long winded but this really hit a nerve. And that is a good thing. We must continue to think, discuss, take action and grow. We must be willing to put those things aside that hinder growth.

*the gentle tiger steps down from the soapbox and looks for something to eat*

[Sapph]

I'm going to try to go through and reply to all the post that were made for my benefit in one post, or atleast touch on them. So sorry in advance for the length.

My choice on my meaning of the flag is akin to the reasons why anything develops the meaning it does. One person takes a meaningless drawing and says "i want to make it this", enough people join in that belief and so it is. Why cant I try to take back the meaning of the rebel flag? The Pink Triangle, the pentagram, penticle, the rock n' roll hand symbol were all once deemed to be something bad, but we put alittle intelligence behind them and made them socially acceptable again.

Actually I've seen a few African Americans that had a rebel flag, mostly because it's used to represent one of the local high schools (who's mascot is a Rebel).

What exactly is so wrong with leaning right in the way I vote? Isn't that what voting is about? To attempt to elect officials into office that will benefit me? Although, I am middle of the road, I do lean to the left. Healthy was a loosey used term, meaning a good dose of. The Wizards name is David Duke. I'm pretty easy to peg as a butch lesbian. I'm a walking stereotype. I get called sir often, and most realize they are wrong once I speak.

I'm well aware that the people I grew up around were/are racist. Then again they are also gun carrying, God fearing people as well. I dont own a gun (I simply dont have the need for it) and I'm atheist. I'm sure that plenty of people out there take the good from their parents and not EVERYTHING their parents taught. You learn from the mistakes of others, and not repeat the cycle. Does them being racist make them genuinely evil people. I dont think so. Perhaps misguided, misinformed, ill informed. It's the sect of society I grew up. It's not something i chose to surround myself in, but it happened.

Our founding Fathers,namely Washington and Jefferson, were slave owners and racist. Does this make them equally as evil? Franklin was a slave owner, but educated himself and saw otherwise, eventually freeing his own slaves. Most racism comes from fear and prejudice that is taught. It can be overcome. Doesn't mean they are nescessarily bad people.

[Write14u]

Most people here in the south are only going to think you are southern if you fly the "dixie".

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I live in the South, have lived here my entire life. And if I see someone flying the confederate flag, I think they're probably racist.

It stands to say that the flag holds those same values...Racism values. The racist idiot troops avdopted it because of that exact significance!!! It is a racist symbol from birth!!!

Again. Disagree.
There were a whole lot of reasons the war was fought. And yes, there were many oppressionists who simply wanted to retain that way of life that included slavery. However, you're inferring way too much -- and stepping out on history with your own interpretation here. The troops simply needed a battle flag where they could tell the difference between Northern and Southern troops.

The racism and hatred that goes along with this flag was attached later.

I hate that the South can not let go of this one symbol. Dylan is absolutely right about the meanings and associations that are attached to this flag, just as many of the same ones were attached to swaztikas.

I have yet to hear any of the defenders of this flag explain why they choose to embrace something that IS considered racist, whether they are themselves.

As for celebrating southern pride? I am all over that. I have a flag proposal. How about a white flag with a glass of ice tea and a big ol' chunk of my grandma's pecan pie? That works for me for celebrating my southern pride and heritage.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm going to try to go through and reply to all the post that were made for my benefit in one post, or atleast touch on them. So sorry in advance for the length.

My choice on my meaning of the flag is akin to the reasons why anything develops the meaning it does. One person takes a meaningless drawing and says "i want to make it this", enough people join in that belief and so it is. Why cant I try to take back the meaning of the rebel flag? The Pink Triangle, the pentagram, penticle, the rock n' roll hand symbol were all once deemed to be something bad, but we put alittle intelligence behind them and made them socially acceptable again.

Actually I've seen a few African Americans that had a rebel flag, mostly because it's used to represent one of the local high schools (who's mascot is a Rebel).

What exactly is so wrong with leaning right in the way I vote? Isn't that what voting is about? To attempt to elect officials into office that will benefit me? Although, I am middle of the road, I do lean to the left. Healthy was a loosey used term, meaning a good dose of. The Wizards name is David Duke. I'm pretty easy to peg as a butch lesbian. I'm a walking stereotype. I get called sir often, and most realize they are wrong once I speak.

I'm well aware that the people I grew up around were/are racist. Then again they are also gun carrying, God fearing people as well. I dont own a gun (I simply dont have the need for it) and I'm atheist. I'm sure that plenty of people out there take the good from their parents and not EVERYTHING their parents taught. You learn from the mistakes of others, and not repeat the cycle. Does them being racist make them genuinely evil people. I dont think so. Perhaps misguided, misinformed, ill informed. It's the sect of society I grew up. It's not something i chose to surround myself in, but it happened.

Our founding Fathers,namely Washington and Jefferson, were slave owners and racist. Does this make them equally as evil? hell yeah Franklin was a slave owner, but educated himself and saw otherwise, eventually freeing his own slaves. Most racism comes from fear and prejudice that is taught. It can be overcome. Doesn't mean they are nescessarily bad people.

So the guys who killed that man in Texas were not really bad good ol boys right? They were just scared and well since they were not bad people dragging his body all over Jasper Texas was just what?

A neighborly way to say hi..

Yeah, you are the kind of southerner, that even though you were queer, if it came down to saving my brown ass from yo people you would pick going with the good ol boy network, I mean what one less brown person yes? I bet you would turn your back real quick..

Yeah, you is fuckin skeery.:spider:

[VuDu]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I live in the South, have lived here my entire life. And if I see someone flying the confederate flag, I think they're probably racist.

This is where you and I differ in opinions. Aren't opinions great?

I have yet to hear any of the defenders of this flag explain why they choose to embrace something that IS considered racist, whether they are themselves.

Sorry, I thought I had explained why, but I realize that I did not explain in this thread but in another similar one in the Red Zone.

As for celebrating southern pride? I am all over that. I have a flag proposal. How about a white flag with a glass of ice tea and a big ol' chunk of my grandma's pecan pie? That works for me for celebrating my southern pride and heritage.


Sounds good to me. Again, that ONE PARTICULAR symbol doesn't represent my Pride...it just is one of the many symbols.


Also... apocalipstic, I do believe you have twisted my post around.

[Sapph]

So the guys who killed that man in Texas were not really bad good ol boys right? They were just scared and well since they were not bad people dragging his body all over Jasper Texas was just what?

A neighborly way to say hi..

Yeah, you are the kind of southerner, that even though you were queer, if it came down to saving my brown ass from yo people you would pick going with the good ol boy network, I mean what one less brown person yes? I bet you would turn your back real quick..

Yeah, you is fuckin skeery.:spider:

Have I YET to classify EVERYONE and ANY label or term I've used? I'm merely expressing my opinion and how I've related growing up in the south. I have yet to belittle you, come down on you, harass and/or attack you. It's my mistake to assume this was a forum for people to express their ideas and have an actual disgussion about it. Not verbally attack someone who doesnt share the opinions and view points as you do. I'll try to remember that next time before I post something. I'm not trying to convert people to my belief system, saying what I've been through was right or the ideal situation. I've simply been trying to communicate other ideas, something to spark disgussion. Not try to start a fight and drama. There ARE two sides to every coin yanno. No matter how you look at it, someone else in the world sees it differently.

[Hudson]

<snip>

What exactly is so wrong with leaning right in the way I vote? Isn't that what voting is about? To attempt to elect officials into office that will benefit me? Although, I am middle of the road, I do lean to the left. Healthy was a loosey used term, meaning a good dose of. The Wizards name is David Duke. I'm pretty easy to peg as a butch lesbian. I'm a walking stereotype. I get called sir often, and most realize they are wrong once I speak.

Oh, yeah, David Duke is a nice guy, as you say. Here's an example:

"Of course you know the miracle of AIDS, we all do. It's the only disease that turns fruits into vegetables."

** 1993 sound bite from Duke radio show

[TIMBERWOLF]

WOW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

the first part of this link has been discussed scroll down to "Controversy" and read from there down

http://www.rulen.com/myths/
I found this interesting

http://www.elon.edu/e-web/pendulum/Issues/2005/04_07/opinions/flag.xhtml

yet another perspective

I have read this thread and agreed with some things and disagreed with others, Isn't that why threads are create.?Sometimes I think just for argumentation purposes.I can see Sapph's opinion and belief's, Just as others that have backed up what it means to them. It doesn't mean that someones beliefs are right or wrong by "your" opinion because we don't all live by "your" opinions.When I put "yours" it means anyones not just one person.
I have to say of my own mother,being born in Mississippi with my grandparents on her side being plantation owners that my mothers Southern Pride with the Southern Cross flag had nothing to do with slavery.Her nanny was the daughter of a slave in my Grand parents home. I remember bringing home about the Civil Was in elementary school and my mom telling me a story that her nanny told her.She told me that not all plantation owners beat and raped their slaves and that in their homes they were treated with respect. Her Nanny said "Honey, they should have left us alone,we were better off". Does this mean it was right or wrong in the south?, no it just means that yes there were alot of things they left out in the Good Ole History books. Thank you Blade for these links.
With that said,Let me say that I am POC,my father is POC and when my mother died he raised the Southern White Cross flag at half mast as respect for her. While this flag raises much controversy when displayed and spoken about, this flag means respect for my mother.
We can say that there's a lot of misconstrued information in the History books that we all were taught on growing up.There were great injustices done to many POC that are not deflected in the history books as right,only one side of the spectrum.
TIMBER

[Sapph]

I have read this thread and agreed with some things and disagreed with others, Isn't that why threads are create.?Sometimes I think just for argumentation purposes.I can see Sapph's opinion and belief's, Just as others that have backed up what it means to them. It doesn't mean that someones beliefs are right or wrong by "your" opinion because we don't all live by "your" opinions.When I put "yours" it means anyones not just one person.
I have to say of my own mother,being born in Mississippi with my grandparents on her side being plantation owners that my mothers Southern Pride with the Southern Cross flag had nothing to do with slavery.Her nanny was the daughter of a slave in my Grand parents home. I remember bringing home about the Civil Was in elementary school and my mom telling me a story that her nanny told her.She told me that not all plantation owners beat and raped their slaves and that in their homes they were treated with respect. Her Nanny said "Honey, they should have left us alone,we were better off". Does this mean it was right or wrong in the south?, no it just means that yes there were alot of things they left out in the Good Ole History books. Thank you Blade for these links.
With that said,Let me say that I am POC,my father is POC and when my mother died he raised the Southern White Cross flag at half mast as respect for her. While this flag raises much controversy when displayed and spoken about, this flag means respect for my mother.
We can say that there's a lot of misconstrued information in the History books that we all were taught on growing up.There were great injustices done to many POC that are not deflected in the history books as right,only one side of the spectrum.
TIMBER


Very well put Timber. Thanks for this post. I was starting to feel slightly attacked. I try to look all the sides, and I have been simply stating myside and taking to heart others post. I like to learn about people and their trials and tribulations.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Have I YET to classify EVERYONE and ANY label or term I've used? I'm merely expressing my opinion and how I've related growing up in the south. I have yet to belittle you, come down on you, harass and/or attack you. It's my mistake to assume this was a forum for people to express their ideas and have an actual disgussion about it. Not verbally attack someone who doesnt share the opinions and view points as you do. I'll try to remember that next time before I post something. I'm not trying to convert people to my belief system, saying what I've been through was right or the ideal situation. I've simply been trying to communicate other ideas, something to spark disgussion. Not try to start a fight and drama. There ARE two sides to every coin yanno. No matter how you look at it, someone else in the world sees it differently.

Right the angry POC woman is skeery syndrome.. She can't have a civilized conversation without raising her arms and screaming and use articulate words, all she wants to do is fight.. Damn those loud people... Yeah you are a good ol boy or at least you bought the network..

You did read Emily Post's Guide to Klan Matters Manners, I feel all warm and fuzzy now...

[Admin]

Yeah, you are the kind of southerner, that even though you were queer, if it came down to saving my brown ass from yo people you would pick going with the good ol boy network, I mean what one less brown person yes? I bet you would turn your back real quick..

Yeah, you is fuckin skeery.:spider:

The_Lady_Snow,

Your post has been reported. Please leave the personal attacks out of the discussion.

This is a good debate, let's ALL try to keep it on track.
Thanks!
Admin

[The_Lady_Snow]

Oh, yeah, David Duke is a nice guy, as you say. Here's an example:

"Of course you know the miracle of AIDS, we all do. It's the only disease that turns fruits into vegetables."

** 1993 sound bite from Duke radio show


WOW I forgot how much of a nice guy he is!!! I feel like this :sparklyheart:

[The_Lady_Snow]

The_Lady_Snow,

Your post has been reported. Please leave the personal attacks out of the discussion.

This is a good debate, let's ALL try to keep it on track.
Thanks!
Admin

Really?

oy vey

[Sapph]

I know David Dukes history. I was stating that he was a nice guy to me. I'm not saying that he's a great man, that I follow his beliefs, or anything of that nature. Again, I'm stating what my experiences are like.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I know David Dukes history. I was stating that he was a nice guy to me. I'm not saying that he's a great man, that I follow his beliefs, or anything of that nature. Again, I'm stating what my experiences are like.

"I know Klansman. I have met the Imperial Grand Wizard over the South (who's actually a really nice guy, despite his short-comings)"

Since you did not imply to you, so I figured yanno him being David Duke and all and well he is after all such a great human being!!! that ya may have been saying he was..

Still smells of white privelge to me...

[suebee]

I know Klansman. I have met the Imperial Grand Wizard over the South (who's actually a really nice guy, despite his short-comings). I grew up with, and around the stereotypes of the south.
Lin

I know David Dukes history. I was stating that he was a nice guy to me. I'm not saying that he's a great man, that I follow his beliefs, or anything of that nature. Again, I'm stating what my experiences are like.



You're entitled to your opinion, but please be consistant.

[Martina]

i am of Appalachian descent. Not Southern. However, i love Southern Culture and have spent a lot of my life studying it. i have been to hundreds of events where the Confederate flag was flown. i had no problem chitchatting with the folks flying it. But i never ever took my best friend to any of these events. i would not subject him to it. i once was at a Bluegrass Festival in Milan, Michigan, and a very dark skinned East Indian man entered and walked the length of the concert area up to the front. It was between sets. The place went quiet. It seemed like every eye followed him.

The fact is that flying that flag helps create an unwelcome environment. i bet you most of the people who fly it would be happy to talk to a POC who was a lover of bluegrass or country music. But they are not likely to as long as they fly those damned flags.

WhatEVER the motivation for flying them, the effect is to create a white only space, and that is racist.

[Hudson]

I know David Dukes history. I was stating that he was a nice guy to me. I'm not saying that he's a great man, that I follow his beliefs, or anything of that nature. Again, I'm stating what my experiences are like.

I understand. He's never once tried to lynch me or burn a cross in my yard either.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I understand. He's never once tried to lynch me or burn a cross in my yard either.

Aww what a nice guy....:stillheart::sparklyheart:

[VuDu]

Right the angry POC woman is skeery syndrome.. She can't have a civilized conversation without raising her arms and screaming and use articulate words, all she wants to do is fight..

Actually your post came across as argumentative when you called Sapph one of those kind of Southerners. The post came across as attacking her yet she defends herself and you pull not only the POC card but claim your conversation was civilized (which I disagree with).

(on a side note) I am all for open discussions, opinions and listening to others. Do NOT cram your ideals and prejudices down my throat and I will do the same. I have learned a lot from this thread. I respect everyone's opinion and their reasons behind the arguments. It is wonderful that we can discuss topics such as this respectfully (for the most part).

[The_Lady_Snow]

Actually your post came across as argumentative when you called Sapph one of those kind of Southerners. The post came across as attacking her yet she defends herself and you pull not only the POC card but claim your conversation was civilized (which I disagree with).

(on a side note) I am all for open discussions, opinions and listening to others. Do NOT cram your ideals and prejudices down my throat and I will do the same. I have learned a lot from this thread. I respect everyone's opinion and their reasons behind the arguments. It is wonderful that we can discuss topics such as this respectfully (for the most part).


I am the one cramming the ideals into your throat?

:|

[Linus]

i am of Appalachian descent. Not Southern. However, i love Southern Culture and have spent a lot of my life studying it. i have been to hundreds of events where the Confederate flag was flown. i had no problem chitchatting with the folks flying it. But i never ever took my best friend to any of these events. i would not subject him to it. i once was at a Bluegrass Festival in Milan, Michigan, and a very dark skinned East Indian man entered and walked the length of the concert area up to the front. It was between sets. The place went quiet. It seemed like every eye followed him.

The fact is that flying that flag helps create an unwelcome environment. i bet you most of the people who fly it would be happy to talk to a POC who was a lover of bluegrass or country music. But they are not likely to as long as they fly those damned flags.

WhatEVER the motivation for flying them, the effect is to create a white only space, and that is racist.

Excellent point, Martina.

And I think this is the key about the flag. While for some it may feel like a sense of pride, of history to one's heritage and life -- to others it's a symbol for "you are not welcomed here ever and you will never be like us nor do we want you to be". Symbols are far more powerful than I think many of us realize. We are faced with them every day (largely from a corporate marketing point of view).

For example, if I got a swastika tattoo -- as a white man (and I've thought about it -- let me explain first) -- most people would likely scream NAZI!! The symbol has a huge heritage to it (well before the Nazis). And we are so sensitive to that symbol that I wonder how many would realize that me getting a tattoo of this symbol would be to recognize my faith:

http://www.foreigners-in-china.com/images/buddhist-religious-symbols-swastika-on-statue.jpg

This is actually would be of Buddha with a symbol of Good Luck. Whether some would realize it.. I dunno (it makes me hesitant to get it because I am white and I know how powerful that symbol is, especially on a white person).

As a novice buddhist I try to find ways to avoid causing suffering on others while still not causing suffering on myself. I know I can find another "good luck" symbol to mesh with my desire to represent my faith on myself. As a citizen within society I have responsibilities to how I am with others and know that decisions I make can include or exclude everyone. Sometimes I must exclude everyone (sorry but when I'm in the kitchen NO one comes in! The Master Baker is at work!) but there are other times when I want and believe everyone should be involved. A symbol that suggests exclusion is one I wouldn't have for that.

[Hudson]

Actually your post came across as argumentative when you called Sapph one of those kind of Southerners. The post came across as attacking her yet she defends herself and you pull not only the POC card but claim your conversation was civilized (which I disagree with).

(on a side note) I am all for open discussions, opinions and listening to others. Do NOT cram your ideals and prejudices down my throat and I will do the same. I have learned a lot from this thread. I respect everyone's opinion and their reasons behind the arguments. It is wonderful that we can discuss topics such as this respectfully (for the most part).


Wow. wow. wow.

[Legendryder]

I say take a poll. See how many think that flag is racist. Just a thought.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wow. wow. wow.

That's how nice people talk Hudson, don't cha know?:praying:

[VuDu]

Wow. wow. wow.



I knew saying that would cause some friction with someone, Hudson. That is exactly the feeling I got when reading those posts.

As a Southerner, I was feeling a bit oppressed because I was not adhering to her beliefs. Why? Because of the tone that they were stated in. She is the one that stated in every post that she is a POC yet when I state the same thing, it is looked upon negatively.

Same with that flag.

[Admin]

Actually your post came across as argumentative when you called Sapph one of those kind of Southerners. The post came across as attacking her yet she defends herself and you pull not only the POC card but claim your conversation was civilized (which I disagree with).

(on a side note) I am all for open discussions, opinions and listening to others. Do NOT cram your ideals and prejudices down my throat and I will do the same. I have learned a lot from this thread. I respect everyone's opinion and their reasons behind the arguments. It is wonderful that we can discuss topics such as this respectfully (for the most part).


Snowkisses,

Your post has NOT been reported but please dont use the "race card" as a way to discount someone's voice.

Thanks.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I knew saying that would cause some friction with someone, Hudson. That is exactly the feeling I got when reading those posts.

As a Southerner, I was feeling a bit oppressed because I was not adhering to her beliefs. Why? Because of the tone that they were stated in. She is the one that stated in every post that she is a POC yet when I state the same thing, it is looked upon negatively.

Same with that flag.

so you are comparing *me* this *POC* to a confederate flag??

The Urban Legend Continues....:bananasplit:

[apretty]

I know David Dukes history. I was stating that he was a nice guy to me. I'm not saying that he's a great man, that I follow his beliefs, or anything of that nature. Again, I'm stating what my experiences are like.

'nice' is so arbitrary: hitler was super nice when ordering his starbucks--he always tipped for a well-made latte.

no, still feels weird.

[Legendryder]

Well, ole Dave was around the time of the "kinder, gentler klan", when most of the stuff they were doing was behind the scenes, not right out in the open. Shortly after, that lady won the huge lawsuit, and it was over, for a while.

[apretty]

Snowkisses,

Your post has NOT been reported but please dont use the "race card" as a way to discount someone's voice.

Thanks.

thanks, i won't go after the card comment (cuz i rilly rilly want to) like a rabid dog.

apretty arf arf

[TIMBERWOLF]

This discussion was brought up in another thread and in light of not derailing the thread, the original question has been moved here.


I just want to know: on what "Planet" is the Confederate flag NOT racist?

I consider it to be racist. As an owner of this site, The Planet considers it to be racist.

This is where I should include a warning: Confederate flags are NOT allowed in sig lines, avatars, or the gallery.


I am, however, interested to hear discussion from folks who don't think the flag is racist. Tell me where you are coming from.

I say take a poll. See how many think that flag is racist. Just a thought.
I really IMHO can't see what a poll would do on anyone's opinion when there is many different views of this flag. Its already been put into effect what the website and owners have stated.
This is a continuances roll over discussion on person's opinions, nothing more. Whether or not one is right or I is wrong,is not a debate ,because this is not a free speech/thought site, its a owned personal site . You chose to be here by going by the rules that have laid down before you. So be gentle....
TIMBER

[Legendryder]

I really IMHO can't see what a poll would do on anyone's opinion when there is many different views of this flag. Its already been put into effect what the website and owners have stated.
This is a continuances roll over discussion on person's opinions, nothing more. Whether or not one is right or I is wrong,is not a debate ,because this is not a free speech/thought site, its a owned personal site . You chose to be here by going by the rules that have laid down before you. So be gentle....
TIMBER



Ok, I didn't see that post. Thanks.

[weatherboi]

I'm going to try to go through and reply to all the post that were made for my benefit in one post, or atleast touch on them. So sorry in advance for the length.

My choice on my meaning of the flag is akin to the reasons why anything develops the meaning it does. One person takes a meaningless drawing and says "i want to make it this", enough people join in that belief and so it is. Why cant I try to take back the meaning of the rebel flag? The Pink Triangle, the pentagram, penticle, the rock n' roll hand symbol were all once deemed to be something bad, but we put alittle intelligence behind them and made them socially acceptable again.

Are you saying if we put intelligence behind the confederate flag we will make it socially acceptable again? I can't get behind that at all.

Actually I've seen a few African Americans that had a rebel flag, mostly because it's used to represent one of the local high schools (who's mascot is a Rebel).

Really?? You can't really be correlating highschool spirit to this conversation can you?? Personally I am confident in saying those poor kids are choosing to make the best of their highschool years, probably painfully aware of its silencing existence and there is probably alot more POC at that school that choose not to agree with it and dont get behind the ongoing oppression.

What exactly is so wrong with leaning right in the way I vote? Isn't that what voting is about? To attempt to elect officials into office that will benefit me? Although, I am middle of the road, I do lean to the left. Healthy was a loosey used term, meaning a good dose of. The Wizards name is David Duke. I'm pretty easy to peg as a butch lesbian. I'm a walking stereotype. I get called sir often, and most realize they are wrong once I speak.

My point to calling out your right wing stance is to prove you aint n middle of the road guy like you stated in your original post. It is contradictory and makes no sense.

I'm well aware that the people I grew up around were/are racist. Then again they are also gun carrying, God fearing people as well. I dont own a gun (I simply dont have the need for it) and I'm atheist. I'm sure that plenty of people out there take the good from their parents and not EVERYTHING their parents taught. You learn from the mistakes of others, and not repeat the cycle. Does them being racist make them genuinely evil people. I dont think so. Perhaps misguided, misinformed, ill informed. It's the sect of society I grew up. It's not something i chose to surround myself in, but it happened.

I don't really understand your point to this paragraph here. Evil is kinda a cartoon like word for me and I find it hard to use to describe people. David Duke is a bad guy. My grandfather was a bad guy. My dad is a racist mf and a bad guy. My brother is a racist god fearing guy too...guess what, I admit he is a bad guy!! I admit/am honest to what my family is/was and realize my priviledge. I see you as the misguided, misinformed and ill informd person in the room.

Our founding Fathers,namely Washington and Jefferson, were slave owners and racist. Does this make them equally as evil? Franklin was a slave owner, but educated himself and saw otherwise, eventually freeing his own slaves. Most racism comes from fear and prejudice that is taught. It can be overcome. Doesn't mean they are nescessarily bad people.

I think it makes them bad misguided people.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Born: July 1, 1950
Residence: Mandeville, Louisiana
Organization(s): European-American Unity and Rights Organization (founder, 2001), National Organization for European American Rights (founder, 2000); National Association for the Advancement of White People (founder, 1980); Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (founder, 1974)
Education: BA, Louisiana State University
Ideology: Anti-Semitism, White Supremacy
Extremist Affiliations: Don Black, who runs Stormfront, the largest extremist Internet forum; Edward Fields, an anti-Semitic propagandist who merged his newsletter with Duke’s in 2008; and a variety of anti-Semites and white supremacists in the United States and abroad, who speak at Duke’s conferences and invite him on their radio/television shows for interviews.
Criminal Record: Imprisoned for 13 months in 2003-2004 on federal mail fraud and tax evasion convictions relating to contributions to his political campaigns
Political campaigns: In 1989, Duke won a seat representing Metairie, Louisiana, in the Louisiana State Legislature. Five unsuccessful political campaigns followed: a 1990 bid for the U.S. Senate, a 1991 campaign for the governorship of Louisiana, a bid for the Presidency in 1992, a Senatorial race in 1996, and a 1998 attempt to win a Congressional seat in Louisiana. In both the 1990 and 1991 races, he attracted a majority of Louisiana's white voters.
Works: David Duke Report newsletter; Jewish Supremacism (2002); My Awakening (1998); African Atto (1973, as Mohammad X); Finders Keepers (1976, as Dorothy Vanderbilt)

Duke has been active in the white supremacy movement for over 40 years. In the last two decades, he has tried to position himself as a new “respectable racist.” He pioneered the now common effort on the far right to camouflage racist ideas in hot-button issues like affirmative action and immigration, successfully appealing to race and class resentments. He was instrumental in the Klan resurgence of the 1970s and was one of the first neo-Nazi and Klan leaders to stop the use of Nazi and Klan regalia and ritual, as well as other traditional displays of race hatred, and to cultivate media attention. Duke continues to write articles and books, to convene conferences, and to speak publicly for the purposes of demonizing Jews and other minorities.


Gosh he is so cuddly

:awww:

[apretty]

I think it makes them bad misguided people.

true.

either way there's no possible way on earth people think like this, i just don't even believe it. we're totally being punked, i just know it.

(and i live in az where my governor declared a prayer day last month to solve the economic crisis!)

[Write14u]

true.

either way there's no possible way on earth people think like this, i just don't even believe it. we're totally being punked, i just know it.

(and i live in az where my governor declared a prayer day last month to solve the economic crisis!)

Georgia can top you...Gov. Sonny Perdue prayed in 2007 on the Capitol steps in Atlanta for rain to end the drought. I think he got what he wanted. LOL

A former colleague wrote this (http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/living/columnists/chris_johnson/story/1012265.html)funny rebuttal to it.

Sorry for the derail.

[weatherboi]

Write14u...thanks for your feedback and I gave it some thought.

I think telling me I am stepping out on history is a little rough. I think it is safe for me to infer the ideals behind people that were motivated to opress another group of people. So the history books state that they designed it to show a difference on the battlefield. I have read it over and over. I get that pretty little picture is comfortable to believe. This is no interpretation, I am just choosing to see the deeper darker meaning to it along with the rose colored wikipedia explanation as well. I think believing the racism was attached later minimizing how systemic racism is in this country!!!

My southern pride comes in the form of putting it back in anybody's face that wants to deny the racism associated with this flag...the original one and the kkk's version *shrug*. Then I have pie!!!

Again. Disagree.
There were a whole lot of reasons the war was fought. And yes, there were many oppressionists who simply wanted to retain that way of life that included slavery. However, you're inferring way too much -- and stepping out on history with your own interpretation here. The troops simply needed a battle flag where they could tell the difference between Northern and Southern troops.

The racism and hatred that goes along with this flag was attached later.

I hate that the South can not let go of this one symbol. Dylan is absolutely right about the meanings and associations that are attached to this flag, just as many of the same ones were attached to swaztikas.

I have yet to hear any of the defenders of this flag explain why they choose to embrace something that IS considered racist, whether they are themselves.

As for celebrating southern pride? I am all over that. I have a flag proposal. How about a white flag with a glass of ice tea and a big ol' chunk of my grandma's pecan pie? That works for me for celebrating my southern pride and heritage. [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

[TIMBERWOLF]

Write14u...thanks for your feedback and I gave it some thought.

I think telling me I am stepping out on history is a little rough. I think it is safe for me to infer the ideals behind people that were motivated to opress another group of people. So the history books state that they designed it to show a difference on the battlefield. I have read it over and over. I get that pretty little picture is comfortable to believe. This is no interpretation, I am just choosing to see the deeper darker meaning to it along with the rose colored wikipedia explanation as well. I think believing the racism was attached later minimizing how systemic racism is in this country!!!

My southern pride comes in the form of putting it back in anybody's face that wants to deny the racism associated with this flag...the original one and the kkk's version *shrug*. Then I have pie!!!

Again. Disagree.
There were a whole lot of reasons the war was fought. And yes, there were many oppressionists who simply wanted to retain that way of life that included slavery. However, you're inferring way too much -- and stepping out on history with your own interpretation here. The troops simply needed a battle flag where they could tell the difference between Northern and Southern troops.

The racism and hatred that goes along with this flag was attached later.

I hate that the South can not let go of this one symbol. Dylan is absolutely right about the meanings and associations that are attached to this flag, just as many of the same ones were attached to swaztikas.

I have yet to hear any of the defenders of this flag explain why they choose to embrace something that IS considered racist, whether they are themselves.

As for celebrating southern pride? I am all over that. I have a flag proposal. How about a white flag with a glass of ice tea and a big ol' chunk of my grandma's pecan pie? That works for me for celebrating my southern pride and heritage. [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]
I have yet to hear any of the defenders of this flag explain why they choose to embrace something that IS considered racist, whether they are themselves.
I defend it as to my mother it was not about slaves,racist,KKK but because she was proud to be from the south, and I respected her for her thoughts and opinion.I never had Ice Tea until I was 19 now i live on it *S*..........
TIMBER

[weatherboi]

timberwolf what does my post have to do with your response please?? My post was referring and responding to Write14u's post to me...not anything about you?


I have yet to hear any of the defenders of this flag explain why they choose to embrace something that IS considered racist, whether they are themselves.
I defend it as to my mother it was not about slaves,racist,KKK but because she was proud to be from the south, and I respected her for her thoughts and opinion.I never had Ice Tea until I was 19 now i live on it *S*..........
TIMBER

[TIMBERWOLF]

timberwolf what does my post have to do with your response please?? My post was referring and responding to Write14u's post to me...not anything about you?
Im sorry weatherboi, I was quoting your post
I have yet to hear any of the defenders of this flag explain why they choose to embrace something that IS considered racist, whether they are themselves.
When I had responded to that part of it.
TIMBER

[Toughy]

I never have had this question answered.....

What is it about the South that is represented by the Confederate Flag that you are proud of?

Is it that it's the symbol of treason?

Is it that it's about slavery?

Is it that it's about war?

What is it that you are proud of?? Don't tell me 'sweet tea' or 'hospitality' or 'simplicity' or 'moonshine' because none of that has anything at all to do with the Confederate Flag.

[PearlsNLace]

I will never forget the absolute fear on my sons face one night when we happened to be leaving a grocery store as a pic up truck with a confederate flag on the back parked right next to us.
We were a white woman, and essentially since Eric is over 6 feet tall, a black man, getting into a car together.
His fear became mine. We got into the car quickly and without confrontation.
The damage was done to our peaceful enjoyable evening. Eric was quite for a couple of DAYS after that.

I thought I understood racism before Eric came into my life. I learned I knew nothing, nothing at all until I began seeing it through HIS eyes.


And funny, now that I am dating someone Jewish, Im learning more about anti-semitism than the reading, the going through the museums, could ever teach me.

Maybe its that internalized feature. I can educate myself, and have done so. But until I find a way for that hate and fear to be pointed at me, I just dont have a clue. I am certainly no expert on racism/hate/prejudice and I dont mean to imply that the very limited exposure to these challenges of my white privilidge have made me one. I just want to share what I have learned.

One of the things posting in forums has taught me is to speak from my "i" space, and to not lean towards the default generalizations I grew up with.
Part of how I have learned to do that is by looking at where my perspective has been created.
I could just leave a quipy one liner like- "the day my black son feels comfortable waving a confederate flag is the day Ill agree its not racist" but that really doesnt say everything I mean.

[Semantics]

I never have had this question answered.....

What is it about the South that is represented by the Confederate Flag that you are proud of?

Is it that it's the symbol of treason?

Is it that it's about slavery?

Is it that it's about war?

What is it that you are proud of?? Don't tell me 'sweet tea' or 'hospitality' or 'simplicity' or 'moonshine' because none of that has anything at all to do with the Confederate Flag.


Let me go grab my copy of Confederate Revisionism for Dummies.

Says right here if sweet tea, hospitality, simplicity, and moonshine don't work just smile and say bless your heart. :)


In all seriousness, those are questions I've never heard answered by anyone other than confederate apologists.

[weatherboi]

That particular sentence came from Write14u's post timberwolf but my quote thingys got losst somehow.

Im sorry weatherboi, I was quoting your post
I have yet to hear any of the defenders of this flag explain why they choose to embrace something that IS considered racist, whether they are themselves.
When I had responded to that part of it.
TIMBER

[Gentle Tiger]

Thank you for sharing your post PearlsNLace. There's nothing like being close to another person's shoes or standing in them.

[Toofrufru]

I am proud to be southern.
I am not and could never be proud of anything that I know brings pain to another human being. Period!

[Dylan]

It's interesting that the confed flag's 'meaning' and 'symbolism' is a very whitened-up version...yet, most POC in this particular (let alone the bajillion other conversations off of this site) conversation have stated it means something completely different

If we take the white version, it's just a bunch of nice (white) boys sittin' around sippin' mint juleps on a warm muggy summah night. It has to do with heritage and workin' hard and 'knowin' where ya' come from' and all o' that. Somehow the fact that the flag's creation stemmed from a WAR about SLAVERY (i.e. racism at it's most overt) is completely watered down to the point that the flag never even represented anything to do with slavery...just fightin' the good fight ('cuz ain't no yankee gonna tell us we can't have them slaves). The history is always about some hard-workin' group of folks who *may* have owned slaves (blatantly participated in overt racism...blatantly participated in slavery), but that overt participation can be overlooked. Because, we 'still kept on much of 'the help', because they were such hardworkers'. I mean, "We always treated our slaves real good". We treated 'em so good in fact, that One's caretaker was a direct descendant of One's family's plantation. It almost sounds quaint. And in the white version, while there's an admittance that 'racism is bad'...it's also excusable...some racists are even 'really nice guys'.

Apparently, the racism contained in those statements is 'excusable'.

'Excusable racism'

Yet, if we take the non-white version, it's a symbol which induces fear. It's a symbol of hatred. It's a symbol of racism. It's a symbol that may get you killed. It's a heritage that speaks of Jim Crow. It's a history of slavery and being treated as property. Of lynchings. Of unspeakable brutality. Of being separated from family. Of being sold off. Of (in some cases)(against One's will) being forced to fight in a war that kept One oppressed. There's no talk of sipping iced teas or mint juleps. "Workin' hard" takes on a bit of a different meaning, no? It represents a bus boycotts, separate water fountains, separate restrooms, being harrassed by men in white sheets, desegregation; protests in which One's peers were beaten, murdered, chased by dogs, imprisoned unjustly, rigged trials, etc. Of subhuman treatment. Of second class citizenship. And a slew of other inexcusable injustices tied to racism.

'Inexcusable racism'

So, I don't understand (as Bulldog said) WHY we're supposed to take the white version of the story (which ONLY benefits whites), believe leaders of hate groups are 'nice guys', and roll with the idea that the confed flag has such a fantastic history.

It kind of sounds like those folks who want me to forget the Holocaust ever happened (even though I grew up with stories of nazis and family members being hunted down, chased, and killed).

It just doesn't make sense to me.


Dylan

[HowSoonIsNow]

From someone who lives in another country than the U.S.A., I think that if (I do think it would be a majority) Canadians see folks with a Confed. flag on their car (and I live in a border town)...well, even the MOST conservative of us, would think that is a racist symbol and either cringe silently or outwardly say to other passengers in said car...OMG, look at that!?! Like, WTF!


People would be looking VERY askance at that car--we DO think that flag is STEEPED in racist history (and it is!) and couldn't possibly understand WHY anyone would want others--their fellow citizens!--to have such a VISIBLE reminder (esp. those who live it each day) of slavery's devastating legacy.

[Write14u]

Write14u...thanks for your feedback and I gave it some thought.

I think telling me I am stepping out on history is a little rough. I think it is safe for me to infer the ideals behind people that were motivated to opress another group of people. So the history books state that they designed it to show a difference on the battlefield. I have read it over and over. I get that pretty little picture is comfortable to believe. This is no interpretation, I am just choosing to see the deeper darker meaning to it along with the rose colored wikipedia explanation as well. I think believing the racism was attached later minimizing how systemic racism is in this country!!!

My southern pride comes in the form of putting it back in anybody's face that wants to deny the racism associated with this flag...the original one and the kkk's version *shrug*. Then I have pie!!! [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]


[COLOR=Blue]I defend it as to my mother it was not about slaves,racist,KKK but because she was proud to be from the south, and I respected her for her thoughts and opinion.I never had Ice Tea until I was 19 now i live on it *S*..........
TIMBER

timberwolf what does my post have to do with your response please?? My post was referring and responding to Write14u's post to me...not anything about you?

Weatherboi, I think Timber was actually responding to me as well...but clicked on your post as it quoted about half of mine.

I rarely use Wiki for anything more than amusement. I'm just saying that's a big leap in logic to say that a flag was designed for racism. I'm not saying there weren't some fighting who weren't racist, who weren't there simply to defend having slaves. I'm saying that's a big amount of credit to give one piece of cloth from the instant it was made.


Dylan, I agree with everything you've said in this discussion. Please don't lose me here by mocking Southern accents in a way that implies Southerners aren't as smart because of the way we talk. Thanks!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Has anyone heard Dylan speak??

He has quite a drawl, I mean Texas is down south yanno compared to say, Michigan..

Drawls don't happen often up there that I know of:scorp:

[HowSoonIsNow]

.....

It's a symbol of racism. It's a symbol that may get you killed. It's a heritage that speaks of Jim Crow. It's a history of slavery and being treated as property. Of lynchings. Of unspeakable brutality. Of being separated from family. Of being sold off. Of (in some cases)(against One's will) being forced to fight in a war that kept One oppressed. There's no talk of sipping iced teas or mint juleps. "Workin' hard" takes on a bit of a different meaning, no? It represents a bus boycotts, separate water fountains, separate restrooms, being harrassed by men in white sheets, desegregation; protests in which One's peers were beaten, murdered, chased by dogs, imprisoned unjustly, rigged trials, etc. Of subhuman treatment. Of second class citizenship. And a slew of other inexcusable injustices tied to racism.

'Inexcusable racism'

It just doesn't make sense to me.


Dylan

Although I agree with all your post, Dylan, this part struck me so much. I hope that is ok to post some of a post (?).

For me, your words convey exactly what this horrid flag represents.

I am at a loss as to how people can still uphold it as a symbol of good, a symbol of heritage -- this symbol -- (signs and symbols are huge in creating meaning(s) in societies) when it is, actually, one that is embedded with the legacy of humans wanting to maintain the right to OWN other humans as chattel. You can't get around that fact.

I don't understand *the other side* of this argument at all.

[Write14u]

One thing I will add is this: I think people who aren't from the South don't understand some of the generational issues with the confederate flag/racism. This is actually directed more toward racism than the flag.

Like many of the Southerners who have participated on this thread, I grew up hearing my grandparents use the N-word or the equally distasteful "colored people." While not excusing that generation nor condoning the things I heard said, I do understand it. Lack of education and isolationism play into much of it. We can take the high road on this but that's coming -- for many of us -- from a place with much more exposure (Can you say the Internet) and education. I know that I had to unlearn a lot of the stuff I was exposed to in my youth. I know my grandparents didn't have those same opportunities and grew up using the only words they were given.

That said, I still don't have any love for the confederate flag. No matter the reason anyone chooses to fly it, it is still considered a racist symbol. And as I said earlier, if a symbol is going to make anybody I know upset or afraid or be used to oppress them, then I can't condone its use. I can find other ways to express my pride in how I was raised.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I love Alabama, the people can be great, others not so much, truthfully I don't want to live there, I love the South sometimes, others I am like ugh, never though has that flag held any kind of heritage for me...

[weatherboi]

Write14u-
I am not making a big leap in logic!! It doesnt take a rocket scientist to deduce that the flags origins are reaped in racism. At that point any other significance in its meaning is moot and lost. It doesnt take a brainiac to figure out that people who continually defend this flag have white priviledge issues!! Dude the South was fighting for the right to secede and the right to own slaves. All the other reasons were smoke screens. The south was a region that made its money off the backs of slaves and they didnt want to give up their comfy exsistence. The convictions of these men to preserve their right to oppress is very disturbing. "For Cause and Comrades: Why Men Fought in the Civil War" by Dr. James McPherson explores both North and South sides.

Weatherboi, I think Timber was actually responding to me as well...but clicked on your post as it quoted about half of mine.

I rarely use Wiki for anything more than amusement. I'm just saying that's a big leap in logic to say that a flag was designed for racism. I'm not saying there weren't some fighting who weren't racist, who weren't there simply to defend having slaves. I'm saying that's a big amount of credit to give one piece of cloth from the instant it was made.


Dylan, I agree with everything you've said in this discussion. Please don't lose me here by mocking Southern accents in a way that implies Southerners aren't as smart because of the way we talk. Thanks!

[Write14u]

Weatherboi, not once have I defended the flag. Not a big fan of it. Just sayin.

I respect that the flag is steeped in racism.
But do you honestly in your mind hear a conversation between soldiers on the battlefield as going like this, "Yo dude, check out this cool new flag we have. The *beep* are gonna hate this."

Really? Really?

Write14u-
I am not making a big leap in logic!! It doesnt take a rocket scientist to deduce that the flags origins are reaped in racism. At that point any other significance in its meaning is moot and lost. It doesnt take a brainiac to figure out that people who continually defend this flag have white priviledge issues!! Dude the South was fighting for the right to secede and the right to own slaves. All the other reasons were smoke screens. The south was a region that made its money off the backs of slaves and they didnt want to give up their comfy exsistence. The convictions of these men to preserve their right to oppress is very disturbing. "For Cause and Comrades: Why Men Fought in the Civil War" by Dr. James McPherson explores both North and South sides.

[Write14u]

Has anyone heard Dylan speak??

He has quite a drawl, I mean Texas is down south yanno compared to say, Michigan..

Drawls don't happen often up there that I know of:scorp:

Heh! Texas isn't from the South. It's an entity of its own! LOL

[BullDog]

I've been reading and rereading this thread for a few days now without posting. I wanted to really think this through and not just react. My experience includes being a black woman and a black man. Growing up in the city of of Boston where racism is subtle but lethal and attending Bible School and Seminary in Columbia, SC where racism was blatant and clear in some areas but also sweet and quite dangerous in other areas. I have had my share of experiences with those who were proud of the confederate flag - with some who clearly wanted me silenced and with others who claimed to be my christian brother or sister protesting every step of the way that we are all equal and yet who made it clear by their actions and decisions that white was always right.

I was trying to remember if I had had any positive first hand experiences with the confederate flag or those who loved them; if I had any encounters where the flag represented at that moment what its original meaning had been. And I have to say I have had NONE! I wish that I could say that wasn't the case even on the evangelical christian campus - I caused quite a bit of controversy by the speeches and debates confronting bigotry while there (I know those who know me are surprised). I will never forget the sticker flag on my car and mirror busted after I gave a presentation calling for the real church, the one where all are equal; that Jesus demonstrated to stand up during a Black History Month chapel. Maybe it was equating those who practice bigotry in the church with the Pharisees and Saducees who also practiced classism, sexism, bigotry etc. Maybe that was a little over the top. *smirk*

I get what the flag represented at one time in history. And I understand that each person has a right to freedom of speech as a citizen of this country. I get that a person has a right to express themselves on their property. But I didn't get and still don't get how the confederate flag was proudly waved over the capitol building that is supposed to represent EVERYONE; knowing that the meaning of the symbol had changed and we were in different times.

But what always irked me, and this thread showed me that I am still vexed is the expectation/belief by those who embrace the confederate flag today that I must go through the mental and emotional exercise to believe for the good - that their pride is good. I would be told that I shouldn't assume the worst; I should be open to the possibility that they're pride means me and those like me no harm. I am supposed to do this even though erring on the side of caution could cost me my life. I was expected to change my attitude and adapt to their definitions, their beliefs. Why?

And yet these individuals felt no need to do any sort of exercise and think what their action pertaining to this flag could be saying to those different from themselves. There was no willingness to put themselves in my shoes. There was no willingness to expand their minds as they were expecting us to do with their viewpoint. And to suggest that they do so was clearly not my place. Why is that? I never was one to stay inside the lines.

Sorry to be so long winded but this really hit a nerve. And that is a good thing. We must continue to think, discuss, take action and grow. We must be willing to put those things aside that hinder growth.

*the gentle tiger steps down from the soapbox and looks for something to eat*

I really would like to know how the few white Southerners here who think that the Confederate flag is ok or part of your Southern heritage/pride have an answer to this post- particularly the parts in bold.

You are asking us to do mental gymnastics and not assume the worst (which as GT rightly pointed out could be extremely dangerous) and just block out all the racism, hatred, and brutality associated with this flag so you can feel good about your *white* Southern pride, but you are not willing to look at yourselves and why you feel good about this despite all the damning evidence around you?

[SuperFemme]

Karen Russell (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-russell)

Posted: May 16, 2007 01:45 AM


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On What Planet Is The Confederate Flag NOT Racist? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-russell/on-what-planet-is-the-con_1_b_48573.html)


On what planet is the Confederate Flag NOT racist? Here on Planet Earth, the Klan (http://columbiacitypaper.com/2007/5/15/part-ii-on-the-campiagn-heil) uses the Confederate Flag as symbol of white supremacy. Get a clue. If the Klan is using your symbol (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html), it's racist.

To deny that it is racist is to deny common sense and to ignore recent history. The flag enjoyed a huge renaissance during the Civil Rights era. Angry, white Southerners brought it back to show they weren't going to take this whole desegregation thing lying down. They adopted it again as a symbol of hatred and defiance. They dusted it off to terrorize blacks who had the audacity to fight Jim Crow laws.

I'm just not buying the "it's a heritage thing" crap. Heritage IS hate. It's like those kids throwing Fried Chicken and Watermelon parties on Martin Luther King day and then faking like they didn't know their party would offend anyone. "Dude, you are taking this burning cross thing totally the wrong way! We were just making s'mores. You know, to honor Dr. King."

C'mon people. Get serious. We disagree with you but that doesn't make us stupid.
I don't care if private citizens want to get Confederate flag tattoos, to wear those dumb looking trucker hats and make bogus ten million dollar eBay bids on the General Lee (http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/11/autos/general_lee_back_on/). Just don't fly the flag on state property and use tax dollars to pay guards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America) to keep it safe.

Flying the Confederate Flag on state grounds is shameful. Voters in Southern states shouldn't be paying to fly terrorist flags. Here's a news tip! The South LOST. Since when do losers get to fly their flag? Losers don't get to fly their flag. It's in the loser rule book, "Rule #3. You Lose. Now take down your flag." Ditch the Confederate license plates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Confederate_Veterans) too, while you're at it.

The Confederate Flag enjoyed a renaissance during Reconstruction, during the Civil Rights Era and now at the Republican debate. And by holding their debate in South Carolina, the GOP sent a 'dog whistle' message to voters - the Southern strategy is on (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070212/moser). Big time.

Did you catch John McCain flip-flopping on the flag flap (http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2007/05/the_gop_at_war_.html)?"In South Carolina, the state that will hold the first Southern primary election in January, local issues permeate the contest as well. McCain was painfully reminded in this debate that, during his bid for the GOP nomination in 2000, he had argued that flying the Confederate flag atop the state Capitol in Columbia was a matter for the state to decide -- only to return to the state later to concede that he had taken a politically expedient stance and he regretted it.
Now, with that flag moved to a monument in front of the Capitol, he was asked, should South Carolina be free to fly the Confederate flag from state buildings?

"It is not flying on top of the Capitol,'' McCain said tonight. "Yes, I was wrong when I said that I believed that it was up to the state of South Carolina... Now after long negotiation... there is agreement that that flag no longer flies on top of the state Capitol... Almost all parties involved in those negotiations believe that is a reasonable solution... I support it... I think it is time we all moved on that issue.''"
When asked about the Southern strategy, infamous GOP consultant Lee Atwater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Strategy) said this:"You start out in 1954 by saying, "N*****, n*****, n*****." By 1968 you can't say 'n*****'--that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me--because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N*****, n*****."

The GOP needs to lock down the South to win the Presidency and it could get ugly. "Call Me Harold" and "Barack The Magic Negro" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-russell/) might end up looking like Valentines when this is all over.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-russell/on-what-planet-is-the-con_1_b_48573.html

[weatherboi]

Yes I do believe conversations exsisted on the battlefield that inferred the flag symbolizes their hate towards POC. It happens today so why wouldnt have happened then???? I dont think it came in the form of the surfer style talk you so describe here but in some other oppressive form or fashion. Did you even take a look at the book I listed or is that more than an effort to educate? I thought you might be motivated by something mre than wiki!!


Weatherboi, not once have I defended the flag. Not a big fan of it. Just sayin.

I respect that the flag is steeped in racism.
But do you honestly in your mind hear a conversation between soldiers on the battlefield as going like this, "Yo dude, check out this cool new flag we have. The *beep* are gonna hate this."

Really? Really?

[QueenofQueens]

Once upon a time there was a young nation divided between industrialization and agriculture. Those in favor of industrialization "employed" children and immigrants, unable to advocate for themselves for pennies per day. The captains of industry worked these defenseless souls like dogs, for hours and hours in inhumane and unsafe conditions.

Those in favor of agriculture enslaved people from other nations and forced them to work their land for little more than subsistence and at great cost to their dignity, families, cultures, and physical well being. Meanwhile, the indigenous people of the young nation had been subjected to what in many cases amounted to genocide. Among those who managed to survive, many were forced into relocation in inhospitable lands where very little would grow or thrive. But, the nation didn't care about them then, and still doesn't now, so let's just ignore them, as usual, and go on with our story...

One day the industrialists determined that while you could in good conscience exploit and abuse other human beings, you could not in good conscience own them. The industrialists had stopped doing that years ago and found the continued practice by the agriculturists gauche. A vote was taken and it was determined that the agriculturists could no longer own, like cows, their free source of human labor.

The agriculturists did not cotton to this idea (pardon the pun) and determined to secede from the nation and keep things exactly the way they were and had always been because that's the way they liked it. They justified their own inhumanity by conferring less than human status upon their slaves, and had pretty much convinced themselves that they were just a bunch of good ol' boys and gals.

The industrialists, sensing the sharks from other lands circling their crumbling nation, decided to fight the agriculturists in a bloody, horrifying war that killed hundreds of thousands of people. Mostly just so that the wheels of industry and vis a vis capitalism could keep on rollin' unencumbered. By maintaining the facade of an ideological crusade, they were much more likely to garner support in their battle to maintain the Union at any cost. So ending slavery became their clarion call. And it worked.

The agriculturists lost the war.
They could not keep everything just the same as it was.
They now became subject to terrible exploitation and rapine.
perhaps as agriculturists, they should have known that you reap what you sow. No,nothing ever stays the same, and that's usually a good thing.

The agriculturists, defeated, and unable to acknowledge the brutality of the legacy they had tried to preserve, wrapped themselves nostalgically in the symbol of their failure.

That symbol never meant anything but trying to maintain slavery because maintaining slavery is how the Antebellum South was able to survive for so long, unhampered by anything as vexing or unsettling as change.
That symbol will never evolve into something new because it's soaked in very dubious nostalgia, and a romanticized past the recollection of which omits egregious cruelty and the blood of the dead and the enslaved.

It's time to let it go.
It's time to stop waving that goddamn flag and acting like it means ANYTHING other than wanting to justify your hatred of another race and your shame at being defeated in a war that happened 150 years ago (by people whose own heritage deserves extreme scrutiny too).
The South is never, ever, ever going to be the same as it was. And that is one thing we can ALL be thankful for.

At the end of the day, if we're really trying to coexist in a nation as diverse as ours, regional pride, quite simply, doesn't mean shit .

[Martina]

The flag is hostile. It is frightening. It's an implicit threat. The people who fly it are willing for those meanings to be there. i think that's wrong.

But this anti-southern stuff is dull. Most southerners are not nostalgic or deluded about the south's racist past. i think northern folks are a lot less self-examined about their own racism, truth be told.

[Bob]

I'm a Southerner (a 7th-generation Louisianian, but now in Minnesota). I don't fly the rebel flag. I have a degree in history with a focus on the antebellum period. I don't fly the rebel flag because of it's associations, both historical and current. (I've been shocked by how many Confederate flags I've seen here in the Twin Cities...on vehicles, mostly.) This isn't intended as a justification for those who fly it, however ignorantly, but to immediately ascribe vile motives for their doing so seems rather presumptuous.

I think some southerners cling to it for no other reason than they don't like being told what to do by knowitall outsiders. (I.e., "Yankees', which in Louisiana also includes people from Shreveport.)

"[The mind of the South's] salient characteristic is a magnificent incapacity for the real, a Brobdingnagian talent for the fantastic. The very legend of the Old South, for example, is warp and woof of the Southern mind. The "plantation" which prevailed outside the tidewater and delta regions was actually no more than a farm; its owner was, properly, neither a planter nor an aristocrat, but a backwoods farmer; yet the pretension to aristocracy was universal. Every farmhouse became a Big House, every farm a baronial estate, every master of scant red acres and a few mangy blacks a feudal lord. The haughty pride of these one-gallus squires of the uplands was scarcely matched by that of the F. F. V’s ["First Families of Virginia"] of the estuary of the James. Their pride and their legend, handed down to their descendants, are today the basis of all social life in the South." (W.J. Cash, http://www.wjcash.org/WJCash1/WJCash/WJCash/THE.MIND.OFTHE.SOUTH.html)

That was written in 1929, and I would argue that it's still relevant today. That doesn't excuse the neo-Confederate-ism of many current flag-wavers, but to dismiss the roots of what many people refer to as 'pride in their heritage' (and why) is to dismiss any chance of meaningful dialogue. I do believe in the idea that geography shapes identity, and for many people, their place of birth is a strong identifier. The Confederate flag in this context is a convenient (if misguided) signifier of this pride of place.

[Apocalipstic]

Also... apocalipstic, I do believe you have twisted my post around.

Sorry you feel that way.

I was trying to follow your post to it's logical (for me) conclusion.

If You are afraid of POC because of bad experiences with POC, why am I not afraid of white people?

Because an individual white person raped me, not every white person on the planet.

The person was bad, not the entire race. I put myself in a bad situation and what happened happened.

I do admit to avoiding red-neck large menacing looking white men and women on a visceral level when I am alone, so I get that based on your experiences your body might react without you actually wanting it to.

Do you think that your insistence on flying the rebel flag is based on this reaction rather than logic? and that maybe it does more harm than good in making the world a better place for all of us?

[AtLast]

Symbols. I'm not much into them myself. But there's not much doubt - whatever the confederate flag might have been at one time - what it's used for primarily now. It reeks of the worst of the south. It taints the south. I can't believe this thread popped up again!

Unfortunate, but true. It has become something very different which isn't fair to southern culture & heritage in the main.

P.S The confederate flag is used here in Canada too. There's not much doubt as to what it symbolizes here, 'cause southern pride ain't real big around these parts.

Interesting to hear this concerning Canada.

Hey NJFemmie!! Hi!!
Do you think the guys that thought up the flag werent racist when they created it?? They were, and it doesnt matter how many pretty words that were put into our history books about the development of it. The ideals behind the south and fighting that civil war was over racism. It stands to say that the flag holds those same values...Racism values. The racist idiot troops avdopted it because of that exact significance!!! It is a racist symbol from birth!!!

Yup, black slavery is racist, no matter how you look at it! However, I do honestly feel that there exists a blanket stereotype about the south and racism - ie., all southern whites must be racists. Goofy thinking when so very many southern whites stood up for the Civil Rights acts in the 1960's. Sometimes I don't think people realize just how dangerous this was for them. No, I am not comparing this to the dangers African Americans were subjected to as activists (and forever) at the time.... just noting that whites supporting civil rights were not exactly embraced. Take a look at the processes of Lyndon Johnson as the southern president connected with the Civil Rights Acts.

There is too much controversy surrounding this flag. It was a battle flag, that was adopted by the KKK and other racist groups. It didn't start as a racist flag, but it's history is convoluted and the attached propaganda made it what it has become.

Good point, I think and does actually point to what frustrates a lot of southern white people. But, the ugliness it ended up representing (fairly, or not) lingers throughout the US, structurally. Just think Jim Crow!

Actually, I see value in this topic re-emerging.... one of those things that should not be forgotten or debated as there is not an institution in the US that has not been affected by racism predicated on black slavery. As a US citizen, I would love this to go away. But, I believe we need to continually recognize how it continues to hurt us all. Just as Native American cultures were disrespected and ripped from their land should never be forgotten.

[christie]

While I am not a confederate flag advocate, I can't help but wonder why we don't have the same negative reaction to our US Flag in relation to our treatment of Native Americans and also the treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII?

I just think its an interesting thing to think about...

[Apocalipstic]

While I am not a confederate flag advocate, I can't help but wonder why we don't have the same negative reaction to our US Flag in relation to our treatment of Native Americans and also the treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII?

I just think its an interesting thing to think about...

My answer, for me, is that NeoNazi and White Supremacist groups have not adopted the flag as theirs.

Yes, horrible things have happened at the hands of US citizens and yes under the US flag. I wonder if outside the US people look at the US flag with the same horror I look at the Confederate Flag. I think in some places people do and we need to work and vote to make sure these types of things never happen again.

Great question Avocado! :)

[Martina]

"[The mind of the South's] salient characteristic is a magnificent incapacity for the real, a Brobdingnagian talent for the fantastic. The very legend of the Old South, for example, is warp and woof of the Southern mind. The "plantation" which prevailed outside the tidewater and delta regions was actually no more than a farm; its owner was, properly, neither a planter nor an aristocrat, but a backwoods farmer; yet the pretension to aristocracy was universal. Every farmhouse became a Big House, every farm a baronial estate, every master of scant red acres and a few mangy blacks a feudal lord. The haughty pride of these one-gallus squires of the uplands was scarcely matched by that of the F. F. V’s ["First Families of Virginia"] of the estuary of the James. Their pride and their legend, handed down to their descendants, are today the basis of all social life in the South." (W.J. Cash, http://www.wjcash.org/WJCash1/WJCash/WJCash/THE.MIND.OFTHE.SOUTH.html)

That was written in 1929, and I would argue that it's still relevant today.

Not only do i think that's bad history, i don't agree with it. i do not think most southerners feel pride in the plantation south. What i like about southern culture is how smart it is, how very aware they are of the past and how very mixed their feelings about it are.

Here are some Drive-By Trucker lyrics --



THE SOUTHERN THING

Ain't about no hatred better raise a glass
It's a little about some rebels but it ain't about the past
Ain't about no foolish pride, Ain't about no flag
Hate's the only thing that my truck would want to drag

You think I'm dumb, maybe not too bright
You wonder how I sleep at night
Proud of the glory, stare down the shame
Duality of the southern thing . . . .

I heard the story as it was passed down
About guts and glory and Rebel stands
Four generations, a whole lot has changed
Robert E. Lee
Martin Luther King
We've come a long way rising from the flame
Stay out the way of the southern thing
--------------------

from Three Great Alabama Icons

I grew up in North Alabama, back in the 1970's, when dinosaurs still roamed the earth…
Speaking of course of the Three Great Alabama Icons… George Wallace, Bear Bryant and Ronnie Van Zant… Now Ronnie Van Zant wasn't from Alabama, he was from Florida… He was a huge Neil Young fan… But in the tradition of Merle Haggard writin' Okie from Muskogee to tell his dad's point of view about the hippies ‘n Vietnam, Ronnie felt that the other side of the story should be told. And Neil Young always claimed that Sweet Home Alabama was one of his favorite songs. And legend has it that he was an honorary pall bearer at Ronnie's funeral… such is the Duality of the Southern Thing…

And when I first ventured out of the South, I was shocked at how strongly Wallace was associated with Alabama and its people . . . . And Wallace spent the rest of his life trying to explain away his racist past, and in 1982 won his last term in office with over 90% of the black vote… Such is the Duality of the Southern Thing… And George Wallace died back in '98 and he's in Hell now . . . because in his blind ambition and his hunger for votes, he turned a blind eye to the suffering of Black America.
------------------

[BullDog]

I personally have not seen a lot of anti-Southern sentiment in this thread. The people clinging to the flag are the ones attaching it to their Southern pride/heritage. There are also plenty of other Southerns who have said they don't need or want the flag to be proud Southerners. As a non-Southerner I am questioning why your pride/sense of heritage has to be attached to such a vile symbol not the fact that you are proud Southeners.

[Martina]

I personally have not seen a lot of anti-Southern sentiment in this thread. The people clinging to the flag are the ones attaching it to their Southern pride/heritage. There are also plenty of other Southerns who have said they don't need or want the flag to be proud Southerners. As a non-Southerner I am questioning why your pride/sense of heritage has to be attached to such a vile symbol not the fact that you are proud Southeners.

There's been a lot of condescending stuff said. Telling people that regional pride doesn't mean shit!!??? Telling people they know what they think and how they feel and to get over it. That's annoying to say the least. People have been doing that to southern and rural people for a long time.

[Write14u]

Yes I do believe conversations exsisted on the battlefield that inferred the flag symbolizes their hate towards POC. It happens today so why wouldnt have happened then???? I dont think it came in the form of the surfer style talk you so describe here but in some other oppressive form or fashion. Did you even take a look at the book I listed or is that more than an effort to educate? I thought you might be motivated by something mre than wiki!!


Didn't quite get that book ordered and read since last night, but I did look at what I could find by googling it.

My only point of contention here, Weather, is that you're giving way too much credence to a piece of cloth at its inception and too little credit to Southerners. You're basically implying that every Southerner hates black people and have since the beginning of time and finally, by god, found a way to make a flag to symbolize this.

Here's a good post from hotprof from the thread where this topic originally came up: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24024&postcount=40
There are several good links about the making of the flag.



The racist idiot troops avdopted it because of that exact significance!!! It is a racist symbol from birth!!!

Again, the ONLY thing I'm pointing out/disagreeing with is the notion that a piece of cloth designed to represent troops on the battlefield inherently was racist. The people in the fight might have been, but that piece of cloth wasn't. It didn't become racist in nature until people started using it while commiting atrocities against an entire race of people (which is different and separate from the atrocities of war, which is where the flag originated.)

Please don't ascribe hatred/racism to me that isn't there.

[Rockinonahigh]

This morning on the history chanel they were doing a slave ship wreck discovery.They were talking to a group of slave decendents and one of them said that we must acknoledge slavery happened it shouldnt define who we are nor should we contenue to let it stop us from moveing on to betterment.
One things I need to mention hear is ....dont forget that our founding fathers brought many white indentured servants to this country to work,they were not treated any better than any other servant/slave.Yes they could eventualy work out theier servatude as many blacks did.Thre were many free blacks in the states both north and south long before and after the civil war.
Infact the c.w. wasnt fought over slaves it was over taxation,slavery was far less profitable and would have been over in another fue years,infact it was far better to hire ppl to work that purchase,house and care for slaves.
The slavery issue should never have happened ever,no one should hold another person in bondage in any form for any reason even tho the practis has been going on since the dawn of time...it will contenue somewhere in the world till the lights go out no matter how hard it is to get rid of.
Im tired of the south being slamed for the sins of ppl who lived 150 odd years ago.Remember reconstruction??? How the northern oficials/army/ carpet baggers ect came to the south and distroyed what was left...read ur history cause if u have any access to southern history books u will find out what happened.Lots of bad shit went on from both sides wich wasnt right...oh I forget the concoures history is supose to be correct...never let anyone know how they treated ppl when it was over.
This is 2010,can we just move on?Lets build a better world than before without diging up the past.
This is all I have to say on this subject.Btw,I dont own a confederate flag,dont have one on anycar/truck.I'm just sick and tired of the south being slamed for what happened.

[BullDog]

There's been a lot of condescending stuff said. Telling people that regional pride doesn't mean shit!!??? Telling people they know what they think and how they feel and to get over it. That's annoying to say the least. People have been doing that to southern and rural people for a long time.

Guess I haven't seen it. My focus is on the few that are clinging to the flag and wondering why. They are the ones who appear to be attaching it to a sentimental bygone past despite how vile of a symbol it is. Most Southerners do not fly it.

Also the focus seems to be on white Southern history/culture only.

[weatherboi]

Write14u-

When did I ascribe hatred/racism to you?? Seriously if you are that sensitive to my words I would think you may want to dig deeper!!

Of course I didn't expect you to run out and buy a copy of the book. *Sheesh* Snark much?

Uhhhh I never implied every Southerner hates black people. I don't think that way. I will defend that I think most if not all white Southerners need some white priviledge and racism diversity training. Personally I think it should start in school with the truth about our history.

I have read a book on the making of the flag for college...a Southern studies class. I don't need any help in that arena but I appretiate the offer.

Your idea of way to much creedence is my idea of being blatantly honest even if you disagree. I didnt attach the symbol that comes with the flag. History and hate did that all on it's own. I am just the loud reminder when people wanna blow up about how it can be something other than a symbol of hate.

I am totally amused at the fact that you have latched on to my thoughts and feelings on this subject. There are other souls in denial that need schooling in this thread.

The fact is the Prussian artist hired to design the flag originally well he knew the reasons behind creating it. The Southern army stood behind that symbol and passionately fought to keep the right to oppress. Still today the South is steeped with systemically oppressive commuities designed to enslave people to living paycheck to paycheck because of regional low wage traditions, bad municipal transportaion facilities and social service budgets that can only be designed to band aid somebody's situation. Whatever it may be!!

The link you left I was already familiar with from the original inception of this thread but thanks.

I think it is a slap in the face of POC to deny that flag didnt not symbolize hate before all the emergence of the idiot troops came along and made it that way. Really???Really???



I think my lucky queer mother fucking ass stars that we did not win that war!!!








Didn't quite get that book ordered and read since last night, but I did look at what I could find by googling it.

My only point of contention here, Weather, is that you're giving way too much credence to a piece of cloth at its inception and too little credit to Southerners. You're basically implying that every Southerner hates black people and have since the beginning of time and finally, by god, found a way to make a flag to symbolize this.

Here's a good post from hotprof from the thread where this topic originally came up.There are several good links about the making of the flag.




Again, the ONLY thing I'm pointing out/disagreeing with is the notion that a piece of cloth designed to represent troops on the battlefield inherently was racist. The people in the fight might have been, but that piece of cloth wasn't. It didn't become racist in nature until people started using it while commiting atrocities against an entire race of people (which is different and separate from the atrocities of war, which is where the flag originated.)

Please don't ascribe hatred/racism to me that isn't there.

[QueenofQueens]

The flag is hostile. It is frightening. It's an implicit threat. The people who fly it are willing for those meanings to be there. i think that's wrong.

But this anti-southern stuff is dull. Most southerners are not nostalgic or deluded about the south's racist past. i think northern folks are a lot less self-examined about their own racism, truth be told.


Hey Martina, I guess you missed the parts of my post that indict the North for its history of indentured servitude and child labor. I think generally speaking, that the colonialist history of the United States in nothing to be proud of, North, South, East or West.
My post was not anti Southern. To construe it as such equates my meaning as defining being Southern with cleaving to the Confederate Flag as a beloved symbol. I do NOT equate all Southerners to those people who choose to make a symbol of hate their beacon of belle days past. My post is quite simply, anti regional pride and anti nostalgia for anything that doesn't deserve to be romanticized or remembered with fondness. The memory of slavery deserves nothing but shame.
Racism is insidious in our country, it exists everywhere in all forms. However the only specific, iconic symbol directly reflecting our abominable history of slavery is the rebel flag. Rather than bury it, it is embraced as a symbol of pride in a very specific region of the U.S. It is still gleefully waved from flag poles ( a HUGE one over I-4 in Florida as I recall) and displayed proudly on T-shirts, cars and trucks all over the Southern United states. I've lived in many regions of the U.S. and the waving of the rebel flag is most definitely peculiar to the the South. No other region of the United States uses such symbolism to emphasize, well anything. Wisconsin has no cheese flag, for instance. And no where in the North does anyone raise a banner for child labor as a fond remembrance to Edwardian days past.
I will reemphasize my final point, regional pride to me (no matter where you live in the country) is hooey. Glorifying a symbol that was raised to maintain slavery is grotesque. To me it all amounts to nothing more than a sort of hyper focused nationalism, which never leads anywhere good, *cough* the Reichstag*cough*.

[Greyson]

A good ole boy and a Klansmans are two completely different things. That would be like saying a butch and a FTM are the same thing. They are not.


I can see that some of your thoughts here in this thread are not popular. I am not going to comment on those thoughts, opinions. Not in this post anyway.

However, you knew that was coming, right? The sentence I have highlighted, I disagree. I won't go into it in this thread because it is not specific to gender. I think you should read the reams of posts on this very topic of gender here on this site and the other site. You may be somewhat surprised to see it is not so black and white. No pun intended.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yanno I have family in Alabama still, some of them not so nice.. It is perturbing to hear southern folk not check their privelege, not realize that the south is not all about plantations, sweet tea, sweet potato pie and good ol boys hangin' out at the corner cafe..

Not far from where my folks live, there are some pretty scary towns, I personally have made the mistake of going into certain bars feeling out the situation and wonder "oh fuck" why why did I agree to come here..

It's some ugly history folks, people were disappearing left and right, hangings, women raped, that piece of cloth you wanna call a flag, it has stood for not pride but slavery, hangings, beatings, whoopins, raping, I mean I could go on and on.

When you deny this happened you are trying to deny a helluva lotta folks their history...

I hate to say it but white man history is romanticized, is full of machismo and it makes a helluva lot of excuses for what was done to a whole race.. I dunno how you can expect to pretty that up with cotillions and debutante balls... It's just rude to try...

[Bob]

Maybe a little off-topic (doesn't mention the Confederate flag), but interesting nonetheless:

"How to Raise Racist Kids:"

Step One: Don’t talk about race. Don’t point out skin color. Be “color blind.”
Step Two: Actually, that’s it. There is no Step Two.
Congratulations! Your children are well on their way to believing that <insert your ethnicity here> is better than everybody else!


http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2010/02/how-to-raise-racist-kids/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Ind ex+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

[Apocalipstic]

Yanno I have family in Alabama still, some of them not so nice.. It is perturbing to hear southern folk not check their privelege, not realize that the south is not all about plantations, sweet tea, sweet potato pie and good ol boys hangin' out at the corner cafe..

Not far from where my folks live, there are some pretty scary towns, I personally have made the mistake of going into certain bars feeling out the situation and wonder "oh fuck" why why did I agree to come here..

It's some ugly history folks, people were disappearing left and right, hangings, women raped, that piece of cloth you wanna call a flag, it has stood for not pride but slavery, hangings, beatings, whoopins, raping, I mean I could go on and on.

When you deny this happened you are trying to deny a helluva lotta folks their history...

I hate to say it but white man history is romanticized, is full of machismo and it makes a helluva lot of excuses for what was done to a whole race.. I dunno how you can expect to pretty that up with cotillions and debutante balls... It's just rude to try...

I have spoken in the Red Zone about how I feel about the whole Cotillion/Southern Belle thing. I think it hearkens to a really scary time, and I bristle (into a full on porcupine) at the mere suggestion that I might be an SB becasue I live in Nashville.

Yes, I have an accent.

Also, yes, there are very scary towns I won't go into at night, we just know not to. More than once Cynthia and I have driven into a parking lot in a small town, looked around and said....nahhhhh....not worth it to go in, let's get outta here. I could sit here and name scary towns in TN all day.

Nashville is a cool place, but still there is that horrible flag and statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on the way to Franklin, I want to scream every time I see it.

Passes a Diet Coke :)


Maybe a little off-topic (doesn't mention the Confederate flag), but interesting nonetheless:

"How to Raise Racist Kids:"

Step One: Don’t talk about race. Don’t point out skin color. Be “color blind.”
Step Two: Actually, that’s it. There is no Step Two.
Congratulations! Your children are well on their way to believing that <insert your ethnicity here> is better than everybody else!


http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2010/02/how-to-raise-racist-kids/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Ind ex+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

Yes!

[Martina]

The North has arrogance. The reason some purveyors of cultural arrogance in the north don't think of themselves as separate and assert their regional pride is that they are hegemonic. They think that they define what it is to be American, so they don't need to establish identity. They think that everyone should be and wants to be just like them. They assume that failure to be like them is, in fact, a failure.

American culture has a history of denigrating the south. Southerners are considered backward, unintelligent, and violent. People feeling a pride in who they are as southerners is, in part, a reaction to that. There are cultural differences. Telling people not to feel pride in them means what?

The south is not like the north. The culture has been very different. And most southerners do not have that unmediated pride in their cultural heritage that many Americans do, which makes them MORE sophisticated and reflective.

Expressing pride through using the Confederate flag is racist and hostile. i do not apologize for it. i do not like it.

Southern cultural products, however, tend to face the truth of their lives. They do not romanticize or apologize. They face class. They face race. They face religion and failure. They face violence and loss of innocence. They are ahead of us in many ways because they spent so much time behind us -- poor, rural, neglected, denigrated.

Barry Hannah
Larry Brown
Harry Crews
Reynolds Price
Randall Kenan
Lee Smith
Cormac McCarthy

[Apocalipstic]

The North has arrogance. They reason some purveyors of cultural arrogance in the north don't think of themselves as separate and assert their regional pride is that they are hegemonic. They think that they define what it is to be American, so they don't need to establish identity. They think that everyone should and wants to be just like them. They assume that failure to be like them is, in fact, a failure.

American culture has a history of denigrating the south. Southerners are considered backward, unintelligent, and violent. People feeling a pride in who they are as southerners is, in part, a reaction to that. There are cultural differences. Telling people not to feel pride in them means what?

The south is not like the north. The culture has been very different. And most southerners do not have that unmediated pride in their cultural heritage that many Americans do, which makes them MORE sophisticated and reflective.

Expressing pride through using the Confederate flag is racist and hostile. i do not apologize for it. i do not like it.

Southern cultural products, however, tend to face the truth of their lives. They do not romanticize or apologize. They face class. They face race. They face religion and failure. They face violence and loss of innocence. They are ahead of us in many ways because they spent so much time behind us -- poor, rural, neglected, denigrated.

Barry Hannah
Larry Brown
Harry Crews
Reynolds Price
Randall Kenan
Lee Smith
Cormac McCarthy

I do agree that people in the North are not free from racism nor was there zero slavery in the North, it just was earlier and people all over the world wore cotton clothing from plantation cotton and they knew where it came from.

They did not just have indentured servants in the North, they had slaves. NYC was the main market for slavery for many years. Look up why it stopped.

Southern cites are more integrated, I agree. I was shocked in Chicago and Detroit by how separate everything is.

Still I do not and will not fly the Confederate Flag and I try to avoid having anything to do with anyone who does.

I am a bit sensitive about the South because when I go to my G/F's family I get to hear about how much the South sucks...in my mind I think "but you all moved down here and look how well you have done...STFU". But I don't, I just add a little bourbon to my Diet Coke.

[Linus]

Barry Hannah
Larry Brown
Harry Crews
Reynolds Price
Randall Kenan
Lee Smith
Cormac McCarthy

As a non-American, I'm a bit confused as to why these individuals are referenced or how they play into the discussion. Could someone clarify for me?

[Lusciousblondefemme]

I need to add my two cents for just a minute .. I am confused with the flag that you are talking about ... The true confederate flag was called the Stars and Bars flag... It actually very closely resembled the American Flag .. it had the blue square with 7 stars in it and 2 red stripes and one white ...

The flag that is actually the controversial one is called the Rebel Flag or Battle Flag ... and the reason that it came about was because people were confusing the actual Confederate Flag and the American Flag during the Battle at Bull Run..

MY father is a history buff so i learned when i was young the difference between the two. I have always referred to the Rebel Flag the one with the blue X with the 13 stars in it as that the Confederate Rebel Flag.

I understand where everyone is coming from and I too when I see the Rebel Flag do see it for what i have come to learn through others as a symbol of hatred. Unfortunately the hate groups are more well known for flying this flag then the ones that fly it for reasons to do with their heritage and freedom.

Yes the flag itself is just made of cloth.. truly it isnt the flag that is the problem it is how it is being used that causes people to see it as racist symbol. Unfortuantely you do not see many people flying this flag who are just normal everyday people. You automatically associate it with KKK, and neo-nazi's.

The flag was originally was meant to symbolize the resistance of the South to the North's political ways. In the 50's and 60's during the Civil Rights Movement it became a symbol of racism.

It saddens me that a symbol that was supposed to stand for something that people felt at the time was a good thing has now come to be a symbol of such hatred. It causes many debates and fights among people to this day.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and to those of you that were born and raised in the South .. you have every right to see the flag the way you do.. You were rasied with this in your history and your families see it for the good that it was not for the symbol or hatred that it has been used for since the 50 and 60's.

[Martina]

As a non-American, I'm a bit confused as to why these individuals are referenced or how they play into the discussion. Could someone clarify for me?

They are southern writers who grapple with their culture in real ways. There are dozens of others.

[Apocalipstic]

I need to add my two cents for just a minute .. I am confused with the flag that you are talking about ... The true confederate flag was called the Stars and Bars flag... It actually very closely resembled the American Flag .. it had the blue square with 7 stars in it and 2 red stripes and one white ...

The flag that is actually the controversial one is called the Rebel Flag or Battle Flag ... and the reason that it came about was because people were confusing the actual Confederate Flag and the American Flag during the Battle at Bull Run..

MY father is a history buff so i learned when i was young the difference between the two. I have always referred to the Rebel Flag the one with the blue X with the 13 stars in it as that the Confederate Rebel Flag.

I understand where everyone is coming from and I too when I see the Rebel Flag do see it for what i have come to learn through others as a symbol of hatred. Unfortunately the hate groups are more well known for flying this flag then the ones that fly it for reasons to do with their heritage and freedom.

Yes the flag itself is just made of cloth.. truly it isnt the flag that is the problem it is how it is being used that causes people to see it as racist symbol. Unfortuantely you do not see many people flying this flag who are just normal everyday people. You automatically associate it with KKK, and neo-nazi's.

The flag was originally was meant to symbolize the resistance of the South to the North's political ways. In the 50's and 60's during the Civil Rights Movement it became a symbol of racism.

It saddens me that a symbol that was supposed to stand for something that people felt at the time was a good thing has now come to be a symbol of such hatred. It causes many debates and fights among people to this day.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and to those of you that were born and raised in the South .. you have every right to see the flag the way you do.. You were rasied with this in your history and your families see it for the good that it was not for the symbol or hatred that it has been used for since the 50 and 60's.

I just want to interject that not everyone raised in the South agrees that the rebel flag (I would rather not post a picture of the one we are discussing) is a good thing.

[Lusciousblondefemme]

I just want to interject that not everyone raised in the South agrees that the rebel flag (I would rather not post a picture of the one we are discussing) is a good thing.


Do Not take my post as saying that everyone in the South is proud of the flag .. I just stated that if you are than i am sure it is for the right reasons and not for the hateful ones.

Let me apologize if anyone else took anything in my post to mean that I said everyone in the South agrees with the Rebel Flag.

[Apocalipstic]

The flag we have a problem with is the "Southern Cross", not the "Stars and Bars" which resembles the US flag, nor the "Bonnie Blue".

[Apocalipstic]

Do Not take my post as saying that everyone in the South is proud of the flag .. I just stated that if you are than i am sure it is for the right reasons and not for the hateful ones.

Let me apologize if anyone else took anything in my post to mean that I said everyone in the South agrees with the Rebel Flag.

:) Thank you! Just wanted to make sure the distiction was made.

Also a history buff!

[NJFemmie]

QUOTE=Lusciousblondefemme;51078
The flag was originally was meant to symbolize the resistance of the South to the North's political ways. In the 50's and 60's during the Civil Rights Movement it became a symbol of racism. /quote

I am no civil war buff, but I do know some history... the South wanted to keep things the way they were ... with slavery. The North was honestly no better - because Northerners did have slaves - (even had slaves after the South no longer did) but the issue was that the Northern states (Lincoln) didn't want the slavery to spread out to other states - and the South was opposed to that. Yes, there were other factors to the war - but if I remember correctly, this initial resistance was focused on the South not being able to expand out and keep their slaves as owned property. The North was progressively moving forward industrially speaking, and the South wanted to keep things the they were.

[Odarlin]

...

At the end of the day, if we're really trying to coexist in a nation as diverse as ours, regional pride, quite simply, doesn't mean shit .
I see a baby going out with the bathwater.

Isn't regional pride international? Don't people maintain their regional pride when they go to other countries from the USA or, possibly more importantly,come from other countries to the USA?

I feel this statement as a face value generality is impoverishing to the diversity of the USA.

[Apocalipstic]

QUOTE=Lusciousblondefemme;51078
The flag was originally was meant to symbolize the resistance of the South to the North's political ways. In the 50's and 60's during the Civil Rights Movement it became a symbol of racism. /quote

I am no civil war buff, but I do know some history... the South wanted to keep things the way they were ... with slavery. The North was honestly no better - because Northerners did have slaves - (even had slaves after the South no longer did) but the issue was that the Northern states (Lincoln) didn't want the slavery to spread out to other states - and the South was opposed to that. Yes, there were other factors to the war - but if I remember correctly, this initial resistance was focused on the South not being able to expand out and keep their slaves as owned property. The North was progressively moving forward industrially speaking, and the South wanted to keep things the they were.

It amazes me sometimes how many people really don't realize that the North had slaves too, it was not just a Southern issue.

It also amazes me how many people in the South still call the Civil Wat the "Wawer uuve Soahtheren Agresshon" (war of southern agression) and how differently US history is taught in different parts of the US.

[Apocalipstic]

I see a baby going out with the bathwater.

Isn't regional pride international? Don't people maintain their regional pride when they go to other countries from the USA or, possibly more importantly,come from other countries to the USA?

I feel this statement as a face value generality is impoverishing to the diversity of the USA.


When I go outside the US I pretend I'm not from the States. It's safer. My parents taught me that as a small child and it has served me well.

Yes, I think it is important to know our history and heritage though. :)

[NJFemmie]

It amazes me sometimes how many people really don't realize that the North had slaves too, it was not just a Southern issue.

It also amazes me how many people in the South still call the Civil Wat the "Wawer uuve Soahtheren Agresshon" (war of southern agression) and how differently US history is taught in different parts of the US.

I hear you there ... a lot of people don't realize that Lincoln was not opposed to slavery. Yes, he eventually freed the slaves, but it wasn't something he thought up on his own. He didn't want the South to be "powerful" - should they have expanded and continued the way they did. (Which is why he did not want the slavery to spread to other states).

[christie]

What has amazed me about this thread is that we, in my opinion, are spending an enormous amount of energy bickering back and forth, ensuring that we retell our version of history.

From where I sit, one only needs to know it in order to not repeat it. Any more than that, to me, is overkill.

I am a Southerner. I couldn't deny that any more than I can deny that I am tall. There are things about my southern heritage that I don't embrace or condone. The "rebel flag" is just one of them.

My family consists of homophobes and racists. Period. There are things that we just don't talk about because I respect their right to be uninformed, un-evolved and ignorant. They use the "N" word, along with any other derogatory, inflammatory racial slur at their disposal. They respect my right not to think the same as they do and to speak a different language.

Jess has a brother who vehemently flies his rebel flag... yet worries that the outdoor metal star adorning the side of our house means that we are devil worshipers.

Jess's sister has a rebel flag bandana on her nightstand. Its next to the bed she shares with her African American boyfriend.

We don't try to educate them that it’s racial and hurtful. We don't try to tell them that, in our experience, those who embrace that flag are also homophobes. We live and let live.

I don't see how this heated debate is going to change anyone's mind about how they feel about this flag and what it represents. I am optimistic that we can agree to live and let live, choosing the battles with one another in areas and with persons who are open to the diversity of ideas.

This post isn't meant to be silencing to anyone who feels a need to continue the debate and by all means, have at it. Just don't be surprised if the ones who fly the flag proudly with their own reasons don't come around to the idea that it’s just wrong to the majority.

[SassyLeo]

I'm not questioning your stance on racism. I was asking why, if One knows the flag is used by so many hate groups, One would want to be associated with the symbol.

I mean, if you know you're going to get mistaken for a member of a hate group, simply because you're waving their symbol around, why then complain if people associate you with a hate group?

Again, if I waved a swastika around, I would expect people to associate me with Nazism...ergo, I couldn't really complain if people pointed at me and said, "Hey, look at the Nazi"

So, my shortened question, why wave a symbol you KNOW is associated with a hate group and then complain when people think you're associated with a hate group?


Dylan

Right.

However, if I fly the swastika, no one's going to say, "Hey, look at the really peaceful pagan!"

Nope, because hardly anyone knows where the swastika came from. But everyone knows the Nazis used it, and that it was a symbol for them.

It's been branded.

Just as the confederate flag has been branded by hate groups.


Dylan

Yes!!!

This is the crux of it FOR ME. Of course, I have some interest in knowing how the flag came about, the original intent and origins of it's meaning... but over the years it has been ADOPTED, just like the swastika to mean something completely different.

So in some ways I can understand someone feeling emotionally connected to the "Southern Pride" aspect of a flag and feeling proud of being Southern...and the heritage, etc.

BUT NOW, in this day and age, it has a negative connotation.

I'm a Jew. Prior to Hitler, I may have felt indifferent about the swastika. I actually have a fair amount of interest in East Indian beliefs, philosophies, values, etc. So, I would find it interesting that the words' origin is derived from the Sanskrit (link-if you want more info (http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_050314.htm)). It meant good, like feeling good, or good luck.

But Hitler made it AWFUL. He adopted it to mean something different...and in fact, the complete opposite of its original intention.

So, do you think I am gonna post swastikas around my house or car because I know the original meaning was good? No fucking way.

[Apocalipstic]

What has amazed me about this thread is that we, in my opinion, are spending an enormous amount of energy bickering back and forth, ensuring that we retell our version of history.

From where I sit, one only needs to know it in order to not repeat it. Any more than that, to me, is overkill.

I am a Southerner. I couldn't deny that any more than I can deny that I am tall. There are things about my southern heritage that I don't embrace or condone. The "rebel flag" is just one of them.

My family consists of homophobes and racists. Period. There are things that we just don't talk about because I respect their right to be uninformed, un-evolved and ignorant. They use the "N" word, along with any other derogatory, inflammatory racial slur at their disposal. They respect my right not to think the same as they do and to speak a different language.

Jess has a brother who vehemently flies his rebel flag... yet worries that the outdoor metal star adorning the side of our house means that we are devil worshipers.

Jess's sister has a rebel flag bandana on her nightstand. Its next to the bed she shares with her African American boyfriend.

We don't try to educate them that it’s racial and hurtful. We don't try to tell them that, in our experience, those who embrace that flag are also homophobes. We live and let live.

I don't see how this heated debate is going to change anyone's mind about how they feel about this flag and what it represents. I am optimistic that we can agree to live and let live, choosing the battles with one another in areas and with persons who are open to the diversity of ideas.

This post isn't meant to be silencing to anyone who feels a need to continue the debate and by all means, have at it. Just don't be surprised if the ones who fly the flag proudly with their own reasons don't come around to the idea that it’s just wrong to the majority.

Laughing about the metal star! :) I have heard that we worship the devil because of all the skulls we have (think Shakespeare, not Satan). One person even thinks the walls in our house breathe. Seriously?

OK, so I am on a TON o' cold medicine and feeling a bit argumentative....soooo?

I do get that we are unlikely to change anyone's mind about this and that arguing is pointless, but today I feel like engaging.

You will like this....one day Cynthia's sister referred to a time "back when Antioch was nice before it was called LA"....sigh. I showed her a topographical map where one can clearly see that a part of Antioch is called "Lower Antioch" not because of the heritage of the people who live there, but because it is a ginormous gully.

[TIMBERWOLF]

Slavery existed and still does exist in many nations in the world today. It's never been just a Northern/Southern thing. Its true that because of our history rather right or wrong, the Southern Cross flag has been the bunt of the White Supremacy aspiration of trying to control hatred,racialism,just as Hitler tried with the swastika with a symbol of peace. And I don't know of anyone posting here that hasn't heard or knew what most people think about either symbol. What is trying to be said is that maybe the Southern Cross flag means different things to people not just about hatred or racialism. Like we can agree to disagree on what it means to the individual, but it still comes down to the individual,not what you say or what they say. And really who's business is it what an individual thinks,whether they are right or wrong.
Our Rainbow flag we wave so proudly, can bring anger, resentment and loath to those that don't believe in "our" cause,and I can tell you being Butch that I am discriminated against because of the way I look.
No one has all the answers or have walked a mile in someone elses shoes or moccasins.
TIMBER

[Jess]

It seems there may be two really good discussions going on here, perhaps more.

My take on the one: The confederate flag as a symbol of racism is that yes, it is widely viewed as such in most areas of this country. Even in the South by folks who have been exposed to enough to know it has been a hurtful image to people of color, different ethnicities, homosexuals, various religions through it's use by the KKK and some neo-nazi groups.

I don't fly one, own one, support any business that does ( or has an employee that has one visible). To include NASCAR: this is a link to a picture, but not the actual "flag" image.

http://forums.the-dispatch.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9071076365/m/1031086188

apocolipstic mentioned not seeing the US flag as a symbol of hate, but those same KKK guys carry it right alongside their beloved stolen symbol for hatred.

http://www.southernmessenger.org/images/KKK4.jpg

The second passionate discussion going on is that of regional( specifically Southern Pride). Perhaps it is part of the culture of surviving oppression from "big government" that spurs on some of that very fueled "pride".
The South is the only "region" to have been overtaken by the Government as many times as it has. A)The civil war was spurred on by the notion of removing a state's right to mandate their own laws. Yes, this was in part due to slavery, it was also in part due to taxes and tariffs being levied by the much more industrialized North. The North actually prolonged and furthered the use of slave labor in this manner.
B) The use of government troops to contain and oppress coal miners during the mining wars.
C) The removal from their homes and forced "assimilation" of the Melungeons of the Appalachias. Forced genetic cleansing that did happen in this country, to breed the "color" out.
D) The creation of a government agency to remove "stills" during prohibition.
E) The use of government troops to control civil riots during the 50's and 60's.

These are just a few events that may have furthered some of the great sense of pride from southerners.

Are there racists here still? yes. Are there racists in EVERY other part of this country and world? yes.

I am proud to be from the South. It has it's very unique set of challenges which have helped mold me into a fairly well rounded person.

I think racism comes from fear. Folks are afraid of what they don't understand or relate to. I think there has been a surge in racism ( overt as well as covert) with the outsourcing of jobs and the rising number of immigrants who have fled there homeland looking for a "better" life. I look around the area I am from ( and have recently moved back to) and the unemployment rate is insane. There are factories closed and bulldozed over or overgrown with weeds. Most have all but closed down and have moved their manufacturing overseas. This is no excuse for racism. As I see it, we're all in the same boat.

The social services offices here have an almost equal number of applicants from all of the represented "races" who live here. That should be telling enough.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Where I used to live eons ago was a gatehouse apartment on a horse farm. Under my apartment was where the horses were kept. I had a small area in there for my car, so it was protected from the weather. On one side was a pool, and on the other side was a screened in porch that I had access too.

One night I was just getting in after spending the day with my adopted sister. She was with me, thank God above. That night I had a very strange feeling. Well, as it turns out, I hit the mark. At dusk, I saw across the field a cross being set up, and later on that night it was set on fire by mobs of KKK folks. My sister was scared to death. I just thanked God that I didn't bbq our dinner by the pool. I didn't want to draw attention to our being there. To witness this, it really made me feel such agony. And sadness.

Everyone has the right to what they believe and what they want to express. What I experenced was hate. To this very day, my adopted sister gets the goosbumps just thinking about it, and she married a black man. I just shake my head at the KKK. They are hate.

Andrew

[Apocalipstic]

It seems there may be two really good discussions going on here, perhaps more.

My take on the one: The confederate flag as a symbol of racism is that yes, it is widely viewed as such in most areas of this country. Even in the South by folks who have been exposed to enough to know it has been a hurtful image to people of color, different ethnicities, homosexuals, various religions through it's use by the KKK and some neo-nazi groups.

I don't fly one, own one, support any business that does ( or has an employee that has one visible). To include NASCAR: this is a link to a picture, but not the actual "flag" image.

http://forums.the-dispatch.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9071076365/m/1031086188

apocolipstic mentioned not seeing the US flag as a symbol of hate, but those same KKK guys carry it right alongside their beloved stolen symbol for hatred.

http://www.southernmessenger.org/images/KKK4.jpg

The second passionate discussion going on is that of regional( specifically Southern Pride). Perhaps it is part of the culture of surviving oppression from "big government" that spurs on some of that very fueled "pride".
The South is the only "region" to have been overtaken by the Government as many times as it has. A)The civil war was spurred on by the notion of removing a state's right to mandate their own laws. Yes, this was in part due to slavery, it was also in part due to taxes and tariffs being levied by the much more industrialized North. The North actually prolonged and furthered the use of slave labor in this manner.
B) The use of government troops to contain and oppress coal miners during the mining wars.
C) The removal from their homes and forced "assimilation" of the Melungeons of the Appalachias. Forced genetic cleansing that did happen in this country, to breed the "color" out.
D) The creation of a government agency to remove "stills" during prohibition.
E) The use of government troops to control civil riots during the 50's and 60's.

These are just a few events that may have furthered some of the great sense of pride from southerners.

Are there racists here still? yes. Are there racists in EVERY other part of this country and world? yes.

I am proud to be from the South. It has it's very unique set of challenges which have helped mold me into a fairly well rounded person.

I think racism comes from fear. Folks are afraid of what they don't understand or relate to. I think there has been a surge in racism ( overt as well as covert) with the outsourcing of jobs and the rising number of immigrants who have fled there homeland looking for a "better" life. I look around the area I am from ( and have recently moved back to) and the unemployment rate is insane. There are factories closed and bulldozed over or overgrown with weeds. Most have all but closed down and have moved their manufacturing overseas. This is no excuse for racism. As I see it, we're all in the same boat.

The social services offices here have an almost equal number of applicants from all of the represented "races" who live here. That should be telling enough.

Great post Jess!

I was trying to say that yes, bad things have happened in the name of the USA and under our flag and to many people it likely is a huge symbol of hatred....however it is the flag of my country and at this point, I respect that. I am deeply horrified by many things in US history especially those involving torture and concentration camps.

I will say that I don't fly the US flag either except on Farmtown, because Cynthia had a fit that I just had the flag of Argentina on there and I caved.

[Jess]

Great post Jess!

I was trying to say that yes, bad things have happened in the name of the USA and under our flag and to many people it likely is a huge symbol of hatred....however it is the flag of my country and at this point, I respect that. I am deeply horrified by many things in US history especially those involving torture and concentration camps. Sad, and true. Thank you for getting that I wasn't "picking on your post" , just a response.

I will say that I don't fly the US flag either except on Farmtown, because Cynthia had a fit that I just had the flag of Argentina on there and I caved. That sounds like queer pressure to me!

[Andrew, Jr.]

Jess,

The Nascar Races in Dover, DE are huge. And the Confederate Flag is flown all over town. In and out of the race track, on the RV's who are there for the weekend, etc.

Also, where I live alot of folks have the Confederate Flag as a sticker, and they have that posted on their truck, SUV, or car. Then you have the license tag covers with the Confederate Flag colors all around the plate. And you have no clue as to who is in the KKK, and who is not.

Andrew

[Odarlin]

While I am not a confederate flag advocate, I can't help but wonder why we don't have the same negative reaction to our US Flag in relation to our treatment of Native Americans and also the treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII?

I just think its an interesting thing to think about...

There are a not minute number of people who do, in my experience, for those and many current/recent policies.

[Toughy]

Black Africans sold Black Africans from different tribes into slavery. Those slaves were shipped all over the world and bunches were sold in the US. Free Blacks living in the South (Louisiana first comes to my mind) owned Black slaves. Poor white sharecroppers owned a slave or two. The landed gentry of the south owned slaves. Our 'founding fathers' owned slaves. Slavery is not something that appeared all of the sudden only in the southern parts of the US. It existed in the US before America was 'discovered'. It has existed all over the world as long as we have had written history and probably before written history. My sincere hope/dream is we somehow can wipe slavery off the face of this earth in my lifetime.

I don't care which Confederate Flag is being talked about. Both of them are symbols of treason and an attempt to split the US into at least 2 different countries. Both are symbols of racism to the Klan and other ignorant folks in all parts of the US and are purposely displayed because of that. It should not be flown anywhere in the US. period. full stop.

I still want to know what parts of southern heritage folks are proud of that is represented by either of the
Flags.

edited to add:
If I see that flag, I ALWAYS assume (and nothing will ever change this assumption) the person displaying it IS a racist, bigoted, homophobic, sexist asshole who does not deserve to be a citizen of this country. There is no justification for displaying that flag.

[Write14u]

Ummm, there's one thing I've noticed over the past 5-7 pages of this discussion. The people who are proudly displaying the confederate flag have pulled an Elvis, ie, they've left the building. *grin*
Seems like the rest of us are just arguing some tit for tat on things like regional pride. The remaining crowd seems to agree that confederate flag = bad/racist.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.

P.S. Weatherboi, you crack me up. We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't see it your way until such time as it can be proved that all the men fighting for the South were racist and sat there and decided that a bit of blue here, a red cross there, toss on some stars yon...well that made a flag fearsome and racist. I'm thinking if they meant to make the flag menacing from the get go, maybe a cross and skull like a pirate ship. Bottom line for me: Attached meaning makes a symbol loathesome. All that was happening with that battle flag at the start was battlefield issues. The terrorism (and hence the attached hatred/racism) came a bit later.
Feel free to PM me if you'd like to continue a debate, but this is detracting from the issue at hand, I feel.

[weatherboi]

personally i find both flags menacing

my points are definitely on target to the topic of the thread and i think you are deflecting by trying to call our conversation distracting *shrugs* i am used to that from people who are in denial

take care...no hard feelings

Ummm, there's one thing I've noticed over the past 5-7 pages of this discussion. The people who are proudly displaying the confederate flag have pulled an Elvis, ie, they've left the building. *grin*
Seems like the rest of us are just arguing some tit for tat on things like regional pride. The remaining crowd seems to agree that confederate flag = bad/racist.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.

P.S. Weatherboi, you crack me up. We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't see it your way until such time as it can be proved that all the men fighting for the South were racist and sat there and decided that a bit of blue here, a red cross there, toss on some stars yon...well that made a flag fearsome and racist. I'm thinking if they meant to make the flag menacing from the get go, maybe a cross and skull like a pirate ship. Bottom line for me: Attached meaning makes a symbol loathesome. All that was happening with that battle flag at the start was battlefield issues. The terrorism (and hence the attached hatred/racism) came a bit later.
Feel free to PM me if you'd like to continue a debate, but this is detracting from the issue at hand, I feel.

[Blade]

No we haven't left the building. We just realize that just as you have your opinion, we have ours. I realized before I ever posted in this thread that NOBODY would ever, change the minds of those who think the Confederate Flag is racist, just as with any other prejudice, profiling or assumption. When your mind is set it is set, so believe or feel what you will. Hope no one is still watching The Dukes of Hazard reruns.......

[suebee]

No we haven't left the building. We just realize that just as you have your opinion, we have ours. I realized before I ever posted in this thread that NOBODY would ever, change the minds of those who think the Confederate Flag is racist, just as with any other prejudice, profiling or assumption. When your mind is set it is set, so believe or feel what you will. Hope no one is still watching The Dukes of Hazard reruns.......

Blade, I think you've missed the point that MOST people made: a flag is a flag. But this particular flag has been adopted by groups who have irrepairably linked it to intolerance and hate. I think the point that Linus and others made about the swastika originally being a peace symbol - but is now probably THE symbol most associated with racism in the world - is a good comparison.

What do you think of that? Do you think that the fear that the confederate flag instills in the hearts of our brothers and sisters makes it worthwhile reconsidering what it means NOW?

[TIMBERWOLF]

Assumptions are like assholes, every ones got one. Blow the flags down, every flag cause behind any flag you will find injustice of one sort or another. Treason?An attempt to split the countries? There were only a few states involved not countries. There again this might help you...
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001248.html
edited to add:
If I see that flag, I ALWAYS assume (and nothing will ever change this assumption) the person displaying it IS a racist, bigoted, homophobic, sexist asshole who does not deserve to be a citizen of this country. There is no justification for displaying that flag.
I really disagree with you, but like you said ,it doesn't matter because you will ALWAYS assume,(and nothing will every change this assumption).
My father flew that Southern White Cross flag when my mother died as respect for her ,yes she was a southerner. BUT to Assume that my father is a racist,bigoted,homophobic sexist asshole tells me you sure don't know people or shit .
My father is POC(Penobscot Indian) he served over 22 years in the US Navy(with all gold slashes if you know anything about that)he accepts me and my partner(a woman) ,he taught us that it didn't matter who you were you could do anything you wanted to.He taught me to do concrete work and block walls, wood working,my brother taught me how to work on cars. My parents best friends who ARE a(black and white couple) also are my kids Godparents, So when you talk like you know every one and everything think about how you feel YOUR Assumptions are right when your dead wrong.
TIMBER

[Jackhammer]

Admin speaking:

I know things get heated and passionate, but please ya'all try not to get personal with each other.

Keep it on a healthy debate level.

Take a snack break if needed :awww:


They were out of Diet Coke in the machine today at my wifes work. For the love of God don't make her come in here.

[dreadgeek]

There was a question put out on the table that I haven't seen an answer to. I'll recap it: Let's take it as read that the Confederate flag is a symbol for *white* Southern values. I put that very deliberately because the way the Confederate flag was flown when I was born (1967) and the Confederate flag my parents grew up seeing flown (b. 1922) in Alabama and Louisiana didn't stand for any Southern values that included blacks as *people*. I'm not talking about slavery, I'm talking about history that is *still* in the living memory of members of my family. So what are these values that are being celebrated. In answering, please let's not pretend that this flag is about the values of ALL Southerners because it's most manifestly not. My family is Southern, we are anchored in the South, and as far as I am aware not a single member of my family has EVER flown a Confederate flag nor would anyone do so. We are all too painfully aware that, certainly for our parents (born between 1910 and 1928 or so) and for most of my first cousins (born between 1940 and 1967), that symbol was about us being second-class citizens the males of which had lives that weren't worth the paper their birth certificates were written on if they should do something to make a white woman think/perceive/imagine that she had been approached inappropriately. So, if it is Southern values what are these values that *white* Southerners have that black Southerners do not have since we are implicitly (if not explicitly) excluded by this symbol?

I've *yet* to see an answer to this question.

Btw. let's put slavery aside for the moment. Am I to understand that slavery was the ONLY significant thing to happen in the South that was racially charged? Because it seems to me that the far more relevant issue is Jim Crow. Now, before anyone starts claiming "The North has (or had) racists too!" I'm not claiming that racism is or was solely the province of southerners. However, it is instructive to note that my parents were born in 1922 but NEVER cast a vote in the South. They cast their first votes in 1968, AFTER we had left the South. Had I been married in 1967 (as opposed to born in that year) and had we stayed in the South, my marriage would have been illegal since I was married to a white person. By the time that Loving v. Virginia was heard before the Supreme court, all the states EXCEPTING the Southern ones had scrapped their anti-miscegenation laws. People keep bringing up slavery because that's the *easy* one to disown. No one is descended form slave-holders, no one you know kept slaves and you didn't keep slaves so everyone can toss that aside. Segregation and its defenders, on the other hand, is a bit more difficult.

You see, while its easy to disown the relatives who might have been slave holders, it's a tiny bit more difficult to pretend that relatives who, say, 45 years ago were committed to the idea that my sister and I should never sit in the same classroom as you did. That's the more relevant phenomena to my mind.

Do I think that the Confederate flag is racist? Yes. I'll close with this brief anecdote. On one of our yearly drives form California to Louisiana and Alabama, we stopped for gas in Mississippi. The gas station had a Confederate flag flying proudly. This pimply faced kid in a baseball cap with a Confederate flag came out to pump our gas, saw my father and said "what you want here *boy*". I was about 10 or 11 which meant my father was in his mid-fifties. By this time he had two master's and a PhD and he had to TAKE IT when this scraggly looking kid called him boy in front of his wife and daughters BECAUSE his wife and daughters were in the car. The pain on his face was intense because he wanted to tell this kid about himself but he couldn't. He paid for the gas and we drove off. The image of the Confederate flag is burned into my brain and I will forever associate it with a culture where a 15 year old kid can call a man nearly five decades his junior 'boy'.

You can celebrate Southern culture by flying that flag from here until doomsday, understand that the culture I hear being advertised is as much the unpleasant one that everyone likes to pretend either didn't happen or couldn't have been all that bad as much as it is the mythical Southern culture people like to talk about where it wasn't all that bad.

Cheers
Aj

[Write14u]

personally i find both flags menacing

my points are definitely on target to the topic of the thread and i think you are deflecting by trying to call our conversation distracting *shrugs* i am used to that from people who are in denial

take care...no hard feelings

What might I be in denial about Weatherboi? Please, do enlighten me.

I'm in denial because I find it unfathomable to ascribe meaning to a flag BEFORE it was even used?

By all means, carry on with our debate, even if you and I are the only two who seem locked into this one bit of minutiae. Show to me then where the thousands of Southerners were confirmed racists simply because they sported a battle flag that differientiated them from the Union army. Creating a flag to keep your own forces from shooting at your *ss doesn't exactly make you a racist.

Were there racists behind the creation of the battle flag? In all likelihood, yes.
Does that make that piece of cloth racist before it was used in a terrorizing manner? Not even close.

[weatherboi]

You are in denial about the fact that this flag was a symbol of hate from the time of its inception. From the time they decided to design a flag that would represent the south which was fighting to oppress is the time that flag became a symbol of hate. I think it is a slap in the face of all POC to deny that flags symbolic hateful exsistence was born at its inception. Your view point and others aids in minimizing the racist times before the kkk and other idiot troops got their hands on it. I can't believe you dont see that!!!

What might I be in denial about Weatherboi? Please, do enlighten me.

I'm in denial because I find it unfathomable to ascribe meaning to a flag BEFORE it was even used?

By all means, carry on with our debate, even if you and I are the only two who seem locked into this one bit of minutiae. Show to me then where the thousands of Southerners were confirmed racists simply because they sported a battle flag that differientiated them from the Union army. Creating a flag to keep your own forces from shooting at your *ss doesn't exactly make you a racist.

Were there racists behind the creation of the battle flag? In all likelihood, yes.
Does that make that piece of cloth racist before it was used in a terrorizing manner? Not even close.

[Medusa]

And to add to AJ's wonderful post:

It was right here in Little Rock, Arkansas (home of the Reunion) that the "Little Rock 9" made history in 1957 merely by TRYING TO ATTEND SCHOOL.

Anyone who attends the Reunion will be able to walk the actual steps of Central High School where folks like Daisy Bates and Ernest Green were spat upon, called names, and threatened with lynching for merely showing up to walk through the doors.

Ernest Green was the first African American to EVER graduate from Central High School.

This wasn't back in the 1800's. This was 1957.

I want to ask every single person reading this thread who thinks that the Confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism to think about what a huge, swinging ballsack of privilege it must take to "proudly" display a flag that symbolizes death, pain, discrimination, and flat-out HATRED to so many people. People right here on this website.

Southern Pride doesn't have to come at another person's expense.

[QueenofQueens]

The North has arrogance. The reason some purveyors of cultural arrogance in the north don't think of themselves as separate and assert their regional pride is that they are hegemonic. They think that they define what it is to be American, so they don't need to establish identity. They think that everyone should be and wants to be just like them. They assume that failure to be like them is, in fact, a failure.

Southern cultural products, however, tend to face the truth of their lives. They do not romanticize or apologize. They face class. They face race. They face religion and failure. They face violence and loss of innocence. They are ahead of us in many ways because they spent so much time behind us -- poor, rural, neglected, denigrated.


These two paragraphs clearly illustrate the big, big, problem I have with regional pride. ANY regional pride.
Making sweeping assessments of people's capacity for introspection and romanticizing one region's traditions over another (especially in a country with as bloody a collective history as the U.S.) seems really myopic to me.

Last I knew, the capacity for reflection was a human trait, same as arrogance, and not assignable by region. These types of assigned generalizations are divisive and can quite easily lead to violence against that which is perceived as "other".


I see a baby going out with the bathwater.

Isn't regional pride international? Don't people maintain their regional pride when they go to other countries from the USA or, possibly more importantly,come from other countries to the USA?

I feel this statement as a face value generality is impoverishing to the diversity of the USA.


Odarlin, you're misreading my post and conflating regional pride with cultural or ethnic pride. Regional pride is based upon little more than presumed territorial rights (usually exerted by a power wielding group over a group more economically or politically vulnerable for whatever reason). In extreme cases regional pride can blossom into Nationalism. Nationalism leads to abhorrent practices such as ethnic cleansing.
I will not placate nor endorse the notion that because we were born on a particular patch of ground we are imbued with a heritage or culture. The notion is to me, simply absurd.
Certainly we are all products of our environments and our upbringing, but hopefully as thinking people we are able to critically think about the factors that contribute to our humanity and not just mindlessly cleave to them because of something as arbitrary as our geographical entrance point on this planet.
There are things about me that are distinctly Northeastern, but that is not the sum total of me as a person. Nor do I wrap bagels, pizza and the "F' word around me like a warm blanket of tradition. Though they all three are fucking delicious.

[Write14u]

You are in denial about the fact that this flag was a symbol of hate from the time of its inception. From the time they decided to design a flag that would represent the south which was fighting to oppress is the time that flag became a symbol of hate. I think it is a slap in the face of all POC to deny that flags symbolic hateful exsistence was born at its inception. Your view point and others aids in minimizing the racist times before the kkk and other idiot troops got their hands on it. I can't believe you dont see that!!!

And this is why I quit posting, up until you said I was in denial. You and I will not agree on this.

A piece of cloth is a piece of cloth -- UNTIL someone gives it meaning. As AJ so eloquently put it, this piece of cloth invokes terror and fear and disgust, among other things, in POC. And I concur with that. I think it's a vile symbol.
However, when it was first used, it was used in the battlefield. It was used to differentiate troops. Nothing more. Regardless of whether some or even all of the troops fighting were racist, that flag didn't represent it until it was used to terrorize POC. And quite frankly, the soldiers were too busy fighting to terrorize at that point. That piece of cloth became more and more vile as more and more atrocities were committed while it was flying, particularly during the Jim Crow era.

I'm not minimizing existing racism at all. Simply saying one piece of cloth wasn't born full-fledged as a symbol of that racism. It would not be viewed as the current racist symbol it is had it not been used while atrocities were commited -- and I'm not talking about the ones on the battlefield.

As you put it: I can't believe you don't see that.

No inanimate object is inherently good or evil.
Nothing is inherently evil at its birth.

I no longer wish to discuss this point with you any longer in this thread since a) both of us *do* agree that the flag *IS* a symbol of hatred and racism (the main point of this thread) and b) neither of us will agree with the other on that one little point. So please do not call me out or address me in any further posts. As I said before, feel free to send me anything you feel backs up your point via PM. I don't mind a spirited and non-personal discussion. But, quite frankly, if anyone other than you or I were interested in this one point, they would have jumped into the fray by now. Since they haven't, we *are* detracting from the main course of discussion.

[weatherboi]

Oy Vey brother your the only one with that opinion...the posts speak for themselves. I have only been kindly responding to your posts directed towards me. Sheesh

:nixon:


And this is why I quit posting, up until you said I was in denial. You and I will not agree on this.

A piece of cloth is a piece of cloth -- UNTIL someone gives it meaning. As AJ so eloquently put it, this piece of cloth invokes terror and fear and disgust, among other things, in POC. And I concur with that. I think it's a vile symbol.
However, when it was first used, it was used in the battlefield. It was used to differentiate troops. Nothing more. Regardless of whether some or even all of the troops fighting were racist, that flag didn't represent it until it was used to terrorize POC. And quite frankly, the soldiers were too busy fighting to terrorize at that point. That piece of cloth became more and more vile as more and more atrocities were committed while it was flying, particularly during the Jim Crow era.

I'm not minimizing existing racism at all. Simply saying one piece of cloth wasn't born full-fledged as a symbol of that racism. It would not be viewed as the current racist symbol it is had it not been used while atrocities were commited -- and I'm not talking about the ones on the battlefield.

As you put it: I can't believe you don't see that.

No inanimate object is inherently good or evil.
Nothing is inherently evil at its birth.

I no longer wish to discuss this point with you any longer in this thread since a) both of us *do* agree that the flag *IS* a symbol of hatred and racism (the main point of this thread) and b) neither of us will agree with the other on that one little point. So please do not call me out or address me in any further posts. As I said before, feel free to send me anything you feel backs up your point via PM. I don't mind a spirited and non-personal discussion. But, quite frankly, if anyone other than you or I were interested in this one point, they would have jumped into the fray by now. Since they haven't, we *are* detracting from the main course of discussion.

[Write14u]

Oy Vey brother your the only one with that opinion...the posts speak for themselves. I have only been kindly responding to your posts directed towards me. Sheesh

:nixon:

Weather, you're the only one with your opinion, so kindly stop responding to me as I asked. Sheesh.

[Odarlin]

Odarlin, you're misreading my post and conflating regional pride with cultural or ethnic pride. Regional pride is based upon little more than presumed territorial rights (usually exerted by a power wielding group over a group more economically or politically vulnerable for whatever reason). In extreme cases regional pride can blossom into Nationalism. Nationalism leads to abhorrent practices such as ethnic cleansing.
I will not placate nor endorse the notion that because we were born on a particular patch of ground we are imbued with a heritage or culture. The notion is to me, simply absurd.
Certainly we are all products of our environments and our upbringing, but hopefully as thinking people we are able to critically think about the factors that contribute to our humanity and not just mindlessly cleave to them because of something as arbitrary as our geographical entrance point on this planet.
There are things about me that are distinctly Northeastern, but that is not the sum total of me as a person. Nor do I wrap bagels, pizza and the "F' word around me like a warm blanket of tradition. Though they all three are fucking delicious.


You here state again that you do not endorse regional pride. This is specifically what I addressed. I think I can conclude from your reference to ethnic and cultural pride in this post that you view ethnic and cultural pride as not only separate but unrelated to region. I don’t believe that was a clear inference previously. That certainly clarifies your position.

Rather than me conflating anything, It appears that I happen to disagree with you on your position of the existence of a relationship between culture and region as well as the understanding of what regional pride is. What you are talking about I hear as hatred, corruption, insane political power mongering, bigotry and genocide; not the relationship between human being and their birthplace, their great grandparents birthplace or their adopted home.

That you experience no strong personal sense of kinship with the actual patch of land you were born to does not negate the relationship some others may have with their dirt. I feel strongly that physical environment can be quite profound in shaping both an individual and residing, or once residing culture. Having a sense of connection to a region promotes stewardship at it’s better moments.

[Odarlin]

To answer the question concerning the Union Jack directly:

Martina said this in a post somewhere, loosely, 'flying the Union Jack creates the effect of an all white environment. ‘

Let’s add particular openly expressed cultural, ethnic, religious and sexual/gender identification to what isn’t there. And that environment is based on a historically validated trepidation of personal safety of life, limb and dignity.

I don’t see who wins in that.

I am not going to go out of my way to be there and if I am there I am there because I am white and no one would think I am gay unless I tell them. I don’t have tredidation in my bones that something could happen at any moment.

Lack of bone fear about my color in this circumstance would be white privilege. I lose in that.

[Apocalipstic]

To be clear...

The "Union Jack" is the flag of the United Kingdom consisting of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The "Southern Cross" is what most people refer to to as the "Confederate" or "Rebel" flag.

We are discussing the "Southern Cross."

I don't want to post pictures, they can be upsetting on this subject matter.

[suebee]

To be clear...

The "Union Jack" is the flag of the United Kingdom consisting of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The "Southern Cross" is what most people refer to to as the "Confederate" or "Rebel" flag.

We are discussing the "Southern Cross."

I don't want to post pictures, they can be upsetting on this subject matter.


Was the reference to the Union Jack a mistake? I was puzzled by that post.

[Apocalipstic]

Was the reference to the Union Jack a mistake? I was puzzled by that post.

I am not sure, the "Union Jack" has been mentioned a couple of times in the thread and I just wanted to make sure we were clear that we are discussing the "Rebel" flag and not the flag of the UK.

It's confusing because there are so many flags that look pretty similar in addition to there being several actual Confederate Flags.

Likely a mistake, but just making sure :).

[dreadgeek]

Slavery existed and still does exist in many nations in the world today. It's never been just a Northern/Southern thing. Its true that because of our history rather right or wrong, the Southern Cross flag has been the bunt of the White Supremacy aspiration of trying to control hatred,racialism,just as Hitler tried with the swastika with a symbol of peace. And I don't know of anyone posting here that hasn't heard or knew what most people think about either symbol. What is trying to be said is that maybe the Southern Cross flag means different things to people not just about hatred or racialism. Like we can agree to disagree on what it means to the individual, but it still comes down to the individual,not what you say or what they say. And really who's business is it what an individual thinks,whether they are right or wrong.
Our Rainbow flag we wave so proudly, can bring anger, resentment and loath to those that don't believe in "our" cause,and I can tell you being Butch that I am discriminated against because of the way I look.
No one has all the answers or have walked a mile in someone elses shoes or moccasins.
TIMBER


Timber:

What does the Southern Cross flag mean? What are these values that are being celebrated and, given that this flag means something VERY different to Southern blacks than it does to Southern whites, what values is is that the latter group possesses and are symbolized by this flag that the former group doesn't possess? The Southern Cross may be a sign of Southern Pride but it isn't Southern Pride as many *black* Southerners might feel that emotion. Are these black Southerners not real Southerners or are there values symbolized by this flag that black Southerners don't possess? As I said last night, the Southern Cross implicitly excludes blacks (when it doesn't explicitly exclude them).

It might be helpful if someone could explain these values that the Southern Cross celebrates and explain how black Southerners, who are not represented by that symbol, do not share those values. In this it would do no good to suggest that, for instance, the Southern Cross represents ALL Southerners because it most manifestly does not. It would be like maintaining that the swastika, as used in Germany in the 30's and 40's, represented the values of ALL Germans even the Jewish ones. It didn't.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

AJ, I want to thank you for putting into perspective what we have been trying to say. You are most eloquent. :)

[Apocalipstic]

Timber:

What does the Southern Cross flag mean? What are these values that are being celebrated and, given that this flag means something VERY different to Southern blacks than it does to Southern whites, what values is is that the latter group possesses and are symbolized by this flag that the former group doesn't possess? The Southern Cross may be a sign of Southern Pride but it isn't Southern Pride as many *black* Southerners might feel that emotion. Are these black Southerners not real Southerners or are there values symbolized by this flag that black Southerners don't possess? As I said last night, the Southern Cross implicitly excludes blacks (when it doesn't explicitly exclude them).

It might be helpful if someone could explain these values that the Southern Cross celebrates and explain how black Southerners, who are not represented by that symbol, do not share those values. In this it would do no good to suggest that, for instance, the Southern Cross represents ALL Southerners because it most manifestly does not. It would be like maintaining that the swastika, as used in Germany in the 30's and 40's, represented the values of ALL Germans even the Jewish ones. It didn't.

Cheers
Aj

Also, Southern Jews, Catholics, and Gay people are targeted by White Supremacist groups.

[weatherboi]

Write14u- and anybody else that may care-
:deepthoughts:
How am I supposed to quit responding to you when you keep coming in and responding back? I mean you just want me to lay down and let you have the last word on a subject I am passionate about?

You asked me in an earlier post to continue in PM. I won't PM you cause well I don't know you like that and I feel if we can't debate something publically then what is the point.

See...I think you and I are talking about something very relavent.

Here is the question...if you do believe the rebel flag is a symbol of hate then how many of us believe it wasnt adopted for that purpose until the idiot troops got a hold of it or how many of us believe it was a symbol born from hatred??

I personally believe it was born from hate and is a symbol that has evolved to what it is today. I personally feel for myself that if i were to deny that I would be silencing generations of people that were victimized.

I am not the only person that feels this way. I have friends and family from all walks of life that believe the original battlefield flag was born from hate.


Weather, you're the only one with your opinion, so kindly stop responding to me as I asked. Sheesh.

[Medusa]

I would like to ask folks who don't think the Confederate Flag/Southern Cross flag is racist if they also don't think that the Nazi Swastika flag is racist?

[The_Lady_Snow]

On the dash site, there was a conversation happening about Studs and Aggresives, it became heated and it got ugly.. You could say that even then I was loud, full of fuck you's and passionate about what I was speaking of.. I ruffled one to many feathers and then some of those turkeys left me this:

http://www.burkhartstudios.com/burkhart/photos/klan/trailer_trash.jpg

There was a lil message that said:

See you around your neck of the woods...

Some of you are friends with this particular couple, how I felt when I seen this picture?

I can tell you this, I did not feel included in that Southern Pride you all speak of when defending these symbols, I did not get excited at the thought that maybe just maybe cause one never knows that I may just get a visit...

I certainly did not feel any form of pride from this... This and the confederate flag strike up fear, worry, anger, resentment, anger I could go on and on... I sho don't wanna get up and turn on some Lynyrd Skynyrd and dance a jig..

I can't and never will understand those who want to negate generations of people who were enslaved, oppressed, seperated from family etc etc.. It's dismissive and such a priveleged thing to do.. I rarely go home, I went to visit the boy recently, and as we discussed this thread a commercial came on, for the local news.

"Clan rally to be held on.."

My head shot up and I looked at Grant and I was like really?? We both looked at one another, shook our head and well let's just say as cold as it is here I was ready to leave the South. I am fully aware these groups are everywhere, but in Alabama and those surrounding states, shit is pretty fucking scary...

[dreadgeek]

On the dash site, there was a conversation happening about Studs and Aggresives, it became heated and it got ugly.. You could say that even then I was loud, full of fuck you's and passionate about what I was speaking of.. I ruffled one to many feathers and then some of those turkeys left me this:

http://www.burkhartstudios.com/burkhart/photos/klan/trailer_trash.jpg

There was a lil message that said:

See you around your neck of the woods...


So much for 'post-racial'. I *want* to say that I'm shocked. I *want* to say that I can't believe that someone would post this to you. I *want* to say those things but I can't say them because I'm neither shocked nor am I surprised.



I can tell you this, I did not feel included in that Southern Pride you all speak of when defending these symbols, I did not get excited at the thought that maybe just maybe cause one never knows that I may just get a visit...

I certainly did not feel any form of pride from this... This and the confederate flag strike up fear, worry, anger, resentment, anger I could go on and on... I sho don't wanna get up and turn on some Lynyrd Skynyrd and dance a jig..

I can't and never will understand those who want to negate generations of people who were enslaved, oppressed, seperated from family etc etc.. It's dismissive and such a priveleged thing to do.. I rarely go home, I went to visit the boy recently, and as we discussed this thread a commercial came on, for the local news.


I almost never go back to Alabama or Louisiana. I haven't been to either state in over a decade and don't see that changing anytime soon. I want to echo something you said above. When I see a Confederate flag on a house (one of my old neighbors here in Portland flew one) I rush past. If I see a Confederate flag on a truck, I tense up. If I hear a rebel yell, I immediately start looking for the exits!

Cheers
Aj

[TIMBERWOLF]

Timber:

What does the Southern Cross flag mean? What are these values that are being celebrated and, given that this flag means something VERY different to Southern blacks than it does to Southern whites, what values is is that the latter group possesses and are symbolized by this flag that the former group doesn't possess? The Southern Cross may be a sign of Southern Pride but it isn't Southern Pride as many *black* Southerners might feel that emotion. Are these black Southerners not real Southerners or are there values symbolized by this flag that black Southerners don't possess? As I said last night, the Southern Cross implicitly excludes blacks (when it doesn't explicitly exclude them).

It might be helpful if someone could explain these values that the Southern Cross celebrates and explain how black Southerners, who are not represented by that symbol, do not share those values. In this it would do no good to suggest that, for instance, the Southern Cross represents ALL Southerners because it most manifestly does not. It would be like maintaining that the swastika, as used in Germany in the 30's and 40's, represented the values of ALL Germans even the Jewish ones. It didn't.

Cheers
Aj
Maybe Aj that my mother was proud of being from Mississippi(that has the southern Cross in this flag),maybe she was proud that her family wasn't racist but accepting even back in the old day when her family worked along with the blacks that lived with them. Maybe my mom had a different in site to who people are for who they were.Maybe the stories came to her with fighting for their land from her grandfather or his grandfather or?Yes my mothers family was from Alabama and before there, from France. All I can tell you is that there wasn't a racist ,bigoted sexist homophobic bone in my parents body and they didn't teach it either.Maybe it was when she married a black cajun and my half brother was born.When my mother knew she was dying she asked my dad to raise the flag and he did so as her request upon her passing.It is a flag that bring controversy,terror and fear into some hearts,but it is what you give it,it is a piece of material.
Now I have stood my stance and explained why and what fore it meant to our family. I will no longer debate this topic with anyone from here on in. This is what it MEANT to us.
TIMBER
I forgot to say my dad adopted my brother and it wasn't until 1965 when my brother was getting married did I find out that my brother was my half brother, we weren't raised that way.His name is Robert Lee Ramsey(our last name)

[The_Lady_Snow]

Maybe Aj that my mother was proud of being from Mississippi(that has the southern Cross in this flag),maybe she was proud that her family wasn't racist but accepting even back in the old day when her family worked along with the blacks that lived with them. Maybe my mom had a different in site to who people are for who they were.Maybe the stories came to her with fighting for their land from her grandfather or his grandfather or?Yes my mothers family was from Alabama and before there, from France. All I can tell you is that there wasn't a racist ,bigoted sexist homophobic bone in my parents body and they didn't teach it either.Maybe it was when she married a black cajun and my half brother was born.When my mother knew she was dying she asked my dad to raise the flag and he did so as her request upon her passing.It is a flag that bring controversy,terror and fear into some hearts,but it is what you give it,it is a piece of material.
Now I have stood my stance and explained why and what fore it meant to our family. I will no longer debate this topic with anyone from here on in. This is what it MEANT to us.
TIMBER



So why not just fly the state flag they were from?? Why the flag that drives fear, tension and anger straight to the very core of many people? I too can work alongside of many people, do I watch or let anyone opress them, or treat them not the same as me?

Fuck no, perhaps that is the difference.. Once again why why why pick something that symbolizes such ugliness?

Curious I am.. and why can't anybody answer AJ's question :|

[christie]

Timber:

What does the Southern Cross flag mean? What are these values that are being celebrated and, given that this flag means something VERY different to Southern blacks than it does to Southern whites, what values is is that the latter group possesses and are symbolized by this flag that the former group doesn't possess? The Southern Cross may be a sign of Southern Pride but it isn't Southern Pride as many *black* Southerners might feel that emotion. Are these black Southerners not real Southerners or are there values symbolized by this flag that black Southerners don't possess? As I said last night, the Southern Cross implicitly excludes blacks (when it doesn't explicitly exclude them).

It might be helpful if someone could explain these values that the Southern Cross celebrates and explain how black Southerners, who are not represented by that symbol, do not share those values. In this it would do no good to suggest that, for instance, the Southern Cross represents ALL Southerners because it most manifestly does not. It would be like maintaining that the swastika, as used in Germany in the 30's and 40's, represented the values of ALL Germans even the Jewish ones. It didn't.

Cheers
Aj


AJ –

One of the things that I think its important to remember about the many hate groups who embrace the Southern Cross flag is that they aren’t selective in their hate and only hate races other than white, but that they also hate queers. As one of those queers, I can tell you that I agree that the very sight of this flag doesn’t evoke a good reaction from me. I become hyperaware of my surroundings and my personal safety. Who knows, the person flying it might be one of the two groups I will discuss below, but my gut reaction is that its being flown out of hatred and bigotry.

I know that in this post you clearly asked Timber what the flag meant to him(hym/hyr?) and in the context of the mother’s funeral. Here are a couple of interesting pieces of information I found about Southern folks who embrace the Southern Cross flag in relation to a celebration of their family history and lineage:

United Daughters of the Confederacy - http://www.hqudc.org/

I am reposting part of the information posted on their site:

Why I Am a Daughter of the Confederacy

I am a Daughter of the Confederacy because I was born a Daughter of the Confederacy. A part of my heritage was that I came into this world with the blood of a soldier in my veins...a soldier who may have had nothing more to leave behind to me and to those who come after me except in heritage...a heritage so rich in honor and glory that it far surpasses any material wealth that could be mine. But it is mine, to cherish, to nurture and to make grace, and to pass along to those yet to come. I am, therefore, a Daughter of the Confederacy because it is my birthright.

I am a Daughter of the Confederacy because I have an obligation to perform. Like the man in the Bible, I was given a talent and it is my duty to do something about it. That is why I've joined a group of ladies whose birthright is the same as mine...an organization which has for its purpose the continuance and furtherance of the true history of the South and the ideals of southern womanhood as embodied in its Constitution.

I am a member of The United Daughters of the Confederacy because I feel it would greatly please my ancestor to know that I am a member. It would please him to know that I appreciate what he did and delight his soldier love to know that I do not consider the cause which he held so dear to be lost or forgotten. Rather, I am extremely proud of the fact that he was a part of it and was numbered among some of the greatest and bravest men which any such cause ever produced.

I am a Daughter of the Confederacy because I can no more help being a Daughter of the Confederacy than I can help being an American, and I feel that I was greatly favored by inheriting a birthright for both.

Written by Mary Nowlin Moon (Mrs. John)
A member of Kirkwood Otey Chapter 10, Lynchburg, Virginia
First read at a Chapter meeting on June 2, 1915

In further reading on their site, you can find the information on the Southern Cross of Honor. The medal has the Southern Cross insignia prominent and they were bestowed on veterans of the Civil War.

Today, the UDC bestows the Crosses of Military Service and Medals as an extension of the Southern Cross of Honor. The recipients are active or veterans of US Military Service. In clicking on the associated links in their content, the pictures displayed of the CMSM do include the main portion of the Southern Cross.

I really have a hard time after reading about the UDC and calling the Virginia Historical Society to inquire as to the purpose of the UDC that any of the ladies who are committed to the preservation of their history and lineage belong to any of the hate groups we associate the Southern Cross flag with. They might belong to the Red Hat Society or a bridge club, but I don’t think you are going to find them lining up to don sheets and march in a Klan rally.

The Sons of the Confederate Veterans also use the Southern Cross in their insignia. I will admit that these fellas make my radar go up slightly – especially if you read the Heritage Defense Violations. I have known some members of SCV and to them, its more about celebrating their lineage and their ancestors’ commitment to fighting for what they believed in (no matter how wrong it is today). I can say that the persons I am familiar with had no affiliation with any hate group and never displayed racial or homophobic behaviors in my presence.

To answer your question, I think like with a great number of things, symbols and their meanings are very personal. The problem I have with how we have gone about this debate is that there seems no room of acceptance of any view that isn’t “its wrong and it is racism.” To me, that is silencing.

Do you think that the black Southerners who served in the Civil War under this flag felt it was racism and exclusionary? I did find this article in a Murfreesboro, TN paper and it has given me some food for thought:

http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=9134

It is interesting to me that the author thanks an SVC member for assisting with the research.

Christie

[dreadgeek]

I really have a hard time after reading about the UDC and calling the Virginia Historical Society to inquire as to the purpose of the UDC that any of the ladies who are committed to the preservation of their history and lineage belong to any of the hate groups we associate the Southern Cross flag with. They might belong to the Red Hat Society or a bridge club, but I don’t think you are going to find them lining up to don sheets and march in a Klan rally.


I pulled this paragraph out because I think it illustrates one of the problems we have in talking about racism. What has happened, over the last 50 years or so, is that racism has become a shorthand for "what the Klan does". Therefore, in order to not be racist ALL you need do is avoid using the n-word (or at least avoid using it in polite company) and not be a member of the Klan. If you can manage that (and most people can) then nothing else one does can be considered racist. Because of this construction one can witness the hilarious mental gymnastics of someone saying that they would disown (or worse) their daughter or son if they were to date a black person but they aren't a racist. We have the spectacle of 'the black friend' who, interestingly, always appears to agree with whatever statement is being made by the white speaker no matter how racist it might seem. So is the UDC a hate-group? No. Do I think that anyone who belongs to the UDC *hates* blacks? No.

Interesting word 'hate'. It invokes an activeness, a forward-leaning acting out of opinion that is easy to deny. Thus, we can have various preachers from various evangelical denominations claiming that they don't *hate* gay people, they simply feel that we shouldn't be able to get married and/or that our employers should be able to fire us from being gay. But they don't *hate* us. I think a more useful question inquires into whether or not there are feelings of superiority involved. This has the benefit of capturing a lot of passive mental attitudes that are not forward-leaning enough to be encapsulated in the verb 'to hate'. For example, when I was growing up a family from South Carolina moved in across the street from us. I recall, when the boy of the family was maybe 9 and I was ten, he said "your family are the good blacks, not like all the rest". Now, R didn't *hate* us (our families became VERY close over the course of a decade) but at the time there was certainly a sentiment of superiority being expressed.



The Sons of the Confederate Veterans also use the Southern Cross in their insignia. I will admit that these fellas make my radar go up slightly – especially if you read the Heritage Defense Violations. I have known some members of SCV and to them, its more about celebrating their lineage and their ancestors’ commitment to fighting for what they believed in (no matter how wrong it is today). I can say that the persons I am familiar with had no affiliation with any hate group and never displayed racial or homophobic behaviors in my presence.


If they were fighting for what they believed then why not CLAIM that, out front, and take whatever (very well justified) heat may be the consequence. Confederates were fighting to 'maintain their way of life and culture' which, as it turns out, happened to involve my ancestors being considered property. Now, if that system was worth defending then SAY why it was worth defending.


Do you think that the black Southerners who served in the Civil War under this flag felt it was racism and exclusionary?

I think that the slaves who fought for the Confederacy were, well, not to put too fine a point on the matter, slaves. Let me rephrase that question in more contemporary terms. Were there Jews who built, for instance, armaments for Krupps (a major German weapons manufacturer at the time) were supporters of or in agreement with Nazi philosophy? Do you think that those Jews who did so, in work camps mind you, believed in and supported the Nazi cause or do you think that they were in camps and if they didn't work they could be shot (if they were lucky) or starve (if they weren't). I think that the black men who fought for the Confederacy did so either because they were told to, because they were under duress or because they were promised something (like better treatment) after the war. Do I believe that these black men thought that whites thought of them as equals? No. I think that these black men were VERY realistic about what whites thought of them. But imagine, now, that you are a slave and your owner (roll that one around in your mind for a moment)tells you that you and your family will be freed if ONLY you'll go and fight in the war. Would you do it? Of course you would. Are you a *volunteer* at that point? No, not in any meaningful sense of the term because there is coercion involved and just as a court of law will take into account any actions taken under duress (say a gun held to your head) we would be well-advised to take that under consideration.

Thanks for the response.

Cheers
Aj

[suebee]

I'd like to rephrase a question I asked a few pages back of those who hold the confederate flag dear as a symbol of their past: Is it worth cherishing a flag, EVEN if it is significant in a positive way to you personally, when for so many of our brothers and sisters it represents intolerance, prejudice and hate - when it has become a symbol of racism, antisemitism and homo-hatred? (I don't think "homophobia" says it strongly enough) What price would be TOO much to pay? A number of members have come on the thread and explained the significance of the flag to them personally, but I'd honestly like to know - would the hatred represented by the present pervasive use of the flag ever cause you to say "It's not worth displaying it because it now represents too much pain to others."?

P.S. Are you even in agreement that it now represents what I've outlined above?

[WhiteTigress]

Timber:

What does the Southern Cross flag mean? What are these values that are being celebrated and, given that this flag means something VERY different to Southern blacks than it does to Southern whites, what values is is that the latter group possesses and are symbolized by this flag that the former group doesn't possess? The Southern Cross may be a sign of Southern Pride but it isn't Southern Pride as many *black* Southerners might feel that emotion. Are these black Southerners not real Southerners or are there values symbolized by this flag that black Southerners don't possess? As I said last night, the Southern Cross implicitly excludes blacks (when it doesn't explicitly exclude them).


I would like to ask folks who don't think the Confederate Flag/Southern Cross flag is racist if they also don't think that the Nazi Swastika flag is racist?


-Snipped-
When my mother knew she was dying she asked my dad to raise the flag and he did so as her request upon her passing.
-Snipped-
Now I have stood my stance and explained why and what fore it meant to our family. I will no longer debate this topic with anyone from here on in. This is what it MEANT to us.


So why not just fly the state flag they were from??
Timber is my mate, and shi has clearly stated above that shi's not going to debate this issue any longer.

BUT...I will try to get the answer out to those who will listen to the simple answers here.

Timber isn't from the South.
Timber doesn't hold the Southern Cross dear to hir heart.
Timber's Mother WAS from the South.
Timber's Mother DID hold the Southern Cross dear to her heart, for her own personal reasons.
Timber's Mother requested that THAT flag fly in her honor.
Timber's Dad loved his wife enough to honor that request.
Timber's Dad isn't from the South.
Timber's Dad doesn't hold the Southern Cross dear to his heart.

Now, I ask that people quit trying to goad Timber into justifying why she supports this flag, because it's NOT that she supports this flag. She simply stated the one time in her life, that her family used it as a symbol of someone they loved.

WT

[christie]

I think that the slaves who fought for the Confederacy were, well, not to put too fine a point on the matter, slaves. Let me rephrase that question in more contemporary terms. Were there Jews who built, for instance, armaments for Krupps (a major German weapons manufacturer at the time)? Do you think that those Jews who did so, in work camps mind you, believed in and supported the Nazi cause or do you think that they were in camps and if they didn't work they could be shot (if they were lucky) or starve (if they weren't). I think that the black men who fought for the Confederacy did so either because they were told to, because they were under duress or because they were promised something (like better treatment) after the war. Do I believe that these black men thought that whites thought of them as equals? No. I think that these black men were VERY realistic about what whites thought of them. But imagine, now, that you are a slave and your owner (roll that one around in your mind for a moment)tells you that you and your family will be freed if ONLY you'll go and fight in the war. Would you do it? Of course you would. Are you a *volunteer* at that point? No, not in any meaningful sense of the term because there is coercion involved and just as a court of law will take into account any actions taken under duress (say a gun held to your head) we would be well-advised to take that under consideration.

Thanks for the response.



AJ - pardon the brevity, but I wanted to address this portion of your post before I dash off to a meeting...

I don't agree, and neither do many of the historians, that ALL black soldiers serving the confederate army were coerced or forced to do so. Here is a very interesting site and you will see that not ALL black persons feel as you do about the Southern Cross flag as illustrated on the site. In fact, this portion speaks to it being dishonorable to want to ban the Southern Cross flag and paint it racist:

The flap over the Confederate flag is not quite as simple as the nation's race experts make it. They want us to believe the flag is a symbol of racism. Yes, racists have used the Confederate flag, but racists have also used the Bible and the U.S. flag. Should we get rid of the Bible and lower the U.S. flag?

Black civil rights activists and their white liberal supporters who are attacking the Confederate flag have committed a deep, despicable dishonor to our patriotic black ancestors who marched, fought and died to protect their homeland from what they saw as Northern aggression. They don't deserve the dishonour.

The site address is here: http://www.phalange.com/black.htm

This passage, in particular, I felt bore repeating:

One never hears that the Blacks who served America during the Revolutionary war were forced to do so or that they betrayed their "Brothers" who were in bondage by fighting for thirteen states that at the time were all Slave States. The Blacks then were fighting for American Independence just as the Blacks in the Confederacy were fighting for Southern Independence. You can be sure that if we had won our bid for Independence from the tyrannical Yankee government the Southern Blacks today would be bragging on their ancestors who fought and served in Dixie's War for Independence. No doubt about it.

I will be back later to address the other point in your response. Check out the link I posted above - you might find a different take on why some, albeit it not me, choose to celebrate a symbol so universally associated with racsim.

Christie

[SuperFemme]

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default_graphics.asp

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default_graphics.asp


Yeah I can see how these would strike feelings of :love1:, and :cheer: and picnics at the park..:|

[Martina]

i get that the flag means some fairly innocuous things to many people. But do people flying it in spaces where POC are likely to be honestly not realize that it is perceived as a threat? If not, how can they not? If they do, why don't they care?